Ear Crop: Much Pain?
Cutter21
speculation on your part but I trust your judgment on this.
Are there people who would not have their next dog's ears cropped due to
the obvious pain the dog goes through? Or is it only bad for a short time
and a dog can endure it pretty well then get over it quickly?
I need to explain this to my children, who insist on NOT having our new
minpin's ears done. I prefer to have it done, but not at the expense of
terrible pain to the puppy.
Trevor
Trevor
Cutter21 wrote in message
<01bdd9bc$e94f2880$8c29...@cchiker.mountain.net>...
AVRAMA GINGOLD
C> speculation on your part but I trust your judgment on this.
C> Are there people who would not have their next dog's ears cropped due to
C> the obvious pain the dog goes through? Or is it only bad for a short time
C> and a dog can endure it pretty well then get over it quickly?
C> I need to explain this to my children, who insist on NOT having our new
C> minpin's ears done. I prefer to have it done, but not at the expense of
C> terrible pain to the puppy.
WHAT obvious pain? Perhaps when cropping was first initiated there
was obvious pain, but today it is done under anesthesia. You can tell
your children that the puppy's ears are done while it is under
anesthesia (why didn't your breeder get it done?), i.e., while
it is asleep and can't feel anything. It may get a bit annoyed
and being held still whiule you change the tapes, but that's
about it.
I've seen Dobe puppies get their ears done, wake up a few minutes
later, and rush about looking for a toy or food as if nothing had
happened.
avrama & shomer*
* ears proudly erect.
.. nfx v2.7 [C0000] Your dog is your only philosopher. -- Plato
slvr...@ionline.net
much beyond eight weeks of age since nerves are more developed and more pain
is involved. I am guilty of cropping my own dogs even though I continue to
say that I am going to keep one with natural ears but my excuse is that it is
hard enough to win in conformation showing with all the politics especially
if you are an owner/handler like myself and having natural ears sets you
apart as being "different" from most others and this may cost you a good win.
Puppies I sell as pets mostly go with their ears on. I simply do not
encourage ear cropping for pets. Furthermore, ear cropping is a procedure
where the puppy should be in the care of an experience breeder and it should
NOT be the responsibility of a pet owner to have cropping done.
Cropping is purely cosmetic - there is NO advantage to your dog to have this
procedure performed. Yes, there is some pain. Each dog is different and
some have a harder time than others but there is one thing that I can
guarantee and that is if you touch a cropped puppys' ears within a week after
it's done they will scream to let you know that IT HURTS! I personally hate
ear cropping but like I previously mentioned am guilty for doing it myself
but there is a viable reason in my opinion. If your dog is a "pet" there is
absolutely no need to have cropping done. Enjoy your little pup in its
natural state.
In article <01bdd9bc$e94f2880$8c29...@cchiker.mountain.net>,
"Cutter21" <sisihiker@accessdotmountaindotnet> wrote:
> Need to know just how painful is ear cropping? I realize this is purely
> speculation on your part but I trust your judgment on this.
> Are there people who would not have their next dog's ears cropped due to
> the obvious pain the dog goes through? Or is it only bad for a short time
> and a dog can endure it pretty well then get over it quickly?
> I need to explain this to my children, who insist on NOT having our new
> minpin's ears done. I prefer to have it done, but not at the expense of
> terrible pain to the puppy.
>
>
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
J1Boss
>Cropping is purely cosmetic - there is NO advantage to your dog to have this
>procedure performed.
******** Um, this isn't TOTALLY true. Many breeds who have traditionally had
their ears cropped, had it done for specific reasons. Audible enhancement,
less for varmints to hang on to, etc, are all reasons it was done.
Now, with the average pet owner not needing to be concerned about such things,
why it is STILL done is always something to be questioned. There are some
owners who claim the above reasons to still hold true.
IMHO, if a breed needs to be audibly enhanced or have their ears less of a
target for teeth, why haven't the breeders, over the years, bred other dogs
into the mix, to produce prick ears rather than drop ears? Why do dogs with
drop ears seem to perform their canine duties perfectly fine, without this
"enhancement"? Why don't we insist that ALL dogs have prick ears and no tail?
With the breeds I own, I'll never be faced with the question of whether to dock
and crop or not. However, I can't imagine ever being willing to cut a dog for
cosmetic reasons.
Janet Boss<BR>
Best Friends Dog Obedience<BR>
"Nice Manners for the Family Pet"<BR>
<BR>
"Read your question for the obvious answer"
j garcia
procedure is done under anesthesia. They never had any problems, did not
whine or cry and were not particularly sensitive to the ear region. The only
discomfort they had was itching when the ears were healing. We used vet
recommended medicated powder on the ears and it helped tremendously.
Ear cropping is not for everyone, but then neither is circumcision on days
old (human) infants WITHOUT anesthesia. I am not sorry I had it done as my
Dobes look magnificent. It also helps keep their ears clean. Each of the
dogs take turns at cleaning each others ears. Since all 3 have had their
ears cropped it makes it easier for them to clean. ;-)
--
Janis
remove NOSPAM for email
J1Boss wrote in message <199809081501...@ladder03.news.aol.com>...
Trevor
of an experienced breeder that you aren't saying that the breeder should be
the one doing the cropping. I'm sure you mean that it should be performed
by a liscenced veterinarian as it is a surgical procedure and that the after
care should be managed by an experienced breeder. I think that is good
advice if you have to have it done but if your only purpose is to be
accepted in conformation then I find that horrible.
Trevor
slvr...@ionline.net wrote in message <6t3cqf$b5i$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>First of all - how old is your puppy? Ear cropping should not be performed
>much beyond eight weeks of age since nerves are more developed and more
pain
>is involved. I am guilty of cropping my own dogs even though I continue to
>say that I am going to keep one with natural ears but my excuse is that it
is
>hard enough to win in conformation showing with all the politics especially
>if you are an owner/handler like myself and having natural ears sets you
>apart as being "different" from most others and this may cost you a good
win.
> Puppies I sell as pets mostly go with their ears on. I simply do not
>encourage ear cropping for pets. Furthermore, ear cropping is a procedure
>where the puppy should be in the care of an experience breeder and it
should
>NOT be the responsibility of a pet owner to have cropping done.
>
>Cropping is purely cosmetic - there is NO advantage to your dog to have
this
ro...@freenet.co.uk
wrote:
>Ear cropping is a painful and unnecessary mutilation. Please don't do it.
>
>Trevor
Trevor at last another human with some thought for our canine friends
I was beginning to think that everyone else was right and I was wrong
regarding this totally unnecessary butchering of dogs ears , Thank God
that it has now been stopped here in the uk and I hope that tail
docking is next in line for the chop also .
Mutilation is to nice a word to use regarding this subject and these
very cruel owners who have this butchery performed on their Danes and
dobermans etc .
Ron .
ro...@manchester-uk.crosswinds.net
ro...@freenet.co.uk
>owever, I can't imagine ever being willing to cut a dog for
>cosmetic reasons.
I can't imagine ever being willing to have a dog cut for anything
except to its life
Ron .
ro...@manchester-uk.crosswinds.net
Connie Davis
wicked, and if anyone would like me to cut their ears and then try to convince me that it didn't
hurt, well they must have an extremely high pain tolerance level. Let the beautiful creatures live
as they were made.
Please, just don't do it. ConnieD.
Trevor wrote in message <6t1tim$3jq$1...@news.mag-net.com>...
:Ear cropping is a painful and unnecessary mutilation. Please don't do it.
:
:Trevor
:
:Cutter21 wrote in message
:<01bdd9bc$e94f2880$8c29...@cchiker.mountain.net>...
:>Need to know just how painful is ear cropping? I realize this is purely
:
:
Lori S. Mohr-Corrigan
not. It's no secret that humans are a vain, insecure bunch who are always
trying to "improve upon" themselves. The choice is made for the dogs to
alter their appearance for nothing more than beauty's sake.
Lori
Lori S. Mohr-Corrigan
"corrections" that nobody talks about in the show dog world <<
Being of the rescue world, which is the ugly step-sister of the show world,
any alteration for the sake of human ego bothers me.
Lori
Nancy E.Holmes or R. Nelson Ruffin
'fix' that problem you have in your face and how many humans will just jump
at doing that if they can afford it.
Cropping is not done without anesthetic unless you are talking about puppy
mills who cut off ears and tails at the same time (2-3 days) or sadists.
Its no more barbaric than a facelift or a tummy tuck or an ear piercing.
Nancy
Connie Davis <connie...@wxs.nl> wrote in article
<6t6kik$q3h$1...@reader1.wxs.nl>...
Puddysmomm
Lori S. Mohr-Corrigan wrote in message
<#J$Fc8F39...@upnetnews02.moswest.msn.net>...
cropping...so in the meantime,in order for dogs to compete against one
another,it will continue.You ask any major breeder/handler,or show
enthusiast who works with Schnauzers,Boxers,Danes and the like,and they will
tell you.Dogs will NOT be competitive without it.
If these practices bother you so much,how about the surgical
crimped tail that needs a little straightening...the beautiful dog except
for the slight alignment problem in the jaw.
Winning to many "show" people is an ego trip,and the bigger the edge over
their competitors the better.Try crying about it to those people...they'd
laugh at you!
Rachel
J1Boss
>Nancy
>
********** Can't agree with the ear piercing part - that's pretty minor in the
"cut" category. Have you seen people who've just had a face lift? UGH! I had
non-cosmetic surgery recently, and in the recovery area, there was a woman who
had wraps and ice packs, and bloody gauze, all around her head and face. I
asked what had happened - she looked horrible. "Oh - JUST a face lift", the
nurse replied. JUST??!!!??? Why anyone would be willing to go through that is
beyond me. An ear crop, while I still disagree with it, looks downright
gentle compared to that!
