Halti Headcollar vs Pinch Prongs for training
Paul E. Schoen
obedience class, and it seemed to work better than just the choker chain
collar, but it was still an effort to control him and keep him focused on
me and the commands he was given. Also, he managed to make it pop open and
it had to be refastened.
This evening I bought a larger pinch prong collar, which is made of heavier
gauge metal, and also the prongs are very smoothly rounded, which I think
should pose less chance of damage than the more roughly cut ends of the
smaller collar. I plan to try it on him when I pick him up from a friend
who has been keeping him while I've been out of town.
The clerk at the store did not like the prong type collars, and thought
they really should be outlawed. She recommended a "Halti" headcollar, which
appears to be a combination collar and muzzle made of thin nylon straps. It
looks like a pull on the strap constricts a band around the nose. It is
labeled as an "improved design" by Dr. Roger Mugford.
I plan to try each of these for a brief time to see how they work on
Muttley. Then I can take them to the training class on Tuesday to have the
instructors evaluate them as well, and I can choose what may have the best
chance for success.
If anyone has any experience with these collars, please let me know. My
decision will be based on any input from here, as well as how Muttley seems
to react, and finally also the thoughts of the instructors. I would like to
do what is best for the dog, and provide him the best possible training for
future adoption.
Thanks,
Paul
Jeff Dege
>
> The clerk at the store did not like the prong type collars, and thought
> they really should be outlawed. She recommended a "Halti" headcollar, which
> appears to be a combination collar and muzzle made of thin nylon straps. It
> looks like a pull on the strap constricts a band around the nose. It is
> labeled as an "improved design" by Dr. Roger Mugford.
>
> I plan to try each of these for a brief time to see how they work on
> Muttley. Then I can take them to the training class on Tuesday to have the
> instructors evaluate them as well, and I can choose what may have the best
> chance for success.
Great idea.
Don't listen to me. Don't listen to the clerk.
Listen to your dog.
Most of them really hate head collars. Some will learn to tolerate them,
many will not.
--
.Sig?
Todd H.
> I was recommended to try a small pinch prong collar at Muttley's
> first obedience class, and it seemed to work better than just the
> choker chain collar,
Yup. And they don't construct their airway in the unlikely event
they try to strain at the chain.
> but it was still an effort to control him and keep him focused on me
> and the commands he was given.
Have they taught you sneak aways on a long line? Has someone with
experience evaluated the fit of that collar to make sure it's sized
correctly? It's exceedingly common to have these mis-sized.
> Also, he managed to make it pop open and it had to be refastened.
Getting one that isn't quick release, where you take a link out of the
middle of the collar will fix that.
> This evening I bought a larger pinch prong collar, which is made of
> heavier gauge metal, and also the prongs are very smoothly rounded,
> which I think should pose less chance of damage than the more
> roughly cut ends of the smaller collar. I plan to try it on him when
> I pick him up from a friend who has been keeping him while I've been
> out of town.
>
> The clerk at the store did not like the prong type collars, and thought
> they really should be outlawed.
Let me guess, teenage or early 20 something female? Got the same
look from one at Petsmart here. Probably has never trained a dog.
Has your dog ever whelped from a correction on the pinch collar? I
know my 10lb poodle hasn't, yet learned his obedience very well. For
bigger breeds with a higher threshhold of getting their attention, the
pinch seems to be more helpful still. For instnace, how many Labs do
you see able to ignore a standard training collar in the hands of a
new handler?
> She recommended a "Halti" headcollar, which appears to be a
> combination collar and muzzle made of thin nylon straps. It looks
> like a pull on the strap constricts a band around the nose. It is
> labeled as an "improved design" by Dr. Roger Mugford.
I didn't see any of these at my dog club's obedience class. That's
not to say they don't work, but it's not a terribly proven design yet
I'd say.
> I plan to try each of these for a brief time to see how they work on
> Muttley. Then I can take them to the training class on Tuesday to have the
> instructors evaluate them as well, and I can choose what may have the best
> chance for success.
>
> If anyone has any experience with these collars, please let me know. My
> decision will be based on any input from here, as well as how Muttley seems
> to react, and finally also the thoughts of the instructors. I would like to
> do what is best for the dog, and provide him the best possible training for
> future adoption.
The pinch collars work wonderfully, easier to learn to use correctly
and are what our club leans towards. Just make sure you've got it
sized correctly.
Good luck with the training!
Best Regards,
--
Todd H.
http://www.toddh.net/
Paul E. Schoen
"Jeff Dege" <jd...@jdege.visi.com> wrote in message
news:pan.2006.09.16....@jdege.visi.com...
trying to tell me. I am more used to cats, but have learned in my six
months with Muttley that dogs can be very expressive as well. He seems to
be able to tell me when he needs attention, and that has been very helpful
in building a feeling of mutual trust. Hopefully one of the collars,
properly fitted and used, will help him (and me) concentrate on training,
and then hopefully will not be needed again once he learns to listen to me
rather than following his nose.
Paul
Paul E. Schoen
"Todd H." <t...@toddh.net> wrote in message news:84lkok3...@ripco.com...
> "Paul E. Schoen" <pst...@smart.net> writes:
>
>> I was recommended to try a small pinch prong collar at Muttley's
>> first obedience class, and it seemed to work better than just the
>> choker chain collar,
>
> Yup. And they don't construct their airway in the unlikely event
> they try to strain at the chain.
>
until he was gasping. I would then try to kneel next to him, settle him
down, loosen the chain, look him in the eye, and try to get him to focus on
me. Two seconds later he would strain eagerly again trying to follow his
nose somewhere.
>> but it was still an effort to control him and keep him focused on me
>> and the commands he was given.
>
> Have they taught you sneak aways on a long line? Has someone with
> experience evaluated the fit of that collar to make sure it's sized
> correctly? It's exceedingly common to have these mis-sized.
>
The trainer added extra links to size it properly. She connected the leash
also to the choke chain as a backup, fortunately.
>> Also, he managed to make it pop open and it had to be refastened.
>
> Getting one that isn't quick release, where you take a link out of the
> middle of the collar will fix that.
>
Each of the links could be fairly easily squeezed and removed. It may have
become tangled with the choke chain to make it pop open. It opened between
a pair of links, not at the clip.
>> This evening I bought a larger pinch prong collar, which is made of
>> heavier gauge metal, and also the prongs are very smoothly rounded,
>> which I think should pose less chance of damage than the more
>> roughly cut ends of the smaller collar. I plan to try it on him when
>> I pick him up from a friend who has been keeping him while I've been
>> out of town.
>>
>> The clerk at the store did not like the prong type collars, and thought
>> they really should be outlawed.
>
> Let me guess, teenage or early 20 something female? Got the same
> look from one at Petsmart here. Probably has never trained a dog.
>
This was a middle aged woman at a Tractor Supply Company store, which
specializes in rural animal needs. She may have been the same one who
warned me to watch my dog when he chewed on rawhide pieces. Muttley is very
careful (and efficient) when he eats them.
> Has your dog ever whelped from a correction on the pinch collar? I
> know my 10lb poodle hasn't, yet learned his obedience very well. For
> bigger breeds with a higher threshhold of getting their attention, the
> pinch seems to be more helpful still. For instnace, how many Labs do
> you see able to ignore a standard training collar in the hands of a
> new handler?
>
Muttley is built with a very large and powerful neck, and he never made a
sound when the pinch collar was snapped up. He simply slowed down a bit and
then continued to pull. I think I could probably just about lift his 70+ lb
off the ground with the smaller pinch coller (and even the choker) without
him even flinching. I will see how the larger one works on him in the less
distracting environment here at home, and then the final test will probably
be at his next class on Tuesday, with evaluation by the trainers.
>> She recommended a "Halti" headcollar, which appears to be a
>> combination collar and muzzle made of thin nylon straps. It looks
>> like a pull on the strap constricts a band around the nose. It is
>> labeled as an "improved design" by Dr. Roger Mugford.
>
> I didn't see any of these at my dog club's obedience class. That's
> not to say they don't work, but it's not a terribly proven design yet
> I'd say.
>
The woman at the store said, essentially, that if you control the dog's
head, you control the dog. Maybe exerting some pull on his nose will bring
his attention more to me. When I took Muttley to a horse farm, the woman
who ran it seemed to have some success with Muttley in a short time, by
forcing him to look her in the eye, and giving very quick, strong
corrections at the least sign of his inattention. And that was only with
the choker chain.
>> I plan to try each of these for a brief time to see how they work on
>> Muttley. Then I can take them to the training class on Tuesday to have
>> the
>> instructors evaluate them as well, and I can choose what may have the
>> best
>> chance for success.
>>
>> If anyone has any experience with these collars, please let me know. My
>> decision will be based on any input from here, as well as how Muttley
>> seems
>> to react, and finally also the thoughts of the instructors. I would like
>> to
>> do what is best for the dog, and provide him the best possible training
>> for
>> future adoption.
>
> The pinch collars work wonderfully, easier to learn to use correctly
> and are what our club leans towards. Just make sure you've got it
> sized correctly.
>
> Good luck with the training!
>
> Best Regards,
> --
Thanks. I'll report on my future successes or difficulties. It is probably
a combination of my inexperience with dog training and also a very smart,
willful, powerful dog who was used to being able to run free for quite a
while.
Paul
Todd H.
> "Todd H." <t...@toddh.net> wrote in message news:84lkok3...@ripco.com...
> > "Paul E. Schoen" <pst...@smart.net> writes:
> >
> >> I was recommended to try a small pinch prong collar at Muttley's
> >> first obedience class, and it seemed to work better than just the
> >> choker chain collar,
> >
> > Yup. And they don't construct their airway in the unlikely event
> > they try to strain at the chain.
> >
> With Muttley, this was a very predictable event. He would strain mightily
> until he was gasping. I would then try to kneel next to him, settle him
> down, loosen the chain, look him in the eye, and try to get him to focus on
> me. Two seconds later he would strain eagerly again trying to follow his
> nose somewhere.
I watched a trainer take care of that with a couple similarly strong
willed dogs with a few "OUT!" corrections delivered well, and with a
quick and simple praise when they stopped the offending behavior.
It's possible that by kneeling down next to him and attempting to
settle him that you may be unwittingly encouraging the behavior that
led you to comfort it.
> The trainer added extra links to size it properly. She connected the leash
> also to the choke chain as a backup, fortunately.
Both collars simultaneously? This seems extremely unorthodox, and in
fact may have led to the release of the clasp.
> Each of the links could be fairly easily squeezed and removed. It may have
> become tangled with the choke chain to make it pop open. It opened between
> a pair of links, not at the clip.
Oh, yeah... I'm not an expert on these topics, but having 2 collars on
at once with any training collar just seems like a recipe for
disaster. Do you get the feeling your instructor is competent?
> Muttley is built with a very large and powerful neck, and he never made a
> sound when the pinch collar was snapped up. He simply slowed down a bit and
> then continued to pull. I think I could probably just about lift his 70+ lb
> off the ground with the smaller pinch coller (and even the choker) without
> him even flinching. I will see how the larger one works on him in the less
> distracting environment here at home, and then the final test will probably
> be at his next class on Tuesday, with evaluation by the trainers.
Sounds reasonable. He sounds like a beast. :-)
> Thanks. I'll report on my future successes or difficulties. It is probably
> a combination of my inexperience with dog training and also a very smart,
> willful, powerful dog who was used to being able to run free for quite a
> while.
Yeah you've probably got your work cut out for you, but from what I've
seen in the 10wk obedience class recently finished, you should be
seeing some impressive results if you put in the daily work with him
and learn the handling techniques, timing of corrections, when not to
give eye contact, and all that jazz. It sounds like your dog needs
to learn that he the lowest number on the totem pole at your house,
and that when you're training, he needs to be focused on his new pack
leader, and that pulling like that is simply not acceptable behavior.
With enough correction, and well-timed genuine praise immediatley
after he breaks off the bad behavior, he will eventually "get" that
the place to be is at your heel and that bad things happen when he
starts to pull.
Good luck!
TaraG
"Todd H." <i...@toddh.net> wrote in message news:841wqcm...@ripco.com...
