need stud service 4 newfoundland!
GOLDS...@webtv.net
she is 2 1/2yrs old. we lve in mass. get back to me ifu can help!
Ron Hardin
>
> hi! my name is joe, and i have a beautiful female newfoundland!
> she is 2 1/2yrs old. we lve in mass. get back to me ifu can help!
The best part is waiting for the flames.
--
Ron Hardin
rhha...@mindspring.com
On the internet, nobody knows you're a jerk.
GOLDS...@webtv.net
ignorance! but could you pease tell me what a flame is. and also, why am
i a jerk? did i do something wrong by wanting to breed my dog? so if you
would kindly respond and tell me what the hell your problem is, id
appreciate it!
TO...@dog-play.com
> hi! my name is joe, and i have a beautiful female newfoundland!
> she is 2 1/2yrs old. we lve in mass. get back to me ifu can help!
I'm sure she is just lovely, and I'm really glad you love her so much
that you think you should make more. Before you get your heart set on
it, however, I'd like you to take just a little time to consider some
information. From what is not in your post it looks very much like you
need to take some time out to learn more about what you are getting into.
I know that isn't what you want to hear, but what bad thing can happen if
you take the time to learn?
Take a deep breath, read all the way through, try not to take anything
personally, and try your best not to mentally argue until you've had a
chance to think about it.
Let me explain what it is about your announcement that suggests you have
more to learn. To start with your description of your dog as beautiful
speaks well of your relationship with her, but it doesn't provide the
critical information - the status of her hips and elbows, thyroid, eye,
heart. And by that I don't mean just a regular veterinary checkup, but
examination by the appropriate specialists to try to avoid passing on any
genetic health problems. An educated breeder would be providing an OFA
number, a CERF number, and assurances that thyroid tests had been done
and the heart examined by a board certified cardiologist.
Similarly nothing in your announcement defines what you want - other than
male Newfoundland. Somehow I don't think you had some secret plan to
entrap owners of male Newfoundlands into getting educated. I mean, sure
someone might decide not to put their requirements in just so when the
uneducated stud owner calls they can educate them, but I don't think that
is the case here. More likely you didn't demand OFA, CERF, thyroid and
heart testing because you didn't know enough to demand them. That means
the calls you are most likely to get are from (1) someone who doesn't
care, just wants to make bucks off their dog or (2) someone who just
doesn't know any better. If we are going to improve the genetic health
of our dogs the first step is to become educated and thoughtful in
breeding.
I'm also guessing that you may not be prepared for the realities of the
risks of breeding, pregnancy, whelping and rearing a litter. The bottom
line is that pregancy has always been the most hazardous of natural
conditions, and in nature many bitches die giving birth. Sadly man's
creation of breeds has made the situation worse. You should have set
aside $2,000 or so just for emergencies during whelping. That does not
include costs of x-rays and regular vet checkups during the course of the
pregancy.
You also have a breed that is difficult to place responsibly. Oh, people
will take the puppies. The hard part is going to be to find people who
will *keep* the puppies. Take a look at your lovely girl, give her a
hug. Now imagine one of her puppies, one of the one *you* helped bring
into the world. Imagine that puppy now 18 months old is now in the
animal shelter. Does the image of that pup ending up dead give you the
shivers? It does me. I'd rather that didn't happen. I don't think you
want it to happen wither. But do you know how to avoid that? And are
you prepared and able to house eight or so growing large dogs until you
can be assured the homes are right? Are you prepared to take back an
unwanted two year old to prevent it being killed in the shlter? What if
the reason that two year old is unwanted is because it has spent most of
its life in the backyard and it has NO house manners, no social skills
and tends to be aggressive?
A responsible breeder is just that. They take responsiblity for proper
placement and if the placement fails they continue to take responsiblity
for the dog. After all it is the breeders "fault" the dog exists in the
first place.
Notice that in all this I never said "don't breed." What I'm offering is
an opportunity to make a deliberate choice about what kind of breeder you
want to be. After you do the research you may decide that breeding is
more work and more risk than you are willing to take. Or you might decide
that you just want to make money off your dog and to h*ll with all the
health testing and concerns about the puppies (I'd guress that's
unlikely, but it happens). Or you might decide that *yes* you want to
breed but you are prepared to take the time and make the effort to do a
good job of it. At least if you have taken the time to research the
issues you will be making a *choice*. Since you asked *before* breeding
you get to take advantage of the experiences of those of us who didn't,
who made mistakes, and have nothing but regrets ever since.
