Euthanasia debate, need help
Ken M.
Lawrence wrote:
>
> I would appreciate some well thought out, non-emotional ( I got enough
> of that for myself) advice to my problem. I have a 13-year old terrier
> mutt whom I love dearly. Hannibal is driving me and himself nuts!!
> For most of his life, he has had a minor skin problem, nothing serious.
> Well, about 2 years ago, it became serious, so much so that he took a
> large chunk of hair out and made himself bleed. Well, then I got a
> 'cone' that he wore for about 1 1/2 years. In the mean time, I tried
> EVERYTHING, creams, sprays, shampoos... I did see a remarkable change
> when I switched to Nutra-Nuggets dog food. Well, he is at it again,
> not quite as severe, but getting there.
> O.k., here is were people will get angry. No, he has not been to vet
> for this. I simply can not afford it and I can't find anything wrong
> with his skin (looked for mites w/magnifying glass). I am sorry if
> this upsets anyone. I give my pets lots of love, they all live in the
> house, and they get good food. Spaying/neutering and shots are a must,
> but I just can't afford a trip to the vet for this.(I have a lot of
> pets to feed and money is tight, though if it were an emergency, I
> would find the money.
I'm starting to get the picture here -- this isn't an emergency, but
you are thinking about "putting down" your dog? Hmmmmm...
> Though I suppose some may consider this an emergency...) Sooo, I would
> appreciate advice about weather or not I should consider euthanising
> him for his own sake (discomfort, and I yell at him to stop it!!) Of
> course, any advice about how to fix the problem will be greatly
> appreciated also. This is a decision that I almost made before the
> previous improvement. But, I always found something else to do with
> the money.
Don't we all!
> I DO NOT want to do this, but can't stand to see him uncomftable(sp?).
> He is my Bud, I have had him since he was a tiny pup and he peed on me
> on the way home. He helped me potty train my first pug, though now he
> is being 'bad' about that. When his skin was doing good, his hair is
> so beatiful, but with all the itching, he has spit spots and tangels
> and looks like a homeless dog.
Doesn't look so good now, right?
> I realize that this will be my decision in the end, but would like some
> feedback, what would you do??
> Please respond directly, I don't get to the newsgroups everyday.
> Thanks,
> Bobbie
The most logical thing to do is -- find some money and take your dog
to a Veterinarian for proper treatment. From what you have described,
it sounds like your dog is suffering from allergies. At minimum, the
Vet would check for fleas, mites, etc, and give your dog some prednisone
for quick relief. It could be a "seasonal" allergy. You said it happens
now and then.
If you can't do that -- I'd take all of your critters to a "no-kill"
shelter and give them away for adoption so they can be properly
treated when they become ill.
And -- of course -- never get another dog or cat again. Just find a
cute stuffed animal.
(Ken)
nad...@erols.com
Ken: Sounds like a very sensible suggestion!
MacDuff
Ken M. wrote:
>
> Lawrence wrote:
> > No, he has not been to vet
> > for this. I simply can not afford it and I can't find anything wrong
> > Spaying/neutering and shots are a must,
> > but I just can't afford a trip to the vet for this.(I have a lot of
> > pets to feed and money is tight, though if it were an emergency, I
> > the money.
>
> If you can't do that -- I'd take all of your critters to a "no-kill"
> shelter and give them away for adoption so they can be properly
> treated when they become ill.
You need to take a serious look at your finances and judge (1) whether you can truly
afford to keep the pets you have and (2) whether you have the discipline to control your
spending to properly care for your pets.
If you cannot afford to take *any* of your pets in for EVEN annual physicals where they
are given vaccinations and checkups, then you should NOT own any of these animals.
As Ken indicated, take your animals to a "no-kill" shelter where they can be given away
for adoption and be properly cared for.
Owning an animal, ANY animal, requires a certain level of responsibility on your part.
If you are not committed to seeing to your animals' welfare by having regular once a
year vaccinations & exams and by consulting a professional when something goes wrong
that you can't fix, then you should NOT own an animal.
MacDuff
Brian Sandle
Ken M. (K...@doglover.com) wrote:
: Lawrence wrote:
: >
: > I would appreciate some well thought out, non-emotional ( I got enough
: > of that for myself) advice to my problem. I have a 13-year old terrier
: > mutt whom I love dearly. Hannibal is driving me and himself nuts!!
: > For most of his life, he has had a minor skin problem, nothing serious.
: > Well, about 2 years ago, it became serious, so much so that he took a
: > large chunk of hair out and made himself bleed. Well, then I got a
: > 'cone' that he wore for about 1 1/2 years. In the mean time, I tried
: > EVERYTHING, creams, sprays, shampoos... I did see a remarkable change
: > when I switched to Nutra-Nuggets dog food. Well, he is at it again,
: > not quite as severe, but getting there.
For a long time when I was young we had a Blue Roan Spaniel. He developed
an itch and a cough and stiff back legs. He was taken to the vet but did
not come back without warning. The vet said his heart wasn't getting the
blood around him.
Essential fatty acids are good for my skin. Safflower oil, though
polyunsaturated oils can make the body require more vitamin E.
Perhaps cod liver oil would help, too, or fish oil, though it's expensive.
Does he have sufficient magnesium? What form can dogs use that in? Too
much epsom salts (magnesium sulphate) I have heard being given to racing
dogs to `clean them out' a day or so before a race. But why not check the
diet for magnesium. Water must be given, too, or the kidneys can be hurt
by cat biscuits, is that the magnesium?
Brian Sandle
sjoh...@upei.ca
>Lawrence wrote:
I have a 13-year old terrier
>> mutt whom I love dearly. Hannibal is driving me and himself nuts!!
>> For most of his life, he has had a minor skin problem, nothing serious.
>> Well, about 2 years ago, it became serious, so much so that he took a
>> large chunk of hair out and made himself bleed. Well, then I got a
>> 'cone' that he wore for about 1 1/2 years. In the mean time, I tried
>> EVERYTHING, creams, sprays, shampoos... I did see a remarkable change
>> when I switched to Nutra-Nuggets dog food. Well, he is at it again,
>> not quite as severe, but getting there.
>> O.k., here is were people will get angry. No, he has not been to vet
>> for this. I simply can not afford it and I can't find anything wrong
>> with his skin (looked for mites w/magnifying glass). I am sorry if
>> this upsets anyone. I give my pets lots of love, they all live in the
>> house, and they get good food. Spaying/neutering and shots are a must,
>> but I just can't afford a trip to the vet for this.(I have a lot of
>> pets to feed and money is tight, though if it were an emergency, I
>> would find the money. Though I suppose some may consider this an
emergency...) Sooo, I would >> appreciate advice about weather or not I should
consider euthanising >> him for his own sake (discomfort, and I yell at him to
stop it!!) Of >> course, any advice about how to fix the problem will be
greatly >> appreciated also. This is a decision that I almost made before the
>> previous improvement. But, I always found something else to do with
>> the money. I DO NOT want to do this, but can't stand to see him
uncomftable(sp?).
<snip,snip,snip>
Here in lies an ethical question for all vets and vets-to-be. I was just in
the campus pub the other night after class with a number of classmates, having
a beer after class. As happens so often in this environment, we began
discussing philosophy and ethics. There are of course broad ethical guidelines
for vets, but much is left to the individual to decide how to proceed in
everyday practice. Much like the Golden Rule is the umbrella philosophy
preciding over most religious dogma. For veterinarians it's "above all, do no
harm".
When it comes to the question of euthanasia for treatable problems
there are sooooo many issues(ethical, emotional, legal, etc.) to consider.
Veterinarians CANNOT give away their services and expect to stay in practice.
On the other hand, a veterinarian would not be a veterinarian if immune to
animal suffering. There are simply too many cases like Lawrence's out there.
Therefore, is it better to ensure an animal will suffer no longer by
euthanizing it if an owner refuses to pay the cost of salvage?(I use the word
"salvage" because frequently by the time the vet sees these animals they are
wrecks.)
People should not be restricted from the joy of pet ownership because of lack
of money. However, most owners who "poor-mouth" would have the money for thier
pet's medical expenses if they gave up "one movie and pizza" per month. There
are also the pet owners who love animals too much. (ie those who adopt every
stray and throw away they come across, but don't have the income to support)
Added to these dilemas are the hundreds of thousands of healthy animals that
are euthanized simply because nobody wants them. How can we justify prolonging
old, inferm animals when there are so many young and healthy ones that need
homes. That's not to say I'm advocating Lawrence attaining another animal and
I do understand the huaman-animal bond that induces people to spend exorbitant
amounts of money on incureable animals.
OK, babbling aside. Lawrence: at thirteen your dog could conseivably live
another 3 or 4 years. Would it be such a hardship to you to scrounge up the
additional fifty dollars(estimate) to have your friend and companion looked at
and given a cortisone shot if approapriate?(I can't believe I'm actually
agreeing with Ken on something.) Cortisone for mild allergy generally gives
about 3 months relief. And, I'd bet you could find a vet to give the
maintenance injections for about 10 dollars. Sure cortisone is detrimental
over time, but your dog's comfort at the cost of one year less life? I'd say
that's a pretty good trade-off for euthanasia.
I could ramble on but I've got to go to class.
ciao all,
Stephanie-DVM98
Ken M.
Dogs 9 wrote:
>
> She asked for a non-emotional answer. I will try my best to give one.
> Assuming that lack of finances is the root of the problem, my
> suggestion is rather than let that poor dog suffer constant itching
> with no relief in sight, it would be more humane to put the poor dog to
> sleep. The facts are that she doesn't have the money for a visit to the
> vet, she has other dogs, and the quality of that poor dog's life is not
> too great. My decisions on my own dogs has always been, what is the
> quality of life of the dog? Is the dog better off living the life it
> is now? Or is it better off not living at all? Hard choice??? You
> bet!!! But there comes a time when it has to be made. I know many will
> disagree with me, but that's just my humble opinion in
> this case.
> Lois S
> Dogs 9
If that's the "best" you can offer -- I only hope your dog doesn't
become old, have allergies, and you can't find an extra $50.
(Ken)
Michelen Morganer
> >Lawrence wrote:
> I have a 13-year old terrier
> >> mutt whom I love dearly. Hannibal is driving me and himself nuts!!
> >> For most of his life, he has had a minor skin problem, nothing serious.
> >> Well, about 2 years ago, it became serious, so much so that he took a
> >> large chunk of hair out and made himself bleed. Well, then I got a
> >> 'cone' that he wore for about 1 1/2 years. In the mean time, I tried
> >> EVERYTHING, creams, sprays, shampoos... I did see a remarkable change
> >> when I switched to Nutra-Nuggets dog food. Well, he is at it again,
> >> not quite as severe, but getting there.
you mentioned he got better a little after changing foods - you might want
to consider a food allergy as the cause for his problems. Unlike a lot of
other allergies, food allergies can pop up at any age. If you really
can't get to the vet which you already know you really should do, try
this:
Depending on where you live and if availabe, go to a large pet food store
like complete petmart or petsmart and get a diet based on a protein source
the dog has never had, like deer or rabbit (too many dogs have had lamb
and too many foods include lamb so this may not be acceptable). Make sure
this product doesn't contain beef, chicken or turkey since these are the
most common protein sources in dog foods. Then you have to feed this
diet, and ONLY this diet (NO SNACKS OF ANY KIND!!!!!!!!) for at least 8 -
10 weeks to see if there is any change. If his skin is really bad right
now it is probable he also has a skin infection which really needs to be
treated to get the best results out of the food trial. If you can't find
the food in the store, you can always cook it for him with either rice or
potatos.
