I had a Muttley
janu...@webtv.net
almost all of my llfe. Most of them were GSDs. A few mixes, some
purebreds purchased from breeders, many, many, many rescues.
I was not looking for a dog when I found Bouncer. I was a journalist and
each week I visited the local pound to photograph an adoptable pet and
to write hopefully helpful words for the others.
There were numerous pens crowded with canines, but Bouncer was in
solitary confinement.
In my eyes he was magnificent. An old fashioned GSD, obviously from
German working dog lines. Oversized. Straight back.
" What a great dog!" I exclaimed as I started towards him with my camera
ready.
" No", said the attendant. " He's not a great dog. He's very aggressive.
He fights any and all dogs. He is oblivious to humans. Untrainable.
He'll be put down. Who would want him?"
" I do!" I replied.
They agreed to hold him for a few days. Each afternoon I visited and
talked to Bouncer through the cage door. On the third day he approached
and acknowledged me.
I went to my car to obtain a leash and returned to the shelter, leaving
the car door open.
" I think we're ready," I told the attendant.
I led Bouncer out into the yard and when we approached my car I asked
him:" Do you want to go home with me?"
He tugged on the leash. I dropped the leash. He leaped into the car.
I already had two dogs and several cats. Bouncer went into his own
private pen temporarily but in a few days was sharing the entire large
fenced yard with a spayed female adult GSD and a younger male with no
problem.
I was into Schutzhund at that time, so asked one of the instructors to
evaluate Bouncer, advising him of the unknown past and aggressive
behavior in the pound.
Bouncer was pronounced okay for basic obedience class, so we proceeded
to enroll. His dog aggressiveness flourished, but I could control him.
The instructor advised a prong collar and I followed that advice.
Soon after that Bouncer was showing aggression in class and although I
had him under control the instructor said: " Let me take him."
She took the leash and proceeded to jerk him from side to side while
yelling at him. After three or four hard jerks, Bouncer lunged at her
and bit her, tearing a gash in the arm that held the leash.
I immediately retrieved my dog while others attended to the wound. With
Bouncer in the back seat of my car and the wounded instructor just ahead
of him in the front seat I drove her to a doctor.
There were no repercussiions, no lawsuits, no hard feelings. She took
the blame. Euthenasia was never mentioned.
Bouncer lived the remainder of his lengthy life in my back yard behind
seven foot chain link fencing. He came in the house with me when I was
home.
During his life with me he killed a hapless cat who somehow foolishly
scaled that fence and entered his yard.
Bouncer loved me and I loved him. I remember him so well after all these
years .
And yes, I now have a dog. An oversize, straight backed Rescue GSD whose
life expectancy is similar to mine.
Jan
diddy
janu...@webtv.net whittled the following words:
What a wonderfully written story of love,compassion, acceptance of
imperfections, and limitations, yet embracing the wonderful qualities of an
imperfect pet. I can see why you are a journalist, and I'm sure you are a
success. Considering a Dog's life is proportionally short compared to
humans, I hope both you and your current dog well out-live expectations.
pfoley
<janu...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:23392-45...@storefull-3338.bay.webtv.net...
I love that story, and wonderfully written.
>
Judith Althouse
What a beautiful story and naturally well written since that was one
of your passions (writing). The other gift you have was to see past the
dog in a cage scheduled for death and made him your own....and made it
work for both of you.
Good luck to you and your present friend.
Be Free,
Judy
Janet B
clicked their heels and said:
>
>I love that story, and wonderfully written.
>>
as fiction? Many things don't add up about 45 years ago. "I was INTO
Schutzhund". How many 90 year olds phrase things that way? And prong
collars being the norm? It's all pretty fishy IMO, but a lot of us
have had difficult dogs. Doesn't mean most people would or should go
looking for them.
--
Janet Boss
www.bestfriendsdogobedience.com
Melinda Shore
Janet B <ja...@bestfriendsdogobedience.com> wrote:
>as fiction? Many things don't add up about 45 years ago. "I was INTO
>Schutzhund". How many 90 year olds phrase things that way?
My 72-year-old mother uses '60s slang all the time. "Into"
is the least of it.
But anyway, after reading the post my response was "Yes, and ... ?"
The poster may have had a Muttley but the poster wasn't a
Paul, and I'm not sure why this was framed as a "Muttley"
except specifically to draw comparisons. I think that's not
fair. I mean, c'mon - comparing a novice dog owner with
competing demands on his time and efforts with someone who's
chosen to dedicate him/herself to a demanding dog sport and
a high level of dog training?
--
Melinda Shore - Software longa, hardware brevis - sh...@panix.com
The Free Enterprise Action Fund, a GOP mutual fund, is
underperforming the S&P 500 by about 40%.
Janet B
clicked their heels and said:
> I mean, c'mon - comparing a novice dog owner with
>competing demands on his time and efforts with someone who's
>chosen to dedicate him/herself to a demanding dog sport and
>a high level of dog training?
agreed. Even if "Jan" is for real (but for the record, there's a long
18 years between 72 and 90 yo, so I still think something's
fishy......), the point of making a comparison is very off the mark
and very unfair.
--
Janet Boss
www.bestfriendsdogobedience.com
Janet B
clicked their heels and said:
>
>I don't see anything wrong with that. Verbage changes over the years,and
>this person may well have changed with the times.
sure. maybe. they are using webtv after all. Call me skeptical, but
these "new" posters (most who I recognize from their AOL personas -
Ronna sent them all over here to check things out), especially those
ONLY commenting on this particular topic, are just a little curious.
--
Janet Boss
www.bestfriendsdogobedience.com
FurPaw
> On Sat, 14 Oct 2006 14:58:17 GMT, "pfoley" <pfo...@hotmail.com>,
> clicked their heels and said:
>
>> I love that story, and wonderfully written.
Ditto.
> as fiction? Many things don't add up about 45 years ago. "I was INTO
> Schutzhund". How many 90 year olds phrase things that way?
That, by itself, isn't a reason for disbelief. Despite my best
intentions, I, at 58, occasionally hear myself saying "exact
same" and "I am SO not _______." Neither phrasing was in vogue
in my youth, but being "into" something was common usage in the
late 1960s. Let's see, that was nearly 40 years ago, when the
poster was just over fifty. Yeah, "into" is a possibility.
Exact same. So.
FurPaw (still successfully resisting nucular, relator and ax)
--
"None of us is as smart as all of us."
Oh yeah? None of us is as stupid as all of us, either.
To reply, unleash the dog.
Paula
>Bouncer lived the remainder of his lengthy life in my back yard behind
>seven foot chain link fencing. He came in the house with me when I was
>home.
>
>During his life with me he killed a hapless cat who somehow foolishly
>scaled that fence and entered his yard.
This is one of Paul's great concerns. He doesn't want his beloved cat
to become a target.
>
>Bouncer loved me and I loved him. I remember him so well after all these
>years .
I'm glad you were able to make things work out with Bouncer.
I also had a Muttley. I've posted before about my Diva. She had
never bitten a person, but she had shown aggression toward some of
them. She had attacked dogs. I took her to expensive private
training and also worked with her extensively at home. I was not
working away from home at the time, so I had lots of time and energy
to put into her training and management. I had lots of help from the
trainers who had worked with her and a good friend who had been the
only male she didn't react to even when she was at her worst. She was
able to go out and about as long as she was under control. She even
learned to get along with and play with the other dogs in our
household, though I didn't leave them alone together when I was not at
home because I never was completely sure something wouldn't set her
off or that setting her off wouldn't mean an attack instead of just
some snarking. I loved her to death. She was a heart dog, not just a
rescue dog. But I could never have given her a good life if I had
been in Paul's situation. She would have been miserable out in the
backyard all day. Her short dalmatian coat wasn't as protective as a
GSD coat for being outside and her personality wasn't suited to
backyard living, either, even if she could come in when I was home. It
all depends on the dog and the owner's situation. If things had been
different in my situation at the time, I would have had to put Diva
down. If I hadn't had the resources for the private training and the
time to work with her and keep an eye on her and be with her so much
that she really bonded to me and learned to relax and let me decide
what needed to be attacked and what didn't, it would have been better
to put her down than to hang on to her and keep her in a life she
would have hated and that could have cost me the lives of other
animals in my household or injury to my children.
If Paul has to work, has to keep his cat safe, doesn't have the money
for private training from trainers who specialize in aggressive dogs,
and isn't physically up to the size and strength Muttley has to stop
him if he does get it into his head to attack some animal or someone,
I am not going to fault him for not doing what I did. I know I was
lucky to have the time and money and circumstances and a dog that
responded. It wasn't that I was a better person, just a person in a
better situation when that dog came along and who was landed with a
dog that was easier to control and harder to set off in the meantime.
--
Paula
"Anyway, other people are weird, but sometimes they have candy,
so it's best to try to get along with them." Joe Bay
janu...@webtv.net
apology to Paul if he interpreted my words as unkind.
I resent being called a liar because my story is true. However, I
understand the anger at my reference to Muttley although it was not my
intention to make a comparison.
I had read the Muttley thread from start to finish and found a great
similarity between Muttley and my Bouncer. This prompted a flood of
memories and because I am a writer, a story happenned.
Yes, I use WEBTV. I read newsgroups and use email. I don't need a
computor unless I fear snide remarks, which I don't.
I am young for my years. I still write professionally. In my youth I was
a jazz musician and I still play a bit. I hang out with people much
younger than myself which probably affects my lifestyle as well as my
vocabulary.
If you are visualizing a little old lady sitting in a rocking chair
crocheting doilies, forget it!
Best wishes to all of you, and bless you for loving dogs.
Jan
Paul E. Schoen
<janu...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:23364-45...@storefull-3331.bay.webtv.net...
Thank you for your well written story. I recognize and appreciate your
facility with the English language, which is often so lacking in newsgroup
posts and emails, especially when written by younger people. It was also
suggested to me that I write a story about Muttley, and in a way, I have.
He will be forever immortalized in the archives of Google, and your dog
Bouncer is now also a fixture in Cyberspace as a lasting memorial.
I am still fighting to keep Muttley alive, and I have been given a modicum
of hope from one local behaviorist who believes that his errant behavior
may be corrected so that he might possibly learn to accept my cat and
socialize safely with other dogs. His fee of about $500 for four one-on-one
lessons is a chunk of change, but I would gladly spend it if I could be
convinced that it would work, and that I (or someone else) could provide
the lifetime commitment that he needs. I would probably be remiss if I
rigidly held to my announced schedule to have him euthanized this
Wednesday, if there were a reasonable chance that he could be kept alive
and not pose a danger to others.
It is good that you clarified your identity and truthfulness in the face of
skepticism and unfair assumptions based on your stated age. Many people
have apparently labeled me as a rickety cripple and wimp that can't hold
onto the leash of a powerful 75 pound dog. I regularly play volleyball and
hike, in spite of an injured knee and a congenital back problem, and that
just limits my ability to run and give Muttley that form of exercise. I
have explained that the only time I lost control of the leash was due to my
being in an unbalanced position that was taught to me, if not by Janet,
then by one of her instructors. I regret that this single accident has
caused my wonderful dog to be labeled as dangerous, which puts me in such a
precarious position of liability.
I have met a lot of people as a result of my sojourn on this and other
newsgroups, and I appreciate the fact that almost everyone here loves dogs
and other animals, and have much good advice to help newcomers as well as
those with more experience. Of course, there are also those who are more
lacking in people skills, as evidenced by some of the petty exchanges and
uninformed criticisms. I have tried to be level-headed, truthful, and
open-minded in my posts and responses. It seems that my detailed story
about Muttley has opened up many informative dialogs, which I hope will
help others avoid similar misfortune.
Paul, Muttley and Photon
Robin Nuttall
The person writing the article didn't, IMO write like a 90 year old but
I could be wrong about that. However, 45 years ago schutzhund training
was extremely rare in this country. I can't find any evidence of
schutzhund as an organized sport in this country as early as 1961 when
this tale supposedly happened. The earliest I've heard is the mid-late
1970s. The USA club dates back to the 70s, DVG mid-1980s. NASA was
before that, but is so mostly forgotten that I can't find much in the
way of reference to it except on Ed Frawley's site. I don't think NASA
was ever really that widespread. So where was this person doing
schutzhund training? And why would ANY trainer of ANY grab a dog for
such a minor reason and shake him around like that?
I agree--pretty story, but doesn't sound factual.
Prettie...@muchomail.com
<janu...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:23392-45...@storefull-3338.bay.webtv.net...
>
> It was around 45 years ago.
Ahhh, that's just abHOWET when The Sincerely Incredibly
Freakin Insanely Simply Amazing Grand Puppy, Child, Pussy,
Birdy And Horsey Wizard began professionally trainin mostly
giant breed workin dogs, specializing in temperamet and behavior
problems <{): ~ ) >
> I am now 90 years old and have had dogs almost all of my llfe.
Yeah. You're a real dog lover JUST LIKE paulie <{): ~ ) >
> Most of them were GSDs. A few mixes, some purebreds
> purchased from breeders, many, many, many rescues.
The Sincerely Incredibly Freakin Insanely Simply Amazing
Grand Puppy, Child, Pussy, Birdy And Horsey Wizard's
breeds are Great Danes an English Mastiffs <{): ~ ) >
> I was not looking for a dog when I found Bouncer. I was a
> journalist and each week I visited the local pound to photograph
> an adoptable pet and to write hopefully helpful words for the others.
The so called shelter / rescue movement is in large part, a SCAM,
January98 <{}: ~ ( >
You want a couple REAL GOOD DOGGY STORIES, January98?
Like WHO MURDERED Jessica Lundren?
Like WHO MURDERED Dianne Whipple?
Like HOWE COME the SAR dogs CAN'T FIND VICTIMS
with known startin points like Elizabeth Smart of a dead
body despite havin a MAP like in the case of Chandra Levy?
Like WHO MURDERED them three DEAD BOYS in
the trunk of the car in New Jersey?
Like HOWE COME that K-9 officer and his K-0 dog got
MURDERED trackin a known subject and the backup
"k-0" teams COULDN'T FIND THE PERPERTRATOR
hiding 300' from the shootin site, for 24 HOWERS, January98???
WE CAN PROVE HOWE COME THOSE K-9's FAILED.
They FAILED for the SAME REASON you and paulie
FAILED your RESCUE DOGS, despite your berautiful
story of FAILED REHABILITATION, ABUSE and CONfinement.
> There were numerous pens crowded with canines,
> but Bouncer was in solitary confinement.
That's normal.
> In my eyes he was magnificent. An old fashioned GSD,
> obviously from German working dog lines. Oversized.
> Straight back.
Good enough.
> " What a great dog!" I exclaimed as I started towards
> him with my camera ready.
>
> " No", said the attendant. " He's not a great dog. He's
> very aggressive. He fights any and all dogs. He is oblivious
> to humans. Untrainable. He'll be put down. Who would want him?"
That's NORMAL for HOWER DOG LOVERS, January98:
"Granted That The Dog Who Fears Retribution
Will Adore His Owner," lying "I LOVE KOEHLER"
lynn.
lyinglynn writes to a new foster care giver:
For barking in the crate - leave the leash on and
pass it through the crate door. Attach a line to
it. When he barks, use the line for a correction.-
if necessary, go to a citronella bark collar," Lynn K.
"Training is not confrontation,"Lynn K.
<except when it is>
"Unfortunately, some confrontation is necessary,
just to be able to handle the dogs. For example,
we need to crate train a dog immediately because
they are usually in need of medical care and they
are in foster homes with other dogs. It's a safety
necessity," lying "I LOVE KOEHLER" lynn.
"Training is not confrontation,"Lynn K.
<except when it is>
"So what? Whoever said that it's right to
always not confront? We sure can try, but
a dog who knows a command and growls when
given it is certainly being confrontational".
You can't simply walk away and pretend it
didn't happen or leave it for later work in
every situation." Lynn K.
--------------------
"I used to work the Kill Room as a volunteer in
one shelter.) But their ability to set their own
schedules and duties causes a great deal of
scheduling overhead.
And it takes effort and thought to ensure that
volunteers get the meaningful experience that
they work for.
Someone has to be responsible for that
Volunteer Program, and it is best done
by a non-volunteer."
Lynn K.
----------------
"I worked with one shelter where I bathed and groomed
every adoptable dog on intake. I frankly felt that the
effort/benefit equation was not balanced for some of the
older/ill poodle/terrier mixes we got in badly matted condition.
Should I have refused to groom them?
Or even more pertinent - I was one of the people who
had to make the euthanasia decisions at that shelter."
Lynn K.
<java...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1157490645.3...@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
> lgohr...@hotmail.com wrote:
> Have any of you ever come across a dog, that you
> know there is just no hope for? The dog is untrainable.
Unfortunately, many times. It's usually not that the dog is
untrainable. Usually it's a case where the dog is so dangerous
that someone is going to be hurt before trainng can take effect.
A couple of case studies:
1. Last Friday I was called in to evaluate a 2 yr old Ridgeback/Boxer
coming out of quarantine from putting 9 stitches into a little girl's
face. Genetic temperament extremely fearful, spatial issues, head
and hand shy, could only be approached by the owner, no bite
inhibition.
The owner is a single mother with 3 kids, a chaotic household and a
full time job. Realistically, the dog could improve but would always
have limitations and need constant direction and supervision, All I
could do is tell the owner what could be done and what effort it would
take. She had to come to the conclusion herself that she wasn't up to
the task and that the end result wouldn't be good enough.
2. A newly adopted Boxer, very dog aggressive. While evaluating
him, I deliberately stepped between him and the dog he was reacting
to. He slipped his collar and bit me to the bone. The owners
couldn't
safely handle him and he couldn't be placed into another home because
of known liability.
He was returned to the breed rescue group to be pts.
3. Dax, a well-bred gsd, was untouchable at 7weeks old.
***(lying "I LOVE KOEHLER" lynn TRAINED Dax since DAY WON)
The owner was a very capable and experienced gsd person
who made her living as a dogwalker/petsitter. I worked with
him for 9 months, and he was also seen by Leslie Nelson,
Trish King, Ian Dunbar, Jean Donaldson, and others.
In that time we worked through 7 different aggression
triggers, which were all immediately replaced by a new
one.
Neurological causes were suspected and tested, inconclusively.
He was the last born of the litter, after a stillborn, unformed fetus.
There was also an incident at 5 wks where a crate collapsed onto
him, with short unconsciousness.
His last bite was during an EEG, which showed
wildly abnormal brain patterns. It was time for
his dedicated owner to give up and let him go.
4. Last month I refused to work with a young pit bull in
foster care and had to tell the rescue group he was dangerous
and unadoptable.
My training partner, a former K9 officer refused to even
take the dog's leash because it would be pointless.
Totally unbonded to humans, he was also dog aggressive
and ready to come back up the leash at anyone who stopped
him from his target.
He would have been workable if he had a strong, experiienced handler.
***(like janet boss or herself...)
But the rescue group was particularly inept and the foster
home was worse - mother in leg braces and autistic teenage
son, both with bad physical skills, no experience, no emotional
control.
They've decided that all will be fixed by a Gentle Leader.
Cases 5 through 100 - all with sad details, all variable. I get an
average of 5 new aggression cases a week and anyone who thinks
that everything can be fixed needs to spend some time with us to
see the great variety of dogs and situatiions that presents.
Most can be turned around, but not all.
Lynn K.
"Amy Dahl" <a...@oakhillkennel.com> wrote in message
news:44FDF340...@oakhillkennel.com...
> java...@yahoo.com wrote:
>> 2. A newly adopted Boxer, very dog aggressive.
This is utterly beyond my experience, and very scary.
I received a fairly bad bite, once, from a dog that, I
recognized later, was competely measured and controlled
in what he did.
I have observed many times the great control and
discrimination dogs have over what they do with
their mouths.
A dog in which those mechanisms aren't working
would scare me silly.
Lynn, you and some of the people you work
with are phenomenally dedicated.
Amy Dahl
=============
THOSE ARE THE PSYCHOPATHS GIVIN ADVICE
an MURDERIN "RESCUED DOGS", Jan <{}: ~ ( >
> " I do!" I replied.
LikeWIZE, January98 <{}: ~ ) >
> They agreed to hold him for a few days. Each afternoon
> I visited and talked to Bouncer through the cage door.
> On the third day he approached and acknowledged me.
>
> I went to my car to obtain a leash and returned to the shelter,
> leaving the car door open.
>
> " I think we're ready," I told the attendant.
>
> I led Bouncer out into the yard and when we approached
> my car I asked him:" Do you want to go home with me?"
>
> He tugged on the leash. I dropped the leash. He leaped into the car.
> I already had two dogs and several cats. Bouncer went
> into his own private pen temporarily but in a few days
> was sharing the entire large fenced yard with a spayed
> female adult GSD and a younger male with no problem.
Of curse. Dogs train EZ an FAST if you DON'T ABUSE THEM.
> I was into Schutzhund at that time, so asked one of the
> instructors to evaluate Bouncer, advising him of the
> unknown past and aggressive behavior in the pound.
> Bouncer was pronounced okay for basic obedience class,
Since when might a dog NOT BE O.K. for OBEDIENCE TRAININ???
> so we proceeded to enroll. His dog aggressiveness flourished,
INDEEDY. On accHOWENT of you was JERKIN an CHOKIN
IT JUST LIKE HOWE paulie been doin to his "RESCUE DOG"
Muttley whom he's fixin to MURDER THIS WEEK thanks to
followin the INSTRUCTION of a pathetic miserable stinkin
lyi animal murderin active acute chronic long term incurable
mental case.
> but I could control him.
No you couldn't. You jerked an choked an intmidated
him under the EXXXXPERT INSTRUCTION of a
PSYCHOPATH, JUST LIKE HOWE THESE PATHETIC
MISERABLE STINKIN LYIN ANIMAL MURDERIN
MENTAL CASES PREFER.
LIKE THIS:
"You Lying Sack Of Dung.When Have I Ever Said
Anything About Using A Prong Collar, Or Any Collar
Correction At All, To Make Dogs Friendly To House
Cats? Don't bother. The answer is never," lying "I
LOVE KOEHLER" lynn.
lying "I LOVE KOEHLER" lynn writes about kats and dogs:
"This Article Is Something We've Put Together
For SF GSD Rescue
From: Lynn Kosmakos (lkosma...@home.com)
Subject: Re: I have a dog he has cats
Date: 1999/11/20
ginge...@my-deja.com wrote:
> How can I get him to quit chasing the cats.
Okay - this is going to be a bit loooong - Lynn K.
"Put a prong collar with a six-foot leash on the dog. Don't
forget to put the muzzle on the dog. I think a prong works
better than a choke with less chance of injury to the dog in
this situation.
Electronics can be used to create an aversion to cats, but
should be used under the direction of a trainer who knows how
to instruct the owner in their proper use. Electronics can
take the form of shock, sonic or citronella collars. At that
time the owner will train with electronics instead of food or
whatever other reward system was being used."
8) Put a prong collar with a six-foot leash on the dog.
Don't forget to put the muzzle on the dog. I think a prong
works better than a choke with less chance of injury to the
dog in this situation. Have the dog in a sit-stay next to
you with most of the slack out of the leash and let the cat
walk through the room and up to the dog if it wishes (this is
why you have the dog muzzled).
If the dog makes an aggressive move towards the
cat, it must be corrected strongly with both your
voice and the collar.
This is important - the correction must be physically
very strong - not a nag. (PS: not many dogs need
to be corrected at all)."
Baghdad Bob <Baghdadbob> wrote in message
<news:04591a2c5d469ef78d35c89ed4ed58f7@TeraNews>...
Lynn, looks like he got you there if these
quotes are true.
In the posts below you take responsibility for
making those calls.
In your post above, you state you do not
make those calls.
Which one is it?
WORDS OF WISDOM
From Our Own Lynn Kosmakos
1200mg Of Lithium And 50 mg Of Zoloft
EVERY DAY
For Twenty Years
I THINK I'M QUALIFIED TO TALK ABOUT LITHIUM
"I, too, have a bi-polar mood disorder (manic-
depression) requiring 1200mg of lithium and 50
mg of Zoloft every day.
I, also, care about dogs and use this forum to
learn more, while happily sharing pertinent
information I have learned. But if I were ever
to post such sh*t, I would hope that every other
reader of this group would be rightfully outraged."
"Community is an evolutionary thing that we
earn the right to participate in by observing
the easily understood rules and contributing
to in constructive ways."
"It wasn't that meds didn't work for her
- she wouldn't take them. I particularly remember
a comment she made about scarey side effects of
Lithium. Hardly. After 17 years on it, I think
I'm qualified to say that the very low risk of
any side effect is far less frightening than the
very real dangers of life without it."
Lynn K.
------------------------------
> The instructor advised a prong collar and I followed that advice.
THAT'S INSANE.
> Soon after that Bouncer was showing aggression in class
Naaaah?
Oh, you mean JUST LIKE HOWE paulie's DEAD DOG
Muttley OBJECTED to bein jerked an choked on janet's
pronged spiked pinch choke collar, Jan?
Oh, you don't mind The Sincerely Incredibly Freakin Insanely
Simply Amazing Grand Puppy, Child, Pussy, Birdy And Horsey
Wizard addressin you in the familial 'Jan', do you? And you of
curse, may likeWIZE address The Sincerely Incredibly Freakin
Insanely Simply Amazing Grand Puppy, Child, Pussy, Birdy
And Horsey Wizard in the familial, "The", O.K.?
NHOWE it FEELS like we been PALS for forty five years, don't it, Jan???
> and although I had him under control the instructor said:
> " Let me take him."
Ahhh, JUST LIKE HOWE janet done to Muttley, eh Jan???
> She took the leash and proceeded to jerk him
> from side to side while yelling at him.
Ahhh yes, RESCUE DOGS LOVE THAT!
> After three or four hard jerks, Bouncer lunged at her
> and bit her, tearing a gash in the arm that held the leash.
He was just showin his APPRECIATION for her DEMONstration
of UNCONDITIONAL LOVE TRUST an RESPECT, the nitty
gritty behind ALL EFFECTIVE SCIENTIFIC behavior modification:
Sam Corson, Pavlov's Last Student Demonstrated At
UofOH, That Rehabilitation Of Hyperactive Dogs Can
Easily And Readily Be Done Using TLC. Tender Loving
Care Is At The Root Of The Scientific Management Of
Doggys. <{) ; ~ ) >
"...all the highest nervous activity, as it manifests
itself in the conditional reflex, consists of a continual
change of these three fundamental processes --
excitation, inhibition and disinhibition," Ivan P. Pavlov
"Postitive emotions arising in connection
with the perfection of a skill, irrespective
of its pragmatic significance at a given
moment, serve as the reinforcement. IOW,
emotions, not outside rewards, are what
reinforces any behavior," Ivan Pavlov.
"All animals learn best through play." -- Konrad Lorenz
"Despite Skinner's clear denunciation of "negative
reinforcement" (1958) NEARLY EVER LEARNING THEORY
model involves the USE OF PUNISHMENT. Of curse,
Skinner has never to my knowledge, demonstrated
HOWE we escape the phenomenon that an expected
reward not received is experienced as a punishment
and can produce extensive and persistent aggression
(Azrin et al, 1966)."
"The IMBECILITY of some of the claims for operant
technique simply take the breath away. Lovas et al
(1966) report a standard contingent reward/punishment
procedure developing imitative speech in two severly
disturbed non verbal schizophrenic boys. After twenty-
six days the boys are reported to have been learning
new words with alacrity. HOWEver, when REWARDS
were moved to a delayed contingency the behavior and
learning immediately deteriorated."
"It is NO WONDER that the marked changes in
deviant behavior of children can be achieved
through brief, simple educative routines with
their mothers which modify the mother's social
behaviors shaping the child (Whaler, 1966). Some
clinics have reported ELIMINATION ofthe need for
child THERAPY through changing the clinical emphasis
from clinical to parental HANDLING of the child
(Szrynski 1965).
A large number of cases improved sufficiently after
preliminary contact with parents that NO treatment
of children was required, and almost ALL cases
SHOWE a remarkably shortened period for therapy.
Quite severe cases of anorexia nervosa have been
treated in own to five months by simply REPLACING
the parents temporarily with EFFUSIVELY LOVING
SUBSTITUTES (Groen, 1966)."
The Methods, Principles And Philosophy Of Behavior
Never Change,
Or They'd Not Be Scientific
And Could Not Obtain
Consistent, Reliable, Fast, Effective, Safe Results
For All Handler's And All Critters,
And ALL Behaviors
In ALL FIELDS And ALL UTILITIES,
ALL OVER The Whole Wild World,
NEARLY INSTANTLY,
As Taught In Your FREE Copy Of The Sincerely Incredibly
Freakin Insanely Simply Amazing
GRAND
Puppy, Child, Pussy, Birdy And Horsey Wizard's
100% CONSISTENTLY NEARLY INSTANTLY SUCCESSFUL
FREE
WWW Wits'End Dog, Child, Kat And Horse Training Method Manual
<{} ; ~ ) >
> I immediately retrieved my dog while others attended to the wound.
Please EXXXCUSE The Sincerely Incredibly Freakin Insanely
Simply Amazing Grand Puppy, Child, Pussy, Birdy And Horsey
Wizard for just WON moment: BWEEEEEEAAAAHAHAHAAA!!!
Thanks, Jan, I NEEDED THAT <{): ~ ) >
Sometimse 'Humor Is The Beast Medecine'.
AIN'T IT <{); ~ ) >
> With Bouncer in the back seat of my car and the wounded
> instructor just ahead of him in the front seat I drove her to a doctor.
BWEEEEEEEEEEAAHAHAHAHAHAAAAA!!!
Pardone moi, eh Jan <{}: ~ ( >
Did she make YOU PAY for the damages like HOWE janet
done to paulie when her abuse caused Muttley to attack the
other dog, a behavior which had pryor been TOTALLY HOWET
OF CHARACTER for him, Jan?
> There were no repercussiions, no lawsuits, no hard feelings.
You mean she didn't recommend you MURDER Bouncer
like HOWE janet done to paulie and his RESCUE DOG
Muttley, whom she DIDN'T GET TO MURDER when
palie first brought him to her SHELTER to find him a
new HOWES on accHOWENT of he couldn't TRAIN
him to love his kat Photon, Jan?
> She took the blame.
Naaaaah? You mean, on accHOWENT of she was IN
CON-TROLL of the class and anything happenin in it?
> Euthenasia was never mentioned.
You mean, she wasn't a paranoid shizophrene like janet an paulie?
You'll NOTICE janet NEVER suggested Muttley COULD
BE TRAINED to LOVE his kat Photo, Jan. She was "TRAININ"
Muttley so IT could be well enough behaved to get hisself a
NEW HOWES withHOWET a kat in it <{): ~ ( >
> Bouncer lived the remainder of his lengthy life
UNLIKE Muttley, Jan. Muttley GOTTA DIE on
accHOWENT of janet an paulie HURTIN him.
> in my back yard behind seven foot chain link fencing.
> He came in the house with me when I was home.
Was you havin a PROBLEM for TRAININ him, Jan?
PERHAPS had you NOT JERKED an CHOKED him
he'd settle right DHOWEN and RELAXXX and ENJOY
livin in your HOWES with your family, LIKE ANY DOG.
Or kat, for that matter, Jan <{) : ~ ) >
> During his life with me he killed a hapless cat
> who somehow foolishly scaled that fence and
> entered his yard.
Dogs MURDER kats HOWEtside on accHOWENT of
they been PUNISHED for tryin to attack kats INSIDE.
You'll find THOWESANDS of EXXXACTLY PRECISELY
SIMILAR CASE HISTORIES RIGHT HERE in The Sincerely
Incredibly Freakin Insanely Simply Amazing Grand Puppy, Child,
Pussy, Birdy And Horsey Wizard's 100% CONSISTENTLY NEARLY INSTANTLY
SUCCESSFUL FREE WWW Wits' End Dog, Child,
Kat And Horse Training Method Manual Forums AND Human And
Animal Behavior Forensic Sciences Research Laboratory AND
COLLEGE OF HARD KNOCKXXX <{) ; ~ ) >
> Bouncer loved me and I loved him.
INDEEDY! OtherWIZE you wouldn't of JERKED an CHOKED
him till he WENT INSANE JUST LIKE HOWE Muttley done.
> I remember him so well after all these years .
INDEEDY. Seems like The Sincerely Incredibly Freakin Insanely
Simply Amazing Grand Puppy, Child, Pussy, Birdy And Horsey
Wizard KNOWS Bouncer PERSONALLY <{): ~ ( >
Could be, Bouncer hired The Sincerely Incredibly Freakin Insanely
Simply Amazing Grand Puppy, Child, Pussy, Birdy And Horsey
Wizard to WHACK YOU HOWET for HURTIN him, eh Jan???
