im kind of new to this internet thing, so youll have to excuse my ignorance! but could you pease tell me what a flame is. and also, why am i a jerk? did i do something wrong by wanting to breed my dog? so if you would kindly respond and tell me what the hell your problem is, id appreciate it!
On Sun, 10 Sep 2000 19:23:04 -0400 (EDT) GOLDSMI...@webtv.net whittled these words:
> hi! my name is joe, and i have a beautiful female newfoundland! > she is 2 1/2yrs old. we lve in mass. get back to me ifu can help!
I'm sure she is just lovely, and I'm really glad you love her so much that you think you should make more. Before you get your heart set on it, however, I'd like you to take just a little time to consider some information. From what is not in your post it looks very much like you need to take some time out to learn more about what you are getting into. I know that isn't what you want to hear, but what bad thing can happen if you take the time to learn?
Take a deep breath, read all the way through, try not to take anything personally, and try your best not to mentally argue until you've had a chance to think about it.
Let me explain what it is about your announcement that suggests you have more to learn. To start with your description of your dog as beautiful speaks well of your relationship with her, but it doesn't provide the critical information - the status of her hips and elbows, thyroid, eye, heart. And by that I don't mean just a regular veterinary checkup, but examination by the appropriate specialists to try to avoid passing on any genetic health problems. An educated breeder would be providing an OFA number, a CERF number, and assurances that thyroid tests had been done and the heart examined by a board certified cardiologist.
Similarly nothing in your announcement defines what you want - other than male Newfoundland. Somehow I don't think you had some secret plan to entrap owners of male Newfoundlands into getting educated. I mean, sure someone might decide not to put their requirements in just so when the uneducated stud owner calls they can educate them, but I don't think that is the case here. More likely you didn't demand OFA, CERF, thyroid and heart testing because you didn't know enough to demand them. That means the calls you are most likely to get are from (1) someone who doesn't care, just wants to make bucks off their dog or (2) someone who just doesn't know any better. If we are going to improve the genetic health of our dogs the first step is to become educated and thoughtful in breeding.
I'm also guessing that you may not be prepared for the realities of the risks of breeding, pregnancy, whelping and rearing a litter. The bottom line is that pregancy has always been the most hazardous of natural conditions, and in nature many bitches die giving birth. Sadly man's creation of breeds has made the situation worse. You should have set aside $2,000 or so just for emergencies during whelping. That does not include costs of x-rays and regular vet checkups during the course of the pregancy.
You also have a breed that is difficult to place responsibly. Oh, people will take the puppies. The hard part is going to be to find people who will *keep* the puppies. Take a look at your lovely girl, give her a hug. Now imagine one of her puppies, one of the one *you* helped bring into the world. Imagine that puppy now 18 months old is now in the animal shelter. Does the image of that pup ending up dead give you the shivers? It does me. I'd rather that didn't happen. I don't think you want it to happen wither. But do you know how to avoid that? And are you prepared and able to house eight or so growing large dogs until you can be assured the homes are right? Are you prepared to take back an unwanted two year old to prevent it being killed in the shlter? What if the reason that two year old is unwanted is because it has spent most of its life in the backyard and it has NO house manners, no social skills and tends to be aggressive?
A responsible breeder is just that. They take responsiblity for proper placement and if the placement fails they continue to take responsiblity for the dog. After all it is the breeders "fault" the dog exists in the first place.
Notice that in all this I never said "don't breed." What I'm offering is an opportunity to make a deliberate choice about what kind of breeder you want to be. After you do the research you may decide that breeding is more work and more risk than you are willing to take. Or you might decide that you just want to make money off your dog and to h*ll with all the health testing and concerns about the puppies (I'd guress that's unlikely, but it happens). Or you might decide that *yes* you want to breed but you are prepared to take the time and make the effort to do a good job of it. At least if you have taken the time to research the issues you will be making a *choice*. Since you asked *before* breeding you get to take advantage of the experiences of those of us who didn't, who made mistakes, and have nothing but regrets ever since.
Here is my breeder's ethics page http://www.dog-play.com/ethics.html Feel free to consider which points you disagree with and believe are unimportant. The page also contains resources that will explain the terms such as OFA, and CERF and books on breeding and genetics.