I guess I can't agree with euthanizing him since there are things which
can be done to help him, and yes it will probably cost you some money to
get a diagnosis, but he is your friend and you made an agreement with him
the day you brought him home to take care of him. To me this doesn't mean
putting him to death when he develops a problem. You can find a way to
help him.
best wishes for you and your friend
Mickey DVM 98
Dogpatch
Carey Gregory wrote:
> Gotta agree with you this time, Ken. A dog is a lifetime commitment,
> for better or for worse, for richer or for POORER.
This guy seems go currently being going through both worse and poorer,
and IS keeping his commitment to best friend by doing whatever he's able
to for that dog.
You must have had a very lucky life if you don't understand what it's
like to dig through a sofa to find some change for food. If you don't
have it, you don't have it, and you've usually exhausted all resources.
What would you have someone do, get kicked out into the street for not
paying rent so that they can spend that last few dollars at the vet?
(Don't forget that the dog would also be on the street.)
What I'm hearing in this newgroup is that only the financially well-off
should be privileged to have pets, and if they temporarily fall on hard
times, those pets should be given up. What an elitist attitude!
Dogpatch
Ken M.
Dogpatch wrote:
>
> What I'm hearing in this newgroup is that only the financially well-off
> should be privileged to have pets, and if they temporarily fall on hard
> times, those pets should be given up. What an elitist attitude!
>
> Dogpatch
That's not what you are hearing at all -- that's what Lawrence wants
you to believe! Look at the header above -- you'll see the word -
DEBATE -- someone who has a sick dog, that's itching and causing
bald spots, doesn't get on the Internet and talk about euthanasia
and DEBATES!
If he loves his animals -- he FINDS a way to get some money and
visits the Veterinarian, quickly.
(Ken)
Carey Gregory
Ken M. wrote:
>
> If that's the "best" you can offer -- I only hope your dog doesn't
> become old, have allergies, and you can't find an extra $50.
Gotta agree with you this time, Ken. A dog is a lifetime commitment,
for better or for worse, for richer or for POORER.
--
Carey Gregory
ash...@erols.com
If he can afford a computer and internet service, I think it's pretty safe
to assume he's not looking for change under the sofa cushions. He needs
to get his priorities straight. Ken, it's nice to agree with you for a
change.
Cadfael
IMHO-
All options haven't yet been exhausted since there are still funds being
invested in an online service. If it comes down to making a decision
about caring for animals or euthanising them; until we've exhausted all
other options, euthanising should not be an option. Before putting a dog
down, better to cancel an Internet account; that alone will save a
couple of hundred dollars. No need yet to dig through a sofa for extra
change.
Cadfael
--
"To thy poems Heaven affixes the Pearl Rosetta
of the Pleiades as a seal of immortality."
-Hafiz of Persia (14th century)
amy young-leith
I don't mean to stir flames, but I agree with "Ken" although it sounds
like an unpopular thing to do on this group.
It upsets me greatly to hear of people who complain about the cost of pet
care, or who, worse, consider putting an animal down for a treatable
condition because they cannot afford to have the animal examined by a vet!
May I ask just HOW the animal was going to be "euthenized?" If you take
the animal to a vet, that costs, you know. So you'd save up for that but
not for an exam? I don't get it.
I take my responsability to my animals seriously, very seriously. I have
four parrots, a house rabbit and a dog. They all go in for yearly
physical exams, the dog gets her necessary shots. And although I live
from paycheck to paycheck with little savings, I have had to cover
emergency expenses for the animals. That is something you MUST consider
when you think of getting an animal! Yes, with good care vet expenses may
be low... MAYBE NOT. For instance Bijou, our GSD, experienced an odd loss
of appetite and increasing lethargy. I took her to the vet the moment I
noticed this. I had NO MONEY. But I didn't even hesitate? Why?
First off, I have a good relationship with my vet. I trust him, and
further he knows of my commitment to my animals. Knowing these things I
had no doubt that *something* could be worked out... delayed payment,
payment plans, something. Secondly, I would do *anything* necessary to
pay for Bijou's health care. I'd get a second evening job if necessary.
I'd eat ramen noodles for a month. ANYTHING. Same goes for my other
animals. We were lucky; after three batteries of xrays and numerous
bloodwork tests, we found out she has a nervous stomach; we keep a
prescription of Tagamet on hand for times when she seems stressed. Total
bill was under $150.
Of course there comes a time when decisions have to be made... do you keep
a 15 year old dog on treatment for kidney failure when chances of them
recovering and living free again are slim? Probably not. But do you put
down a late middle aged dog because of a skin problem, probably a food
allergy? Jesus no, not in my book!
amy
--
amy young-leith http://ezinfo.ucs.indiana.edu/~alyoung
1986 Shadow VT1100 (Dmitri) *Speaking only for myself*
Computer Geek, Department of Psychology 855.5542
amy young-leith
In article <32D846...@imap1.asu.edu>,
Dogpatch <Dogp...@imap1.asu.edu> wrote:
>This guy seems go currently being going through both worse and poorer,
>and IS keeping his commitment to best friend by doing whatever he's able
>to for that dog.
No, he's doing what is easiest for him. He mentioned an ending to his bad
feelings having to watch his dog itch... well I have two solutions for
him: FIND the money (beg, borrow, earn) or give the dog a chance in
another home who CAN care for him.
>You must have had a very lucky life if you don't understand what it's
>like to dig through a sofa to find some change for food. If you don't
>have it, you don't have it, and you've usually exhausted all resources.
>What would you have someone do, get kicked out into the street for not
>paying rent so that they can spend that last few dollars at the vet?
>(Don't forget that the dog would also be on the street.)
>
>What I'm hearing in this newgroup is that only the financially well-off
>should be privileged to have pets, and if they temporarily fall on hard
>times, those pets should be given up. What an elitist attitude!
You think they should instead be killed! THAT'S a great attitude.
amy young-leith
In article <5b9o2k$2...@boursy.news.erols.com>, <ash...@erols.com> wrote:
>"Ken M." <K...@doglover.com> wrote:
[...]
>>If he loves his animals -- he FINDS a way to get some money and
>>visits the Veterinarian, quickly.
I really do believe some things are this simple. And caring for the
animals we take responsability for IS this "easy." Not easy to enact, but
easy to decide. You cannot tell me that there is no friend or family
member that would lend you the money for a vet visit... or hell if you
bother to care for the animals and have regular vet visits, I haven't
known a VET who wouldn't work something out with you! No credit card you
can use, no luxury you could sell?
>If he can afford a computer and internet service, I think it's pretty safe
>to assume he's not looking for change under the sofa cushions. He needs
>to get his priorities straight. Ken, it's nice to agree with you for a
>change.
Amen!
dan linneman
Thank You, Dogpatch! My sentiments exactly!
Melynda
Dogpatch
ash...@erols.com wrote:
> If he can afford a computer and internet service, I think it's pretty safe
> to assume he's not looking for change under the sofa cushions. He needs
> to get his priorities straight.
What makes you assume he's paying for either I-Net or the `pute? Some
people have access at work or at school, you know. I realize that it's
hard to understand what it's like to be in that sort of position, but it
happens. Why can't people accept the fact that someone's broke?
BTW, I've gotten a lot of E-Mail on this one and it's running 95% in
agreement with me. I notice that those people haven't posted to the
newsgroup though. I guess they feel they wouldn't be believed either.
Dogpatch
Dogpatch
MacDuff wrote:
> However, if you're
> faced with a "do I kill the dog" decision, what the hell is the big deal
> if it IS adopted out to someone else?
Well, if it's an older dog that you've had for years (as in this case),
it might just be kinder to put the dog down. Obviously, that would be
the last resort for someone who loves their dog, so a person might
conceivable ask others for advise.
Dogpatch
Dogpatch
Ken M. wrote:
> If he loves his animals -- he FINDS a way to get some money and
> visits the Veterinarian, quickly.
Sorry, but when you've exhausted all resources just to live, there _are_
no options left short of bankrobbery (I've been there). That's the
reason this person was considering putting down his best friend--what a
horrible choice to have to make.
Sure a vet is the best thing to do, but if that choice is completely out
of the question.... He posted the question rather than do nothing for
the poor dog. IMHO, if there's any way to help him help his dog, we
should, and not criticize him for doing the best he can under bad
circumstances.
Dogpatch
Dogpatch
MacDuff wrote:
> Deciding to BUY a dog requires (among other things) "financial planning",
> Dogpatch. Catch a clue, magoo.
Of course, we all should plan our emergencies. Things like lay-offs,
illnesses etc are known well beforehand and people who don't consider
those things are just morons, right?
> I begrudge NO one of falling on hard times. Most everyone has experience
> with belt-tightening, some to more degrees than others. I DO begrudge
> people who, on a whim, decide to buy/own a dog without considering the
> financial implications of such ownership.
I agree, but that's not what this person said.
> Should only the financially well-off people own dogs? No. But I do
> believe that the financially AWARE people should. That is, people should
> look at whether they can afford this BEFORE getting into it. That does
> NOT mean that people running across "hard times" should get rid of
> theirs, just reevaluate what they *can* and *cannot* afford to do. This
> wasn't clear in Lawrence's first note.
I guess I interpreted it differently, because I felt it was quite clear.
Maybe it's because I work closely with a disadvantaged population.
> Additionally, Lawrence mentioned not going to the vets for shots, etc. A
> simple five word follow-up like "I give my own shots" would have blown
> away most of the negative comments because, quite frankly, that initial
> note sounded like a person who doesn't *believe* in vets or pet health
> maintenance. I know several people who administer their own shots with
> no problems.
He didn't say he didn't believe in vets so why would you read that into
it? Why not ask him straight out of that was the case before putting him
down?
Sorry, but I think a lot of people did a lot of self-riteous conclusion
jumping, and too often that seems to be the modus-operandi for this
newsgroup--criticize first, get the facts second.
Dogpatch
MacDuff
>> should be privileged to have pets, and if they temporarily fall on hard
>> times, those pets should be given up. What an elitist attitude!
>>
>
>
>That's not what you are hearing at all -- that's what Lawrence wants
>you to believe! Look at the header above -- you'll see the word -
>DEBATE -- someone who has a sick dog, that's itching and causing
>bald spots, doesn't get on the Internet and talk about euthanasia
>and DEBATES!
>
Hey Dogpath, wake up and re-read the advice to Lawrence's FIRST note.
Lawrence led us to believe that (1) didn't take dog(s) to vet, ever, even
for shots, (2) neglected to say gave *own* shots (thus, warding off most
flaming replies), (3) led readers to believe that other pets were possibly
dogs, too, as they were mentioned within the post related to the ailing
dog, and (4) asked the *extreme* question about putting it down.