> "Paul E. Schoen" <pst...@smart.net> writes:
>> The trainer added extra links to size it properly. She connected the
>> leash
>> also to the choke chain as a backup, fortunately.
>
> Both collars simultaneously? This seems extremely unorthodox, and in
> fact may have led to the release of the clasp.
Untrue. Actually, though I rarely use prong collars these days, I would
NEVER use one without also using a backup slip collar with it (a nylon slip,
to be specific)
A prong collar n its own can fail and open....and enough do to make the use
of a backup collar not only prudent, but wise.
>> Each of the links could be fairly easily squeezed and removed. It may
>> have
>> become tangled with the choke chain to make it pop open. It opened
>> between
>> a pair of links, not at the clip.
>
> Oh, yeah... I'm not an expert on these topics, but having 2 collars on
> at once with any training collar just seems like a recipe for
> disaster. Do you get the feeling your instructor is competent?
Its definitely NOT a "recipe for disaster". In my opinion, using a prong
collar solo without any sort of safety mechanism for if/when the collar
opens on its own is a "recipe" of its own.
To the OP (Paul), while I don't go to the prong collar as a first option, I
also find that enough dogs have issues with head collars that Muttley might
have to tell you which one he a) responds to most quickly and b) prefers
(and, yes, this is second in priority). The larger prongs might not be the
best idea....and I have yet to see the rounded nubs help *anything* besides
the owner's conscience. The dog pulls harder, and then ultimately learns to
pull *through* the prong with those plugs at the end. Again, you'll find out
when its actually *on* Muttley, and when your trainer has a chance to see
you guys in action in person.
I did have to interject when I saw the above statements from Todd, though.
Tara
Handsome Jack Morrison
wrote:
>On Fri, 15 Sep 2006 23:01:39 -0400, Paul E. Schoen wrote:
>> The clerk at the store did not like the prong type collars, and thought
>> they really should be outlawed. She recommended a "Halti" headcollar, which
>> appears to be a combination collar and muzzle made of thin nylon straps. It
>> looks like a pull on the strap constricts a band around the nose. It is
>> labeled as an "improved design" by Dr. Roger Mugford.
>>
>> I plan to try each of these for a brief time to see how they work on
>> Muttley. Then I can take them to the training class on Tuesday to have the
>> instructors evaluate them as well, and I can choose what may have the best
>> chance for success.
>
>Great idea.
Not in my opinion.
He's collar shopping without any input from his trainer? How smart is
that?
He's also obviously expecting the collar itself to be some kind of
silver bullet. I can almost hear his gears grinding from here: "Gee,
if I can just find the right kind of collar, Muttley will transform
himself into Lassie overnight! I'll be the toast of the town!"
It's not the freakin' collar! It's never the freakin' collar!
It's the TRAINING. It's always the TRAINING.
>Don't listen to me. Don't listen to the clerk.
>
>Listen to your dog.
Actually, I don't agree with that sentiment, either.
He should be listening to his *trainer.* Period.
What, pray tell, is he paying a trainer for, if it's not to show him
how to train his dog? What kind of equipment to use? How to use it?
He's already anthropomorphizing the prong collar, by thinking that the
kind with smooth tips will somehow be more "kind" to his dog, etc. And
he's also listening to people who sell dog food for a living, instead
of listening to people who actually train dogs for a living.
How smart is that?
I think Janet (as his trainer, I presume) should get control of
Muttley's *owner* first, before worrying about ol' Muttley.
Yep, that's my opinion, and I'm sticking to it.
--
Handsome Jack Morrison
A very, very brave woman dies - Oriana Fallaci. R.I.P.
(read her books, while you still can)
http://michellemalkin.com/archives/005934.htm
http://pajamasmedia.com/2006/09/in_memoriam.php
The Iraqi Truth Project:
http://www.iraqitruthproject.com/
Payback's gonna be a real bitch.
http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2006/09/10/a_new_low_in_bush_hatred/
Deranged Democrat Watch
http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?entry=22450_Deranged_Democrat_Watch#comments
"Reality Based" Community Watch:
http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?entry=22395_Reality-Based_Community_Watch#comments
The "Azzam" Threat: A prelude to Future Jihad in America:
http://counterterrorismblog.org/2006/09/the_azzam_threat_a_prelude_to.php
The Waiting Game:
http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=MTkxNzhlZDBmZTI0ZTc1ZDlmNjRkYTZiNzM1NTI4NjY=
Border War. Another must-see movie.
http://hotair.com/archives/2006/08/31/border-war/
Playing with fire, the commie pinko liberal way:
http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/article-23365246-details/President+Bush+assassinated+in+new+TV+docudrama/article.do
flick
news:450b9753$0$21536$ecde...@news.coretel.net...
<snipped>
> With Muttley, this was a very predictable event. He would strain mightily
> until he was gasping. I would then try to kneel next to him, settle him
> down, loosen the chain, look him in the eye, and try to get him to focus
> on me. Two seconds later he would strain eagerly again trying to follow
> his nose somewhere.
This isn't how to use a prong collar. See your trainer.
> The woman at the store said, essentially, that if you control the dog's
> head, you control the dog. Maybe exerting some pull on his nose will bring
> his attention more to me. When I took Muttley to a horse farm, the woman
> who ran it seemed to have some success with Muttley in a short time, by
> forcing him to look her in the eye, and giving very quick, strong
> corrections at the least sign of his inattention. And that was only with
> the choker chain.
The last time I took a dog through a formal beginner's obedience class was
decades ago. We ALL had prong collars on our dogs.
You control the dog through its training. I think a Halti is useful as an
emergency control measure, or if you've got a particularly powerful dog,
until the dog is trained. To me, a Halti is not a training tool.
> Thanks. I'll report on my future successes or difficulties. It is probably
> a combination of my inexperience with dog training and also a very smart,
> willful, powerful dog who was used to being able to run free for quite a
> while.
He doesn't know what you want, yet - he isn't trained, yet. You'll learn
how to size and use that prong collar in class, and all will become clear,
Grasshopper ;-).
flick 100785
flick
news:K2NOg.33$x11.20@trndny02...
>
> Untrue. Actually, though I rarely use prong collars these days, I would
> NEVER use one without also using a backup slip collar with it (a nylon
> slip, to be specific)
> A prong collar n its own can fail and open....and enough do to make the
> use of a backup collar not only prudent, but wise.
I've never had a prong collar fail like this. The ones I have, if you want
to remove a link you've got to squeeze the prongs together with pliers and
pull hard to get it separate.
flick 100785
George Anderson
a prong collar, these things are barbaric and should be banned, if your
trainer is recommending a prong collar I would very strongly suggest you
find another class to attend where these things are not used or allowed.
The headcollar is a very useful piece of equipment and if properly used will
stop your dog pulling, your first consideration is get the right size they
come is sizes 0 to 5. When you first put the head collar on the dog will
probably not like it so just put on for a few minutes and give him some
tasty treats and do this each time you put in on him so that he sees the
head collar with nice things. When you start to walk him with it on, have
him on your left side and hold the lead in your right hand, when he starts
to pull, gently pull his head round towards you, this will bring his whole
body round which stops him pulling, practice with this and he will soon stop
pulling.
George Anderson
dogg...@virgin.net
When a dog wags it's tail and barks at the same time,
it is the bark you should heed.
"Paul E. Schoen" <pst...@smart.net> wrote in message
news:450b6916$0$21518$ecde...@news.coretel.net...
TaraG
"flick" <fl...@starband.net> wrote in message
news:42d54$450c0f83$94402b1b$12...@STARBAND.NET...
With pliers? Every time you put it on and take it off? I doubt that. They
can be tough, but no company I'm aware of makes them impossible for human
hands to use.
It happens maybe one in every hundred or so dogs....but in NYC, that's often
enough to warrant the backup system, because that one dog can end up running
straight into traffic.
Tara
TaraG
"George Anderson" <dogg...@virgin.net> wrote in message
news:2KUOg.29800$G72....@newsfe3-gui.ntli.net...
> As a dog trainer and behaviourist I was horrified to read that you are
> using
> a prong collar, these things are barbaric and should be banned,
As a trainer who uses primarly positive methods, I think this type of
thinking is narrowminded, and unfortunately not very knowledgeable about
equipment.
And I say this as someone who hasn't used a prng collar in over 4 years.
By the way, most Behaviorists don't also call themselves Dog Trainers. I was
looking into becoming a Behaviorist, but I couldn't justify the extra years
of schooling, so I stuck with Dog Trainer. Where did you go for your
Behavioral Degree?
> if your
> trainer is recommending a prong collar I would very strongly suggest you
> find another class to attend where these things are not used or allowed.
This is bizarre. You have no idea what problems this guy has been having
with his dog. You have no idea how much actual work he is willing to (or in
a position to) put into this dog. You have no idea what factors went into
that decision. And yet you feel comfortable making a categorical statement
like that?
Wow.
> The headcollar is a very useful piece of equipment and if properly used
> will
> stop your dog pulling, your first consideration is get the right size
> they
> come is sizes 0 to 5.
They also scare the crap out of plenty of dogs. Which is why I stopped using
them regularly shortly after I stopped using the prong. All thing being
equal, I actually found that the DOGS usually took to the prong a lot more
easily than they took to the head collar.
When judging the cruelty/kindness factor of a method or piece of equipment,
I like to make sure I'm using the actual DOG as the barometer....not what
*I* would prefer. They are often different answers. I saw far too many dogs
panic when the owners would (understandably) rush the adjustment process.
And, I'm sorry, but any piece of equipment that takes up to two weeks to get
a dog to accept is NOT intrinsically kinder.
> When you first put the head collar on the dog will
> probably not like it so just put on for a few minutes and give him some
> tasty treats and do this each time you put in on him so that he sees the
> head collar with nice things.
You haven't worked with that many dogs with spacial issues if you think
that's how it always works. There are plenty of dogs that need slow
desensitization for a week or more before they're comfortable enough to have
pressure applied to their snouts.
> When you start to walk him with it on, have
> him on your left side and hold the lead in your right hand, when he starts
> to pull, gently pull his head round towards you, this will bring his whole
> body round which stops him pulling, practice with this and he will soon
> stop
> pulling.
Or he could use a sensation/easy walk type harness so as not to freak out
his dog by putting scary things on his nose. Or he could do what he's doing
since there's a trainer (who is apparently pretty good and has been posting
here for *years*, with real live students who have also posted here) who has
actually laid hands on this dog and who has observed the interactions and
behaviors first hand.
While there are plenty of tools I would probably never see the need to use
on a dog, the call to ban certain those things just to mollify those who
don't understand them is beyond me.
Tara
flick
>
>
> With pliers? Every time you put it on and take it off? I doubt that. They
> can be tough, but no company I'm aware of makes them impossible for human
> hands to use.
I forget that not everybody has my hand strength problems. My bad.
> It happens maybe one in every hundred or so dogs....but in NYC, that's
> often enough to warrant the backup system, because that one dog can end up
> running straight into traffic.
What I use for a backup with the Saint is this harness thing that tends to
lift up his front end if he pulls hard, or at least puts pressure there.
One leash to that, one leash to the prong collar, they're in different
places and don't get tangled. I don't use the backup very often any more,
though, myself. The kids do, as extra insurance. He's well trained now,
but I prefer not to bet his life on that in certain circumstances.
flick 100785
Jeff Dege
> On Fri, 15 Sep 2006 22:11:24 -0500, Jeff Dege <jd...@jdege.visi.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>>Don't listen to me. Don't listen to the clerk.
>>
>>Listen to your dog.
>
> Actually, I don't agree with that sentiment, either.
>
> He should be listening to his *trainer.* Period.
>
> What, pray tell, is he paying a trainer for, if it's not to show him
> how to train his dog? What kind of equipment to use? How to use it?
Far too many trainers have fixed ideas about what effect which tools of on
dogs - when the simple truth is different dogs respond differently.
If you have a trainer who is watching the dog, to see how he responds to
various training tools, great. If not, you're going to have to watch the
dog yourself.
Truth is trainers (other than board-and-train trainers) don't train dogs.
They teach people how to train their own dogs.
The trainer is a resource. An important and valuable resource, or your
wasting your money, but only one resource of many.
--
Liberty, at bottom, is a simple thing, whatever its outward forms.