Here is my breeder's ethics page
http://www.dog-play.com/ethics.html
Feel free to consider which points you disagree with and believe are
unimportant. The page also contains resources that will explain the
terms such as OFA, and CERF and books on breeding and genetics.
I'm not a breeder, I have three mixed breed neutered and spayed dogs, but
I still have books on breeding and genetics. If I can take the time to
learn . . . well I hope you will too.
Diane Blackman
http://www.dog-play.com/ http://www.dog-play.com/TOTE.html
"The nature of reinforcement and its timing and delivery are essential for
a dog trainer to master." "Smart Trainers -- Brilliant Dogs" by Janet
Lewis
Ron Hardin
No no no no, it's fine.
Flames are the insistent responses you will get telling you you're
a fool and an idiot for wanting to breed a dog. The newsgroup is
populated by hand-wringers and know-it-alls who will tell you this.
Every now and then somebody asks what you asked and the same thing
happens every time. It's like a Greek tragedy, or a computer that
makes the same bad chess move every game.
GOLDS...@webtv.net
jerk thing?
the reasoni want to breed her is because i want a male newfoundland too,
but dont want to pay 4 another! she cost me $1700, and worth every
penny, but cant afford to pay again! also, everyone in my family loves
her, and now want newfoundlands! so i can gaurentee at least 4 good
homes! oh, by the way, so he doesnt feel neglected, i should mention
about my other dog! i also have a 1 1/2 yr old male akita. hes great!
very good watch dog, instinctivly! both dogs are obedience school
graduates! well, have a good day!!!
Nancy Holmes or Nelson Ruffin
stud service to a good dog - (you wouldn't want to breed your girl to a bad
one!) with health clearances around $1000, getting the health clearances on
your dog that will make a stud dog owner interested in the breeding (maybe)
$300. Shots for pups and wormings for pups and mom a conservative $300.
Breeding your dog today (as an example) means pups will be born about a week
before thanksgiving. A normal litter will be about 9 pups maybe more or less
but figure on 9. I hope you have planned Zero away at the holidays time this
year for yourself and that you have saved vacation time to handle this
event.
The mom and pups will have to be indoors - I hope you have a 6x6 space you
can make potty proof and keep nice and warm for mom and pups and that you
won't mind cleaning it up about a zillion times a day to keep the odor of
birth and pups down to a tolerable level.
Your puppies will be ready to do at the earliest about mid to late January
when they are 8 weeks old. Nobody wants puppies then (not even relatives)
because of the weather (usually nasty for housebreaking) and the holiday
bills that are arriving. I hope you are prepared for housetraining 9 puppies
and keeping them clean - start scavenging for newspapers now - stealing from
recycle bins is advised. Plan on having lots of pups around until they may
be as old as 5-6 months - even if the relatives come through.
The of course there are food costs. When pregnant the mom will need extra
rations towards the end of her pregnancy of a high quality food but when
nursing she will need outrageous amounts fed frequently - which of course
means frequent potty trips for her or your tolerance in cleaning up potty
mistakes. Of course once you wean the pups the food costs will go up
dramatically....
I seriously suggest you go and talk to your girl's breeder and ask advice in
stud dog selection and health tests that need to be performed before a
breeding can take place. Also check your registration form and see if you
have a limited registration - if you do no one with a good dog will breed to
yours and the pups will not be registerable and won't be worth much.
I would guess if you have no complications a reserve fund of about $2000
should cover your expenses. With complications (such as a c-section) or a
dam who cannot for some reason care for the pups (mammary gland infection,
ecclampsia etc) add in at least another grand.
I'm not kidding - my dane had 12 pups that lived out of 14. She could not
feed them all. Goats milk supplements cost about $4 per gallon and they had
to be fed every two hours around the clock for the first three weeks. I
placed the last pup at 5 months old. And took back the first pup (owner
couldn't keep it) when it was 11 months old. Do plan on offering 100%
returnability else wonder where all the pups end up whenever you see one in
the pound.