While dog ownership should NOT only be for financially "well-off" people,
it should be for financially AWARE people. What does that mean? It means
that people should check their finances and whether they can afford a dog
*before* they get it. It also means that they always recheck their
finances routinely to see if they need to squirrel away "reserves". I'm
NOT referring to the hard times that often crop up in everyone's life.
That is, it does NOT mean that people on hard times give up their dogs.
They find other ways to care for them. Lawrence, by administering the
shots to the dogs has found one such way to cut costs. However, if you're
faced with a "do I kill the dog" decision, what the hell is the big deal
if it IS adopted out to someone else?!
MacDuff
MacDuff
Dogpatch <dogp...@imap1.asu.edu> wrote:
>
>What I'm hearing in this newgroup is that only the financially well-off
>should be privileged to have pets, and if they temporarily fall on hard
>times, those pets should be given up. What an elitist attitude!
>
Deciding to BUY a dog requires (among other things) "financial planning",
Dogpatch. Catch a clue, magoo.
Re-read my initial note to Lawrence and de-cipher, again, what was said
there. This person only mentioned, LATER, that financial hard times had
befallen them and neglected to inform us of the *types* of pets. I. like
others, assumed these other pets were dogs, especially when they were
mentioned as dependents with Hannibal.
I begrudge NO one of falling on hard times. Most everyone has experience
with belt-tightening, some to more degrees than others. I DO begrudge
people who, on a whim, decide to buy/own a dog without considering the
financial implications of such ownership.
Should only the financially well-off people own dogs? No. But I do
believe that the financially AWARE people should. That is, people should
look at whether they can afford this BEFORE getting into it. That does
NOT mean that people running across "hard times" should get rid of
theirs, just reevaluate what they *can* and *cannot* afford to do. This
wasn't clear in Lawrence's first note.
Additionally, Lawrence mentioned not going to the vets for shots, etc. A
simple five word follow-up like "I give my own shots" would have blown
away most of the negative comments because, quite frankly, that initial
note sounded like a person who doesn't *believe* in vets or pet health
maintenance. I know several people who administer their own shots with
no problems.
MacDuff
N.Franklin
> IMHO-
>
> All options haven't yet been exhausted since there are still funds being
> invested in an online service. If it comes down to making a decision
> about caring for animals or euthanising them; until we've exhausted all
> other options, euthanising should not be an option. Before putting a dog
> down, better to cancel an Internet account; that alone will save a
> couple of hundred dollars. No need yet to dig through a sofa for extra
> change.
One thing I have been wondering about here is how, if he can't afford a
vet visit, how can he afford euthanasia? I had to make the wrenching
decision to ease my cat's suffering last winter, and it came to $100 for
the euthanasia and the "disposal of the remains" (that sounds so
horrible). An average vet exam is much less than that - my cat had
allergies, and her monthly shots were $25. If he can't afford that, he
certainly can't afford vet euthanasia - and I sincerely hope that is what
he intends, and not doing it himself. Please, take the dog to a vet, talk
about payment plans, and give the poor animal some relief.
My 2cents...
Nancy.
Carey Gregory
Dogpatch wrote:
>
> This guy seems go currently being going through both worse and poorer,
> and IS keeping his commitment to best friend by doing whatever he's able
> to for that dog.
>
> like to dig through a sofa to find some change for food. If you don't
> have it, you don't have it, and you've usually exhausted all resources.
> What would you have someone do, get kicked out into the street for not
> paying rent so that they can spend that last few dollars at the vet?
> (Don't forget that the dog would also be on the street.)
Oh, give me a break. Been there. Done that. Been evicted, lived on
the friggin' street, went without eating for days at a time. I've
worked for 50 cents an hour. I've worked picking crops. Nobody paid my
way, so don't give me that line. But you know what? When I was down
and out and broke, I didn't have a computer. And I sure as hell didn't
have an internet account. When this guy sells the computer and/or
cancels the internet account, the vet bill should be no problem. (Oh,
and let's not forget the phone bill.) But instead he's going to
euthanize the poor thing because he's soooo broke. Jeez. The friggin'
modem cost more than treating the dog, and *we're* the ones with the
attitude problem?! Yeah, right.
> What I'm hearing in this newgroup is that only the financially well-off
> should be privileged to have pets, and if they temporarily fall on hard
> times, those pets should be given up. What an elitist attitude!
No, what you're hearing is you don't euthanize an animal because it's
become inconvenient. When "surfin' the net" is more important than your
pet's life, there is definitely an attitude problem, but it's not ours.
--
Carey Gregory
Ken M.
Dogpatch wrote:
>
> Ken M. wrote:
> > If he loves his animals -- he FINDS a way to get some money and
> > visits the Veterinarian, quickly.
> Sorry, but when you've exhausted all resources just to live, there
> _are_ no options left short of bankrobbery (I've been there). That's
> the reason this person was considering putting down his best
> friend--what a horrible choice to have to make.
>
> Sure a vet is the best thing to do, but if that choice is completely
> out of the question.... He posted the question rather than do nothing
> for the poor dog. IMHO, if there's any way to help him help his dog, we
> should, and not criticize him for doing the best he can under bad
> circumstances.
>
> Dogpatch
If I were that "broke" I think I would get on the Internet and beg for
money -- before even considering "putting down" my dog. Then again,
I love my dog.
I don't even think he owns one!
(Ken)
Gail B. Mackiernan
This guy has *internet* access for heaven's sake, and access to a
computer, he is not living on the street. He has made (according to his
own words) conscious decisions to spend his money on other things other
than his dog's health. Fine, but stop supporting him -- he is guilty of
neglect, pure and simple, for over two years.
If that is elitist, so be it, but I think if you can't take at least
reasonable care of your animals, you shouldn't have them.
Gail Mackiernan
dan linneman
Once again, Dogpatch, thank you!
I cannot believe, that in a time that is probably very stressful for a
person (being in a difficult financial situation, having a very ill, loved
furkid) most people here seem content to judge, comment and criticize this
person's lifestyle!!!! YOU KNOW NOTHING ABOUT THIS GUY! How can it
possibly be your place to try and figure why he has internet, how he pays
for this internet, if he should have pets, how he plans his life, etc...
Would any of you judges care to have your life looked at under a
microscope and have assumptions made about you which could be WAY OFF BASE
by a group of complete strangers who know nothing about you or your
circumstances?
I hear a bunch of "pet bullies" here, who seem to think that they have
cornered the market on perfect pet ownership. Perhaps we could all try
and give suggestions that will help, before jumping to wild conclusions,
and accusations about abuse. You have nothing to base these opinions on
besides pure conjecture and obvious bias. You simply do not know this
person's life circumstances, and I resent people jumping to conclusions.
A very shameful, unsympathetic, and even "elitist" crowd.
Melynda
Ken M.
Dogpatch wrote:
>
> What makes you assume he's paying for either I-Net or the `pute? Some
> people have access at work or at school, you know. I realize that it's
> hard to understand what it's like to be in that sort of position, but
> it happens. Why can't people accept the fact that someone's broke?
>
> BTW, I've gotten a lot of E-Mail on this one and it's running 95% in
> agreement with me. I notice that those people haven't posted to the
> newsgroup though. I guess they feel they wouldn't be believed either.
>
> Dogpatch
Ah, I don't think so. Are they "Internet shy?"
It's such a sad situation. I wonder why he didn't consider giving up his
fish and other pets, as well.
(Ken)
Jason
In article <5bbfem$j...@dismay.ucs.indiana.edu>, aly...@copper.ucs.indiana.edu
says...
> I had NO MONEY. But I didn't even hesitate? Why?
>
>First off, I have a good relationship with my vet. I trust him, and
>further he knows of my commitment to my animals. Knowing these things I
>had no doubt that *something* could be worked out... delayed payment,
>payment plans, something.
This is off topic, but why must the veterinarian offer delayed payments or a
payment plan? Do you go into the grocery store, fill up a basket, go to the
checker and tell them you'll pay next month? I don't think so.
Veterinarians are not banks, or credit unions. Doctors and Dentists don't let
you "put it on your account", so why do people expect veterinarians to do
this?
Veterinarians are not out there to offer credit. That's what banks and credit
card companies are for.
kim
====================================================
Just one word, Mlynda:
BRAVO!!
Kim :)
Ken M.
dan linneman wrote:
>
> Would any of you judges care to have your life looked at under a
> microscope and have assumptions made about you which could be WAY OFF
> BASE by a group of complete strangers who know nothing about you or
> your circumstances?
That did happen to me! When an unlicensed immigrant hit my Chihuahua
and tried to flee -- I was practically accused of throwing her under
the car's tires!
> I hear a bunch of "pet bullies" here, who seem to think that they have
> cornered the market on perfect pet ownership. Perhaps we could all
> try and give suggestions that will help, before jumping to wild
> conclusions, and accusations about abuse. You have nothing to base
> these opinions on besides pure conjecture and obvious bias. You simply
> do not know this person's life circumstances, and I resent people
> jumping to conclusions. A very shameful, unsympathetic, and even
> "elitist" crowd.
>
> Melynda
Get used to it -- some of us are just ruthless. But, in closing, I
hope your dog doesn't develop a terrible itch if you are "cash poor."
There's no telling what YOU might do!
(Ken)
dan linneman
> Get used to it -- some of us are just ruthless. But, in closing, I
> hope your dog doesn't develop a terrible itch if you are "cash poor."
>
> There's no telling what YOU might do!
I know I wouldn't ask you for help!!
Going by your newest comments, we seem to be resorting to childishness here.
So, imagine this - I am putting my fingers in my ears, and saying:
BLAH, BLAH, BLAH, BLAH!!!
Cheers!
Melynda
Ken M.
Based on your opinions given in this thread -- BLAH! is what we would
expect to hear from you.
And if someone had a sickly dog that needed attention, I'd probably
loan them some money. What would you do? Put your money where your
mouth is!
I think I know -- you'd say, "BLAH!"
(Ken)
dan linneman
> Based on your opinions given in this thread -- BLAH! is what we would
> expect to hear from you.
>
> And if someone had a sickly dog that needed attention, I'd probably
> loan them some money. What would you do? Put your money where your
> mouth is!
>
> I think I know -- you'd say, "BLAH!"
Look, I don't think I need to explain what I would do to you. I know I
would do, and have done in the past, good things that have helped people
and animals.
It seems that you have a need to look at others and criticize and judge
while knowing very little of people's circumstances, who they are, what
their struggles are etc... I don't understand why that is? I suppose
that is your business. I just personally think (and, again, this is a
subjective opinion) that it isn't very nice to hurl insults and hurt
others based on little knowledge.
Cheers Again!
Melynda
>
>
> (Ken)
>
> K...@doglover.com
dan linneman
I agree, it is a veteranarians choice. Some are in a position to offer
payment plans, and some are not. I absolutely respect that. Lord knows
we shouldn't "bash" vets who cannot offer payment plans or free visits -
they probably do not have the finances or resources to do it! I am sure
that nearly all vets are vets because they care about animals - some are
luckier and have more prosperous businesses than others.
Also remember, when people get in really dire starits, they get food
stamps so that they do not have to ask for grocery payment plans :).