I'm not a breeder, I have three mixed breed neutered and spayed dogs, but I still have books on breeding and genetics. If I can take the time to learn . . . well I hope you will too.
> im kind of new to this internet thing, so youll have to excuse my > ignorance! but could you pease tell me what a flame is. and also, why am > i a jerk? did i do something wrong by wanting to breed my dog? so if you > would kindly respond and tell me what the hell your problem is, id > appreciate it!
No no no no, it's fine.
Flames are the insistent responses you will get telling you you're a fool and an idiot for wanting to breed a dog. The newsgroup is populated by hand-wringers and know-it-alls who will tell you this.
Every now and then somebody asks what you asked and the same thing happens every time. It's like a Greek tragedy, or a computer that makes the same bad chess move every game. -- Ron Hardin rhhar...@mindspring.com
thanx 4 the response on the flame question, now what about the jerk thing? the reasoni want to breed her is because i want a male newfoundland too, but dont want to pay 4 another! she cost me $1700, and worth every penny, but cant afford to pay again! also, everyone in my family loves her, and now want newfoundlands! so i can gaurentee at least 4 good homes! oh, by the way, so he doesnt feel neglected, i should mention about my other dog! i also have a 1 1/2 yr old male akita. hes great! very good watch dog, instinctivly! both dogs are obedience school graduates! well, have a good day!!!
Let me do a little math for you stud service to a good dog - (you wouldn't want to breed your girl to a bad one!) with health clearances around $1000, getting the health clearances on your dog that will make a stud dog owner interested in the breeding (maybe) $300. Shots for pups and wormings for pups and mom a conservative $300. Breeding your dog today (as an example) means pups will be born about a week before thanksgiving. A normal litter will be about 9 pups maybe more or less but figure on 9. I hope you have planned Zero away at the holidays time this year for yourself and that you have saved vacation time to handle this event. The mom and pups will have to be indoors - I hope you have a 6x6 space you can make potty proof and keep nice and warm for mom and pups and that you won't mind cleaning it up about a zillion times a day to keep the odor of birth and pups down to a tolerable level. Your puppies will be ready to do at the earliest about mid to late January when they are 8 weeks old. Nobody wants puppies then (not even relatives) because of the weather (usually nasty for housebreaking) and the holiday bills that are arriving. I hope you are prepared for housetraining 9 puppies and keeping them clean - start scavenging for newspapers now - stealing from recycle bins is advised. Plan on having lots of pups around until they may be as old as 5-6 months - even if the relatives come through. The of course there are food costs. When pregnant the mom will need extra rations towards the end of her pregnancy of a high quality food but when nursing she will need outrageous amounts fed frequently - which of course means frequent potty trips for her or your tolerance in cleaning up potty mistakes. Of course once you wean the pups the food costs will go up dramatically.... I seriously suggest you go and talk to your girl's breeder and ask advice in stud dog selection and health tests that need to be performed before a breeding can take place. Also check your registration form and see if you have a limited registration - if you do no one with a good dog will breed to yours and the pups will not be registerable and won't be worth much. I would guess if you have no complications a reserve fund of about $2000 should cover your expenses. With complications (such as a c-section) or a dam who cannot for some reason care for the pups (mammary gland infection, ecclampsia etc) add in at least another grand. I'm not kidding - my dane had 12 pups that lived out of 14. She could not feed them all. Goats milk supplements cost about $4 per gallon and they had to be fed every two hours around the clock for the first three weeks. I placed the last pup at 5 months old. And took back the first pup (owner couldn't keep it) when it was 11 months old. Do plan on offering 100% returnability else wonder where all the pups end up whenever you see one in the pound. If you really want another newf contact newf rescue (again your breeder should be able to connect you) and offer one a home and or check www.petfinder.org to find one to adopt. And spay your girl - she will lived longer if you do. Nancy
> thanx 4 the response on the flame question, now what about the > jerk thing? > the reasoni want to breed her is because i want a male newfoundland too, > but dont want to pay 4 another! she cost me $1700, and worth every > penny, but cant afford to pay again! also, everyone in my family loves > her, and now want newfoundlands! so i can gaurentee at least 4 good > homes! oh, by the way, so he doesnt feel neglected, i should mention > about my other dog! i also have a 1 1/2 yr old male akita. hes great! > very good watch dog, instinctivly! both dogs are obedience school > graduates! well, have a good day!!!