> And yes, I now have a dog. An oversize, straight backed
> Rescue GSD whose life expectancy is similar to mine.
Are you still HURTIN YOUR DOG, Jan?
> Jan
Oh, bye the bye, WELCOME to The Sincerely Incredibly Freakin
Insanely Simply Amazing Grand Puppy, Child, Pussy, Birdy And
Horsey Wizard's 100% CONSISTENTLY NEARLY INSTANTLY
SUCCESSFUL FREE WWW Wits' End Dog, Child, Kat And
Horse Training Method Manual Forums <{); ~ ) >
I'm Jerry Howe, The Sincerely Incredibly Freakin Insanely Simply
Amazing Grand Puppy, Child, Pussy, Birdy And Horsey Wizard <{) ; ~ ) >
Here's your own FREE COPY of The Sincerely Incredibly Freakin
Insanely Simply Amazing Grand Puppy, Child, Pussy, Birdy And
Horsey Wizard's
The *666* Edition Of Your Own
FREE COPY
Of
The Sincerely Incredibly Freakin Insanely Simply Amazing
GRAND
Puppy, Child, Pussy, Birdy And Horsey Wizard's
100% CONSISTENTLY NEARLY INSTANTLY SUCCESSFUL
FREE WWW
Wits' End Dog, Child, Kat And Horsey Training Method Manual <{) ; ~ )
>
<{#}: ~ } >8< { ~ :{@}>
<{#}: ~ } > < { ~ :{@}>
<{#}: ~ } > < { ~ :{@}>
<{#}: ~ } > http://makeashorterlink.com/?K3AD21A3D < { ~ :{@}>
<{#}: ~ } > < { ~ :{@}>
<{#}: ~ } > < { ~ :{@}>
<{#}: ~ } >8< { ~ :{@}>
The_Insanely_Freakin_Simply...@hotmail.com
"Paul E. Schoen" <pst...@smart.net> wrote in message
news:4531cd62$0$2536$ecde...@news.coretel.net...
>
> <janu...@webtv.net> wrote in message
> news:23364-45...@storefull-3331.bay.webtv.net...
>> My sincere apologies to all who were irritated by my post,
>> and a special apology to Paul if he interpreted my words as
>> unkind.
That's curiHOWES seein as Jan had THE SAME PROBLEMO
for the SAME REASON, ain't it, paulie <{): ~ ( >
>> I resent being called a liar because my story is true.
Well THAT'S the PREDICTABLE RESULT of talkin
with pathetic miserable stinkin lyin animal murderin
active acute chronic long term incurable mental cases,
WOULDN'T YOU AGREE, paulie, based of curse on
your own REAL LIFE IN PERSON EXXXPERIENCE
HURTIN INTIMIDATIN an MURDERIN your own
DEAD "RESCUE DOG" Muttley???
Perhaps the KINDEST thing you can do is just RELEASE
the poor dog so's maybe he'll find someWON who AIN'T
a pathetic miserable stinkin lyin animal murderin active
acute chronic long term incurable mental case, eh paulie?
>> However, I understand the anger at my reference to
>> Muttley although it was not my intention to make a
>> comparison.
Well that's QUEER, AIN'T IT, paulie, seein as Jan an you
GOT THE SAME PROBLEM for the SAME REASON.
ONLY DIFFERENCE is, Jan AIN'T a pathetic miserable
stinkin lyin dog murderin COWARD like you and your
punk thug mental case pals who HURT INTIMDIATE an
MURDER innocent defenseless dumb critters an TRY to
GET HOWET CALLIN THAT, "RESCUE", eh paulie?
>> I had read the Muttley thread from start to finish and
>> found a great similarity between Muttley and my Bouncer.
INDEEDY. They're IDENTICAL, AIN'T THEY, paulie.
EXXXCEPT FOR WON THING, paulie: Jan DIDN'T HAVE
The Sincerely Incredibly Freakin Insanely Simply Amazing
Grand Puppy, Child, Pussy, Birdy And Horsey Wizard's 100% CONSISTENTLY
NEARLY INSTANTLY SUCCESSFUL
FREE WWW Wits' End Dog, Child, Kat And Horse Training
Method Manual and all the FREE IN PERSON REAL LIFE
ADVICE of The Sincerely Incredibly Freakin Insanely Simply
Amazing Grand Puppy, Child, Pussy, Birdy And Horsey
Wizard like HOWE you got and REFUSED in order to HURT
INTIMIDATE an MURDER your own RESCUE DOG Muttley.
>> This prompted a flood of memories and because
>> I am a writer, a story happenned.
Yeah. If you want the REAL STORY you'll FIND IT ALL
in The Sincerely Incredibly Freakin Insanely Simply Amazing
Grand Puppy, Child, Pussy, Birdy And Horsey Wizard's Human
And Animal Behavior Forensic Sciences Research Laboratory
Archives on Google and other fine, pubic, unmoderated usenet
news group archive search engines <{}: ~ ) >
>> Yes, I use WEBTV. I read newsgroups and use email.
>> I don't need a computor unless I fear snide remarks,
>> which I don't.
WE'LL SEE if Jan REPLIES to The Sincerely Incredibly
Freakin Insanely Simply Amazing Grand Puppy, Child,
Pussy, Birdy And Horsey Wizard <{): ~ ) >
THAT ALWAYS PROVES the poster's INTENT.
>> I am young for my years. I still write professionally. In my
>> youth I was a jazz musician and I still play a bit. I hang out
>> with people much younger than myself which probably affects
>> my lifestyle as well as my vocabulary.
Perhaps Jan will study his ownown FREE COPY of The Sincerely
Incredibly Freakin Insanely Simply Amazing Grand Puppy, Child,
Pussy, Birdy And Horsey Wizard's
The *666* Edition Of Your Own
FREE COPY
Of
The Sincerely Incredibly Freakin Insanely Simply Amazing
GRAND
Puppy, Child, Pussy, Birdy And Horsey Wizard's
100% CONSISTENTLY NEARLY INSTANTLY SUCCESSFUL
FREE WWW
Wits' End Dog, Child, Kat And Horsey Training Method Manual <{) ; ~ )
>
<{#}: ~ } >8< { ~ :{@}>
<{#}: ~ } > < { ~ :{@}>
<{#}: ~ } > < { ~ :{@}>
<{#}: ~ } > http://makeashorterlink.com/?K3AD21A3D < { ~ :{@}>
<{#}: ~ } > < { ~ :{@}>
<{#}: ~ } > < { ~ :{@}>
<{#}: ~ } >8< { ~ :{@}>
and tell us what he thinks of EFFECTIVE NON PHYSICAL
SCIENTIFIC and PSYCHOLOGICAL Pavlovian and
Ericksonial conditionin techniques Vs HURTIN an INTIMIDATIN
an MURDERIN innocent defenseless dumb critters like HOWE
you been taugh, eh paulie???
BWEEEEAHAHAHAHAHHAAAAA!!!
>> If you are visualizing a little old lady sitting in a
>> rocking chair crocheting doilies, forget it!
Perhaps Jan will have enough INTEREST in a STORY
to READ THE CASE HISTORY DATA QUOTED BY
The Sincerely Incredibly Freakin Insanely Simply Amazing
Grand Puppy, Child, Pussy, Birdy And Horsey Wizard
which IDENTIFIES EXXXPOSES and DISCREDITS
these pathetic miserable stinkin lyin animla murderin
child abusin punk thug coward active acute chronic
long term incurable mental cases like yourself, eh paulie?
>> Best wishes to all of you, and bless you for loving dogs.
Oh, INDEEDY! And BEST WISHES to Muttley <{}: ~ ( >
>> Jan
>
> Thank you for your well written story.
CAN YOU SEE HOWE HURTIN DOGS MAKES THEM INSANE, paulie?
> I recognize and appreciate your facility with the English language,
We was talkin abHOWET jerkin an chokin dogs on pronged
spiked pinch choke collars an MURDERIN them for bein
AFRAID. REMEMBER paulie?
> which is often so lacking in newsgroup posts and emails,
INDEEDY!
Some folks just don't know HOWE to be NICE, eh paulie?
> especially when written by younger people.
Yeah. Blame young people, eh paulie?
> It was also suggested to me that I write a story about Muttley,
You DID, you freakin imbecile <{}: ~ ( >
> and in a way, I have.
INDEED. THAT'S CALLED FORENSIC EVIDENCE, paulie.
> He will be forever immortalized in the archives of Google,
INDEEDY. In The Sincerely Incredibly Freakin Insanely Simply
Amazing Grand Puppy, Child, Pussy, Birdy And Horsey Wizard's
Human And Animal Behavior Forensic Sciences Research Laboratory
Archives for the WHOWEL WILD WORLD to RIDICULE and MOCK
for the next THOWESAND YEARS, paulie <{}: ~ ( >
Your CASE HISTORY will be EXXXAMINED an STUDIED
by psychiatric, psychology and ethology students ALL OVER
the WHOWEL WILD WORLD long after we're ALL dead an
buried <{}: ~ ) >
> and your dog Bouncer is now also a fixture in
> Cyberspace as a lasting memorial.
Yeah, it DOES VERIFY EVERYTHING you and janet
the pathetic miserable stinkin lyin animal murderin mental
case done to hurt intimidate an murder your own DEAD
RESCUER DOG Muttley.
Perhaps you should LEAVE "RESCUE DOGS" ALONE
to fend for themselves where AT LEAST they'd have a
CHANCE of LIVIN so long as a RESCUER don't come
along to HEELP by MURDERIN them, eh dog lovers?
> I am still fighting to keep Muttley alive,
That so, paulie? You're still lookin to HURT an INTIMDIATE Muttley.
> and I have been given a modicum of hope
That so, paulie?
> from one local behaviorist who believes that his errant behavior
> may be corrected so that he might possibly learn to accept my
> cat and socialize safely with other dogs.
BWEEEEAAHAHAHAHHAHAAAAA!!!
You don't need a "EXXXPERT BEHAVIORIST" paulie.
The Sincerely Incredibly Freakin Insanely Simply Amazing
Grand Puppy, Child, Pussy, Birdy And Horsey Wizard has
DISCREDITED the entire industry of dog trainin and behaviorism.
> His fee of about $500 for four one-on-one lessons is a
> chunk of change, but I would gladly spend it if I could
> be convinced that it would work,
Yeah? HOWEver, you WON'T TRY NOT HURTIN Muttley FOR FREE.
IS THAT INSANE, paulie? No, that's NORMAL for a dog an
child abusin pathetic miserable stinkin animal murderin mental
case with a colossal inferiority complex, weak fearful mind and
defective ego, paulie <{): ~ ( >
BLAME YOUR PARENTS for THAT.
> and that I (or someone else) could provide the
> lifetime commitment that he needs.
You mean CONSTANT JERKIN CHOKIN an MANAGEMENT.
> I would probably be remiss if I rigidly held to my announced
> schedule to have him euthanized this Wednesday,
HOWEver, YOU WILL paulie, on accHOWENT of THAT'S
YOUR HUMAN NATURE, the nature of a natural born coward.
OtherWIZE, you WOULDN'T OF HURT Muttley to begin with.
At least Jan HAD AN EXXXCUSE, there WASN'T NO
doGdameneD Sincerely Incredibly Freakin Insanely Simply
Amazing Grand Puppy, Child, Pussy, Birdy And Horsey
Wizard when he SAVED HIS RESCUE DOG Bumper <{): ~ ) >
YOU AIN'T GOT THAT EXXXCUSE, paulie.
You're nuthin but a pathtic miserable stinkin loser
lookin for like minded company, which you've
FHOWEN quite EZ on your own, and will do
and say ANYTHING to defend your abuse <{): ~ ( >
> if there were a reasonable chance that he could be kept alive
> and not pose a danger to others.
Oh. Well then paulie, all you gotta do is STOP HURTIN
an INTIMIDATIN him, would you BELIEVE <{}: ~ ( >
> It is good that you clarified your identity and truthfulness
> in the face of skepticism and unfair assumptions based
> on your stated age.
You mean by the pathetic miserable stinkin lyin animal
murderin mental cases who told you to HURT INTIMIDATE
an MURDER your "RESCUE DOG" Muttley?
> Many people have apparently labeled me as a rickety
> cripple and wimp that can't hold onto the leash of a
> powerful 75 pound dog.
Well THAT'S on accHOWENT of YOU DIDN'T
HURT HIM ENOUGH, paulie <{}: ~ ( >
> I regularly play volleyball and hike, in spite of an
> injured knee and a congenital back problem, and
> that just limits my ability to run and give Muttley
> that form of exercise.
Muttley DON'T NEED "EXXXORCISE" paulie, he
NEEDS YOU NOT TO HURT HIM someMOORE.
> I have explained that the only time I lost control of the leash
> was due to my being in an unbalanced position that was taught
> to me, if not by Janet, then by one of her instructors.
BWEEEAAAAHAHAHAHAHAAAA!!!
"J1Boss" <j1b...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040324071828...@mb-m18.aol.com...
> He was next to me and I could see his neck
> muscles pulsing. He didn't even blink an eye.
> Janet Boss
>
"sionnach" <rhyfe...@msn.com> wrote in message
news:c3qi15$2biuoh$1...@ID-45033.news.uni-berlin.de...
> "J1Boss" <j1b...@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:20040323173916...@mb-m17.aol.com...
> > > I can't imagine needing anything higher
> > > than a 5 with it, even with an insensitive
> > > dog like a Lab.
An INSENSITIVE DOG???
> > I can't remember what model of Innotek I have, but
> > I had a pointer ignore a neck-muscle-pulsing 9.
Here's janet's PARTNER:
"The actual quote is misleading when taken out of context"
sinofabitch writes:
> > What I have said- repeatedly - is that he
> > took posts from two different people,
> > took pieces of them out of context,
Of curse. QUOTED. You wanna see it in context?
> > cobbled them together,
No. There was WON DIRECT QUOTE.
> > then added his own words:
"Neatly," and "Smartly."
> > and a fake signature.
"sinofabitch" instead of sionnach.
> > Which is exactly what he did.
INDEEDY. That's HOWE COME you deny it.
> > The actual quote is misleading
That so?
> > when taken out of context,
We'd been talkin abHOWET beatin the dog with a shoe...
> > and Jerry's faked "quote"
The WON sinofabitch totally DENIES.
> > is downright meaningless.
Only if you're a MENTAL CASE.
Here's Jerry's version
"I Dropped The Leash, Threw My
Right Arm Over The Lab's Shoulder,
Grabbed Her Opposite Foot With My
Left Hand, Rolled Her On Her Side,
Leaned On Her, Smartly Growled Into
Her Throat And Said "GRRRR!" And
Neatly Nipped Her Ear," sinofabitch.
Here's yours:
"I dropped the leash, threw my
right arm over the Lab's shoulder,
grabbed her opposite foot with my
left hand, rolled her on her side,
leaned on her, said "GRRRR!" and
nipped her ear.
--Sara Sionnach
"The actual quote is misleading when taken out of context"
See?
============
> I regret that this single accident
NO paulie. That was your second "ACCIDENT"
under janet's gentle IN PERSON REAL LIFE
INSTRUCTION. REMEMBER NHOWE, paulie?
> has caused my wonderful dog to be labeled as dangerous,
By the MENTAL CASE who TAUGHT YOU TO HURT HIM.
> which puts me in such a precarious position of liability.
BWEEEEAAHAHAHAHHAHAAAAA!!!
Hey, lissen up arseHOWEL.
IT WA YOU WHO WENT TO JANET KNOWIN SHE'D HURT Muttley.
> I have met a lot of people as a result of my
> sojourn on this and other newsgroups,
You've met a lotta incompetent miserable stinkin
lyin animal murderin active acute chronic long
term incurable mental cases who jerk choke shock
bribe crate intimidate an murder innocent defenseless
dumb critters an LIE abHOWET IT, paulie <{): ~ ( >
IWO, folks JUST LIKE YOURSELF:
"Birds of a feather. You're JUDGED BY the company
you keep. When you lie DHOWEN with pigs you'll
awaken STINKIN LIKE 'M," The Puppy Wizard's DADDY <{): ~ ( >
> and I appreciate the fact that almost everyone here loves dogs
"When you get BAGGED for LYIN you're MARKED
FOR LIFE," The Puppy Wizard's DADDY <{): ~ ( >
> and other animals, and have much good advice to help
> newcomers as well as those with more experience.
You mean the animal abusin mental cases, paulie.
> Of course, there are also those who are more lacking
> in people skills, as evidenced by some of the petty
> exchanges and uninformed criticisms.
Oh, you mean the EXXXPERTS you're askin for ADVICE.
> I have tried to be level-headed, truthful, and
> open-minded in my posts and responses.
That so, paulie? IS THAT HOWE COME YOU HURT Muttley?
> It seems that my detailed story about Muttley
> has opened up many informative dialogs,
Oh, you mean the "Relative Judgement Of A Circular
Assignment Of Thought," eh paulie? You mean the
DISCUSSION abHOWET bribing and avoiding Vs
jerkin choking shocking and intimdiatin.
We're talkin abHOWET MENTAL ILLNESS
and animal an child ABUSE, not dog trainin <{): ~ ( >
> which I hope will help others avoid similar misfortune.
INDEEDY.
HOWEver, it AIN'T GONNA HEELP if all's we got readin
The Sincerely Incredibly Freakin Insanely Simply Amazing
Grand Puppy, Child, Pussy, Birdy And Horsey Wizard's 100% CONSISTENTLY
NEARLY INSTANTLY SUCCESSFUL
FREE WWW Wits' End Dog, Child, Kat And Horse Training
Method Manual Forums are pathetic miserable stinkin lyin
animal murderin mental case LHOWETS, like you, paulie <{}: ~ ( >
> Paul, Muttley and Photon
BWEEEEAAHAHAHHAHAHAAAAA!!!
Here, paulie, READ IT, you miserable
stinkin lyin dog murderin piece of shit:
Valerie had the same problem with her dog who'd spent two
years in a no kill shelter gettin beat up by other dogs.
marybeth tried to make everyone believe Val's post was a
FORGERY by me because we've got some very nasty dangerous
people posting here who'll DO AND SAY ANYTHING to make
your dog act like theirs. They WANT YOU TO HAVE PROBLEMS
with your dog so THEY DON'T LOOK OUT OF PLACE when they
HURT INTIMDIATE and MURDER their own dogs like marybeth
and dian aka lush who just replied to your post do:
Nevyn writes:
Jerry I cannot even begin to tell you the success Ive
had with your training manual! My two mutts have gone
from out-of-control psychos to obedient well behaved
companions within a matter of weeks!
AND My friends have seen the success and have asked
me to work on their dogs!
I was working with a 5 month old Ridgeback female today
and she was being an angel after like an hour of working
with her!
It is AMAZING!!
I pity those fools who take their dogs to classes where the
"Trainers" abuse their dogs! (do they have a degree? A masters?
a Phd? by the way? NO they are average joes off the street who
think they know how to train dogs!)
Once again, Jerry, you are a genius!
NEVYN and my Dogs, Rizzo and Midget, My Grandparents
dogs, Dusty and Snoopy, and my friends pup, Jazz.
================
From: "Valerie M. Holmes" <Holme...@worldnet.att.net>
Date: Fri, 31 May 2002 02:07:23 GMT
Subject: Aggressive Dal from shelter
I recently adopted a female, spayed 3 1/2 yr old
dalmatian from a no-kill shelter. She spent 2
years in the shelter and naturally she has some
socialization issues to overcome.
My problem is I am not quite sure HOW to tackle these issues. . .
1. She is aggresive toward **ALL** other dogs, even
dogs that have shown that they are willing to be submissive.
Upon sight of a dog, she lunges and snarls.
2. She is usually kind and affectionate toward her owner
(me), but recently began turning sour and for no apparent
reason snarls toward me! This has completely destroyed
the trust we were building over the past month.
3. She deals with visitors, but is very anxious around
people she doesn't know. At first she would scream if
a stranger petted her with 2 hands. I just don't trust
her around anyone yet.
4. She lunged at my sisters 2 year old the same way she
lunged toward other dogs, aggressively.
I really really like this dog, when she is calm and able
to relax. I want to keep her, but I don't really know
what the best way to establish the necessary trust.
Any ideas out there?
Val writes Monday, 6/3/02:
Well, for what it's worth, I am praising without
physical contact and she does seem to listen
better than when I would praise with it. I agree
that it is a distraction.
Anyway, no more aggressive behaviors from
her since I started the Witts End.
AND LIKE THIS:
"Leprechaun" <Leprech...@attglobal.net> wrote in message
news:m01Hc.20882$uK.1...@twister.tampabay.rr.com...
> Jerry believes he's a dog trainer.
Fortunately, I happen to believe he is too.
I took a rescued three year old beagle that
had been kept outside all of its life that didn't
even recognize or respond to its name to Jerry's
home (That ugly cinder block shack??? get real)
and in just over one hour of working with the dog,
he was coming on command (not as quickly as he does
now, but still...) and walking with us on a loose lead.
His "hot/cold" exercise and "come when called"
command and pack exercise WORK!
> and in all likelihood he's never even been near a dog.
Well, he's been near mine, and done wonders for him.
You don't have to like him. You don't have
to agree with his methods, but as far as I
am concerned, I've never seen any other
training approach that was as fast and easy.
<<<< Rest of original post deleted >>>>
Ron Flanagan
Orlando, Florida
And THIS:
Subject: Re: Lab/Rot 11 Months (TEMPER PROBLEMS)
Date: 2004-05-21 19:22:05 PST
"Zack Pellers" <ZackPell...@GUESSWHERE.cc>
wrote in message
Your dog needs to be retrained. Contact Mr. Jerry Howe.
Http://www.DoggyDoRight.com
You can start by downloading the free training
manual available on the site above. I used it on
my 4 year old Fila Brasileiro.
When I first brought him home from rescue, he
was similar to the way you decribed your dog.
After using Mr. Howe's training method, the dog
was cured within 72 hours.
-Jack
"MaryBeth" <marbe...@NOSPAMcomcast.net> wrote in message
news:3cfcdcfb$2...@news.teranews.com...
> "MaryBeth" <marbe...@NOSPAMcomcast.net>
> wrote in message
> Didja also see that he has 'morphed' into Valerie M.
> Holmes ?????
> Note: I am not saying there isn't a VALID Valerie
> M. Holmes, but this one lives in howdy's home.
> MB <G>
From: Seeing Spots \(Val\) (Holme...@worldnet.att.net)
Subject: Re: Dear Wits End
Date: 2002-06-04 18:19:07 PST
HEY!!!
There is a Valid Valerie with a REAL Dalmatian
who is a real sweet dog with a few issues that I
am working to resolve after adopting her from a
shelter she spent 2 years in.
All I want is to get some decent help for my dog.
There is some decent stuff in Jerry's manual.
My dog has ACTUALLY been responding to
her training. The deal is you have to seperate
your opinions and impressions from the guy
who is writing these posts and take from the
manual what you want.
Personally, I get a pretty good chuckle out of
the whole Jerry thing. I have to say the guy
is pretty clever, you're letting him get under
your skin.
It makes for a very amusing game I think.
I'm sure he would agree, or he wouldn't be playing
everyday. He also wouldn't be playing if he didn't
believe that his method of training weren't valid.
Perhaps I'll learn from my mistakes, but so far,
using the Wits' End, I have gotten my dalmatian
to listen to me, to look to me for direction, to wait
for me to say when.
I have changed her from an aggressive dog to
one who is willing to please her owner, willing
to listen, willing to assume her role in the pack.
The real Valerie M. Holmes speaking
P.s. Jerry, don't get any ideas about morphing
into me, ok?
-------------------
HOWEDY Group,
Here some SUCCESS STORIES ive had
using JERRY'S MANUAL
1) My dogz, two bitches - Vicious, barking, aggressive,
pulled on leash, wanted to kill any dogs they saw, fought
between each other. TWO WEEKS using Jerry's manual,
they were calm, friends, my companions.
2) ADDED A BEAGLE PUPPY (male) to my "PACK", the
girls had -NO PROBLEMS- with him from the moment I
dropped him by their noses.
3) My FRIENDS dogs 2 MALES barking and jumping
at the fence all night 3 DAYS TRAINING WITH JERRY'S
MANUAL they were CALMED AND HAVEN'T BARKED ONCE!
Added a NEW MALE DOG (2 yrs old) AND
WELCOMED HIM WITH NO WUCKAS !
4) POODLE that ATE food from the KITCHEN BENCH -
lock him in a box? NO! USE JERRYS MANUAL! 4 DAYS
AND HES NEVER DONE IT SINCE!
5) ABUSED DOGS AT THE SHELTER I WORK AT -
HAD TO BE FED WITH A BUCKET ON A STICK -
ONE WEEK ON JERRYS MANUAL, THE SUPERVISOR
TOLD ME TO PUT THEM IN THE PUBLIC KENNELS
FOR SALE !
Quite amazing to - I thought they were just
dull coloured dogs, but after I had removed
the fear and anxiety their hairs coloured up
amazingly.
6) STAFFY FEMALE who would NOT DROP HER
BALL! She carried it around all day and
night - 3 DAYS on jerrys MANUAL and she
now DROPS it when u ASK her to!
BWHWHAHAHAHAAHA !!!!
Nevyn
============
From: Nevyn (ali...@wasp.net.au)
Subject: Newsgroups: rec. pets. dogs. behavior
View this article only
Date: 2002-03-01 03:15:50 PST
Hello
I have two mungrel females; the breeds
exactly are Blue Heeler (spots) x Kelpi
(dominant genes) x American Pitbull
(behavioural) x Pug (don't laugh!).
They are gentle loving dogs when I'm at
home with them, and they are friendly
with unknown people. They are sisters.
One is obviously dominant over the other,
and I don't have a problem with that, however;
Their behaviour is very odd. Some days they
are very good whilst I'm walking them, some
days they are not. They are 3 years old and
have only been walking for about 12 months
because my mom didn't walk them and now I'm
home so I walk them for about an hour and
half every afternoon. I take them to the
park where they chase birds and swim in the
lake.
This is my problem :
The less-dominant dog viscously barks at
every other dog we walk past; I have tried
using a stick and giving her a tap when
she does it, and treating her with treats
when she doesn't, using a choke chain, a
muzzle and a thing that sprays stuff in
her mouth when she barks.
She won't stop! Does anyone know how I can stop her?
Also, the more-dominant dog seems to know
this is WRONG, when the other dog barks,
she doesn't bark, but she nips at the other
dog as if telling her to cut it out, and
then the barking one attacks the more-dominant
one and they fight on the leash... it is quite
disturbing to the people walking past.
And also the more-dominant one is okay around
other dogs... SOMETIMES... sometimes she completely
ignores them, and yet other times she will attack
them, like yesterday.
The less dominant one I must keep on a leash
if a person brings there dog to the park.
How do I stop them attacking other dogs? I have
tried all the methods I have used above for 10
months every afternoon. Is it just a pack-behaviour
thing?
It can really be quite embarrassing when your
dogs attack some old lady's or little girl's dog.
They are good dogs, when at home or when there are
no other dogs around. Today there were hundreds of
sparrows flying around the park and they were chasing
them and jumping up trying to catch them for more than
90 minutes (They went straight to bed when I bought
them home!). Can anyone help me? Email me at my emails
address, ali...@wasp.net.au coz this list is tooo crowded.
Thanks,
Nevyn
=====================
Never give out your password or credit card
number in an instant message conversation.
Nevyn says:
hello Jerry.
Jerry says:
HOWEDY Nevyn
Nevyn says:
How are you?
Jerry says:
sup?
Nevyn says:
Oh nothing
Nevyn says:
My dogs are alot better now!
Jerry says:
fine
Jerry says:
tell me
Nevyn says:
I can walk them on or off the leash and
they don't give a #@% about other dogs
Jerry says:
naah
Nevyn says:
I can let them inside and they wont eat the cats
Jerry says:
naah
Nevyn says:
Yup
Jerry says:
what did you do, buy a shock collar?
Nevyn says:
No
Nevyn says:
Praised them
Jerry says:
ahh!
Jerry says:
you think they're 100% better
Nevyn says:
'cept they still bark at the neighbour
but only coz he swears at them and pours
water on them
Nevyn says:
nahh they still have stinky breath!
Nevyn says:
muahaha
Jerry says:
ok
Jerry says:
I'll go for that
Jerry says:
it'll take a couple more days to break
the neighbor thing if you're consistent
Jerry says:
then he won't swear and throw water at them
Nevyn says:
yeah but he's only out on the weekends
Jerry says:
but they'll still have stinky breath
Nevyn says:
muahahaha
Jerry says:
you gonna write the group and tell
them they're suckin hind teat?
Nevyn says:
eh
Nevyn says:
nah
Nevyn says:
cant
Nevyn says:
my news server isn't workin
Nevyn says:
how about u just screenshot or copy this chat and post it
Jerry says:
why not.
Nevyn says:
sorry been tryin all day to get on the news server
Jerry says:
you got anything you'd like to tell the dog
lovers who would prefer to see you choke and
shock and lock your dogs in a box?
Jerry says:
I guess you don't want to tell them nuthin that they don't
already know, huh?
Nevyn says:
hah
Nevyn says:
tell them they're fuckers who need to die
Nevyn says:
dogs aren't for abusing they are for loving they love so much
Jerry says:
that's HOWE COME they got me now
Jerry says:
howe much training time did it take for the two of 'em?
Nevyn says:
pfftt
Nevyn says:
it didn't even seem like training
Nevyn says:
its been 24 days since I got your manual
Jerry says:
pfffttt!!!!
Jerry says:
hhahahahaha
Jerry says:
have you got that feeling that they're in tune
with EVERYTHING you're wanting them to do?
Jerry says:
I forgot what city you're in.
Jerry says:
maybe if you're near alphalpha sweeny you can swing
by and LAUGH your ass off at him growling at his dogs???
Jerry says:
BWWWHAHAHAHAHAAAA!!!
Nevyn says:
LOL
Nevyn says:
I'm in Perth, Australia!
Nevyn says:
and yes they do seem to be in tune
=====================
Nevyn says:
oh!! the other day my dogs went into submissive
position when a tiny little toy poodle came up
barking at them! !LOL
Jerry says:
EXCELLENT!
Nevyn says:
lol
Jerry says:
they knew they didn't need to fight, cause
everything was in your expert control.
Keep up the good work. j;~)
-----------------
Nevy'n was my SCARIEST Student, dog lovers.
He's now working as a professional trainer.
NHOWE get the heel HOWETA The Sincerely Incredibly
Freakin Insanely Simply Amazing Grand Puppy, Child,
Pussy, Birdy And Horsey Wizard's 100% CONSISTENTLY
NEARLY INSTANTLY SUCCESSFUL FREE WWW Wits'
End Dog, Child, Kat And Horse Training Method Manual Forums <{); ~ ) >
Oh, and WON last point, PLEASE, paulie;
DO
NOT
EVER
FORGET:
I'm Jerry Howe, The Sincerely Incredibly Freakin Insanely Simply
A-M-A-Z-I-N-G
G-R-A-N-D
Puppy, Child, Pussy, Birdy And Horsey Wizard <{} ; ~ ) >
BWEEEEEEEEAAAHAHAHAHHAAAAA!!!
Sionnach
"Paul E. Schoen" <pst...@smart.net> wrote": > I
> have explained that the only time I lost control of the leash was due to
> my being in an unbalanced position that was taught to me, if not by Janet,
> then by one of her instructors. I regret that this single accident has
> caused my wonderful dog to be labeled as dangerous, which puts me in such
> a precarious position of liability.
"Losing control of the leash" is not what caused the dog to be "labeled as
dangerous". The fact that he immediately took advantage of your lack of
control to attack and injure another dog is what caused that.
Paula
wrote:
This is the saddest part of what has happened on the AOL group. Paul,
being new to dog ownership, doesn't know what is normal or not normal
behavior for even a rescue or somewhat aggressive dog. Muttley's
response was not normal and would have happened eventually, no matter
what. Beyond that, Paul was in a position of liability before he ever
even set foot in Janet's class because his dog was already what would
be labeled a dangerous dog from things it had done at his home. I'm
not sure even if Diddy can rehab him that a rescue can rehome him. But
at least he'll be a better pet for Paul.
Robin Nuttall
I'm
> not sure even if Diddy can rehab him that a rescue can rehome him. But
> at least he'll be a better pet for Paul.
>
>
right from the get-go. Paul has not demonstrated that he is either
willing or able to competently handle this dog. And even IF Diddy was
able to rehab the dog to be safe with HER, if the dog went back to Paul,
with his general lack of understanding (and unwillingness to take
responsibility for his, or Muttley's actions), he would very soon be
right back to square one.