Also, doctors and dentists do allow payment plans, and again, when people
are in dire strais, they can go on Public Aid. There are also many free
clinics and county health departments that charge very little.
I am not trying to be condescending, those are just the facts. There are
a lot of governement programs to help people and their kids to have basic
needs for survival when they run into extreme financial difficulties.
There are no government plans (as far as I know) to help furkids of people
who hit hard times. Therefore, what is one to do if they unexpectedly hit
hard times and their pets get sick?
Here are some helpful suggestions:
1. Some vets are in a position to offer payment plans
2. Some colleges and universities have excellent veterinary colleges that will
see your pet for free
3. You can ask for help over the internet in a newsgroup, and hopefully
you will run into compassionate people with suggestions. Also, some vets
might respond.
(When my dog recently died of Diabetes and got sicker and sicker through
his treatments, I got so much emotional support and advice from people on
this newsgroup. I thought this was a great group, and I know I met so many
compassionate people through it. I hate to see what it has deteriorated
into in this case. I want the old compassionate group back!)
4. My old vet once mentioned an organization to me that helped pets with
medicals when their families run into financial difficulties (I am going
to call my old vet and find out about this organization, and post it as
soon as I get it)
Well, that is about all for now!
Cheers!
Melynda
OBVC
In article <rdlinnem-140...@line7035.ras.ilstu.edu>,
rdli...@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu says...
>Also remember, when people get in really dire starits, they get food
>stamps so that they do not have to ask for grocery payment plans :).
>Also, doctors and dentists do allow payment plans, and again, when
people
>are in dire strais, they can go on Public Aid. There are also many
free
>clinics and county health departments that charge very little.
These are all supported by tax dollars. Veterinarians do not receive
any public funds and must maintain an entire hospital. There are no
public funds available to veterinarians to cover the costs of free exams
or discount treatments.... All these services come straight out of the
veterinarians pocket.
We have had to turn over $10,000 per year to a collection service due
to non-payment (it takes several months of no payments and many calls
and letters reminding people before they are turned over) and of that
$10,000, we get back about $1,000. We lose $9,000 per year just to try
and help people out with payment plans, then some don't even try to pay
us back.
How's that for appreciation?
Mary Healey
In article <rdlinnem-130...@line7191.ras.ilstu.edu>,
rdli...@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu (dan linneman) writes:
>I cannot believe, that in a time that is probably very stressful for a
>person (being in a difficult financial situation, having a very ill, loved
>furkid) most people here seem content to judge, comment and criticize this
>person's lifestyle!!!! YOU KNOW NOTHING ABOUT THIS GUY!
Except that he asks total strangers on a newsgroup for advice
whether or not to euthanise his pet. That's "pet", btw, and not
"furkid".
> How can it
>possibly be your place to try and figure why he has internet, how he pays
>for this internet, if he should have pets, how he plans his life, etc...
Well, these are all issues germane to the question he asked, because
the answer will depend on all those things. Whatever the outcome,
he's the one who has to live with it.
>Would any of you judges care to have your life looked at under a
>microscope and have assumptions made about you which could be WAY OFF BASE
>by a group of complete strangers who know nothing about you or your
>circumstances?
Why would I give a flying monkey's butt whether total strangers
approve or disapprove of me, my critters, or anything else? OTOH,
if I were to ASK for opinions, then I'd be prepared to take what
comes back. And I have. So?
>I hear a bunch of "pet bullies" here, who seem to think that they have
>cornered the market on perfect pet ownership.
Well, *I* have. I don't know about the rest of these bozos,
though.
>Perhaps we could all try
>and give suggestions that will help, before jumping to wild conclusions,
>and accusations about abuse. You have nothing to base these opinions on
>besides pure conjecture and obvious bias.
Sorry, sticking a dog in an Elizabethan collar for 18 months is not
exactly ideal pet care. In MY opinion, something one way or the
other should have been done with this pup the FIRST time, rather
than letting it drag on and on and on. Either get the dog diagnosed
and treated, keeping him as comfortable as possible if a cure is
impossible, or put him to sleep. This 'well, I *was* going to take
him to the vet, but then I spent the money on something else' is
crap. It's also not the fastest way to get sympathy 'round these
parts.
--
Mary & the Ames (Iowa, USA) National Zoo:
Raise a Fund ("Regis", 11 yo TB); ANZ Sam-I-Am ("Sam", 6 yo ACDx);
ANZ Noah Doll, CGC, OFA Good ("Noah", 3 yo ACD); kitties from h*ll;
finches; fish; Guinea pigs (a1....@isumvs.iastate.edu)
Ken M.
dan linneman wrote:
>
> Look, I don't think I need to explain what I would do to you. I know I
> would do, and have done in the past, good things that have helped
> people and animals.
>
> It seems that you have a need to look at others and criticize and judge
> while knowing very little of people's circumstances, who they are, what
> their struggles are etc... I don't understand why that is? I suppose
> that is your business. I just personally think (and, again, this is a
> subjective opinion) that it isn't very nice to hurl insults and hurt
> others based on little knowledge.
>
> Cheers Again!
> Melynda
Maybe you should go back and read the original message. He was quite
specific. I do not think he should own an animal.
If you would consider "euthanasia" because your dog was itching, and
you were low on money, you shouldn't own an animal, either!
It's very plain and simple.
Everyone enjoys hearing from you so don't be a stranger and
please write back soon and share your opinions with us!
(Ken)
Carol Dunster
On Mon, 13 Jan 1997 21:12:36 -0700, rdli...@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu (dan
linneman) wrote:
>snip
>Would any of you judges care to have your life looked at under a
>microscope and have assumptions made about you which could be WAY OFF BASE
>by a group of complete strangers who know nothing about you or your
>circumstances?
This person did ask....
>I hear a bunch of "pet bullies" here, who seem to think that they have
>cornered the market on perfect pet ownership. Perhaps we could all try
>and give suggestions that will help, before jumping to wild conclusions,
>and accusations about abuse. You have nothing to base these opinions on
>besides pure conjecture and obvious bias.
We have the information based on the way this person presented himself
- the only information that any of us here have on most of the rest of
us. You, too are a bit quick on the trigger to yell at everyone else
about there responses, when you know nothing about us either! See how
easy it is?
>You simply do not know this
>person's life circumstances, and I resent people jumping to conclusions.
>A very shameful, unsympathetic, and even "elitist" crowd.
You are not aware of the life circumstances of the people that you are
calling a "very shameful, unsympathetic, and even "elitist" crowd" -
does this make you a member? This man presented himself as someone
that would consider euthanasia a better option than proper vet care
because of cost. I find that offensive. If he had given information
that led us to believe that he was financially desperate, there would
have been a great deal more compassion. We, like you, can only go on
what we read and what we guess about what we read and, if someone
comes across as uncaring about his dog, people will be upset by it. My
compassion does tend to go to the dog, who has suffered for years and
may face euthanasia for what could be a simple skin problem. I think
that more research (there are free libraries) (this man is online and
could have asked for information such as ways to help his dog, without
the threat of killing it), would show a greater concern for the dog.
He may have been at the end of his rope emotionally, but I'll bet he
is in a position to rethink killing his pet and has more ideas of what
he can try to help it now than he did before he posted. That is what
it all about!
It is true that sometimes people get a bit overlooked in the
compassion level of this newsgroup, but it is for the dogs and people
can, to a certain extent, look after themselves! I try to think of
where a person may be coming from before I get too testy, but people
do forget to do that when they perceive a dog is going to get the
short end of the stick. We do have clues - each post gives us some and
it is up to the post-er to be concise, or he will get questioned
until we do understand. He can answer and speak up if he is
misunderstood - many do and many of them learn a lot!
Carol
--
Carwyn Silky Terriers
Carey Gregory
Gail B. Mackiernan wrote:
>
> If that is elitist, so be it, but I think if you can't take at least
> reasonable care of your animals, you shouldn't have them.
>
> Gail Mackiernan
Amen!
--
Carey Gregory
Cindy Tittle Moore
Dogpatch <dogp...@imap1.asu.edu> writes:
>MacDuff wrote:
>> Deciding to BUY a dog requires (among other things) "financial planning",
>> Dogpatch. Catch a clue, magoo.
>Of course, we all should plan our emergencies. Things like lay-offs,
>illnesses etc are known well beforehand and people who don't consider
>those things are just morons, right?
Plan FOR emergencies, actually. I wouldn't call the above people morons,
per se, but lacking foresight, yes. If you think that these type of
things will NEVER happen to you...then yes, I'd start thinking...moron...
--Cindy
--
*** tit...@netcom.com *** http://www.zmall.com/pet_talk ***
WAGGERY U-CD Terrell's Chocolate Deduction CGC CDX--Hershe LABRADORS
------- Delby's Wood Nymph at Waggery WC CGC--Angel ---------
Cindy Tittle Moore
Some...@no-junkmail.com (Jason) writes:
>This is off topic, but why must the veterinarian offer delayed payments or a
>payment plan? Do you go into the grocery store, fill up a basket, go to the
>checker and tell them you'll pay next month? I don't think so.
Actually several local grocery stores have such plans for senior citizens
around here.
>Veterinarians are not banks, or credit unions. Doctors and Dentists don't let
>you "put it on your account", so why do people expect veterinarians to do
>this?
Doctors and dentists around here let you put things on account. You just
arrange with them before hand.
Don't get me wrong, I don't -expect- vets to do this. But if I ask about
it, I'm pretty sure I could find a couple who would agree to do so.
Helen and Charles Goodwin
Jason wrote:
>
> In article <5bbfem$j...@dismay.ucs.indiana.edu>, aly...@copper.ucs.indiana.edu
> says...
> > I had NO MONEY. But I didn't even hesitate? Why?
> >
> >First off, I have a good relationship with my vet. I trust him, and
> >further he knows of my commitment to my animals. Knowing these things I
> >had no doubt that *something* could be worked out... delayed payment,
> >payment plans, something.
>
> payment plan? Do you go into the grocery store, fill up a basket, go to the
> checker and tell them you'll pay next month? I don't think so.
>
> you "put it on your account", so why do people expect veterinarians to do
> this?
>
> card companies are for.
I have never had a vet who would not take instalments if needed. That
is because they preferred to treat an ill animal even if they could not
pay at once.
If people are poor and love their animals what other option do they have?
Helen
MacDuff
Cindy Tittle Moore wrote:
>
> Dogpatch <dogp...@imap1.asu.edu> writes:
> >MacDuff wrote:
> >> Deciding to BUY a dog requires (among other things) "financial planning",
>
> >illnesses etc are known well beforehand and people who don't consider
> >those things are just morons, right?
>
> Plan FOR emergencies, actually.
It's obvious people are not READING the notes. I highlighted (in caps) the term BUY
a dog. This statement does NOT disparage anyone who experiences tough times, like
lay-offs & such. However, you should always, like Cindy indicated, plan for
emergencies. It means tucking something, no matter how small, away bit by bit. A
lot of people do NOT do this and it doesn't mean they're poor, it means they haven't
*planned*.
I DO think people SHOULD plan for those types of emergencies that could come up.
Layoffs are becoming almost a part of life as companies are forever reorganizing.