It is common faith in man, common good will, common tolerance and charity,
common decency, no less and no more. Translated into political terms, it
is the doctrine that the normal citizen of a civilized state is actually
normal - that the decency which belongs naturally to homo sapiens, as an
animal above the brutes, is really in him. It holds that this normal
citizen may be trusted, one day with another, to do the decent thing.
It relies upon his natural impulses, and assumes them to be sound.
Finally, it is the doctrine that if these assumptions are false, then
nothing can be done about it - and if human beings are actually so bad,
then none is good enough to police the rest.
- H. L. Mencken
Jeff Dege
> As a dog trainer and behaviourist I was horrified to read that you are using
> a prong collar,
As a radical skinnerian cultist, rather.
> these things are barbaric and should be banned, if your
> trainer is recommending a prong collar I would very strongly suggest you
> find another class to attend where these things are not used or allowed.
Why? Because dogs find the aversive? That's the whole point.
> The headcollar is a very useful piece of equipment and if properly used will
> stop your dog pulling,
Except, of course, that nine of ten dogs find simply wearing a headcollar
to be aversive - which they do no with a prong.
Which is better? To have the dog wear a prong that does not cause him
discomfort or pain, except at the specific moment that the handler decides
to impose a correction, or to have the dog wear a headcollar that causes
him constant distress?
The latter, of course, if you're a purely positive extremists. Because
the official canon of the purely positive cultists is that prongs are
always bad and headcollars are always good, regardless of what the dogs
thinks about it.
--
For every problem there is one solution which is simple, neat, and wrong.
-- H. L. Mencken
Handsome Jack Morrison
wrote:
>On Sat, 16 Sep 2006 09:31:45 -0400, Handsome Jack Morrison wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 15 Sep 2006 22:11:24 -0500, Jeff Dege <jd...@jdege.visi.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Don't listen to me. Don't listen to the clerk.
>>>
>>>Listen to your dog.
>>
>> Actually, I don't agree with that sentiment, either.
>>
>> He should be listening to his *trainer.* Period.
>>
>> What, pray tell, is he paying a trainer for, if it's not to show him
>> how to train his dog? What kind of equipment to use? How to use it?
>
>Far too many trainers have fixed ideas about what effect which tools of on
>dogs - when the simple truth is different dogs respond differently.
But that's for his *trainer* to decide, not Shoen.
Janet is in the best position to SHOW Schoen how to properly fit any
collar, to use it properly, and to SHOW him how to do all of the
above.
And hopefully without any interference from a lady who sells dog food
for a living.
Thus far, Schoen sounds exactly like Leah Redux (presuming that you
know who Leah is.)
>If you have a trainer who is watching the dog, to see how he responds to
>various training tools, great. If not, you're going to have to watch the
>dog yourself.
Schoen knows so little about dogs, dog behavior, and dog training,
that he's not in a position right now to determine much of anything by
simply watching his dog.
Schoen should rely on Janet's experience, knowledge, ability (all of
which are considerable), or he should get himself another trainer.
Too many cooks spoil the broth, and too many trainers ruin the dog.
Especially when one of those "trainers" sells dog food for a living.
>Truth is trainers (other than board-and-train trainers) don't train dogs.
>They teach people how to train their own dogs.
And if you're going to pay them your hard-earned mony to do that, it
behooves you to listen to them, not your dog.
And certainly not to a lady who sells dog food for a living.
>The trainer is a resource. An important and valuable resource, or your
>wasting your money, but only one resource of many.
It's the *primary* resource, and s/he deserves the clients undivided
attention.
If Schoen then becomes unhappy with the progress or the results, find
another trainer.
Handsome Jack Morrison
<dogg...@virgin.net> wrote:
>As a dog trainer and behaviourist I was horrified to read that you are using
>a prong collar,
[...]
Crap.
Not another doofus. Just what we need - more doofuses.
<SIGH>
--
Handsome Jack Morrison
Finally! The WHO gets one right. DDT okay again for developing countries, Africa.
http://instapundit.com/archives/032591.php
Lancing a boil or two is messy work:
http://theanchoressonline.com/2006/09/15/benedicts-blunder-was-partly-media-enhanced/
Two words for Muslims angry at Pope Benedict:
http://bamapachyderm.com/archives/2006/09/15/message-to-muslims-angry-at-pope-benedict/
Paul E. Schoen
>
> "George Anderson" <dogg...@virgin.net> wrote in message
> news:2KUOg.29800$G72....@newsfe3-gui.ntli.net...
>> As a dog trainer and behaviourist I was horrified to read that you are
>> using
>> a prong collar, these things are barbaric and should be banned,
>
> As a trainer who uses primarly positive methods, I think this type of
> thinking is narrowminded, and unfortunately not very knowledgeable about
> equipment.
>
> And I say this as someone who hasn't used a prng collar in over 4 years.
>
[snip]
>
>> if your
>> trainer is recommending a prong collar I would very strongly suggest
>> you
>> find another class to attend where these things are not used or allowed.
>
> This is bizarre. You have no idea what problems this guy has been having
> with his dog. You have no idea how much actual work he is willing to (or
> in a position to) put into this dog. You have no idea what factors went
> into that decision. And yet you feel comfortable making a categorical
> statement like that?
>
I appreciate all of your comments on alternate equipment and methods for my
reluctant initiation into the world of dog training. I can see that there
are some very strong opposing viewpoints, and all probably have some
validity. I would like to get good results fairly quickly without investing
too much time and effort, partly because I am overwhelmed with other issues
at this time, and also because I hope to be able to give Muttley to a new
owner who can invest the needed time and (tough) love required. It becomes
increasingly hard for me to consider giving him to someone else, as I
continue to bond with him and see his progress and experience his affection
for me.
>> The headcollar is a very useful piece of equipment and if properly used
>> will
>> stop your dog pulling, your first consideration is get the right size
>> they come is sizes 0 to 5.
>
> They also scare the crap out of plenty of dogs. Which is why I stopped
> using them regularly shortly after I stopped using the prong. All thing
> being equal, I actually found that the DOGS usually took to the prong a
> lot more easily than they took to the head collar.
>
[snip]
> You haven't worked with that many dogs with spacial issues if you think
> that's how it always works. There are plenty of dogs that need slow
> desensitization for a week or more before they're comfortable enough to
> have pressure applied to their snouts.
>
[snip]
> Or he could use a sensation/easy walk type harness so as not to freak out
> his dog by putting scary things on his nose. Or he could do what he's
> doing since there's a trainer (who is apparently pretty good and has been
> posting here for *years*, with real live students who have also posted
> here) who has actually laid hands on this dog and who has observed the
> interactions and behaviors first hand.
>
Yes, you probably know that I am going to classes generously offered by
Janet for no charge, provided that I intend to offer him for adoption. At
the class last week, she was not there, and the instructor suggested and
supplied the small prong collar, which required adding extra prongs to fit
around Muttley's large neck. I could see some improvement, but then I also
had the problem where the collar came loose. The other instructor said that
Janet believes the smaller prongs work better, but she personally thinks
the larger prongs are better for some larger dogs like her St Bernard.
Janet will be there this Tuesday and hopefully we can decide what may work
best. I'll try the new collars tonight when I get Muttley back, and get a
feel for his reactions. Unfortunately I was away for a few days and did not
have time to fully evaluate the smaller prong collar. It may also not be
good to try the collars too soon after he returns to me. He may need a day
to readjust.
> While there are plenty of tools I would probably never see the need to
> use on a dog, the call to ban certain those things just to mollify those
> who don't understand them is beyond me.
>
> Tara
Hopefully you all can see that I am trying to do what is in Muttley's best
interests, as well as trying to maintain my own sanity. He is a smart,
lovable dog, and after six months he has become a very special friend.
However, he really deserves a home where he can run in a fenced area, with
a more energetic owner who can devote more time and love for him. I do not
regret the moment I decided to save him from being put down by the SPCA
because they had no room for him, but it has caused me many difficulties
that I was not fully prepared to handle. He has made good progress from
being a wild Alpha pack leader to a trustworthy and protective housemate
and good buddy, but I don't want to continue having to keep him and Photon
separate. His needs require most of my time, and Photon must hide or stay
outside.
For my adoption poster with pictures of Muttley, please see:
www.smart.net/~pstech/Muttley3.doc.
Thanks,
Paul
Human_And_Animal_Behaviour_Foren...@hotmail.com
WELCOME to The Sincerely Incredibly Freakin Insanely Simply
Amazing Grand Puppy, Child, Pussy, Birdy And Horsey Wizard's
100% CONSISTENTLY NEARLY INSTANTLY SUCCESSFUL
FREE WWW Wits' End Dog, Child, Kat And Horse Training
Method Manual Forums <{); ~ ) >
I'm Jerry Howe, The Sincerely Incredibly Freakin Insanely Simply
Amazing Grand Puppy, Child, Pussy, Birdy And Horsey Wizard <{) ; ~ ) >
Here's your own FREE COPY of The Sincerely Incredibly Freakin
Insanely Simply Amazing Grand Puppy, Child, Pussy, Birdy And
Horsey Wizard's
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Puppy, Child, Pussy, Birdy And Horsey Wizard's
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Wits' End Dog, Child, Kat And Horsey Training Method Manual <{) ; ~ ) >
<{#}: ~ } >8< { ~ :{@}>
<{#}: ~ } > < { ~ :{@}>
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"George Anderson" <dogg...@virgin.net> wrote in message
news:2KUOg.29800$G72....@newsfe3-gui.ntli.net...
> "Paul E. Schoen" <pst...@smart.net> wrote in message
> news:450b6916$0$21518$ecde...@news.coretel.net...
>> I was recommended to try a small pinch prong collar at Muttley's first
>> obedience class, and it seemed to work better than just the choker chain
>> collar, but it was still an effort to control him and keep him focused on
>> me and the commands he was given.
> As a dog trainer and behaviourist I was horrified to read that
> you are using a prong collar, these things are barbaric and
> should be banned,
INDEEDY. HOWEver, HOWER DOG LOVERS PREFER
jerkin chokin shockin bribin intimidating crating mutilatin
and murderin innocent defenseless dumb critters to compensate
for their fragile defective egos, weak fearful minds and colossal
inferiority complexes <{) : ~ ( >
paulie has been jerkin an chokin his dog to make IT friends
with his HOWEskat for six months or so, George. HE WANTS
TO HURT HIS DOG, George.
We're dealin with MENTAL ILLNESS, not inadequate /
insufficient / inapupriate / medieval TRAININ TOOLS
and incompetent "methods", George.
> if your trainer is recommending a prong collar
Here's paul's "TRAINER", janet boss:
From: "Deltones" <vibrov...@hotmail.com>
Date: 2 Dec 2005 10:55:41 -0800
Subject: Re: In defense of Jerry Howe's methods
Mary Healey wrote:
> I'm still asking for 5 original posts from people here at least 5
> years to support your initial contention (NOT HURTING DOGS
> TO TRAIN THEM). You're 0 for 2, so far.
That's 2 in 2 as far as I'm concerned but hey, if you insist. I'm
really curious to see what will be the justification this time. So far
we have:
Limited choking? Hey, it's limited, As
Neo would say: Woah, there is no choke.
Dogs pumped full of prozac? Hey, they're trippin
man. Remember Woodstock. Euh.... Woodwhat?
E-Collar? I'm sure some of you will come up with: But my
dog look so pretty with an electrified perm. Swoooon.
So on with the fun. Taken from the "Collars" thread,
started by Perry Templeton June 20 2005
Denis
------------
On 26 Jun 2005 10:52:42 -0700, lucyaa...@claque.net, wrote:
> What does the "choke" in the "choke chain" stand for, then?
> Lucy
one reason I call them slip collars. Their is a correction involved,
and while it causes momentary discomfort, does not choke the dog.
OTOH, it is CAPABLE fo being used to do that, should a situation
warrant it.
--
Janet B
----------
And here's another one from the same author,
taken from the same thread.
---------
167. Janet B
Jun 21, 12:03 pm show options
On Mon, 20 Jun 2005 21:40:11 +0100, "Alison"
<Ali...@XYZallofus2.fsnet.co.uk>, wrote:
> I'm just wondering why you had to use choke chains to train"your
> dogs especially as they are so small.
