GSD
Charles M. Hollis
kennel in MO. Quite a substantial purchase price for a dog, but we feel it
is worth it for a quality companion. My question is, anyone out there own
one of these GSD's, or have any experience with Vom Waldenhaus.
TO...@dog-play.com
Well I just read their web page. http://waldenhaus.com/ They are truly
excellent at marketing their dogs. My family grew up with German
Shepherd Dogs. If I were looking for one today I would not be searching
at that kennel. They poo-poo the idea of actually evaluating dogs for
the qualities you want by objective measures. Why? Well they don't
trouble themselves to actually get objective evaluations of the qualities
of their dogs. Who decides whether their dogs are of wonderful
quality? Why THEY do. They make statements that show that they are not
at all knowledgable about the health issues of the breed. Statements
like "It is our understanding that 95% of all GSD's in America are
dysplastic" NONESENSE.
They turn negatives into positives like this ". We only produce 4 to 5
litters in a year and have found that raising pups in fall, winter and
early spring provides extra precaution for healthier puppies than during
the early summer months, when the deadly Parvovirus is usually at it's
peak. Our kennel is closed to all outside disease and pestilence." In
other words they are bringing 30 to 50 puppies into this world *every
year*. At $3,000 a piece that is a very tidy living indeed. The only
expenses that can be seen is OFA and housing. But they don't do any
other kind of health testing. Their guarantee covers only CHD, not other
genetic disease.
A real clue comes with the discussion on return of deposit.
"What is your policy on deposits and under what circumstances will a
deposit be refunded?"
First, let me define what a deposit means to us: We see it as
a promise or "good faith" commitment on the new owners part that they are
done shopping and have decided to buy from us. By this time in the
process, we have usually invested a fair amount of time and energy into
answering concerns and questions regarding the many faceted aspects of
owning one of these magnificent animals. Once that commitment is made, we
stop offering that open spot on the list to other interested parties and
in fact, turn prospective buyers away because of this agreement and
partial down payment made by the new owner.
Occasionally, things change in the life of the new owner and
we understand this fully and will try our best to make this change fit
both of our needs. If necessary. it is our policy to transfer the deposit
to the next litter or some reasonable future litter. We also will hold a
selected pup or GSD for 30 days after they are selected and paid for,
without any additional charge. If some longer extended time is required,
we will, for a small boarding fee of $40 a week, house the GSD here
depending on the needs of the new owner.
The only circumstance that a deposit is refundable is if
there are not enough pups born in a breeding that you might have selected
from and you do not want to wait for the next litter to be transferred
to. This rarely happens because we know our bloodlines so well we can
pretty much assure you that you will get what we promised, every time. In
other words, we hardly ever "over book reservations."
This clearly does not have the best intersts of the pup in mind. No
breeder that truly cares about their puppies wants to give people a
financial incentive to take a pup that they are unprepared to provide a
proper home for. I don't have a problem with breeders asking for
deposits. I do have a problem with a policy that prevents a refund
because the circumstances of the buyer have changed. A breeder that
cares about the future of the puppies would cough up that deposit double
quick, grateful that the puppy never went to that home.
While they state that they are not breeding for size they like to
emphazise the size and heavy structure of their dogs.
". Each litter produces some king-size pups and maximum for the standard
size pups, never anything less in size or stature. We do not and would
not breed specifically for over sized German Shepherds, but would not
sacrifice the excellent temperament we produce just because only a few
puppies in every litter happen to be slightly larger than the
standard. Good breeding is always an educated and well informed balancing
act."
The statement that "Good breeding is always an educated and well
informed balancing act." is true. But there is no evidence at all that
they apply those standards to their breeding program. Their dogs are
wonderful because they say they are wonderful.
The only health concerns they mention are hips. A knowledable and caring
breeder will do more.
Note that all of my comments are regarding presentation. That is all
that I have to judge. I do not have personal or direct information about
the breeder or the quality of the dogs produced. However, I see nothing
on the site to persuade me that these dogs are worth anything close to
the asking price. Nor do I see anything to persuade me that the breeders
are doing their part to reduce the numbers of dogs killed in
shelters. To the contrary they seem to be avidly contributing dogs to
the population, with little benefit to the dogs in return.
I would look for a hobby breeder. Ideally it is someone who isn't trying
to raise 30 puppies at one time. I would also look for a breeder who is
involved with the breed. That is someone who participates in health
registries, and who is actually educated on the genetics of the
breed. The site excels at selling.
Diane Blackman
http://www.dog-play.com/ http://www.dog-play.com/TOTE.html
"[The] ideal owner/dog propblem-solving orientation, . . . takes into
account the fact that dogs and people have their own special needs and
body langauge. "The Body Language and Emotion of Dogs" by Myrna M.
Milani, DVM.
Manadero
>My family grew up with German
>Shepherd Dogs. If I were looking for one today I would not be searching
>at that kennel.
I would like to second Diane's observations. Not only that, but if you are
truly looking for a "companion" dog (i.e. not interested in showing or
breeding) $3,000. is ridiculous. In fact, $3,000 is pretty far fetched for a
show/breeding *prospect* as well. Of course, if they don't show/work/compete
with their dogs, there really is no reason to sell as "show or breeding
quality", the proof is simply not there to back up their claims.
If you are looking for a nice pet, I happen to be very good friends with a
couple of long time GSD breeders who are also judges :) One of them has
decades of training experience as well. They have absolutely gorgeous dogs
(maybe one litter a year), have proven, titled dogs with all their health
clearances. Their pet pups from these litters run about $500 - $700.
I am sure that with a bit of research you can find a breeder that has similar
values. Seems silly to buy a pricey "less than" pup when you can have a well
bred puppy from proven, tested parents for a fraction of the cost.
Robin
Lynn Kosmakos
TO...@dog-play.com wrote:
> Well I just read their web page. http://waldenhaus.com/ They are truly
> excellent at marketing their dogs. My family grew up with German
> Shepherd Dogs. If I were looking for one today I would not be searching
> at that kennel.
I agree. I see nothing in the pedigrees given that would justify the
$3000 price. There are lots of fine dog linebred on von Arminus lines
that have a great deal more to offer. The last dog of real quality that
I recognize is Mark v. Haus Beck, much used. I'm troubled by no SV breed
surveys on any dog they've bred, no working titles, nebulous health
testing, in general lack of documentation of their claims of great
quality. The prices for their "young adults", which are actually
older breeding stock, are way out of line, especially for dogs that
are not proven at anything but breeding. There are NO accomplishments
for dogs they've bred, which is pretty amazing, given the number they
are churning out. They're producing a whole lot of dogs for the pet
market, and charging prices that are way out of line for that market.
For comparison, look at http://www.valkyre.com Much better dogs at
less than half the price, and from a well known and much respected
breeder (and SV Breed Warden).
Lynn K.
Gwen Watson
TO...@dog-play.com wrote:
> I would look for a hobby breeder. Ideally it is someone who isn't trying
> to raise 30 puppies at one time. I would also look for a breeder who is
> involved with the breed. That is someone who participates in health
> registries, and who is actually educated on the genetics of the
> breed. The site excels at selling.
>
> Diane Blackman
> http://www.dog-play.com/ http://www.dog-play.com/TOTE.html
> "[The] ideal owner/dog propblem-solving orientation, . . . takes into
> account the fact that dogs and people have their own special needs and
> body langauge. "The Body Language and Emotion of Dogs" by Myrna M.
> Milani, DVM.
I agree 100%. Besides $3000.00 for a GSD that is not imported
with at least ScHI title is completely outrageous and out of line.
There is nothing in the breeding of these dogs that suggests
adhering to what a GSD was meant to do IMHO.
I would definately be looking for hobby breeder that is interested
in adhering to what GSD standards.
Gwen
Charles M. Hollis
in titles, championships, or adherence to some arcane breeding standard set
forth by the AKC. We are looking for loyalty, companionship, instinctive
protective habits, and above all temperment. We want a dog that doesn't have
to be watched all the time to ensure it doesn't nip the neighbors kid when
my son has a friend over.
<TO...@dog-play.com> wrote in message news:8tiqde$1pvo$1...@nntp1.ba.best.com...
Tina
breed for selling pups, he had 8 female pups from this liter, no other pups in
his kennels,
he did as a hobby as with his showing etc. of the parents.
he was proud the sire had ofa excellent at 36mo. & dam good at 32. he has
excellent dogs & pups from them.
I cant imagine paying3000.00.for a GSD.
Just my opinions :o)
Tina/mookeysmom
see my pup-kid "Mookey" ( new photos added often )
http://community.webshots.com/album/4660261YyojrMytCo
Gwen Watson
Tina wrote:
> I cant imagine paying3000.00.for a GSD.
>
> Just my opinions :o)
Well I can, *IF* it already has earned at least ScHII title,
which would make the dog nearing on 2 and not a puppy.
That would be THE only way I would plunk that kind
of change down on a dog. Similar to a field lab
that has already been heavily trained to do hunting.
For a 8 week old puppy, no no, but never.
Gwen
HilandVeil
adherence to some arcane breeding standard set forth by the AKC.::::::::
The "arcane breeding standard" is not set forth by AKC, it is set forth by the
parent club, the GSD Club of America (or whatever the breed club is, I am not
sure). You may want to research some and discover why that breeding standard is
the way it is and why ethical breeders try to adhere to it.
:::::: We are looking for loyalty, companionship, instinctive protective
habits, and above all temperment.:::::::
I think you may have missed the point of all the replies so far. Basically
they said you can get all of that PLUS a puppy from health tested, temperment
tested and titled parents for a heck of a lot less than $3,000. Just because a
puppy has a jacked up price does not mean you will get a great puppy.
I would suggest going to the GSD parent club and looking at breeders listed
there. *Those* breeders are who you want a puppy from and I bet the kennel you
mentioned is not there. You can get a beautifully well bred dog from proven
adults for a fraction of the cost, usually with all kinds of guarentees.
In my breed, there is a HUGE kennel that sells pups for massive amounts of
money. They have a contract too but ya know...they are a glorified puppymill
who cares nothing for the massive, oversized, unhealthy and badly bred dogs
they produce. But...to someone who does not know, they look like the place to
get a Rottweiler (or Dobe or Fila).
Another alternative is a rescue group, they get lovely puppies and dogs in that
are just waiting for a home.
::::::We want a dog that doesn't have
to be watched all the time to ensure it doesn't nip the neighbors kid when
my son has a friend over.::::::
And you think paying $3,000 for a puppy will ensure this? If you are concerned
about any potential GSD be a nipper, perhaps this is not the breed for you.
TO...@dog-play.com
> I think you all may be missing my point. We don't place any monetary value
> in titles, championships, or adherence to some arcane breeding standard set
> forth by the AKC. We are looking for loyalty, companionship, instinctive
> protective habits, and above all temperment. We want a dog that doesn't have
> to be watched all the time to ensure it doesn't nip the neighbors kid when
> my son has a friend over.
I didn't miss your point at all. If all you want is a nice family dog
you sure as heck don't need to spend $3,000 to get one. It doesn't take
$3,000 to purchase a puppy that will have a good stable temperament. All
it takes is finding a breeder who is truly knowledgable AND cares about
the dogs. You will find the price will be more reasonable, but you
won't get the advertising hype this breeder puts out.
I don't really care too much about "some arcane breeding standard set
forth by the AKC" I care about healthy dogs. I care that breeders
educate themselves to create healthier dogs. This breeder is churning
out puppies with no evidence at all that they have any up to date
information on breeding healthy dogs.
I don't view this breeder as one who has the best interests of dogs in
mind. If you don't mind dealing with a breeder who doesn't care about the
future of their puppies go right ahead. German Shepherds are dying by
the hundreds in shelters. Breeders who don't care enough to take steps
to reduce those numbers I find contemptible. You asked for opinions.
You got them. Take a look at my breeder's ethics page.
http://www.dog-play.com/ethics.html Tell me exactly which of my standards
you disagree with, and why. This breeder doesn't measure up as a breeder
who is interested in the welfare of dogs. That's my bottom
line.
Diane Blackman
http://www.dog-play.com/ http://www.dog-play.com/TOTE.html
"The idea that we can enhance or change various aspects of our
relationships with our dogs through our awareness and use of body lanugage
and emotion makes owning a dog a tremendously intriguing experience. "
Gwen Watson
I sure enjoyed our meeting on Thursday, even though
it was wet and drizzling. It was great meeting
Tsuki. He is a great dog and lots of fun. What
a Social Butterfly.:)))) Running off playing with
the other dogs. Teehee.
I really appreciated you taking the time away from
your busy day to meet with me. Great fun.
What was that "Palm" programming or whatever
you were telling me about?
Well I just wanted to drop you a thank you!
Take care,
Gwen
Christy
"Charles M. Hollis" <cmho...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:JXgL5.1021$rl.8...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
> I think you all may be missing my point. We don't place any monetary value
> in titles, championships, or adherence to some arcane breeding standard
set
> forth by the AKC. We are looking for loyalty, companionship, instinctive
> protective habits, and above all temperment. We want a dog that doesn't
have
> to be watched all the time to ensure it doesn't nip the neighbors kid when
> my son has a friend over.
>
OK. Then, you should spend $3K on a dog bred by people who also don't place
any value in titles, championships, or adherence to breeding standard. That
makes perfect sense. After all, who should know more about breeding GSD than
people who don't work or show their dogs, or breed to the standard set by
the breed club!?! Certainly, all those GSD breeders with Schutzhund titles,
or conformation titles, or working titles, who do hip and elbow OFA, CERF
eyes, test cardio and thyroid, give guarantees that actually mean something,
and are not overly concerned with making huge profits are certainly not
going to produce a nice family pet.