Here's some fuel for you... Here's one I save for these types of occasions.
This is the real thing too, not an estimated cost (and I probably understated a bunch of little things that I bought and just forgot about). This covers my litter born in 1996.
The Real Cost of Raising a Litter.
If you realy think your girl is worth breeding, find a way to prove she has something to offer to the bred and then bred her to the BEST you can! Accept no less.
Show her in the Conformation ring. It takes just a little bit of training, but a whole lot of money and time to finish that Champion title. Then you can say you have a "Show Quality" dog and no one can question you. Until then, you only have dog of untested against the breed standard. Who knows, you could have the next Best in Show at Westminster, but if you never try to finish that "CH" title, you'll never get a shot at the Garden.
Until then, get all the health certificates you can, CERF, OFA (hips and elbows), Certificate for normal heart rythyms, thyroid certificate, etc, what ever is required by your respective breed as all of them have different problems that are more pressing than other breeds. This is going to cost you somewhere in the neighborhood of $300 - $800.
Of course your going to need to spend hours researching your girl's bloodline so that you do breed her to a dog that complements her both phenotypically and genotypically. If you don't know the difference between phenotypical and genotypical, you are not ready to bred a dog. If you don't, you could end up with growth and development problems which could lead to undershot jaws and other "cosmetic" problems that can have serious health related consequences.
If she won't make it in the conformation ring get an obedience title, agility title, herding title, tracking title, hunting title, something! On any breed, is a real accomplishment, especially the higher titles. The upper titles are not the easy things to finish by any means. Cost $700 -$800 to finish each title, with training classes included, assuming you finish in about 3 local shows.
Then you have something, and your pups have some value for the potential they can bring to the effort to improve the breed.
This way you can also make contact with other owners in the "show dog world" that can help you improve on any faults your girl has and help guide prospective new puppy owners to you when you have your litter. You have a shot at breeding to a pointed dog or maybe even a bred champion at that point.
The cost of raising a litter? If you do it right, you rarely make any money.
Of course if you cut every corner with the only goal as to make money, you probably pick up about $500 when everything is over and done with, if everything goes "PERFECT"(no emergency c-sections, no loosing the Dam and hand feeding the pups, no serious infections..etc) and you get every pup out of the house with nothing put into then, like no shots at 6 weeks, no advertising, and no time spent in socializing or working with the pups. If you break out that $500 into the amount of time you'll spend on the litter, you find you'll probably make less than $1.50 an hour. You can make more working at a fast food joint than breeding puppies.
But then again, who in their right mind would want a pup raised like like that, with no shots, cheepest food possible, no specialized health certificates on the parents, right?
My last litter break down was as about like follows:
I owned both the bitch and stud -- bought the bitch for $3000 and bred the stud from a previous litter -- his stud fee would have been $500, due to his health clearances and titles.
SO cost for bitch only (no show cost included)... OFA - $80 CERF -$32 Thyroid test - $45 Pre-breeding exam (bitch) -- $85 burcellosis test and VC no stud fee for me this time but normal stud fee $350 -$500 for a collie but it can be as high as $1000 for the current top producing sire of all time.
Extra food while she was in whelp -- $140 (near the due date she went from eating 3 1/2 cups of premium dog food to nearly 9 cups)
Newspapers for whelping materials $60.00 New paint for whelping box $15 (I had a whelping box, but if you don't have one plan on adding $50 for the wood and screws to build one)
Cleaning supplies for doing "poopy-puppy towles" - $25
After the pups were born, $65 vet house call to give oxi-tosan (sp?) injection to make she didn't retain a plecenta.
Results: 8 puppies: 6 live puppies..two died within 24hrs..pretty normal.. for collies to lose a pup or two, they have to be kept 95 degrees F for the first 3 days and slowly have the temp. lowered in the whelping box or they just loose the will to live. So you have to learn to deal with the loss of pups..it doesn't get any easier the longer you breed. I cried for several days afterwards....even though I swear everytime I have a litter I'm not going to take heroic efforts to save fading pups, I always do....