If you really want another newf contact newf rescue (again your breeder
should be able to connect you) and offer one a home and or check
www.petfinder.org to find one to adopt. And spay your girl - she will lived
longer if you do.
Nancy
<GOLDS...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:12546-39...@storefull-177.iap.bryant.webtv.net...
Marla Belzowski
Here's some fuel for you...
Here's one I save for these types of occasions.
This is the real thing too, not an estimated cost (and I probably
understated a bunch of little things that I bought and just forgot about).
This covers my litter born in 1996.
The Real Cost of Raising a Litter.
If you realy think your girl is worth breeding,
find a way to prove she has something to offer
to the bred and then bred her to the BEST you
can! Accept no less.
Show her in the Conformation ring. It takes just a
little bit of training, but a whole lot of money and time
to finish that Champion title. Then you can say you have
a "Show Quality" dog and no one can question you.
Until then, you only have dog of untested against
the breed standard. Who knows, you could have the
next Best in Show at Westminster, but if you never try
to finish that "CH" title, you'll never get a shot at
the Garden.
Until then, get all the health certificates you can,
CERF, OFA (hips and elbows), Certificate for
normal heart rythyms, thyroid certificate,
etc, what ever is required by your respective
breed as all of them have different problems that
are more pressing than other breeds.
This is going to cost you somewhere in
the neighborhood of $300 - $800.
Of course your going to need to spend hours
researching your girl's bloodline so that you do
breed her to a dog that complements her both
phenotypically and genotypically. If you don't
know the difference between phenotypical and genotypical,
you are not ready to bred a dog. If you don't, you could
end up with growth and development problems
which could lead to undershot jaws and other "cosmetic"
problems that can have serious health related consequences.
If she won't make it in the conformation
ring get an obedience title, agility title, herding title,
tracking title, hunting title, something! On any breed,
is a real accomplishment, especially the higher titles.
The upper titles are not the easy things to finish by any means.
Cost $700 -$800 to finish each title, with training
classes included, assuming you finish in about 3
local shows.
Then you have something, and your pups have some
value for the potential they can bring to the effort to
improve the breed.
This way you can also make contact with other
owners in the "show dog world" that can
help you improve on any faults your girl has and
help guide prospective new puppy owners to you
when you have your litter. You have a shot at
breeding to a pointed dog or maybe even a bred
champion at that point.
The cost of raising a litter?
If you do it right, you rarely make any money.
Of course if you cut every corner with the only goal as to
make money, you probably pick up about $500 when
everything is over and done with, if everything
goes "PERFECT"(no emergency c-sections, no loosing the
Dam and hand feeding the pups, no serious infections..etc)
and you get every pup out of the house with nothing put into then,
like no shots at 6 weeks, no advertising, and no time spent in socializing
or working with the pups. If you break out that $500 into the amount of
time
you'll spend on the litter, you find you'll probably make less than $1.50
an hour.
You can make more working at a fast food joint than breeding puppies.
But then again, who in their right mind would want a pup raised like like
that, with no shots, cheepest food possible, no specialized health
certificates on the parents, right?
My last litter break down was as about like
follows:
I owned both the bitch and stud -- bought the bitch
for $3000 and bred the stud from a previous litter
-- his stud fee would have been $500, due to his
health clearances and titles.
SO cost for bitch only (no show cost
included)...
OFA - $80
CERF -$32
Thyroid test - $45
Pre-breeding exam (bitch) -- $85 burcellosis
test and VC
no stud fee for me this time but normal
stud fee $350 -$500 for a collie but it can be as high
as $1000 for the current top producing sire of all time.
Extra food while she was in whelp -- $140 (near
the due date she went from eating 3
1/2 cups of premium dog food to nearly 9 cups)
Newspapers for whelping materials $60.00
New paint for whelping box $15 (I had a whelping
box, but if you don't have one plan on
adding $50 for the wood and screws to build one)
Cleaning supplies for doing "poopy-puppy towles" - $25
After the pups were born, $65 vet house call to give oxi-tosan (sp?)
injection to make she didn't retain a plecenta.
Results: 8 puppies: 6 live puppies..two died within 24hrs..pretty normal..
for collies to lose a pup or two, they have to be kept 95 degrees F for the
first 3 days and slowly have the temp.
lowered in the whelping box or they just loose the will to live.