Christy
hsamu...@hotmail.com
"Charles M. Hollis" <cmho...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> I think you all may be missing my point. We don't place any monetary
value
> in titles, championships, or adherence to some arcane breeding
standard set
> forth by the AKC. We are looking for loyalty, companionship,
instinctive
> protective habits, and above all temperment. We want a dog that
doesn't have
> to be watched all the time to ensure it doesn't nip the neighbors kid
when
> my son has a friend over.
Wooo wheee you are a hot mark aren't you? You are just dying to cough
up big dough for a dog that the breeder says is great. Big frigging
deal. What? You expect the breeder to tell you the dogs are mediocre?
of COURSE the breeder talks up their dogs. Does anyone who actually
knows dogs think they are great? Cripes they fed you a big line of BS
and you gulped it down steaming. Any breeder with any integrity at all
is going to breed for sound temperament. Yup, they got you swallowing,
cause you ain't listening.
Yours, for the dogs
Hannah
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Manadero
>I think you all may be missing my point.
O.K. Let's discuss your priorities.
>We don't place any monetary value
>in titles, championships, or adherence to some arcane breeding standard set
>forth by the AKC.
AKC doesn't set the standards, the parent club for the breed does. Regardless,
let's take a moment and, forgetting what titles mean to *you*, let's talk about
what they mean to your pup. What they mean is that the parents of your pup
adhere to the standard, meaning that they look, work and behave as GSDs should.
The breeder you are considering purchasing a pup from apparently makes no
effort to have their dogs independently evaluated, nor evaluated against the
others of their breed. This means that the only person evaluating the dogs they
breed are the people to whom you write the check and that the dogs are more
likely to NOT be correct in type, attitude and temperament. And when they
*don't* turn out as they should, you are LESS likely to get breeder support.
After all, the check is cleared and the dog is now your problem.
Bottom line is, you can buy a nice pet puppy from titled, proven, health tested
(OFA, CERF, Thyroid and Cardio) and temperament tested (not to mention fully
guaranteed) for a reasonable sum ($500 - $1,000)
OR
You can buy a $3,000 puppy from someone whose only activity in dogs is pumping
out puppies from questionable quality parents with minimal health
testing/guarantees because "they say" that their dogs are great.
>We are looking for loyalty, companionship, instinctive
>protective habits, and above all temperment.
Great! You have just described a well bred GSD. Now, are you going to buy a
reasonably priced puppy from someone who can *prove* that the parents have
these attributes, or foolishly spend way too much buying a puppy from a breeder
that doesn't bother to have his dogs evaluated?
>We want a dog that doesn't have
>to be watched all the time to ensure it doesn't nip the neighbors kid when
>my son has a friend over.
Of course, temperament has much to do with breeding, but just as much of the
end result is the ability of their owner/handler. Don't think that a high
price tag will "buy out" your responsibility towards the puppy and your family.
If you choose to go ahead with your $3,000 purchase, be sure to let us know.
I've got a bridge for ya.........
Robin
Gwen Watson
Manadero wrote:
> I've got a bridge for ya.........
>
> Robin
>
ROFL!!!
Gwen
who thinks these people believe dogs
are like cars, the higher the price tag, ie Porsche, the better
the dog.<WEG>
Charles M. Hollis
Since you seem to be one of many "experts" posting to this thread, maybe you
can provide me some of your background to base your opinions on, and maybe a
referral to a breeder that meets your expectations.
Thanks,
Mike
"Manadero" <mana...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20001030154934...@ng-fm1.aol.com...
Rocky
<rtmL5.2113$Pw6.1...@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net>:
>Since you seem to be one of many "experts" posting to this
>thread, maybe you can provide me some of your background to
>base your opinions on, and maybe a referral to a breeder that
>meets your expectations.
Hi Charles,
Head on over to:
http://www.deja.com/home_ps.shtml
Fill in "rec.pets.dogs.breeds" in the "Forum" box and
"mana...@aol.com" in the "Author" box.
Of course, anyone can say whatever they want on usenet but,
after reading this group for over 2 years, IMO Robin knows what
she's talkin' 'bout, as do many of the others (Lynn, Diane,
Gwen) who have posted to this thread. Their opinions are worth
listening to.
--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
Cindy Tittle Moore
>
>Since you seem to be one of many "experts" posting to this thread, maybe you
>can provide me some of your background to base your opinions on, and maybe a
>referral to a breeder that meets your expectations.
You can browse through this information, which many people on this forum
contributed towards when I was assembling it:
Note in particular
http://www.k9web.com/dog-faqs/getting-a-dog.html
There are many other very good online documentaries and informative
essays out there, too.
(Rather than reinventing the wheel or continually reposting, I prefer to
send pointers to the info. You are not the first, nor will you be the last,
to ask these same questions.)
Cheers,
--Cindy
Darlene Hernandez
Charles M. Hollis <cmho...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:JXgL5.1021$rl.8...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
> I think you all may be missing my point. We don't place any monetary value
> in titles, championships, or adherence to some arcane breeding standard
set
> forth by the AKC. We are looking for loyalty, companionship, instinctive
> protective habits, and above all temperment. We want a dog that doesn't
have
> to be watched all the time to ensure it doesn't nip the neighbors kid when
> my son has a friend over.
Charles,
Feel free to purchase your GSD from whoever you want -- you can also pay
whatever amount of $$ you choose. One thing to keep in mind is that the GSD
is the 3rd most popular AKC registered breed. The more popular a breed
becomes, the greater the quantity of people breeding, the greater the chance
of getting a dog with health or temperment issues.
I personally am very suspicious of any breeder who breeds 4-5 litters of
puppies/year. I am also suspicious of people who are selling their retired
"breeding" dogs at 6 years of age. I do know people that place retired show
dogs/brood bitches/stud dogs - but these animals are spayed/nuetered and
placed in loving homes to be someone's pampered pet. They usually aren't
passed down the road for $$.
GSD's have numerous other testable health problems besides HD. These aren't
listed on their site. Very skimpy puppy "guarantee". Here is a sample
puppy warranty for a Belgian Tervuren that is a little more extensive:
Seller Guarantees:
*At time of purchase, dog has no appearance of illness or hereditary defects
and has received all vaccinations and wormings. At the buyer's expense, dog
is to be examined by a licensed veterinarian within 72 hours of date of
purchase. If the dog is found to be ill, the dog may be returned and the
purchase price will be refunded.
*All dogs shall be free from hip dysplasia.
*All dogs eyes shall be free from hereditary eye diseases. This dog's eyes
have been examined by a veterinary ophthalmologist and found to be clear of
any hereditary juvenile eye disease. We recommend that you have your dogs
eyes examined annually.
*All dogs shall be free from idiopathic epilepsy.
*All show quality dogs shall have a correct bite according to the breed
standard.
*All show quality males shall be free from monorchidism and cryptorchidism.
*Buyers will be notified of any health issues that arise with parents,
grandparents or siblings.
Buyer Agrees to:
*Provide regular care from a licensed veterinarian, including a generally
accepted schedule of vaccinations, heartworm medication and preventative
wormings.
*Keep the dog primarily as a house dog. When it is necessary to have the
dog outside unattended, dog shall be in a fenced yard with shade and shelter
from the elements. Fresh water shall be available at all times.
*Provide daily interaction and companionship to the dog. This includes, but
is not limited to: grooming, exercise, obedience, herding activities and
agility.
*Notify the Seller immediately if dog is lost, stolen, spayed or neutered.
*Provide regular updates to the Seller on growth, health, learning
abilities, and everyday activities.
*Contact the Seller immediately if any personality changes, training issues
or health problems occur. The Seller will work with you to develop a
corrective action plan.
*Submit hip and elbow radiographs to the Orthopedic Foundation for Animals
(or Penn Hip) when dog is two years old and provide results to Seller.
*Join the American Belgian Tervuren Club for a minimum of one year.
*Receive written approval from the Seller prior to breeding dog. Dogs may
not be bred until an OFA (PennHip) certification number has been received
for hips and elbows and a current CERF exam performed. It is recommended
that dogs not be bred before they are three years old.
*Return the dog to the Seller if for any reason the Buyer cannot keep the
dog. The ownership of the dog is nontransferable, unless prior written
consent has been given by the Seller.
Replacement Policy:
*Pet and Show quality dogs will be replaced if they develop hip dysplasia,
hereditary eye disease, or idiopathic epilepsy. Show quality dogs will be
replaced for height disqualification, disqualifying bite, monorchidism or
cryptorchidism. No dog will be replaced until written evidence from a
licensed veterinarian has been received showing the dog has been altered or
euthanized. Euthanasia is only acceptable if the dog has progressive
retinal atrophy or severe hip dysplasia. Euthanasia may not be performed
until written consent has been received from the Seller. Mild hip dysplasia
and idiopathic epilepsy can usually be controlled through surgery or
medication.
*Buyer and Seller will agree whether the Buyer will keep the dog or return
dog to the breeder.
*If the Buyer keeps the dog, either one-half of the purchase price will be
refunded or a dog of equal or higher quality will be offered at Seller's
discretion.
*If the Buyer returns the dog, the entire purchase price will be refunded or
a dog of equal or higher quality will be offered at the Seller's discretion.
*A copy of the official OFA/PennHip evaluation is required for replacement
of a dysplastic dog.
*A copy of the official eye examination, performed by a board certified
veterinary ophthalmologist, is required for replacement of a dog with
hereditary eye defects.
*Dogs sold as pet quality will be sold on a limited registration and must be
spayed or nuetered by one year of age.
IF THIS DOG, A SIBLING, OR PARENT DEVELOPS IDIOPATHIC EPILEPSY OR PRA, DOG
MAY NOT BE BRED.
ANY BREACH OF THIS AGREEMENT BY THE BUYER WILL CAUSE THE DOG TO BE RETURNED
TO THE SELLER, AT THE BUYER'S EXPENSE, WITH NO REFUND OF ANY KIND.
***********************************************************************
Darlene Hernandez
Landmark Tervuren
Manadero
>Since you seem to be one of many "experts" posting to this thread, maybe you
>can provide me some of your background to base your opinions on....
Funny that you would come here asking for opinions and then want to debate our
knowledge on the subject. Instead of providing you with my credentials, I
would suggest that you challenge the information given to you by a misbreeder
that has a LOT to gain from your ignorance. Not someone who has given you
sound reasons not to purchase a $3,000 pet out of untitled, untested, unproven
parents and bred by someone whose only involvement in dogs appears to be the
vast number of puppies they pump out.
The truth is, this has very little to do with "expertise" (except that we can
easily read between the lines of their slick sales pitch) and a LOT to do with
basic common sense. If you are willing to act the fool and write that check,
more power to you. You asked for information, it was given to you. I trust
that you are intelligent enough to do some basic research and find out the
truth. If you have more money than sense, I suspect you've already made up
your mind.
Robin
Who strongly suspects that Mr. Hollis is affiliated with Vom Waldenhaus
Marla Belzowski
"Charles M. Hollis" <cmho...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> Robin,
>
> Since you seem to be one of many "experts" posting to this thread,
maybe you
> can provide me some of your background to base your opinions on, and
maybe a
> referral to a breeder that meets your expectations.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Mike
>
Mike,
Hey, I just wasn't to add a bit to our discussion here as a
testimonaial of what is being said by the "experts" in this thread.
I do have a GSD bitch that is a show dog among other things. Her first
and foremost duty is to be my "scare dog" (early warning system) and my
companion. She was sired but the #2 conformation GSD(1994&1996) in the
country. Both of her parents are Champions, her mother has a CD
(obedience title) and both of her parents are ROM's (Registry of Merit
holders for pruducing champions and working dogs!). Both were OFA'd
and she came to me with guarentees she would OFA and not have any other
health problem (eyes, heart, VWD, elbow problems, spine
problems, ....etc, etc!)
She passed her TC(temperment Certificate) test the first time through
and has proven out on OFA's (H&E) and all her other health tests, plus
she's done some winning in the show ring for me.
So, about now your wondering how much I paid for her right? Guess what
I got her for a meager $500 on a co-ownership. I could have gotten her
outright for $1000. Now, I only got her at this price because I knew
her breeder and they knew I would show her and breed her responsibly.
If she had been a pet she would have gone to a pet home for just $750
on a spay/neuter contract. Her breeder does place several pups in her
litters as pets when they just a tiny little flaw for the show ring.
Of course, I knew her breeder for 5 years before I decided to get her
or I probably wouldn't have her being a show quality/breeding
possiblity dog.
What you are looking at in the kennel you found is a puppy mill. They
are just breeding puppy after puppy for the bucks and claiming claims
that are for the most part, untested and unproven.
One of the best places to get refurrals for a good GSD is a rescue
group or if you insist on getting one from a responsible quality
breeder, then contact the GSD Club of America members here:
http://www.userhome.com/showgsd/
Best of luck and don't be so willing to toss your money away on
a "promise", ask to see some proof first!
_____________________
Marla Belzowski
& the LegendHold Collie Clan
To "mis-quote" my favortie Star Trek Character, "Dammit Jim, I'm an
Engineer, not an English Teacher."
Bethgsd
>in titles, championships, or adherence to some arcane breeding standard set
>forth by the AKC. We are looking for loyalty, companionship, instinctive
>protective habits, and above all temperment.
The best way to find what you're looking for is to find a breeder that can
prove that that is what they are breeding for and titles, especially
performance titles, are a good way to prove that.
A responsible breeder is going to chose a puppy that will fit your needs and is
probably going to charge a heck of a lot less than 3,000. Also, the good GSD
breeders that I know and would buy from, know their bloodlines and temperment
test
their puppies and performance and health test their breeding stock.