I think the answer is to euthanize Muttley, because Paul is almost
certainly never going to be able to deal with him. I think what will
actually happen is that Paul will keep Muttley, and Muttley will end up
biting Paul or someone else, or attacking and perhaps this time succeed
in killing, another dog. And Paul will continue to be full of excuses as
to why it is NOT HIS FAULT.
shelly
> if the dog went back to Paul,
> with his general lack of understanding (and unwillingness to take
> responsibility for his, or Muttley's actions), he would very soon be
> right back to square one.
That's my take on it. Training the dog and sending it back to Paul
makes about as much sense as sending a dog to board-and-train when
the owner's handling the dog is a significant problem.
--
Shelly (Warning: see label for details)
http://www.cat-sidh.net (the Mother Ship)
http://esther.cat-sidh.net (Letters to Esther)
Janet B
clicked their heels and said:
>
>That's my take on it. Training the dog and sending it back to Paul
>makes about as much sense as sending a dog to board-and-train when
>the owner's handling the dog is a significant problem.
But now he's met with a "behaviorist" (yes, I'm skeptical) who bashed
group classes (sure, the guy only teaches private training at big
bucks, why shouldn't he?), and he's been shown a kind and gentle way
of dealing with Muttley, so anyone in the area - keep an eye on the
trails - and watch your back. I really hope this doesn't come back to
bite Paul in the ass, literally or figuratively.
Meanwhile, he wants to return the prong collar "when he no longer has
use for it". I told him I would replace the strap, but he wants a
refund for defective product and has threatened all sorts of nasties
and that he's somewhat like Muttley and may bite. Lovely.
He'll get a refund when and if he returns the collar immediately (I'm
posting this here, just so he can see my words in B&W that everyone
else sees as well) and I agree that it's defective. Put the scissors
DOWN Paul, along with your hackles.
--
Janet Boss
www.bestfriendsdogobedience.com
Lynne
<ja...@bestfriendsdogobedience.com> wrote:
> Meanwhile, he wants to return the prong collar "when he no longer has
> use for it". I told him I would replace the strap, but he wants a
> refund for defective product and has threatened all sorts of nasties
> and that he's somewhat like Muttley and may bite. Lovely.
>
> He'll get a refund when and if he returns the collar immediately (I'm
> posting this here, just so he can see my words in B&W that everyone
> else sees as well) and I agree that it's defective. Put the scissors
> DOWN Paul, along with your hackles.
wow. He wants an $8 (?) refund for a USED collar--that he probably still
should use--after you gave him training classes for free?? I'd send him a
replacement strap (and that would be generous) and tell him to shove it up
his ass.
- Lynne
shelly
> But now he's met with a "behaviorist" (yes, I'm skeptical) who bashed
> group classes
It's easy to bash the class environment Muttley was in, but it was
like pulling teeth to get Paul to do even *that* much. This is the
guy who--at that point--couldn't be arsed to walk the dog or bring
it indoors. Can you imagine Paul taking Muttley to a behaviorist in
the first place? I sure can't. So yeah, playing the "shoulda,
coulda" game might be entertaining, but those who are engaging in it
are lacking a significant piece of information about Paul's level of
motivation regarding dealing with his dog.
> (sure, the guy only teaches private training at big
> bucks, why shouldn't he?), and he's been shown a kind and gentle way
> of dealing with Muttley, so anyone in the area - keep an eye on the
> trails - and watch your back. I really hope this doesn't come back to
> bite Paul in the ass, literally or figuratively.
Where the hell is the rescue group in all of this? I know there are
crappy organizations out there, but surely even they don't want
their reputation affected by loosing a dog with an iffy temperament
on the world? Not to mention the financial liability, if Muttley
does attack another dog or person. (For that matter, were they even
informed that he has bitten a human and seriously bitten a dog?)
> Meanwhile, he wants to return the prong collar "when he no longer has
> use for it". I told him I would replace the strap, but he wants a
> refund for defective product and has threatened all sorts of nasties
> and that he's somewhat like Muttley and may bite. Lovely.
That *so* doesn't surprise me. Honestly, that's the sort of
weaselly vibe I've gotten from him from Day 1.
> He'll get a refund when and if he returns the collar immediately (I'm
> posting this here, just so he can see my words in B&W that everyone
> else sees as well) and I agree that it's defective. Put the scissors
> DOWN Paul, along with your hackles.
That seems reasonable to me. What is *not* reasonable is continuing
to use a product, with the expectation that you will get a refund
for it when it is no longer useful. That's called "renting" or
"leasing."
shelly
> And this is the crux But I feel Paul is an intelligent man and if he
> brought a kennel with the dog.and brought him here, I believe he may have
> the commitment to change. I would have Muttley here until the renovations
> were finished.
Oh, I think Paul is intelligent, I just think he's got some
personality quirks that make him unsuitable as an owner for a dog
like Muttley.
> What I do fear, is the tendencies of Paul to be so critical of everything
> might tend to make me liable and fingers be pointed to me,should he fail
> to follow through causing Muttley to Relapse.
If I were you, I'd consider it seriously. It appears that no good,
generous deed goes unpunished. Even *I* would hate to see what's
happened to Janet happen to you. It's grossly unfair.
> I CAN train the dog.
I've no doubt of that, but training the dog and ensuring the dog
will be safe in Paul's hands are two different things. I get the
impression that Paul doesn't want to hurt poor Muttley-wuttley's
feelings. While there are dogs who would thrive and be perfectly
safe with that sort of owner, I don't think Muttley will ever be one
of them.
Melinda Shore
shelly <she...@cat-sidh.net> wrote:
>That *so* doesn't surprise me. Honestly, that's the sort of
>weaselly vibe I've gotten from him from Day 1.
I don't think it's possible to know what kind of person Paul
is or is not based on interactions here, which are
necessarily very narrowly constrained. I do think it's
possible to talk about the things that have happened or have
not happened, and it seems to me that one of the things that
hasn't happened is for Paul to be explicit about his
expectations of Muttley, of Janet, of the newsgroup (for
whatever that's worth, which shouldn't be much), and
especially of himself. I think he started out fairly clear
about it (too many other commitments) and then things got
confused.
Another problem has been people saying "*I* can save that
dog!" and then either not actually trying to save the dog (I
freakin' hate excuses - put up or shut up). Saying the dog
can be saved is not the same thing as saving the dog, and to
a certain extent the "*I* can save that dog!" assertions
have something of a parallel in people buying exercise
equipment believing that owning it is enough to make them
fitter. You have to actually do the work or the assertion
is worthless.
--
Melinda Shore - Software longa, hardware brevis - sh...@panix.com
There are 2,012 earmarks in the research section alone
of the GOP's latest defense bill.
TaraG
"diddy" <di...@nospam.diddy.net> wrote in message
news:Xns9861593...@216.196.97.142...
> in thread news:4pp8knF...@individual.net: shelly <she...@cat-sidh.net>
> whittled the following words:
>
>>
>> That's my take on it. Training the dog and sending it back to Paul
>> makes about as much sense as sending a dog to board-and-train when
>> the owner's handling the dog is a significant problem.
>>
>>
>
> brought a kennel with the dog.and brought him here, I believe he may have
> the commitment to change. I would have Muttley here until the renovations
> were finished.
>
> might tend to make me liable and fingers be pointed to me,should he fail
> to follow through causing Muttley to Relapse.
>
That's where contracts releasing you from ALL liability come in. I hope.
Though if it didn't work, I guess he'd be asking for a refund on the gas
money he spent getting Muttley to your house. bleh.
Tara
Amy Dahl
diddy wrote:
> in thread news:4pp8knF...@individual.net: shelly <she...@cat-sidh.net>
> whittled the following words:
>
> >
> > That's my take on it. Training the dog and sending it back to Paul
> > makes about as much sense as sending a dog to board-and-train when
> > the owner's handling the dog is a significant problem.
> >
> >
>
> And this is the crux But I feel Paul is an intelligent man and if he
> brought a kennel with the dog.and brought him here, I believe he may have
> the commitment to change. I would have Muttley here until the renovations
> were finished.
>
> What I do fear, is the tendencies of Paul to be so critical of everything
> might tend to make me liable and fingers be pointed to me,should he fail
> to follow through causing Muttley to Relapse.
>
> I CAN train the dog.
As someone who does board training, I am familiar with this
uncertainty. I have had at least one dog with pretty bad, owner-
caused problems where a word to the owner was sufficient. He
applied himself to learning better handling and changing his
habits while I trained the dog, and they've done great together.
I have had the other extreme, too--people who are clearly
intelligent, but even though I tried to focus their attention on the
one or two most important things to keeping the dog on the
right track, they haven't done it.
Training retrievers as hunting dogs gives me a huge advantage,
though. The owners take the dogs hunting and most of the dogs
quickly conclude that the owner holds the key to everything good.
I can't see how I could make training stick without that
motivation.
Amy Dahl
shelly
> I don't think it's possible to know what kind of person Paul
> is or is not based on interactions here, which are
> necessarily very narrowly constrained.
Absolutely. There is sometimes no accounting for vibes, and as
illogical as they are, I get 'em about people and it's very hard for
me not to react accordingly. I'm not saying that's a good thing,
either.
> I do think it's
> possible to talk about the things that have happened or have
> not happened, and it seems to me that one of the things that
> hasn't happened is for Paul to be explicit about his
> expectations of Muttley, of Janet, of the newsgroup (for
> whatever that's worth, which shouldn't be much), and
> especially of himself.
While he hasn't been explicit about them, I think it's become pretty
clear what some of his expectations are for Janet and the newsgroup.
Agreed on his expectations for himself and Muttley, though,
especially of late. What *is* his goal?
> I think he started out fairly clear
> about it (too many other commitments) and then things got
> confused.
I don't know that "clear" is how I'd describe Paul's initial posts
here. His ultimate points may have been well described, but the
meandering manner of his posts made my brane ache to a degree that I
had trouble finishing many of them.
People who wander all over the place and can't get to the frigging
point drive me batshit crazy. My last two bosses had the same
problem, and would start a story in the middle, then slowly get
around to the beginning, then the end. Kill me now!
> Saying the dog
> can be saved is not the same thing as saving the dog,
Oh yeah. Shrieking "You're a cruel meanypants because you would
even consider euthing a dog that *I* could save," is really easy
when you are in no danger of having to actually take any of the
responsibility for working with the dog.
Handsome Jack Morrison
<handsomeja...@gmail.com> wrote:
[]
>>wow. He wants an $8 (?) refund for a USED collar--that he probably still
>>should use--after you gave him training classes for free?? I'd send him a
>>replacement strap (and that would be generous) and tell him to shove it up
>>his ass.
I like your style!
Especially that last part.
--
Handsome Jack Morrison
Janet B
clicked their heels and said:
>
>Exactly.Especially if he's seeing a behaviorist using such gentle methods
>that he no longer needs a collar to control the dog. (JH?)
The "behaviorist" threw food out and then gave him a hard correction
with the prong collar for going for it. I have no idea what that was
about.
--
Janet Boss
www.bestfriendsdogobedience.com
shelly
> The "behaviorist" threw food out and then gave him a hard correction
> with the prong collar for going for it. I have no idea what that was
> about.
Perhaps he's trying to create food-related aggression issues?
Handsome Jack Morrison
<ja...@bestfriendsdogobedience.com> wrote:
>On Thu, 19 Oct 2006 08:20:13 -0500, diddy <di...@nospam.diddy.net>,
>clicked their heels and said:
>
>>
>>Exactly.Especially if he's seeing a behaviorist using such gentle methods
>>that he no longer needs a collar to control the dog. (JH?)
>
>The "behaviorist" threw food out and then gave him a hard correction
>with the prong collar for going for it. I have no idea what that was
>about.
Question: Where are you getting this stuff?
--
Handsome Jack Morrison
Janet B
<handsomeja...@gmail.com>, clicked their heels and said:
>
>Question: Where are you getting this stuff?
CBB - "Attacks in Class" thread. He posted this morning about his
meeting with the "behaviorist".
--
Janet Boss
www.bestfriendsdogobedience.com
Handsome Jack Morrison
wrote:
[]
>>>The "behaviorist" threw food out and then gave him a hard correction
>>>with the prong collar for going for it. I have no idea what that was
>>>about.
>>
>> Question: Where are you getting this stuff?
>>
>
>From posts here
Where did Paul ever say anything like that *here*???
--
Handsome Jack Morrison
Handsome Jack Morrison
<ja...@bestfriendsdogobedience.com> wrote:
>On Thu, 19 Oct 2006 11:54:22 -0400, Handsome Jack Morrison
><handsomeja...@gmail.com>, clicked their heels and said:
>
>>
>>Question: Where are you getting this stuff?
>
>CBB - "Attacks in Class" thread. He posted this morning about his
>meeting with the "behaviorist".
Aah.
I didn't think it could have been here (thanks, Diddy!).
So, it's back to the belly of the beast I go.
Thanks.
--
Handsome Jack Morrison
sighthounds & siberians
diddy wrote:
> What I do fear, is the tendencies of Paul to be so critical of everything
> might tend to make me liable and fingers be pointed to me,should he fail
> to follow through causing Muttley to Relapse.
I think you can count on that. Anything that happens after Paul takes
the dog back will be blamed on you. And something will happen, because
Paul has demonstrated not just lack of knowledge - - that would be
excusable - - but unwillingness to do what needs to be done to make
Muttley reliable.
> I CAN train the dog.
I don't doubt that for a minute. But at what cost (and I'm not talking
about $$)?
Mustang Sally
Rocky
> Training the dog and sending it back to Paul
> makes about as much sense as sending a dog to
> board-and-train when the owner's handling the dog is a
> significant problem.
To me, it's a viable last chance.
--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
Handsome Jack Morrison
Well, I learned one thing. That Paul is a real piece of work, not to
mention a lying sack of shit.
Okay, I proverbially already knew that.
I got a kick out of one of the CBBers crowing that it was just so nice
to Paul finally giving "PR" a go.
"PR" like this:
"the trainer made a very quick, sharp correction on the leash (with
his prong collar in place)"
WTF?
Them goobers are freakin' nuts.
I think it's smart to run about as far away from Paul and Muttley as
one can possibly get.
And then run a little farther.
Sheesh.
What a fucking mess.
--
Handsome Jack Morrison
Handsome Jack Morrison
<handsomeja...@gmail.com> wrote:
>Okay, I proverbially already knew that.
^^^^^^^^^^^^
PROBABLY!
Sheesh.
--
Handsome Jack Morrison
Marcel Beaudoin
news:ba9fj2t3too6a1kqu...@4ax.com:
> "the trainer made a very quick, sharp correction on the leash (with
> his prong collar in place)"
Now I would like to think that, although I have never used a prong collar,
that I have picked something up from all the discussions in here, so please
correct me if I am wrong about this...
Aren't prong collars supposed to provide self-correction to the dog?? When
they pull, it provides some discomfort, when they stop, it stops. Isn't
giving a correction with a prong collar wrong??
Wrong may not be the right word, but my brain is on vacation today, so it
is the only word that is being provided.
--
Marcel and Moogli
http://mudbunny.blogspot.com/
shelly
> in thread news:4u9fj2hgcu61cut3r...@4ax.com: Handsome Jack
> Morrison <handsomeja...@gmail.com> whittled the following words:
>
>
>>On Thu, 19 Oct 2006 12:27:37 -0400, Handsome Jack Morrison
>><handsomeja...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Okay, I proverbially already knew that.
>>
>> ^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>
>>PROBABLY!
>>
>>Sheesh.
>>
>
>
Isn't talking to yourself a sign of mental illness? Just sayin'...
sighthounds & siberians
Handsome Jack Morrison wrote:
> Well, I learned one thing. That Paul is a real piece of work, not to
> mention a lying sack of shit.
He said he's being viciously attacked here. Hopefully that means he
will stay away, but somehow I doubt it.
> "the trainer made a very quick, sharp correction on the leash (with
> his prong collar in place)"
>
> WTF?
I noticed that the behaviorist (who explained things so clearly that if
only Janet would have done that in the beginning none of this would
have happend) apparently did not explain that.
> I think it's smart to run about as far away from Paul and Muttley as
> one can possibly get.
>
> And then run a little farther.
>
> Sheesh.
>
> What a fucking mess.
As further proof that there is no cabal or clique on this ng when it
comes to opinions, I agree with you 100%.
Mustang Sally
shelly
> Aren't prong collars supposed to provide self-correction to the dog?? When
> they pull, it provides some discomfort, when they stop, it stops. Isn't
> giving a correction with a prong collar wrong??
Not necessarily. It depends on how the collar is being used. If
it's being used to curb pulling on lead, then allowing the dog to
self-correct is generally the recommended advice. A prong collar
can also be used by the handler to apply a physical correction.
Amy Dahl
Marcel Beaudoin wrote:
>
> Now I would like to think that, although I have never used a prong collar,
> that I have picked something up from all the discussions in here, so please
> correct me if I am wrong about this...
>
> Aren't prong collars supposed to provide self-correction to the dog?? When
> they pull, it provides some discomfort, when they stop, it stops. Isn't
> giving a correction with a prong collar wrong??
>
You hear that in a lot of places, and it has been repeated here.
I give corrections with them under certain circumstances, and
find that they work really well in those, limited, circumstances.
I work with some dogs that are physically insensitive.
Amy Dahl
Marcel Beaudoin
news:4ppnqtF...@individual.net:
> Marcel Beaudoin wrote:
>
>> Aren't prong collars supposed to provide self-correction to the dog??
>> When they pull, it provides some discomfort, when they stop, it
>> stops. Isn't giving a correction with a prong collar wrong??
>
> Not necessarily. It depends on how the collar is being used. If
> it's being used to curb pulling on lead, then allowing the dog to
> self-correct is generally the recommended advice. A prong collar
> can also be used by the handler to apply a physical correction.
Ahhh, thanks!!
Marcel Beaudoin
news:4537AAA2...@oakhillkennel.com:
Hah. My learning for the day is done!! My brain can now officially shut
down!!
Handsome Jack Morrison
On 19 Oct 2006 16:31:56 GMT, Marcel Beaudoin
<marcel....@gmail.com> wrote:
>Handsome Jack Morrison <handsomeja...@gmail.com> wrote in
>news:ba9fj2t3too6a1kqu...@4ax.com:
>
>> "the trainer made a very quick, sharp correction on the leash (with
>> his prong collar in place)"
>
>Now I would like to think that, although I have never used a prong collar,
>that I have picked something up from all the discussions in here, so please
>correct me if I am wrong about this...
>
>Aren't prong collars supposed to provide self-correction to the dog?? When
>they pull, it provides some discomfort, when they stop, it stops. Isn't
>giving a correction with a prong collar wrong??
Actually, no, Marcel Prongs can be used to give corrections, too.
Yes, prongs can also be used as TRAINING collars, much in the same way
that choke collars are properly used. It's just harder to give a
proper correction with a prong than with a choke collar.
Most dog owners who opt for using prongs in the first place are doing
so as a means of CONTROL (which the prong gives them immediately), not
TRAINING. Many of them never get around to the TRAINING part, and
that's why you see dogs that have been on prongs for years.
Again, that's why I'm not a big fan of prongs.
Ideally, the prong (if you're going to use one) should be used for
TRAINING, too, so that the need for a prong quickly disappears.
>Wrong may not be the right word, but my brain is on vacation today, so it
>is the only word that is being provided.
No problemo.
--
Handsome Jack Morrison
Handsome Jack Morrison
wrote:
>in thread news:4u9fj2hgcu61cut3r...@4ax.com: Handsome Jack
>Morrison <handsomeja...@gmail.com> whittled the following words:
>
>> On Thu, 19 Oct 2006 12:27:37 -0400, Handsome Jack Morrison
>><handsomeja...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>Okay, I proverbially already knew that.
>> ^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>
>> PROBABLY!
>>
>> Sheesh.
>Answering yourself much lately?
Are you still here?
I thought you'd be out somewhere celebrating your good fortune.
--
Handsome Jack Morrison
Handsome Jack Morrison
wrote:
>in thread news:Xns98617F7B9BEB0...@130.133.1.4: Marcel
>Beaudoin <marcel....@gmail.com> whittled the following words:
>
>> Handsome Jack Morrison <handsomeja...@gmail.com> wrote in
>> news:ba9fj2t3too6a1kqu...@4ax.com:
>>
>>> "the trainer made a very quick, sharp correction on the leash (with
>>> his prong collar in place)"
>>
>> Now I would like to think that, although I have never used a prong
>> collar, that I have picked something up from all the discussions in
>> here, so please correct me if I am wrong about this...
>>
>> Aren't prong collars supposed to provide self-correction to the dog??
>> When they pull, it provides some discomfort, when they stop, it stops.
>> Isn't giving a correction with a prong collar wrong??
>
>Exactly. The theory being that the dog applies self correction, but not to
>the point of injury. You should never collar pop a prong collar.
Oh, bullshit. It's not only appropriate, it's highly recommended.
For TRAINING, not for control.
It looks like Muttley dodged a bullet, too.
--
Handsome Jack Morrison
Rocky
rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
>> Aren't prong collars supposed to provide self-correction
>> to the dog??
> You hear that in a lot of places, and it has been repeated
> here.
I'm one of those who have said that, but it should be taken
within context.
> I give corrections with them under certain
> circumstances, and find that they work really well in
> those, limited, circumstances.
Yes.
Sionnach
"sighthounds & siberians" <grey...@ncweb.com> wrote in message
news:1161275565....@e3g2000cwe.googlegroups.com...
>
> Handsome Jack Morrison wrote:
>> I think it's smart to run about as far away from Paul and Muttley as
>> one can possibly get.
>>
>> And then run a little farther.
Nice to see HJM has finally taken the scales off of his eyes.
I won't be holding my breath for any apology from him WRT calling me names
etc. for believing I'm justifed in having serious concerns about Muttley
being taken to the same places where I take my dogs, though. (Not that I'd
see it anyway, unless somebody quoted it.)
Although I would really rather NOT have been right in my suspicion that Paul
was going to start backpeddling both in his claims about the severity of
what Muttley did, his ablity to control him, and on his decision that he
can't manage him properly. :-P
Handsome Jack Morrison
wrote:
>"sighthounds & siberians" <grey...@ncweb.com> wrote in message
>news:1161275565....@e3g2000cwe.googlegroups.com...
>>
>> Handsome Jack Morrison wrote:
>
>>> I think it's smart to run about as far away from Paul and Muttley as
>>> one can possibly get.
>>>
>>> And then run a little farther.
>
> Nice to see HJM has finally taken the scales off of his eyes.
Oh, please.
I've been on his ass from Day One. I always thought that he was a big
shmuck. If I weren't in your kill file (supposedly!), you'd know that.
But even shmucks deserve some consideration when they're faced with
maybe having to put their dog down.
I still feel sorry for Muttley.
Paul?
Not so much.
--
Handsome Jack Morrison
Janet B
clicked their heels and said:
>Unless the exercise issue is relieved,I sincerely doubt the behaviorist
>will make lasting progress (unless,of course, he/she drugs the dog)
I agree, First though, I highly doubt that this is an actual
behaviorist, but I could be wrong.
There are SO many changes that need to be made, and some of those may
seem uncomfortable. If the "behaviorist" isn't recommending those
changes - ACK! Fencing isn't cheap. Exercising a large and strong
dog-aggressive dog, where he's not a danger to others, is a tall
order. Even those who aren't dog aggressive, but can become
problematic without adequate exercise, the outlook is often bleak.
There are reasons that large adolescent dogs wind up in shelters or
worse, and an awful lot of them are because they didn't get the
exercise and structure that are very basic, in addition to needed
obedience training.
--
Janet Boss
www.bestfriendsdogobedience.com
Handsome Jack Morrison
<ja...@bestfriendsdogobedience.com> wrote:
>On Thu, 19 Oct 2006 12:14:09 -0500, diddy <di...@nospam.diddy.net>,
>clicked their heels and said:
>
>>Unless the exercise issue is relieved,I sincerely doubt the behaviorist
>>will make lasting progress (unless,of course, he/she drugs the dog)
>
>I agree, First though, I highly doubt that this is an actual
>behaviorist, but I could be wrong.
I got a kick out of Paul cooing about how much time the "behaviorist"
gave him, comparing it favorably to the limited time you gave him.
I wonder how much time he could have gotten from you for $500?
Heh.
Freakin' maroon.
--
Handsome Jack Morrison
Janet B
<handsomeja...@gmail.com>, clicked their heels and said:
>
>I wonder how much time he could have gotten from you for $500?
He would have had me at his house ~5x for 1 hour + each time.
--
Janet Boss
www.bestfriendsdogobedience.com
Handsome Jack Morrison
<ja...@bestfriendsdogobedience.com> wrote:
>On Thu, 19 Oct 2006 13:26:35 -0400, Handsome Jack Morrison
><handsomeja...@gmail.com>, clicked their heels and said:
>>I wonder how much time he could have gotten from you for $500?
>
>He would have had me at his house ~5x for 1 hour + each time.
Wait a few days.
He'll start bitching about how much all this is costing him.
--
Handsome Jack Morrison
TaraG
"Janet B" <ja...@bestfriendsdogobedience.com> wrote in message
news:oo6fj21dgj0ir5fsg...@4ax.com...
> On Thu, 19 Oct 2006 08:20:13 -0500, diddy <di...@nospam.diddy.net>,
> clicked their heels and said:
>
>>
>>that he no longer needs a collar to control the dog. (JH?)
>
> The "behaviorist" threw food out and then gave him a hard correction
> with the prong collar for going for it. I have no idea what that was
> about.
Sounds like a trainer, rather then a true Behaviorist.
Odd thing though, if he's going to blame your methods for increasing his
dog's stress level to the point of aggression, how is this getting
rationalized?
Tara
TaraG
"Marcel Beaudoin" <marcel....@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:Xns98617F7B9BEB0...@130.133.1.4...
> Handsome Jack Morrison <handsomeja...@gmail.com> wrote in
> news:ba9fj2t3too6a1kqu...@4ax.com:
>
>> "the trainer made a very quick, sharp correction on the leash (with
>> his prong collar in place)"
>
> Now I would like to think that, although I have never used a prong collar,
> that I have picked something up from all the discussions in here, so
> please
> correct me if I am wrong about this...
>
> Aren't prong collars supposed to provide self-correction to the dog?? When
> they pull, it provides some discomfort, when they stop, it stops. Isn't
> giving a correction with a prong collar wrong??
Some here use prongs that way, and believe that to be the only "correct" way
to use them, but I have never thought that.
A quick jerk and release is, IMO, often the appropriate correction when
using a prong. It *can* be used for self corrections as well, but depending
on the dog and the circumstances, that isn't always clear enough, nor
"sharp" enough (and by "sharp" I mean fast, not painful)
> Wrong may not be the right word, but my brain is on vacation today, so it
> is the only word that is being provided.
I'm having one of those myself. Let me know if you figure out how to fix
that. I could use some tips.
Tara
Marcel Beaudoin
news:t9PZg.5586$Dg5.4931@trndny09:
>
> "Marcel Beaudoin" <marcel....@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:Xns98617F7B9BEB0...@130.133.1.4...
>> Wrong may not be the right word, but my brain is on vacation today,
>> so it is the only word that is being provided.
>
> I'm having one of those myself. Let me know if you figure out how to
> fix that. I could use some tips.
Fresh chocolate chip cookies and lots of Coca Cola seem to be working for
me, although that may just be a sugar/caffeine rush talking.
shelly
> Fresh chocolate chip cookies and lots of Coca Cola seem to be working for
> me, although that may just be a sugar/caffeine rush talking.
If your sugar/caffeine rush is talking, you probably have bigger
problems than a vacationing brane. Just sayin'...
Human_And_Animal_Behavior_Foren...@hotmail.com
punk thug coward active acute chronic long term incurable mental case
whoremongerin SEXUAL SADIST, aka MACK DADDY <{}: ~ ) >
The Followin Posts Are Brought To You Courtesy of The Sincerely
Incredibly Freakin Insanely Simply Amazing Grand Puppy, Child,
Pussy, Birdy And Horsey Wizard's
Annals Of Human And Animal Behavior Forensic Sciences
Research Laboratory
AND
COLLEGE OF HARD KNOCKXXX
<{): ~ ( >
Subject: {ASSD} - Looking for title for BDSM story
1 From: Mudbunny
Date: Tues, Jun 22 2004 3:00 pm
Email: m...@hotmail.com (Mudbunny)
I would like the help of the residents of ASSD for help in finding a
story. It is a rather long one that centers (I think) around BDSM.
It starts when the main character is a young boy and he gets into some
BDSM with his neighbour. I remember one of the parts is that she ties
a thread/rope/yarn around his cock.
As an adult, he goes to work for a company that specialises in hosting
websites that deal with erotica and BDSM. He ends up being a sub to a
bunch of the women there, despite being married. At some point in
time, his wife dies. Also, his old neighbour comes back and tries to
buy him. He also names a server after her (the neighbour)
Thanks
mudbunny
You might wanna try that thread on Moogli's Pee Pee, eh marcel
the imbecile idiot liar dog an child abusin punk thug coward acitve
acute chronic long term incurable mental case an self perceived
MACK DADDY~!:
Subject: Moogli is on his way to being a man!!!
Moogli is on his way to being a man!!!
« Start of topic « Older Messages 1 - 2 of 2 Newer » End of
topic »
Fixed font - Proportional font
1 From: Mudbunny - view profile
Date: Thurs, Jan 2 2003 11:22 am
Email: m...@hotmail.com (Mudbunny)
Groups: rec.pets.dogs.behavior
For now, anyways.
At 16 weeks of age (possibly earlier, as we just noticed it this
week), my shih-tzu/mini schnauzer has discovered that he is
a man!!
To the unfortunate suprise of a number of fuzzy slippers in the
apartment.
I am not sure if he knows WHAT he is doing, but it is sure funny to
see him doing it...
He won't be doing it for long though, once training classes are over
and he has all his teeth, he will be going to the vet.
Marcel C. Beaudoin
Pray for the poor slippers, they will never be the same again...
THAT'S INSANE, MACK DADDY <{) : ~ ( >
9 From: Mudbunny
Date: Mon, Dec 23 2002 12:32 pm
Email: m...@hotmail.com (Mudbunny)
Groups: rec.pets.dogs.behavior
I always see it as the dog doing it on the chance that they are
getting food. I read somewhere it is the "hope springs eternal" idea.
Sorta like how single guys go out to the bar quite often on the hope
that they get lucky. All it takes is one success (despite hundreds of
failures) to make the positive link.
Marcel
You might have better LUCK if you tie that thread arHOWEND your
puppy's Pee Pee, maybe it'll heighten your enjoyment of his submissive
urination, eh marcel?
Subject: (ASS) Looking for a story (another one)
1 From: Mudbunny
Date: Tues, Dec 10 2002 10:47 am
Email: m...@hotmail.com (Mudbunny)
Groups: alt.sex.stories
Thanks to the people that replied to my previous post.
The story was Hildy, and I found it on Storiesonline.
My next request is this:
This one is a longish story. More of a novel than anything else. It
involves a man and a younger female (high scchool maybe??). All I
remember is that his house is high tech.. Has voice controls and
everything for the lihjts and stuff like that.
I know it is not much to go on, but I hope it helps.
Me
From: Mudbunny
Date: Wed, Dec 11 2002 12:44 pm
Email: m...@hotmail.com (Mudbunny)
Groups: alt.sex.stories
Unfortunately, I am quite certain it is his. I think the general plot
is similar to Call Girl Cheerleaders. It starts off with one girl, and
then she invites friends over as well.
Subject: {ASS} Req: Master's Ring
1 From: Chemguy
Date: Sat, Aug 14 1999 12:00 am
Email: Chemguy <m...@hotmail.com>
Groups: alt.sex.stories
I am looking for the rest of a Story Called The Master's Ring. I have
parts 1-3 of 14, but I would like the rest. It looks very interesting
and seems to have a really good plot. Any help would be appreciated.
Please e-mail as attachments or post o the group.
Thanx
Subject: {ASSD} Looking for Story ID
1 From: mudbunny
Date: Mon, Jan 30 2006 3:11 pm
Email: "mudbunny" <marcel.beaud...@gmail.com>
Groups: alt.sex.stories.d
I am looking for the title (or hopefully, a llink) to a story I
remember reading quite a few years ago.
The central character is a man who gets involved in a BDSM relationship
with some of the senior executives at a corporation where he works. He
is the senior network executive, IIRC.
The story starts out with him as a young child, where he plays D/S
games with his neighbour and she ties his cock with a piece of red
yarn. Years later, he still carries that piece of yarn in his wallet.
He is married, but partway through the story (it is fairly long) his
wife dies and he is distraught.
Partway through the story, the neighbour girl comes back as the head of
a fairly large business group (I think) and wants to buy him once she
finds out that he named one of the server farms after her.
I have been searching on Google for this story for quite a while now,
but can't seem to find it.
Subject: Help would be greatly appreciated.