You should TRY to plan ahead, not just for your pets sake, but for yours. People
who don't do this are NOT NOT NOT morons. They just aren't anticipating trouble
until it hits.
Quit putting words in my mouth, Dogpatch.
MacDuff
Elizabeth
In article <32D98B...@imap1.asu.edu>, dogp...@imap1.asu.edu says...
>Sorry, but when you've exhausted all resources just to live, there _are_
>no options left short of bankrobbery (I've been there). That's the
>reason this person was considering putting down his best friend--what a
>horrible choice to have to make.
You seem to think you can be sure, based only on someone's internet post,
that they truly HAVE exhausted all the options. I don't think you can
possibly know this.
My feelings about this:
1. A person should be in decent financial shape BEFORE they get a dog,
including having some kind of emergency plan in place (credit card,
credit at vet, savings account, etc.). IMO truly poor people should not
own dogs. Wait until you are out of trouble and stable.
2. Yes, things happen. However, financial disasters are rarely
instantaneous. If you have a savings account, a good relationship with
your vet, friends in dogs, etc., you will be able to deal with it. If
you are totally unprepared for disaster, then THAT'S your problem, and
the dog shouldn't have to suffer for your lack of foresight.
3. We HAVE been to the point where we were searching the couch for
pennies -- several times. We borrowed a LOT of money. We ran up credit
card bills we are still paying off. We cashed in our always perfect
payment record and great relationship with our vet and asked her to run
us credit, which she did, and she didn't regret it. WE knew we were poor,
and WE were pretty stressed out about it, but I promise you, our animals
never knew anything about it. In the middle of it, our cat developed
kidney disease and we spent $5K on the credit cards with no regrets.
My motto is this: Don't make promises you can't keep. If you make them,
keep them, no matter what.
In a world where any idiot can get a credit card, there's really no
excuse.
Elizabeth
Petie Durand
In article <5bbfkp$j...@dismay.ucs.indiana.edu>,
aly...@copper.ucs.indiana.edu (amy young-leith) wrote:
> In article <32D846...@imap1.asu.edu>,
> Dogpatch <Dogp...@imap1.asu.edu> wrote:
> >This guy seems go currently being going through both worse and poorer,
> >and IS keeping his commitment to best friend by doing whatever he's able
> >to for that dog.
>
> No, he's doing what is easiest for him. He mentioned an ending to his bad
> feelings having to watch his dog itch... well I have two solutions for
> him: FIND the money (beg, borrow, earn) or give the dog a chance in
> another home who CAN care for him.
>
Doesn't he realize that having a vet put the dog to sleep would cost that
same as a visit to see if he can be helped.
How can he afford a computer if thing are so bad?
Get the dog some help.
amy young-leith
In article <32e7ba3a...@news.Brigadoon.com>,
Carol Dunster <cdun...@Ritzville.org> wrote:
[...]
>You are not aware of the life circumstances of the people that you are
>calling a "very shameful, unsympathetic, and even "elitist" crowd" -
>does this make you a member? This man presented himself as someone
>that would consider euthanasia a better option than proper vet care
>because of cost. I find that offensive.
AMEN!
Whenever things turn less than candy and roses people start talking about
how "harsh" some people can be in their net postings. I've been guilty of
that, but it tends to be in groups like alt.flame where it "belongs." If
someone had approached me in person and asked for advice and presented the
same information as the poster did here... I probably would have gone off
MORE than I did in my postings. I have no qualms with pointing out
selfish, irresponsible actions to people who think pets are "cute" only
when they don't cost any coin or mess up the carpet.
amy
--
amy young-leith http://ezinfo.ucs.indiana.edu/~alyoung
1986 Shadow VT1100 (Dmitri) *Speaking only for myself*
Computer Geek, Department of Psychology 855.5542
amy young-leith
In article <32D9A8...@imap1.asu.edu>,
Dogpatch <Dogp...@imap1.asu.edu> wrote:
>Well, if it's an older dog that you've had for years (as in this case),
>it might just be kinder to put the dog down. Obviously, that would be
>the last resort for someone who loves their dog, so a person might
>conceivable ask others for advise.
>
> Dogpatch
For an old dog with a serious health problem and a dark prognosis, yes,
I'd agree that the thought might be considered more quickly than in other
situations.
"Itching" is not a horrible or untreatable canine problem, however, and I
believe you are still talking about that original post since you are still
posting under the thread. This guy hasn't even bothered to go to a vet to
find out what's wrong with the dog despite this being a long term
problem... DOESN'T THAT SAY SOMETHING TO YOU???
amy young-leith
In article <rdlinnem-140...@line7035.ras.ilstu.edu>,
dan linneman <rdli...@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu> wrote:
[...]
>(When my dog recently died of Diabetes and got sicker and sicker through
>his treatments, I got so much emotional support and advice from people on
>this newsgroup. I thought this was a great group, and I know I met so many
>compassionate people through it. I hate to see what it has deteriorated
>into in this case. I want the old compassionate group back!)
I have no doubt that this group is compassionate, when the person is
deserving of compassion, for I've gotten support from the group as well.
But to expect someone who posts saying that he hasn't even taken his pet
to a vet for a dermo problem, but is considering killing it, to receive
compassion? Not from me!
amy young-leith
In article <32da9...@kalama1.kalama.com>,
Jason <Some...@no-junkmail.com> wrote:
>This is off topic, but why must the veterinarian offer delayed payments or a
>payment plan? Do you go into the grocery store, fill up a basket, go to the
>checker and tell them you'll pay next month? I don't think so.
No vet "must." But, just as a friend would trust me and lend me money if
I really needed it, a vet who has a close relationship with their patients
can be a friend when you need one, too. It's a give and take
relationship. No vet who knows their patients and their owners and is
worth a damn wants to see an animal and a friend suffer all for the need
of a few bucks which they'll get back, in spades, in a few days. Hell, my
vet has made a mint off of the people I've referred to him!
>Veterinarians are not banks, or credit unions. Doctors and Dentists don't let
>you "put it on your account", so why do people expect veterinarians to do
>this?
Actually yes, both my family doctor and my dentist have done this.
amy young-leith
In article <32D98C...@imap1.asu.edu>,
Dogpatch <Dogp...@imap1.asu.edu> wrote:
>What makes you assume he's paying for either I-Net or the `pute? Some
>people have access at work or at school, you know. I realize that it's
>hard to understand what it's like to be in that sort of position, but it
>happens. Why can't people accept the fact that someone's broke?
EVEN if he's broke, his way of handling the situation shows a very big
lack of compassion and responsability. As I said in a previous post, I've
gone to the vet with a problem, FLAT BROKE (that means not even any coins
left between the couch cushions) and dealt with a problem a hell of a lot
more serious and expensive than a skin condition which may be a vitamin
deficientcy or food allergy.
Broke or not if he loves the dog, he will find a way to diagnose and cure
his problem. Perhaps if he surfs the net less and gets a second job?
>BTW, I've gotten a lot of E-Mail on this one and it's running 95% in
>agreement with me. I notice that those people haven't posted to the
>newsgroup though. I guess they feel they wouldn't be believed either.
Yeah, right.
Andromeda
In article <tittleE4...@netcom.com>, Cindy Tittle Moore
<tit...@netcom.com.?> writes
>Dogpatch <dogp...@imap1.asu.edu> writes:
>
>>Of course, we all should plan our emergencies. Things like lay-offs,
>>illnesses etc are known well beforehand and people who don't consider
>>those things are just morons, right?
>
>per se, but lacking foresight, yes. If you think that these type of
>things will NEVER happen to you...then yes, I'd start thinking...moron...
I've been watching this for ages, and have not made up my mind on the
original poster as I sympathise with those who get into difficulty, but
did not like the way he made it clear that he had *chosen* to spend his
money on other things.
But I was wondering...
Don't you lot have veterinary insurance over there to help plan for bad
times...???
Are there no animal charities to help you if you get caught out...???
What about charity veterinary hospitals and the clinics associated with
animal shelters...???
You have an SPCA of some kind - what do they do...???...I thought they
were based on our RSPCA...
- ANDREA
--
^`'~*-,._.,-*~'`^`'~*-,._.,-*~'`^`'~*-,._.,-*~'`^`'~*-,._.,-*~'`^
<and...@bloodaxe.demon.co.uk> ANDROMEDA - Internet Goddess
<aj...@ukc.ac.uk> Supporting Valid HTML
<bloo...@geocities.com> Member: HTML Writers Guild
<bloo...@bigfoot.com> http://www.bloodaxe.demon.co.uk/
* ~ * ~ * ~ * ~ *
Bloodaxe's History Links: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/5055/
The Loony Bin Archive: http://eleceng.ukc.ac.uk/~pjw/loonies/
Sarra M
Dogpatch <dogp...@imap1.asu.edu> wrote in article
<32D846...@imap1.asu.edu>...
>
> What I'm hearing in this newgroup is that only the financially well-off
> should be privileged to have pets, and if they temporarily fall on hard
> times, those pets should be given up. What an elitist attitude!
The author did say that if it was an EMERGENCY he/she would find the
money. Quote follows:
>
(I have a lot of
> pets to feed and money is tight, though if it were an emergency, I
> would find the money.
Somehow IMO if the alternative is euthanasia it is an emergency. Besides
if they can't afford a vet visit to find out it's maybe a seasonal allergy,
how are they going to pay for the euthanasia? Last time I checked, that
costs more than a visit.
If you have so many pets you can't afford to care for all of them properly
then something is wrong. There are alternatives, many SPCA's have clinics
where the fees are much lower than a private veterinary hospital.
I don't think it's elitist to want people to realize the LIFELONG
COMMITMENT that is required when you take an animal into your home.
Sarra M.
Leah Clinkscales
I've been reading this ongoing "debate" for several days and I really
feel like I need to put my two-cents worth in. Even though the original
poster *thinks* he's found a cure. I hope for the dog's sake he has.
God forbid he should start scratching again.
First off, I can't believe the dog was kept in an Elizabethan collar for
so long! Can you image what torture the poor thing went through? The
person who owns this dog sounds more irritated and disgusted with the
dog than anything else.
And I have seen plenty of compassion in this newsgroup; especially in
this instance. The compassion is directed toward the dog. Why would I
have any compassion for a person who is considering euthanasia for his
pet before all obvious options are explored? He's poor? He's down on
his luck? (When he always seems to find something else to spend the
money on? Hmmm.) Pity. Someone, somewhere would be happy to take the
animal off his hands. If I had the means, I would!
My family is by no means rich; we're not even "well-off". We live from
paycheck to paycheck. At this moment our 4 1/2 year old Golden
Retriever is in the hospital with an undiagnosed disease. When we
brought her in Sunday we thought we were going to lose her. However,
she has improved and may come home today. Even though I knew the cost
would be more than we could afford I certainly didn't have any other
choice. So far our bill is in excess of $1000.00. But Cagney is well
and I don't regret a cent. If she weren't okay I would still not regret
it because I would know I tried all I could. Cagney trusts me and it is
my responsibility to care for her. I knew that we she became a part of
our family.