My youngest shepherd comes from a breeder that breeds every 3 years or so, for
herself. She could predict which puppy would fit me best and knows her lines
well enough to be able to offer me valid and helpful training advice via email.
I doubt that anyone with 30 pups on the ground is going to know those puppies
that well.
JMHO
Beth
Charles M. Hollis
I appreciate your candid repsonse. You raise several good points, but you
all seem to enjoy bashing someone who was just for info from someone who had
purchased one of these GSD's (if you read my original post), but instead
everyone seems to enjoy bashing me and this kennel. As for any involvement
with them, I have corresponded with Susan Forrest via e-mail over the last
two days, and that is the extent of my involvement. They are in MO, and we
are in CT. I did ask her for the name of a local owner of one of their GSD's
so that we could meet the dog and discuss their experience with the
dog/kennel. Believe me, we are not going into this blindly. Everyone seems
to think that $3K is way too much for one of these dogs, but isn't the
ultimate judge of somethings worth the buyer? After all, I may think that a
painting that you may value highly is a piece of junk not worth the price of
the canvas. Isn't that basically the same issue here?
I did notice that you failed to recommend a breeder to me.
Mike
"Manadero" <mana...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20001030190847...@ng-cr1.aol.com...
Rocky
>I did notice that you failed to recommend a breeder to me.
It looks like you've got your mind made up. Maybe you should
relax for a week and then reread all of the posts in this thread
objectively.
Christy
"Charles M. Hollis" <cmho...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:GjpL5.2665$Pw6.1...@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
> Robin,
>
> I appreciate your candid repsonse. You raise several good points, but you
> all seem to enjoy bashing someone who was just for info from someone who
had
> purchased one of these GSD's (if you read my original post), but instead
> everyone seems to enjoy bashing me and this kennel. As for any involvement
> with them, I have corresponded with Susan Forrest via e-mail over the last
> two days, and that is the extent of my involvement. They are in MO, and we
> are in CT. I did ask her for the name of a local owner of one of their
GSD's
> so that we could meet the dog and discuss their experience with the
> dog/kennel. Believe me, we are not going into this blindly. Everyone seems
> to think that $3K is way too much for one of these dogs, but isn't the
> ultimate judge of somethings worth the buyer? After all, I may think that
a
> painting that you may value highly is a piece of junk not worth the price
of
> the canvas. Isn't that basically the same issue here?
Can you tell us what reasons she gave for charging 3-6 times as much as the
price of a well bred, health tested pet quality dog from a responsible
breeder? There has to be some reason that you think the dog is worth the
money that hasn't been shared here, otherwise, it doesn't really make sense
why you seem to want to be taken for a ride.
Christy
Manadero
>I appreciate your candid repsonse.
No problem. You did, after all, come here looking for opinions and discussion
concerning this particular breeder.
>You raise several good points, but you
>all seem to enjoy bashing someone who was just for info from someone who had
>purchased one of these GSD's (if you read my orginal post), but instead
everyone seems to enjoy bashing me and this kennel.
No one "bashed" you, they offered the information you requested. However, as
is often the case, you seem to be looking for someone to give you the answer
that you have decided is appropriate. Your defense of a misbreeder's program
and your deliberate argument with those whom you asked for advice (and you have
been given sound advice) raises questions about your judgement and motives in
the matter. No reason to snidely challenge our expertise on the matter, go
write the check already.
As for "bashing" the kennel, these people are churning out large numbers of
puppies out of untitled, untested, unproven parents. Sold to gullible people (I
won't mention any names) who seem to think that these puppies must somehow be
*better* than those of someone who competes, tests, breeds carefully and fully
guarantees their puppies because the price is 4 - 6 times what a nice pet is
worth and closer to 15 times what the puppies in question are worth? This is
not rocket science, it's common sense, if you have any.
>Believe me, we are not going into this blindly.
No?
>Everyone seems
>to think that $3K is way too much for one of these dogs, but isn't the
>ultimate judge of somethings worth the buyer?
You are right of course. So why ask for opinions? Why ask for information?
If you value a so-so quality pet pup with minimal guarantees worth $200 enough
to pay $3,000 for it, I think you should do it. After all, given that option,
only a fool would opt to pay $500 for a carefully bred puppy with full
guarantees.
>After all, I may think that a
>painting that you may value highly is a piece of junk not worth the price of
>the canvas. Isn't that basically the same issue here?
Have you not signed that check yet? I say to hell with it, if you're that
stupid, who am I to argue with you?
BTW, I reveiwed the pictures and testimonies of the buyers. Funny, they all
seem to be younger than a year old. Wonder why that is.................
>I did notice that you failed to recommend a breeder to me.
Well Mike, this is the first post in which you have mentioned where you are. I
will be happy to get some referrals for you. But I have to warn you, I'll be
striking a deal, I'll tell them you are willing to pay $3,000 for a pet and
they'll have to agree to donate half of the price to rescue :)
Something to remember Mike. Sometimes bigger is better, but this isn't one of
those times.........
Robin
Who still has a bridge available............
Lynn Kosmakos
"Charles M. Hollis" wrote:
>
> We are looking for loyalty, companionship, instinctive
> protective habits, and above all temperment. We want a dog that doesn't have
> to be watched all the time to ensure it doesn't nip the neighbors kid when my son has a friend over.
All very valuable things, valuable beyond money. But you asked for
opinions about a specific kennel. My opinion is that I wouldn't be
comfortable dealing with people who charge far more than market value
while making claims that are unsubstantiated.
FWIW, like many other breed rescues, we have a number of GSDs in
foster homes that are proven to meet all of your criteria. The
adoption fee is $150. http://www.sfgsrescue.org
Lynn K.
Lynn Kosmakos
HilandVeil wrote:
>
> The "arcane breeding standard" is not set forth by AKC, it is set forth by the
> parent club, the GSD Club of America
Actually, it's a bit more complicated for the kennel in question.
Their dogs are a mix of German high lines and some working lines,
but are registered with the AKC, but not the SV. It really doesn't
make much sense at all in any sector of the GSD world.
Lynn K.
Lynn Kosmakos
"Charles M. Hollis" wrote:
you
> all seem to enjoy bashing someone who was just for info from someone who had
> purchased one of these GSD's (if you read my original post), but instead
> everyone seems to enjoy bashing me and this kennel.
I haven't seen anyone bashing you, and the comments I've read about
the kennel have mostly been very objective. Please understand that
most of us care a good deal about well bred dogs, and we can't support
anyone who seems to be breeding without doing all of the things we
would expect from the best breeders of the breed. That's particularly
true of people, like me, whose breed is GSDs. The GSD market is a
very complex one and not one that is easily understood. The kennel
you are considering seems to me to be borderline.
Your response to the opinions you asked for, and received, seems to
be to ask for someone to simply do your research for you. We can't
because we don't really know what you're looking for in a GSD. You
clearly want a stable GSD temperament, but that isn't enough to tell
us how active your family is, what you mean by protectiveness, whether
you actively enjoy training a dog, etc.. You're going to have to
make those decisions yourself, but here are some links to well-known
and respected breeders a lot closer to you than Missouri :-)
Totana Piper Hill - http://www.totana-piperhill.com/
Kirchenwald - http://www.KIRCHENWALD.com/
Montealoya GSDs - http://www.montealoya.com/
vom Shafferthaus - http://realgsd.net/breeders/shafferthaus/index.htm
Alpenhaus - http://www.iaw.on.ca/~alpenhof
http://www.vomhimmelhoch.com
http://hometown.aol.com/rea304/welcome_to_lighthouse_shepherds.htm
http://www.hereintown.net/~shepherd/Guardianhaus/
http://members.aol.com/sarslader/konigsdorf.html
von Ruhm - http://geocities.com/petsburgh/yard/5670/
You also might want to contact the local GSD club -
German Shepherd Dog Club of Eastern CT, Breeder Referral - Joan Tuthill
tut...@concentric.net
I don't often agree with Martin Wahl, but his thoughts on choosing
a GSD breeder should certainly be part of your research -
http://www.realgsd.net/GSDinfo/Puppy/gsdbuyer.htm
Lynn K.
weim2000
reputable breeder and have accumulated lots of info over the past few weeks.
I have seen prices range from $1000-5000, depending on the breeder and the
pedigree of the pups. I have found that superior quality working pups from
German lines, with appropriate health and temperament guarantees can be
found more in the $1500 range.
I am looking for a pup for competitive working (Schutzhund) ability, and
feel confident I will find what I am looking for. I am in no hurry and plan
on doing lots of research before I buy a puppy from anyone.
--
Ruth Nichols rnic...@kih.net
"Lynn Kosmakos" <lkos...@home.com> wrote in message
news:39FE65EF...@home.com...
Gwen Watson
Rocky wrote:
> cmho...@earthlink.net (Charles M. Hollis) wrote in
> <GjpL5.2665$Pw6.1...@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net>:
>
> >I did notice that you failed to recommend a breeder to me.
What I would recommend and what you may want are 2 different
things. GSD's have evolved into several different types of
dogs. Pretty dogs AKC beauty pagent types that couldn't work
if their lives depended on it. Working lines out of Germany
or Europe, which is THE only type of GSD I would consider.
Here are a few URL's for you to chew on.
This one is from a breeder that posts here on occassion.
She has very nice dogs, great temperments, great looking.
Extremely ethical and definately has an excellent contract
and health guarantees. No pups right now.
http://www.eskimo.com/~snoline/index.html
Then this site gives you an idea of what to look
for and what a GSD should be.
http://www.gsd-infoline.com/index-e.htm
Also Ed Frawley, Leerburg Kennels has tons
of info on his site. He is also closing in
on too many litters per year, but is getting
out of the breeding business and just selling
training videos and such. Lots of good
information about what a GSD should be,
in his opinion of course.
Gwen
Gwen Watson
weim2000 wrote:
> I
> I am looking for a pup for competitive working (Schutzhund) ability, and
> feel confident I will find what I am looking for. I am in no hurry and plan
> on doing lots of research before I buy a puppy from anyone.
>
> --
> Ruth Nichols rnic...@kih.net
Ruth
It looks as though you really know what you are looking for.
Here is a breeder that has some excellent dogs on the
line of what you are looking for in a GSD.
http://www.jantana.com/vierselhof/
Or here straight out of Belgium. Rinus
is an extremely nice person and breeder.
http://users.skynet.be/daelenberghutte/
Surely one of these persons can help you contact someone
locally or just get one from them. They do have excellent
dogs.
Good luck with your search
Gwen
Marla Belzowski
Gwen Watson <gw...@utig.ig.utexas.edu> wrote in message
news:39FEE09A...@utig.ig.utexas.edu...
>
>
> Rocky wrote:
>
> > cmho...@earthlink.net (Charles M. Hollis) wrote in
> > <GjpL5.2665$Pw6.1...@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net>:
> >
> > >I did notice that you failed to recommend a breeder to me.
>
> What I would recommend and what you may want are 2 different
> things. GSD's have evolved into several different types of
> dogs. Pretty dogs AKC beauty pagent types that couldn't work
> if their lives depended on it.
That's a lie GWEN and YOU KNOW IT!
What complete and total BS you spout.
>Working lines out of Germany
> or Europe, which is THE only type of GSD I would consider.
That's fine for you, but they are also the kind of GSD that most people
wanting a family pets CAN'T handle. And you know it!
When you stop bad mouthing the whole bred Gwen I might consider taking you
seriously, until then you come across to me as one of those Shutzhund people
I never want to be around. Thanks for confirming to me everytime you
discuss this topic that I DON'T want to be involved with Schuthund people.
Marla Belzowski
& the LegendHold Collie Clan (& the GSD that is just about perfect)
Gwen Watson
Marla Belzowski wrote:
> When you stop bad mouthing the whole bred Gwen I might consider taking you
> seriously, until then you come across to me as one of those Shutzhund people
> I never want to be around. Thanks for confirming to me everytime you
> discuss this topic that I DON'T want to be involved with Schuthund people.
>
> Marla Belzowski
> & the LegendHold Collie Clan (& the GSD that is just about perfect)
Marla,
I am sorry a got you so ruffled. This is my opinion. The last time
I checked I was entitled to that opinion. I do not think anything
I said was a lie. I am sorry you feel that way and so much
that way that you came across extremely, and very apparently
angry. I personally like Schutzhund people as you call them.
I have not bad mouthed the whole breed. I have bad
mouthed what the Americans have done to
the breed.
Please supply me with a list of American GSD's doing
PD work. At that point I will change my mind,
until then I stand by the feelings the Ed Frawley
of Leerburg Kennels has on this topic.
Again I am sorry this post provoked you so much
you felt the need to call me a liar and saying you
don't take me seriously. I would never do that
to you or others on this board.
Personally I feel
anyone going against Capt Max von Stephanitz's
wishes and dreams
for the GSD is not taking the GSD seriously
and that bothers me immensely.
Gwen
Gwen Watson
Marla Belzowski wrote:
> That's fine for you, but they are also the kind of GSD that most people
> wanting a family pets CAN'T handle. And you know it!
>
> Marla Belzowski
> & the LegendHold Collie Clan (& the GSD that is just about perfect)
Then they need to obtain a rescue GSD or a Lab, if they can not
handle WHAT Capt Max von Stephanitz intended when
he created the breed.
Personally I have high regards for what he intended
for this magnificent breed.
Gwen
Julie
Marla wrote:
> > That's fine for you, but they are also the kind of GSD that most people
> > wanting a family pets CAN'T handle. And you know it!