AVRAMA GINGOLD
Have either of you read anything about the history and
function of the breeds commonly cropped and docked?
Obviously not, or you would realize that cropping and
docking is more than an aesthetic decision.
As a simple example, wolves as adults have erect ears.
Dogs retain many infantile characteristics, among them
the dropped or floppy ears. Neotony is fine insofar as
the juvenile appearance induced early Homo S. to keep
the wolves who retained that appearance, but for a
protection dog hearing acuity and the ability to
determine the source of a sound is even more important.
Notice how the ears of a dog with erect or cropped and
hence erect ears swivel to locate sound. This is a
definite improvement in echolocation over the floppy
ear. (The actual improvement in hearing acuity and
sensitivity may be minor, but detecting a threat
ten yards soon can be a major difference.) But I
guess you are the kind who believe that dogs should not
be protectors.
And let us ignore the well-documented fact that it is
much easier to keep erect ears clean and disease free.
(Yes, you can keep your Cocker Spaniel's ears clean
and free of mites, but it is more difficult.)
In fact, let us just ignore everything about the breeds
who are historically docked and/or cropped, let us use
the arguments about non-existent pain, and let us just
argue from ignorance. That is the only way to agree
with you.
.. nfx v2.7 [C0000] If I've one life to lead, let my lead be on a Dobe.
AVRAMA GINGOLD
LM> "corrections" that nobody talks about in the show dog world <<
LM>
LM> Being of the rescue world, which is the ugly step-sister of the show world,
LM> any alteration for the sake of human ego bothers me.
LM>
LM> Lori
LM>
But you do castrate and hysterectomize to avoid having to be
careful to prevent unwanted breeding. Guess what--castration
and spaying are a lot more invasive surgeries.
.. nfx v2.7 [C0000] A dog is a bond between strangers.
Janet Gunn
avrama....@relaynet.org (AVRAMA GINGOLD) wrote:
As can be seen from the WIDE variety of dog breeds,
SOME are born with erect ears, SOME are born with
dropped ears.
Most feral dogs seem to have erect ears, so I think there
is no shortage of "erect ear" genes out there.
If you think dogs are better off with erect ears-
select a breed with erect ears, or BREED FOR ERECT EARS.
Or, more to the point, if Herr Doberman wanted erect ears,
he should have bred for them.
Sorry, I AM willing to buy your argument that erect ears
have some advantage over dropped ears, but I am NOT willing
to accept yur argument that this justifies surgically
altering them.
Janet Gunn
Lori S. Mohr-Corrigan
careful to prevent unwanted breeding. Guess what--castration
and spaying are a lot more invasive surgeries <<
But guess what? Those are not cosmetic surgeries, which is the point of
this particular discussion.
Lori
Lori S. Mohr-Corrigan
function of the breeds commonly cropped and docked? <<
Yes, and for the most part, these procedures were performed to help working
dogs do the job the *human* bred him to do in the fields, woods, etc. Now
that the majority of dogs are house pets, there is no longer any need to
keep up the tradition of mutilation.
Lori
Connie Davis
isn't given that choice is s/he? Just for the vanity of the owner or breeder and congrats to those
breeders, and vets who refuse to carry out this practice. If you don't like the look of the dog then
why get one in the first place. Infact why have a dog at all if you fall into the catagory of having
to mutilate the animal so it meets with YOUR specifications, or those of the breed standard.
let the dog live with everything intact.. I personally would rather have to grab the cups off the
coffee table to avoid being swiped on the floor by a wagging tail, than see some poor dog having
just a stump. I have had various breeds over the years, Dobbies, Boxers, Spaniels and Labbies and
where ever possible I have informed the breeder that I did not want my prospective pup to be
mutilated. I have never renaged on a deal and have had all my dogs in a complete condition. It never
hurt them and they were just as adorable as another animal.
Only by breeders and those who show their animals in a total condition will the cruel practice of
mutilating a perfectly healthy dog stop.
ConnieD.
Nancy E.Holmes or R. Nelson Ruffin wrote in message
<01bddc5a$aacd71c0$44d8...@fmkaffen.ix.netcom.com>...
:Well OTOH let someone offer to put you under the knife (and anesthesia) to
:'fix' that problem you have in your face and how many humans will just jump
:at doing that if they can afford it.
:Cropping is not done without anesthetic unless you are talking about puppy
:mills who cut off ears and tails at the same time (2-3 days) or sadists.
:Its no more barbaric than a facelift or a tummy tuck or an ear piercing.
:Nancy
:
:Connie Davis <connie...@wxs.nl> wrote in article
:> :
:> :
:>
:>
:>
J1Boss
>If you think dogs are better off with erect ears-
>select a breed with erect ears, or BREED FOR ERECT EARS.
>
And gets agreement from another Janet -
I've asked this same thing, and never have gotten an answer about it. My dogs
hear just fine with their fuzzy drop ears.
Tammy H
of dogs to something in humans, I would have to say it would be
circumcision. Both are done in infancy, both for various reasons
(aesthetics or health), both are done with anesthesia (although the dog's
more likely to get it than the kid), both without the operatee's consent and
you can sit and argue till your faces turn blue over who's right or wrong.
You want to hear wrong? I know a guy who wanted to rescue a pit bull who
had it's ears cut OFF. Totally OFF. The major thing that held this man
back was that he felt if he did get the dog, people would think HE was the
one that did it. And with pits having such a bad rep the way it is, he
opted not to have people fearful of him and his dog and he adopted a
different dog. Now *that* was a cruel operation and I would like to take a
pair of 8" kitchen shears to the slob who did that.
Personally, I would not crop, or dock, or de-dewclaw my dog unless it was
medically necessary. She *is* spayed and she and I are quite happy with
that. That operation went very well with her and she was only drowsy for a
day. I wish I could fare as well with an abdominal surgery... How well she
dealt with that invasive surgery would lead me to believe that ear cropping
would be a minor deal given medical care. There are people who crop their
dog's ears, people who paint their poodles blue, and people who keep their
dogs on a vegetarian diet. Hey, be happy that these well-groomed, cared-for
dogs have owners who love them.
Tammy & Loki (with the coffee table clearing tail - oops you didn't want
that glass)
tre...@newshunter-uk.easynet.co.uk
<cocker...@email.msn.com> wrote:
>>> If these practices bother you so much,how about the surgical
>"corrections" that nobody talks about in the show dog world <<
>
>Being of the rescue world, which is the ugly step-sister of the show world,
>any alteration for the sake of human ego bothers me.
>
>Lori
>
Is it not about time all none life saving surgical operations on dogs
where banned and is it not about time people in the US stopped
bothering about what President Clinton has been doing in his off duty
time and concentrated more on what some of you people are doing to
your dogs .
Ron .
ro...@manchester-uk.crosswinds.net
Nancy E.Holmes or R. Nelson Ruffin
cropped ears after the surgery is done because of course the surgery does
not hurt at all anymore than any other surgery does because the dog is
under anesthetic.
Properly cared for cropped ears are healed and up and neither painful nor
itchy within 10 - 14 days of the surgery. Improperly cared for and taped
for weeks they can be a real pain to the pup. Short min-pin ears would not
be likely to need much tape or even any posts etc as some of the breeds
where donkey style up ears are now the rule.
If the ear edges are kept clean (I use peroxide to dry them) and the tape
is limited to the side of the ear that is not cropped IME the pup will
shake their head once or twice because the ears feel funny, discover that
its uncomfortable to do that (can't be really painful because of the way
the pups react or rather don't react) and go back to playing with each
other. In a litter some pups can and do hurt each other if not separated.
In a one pup home head patting would need to be limited.
By far and away the most uncomfortable time I have seen for a pup is when
the ear starts really healing and begins itching (within 2-3 days IME).
Gentle rubbing of the ear away from the edge while you clean and examine it
builds a trust and comfort bond nicely.
Personally I feel that only an experienced person or someone with the
guidance of an experienced person (and alas few vets rate that particular
title in this kind of thing) should be caring for cropped ears. I believe
your breeder should have done it before you got the pup and had the ears up
when you took it.
If you decide to do it - find the vet ALL the local breeders use even if
they have to take a good long drive to get to him or her.
Nancy
Cutter21 <sisihiker@accessdotmountaindotnet> wrote in article
AVRAMA GINGOLD
LM> careful to prevent unwanted breeding. Guess what--castration
LM> and spaying are a lot more invasive surgeries <<
LM>
LM> But guess what? Those are not cosmetic surgeries, which is the point of
LM> this particular discussion.
LM>
They are optional surgeries: you were the one who defined cropping
and docking as cosmetic surgeries.
.. nfx v2.7 [C0000] A writer's best friend is the wastebasket.
AVRAMA GINGOLD
J> I've asked this same thing, and never have gotten an answer about it. My do
J> hear just fine with their fuzzy drop ears.
J>
Apparently proponents of drop ears cannot hear the difference
between refering to improvement in hearing acuity and speaking
of an all or none situation. My dog obeys "just fine" for
general behavior, for going into stores and other public
places, but he does not obey well enough to go into Open,
let alone Utility. FOR A GUARD/PROTECTION DOG echolocation
is exceedingly important--the source of a danger must be
pinpointed as early as possible. Scent hounds, whose long
ears are very functional FOR THEM, must follow to where the
animal is, not be aware of its approach.
And the answer you have received--why not breed for erect ears--
is one you have probably refused to hear: one can breed only for
what is in the gene pool, or add genes. Unfortunately, the drop
earred ancestors had other desired qualities. If to get the
strong scent discrimination ability of the Weimaraner I have to
crop ears, so be it.
avrama & shomer*
* ears proudly alert.