6 From: Chemguy
Date: Sat, Jun 5 1999 12:00 am
Email: Chemguy <m...@hotmail.com>
Groups: alt.sex.prostitution
As mentioned previously, incall in Canada is illegal, outcall is legal.
That being said, most cities have a wide variety of incall providers.
They are generally not harassed by the cops unless there are complaints
by neighbours. Depending on where you are going, the current law
enforcement attitude may vary. Your best bet would be to check out
Lyla's List at http://www.lyla.com/ . Most, if not all, of your
questions can be answered there.
> That out of the way I have a very stupid question to ask. Never been
> to canada but am going there soon. Is prostitution legal there?
--
Chemguy
**The line between genius and insanity is very**
**fine...Could you please tell me which side I**
**am on???**
You're on the SADIST side of BDSM, marcel the imbecile <{): ~ ) >
From: m...@hotmail.com (Mudbunny)
Date: 31 Dec 2002 06:29:16 -0800
Subject: Re: [Jerry] Re: New Puppy -
but we both work, what's best "get adjusted" strategy???
There is NOTHING wrong with aversions, when necessary, as a last
resort. Do you have kids Jerry?? Do you know people with kids??
Aversion is, at times, necessary. Your kids reach for the element on
the stove once, you tell them no, twice, tell them no. After a certain
point in time, you have two choices. You can either give them a swat
on the bum, and they probably won't do it again, or you let them touch
the element and they WON'T do it again, garaunteed.
> NOW GET THE HEEL OFF OUR FORUM or study
> your FREE copy of my FREE Wits' End Dog Training
> Method manual and CONTRIBUTE to our forum,
> Marcel, or get the heel outta here.
> What's it gonna be? You gonna continue to make
> yourself out to be a CHUMP PUNK LYING DOG
> ABUSING THUG COWARD like your mentors and
> peers, or are you gonna do what's RIGHT for your
> own dog, Marcel?
You see Jerry. We were having an intelligent, open discussion. I like
discussion. I like the back and forth exchange of ideas. That is what
the internet (that is what society in general) is based upon. You have
good ideas!! You obviously believe in them. The others beloieve in
theirs. The best way to get them to listen to what you have to say
(and listen with an open mind) is to do it rationally and calmly. Not
with insults.
Have a Happy New Year
Marcel C. Beaudoin
Are you fixin to provide the ENTERTRAINMENT, mudbunny?:
Subject: (asp) Need Toronto girl..
2 From: mcb26
Date: Thurs, May 7 1998 12:00 am
Email: m...@hotmail.com
Groups: alt.sex.prostitution
> Ps. please do not recommend anybody associated with Lyla or her list. I
> have seen their posts on this group and can not imagine being with those
> ruffians
Unfortunately for you, you have been mislead. While I haven't tried
anybody
directly associated with Lyla, before you make such a quick decision,
you
should check out her Lyla's List at http://www.lyla.com/index2.html
It is pretty damn helpful if you are looking for someone in Toronto
Subject: Req info on San Francisco
1 From: mcb26
Date: Fri, Jun 26 1998 3:00 am
Email: m...@hotmail.com
Groups: alt.sex.prostitution
I will be in San Francisco for the afternoon and evening of the 9th of
July. I
just have a couple questions for all of the experienced ASPers out
there.
What local papers should I look in? Are there any hotels that would
give the
escort trouble when she shows up to get to my room? Any recommendations
for
someone who doesn't have a lot of experience in this field?
I would be looking for a young (mid 20's) escort, with larger than
average
breasts, long hair, that will allow me FULL use of the time. Preferably
she
would be very enthusiastic, enjoy (or give a very good illusion of
that) her
work, and not mind recieving, as well as giving pleasure.
Thanx
3 From: mcb26
Date: Sun, Feb 14 1999 12:00 am
Email: m...@hotmail.com
Groups: alt.sex.prostitution
Try Lyla's List
They show only the most recent reviews, but from what
I've ead, you can't go wrong with Annik, an independant.
MCB
Subject: (ASS) Looking for a story
1 From: Mudbunny
Date: Fri, Dec 6 2002 5:30 pm
Email: m...@hotmail.com (Mudbunny)
Groups: alt.sex.stories
Hey there. I am looking for a story that has stuck in my head. It
involves a husband and wife. They go to a party, and the wife thinks
that the husband has cheated on her, so she ties him up and cheats on
him with someone (his best friend I think???). They then, staying in
the same house, try to work it out.
Can anyone help????
Subject: {ASSD} - Looking for another story
1 From: Mudbunny
Date: Thurs, Apr 17 2003 3:46 pm
Email: m...@hotmail.com (Mudbunny)
Groups: alt.sex.stories.d
Hey. Looking for another story.
This one is a lot more dom/sub. It starts when the guy is young, and
he is playing dom/sub games with a neighbour, where he is the sub. His
nieghbour ties a string or something to his cock to show she owns him.
Later on in life, he goes to work for a web firm, and finds that the
owners are all women and they all dominate him. They have a drug that
enables him to stay hard but not orgasm. It is a very long story. At
some point, his wife dies (is killed by a drunk driver maybe??) and
they comfort him. There is a challenge where he tries to last a
weekend without begging for mercy or somethoing like that. Later on,
the firm is to host a dom/sub website, and the owner of the website is
the girl from his childhood.
Thanks again for your help
Subject: Looking for stories
1 From: Mudbunny
Date: Thurs, Apr 17 2003 2:46 pm
Email: m...@hotmail.com (Mudbunny)
Groups: alt.sex.stories.d
This is a fairly longish story that I am looking for. It hsa a single
guy in it who has a house that is pretty well computer controlled. He
can tell the house to turn on the lights and stuff like that.
A teenager (a neighbour or friend's daughter) comes over and they get
romantically involved. Her friends come over, and I think he has sex
with them as well.
Another story is this. Again, it is a single guy with a house. He has
a neighbour with some sons and a daughter. He pays the sons to do yard
worlk as they get older. As each one goes off to college, the next
youngest one gets the job. Finally, the daughter gets the job. They
get romantically involved as well.
Thanks
Subject: puppy advise please
11 From: Mudbunny
Date: Mon, Dec 30 2002 9:32 am
Email: m...@hotmail.com (Mudbunny)
Groups: rec.pets.dogs.behavior
A friend had a golden retriever with the same problem, towards me!!
Whenever I would show up, she would come up to me, whine, flop on her
back, and then do her best "old Faithful" imitation. Our solution was
to do as was mentioned previously, and greet her outside. After a
while (about 3 years!!!) she grew out of it.
Good luck
Marcel C. Beaudoin
------------------------
Seems you're into "water sports" and Bondage
an Discipline an Sado Masochism, eh marcel
the imbecile lyin DOG ABUSIN SADIST?
Subject: New puppy...a few questions
From: Mudbunny
Date: Tues, Dec 31 2002 1:06 pm
Email: m...@hotmail.com (Mudbunny)
Groups: alt.pets.dogs.labrador
With our puppy (admittedly not a lab, a shih-tzu/schnauzer cross) who
was/is VERY bitey, we found the OW, followed by a pulling away of the
hand/foot whatever when they bite too hard worked. Occasionally, if
they continued, we held his mouth closed with our hand (much like
mother does with her pups) until he started whining. After a couple of
weeks of this, his bites are more mouthing than anything, and it is
only whn he is REALLY excited that he bites too hard that requires us
to pull away.
Marcel C. Beaudoin
From: "The Puppy Wizard" <ThePuppyWiz...@EarthLink.Net>
Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2004 23:43:05 GMT
Subject: Jerry Howe's (The Amazing Puppy Wizard) Free Training Manual
From: Anne (a...@bigfoot.com)
Subject: Jerry Howe's Free Training Manual
Date: 2002-05-17 12:59:05 PST
I adopted my little shepherd mix pup, Ginger about
a month ago and enrolled us in obedience school
so she could learn to be a good house dog.
I love the classes and she is doing very, very well,
but a few of the techniques the trainer is teaching
us make me a little uncomfortable.
In the instances where I tried to use them exactly,
poor Ginger ended up cowering away from me and
looking sad and scared, and that bothered me.
Our trainer's main theory seems to be contained in
what he told us: Your dog has to fear your wrath more
than he looks forward to any pleasure gained by
disobeying you, whether it be to steal food or chase
a rabbit or just ignore a command.
I dont want Ginger to fear my wrath, or be intimidated
by me, but I also want her to listen! A few times, I
ignored the training method we were taught in school,
and tried just gently correcting her and showing her
again how to do what I wanted, along with lots and lots
of encouraging praise and she seemed to learn more
quickly that way than when I was yelling NO at the top
of my voice.
I downloaded Jerry Howe's Wits End manual and
read through it, and so much of it rang true to what
my own experience with Ginger has been. She learns
if I yell and yank her leash, but she is also unhappy
and frightened. She learns if I correct her gently and
encourage her, and she actually enjoys our training
sessions then.
So even though I havent used Mr. Howe's techniques
exactly yet, it seems like they would work very well for
me and Ginger!
I especially was interested in the part about submission
and rolling your dog over, as that is exactly what the trainer
told us to do, even if the dog was scared and snapped when
you did it!
According to Mr. Howe's manual, thats a terrible thing to do to
your dog, and after seeing a cowering little pup in class used as
an example in front of 15 other dogs, I have to agree with him!
My Ginger rolls over all the time, to have her tummy rubbed, and
Im glad I never had to try to force her like the trainer advised,
as now I see I might have harmed her psychologically by doing
that!
I just wanted to say that I was very happy to get the information
Mr. Howe provided, since a lot of it just validated my own doubts
about our trainer's methods and I feel better now about ignoring
some of them. Im going to read through the Wits End manual again
and try out some of the methods there.
I dont care if Ginger becomes a superdog...I just want
her to be a happy house dog that comes when I call
without fail, and doesnt jump on people or furniture or
steal food -- the usual good house dog behaviors.
Im much more comfortable with Mr. Howe's methods
for achieving this.
Has anyone else used this manual? Any feedback
from other users would really be appreciated.
Anne
AND LIKE THIS, marcel the imbecile idiot liar
dog abuser coward mental case phd psychoclHOWEN:
From: Marisa (mari...@hotmail.com)
Subject: Re: Jerry Howe's Free Training Manual
Date: 2002-05-17 13:10:26 PST
Hello-
I agree with you!
I didn't want to scare my dog, or hurt her, or pull on her leash,
or any of that. I wanted her to want to work with me, and do
things with me the right way on her own. Or else I don't have a
dog, I would have a robot dog with a sad face a broken spirit.
I have had a German Shepherd pup. And a couple mixes.
They can be challanging. But let me tell you, the reward
you get from having a trained, happy German Shep far out
weighs the weeks or months or training.
And you DON'T have to hurt them to get them to listen. :)
I am now reading Jerrys manual and working with
it for my second day. My roomates, my boyfriend,
and me have already noticed that I have more "control"
without actually working harder to get it with her.
I really enjoy Jerrys "distraction" methods of sort,
the really are working fast for my Jack Russell.
Stick with it! and hey the worst that can happen
is you instill a good feeling with your dog, who
won't be afriad of you throwing her on her back,
or jerking her leash and possibly creating a
spinal injury :)
marisa
AND NHOWE for TODAY'S post from marcel the imbecile
idiot liar phd dog abusin psychoclHOWEN SEXUAL SADIST:
"Marcel Beaudoin" <marcel....@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:Xns9861819905C37...@130.133.1.4...
> shelly <she...@cat-sidh.net> wrote in
> news:4ppnqtF...@individual.net:
>
>> Marcel Beaudoin wrote:
>>
>>> Aren't prong collars supposed to provide self-correction to the dog??
>>> When they pull, it provides some discomfort, when they stop, it
>>> stops. Isn't giving a correction with a prong collar wrong??
>>
>> Not necessarily. It depends on how the collar is being used. If
>> it's being used to curb pulling on lead, then allowing the dog to
>> self-correct is generally the recommended advice. A prong collar
>> can also be used by the handler to apply a physical correction.
>
> Ahhh, thanks!!
Hey marcel the imbecile idiot liar dog abuser
coward mental case phd psychoclHOWEN?
HOWE abHOWET The Amazing Puppy Wizard drops your
name, marcel the imbecile idiot liar dog abuser mental case
phd psychoclHOWEN?:
YOU WROTE:
> Earlier this week, while I was occupied, Moogli grabbed
> something and ran into the bedroom. When Gen went to
> grab it from him, he growled and bit her on the knuckle. :(
Say "ADIOS, Gen..."
> She freaked out, crying.
INDEEDY.
> Needless to say, he swallowed whatever it waws that he stole.
Yeah...
> I also figured out why he bit her.
Cause you've ABUSED HIM, marcel.
> After talking with her, I discovered that, preeviously, when
> she was taking something from him, if he growled, she would
> swat him.
SEE? SEE?? SEE???
Subject: Re: GL vs. Prong
Date: 2002-12-23 11:14:11 PST
"Mudbunny" <m...@hotmail.com>
A.K.A marcel the clown mbeaud...@caduceonlabs.urka-gurka.com
wrotein message news:ea2dcca7.02122...@posting.google.com
Well, time to add my 2 cents (Canadian, so about half
a cent american) worth. When I first started looking into
getting a dog, I wandered out on the net and found info
on a prong collar, and when I looked at it, it looked like
this HORRID thing designed to hurt dogs.
Then, I saw on some show (don't remember which)
info on choke-collars vs. prong collars. The host
actually put one of each on HIMSELF and tried it.
HE found that the choke collar did what it was designed
to do, choke the living daylights out of whoever has it on.
The prong collar on the other hand provided even
pressure all the way around the neck, and he could
take a lot harder of a pull before it got really uncomfortable.
Marcel Beaudoin
And THAT'S HOWE COME DOGS GO INSANE.
Thank you Mudbunny. Now we know HOWE COME we
got lying dog abusing Thug Cowards hurting dogs and
believing they're not hurtin them...
LIKE THIS:
Local: Tues,Dec 31 2002 11:29 am
Subject: Re: Weekend update (With Marcel and Moogli)
"I think the best thing to do is to let him run and
scream, eventualkly he will learn that they will not
kill him. I will be close and let him hide behind me
if necessary, but I won't pick him up. I will also
ask the trainer to keep a close eye on him when they
play." Marcel C. Beaudoin
From: Marcel Beaudoin
Date: Mon, Feb 17 2003 2:16 pm
Email: Marcel Beaudoin <mbeaud...@caduceonlabs.com>
Lee DeRaud <lee.der...@boeing.com> wrote in
news:ei625v0supaipeng9...@4ax.com:
> I'll bet the *other* three times are well worth the price of
> admission, at least to a third-party observer.
> Lee
To me, it is kinda scary. We have become kinda used to
Moogli wandering around on the couch (except when he
decides that the best place to watch TV is from my chest,
in front of my head) so often the only warning I get of a
successful attempt is seeing him chewing on something,
taking it away from him, and giving it back to Gen.
Unsuccessful attempts are notified by screams of OW!!OW!!OW!!
I have been told that this situation is not funny.
Not one bit.
--
*******************************************
Marcel Beaudoin
Remove urka-gurka to reply
From: Marcel Beaudoin
Date: Thurs, Apr 3 2003 10:49 am
Email: Marcel Beaudoin <mbeaud...@caduceonlabs.com>
"shelly" <scouvre...@bluemarble.net> wrote in news:b6hfjf$5cu7a$1@ID-
39167.news.dfncis.de:
> In news:Xns93525C388ACFDmb...@130.133.1.4,
> Marcel Beaudoin <mbeaud...@caduceonlabs.com> typed:
>> I am a very light sleeper and wake up a couple times a
>> night. Don't know why, I just do (might come from 6 years
>> in the artillery reserves).
> or you wake yourself up snoring!
Entirely possible. I did that on Saturday afternoon. I was
sleeping on the couch in the afternoon, and would wake
myself up with my snoring. Gen was on the otherside of
the apartment working on the laptop. SHe said it was loud
from where she was.
This time, Moogli didn't react to my snoring, he just laid
down with his head jammed into my armpit. (To block
the noise maybe??)
>> I calm him down, and he spent the rest of the
>> night sleeping on my chest (advantage of a small dog) or
>> beside me, leaning against me through the covers.
>
> both of my dogs have vivid dreams (lots of movement and
> vocalization). i've never had one of them wake up afraid,
> though. poor Moogli.
It's the first time he has woken my up with his dreaming.
He was a bit panicked for the first couple of minutes, but
calmed down prertty quickly after that.
--
*******************************************
Marcel Beaudoin & Moogli
Remove urka-gurka to reply
HOWEDY marcel the imbecile idiot liar dog and child
abusing punk thug coward Ph.D. psychoclHOWEN,
"Marcel Beaudoin" <marcel.beaud...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:Xns98289F2F760A3...@130.133.1.4...
> "jordan.mcche...@gmail.com" <jordan.mcche...@gmail.com> wrote in
> news:1156361869.2...@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com:
>>> Have you done anything to make him enjoy being in the crate?
>>> What crate training have you done?
That's sheer idiocy.
>> I made it as comfortable as possible for him before. With bedding,
>> toys, and treats, and even covering it with a sheet for privacy. None
>> of this stopped the whining. I have him eating in his crate, I can get
>> him to go into his crate for a treat. He's not terrified of the crate,
>> he just doesn't like being in it at night when we are there.
> Than you just need to be patient IMO.
That so, marcel the imbecile idiot liar dog abuser Ph.D. psychoclHOWEN?
> He will grow accustomed to sleeping in the crate.
Some dogs DIE from being locked in boxes and ignored when they cry.
> It may take some time, but he will grow accustomed to it.
Ahhh, the voice of EXXXPERIENCE!:
Puppy Nipping/Biting Advice
5 From: Marcel Beaudoin
Date: Mon, Feb 10 2003 12:12 pm
Email: "Marcel Beaudoin" <m...@hotmail.com>
Groups: alt.pets.dogs.labrador
"KeithMorri" <keithmo...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20030210100213...@mb-cu.aol.com...
> My 10-week-old lab, Cooper, has started to aggressively nip and bite.
> He has taken a particular fancy to my hands, fingers, arms, feet, legs,
> pretty much whatever he can get.
> I want to stop this as soon as possible but so far nothing seems to be working.
> Here's what I've done so far -
> 1. The high-pitched "OWWW". Doesn't phase him, actually it seems to make
> him more aggressive.
> 2. Putting my finger down his throat. Also doesn't work.
> He'll stop, gag, and resume biting.
At 10 weeks old, they aren't all that bright. It may take a couple of
weeks/months doing #1 for it to take effect.
Like Montana said, you have to ignore them completely for a couple of
minutes. That is what mom and the other pups would do when they played
too
rough. They learn that biting hard stops play, ergo, biting hard is
bad.
This is what we did with our pup. It took a couple of months, and even
now
he bites hard when we play too rough, but I say OWWW and he stops, and
usually kisses the offended finger/wrist.
Marcel
Rocky <2...@rocky-dog.com> wrote in
news:Fri95B37CF743490au...@rocky-dog.com:
> Marcel Beaudoin said in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
>> Hate to break it to you Matt, but like I said in the e-mail
>> I sent you, there was no forgery. All the posts in this
>> thread attributed to me were written by me.
> Sorry to not get back to you on email (I'm dealing with a ton of
> that right now), but there were a couple of things that led me
> to believe it wasn't you - the main one being that you tried
> relocating Moogli to the basement.
NP. I figured that was it. As for relocating him to
the basement, that was made under a great deal
of duress.
Once I told Genevieve that if she wanted
him to stop crying, that she would be going
down the stairs all the time, the idea got shelved.
Now he is in the bedroom in the corner. Settles down
quite quietly at night, no squirtguns needed any more.
Funny story with that. When I leave for work, Moogli
gets to sleep the rest of the morning in bed with Gen.
Yesterday morning, when Gen woke up, she couldn't
feel him in bed with her so she looked around in a panic.
The first thought in her head was that she had squished
him flat. (I know I know, but as Gen gets more pregnant,
her brains are turning to mush. I expect to come home
one day to find whiteout on the laptop) She looked and
looked in the bed under the covers for him in a panic.
She looked downtairs in the living room to see if he had
gone down to one of the couches and crashed on a pillow.
Finally, she gets back upstairs and sees him asleep (still)
in his cage.
--
Marcel and Moogli
BWEEEEEEEEEEEEEEAAAHAHAHHHAAAA!!!
> Marcel and Moogli
> http://mudbunny.blogspot.com/
"I Know The Difference Between Testimonials And Demonstrated
Examples, So, Please Provide Examples, NOT Testimonials.
ANYONE Can Name-Drop-", marcel the imbecile idiot liar <{); ~ ) >
Hey marcel? Ask Lucy for some EXXXAMPLES of HOWE she CURED
her dog's aggression and separation anXXXIHOWESNESS NEARLY
INSTANTLY, amongst other AMAZING behaviors like fear of thunder?
HOWE'S THAT for NAME DROPPIN, marcel?
LIKE THIS:
"Marcel Beaudoin" mbeaud...@caduceonlabs.urka-gurka.com
wrote in message news:goaZ9.46900$j5.154010@news...
> Well. The weekend gave us some good news and some
> bad news for Moogli. Start with the bad news. Moogli
> gets a participation certificate from his training class.
> The fact that he shuts down with other dogs around him
> makes it really difficult for him to do anything. Stacey
> (the trainer) recommended putting him through another
> session of puppy training. It sounds like a good idea, but
> I don't think I will do it at PetSmart. (Sorry Leah<grin>)
> I don't think that they would be able to offer a class size
> that won't shut Moogli down in the times that we can make it.
> So we are going to look around the area, see if there are
> any other trainers available that might be able to help.
> On the plus side, Moogli has gotten better in his interactions
> with other dogs. While he still doesn't play with them, he doesn't
> run in terror from them either.
> He will walk away.
> A couple times, when they (the other dogs) would come up
> and he would not be able to move, he would growl and bark
> at them. But he would let them sniff him! Granted, he wasn't
> sniffing back and he was curling his lips at them.
> Oh well, you win some and you lose some.
> Marcel
DOG TRAININ AIN'T LUCK... masters degree holder...
The Puppy Wizzzard sez BWWAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAA!!!!
Our university professors are on the horns of a few dilemmas.
The Puppy Wizzzard has determined their methods cause behavior
problems... we're SUIN em for MALPRACTICE and ANIMAL ABUSE.
You won't see them respond here, cause of their INSECURITY
FEAR AND MISTRUST. They don't trust themselves to be RIGHT...
The Puppy Wizzzard is fixin to drop the hammer on the entire
industry all at WONCE.
HOWEDY marcel the clown,
"Marcel Beaudoin" <mbeaud...@caduceonlabs.urka-gurka.com>
wrote in message news:V%QZ9.48724$j5.162977@news...
> Just try to keep an eye on him.
That's HOWE COME the dog will do that BEHIND YOUR BACK.
> When he goes to chew on something you don't
> want, distract him
BRIEFLY, NON PHYSICALLY and INSTANTLY PRAISE for
5-15 seconds and allow the pup to CONTINUE as he
chooses.
> then give him a toy he can chew on.
NO. THAT'S HOWE COME YOU CAN'T TRAIN THE PUP.
HE NEEDS TO THINK OF AND ATTEMPT THE BEHAVIOR
UNTIL IT'S FULLY EXTINGUISHED THRU REPEATED
SUCCESSIVE SUCCESSFULLY DISTRACTED AND PRAISED
BRIEF VARIABLE INTERRUPTIONS AND THE FREEDOM TO
THINK IT THROUGH TILL EXTINCTION.
Too bad you're a phd... marcel the clown... you
add a new dimension to STUPID.
> Once he starts chewing, praise him.
NO. That's IDIOCY. The dog has been taken away from
the problem BEFORE HE CAN LEARN not to DO IT!
> Eventually he will learn that he gets rewards
> from chewing on his toys.
"Oh well, another 19 months and maybe he'll
have outgrown his chewing."
BWWWAHAHAHAHAHAAA!!!
That's HOWE COME the "EXXXPERTS" tell you
to lock the dog in a box.
> With Moogli, it took about a month and a half of this
> before he learned not to chew on shoes.
Takes The Puppy Wizard's 100% CONSISTENTLY NEARLY
INSTANTLY SUCCESSFUL FREE WWW Wits' End Dog Training
Method Students aboHOWET WON DAY to do THAT.
> Now there is only once or twice a week
> that he wanders around the apartment
> with a shoe in his mouth.
BWWWAAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAA!!!
GOOD LUCK, marcel the goddamnedest freakin most
stupidest most undeservedly arrogant mealy mouthed
doubletalking lying dog abusing Punk Thug Coward
clown in town...
BWWAAHJAJAJAJAJAAA!!!
> Marcel
Sun,May 15 2005 9:27 am
Subject: Re: What does "bupkis" really mean
HOWEDY marcel the imbecile idiot liar dog abuser coward
active acute long term incurable mental case phd psychoclHOWEN,
Marcel Beaudoin wrote:
> lucyaa...@claque.net wrote in news:1116000208.026381.280780
> @g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
> > Yeah. "It doesn't work", but allows me to walk my dogs
> > without the bolting, pulling and the wanting the other
> > dogs to diediedie, that TRAINED dogs seem to be so good
> > at doing, every day.
> Hmmm. Let me try to explain it a bit clearer.
Your own dog bit your Mrs. on accHOWENT of you jerk an choke IT.
> By the words that you used, you indicated that if you
> wanted to get your dog to not bother the other dog, you
> use "good Boy" to distract them
No. We DON'T "distract" the dog with PRAISE, we REASSURE the dog.
> and get them to focus on you.
No marcel the imbecile. THAT makes the dog DEPENDENT on
his CON-TROLLER being IN CON-TROLL <{) ; ~ ) >
> The thing is, if your (Jerry's) technique actually worked,
> after the first few times, you woudn't need to distract tham,
RIGHT. But ONLY if we BRIEFLY ALTERNATELY and NON PHYSICALLY
DISTRACT and PRAISE AFTER PRAISE IN ADVANCE, marcel .
HERE'S HOWE The Amazing Puppy Wizard's 100% CONSISENTLY
NEARLY INSTANTLY SUCCESSFUL FREE WWW Wits' End Dog Training
Method Manual STUDENTS all over the Whole Wild World DO IT
EFFECTIVELY NEARLY INSTANTLY GENTLY and FOR FREE, to boot:
"ziggy" <y...@gmx.net> wrote in message
news:98c6b5cb.03012...@posting.google.com...
Well, thanks for taking the time to reply as you
kindly did. Yeah, ok, I think I got to hand it to you
lol So it's back to the manual for a while and I'll
let you know how we get on! I'm still eating my
humble pie so excuse crumbs ~;0)
I really didn't think the rewarding bad behaviour
had a chance in hell but you have proved me wrong......
He was blanking me like crazy the other day, I lost
my rag (Got the flu so on a short leash myself lol)
Gave it a 'Good boy, yeah you really are!' and he
did what I'd been asking him to do for 5 mins straight
away lol Doh!!
Tickles me now when he's up to no good and I say
Good Boy, he turns straight back to my sweety and
he doesn't even know it!
It's applied physchology all the way with Dobies
in particular and I know it's often better to turn a
blind eye rather than confront at that particular
time, I've always distracted rather than corrected
at this young age but I'm going your way!!
Thanks all
ziggy
This humble pie tastes nice actually ~;0)
ziggy
--
> they would be coming to you on your command
No marcel. The COME COMMAND IS the come command, not priase.
HOWEver, you GOT TO PRAISE WITH the COME COMMAND or you'll
not be followin the SCIENTIFICALLY CONSISTENT METHOD, marcel,
and you'll EXXXTINGUISH the INSTALLATION of the COME COMMAND
as a CONDITIONAL REFLEX.
HOWEver, askin the dog to COME WILL NOT TRAIN HIM NOT TO DO THAT.
> *without* the need to distract them first.
You're full of crap, marcel. You got NO IDEA HOWE to install
a conditional reflex or you wouldn't be JERKIN and CHOKIN
your own dog who FEARS you and your brother and GRHOWELS at
you when you carry the paper and GRHOWELED at your brother
for two weeks when he visited on accHOWENT of HE LOOKS LIKE
YOU.
That SEZ IT ALL, don't it, marcel.
> Question for you, what phrase do you use when you want to
> praise your dogs?
Same same, marcel. UNLESS we've CONDITIONED a string of
relaxing reinforcers to be triggered when we need the
dog to RELLY REALLY calm DHONEN INSTNATLY, like when
there's a thunder storm or maybe sumpthin like THIS
> > Wasn't there someone here last year (who writes books
> > with dogs in it) who said essentially the same thing?
That was LeeCharlesKelley who likeWIZE LEARNED HOWE
to understand and use PRAISE according to The Amazing
Puppy Wizard's 100% CONSISTENTLY NEARLY INSTANTLY SUCCESSFUL
FREE WWW Wits' End Dog Training Method Manual <{); ~ ) >
From: "LeeCharlesKelley" <kelleymet...@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 08 Oct 2004 08:14:49 -0400
Subject: Re: Counter Cruising must stop
Leah:>I did try to get my head around your theories, but
I can't buy them. praise *reinforces* the dog's behavior<
I'll give you an easier example: say you're walking through
the park with your dog. She starts walking a little ahead
of you but not isn't intensely focused on something in the
environment, she's just a little restless to move ahead.
You praise her entususiastically and she turns and comes
back to your side. If praise were only a reinforcer, praising
her for moving ahead of you would have made her feel that *that*
behavior was good and reinforced it, right?
She would have been more likely to
stay in front of you than come back.
So in this example how and why did praise have the
opposite effect and *change* the behavior rather
than reinforce it?
From: "LeeCharlesKelley" <kelleymet...@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 08 Oct 2004 18:46:40 -0400
Subject: Re: Counter Cruising must stop
John:>I dunno. In both of these situations, praise stopped the
undesirable
behavior. I would guess that the praise meant more to your dog at that
point than the object he was after.
That's it pretty much in a nutshell. The dog was looking for a way to
relieve mild emotional tension. The behavior was given up voluntarily
when the dog found another source of emotional satisfaction, being
praised. Praise works, as both a reward and a "correction", because it
changes the dog's emotional state. Behavior is caused by emotion.
When
you change a dog's emotional state, you automatically change his
behavior.
John:> What happens if that balance is disturbed. What happens if the
object your dog is going after means more to them than your praise,
Then praise wouldn't have any effect on the behavior. In order to use
praise in this way you have to be able to "read" the dog's emotions.
Although, I take that back. That's not necessarily true. I once got
an
aggressive dog at the dog run to almost give up her aggression by
praising
her every time she growled at a dog who came too close. I wasn't doing
it
on purpose. I was just trying to calm her nerves, but I noticed that
when
I began praising her, her psychic buffer zone started about fifteen
feet
away from where we were sitting. But after praising her for ten
minutes
or so, she'd let a dog get within five feet or less before the growls
started escaping from her throat. She even did the thing with her
nose,
where she'd start to try and sniff the dog from her perch on the park
bench before the growl in her throat got loose.
I thought she was very sweet underneath her swagger and felt that with
enough encouragement she might be able to get off her ass and actually
go
play with some of the other dogs, but her owner thought I was
"encouraging" her aggression and gave us both a good scolding. She was
quite right to scold me. I hadn't been asked to change her dog's
behavior. But the dog hadn't been doing a damn thing when the owner
came
over, grabbed her roughly by the collar, held her snout and shouted in
her
face.
John:>or what happens if you do not praise them for a while when they
attempt to perform the undesired behavior?
I'm not sure I understand the question. Praising a bad behavior, if
done
in the right situation, with the right timing, and with four or five
repetitions, should get the dog to totally give up the desire to
produce
the behavior ever again, at least in that location. Remember, the
desire
to produce the behavior comes from internal emotional tension. If that
tension is resolved through praise (or whatever tactic you use), the
dog
will have learned that the behavior it had wanted to produce didn't get
a
successful result, but that listening to you (or responding to whatever
tactic you used to relieve the tension) *did*.
> > So, I used his "technique" on Pan's stick chewing.
Yeah, but NON VIOLENT METHODS DO NOT WORK for DOG ABUSERS:
Re: Your Training Modality is Driving Your Dogs Crazy
Leah:>>Is there something wrong with being curious?
Morrison:>You're not curious, Leah. IMO, you're just wishy-washy.
Kelley: I don't have the same history that you seem to have with
Leah, but I hardly think being open to exploring new ideas qualifies
as being "wishy-washy". To me it shows intelligence. But then,
from what I've seen, you've demonstrated a singular kind of black
and-white mentality and a highly ignorant closed-mindedness.
Morrison:>You keep thinking that there's some "new" method
out there that will VOILA!, magically transform you into a
great trainer, and overnight, too.
>It just doesn't work that way.
Kelley: Actually, that's *exactly* how it worked with me.