> >
Gwen Watson wrote :
> Then they need to obtain a rescue GSD or a Lab, if they can not
> handle WHAT Capt Max von Stephanitz intended when
> he created the breed.
Whoa, there sweets. Don't be pawning the Lab off as an easy family pet.
That's the reson that there are a lot of Labs in shelters and rescues, well
that and the idiots in the east coast of the US that think they should breed
labs with pits.
Labs are Not easy dogs to handle. Loveable, loyal and wanting to please?
Yes. Easy to handle? No.
Labs are hyper beasts that demand and need attention 25 hours a day (yes 25
hours, that's my point) . They are completely out of control if not trained
properly and need to have a "job". They are mouth crazy and will destroy
everything in mouth's reach. They are exhuberant and want to show their
love that they have a tendency to knock down little munchkins. They are
champion counter surfers, and covert operators when food is around. Just
ask about my duck that when MIA and rack of lamb that was KIA. Both times I
turned my back for 30 seconds, once to answer the phone and once to answer
the door. Admitably, both times were partially my fault and partially his,
but someone who thinks they want a Lab, because it would make a good
accessory to their BMW would blame the dog.
As a rule, any dog, regardless of breed is not a good pick for someone who
can't control dogs, isn't willing to go to school with them, and thinks that
they become the dogs they see on tv and in films because that's what dogs
do.
As for Max, well Max, isn't around now, is he? Do the tasks that he needed
the GSD to do, still exist today? Some do yes, but do all? Can you tell me
that a Newfie today, does what it was initially bred to do? What about the
Poodle? I don't see many Poodles out working in the water, but that is what
they were initially bred to do. Just because a breed was created for a
certain task, doesn't mean it has to be doing that task.
Now, let's go back to tasks. In any given litter, there will be a dog that
is the champion. He fits the standard, he is there, and not only that, he
wrote the standard. There will also be pet quality pups. They might have
some flaws, but they aren't imperfect dogs. And then there will be that pup
that just does what her ancestors did and does it well. I wouldn't want
Willie out with me in the field, it wouldn't be pretty, but I do like him as
a swimming buddy. I don't want the terrior across the street digging in the
shed for rats, she would probably catch it and drop it alive on my porch,
but that's what she was bred to do. There are GSD's that were meant to work
and there were those that were meant to just be a pal. Don't disregard the
pals as inferior, they aren't.
That said,
Julie
~remove the xyz from the .com to reply via email
Cindy Tittle Moore
Julie <julie_...@email.comxyz> wrote:
Whoa yourself, sweets...
>Labs are hyper beasts that demand and need attention 25 hours a day (yes 25
>hours, that's my point) . They are completely out of control if not trained
>properly and need to have a "job". They are mouth crazy and will destroy
>everything in mouth's reach.
This is more characteristic of 1) UNTRAINED labs, and 2) BADLY BRED
labs. Which was yours?
>They are exhuberant and want to show their
>love that they have a tendency to knock down little munchkins. They are
>champion counter surfers, and covert operators when food is around. Just
>ask about my duck that when MIA and rack of lamb that was KIA. Both times I
>turned my back for 30 seconds, once to answer the phone and once to answer
>the door.
OK, yes on the garbage gut part.
>but someone who thinks they want a Lab, because it would make a good
>accessory to their BMW would blame the dog.
And very true. Labs are prone to the "house, white picket fence, 1.5
kids, dog to complete picture" syndrome :-P
--Cindy
Lynn Kosmakos
Julie wrote:
> As for Max, well Max, isn't around now, is he? Do the tasks that he needed
> the GSD to do, still exist today?
Yes, those tasks all still exist, and he designed a sport specifically
to prove and retain the abilities. I have to admit that I think the
breed is blessed by such a well-documented legacy from the breed
founder.
The fact that most individuals of working breeds actually spend their
lives as companion animals who never work a day in their lives shouldn't
equate to breeding away from the working nature of the breed. People
who want the temperament of a Toy Spaniel in the body of a GSD, Dobe,
or Border Collie should really get a Toy Spaniel instead of expecting
GSD, Dobe, or BC breeders to fulfill their fantasies.
Lynn K.
Julie
I wrote:
> >Labs are hyper beasts that demand and need attention 25 hours a day (yes
25
> >hours, that's my point) . They are completely out of control if not
trained
> >properly and need to have a "job". They are mouth crazy and will destroy
> >everything in mouth's reach.
Cindy Tittle Moore wrote
> This is more characteristic of 1) UNTRAINED labs, and 2) BADLY BRED
> labs. Which was yours?
>
I call Willie my recsue Lab. I snatched him just before the yuppie couple
with the BMW got him from the pet store. I do NOT recommend purchasing a
dog from a pet store. I went in to get some toys and Willie needed help at
the time.
Willie and I are working together. Rose, and Peat were so easy because they
come from repuatable breeders and weren't quite as "happy" as Willie.
Social yes, but I could do a quick group class and they got it. Willie is
also smarter than the others. He sees things, and remembers things that the
others don't. Tonight for instance, Willie took his teddy bear with him
into the kennel (he has a hole he is working on, and I am sure he wanted
Teddy's opinion). 4 hours later he wanted to go outside. I let him out and
he promptly ran to the kennel to get Teddy and came right back downstairs
with me and took a nap. The others just look around and then pick up a
substitute, only to stumble across the toy they were looking for a few days
later. Willie is also the first dog I have had where *I* have had to be
trained as well. The others came so naturally that it was sort of a shock,
which is why we are doing several private sessions, more for me than for
him. I am also Willie's love interest, so I have to make certain that he
realizes that certain tasks are very important to me. He does a fabulous
sit stay and down stay, but he is also 100 plus pounds of pure muscle. He
inhibits his strength, but will get so excited, especially walks, that I
have to constantly remind myself that we have to do certain steps and do
them successfully in order to continue.
In most cases, families who add a Lab, don't realize that they have to train
themselves as well as their dogs. I realize that, and still have to work
very hard. Most dog owners are casual dog owners. I use that term to
describe people who want a pet, well think they want a dog as a pet, and
don't realize the work involved. I know that there is a lot of work amd it
is still hard. Also, he is only 11 mos old, well will be on November 4th.
He is a "Teen-ager" and not even close to becoming an "adult". I see a
marked difference between his behavior 2 months ago and now. He handles
things differently, tests boundaries constantly, and has decided he is deaf.
I know he's not, he know's I know he's not, but it's a control issue and we
are working on it.
My point of the previous post is that no breed should be said to be a pet
for people who just want a dog. It doesn't work that way. If it did, we
wouldn't need rescue groups or shelters.
Julie
--
~If you want to email me, remove the xyz from the .com
Julie
Lynn Kosmakos wrote
> The fact that most individuals of working breeds actually spend their
> lives as companion animals who never work a day in their lives shouldn't
> equate to breeding away from the working nature of the breed. People
> who want the temperament of a Toy Spaniel in the body of a GSD, Dobe,
> or Border Collie should really get a Toy Spaniel instead of expecting
> GSD, Dobe, or BC breeders to fulfill their fantasies.
>
Lynn,
I totally agree. 100%. However, the nature of breeding is for 3 things.
Showing, working and pets. Shows have to exist, if they didn't I think
there would be more dogs with more genetic health problems than we would
know what to do with. WIthout working we wouldn't have the breeds we have
today. Without companions we probably wouldn't have showing or working.
What I was trying to say, and didn't say very well, was that just because a
breed was developed to do certain tasks doesn't mean it has to do those
tasks. As I said above there are pups in litters that just won't cut it for
working. What is to become of them if not to be companions?
Julie
--
~If you want to email me, remove the xyz from the .com
Gwen Watson
Marla Belzowski wrote:
> > What I would recommend and what you may want are 2 different
> > things. GSD's have evolved into several different types of
> > dogs. Pretty dogs AKC beauty pagent types that couldn't work
> > if their lives depended on it.
>
> That's a lie GWEN and YOU KNOW IT!
> What complete and total BS you spout.
What part of this is exactly a LIE?????
I would like to know????? The part about them evolving
into 2 separate breeds more or less of the part that
the American lines are more concerned with looks that
the ability to work?
Please elaborate on the word LIE, since
it is a VERY, VERY strong word to use
in this incident.
> Marla Belzowski
> & the LegendHold Collie Clan (& the GSD that is just about perfect)
Gwen
Gwen Watson
Lynn Kosmakos wrote:
Thank you Lynn for putting it in a way that I couldn't without
getting extremely emotional about the subject.
As I said in my post to Julie, I am extremely passionate
about this topic. So passionate it is as though
Capt Max was my ancestor. It is not something
I take lightly when someone wishes on their
dying bed. It just isn't.
Gwen
Gwen Watson
Julie wrote:
> As a rule, any dog, regardless of breed is not a good pick for someone who
> can't control dogs, isn't willing to go to school with them, and thinks that
> they become the dogs they see on tv and in films because that's what dogs
> do.
I agree, which is yet another one of my points. I really don't think people
who can not control dogs should have them period. A GSD no matter
what breeding is NO couch potatoe.
>
>
> As for Max, well Max, isn't around now, is he?
And this means exactly what. The people breeding
GSD's should NOT honor a dying mans wish? BS!
I disagree with that totally and find it so arrogantly
dishonorable that it is far beyond my rhelms of thought.
If people want something other than what the late
Capt Stephanitz dreamed then call the breed
something else. Like the Shiloh Shepherd has
done. Call it American Shepherd Dog.
> Do the tasks that he needed
> the GSD to do, still exist today?
Yes definately and that is what the breed was
created for. And yes these tasks still apply today.
> Some do yes, but do all? Can you tell me
> that a Newfie today, does what it was initially bred to do?
Did the NEWFIE's founder on his dying bed ask hisvery best friend to keep his
dog a working breed
and make sure the dog for NO reason deviate
from that intent? I don't think so.
But as for GSD's this is EXACTLY what Capt von Stephanitz
did. While some do not understand my passion about this
I suppose I can understand, but I am every bit as passionate
about this as if the late GREAT Capt was my very own
Grandfather or ancestor. This is not something I will
ever change my mind about and on my dying bed
I will mutter his words.
> What about the
> Poodle? I don't see many Poodles out working in the water, but that is what
> they were initially bred to do. Just because a breed was created for a
> certain task, doesn't mean it has to be doing that task.
I was not discussing poodles, newfies. As far as I know
Capt "S" was probably the only person who started a
breed that felt so VERY passionate about that breed
that these were his dying WISHES. To me it is dishonorable
and the breed that he intended is PERFECT, IMHO.
Now there is nothing wrong with branching off and calling
a breed another name, as had the Shiloh Shepherd, although
the dogs in theirselves are a total disaster, but ask any Shiloh
Shepherd lover, breeder that and they will adamently disagree.
>
>
> There are GSD's that were meant to work
> and there were those that were meant to just be a pal. Don't disregard the
> pals as inferior, they aren't.
And I adamently disagree with this. I feel very strongly about this.
Nothing that anyone can say will change my feelings about this.
It is a passion, much more than I can describe. Working GSD's
can be great pals. I own one, I would never own any other
kind of GSD. Was he a lot of work? Sure! Is he the most
intelligent animal I have ever been around, definately.
I can not imagine having another kind of GSD other
than a rescue, period end of my story.
> That said,
>
> Julie
>
> ~remove the xyz from the .com to reply via email
Yes, that said,
Gwen
Gwen Watson
Julie wrote:
>
>
> I totally agree. 100%. However, the nature of breeding is for 3 things.
> Showing, working and pets.
Wrong, this is completely wrong. Go to Germany and find out.Their way of showing
is to use Koer Class which definately
includes Schutzhund. NO GSD is bred over there without
passing Schutzhund titles. NONE. And pets well they
are culled by being neutered and spayed immediately.
Still they are working dogs, some high lines some total
working.
Again if the Americans like the GSD better as a
couch potatoe, which of course they are not
either, then they need to rename the dog
as American Shepherd Dog. Cause for the
most part they are nothing like what the Germans intended.
Gwen
Lisa Baird
> As for Max, well Max, isn't around now, is he? Do the tasks that he needed
> the GSD to do, still exist today? Some do yes, but do all? Can you tell me
> that a Newfie today, does what it was initially bred to do? What about the
> Poodle? I don't see many Poodles out working in the water, but that is what
> they were initially bred to do. Just because a breed was created for a
> certain task, doesn't mean it has to be doing that task.
This brings up one of my favorite "dog people" debates! (and please, lets just
keep it a friendly debate, not get in to flaming? <g>)
Topic: "Should we still CARE, in this day and age, about the original purpose of
a breed, and breed dogs capable of performing those tasks?"
My own opinion is a very definite, "YES"! I own a breed that is known to be
tolerable for many people who are allergy sufferers. However, this breed is one
that is, quite honestly, too much for many (I would go so far to say "most")
families who want "just a pet". They are a working breed, with drive, energy and
intelligence that must be properly channeled.
We have though, *some* breeders who either openly, or not, breed for "pets" for
families with allergies. When I say "pet", I don't mean they don't physically
conform to the standard, they do. The dogs still go in the breed ring and win. I
mean "pet" in that they are breeding more for an easy going dog.
I have a real problem with this. Are there any PWDs still working on fishing
boats and bringing in the catch? Well, not exactly, though there are a team of
them that sit in boats and wait to retrieve baseballs out of the bay for a
baseball team <g>. Many PWDs are very successful at obedience, agility,
tracking, etc. One outstanding individual is a Search and Rescue dog, who
apparently does amazing things and has made finds. Many are working assistance
dogs for their owners. Many more are happy, active members of their families.
They key is, "active". They are NOT couch potatoes, nor should they be.