.. nfx v2.7 [C0000] We're all in the gutter; some are looking at the stars
AVRAMA GINGOLD
JG> he should have bred for them.
Unfortunately, the base breed (the Standard Pinscher) and the
breeds that were used to obtain some of the other desired qualities,
had dropped ears (hound type ears).
avrama
JG>
JG> Sorry, I AM willing to buy your argument that erect ears
JG> have some advantage over dropped ears, but I am NOT willing
JG> to accept yur argument that this justifies surgically
JG> altering them.
JG>
JG>
JG>
JG> Janet Gunn
JG>
JG>
JG>
.. nfx v2.7 [C0000] "Nature teaches beasts to know their friends."
tre...@newshunter-uk.easynet.co.uk
<connie...@wxs.nl> wrote:
>I may not be any oil painting but then I can choose if I want to change my appearance, The dog
>isn't given that choice is s/he? Just for the vanity of the owner or breeder and congrats to those
>breeders, and vets who refuse to carry out this practice.
Connie it is not good enough for vets and breeders to voluntarily
refuse to crop and dock the practice needs to be banned by law as ear
cropping is here in the UK and I suspect other parts of europe also,
tail docking should also be banned and it is long past time moves
where made in Europe to ban this cruel barbaric practice also.
Ear cropping is mainly practiced in the US and I think the US senators
would be better employed in the coming weeks bringing about laws to
ban ear cropping and tail docking than discussing President Clinton's
sexual relations with THAT WOMEN . It would seem from here that the us
government is more bothered about what the president does in his spare
time than the enormous amount of cruel barbaric acts that are being
performed on animals in their country .
->nfact why have a dog at all if you fall into the category of having
>to mutilate the animal so it meets with YOUR specifications, or those of the breed standard.
>let the dog live with everything intact.. I personally would rather have to grab the cups off the
>coffee table to avoid being swiped on the floor by a wagging tail, than see some poor dog having
>just a stump. I have had various breeds over the years, Dobbies, Boxers, Spaniels and Labbies and
>where ever possible I have informed the breeder that I did not want my prospective pup to be
>mutilated. I have never renaged on a deal and have had all my dogs in a complete condition. It never
>hurt them and they were just as adorable as another animal.
>Only by breeders and those who show their animals in a total condition will the cruel practice of
>mutilating a perfectly healthy dog stop.
>ConnieD.
Very well said Connie but you are just wasting your time the cruel
sadistic dog breeders and dog owners of the US will not take one bit
of notice of what you say here .
Puddysmomm
AVRAMA GINGOLD wrote in message <8F69260.09A8...@relaynet.org>...
>Rachel, and Lori,
>
>Have either of you read anything about the history and
>function of the breeds commonly cropped and docked?
Avrama.....Im a Schnauzer owner/handler and have been involved with the
breed for 15 years.I LIKE
cropped ears and tails.To me its more attractive.So,you obviously did not
read my post correctly or perhaps you dont understand when someone is making
a point.
Rachel
Sheena
Cutter21 wrote in message
<01bdd9bc$e94f2880$8c29...@cchiker.mountain.net>...
>Need to know just how painful is ear cropping? I realize this is purely
>speculation on your part but I trust your judgment on this.
> Are there people who would not have their next dog's ears cropped due to
>the obvious pain the dog goes through? Or is it only bad for a short time
>and a dog can endure it pretty well then get over it quickly?
>I need to explain this to my children, who insist on NOT having our new
>minpin's ears done. I prefer to have it done, but not at the expense of
>terrible pain to the puppy.
I think dogs look better with normal looking ears. I don't know about the
pain, but I've never been a fan of cutting of large pieces of dog body
parts. That includes tail docking. It's more fun when your dog has a tail to
wag! But as for the pain, I don't know.
Sheena
Lori S. Mohr-Corrigan wrote in message ...
>>> But you do castrate and hysterectomize to avoid having to be
>
Come on you guys! If you're gonna show you're dog, you have to have his ears
cropped. If you're not gonna show the dog, then what really matters is what
kind of ears you prefer, pointy or hanging?
Connie Davis
you have hit the nail right on the head. YOU LIKE cropped tails and ears!!! You personally have
managed to sum up in those words what the majority of "mutilators" feel, Sheer vanity, and no matter
how much you love your animals, I bet THEY didn't LIKE having to go through any form of pain for
however long!! Infact anyone who could subject their pet to this "torture" isn't worthy of owning
one. It is a sickening practice which must be stopped, it appears that this is done just because a
dog doesn't fit in to the ideal animal the owner wants, just like colouring a dog, LOL Don't they
look as silly as the owners!! Each animal is an individual with charactaristics of that breed,
however they are born with ears and tails so why should you be unhappy with the way your dog looks
like. I bet had s/he known that for your own personal taste, s/he would have to be butchered, I bet
S/HE would certainly not have chosen you to care for their well being!!
ConnieD.
Puddysmomm wrote in message <6tc6p2$a...@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net>...
:
:AVRAMA GINGOLD wrote in message <8F69260.09A8...@relaynet.org>...
:
:
Connie Davis
Lovers and they way they BUTCHER their dogs about!!
Please read my reply to Puddsymom, and the remarks she has made concerning her views on her dogs,
She has acheived in 2 words the exact point that you and I and many others have been trying to make,
she states, I LIKE..... Just so glad that I am not owned by her because if I wereI would certainly
want to rearrange her ears, and then listen as she tells me that me removing part of her ears and
any other appendenge, doesn't hurt. Leave the dogs alone, what exactly have they done that requires
this barbaric treatment to continue. If they were meant to be without ears and tails then they would
be born that way. By the way Ron, I am English and Thank God that British Dogs are treated with
respect as far as having their ears chopped around. Next to stop has got to be the docking of
tails!!
PS. If I were a breeder I certainly would not export one of my dogs to the States after reading of
the ludicrous treatment and abuse that SOME and I repeat SOME of the so called "Dog Lovers" put
their dogs through.
Call themselves Dog Lovers, I wouldn't trust some of them to look after my goldfish incase they
bleached it bcause it didn't fit in with their decor!!!!
ConnieD.
tre...@newshunter-uk.easynet.co.uk wrote in message <35fa3d47...@news.easynet.co.uk>...
:On Thu, 10 Sep 1998 21:17:30 +0200, "Connie Davis"
Toni
DON'T do it. Those who see no problem, go ahead.
Yet another instance where nobody is going to change anybodies mind, so
to agree to disagree
is all that can be done.
Puddysmomm
Connie Davis wrote in message <6tdqqd$le7$1...@reader3.wxs.nl>...
>Rachael
>you have hit the nail right on the head. YOU LIKE cropped tails and ears!!!
You personally have
>managed to sum up in those words what the majority of "mutilators" feel,
Sheer vanity, and no matter
>how much you love your animals, I bet THEY didn't LIKE having to go through
any form of pain for
>however long!! Infact anyone who could subject their pet to this "torture"
isn't worthy of owning
>one. It is a sickening practice which must be stopped, it appears that this
is done just because a
>dog doesn't fit in to the ideal animal the owner wants, just like colouring
a dog, LOL Don't they
>look as silly as the owners!! Each animal is an individual with
charactaristics of that breed,
>however they are born with ears and tails so why should you be unhappy with
the way your dog looks
>like. I bet had s/he known that for your own personal taste, s/he would
have to be butchered, I bet
>S/HE would certainly not have chosen you to care for their well being!!
>
in the US.
Oh by the way,just the other day I colored one of my grooming clients
Bichons pink.Bet you have a problem with that too,right?
Rachel
Puddysmomm
Yet another instance where nobody is going to change anybodies mind, so
to agree to disagree
is all that can be done.
Exactly!
Rachel
ro...@newshunter-uk.easynet.co.uk
>
>Lori S. Mohr-Corrigan wrote in message ...
>>>> But you do castrate and hysterectomize to avoid having to be
>>careful to prevent unwanted breeding. Guess what--castration
>>and spaying are a lot more invasive surgeries <<
>>
>>But guess what? Those are not cosmetic surgeries, which is the point of
>>this particular discussion.
>
>
>Come on you guys! If you're gonna show you're dog, you have to have his ears
>cropped.
I would like to know just what compels a person to walk or run round a
show ring with a dog on the end of a lead in the first place, is it
not enough for people to own a beautiful dog without having to parade
it around a show ring and subjecting it to totally unnecessary
butchering in order to do so .
Ron .
ro...@manchester-uk.crosswinds.net
ro...@newshunter-uk.easynet.co.uk
ro...@newshunter-uk.easynet.co.uk
<connie...@wxs.nl> wrote:
>Rachael
>you have hit the nail right on the head. YOU LIKE cropped tails and ears!!! You personally have
>managed to sum up in those words what the majority of "mutilators" feel, Sheer vanity, and no matter
>how much you love your animals, I bet THEY didn't LIKE having to go through any form of pain for
>however long!! Infact anyone who could subject their pet to this "torture" isn't worthy of owning
>one.
My sentiments entirely Connie but you just cannot get it through the
thick skulls of the dog owning american public , I think what it is
Connie they get some sort of a kick out of the thoughts of subjecting
their dogs to withstand all the pain and suffering .
> It is a sickening practice which must be stopped, it appears that this is done just because a dog doesn't fit in to the >ideal animal the owner wants, just like colouring a dog, LOL Don't they
>look as silly as the owners!! Each animal is an individual with charactaristics of that breed,
>however they are born with ears and tails so why should you be unhappy with the way your dog looks
>like. I bet had s/he known that for your own personal taste, s/he would have to be butchered, I bet
>S/HE would certainly not have chosen you to care for their well being!!
I sure am glad I am not a dog living in the US Connie especially if I
where a Great Dane .