Now, I understand that someone who didn't have the money would be
inclined to treat a dog with a minor problem themselves. I probably
would try that first, too. However, it's ludicrous that someone would
consider euthanizing his pet because all his home remedies failed. And
the point is, this is a skin problem that can probably controlled or
cured. If not, a veterinarian can help with the decision to euthanize
or not. Give me a break. Is the original post real? I really have a
hard time believing it. It sickens me.
Sorry this is so long but I had to get this off of my chest.
Leah
Roger Anderson
You know the RCA dog hears his master's voice. Anyone know what kind of
dog that is?
Helen and Charles Goodwin
Roger Anderson wrote:
>
> You know the RCA dog hears his master's voice. Anyone know what kind of
> dog that is?
I think it is a fox terrier.
Lloyd Ferguson
In article <32E082...@netcomuk.co.uk>, Helen and Charles Goodwin
<hgoo...@netcomuk.co.uk> wrote:
You are probably right.
BTW his name is Nipper and he is actually sitting on his master's casket.
Lloyd Ferguson
ferg...@themall.net
Tom Stevenson
In article <32DFF3...@Bangate.Compaq.com>, Roger Anderson <R...@Bangate.Compaq.com> says:
>
>You know the RCA dog hears his master's voice. Anyone know what kind of
>dog that is?
The real Nipper (probably the most famous dog in the world!!) was
a mixed breed, part Bull Terrier and a little Fox Terrier.
There is a pretty cool Nipper website at:
http://www.ais.org/~lsa/nipper.html
Tom Stevenson
tho...@dca.net
Laurel
Roger Anderson <R...@Bangate.Compaq.com> wrote:
>You know the RCA dog hears his master's voice. Anyone know what kind of
>dog that is?
It is a Jack Russell Terrier.
************************************************************
Breeder of Jack Russell Terriers, and Thoroughbred Race
Horses. Have you ever thought about getting into the
Sport of Kings? A Small Racing Partnership, email to get
info. My webpage:)) http://free.websight.com/Foster
Jason
In article <01bc0378$965457c0$fa0542ce@sarrawri>, sar...@airmail.net says...
>I don't think it's elitist to want people to realize the LIFELONG
>COMMITMENT that is required when you take an animal into your home.
>
>Sarra M.
>
Sounds like euthanasia is completing the "lifelong commitment" to me. Better
than dumping the animal on the side of the road. The animal would probably be
better off euthanised than suffering. If this person cannot take proper care
of this animal, they should not own as many animals (or any) as they do.
Sounds like they took on more responsibility than they could handle.
Typical.... people get pets without considering the investment (time, money,
etc.) involved in caring for a pet. Same sad story we see every day.
Jason
Jennifer Royce
jlr...@ctainforms.com (Laurel) wrote:
>Roger Anderson <R...@Bangate.Compaq.com> wrote:
>>You know the RCA dog hears his master's voice. Anyone know what kind of
>>dog that is?
>It is a Jack Russell Terrier.
Then what kind of dog is Eddie on Frazier?
Jennifer Royce
(and Bailey and Zoe and Cosmo)
http://www.spectra.net/~tworabit
twor...@spectra.net
-------------------------------------------------------------
~~~Southern Tier Rabbit Care Network~~~
~P.O. Box 27, Johnson City, NY 13790~
http://www.spectra.net/~tworabit/strcn.htm
-------------------------------------------------------------
Silence: Music's original alternative
Craw...@rest.com
Eddie is also a Jack Russell Terrier.
Cindy Tittle Moore
jlr...@ctainforms.com (Laurel) writes:
>Roger Anderson <R...@Bangate.Compaq.com> wrote:
>>You know the RCA dog hears his master's voice. Anyone know what kind of
>>dog that is?
>It is a Jack Russell Terrier.
What kind of bull pucky is this? THe original ad has a pit bull or
pit bull mix in it.
Susan Mudgett aka little gator
Cindy Tittle Moore (tit...@netcom.com.) wrote:
: What kind of bull pucky is this? THe original ad has a pit bull or
: pit bull mix in it.
There's a lot of controversy about the original Nipper. Many old
sources say he was a purebred, though not fitting the standard, Smooth
Fox Terrier. Others have said he was a Pit Bull(APBT) or a mix of
either or both breeds. I've seen some poorly bred, not to standard
Smooth Fox Terriers who looked a lot like him.
Mojo'sMom
amy young-leith wrote:
>
> In article <32da9...@kalama1.kalama.com>,
> Jason <Some...@no-junkmail.com> wrote:
> >This is off topic, but why must the veterinarian offer delayed payments or a
> >payment plan? Do you go into the grocery store, fill up a basket, go to the
> >checker and tell them you'll pay next month? I don't think so.
>
> No vet "must." But, just as a friend would trust me and lend me money if
> I really needed it, a vet who has a close relationship with their patients
> can be a friend when you need one, too. It's a give and take
> relationship. No vet who knows their patients and their owners and is
> worth a damn wants to see an animal and a friend suffer all for the need
> of a few bucks which they'll get back, in spades, in a few days. Hell, my
> vet has made a mint off of the people I've referred to him!
>
> >Veterinarians are not banks, or credit unions. Doctors and Dentists don't let
> >you "put it on your account", so why do people expect veterinarians to do
> >this?
>
> Actually yes, both my family doctor and my dentist have done this.
>
> --
> amy young-leith http://ezinfo.ucs.indiana.edu/~alyoung
> 1986 Shadow VT1100 (Dmitri) *Speaking only for myself*
> Computer Geek, Department of Psychology 855.5542
puppy and has found the money to take that one to the vet. Why is
it that the other one wasn't worthy? Because it was older? He had
enough money to get a puppy , feed another puppy, and take it to a vet.
Still think we were too harsh on Lawrence?
Methinks Lawrence thinks the newer, younger one is more deserving of the
money spent.
Terri
Ken M.
Joel Rubin wrote:
>
> I understand that the original painting had an Edison cylinder
> phonograph and that when Edison's company didn't buy it, the painter
> (anyone know the name?) repainted the device and sold it to the
> (British) Grammophone Company, later EMI, which licensed the TM in
> the Americas and Japan to Victor.
>
> So, if the Edison phonograph could be repainted as a Berliner
> grammophone, maybe the dog too could have been repainted on order of
> the purchaser.
>
> "The Misinformation Highway Begins Here."
>
> -- Monty Python Web Site (http://www.pythonline.com)
There is also some recent history about the RCA dog that sat in
Baltimore, Maryland. Many years ago the company sold the dog (at
an auction I believe) to a resident in Virginia, who restored it.
I think Baltimore City bought the dog back a few years ago for
a "pretty penny."
I'll see if I can find out more on this -- as well as the breed.
(Ken)
Dogpatch
amy young-leith wrote:
> It upsets me greatly to hear of people who complain about the cost of pet
> care, or who, worse, consider putting an animal down for a treatable
> condition because they cannot afford to have the animal examined by a vet!
> May I ask just HOW the animal was going to be "euthenized?" If you take
> the animal to a vet, that costs, you know.
People can take a dog to the Humane Society or even the Rabies Control.
> I take my responsability to my animals seriously, very seriously.
As do most people who adopt animals. I must ask, though, if you have a
crystal ball to know what's in your future? Do you know for a fact that
you won't become seriously ill, or lose your job?
> And although I live
> from paycheck to paycheck with little savings,
At least you have a paycheck and savings. Many people have neither
(through no fault of their own) and have even cashed in life insurance
to live.
Arguments like this remind me of someone who had trouble understanding
when people didn't have a crust of bread to eat so she said, "Let them
eat cake!" (I believe her compassion earned her a just reward, too.)
Dogpatch
Dogpatch
dan linneman wrote:
> I am not trying to be condescending, those are just the facts. There are
> a lot of governement programs to help people and their kids to have basic
> needs for survival when they run into extreme financial difficulties.
> There are no government plans (as far as I know) to help furkids of people
> who hit hard times. Therefore, what is one to do if they unexpectedly hit
> hard times and their pets get sick?
> Here are some helpful suggestions:
> 1. Some vets are in a position to offer payment plans
If you can't even make payments to keep a roof over your head (and many
people are in that situation) how can they make vet payments?
> 2. Some colleges and universities have excellent veterinary colleges that will
> see your pet for free
If a person live around those institutions.
> 3. You can ask for help over the internet in a newsgroup, and hopefully
> you will run into compassionate people with suggestions.
That's what was hoped for in the message that was received, but many
people were much less than charitable.
If people really believe someone is lying, it will still help the dog to
give good advice. If the person is telling the truth, it will still help
the dog.... Why can't people answer someone's question without all the
holy than thou lectures? Isn't their goal to help the dog?
Dogpatch
Ken M.
Dogpatch wrote:
>
> dan linneman wrote:
> > I am not trying to be condescending, those are just the facts. There
> > are a lot of governement programs to help people and their kids to
> > have basic needs for survival when they run into extreme financial
> > difficulties. There are no government plans (as far as I know) to
> > help furkids of people who hit hard times. Therefore, what is one to
> > do if they unexpectedly hit hard times and their pets get sick?
Instead of picking up your telephone and calling a fews Vets, just to
ask around -- if maybe there was "one" who might help you with your
dilemma -- you posted a "debate" message over the newsgroup. Your
priorities are a little mixed up.
> If people really believe someone is lying, it will still help the dog
> to give good advice. If the person is telling the truth, it will still
> help the dog.... Why can't people answer someone's question without all
> the holy than thou lectures? Isn't their goal to help the dog?
>
> Dogpatch
Because many pet lovers are reluctant to assist, or have sympathy, for
someone who is deciding whether or not -- to "put down" a 13 yr old
dog due to "severe itching." That's why!
(Ken)
Laurel
tit...@netcom.com. (Cindy Tittle Moore) wrote:
>jlr...@ctainforms.com (Laurel) writes:
>>Roger Anderson <R...@Bangate.Compaq.com> wrote:
>>>You know the RCA dog hears his master's voice. Anyone know what kind of
>>>dog that is?
>>It is a Jack Russell Terrier.
>What kind of bull pucky is this? THe original ad has a pit bull or
>pit bull mix in it.
Cindy
This is bull toooooooooooooo.
I sure thought you were allot nicer person than this.
I would never say that any thing you said was BULL PUCKY!
Laurel
Joel Rubin
On 20 Jan 1997 13:08:57 GMT, s...@harvee.billerica.ma.us (Susan Mudgett
aka little gator) wrote:
>
>Cindy Tittle Moore (tit...@netcom.com.) wrote:
>
>: What kind of bull pucky is this? THe original ad has a pit bull or
>: pit bull mix in it.
>
>There's a lot of controversy about the original Nipper. Many old
>sources say he was a purebred, though not fitting the standard, Smooth
>Fox Terrier. Others have said he was a Pit Bull(APBT) or a mix of
>either or both breeds. I've seen some poorly bred, not to standard
>Smooth Fox Terriers who looked a lot like him.
I understand that the original painting had an Edison cylinder
phonograph and that when Edison's company didn't buy it, the painter
(anyone know the name?) repainted the device and sold it to the
(British) Grammophone Company, later EMI, which licensed the TM in
the Americas and Japan to Victor.
So, if the Edison phonograph could be repainted as a Berliner
grammophone, maybe the dog too could have been repainted on order of
the purchaser.