Why does it still matter? Because if we aren't breeding to preserve these
breeds, what's the point? Those of us who breed and do conformation are always
talking "improve the breed". In all honesty, I think our challenge is to not
LOSE what those who originated these breeds and gave them a reason for being
did. There is much more to preserving a breed than breeding the physical "look",
IMO.
Now, back to the note that provoked this for me, yes, there will be puppies in
any litter that do not quite conform t the standard enough to be included in
breeding programs, and I think more breeders should take temperament in to
consideration when deciding this. And many of these will make great pets for
families that can't handle the "full blown" version. <g> But lets NOT breed for
this, please!
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Lisa Baird
Dublin, Ohio
Haleakala Portuguese Water Dogs
Buckeye Region Agility Group, Inc.
PAWZitive Beginnings Dog Training, LLC
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Gwen Watson
Lisa Baird wrote:
> This brings up one of my favorite "dog people" debates! (and please, lets just
> keep it a friendly debate, not get in to flaming? <g>)
>
> Topic: "Should we still CARE, in this day and age, about the original purpose of
> a breed, and breed dogs capable of performing those tasks?"
>
> My own opinion is a very definite, "YES"!
I definately vote 100% yes. I think when we start reengineering dogs
to fit todays lifestyle then we should be renaming the breed, that
we as humans have reengineered.
At any rate this debate started with me, who feels very passionate
about honoring a dying mans last WORDS before he passed
away. I do not take that lightly. Now when we bring other
breeds into this factor I have my doubts as to whether or
not the founders last words on their death bed to
their very best friend in the world was "keep my GSD's
a working breed that I have worked so hard all my life
to create".
With this in mind I find what the Americans have done
to the GSD's in America very dishonorable to this mans
dying wishes.
Now on another note I agree with everything else you said in
this message about keeping dogs as they were intended.
But I definately do not have the passion I have with GSD's.
Of course if I start researching other breeds and find that
their founders last breath of words as they passed on to
the next world was to keep the breed as they dreamed
it to be, I will be every bit as passionate about that breed.
It is the honorable thing to do. The respectful thing.
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Lisa Baird
> Dublin, Ohio
> Haleakala Portuguese Water Dogs
> Buckeye Region Agility Group, Inc.
> PAWZitive Beginnings Dog Training, LLC
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Gwen
Dianne Schoenberg
>Wrong, this is completely wrong. Go to Germany and find out.Their way of showing
>is to use Koer Class which definately
>includes Schutzhund. NO GSD is bred over there without
>passing Schutzhund titles. NONE.
Except for the ones that earn HGH titles :-). Still, point
taken.
Dianne
Gwen Watson
Dianne Schoenberg wrote:
Yes Diane this is true and I certainly wish that there will
be more HGH here in the US soon. There is one
club in US to my knowledge on the East Coast
around NJ that does HGH titling. It is run/hosted/overseen
by a German. I think his name is Ian?????
Cheers,
Gwen
Christy
>
>
> Marla Belzowski wrote:
>
> > > What I would recommend and what you may want are 2 different
> > > things. GSD's have evolved into several different types of
> > > dogs. Pretty dogs AKC beauty pagent types that couldn't work
> > > if their lives depended on it.
> >
> > That's a lie GWEN and YOU KNOW IT!
> > What complete and total BS you spout.
>
> What part of this is exactly a LIE?????
>
> I would like to know????? The part about them evolving
> into 2 separate breeds more or less of the part that
> the American lines are more concerned with looks that
> the ability to work?
Just curious - do the dogs from German lines work sheep? Do the dogs from
American lines work sheep? I mean, these are herding dogs, first and
foremost, aren't they? I always see such an emphasis on GSD as working dogs,
doing schutzhund, personal protection, police work etc. But were they not
originated to work in the fields? Is anyone breeding GSD for herding, or is
all that talk about breeding true to the breed's origins skimming over that
part?
Christy
Lynn Kosmakos
Lisa Baird wrote:
> Why does it still matter? Because if we aren't breeding to preserve these
> breeds, what's the point? Those of us who breed and do conformation are always
> talking "improve the breed". In all honesty, I think our challenge is to not
> LOSE what those who originated these breeds and gave them a reason for being
> did. There is much more to preserving a breed than breeding the physical "look", IMO.
Well said, Lisa. Some of the most fascinating discussions I've ever
had with breeders have been about planning breedings based on
temperaments that "click". I wish that more breeders considered that
as important as conformation considerations.
We all know the old saying "horses for courses". Maybe in this day
and age "horses capable of courses" is more appropriate.
Lynn K.
LiLtkdGrL
Lisa wrote:
>Are there any PWDs still working on fishing
>boats and bringing in the catch?
I thought I read that they still work the fishing boats in Portugal...or were
you referring to the US only? Or was I reading something way outdated? <g>
**remove shoes to reply**
"Well maggots bother me, but bodily fluids aren't that big a deal" courtesy of
Robin D. :)
Salty Tang
Gwen Watson <gw...@utig.ig.utexas.edu> wrote:
> Working GSD's
> can be great pals. I own one, I would never own any other
> kind of GSD.
Hi Gwen,
I missed it if you posted earlier, but what type of work does your GSD
do? Or did you just mean he was from working lines? If so do dogs
bred to work do well in pet homes?
Thanks!
Salty
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Gwen Watson
Christy wrote:
>
>
> Just curious - do the dogs from German lines work sheep? Do the dogs from
> American lines work sheep? I mean, these are herding dogs, first and
> foremost, aren't they? I always see such an emphasis on GSD as working dogs,
> doing schutzhund, personal protection, police work etc. But were they not
> originated to work in the fields? Is anyone breeding GSD for herding, or is
> all that talk about breeding true to the breed's origins skimming over that
> part?
>
> Christy
Absolutely, it is called HGH title in Germany.
At any rate Capt Stephanitz started Schutzhund
to test temperment, endurance and courage.
He was really the founder of the breed.
Still to answer your question in Germany
absolutely they still do HGH.
Gwen
Lynn Kosmakos
Christy wrote:
> Just curious - do the dogs from German lines work sheep? Do the dogs from
> American lines work sheep? I mean, these are herding dogs, first and
> foremost, aren't they?
Yes, and No. GSDs from all sorts of lines herd. They are not well
suited for the kind of herding competitions we have in the US, but
they do compete. (None of us would call them really competitive against
breeds like BCs.) But the breed was not designed as primarily a
herding breed. It was designed as an all purpose breed for herding
and protection.
Lynn K.
Christy
>
But the breed was not designed as primarily a
> herding breed.
The name confused me - or is GSD short for German Schutzhund Dog?? <g>
Seriously though, I just wondered why all the emphasis on the importance of
non-herding work in the breed. Obviously, nobody can compete against the BC!
<g> But I'd think that people wanting to promote the importance of the
breed's origins would take the herding part into account and work on
breeding for that as well. I have a Sheltie, and there aren't many (any?)
breeders who put stock in, well, STOCK, when making breeding decisions.
Seems a shame to me.
Christy
Bethgsd
>be more HGH here in the US soon. There is one
>club in US to my knowledge on the East Coast
>around NJ that does HGH titling. It is run/hosted/overseen
>by a German. I think his name is Ian?????
It is Ulf. Can't remember his last name though. He was a shepherd in E.
Germany.
Beth
Bethgsd
>> and there were those that were meant to just be a pal. Don't disregard the
>> pals as inferior, they aren't.
>
>And I adamently disagree with this. I feel very strongly about this.
>Nothing that anyone can say will change my feelings about this.
Of course there are also the "pal" dogs that occur in almost every working
lines litter. Wouldn't it be better if the people that wanted that "pal" GSD
wait for that puppy instead of buying from someone that isn't doing anything to
uphold the purpose of the breed?
Beth
Rictus Sardonicus
"Charles M. Hollis" <cmho...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> My wife and I are considering the purchase of a GSD from Vom
Waldenhaus
> kennel in MO. Quite a substantial purchase price for a dog, but we
feel it
> is worth it for a quality companion. My question is, anyone out there
own
> one of these GSD's, or have any experience with Vom Waldenhaus.
>
>
--
Grin 'n Bare It !
BlueDogs
Gwen Watson <gw...@utig.ig.utexas.edu> wrote:
> Hi Ya Diane,
> I sure enjoyed our meeting on Thursday, even though
> it was wet and drizzling. It was great meeting
> Tsuki. He is a great dog and lots of fun. What
> a Social Butterfly.:)))) Running off playing with
> the other dogs. Teehee.
And I'm so bummed I had to miss our meeting on Thursday. :( Toddlers
always pick Christmas eve and other important dates to wake up running
a fever. :( Naturally daycare won't take them and of course you have
to get them to the doctor to get some antibiotics to start getting them
healthy again. He had an ear infection in BOTH ears BTW. Poor kid. :(
He is now however back to his old self, running amok and fever
free. :) We check back with the Doctor this friday to make sure it's
all cleared up. Ahhhh well. Maybe one day I'll make it to Texas!!!!!!
--
~Darlene~ with Renegade, Gypsy, and Rebel
Learn about Blue and Liver GSD's!
www.bluedogs.8m.com
Blue...@charter.net
Lisa Baird
Christy wrote:
> non-herding work in the breed. Obviously, nobody can compete against the BC!
> <g> But I'd think that people wanting to promote the importance of the
> breed's origins would take the herding part into account and work on
> breeding for that as well. I have a Sheltie, and there aren't many (any?)
> breeders who put stock in, well, STOCK, when making breeding decisions.
> Seems a shame to me.
Ahem! I happen to be related to a number of Shelties who can beat BCs in
herding. <g> Seriously, do you know Claudia Frank? One of her "Duce" sons (See
him working ducks at: http://pawzitivebeginnings.webprovider.com/index.htm)
recently finished his HS, at just two years of age. He went HIT with his first
leg, the day after he finished his PT.
Claudia's Shelties not only excel at herding, they are also working sheep dogs
on her farm. Maybe its just our area, but there are a number of wonderful
herding Shelties around here! Not just at the AKC trial, but AHBA and others. I
was scribing an event this summer, large flock ranch type course. Several
Shelties, most of whom did well. (Along with a WONDERFUL Cardigan Corgi!)
(BTW, our Fancy is expecting a litter out of Claudia's Duce!<g>)
--
Julie
Bethgsd <bet...@aol.comnojunk
I wrote this:
> >> There are GSD's that were meant to work
> >> and there were those that were meant to just be a pal. Don't disregard
the
> >> pals as inferior, they aren't.
I'm too lazy to go and see who wrote this. I think it was Gwen, but am not
positive:
> >And I adamently disagree with this. I feel very strongly about this.
> >Nothing that anyone can say will change my feelings about this.
Bethgsd <bet...@aol.comnojunk wrote this:
> Of course there are also the "pal" dogs that occur in almost every working
> lines litter. Wouldn't it be better if the people that wanted that "pal"
GSD
> wait for that puppy instead of buying from someone that isn't doing
anything to
> uphold the purpose of the breed.
That was my point, and you said it far better than I did. I also think that
breeders who aren't reputable shouldn't be allowed to have any access to any
dog who isn't spayed or neutered. A reputable (and by this I mean a breeder
who is looking for the breeds best intentions foremost. They study lines
and work to eliminate problems that are heriditary to specific breeds. Are
true to the standard and are involved with breeding for the love of the
breed first.) breeder will not give a "working" dog to someone who wants a
pet. They find a family that is the best match for the pup. And if someone
who really needs a "pal" but wants the ego that goes with some "working"
dogs, should be educated, not just turned away to find some byb who will
give the guy what he wants without thinking about the welfare of the pup.
Julie
--
~If you want to email me, remove the xyz from the .com
Julie
Lisa Baird wrote:
> This brings up one of my favorite "dog people" debates! (and please, lets
just
> keep it a friendly debate, not get in to flaming? <g>)
>
> Topic: "Should we still CARE, in this day and age, about the original
purpose of
> a breed, and breed dogs capable of performing those tasks?"
> We have though, *some* breeders who either openly, or not, breed for
Lisa,
My intention was not to support breeding dogs as pets. I just think that
there are some dogs in litters who really would only make good pets, and
shouldn't be counted out from the breed.
I have seen byb who seem to think breeding Labs and PBs and then labeling
them as Labs is ok. To someone who doesn't know better, they think they are
getting a Lab. Do you know how many of these crosses are are in shelters
and aren't placeable? They were never socialized properly because of the
myth that Labs are social dogs, they were never worked with regarding food
and toys because of the myth that Labs are easy going and nice. They don't
encourage spaying a neutering and they don't care what a dogs pedigree is.
I don't think breeders {I have no idea what I meant to say and my keyboard
acted up again} so ignore the working aspect of specific breeds. Look at
Cockers, a gun dog who supposedly loves water. I don't know many cockers
who like water currently and even less who like thuder much less guns.
Cockers became a faddish breed and because of that had temperment problems.
They have truly become pets and are rarely used for hunting as they were
originally bred. There are several breeds this has happened to, and it is
truly ashame.
Working shouldn't be bred out. It would be wrong, imnsho, but I don't think
it should be the primary trait for breeding. It should be one of them, but
I think that pedigree, health issues, temperment, standard, and working
ability should all be considered. A dog who does what he was originally
bred to do superbly, but has several faults, health questions and a nasty
temperment shouldn't be bred. A lot of things need to be considered when
breeding, the most important this is not to let one out weigh the others so
much that they are disregarded.
Melissa S. Frye
Julie <julie_L...@hotmail.comxyz> wrote in message
news:3n9M5.7781$Ho3....@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net...