When people talk about spaying neutering and cropping and docking dogs
I think that they should have these totally unnecessary surgeries
performed on their husbands wives and children first and see how they
like it .
Ron .
ro...@manchester-uk.crosswinds.net
ro...@newshunter-uk.easynet.co.uk
ro...@newshunter-uk.easynet.co.uk
<connie...@wxs.nl> wrote:
> Ron, thanks for your input nd I agree fully with all you have said in regard to these so called Dog
>Lovers and they way they BUTCHER their dogs about!!
No problem Connie but I am afraid (and very sorry for the dogs that
they own) we will never change their very warped minds .
> If they were meant to be without ears and tails then they would
>be born that way. By the way Ron, I am English and Thank God that British Dogs are treated with
>respect as far as having their ears chopped around. Next to stop has got to be the docking of
>tails!!
And the stopping of unnecessary spaying and neutering except in order
to save life , If I can take my bitches out for walks four times a day
and prevent any dog from mating with them when in season so can every
other dog owner .
If I can prevent my OWN dog from mating with either of them when each
is in season so can every other dog owner , all this talk about
preventing various cancers and other illnesses by spaying and
neutering and preventing unwanted pregnancies is just a convenient
excuse for pure God damn laziness on the owners part .
If spaying and neutering were such a splendid remedy for preventing
testicular cancers and spaying prevented various cancers associated
with females , then why are we not all standing outside are various
hospitals with our not yet 12 months old children queuing to have
their various bits and pieces removed just IN CASE they get cancer
when they get older . By all means spay and neuter your dog if it is
going to save his /her life but not because you are to lazy to take
preventative measures when there is a need to or you are to lazy to
take him/her out for a walk and would sooner open the door and say out
you go for the day I have had you butchered so there is no chance of
you getting pregnant .
>Call themselves Dog Lovers, I wouldn't trust some of them to look after my goldfish incase they
>bleached it bcause it didn't fit in with their decor!!!!
>ConnieD.
He He He and some of these american knife happy B******S would do just
that Connie .
ro...@manchester-uk.crosswinds.net
ro...@newshunter-uk.easyne.co.uk
Connie Davis
on the end of a line. Bet the dog felt a total prat as well when s/he met up with his/her mates!!!
It is a DOG not a doll for you to dress up for goodness sake!! At least treat the animal with SOME
iota of respect.
You must be as MAD as the client if you would do it to the animal.Don't you have some sort of Animal
Protection Organizations in the States who actually prosecute owners for mutilating their dogs!!!
Not very quick in coming forward if you do and they don't!!! What sickos there are in this world
LOLOLOLOLOLOL
ConnieD. Owner of 2 BLACK ( geniune colour) Labradors, with tails and ears all in place!! Looking
good for any one to see.
Puddysmomm wrote in message <6teoj7$k...@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net>...
:
:Connie Davis wrote in message <6tdqqd$le7$1...@reader3.wxs.nl>...
:>Rachael
:>you have hit the nail right on the head. YOU LIKE cropped tails and ears!!!
:You personally have
:>managed to sum up in those words what the majority of "mutilators" feel,
:Sheer vanity, and no matter
:>how much you love your animals, I bet THEY didn't LIKE having to go through
:any form of pain for
:>however long!! Infact anyone who could subject their pet to this "torture"
:isn't worthy of owning
:>one. It is a sickening practice which must be stopped, it appears that this
:is done just because a
:>dog doesn't fit in to the ideal animal the owner wants, just like colouring
:a dog, LOL Don't they
:>look as silly as the owners!! Each animal is an individual with
:charactaristics of that breed,
:>however they are born with ears and tails so why should you be unhappy with
:the way your dog looks
:>like. I bet had s/he known that for your own personal taste, s/he would
:have to be butchered, I bet
:>S/HE would certainly not have chosen you to care for their well being!!
:>
:Get over it Connie.....it will continue whether I or anyone else show dogs
:>:
:>
:>
:
:
AVRAMA GINGOLD
S> <01bdd9bc$e94f2880$8c29...@cchiker.mountain.net>...
S> >Need to know just how painful is ear cropping? I realize this is purely
S> >speculation on your part but I trust your judgment on this.
S> > Are there people who would not have their next dog's ears cropped due to
S> >the obvious pain the dog goes through? Or is it only bad for a short time
S> >and a dog can endure it pretty well then get over it quickly?
S> >I need to explain this to my children, who insist on NOT having our new
S> >minpin's ears done. I prefer to have it done, but not at the expense of
S> >terrible pain to the puppy.
S>
SHeena, thanks for not answering the question.
Cropping is done under anesthesia, so the puppies do not
feel it. I've seen litters of Dobe puppies back to
merrily playing and chasing one another around within
a few minutes of waking up from the anesthesia.
As for docking, yes, it is more fun when your short coated
dog has a tail to wag, bang against the wall, get caught
in doors, and get badly injured. The docking or amputation
that will then have to take place will be much more fun
(ironic smile) when done at maturity than when done within
a day or two of birth.
S>
S> I think dogs look better with normal looking ears. I don't know about the
S> pain, but I've never been a fan of cutting of large pieces of dog body
S> parts. That includes tail docking. It's more fun when your dog has a tail to
S> wag! But as for the pain, I don't know.
S>
S>
S>
.. nfx v2.7 [C0000] An ounce of image is worth a pound of performance.
AVRAMA GINGOLD
may I suggest you get a dictionary so you know what butchery is.
I know you enjoy using hyperbole, but perhaps you might like to
read the portion of my message that you reprinted before your
reprinting of Rachel's note.
Have you ever observed an ear cropping, and have you ever observed
a litter of puppies within a short (say 1 hour) period of time
after their ears were cropped? Do you understand what is meant
by echolocation? Have you any understanding or comprehension of
the functions of various breeds? Does it enter into your world
view that a protection/deterrent dog should be one? Have you ever
seen a dog from a normally docked breed after its tail has been
injured repeatedly in the field or by knocking against walls?
Are you aware that different breeds have different type of coat?
Do you ever bother to think about the historical reasons for
breed standards, including normally docking and/or cropping,
or do you just have a knee-jerk reaction that makes you
spew out ignorant assumptions as if they were facts?
As an aside, what breed of dog do you have?
avrama & shomer*
avr...@moondog.com
* A properly docked and cropped Doberman Pinscher.
P.S. are you aware that The Kennel Club banned cropping of ears because
Prince Edward disliked it, and with due obsequiousness, The Kennel
Club banned cropping?
p.p.s. How can you hold Great Britain up as an example of enlightened
canine legislation when the country is merrily enforcing breed
bans, without due process for the owners of dogs deemed members
of undesired breeds? How do you justify the breed bans? Do
you really think impounding of a dog for years demonstrates
a love for dogs?
avrama & shomer
CD> Ron, thanks for your input nd I agree fully with all you have said in rega
CD> o these so called Dog
CD> Lovers and they way they BUTCHER their dogs about!!
CD> Please read my reply to Puddsymom, and the remarks she has made concerning
CD> views on her dogs,
CD> She has acheived in 2 words the exact point that you and I and many others
CD> been trying to make,
CD> she states, I LIKE..... Just so glad that I am not owned by her because if
CD> reI would certainly
CD> want to rearrange her ears, and then listen as she tells me that me removin
CD> rt of her ears and
CD> any other appendenge, doesn't hurt. Leave the dogs alone, what exactly hav
CD> ey done that requires
CD> this barbaric treatment to continue. If they were meant to be without ears
CD> tails then they would
CD> be born that way. By the way Ron, I am English and Thank God that British D
CD> are treated with
CD> respect as far as having their ears chopped around. Next to stop has got to
CD> the docking of
CD> tails!!
CD>
CD> PS. If I were a breeder I certainly would not export one of my dogs to the
CD> es after reading of
CD> the ludicrous treatment and abuse that SOME and I repeat SOME of the so cal
CD> "Dog Lovers" put
CD> their dogs through.
CD> Call themselves Dog Lovers, I wouldn't trust some of them to look after my
CD> fish incase they
CD> bleached it bcause it didn't fit in with their decor!!!!
CD> ConnieD.
CD> tre...@newshunter-uk.easynet.co.uk wrote in message <35fa3d47.1312000@news.
CD> net.co.uk>...
CD> :On Thu, 10 Sep 1998 21:17:30 +0200, "Connie Davis"
CD> :<connie...@wxs.nl> wrote:
CD> :
CD> :>I may not be any oil painting but then I can choose if I want to change m
CD> pearance, The dog
CD> :>isn't given that choice is s/he? Just for the vanity of the owner or bree
CD> and congrats to those
CD> :>breeders, and vets who refuse to carry out this practice.
CD> :Connie it is not good enough for vets and breeders to voluntarily
CD> :refuse to crop and dock the practice needs to be banned by law as ear
CD> :cropping is here in the UK and I suspect other parts of europe also,
CD> :tail docking should also be banned and it is long past time moves
CD> :where made in Europe to ban this cruel barbaric practice also.
CD> :Ear cropping is mainly practiced in the US and I think the US senators
CD> :would be better employed in the coming weeks bringing about laws to
CD> :ban ear cropping and tail docking than discussing President Clinton's
CD> :sexual relations with THAT WOMEN . It would seem from here that the us
CD> :government is more bothered about what the president does in his spare
CD> :time than the enormous amount of cruel barbaric acts that are being
CD> :performed on animals in their country .
CD> :
CD> :
CD> :
CD> :->nfact why have a dog at all if you fall into the category of having
CD> :>to mutilate the animal so it meets with YOUR specifications, or those of
CD> breed standard.