Within the first day of using these techniques I went from
becoming a run-of-the-mill dog trainer to being pretty damn
good, if I do say so myself, and all simply by testing the
techniques, just to see if they worked.
I've said from the beginning that if I can get the kind of
amazing results I do when I'm not really a dog trainer at
heart, but a writer, then someone who's really a dog trainer
at heart would become a far better trainer than I am instantly,
just by using these methods.
Somewhere along the line, however, I discovered a dirty little
secret about the mentality of most dog trainers: they only
*became* trainers because they liked the feeling of power and
control it gave them. If that's the case with you, then you
definitely wouldn't like natural dog training because it
ultimately teaches a dog how to control his own behavior.
In fact in some ways, it forces you to turn your need for
control over to the dog because the method only works when
you put your trust in a dog's natural instincts instead of
fighting against them all the time.
That's because when you put yourself in alignment with a dog's
instincts, the dog will naturally obey you under any and all
circumstances because group harmony and cooperation, when
properly nurtured, are the most fundamental aspects of a dog's
nature.
I came across the following quote recently, and though I have
no idea who Edward Hoagland is, I think what he says here speaks
volumes: "In order to really enjoy a dog, one doesn't merely try
to train him to be semi-human.
The point of it is to open oneself to the possibility of
becoming partly a dog." - Edward Hoagland
Leah:>>This "praise the dog when he misbehaves" thing keeps
coming up, and nobody has been able to explain it to me.
Morrison:>That's because no one can.
Actually, Jerry Howe explains it pretty well.
And as for the incident I related where I praised my
dog when he found a juicy chicken breast and my praise
caused him to drop it, and subsequently got him to stop
scavenging altogether, merely by praising him everytime
he found something, the answer is pretty clear.
He didn't pick up that chicken breast because he was hungry,
he did it because he was looking for something to do that
would satisfy an inner emotional need, relating to his instincts.
When I praised him, suddenly and very enthusiastically, he
dropped the chicken breast because the praise provided him
with more emotional satisfaction than the chicken breast
did at that particular moment.
You could look at this as being an example of pure operant
conditioning, if you like (though you'd be wrong), but it
would still mean that you would have to give up your beliefs
about what praise is and how and why it works, and you don't
strike me as someone who's capable of even *questioning* your
beliefs, let alone capable of giving them up.
Morrison:>every single method out there is based on CC
and/or OC. That's a fact.
No, it's not a fact. The only reason it seems factual to
you is because the basic premise of behavioral science is
tautological in nature (and also because, IMO, you have a
tiny mind).
In my estimation it's more likely that there are little
green men on Mars than that what you think is operant
conditioning is what's really taking place when a dog
learns *anything*.
Dogs do not learn things by association or by repetition or by
trial and error, but through their emotions, pure and simple.
Even Pavlov said: "Positive emotions arising in connection
with the perfection of a skill, irrespective of its pragmatic
significance at a given moment, serve as the reinforcement."
Of course, even Pavlov got it wrong on the most basic level,
since there really is no such thing as a reinforcement, but
that's another story for another day.
---------------------------
> > Before, I would just ask her to drop it/leave it.
No, suja would JERK and CHOKE IT and SCREAM "LEAVE IT"
as per taragreen2's INSTRUCTIONS which she NEVER FINISHED
TEACHIN US on accHOWENT of she got CONGESTED.
> > After, I would tell her she's a good girl when she
> > picked up or was about to pick up a stick.
INDEED. PUNISHMENT and INTIMDIDATION are HOWE COME
you got to CONTINUE SCREAMIN "LEAVE IT" and jerking
and choking the dog someMOORE as suja's POSTED CASE
HISTORY will clearly reveal, as will yours, marcel.
> > Upshot was that I had a very happy, waggy tailed
> > dog who settled down to chew the stick.
BWEEEEEEEEAAHAHAHAHAHAAA!!!
AS OPPOSED to havin a VERY UNHAPPY dog DOIN THE SAME SAME.
> > Clearly, she was relieved that I had come to my
> > senses and recognized that sticks are an essential
> > part of the doggie diet.
CLEARLY, PUNISHMENT DERRANGES BEHAVIORS.
> Hey Lucy!!!
Hey marcel the imbecile idiot liar dog abuser
coward mental case phd psychoclHOWEN!!!
> Obviously, based on your own words "A theory - ANY theory -
> is worthy only as long as it is supported by the experimental
> data. ONE discordant experiment and the theory is in bad trouble. "
INDEEDY! NON VIOLENT METHODS DO NOT WORK FOR DOG
ABUSING MENTAL CASES like yourself, marcel the
imbecile idiot liar dog abuser coward mental case
phd psychoclHOWEN <{): ~ ) >
> In Message-ID: <1122919044.441562.48...@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>
> Jerry's method is in "bad trouble".
HARDLY, marcel. If you EXXXPERT DOG ABUSERS STUDIED
and FOLLOWED THE METHODS PRECISELY you'd GET your own
100% CONSISTENTLY NEARLY INSTANT SUCCESS JUST LIKE
HOWE ALL The Amazing Puppy Wizard's 100% CONSISTENTLY
NEARLY INSTANTLY SUCCESSFUL FREE WWW Wits' End Dog
Training Method Manual Students from ALL OVER The
WHOWEL WILD WORLD REPORT RIGHT HERE.
You know, the WONS YOU CALL LIARS, remember marcel?
> --
> Marcel and Moogli
> http://mudbunny.blogspot.com/
LIKE THIS:
From: "Jerry Howe" <jho...@bellsouth.net>
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 10:46:32 -0500
Subject: Re: New record (Ninnyboy, Jerry Howe) -
"I Know The Difference Between Testimonials And
Demonstrated Examples, So, Please Provide Examples,
NOT Testimonials. ANYONE Can Name-Drop-
HOWEDY marcel the clown,
"Marcel Beaudoin" <mbeaud...@caduceonlabs.urka-gurka.com>
wrote in message news:TqQZ9.48305$j5.162782@news...
> Aww crap. That's what I get for posting at 7:45 when I'm
> not awake yet. Sorry for the crosspost everyone...
"Mudbunny" <m...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:ea2dcca7.0212...@posting.google.com...
> jho...@bellsouth.net (The Puppy Wizard) wrote in message <news:92F3BF...@216.168.3.30>...
> > Sounds like you're doing perfectly...
BWEAAAHAHAHHAAAA!!!
> > That's HOWE COME I'm here...
That, and to RUB IT IN BUT GOOD, to boot.
> > cause what you're being taught is DEAD WRONG.
Yeah... The Puppy Wizzzard likes to HURT.
> > <}TPW;~} >
> OK, it's kinda boring at work right now, so I'll bite.
Can your chin reach your butt???
> Can you, WITHOUT relying on rhetoric or name-calling,
You don't like being proven DEAD WRONG by a uneducated
shade tree shit kicking dog trainer tellin you HOWER university
professors are givin you a bum steer, ESPECIALLY after you
done gone and blown your INHERITANCE on a degree that
The Puppy Wizzzard JUST PROVED his HALF TRUTH...
> AND providing concrete examples,
The Puppy Wizzzard prefers to use DEMON-STRATED
SELF DISCIPLINE as EXXXAMPLE. That's HOWE COME
The Puppy Wizzzard doesn't force bribe punish scold confine
correct and mishandle dogs, cause they're VERY SENSITIVE,
like PHD'S... BWEAAAHAHAHAHAHAAAA!!!!
WELCOME TO WWW WITS' END DOG TRAINING FOOL SCHOOL.
> tell me how what I am being taught is wrong,
START BY LOOKIN AT YOUR POSTIN HISTORY THE PAST MONTH.
> and what I should do instead.
EVERYBODY ELSE SEZ THEY KILLFILED JERRY SO THEY
DON'T HAVE TO ANSWER QUESTIONS AND BE PROVEN
LIARS AND FACE RIDICULE.
> Marcel C. Beaudoin
The Puppy Wizzzard wouldn't RIDICULE a Phd... cause HE'D
PROBALBY FALLA OUTTA HIS ARMCHAIR BUSTIN A GUT
LIKE DIDDLER'S DOG LAUGHIN HIS ARSE OFF AND FALL
INTO YOUR MALARKEY PILED HIGH AND DEEP.
BWAAAAHAHAJAJAJAJAJAJAJAJAAA!!!
> N.B. Having finished my PhD,
Yeah... It'll COME IN HANDY when The Puppy Wizzzard
WRITES HIS BOOK about SHAMING THE ENTIRE INDUSTRY...
YOU'RE THE PUPPY WIZZZARD'S CANNON FODDER,
marcel the goddamnedest freakin stupidest most undeservedly
arrogant mealy mouthed doubletalking lying dog abusing clown
in town... BWWAAHJAJAJAJAJAAA!!!
> I know the difference between testimonials
Testimonials? You mean the SCORES of FREE WWW Wits'
End Dog Training Method Students who've REPORTED 100%
TOTAL NON FORCE CONTROL NEARLY INSTANTLY?
YOU MEAN THE WONS YOU CALLED FORGERIES AND LIES?
> and demonstrated examples,
Oh! The Puppy Wizzzard is gettin the HANG of this universtiy thinkin...
> so, please provide examples,
NO PROBLEMO EL ESTUPIDO!!!
> NOT testimonials.
RIGHT... SCORES OF IDENTICAL TESTIMONALS FROM
ALL KINDS OF FOLK FROM ALL OVER THE WORLD WITH
SERIOUS BEHAVIOR PROBLEMS NEARLY INSTANTLY
CURED, FOR FREE, AND THAT AIN'T GOOD ENOUFF
FOR A PHD?????
You tickle The Puppy Wizzzard... PINK.
> ANYONE can name-drop.
FOR SHORE!
But NOBODY can name drop like The Puppy Wizzzard
when he DROPS THE HAMMER on the entire industry,
startin with PURDUE BEHAVIOR CLINIC FOR MALPRACTICE.
HOWE'S MY SPELLIN?
Re: puppy advise please
Subject: The Core Takeaway I Got From Jerry's Manual
Is This: Make Yourself The Center Of Your Puppy's World -
His Personal Lord Jesus. Never Give Him A Reason To Fear
You Or Think You're Angry. Love The Heck Out Of Him, And
You'll End Up With...
HOWEDY mud,
"Mudbunny" <m...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:ea2dcca7.02123...@posting.google.com...
> A friend had a golden retriever with the same problem, towards me!!
> Whenever I would show up, she would come up to me, whine, flop on her
> back, and then do her best "old Faithful" imitation. Our solution was
> to do as was mentioned previously, and greet her outside. After a
> while (about 3 years!!!) she grew out of it.
Brilliant. The Puppy Wizard has never seen a case of
submissive urination last longer than a couple days...
> Good luck
Yeah. KEEP IT, marcel. Dog training AIN'T LUCK.
> Marcel C. Beaudoin
That's HOWE COME your idiocy takes 3 years to
'train' the dog and Your Puppy Wizard's students
do it in a day or two...
The Core Takeaway I Got From Jerry's Manual Is This:
Make Yourself The Center Of Your Puppy's World -
His Personal Lord Jesus. Never Give Him A Reason
To Fear You Or Think You're Angry. Love The Heck
Out Of Him, And You'll End Up With A Great Dog," Charlie
From: Eric
To: jho...@bellsouth.net
Sent: Friday, November 29, 2002 7:54 AM
Subject: just checking in..
Jerry!
You helped me with my pal Dundee about a year ago
regarding submissive peeing. Just wanted to let you
know he's doing great- he was "cured" in about 2 days
using your techniques!
He has since become the "smartest dog in the world"!
Once I stopped thinking like a human and got inside his
head, I can teach him ANYTHING, usually in a matter
of minutes. Makes me look like an expert dog-trainer.
I rescued two strays last week, cleaned 'em up, wormed
'em, and am getting them their shots. Time to get inside
their heads and teach them to teach themselves how to
be good dogs!
Instead of feeling like "training" is a chore, I look forward
to working with these guys a couple times a day...
Although I don't follow your instructions "to a T", I learned
from you to "think like a dog" and stimulate their brain rather
than beating ass or pinching, or any of that nonsense.
I know damn well I would NOT be loyal to someone who beat MY ass lol!
Well, just wanted to thank you for rattling the bushes
out there and teaching folks the RIGHT way to "train" dogs.
A horseman friend of mine uses very similar techniques in
training his horses- he calls it "natural horsemanship". He
is hated by nearly all the local "trainers" yet somehow he
repeatedly wins at every show he attends. He rarely shows
any more, but goes now and then to rub their noses in it
(pun intended)... Too cool....
Have a great holiday season and keep up the good work!
Eric , Dundee, Sammy, and Maynard
- Show quoted text -
> HOWEDY marcel the clown,
> "Marcel Beaudoin" <mbeaud...@caduceonlabs.urka-gurka.com> wrote in message
> news:V%QZ9.48724$j5.162977@news...
> > "Trentus" <The_Supe...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > news:VeMZ9.35670$jM5....@newsfeeds.bigpond.com...
> > > Why do I love this dog so much.
> That's what gets a lot of dogs HURT and DEAD around here...
> > > He ate through one keyboard cable,
> Tough break. That'll happen if you don't allow the puppy
> to cruize around the HOWES and teach him what's his
> or not... without giving alternate behaviors and substitutes...
> > > but didn't matter,
> It mighta, if he got DEAD over it. That's HOWE COME
> we sometimes use a little Sloan's Linament, if we haven't
> been able to address that sort of thing, USUALLY BECAUSE
> of PAST INAPPROPRIATE EFFORTS to break the dog of
> chewing wires...
> That makes it REAL HARD to CATCH THE DOG in the ACT
> of THINKIN about touching a wire, AND PRAISING HIM for
> THINKING ABOUT IT BEFORE HE TOUCHES it...
> If he CONTINUES to try to touch it, we make a brief variable
> distraction INSTANTLY followed by prolonged non physical
> PRAISE, and ALLOW the pup TO CONTINUE exploring to
> TEACH HIM the wires are not for him... WITHOUT TAKIN
> HIM AWAY FROM IT.
> SAME SAME SAME SAME FOR ANY OTHER BEHAVIOR.
> > > it was an old keyboard.
> Big deal. Don't matter WHAT it was, it's ALL THE SAME
> SAME to the puppy.
> > > Then he ate through a PlayStation2 Controller cable
> > > I'd left out when went to bed.
> Because you hadn't TRAINED him. Takes The Puppy
> Wizzzard's FREE WWW Wits' End Dog Training Method
> Manual Students about two HOWERS to train their pups
> to not touch nuthin that's not for them throughout the HOWES.
> > > That's OK, I mostly play alone.
> Sometimes it's hard to find anybody good enough to play with...
> > > But today he ate through the other controllers cable
> Brilliant. You could have used the two pryor instances as
> training lessons AFTER THE FACT as instructed in your
> FREE WWW Wits' End Dog Training Method Manual.
> > > while the kids were playing with it (they had part of
> > > it lying over the arm of the chair he was lying beside)
> Blame the kids...for you not training EITHER to behave.
> > > The total of replacement parts is greater than the price
> > > we paid for the dog.
> The Puppy Wizzzard gets most of HIS dogs for FREE from
> EXXXPERT trainers who've become afraid of their dogs
> they've abused according to traditional training methods.
> > > Oh well, another 19 months and maybe he'll have
> > > outgrown his chewing.
> YEAH. THAT'S BECAUSE OF HOWE YOU'RE TRAINING HIM.
LIKE THIS:
From: Marcel Beaudoin - view profile
Date: Mon, Feb 3 2003 11:37 am
Email: "Marcel Beaudoin" <m...@hotmail.com>
Groups: alt.pets.dogs.labrador
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"Very Joyful" <veryjoy...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:usgs3vghg3ubkervj...@4ax.com...
> On Sun, 2 Feb 2003 12:11:03 -0500 (EST), rmazz...@webtv.net (Roe M)
> wrote:
> >I have a 6 month old female chocolate lab.....very loving..but.....when
> >playing with her she occassionally will nip my hand and lunge at my
> >shirt sleeve.
> Go alpha on her immediately.
> Get higher than her. (Stand up, right over her.)
> Say NO! in a deep loud voice.
I wouldn't suggest this at all. You want to teach your pup how to play.
When
she was with her mom, mom would turn away and ignore the pups if they
got
too bitey. By doing it this way, your pup associates biting with play
stopping, and she will learn to play the right way. Also, when she
bites
you, use a high pitched voice and go OW!!! This is similar to the yelp
that
mom (or the other pups) made when they were playing...
Marcel
> Teething does not mean destructive chewing. Destructive
> chewing is a SYMPTOM OF ANXIETY, not teething.
> > > The stupid thing is
> YOU GOT ALL THE INFORMATION YOU NEED BUT YOU'RE
> TOO STUPID TO USE IT CAUSE YOU WANT TO PUNISH
> AND HURT.
> > he has A HUGE supply of Pigs ears,
> The Puppy Wizzzard would NEVER give HIS dogs crap like that.
> The Puppy Wizzzard only leaves WON acceptable chew item
> in each area of the HOWES. The Puppy Wizzzard NEVER
> offers the acceptable chew items unless it's for PLEASURE.
> > > twisted ropes, rubber toys,
> Fine...
> > marinated cowhides,
> GARBAGE.
> > > and every other conceivable chewable items
> > > from super soft to extra tough,
> Like your electronics stuff, hunh?
> > > he has no EXCUSE for chewing cables.
> SHORE he does. YOU NEVER TRAINED HIM.
> > > Aaaarrrghhh.
> Stupidity begins in the HOWES... or sumpthin like that.
> > > Trentus
> GOOD LUCK...
> > Just try to keep an eye on him.
> That's HOWE COME the dog will do that BEHIND YOUR BACK.
> > When he goes to chew on something you don't want,
> > distract him
> BRIEFLY, and INSTANTLY PRAISE for 5-15 seconds and
> allow the pup to CONTINUE as he chooses.
> > then give him a toy he can chew on.
> NO. THAT'S HOWE COME YOU CAN'T TRAIN THE PUP.
> HE NEEDS TO THINK OF AND ATTEMPT THE BEHAVIOR
> UNTIL IT'S FULLY EXTINGUISHED THRU REPEATED
> SUCCESSIVE SUCCESSFULLY DISTRACTED AND PRAISED
> BRIEF VARIABLE INTERRUPTIONS AND THE FREEDOM TO
> THINK IT THROUGH TILL EXTINCTION.
> Too bad you're a phd... marcel the clown... you add a new
> dimension to STUPID.
> > Once he starts chewing, praise him.
> NO. That's IDIOCY. The dog has been taken away from
> the problem BEFORE HE CAN LEARN not to DO IT!
> > Eventually he will learn that he gets rewards from
> > chewing on his toys.
> "Oh well, another 19 months and maybe he'll have
> outgrown his chewing."
> BWWWAHAHAHAHAHAAA!!!
> That's HOWE COME the "EXXXPERTS" tell you to lock
> the dog in a box.
> > With Moogli, it took about a month and a half of this
> > before he learned not to chew on shoes.
> Takes The Puppy Wizzzard's FREE WWW Wits' End Dog
> Training Method Students bout WON DAY to do THAT.
> > Now there is only once or twice a week
> > that he wanders around the apartment
> > with a shoe in his mouth.
> BWWWAAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAA!!!
> GOOD LUCK, marcel the goddamnedest freakin most
> stupidest most undeservedly arrogant mealy mouthed
> doubletalking lying dog abusing Punk Thug Coward
> Psycholown in town...
> BWWAAHJAJAJAJAJAAA!!! \
> > Marcel
And THAT'S HOWE COME The Amazing Puppy
Wizard goes: "BWEEEEEEEEAAAAHAHAHAHAAAA!!!}
LIKE THIS:
BWEEEEEEEEEEEEAAAHAHAHAHAHAAAAA!!!
Subject changed: Doggy Do Right?
40 From: Marcel Beaudoin - view profile
Date: Thurs, Feb 13 2003 12:14 pm
Email: "Marcel Beaudoin" <m...@hotmail.com>
Groups: rec.pets.dogs.behavior
"Jayne" <J...@skyline-design.com> wrote in message
news:b2f5cd$1it$1...@slb6.atl.mindspring.net...
> So what's the story here. Excuse my ignorance, I'm new here. Is this a
> endorsed and reliable form of training and does it work for puppy's?
In addition to what the above posters have said, he states that "A dog
is a
dog". That is not true. Even in my (admittedly limited) experience with
dogs, I know that you may have to take different approaches with
different
dogs. Some dogs catch onto training very quickly, some dogs take
longer.
Some dogs catch everything, some dogs are good with everything but
cannot be
trusted off a leash.
Personally, I have tried (with disastrous results) to engage Mr Howe in
a
conversation about the merits of his training program and why it is
better/worse than what others propose. It degenerates VERY quickly into
name
calling. I haven't read any of his posts in a while, but I think I am
Marcel
the clown. Actually, I am kinda disappointed in that. With others he
has
gotten MUCH more imaginative. Others in here have also tried the same
thing,
with the same results.
If you happen to disagree with him, you become, depending on the day, a
thug, a dog abuser, and various other people. Now while I have lied a
coulpe
of times (I swear, I don't know what happened to the chocolate cake!!)
I
have never abused my dog.
As for the training techniques themselves in WETS, I am not a trainer,
so I
cannot comment on that, only repeat what was told to me when I asked
this
question several months ago. Some of the techniques he has "borrowed"
from
established training methods (without a reference or credit) and may
work.
The others, no one knows where they came from. People in this group
have
offered to go to see him with a dog to get it trained, or invited him
down
to their school to train a dog. No response at all.
The people in this group love dogs. If his training system worked, you
can
bet that someone in this group would have tried it and found it worked.
Marcel
Paula
wrote:
>Robin Nuttall wrote:
>
>> if the dog went back to Paul,
>> with his general lack of understanding (and unwillingness to take
>> responsibility for his, or Muttley's actions), he would very soon be
>> right back to square one.
>
>That's my take on it. Training the dog and sending it back to Paul
>makes about as much sense as sending a dog to board-and-train when
>the owner's handling the dog is a significant problem.
But who would take Muttley on even before the lab incident if they
were aware of the facts? That's a no win. Either Paul wants him to
live enough to take him on for real or Muttley is gonna die. It's
just a matter of how and when.
--
Paula
"Anyway, other people are weird, but sometimes they have candy,
so it's best to try to get along with them." Joe Bay
Shelly
>To me, it's a viable last chance.
For sure, but it's not without it's built-in problems.
--
Shelly
http://www.cat-sidh.net (the Mother Ship)
http://esther.cat-sidh.net (Letters to Esther)
I'm not afraid of storms, for I'm learning to sail my ship.
-- Louisa May Alcott
Shelly
wrote:
>But who would take Muttley on even before the lab incident if they
>were aware of the facts? That's a no win. Either Paul wants him to
>live enough to take him on for real or Muttley is gonna die. It's
>just a matter of how and when.
I'm not saying it shouldn't be done or that it couldn't be successful.
But, there is a reason why board-and-train isn't usually recommended as
a cure for problem dogs. If Paul goes that route, there are
significant, built-in drawbacks that need to be addressed by both him
and whoever is doing the training.
I'm not overly optimistic about Paul's leadership abilities (and I think
more than anything, a leader is what Muttley needs), but I'd like to be
pleasantly surprised. Maybe the right trainer/behaviorist will be able
to work with Muttley *and* change Paul's approach to handling him.
--
Shelly
http://www.cat-sidh.net (the Mother Ship)
http://esther.cat-sidh.net (Letters to Esther)
Whom the gods would destroy, they first make mad.
-- Euripides
Paula
>Aren't prong collars supposed to provide self-correction to the dog?? When
>they pull, it provides some discomfort, when they stop, it stops. Isn't
>giving a correction with a prong collar wrong??
Some trainers give corrections with prong collars. It wouldn't be
something you'd see advised a lot here, though, because it isn't a
good idea for people with little experience with or feel for
corrections to start yanking their dogs around by prong collars. I
don't think it is used for run of the mill dogs, either, more for
really insensitive or hard driven dogs who are blowing off other
corrections. I don't think I've ever heard of someone starting off
with a prong correction, certainly not a trainer who is being heralded
as a positive trainer. The CBB crowd, for example, would be
hypocritical to object to Janet's training class methods and then be
okay with yanking Muttley back from food with a prong correction.
Judith Althouse
usually recommended with problem dogs...She also added that she wasn't
saying it couldn't or shouldn't be done.........
If I understand correctly I agree...I don't think there is any thing to
be achieved by seperating a dog from it's owner for training purposes?
Could someone tell me how/why that is beneficial if it is? I am simply
inquiring not disagreeing. I am also inquiring just in general not
specific to Muttley.
I know you are all sick of discussing Paul but I am not clear on
whether Paul is going to keep him if he is rehabbed?
Be Free.....Judy
Shelly
> If I understand correctly I agree...I don't think there is
> any thing to be achieved by seperating a dog from it's owner
> for training purposes?
There are good reasons to do so, but in order for it to work,
the owner has to be committed and motivated to learn to work
with the dog.
> Could someone tell me how/why that is beneficial if it is?
> I am simply inquiring not disagreeing. I am also inquiring
> just in general not specific to Muttley.
It's not uncommon to do board-and-train for sports like
herding and retrieving (I'm sure there are others, too).
These are usually high-level competition dogs, and the owner
is (hopefully) invested in making sure the dog is successful.
The owner/handler doesn't get a free pass, though. They still
have to learn how to handle the dog.
> I know you are all sick of discussing Paul but I am not clear on
> whether Paul is going to keep him if he is rehabbed?
I don't think Paul is clear on whether Paul is going to keep
him if he is rehabbed. That, I believe, has been part of the
underlying problem from the very beginning.
--
Shelly
http://www.cat-sidh.net (the Mother Ship)
http://esther.cat-sidh.net (Letters to Esther)
When I go out into the countryside and see the sun and the
green and everything flowering, I say to myself "Yes indeed,
all that belongs to me!"
-- Henri Rousseau
Janet B
Althouse), clicked their heels and said:
>Shelly posted that there is a reason why board and training dogs is not
>usually recommended with problem dogs...She also added that she wasn't
>saying it couldn't or shouldn't be done.........
> If I understand correctly I agree...I don't think there is any thing to
>be achieved by seperating a dog from it's owner for training purposes?
>Could someone tell me how/why that is beneficial if it is? I am simply
>inquiring not disagreeing. I am also inquiring just in general
In general, I don't think B&T is the way to go. That said, some real
hard cases that someone really does want to do all they possibly can
for, it's the last attempt - having someone skilled to work the dog
every day and live with the dog in such a way that the dog is learning
faster and it's sinking in more.
There are several problems with B&T from the dog's future (any dog -
general scenario) perspective.
The home may not comply with the training that has been done during
B&T and may become more lax about rules and practice than is prudent.
That dooms the dog to fail again and often the result is dangerous.
More problem dog behavior comes from poor rearing practices IMO, than
actual lack of formal training.
As noted in other threads (over the years even), most dog trainers
will get certain behaviors out of a dog easily, that the owners
haven't been able to give even if they have put time and effort in, at
least in anything close to the same time frame. So the dog who does
wonderfully at B&T may not transfer those skills easily to an
ineffective owner.
B&T should ALWAYS include owner/dog lessons as follow up. Without
that, it's virtually useless.
I may not agree with it, but there are people who don't have the time
to put into training, but do have the time to put into maintaining. In
those situations, getting a base training on the dog isn't such a bad
thing.
From an owner perspective, especially being an owner who enjoys doing
things with her dog, and trains, I don't hand my dog(s) over to
anyone, so it would never be an option I would choose. I trust my own
abilities, and if a dog had such major problems that I couldn't turn
it around, nobody else would have much of a chance either.
--
Janet Boss
www.bestfriendsdogobedience.com
Judith Althouse
in obedience and titled three. The point you made Janet is the reason I
would never opt to board and train. You mentioned if the owner is lax
when he gets him back it is all a waste of time... I concur. It may
take me longer than a professional, but I could get the job done. An
owner may need one on one training to get started, but I just don't see
sending the dog away.
About Muttley....at first I was for anything to save his life and then
I thought does he really need to be shuffled off to another stranger
(diddy). Does he need to be isolated? He could be shot if he attacks
other dogs which is quite possible, and then when diddy gets him trained
it is likely no one wants him any way?
That is when I decided my opinion is if Paul can't get the job done
with a behaviorist or however then he has been through enough. Let him
go. If Paul can't get the job done I do not blame him any way. He has
done what he can.
I know there are training techniques that are way beyond me, but I
maintain it is essential to be handled by one that cares for you That
is by no means saying baby talk and a pat on the head is gonna get the
job done, but there is something to be said for working together. IMO
Be Free.....Judy
Paula
> If I understand correctly I agree...I don't think there is any thing to
>be achieved by seperating a dog from it's owner for training purposes?
>Could someone tell me how/why that is beneficial if it is? I am simply
>inquiring not disagreeing. I am also inquiring just in general not
>specific to Muttley.
It can be helpful, but only if the owner follows up after the boarding
time is over. The dog learns the commands and that people are to be
worked with instead of worked against. But if the owner doesn't learn
their part and enforce the same rules/practice the same commands at
home, it will be useless. The dog will simply think that he has to
obey the people at the boarding facility, but can party and do what he
wants at home. They are too good at figuring out different rules for
different places and people for the board and train to be enough to
solve any problems.
I sent Diva off to a facility that boarded her while they worked on
her issues. She was completely dependent on men for everything so
that she could get over her anxiety and fear aggression toward men. It
worked out well. But when she came back, I followed up with the same
exercises with male friends and neighbors. The men had also worked
obedience drills with her, which I continued to work on with her. In
that case, it was a good solution.
Diddy wanted to take Muttley in because she cannot do what needs to be
done at Paul's house for various reasons. But if Paul did not
continue to make Muttley work for his food, etc. and did not have
strong leadership skills and require Muttley to behave as well as
Diddy did, Muttley would just go back to what he was before. He would
behave for Diddy at Diddy's but would misbehave at Paul's with Paul.
That is where the discussion has been. Would there be sufficient
follow-up by Paul or whoever might adopt Muttley (if anyone would) so
that the training would be of use?
Judith Althouse
Thanks for sharing your example of sending your dog Diva off for
training. That was a very valid reason and it worked out well thanks to
your following thru....
I thought I understood why Diddy was taking Muttley.....but I thought
Muttley was up for grabs if he made it thru training....no offense to
Paul, I did not get it that if he went to diddy's he would go back to
Paul. Ok that makes me doubt diddy taking him....how were Paul and
diddy gonna work together? It really doesn't matter now.....I am just
rambling..
I do appreciate and understand a reason to send your dog for board and
train....Good dog Diva....Good job Paula
Be Free.....Judy
The_Insanely_Freakin_Simply...@hotmail.com
animal an child abusin punk thug coward active
acute chronic long term incurable mental case
Paula wrote:
> On Tue, 17 Oct 2006 00:43:43 -0400, "Sionnach" <rhyf...@msn.com>
> wrote:
>
> >
> >"Paul E. Schoen" <pst...@smart.net> wrote":
> >> I have explained that the only time I lost control
> >> of the leash was due to my being in an unbalanced
> >> position that was taught to me, if not by Janet,
> >> then by one of her instructors.
Yeah, with his foot on the leash forcin Muttley into
the grHOWEND while paulie was tryin to force the dog's
elbows DHOWEN <{}: ~ ) >
> >> I regret that this single accident has caused
> >> my wonderful dog to be labeled as dangerous,
No, the ACCIDENT didn't make Muttley dangerHOWES.
Jerkin an chokin Muttley made him FEAR AGGRESSIVE
as paulie had been WARNED would likely happen <{): ~ ( >
> >> which puts me in such a precarious position of liability.
Of curse dog lovers always consider LIABILITY first
when they jerk an choke their dogs into INSANITY <{): ~ ) >
> > "Losing control of the leash" is not what
> > caused the dog to be "labeled as dangerous".
RIGHT. paulie lost CON-TROLL of the leash on
accHOWENT janet's EXXXPERT INSTRUCIONS never
told paulie HOWE to pupperly handle his lead
so's it wouldn't ACCIDENTALLY RELEASE unless
he WANTED IT TO or maybe GOT SHOT on a K-9 site.
> > The fact that he immediately took advantage
> > of your lack of control
Muttley was OBJECTING to paulie FORCIN him.
paulie LOST CON-TROLL on accHOWENTA he was
MISHANDLIN the dog AND the leash on accHOWENTA
THAT'S HOWE janet TOLD HIM TO DO IT <{): ~ ) >
> > to attack and injure another dog is what caused that.
THAT'S PREDICTABLE when you jerk an choke a dog
in front of other dogs or people, paula <{): ~ ( >
> This is the saddest part of what has happened on the AOL group.