>
>
> I don't think breeders {I have no idea what I meant to say and my keyboard
> acted up again} so ignore the working aspect of specific breeds. Look at
> Cockers, a gun dog who supposedly loves water. I don't know many cockers
> who like water currently and even less who like thuder much less guns.
> Cockers became a faddish breed and because of that had temperment
problems.
> They have truly become pets and are rarely used for hunting as they were
> originally bred. There are several breeds this has happened to, and it is
> truly ashame.
>
FYI
It is a shame that more cockers aren't bred with the orginial purpose in
mind but there are quite a few that are.
see:
www.mfrye.com/acshe/
and my own site...
www.mfrye.com/skyrocket/
There are field lines of cockers, working show lines of cockers, MHs and we
had our first field trial winner this year(american cocker - (we run against
english cockers in the US, many of which are imported English field trial
dogs (www.fieldcockers.com has more info in cocker field trials - there were
3 american cockers qualified for nationals this year).
Not enough IMHO, but getting more so all the time! And having seen many
cockers be first introduced to birds, many of them do take very well to it.
Melissa
With four cockers in hunt tests this weekend...
Gwen Watson
Bethgsd wrote:
Thank you Beth for pointing out my sentiments exactly!!!!
The Capt founded, created a near perfect dog why
mess with it anymore than that? At least this is the
way I feel.
Gwen
Gwen Watson
Bethgsd wrote:
> It is Ulf. Can't remember his last name though. He was a shepherd in E.
> Germany.
> Beth
Thanks Beth,
That is the name! I have even spoken with him once
on the phone, inquiring if there was any intent on
spreading throughout the US.
Gwen
Gwen Watson
Julie wrote:
> They find a family that is the best match for the pup. And if someone
> who really needs a "pal" but wants the ego that goes with some "working"
> dogs, should be educated, not just turned away to find some byb who will
> give the guy what he wants without thinking about the welfare of the pup.
>
> Julie
> --
> ~If you want to email me, remove the xyz from the .com
Julie,
I agree with this 101%.:))) This is exactly how I feel,
and as Beth said there are "pal" pups in almost
every working line litter. A good, reputable,
ethical breeder can tell the difference.
Gwen
Gwen Watson
Salty Tang wrote:
> Hi Gwen,
>
> I missed it if you posted earlier, but what type of work does your GSD
> do? Or did you just mean he was from working lines? If so do dogs
> bred to work do well in pet homes?
>
> Thanks!
>
> Salty
Hi Sally,
At this point I quit messing with Schutzhund. I would
have loved to have been involved in HGH herding
but alas the only club in US is on the East Coast.:(
I do like Schutzhund but several of the local clubs
here I was not so thrilled with their training approaches.
The one is more or less full, although I was recently
invited to come out.
What I do intend to do with my GSD is get involved
in Flyball which to him will probably be a barrel
of monkeys.
As Beth said in *almost* every "working line"
and or "high line"/working line litter there
is a "pal" pup. So to answer your question
yes. I will say they are or can be a bit harder dogs
as pups, but hey my dog is wonderful.
He has his quirks don't get me wrong,
but don't lots of pups? He is a bit headstrong
and was some kind of puppy to handle
but I love him dearly. Personally I have
heard most Sheps no matter what breeding
are VERY energetic as pups so you must
be willing to socialize and train early on.
Very early on and continue for a while or should I say
lifetime, just as you would a child.
Sheps actually LOVE to please so training
to them is an enjoyment and comes very naturally.
I hope this helps.
Gwen
Gwen Watson
Christy wrote:
>
>
> The name confused me - or is GSD short for German Schutzhund Dog?? <g>
> Seriously though, I just wondered why all the emphasis on the importance of
> non-herding work in the breed. Obviously, nobody can compete against the BC!
> <g> But I'd think that people wanting to promote the importance of the
> breed's origins would take the herding part into account and work on
> breeding for that as well. I have a Sheltie, and there aren't many (any?)
> breeders who put stock in, well, STOCK, when making breeding decisions.
> Seems a shame to me.
>
> Christy
Christy,
You must read up more on what the FOUNDER intended for the
dog. Actually I suppose when he first made selection to start
the breed they were being used as herding dogs, but when
he actually started the breed for what it was say in the
1930's he wanted the GSD to be an all around dog
with the ability to do many things. Capt v Stephanitz
founded the GSD in 1899.
GSD style of herding is totally different from Aussie,
ACD, sheltie, etc. It is called "tending" and it is meant
for very large flocks of sheep. The style is more
of a fence line herding style. What I mean by large
numbers is 1000+ sheep and they, the GSD's moved them
throughout Germany many miles. Thus why it
is hard to do this style of herding in US
due to the large numbers of sheep and the
amount of distance required, I think?
At any rate a gentlemen by the name
of Ulf(Beth pointed out correct name)
does do HGH herding on the East Coast
and his club is the only club currently in the
US.
Gwen
Lisa Baird
> My intention was not to support breeding dogs as pets. I just think that
> there are some dogs in litters who really would only make good pets, and
> shouldn't be counted out from the breed.
>
I agree 100%. Just like some dogs have some conformation fault (light eyes, ear
set off for the breed, etc.) that knock them out of the breeding program.
> Working shouldn't be bred out. It would be wrong, imnsho, but I don't think
> it should be the primary trait for breeding. It should be one of them, but
> I think that pedigree, health issues, temperment, standard, and working
> ability should all be considered.
Absolutely! But since it very difficult for judges to evaluate temperament at
all in the breed ring (other than its not quaking with its tail between its
legs, or trying to bite them!) I think many "show" breeders ignore it
completely, at best; and breed AWAY from high drive dogs at worst. Why breed
AWAY from it? Aside from the fact that its easier to sell the pets that way,
they don't want to have to deal with dogs that are not happy at being kenneled
all day, especially when they HAVE so many of them.
Please don't construe this as a slam against ALL show people. I *am* one. But
the "big names" are frequently this way, and with "trickle down", the buyers
they end up mentoring don't KNOW enough about proper temperament to breed for
it! I think many more show breeders just don't breed FOR it. IMO, a PWD without
drive is just a big curly mop.
> A dog who does what he was originally
> bred to do superbly, but has several faults, health questions and a nasty
> temperment shouldn't be bred.
Agreed.
Darlene Hernandez
>
> GSD style of herding is totally different from Aussie,
> ACD, sheltie, etc. It is called "tending" and it is meant
> for very large flocks of sheep.
LOL. If you are on the East Coast, the ONLY type of herding a GSD
supposedly can do is tending (AKC Course C). However the West Coast has a
different line of thought and GSDs can and do successfully act as gathering
and driving dogs. There are two very big political schools of thought on
the only "true" way to herd with a GSD.
Darlene Hernandez
Landmark Tervuren
Gwen Watson
Darlene Hernandez wrote:
> LOL. If you are on the East Coast, the ONLY type of herding a GSD
> supposedly can do is tending (AKC Course C). However the West Coast has a
> different line of thought and GSDs can and do successfully act as gathering
> and driving dogs. There are two very big political schools of thought on
> the only "true" way to herd with a GSD.
>
> Darlene Hernandez
> Landmark Tervuren
Darlene,
I am still talking Germany though, not US. I am talking about
what the Germans approve for breedable standards, ie
Schutzhund title or HGH title, which are the criterias
in which Capt v Stephanitz wrote when founding the
GSD.
I definately know of GSD's doing well in ACK Course
but what I am refering to is breedable standards
criteria. I am sorry I did not make myself clear
in this matter.
Gwen
Christy
"Lisa Baird" <agi...@columbus.rr.com> wrote in message
news:3A008292...@columbus.rr.com...
>
> Ahem! I happen to be related to a number of Shelties who can beat BCs in
> herding. <g> Seriously, do you know Claudia Frank? One of her "Duce" sons
(See
> him working ducks at:
http://pawzitivebeginnings.webprovider.com/index.htm)
> recently finished his HS, at just two years of age. He went HIT with his
first
> leg, the day after he finished his PT.
>
> Claudia's Shelties not only excel at herding, they are also working sheep
dogs
> on her farm. Maybe its just our area, but there are a number of wonderful
> herding Shelties around here! Not just at the AKC trial, but AHBA and
others. I
> was scribing an event this summer, large flock ranch type course. Several
> Shelties, most of whom did well. (Along with a WONDERFUL Cardigan Corgi!)
>
> (BTW, our Fancy is expecting a litter out of Claudia's Duce!<g>)
>
>
Thats what I get for living in So. California, where there aren't a whole
heck of a lotta sheep ranches.
In fact, its hard to find anything herding related in my area. I'm going to
be taking Bodhi to a herding test today - with actual sheep (not the blow-up
kind that are probably a lot more common in So.Cal.!!)
When are those puppies due? Gotta get another puppy photo fix!
Christy
Robin Nuttall
>
> Absolutely! But since it very difficult for judges to evaluate temperament at
> all in the breed ring (other than its not quaking with its tail between its
> legs, or trying to bite them!) I think many "show" breeders ignore it
> completely, at best; and breed AWAY from high drive dogs at worst. Why breed
> AWAY from it? Aside from the fact that its easier to sell the pets that way,
> they don't want to have to deal with dogs that are not happy at being kenneled
> all day, especially when they HAVE so many of them.
A judge *cannot* evaluate temperament in the ring. And neither can a
breeder. In my breed (dobes), some show breeders feel that if a dog
stands for the judge, shows well, and is outgoing and friendly, then it
has a good temperament.
I too strongly support conformation shows. However, you cannot make
inferences about temperament based on the conformation ring. That's why
we have various sports.
Now the doberman was a personal protection dog. Schutzhund evaluates
some of the traits important to a personal protection dog, but not all
of them. Schutzhund, as a stylized sport, also has some other
limitations in looking at temperament. However, if you actually TRAIN a
dog for schutzhund, you find, in the training itself, where the
strengths and weaknesses of temperament are.
This actually can also be applied more widely. I feel very strongly that
you get many insights into a dog's temperament by training them to the
middle/upper levels of any sport. Pretty much anyone can get a CD or
even an NA on their dog. But start upping the ante, start adding more
tasks, more complexity, more stress, and you start seeing things in the
temperament. Things you can use to make intelligent breeding decisions.
Is the dog bold and confident even under pressure? Does he keep forward
motion and thought? Does he have high prey, play, and fight drives? Is
he compliant to the owner's wishes? Can he bounce back from adversity,
and if so, how fast? Can he take a correction or redirection without
falling apart or shutting down? Can he concentrate? How quickly does he
learn?
Jasper is a perfect example of a dog who would be deceiving to someone
who didn't actually work him. To all outward appearances he was cocky,
confident, and a lover of any and all who came near him. He showed as a
puppy and was absolutely rock steady in the ring and had a great time.
He strutted. I thought he would make a *great* obedience dog. Then I
started training him. He was fine as long as everything was hunky-dory
and he knew what he was doing. But ask him to do something complex, or
difficult, or that he wasn't sure about, and he would totally and
completely shut down. I worked with him for two years before giving up
in despair.
Do I think a dog MUST be worked specifically at the task for which it
was bred for? No. Especially since some dogs were bred to do things we
no longer accept as humane. And frankly, NO dogs were bred to do the
sport of schutzhund! However, I do think that working breeds should work
at *something*. And they should be worked to higher levels in that. A CD
or a PT or a NA simply doesn't tell you enough about temperament to make
a breeding decision based on it. Show me a UD or an AX and I can ask you
about your dog's temperament, and you'll be able to tell me things.
A Ch/CD doesn't tell me much more than a Ch. A CH/CD/ROM starts to tell
me something. A Ch/UD tells me more. But you still can't breed based on
letters in front of or behind the dog's name. You need to be dealing
with an honest owner who is willing to share both the strengths and
weaknesses of conformation, temperament, and pedigree.
--
Robin Nuttall
DD Graphix
http://www.ddgraphix.com
Lynn Kosmakos
Julie wrote:
> Working shouldn't be bred out. It would be wrong, imnsho, but I don't think
> it should be the primary trait for breeding. It should be one of them, but
> I think that pedigree, health issues, temperment, standard, and working
> ability should all be considered.
The problem I have with that is that I can't really separate temperament
and working ability. It's not a question of breeding out working drives
deliberately so much as failing to retain them. This is very much a
case of "what you don't select for, you lose". I don't think anyone
would suggest selecting for working ability to the exclusion of all
other factors, but by not including working ability as a factor a
breeder
is in fact breeding away from it.
Lynn K.
Robin Nuttall
>
> Absolutely, it is called HGH title in Germany.
>
> At any rate Capt Stephanitz started Schutzhund
> to test temperment, endurance and courage.
Konrad Most invented schutzhund, not Stephanitz. Schutzhund came about
long after the GSD breed was established. As a matter of fact, Most
first looked at Dobermans for his schutzhund idea, but was rejected by
the Doberman people of the time, then got interested in GSDs and it went
from there. Schutzhund is a better "fit" for GSDs than it is for Dobes.
The GSD was NOT originally bred to do schutzhund work! It was a herding
dog (hence shepherd). It was, however, like many dogs of that time and
country, also a general all around good protector.
Dianne Schoenberg
>Hey! That's right, you mentioned that before! (Thump myself on the head)
>Thats what I get for living in So. California, where there aren't a whole
>heck of a lotta sheep ranches.
>In fact, its hard to find anything herding related in my area.
Umm... half of the AKC herding trials in the country are in
Southern California. Plus tons of AHBA and BC trials too
(don't know how much ASCA they have down there, although
there's definitely some). You're obviously not hanging out
with the right crowd <*vbg*>.