CD> :>let the dog live with everything intact.. I personally would rather have
CD> rab the cups off the
CD> :>coffee table to avoid being swiped on the floor by a wagging tail, than s
CD> ome poor dog having
CD> :>just a stump. I have had various breeds over the years, Dobbies, Boxers,
CD> iels and Labbies and
CD> :>where ever possible I have informed the breeder that I did not want my pr
CD> ctive pup to be
CD> :>mutilated. I have never renaged on a deal and have had all my dogs in a c
CD> ete condition. It
CD> never
CD> :>hurt them and they were just as adorable as another animal.
CD> :>Only by breeders and those who show their animals in a total condition wi
CD> he cruel practice of
CD> :>mutilating a perfectly healthy dog stop.
CD> :>ConnieD.
CD> :Very well said Connie but you are just wasting your time the cruel
CD> :sadistic dog breeders and dog owners of the US will not take one bit
CD> :of notice of what you say here .
CD> :
CD> :Ron .
CD> :ro...@manchester-uk.crosswinds.net
CD>
CD>
CD>
.. nfx v2.7 [C0000] <<Qu'est-que ce apprivoiser?>> dit le petit reynard.
AVRAMA GINGOLD
don't believe that anesthesia exists?
avrama & shomer
AVRAMA GINGOLD
R> >be born that way. By the way Ron, I am English and Thank God that British D
R> are treated with
R> >respect as far as having their ears chopped around. Next to stop has got to
R> the docking of
R> >tails!!
Of course if they are American Staffordshire Terriers, Tosa Inu,
or various other breeds their EARS are left intact while they
are destroyed.
R> hospitals with our not yet 12 months old children queuing to have
R> their various bits and pieces removed just IN CASE they get cancer
R> when they get older . By all means spay and neuter your dog if it is
R> going to save his /her life but not because you are to lazy to take
R> preventative measures when there is a need to or you are to lazy to
R> take him/her out for a walk and would sooner open the door and say out
R> you go for the day I have had you butchered so there is no chance of
R> you getting pregnant .
You have the wrong country, Ron. It is in England that dogs are
permitted to roam freely, far more than in the States. Admittedly,
I enjoy walking past half a dozen dogs waiting patiently for their
owners as I go into a pub, but I have yet to enter a pub in the
States and find unleashed dogs waiting outside while their masters
booze it up inside.
.. nfx v2.7 [C0000] Don't blame--train!
AVRAMA GINGOLD
R> ro...@manchester-uk.crosswinds.net
R> ro...@newshunter-uk.easynet.co.uk
R>
I would like to know what compells a country, once famed
for being comprised of dog lovers, to pass breed specific
laws banning certain breeds, and impounding members of those
breeds and ultimately euthanizing them with no regard to the
actual behavior of the individual dog.
.. nfx v2.7 [C0000] Loyalty: of dog to pack, and of pack to dog.
Chris Kosmakos
:
: I would like to know just what compels a person to walk or run round a
: show ring with a dog on the end of a lead in the first place, is it
: not enough for people to own a beautiful dog without having to parade
: it around a show ring and subjecting it to totally unnecessary
: butchering in order to do so .
1. Enjoyment of an activity they can participate in with their dog.
2. Part of the determination of which of the best examples of a breed
should be chosen to be bred.
Having a beautiful dog and enjoying it is enough for personal enjoyment
but not enough for the kind of love of a breed that goes beyond individual
dogs and into breeding.
Lynn K.
--
chri...@netcom.com
Chris Kosmakos
: When people talk about spaying neutering and cropping and docking dogs
: I think that they should have these totally unnecessary surgeries
: performed on their husbands wives and children first and see how they
: like it .
Anthropomorphism at its finest.
I've never been able to figure out how the UK produces both so many fine
trainers and competitors and then so many people who see dogs as people
in little fur suits. You have the contradiction of the excesses of the
RSCPA and the routine transport of working dogs in the boot of a car.
The stupidity of the Dangerous Dog Act compared to the education efforts
of the Council of Docked Breeds. I just don't get it.
Lynn K.
--
chri...@netcom.com
Connie Davis
Before I get to the gist of your letter would please kind enough to NOTE that I personally made NO
COMMENT WHATSOEVER in regard to President Clinton and his worries or any mention of what the US
Government should be interested in. Make sure of your facts before aligning me with any comments
concerning said man and government.
Now to the points you raise in your letter.
>>:Connie,
>>:may I suggest you get a dictionary so you know what butchery is.
BUTCHERY (ref: Oxford Dictionary)... noun. butchers trade, needless or cruel killing.
>>:I know you enjoy using hyperbole
In what way have I used rhetorical exaggeration, concerning the use of this butchery on animals?
>>, but perhaps you might like to
>>:read the portion of my message that you reprinted before your
>>:reprinting of Rachel's note.
Now I am totally lost ?????
:
>>:Have you ever observed an ear cropping, and have you ever observed
>>:a litter of puppies within a short (say 1 hour) period of time
>>:after their ears were cropped?
I am delighted to say that I have never seen this so called cropping carried out, nor do I ever wish
to!!!
>>>Do you understand what is meant
>>>:by echolocation?
Oh , you mean location of objects by reflected sound, of course!!
>>> Have you any understanding or comprehension of
>>>:the functions of various breeds?
Naturally, but an ENTIRE dog, not one brutalized to improve appearance or working ability. Surely
during the course of evolution, nature itself will decide which parts of a creature should be
warrented as necessary or superfluous to requirements, not you or I.
>>> Does it enter into your world
>>>:view that a protection/deterrent dog should be one?
You seem to be getting yourself in a muddle here, just what is the exact point of this part of your
letter?
>> Have you ever
>>:seen a dog from a normally docked breed after its tail has been
>>:injured repeatedly in the field or by knocking against walls?
So what you are saying here is that ALL creatures should have appendages removed as there is the
possibility that they may sustain damage, I must remember to ask at my local hospital if amputations
are performed on new babies to eliminate any risk that they might be damaged during their play/work
time!!!
>>>:Are you aware that different breeds have different type of coat?
Considering that I have had dogs for more years than I care to remember, I do know that different
breeds have different fur/hair. Just like humans
:
>>>:Do you ever bother to think about the historical reasons for
>>>:breed standards, including normally docking and/or cropping,
>>>:or do you just have a knee-jerk reaction that makes you
>>>:spew out ignorant assumptions as if they were facts?
Excuse me, I am NOT living in the past but in 1998, historically document breed standards may have
ben appropriate for then, but we have moved on somewhat since then or are you still living in the
past? In this day and age it is not necessary to inflict this treatment on any animal, perhaps when
we used to rely on our dogs as an aid to hunting then I MAY have agreed with you but since then we
have shops, or stores I believe you call them, and I should think that dogs are no longer required
to help provide the hare, rabbit or deer for the table.
:
>>>:As an aside, what breed of dog do you have?
I have two Labradors who are entire and whole. One complete with "kink" in his tail and the other 3
cms. below "breed standard", but I would not dream of having either of them undergo leg lengthening
or de-kinking surgery etc, unless for medical reasons!!
My dogs of the past have been,
A doberman/GSD X,
OE Sheepdog,
2 Cocker Spaniels,
2 Cairn terriers,
3 Boxers, one whose tail had been docked and left one joint too long thus causing her pain each time
she sat too quickly!!!
2 Welsh Border Collies
2 other Labradors,
6 Heinz 57 variaties of various sizes!!
None of them were ever mutilated if I had them from puppy stage, I made that arrangement BEFORE I
would pay any deposit for a puppy!! I NEVER went back on an agreement either.
:
:avrama & shomer*
:avr...@moondog.com
:
: * A properly docked and cropped Doberman Pinscher.
:
:P.S. are you aware that The Kennel Club banned cropping of ears because
: Prince Edward disliked it, and with due obsequiousness, The Kennel
: Club banned cropping?
I did not know but THANK GOODNESS he stood up and was listened to!
:
:p.p.s. How can you hold Great Britain up as an example of enlightened
: canine legislation when the country is merrily enforcing breed
: bans, without due process for the owners of dogs deemed members
: of undesired breeds? How do you justify the breed bans? Do
: you really think impounding of a dog for years demonstrates
: a love for dogs?
I DO NOT and never have agreed that certain dog breeds should banned, I have actively campaigned for
the right of the dog to live not be killed because it was un-muzzled as it was vomitting!!
I AM actively engaged in campaigning for the abolishment of enforced quarantine and until that comes
about I shall not return to England, with my dogs. I abhor what is going on in the UK with regard to
the incarceration of dogs and cats, So don't hold me up for that one !!!!:
..
:CD> :On Thu, 10 Sep 1998 21:17:30 +0200, "Connie Davis"
:CD> :<connie...@wxs.nl> wrote:
:CD> :
:CD> :>I may not be any oil painting but then I can choose if I want to change m
:CD> pearance, The dog
:CD> :>isn't given that choice is s/he? Just for the vanity of the owner or bree
:CD> and congrats to those
:CD> :>breeders, and vets who refuse to carry out this practice.
I am not responsible for the following comment attributed to me by the instigator of the original
letter.
:CD> :Connie it is not good enough for vets and breeders to voluntarily
:CD> :refuse to crop and dock the practice needs to be banned by law as ear
:CD> :cropping is here in the UK and I suspect other parts of europe also,
:CD> :tail docking should also be banned and it is long past time moves
:CD> :where made in Europe to ban this cruel barbaric practice also.
:CD> :Ear cropping is mainly practiced in the US and I think the US senators
:CD> :would be better employed in the coming weeks bringing about laws to
:CD> :ban ear cropping and tail docking than discussing President Clinton's
:CD> :sexual relations with THAT WOMEN . It would seem from here that the us
:CD> :government is more bothered about what the president does in his spare
:CD> :time than the enormous amount of cruel barbaric acts that are being
:CD> :performed on animals in their country .