Oh geez - let's see - how many JRTs act like alligators at the end of
a leash? I personally prefer prong collars.
----------
Let's go for the hat trick with the same author, taken from the same
thread:
----------
141. Janet B
Jun 27, 10:01 pm
I don't use choke chains. Not quite true - I use a jeweler's hex link
on Franklin at times - it's puuuuuurty. I know the "sound" thing
and all, and when training a dog in a non-group setting, that sound
may be a factor, but I think it fails in the context of a group class.
So, I prefer the better fitting nylon slip collars, and very often,
pinch collars (small link unless it's a freaky dog, then they need
the milder medium link).
But I use e-collars too. With one of my dogs and with some clients.
For circumstances where a physical collar and leash is not the right
answer. I'm sure Lucy has no clue what THAT means!
--
Janet B
----------
HOWEDY janet,
Looks like you and your pals have gone totally INSANE again:
Janet B wrote:
> On Fri, 02 Dec 2005 14:44:14 -0500, Janet B
> <j...@bestfriendsdogobedience.com>, clicked their heels and said:
> > Since you quoted me repeatedly, where does it say I beat dogs, choke
> > dogs, scream at dogs, etc? Thanks for your clarification.
.
> responding to my own post, I had to go back and look at the original
> post, to remind myself what "we" are all accused of doing:
>
> "screaming, choking, shocking, pinching, beating the living crap
> out of your dogs"
>
> Scream? no
>
> Choke? no
>
> Shock? e-collars are a lot more sophisticated than that
>
> Pinch? if you want to classify a momentary discomfort by a prong
> collar, go ahead, but unless you have first hand experience with
> one, your opinion means nothing
>
> Beat the living crap out of? hardly - no hitting exists
"Loop the lead (it's basically a GIANT nylon or leather
choke collar) over his snarly little head, and give him a
stern correction" --Janet Boss
"Reliable Punishment Cycles, Different Thresholds To Pain
And Punishment, High Tolerance For Correction, Escalation
Of Correction To A Level Where The Dog Yelps When You Punish
Him, Thus Making The Experience One Which The Dog Will Want
To Avoid In The Future," grant teeboon, RAAF.
"Well, Jack Did Hit My Dog. Actually I'd Call It
A Sharp Tap Of The Crook To The Nose. I Know Jack
Wouldn't Have Done It If He Thought Solo Couldn't
Take It. I Still Crate Him Because Otherwise I Fear
He Might Eat My Cat," melanie.
captain arthur haggerty SEZ: "A CHIN CHUCK" Makes A
ResoundingSound Distraction: "When You Chuck The Dog
The Sound Will Travel Up The Mandible To The Ears And
Give A Popping Sound To The Dog."
"Many People Have Problems Getting The Pinch
Right, Either They Do Not Pinch Enough, Or They
Have A Very Stoic Dog. Some Dogs Will Collapse
Into A Heap. About The Ear Pinch: You Must Keep
The Pressure Up," sindy "don't let the dog SCREAM"
mooreon, author of HOWER FAQ's pages on k9 web.
On 6 Feb 2006 17:41:08 GMT, Mary Healey <mhhea...@iastate.edu>,
clicked their heels and said:
> Does that include tone of voice? Some tools are easier
> to ban than others.
yes - screaming banshees are told to shut up! And I
always have to remind spouses that they may NOT do the
"honey - you're supposed to be doing it like THIS"......
--
Janet B
www.bestfriendsdogobedience.com
http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/bestfriendsobedience/album
lying frosty dahl, oakhill kennels wrote:
Get A 30"- 40" Stick.You can have a helper wield
the stick, or do it yourself. Tougher, less tractable
dogs may require you to progress to striking them
more sharply
Try pinching the ear between the metal casing and
the collar, even the buckle on the collar. Persist!
Eventually, the dog will give in
but will squeal, thrash around, and direct their
efforts to escaping the ear pinch
You can press the dog's ear with a shotshell
instead of your thumb even get a studded collar
and pinch the ear against that
Make the dog's need to stop the pinching so
urgent that resisting your will fades in importance.
CHUCK IT Under ITS Chin With That Ever Ready
Right Hand, As it catches on, try using the stick
and no ear pinch.
When the dog is digging out to beat the stick
and seems totally reliable without any ear pinch,
you are finished
If the dog drops it, chuck it solidly under the chin,
say "No! Hold!"
(stay on the ear until it does) (perhaps because
the ear is getting tender, or the dog has decided
it isn't worth it)" lying frosty dahl.
"Chin cuff absolutely does not mean slap,"
professora gingold.
terri willis, Psychoclown wrote:
"Nope. That "beating dogs with sticks" things is
something you twisted out of context, because you
are full of bizarro manure."
"Pudge Was So Soft That She Could And
Would Avoid A Simple Swat On The Rump
With A Riding Crop," lying frosty dahl,
discoverer of CANNIBALISM in Labradors.
"Chin CHUCK absolutely doesn't mean slap,"
professora gingold.
"BethF" <b...@NOT-SO-bad-dawgs-in-ak.com>
wrote in message
news:v4r8kkf...@corp.supernews.com...
Kyle, FWIW, i thought it was pretty funny,
and i often call my little dog the turd, because
he is one. Some folks think its HORRRIBLE i
would insult my dog like that so i guess its just a
matter of personality.
Kyle, the best way to teach him to stay away is to
step on him once. Seriously.
"Whatever Motivates The Dog, But I Daresay Most
Of The Dogs I Have In Classes Just Aren't That
Interested In Praise."
"BethF" <d...@alaska.com> wrote in message
news:uohnj3r...@corp.supernews.com...
Maybe that's what we should do - hold back the dobie
girl so that Izzy can put Simon in his place.
"Granted That The Dog Who Fears Retribution
Will Adore His Owner," lying "I LOVE KOEHLER"
lynn.
lyinglynn writes to a new foster care giver:
For barking in the crate - leave the leash on and
pass it through the crate door. Attach a line to
it. When he barks, use the line for a correction.-
if necessary, go to a citronella bark collar," Lynn K.
"Training is not confrontation,"Lynn K.
<except when it is>
"Unfortunately, some confrontation is necessary,
just to be able to handle the dogs. For example,
we need to crate train a dog immediately because
they are usually in need of medical care and they
are in foster homes with other dogs. It's a safety
necessity," lying "I LOVE KOEHLER" lynn.
"Training is not confrontation,"Lynn K.
<except when it is>
"So what? Whoever said that it's right to
always not confront? We sure can try, but
a dog who knows a command and growls when
given it is certainly being confrontational".
You can't simply walk away and pretend it
didn't happen or leave it for later work in
every situation." Lynn K.
--------------------
"After Numerous Training Classes, Behavioral
Consultations, And Hundreds Of Dollars In Vet
Bills, I Killed My Dalmatian Several Years Ago
Due To Extreme Dog-Aggressiveness," mustang sally.
"I'll bet you don't know a thing about me.
I volunteered as assistant to the euthanasia
tech at our local shelter for a while, and
I know a bit about overpopulation and unwanted
animals.
This however has nothing at all to do with
responsible breeders, because responsible
breeders don't contribute to that problem,"
Mustang Sally.
Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2001
Subject: Re: shock collars
Sally Hennessey <greyho...@ncweb.com> wrote in message
news:b8m1dtsv6vuiblo63...@4ax.com...
Aside from being incredibly offensive and self-
righteous, this post shows and absence of knowledge
in the differences in dogs' temperaments, or perhaps
a lack of ability to perceive same.
The fact that you, Alison, have never met a dog to
whom corrections and discomfort, even pain, were
unimportant does not mean that such dogs do not exist.
What it means is that you don't know as much about
dogs as you think you do, and you surely don't know
a damn thing about Harlan or anyone else's dog here.
I had a Dalmatian that would instigate fights with
one of her housemates; that dog had no fear or
anything, and pain incurred during a fight meant
nothing to her.
I know that that dog is not unique, and I'm sure many
people here can tell similar stories. The fact that
you, Alison, continue to say things to people such as
what you said to Theresa about causing her dog to
suffer (at least I guess that's what you meant by
"you cause your dog suffers" - - must be the King's
English you guys talk about over there) means that
you are an ignorant, arrogant, insensitive person
who is not worth further notice.
Sally Hennessey
"Sally Hennessey" <greyho...@ncweb.com> wrote in message
news:54nuetsqgkhp26qqv...@4ax.com...
Nope. No more than you'd convince Patch that
prongs and e-collars, in the right hands, are not
intrinsically abusive; or that dogs trained properly
with prongs or e-collars are not fearful, in pain, or
intimidated; or that any one of us here knows our
own dogs and their reactions better than someone
who has never seen them or us...hmmm.
I'm starting to see some similarities here.
Sally Hennessey
> I would very strongly suggest you find another class
> to attend where these things are not used or allowed.
Here's janet's PARTNER:
"The actual quote is misleading when taken out of context"
sinofabitch writes:
> > What I have said- repeatedly - is that he
> > took posts from two different people,
> > took pieces of them out of context,
Of curse. QUOTED. You wanna see it in context?
> > cobbled them together,
No. There was WON DIRECT QUOTE.
> > then added his own words:
"Neatly," and "Smartly."
> > and a fake signature.
"sinofabitch" instead of sionnach.
> > Which is exactly what he did.
INDEEDY. That's HOWE COME you deny it.
> > The actual quote is misleading
That so?
> > when taken out of context,
We'd been talkin abHOWET beatin the dog with a shoe...
> > and Jerry's faked "quote"
The WON sinofabitch totally DENIES.
> > is downright meaningless.
Only if you're a MENTAL CASE.
Here's Jerry's version
"I Dropped The Leash, Threw My
Right Arm Over The Lab's Shoulder,
Grabbed Her Opposite Foot With My
Left Hand, Rolled Her On Her Side,
Leaned On Her, Smartly Growled Into
Her Throat And Said "GRRRR!" And
Neatly Nipped Her Ear," sinofabitch.
Here's yours:
"I dropped the leash, threw my
right arm over the Lab's shoulder,
grabbed her opposite foot with my
left hand, rolled her on her side,
leaned on her, said "GRRRR!" and
nipped her ear.
--Sara Sionnach
"The actual quote is misleading when taken out of context"
See?
> The headcollar is a very useful piece of equipment
INDEEDY. It was designed by Dra. Alice DeGroote.
The Sincerely Incredibly Freakin Insanely Simply Amazing
Grand Puppy, Child, Pussy, Birdy And Horsey Wizard talked
to Dra. DeGroote again a couple months ago. She was HORRIFIED
what's become of her USEFUL training tool <{) : ~ ( >
It's been totally misued, modified and plagiarized
by unethickal dog abusin cowards like we got here.
> and if properly used will stop your dog pulling,
RIGHT. Particularly on dogs who've got a long history
of being jerked choked and shocked by these pathetic
miserable stinkin lyin dog murderin mental cases.
> your first consideration is get the right size they
> come is sizes 0 to 5. When you first put the head
> collar on the dog will probably not like it
It takes MINUTES to EXXXTINGUISH the dog's objection to it.
> so just put on for a few minutes and give him some
> tasty treats and do this each time you put in on him
> so that he sees the head collar with nice things.
You mean DESPITE that:
"Despite Skinner's clear denunciation of "negative
reinforcement" (1958) NEARLY EVER LEARNING THEORY
model involves the USE OF PUNISHMENT. Of curse,
Skinner has never to my knowledge, demonstrated
HOWE we escape the phenomenon that an expected
reward not received is experienced as a punishment
and can produce extensive and persistent aggression
(Azrin et al, 1966)."
"The IMBECILITY of some of the claims for operant
technique simply take the breath away. Lovas et al
(1966) report a standard contingent reward/punishment
procedure developing imitative speech in two severly
disturbed non verbal schizophrenic boys. After twenty-
six days the boys are reported to have been learning
new words with alacrity. HOWEver, when REWARDS were
moved to a delayed contingency the behavior and learning
immediately deteriorated."
> When you start to walk him with it on, have him on
> your left side and hold the lead in your right hand,
> when he starts to pull, gently pull his head round
> towards you,
AND RELEASE the tension on the halter.