So you have to learn to deal with the loss of pups..it doesn't
get any easier the longer you breed. I cried for several days
afterwards....even though I swear everytime I have a litter I'm
not going to take heroic efforts to save fading pups, I always do....
Pace adds in National Breed Club magazine -- $350 one time!
Get appointment for eye checks NOW!
Send in registration papers --$35
Print up pedigrees in color for new owners -$20
Up until the pups were 4 weeks, things were
pretty quiet --just a lot of changing papers
everyday, cleaning the puppy towels, oh yes, my
bitch was now eating 10-11 cups of food a day
(add $160 in extra food)
...then it gets nuts
5 weeks worming -- $95
Pups start eating semi-solid food -- they go
through 40# in three days! eating up a total of
12-16 cups of food a day split into three times
a day, from 5 weeks to 8 weeks -- $320
Order collars and leashes for prospective owners
to take with the pups (nobody brings a leash
when they get a new puppy!) -- $55
Pups out, pups in, feed, potty, change papers,
pups out, pups in, feed, clean up, play,
socialize, feed, clean, in, out, in, out...
(pant pant pant....) oh...into work at 7 am
with 2 hours of sleep for the next 3-5 weeks.....
Screening puppy homes, screening puppy homes,
SCREEN PUPPY HOMES!
Long distance charges... $165
7 weeks - 1st shots $285
More laundry and a new x-pen to let the pups go
outside. --$100
Puppy toys -- $35
Puppy eye checks $20 a piece X 6 = $120
etc.etc.etc....
Are you seeing the trend here.
By the time I was done putting together my puppy
pack which includes a brush, long coat rake,
small bottle of Adam's flea and tick shampoo, 20
# bag of puppy food, $24.95 copy of Good Dogs,
Great Owners..by Brian Killcummins, folder with
all registration papers, shot records, feeding
instructions, eye check results, pet
contract..etc... I have more money wrapped up
into the pups than I'll ever get back.
Plus I SPAY OR NEUTER my pet pups at 11 weeks
and they stay until 12 weeks to make sure the
stitches heal without infection, and get though
their third series of shots.....
So... by the time I was to place my pups from this
litter, I needed to get $768.63 out of every one
of the six just to break even. I put CGC's on
two before they went to homes, so these two
stayed past 6 months of age...
I kept three to show.
So, your next question is what do I sell my pups for?...
My pet puppies are $450 firm. Guess what, I lost money on this litter.
No big surprise really, and this litter came from multi-titled parents and
I have a 13 plus year history of showing collies. Still I made no money
and didn't place a puppy even in the same state I lived in at the time.
The Dam: CH Twin Acres Rendezvous CD,HT,VC,VA,CGC,TT,BHI,CERF,OFA-e
The Sire: Brittish Legend Of Beowulf
CDX,PT,VC,TT,CGC,TDI,BHI,HD,CERF,OFA-g
The three show pups stayed with me!
The three pet pups were hand delivered to their
new homes in Alabama, Georgia and Missouri, so I
could check out the homes myself!
The cost in raising the puppies is the same
whether it is an "All Champion litter" or a
litter of mix-breeds, if you breed responsibly.
So the cost of breeding should be your least
concern.
Ok, so you got a male then....You want to use him at stud.
Think twice. What if your boy gets Canine Brucellosis and has to be put
down?
What does the stud's owner get...
Maybe a good reputation for producing a few nice pups,
or a terrible reputation for producing a lot of pups that end up in
shelters,
with health/temperament problems, with being associated with BYB's,
or a whole host of other evils. Most reputable stud owners WON'T
breed their males to an unproven/untested bitch for all the money in
your bank account if there is a possibility that the breeding won't reflect
well on the male. The ones that take you money and breed what ever you
bring down, don't have a stud worth using. Of course if you've got a male
worth the paper his titles are printed on, you won't have any problems with
the girls coming to you. But then you have to decided who is good
enough to breed to your boy and that is not an easy task....
Here's a poem that a wrote for my web page on this subject
(it says it all!)
Musings on Owning a Stud Dog
Hello.....
No, I'm sorry,
Yes, I know that you will pay.
He's not at public stud,
what else am I to say.