"The Misinformation Highway Begins Here."
-- Monty Python Web Site (http://www.pythonline.com)
Remove the /*nospam*/ from my email address for an email reply.
Warning--I complain about junk mail and I know how to read headers,
use WHOIS and TRACEROUTE.
r...@dane1.warp.co.uk
On 16 Jan 1997 16:26:19 GMT, aly...@copper.ucs.indiana.edu (amy
young-leith) wrote:
>In article <rdlinnem-140...@line7035.ras.ilstu.edu>,
>dan linneman <rdli...@rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu> wrote:
>But to expect someone who posts saying that he hasn't even taken his pet
>to a vet for a dermo problem, but is considering killing it, to receive
>compassion? Not from me!
I have kept myself out of this debate untill now because I have been
trying to work out just what you all where on about !!! . But at long
last amy has put the whole thing in a nut shell and I second what
she says above . But have any of you considered that this guy might
just not even own any dog and just put up the post to start a long
protracted debate which he as been successfull in so doing
Ron .
r...@dane1.warp.co.uk
R/L Davis
> >There's a lot of controversy about the original Nipper. Many old
> >sources say he was a purebred, though not fitting the standard, Smooth
> >Fox Terrier. Others have said he was a Pit Bull(APBT) or a mix of
> >either or both breeds. I've seen some poorly bred, not to standard
> >Smooth Fox Terriers who looked a lot like him.
>
> I understand that the original painting had an Edison cylinder
> phonograph and that when Edison's company didn't buy it, the painter
> (anyone know the name?) repainted the device and sold it to the
> (British) Grammophone Company, later EMI, which licensed the TM in
> the Americas and Japan to Victor.
>
> So, if the Edison phonograph could be repainted as a Berliner
> grammophone, maybe the dog too could have been repainted on order of
> the purchaser.
In "The New Fox Terriers" by Harold Nedell there is a picture of the
painting "Nipper" by English artist Francis Barraud.
Fox terriers were very popular at the turn of the century and so there
were alot of poor examples of the breed. He apparently lived a happy and
long life with his master.
Regards, LINDA
Dogpatch
amy young-leith wrote:
> You think they should instead be killed! THAT'S a great attitude.
I never said that or even suggested it. Please re-check your facts! What
I am saying is that more people should try to help others instead of
being so damned self-riteous and judgmental. This person asked for
advice and was flamed for it. Guess that'll teach people that it's
better to have their dogs suffer than to try to do something, huh? Great
attitude.
Dogpatch
Dogpatch
Petie Durand wrote:
> Doesn't he realize that having a vet put the dog to sleep would cost that
> same as a visit to see if he can be helped.
Putting the dog down was his last resort and there are other places a
person can have it done--Humane Society, Rabies Control. The thing is he
was asking for advice so that wouldn't happen, but everybody was more
interested in preaching at him than giving him and the dog some help.
> How can he afford a computer if thing are so bad?
What makes you think he owns the computer he uses? Again, there are
other places.
> Get the dog some help.
He was TRYING, but this helpful group was more interested in casting the
first stone.
Look at it this way: If someone posts and is lying about their personal
situation (for whatever reason) they aren't going to gain by the
lectures and the dog will suffer from no care at all. If they're telling
the truth, they aren't going to gain from lectures and the dog will
suffer from no care at all. Get it? Help the dog, not the person.
Dogpatch
Dogpatch
Ken M. wrote:
> And if someone had a sickly dog that needed attention, I'd probably
> loan them some money. What would you do? Put your money where your
> mouth is!
That's nice to hear, but I have a feeling that they would be criticized
for borrowing money to care for a pet when they can't care for their
human family. People are awfully quick to judge others know.
Dogpatch
Dogpatch
Ken M. wrote:
> If I were that "broke" I think I would get on the Internet and beg for
> money -- before even considering "putting down" my dog. Then again,
> I love my dog.
Ken, I have to agree with you, but we aren't in this guy's shoes. I've
been through some things I never thought I'd ever have to face in this
life, and I work with a population that have stories much stranger than
fiction. I've learned not to be too quick to judge others.
> I don't even think he owns one!
I suppose that's always a possibility, but he's written me to let me
know the dog's doing well now that he's started treatment as suggested
by helpful people on line. I for one am glad to know that things turned
out well.
Dogpatch
Dogpatch
Ken M. wrote:
> Ah, I don't think so. Are they "Internet shy?"
How would I know if they're "Internet shy"? I'm sure not going to flame
them without knowing anything about their motives. (Subtle, huh?)
> It's such a sad situation. I wonder why he didn't consider giving up his
> fish and other pets, as well.
Maybe the fish weren't itching.<g> Or, maybe the people who post on the
fish newsgroups are more willing to help.
Dogpatch
TJU USENET News User
nad...@erols.com wrote:
: Ken: Sounds like a very sensible suggestion!
: Ken M. wrote:
: >
: > Lawrence wrote:
: > >
: > > I would appreciate some well thought out, non-emotional ( I got enough
: > > of that for myself) advice to my problem. I have a 13-year old terrier
: > > mutt whom I love dearly. Hannibal is driving me and himself nuts!!
: > > For most of his life, he has had a minor skin problem, nothing serious.
: > > Well, about 2 years ago, it became serious, so much so that he took a
: > > large chunk of hair out and made himself bleed. Well, then I got a
: > > 'cone' that he wore for about 1 1/2 years. In the mean time, I tried
: > > EVERYTHING, creams, sprays, shampoos... I did see a remarkable change
: > > when I switched to Nutra-Nuggets dog food. Well, he is at it again,
: > > not quite as severe, but getting there.
: > > O.k., here is were people will get angry. No, he has not been to vet
: > > for this. I simply can not afford it and I can't find anything wrong
: > > with his skin (looked for mites w/magnifying glass). I am sorry if
: > > this upsets anyone. I give my pets lots of love, they all live in the
: > > house, and they get good food. Spaying/neutering and shots are a must,
: > > but I just can't afford a trip to the vet for this.(I have a lot of
: > > pets to feed and money is tight, though if it were an emergency, I
: > > would find the money.
: >
: > I'm starting to get the picture here -- this isn't an emergency, but
: > you are thinking about "putting down" your dog? Hmmmmm...
: >
: > > Though I suppose some may consider this an emergency...) Sooo, I would
: > > appreciate advice about weather or not I should consider euthanising
: > > him for his own sake (discomfort, and I yell at him to stop it!!) Of
: > > course, any advice about how to fix the problem will be greatly
: > > appreciated also. This is a decision that I almost made before the
: > > previous improvement. But, I always found something else to do with
: > > the money.
: >
: > Don't we all!
: >
: > > I DO NOT want to do this, but can't stand to see him uncomftable(sp?).
: > > He is my Bud, I have had him since he was a tiny pup and he peed on me
: > > on the way home. He helped me potty train my first pug, though now he
: > > is being 'bad' about that. When his skin was doing good, his hair is
: > > so beatiful, but with all the itching, he has spit spots and tangels
: > > and looks like a homeless dog.
: >
: > Doesn't look so good now, right?
: >
: > > I realize that this will be my decision in the end, but would like some
: > > feedback, what would you do??
: > > Please respond directly, I don't get to the newsgroups everyday.
: > > Thanks,
: > > Bobbie
: >
: > The most logical thing to do is -- find some money and take your dog
: > to a Veterinarian for proper treatment. From what you have described,
: > it sounds like your dog is suffering from allergies. At minimum, the
: > Vet would check for fleas, mites, etc, and give your dog some prednisone
: > for quick relief. It could be a "seasonal" allergy. You said it happens
: > now and then.
: >
: > If you can't do that -- I'd take all of your critters to a "no-kill"
: > shelter and give them away for adoption so they can be properly
: > treated when they become ill.
: >
: > And -- of course -- never get another dog or cat again. Just find a
: > cute stuffed animal.
: >
: > (Ken)
: >
: > K...@doglover.com
dan linneman
I couldn't agree with you more, Dogpatch! :)
Melynda
Paul Dunkel
>> I understand that the original painting had an Edison cylinder
>> phonograph and that when Edison's company didn't buy it, the painter
>> (anyone know the name?) repainted the device and sold it to the
>> ...
>There is also some recent history about the RCA dog that sat in
>Baltimore, Maryland. Many years ago the company sold the dog (at
>...
I wouldn't bet on any breed on that logo. But the repainting theory
would explain the size of the dog... The dog is in the logo more close
to Pit Bull size than any other breed.
But also, Edison had a Pit Bull, could that have an influence to the
artist?
Paul Dunkel
--
email to: pdu...@cc.hut.fi
SATHY's home page is:
http://www.hut.fi/~pdunkel
Mrs Mcall
r...@dane1.warp.co.uk wrote:
I agree...I think that very often posts are put in simply to be
controversial and get a flame going. It is hard to believe sometimes
that they can be genuine.
Dina from Oz
Jeff & Sandy
Mrs Mcall wrote:
>
> I agree...I think that very often posts are put in simply to be
> controversial and get a flame going. It is hard to believe sometimes
> that they can be genuine.
>
> Dina from Oz
Fellow Critter Lovers,
I just happened upon this thread...don't normally read this newsgroup.
But here's my 2 cents... I read the thread and immediately recognized
the name "Bobbie" from postings to the ..grief.pet-loss news group. So
regardless of what you might think about Bobbie's financial
status/habits, I would say she or he does care about he(r) animals.
That's it.
- Sandy
J...@knows.it.all.ha
jlr...@ctainforms.com (Laurel) wrote:
>Roger Anderson <R...@Bangate.Compaq.com> wrote:
>>You know the RCA dog hears his master's voice. Anyone know what kind of
>>dog that is?
>It is a Jack Russell Terrier.
>************************************************************
>Breeder of Jack Russell Terriers, and Thoroughbred Race
>Horses. Have you ever thought about getting into the
>Sport of Kings? A Small Racing Partnership, email to get
>info. My webpage:)) http://free.websight.com/Foster
The RCA dog is a fox terrier named Nipper, the pup is called Chipper
from Super Trivia Encyclopidia by Fred L. Worth.........Jack Russels
have shorter legs.....
Amy Young-Leith
In article <32E58F...@imap1.asu.edu>,
Dogpatch <Dogp...@imap1.asu.edu> wrote:
>Putting the dog down was his last resort and there are other places a
>person can have it done--Humane Society, Rabies Control. The thing is he
>was asking for advice so that wouldn't happen, but everybody was more
>interested in preaching at him than giving him and the dog some help.
Dogpatch, either you are very naive or very gullible. It's not simply a
kind heart for I've seen you dig your teeth into people on this group with
the best of 'em. Why defend this individual so strongly? We are only
responding to *the information he provided* which painted a pretty selfish
story.
I gave this person the advise I could... I have a dog with allergies
resulting in skin issues and I found nothing that would cure her (no
shampoos, no oils, no whatevers) until I went to the vet. Hence, my
advice was to FIND A WAY to go to the vet.