Pace adds in National Breed Club magazine -- $350 one time! Get appointment for eye checks NOW! Send in registration papers --$35 Print up pedigrees in color for new owners -$20
Up until the pups were 4 weeks, things were pretty quiet --just a lot of changing papers everyday, cleaning the puppy towels, oh yes, my bitch was now eating 10-11 cups of food a day (add $160 in extra food)
...then it gets nuts
5 weeks worming -- $95 Pups start eating semi-solid food -- they go through 40# in three days! eating up a total of 12-16 cups of food a day split into three times a day, from 5 weeks to 8 weeks -- $320
Order collars and leashes for prospective owners to take with the pups (nobody brings a leash when they get a new puppy!) -- $55
Pups out, pups in, feed, potty, change papers, pups out, pups in, feed, clean up, play, socialize, feed, clean, in, out, in, out... (pant pant pant....) oh...into work at 7 am with 2 hours of sleep for the next 3-5 weeks.....
More laundry and a new x-pen to let the pups go outside. --$100 Puppy toys -- $35 Puppy eye checks $20 a piece X 6 = $120
etc.etc.etc....
Are you seeing the trend here.
By the time I was done putting together my puppy pack which includes a brush, long coat rake, small bottle of Adam's flea and tick shampoo, 20 # bag of puppy food, $24.95 copy of Good Dogs, Great Owners..by Brian Killcummins, folder with all registration papers, shot records, feeding instructions, eye check results, pet contract..etc... I have more money wrapped up into the pups than I'll ever get back.
Plus I SPAY OR NEUTER my pet pups at 11 weeks and they stay until 12 weeks to make sure the stitches heal without infection, and get though their third series of shots.....
So... by the time I was to place my pups from this litter, I needed to get $768.63 out of every one of the six just to break even. I put CGC's on two before they went to homes, so these two stayed past 6 months of age...
I kept three to show.
So, your next question is what do I sell my pups for?... My pet puppies are $450 firm. Guess what, I lost money on this litter. No big surprise really, and this litter came from multi-titled parents and I have a 13 plus year history of showing collies. Still I made no money and didn't place a puppy even in the same state I lived in at the time.
The Dam: CH Twin Acres Rendezvous CD,HT,VC,VA,CGC,TT,BHI,CERF,OFA-e The Sire: Brittish Legend Of Beowulf CDX,PT,VC,TT,CGC,TDI,BHI,HD,CERF,OFA-g
The three show pups stayed with me! The three pet pups were hand delivered to their new homes in Alabama, Georgia and Missouri, so I could check out the homes myself!
The cost in raising the puppies is the same whether it is an "All Champion litter" or a litter of mix-breeds, if you breed responsibly. So the cost of breeding should be your least concern.
Ok, so you got a male then....You want to use him at stud. Think twice. What if your boy gets Canine Brucellosis and has to be put down?
What does the stud's owner get... Maybe a good reputation for producing a few nice pups, or a terrible reputation for producing a lot of pups that end up in shelters, with health/temperament problems, with being associated with BYB's, or a whole host of other evils. Most reputable stud owners WON'T breed their males to an unproven/untested bitch for all the money in your bank account if there is a possibility that the breeding won't reflect well on the male. The ones that take you money and breed what ever you bring down, don't have a stud worth using. Of course if you've got a male worth the paper his titles are printed on, you won't have any problems with the girls coming to you. But then you have to decided who is good enough to breed to your boy and that is not an easy task....
Here's a poem that a wrote for my web page on this subject (it says it all!)
Musings on Owning a Stud Dog
Hello.....
No, I'm sorry, Yes, I know that you will pay. He's not at public stud, what else am I to say.
Why?
I have show dogs in the house, and young puppies down the stairs, and rescues in my kennel, that don't go anywheres.
Yes, they are the finest quality. Yes, I've CERF'd their eyes. Yes, they are the proper color. Yes, they are the proper size.
Why don't I sell them then? I'm afraid it's folk like you, Looking for a bargain, or to breed a dog or two.
You just want to use my dog, He's just something you can breed. Just to line your pockets. Just to fill your greed.