>I'm going to
>be taking Bodhi to a herding test today - with actual sheep (not the blow-up
>kind that are probably a lot more common in So.Cal.!!)
You'll have a blast!
Dianne
Dianne Schoenberg
> It is Ulf. Can't remember his last name though.
Ulf Kinzel.
Dianne
Marla Belzowski
>
>
> Marla Belzowski wrote:
>
> > > What I would recommend and what you may want are 2 different
> > > things. GSD's have evolved into several different types of
> > > dogs. Pretty dogs AKC beauty pagent types that couldn't work
> > > if their lives depended on it.
> >
> > That's a lie GWEN and YOU KNOW IT!
> > What complete and total BS you spout.
>
> What part of this is exactly a LIE?????
I quoted your words there..
You said that "Pretty dogs AKC beauty pagent types that couldn't work if
their lifes depended on it." and that is a lie.
>
> I would like to know?????
We've been over this before. You seem to keep forgetting that Max did want
a dog that was versitile enough to do anything and that includes being a dog
that is both beautiful and functional. You are really limiting yourself by
your narrow view of the GSD as the only important part of them is SCH work.
It's not.
> The part about them evolving
> into 2 separate breeds more or less of the part that
> the American lines are more concerned with looks that
> the ability to work?
There are many American breeders breeding not only dogs nice to look at but
are also very capable of working. There are many American breeders that do
NOT enjoy doing the schutzhund work you enjoy. That does not mean their
dogs can not work, it means they do not desire to compete in it. I for one
am so turned off by the attitudes of the people involved in Schutzhund work
I have absolutely NO desire to even watch a trial anymore (and I have seen
them in the past and recently and they attitude of the people has not
changed here).
>
> Please elaborate on the word LIE, since
> it is a VERY, VERY strong word to use
> in this incident.
I think I have and now I will give you the proof of dogs that are American
bred, that ARE working.
Here are Therapy dogs working to improve the lives of others,
Here are dogs titled in Herding and Obedience and Agility and Tracking
All doing "events" that show their trainabiliy, flexability, and drive.
http://www.gsdworld.com/SHOWBOAT/
http://www.gsdworld.com/SHOWBOAT/Performance.htm
http://members.aol.com/andaka/kenofile.htm
http://www.rivendellgsd.com/
http://www.gsdca.org/Noframes/WannaB.html
http://www.gsdca.org/Noframes/smithweistock.html
And they are ALL breeding for the conformation type dog on top of that.
So, Gwen when you put down the "conformation" dog for not being able to
work, you are showing everyone just how limited your views of the GSD breed
are. Believe me, you are shaming Max, as he wanted a dog that could DO IT
ALL, and that is what you should be promoting! I see you fixated on one
small aspect of the GSD and for that you are no better then those breeders
who focus on just the "Conformation" aspect of the breed.
I can appreaciate those dogs that do SCH work, but if they are not also
capable of keeping up in the Conformation ring, then I do not want one of
them, as that to me is not a superior GSD.
When I find the dog that can do it all (and that includes getting an
AMERICAN AKC Champion title to me), then I will have found the ideal GSD.
Marla Belzowski
& the LegendHold Collie Clan (& the GSD that is just about perfect)
Bethgsd
>mess with it anymore than that? At least this is the
>way I feel.
>
>Gwen
Gwen,
"Near perfect"!? I do believe the Capt developed the PERFECT breed;-)
Do you have the Thanks Max shirt? It is my favorite.
Beth
Bethgsd
>drive is just a big curly mop.
Lisa,
Too funny! The only PWDs I've met in person were working in obedience. I do
believe at least one of the ones that I saw went on to finish its OTCH.
Beth
Bethgsd
>capable of keeping up in the Conformation ring, then I do not want one of
>them, as that to me is not a superior GSD.
>When I find the dog that can do it all (and that includes getting an
>AMERICAN AKC Champion title to me), then I will have found the ideal GSD.
Marla,
I have no problem with people liking what I call the American breed ring type
shepherd, and have met a few that could do upper level obedience, agility and
herding. However, I have as of yet to see a German V rated dog that would be
able to finish its AKC championship. The flip side being that I haven't seen
an AKC champion that could be V rated at a SV style show.
It was a big shock to me when I first saw the shepherds in the AKC breed ring.
(This was back in the early '90's) I have always loved and wanted a GSD and
had read all I could about the breed. The books I had read must have been
dated, since they showed dogs without extreme angulation, many imported from
Germany with V ratings and SchH titles that earned their AKC championships.
Imagine my shock when I saw puppies walking on theirmeta tarsal bones. FWIW I
already had put a CDX on my first shepherd when I bothered to watch the breed
ring judging.
Big shrug. I personally think the breed has enough schisms that just about any
dog owner could own a "German Shepherd" and have what they want; a mellow couch
potatoe, a dog that could herd sheep all day, a dog that could work on a
military base, etc.
This doesn't mean I agree with the schism, or that I would own a dog that
doesn't fit my ideal of the German Shepherd dog but I don't see the GSDCA
changing their breed standard or name.
Also, FWIW, the one national I was lucky enough to attend, in obedience, at
least the majority of the dogs were German lines vs. American show lines.
Long and rambling, buy hey, why not?
Beth
Lynn Kosmakos
Marla Belzowski wrote:
> I think I have and now I will give you the proof of dogs that are American
> bred, that ARE working.
> Here are Therapy dogs working to improve the lives of others,
> Here are dogs titled in Herding and Obedience and Agility and Tracking
> All doing "events" that show their trainabiliy, flexability, and drive.
>
> http://www.gsdworld.com/SHOWBOAT/
> http://www.gsdworld.com/SHOWBOAT/Performance.htm
> http://www.rivendellgsd.com/
With all due respect, Marla, I don't think Kay Springer or Jennifer
and Paul Root would call their dogs working GSDs. In fact, I know
they wouldn't because I know both them and their dogs. They breed
good solid GSDs - but AKC show GSDs. I've trained a number of the
dogs they've bred, including one that is going for her 1st CD leg on
Sunday, and am with them at every event of our local GSD club. But
there IS a difference between the dogs they breed, nice as they are,
and the kind of working dogs that Gwen is talking about, and they would
be the first to agree.
Lynn K.
Cathryn987
>reputable breeder and have accumulated lots of info over the past few weeks.
I suggest you check out this site: http://members.aol.com/kadamigsd/Karen.html
I started looking a couple of years ago, came across Karen's website and tucked
it into the back of my mind for future reference. In August I purchased one of
her puppies, and I am overjoyed with her! Working Dog Supreme! Drive Plus!
Intelligence to the max! Athletic ability from day ONE! Did I mention how much
we love her? Karen's breeding philosophy is what struck me first, and I am
looking forward to fulfilling a stipulation in the puppy contract that states I
have to get her OFA'd at 2 years and report back to Karen. She keeps extensive
records on all her litters, and I expect very good hips on my girl... Karen is
repeating this breeding, being very pleased with this litter.
Marla Belzowski
Bethgsd <bet...@aol.comnojunk> wrote in message
news:20001102194113...@ng-fr1.aol.com...
> >I can appreaciate those dogs that do SCH work, but if they are not also
> >capable of keeping up in the Conformation ring, then I do not want one of
> >them, as that to me is not a superior GSD.
> >When I find the dog that can do it all (and that includes getting an
> >AMERICAN AKC Champion title to me), then I will have found the ideal GSD.
>
> Marla,
> I have no problem with people liking what I call the American breed ring
type
> shepherd, and have met a few that could do upper level obedience, agility
and
> herding. However, I have as of yet to see a German V rated dog that would
be
> able to finish its AKC championship. The flip side being that I haven't
seen
> an AKC champion that could be V rated at a SV style show.
Believe me there is a big bias both ways and the fault is not the dogs, but
the people.
> It was a big shock to me when I first saw the shepherds in the AKC breed
ring.
> (This was back in the early '90's) I have always loved and wanted a GSD
and
> had read all I could about the breed. The books I had read must have been
> dated, since they showed dogs without extreme angulation, many imported
from
> Germany with V ratings and SchH titles that earned their AKC
championships.
There are not many these days and there haven't been for at least the last
12 years that I have been watching the GSD rings.
> Imagine my shock when I saw puppies walking on theirmeta tarsal bones.
Like I said, there are those breeders that go to extremes. I don't like
that development either, yet I like some slope to the rear to give some
power, but not a rear that is so overdone it is not functional. There is a
fine line.
> FWIW I
> already had put a CDX on my first shepherd when I bothered to watch the
breed
> ring judging.
> Big shrug. I personally think the breed has enough schisms that just
about any
> dog owner could own a "German Shepherd" and have what they want; a mellow
couch
> potatoe, a dog that could herd sheep all day, a dog that could work on a
> military base, etc.
YES the range is very wide, and to me ALL of these dog ARE GSD's because
they are all part of a genetic pool that is fullfilling the wishes of Capt.
Max.
> This doesn't mean I agree with the schism, or that I would own a dog that
> doesn't fit my ideal of the German Shepherd dog but I don't see the GSDCA
> changing their breed standard or name.
I don't think they ever should.
> Also, FWIW, the one national I was lucky enough to attend, in obedience,
at
> least the majority of the dogs were German lines vs. American show lines.
> Long and rambling, buy hey, why not?
The GSD National is just down the block here in Columbus this week (I'm
going tomorrow to watch BOB competition as I'm off work). Obedience is
Tomorrow :( and I have to work. (But we're secretly cheering on the ILP GSD
that is in Open B and Utility B -- GO LISA AND QUANI~!!)
Here's the "on-line" catalogue if you want to see who's being shown and who
is placing and winning.
http://www.gsdca.org/Noframes/nationals00.htm
I am seriously considering breeding my Devon to a dog who's "get" is placing
and qualifying in both herding and will hopefully gets some legs in
obedience. I saw him two weekends ago and even at 9 years old he is a very
competitive and active dog with a lot of drive, however, I still have no
intention to ever show in SCH although I know some of his pups probably very
easly could.
Cheers,
Marla Belzowski
& the LegendHold Collie Clan (and the GSD that is just about perfect)
Marla Belzowski
Lynn Kosmakos <lkos...@home.com> wrote in message
news:3A020CDB...@home.com...
And that is where the problem lies between what Gwen calls working and I
call working.
Working dogs have a lot of different areas that they can "work" in. I have
zero interest in the "work" Gwen does, but I have a lot of interest in the
"work" of herding GSDs. The temperament is going to be different between
the two. When she claims conformation GSD can not work, that is not true,
as the "work" is so very subject to the "goals" of the handler.
Marla Belzowski
& the LegendHold Collie Clan (and the GSD that is just about perfect)
Woo Woo Sister
lines, no matter what breed you are thinking of getting, you will be paying
more than $3,000. You will pay and pay and pay. And I don't mean monetarily
either. Ever see a dog have epileptic seizures? A dog with hip dysplasia so
bad it had to be put down? It's not pretty, and it's heartbreaking.
Do yourself a favor and do some more searching. These people are not bashing
you or the kennel, they are trying to protect you.
Christy
"Dianne Schoenberg" <dia...@user2.teleport.com> wrote in message
news:8tshkg$c8u$1...@user2.teleport.com...
> Umm... half of the AKC herding trials in the country are in
> Southern California. Plus tons of AHBA and BC trials too
> (don't know how much ASCA they have down there, although
> there's definitely some). You're obviously not hanging out
> with the right crowd <*vbg*>.
NO KIDDING! <g>
OK, so I was talking outta my arse, I've come to find out. But hey - I
looked all over the net and could only find Northern California, and nobody
in my agility circles had a clue, so I figured sheep were as uncommon as
unclogged freeways. Nevermind! I retract that whole sentence. <g>
>
> >I'm going to
> >be taking Bodhi to a herding test today - with actual sheep (not the
blow-up
> >kind that are probably a lot more common in So.Cal.!!)
>
> You'll have a blast!
>
Oh, did we ever!! And I found out a bit about those millions of herding folk
who were hiding from me.
Soooo... my dog, he likes the sheep. He wasn't real sure at first about me
encouraging him to do to the sheep what he's WANTED to do to the cats and
been scolded for, but it didn't take long for him to loosen up and git 'em.
I'm signed up for classes, and my wallet would have preferred he didn't have
it in him, but it was pretty darned exciting. :D
Christy
Lynn Kosmakos
Marla Belzowski wrote:
> And that is where the problem lies between what Gwen calls working and I
> call working.
> Working dogs have a lot of different areas that they can "work" in. I have
> zero interest in the "work" Gwen does, but I have a lot of interest in the
> "work" of herding GSDs. The temperament is going to be different between
> the two. When she claims conformation GSD can not work, that is not true,
> as the "work" is so very subject to the "goals" of the handler.
I tend to have very little patience with the age-old arguments about
which type of GSD is better, largely because I think the argument is
unnecessary. Our local GSD club has AKC kennels like Showboat,
Linnloch,
Rivendell, several police K9 handlers, 2 SV breed wardens, lots of
ScH folks, and we don't have these arguments because we've simply
learned mutual respect. But we all use "working" to mean a fairly
specific thing in GSD-speak, and it isn't being competitive in AKC
performance events.
My personal preference is for German high-lines dogs with solid
ScH/herding backgrounds. My 4 yr old has proven his capabilties
in SAR, obedience, herding, agility, & tracking. But he's not a
"working" GSD. He's German high-lines, no matter what he learns or
does.
Lynn K.
Carol & The Bullmarket Frogs
<lkos...@home.com> wrote:
> My personal preference is for German high-lines dogs with solid
> ScH/herding backgrounds.
Hey Lynn:
What does "high lines" mean? Not intending to show my
ignorance of all things fluffy-butted, but this one
has me stumped.