Amy Young-Leith
In article <32e41cfd...@news.warp.co.uk>, <r...@dane1.warp.co.uk> wrote:
>I have kept myself out of this debate untill now because I have been
>trying to work out just what you all where on about !!! . But at long
>last amy has put the whole thing in a nut shell and I second what
>she says above . But have any of you considered that this guy might
>just not even own any dog and just put up the post to start a long
>protracted debate which he as been successfull in so doing
> Ron .
Unfortunately an attitude such as the original poster's wouldn't surprise
me. After volunteering for the humane shelter and working evenings in a
pet store, I have heard more cruelty and idiocy than I ever thought
existed.
Amy Young-Leith
In article <32E423...@imap1.asu.edu>,
Dogpatch <Dogp...@imap1.asu.edu> wrote:
>People can take a dog to the Humane Society or even the Rabies Control.
That is true.
>As do most people who adopt animals. I must ask, though, if you have a
>crystal ball to know what's in your future? Do you know for a fact that
>you won't become seriously ill, or lose your job?
Most? I disagree with you. Most people WE SEE HERE on this newsgroup?
Yes. But most
people in general? No, not at all! This comes from having worked in a
pet store and having people tell me, "I got this hamster and he's really
boring. It won't hurt him very much if I flush him, would it? I mean I
know it'll kill him, but he'll die quick, right?" And seeing the people
who adopt a dog, bring it back in two weeks and then attempt to adopt
another one a month later... or people who bring in multiple dogs on a
regular basis ("Got this one from a friend, he barks in the morning, if
you don't kill him I will"), or... need I go on?
I'd forgo a hell of a lot of things including Internet access (whether
it's time or money, EITHER could be spent towards the benefit of the dog.
The person has time to peruse a variety of groups apparently [Deja News],
they have enough time to get a crappy job at McDonalds which will pay for
the vet) before I'd consider even finding the dog another home. I'd NEVER
consider euthenasia for a dog just because it was inconvenient for me!
Susan Mudgett aka little gator
: >Putting the dog down was his last resort and there are other places a
: >person can have it done--Humane Society, Rabies Control. The thing is he
: >was asking for advice so that wouldn't happen, but everybody was more
: >interested in preaching at him than giving him and the dog some help.
Money wasn't the only reason he gave for preferring euthanasia to
veterinary treatment. He also said he didn't think vets in general
were any good and that he felt sorry for his dog always getting yelled
at when he nagged it to stop scratching.
Sarra M
> I'd forgo a hell of a lot of things including Internet access (whether
> it's time or money, EITHER could be spent towards the benefit of the dog.
> The person has time to peruse a variety of groups apparently [Deja News],
> they have enough time to get a crappy job at McDonalds which will pay for
> the vet) before I'd consider even finding the dog another home. I'd
NEVER
> consider euthenasia for a dog just because it was inconvenient for me!
>
> amy
Amy,
I agree, euthanasia is the all too easy way out of the inconvience of
owning an animal. And having worked at a pet store I've seen my share of
impulse purchases, and when working at an animal shelter I saw the result
of those impulse purchases...we had a freezer full of them.
How about his most obvious option, offering to work off the bill at the vet
doing whatever it takes, be it sweeping floors or cleaning cages to make
enough money to pay the bill for the treatment. Some vets wouldn't be
interested in taking the chance, but I know that there are some that would.
Sarra
ash...@erols.com
"Ken M." <K...@doglover.com> wrote:
>Joel Rubin wrote:
>
>>
>> I understand that the original painting had an Edison cylinder
>> phonograph and that when Edison's company didn't buy it, the painter
>> (anyone know the name?) repainted the device and sold it to the
>> the Americas and Japan to Victor.
>>
>> So, if the Edison phonograph could be repainted as a Berliner
>> grammophone, maybe the dog too could have been repainted on order of
>> the purchaser.
>>
>>
>> -- Monty Python Web Site (http://www.pythonline.com)
>
>
>Baltimore, Maryland. Many years ago the company sold the dog (at
>I think Baltimore City bought the dog back a few years ago for
>a "pretty penny."
>
>I'll see if I can find out more on this -- as well as the breed.
>
>(Ken)
>
>K...@doglover.com
I live in Northern Virginia, and yep, the RCA dog statue was here, it was
huge, and perched in someone's yard. I used to pass it all the time while
running errands, but I havn't seen it in years.
Sarra M
Jason <Some...@no-junkmail.com> wrote in article
<32e1b...@kalama1.kalama.com>...
> In article <01bc0378$965457c0$fa0542ce@sarrawri>, sar...@airmail.net
says...
>
>
> Sounds like euthanasia is completing the "lifelong commitment" to me.
Better
> than dumping the animal on the side of the road.
Calling euthanasia the completion of the lifelong commitment, is only true
when it is used as a last resort for an animal for which the quality of
life has declined to a point where it is more fair to end life than try to
sustain it.
Euthanasia is not the solution to the animal being an inconvienence to the
owner. Neither is dumping an animal by the side of the road.
Unfortunately way too many people have the attitude that animals are
"throwaways", if you get bored or tired of it, just get rid of it. If it
needs medical attention, get rid of it and get a new one.
The animal would probably be better off euthanised than suffering. If
this person cannot take proper care
> of this animal, they should not own as many animals (or any) as they do.
Sounds like they took on more responsibility than they could handle.
If you look in the Deja News postings under this persons ID, they post in
several animal related groups and at last count have three dogs, at least
one cat, a ferret, a rabbit, goldfish, frogs and are looking into an iguana
rescue so they can get one of them. One of the dogs is a new puppy that
they just got. Now if you can't afford to take your older dog to the vet
after he has been suffering for two years, how can you take on the added
responsibility of a new pet? Even if you do have a fifty pound bag of food
laying around? Obviously the whole seeder was a blatant troll to get
everybody going, and unfortunately (or fortunately) most of us have very
strong feelings about animal welfare.
> Typical.... people get pets without considering the investment (time,
money,
> etc.) involved in caring for a pet. Same sad story we see every day.
Too true and very sad...for the animals.
Personally I own a dog, a cat, three parakeets, two turtles, an african
hedgehog, a ferret, and five aquariums. And if I had to, I would eat
macaroni and cheese 7 days a week to make sure they were receiving properly
care.
Sarra
Dogpatch
Amy Young-Leith wrote:
> Dogpatch, either you are very naive or very gullible. It's not simply a
> kind heart for I've seen you dig your teeth into people on this group with
> the best of 'em. Why defend this individual so strongly? We are only
> responding to *the information he provided* which painted a pretty selfish
> story.
OK, to get my point across, let's just say that the owner was the worst
sack of sh-t on the face of the earth.
Does criticizing him help the dog? No. If he's really as irresponsible
as is claimed by some, he sure isn't about to care what the writers
think.
Does it improve the sack of sh-t? No. He would quite likely just get
angry and never try to get _any_ help for his pet.
Will giving advice cost you anything? Not unless your online service
charges by time.
Could giving the advice possibly help the dog? Yes, it did (and I was
under the impression that's what we all wanted).
Does it really make any difference if we accept his story or not? Not to
the dog who only wants relief from the itching.
What I saw, was a bunch of very negative responses with very little
helpful advice. If people are really interested in helping the dog, this
is counterproductive. (I, for one, have long since lost the urge to
charge windmills.) I went ahead, accepted his story, and gave some
advice which, I'm pleased to say, helped the dog. I guess from all the
responses on this newsgroup, that I was wrong to care--And I'd do it
again in a shot!
Dogpatch
Kevin Oppenheimer
> I live in Northern Virginia, and yep, the RCA dog statue was here, it was
> huge, and perched in someone's yard. I used to pass it all the time while
> running errands, but I havn't seen it in years.
I was just in Hollywood, CA recently, and on the main drag (Hollywood
Blvd.?) they had the dog outside of a store. My friend took a picture with
it. I don't know if it is the original, but it sure looked like it. It was
large and pretty worn out.
*********************************************************************
Kevin Oppenheimer
Class of '98
LSU School of Veterinary Medicine
Once you go Mac, you'll never go back.
Windows '95=Macintosh '84
*********************************************************************
ROGER AND HERMINE STOVER
American Pit Bull Terrier. He is an icon to breed fanciers like myself!
The new, sanitized dog is a Jack Russel Terrier, for political
correctness.
her...@endangeredspecies.com
Susan Mudgett aka little gator
Dogpatch (dogp...@imap1.asu.edu) wrote:
: What I saw, was a bunch of very negative responses with very little
: helpful advice. If people are really interested in helping the dog, this
I saw quite a few people giving helpful advice.
bullt...@earthlink.net
On 18 Jan 97 22:52:19 GMT, tho...@dca.net (Tom Stevenson) wrote:
>>>In article <32DFF3...@Bangate.Compaq.com>, Roger Anderson <R...@Bangate.Compaq.com> says:
>>>>
>>>>You know the RCA dog hears his master's voice. Anyone know what kind of
>>>>dog that is?
>>>
>>>
>>>The real Nipper (probably the most famous dog in the world!!) was
>>>a mixed breed, part Bull Terrier and a little Fox Terrier.
>>>
>>>There is a pretty cool Nipper website at:
>>>
>>>http://www.ais.org/~lsa/nipper.html
>>>
>>>Tom Stevenson
>>>tho...@dca.net
You are correct!!!! The original Nipper was a half breed, bullterrier
and Fox terrier. Today RCA uses a Jack Russell, as the bull terrier
looks completely different than their original profile of more than 25
years ago. At the turn of the century, then bull terrier did not have
the downface, as exhibited today.
Stanley Chait
Cindy Tittle Moore wrote:
>
> jlr...@ctainforms.com (Laurel) writes:
>
> >Roger Anderson <R...@Bangate.Compaq.com> wrote:
>
> >>You know the RCA dog hears his master's voice. Anyone know what kind of
> >>dog that is?
>
> pit bull mix in it.
>
> --Cindy
> --
> *** tit...@netcom.com *** http://www.zmall.com/pet_talk ***
> WAGGERY U-CD Terrell's Chocolate Deduction CGC CDX--Hershe LABRADORS
> ------- Delby's Wood Nymph at Waggery WC CGC--Angel ---------
This discussion has run before and I replied then that the dog looking into the horn in the
ORIGINAL RCA Victor ad was a SMOOTH FOX TERRIER and his name was Nipper.
I belong to the Fox terrier Association in England and they often have articles about him in
their periodicals.
Stan....
Bryan Hinkle
Helen and Charles Goodwin (hgoo...@netcomuk.co.uk) wrote:
: Everything I have read about the dog said it was a smooth fox terrier.
: It can't be an American pit bull because that breed didn't exist then.
: Perhaps the Americans are using another dog in the same type of picture.
Beg to differ with you there. The APBT has been present from a much
earlier time than you refer to. if you like I could make you acquainted
with a few dozen pedigrees for dogs predating 1880.
As far as the original dog goes there is actually quite a good chance
that it was an APBT ,Edison did own one and was noted to be an enthusiast
of the breed. There are many stories claiming the dog involved to have been
one breed or another ...............who knows? The modern dog is a smooth
fox terrier. On another note you'll find the APBT and AmStaff popping up
in commercials quite aften if you look closely.
B.
Helen and Charles Goodwin
Everything I have read about the dog said it was a smooth fox terrier.