In article <12546-39BCAD1...@storefull-177.iap.bryant.webtv.net>,
<GOLDSMI...@webtv.net> wrote: >the reasoni want to breed her is because i want a male newfoundland too, >but dont want to pay 4 another!
The first two responses you got are quite correct--THE very most expensive way of acquiring a puppy is by breeding a litter yourself. Please put a little more thought into this before proceeding.
On Mon, 11 Sep 2000 05:59:59 -0400 (EDT) GOLDSMI...@webtv.net whittled these words:
> thanx 4 the response on the flame question, now what about the > jerk thing? > the reasoni want to breed her is because i want a male newfoundland too, > but dont want to pay 4 another! she cost me $1700, and worth every > penny, but cant afford to pay again! also, everyone in my family loves > her, and now want newfoundlands! so i can gaurentee at least 4 good > homes! oh, by the way, so he doesnt feel neglected, i should mention > about my other dog! i also have a 1 1/2 yr old male akita. hes great! > very good watch dog, instinctivly! both dogs are obedience school > graduates! well, have a good day!!!
Wwll THAT's easy enough to solve. Get a nice neutered male newfoundland from rescue. You will get your wish (male newfoundland) you won't be paying $1700, you will save a life, you won't risk the life of your bitch, and you won't be contributing to heartbreak and misery.
But you might want to reconsider bringing any male dog into the household with a male akita in residence. Your akita is not fully mature, and not quite as full of himself as he will be soon. If he is everything an akita should be he will not welcome another male to the household, even if you start out with a puppy. When that male Newfoundland gets to be about 18 months you will get to learn new skills in keeping two large dogs under control.
Diane Blackman http://www.dog-play.com/http://www.dog-play.com/TOTE.html " . . . approximately 90 percent of the behavior owners consider negative occurs when their pets are isolated or alone." "The Body Language and Emotion of Dogs" by Myrna M. Milani, DVM.
T...@dog-play.com wrote: > When that male Newfoundland gets to be about > 18 months you will get to learn new skills in keeping two large dogs > under control.
ok, im convinced! meybe breeding her is not the best idea! thanks 4 all the advice! but i am interested in this rescue thing. how do i get in contact? also, you know about akitas, huh? theyre pretty aggresive with other animals! ive got many hours invested in obedience training (i should say months!). also, when i first got him at 7 weeks old, i began socializing him with other dogs and lots of people, and still do today. just because i did alot of investigating on the breed! i think heel be okay with another dog, if introduced properly. it might take a little time, but i think its possible! hes very cautious, and wary, but once hes comfortable, hes very affectionate! he absolutely adores onyx(newf) they are the bet of buds! he grooms her, cleans her ears, sometimes he just sits there and admiringly stares at her! any one want to see pics?
To find a breed rescue group for the breed of choice start at www.akc.org and find the national coordinator who can then connect you to more local resources another good place to look is www.petfinder.org where lots of groups and shelters list their dogs Something more to consider though (I missed that Akita in your first post) your Akita believes your Newf is *his* girlfriend. There is a high potential for conflict if you bring in a male who will be larger than the Akita and who might decide the same thing. Neutering and spaying all concerned may help but many times the social relationship will still cause a ruckus due to rivalry for affection and attention. Nancy
> ok, im convinced! meybe breeding her is not the best idea! thanks 4 > all the advice! but i am interested in this rescue thing. how do i get > in contact? also, you know about akitas, huh? theyre pretty aggresive > with other animals! ive got many hours invested in obedience training > (i should say months!). also, when i first got him at 7 weeks old, i > began socializing him with other dogs and lots of people, and still do > today. just because i did alot of investigating on the breed! i think > heel be okay with another dog, if introduced properly. it might take a > little time, but i think its possible! hes very cautious, and wary, but > once hes comfortable, hes very affectionate! he absolutely adores > onyx(newf) they are the bet of buds! he grooms her, cleans her ears, > sometimes he just sits there and admiringly stares at her! any one want > to see pics?