Why?
I have show dogs in the house,
and young puppies down the stairs,
and rescues in my kennel,
that don't go anywheres.
Yes, they are the finest quality.
Yes, I've CERF'd their eyes.
Yes, they are the proper color.
Yes, they are the proper size.
Why don't I sell them then?
I'm afraid it's folk like you,
Looking for a bargain,
or to breed a dog or two.
You just want to use my dog,
He's just something you can breed.
Just to line your pockets.
Just to fill your greed.
You don't want to spay her,
or keep her in a fence.
You won't pay to show her,
or train her for Obedience.
You don't know the Standard,
or the things I have gone through.
To breed a quality litter,
is not an easy thing to do.
You don't want to check her hips,
You won't check her eyes,
You'll breed her to the neighbor's dog,
Just like the "other guys".
You'll sell the pups at six weeks old,
At some little, "cut-rate" price,
then you'll call yourself a breeder,
And think the money's really nice.
You won't use a contract,
to require a neuter or spay.
Your won't take a grown dog back,
For that would cut into your pay.
And other folks will take those pups,
And breed and breed some more.
Without concern for genetic health,
Without knowing that their quality is poor.
And more puppies will be sent away,
to shelters, near and far.
Or dumped out in the countryside,
To be hit by a passing car.
I'm sure you did not want to hear,
all these ugly things that I have said.
'cause you don't "wanta' breed just show dogs",
It means your profit margin's dead.
Now, I'm sorry I have offended you,
with all these things I say,
but, I just got off the phone,
with two others like you today.
No, my males are not at public stud,
and I don't care WHAT you'd pay.
'cause if you don't bred for quality,
It's the all of the rest of us that pay.
Marla Belzowski -- LegendHold Collies
If you still want to bred your dog, now you know
a little more on how to go about it the right way.
The easy way out is to say, "Hey, my dog is a
great pet and I don't need to bred her/him to prove
it". Then you go spay/neuter your dog for $185 and wash
your hands of the whole mess (well maybe not the
show stuff, if you want to do everything BUT conformation).
Because I'm warning you right now,
The real cost of raising a litter is your SANITY,
If you start showing and doing everything the
"right way", it becomes an all consuming passion
which makes your family think you're weird,
your friends at work think you're crazy,
you spend all hours of the night typing on newgroups
so you can learn new things and share your knowledge,
and in the end it will turn you into the
"bitter, crazy, people" you find in
this News Group (present company NOT excluded).
Also, for a giant breed like a Newfie, I'd double the cost of the food and
cleaning supplies, as they are going eat more and make a bigger mess then my
collies
that is FOR SURE.
Good luck,
Your going to need it.
Marla Belzowski
& the LegendHold Collie Clan
Dianne Schoenberg
<GOLDS...@webtv.net> wrote:
>the reasoni want to breed her is because i want a male newfoundland too,
>but dont want to pay 4 another!
The first two responses you got are quite correct--THE very most
expensive way of acquiring a puppy is by breeding a litter yourself.
Please put a little more thought into this before proceeding.
Dianne
TO...@dog-play.com
Wwll THAT's easy enough to solve. Get a nice neutered male newfoundland
from rescue. You will get your wish (male newfoundland) you won't be
paying $1700, you will save a life, you won't risk the life of your bitch,
and you won't be contributing to heartbreak and misery.
But you might want to reconsider bringing any male dog into the household
with a male akita in residence. Your akita is not fully mature, and not
quite as full of himself as he will be soon. If he is everything an
akita should be he will not welcome another male to the household, even if
you start out with a puppy. When that male Newfoundland gets to be about
18 months you will get to learn new skills in keeping two large dogs
under control.
Diane Blackman
http://www.dog-play.com/ http://www.dog-play.com/TOTE.html
" . . . approximately 90 percent of the behavior owners consider negative
occurs when their pets are isolated or alone." "The Body Language and
Emotion of Dogs" by Myrna M. Milani, DVM.
Lynn Kosmakos
TO...@dog-play.com wrote:
> When that male Newfoundland gets to be about
> 18 months you will get to learn new skills in keeping two large dogs
> under control.
Usenet Understatement Award!!!!
Lynn K.