> this will bring his whole body round
UNLESS you FAIL to INSTANTLY RELEASE
the tension on the halter when the dog faces the
correct direction.
> which stops him pulling,
NOT if you don't RELEASE the tension on the head halter
AS SOON AS he faces straight ahead <{) : ~ ( >
> practice with this and he will soon stop pulling.
In just a couple minutes, if you know HOWE to pupperly
handle the head halter, JUST LIKE HOWE you'd handle
any other collar IF YOU KNOW HOWE to pupperly
handle a leash or halter or line on ANY critter, horsey,
doggy, or even a BIG FISH on a lite line <{} ; ~ ) >
It's ALL the same same.
> George Anderson
> dogg...@virgin.net
> When a dog wags it's tail and barks at the same time,
> it is the bark you should heed.
INDEEDY.
Punishment ALWAYS Deranges Behavior.
"NO!" Does NOT Have Any Behavioral Function
EXCEPT
To DERANGE Behaviors.
Here's professor "SCRUFF SHAKE and SCREAM NO! into ITS face for
five seconds and lock IT in a box for ten minutes contemplation"
dermer of the Department of ANAL-ytic Behavior at UofWI, pryor:
From: Marshall Dermer (der...@alpha1.csd.uwm.edu)
Subject: Re: Jerry's Dog Training Manual
Date: 2001-07-12 06:49:13 PST
And how do we know this aspect of his
advice is right?
Jerry is not God and his manual is not the Bible.
His advice could be subject to an empirical analysis.
(Also, it is best to killfile posts from the
few regulars here who are either ill-tempered,
ill-mannered, or just plain ill.),
--Marshall
Marshall Lev Dermer/ Department of Psychology/ University of
Wisconsin-Milwaukee/ Milwaukee, WI 53201/ der...@uwm.edu
http://www.uwm.edu/~dermer
"Life is just too serious to be taken entirely seriousyl!"
From: der...@alpha1.csd.uwm.edu (Marshall Dermer) -
Date: 1998/08/28
Subject: Re: Puppy growls and snaps
In article <6s6ea0$8c...@uwm.edu> der...@alpha1.csd.uwm.edu (Marshall
Dermer) writes: In article <35E60819.65178...@pilot.msu.edu>
> >tami sutherland <suthe...@pilot.msu.edu> writes:
>> However, there have been incidences where she has
>> growled and snapped at us...for instance, when we
>> were trying to dry her off after bathtime.
> When your three-month old pooch growls or snaps, IMMEDIATELY
> pick her up ONLY by the skin at the back of her neck, for 5
> sec, and loudly say, "NO!" Alternatively, say "NO!" and hold
> her mouth shut for say 15 sec.
> If she so snaps that you can't do the above then you
> will have to find another way to administer a prompt
> correction, for example, throwing a can filled with
> pennies, or a tug on the collar. --Marshall
"Oops! I would start by only holing her mouth
shut for say 5 sec.
At this point, "No" does not have any behavioral function.
But, if you say "No,"pick up the puppy by its neck and
shake it a bit, and the frequency of the biting decreases
then you will have achieved too things.
First, the frequency of unwanted chewing has decreased;
and two, you have established "No" as a conditioned punisher.
How much neck pulling and shaking? Just the
minimum necessary to decrease the unwanted
biting.
**********IS THAT A CONSISTENT 5 SECONDS?************
When our dog was a puppy, "No" came before mild
forms of punishment (I would hold my dog's mouth
closed for a few seconds.) whereas "Bad Dog" came
before stronger punishement (the kind discussed above).
"No" is usually sufficient but sometimes I use "Bad Dog"
to stop a behavior. "Bad Dog" ALWAYS works," marshall
dermer, research professor of ANAL-ytic behaviorISM at
UofWI. For MOORE animal abuse, please visit dr p.
BWAHAHAHHAHAAAA!!!!!
That's INSANE. Ain't it.
P.S. Contacting Dr. P:
Please note that due to the large number of
requests I receive, I can no longer give free,
personal advice on problems related to dog
training and behavior.
In order for me to give such advice we would
have to "talk" about the problem at length.
That is, I would need detailed information about
the dog, it's environment and routine, the problem,
and the situation in which the problem occurs.
Thus, this type of consultation takes time which
I cannot afford to give away for free.
If you wish such advice, please see the information
I have provided about my K9 Behavioral Consulting
practice. Another alternative to obtaining personal
advice is to participate in e-mail, chat room, &
newsgroup discussions.
P.P.S. BWEEEEEEEAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAAA!!!
YOU'RE FRAUDS, drs p. and dermer!
Either DEFEND your LIES, ABUSE And
Degrees or get the heel HOWETA THIS
BUSINESS.
From: "George von Hilsheimer, Ph.D." <drv...@mindspring.com>
To: "Jerry Howe" <theamazingpuppywiz...@mail.com>
Subject: Alleged Professors of Animal Behavior
Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 12:50:51 -0400
Dear Jerry, I paged through some of the "dog business"
and was astonished at the low quality of opinions arising
from professors of behavior analysis.
I had the very great privilege of meeting Sam Corson
(Pavlov's last Ph.D. student) and his dogs at Ohio
University. I even got to spend a night at Sam's house.
There is no question but that you are a spiritual brother
to Corson and to Pavlov, both of whom knew that the dog's
great capacity for love was the key to shaping doggie behavior.
Paradoxical reward and paradoxical fixing of attention are
both well documented Pavlovian techniques. Even so humorless
a chap as B.F. Skinner taught students like the Breland's whose
"The Misbehavior of Organisms" demonstrate the utility of your
methods and their deep roots in scientific (as opposed to
commercial) psychology.
George von Hilsheimer, Ph.D., F.R.S.H.
you may find my resume in Who's Who in
Science and Technology
Here's professor dermer AFTER gettin JERRYIZED:
"We Are Lucky To Have You, And More People Should
Come To Their Senses And Support Your Valuable Work.
God Bless The Puppy Wizard," Professor Marshall Dermer,
Dept Of ANAL-ytic Behavior, UofWI.
From: "Marshall Dermer" <der...@csd.uwm.edu>
To: "The Puppy Wizard"
<ThePuppyWiz...@earthlink.net>
Sent: Friday, July 23, 2004 2:53 PM
Subject: God Bless The Puppy Wizard
Dear Mr. Puppy Wizard,
I have, of late, come to recognize your genius
and now must applaud your attempts to save
animals from painful training procedures.
You are indeed a hero, a man of exceptional talent,
who tirelessly devotes his days to crafting posts to
alert the world to animal abuse.
We are lucky to have you, and more people should
come to their senses and support your valuable
work.
Have you thought of establishing a nonprofit
charity to fund your important work?
Have you thought about holding a press conference
so others can learn of your highly worthwhile
and significant work?
In closing, my only suggestion is that you
try to keep your messages short for most
readers may refuse to read a long message
even if it is from the wise, heroic Puppy Wizard.
I wish you well in your endeavors.
--Marshall Dermer
Subject: < BEFORE -> "Jerry, You filthy, Unctuous,
No Good Charlatan,"
< AFTER -> "Thank You Jerry For Putting Up With
A Constant Barrage Of Really Infantile
Crap At The Hands Of Supposedly Adult
Dog Lovers.
'Naive' Is Believing You Can Terrorize
A Dog Into Good Behavior," Robert Crim.
>Subject: Re: Fritz---a retrospective
>Date: 02/05/1999
>Author: Robert Crim <fritzg...@earthlink.net>
> You filthy, unctuous, no good charlatan. If you had
> any idea of what dogs and dog people were about
> you would realize the depths of the absolute loathing
> and contempt I hold for you right now. Were it not
> for the blessed distance and anonymity that the internet
> gives us from the scummy likes of you, I would probably
> be in a jail cell right now for turning you into the pile
> of shit you really are
Hey, Howe, you really are a wacko, eh?
Crim wrote this about *YOU,* you insipid piece of cow dung!
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
--
Dogman
mailto:dog...@i1.net
http://www.i1.net/~dogman
=====================
> On Thu, 17 Jun 1999 20:24:15 -0700, dogsnus
<"Terri"@cyberhighway> Wrote:>
> Hey, do like me, and killfile Jerry.
> He has millions of people aleady reading his posts and
> watching him extract his soggy foot out of his mouth!
> Out of these MILLIONS, I've only seen 2 naive childs
> come forward and actually believe in his training manual.
Robert Crim writes:
I assume that I and my wife are those two naive childs
since I freely admit to having read and, I hope,
understood enough of the manual and it's counterparts by
John Fisher and the posts of Marilyn Rammell to believe
and use it.
This naive child would like to say thank you to both
Jerry and Marilyn for putting up with a constant barrage
of really infantile crap at the hands of supposedly
adult dog lovers.
The other naive child (LSW) has to put up with the
nagging idea that if people like them had been posting
earlier, maybe we would not have had to hold the head
of a really magnificent animal in our arms while he was
given the needle and having to hug him and wait until he
gasped his last gasp.
To my mind, "naive" is believing you can terrorize a dog.
Naive is believing that people that hide behind fake
names are more honest than people that use their real
names. Naive is thinking that dilettante dog breeders
and amateur "trainers" like Joey (lyingdogDUMMY, j.h.)
are the equal or better than those that have studied and
lived by their craft for decades.
"Stupid" is believing that people do not see kindergarten
level insults for what they are. Really stupid is believing
that people like Jerry Howe and Marilyn Rammell are
going to just go away because you people act like fools.
Why do you act like fools? I really have no idea, and I
don't really care.
> And, to date: I've not seen ONE come forward and
> actually admit to buying and having success with his
> little black box.
I think I'm going to get one myself for Father's day and
take it down to the Animal Shelter for their use and
testing. You would never believe the results, so you'll
never know.
> Anyone by now that doesn't see a scam man coming by
> Jerry's posts deserves to get what is sure to be coming
> to him! LOL!
I don't see a "scam man", so I guess I and Longsuffering
Wife and Rollei will just have to get what we deserve,
eh? As Joey (Dogman) says, "poor Rollei.".......right.
>Terri
Yes it was, and that is sad.
Robert, Longsuffering Wife and Rollei (do I get to
listen to the box first?)
===========
Crim wrote THAT about *YOU,* tommy,
"you insipid piece of cow dung!"
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
From: "The Puppy Wizard" <ThePuppyWiz...@EarthLink.Net>
Date: Wed, 03 Nov 2004 17:26:31 GMT
Subject: Dr. George VonHilshimer Writes: "No Loving, No Learning."
HOWEDY People,
Perhaps the PROBLEM is "TOO MANY WORDS?"
From: "The Puppy Wizard" <ThePuppyWiz...@EarthLink.Net>
To: "George von Hilsheimer, Ph.D." <drv...@mindspring.com>
Sent: Friday, October 29, 2004 4:40 AM
Subject: Fw: Counter Cruising must stop
> From: "diannes" <dian...@bolt.sonic.net>
> Newsgroups: rec.pets.dogs.behavior
> Sent: Friday, October 29, 2004 12:18 PM
> Subject: Re: Counter Cruising must stop
> > LeeCharlesKelley <kelleymet...@aol.com> wrote:
> > > I wrote:
> > > > LeeCharlesKelley <kelleymet...@aol.com> wrote:
> > > > > On another note: I understand why someone
> > > > > proclaiming a method that works on all dogs,
> > > > > all the time, would send up "red flag" to you
> > > > > and others, but the fact remains, if a technique
> > > > > *doesn't* work 100% of the time, with all dogs,
> > > > > then there must be a flaw in the philosophy
> > > > > underlying that technique.
> > > > Ditto for dog training. No failure nor flaw of method
> > > > is involved - that's just acceptance of reality.
> > > First of all, I didn't say that there was a flaw in the
> > > method, though anyone is welcome to make that
> > > leap.
> > > I said there was a flaw in the underlying philosophy
> > > and its model of learning.
> > Correction accepted. I think that perhaps we are using
> > terminology differently here. Here is my use of the terms:
Jerry, I don't know where you find these folk who can't read.
> In order to use negative reinforcement, one must
> typically administer the aversive stimulus in order
> to be able to terminate it.
This is not negative reinforcement. Negative means no.