On Tue, 12 Sep 2000 06:07:29 -0400 (EDT) GOLDSMI...@webtv.net whittled these words:
> ok, im convinced! meybe breeding her is not the best idea! thanks 4 > all the advice! but i am interested in this rescue thing. how do i get > in contact? also, you know about akitas, huh? theyre pretty aggresive > with other animals! ive got many hours invested in obedience training > (i should say months!). also, when i first got him at 7 weeks old, i > began socializing him with other dogs and lots of people, and still do > today. just because i did alot of investigating on the breed! i think > heel be okay with another dog, if introduced properly. it might take a > little time, but i think its possible! hes very cautious, and wary, but > once hes comfortable, hes very affectionate! he absolutely adores > onyx(newf) they are the bet of buds! he grooms her, cleans her ears, > sometimes he just sits there and admiringly stares at her! any one want > to see pics?
The Newfoundland Club of America, Newfoundland Rescue committee is chaired by Mary L. Price in Mt. Horeb, WI. All the Newf Regional Clubs have Rescue networks as well. Contact Mary Price at 608-437-4553 for the Newfoundland Rescue group in your area. http://www.geocities.com/~newfdogclub/
NEWFOUNDLAND RESCUE Diana Thomson Loveland, CO newf...@pageplus.com
I'd love to see picture of your "fuzzies"...but you can't post them here, it will crash some people's computers. If you have a webpage just add the link and people will go look.
Also you may want to think seriously about another male dog in the house with your Akita. I've seen some the results of some pretty bad fights between a male Akita and a male Rottie (both neutered) in the same house. The owner of these two boys lived 11 years with the Akita and the Rottie having to be walked separately, fed separately, played with separately and kept in separate rooms of the house in crates. Doesn't sound like much fun to me.
There is also of lady in TN that had two female Kites that would try to kill each other everytime they got together. She ended up in the emergency room one night trying to get the two of them apart. Shoot, I've got a friend with Cattle Dogs that has two 1/2 sisters ACD's that would kill each other if they got the chance, and they are small dogs. Still her husband ended up in the emergency room getting his thumb stitched up after one of their tussles and she end up with a $400 Vet bill from patching the two of them up.
With two large dogs like that, if they get into a serious fight, there isn't going to be much you can do by yourself to get them apart until after lot of damage is done.
I'd make sure your Akita boy is going to warm up to the idea before you get too committed to another male dog in the house. You might want to see how he'd be around another male dog a bit just to see if the notion would work.
> ok, im convinced! meybe breeding her is not the best idea! thanks 4 > all the advice! but i am interested in this rescue thing. how do i get > in contact? also, you know about akitas, huh? theyre pretty aggresive > with other animals! ive got many hours invested in obedience training > (i should say months!). also, when i first got him at 7 weeks old, i > began socializing him with other dogs and lots of people, and still do > today. just because i did alot of investigating on the breed! i think > heel be okay with another dog, if introduced properly. it might take a > little time, but i think its possible! hes very cautious, and wary, but > once hes comfortable, hes very affectionate! he absolutely adores > onyx(newf) they are the bet of buds! he grooms her, cleans her ears, > sometimes he just sits there and admiringly stares at her! any one want > to see pics?
GOLDSMI...@webtv.net wrote: > hi! my name is joe, and i have a beautiful female newfoundland! > she is 2 1/2yrs old. we lve in mass. get back to me ifu can help!
In article <12546-39BCAD1...@storefull-177.iap.bryant.webtv.net>,
GOLDSMI...@webtv.net wrote: > thanx 4 the response on the flame question, now what about the > jerk thing? > the reasoni want to breed her is because i want a male newfoundland too, > but dont want to pay 4 another! she cost me $1700, and worth every > penny, but cant afford to pay again! also, everyone in my family loves > her, and now want newfoundlands! so i can gaurentee at least 4 good > homes! oh, by the way, so he doesnt feel neglected, i should mention > about my other dog! i also have a 1 1/2 yr old male akita. hes great! > very good watch dog, instinctivly! both dogs are obedience school > graduates! well, have a good day!!!
>Goldsmith:
Why don't you look into Newfoundland breed rescue? There are a lot of Newfs out there that need homes. Search fro Newf rescue onthe web. I have 3 myself (all neutered) and they are a wonderful breed. unfortunately there are also ALOT of health problems in the breed and breeding indiscriminately will only perpetuate them. Hand wringer? Maybe. Know it all? I am in vet med so I guess I am a "know-it-some". Good l