What's SAD abHOWET the AOL group is, it's nearly
impossible to SEARH CASE HISTORIES as we do here
The Sincerely Incredibly Freakin Insanely Simply
Amazing Grand Puppy, Child, Pussy, Birdy And
Horsey Wizard's 100% CONSISTENTLY NEARLY INSTANTLY
SUCCESSFUL FREE WWW Wits' End Dog, Child, Kat And
Horse Training Method Manual Forums And Human And
Animal Behavior Forensic Sciences Research Laboratory <{); ~ ) >
> Paul, being new to dog ownership,
paulie AIN'T NEW to BRAINS, paula. paulie WAS DOIN
AS HE WAS INSTRUCTED IN janet's OBEDIENCE CLASS.
The CUSTOM MADE PRONGED SPIKED PINCH CHOKE COLLAR
had a REPUTATION for FALLIN OFF IN CLASS. PERHAPS
THAT'S on accHOWENTA he didn't put it on TIGHT
ENOUGH HIGH UP ON Muttley's neck so's it'd hit
him in the larynx AS IT'S SUPPHOWESED TO <{): ~ ( >
> doesn't know what is normal or not normal behavior
Even a seven year old child knows you DON'T HURT
INNOCENT DEFENSELESS DUMB CRITTERS paula. Didn't
you teach your rug rats THAT too?
No. You taught your rug rats to HURT INTIMDIATE
and witHOWELD attention affection and rewards
JUST LIKE HOWE you raised them on accHOWENTA
you was raised by a MENTAL CASE like yourself.
Abuse is PASSED ON from WON generatiHOWEN to the next.
JUST LIKE INSANITY, paula <{}: ~ ( >
> for even a rescue or somewhat aggressive dog.
THAT'S INSANE, paula:
Sam Corson, Pavlov's Last Student Demonstrated At
UofOH, That Rehabilitation Of Hyperactive Dogs Can
Easily And Readily Be Done Using TLC. Tender Loving
Care Is At The Root Of The Scientific Management Of
Doggys. <{) ; ~ ) >
"...all the highest nervous activity, as it manifests
itself in the conditional reflex, consists of a continual
change of these three fundamental processes --
excitation, inhibition and disinhibition," Ivan P. Pavlov
"Postitive emotions arising in connection
with the perfection of a skill, irrespective
of its pragmatic significance at a given
moment, serve as the reinforcement. IOW,
emotions, not outside rewards, are what
reinforces any behavior," Ivan Pavlov.
"All animals learn best through play." -- Konrad Lorenz
"It is NO WONDER that the marked changes in
deviant behavior of children can be achieved
through brief, simple educative routines with
their mothers which modify the mother's social
behaviors shaping the child (Whaler, 1966). Some
clinics have reported ELIMINATION ofthe need for
child THERAPY through changing the clinical emphasis
from clinical to parental HANDLING of the child
(Szrynski 1965).
A large number of cases improved sufficiently after
preliminary contact with parents that NO treatment
of children was required, and almost ALL cases
SHOWE a remarkably shortened period for therapy.
Quite severe cases of anorexia nervosa have been
treated in own to five months by simply REPLACING
the parents temporarily with EFFUSIVELY LOVING
SUBSTITUTES (Groen, 1966)."
The Methods, Principles And Philosophy Of Behavior
Never Change,
Or They'd Not Be Scientific
And Could Not Obtain
Consistent, Reliable, Fast, Effective, Safe Results
For All Handler's And All Critters,
And ALL Behaviors
In ALL FIELDS And ALL UTILITIES,
ALL OVER The Whole Wild World,
NEARLY INSTANTLY,
As Taught In Your FREE Copy Of The Sincerely Incredibly
Freakin Insanely Simply Amazing
GRAND
Puppy, Child, Pussy, Birdy And Horsey Wizard's
100% CONSISTENTLY NEARLY INSTANTLY SUCCESSFUL
FREE
WWW Wits'End Dog, Child, Kat And Horse Training Method Manual
<{} ; ~ ) >
A DOG Is A Dog;
As A KAT Is A KAT;
As A BIRDY Is A BIRDY;
As A HORSE Is A HORSE;
As A CHILD IS A CHILD;
As A SP-HOWES Is a SP-HOWES;
As A Mass Murderer Is A Mass Murderer.
ALL Critters Only Respond In
PREDICTABLE INNATE NORMAL NATURAL
INSTINCTIVE REFLEXIVE Ways;
To Situations And Circumstances Of Their Environment
Which We Create For Them.
You GET The Critter You TRAINED
In The Problem Animal Behavior BUSINESS
FAILURE MEANS DEATH.
SAME SAME SAME SAME,
For The Problem Child Behavior BUSINESS.
Damn The Descartean War of "Nature Vs Nurture."
We Teach By HOWER Words And Actions
And GET BACK What We TAUGHT.
ALL Temperament And Behavior Problems Are CAUSED BY MISHANDLING
"If you talk with the animals, they will talk with you
and you will know each other.
If you do not talk to them, you will not know them,
and what you do not know you will fear.
What one fears, one destroys."
Chief Dan George
> Muttley's response was not normal
Yeah, on accHOWENTA he was bein JERKED an
CHOKED an FORCED into the grHOWEND by the
leash under paulie's foot jerkin an chokin
him, paula <{): ~ ) >
> and would have happened eventually,
Yeah. It could happen ANY TIME you jerk an
choke a dog on a pronged spiked pinch choke
collar instead of TRAININ IT you freakin
mental case <{): ~ ( >
> no matter what.
Oh, you mean like when you give your dogs bribes, paula?:
"Despite Skinner's clear denunciation of "negative
reinforcement" (1958) NEARLY EVER LEARNING THEORY
model involves the USE OF PUNISHMENT. Of curse,
Skinner has never to my knowledge, demonstrated
HOWE we escape the phenomenon that an expected
reward not received is experienced as a punishment
and can produce extensive and persistent aggression
(Azrin et al, 1966)."
"The IMBECILITY of some of the claims for operant
technique simply take the breath away. Lovas et al
(1966) report a standard contingent reward/punishment
procedure developing imitative speech in two severly
disturbed non verbal schizophrenic boys. After twenty-
six days the boys are reported to have been learning
new words with alacrity. HOWEver, when REWARDS were
moved to a delayed contingency the behavior and learning
immediately deteriorated."
> Beyond that, Paul was in a position of liability
> before he ever even set foot in Janet's class
> because his dog was already what would be labeled
> a dangerous dog from things it had done at his home.
Hardly, paula. Muttley HAD NEVER been dog aggressive
and he DID HAVE WON slight incident with a workman
bangin nails at paulie's HOWES, a pretty common PROBLEM
many of your punk thug coward pals here abHOWETS have
EXXXPERIENCED themselves.
> I'm not sure even if Diddy can rehab him that a rescue
> can rehome him. But at least he'll be a better pet for Paul.
THAT'S INSANE.
diddler is even MOORE PATHETIC than you an janet put together.
> --
> Paula
HOWEDY paula you chronic long term incurable mental case
and lyin dog and child abusing punk thug coward,
Paula wrote:
> On 13 Apr 2006 20:16:37 -0700, "mcquillian" <mcqui...@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> >Of course my first reaction was a feeling of guilt. As a good parent,
> >I consoled my son and eventually everything went back to normal. Once
> >I sat down and gave this scenario some thought I realized the following
> >mistakes I made on my part:
> >
> >1) Give the dog a break. He is still becoming aclimated to his new
> >surroundings and family. He is also only eight months old. He is still
> >learning, as I am sure that Star Wars Lego toys were probably part of
> >his previous upbringing.
>
> Yes, give the dog a break in that you don't assume he is vicious
Dogs AIN'T viciHOWES paula, PEOPLE are viciHOWES.
Like you and your punk thug coward active acute
chronic long term incurable mental case pals.
> or anything like that.
ALL aggression is FEAR. ALL FEAR is CAUSED BY MISHANDLING.
> BUT --- don't let him do that without an
> indication that it is not acceptable behavior.
LIKE THAT, for EXXXAMPLE, paula you dog and child
abusing punk thug coward active acute chronic long
term incurable mental case <{): ~ ( >
> Never let a dog snap at a child if you expect
> to have children and adults in the same home.
Hunh? Have you been takin your ANTI PSYCHOTIC medications
with a little FOOD as INSTRUCTED paula? You've had PROBLEMS
like that pryor. REMEMBER?
> Just tell the dog No!
You mean INTIMIDATE the dog, paula?
THAT'LL make the dog FEAR the child.
> and take him away from the child.
THAT'LL make the dog think the child done sumpthin BAD, paula.
> At the same time, let your son know that his
> behavior was not okay, either.
THAT'LL make the dog and child feel GUILTY paula.
THAT'S what got steve walker's DEAD DOG Sampson DEAD.
REMEMBER paula? You and your punk thug coward active
acute chronic long term incurable mental case pals
told steve to SCOLD his dog for grHOWELIN at his kids.
IT WORKED. Sampson DIDN'T GRHOWEL at steve's kids
nodoGdameneDMOORE. HE ATTACKED OTHER DADDY'S CHILDREN.
> Never let children bend over dogs like that,
> whether you have a dog in your home or not.
That's IRRELEVENT paula.
> It's a good way for a kid to get bit in the face,
Naah? DO TELL? Hey paula? You AIN'T suppHOWESED to
play the FEAR CARD till you give some TRAININ ADVICE.
Scolding the dog and removin the kid AIN'T TRAININ.
> and some dogs might not just scrape the skin.
HOWE many dogs have you murderd for bein AFRAID, paula?
> It is scary to a dog to have a child, especially the
> younger ones who tend to be unpredictable and unsteady
> on their feet, loom over them and come down on them.
THAT'S ABSURD paula.
> Teach your child the proper way to approach all dogs,
> including your own, and you'll be much happier while
> he is much safer.
Sez you, paula? You're a active acute chronic long
term incurable MENTAL CASE, remember?
> > 2) As a standard, it is probably good practice NOT
> > to put your face>down into the face of another dog
> > - especially children.
>
> Definitely. Make sure your son learns not to approach dogs this way.
You've said that already paula. REMEMBER?
> > 3) I should probably lighten up and not push the
> > integration of the new dog into my family so hard.
> > Rome was not built in a day, and neither is the
> > relationship between a new pet and his new family.
>
> How are you pushing the dog's integration into the family?
> As far as starting from day one to have him be part of the
> family and interact with everyone, that is a good thing.
> If you are pushing him past his comfort zone with family
> members he doesn't feel comfortable with, then you should
> still work on it, but do it in a smart way.
And you're gonna teach us the "SMART WAY" paula?
> If he doesn't know what to think of your son, for example,
> instead of pushing them to be kissy kissy with each other,
> have your son toss bits of food to the dog.
"Despite Skinner's clear denunciation of "negative
reinforcement" (1958) NEARLY EVER LEARNING THEORY
model involves the USE OF PUNISHMENT. Of curse,
Skinner has never to my knowledge, demonstrated
HOWE we escape the phenomenon that an expected
reward not received is experienced as a punishment
and can produce extensive and persistent aggression
(Azrin et al, 1966)."
> Don't let your son feed the dog from his hand, though,
> and make sure you are always around to supervise both
> of them whenever they are together.
"The IMBECILITY of some of the claims for operant
technique simply take the breath away. Lovas et al
(1966) report a standard contingent reward/punishment
procedure developing imitative speech in two severly
disturbed non verbal schizophrenic boys. After twenty-
six days the boys are reported to have been learning
new words with alacrity. HOWEver, when REWARDS were
moved to a delayed contingency the behavoir and learning
immediately deteriorated."
Of curse there's PLENTY of folks who WON'T LIKE what
they LEARN as it NULIFIES THEIR LIVES, HOWEver
apupriate handling and training IS a LIFE or DEATH
critteria of ETHICAL BREEDING, MORALS and PRINCIPALS.
AIN'T IT <{) ; ~ ) >
> I have two daughters who have been raised with dogs
> and dogs who have been raised with kids, but even
> with lots of experience on both ends, they were not
> allowed to be together without me until they were a
> lot older.
You mean till they was big enough to jerk and
choke your dogs, isn't that correct, paula.
> > Why did I write this? I don't know. I guess to make
> > myself feel better. I was hoping to hear from others
> > regarding their past experieinces and advice.
The Freakin Simply Amazing Puppy Wizard thinks he's a TROLL.
> > Thank you for your time.
>
> You're welcome.
Thank you paula for misleading him.
> Don't beat yourself up. Incorporate what you learned
> from this situation into how you move on from here.
You mean scold the dog and separate the kid
and tell the kid to bribe the dog with adult
supervision, paula?
> My daughters are watching tv right now snuggled up with
> their own personal dogs that they feed, pick up after,
> train and do everything for themselves. Kids and dogs
> can be a beautiful combination. But they didn't start
> out that way.
RIGHT. They had to learn HOWE to jerk and choke their dogs.
> They needed to learn and to grow more mature and more
> predictable in their movements and control over their
> own bodies and reactions.
You mean on accHOWENT of YOU COULDN'T TRAIN THE DOGS.
> They weren't like this as toddlers, but setting things
> up well then brought them to this point now. You can
> get the same results.
You mean if he waits four more years for his
kid to get big enough to jerk and choke his
dog like HOWEyour kids do, paula?
> I didn't know anything when I started out,
Naaah? DO TELL???
> except for who to ask questions of and how
> to listen and incorporate advice.
Oh? ALL YOUR PALS HERE are LIARS DOG ABUSERS
and ACTIVE ACUTE CHRONIC LONG TERM INCURABLE
MENTAL PATIENTS like youreslf, paula <{); ~ ) >
HOWEDY paula,
Paula wrote:
> On 2 Aug 2005 10:59:25 -0700, lucy...@claque.net wrote:
>
> > I'm willing to listen and discuss whatever you want,
> > but I'd like first of all to get that reference or an
> > admission of the group that the said reference is
> > impossible to get because IT DOES NOT EXIST.
>
> You just do not get it.
No paula, YOU "just do not get it".
> Period.
Not "PERIOD", paula. YOU CAN'T "GET IT" on
accHOWENT of you're a LYIN DOG ABUSING ACTIVE
ACUTE CHRONIC LONG TERM INCURABLE MENTAL CASE.
> Lynn gave you a whole discussion about how praise
> for the behavior that you want extinguished is used
> in aggressive dogs and how that can work with some
> types of aggression but can make it worse with others.
Lucy PROVED lying "I LOVE KOEHLER" lynn is a LIAR
and DOG ABUSING MENTAL CASE, like yourself, paula.
> You need to know more about CC than just what happened
> with Pavlov's dogs. It's not just for food and salivation.
> It's about any good associations with any stimuli.
You mean, LIKE THIS?:
Instrumental / Classical / Operant / Conditioning
CC / OC / IC / -P +P / +R -R / S R / R S
It's ALL The SAME SAME SAME SAME
<{); ~ ) >
HOWEDY People,
Since The Amazing Puppy Wizard ALWAYS gets CONfHOWENDED
tryin to suss the psychobabble in behavioral terminology
HE asked Dr. Von if he could remember what he was taught
in school fifty years ago:
"...all the highest nervous activity, as it manifests
tself in the conditional reflex, consists of a continual
change of these three fundamental processes -- excitation,
inhibition and disinhibition." Ivan P. Pavlov
What's important is, "does Shamu reliably
eat the fish and not the pretty girl?"
George von Hilsheimer, Ph.D., F.R.S.H.
From: "George von Hilsheimer, Ph.D." <drv...@mindspring.com>
Subject: The Amazing Jerry's take on psychobabble
Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 12:13:44 -0400
You might improve the learning of folk who actually
live with and train dogs to do useful things if you
excluded everyone who uses psychobabble from your lists.
I recommend to all of you who wish to taste the flavor
of sensible animal behaviorists to read THE MISBEHAVIOR
OF ORGANISMS, Breland and Breland.
This married pair of psychologists began the long trail
of highly trained animals who are symbolized by Shamu
eating a mackrel from a girl's hand instead of eating
the much more tasty pretty girl who is exactly the size
of the natural food of killer whales, seals. Yum!
The essay, by the way, is a chapter in B.F. Skinner's
summing up book, CUMULATIVE RECORD. They include a
sentence which more or less says, "unless you understand
the personal history of the particular animal, and the
history of this animal's species and group, the developmental
history of the animal, you cannot effectively train the animal.
Pigs root and hen's scratch, if you try to train hens without
scratching or pigs without scratching or pigeons without pecking,
you aren't going to have much success.
A conditional reflex is one which is learned, the original
primitive reflex occurs no matter what the history of the
animal, and is hard wired. If you train the animal to respond,
say by ringing a bell immediately before turning on a bright
light, then you've taught the animal and made his native reflex
of pupil constriction conditional upon the ringing of a bell.
Thorndyke added some terminology to this kind of training
and insisted that when you train the animal to make gross
motor responses that this learning is "instrumental", the
animal takes action and uses an instrument.
The Russian word translated as "conditional" in all other
contexts was mistranslated by Pavlov's American translator,
Horsley Gannt, as "conditioned" and so American psychology
went haring after phantasmagora.
The major theorists for the development of the language of
operant conditioning are Edward Thorndike, John Watson, and
B. F. Skinner. Their approach to behaviorism played a major
role in the development of American psychology.
They proposed that learning is the result of the application
of consequences; that is, learners begin to connect certain
responses with certain stimuli. This connection causes the
probability of the response to change (i.e., learning occurs.)
Thorndike labeled this type of learning instrumental. Using
consequences, he taught kittens to manipulate a latch (e.g.,
an instrument). Skinner renamed instrumental as "operant"
because in this learning, one is "operating" on, and is
influenced by, the environment. Where classical conditioning
illustrates S-->R learning, operant conditioning is often
viewed as R-->S learning since it is the consequence that
follows the response that influences whether the response
is likely or unlikely to occur again.
It is through operant conditioning that
voluntary responses are learned.
One should note that Russian Psychology did very well
without the operant language, and only pettifogging
university professors ought to worry about what kind
of label we attach to the learning. Pfui!
Even Skinner understood this!
And please note if you saw the original movie, THE
MANCHURIAN CANDIDATE, you saw a Chinese psychologist
who was based on Andrew Salter, CONDITIONED REFLEX
THERAPY.
Alas, Salter didn't have a Ph.D., but he basically rescued
us from the long Freudian nightmare and returned psychotherapy
to a scientific basis. Alas, the 2nd movie didn't even cite
Salter as a source. "...all the highest nervous activity, as
it manifests itself in the conditional reflex, consists of a
continual change of these three fundamental processes --
excitation, inhibition and disinhibition." Ivan P. Pavlov
George von Hilsheimer, Ph.D., F.R.S.H.
What's important is, "does Shamu reliably eat
the fish and not the pretty girl?"
George von Hilsheimer, Ph.D., F.R.S.H.
> OTOH, if you don't know what the hell you are doing,
> which you and Jerry don't since you don't even know
> what the hell you are talking about,
You mean we don't know the difference between
OC and CC, paula? IT'S BULLSHIT, paula.
> you will end up giving positive associations
> to negative behaviors
Therebye EXXXTINGUISHING NEGATIVE BEHAVIORS, paula.
> in the wrong circumstances and you will reinforce
> the behavior you want to get rid of.
ALL BEHAVIORS ARE THE SAME SAME, paula.
> You need to know the dog,
A DOG IS A DOG, paula. ALL DOGS ARE THE SAME
when it comes to EFFECTIVE SCIENTIFIC and
PSYCHOLOGICAL CONDITIONING techniques. The
INDIVIDUAL SUBJECT DOES NOT MANIPULATE the
SCIENTIFIC METHOD, the SCIENTIFIC and PSYCHOLOGICAL
CONDITIONING TECHNIQUES MANIPULATE the INDIVIDUAL
to CONFORM to the EFFECTIVE SCIENTIFIC METHODS.
> know what reinforces and doesn't,
THAT'S IRRELEVENT, paula.
> what is underlying the behavior you are addressing, etc.
IT'S ALL THE SAME SAME, paula. TAILORING SCIENTIFIC
METHODS to SUIT the INDIVIDUAL VIOLATES the SCIENTIFIC
METHOD, paula <{); ~ ) >
> or things can get very quickly out of control
Kinda like HOWE they done RIGHT HERE, paula?
> Whether or not trainers have been writing about it
> on the internet, if you actually knew any good trainers
CITE WON please, paula???
BWEEEEEEEEEEAAAHAHAHAHAHAAA!!!
YOU CAN'T!
Your punk thug coward MENTAL CASE pal lying "I LOVE
KOEHLER" lynn TRIED using dr. ian dunbar as an
EXXXAMPLE and PROVED HE TOO, IS A DOG ABUSING FRAUD.
> or worked with them,
Lucy HAS worked with the BEST trainer in the WHOWEL WILD WORLD.
> or even if you actually read this group,
It's ALL IN THERE, ain't it, paula...
> you would know that there is a whole tradition of
> dealing with anxiety and anxiety based behaviors by
> talking happy talk around the anxiety provoking stimuli.
Yeah... IT NEVER WORKS, paula.
> Google it for rbdb or on the big bad web, but if you
> don't know what you are looking for, you will find
> answers to things that are not anxiety based like the
> ones you keep coming up with.
Well then, perhaps YOU will provide a LINK?
> Is Jerry the first to advise that everything is anxiety
> based and everything should be handled with CC?
PROBABLY SO, paula. Better take your ANTI ANXXXIHOWESNESS meds.
> I don't know,
HOWE COME? EveryWON ELSE KNOWS.
> but even if he has company on that one,
CITES PLEASE?
> it is idiotic company.
Dr. Von agrees. Dr. Larry aka TooCool agrees.
Dr. Altman agrees. HOWE COME you DISAGREE with
these HIGLY EDUCATED Students of The Amazing
Puppy Wizard???
> It also doesn't negate the fact that he took
> the techniques from others
Like dr. dunbar, paula?
CITES PLEASE?
> even if he is recommending their use (or misuse as
> the case may be) under different circumstances.
CITES PLEASE? THAT'S what your punk thug coward
mental case pal lying "I LOVE KOEHLER" lynn was
TRYING to do when she EMBARRASSED dr. ian dunbar.
> Get your head out of your ass and your ego in check
> and try to actually figure out what is going on here.
THAT'S EZ, paula. You and your punk thug coward mental
case pals will DO and SAY ANY THING to DEFEND your alleged
RIGHT to HURT INTIMDIATE and MURDER innocent critters and
call it SHELTER and RESCUE <{): ~ ) >
> Spend your time learning about classical conditioning
For WHAAAAT? Lucy FHOWEND a 100% CONSISTENTLY NEARLY
INSTANTLY SUCCESSFUL METHOD which CONDITIONS ALL CRITTERS
JUST LIKE HOWE Dr. Von SEZ above, paula.
> and operant conditioning
You mean PUNISHMENT AVOIDANCE and BRIBERY, paula.
> and the strengths, weaknesses and limitations of both.
The ONLY LIMITATIONS are when you MIX PUNISHEMENT AVOIDANCE
and BRIBER with EFFECTIVE NON PHYSICAL CONDITIONING, paula.
> Look into how both are used by good trainers
CITE WON, paula. JUST WON please???
> with a whole bag of tools
You mean like your pronged spiked pinch choke
and shock collars crates bribes intimidation
and avoidance, paula?
> and the knowledge to figure out when to use which ones.
THERE AIN'T NO APUPRIATE USE OF AVOIDANCE PAIN
INTIMIDATION CRATING BRIBERY or MURDERIN dogs.
> As for your couch chewing challenge, that is just more
> evidence that you are completely missing the point.
The POINT IS the dog is DOIN an UNDESIRABLE
BEHAVIOR and PRAISE will SATISFY HIS NEEDS
and EXXXTINGUISH ANY undesirable activity.
> A good trainer
CITE WON PLEASE, paula?
dr. dunbar FAILED to pass the TEST, accordin
to HIS OWN WRITTEN WORDS, paula. REMEMBER?
> would want to find out why the dog is eating the couch.
NOT when we use EFFECTIVE NON PHYSICAL CONDITIONING
to EXXXTINGUISH ALL undesirable behaviors, paula.
> If your dog has separation anxiety issues,
SA can be CURED NEARLY INSTANTLY. MAYBE FASTER.
LIKE THIS:
"Just Want To Second Jerry's Method For
Dealing With This (Destructive Separation
Anxiety). I've Suggested It To Quite A Few
Clients Now And It's Worked 'EVERY TIME
The Very First Time' - marilyn, Trainer, 33
Years Experience.
AND LIKE THIS:
From: Hoku Beltz
To: The Puppy Wizard
Sent: Thursday, September 26, 2002 6:12 PM
Subject: Mahalo
Aloha Jerry,
Just wanted to let you know that the surrogate toy
technique is working wonders. I have not had a
shredded sheet for over a week now. It is nice
to be able to leave the bed made and come home
to a made bed.
Your program is awesome, but you already know
that. Keep up the good work!
Hoku
=================
"Hoku Beltz" <h...@rsphawaii.com> wrote in message
news:SN2k9.45447$V7.10...@twister.socal.rr.com...
Aloha Sunny,
Just follow the training program to the letter, no matter how
insignificant some of the step seem to be and your pupy will
be a very well behaved dog in a few days.
I would seriously consider backing out of the training classes
as they will conflict with the Wit's End principles.
I went the training route first, and still had problems until I
found Wits' End. Now I have two "new and improved" dogs.
You won't be dissapointed if you follow the program.
Good luck,
Hoku
==================
AND LIKE THIS:
From: Chris Williams (k9ap...@webtv.net)
Subject: Re: Thank you Jerry Howe
Date: 2002-03-26 08:16:19 PST
Engrossing account, Anthony. Our best to Angel
and your family.
A friend, who socializes the kittens I've taken
from a feral cat colony, is using the DDR.
She reports far fewer panic problems than
she's had before.
============================
AND LIKE THIS:
Chris Williams writes:
"The FREE Wits' End Dog Training Method manual
I do find valuable. Much of it I recognize as what
I've always done without thinking of it as "training".
New stuff, I've used. His anchoring technique erased
the last of Mac's fireworks trauma,"
====================
AND LIKE THIS:
Dave Cohen <coh...@total.net writes:
Re: Barking Deterrants Needed...
Hi.
Please understand that I do not know Jerry and have
spoken with him briefly once by email.
I have no stake or interest in the success of his business.
I simply want to thank him publicly for one of his tips, with
regards to separation anxiety.
I thought it seemed far fetched to praise a stuffed animal
and then say good bye to my own dog, but I am usually a
very open minded person, so I tried it. Well, lo and behold-
the damn trick worked!
I think Jerry has some intriguing techniques, and
personally I think everyone who constantly criticizes
him is not understanding his logic.
Thank you Jerry!
********************************************************
AND LIKE THIS:
From: "Regina Guerrero" <>
To: <jho...@bellsouth.net>
Sent: Friday, December 14, 2001 11:42 AM
Subject: Thank You!
> I just wanted to take a bit of time
> to tell you how much I appreciate your product and
> your training methods as well.
> When my little Chihuahua first arrived
> I was overwhelmed with her anxiety and
> her ability to just Bark endlessly.
> I received your product and at first I thought
> I was using it wrong, because my puppy just seemed to
> ignore it.
> But after a week or two, she began to calm down
> considerably as well as act more friendly towards
> people on the street.
> I can't believe the difference I see in my little
> puppy. Your product is a life saver!
> Thanks again for everything.
> Sincerely,
> Regina Guerrero
> then distraction/praise may well have helped it.
YOU MEAN LIKE THIS?:
"Dan Moore" <mooret...@worldnet.att.net>
wrote in message
news:fS2Lc.114567$OB3....@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.
Tracy,
What worked for me, in just one storm,
was to praise the dog after each clap
of thunder, telling him he's a Good Dog!
This is an almost 13 year old Doberman, BTW.
The next time it thundered, he did not even
react at all--you could not tell it was the same
dog as before.
There was more thunder just the other day,
and same thing, nada, nothing, zilch, no
cowering, whimpering, trying to hide at all,
it was that simple.
I got this idea from Jerry Howe, who might seem
to be a "wild and crazy" character, but his non-
abusive way of handling dogs WORKS.
Wonderfully.
Praise.
It's that simple.
Juanita
> If the dog is looking for chewies buried in the cushions,
> praising while the digging is occurring instead of after
> the distraction has stopped the digging will get you a
> destroyed couch and a dog who doesn't know why on earth
> you aren't happy about it
OH? You mean you'd VIOLATE the EFFECTIVE SCIENTIFIC METHODS?
> tearing up every stuffed item in your house,
THAT would ONLY HAPPEN if you told the dog you
WASN'T HAPPY with his BAD BEHAVIOR, paula.
> since you have taught it that you like stuffed things
> to be destroyed. Jerry's stuff is not revolutionarily
> counterintuitive.
You mean, LIKE THIS?:
"Speech is a mirror of the soul: as a man speaks,
so is he." Publilius Syrus, First century B.C., Maxim 1073
"We are what we do."
From: Marshall Dermer (der...@alpha1.csd.uwm.edu)
Subject: Re: Jerry's Dog Training Manual
Date: 2001-07-12 06:49:13 PST
>Paul B wrote:
>> While the concept of shake cans is not new,
>> I haven't read any other advice that says to
>> praise immediately regardless of what the dog
>> does next (the common advice is to praise once
>> the dog is doing a desired behaviour or at least
>> stopped the unwanted behaviour), this is unique
>> to Jerry (and Marilyn) and from my own experiences
>> is an important part of the process.
And how do we know this aspect of his advice is right?
Jerry is not God and his manual is not the Bible.
His advice could be subject to an empirical analysis.
--Marshall
=================
"Marshall Dermer" <der...@alpha1.csd.uwm.edu>
wrote in message news:9ihtee$7ib$1...@uwm.edu...
From: Paul B (NOSPAMpand...@zfree.co.nz)
Subject: Re: Jerry's Dog Training Manual
Date: 2001-07-12 00:13:28 PST
Hello Marshall,
The way I view it from my observation of how
my dogs react is that the distraction interrupts
the dogs thought, not for good or bad, just
interrupts, the dog is therefore distracted for
a second and then will either continue the
behaviour or do something else.
The praise reassures the dog that the sound
distraction is not a threat or punishment,
however if everytime the dog resumes a
particular behaviour it's distracted immediately
(and praised immediately for reassurance) then
it quickly decides this behaviour is not fulfilling
and it ceases.
A dog will offer another behaviour in it's place
and if that is acceptable to us then we let it be
otherwise the distraction continues until a suitable
alternate behaviour is offered.
One example, Sam used to jump up on me
when I arrived home, I would shake can to
distract him right at the moment he was
about to jump up, after about 4 repetitions
he tried sitting and offering me his paw, of
course this was fine so I let it be.
While the concept of shake cans is not new,
I haven't read any other advice that says to
praise immediately regardless of what the
dog does next (the common advice is to
praise once the dog is doing a desired
behaviour or at least stopped the unwanted
behaviour), this is unique to Jerry (and Marilyn)
and from my own experiences is an important
part of the process.
> Thanks Paul! He does recommend praising
> a dog for barking, but he appears to recognize
> that this may not work and so distraction
> is recommended as a back up procedure:
"Estel J. Hines" <ejhi...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:w86dna9lBfN...@comcast.com...
> Until i read the Jerry method of Bark reductioon,
> it went something like this with our 11 month old
> puppy "Yoshi"
> Yoshi: Bark, bark,
> us: HUSH Youshi
> Yoshi Bark, bark......................
> us: Hush Youshi
> Yoshi BARK, BARK, BARK, .................................i
> it stopped when Yoshi got tired barking
> We decided to try the Jerry method
> :Yoshi: BARK, BARK
> US: GOOD Yoshi, Good Boy, who is it?
> Yoshi Bark, Bark
> US: It's ok, good boy Yoshi, We know them
> Yosh without fail, now stops after we say that
> I must say, it is so much more fun, when we
> can praise him, to deal with things like this
> Thanks Jerry
> ps: We are just starting to go thru the Jerry
> Papers, and learn how to live with our son
> "Yoshi", whom we love very much.
> --
> Best Regards,
> Estel J. Hines
==============
HOWEDY Brandy,
"Brandy Kurtz" <KraftyKur...@wmconnect.com> wrote in message
news:2f66e35d.04073...@posting.google.com...
Well I just printed out the Amazing Puppy Wizard info,
so I haven't actually started to train yet.
Today a salesman knocked on the door, and Pokey
was going balisstic. I calmly go to the window to see
who it is, and off-handly say Good Boy, It's a stranger,
Good Boy. Pokey shut right up, gave me a quizical
look, and came and sat beside my feet! OMG, I could
not believe it!