Positive reinforcement = behavior emitted by dog,
reward emitted immediately by trainer;
Negative reinforcement = behavior emitted by dog,
no response by trainer;
Aversive reinforcement = behavior emitted by dog,
aversive stimuli emitted immediately by trainer;
The term "reinforcement is used only tentatively with
"aversion" because aversive stimuli (aka punishment)
typically derange learning and are not followed by clean
learning curves equivalent to those which follow reward
or positive reinforcement;
Escape conditioning = dog has an aversive stimulus
applied without any dog related reason and when
behavior is emitted aversive stim is immediately turned off .
There is some indication that Escape Conditioning
works in a manner closely approximating reward;
but, ear pinch? -- too aversive.
I remind you that you should beat them over the head
with "The Misbehavior of Organisms" by Breland and
Breland, published in B.F. Skinner's CUMULATIVE
RECORD. Ignored by most profs of psychology, but
the distillation of his work.
NO PUNISHMENT.
Must pay attention to who is the animal?
His evolution, his development, and his personal history -
cannot train without respect for who is the dog? So says
the BIG TIME operant conditioning guru - and you can also
refer back to MARY COVER JONES (mother of scientific
systematic psychology), no loving, no learning.
I suppose I could wire up a dog so that his brain was
badly interrupted and the loving method of puppy training
might not work well - but it would still work better than
the methods used by dominatrix and their ilk.
Lovingly applied ethological techniques like the one
espoused by the Wizard of ALL puppies work for all
dogs, for that matter for all mammals higher than cat.
Indeed, they will work for cats if trainer is warmly competent.
You can see this in Key West on any sunny day.
Housecats performing quite happily.
Fondly, Dr. Von
From: TooCool (larrym...@hotmail.com)
The Puppy Wizard's Wits End Training Method
I have studied canine behavior and dog training for
years. I have a huge library that covers every system
of training.
The Puppy Wizard's (Jerry Howe's) Wits' End Training
Method is by far the most scientific, the most advanced,
the kindest, the quickest and the most effective training
method yet discovered.
It is not an assortment of training tips and tricks; it is
a logically consistent system. Every behavior problem
and every obedience skill is treated in the same logically
consistent manner.
Please study his manual carefully. Please endeavor to
understand the basis of his system and please follow
his directions exactly. His manual is a masterpiece.
It is dense with theory, with explanation, with detailed
descriptions about why behavior problems occur and
how their solution should be approached.
One should not pick and choose from among his methods
based upon what you personally like or dislike. His is
not a bag of tricks but a complete and integrated system
for not only training a dog but for raising a loving companion.
When I once said to Jerry that his system creates for
you the dog of your dreams, his response was that it
produces for your dog the owner of his dreams.
You see, Jerry has discovered that if you are gentle
with your dog then he will be gentle with you, if you
praise your dog every time he looks at you, then you
will become the center of your dogs world, if you use
Jerry's sound distraction with praise, then it takes
just minutes-sometimes merely seconds-to train your
dog to not misbehave (even in your absence) (Just 15
seconds this morning to train my 10 week old puppy to
lie quietly and let me clip his nails).
Using Jerry's scientific method (sound distraction /
praise / alteration / variation) it takes just minutes to
train you dog to respond to your commands.
What a pleasure it was for me to see my 6 week old
puppy running as fast has his wobbly little legs would
carry him in response to my recall command-and he
comes running every time I call no matter where we are
or what he is doing.
At ten weeks old now, my puppy never strains upon
his leash thanks to Jerry's hot & cold exercises and
his Family Pack Leadership exercises.
Jerry has discovered that if you scold your dog, if you
scream at him, if you intimidate him, if you hurt him,
if you force him then his natural response is to oppose
you.
Is Jerry a nut?
It doesn't make any difference to me whether he is or not.
It is a logical fallacy to judge a person's ideas based
upon their personality. As far as dogs are concerned, Jerry
wears his heart upon his sleeve. It touches him deeply when
he hears of trainers forcing, intimidating, scolding or
hurting dogs.
More than that, he knows that force is not effective
and that it will certainly lead to behavior problems;
sometime problems so severe that people put their
dogs down because of those problems.
I believe that it is natural for humans to want to control
their dog by force. Jerry knows this too. We have all been
at our wits' end, haven't we?
Dogs have a natural tendency to mimic. In scientific
literature it is referred to allelomimetic behavior. Dogs
respond in like kind to force; they respond in like kind
to praise.
Don't bribe your dog with treats; give him what he
wants most-your kind attention. Give him your praise.
You will be astonished at how your dog 's anxiety will
dissipate and how their behavior problems will dissipate
along with their anxiety.
Treat Jerry Howe's (The Puppy Wizard) Wits' End
Training Method as a scientific principle just as you
would the law of gravity and you will have astounding
success.
Dog behavior is just as scientific as is gravity.
If you follow Jerry's puppy rules you will get a sweet
little Magwai; if you don't you will surely get a little
gremlin (anyone see The Gremlins?). --Larry
From: Mike (m.bidd...@ns.sympatico.ca)
Subject: Re: Info. on the puppy wizard?
Date: 2004-07-18 14:27:02 PST
> > Oh, and did I mention his methods work, ya nuff said.
> > Mike
> Ok Mike which part worked for you?
It helped clear problems from my dogs in the
field using the can penny distraction technique.
Works like a charm.
My dogs get distracted easy from their jobs ie,
retrieving or training to find lost people, oh did
I mention that I am a Search and Rescue Team
Leader.
Sorry that slipped my mind.
I have read volumes of training books and don't
know where people get that Jerry copied others
work as I have NEVER come across his methods
before. I would like to see proof.
Just like Jerry outlined I eliminated problems one
at at time as they arose. I used to try and train to
the way I wanted them but this is backward, you
train out the problems leaving what you want left over.
Funny part is the second dog who had the same
problems as the other didn't need correcting for
some of his habits after I cleared it from the first
dog.
Seemed he learned through osmosis.
Nice side benefit there.
It nearly came to giving them up to a 3rd party
trainer as they were not performing well. The
VAST majority of working dog trainers are
agressive in their actions with the dogs.
I tried it and it didn't work and guess what I
was at my "Whits End" then someone I new
turned me onto Jerry and the rest is history.
I referred friends and families to Jerry's manual
and all have had great results. Starting puppies
out on the distraction technique is especially
good because they never develop the habit.
I had my sisters dog healing, sitting and down
stay reliably at 8-9 weeks. The first night home
following Jerrys advice we ditched the crate and
put the pup on the floor beside the bed and after
2 whimpers NOT A SOUND OUT OF THAT DOG
FOR 6 HRS! first night, that has never happened
in all my days.
Sorry, the man understands dogs its that simple.
Mike
"Ama...@DCFWatch.com" wrote:
No, the dog learned that I would hold still
the second she began to pull. She would pull
to go where *she* wanted.
Well if she wanted to stop and go in another
direction.. say to sniff my neighbors yard..
she learned if she wanted to do it I would stop
walking and she could go.. and if there wasn't
enough slack on her lead she would just pull me.
Then when she got done doing *her* thing, she woudl
heel.. smile at me and wait for me to say "let's go"
and finish *my* thing. I would refuse to move .. i
looked like an idiot.. freezing mid walk for minutes
waiting for *my* dog to heel and give *me* permission
to go again.
I did the treats and the let's go... she got to do her
stuff and get a cookie.. if she even wanted the cookie.
I wound up calling Jerry.. as I have a half red nose
pit and half amstaff.. who is incredibly protective..
we had a new pup on the way.. and i needed help.. i
followed petsmarts trainnign guides.. memorized them...
and they *did* work, don't get me wrong.. but only
when my pet wanted a cookie or felt the cookie was
better than what she wanted.. which was not often.
She quickly learned to ignore my commands if she
could see my hands were empty. So I called Jerry...
he chatted me for about an hour and a half.. gave me
his link... and even when i had probs intro'ing the
pup he called me withn i5 mins of my email for help
at 10pm on a sunday night.
One.. singular.. uno family pack exercise after
the hot and cold exercise and i could zig zag
down my street.. about face .. whatever.. and
never had tension.
two men were acrossed the street and she walked right
by them... ordinarily she'd snarl and protect us.
And in two days.. my dog.. who bit the puppy if he
even looked like he was going near my husband or kids..
is nursing him every hour.. cleaning him.. rough housing
gently.. and teaching him to go potty outside..
actually watches him to make sure he doesn't go in
the house... and has milk.. which is awesome since
she's 19 months old and has never had a litter.
She also has stopped barking non stop at our neighbor's
dogs and pig.. does not bark at eveyr car that drives by
and has stopped jumping on people. she's even starting
to ignore our cat who has lived on her dome litter box
and our window sill (literally) for over a year and a half.
She also does her commands on cue.. and doesn't look for a treat.
---------------
From: "George von Hilsheimer, Ph.D." <drv...@mindspring.com>
Subject: The Amazing Jerry's take on psychobabble
Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 12:13:44 -0400
You might improve the learning of folk who actually
live with and train dogs to do useful things if you
excluded everyone who uses psychobabble from your lists.
I recommend to all of you who wish to taste the flavor
of sensible animal behaviorists to read THE MISBEHAVIOR
OF ORGANISMS, Breland and Breland.
This married pair of psychologists began the long trail
of highly trained animals who are symbolized by Shamu
eating a mackrel from a girl's hand instead of eating
the much more tasty pretty girl who is exactly the size
of the natural food of killer whales, seals. Yum!
The essay, by the way, is a chapter in B.F. Skinner's
summing up book, CUMULATIVE RECORD. They include a
sentence which more or less says, "unless you understand
the personal history of the particular animal, and the
history of this animal's species and group, the developmental
history of the animal, you cannot effectively train the animal.
Pigs root and hen's scratch, if you try to train hens without
scratching or pigs without scratching or pigeons without pecking,
you aren't going to have much success.
A conditional reflex is one which is learned, the original
primitive reflex occurs no matter what the history of the
animal, and is hard wired. If you train the animal to respond,
say by ringing a bell immediately before turning on a bright
light, then you've taught the animal and made his native reflex
of pupil constriction conditional upon the ringing of a bell.
Thorndyke added some terminology to this kind of training
and insisted that when you train the animal to make gross
motor responses that this learning is "instrumental", the
animal takes action and uses an instrument.
The Russian word translated as "conditional" in all other
contexts was mistranslated by Pavlov's American translator,
Horsley Gannt, as "conditioned" and so American psychology
went haring after phantasmagora.
The major theorists for the development of the language of
operant conditioning are Edward Thorndike, John Watson, and
B. F. Skinner. Their approach to behaviorism played a major
role in the development of American psychology.
They proposed that learning is the result of the application
of consequences; that is, learners begin to connect certain
responses with certain stimuli. This connection causes the
probability of the response to change (i.e., learning occurs.)
Thorndike labeled this type of learning instrumental. Using
consequences, he taught kittens to manipulate a latch (e.g.,
an instrument). Skinner renamed instrumental as "operant"
because in this learning, one is "operating" on, and is
influenced by, the environment. Where classical conditioning
illustrates S-->R learning, operant conditioning is often
viewed as R-->S learning since it is the consequence that
follows the response that influences whether the response
is likely or unlikely to occur again.
It is through operant conditioning that
voluntary responses are learned.
One should note that Russian Psychology did very well
without the operant language, and only pettifogging
university professors ought to worry about what kind
of label we attach to the learning. Pfui!
Even Skinner understood this!
And please note if you saw the original movie, THE
MANCHURIAN CANDIDATE, you saw a Chinese psychologist
who was based on Andrew Salter, CONDITIONED REFLEX
THERAPY.
Alas, Salter didn't have a Ph.D., but he basically rescued
us from the long Freudian nightmare and returned psychotherapy
to a scientific basis. Alas, the 2nd movie didn't even cite
Salter as a source. "...all the highest nervous activity, as
it manifests itself in the conditional reflex, consists of a
continual change of these three fundamental processes --
excitation, inhibition and disinhibition." Ivan P. Pavlov
George von Hilsheimer, Ph.D., F.R.S.H.
What's important is, "does Shamu reliably eat
the fish and not the pretty girl?"
George von Hilsheimer, Ph.D., F.R.