I wrote the following!!
:CD> :
Tammy H
again, but am I not correct in pointing out that what one person thinks is
wrong, another is vehemently supporting? And if the UK didn't have laws
against ear cropping, don't you think you'd have people who would chose to
have their dogs' ears cropped? As far as spaying/neutering goes, maybe you
should spend some time in a local animal shelter and see how many dogs get
put to sleep and tell me that that is more humane than preventing a dog from
breeding in the first place.
Just 2 red cents from this Yank.
Tammy
ro...@newshunter-uk.easynet.co.uk wrote in message
<35fdd6f9...@news.easynet.co.uk>...
>If spaying and neutering were such a splendid remedy for preventing
>testicular cancers and spaying prevented various cancers associated
>with females , then why are we not all standing outside are various
>hospitals with our not yet 12 months old children queuing to have
>their various bits and pieces removed just IN CASE they get cancer
Puddysmomm
Connie Davis wrote in message <6tg6qr$a6j$1...@reader2.wxs.nl>...
>ROFLMAO Bichon pink YUCK, bet the owner look a real nerd walking down the
street with a pink Floozie
>on the end of a line. Bet the dog felt a total prat as well when s/he met
up with his/her mates!!!
>It is a DOG not a doll for you to dress up for goodness sake!! At least
treat the animal with SOME
>iota of respect.
>You must be as MAD as the client if you would do it to the animal.Don't you
have some sort of Animal
>Protection Organizations in the States who actually prosecute owners for
mutilating their dogs!!!
>Not very quick in coming forward if you do and they don't!!! What sickos
there are in this world
>LOLOLOLOLOLOL
>ConnieD. Owner of 2 BLACK ( geniune colour) Labradors, with tails and ears
all in place!! Looking
>good for any one to see.
>
Oh get a grip for crying out loud....The dog doesn't know the
difference....and its FOOD COLORING...sheesh.
You must be a blast at parties...get a sense of humor.(and for the
record,the dog was happy as a clam)
Ta Ta.
Rachel
Chris Kosmakos
:
: Bet the dog felt a total prat as well when s/he met up with his/her mates!!!
: It is a DOG not a doll for you to dress up for goodness sake!! At least
: treat the animal with SOME iota of respect.
Talk about anthropomorphism! IMO the greatest disrespect you can show a
working breed dog is to deny him a meaningful job that uses all those
carefully-honed instinctive drives. So, Connie, can I assume that you
have hunted and herded with all those retrievers and herding dogs you've
owned?
Lynn K.
--
chri...@netcom.com
AVRAMA
CD> personally made NO
CD> COMMENT WHATSOEVER in regard to President Clinton and his worries or any me
CD> n of what the US
CD> Government should be interested in. Make sure of your facts before aligning
CD> with any comments
CD> concerning said man and government.
Nor did I speak to you about Clinton. As far as I am concerned,
the only thing about Clinton that is relevant to any of the
dog groups is his dog. Since I am not a Labrador person,
I cannot really evaluate him, other than saying he seems
a healthy pup in the midst of the adolescent gawkies.
CD> Now to the points you raise in your letter.
CD>
CD> >>:Connie,
CD> >>:may I suggest you get a dictionary so you know what butchery is.
CD> >>:Have you ever observed an ear cropping, and have you ever observed
CD> >>:a litter of puppies within a short (say 1 hour) period of time
CD> >>:after their ears were cropped?
CD>
CD> I am delighted to say that I have never seen this so called cropping carrie
CD> t, nor do I ever wish
CD> to!!!
In other words, you do not want your opinion changed by any
possible exposure to what REALLY happens.
CD> >>>:the functions of various breeds?
CD>
CD> Naturally, but an ENTIRE dog, not one brutalized to improve appearance or w
CD> ng ability. Surely
CD> during the course of evolution, nature itself will decide which parts of a
CD> ture should be
CD> warrented as necessary or superfluous to requirements, not you or I.
Yes, like nature made sure the appendix is needed. In the original
animal, Canis lupus, ears are erect in adulthood. Only in infancy
does the wolf have floppy ears. Our dogs reflect neoteny, the
retention of infantile characteristics, in many respects. The
hound breeds, for the most part, have hanging ears because they
rely on scent (and in some cases on sight) to follow prey.
Protection dogs, on the other paw, have to detect APPROACHING
animals (or, in today's world, two-legged animals). The greater
the distance at which the approacher can be detected, the better
able the guard dog is to do his job, even if all he must do is
sound an alarm (bark), and act as a deterrent.
CD> >>> Does it enter into your world
CD> >>>:view that a protection/deterrent dog should be one?
CD>
CD> You seem to be getting yourself in a muddle here, just what is the exact po
CD> of this part of your
CD> letter?
I am writing from many years of experience of living with one
such protection breed. It is true that in the real world, as
opposed to the reel world, a dog's main protective function is
to act as a deterrent, but the sight of an alerted animal and
the sound of one, is very much a deterrent. And, as an aside,
admitting that many people believe an uncropped Dobe gives a
much "softer" appearance, the sight of the cropped Dobe with
ears erect is much more threatening--and when I am walking outside
late at night, or someone contemplating robbing my apartment
sees that same "sharp" appearing animal standing in the window,
he is much more of a deterrent than a softer appearing dog.
CD> >> Have you ever
CD> >>:seen a dog from a normally docked breed after its tail has been
CD> >>:injured repeatedly in the field or by knocking against walls?
CD>
CD> So what you are saying here is that ALL creatures should have appendages re
CD> d as there is the
CD> possibility that they may sustain damage, I must remember to ask at my loca
CD> spital if amputations
CD> are performed on new babies to eliminate any risk that they might be damage
CD> ring their play/work
CD> time!!!
Boy, you are stooping to reductio ad absurdum--where did I say ALL?
I did refer to "normally docked breed" such as many field animals
whose tails get injured while hunting, or breeds such as the Dobe
and the Boxer who have very thin coats and "gay" tails that are
highly susceptible to injury. I have seen Dalmatians and Danes
who have had to have portions of their tails amputated as adults
because of injury.
Now before you come up with the inane statement that only dogs who
will be used for hunting should be docked, let me remind you that
docking is done at a very early age. To wait until the animal is
five or six months old, and its future decided, means performing
an amputation, rather than cutting through cartilege that is not
yet firmed.
CD> >>>:Are you aware that different breeds have different type of coat?
CD>
CD> Considering that I have had dogs for more years than I care to remember, I
CD> now that different
CD> breeds have different fur/hair. Just like humans
CD> :
CD> >>>:Do you ever bother to think about the historical reasons for
CD> >>>:breed standards, including normally docking and/or cropping,
CD> >>>:or do you just have a knee-jerk reaction that makes you
CD> >>>:spew out ignorant assumptions as if they were facts?
CD>
CD> Excuse me, I am NOT living in the past but in 1998, historically document b
CD> standards may have
CD> ben appropriate for then, but we have moved on somewhat since then or are y
CD> till living in the
CD> past? In this day and age it is not necessary to inflict this treatment on
CD> animal, perhaps when
CD> we used to rely on our dogs as an aid to hunting then I MAY have agreed wi
CD> ou but since then we
CD> have shops, or stores I believe you call them, and I should think that dogs
CD> no longer required
CD> to help provide the hare, rabbit or deer for the table.
Wake up and smell the roses--many dogs are still used in hunting,
or in field trials (which do not involve killing prey, but do
use all the other skills). Dogs are still functional for protection,
or do you feel that we should wait until AFTER something has happened
and then rely on the police?
Oh, and in case you didn't know, in 1998 anesthesia is used.
CD> >>>:As an aside, what breed of dog do you have?
CD>
CD> I have two Labradors who are entire and whole. One complete with "kink" in
CD> tail and the other 3
CD> cms. below "breed standard", but I would not dream of having either of them
CD> ergo leg lengthening
CD> or de-kinking surgery etc, unless for medical reasons!!
You know, you are being very absurd.
CD> 3 Boxers, one whose tail had been docked and left one joint too long thus c
CD> ng her pain each time
CD> she sat too quickly!!!
LEngth of the tail would not do that--you are against docking, aren't
you--what it sounds like is either an improper job of docking (and
probably done after the 2-3 days old optimum limit), or
improper aftercare, or poor tail set, or (most likely) the
problem was in her hips and not her tail.
CD>
CD> None of them were ever mutilated if I had them from puppy stage, I made tha
CD> rangement BEFORE I
CD> would pay any deposit for a puppy!! I NEVER went back on an agreement eithe
CD> :
CD> :avrama & shomer*
CD> :avr...@moondog.com
CD> :
CD> : * A properly docked and cropped Doberman Pinscher.
CD> :
CD> :P.S. are you aware that The Kennel Club banned cropping of ears because
CD> : Prince Edward disliked it, and with due obsequiousness, The Kennel
CD> : Club banned cropping?
CD>
CD> I did not know but THANK GOODNESS he stood up and was listened to!
According to histories I've read, this was not for any
philosophical reason--Victoria's son was not exactly the
world's greatest humanitarian--but because he did not like
the look of a cropped dog.
CD> :
CD> :p.p.s. How can you hold Great Britain up as an example of enlightened
CD> : canine legislation when the country is merrily enforcing breed
CD> : bans, without due process for the owners of dogs deemed members
CD> : of undesired breeds? How do you justify the breed bans? Do
CD> : you really think impounding of a dog for years demonstrates
CD> : a love for dogs?
CD>
Incidentally, I gather you do not consider the term
mutilation (which you use so cavalierly) to be hyperbole.