I was totally floored, as this has been his
behavior since a pup. Just wanted to update,
and Pokey and I are hitting the sack...;
Brandy
> If you understand behavioral science and dogs,
Like professor SCRUFF SHAKE dermer of UofWI and
his punk thug coward dog abusing pal dr. plonsky?
> you see where he can hit the mark with a gullible
> idiot or two but piss everyone else off.
You mean those GUILLIBLE IDIOTS who CURED ALL temperament
and behavior problems NEARLY INSTANTLY, by ONLY PRAISING?
LIKE THIS?:
From: "nicole" <To: "Jerald D. Howe">
Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2003 10:46 AM
Subject: Off to a good start!
Hi Jerald, Just wanted to tell you we read
your manual and have started working with
the dogs...
"Chloe" (the one we adopted--a. k. a.
"The Destroyer") has already shown
great improvement! (In Just 1 DAY!)
She responds even better than our other
(better-behaved) dog "Poe".
We tried out the surrogate toy technique, and
not a thing was touched when we got back!
We were both surprised because Chloe isn't
that interested in toys and was still very uptight
about us reaching for the door... anyway, it
seemed to work.
We both work all day today so we'll see
how that goes... Regardless, we will be
cool as cukes when we get home! ;)
I'm just so thankful we might have a chance
to get through to her! We're very excited about
her progress thus far...
Thank You!
Nicole, Michael, Poe and especially Chloe!
__________________________________
Subject: Re: Lab/Rot 11 Months (TEMPER PROBLEMS)
Date: 2004-05-21 19:22:05 PST
"Zack Pellers" <ZackPell...@GUESSWHERE.cc>
wrote in message
dlin...@towson.edu (Derek) wrote in news:
697700b8.0405202039.5c737...@posting.google.com:
Your dog needs to be retrained. Contact Mr. Jerry Howe.
You can start by downloading the free training
manual available on the site above. I used it on
my 4 year old Fila Brasileiro.
When I first brought him home from rescue, he
was similar to the way you decribed your dog.
After using Mr. Howe's training method, the dog
was cured within 72 hours.
-Jack
> AND don't confuse getting sick and tired of trying
> to drag you kicking and screaming onto the clue bus
> as fear.
O.K.... you could always use distraction and
praise to EXXXTINGUISH ANY undesirable behavior.
LIKE THIS:
Date: 5/22/03 11:24:35 PM Eastern
Daylight Time
From: p...@cfl.rr.com
To: Witsend...@aol.com
Well, let me tell you, your Wits' End
Dog Training Method works.
My dog, Dasie, Loves to chase chameleons
around the barbecue on the patio. I
used this system on four different occasions.
When she went out today, she looked
everywhere else but the barbecue.
Amazing, just amazing.
I will write to Amanda about the video.
I am really excited to learn more, and
understand. Maybe just a little reassurance
that I am going about it the right way.
Thanks again
Paul
OR LIKE THIS:
"Ned" <komod...@rogers.com> wrote in message
news:fQIg9.25850$561....@news02.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com...
> Hi !
> Our black lab girl is 3 months old (she will be 4 months
> on the 30th).
> When we first brought her home she had a bad habit
> of trying to nip our faces (including my 3 year old twins)
> during playtime. It drove everyone in the house nuts
> and it brought my little girls to tears as you can imagine.
> We tried saying no, and that would just get her even
> more excited, so we would yell no and that would just
> get her "scared" but still excited. In short it just wasn't
> working.
> So we finally did what Jerry has suggested to you.
> We used a sound do distract her and we would
> immediately praise her.
> I have to say that it worked great. BUT she then
> moved on to nipping at the feet LOL silly little thing.
> So again, we tried no, and then louder no, but again
> it didn't work so we went for the distraction and praise.
> I must say that she is doing great!
> I hope that helps.
> Edyta aka Ned
===================
AND LIKE THIS:
Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2003 9:06 AM
Hello.
I never posted here (or anywhere) before.
I never trained or owned a dog before this
year.
I downloaded the Wit's End, read it, corresponded
with Mr. Howe and trained my dog to come and to
stop barking in a weekend.
Our dog, Jake, had been treated with kindness the
whole time we had him, about 10 months, but his
earlier life is unknown.
I worked on the hot-cold exercise for about 30
minutes when he suddenly "got it". After that
he came to me every time with no hesitation.
I used the cans filled with pennies to teach him
not to bark. If he now starts to bark, I go to the
door or window, say "Good Boy, its' alright" and
he usually calms down right away.
A couple of times I had to get the cans
out again to reinforce the behavior.
We feel a strong bond with this animal
and he is very eager to accept our love.
So with all the vitriolic spewing going on,
I have to believe Mr. Howe is right.
His method worked for us.
I don't know if it would have been quite
as effective if we had tried another method first.
Florence
------------------------------------
But THAT AIN'T NECESSARY if you use THIS:
Date: 2001-11-14 09:13:21 PST
"Yves Dussault" <ydussa...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:3b1110ff...@news1.on.sympatico.ca...
>
> Hi!
> I have downloaded Wit's End Dog Training Method...
> In there there is that trick with a toy about "Separation
> anxiety surrogate toy technique."
>
> Anybody has tried that... I would like to give it a try with
> my GSP (German shorthair.....pointer)
> Comments? Yves Dussault
Yves,
I for one have tried it... in fact I use this all the time. I
just used it last evening while my husband and I went
out to see "The Mummy Returns" (a horrible turkey of
a movie, but at least the house wasn't chewed from
end to end in the meantime).
Yes, it really works. :-) So do the other distraction/praise
techniques described therein.
If you are interested in the manual, you will probably want to
begin the exercises as well.
Regards,
Lisa
===========
LIKE THAT, paula.
> LynnK fears no one
Then HOWE COME she takes ANTI PSYCHOTIC MEDS for
twenty years with NO SUCCESS, paula?
LIKE THIS:
WORDS OF WISDOM
from our own Lynn Kosmakos
1200mg Of Lithium And 50 mg Of Zoloft Every Day
For Twenty Years
I THINK I'M QUALIFIED TO TALK ABOUT LITHIUM
"I, too, have a bi-polar mood disorder (manic-depression)
requiring 1200mg of lithium and 50 mg of Zoloft every day.
I, also, care about dogs and use this forum to learn more,
while happily sharing pertinent information I have learned.
But if I were ever to post such sh*t, I would hope that every
other reader of this group would be rightfully outraged."
"Community is an evolutionary thing that we earn
the right to participate in by observing the easily
understood rules and contributing to in constructive ways."
Lynn K.
---------------------
> and would match dog training skills with just about anyone.
You mean, LIKE THIS?:
lyinglynn writes to a new foster care giver:
For barking in the crate - leave the leash on and
pass it through the crate door. Attach a line to it.
When he barks, use the line for a correction.
- if necessary, go to a citronella bark collar.
Lynn K.
"Granted That The Dog Who Fears Retribution
Will Adore His Owner," lying "I LOVE KOEHLER"
lynn.
"Unfortunately, some confrontation is necessary,
just to be able to handle the dogs. For example,
we need to crate train a dog immediately because
they are usually in need of medical care and they
are in foster homes with other dogs.
It's a safety necessity," lying "I LOVE KOEHLER" lynn.
"You Lying Sack Of Dung.When Have I Ever Said
Anything About Using A Prong Collar, Or Any Collar
Correction At All, To Make Dogs Friendly To House
Cats? Don't bother. The answer is never," lying "I
LOVE KOEHLER" lynn.
lying "I LOVE KOEHLER" lynn writes about kats and dogs:
"This Article Is Something We've Put Together
For SF GSD Rescue
From: Lynn Kosmakos (lkosma...@home.com)
Subject: Re: I have a dog he has cats
Date: 1999/11/20
ginge...@my-deja.com wrote:
> How can I get him to quit chasing the cats.
Okay - this is going to be a bit loooong - Lynn K.
"Put a prong collar with a six-foot leash on the dog. Don't
forget to put the muzzle on the dog. I think a prong works
better than a choke with less chance of injury to the dog in
this situation.
Electronics can be used to create an aversion to cats, but
should be used under the direction of a trainer who knows how
to instruct the owner in their proper use. Electronics can
take the form of shock, sonic or citronella collars. At that
time the owner will train with electronics instead of food or
whatever other reward system was being used."
8) Put a prong collar with a six-foot leash on the dog.
Don't forget to put the muzzle on the dog. I think a prong
works better than a choke with less chance of injury to the
dog in this situation. Have the dog in a sit-stay next to
you with most of the slack out of the leash and let the cat
walk through the room and up to the dog if it wishes (this is
why you have the dog muzzled).
If the dog makes an aggressive move towards the
cat, it must be corrected strongly with both your
voice and the collar.
This is important - the correction must be physically
very strong - not a nag. (PS: not many dogs need
to be corrected at all)."
---------------
Or did you mean your punk thug coward mental case
pal lying "I LOVE KOEHLER" lynn's SKILL as an SAR
dog trainer and "The Glory Of Achieving Difficult
Things With Dogs" lying "I LOVE KOEHLER" lynn.?
Let's have a LOOK SEE at her own POSTED CASE HISTORY
of HURTING and INTIMDATING and RUINING her own SELECTIVELY
BRED HAND PICKED and TESTED SAR candidate JIVE who STILL
can't even work a sheep trial on accHOWENT of SHE CAN'T
CHOKE and SHOCK IT when IT is HOWETA RANGE or on a SAR
site or IN A SHEEP TRIAL?
BWEEEEEEEEEEEEEAAHAHAHAHHAHAAA!!!
> The fact that you keep assuming that she would only
> do so with a choke chain is disingenuous, untrue and
> asinine.
Well then JUST CITE WON INSANCE where your punk
thug coware mental case pal lying "I LOVE KOEHLER"
lynn HASN'T USED pain fear force intimidation avoidance
and MURDER to TRAIN ANY dog for ANY behavior, paula?
> She knows when a choke chain is the best tool
> to use for a certain purpose
You mean to HURT and INTIMIDATE dogs, paula.
> and when praise, treats, voice, tug or any other
> thing would work better with the particular dog.
You mean MIXING PAIN FEAR FORCE and BRIBERY
with PRAISE AFTER THE FACT, paula?
> She works with dogs that you wouldn't be
> able to approach without worrying that
> you would get mauled
SHE MURDERS THEM, paula.
> and she doesn't beat them into submission.
RIGHT. SHE JERKS and CHOKES them on pronged
spiked pinch choke collars and SHOCKS and
beats them with her training stick and LIES
abHOWET IT JUST LIKE HOWE YOU DO, paula you
lying dog abusing mental case.
> She communicates with dogs,
You mean, LIKE THIS:
lyinglynn writes to a new foster care giver:
For barking in the crate - leave the leash on and
pass it through the crate door. Attach a line to it.
When he barks, use the line for a correction.
- if necessary, go to a citronella bark collar.
Lynn K.
"Granted That The Dog Who Fears Retribution
Will Adore His Owner," lying "I LOVE KOEHLER"
lynn.
"Unfortunately, some confrontation is necessary,
just to be able to handle the dogs. For example,
we need to crate train a dog immediately because
they are usually in need of medical care and they
are in foster homes with other dogs.
It's a safety necessity," lying "I LOVE KOEHLER" lynn.
"You Lying Sack Of Dung.When Have I Ever Said
Anything About Using A Prong Collar, Or Any Collar
Correction At All, To Make Dogs Friendly To House
Cats? Don't bother. The answer is never," lying "I
LOVE KOEHLER" lynn.
lying "I LOVE KOEHLER" lynn writes about kats and dogs:
"This Article Is Something We've Put Together
For SF GSD Rescue
From: Lynn Kosmakos (lkosma...@home.com)
Subject: Re: I have a dog he has cats
Date: 1999/11/20
ginge...@my-deja.com wrote:
> How can I get him to quit chasing the cats.
Okay - this is going to be a bit loooong - Lynn K.
"Put a prong collar with a six-foot leash on the dog. Don't
forget to put the muzzle on the dog. I think a prong works
better than a choke with less chance of injury to the dog in
this situation.
Electronics can be used to create an aversion to cats, but
should be used under the direction of a trainer who knows how
to instruct the owner in their proper use. Electronics can
take the form of shock, sonic or citronella collars. At that
time the owner will train with electronics instead of food or
whatever other reward system was being used."
> like the rest of us
INDEEDY! And THAT'S HOWE COME you MENTAL CASES can't
post here abHOWETS nodoGgamenedMOORE, paula <{); ~ ) >
> who don't just see dogs as object to manipulate do.
Lynn K. wrote:
"I used to work the Kill Room as a volunteer in
one shelter.) But their ability to set their own
schedules and duties causes a great deal of
scheduling overhead.
And it takes effort and thought to ensure that
volunteers get the meaningful experience that
they work for.
Someone has to be responsible for that
Volunteer Program, and it is best done
by a non-volunteer."
Lynn K.
"I worked with one shelter where I bathed and groomed
every adoptable dog on intake. I frankly felt that the
effort/benefit equation was not balanced for some of the
older/ill poodle/terrier mixes we got in badly matted condition.
Should I have refused to groom them?
Or even more pertinent - I was one of the people who
had to make the euthanasia decisions at that shelter."
Lynn K.
--------------------------------------
NHOWE here she's gonna lie abHOWET IT:
Baghdad Bob <Baghdadbob> wrote in message
<news:04591a2c5d469ef78d35c89ed4ed58f7@TeraNews>...
Lynn, looks like he got you there if these quotes are true.
In the posts below you take responsibility for making those calls.
In your post above, you state you do not make those calls.
Which one is it?
> We see training as teaching a dog how to communicate
> with us and paying attention to what the dog is trying
> to communicate as well as teaching the dog to pay attention
> to what we are trying to communicate to it.
THEN HOWE COME SHE HURTS INTIMDIATES AND MURDERS DOGS JUST
LIKE HOWE YOU DO, paula you freakin MENTAL CASE?
> And, as for challenges, Jerry has repeatedly been
> asked to meet up with people in real life
Like Amanda and her two Pit Bulls, Leprechaun
and his FEAR AGGRESSIVE RESCUE dog, and Professora
Daniel and her dog Sunsine, and Aimee and Axel, paula?
> and show how his training would be better,
> even by someone who lives in his area.
You mean leah, paula. SHE'S A DOG ABUSING LYING MENTAL
CASE, like yourself and lying 'I LOVE KOEHLER" lynn.
HER ENDORSEMENT WOULD BE THE KISS OF DEATH, paula.
REMEMBER?
> He has repeatedly refused.
ON ACCHOWENT OF: "You're JUDGED BY the company
you keep. When you lie with PIGS you'll awaken
STINKIN like 'm. When you get bagged for LYING
you're MARKED FOR LIFE," The Puppy Wizard's DADDY.
> Apparently, he prefers to only give the same advice
On accHOWENT of IT'S ALL THE SAME SAME when you
RELY on EFFECTIVE SCIENTIFIC and PSYCHOLOGICAL
CONDITIONING techniques, paula.
> and quote the half percent that it works on
"IT WORKS" on ALL dogs, as Dr. Von SEZ, paula.
> because they had the right dog
A DOG IS A DOG, paula.
> with the right issues
ALL BEHAVIOR and TEMPERAMENT PROBLEMS are CAUSED
BY MISHANDLING, paula. THAT'S HOWE COME YOU FEAR
and HATE The Amazing Puppy Wizard, paula.
> for the right reasons
On accHOWENT of DECENT PEOPLE DO NOT HURT
and INTIMDIATE innocent dumb critters like
HOWE you and your punk thug coward mental
case pals do, paula <{): ~ ) >
> and then ignore everyone else.
YOU MEAN THE MENTAL CASES ON THE CLUE BUS, paula?
> You can do that on the net, but it doesn't fly when
> you are in real life with real dogs and cameras rolling.
BWEEEEEEEEEEEAAHAHAHAHAHHAAA!!!
> Lynn, OTOH, trains real people in public areas and
> is not afraid who sees what she is or is not able to
> accomplish and what methods she uses to accomplish what
> she does.
THEN HOWE COME SHE LIES ABHOWET IT, JUST LIKE
HOWE YOU DO, paula, you dog abusing mental case?
> See a difference?
NOPE. You're all cut off the same cloth, paula.
THAt'S HOWE COME you can't post here abHOWETS
nodoGgamenedMOORE. REMEMBER you freakin lying
dog abusing punk thug coward MENTAL CASE?
> Those lurkers out there with questions hopefully can.
INDEEDY.
AND THAT'S HOWE COME YOU'LL DO AND SAY ANYTHING
to DEFEND your alleged RIGHT to HURT INTIMDIATE
and MURDER innocent critters and call it RESCUE
and SHELTER and FOSTER care. REMEMBER NHOWE?
> I hope they can at least figure out that there are
> trainers here as well as family pet training novices
> who can actually name dogs they have worked with and
> what they have done with them.
You mean LIKE THIS?:
"J1Boss" <j1b...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040324071828...@mb-m18.aol.com...
> He was next to me and I could see his neck
> muscles pulsing. He didn't even blink an eye.
> Janet Boss
"sionnach" <rhyfe...@msn.com> wrote in message
news:c3qi15$2biuoh$1...@ID-45033.news.uni-berlin.de...
> "J1Boss" <j1b...@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:20040323173916...@mb-m17.aol.com...
> > > I can't imagine needing anything higher
> > > than a 5 with it, even with an insensitive
> > > dog like a Lab.
An INSENSITIVE DOG???
> > I can't remember what model of Innotek I have, but
> > I had apointer ignore a neck-muscle-pulsing 9.
> I'm starting to specialize in frou frou lap dogs. :}
You mean, like BICHONS?:
"It was kind of funny, in an absurd way. The rabbit
was completely still, eyes open and glazed, dried
blood in his ears and mouth, with his back legs
stiffening quickly.
It was her pet rabbit, not a wild bunny, so
that made it much harder for her.
And he was killed by bichons.
Her dogs had torn it apart. My one student who had
shown up (another weird thing about the night) and I
had to continuously check for heart and bowel sounds
for her, until she could accept that the rabbit was dead.
(The rigor mortis in his back legs she attributed to "pain").
Full moon.
Canine Action Dog Trainer
http://www.canineaction.com
> Then she mentioned the names of her dogs,
> and I immediately remembered them.
YOUR STUDENT, leah.
> I will always remember the dogs.
Yeah. You and ed w of PET LOSS dot COIN.
The Amazing Puppy Wizard has DISCREDITED
nearly EVERY trainer and behaviorist in the Whole
Wild World and has CURED ALL temperament
and behavior and MOST HEELTH PROBLEMS by
simply NOT ABUSING CRITTERS CHILDREN SP-
HOWESES EMPLOYEES EMPLOYERS FERAL
KATS and VAGABONDS.
But The Amazing Puppy Wizard relentlessly
DEFENDS the OPPRESED and ATTACKS
ABUSERS with THEIR OWN WRITTEN WORDS.
> And as long as they're treated like dogs,
A DOG IS A DOG, dog abuser:
"The Methods, Principles, And Philosophy Of Behavior
Never Change,
Or They'd Not Be Scientific And Could Not Obtain
Consistent, Reliable, Fast, Effective Results
For All Handler's And All Dogs,
NEARLY INSTANTLY,
As Taught In Your FREE Copy Of The Puppy Wizard's
FREE WWW Wits' End Dog Training Method Manual,"
The Puppy Wizard. <{} ; ~ ) >
> Jerry can name every negative thing he has heard or
> made up about the people here,
CITE WON LIE, paula.
> yet he has no memory or space in his billion line posts
> to talk about a single dog that he has trained or is
> training personally
You mean OTHER than Ron Flanagan aka Leprechaun,
Amanda, Professora Daniel and Aimee and Axel?
From: AIMEE (countrygirl0...@yahoo.com)
Subject: House training and such...
Date: 2003-10-08 16:18:56 PST
I've been having a problem with my dog, Axel,
relieving himself in the house while I'm away
from home.
I've used TPW method's, and yesterday I was out
for 12 hours, and Axel didn't have one single "accident".
Today, I had hoped that the results would be just as
good - and they were (I was out for 11 hours).
The problem began when, as a puppy, Axel would
relieve himself in the house and I would point at the
mess and tell him "NO" or "Bad Dog".
That made him afraid to relieve himself in the house
or infront of me.
After I got TPW's training manual, I corrected my
mishandling of these instances.
When I came home to an "accident", I would simply
drop a can near the area and ask Axel "What's that?"
Then I would clean it up - with out showing him I was
the least bit upset about the mess, and when he looked
at the spot I would tell him "Good boy, you're a good dog".
This has been an ongoing problem, and thanks to the
Puppy Wizard, we've finally got it taken care of...
Also, Axel LOVES the cat's litter box...He enjoys the
"snacks" he can find in there...I followed TPW's methods
by alternating sounds and praising him while or before
he sticks his nose in it, and today, he's been going into
the room with the cat box and barking. That's because
he's thinking about getting into the box, but he knows he
shouldn't.
Thank you, Jerry, for all you help. You've been a
blessing to all of us.
AIMEE
===================
From: AIMEE (countrygirl0...@yahoo.com):
I own a black an tan coonhound. We got him as a puppy, and
due to constant mishandling (pulling on his lead, negative
corrections, and the occasional use of a bark collar) I ended
up with a very anxious dog.
I couldn't leave him home alone, I couldn't crate him, I
couldn't even take my dog for walks because he feared
EVERYTHING.
I was going to have to get rid of him if things
didn't turn around.
My husband and I searched the internet for answers -
AND WE FOUND THE PUPPY WIZARD.
For all of you disbeliveers out there HIS METHODS WORK!
I've followed his manual, and we now have a dog
that can be left home alone, that heels on command,
that can go outside and NOT be afraid of everything
he sees.
Not only have his methods helped our dog, but our
marriage has gotten better. We had fallen into a
rut - constant bickering and tension, we never laughed
or had FUN together - but now, with the same mindset
used in THE PUPPY WIZARDS dog training, our
communications channels have opened, and we now
work together instead of against one another.
For all the "Literalists" out there, NO WE DID NOT
TEACH EACH OTHER TO SIT, STAY, OR HEEL.
We simply eliminated the nagging and the acting
out to get NEGATIVE attention from one another
since we weren't getting the POSITIVE attention
we wanted.
So, it's been proven - THE PUPPY WIZARDS METHODS WORK.
It's up to you to accept them. Yes, there's alot of
blame that we have to accept, but once we realize that
we've caused these problems to arise, we can strive to
make things better.
AIMEE
=================
> or even to say a thing about liking dogs.
BWEEEEAAHAHAHHAHAAA!!!
> I guess he learned his lesson when he tried to
> pretend he trained protection dogs and all he could
> come up> with was how he trained them so "well" that
> their temperatures spiked to dangerous levels and they
> were shitting themselves.
You mean LIKE THIS?:
That's been verified as NORMAL by lying frosty
dahl (who would't REVEAL the INFORMATION when
it was being discussed by your MENTALLY ILL PAL
marybeth [who likeWIZE posted HUNDREDS of daily
and weekly warnins abHOWET The Amazing Puppy
Wizard, at least until Soup reearched her MENTAL
ILLNESS CASE HISTORY and she ain't been seen here
since!]) and Misty, who's DEAD DOG Peaches GOT
DEAD on accHOWENT of you and marybeth and ed w
of PETLOSS.CON LYIN to her not to TRUST The
Amazing Puppy Wizard, who researched it on her
own:
"Studies from the Sports MEdicine center at Auburn
indicate that the temperature of a working Lab routinely
rises to 106 in the course of about ten minutes' work.
The dog then needs to cool off as sustained high
temperature can be dangerous.
Amy Dahl <a...@oakhillkennel.com> wrote:
"There are some interesting studies of body temperature.
A working Lab's body temperature apparently goes up to
about 106 within the first ten minutes of work."
The ONLY DIFFERENCE is, those dogs are having
a visceral response to being BEATEN CHOKED and
SHOCKED, not on accHOWENT of their kindly gently
handler is being THREATENED, paula... you lying
dog abusing punk thug coward MENTAL CASE.
> So, now that making things up backfired,
CITE WON, paula... JUST WON please?
> he has learned, through OC, by the way, not CC,
> to stop making up training stories.
CITE WON, paula. JUST WON.
> And he is left with no dog stories at all.
The Amazing Puppy Wizard DON'T NEED to "TELL
STORIES" paula, HIS 100% CONSITENTLY NEARLY
INSTANTLY SUCCESSFUL FREE WWW Wits' End Dog
Training Method Manual Students ALL OVER The
WHOWEL WILD WORLD REPORT the MOST INCREDIBLE
stories. YOU CALL THEM LIARS and FORGERIES.
REMEMBER NHOWE?
> He has no idea how to communicate with a dog,
BWEEEEEEEEEEAHAHAHAHHAAA!!!
> only how to babble at one.
YOU MEAN PRAISE, paula?
> Even where CC works, it is sad to think
> that is all dogs are about.
You mean, that DOGS JUST WANNA HAVE FUN,
like KIDS an LADIES, paula?
> I personally don't believe he lives with any
THIS AIN'T abHOWET The Amazing Puppy Wizard's
dogs, paula. THIS is abHOWET YOUR ABUSED DOGS.
> and I certainly don't believe he has ever loved any dogs.
The Amazing Puppy Wizard is COLD AS ICE, paula.
> --
> Paula
From: "Larry M Male" <larrymm...@yahoo.com
To: "The Puppy Wizard" <ThePuppyWiz...@EarthLink.Net
Sent: Saturday, August 21, 2004 12:44 PM
Subject: Re: Cocker with ear infection
Thanks Jerry,
I enjoyed the scientific discussion debunking
operant conditioning for teaching thinking animals.
Humans think by forming concepts. All of their
knowledge is held as a hierarchy of concepts
(more complex concepts defined in terms of
simpler ones). In my mind, to treat such a being
as a B. F. Skinner robot is criminal.
I don't believe that dogs hold their knowledge
as concepts as do humans but their ability to
think is unquestionable.
Operantconditioning doesn't utilize an animal's
ability to think. When you show a dog what you
want them to do, then they are able to grasp the
problem; they are able to think about it and to
integrate possible solutions into their mind.
But with operant conditioning a trainer is actually
hiding the problem to be solved from the animal.
For example, it is good for your dog's attention to
be upon you. When heeling, he will notice your
movements, your subtle hand signals, your facial
expressions and he will immediately sense your
next command. But the clicker trainers have forgotten
the reasons why a dog's attention should be upon you.
So they condition a dog to unnaturally cock his head
to stare upward at you. The dog doesn't appreciate
the meaning of this and neither does the trainer. Since
this unnatural behavior is prized in the obedience ring,
the clicker trainers are motivated to condition it.
Don't you think that the "high five" hand shake that
clicker trainers use to motivate novices looks like a
Nazi salute (an unthinking reflex). It is not at all like
a warm hand shake from a loving companion, is it?
Some of your testimonials bring tears to my eyes. I
love to see how some "thinking" people appreciate
your methods.
--Larry
WONZIES And TWOZIES The Most Particular
Smug Hip Young Urban Suburban Metro Yuppy
Pet Puppys From Generations OF Generations
Of Selectively Bred Hand Picked Of Champion
Lines Bred And Delivered By Hand To The Hip
Young Metro Urban Sububan Yuppys And The Kids
Named Them Themselves, WONZIES an TWOZIES!
I bought The Family 2 identical twin PUPPYS,
WON fuzzy WON smooth WON white an WON
brHOWEN they was brothers and sisters from
a breeder of litters who had enough puppys to
please the most particular smug hip young urban
suburban metro Yuppy pet puppy buyers needs
for generations of generations of selectively bred
hand picked of champion lines they was bred and
delivered by hand to the hip young metro urban
sububan Yuppys and the kids named them themselves,
WONZIES an TWOZIES!
HOWE GRAND life is for HOWER pups an HOWER kids us
smug young hip urban suburban metro Yuppies!
That made HOWER cottage complete, WON sports car
for ME, WON SUV for the Crew, WON small boat for the
lake and a scooter or two for times when we ain't got
NUTHIN better to do, WON boy, WON girl an WON
Mrs. and ME and the white picket fences with all that
could be and all of the fixins an us an HOWER two
designer PUPPYS an KIDS safely ensconsed behind
electronically charged security bars sharin good times
unconditional love and a weiner or cheeses and pats
in trade for HOWER share of sloppy cold wet puppy
noses an kisses and scratches when we're in the mood
and got changed HOWETA of HOWER clothes and
prepared for the mud and whatever STUFF the pups
put in their MHOWETHS even when there wasn't nuthin
layin abHOWET <{) ; ~ ) >
We went to the vets to care for HOWER pets like
HOWE generations of generations of responsible
smug young hip urban suburban metro Yuppy pet
puppy owners should do. We was told to INNOCULTE
SCHOOL SPAY an NEUTER HOWER pups an to
teach them manners an grow themselves up an spare
them from sex and inbred cur pups and chop off their
ears tails an thumb nails and what not and lock them
both up in matchin designer cages called dens for
HOWEstrainin HOWER new family of four NHOWE six
two adults two pups an two kids livin as equal family
kin in the good life as generation of generations of
smug young hip urban suburban metro Yuppie puppy owners
in the information superhighway computer age will do.
Of curse we'll do ANY THING to heelp HOWER pups on accHOWENT
of they're JUST LIKE HOWER KIDS an that's enough it's all up
to us generations of generations of selectively bred hand
picked smug young hip urban suburban metro Yuppys doin that
American thing that we do for all livin creatures and others
less capable critters dependent on us and on the advice of
HOWER vet got the stuff we needed for pets he had them on
hand and fitted the stuff we'd need for the kids to train
them an such, it'll be good experience for the kids to
learn respect for livin critters and sold us pronged spiked
pinch choke shock and spray collars and halters and leashes
and set us all up with his friend the certified behavior
therapist a university trained smug young hip urban suburban
metro Yuppy pet puppy owner's psychological guide to the mind
of the smug hip young urban suburban metro Yuppy pet owner's
puppys for generations of generations of selectively bred hand
picked smug young hip urban suburban metro Yuppy pet puppys and
kids to learn responsiblilty with.
The trainer sez two pups is too much for the kids an
for us responsible smug young hip urban suburban
metro Yuppy pet puppy family pet puppy family pack.
It'd been better he sez if we'd had calmer pups in their
stead or had experience pryor of curse and didn't we
know pups should never be alone an must be supervised
at all times and advised that we must give WON of
them up but not a problem we'll maybe make a few
bucks in the TRAINsaction since we fixed up the pups
at his friend the vets an next year we might get to try
and invite another new pet on trial a foster puppy to
see what we get when this WON is all grown up an
responsive to ME an taught right from wrong and can
train the new puppy like his mom woulda done him an
his sis had they grown up with their kin instead of in
this the manner of priveleged smug young hip generations
of generations of hip young urban suburban metro Yuppy
responsibe puppy pet family HOWESES filled to the brim
with kids and kats and stuff two pups can't be left alone
in to fend for themeselves on despite generations of
generations of selectively bred hand picked smug young
hip urban suburban metro Yuppy's pet puppys doin it as
had generations of generation of selectively bred hand
picked smug young hip urban suburban metro Yuppy's pet
puppys had done for generation of generations of selectively
bred hand picked smug hip urban suburban metro Yuppy pet
puppys have done...
So NHOWE WONZIE'S TWO and HOWER new TWOZIE'S WON an
thinks he's grown up and can try dominating WON and
WONZIE LOST an TWOZIE WON who REALLY IS THREEZIE not
meanin to CONfHOWEND everyWON but pryorities gotta
be set and the pups need be kept far apart and THAT
ain't so EZ if they're able to see his brother or
sister but it don't matter noHOWE on accHOWENT of
they ain't never had known gender or nuthin like that
since they left their mothers they lost the body parts
they didn't need on accHOWENT of that's the responsible
thing for generations of generations of selectively bred
hand picked smug young hip urban suburban metro Yuppy's
pet puppys to do.
The pups they'd be GREAT if they could stay in their
crates and not whine and cry an fight with their brothers
or sisters and crap the HOWESES or murder their kats
and bunnys and bite the kids or mailman or neighbors
or their critters and get in the way of the fast day to day
pace the lifestyle of the generations of generations of
selectively bred hand picked and tested smug young
hip generations of generations of urban suburban metro
Yuppy pet puppys we've catered to followin the BEST
advice from the best resources to be had the net of
information superhighway endorses.
The trainer the vet sent us to sez we got LUCKY
again as TWOZIE who's THREEZIE is all trained
and responsive to ME an liver an cheeses and chokin
for proofin. He'll find IT a HOWES with his friend whom
he's pleased to tell us with confidence his pal has dealt
with other recalcitrant puppies with dominant alphalpha genes.