From: "George von Hilsheimer, Ph.D." <drv...@mindspring.com
To: <d...@arcane-computing.com
Sent: Tuesday, January 04, 2005 5:38 PM
Subject: Doggy advice
Scott, Jerry Howe forwarded me the letter below.
I'm glad that you referred negatively to Jerry's
habit of CAPITALIZING and HOWEING everything.
I personally hate this habit of his. I think it is his
way of diluting his authority - IME he is a very modest
fellow. However, contrary to your sneer, he is very
competent at living with dogs.
I thought I'd list a series of actions which I found
on the list, folk asking advice on what to do about
dogs doing this and that, for example:
whining,
humping, hunching,
pacing,
self mutilation - paw licking, side sucking,
spinning,
prolonged barking, barking at shadows,
overstimulated barking,
fighting, bullying other dogs,
compulsive digging,
compulsive scratching,
compulsive chewing,
frantic behavior,
chasing light, chasing shadow,
stealing food,
digging in garbage can,
loosing house (toilet) training.
inappropriate fearfulness
aggression.
The thing that is fascinating to me, as an ethologist who
graduated from college 50 years ago and has spent all of
the intervening time working with animals (including the
human animal), is that you never see any of these behaviors
in wild dingoes, jackals, coyotes or wolves, you don't even
see these behaviors in hyenas (who aren't dog related).
You see these behaviors in human managed animals, especially
animals who live with neurotic hysterical humans.
As Sam Corson (Pavlov's last student) demonstrated for
nearly 50 years at Ohio University (Oxford, O.) there
is no treatment more useful for dogs than tender loving
care.
George von Hilsheimer, Ph. D., F. R. S. H., Diplomate,
Academy of Behavioral Medicine
"Linda" <llindaleedan...@msn.com wrote in message
news:
I have been trying for the last 18 months to help my
dog who became fear aggressive at 18 month of age.
I do not know what started the problem but he came
aggressive first with dogs and then began lunging and
snapping at people. Until this time he loved everyone
and could play with any dog. He was well socialized
ad I took him with me everywhere.
At 13 months he passed the Canine Good Citizens
Test except he could let me leave him. I had used
clicker training to teach him manners and tricks but
it was not working on his aggression problem.
I took him to vets who suggested a low protein diet,
trainers who charged $800 to only make him worse.
They tried to use a prong collar and he froze, urinated
and tried to climb on my head to help him. they then
suggested a shock collar I knew this approach was not
working as he was becoming more aggressive.
I took him to an animal behaviorist with Ph. D. 400 miles
away who told me to "KEEP HIM SAFE" and read a book
on the fearful canine. I tried another trainer who tried to
use a nylon chock collar but it only made him worse.
I read hundreds of books,"CULTURE CLASH", "DOG
ARE FROM NEPTUNE", "THE OTHER END OF THE
LEASH", ETC looking for help. We finally went to Purdue
University Small Animal Behavior Clinic and they said he
had fear aggression, punishment would not work, use the
gentle leader and when out walking and he got stressed
have the people stop until he could get in control using
treats, and work on clicker training.
At that point I knew more about clicker training and using
the gentle leader than they did! Nothing was working--he
would not come when I called him and would run away when
I tried to catch him. I was afraid to walk him even in the
neighborhood as we had become that "mean dog and women who
hasn't trained her dog"
I went to four trainers in both Michigan and Florida who
were trainer/specialists in aggression and the last two
were so afraid of him they could not approach him. No one
said I should give up on him and kill him but they would
say "You have to realize he is dangerous and you are
responsible for him."
*(You got LUCKY, Linda... They coulda got Sunshine
DEAD on us. Damned near did... too.)
As last resort I tried the internet again--I had had on
going discussions with trainers from Triple Crown and Dr
Meister with out any help-and I found the ad to Doggy Do
Right and messaged Jerry to ask if this might help my dog.
He said solving the aggression problem was EZ but I could
not believe him even when I downloaded the manual.
The name of the method was right I was at my Wits End.
I had been working for 18 months!
Using the can sound three time he came, and still comes
from anywhere with the command-"comegoodboy" Next
I tried the can when walking him--when he saw a dog three
blocks away he went off-lunging and snapping-I used the
can sound and he looked at me like uhn?
I used it three more times and we got to the other dog-
-the looked at me wagging his tail--the other person
looked at me like why are shaking that can but just walked
on by.
When ever I try to explain about the sound people look at
me like "you must be out of your mind"
The results can make a believer!!!
Three weeks since beginning the Wits End Training
Manual program I walked him without the gentle leader
in a busy shopping area with many dogs.
He just seemed to not notice any one.
When people talked to him or ask his name he would
look at then and wag his tail and let then pet him.
I still can not believe the change in him--we can now
enjoy life out in public.
If I had not found the Wits End method I know there
was no hope for him and he would have hurt someone
Through all this he never growled at me, guarded his
toys or food or showed any sign of aggression with me.
My goal is to get the message out to all dog lovers that
dogs can be trained fast, easily and problems solved with
out force, pain, food or anything but sound and praise!!!!
I know most people would have given up on him a long time
ago but he was and is my life. Solving the problem was EZ
but only with the right approach-sound and praise.
I know because I tried everything else and nothing worked!!!
================================
From: Linda Daniel
To: Jerry Howe
Sent: Monday, January 06, 2003 1:06 AM
Subject: Re: - Re: dog aggression
Thanks for writing--I would be happy to do almost anything
to get your approach out to dog owners as I know it would
save so many lives. I know at times I was so frustrated I
thought of giving up on Sunshine but of course I never would
have but many people would have. The world just does not
know you can train a dog in just a few sessions and actually
solve problems.
We will be here until late April and we really have no plans-
-just to enjoy the warmth and sun of Florida, so any time
you could meet us would be great. I drive so I would be
happy to come to you anytime anywhere!
We went to Celebration today and two little poodles got
right into his face and he just sat there--I GOT a little
scared but he handled it just fine.--a couple of times people
would ask his name and want to pet him and he just went
to them tail wagging and rolled over for them rub his tummy.
He really just is not concerned about people passing, even
those on rollerblades! I have always used a gentle leader
in public but he spent most of time rubbing his face on the
grass--today I used his collar and he was so much happier!!
Only problem is he will stop to smell and I can not get
stopped soon enough to keep the leash loose. He never
pulled ahead of me but when he gets into smelling I have
a hard time getting him going--at times I think he could
smell a blade of grass for 10 minutes.
I can never thank you enough for giving Sunshine back!!!!!
I wrote to Purdue and told them about him being able to
walk in a crowd with out the /gentle leader and not having
a problem with other people and dogs.
I told them their advice did not work. Their advice was
to use the gentle leader at all times and when he was
around people or dogs to have him sit and reward with
treats--one really good suggestions was to have people
coming toward us stop when he got stressed or aroused
and not move until we backed away-
- can you just see me yelling at people to stop on the street
until I get his attention with treats.
They also suggested the possibility of using drugs-prozac-
but thought he was too dangerous as the drug would make
him less fearful and then he might attack or become more
sure of himself and become dominate aggressive. Just had
to share their great advice with you but I am sure you have
heard it all--even I am becoming an expert on bad advice.
----------------------------------
("`-''-/").___..--''"`-._
`6_ 6 ) `-. ( ).`-.__.`)
(_Y_.)' ._ ) `._ `. ``-..-'
_..`--'_..-_/ /--'_.' ,'
(((' (((-((('' ((((
|\ _.-'~~""'~`'~)
/, ~-,__,,,.'~ ,-;;--''
|,4) ./ ' ; ;/'
'-~~;'@ ( ; ;
_.--'' _.-_..' .;.'
(,_..----''' (,..--''
Meow
/\_/\
(='.'=)
(")_(")
/),,/)
( ' ; ') kiss me
(,,)-(,,)
/),,/)
(' ; ') kiss me here
(,,)-(,,)
/),,/)
( ; ' ) kiss me here
(,,)-(,,)
/),,/)
( ; ) kiss me here
(,,)-(,,)
/)
( * ) and KISS ME HERE!
(,,)-(,,)
/|/\
(.)(.)
( (_) )
> - <
|\ _,,,---,,_
/,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_
|,4- ) )-,_..;\ ( `'-' Ahhh, THANK YOU!
'---''(_/--' `-'\_)
The Amazing Pussy Wizard <{@); ~ } >
<{#}: ~ } >8< { ~ :{@}>
<{#}: ~ } > < { ~ :{@}>
<{#}: ~ } > < { ~ :{@}>
<{#}: ~ } > http://makeashorterlink.com/?K3AD21A3D< { ~ :{@}>
<{#}: ~ } > < { ~ :{@}>
<{#}: ~ } > < { ~ :{@}>
<{#}: ~ } >8< { ~ :{@}>
Please DON'T BE The Amazing Pussy Wizard's PREY.
IT AIN'T PRETTY.
<(@}; ~ } >
Human_And_Animal_Behaviour_Foren...@hotmail.com
stinkin lyin animal abusin punk thug coward active
acute chronic long term incurable mental case,
Jeff Dege wrote:
> On Sat, 16 Sep 2006 15:27:58 +0000, George Anderson wrote:
>
> > As a dog trainer and behaviourist I was horrified
> > to read that you are using a prong collar,
Of curse.
> As a radical skinnerian cultist, rather.
That's meaningless DHOWEBLETALK, jeffie.
We can ALL learn from EVERYWON.
Even HITLER had some GOOD IDEAS, remember jeffie?
> > these things are barbaric and should be banned,
Of curse. But FIRST, shouldn't we have a METHOD
to REPLACE hurtin intimidatin an murderin innocent
defenseless dumb critters an LYIN abHOWET IT?
> > if your trainer is recommending a prong collar I would
> > very strongly suggest you find another class to attend
> > where these things are not used or allowed.
INDEEDY. So long as the "trainer" don't rely on
BRIBERY and AVOIDANCE, instead.
> Why?
You mean HOWE COME, don't you, jeffie.
> Because dogs find the aversive?
You mean on accHOWENT of dogs find 'THEM' aversive, jeffie?
> That's the whole point.
You mean, that the dog WON'T LIKE bein jerked an choked, jeffie?
That's no surprise. IN FACT, THAT'S HOWE COME YOU
CAN'T TRAIN YOUR OWN DOGS, ain't that correct, jeffie?:
> On Tue, 07 Feb 2006 17:15:50 -0600, Jeff Dege
> j...@jdege.visi.com> wrote:
> Off leash, he's fine, in some places. We spend a good amount of
> time in the yard, with him wearing only the electronic collar.
> And in the yard, I've not needed to correct him since September.
>
> It's in those places where he isn't so fine that you need to work
> with him. Until each one eventually becomes just another place.
> Presumably that's somewhere with so-called distractions?
One consequence of finding an aversive that works - that is actually
acting as a negative reinforcement instead of merely as an irritant -
is that it very quickly changes the behavior of the dog.
Lindsay writes about a study in which a number of dogs who suffered
from obsessive licking were treated with a protocol using electronic
collars. They had an 80% success rate - with a mean of six stims over
only a few weeks.
Dogs learn contextually - each behavior is learned only in
the context that it is taught in. We need to reteach the
behavior in many different contexts before it is learned in
any general sense.
But with the e-collar, Bear has learned to stay close,
when told, or to come, when called, that if we never
went anywhere new he'd appear to be perfectly trained.
I need to actively seek out new places, and new
distractions, in order to progress with his training.
-------
> > The headcollar is a very useful piece of equipment
> > and if properly used will stop your dog pulling,
INDEEDY.
HOWEver, these MENTAL CASES prefer to use them
like HOWE they use their pronged spiked pinch choke
and slip choke collars, to force, hurt and intimidate dogs.
> Except, of course, that nine of ten dogs find
> simply wearing a headcollar to be aversive -
Yeah, on accHOWENT of dog abusin mental cases think
they can put them on and FORCE and INTIMDIATE the
dog into SUBMISSION.
THAT'S HOWE COME the so called GENTLE LEADER
was invented by a N.A.D.O.I. instructor with the heelp of
her veterinary behaviorist, on accHOWENT of the K-9
Kum-A-Long WASN'T BUILT to HURT dogs <{): ~ ) >
The G.L. won't slip off when you HURT your dog with it.