Speaking of mutilation, as you consider surgery not immediately
necessary, do you spay (ovariohysterectomize) and neuter (castrate)
your dogs. If so, how do you justify such "butchery," when
being careful can prevent unwanted breedings.
CD> :.. nfx v2.7 [C0000] <<Qu'est-que ce apprivoiser?>> dit le petit reynard.
Avrama & Shomer
.. nfx v2.7 [C0000] There is nothing like a Dobe!
James L. Ryan
Great Danes and Doberman Pinschers, confide in me that the only reason
they crop ears or, in the case of the Doberman Pinschers, dock tails, is
because they feel that it is necessary to do so to be successful in the
show ring. These same people have gone on to say that their preference
would be to not subject their dogs to this procedure. Amongst the reasns
stated for such a preference are such things as concerns over the short
term trauma inflicted on a puppy, long term effects on temperament, and
the possible diminution of show potential because of a less than
successful surgery. My observation as a one time resident of the United
Kingdom, and as a person who has attended a great many dog shows in that
country, is that the lack of cropping has done little, if anything, to
diminish the popularity of the "normally" cropped breeds, either as pets
or for show. I will conjecture that if cropping and docking were suddenly
outlawed in the United States that in about three years time all will have
been forgotten and breeders will get on with the job of producing and
showing fine specimens of their breed, albeit with natural ears and tails.
--
James L. Ryan -- bosw...@waterw.com
r...@newshunter-uk.easynet.co.uk
<puddy...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>
>Connie Davis wrote in message <6tg6qr$a6j$1...@reader2.wxs.nl>...
>>ROFLMAO Bichon pink YUCK, bet the owner look a real nerd walking down the
>street with a pink Floozie
>>on the end of a line. Bet the dog felt a total prat as well when s/he met
>up with his/her mates!!!
>>It is a DOG not a doll for you to dress up for goodness sake!! At least
>treat the animal with SOME
>>iota of respect.
>>You must be as MAD as the client if you would do it to the animal.Don't you
>have some sort of Animal
>>Protection Organizations in the States who actually prosecute owners for
>mutilating their dogs!!!
>>Not very quick in coming forward if you do and they don't!!! What sickos
>there are in this world
>>LOLOLOLOLOLOL
>>ConnieD. Owner of 2 BLACK ( geniune colour) Labradors, with tails and ears
>all in place!! Looking
>>good for any one to see.
>>
>Connie,
>Oh get a grip for crying out loud....The dog doesn't know the
>difference....and its FOOD COLORING...sheesh.
>You must be a blast at parties...get a sense of humor.(and for the
>record,the dog was happy as a clam)
>Ta Ta.
>
> Rachel
>
No it is YOU who should get a grip Rachel Connie is quite right people
who dress up their dogs to look stupid make me throw up also , if you
want to dye your hair sky blue pink then do so by all means but leave
your dog just has it is .
Ron .
r...@newshunter-uk.easynet.co.uk
> Oh, and in case you didn't know, in 1998 anesthesia is used.
And in case you do not know Averama or you pretend you do not know or
you like to sweep that fact under the carpet , it is 1998 and the
anesthesia used by vets in 1998 can and still does kill so why for
gods sake use it on a dog just to perform cosmetic operations or to
perform operations to remove parts of the dogs body JUST IN CASE IT
GETS CANCER OF THIS OR THAT OR THE OTHER .
The dog may not get cancer but it might just die from the use of
anesthesia for NO GOOD REASON .
Ron .
ro...@manchester-uk.crosswinds.net
ro...@newshunter.easynet.co.uk
James L. Ryan
E.Holmes or R. Nelson Ruffin" <fmka...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
[responding to my assertion that a prohibition of cropping and docking
would not lead to a significant decline in the popularity of a breed.]
> However there is ample evidence to prove you wrong in the Scandinavian
> countries where cessation of docking has caused a rapid diminishment in
> some breeds who could ill afford the drop in popularity.
>
Can you quantify this "ample evidence?" What breeds have experienced
"diminishment" and to what extent?
Nancy E.Holmes or R. Nelson Ruffin
countries where cessation of docking has caused a rapid diminishment in
some breeds who could ill afford the drop in popularity.
James L. Ryan <bosw...@waterw.com> wrote in article
<bosworth-140...@access2.accsyst.com>...
Puddysmomm
<36027e18...@news.easynet.co.uk>...
>No it is YOU who should get a grip Rachel Connie is quite right people
>who dress up their dogs to look stupid make me throw up also , if you
>want to dye your hair sky blue pink then do so by all means but leave
>your dog just has it is .
>Ron .
Ok,without making myself laugh out loud by the response to dying a Bichon
pink...let me remind you that
first of all,I do not like pet clothing,and wouldn't use it on my own
dogs,nor would I dye any of my own dog's hair.
Second of all,this was a GROOMING CLIENT who specifically asked me to do
this for her.She even supplied the food coloring herself.
Lastly,its a NON PAINFUL process which washes out in a couple of
washings,and does not do harm to the animal in anyway.Dogs dont know the
emotion of embarrassment,so stop placing your human emotions on these
animals.
People have fun with their pets,and enjoy them immensely...let them do
what they will,as long as its for fun,and causes no harm.
You on the other hand might want to try dying YOUR hair pink,it might
help you to not take yourself so
seriously...heaven knows I'm not. :>)
;)Rachel
Man's best friend is his Dogma
AVRAMA GINGOLD
JR> outlawed in the United States that in about three years time all will have
JR> been forgotten and breeders will get on with the job of producing and
JR> showing fine specimens of their breed, albeit with natural ears and tails.
When cropping was outlawed in the Scandinavian countries,
Dobe registrations decreased sizably.
.. nfx v2.7 [C0000] No faith has never been broken, except that of a dog.
r...@newshunter-uk.easynet.co.uk
wrote:
>Hmmm, isn't that the aguement for circumcision? Sorry to bring that up
>again, but am I not correct in pointing out that what one person thinks is
>wrong, another is vehemently supporting? And if the UK didn't have laws
>against ear cropping, don't you think you'd have people who would chose to
>have their dogs' ears cropped? As far as spaying/neutering goes, maybe you
>should spend some time in a local animal shelter and see how many dogs get
>put to sleep and tell me that that is more humane than preventing a dog from
>breeding in the first place.
For the love of God can you yanks not get it into your thick skulls
that if a male is prevented from getting anywhere near a female when
in season then no breeding will or can take place .
Or is it that you need some sex education lessons :))) .
Ron .
AVRAMA GINGOLD
R> > Oh, and in case you didn't know, in 1998 anesthesia is used.
R> And in case you do not know Averama or you pretend you do not know or
R> you like to sweep that fact under the carpet , it is 1998 and the
R> anesthesia used by vets in 1998 can and still does kill so why for
R> gods sake use it on a dog just to perform cosmetic operations or to
R> perform operations to remove parts of the dogs body JUST IN CASE IT
R> GETS CANCER OF THIS OR THAT OR THE OTHER .
R> The dog may not get cancer but it might just die from the use of
R> anesthesia for NO GOOD REASON .
Ron,
The anesthesia that is used is typically isoflurane (may be misspelled).
Upon occasion, local anesthesia is used, which has a virtually zero
mortality rate.
avrama
R>
R> Ron .
R> ro...@manchester-uk.crosswinds.net
R> ro...@newshunter.easynet.co.uk
R>
.. nfx v2.7 [C0000] People have all the theories;dogs have all the facts.
AVRAMA GINGOLD
T> where banned and is it not about time people in the US stopped
T> bothering about what President Clinton has been doing in his off duty
T> time and concentrated more on what some of you people are doing to
T> your dogs .
T> Ron .
T> ro...@manchester-uk.crosswinds.net
Ron,
Aside from complaining about surgical sterilization of dogs
and cropping/docking, do you also support the Dangerous Dog
Act (breed specific and having nothing to do with the
actual behavior of the dog) of Great Britain? Nothing
like making certain the dog has not been docked or
cropped when you euthanize it for being the wrong breed.
.. nfx v2.7 [C0000] We are all in the gutter, but some ... are looking at st
AVRAMA GINGOLD
JR> > countries where cessation of docking has caused a rapid diminishment in
JR> > some breeds who could ill afford the drop in popularity.
JR> >
JR>
JR> Can you quantify this "ample evidence?" What breeds have experienced
JR> "diminishment" and to what extent?
JR>
Doberman Pinschers (or as known in Europe, the Dobermann). During
the first year alone, the number dropped more than 20%. The last
I heard is that there are now fewer than 50% as many as before
the banning of cropping.
avrama
.. nfx v2.7 [C0000] Blessed is s/he who has earned the love of a Dobe.
Lori S. Mohr-Corrigan
that if a male is prevented from getting anywhere near a female when
in season then no breeding will or can take place <<
As has been stated repeatedly ad nauseum, if this were a perfect world where
EVERYONE followed your proposed level of responsibility, there would be
substance to your argument for no s/n. But since this is not Utopia or
anything remotely close, the only method by which all the irresponsible
people (and, yes, even those of us who are *ultra* responsible but are
_still_ prone to the occasional accident) will not add to the pet
overpopulation problem is through s/n. Period.
Lori
Lori S. Mohr-Corrigan
Typically? Any vet I've associated with uses that only upon a client's
request or when there are existing organ problems.
Lori
James L. Ryan
avrama....@relaynet.org (AVRAMA GINGOLD) wrote:
> JR> > However there is ample evidence to prove you wrong in the Scandinavian
> JR> > countries where cessation of docking has caused a rapid diminishment in
> JR> > some breeds who could ill afford the drop in popularity.
> JR> >
> JR>
> JR> Can you quantify this "ample evidence?" What breeds have experienced
> JR> "diminishment" and to what extent?