He's taken at least three or four of the worst dogs
he's known like this second third puppy we bought and
took to the vet and got what you get when you listen to
folks who tell us to jerk an choke and lock HOWER puppys
in boxes and coax them with bribes and withold praise and
affection and surgically mutilate and shock and spray
aversives and choke and ignore them locked in boxes and
teach HOWER kids to hurt and intimdiate them and call it
trainin an socialization of the most particular smug hip
young urban suburban metro Yuppy pet puppy buyers needs
for generations of generations of selectively bred hand
picked of champion lines they was bred and delivered by
hand to the hip young metro urban sububan Yuppys and the
kids named them themselves, WONZIES an TWOZIES!
PerryStal...@Animail.Net
Obedience for Puppies
The Amazing Puppy Wizard
Jan 25, 3:42 pm
> From: "Jodi" <breme...@earthslink.net>
>Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2005 18:51:45 GMT
>Subject: Obedience for Puppies
>More questions from a soon-to-be Aussie owner.
HOWEDY jodi,
Well that's PREDICTABLE. You'l be havin
MOORE QUESTIONS as long as you rely
on the advice of these lying dog abusing
punk thug coward mental cases.
>My husband and I are getting an 8-week puppy on Feb 5th.
DESPITE that Scott & Fuller and The Amazing
Puppy Wizard AGREE that pups belon in their
new HOWESES at six weeks if possible.
> The obedience classes we want to take
LeeCharlesKelly was just EXXXPLAININ HOWE
COME the METHODS "taught" in "OBEDIENCE
CLASSES" like janet boss and leah's CAUSE ALL
TEMPERAMENT and BEHAVIOR PROBLEMS.
You can SEE THAT in THEIR OWN POSTED CASE HISTORIES.
But you WON'T LOOK on accHOWENT of
you're gonna have a SHOWE DOG like the
WON susan fraser JUST RUINED thans to
her TRADITIONAL CHOKING SHOCKING
EAR TWISTING and BEATING.
> her to start around the beginning of March.
Your dog would be FULLY TRAINED in a few
days if you DIDN'T DO NUTHIN that these
lying dog abusing punk thug cowards and
active long term incurable MENTAL CASES
do to their own dogs.
> So, for the month before classes start I want
> to be working with our puppy and teaching
> her the basics (come, sit, etc)...
Oh. So you're askin LYING DOG ABUSING
MENTAL CASES HOWE to do that?
> but I really don't have a good idea of where to
> begin (basically, I need the obedience classes
> as much as the dog, because I don't know how
> to train her).
Well then, just READ marie's or melanie's
or mauijnp's or diane bergman's POSTED
CASE HISTORIES.
> What kinds of things can I do with my puppy
> that will be a good foundation for the classes
> we will attend
You gotta start by fillin HOWET your MENTAL
HEELTH CASE HISTORY and current CRAZY
PERSON STATUS and FILE IT with CEO /
DIRECTOR MENTALLY ILL AFFAIRS and
ACTIVITES aka Soup so's someWON DON'T
HURT YOUR SENSITIVE FEELINS.
> (positive reinforcement)?
You mean bribery and avoidance.
> What are some common mistakes that
> people make when trying to train a new puppy?
Posting questions here abHOWETS and gettin trainin
and handling advice from PROFESSIONALS and VETERINARIANS
are usually their first AND LAST, mistakes...
BlueMoon Wrote:
Hello MOCrab.
Well, I'd take your advice and go thru the killfile as you have
recommended below, but Jerry's system Is WORKING wonders
with these two puppies in a matter of days. He may be abusive
and short-tempered with some people out there because, quite
frankly, I think he cares more about the dogs that the owner's
feelings and feels so strongly about it, it's aggravating to have
"experts" discount his methods.
My husband just got back from taking these 15 week old pups
for a walk, who now respond remarkably well to the "Zena-Zoey-
sit-good-girl!" phrase now when only said once no matter where
they are.
They also respond to the come here command. We trained them
(granted, out of order of the instructions) with the pennies in the
cans only two days ago to come to us when called. I've since
backtracked to do the exercises in the proper order.
They are calm and well-behaved and impress the Hell out of anyone who
sees them. "You're kidding, they're only 14 weeks old and they are THAT
well behaved?" Yessiree Bob, they are, and we've only had them for 12
days and have been training them (correctly for 3 days.
We still have more training exercises to do, but why fix something if
it's not broken??>?? These dogs are happy, we don't have to yell at or
scold them, they are learning to be secure and to pay attention to us
for approval and not out of fear.
I can only assume some might be threatened by this manual's methods
because it goes against all human logic on how to train a dog. It
certainly didn't make any sense to me, but I thought what the heck,
try it (even tho I still have to remind myself what to do because
my previous limited experiences with dog training were SO
DIFFERENT to the point that I almost felt like I needed to take
my brain out of my head and put it back in backwards!!!.....).....
BUT THE SYSTEM WORKS!!!
How in the world could someone just "make
something up" and it WORK?>??>?
My husband was very doubtful about this method when I told him I wanted
to try this. His dad was a vet, and certainly didn't use these methods
with the parade of dogs they had as kids. But now even HE has to admit
we're doing something right here, as our stress and frustration levels
have lowered and EVERYONE is much happier around here, especially
the dogs!
I really don't think people are used to the notion that you can train a
dog and it NOT be stressful or difficult. It's easy IF you do it just
like the manual says. It might be easier for some to NOT do it now and
go with the concept of control rather than respect and understanding,
because that's the way WE are used to thinking and heaven forbid WE
change OUR way of thinking and admit we've done some counterproductive
things in the past, right?
The results I'm seeing here with these puppies speaks volumes and
discounts what anyone tells me otherwise. This Wit's End manual is now
in a binder and we're sticking with it.
BlueMoon
------------------
Date Oct 3 2005
Hi Jerry,
It is now 1:130 A.M. and I just finished reading your manual.
Of course I will need to read it many more times in order to
apply the techniques when I get a dog.
I found it even better than I thought it would be
and I had high expectations for it.
It is absolutely new , original, TOTALLY overdue for
the world to learn about to stop all the violence,
fear and abuse.
It is interesting how they have us in a SPELL (source
peoples emotional language legacy) and even with the
best of intentions while doing these awful techniques
that feel violent and inside the heart recoils from
doing them, there is the little voice that say's 'But
it is for the dog's good' and so I have to get tough
and not be a sissy and give in to the horror I am
seeing in the dog and feeling that in my moral compass
this feels wrong, and yet continue to betray myself
and the dog because all the "experts" who say they
love dogs ALL agree that I must do this and what do
I know, they say they love dogs they are "love covered
in fur" as Uncle Matty say's.
He loves dogs to say this so I must be too soft hearted
to recoil from what obviously is my duty toward the dog.
You really broke the spell for me.
It is ground breaking work and I am exited to absorb
it as in the first reading there are so many oh wow
moments that the exercises need to be studied at
another time as the impact of the first reading makes
it so mind altering that the emotional response of
FINALLY SOME SANITY is so strong that the details
of 'the how' to needs for me to be studied later many
times to internalize it so it is done correctly.
Thank you for the amazing manual.
Go jolly,
==========
Blue is doing fantastic. Thanks to his wonderful personality, genetics
and Jerry's help. I speak with Jerry a couple of times a week about his
progress and fine tuning his training. Blue sits, heels, is totally
toilet trained, comes, knows 'down', stay and all kinds of things like
'lets go for a walk'.
He is pure joy and has made my heart glad and full of puppy love.
He loves walking in the forest trails and swimming in the cool and
refreshing lake. His 'daddy' takes him for his final walk every evening
at 7 P.M. Then it is off to bed. He sleeps till 7 A.M.
It is nice to be able to sleep all night without getting up for a pee
pee a few times with him. In the first few weeks I had to take him
out at night, but now he is able to sleep all night. He is like a
tranquilizer.
I keep asking Jerry if Blue is a genius, as he is so clever and
obedient.
Her tells me this is the nature of a dog that has not been abused.
Blue is super good looking and so smart. He learned to sit weeks ago.
When he needs to go outside to relieve himself, he lets me know by
going to the door and woofing. One thing that I have noticed using
Jerry's methods is that Blue is very calm.
Most dogs are hyper and chew furniture and have bad habits. Blue
only plays with his toys. He knows the difference between his toys
and furniture and does not nip.
I was surprised that he does not want to go on the furniture. He likes
to play on the floor and outside. We sit outside together and he sits
by where I am reading. He may chew a toy or just hang out in the
shade. The whole town loves him and people are impressed with his
manners.
Show Dog Bark
------------------
Subject : The Wits end dog training method - THANK YOU!
Dear Jerry
I have just got to thank you so very much.
I had a gutful of the sadistic crap that gets dished out as
"dog training", I read a bunch of books that just seemed wrong
and then I started trawling the web and found it was worse -
bulletin boards full of people, advocates of pin-down techniques
and shock collars.
I just couldn't believe it. Some of the methods the so called
"professionals" were championing turned my stomach and in the
absence of a voice of reason many people seemed to be taking
the advice. Was this the only way to ever train my dog?
Many of the methods thankfully I never had the stomach to
even try, it all just seemed like constantly pushing against
a resisting force.
Then I stumbled across a post from the puppy wizard - it
was honestly like an epiphany for me. In an instant the
bullshit facade that holds together these peoples brand
of "logic" just crumble away, suddenly I saw very clearly
indeed.
I then read many of your posts and eventually
after some searching found the manual.
I read it and felt like a weight had been lifted.
Now me and my furry best friend have found our
path, one that we both seem very happy with.
We are both very much in debt to your kindness
and compassionate wisdom.
I think it was Gandhi who said that "you can be in a minority
of one, but the truth is still the truth". These words seemed
so appropriate after finding your methods in a sea of countless
posts promoting repetitively violent and abusive training.
On top of that I felt a little of the pioneering spirit of the
internet, like someone had reached out across a great distance,
put a hand on my shoulder and said.."it's cool, just love your
dog, listen to him ".
Thank You, over and over Thank You! You have given me and a
young and very enthusiastic Border Collie a way to a much better
life together.
Long live the Puppy Wizard!
Cornwall UK
PS - Keep up the good work, keep telling it HOWE it really is.
--------------------------
I remain respectfully, humbly yours,
Jerry Howe,
The Sincerely Incredibly Freakin Insanely Simply
A-M-A-Z-I-N-G
G-R-A-N-D
Puppy, Child, Pussy, Birdy And Horsey Wizard <{) ; ~ ) >
HOWE MAY I SERVE YOU <{} ; ~ ) >
Amy Dahl
Paula wrote:
> It can be helpful, but only if the owner follows up after the boarding
> time is over. The dog learns the commands and that people are to be
> worked with instead of worked against. But if the owner doesn't learn
> their part and enforce the same rules/practice the same commands at
> home, it will be useless. The dog will simply think that he has to
> obey the people at the boarding facility, but can party and do what he
> wants at home. They are too good at figuring out different rules for
> different places and people for the board and train to be enough to
> solve any problems.
That is the fear. Dogs are great discriminators, and plenty will take
advantage of a situation. I find, though, that the most common follow-
up from my customers is "Max fit right back into our family as if
he'd never left--but now he obeys." IME it's actually a pretty small
minority who can't get their dog to keep responding as trained.
We also encourage customers to call the first time their dog does
something they don't anticipate or don't like. We do a fair amount
of troubleshooting over the phone. When you know a dog really
well, it works.
People who expect "training" to be indelibly stamped into their
dog are bound to be disappointed by board training. I can see its
working well for dogs with issues, though. I've trained plenty of
dogs with minor issues such as being totally oriented to bratty,
manipulative and/or aggressive behavior with no interest in working
cooperatively. I think the absence of most of their learned cues
associated with bad behavior, plus my near total control of the
environment, is a big advantage.
> Diddy wanted to take Muttley in because she cannot do what needs to be
> done at Paul's house for various reasons. But if Paul did not
> continue to make Muttley work for his food, etc. and did not have
> strong leadership skills and require Muttley to behave as well as
> Diddy did, Muttley would just go back to what he was before. He would
> behave for Diddy at Diddy's but would misbehave at Paul's with Paul.
> That is where the discussion has been. Would there be sufficient
> follow-up by Paul or whoever might adopt Muttley (if anyone would) so
> that the training would be of use?
I think there would have been, in the Border Patrol situation.
My impression was that diddy's whole idea was to make Muttley
over into a dog with a job.
Amy Dahl
Sandy in OK
board-and-train. In all three cases it was the same trainer - a woman
I've known for close to 30 years, traveled across the country with and
trust to be fair to dogs. I sent Alice for stockdog training with her.
Al is a very high drive, instinctive dog (whom I got for those
qualities) but living in town and seeing stock a few minutes a couple
of times a month wasn't making it for her. She already had a few
started level titles, but I wanted to get her to a point where she
could see stock and still think. Getting worked every day for two weeks
really helped her. Another time was a very well-to-do woman who was
trying to place her very well show-bred and expensive 5 month old puppy
whom she'd bought from across the country, into rescue. What she
thought owning a puppy would be like, i'm not sure. She wasn't
interesting in training or working with the pup. Basically overwhelmed
by a 5 month old puppy and a 5 year old child who was being jumped on
by said pup.. I insisted she contact the breeder, which she did, and he
would have taken the pup back. She asked if I'd foster the pup and
train it for her and give it back trained. I said no, but here's a
number. Not ideal, but at least the puppy will come home with some
skills, and there's a responsible breeder to fall back on if they still
feel overwhelmed. Situation number three, just a few weeks ago. Very
nice couple with very large adolescent poodle. He's just started
hospice and she's just had major back surgery - neither of which they
planned on when they got the youngster. She's honestly not physically
able to train the dog at this time, though she's willing, and the dog
is a wonderful, sweet youngster who just needs a bit of basic training.
And quite honestly, they could use having more time to cope with the
serious issues in their lives without having to worry about the daily
needs of a sweet but rambunctious pup. And, my friend does work with
owners after the training. If I felt a problem was relationship based
or that the owner was the biggest part of the problem (other than
laziness in the case of the Aussie pup) I don't think I'd recommend it.
But if its just a matter of basic manners (or more intensive
specialized sport training than the owner can do) in some cases it's
not a bad option. The big caveat is that one has to be able to have
full confidence in the trainer. When I am working with people and their
dogs, the owners are there. They need to be able to be comfortable with
the methods and tools that i use (if they aren't hopefully they will
speak up) Nothing I do is in secret or hidden from them. Because they
are right there the whole time. Participating. IF you send your dog
away, you may not know what methods that trainer is using. If you would
condone their methods, what they are going to do to your dog. Certainly
there are good trainers (like my friend) but I've heard some horror
stories too - and not from sources who would be spreading urban
legends. Sandy in OK
Sandy in OK
Don't know, can't see doing it myself but try this on. Since apparently
the dog was having problems with becoming overstimulated by being
popped with a prong collar (which Paul said he was doing) maybe the
"behaviorist" wanted to see exactly what he was dealing with - would
the dog redirect? Accept the correction? What? Not training at that
point, but evaluation. And while I don't like the idea, certainly a one
time correction is no worse than what Muttley had already been through.
>Sandy in OK
Sandy in OK
I keep reading B&T and thinking "bridge and target"
Paul E. Schoen
"Sandy in OK" <celea...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1161402110.3...@f16g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
I'm just going to copy what I posted on the AOL board, which was an attempt
to answer similar questions there. I think there is some sort of hysteria
about any sort of physical control method, including prong collars, Haltis,
GLs, or choker chains. The fact is that, my dog at least, would pull on the
choker chain until he, well, choked and gasped. A prong collar is an
improvement because at worst it might produce an irritation or superficial
wound, rather than internal damage. The new large prong collar I just
bought is very nicely made with smooth rounded prongs that should not
scratch the skin, and indeed I was able to walk Muttley up and down the
trails in back of my house without excessive pulling. He responded to my
command to go "easy" down the hills, and on the way back he did a nice
heel, for which I commended him. For a big, tough, physical dog, I think
you need a means for applying a negative correction just to get his
attention, and then use positive methods when he is actually listening.
Here's my post:
I tried to explain as factually as possible what went on for a period of
over an hour. This guy was one of three people recommended to me by
someone, probably through one of the rescue sites I contacted, or from my
posts in the newsgroup. As usual, a few words can have many different
meanings to those who read, and without an immediate clarification, as in a
real conversation, things can become exaggerated.
This trainer simply took time to read my dog's initial reaction to him
approaching, while I held him on his leash, quietly sitting by my side. He
instructed me how I should act, and he seemed to gain Muttley's trust by
offering small bits of food. He said that a stressed or fearful dog will
usually not accept food, so it may be a sort of barometer of how he is
feeling. I am not quoting him, and my memory is not perfect. I'm just
trying to describe an hour's worth of a very intensive learning experience.
This was not an official "evaluation", and not a "first lesson". However, I
think a little bit of both was accomplished. After the initial introduction
and period of socialization (my words), we walked close to my house and I
sat in a chair while the trainer held Muttley's leash. I had already fitted
the prong collar (which I had repaired). It was not the trainer's first
choice. I think he recommended a GL or Halti, but he seemed to have a well
balanced view of many possible tools. He also had a squirt bottle, but
never used it.
The only time he seemed to need to snap the leash was when he was
demonstrating how to elicit consistent desired behavior, which is basically
for the dog to pay attention to the handler or owner. For a dog like
Muttley, the little snap on the prong collar was barely enough to get his
attention; it was in no way painful or cruel. The trainer was simply
demonstrating that he could control the dog by associating good things
(like food and attention) with good behavior (mostly paying attention
rather than acting on impulse), and not so good things (like the mild
correction) for doing unwanted things.
Using the food was not in any way (as far as I could see) a test for food
aggression. As far as I know, he was tested for that at the rescue, and my
friend also did a test by taking his food bowl while he was eating. This
was soon after I got him. Some time ago I posted about Muttley being gentle
when I hand fed him bits of food, but would "lunge and snap" when taking a
rawhide treat. He did not seem truly aggressive, but more excited to start
chomping on it. When I brought a chew to one of Janet's classes so she
could observe the behavior, of course Muttley refused to take it at all.
Remember what I said the trainer told me about a fearful dog not taking
food?
I think that's about all for now. I'm sure somebody will take this over to
RPDB and then blame me for being a troll or otherwise try to make
themselves look better at my expense. I read another post here about
"deflamation[sic] of character". That was probably a typo, but truly some
people's internet "characters" need to be "de-flamed". :)
Paul, Muttley, and Photon
TaraG
"Sandy in OK" <celea...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1161402110.3...@f16g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>
It wasn't a "one time correction". Paul said as much in his post clarifying
the "evaluation v. training" issue.
Having read not only Paul's first post describing how it was done, as well
as his subsequent clarification that it wasn't at all an evaluation
technique but more of a training tool, this sounds like so much
rationalizing after the fact. I found it funny that so many people jumped to
conclusion after conclusion, bending over backwards to justify unfair prong
corrections as "evaluation techniques" for more than 10 pages, when those
same people were castigating using prong corrections in other (and, frankly,
far more fair) contexts. And even after its use has been clarified, the back
bending to justify it is still taking place, apparently.
I also think its odd that after Paul posted that he was taught to pop the
leash in order to get a desired response, the only replies he got were of
the "you're off to a great start" variety....from none other than the person
who created the drama (about how corrective methods created this problem) in
the first place.
O brave new world that has such people in it.
The good news is that, for whatever reason, Paul seems to be taking this
trainer's advice seriously and is changing his approach to working with
Muttley. I don't really care *how* that came about (since Janet's and my
techniques are nearly at opposite ends of the spectrum, its certainly not
that I was "pushing" him with that agenda), just that he's finally doing
it.....since training and controlling Muttley was *always* the only chance
that dog ever had. That's why the only "pushing" he was getting was the push
to find a way....ANY way.....that he would be willing to train the poor dog.
If that's finally happening, then great. Seriously great.
Tara
Tara
Shelly
>Since apparently
>the dog was having problems with becoming overstimulated by being
>popped with a prong collar (which Paul said he was doing)
Except that's not what Paul described. Muttley attacked the Lab while
Paul was forcing the dog into a down, not popping the collar. Which
makes perfect sense to me. Some dogs *do* react badly to being forced
into position, but I wouldn't expect the same sort of reaction from a
quick collar pop.
--
Shelly
http://www.cat-sidh.net (the Mother Ship)
http://esther.cat-sidh.net (Letters to Esther)
In order to change a color it is enough to change the color of its
background.
-- Michel Eugene Chevreul
Shelly
wrote:
>I think that's about all for now. I'm sure somebody will take this over to
>RPDB
Ah, I do love the smell of piping hot irony in the morning. Thanks!
>and then blame me for being a troll
Okay, attention seeking, then. I mean, why else would you keep coming
to a place you claim is full of meanypantses, to rekindle a fire that
has very nearly died down? At this point, any bitching you do about how
mean and unreasonable people here are to you, or how we will not let the
subject go, is meaningless, because you have done more than your fair
share to reanimate the monster.
--
Shelly
http://www.cat-sidh.net (the Mother Ship)
http://esther.cat-sidh.net (Letters to Esther)
My ass contemplates those who talk behind my back.
-- Francis Picabia
Handsome Jack Morrison
<pst...@smart.net> wrote:
[...]
>I think that's about all for now.
Jeez.
The guy just won't go away.
He's like Al Gore.
He's everyfreakingwhere.
--
Handsome Jack Morrison
Handsome Jack Morrison
wrote:
>TaraG wrote:
>> "Janet B" <ja...@bestfriendsdogobedience.com> wrote in message
>> news:oo6fj21dgj0ir5fsg...@4ax.com...
>> > On Thu, 19 Oct 2006 08:20:13 -0500, diddy <di...@nospam.diddy.net>,
>> > clicked their heels and said:
>> >
>> >>
>> >>Exactly.Especially if he's seeing a behaviorist using such gentle methods
>> >>that he no longer needs a collar to control the dog. (JH?)
>> >
>> > The "behaviorist" threw food out and then gave him a hard correction
>> > with the prong collar for going for it. I have no idea what that was
>> > about.
>>
>> Sounds like a trainer, rather then a true Behaviorist.
>>
>> Odd thing though, if he's going to blame your methods for increasing his
>> dog's stress level to the point of aggression, how is this getting
>> rationalized?
>Don't know, can't see doing it myself but try this on. Since apparently
>the dog was having problems with becoming overstimulated by being
>popped with a prong collar (which Paul said he was doing)
Where exactly have you found that this was the case with Muttley?
>maybe the
>"behaviorist" wanted to see exactly what he was dealing with - would
>the dog redirect?
Who knows what he was trying to do? You certainly don't know. I
certainly don't know. And apparently Paul doesn't know, either.
Unless the behaviorist himself explained what it was, I wouldn't
believe it.
And Paul's stories change on almost a daily basis.
>Accept the correction? What? Not training at that
>point, but evaluation. And while I don't like the idea, certainly a one
>time correction is no worse than what Muttley had already been through.
What Muttley had been through was what thousands upon thousands of
dogs had been through, and just this week, and to POSITIVE results.
--
Handsome Jack Morrison
Sandy in OK
TaraG wrote:
> It wasn't a "one time correction". Paul said as much in his post clarifying
> the "evaluation v. training" issue.
>
Which of course, I hadn't read before posting one possible scenario
which might explain the collar pop.
I'm not a huge fan of prong collars (or head halters). Lots of dogs
think they are controlling the dog when they are only controlling the
dog's body, not his brain. With enough practice, a dog CAN learn to
pull through a prong collar, and then you are back to the place of
having to escalate the corrections to get the same effect. And, when
the dog is equipment dependent, if you have equipment failure (drop it,
break it, whatever) you are in deep doo doo. I'd prefer that Paul
would find someone who could help him get in control of Muttley's
brain. And sent him a link to a very well-known positive trainer who
might have been able to put him in touch with someone who works with
problems like what he's facing. I sent him information on two extremely
good books that talk about how to get to the dog's brain without
aversion. (Brenda Aloff's Aggression in Dogs and Emma Parson's Click to
Calm) But if he has found someone who can teach him to at least
communicate clearly with corrections, that's better than just popping
the dog without any clear motive or system. I don't LIKE what I'm
hearing. But dogs get trained a lot of ways, not just my way. I hope
he's actually found someone who can communicate with him (sounds like
possibly he has) and will help him communicate more effectively with
the dog, even if it is physical. Paul, I'll say this - you pop that dog
when he's looking at a dog and a person, he may associate that
sensation with what is in his line of vision. PLEASE read the Emma
Parsons book. That way you'll know the possible fall out of collar
corrections in these situations, and be able to stand up for the dog if
you think things are going that direction. Do not become dependent on a
collar for a relationship with this dog. Pain doesn't equal respect.
Sandy in OK
Handsome Jack Morrison
wrote:
[]
>It wasn't a "one time correction". Paul said as much in his post clarifying
>the "evaluation v. training" issue.
>
>Having read not only Paul's first post describing how it was done, as well
>as his subsequent clarification that it wasn't at all an evaluation
>technique but more of a training tool, this sounds like so much
>rationalizing after the fact. I found it funny that so many people jumped to
>conclusion after conclusion, bending over backwards to justify unfair prong
>corrections as "evaluation techniques" for more than 10 pages, when those
>same people were castigating using prong corrections in other (and, frankly,
>far more fair) contexts. And even after its use has been clarified, the back
>bending to justify it is still taking place, apparently.
Absolutely.
Paul's own words:
"The only time he seemed to need to snap the leash was when he was
demonstrating how to elicit consistent desired behavior, which is
basically for the dog to pay attention to the handler or owner."
Well, duh.
That's basically what Janet was doing/teaching.
On the other hand, I wouldn't bet a plug nickel that Paul's
interpretation of what happened was what actually happened, either.
Freakin' maroon.
PS: Go Cardinals!
--
Handsome Jack Morrison
Handsome Jack Morrison
wrote:
>
>TaraG wrote:
>> It wasn't a "one time correction". Paul said as much in his post clarifying
>> the "evaluation v. training" issue.
>>
>
>Which of course, I hadn't read before posting one possible scenario
>which might explain the collar pop.
>
>I'm not a huge fan of prong collars (or head halters). Lots of dogs
>think they are controlling the dog when they are only controlling the
>dog's body, not his brain. With enough practice, a dog CAN learn to
>pull through a prong collar, and then you are back to the place of
>having to escalate the corrections to get the same effect.
If what you're saying (I'm not totally clear on what you said there)
is that a dog can eventually get used to a prong, thereby having the
prong lose its effectiveness, you're absolutely correct.
That's why it behooves a dog owner to actually use the prong to TRAIN
the dog, too. I.e., not use it just to CONTROL the dog. Yes, that
would require corrections from time to time, much like it would with a
choke collar. But with some good TRAINING, it wouldn't be long before
no collar at all would be needed.
>And, when
>the dog is equipment dependent, if you have equipment failure (drop it,
>break it, whatever) you are in deep doo doo. I'd prefer that Paul
>would find someone who could help him get in control of Muttley's
>brain.
That's what good TRAINING does. And the prong is there as a backup
until the dog owner gets through to the dog's brain.
Properly training a dog to walk on a loose leash isn't just a matter
of administering collar pops. It entails changes of direction,
heeling drills, proper timing, the dancing the proper "dance," etc.
>And sent him a link to a very well-known positive trainer who
>might have been able to put him in touch with someone who works with
>problems like what he's facing.
Yeah, that's just what he needs!
Another trainer!
>Paul, I'll say this - you pop that dog
>when he's looking at a dog and a person, he may associate that
>sensation with what is in his line of vision.
Yeah, riiight.
>Pain doesn't equal respect.
Proper traditional training doesn't require pain. It requires good
technique, consistency, and persistence.
Just like any other kind of training.
What doesn't help?
Having people who don't have a clue about it whispering stupid shit in
your ear.
--
Handsome Jack Morrison
Mary H Healey
> least, would pull on the choker chain until he, well, choked and
> gasped.
While I'm not a fan of the phrase "it doesn't work because you're doing it
wrong" as an explanation, it didn't work becaus you were doing it wrong.
The FACT is that the knowledge and skill necessary to use a training
(chain) collar properly isn't instinctive or inborn in most humans. You
have to be taught.
Now, the explanation. It takes *two* to pull. Not just Muttley. Not just
you. Both of you. He can't pull unless you allow it.
When using a training collar, the technique is often described as "pop and
release". What is not often well described is that the release is more
important than the pop. If the collar is tight for more than a second,
you're pulling. Not the dog, YOU. If the dog hits the end of the leash
and doesn't give to that pressure, you've got to *show* him how to find the
release. It's far easier to demonstrate than describe.
> ...For a big, tough, physical dog, I think you
> need a means for applying a negative correction
THAT IS NOT A NEGATIVE CORRECTION. That's positive punishment.
Amy Dahl
Mary H Healey wrote:
> The FACT is that the knowledge and skill necessary to use a training
> (chain) collar properly isn't instinctive or inborn in most humans. You
> have to be taught.
>
> Now, the explanation. It takes *two* to pull. Not just Muttley. Not just
> you. Both of you. He can't pull unless you allow it.
>
I saw a perfect example of this yesterday. I was at my vet and there
was a woman there with a very appealing, large mutt. She was eager
for everyone to know she had got this dog from the shelter for her
elderly mother, selecting him based on the description of his good
behavior, gentleness around children, etc., etc., etc. But alas, no one,
least of all the elderly mother, could handle him, as he was strong and
pulled. She was there to have him evaluated before trying to find him
another home.
As she stood with him in the waiting room, she kept constant tension
on his Flexi, which she held by the wide part of the strap, a couple of
feet from his collar. If he wanted to move a couple of inches, he had
to pull. When he decided he wanted to move six inches to a foot to
check out some scent, he collected himself and made a little lunge.
As the woman was wearing high heels and not watching him, this
invariably made her lose her balance and stagger. "See?" she would
ask.
Of course there's nothing surprising about seeing a perfect example
of this. They abound.
I couldn't see an opening to offer to help her learn to handle the dog.
That may be in part because I was feverish, part because I didn't want
to put myself forward as a know-it-all in my vet's office. Now I am
wishing I had. Maybe I will call my vet. Probably it's not the right
dog for them, but I could offer a free common-sense-handling lesson
to whoever gets the dog.
Amy Dahl
TaraG
"Amy Dahl" <a...@oakhillkennel.com> wrote in message
news:453A4AB1...@oakhillkennel.com...
>
> When he decided he wanted to move six inches to a foot to
> check out some scent, he collected himself and made a little lunge.
> As the woman was wearing high heels and not watching him, this
> invariably made her lose her balance and stagger. "See?" she would
> ask.
Best way in the world to teach a dog how to lunge and pull, of course, is to
do it this way.
And, I know there are those who use them here, but this is a perfect segue
for me to say just how much I hatehatehate Flexis. Every single time I see
someone with one, I move myself and any dog I happen to be working with)
faaaarrrr out of the way, because I *know* that the dog is going to behave
badly, the owner is not going to control their dog, and the flexi is going
to be used as a way of pretending to have the dog controlled. In all the
years I've evaoided people with flexis on the stree in NYC, I've only been
wrong *once*.
> Of course there's nothing surprising about seeing a perfect example
> of this. They abound.
This is so true.
> I couldn't see an opening to offer to help her learn to handle the dog.
> That may be in part because I was feverish,
You're sick? I'm sorry to hear that. Couldn't tell from your posts. Hope you
feel better soon.
Tara
Amy Dahl
TaraG wrote:
> "Amy Dahl" <a...@oakhillkennel.com> wrote in message
> news:453A4AB1...@oakhillkennel.com...
> >
> > When he decided he wanted to move six inches to a foot to
> > check out some scent, he collected himself and made a little lunge.
> > As the woman was wearing high heels and not watching him, this
> > invariably made her lose her balance and stagger. "See?" she would
> > ask.
>
> Best way in the world to teach a dog how to lunge and pull, of course, is to
> do it this way.
I was kind of in awe at the demonstration. The only way that dog
got to move, was to lunge and pull.
>
>
> And, I know there are those who use them here, but this is a perfect segue
> for me to say just how much I hatehatehate Flexis. Every single time I see
> someone with one, I move myself and any dog I happen to be working with)
> faaaarrrr out of the way, because I *know* that the dog is going to behave
> badly, the owner is not going to control their dog, and the flexi is going
> to be used as a way of pretending to have the dog controlled. In all the
> years I've evaoided people with flexis on the stree in NYC, I've only been
> wrong *once*.
I'm with you on the Flexis, although I did have one once long ago.
They might be useful for walking a dog in open spaces where there
is a leash law, I suppose.
> You're sick? I'm sorry to hear that. Couldn't tell from your posts. Hope you
> feel better soon.
The way you can tell is that I'm posting repeatedly, and therefore
spending time indoors, on a day I would normally be outside
training. I'm over the fever but have a cruddy cough. I'm hoping
if I spend today and tomorrow indoors I'll get over it. Thanks for
the good wishes.
Amy Dahl