Carol
--
French Bulldogs by Bullmarket
http://www.bullmarketfrogs.com
French Bulldog Fun Zone
http://www.frenchbulldogfun.com
Dianne Schoenberg
>OK, so I was talking outta my arse, I've come to find out. But hey - I
>looked all over the net and could only find Northern California, and nobody
>in my agility circles had a clue, so I figured sheep were as uncommon as
>unclogged freeways. Nevermind! I retract that whole sentence. <g>
<*g*> Don't worry--herding doesn't tend to be very publicized,
so you pretty much have to know someone who knows someone to
know what's going on...
>Soooo... my dog, he likes the sheep. He wasn't real sure at first about me
>encouraging him to do to the sheep what he's WANTED to do to the cats and
>been scolded for, but it didn't take long for him to loosen up and git 'em.
Very very typical of dogs that start herding when they're a little
older. Not a problem though--it often takes more than one exposure
to stock to convince a dog that it's actually *okay* to chase
the woolies, but once they've figured that out, watch out! :-)
>I'm signed up for classes, and my wallet would have preferred he didn't have
>it in him, but it was pretty darned exciting. :D
Oh, you do NOT want to know how much money I have spent on herding
throughout the years... suffice it to say after having driven tens
of thousands of miles and spent many many $$$ I finally have my
own sheep :-). Herding is addictive--glad to know we've found a
new sucker^H^H^H^H^H^H recruit! Keep us posted on Bodhi's progress!
Dianne
& K.C. HS, Patience HX & Chloe PT
Lynn Kosmakos
Carol & The Bullmarket Frogs wrote:
> What does "high lines" mean?
German show conformation lines. They still must have performance
(ScH or herding) titles, as well, but are more conformation oriented
than the "working" lines.
Lynn K.
Christy
>
> Very very typical of dogs that start herding when they're a little
> older. Not a problem though--it often takes more than one exposure
> to stock to convince a dog that it's actually *okay* to chase
> the woolies, but once they've figured that out, watch out! :-)
Yes, that is what the trainer indicated - plus the fact that he's had a
couple of years of restriction against herding the cats. The first time we
went in, he spent a lot of time running back to me and barking, but the 2nd
round he had a lot more confidence and only came back to me a couple of
times. He didn't really know what to do when the sheep weren't moving, but
when they started to move he responded. Now I've just got to remind him that
the cats are NOT small sheep...
>
> Oh, you do NOT want to know how much money I have spent on herding
> throughout the years... suffice it to say after having driven tens
> of thousands of miles and spent many many $$$ I finally have my
> own sheep :-). Herding is addictive--glad to know we've found a
> new sucker^H^H^H^H^H^H recruit! Keep us posted on Bodhi's progress!
I have a feeling it will take the first 8 week class just for me to
comprehend what the trainer is saying... and I thought agility had a lot of
lingo! ;) The rest of the class are BC's who have been training for 2
months, except for my friend w/the Sheltie who started a few weeks ago (and
the trainer is very impressed with his ability, so we'll probably always be
the red headed stepchild of the bunch!)
Christy
Carol & The Bullmarket Frogs
<lkos...@home.com> wrote:
> German show conformation lines. They still must have performance
> (ScH or herding) titles, as well, but are more conformation oriented
> than the "working" lines.
Huh. That's interesting. I wonder if that means
I breed a form of 'high line' Frenchies? I
ask this because I think that, irregardless
of the fact this is both a companion breed and
a bull breed, they should still be able to
work in obedience/agility and pass health
clearances, as well as compete in shows.
Many os us know feel that there are two
types of Frenchies - European 'type' (less
exagerated heads, better breathing, more
free whelpers, a little higher on leg and
longer in back, much sharper temperment)
and an American 'type' (very heavy bone,
huge heads, almost always sectioned, very
short back, less leg, much flatter face).
I'm breeding on a combination of the two.
Dianne Schoenberg
>Now I've just got to remind him that the cats are NOT small sheep...
Oh, I figure he's smart enough to figure that out :-).
>I have a feeling it will take the first 8 week class just for me to
>comprehend what the trainer is saying... and I thought agility had a lot of
>lingo! ;)
Uh... it actually took me longer than 8 weeks. Still, I'm
glad I persisted :-). On the plus side, when I took up agility
with my HX bitch, we both picked it up in a snap--we already
had a great working relationship, and herding had honed my
awareness of body language & positioning.
>The rest of the class are BC's who have been training for 2
>months, except for my friend w/the Sheltie who started a few weeks ago (and
>the trainer is very impressed with his ability, so we'll probably always be
>the red headed stepchild of the bunch!)
So who's the trainer?
Dianne (who, being a red-headed stepchild herself, can sympathize
with Bodhi <*vbg*>)
Marla Belzowski
Carol & The Bullmarket Frogs <bullm...@cutthisout-bullmarketfrogs.com>
wrote in message
news:bullmarket-03...@hse-toronto-ppp165636.sympatico.ca...
> In article <3A032830...@home.com>, Lynn Kosmakos
> <lkos...@home.com> wrote:
>
>
> > German show conformation lines. They still must have performance
> > (ScH or herding) titles, as well, but are more conformation oriented
> > than the "working" lines.
>
> Huh. That's interesting. I wonder if that means
> I breed a form of 'high line' Frenchies? I
> ask this because I think that, irregardless
> of the fact this is both a companion breed and
> a bull breed, they should still be able to
> work in obedience/agility and pass health
> clearances, as well as compete in shows.
>
> Many os us know feel that there are two
> types of Frenchies - European 'type' (less
> exagerated heads, better breathing, more
> free whelpers, a little higher on leg and
> longer in back, much sharper temperment)
> and an American 'type' (very heavy bone,
> huge heads, almost always sectioned, very
> short back, less leg, much flatter face).
> I'm breeding on a combination of the two.
>
> Carol
Well Carol if you have high line Bullies, I have "high line" Rough Collies!
HEHE!
ALL my collies do obedience and herding and I breed a taller collie with
emphasis on reach and drive and a less fluffy coat that is "harsh" to the
touch.... hmmm... The Europeans collies are tiny and so full of fluffy coat
they would have troubles herding through a rough thicket.
Marla Belzowski
& the LegendHold Collie Clan
(going for another CD title next weekend! Indy has just one leg to go!)
Dianne Schoenberg
>Ted Ondrak of the San Fernando Valley Herding Assoc. Nice guy, talks funny.
>;)
I've never met them, but have heard good things about Ted & Janna.
>Christy
>(what's a lucite dog?? Ohhhh.... LOOSE EYED <g>)
Well, "lucite" makes about as much sense to most people
as "loose eyed" does :-).
Dianne
& K.C., Patience & Chloe (all lucite dogs!! <*g*>)
Marla Belzowski
> In article <3a035732$0$35390$2d3e...@news.sotainter.net>, "Marla
> Belzowski" <legen...@johnstown.net> wrote:
>
>
> > Well Carol if you have high line Bullies, I have "high line" Rough
Collies!
> > HEHE!
>
> inbred collies" as I do hearing how ALL bull breeds
> need palate clips and drop dead at two years.
Believe me I have heard it all when it comes to...
"Do you breed those old pencil nosed collies, you know the ones that have
eye problems because of the head shape?" and "Well those lassie dogs get
lost at the end of a leash as they inbred the brains right out of them.."
and this one..."Herd sheep, a collie, right!???" Yep heard it a hundred
times over... along with "what is that blue dog a mix of?" and "Hey, is that
a long haired Doberman!"
>
> > ALL my collies do obedience and herding
>
> Hmm. I think Tessa would enjoy herding, esp. if she could
> herd some nice fluffy lambs right onto the dinner table.
> She's rather fond of lamb chops.
>
> and I breed a taller collie with
> > emphasis on reach and drive and a less fluffy coat that is "harsh" to
the
> > touch
>
> Marla, do you find there's a lot of difference
> between the heavily (show) campaigned Collies
> in terms of type, and what you're breeding for?
Some but not as much as you would think. If anything my dogs are taller
with more leg under them then the "big winning" conformation dogs. A lot of
the conformation dogs are falling way out of the written standard for size
right now. A lot of old time breeders are talking about the size of the
conformation dog as a big problem and a trend that is not improving. Many
are way too small.
The movement and reach is going fast too as too many dogs are being bred for
that pretty "statue" look when standing to create an arched neck, which is
wrecking the angulations on the shoulders. The collie's movement is getting
more and more hackney like which is totally incorrect for a herding breed.
That's what happens in any breed when you over emphasize one aspect, which
for the collie is the head and expression properties.
I breed in straight conformation dogs to improve my heads and add some
better ear placement (my dogs tend to have low set ears which comes with
some of the natural tipping). I started with farm dogs that actually did
herd and I'm adding the conformation aspect to them with careful crosses.
It does decrease my herding drives at times and I find many conformation
only dogs to be very soft dogs and very sensitive to correction at times.
There are some serious temperament problems in the straight conformation
lines when it comes to doing competitive obedience and you do have to be
careful to not get too soft. A lot of this is the conforamtion only
breeders don't want a "smart" dog as they are difficult to keep in "kennel"
runs without barking or being destructive, so they by default tend to breed
dogs that are "easy to keep" like a prize "carrot" and don't take a lot of
attention to keep occupied. The gap between working collies and show
collies isn't all that far yet. You can still work straight conformation
lines, but it takes a lot more time to train them. My Rachel is testament
to that. She hates obedience as that is so structured, but loves agility
and herding. She's got a soft temperament with people, but is hell on sheep
(she will take your fingers tips off for garlic liver when she get over
excited!). Two of her daughters are excellent obedience dogs, one with a
hard temperament and one with a soft temperament, the third is very much
like her mother and a conformation dog first (feed me bon bons mom!) and
working dog second. All three of her daughters have great herding instinct.
Their father, Wolfie, had a more characteristic temperament and style that I
like (he was a lover not a fighter, but he would take charge if needed,
saved me from serious harm twice!!), but he was NOT a conformaiton dog by
any means (lacked coat and had low ears), but I did take two SCH lessons
with him and he about knocked the trainer off his feet the first time he
grabbed the sleve (and the trainer said a collie couldn't do schutzhund work
as it wouldn't do bite work...he's got a little more respect for a collie
now!) Not that I really care about that, but I do know for sure now that
they will raise to the occasion if needed, and most collies typically will
without training.
I do Temperament Test all my dogs and so far I've only had one fail it on
the grating across the ground (she wouldn't walk over it), but she was also
in full blown season and squirrley when we tested her so I'll test her next
spring again and see what happens.
So to answer your question, yes there are some differences but not as
extreme as you would think.
Lisa Baird
Lynn Kosmakos wrote:
> learned mutual respect. But we all use "working" to mean a fairly
> specific thing in GSD-speak, and it isn't being competitive in AKC
> performance events.
>
Its similar with the herding people I know. The don't really consider AKC herding
"real" herding. Many of them do participate, mainly so the AKC'ers can see how
real herding dogs work. I mean, c'mon, a 20 mos. old Sheltie went HIT in Started,
hi first time in at an area trial! While his owner was thrilled, she realizes he
has a LONG way to go! We've had one AKC "Course B" in the area, but everything
else is "Course A", which is great for the recreational herders, like me. <g>
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Lisa Baird
Dublin, Ohio
Haleakala Portuguese Water Dogs
Buckeye Region Agility Group, Inc.
PAWZitive Beginnings Dog Training, LLC
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Lisa Baird
Christy wrote:
> Thats what I get for living in So. California, where there aren't a whole
> heck of a lotta sheep ranches.
There is a Sheltie/Collie person in Ca. I can't think of her name right now, but
she was here last year giving a herding seminar. (I had to miss it) I don't know
tough, if she's southern or northern.
> In fact, its hard to find anything herding related in my area. I'm going to
> be taking Bodhi to a herding test today - with actual sheep (not the blow-up
>
Have fun!
> When are those puppies due? Gotta get another puppy photo fix!
Dec. 12. We go in for our ultra sound this evening!
Gwen Watson
Lynn Kosmakos wrote:
> My personal preference is for German high-lines dogs with solid
> ScH/herding backgrounds. My 4 yr old has proven his capabilties
> in SAR, obedience, herding, agility, & tracking. But he's not a
> "working" GSD. He's German high-lines, no matter what he learns or
> does.
>
> Lynn K.
Lynn,
I agree with this absolutely. I know I am overly
passionate with my views over this topic. I agree
with having respect. My real beef as I have
put it is the American Show lines are NOT
what the Capt had in mind we he founded
the GSD. I totally admit my passion
is more or less over board but as I have
stated in another post I would imagine
Capt S was one of THE only founders
on his dying bed with his last dying breath
begged to maintain his breed as he had
wanted them to be working dogs.
Thus me maintaining the idea that the
American show lines should be
called American Shepherd dogs.
The only standard they have adhered
to as far as what Capt Max
wrote was coloration, and length
of fur, tail, and maybe height? As far as I can
see. Their angulation, shape, bone
structure, leg length and structure
head structure and so on are sooooooo
different from what he had in mind. Or
what the West German GSD is
and how about the East German? Which
is really more like what he founded.
This is not to say the American GSD is
not beautiful or good dogs I have never
claimed this, but they are not what
Capt Max wrote in his standards,
one being the Schutzhund title.
I do have a book in German
written by his daughter dated
1933. Most of the standards
are all there in B&W. Also the
HGH style of herding was considered
as an alternate to Schutzhund.
Again I apologize for being so very very
passionate about this and I honestly know
I would not be so passionate if it weren't
for a dying mans wishes that were of
course very honorable wishes indeed.
Gwen