> JR>
> Doberman Pinschers (or as known in Europe, the Dobermann). During
> the first year alone, the number dropped more than 20%. The last
> I heard is that there are now fewer than 50% as many as before
> the banning of cropping.
> avrama
Can you furnish a reference which substantiates the decline of Dobermann
registrations?
AVRAMA GINGOLD
LM>
LM> Typically? Any vet I've associated with uses that only upon a client's
LM> request or when there are existing organ problems.
LM>
LM> Lori
LM>
Any vet who does not automatically use it on Dobes (or Greyhounds
or Collies, and probably other breeds I don't know offhand)
is not exactly up to date in his/her medical knowledge.
Many of the vets I know here in the city (NYC) automatically
use isoflurane because of the number of breeds sensitive
to other anesthetics and its safety for all, including
non-sensitive breeds.
avrama
.. nfx v2.7 [C0000] If I have but one life to lead, let my lead be on a Dobe
AVRAMA GINGOLD
JR> > JR> > countries where cessation of docking has caused a rapid diminishme
JR> n
JR> > JR> > some breeds who could ill afford the drop in popularity.
JR> > JR> >
JR> > JR>
JR> > JR> Can you quantify this "ample evidence?" What breeds have experienced
JR> > JR>
JR> > Doberman Pinschers (or as known in Europe, the Dobermann). During
JR> > I heard is that there are now fewer than 50% as many as before
JR> > the banning of cropping.
JR> > avrama
JR>
JR> Can you furnish a reference which substantiates the decline of Dobermann
JR> registrations?
JR>
Assorted news articles in dog magazines such as CANINE CHRONICLE,
DOG WORLD, not to mention newspapers. You may also contact the
appropriate national breed clubs for the registration figures by
year. (I think, but am not certain, that FCI will also supply
such figures. The national clubs definitely have the information.)
avrama & shomer
.. nfx v2.7 [C0000] Le plus ca change, le plus c'est la meme chose
Nanna Ojanen
>
> When cropping was outlawed in the Scandinavian countries,
> Dobe registrations decreased sizably.
>
affected the annual amount of registrations less than expected. Only
dobermann breeding has almost stopped." (Koiramme-magazine 1/98, mind
the translation...). In -96 dobermann was 16th in most popular
breeds-list, in -97 only 35th. Other previously cropped breeds: Great
Dane -96 34th, -97 22th. Boxer -96 23th, -97 23th. Rottweiler -96 11th,
-97 8th.
So, why only dobes?
Nanna
se...@probikeparts.com
"Lori S. Mohr-Corrigan" <cocker...@email.msn.com> wrote:
>
> As has been stated repeatedly ad nauseum, if this were a perfect world where
> EVERYONE followed your proposed level of responsibility, there would be
> substance to your argument for no s/n. But since this is not Utopia or
> anything remotely close, the only method by which all the irresponsible
> people (and, yes, even those of us who are *ultra* responsible but are
> _still_ prone to the occasional accident) will not add to the pet
> overpopulation problem is through s/n. Period.
>
> Lori
>
That's bullshit, while I won't argue that s\n is certainly the responsible
choice for most pets. the suggestion that accidental breeding is a
signifigant contributer to the pet over population problem is ludicrous(sp).
There is a pet over population problem because people buy dogs that they
later don't want. It is simple economics as long as people buy dogs, people
will breed them. Anyone who has ever purchased a dog from a petstore, or
even a breeder is contributing to the problem, because they could have gotten
a dog from rescue or the SPCA, but because the dog they want is not available
there, breedings take place to satisfy our urges for "better" dogs.
Now backyard breeding by unqualified kooks is another story... and a much
better argument(sp) for s\n.
sean
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum
Lori S. Mohr-Corrigan
responsible choice for most pets. the suggestion that accidental breeding
is a signifigant contributer to the pet over population problem is
ludicrous(sp) <<
Thanks for your opinion, Sean. However, until you've spent any time working
with shelters, it will remain just your opinion. Currently here at our
facility, we have several females in various stages of pregnancy who were
dumped on our doorstep because the people didn't want to deal with the fact
that she got pregnant. Of course, they never entertained the concept of
having her fixed to prevent the problem in the first place, but they DO
subscribe to the theory that dogs are meant to roam. Unaltered dogs who are
allowed to roam contribute significantly to the pet overpopulation problem.
Remember that a single female does not bear a single offspring -- which
exacerbates the situation exponentially with each new litter. A 1
1/2-year-old Lab who was found wandering in an unpopulated area of town just
gave birth to 12!!! puppies.
Can you offer some concrete information that supports your opinion?
Lori
ro...@manchester-uk.crosswinds.net
Ryan) wrote:
>In article <8F6E4BB.09A8...@relaynet.org>,
>avrama....@relaynet.org (AVRAMA GINGOLD) wrote:
>
>> JR> > However there is ample evidence to prove you wrong in the Scandinavian
>> JR> > countries where cessation of docking has caused a rapid diminishment in
>> JR> > some breeds who could ill afford the drop in popularity.
>> JR> >
>> JR>
>> JR> Can you quantify this "ample evidence?" What breeds have experienced
>> JR> "diminishment" and to what extent?
>> JR>
>> Doberman Pinschers (or as known in Europe, the Dobermann). During
>> the first year alone, the number dropped more than 20%. The last
>> I heard is that there are now fewer than 50% as many as before
>> the banning of cropping.
>> avrama
>
>Can you furnish a reference which substantiates the decline of Dobermann
>registrations?
Registrations just do not prove a thing it is not all dog owners who
are wanting to give good money to the various kennel clubs just to
register their dog and to receive a slip of paper, not all dog owners
are show crazy some people are just satisfied to have the company of
their dog without dragging the poor animal around a show ring like a
tormented zombie . Dog shows are mainly organized so that the female
dog owners can parade their new dresses in public .
David .
James L. Ryan
ro...@manchester-uk.crosswinds.net wrote:
> Registrations just do not prove a thing it is not all dog owners who
> are wanting to give good money to the various kennel clubs just to
> register their dog and to receive a slip of paper, not all dog owners
> are show crazy some people are just satisfied to have the company of
> their dog without dragging the poor animal around a show ring like a
> tormented zombie . Dog shows are mainly organized so that the female
> dog owners can parade their new dresses in public .
What is being compared, however, is registration rates before and after a
ban on cropping. It's now been posted that in Finland the registration
rates for various cropped or docked breeds didn't undergo any significant
change except for Dobermanns, for which the registrations rates halved.
The sarcasm regarding dog shows is totally irrelevant to this discussion.
AVRAMA GINGOLD
S> even a breeder is contributing to the problem, because they could have gotte
S> a dog from rescue or the SPCA, but because the dog they want is not availabl
S> there, breedings take place to satisfy our urges for "better" dogs.
Now that is as fine a load of bovine feces as I have seen in a
long time. One of the major reasons dogs are recycled (only,
alas, many never get past that first turn-in) is that owners
buy the wrong dog FOR THEM. The person who knows what s/he
really wants, what breed has the modal (that is not a misspelling)
temperament s/he likes best, and which fits best with his/her
own temperament, who gets a dog fitted for the style of life
s/he lives, who knows his/her own needs and the needs of the
breed s/he wants--that is NOT the person who a few months down
the pike dumps the dog into rescue or a shelter because it
just didn't work out.
Nor can you simply say that any dog of the desired breed will
necessarily be the right dog. For example, I selected (or
was selected by--another story for another time) the puppy
who was ranked the most assertive in his litter, the kind of
puppy who the first time put on a leash did not lag behind,
but simply shook himself and set off to explore the world.
Because of whatever peculiar concatenation of personality
quirks I may have, he has been a perfect choice FOR ME.
When he was about 5-6 months old, one of his littermates
was returned to the breeder because it was "just too much."
Laughing, the breeder called to tell me that all the things
the returned pup did which drove its own up the wall were
the exact same things mine did, and which led me to call
the breeder with bragging laughter (e.g., wasn't he
clever: he opened the drawer in which I put my glasses to
protect them; isn't it cute--I've had to put a bolt on
the closet door to protect my shoes?)*. Different strokes
for different folks--and different dogs for different
people.
NO ONE BREED IS PERFECT FOR EVERYONE, and NO ONE IS
PERFECT FOR EVERY BREED.
Why is it so difficult for some people to realize that
simple statement?
avrama & shomer
* All of that was during those months of puppydom, when
the Doberfant was learning about the world and all
its goodies. Amazing, that once I learned how to
keep my possessions away from him, by the time he
matured he no longer wanted to chew on my shoes, or
eyeglasses, or leather articles.
.. nfx v2.7 [C0000] We're all in the gutter; some are looking at the stars
r...@freemail.co.uk
It is very true all the same you show me where it states that trailing
a dog from one end of the country and then have them run around a
stupid show ring will enhance a dogs well being .Dog shows are not for
dogs they are for their attention seeking owners .
Ron .
ro...@manchester-uk.crosswinds.net
Robin Nuttall
> >registrations?
> are wanting to give good money to the various kennel clubs just to
> register their dog and to receive a slip of paper, not all dog owners
> are show crazy some people are just satisfied to have the company of
> their dog without dragging the poor animal around a show ring like a
> tormented zombie . Dog shows are mainly organized so that the female
> dog owners can parade their new dresses in public .
>
And you guys are attempting to carry on an arguement with this moron?
The above statement says it all--not worth the time or effort, I've got
better things to do. But tell you what. Next time I talk to Andy or
Carlos or Frank or Vic or Dave or Brian or Pat or Mike I'll ask them
about their new dresses.
--
Robin, Jasper and Dreamer
rob...@sprynet.com
Doberman Information page:
http://www.hsc.missouri.edu/people/robin