GOLDS...@webtv.net
all the advice! but i am interested in this rescue thing. how do i get
in contact? also, you know about akitas, huh? theyre pretty aggresive
with other animals! ive got many hours invested in obedience training
(i should say months!). also, when i first got him at 7 weeks old, i
began socializing him with other dogs and lots of people, and still do
today. just because i did alot of investigating on the breed! i think
heel be okay with another dog, if introduced properly. it might take a
little time, but i think its possible! hes very cautious, and wary, but
once hes comfortable, hes very affectionate! he absolutely adores
onyx(newf) they are the bet of buds! he grooms her, cleans her ears,
sometimes he just sits there and admiringly stares at her! any one want
to see pics?
Nancy Holmes or Nelson Ruffin
start at www.akc.org and find the national coordinator who can then connect
you to more local resources
another good place to look is www.petfinder.org where lots of groups and
shelters list their dogs
Something more to consider though (I missed that Akita in your first post)
your Akita believes your Newf is *his* girlfriend. There is a high potential
for conflict if you bring in a male who will be larger than the Akita and
who might decide the same thing. Neutering and spaying all concerned may
help but many times the social relationship will still cause a ruckus due to
rivalry for affection and attention.news:20194-39...@storefull-171.iap.bryant.webtv.net...
TO...@dog-play.com
http://www.gad.net/Newf-FAQ/Newf-FAQ_09.html
The Newfoundland Club of America, Newfoundland Rescue committee
is chaired by Mary L. Price in Mt. Horeb, WI.
All the Newf Regional Clubs have Rescue networks as well.
Contact Mary Price at 608-437-4553 for the Newfoundland Rescue group in
your area. http://www.geocities.com/~newfdogclub/
NEWFOUNDLAND RESCUE
Diana Thomson
Loveland, CO
new...@pageplus.com
Good luck
Diane Blackman
Play is necessary to the fullest development of any intelligent being.
http://www.dog-play.com/ http://www.dog-play.com/TOTE.html
Marla Belzowski
will crash some people's computers. If you have a webpage just add the link
and people will go look.
Also you may want to think seriously about another male dog in the house
with your Akita.
I've seen some the results of some pretty bad fights between a male Akita
and a male Rottie (both neutered) in the same house. The owner of these two
boys lived 11 years with the Akita and the Rottie having to be walked
separately, fed separately, played with separately and kept in separate
rooms of the house in crates. Doesn't sound like much fun to me.
There is also of lady in TN that had two female Kites that would try to kill
each other everytime they got together. She ended up in the emergency room
one night trying to get the two of them apart. Shoot, I've got a friend
with Cattle Dogs that has two 1/2 sisters ACD's that would kill each other
if they got the chance, and they are small dogs. Still her husband ended up
in the emergency room getting his thumb stitched up after one of their
tussles and she end up with a $400 Vet bill from patching the two of them
up.
With two large dogs like that, if they get into a serious fight, there isn't
going to be much you can do by yourself to get them apart until after lot of
damage is done.
I'd make sure your Akita boy is going to warm up to the idea before you get
too committed to another male dog in the house. You might want to see how
he'd be around another male dog a bit just to see if the notion would work.
Just a suggestion...
Marla Belzowski
& the LegendHold Collie Clan
<GOLDS...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:20194-39...@storefull-171.iap.bryant.webtv.net...
J + T
Tammy
Carol & The Bullmarket Frenchies
<rhha...@mindspring.com> wrote:
> The newsgroup is
> populated by hand-wringers and know-it-alls
Good to see that the pot-kettle-black
theorem still holds true....
Carol
--
Bullmarket French Bulldogs - http://www.bullmarketfrogs.com
Breed info, puppy cam, pet food research and more!
French Bulldog Fun Land - http://www.frenchbulldogfun.com
Games, postcards,screensavers,stories,book store and more!
Remove the spam to email me
pen...@my-deja.com
Why don't you look into Newfoundland breed rescue? There are a lot of
Newfs out there that need homes. Search fro Newf rescue onthe web. I
have 3 myself (all neutered) and they are a wonderful breed.
unfortunately there are also ALOT of health problems in the breed and
breeding indiscriminately will only perpetuate them. Hand wringer?
Maybe. Know it all? I am in vet med so I guess I am a "know-it-some".
Good l
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