IN FACT, the INSTRUCTIONS are to put the head collar
on TIGHT enough that the dog CAN'T SLIP HOWET of
it *(which IMMEDIATELY triggers the opposition reflex)
and run the length of the lead under the dog's front leg and
throw the dog ass over bucket when IT pulls in objection to
the head halter bein TOO TIGHT, consequently SUBORDINATING
the dog an teachin IT, LEADERSHIP, eh jeffie?
> which they do no with a prong.
You mean, you don't gotta CONDITION the dog to PAIN
FORCE FEAR and INTIMIDATION when you use PRONGS.
> Which is better?
You mean, jerkin an chokin on your pronged spiked pinch
choke collar Vs jerkin an chokin on your G.L. or Halti Vs
shocking and beatin IT with a stick, jeffie?
It's all the same same, AIN'T IT, jeffie?
IT AIN'T the TOOL, EXXXCEPT of curse, JUST WEARING
the PAIN FEAR FORCE and INTIMIDATION INFLICTION
DEVICE increases fear and inhibits learning, teaches mistrust
and makes dogs GO INSANE and GETS THEM DEAD.
JUST LIKE HOWE offerin and witHOWELDING bribes does, eh jeffie?
> To have the dog wear a prong that does not cause him
> discomfort or pain, except at the specific moment that
> the handler decides to impose a correction,
You mean, kinda like livin in a combat zone where you
NEVER KNOW WHEN you're GONNA GET HURT.
Hey jeffie? You assHOWELS been tellin us the DOG
does the HURTIN, you call it SELF CORRECTING,
remember jeffie?
> or to have the dog wear a headcollar that causes him constant distress?
Dogs DO NOT object to the head halter UNLESS you
don't know HOWE to CONDITION the dog to bein
comfortable wearing and using it, jeffie.
That MEANS you gotta STOP TRYIN to HURT the dog with it.
> The latter, of course, if you're a purely positive extremists.
No, jeffie. IF you was a "purely positive EXXXTREMIST"
you WOULDN'T, no, you COULDN'T rely on ANY of
the so called TRAININ METHODS and TOOLS you
pathetic miserable stinkin lyin animal murdrin mental
cases PREFER to use, WOULD YOU, jeffie <{) : ~ ) >
> Because the official canon of the purely positive cultists
You mean the incompetent bullshit artists like yourslf, jeffie?
> is that prongs are always bad
On accHOWENT of JUST SEEIN the pronged spiked pinch
choke or shock collar MAKES DOGS GO INSANE, jeffie.
> and headcollars are always good,
No, not if you use them to FORCE CON-TROLL, jeffie.
> regardless of what the dogs thinks about it.
Oh? You mean LIKE THIS, jeffie?:
From: Jeff Dege <j>
Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2005 21:58:22 -0500
Subject: Re: Squirrell chasing / Prey drive !!!!
On Tue, 13 Sep 2005 19:06:57 -0400, buzzsaw wrote:
> A Loose Leash !?! Are you kidding me ... this
> dog is ready to go and the site of a squirell he
> is gone loose leash, tight leash, no leash.
> He can see them clear as far as 5 blocks,
> in fact when a leaf blows he is ready to bounce.
> He sees a empty water bottle, or a sprinkle head
> on the grass as approaching he is tensing up
> because it just may be rocky the squirell.
> I think the e collar is appropiate here?
> Although I never used one on him.
Won't make any difference.
I've been using an e-collar with my JRT, and it's
worked wonders for his recall. But the one time
he bolted after something small and furry, he paid
no attention to the collar until after he'd brought
it to bay.
Jeff Dege.
--------------------------
BWEEEEEEEEEEEAAAHAHAHAHHAHAAA!!!
Too bad you don't know HOWE to train your dog
not to attack innocent defenseless dumb critters, jeff,
like your own MOMMA:
From: Jeff Dege
Date: Thurs, Sep 15 2005 3:19 pm
Email: Jeff Dege <j>
On Thu, 15 Sep 2005 22:12:03 +0300, Opinicus wrote:
> So would I. The problem arises when the humans don't
> correctly interpret the canines' warning and don't back off.
Sometimes, humans shouldn't back off.
Case in point:
I have two chairs in front of the TV. I usually sit in
one when I'm watching, and my Bear often sits int it when
I am not.
My mother was over, and we'd both grabbed plates of whatever
and headed in to watch TV. I was first, and Bear was in my chair.
As soon as he saw me, he hopped out and ran over and hopped
into the other chair. Without my saying a word.
When my mother approached the other chair, he growled.
This is not a situation where you want to back off.
He's growling to see if he can get away with it.
And if you let him, you're just setting
yourself up for future problems.
That said, I don't mean you should attack him, mess
about with "alpha rolls", grab his collar and pull
him off, etc. Just tell him to get off the damned
chair, and make sure he complies.
============
GOT ANY CITES PLEASE, jeffie?
Maybe sumpthin LIKE THIS?:
> Jeff Dege <j> said in
> rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
> So my dog is going to decide that sitting beside me is more
> interesting than chasing the squirrel across the street
> because he _trusts_ me?
> In a convoluted way, and in part, Lucy is right. As Mary wrote,
> dogs put up with our human idiosyncrasies because we've built up
> a bond of trust. And *not* chasing a squirrel is certainly a
> strange thing from a dog's POV.
> Lucy, though, thinks that every dog is a dog, and that my Aussie
> will react to a squirrel the same way a hound or a Huskie will.
> In my house, "trust" with a prey-motivated dog involves a leash.
Near is a Jack Russell. And I trust that when he's
in prey-drive, he'll not even hear me call him.
-----------
BWEEEEEEEEEEAAAHAHAHAHHAAAA!!!
Like when he's grHOWELIN at you momma
or chasing squirrels DESPITE your SHOCK
COLLAR, jeffie?
INSTEAD of USIN PRAISE <{} : ~ ( >
LIKE THIS:
Date: 5/22/03 11:24:35 PM Eastern
Daylight Time
From: p...@cfl.rr.com
To: Witsend...@aol.com
Well, let me tell you, your Wits' End
Dog Training Method works.
My dog, Dasie, Loves to chase chameleons
around the barbecue on the patio. I
used this system on four different occasions.
When she went out today, she looked
everywhere else but the barbecue.
Amazing, just amazing.
I will write to Amanda about the video.
I am really excited to learn more, and
understand. Maybe just a little reassurance
that I am going about it the right way.
Thanks again
Paul
--------------------
AND LIKE THIS:
Subject: Chasing squirrels
From: lindalee
Date: Sat, Jan 21 2006 10:34 pm
Email: "lindalee" <llindaleedan...@msn.com>
I have not posted to the group for awhile but want to
share my success of teaching my dog Sunshine, who has
a very high prey drive, to not go after squirrels when
on a walk.
It took a few trials but he can now walk right
past squirrels running up a tree or in a yard.
Using Jerry Howe's approach I used a sound to get his
attention when he saw a squirrel and then praised him
and kept on walking past the squirrel.
Where we live in Michigan we lots of squirrels and
he was always wanting to chase them up a tree.
Jerry's approach of sound and praise really works.
I think the people who discount his methods have never
tried the method because it works everytine. Sometimes
it takes a little practice to get the sound from different
directions but I was able to change Sunshine's behavior in
just a week after we moved back to Michigan.
Sunshine is a very sensitive dog so any physical corrections
just won't work but using sound and praise he is a really great
dog who opens doors, picks up things I drop, and and helps me
a lot.
If you have a behavior problem with your dog get a
copy of Jerrry's manual and solve your problem!
---------------
pfoley
I am not going to suggest to you which collar to use; you will have to find
out for yourself which works best for you and your dog, but I don't think I
would take the advice of the store clerk. The clerk might think the prong
collar is cruel and painful, which it is not. When I took my Rottie to
training class, my trainer told me not to ever use a choke chain, as they
can damage a dog's throat from the dog constantly pulling on it, and to use
a large link prong collar. He demonstrated on himself that it was not
dangerous to the dog, by pulling hard on his arm and releasing. The idea of
the prong collar is a quick tug and quick release. It does have to fit
properly or it will fall off. Sometimes, all it needs is for one link to be
squeezed and tightened a little. The prongs are all removeable. He also
told me to take a six inch piece of cotton clothesline rope and attach a
snap latch on each end, to be attached from the leash to the dog's leather
collar, (common materials found in a hardware store) not to a choke chain.
A couple of times the prong collar did open up and fall off, but since I had
the attachment from the leash to the leather collar, she was still on the
leash. I did tighten the prong collar after it fell off and did not have
that problem again. I don't even use the little attachment any longer; I
only used it while training her. I have never tried that other collar the
clerk talked about on my present Rotty, but I do know that some dogs hate
them and some others will finally get used to them after a lot of balking.
I tried one of those on my previous Rott, but she was able to remove it in
seconds and that was the end of that idea; I then returned to the prong
collar. I don't know what a small pinch collar is, but I would think a
large powerful dog could break it easily; I don't know that for sure, as I
have never used one, but it would seem to make sense to use a larger
stronger size collar on a powerful dog.
The dog trainer I had was a trainer that also trained dogs for search and
rescue, schutzhund and and police service He had many years of experience.
-----------
Human_And_Animal_Behavior_Foren...@hotmail.com
"Jeff Dege" <jd...@jdege.visi.com> wrote in message
news:pan.2006.09.16....@jdege.visi.com...
> On Sat, 16 Sep 2006 09:31:45 -0400, Handsome Jack Morrison wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 15 Sep 2006 22:11:24 -0500, Jeff Dege <jd...@jdege.visi.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Don't listen to me. Don't listen to the clerk.
>>>
>>>Listen to your dog.
>>
>> Actually, I don't agree with that sentiment, either.
>>
>> He should be listening to his *trainer.* Period.
>>
>> What, pray tell, is he paying a trainer for, if it's not to show him
>> how to train his dog? What kind of equipment to use? How to use it?
>
> Far too many trainers have fixed ideas about what effect which tools of on dogs -
You mean you GOT NO METHOD, eh jeffie?
You mean you EXXXPERIMENT on dogs using different PAIN TOOLS, jeffie?
> when the simple truth is different dogs respond differently.
Oh. THAT'S on accHOWENT of your TOOLS rely on
PUNISHMENT and PUNISHMENT ALWAYS deranges
behaviors:
From: "George von Hilsheimer, Ph.D." <drv...@mindspring.com>
To: "Jerry Howe" <theamazingpuppywiz...@mail.com>
Subject: Alleged Professors of Animal Behavior
Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 12:50:51 -0400
Dear Jerry, I paged through some of the "dog business"
and was astonished at the low quality of opinions arising
from professors of behavior analysis.
I had the very great privilege of meeting Sam Corson
(Pavlov's last Ph.D. student) and his dogs at Ohio
University. I even got to spend a night at Sam's house.
There is no question but that you are a spiritual brother
to Corson and to Pavlov, both of whom knew that the dog's
great capacity for love was the key to shaping doggie behavior.
Paradoxical reward and paradoxical fixing of attention are
both well documented Pavlovian techniques. Even so humorless
a chap as B.F. Skinner taught students like the Breland's whose
"The Misbehavior of Organisms" demonstrate the utility of your
methods and their deep roots in scientific (as opposed to
commercial) psychology.
George von Hilsheimer, Ph.D., F.R.S.H.
you may find my resume in Who's Who in
Science and Technology
From: "The Puppy Wizard" <ThePuppyWiz...@EarthLink.Net>
HOWEDY People,
NO PUNISHMENT.
Fondly, Dr. Von
> If you have a trainer who is watching the dog,
THERE AIN'T NUTHIN TO SEE, dog lovers.
The Methods, Principles And Philosophy Of Behavior
Never Change,
Or They'd Not Be Scientific
And Could Not Obtain
Consistent, Reliable, Fast, Effective, Safe Results
For All Handler's And All Critters,
And ALL Behaviors
In ALL FIELDS And ALL UTILITIES,
ALL OVER The Whole Wild World,
NEARLY INSTANTLY,
As Taught In Your FREE Copy Of The Sincerely Incredibly
Freakin Insanely Simply Amazing
GRAND
Puppy, Child, Pussy, Birdy And Horsey Wizard's
100% CONSISTENTLY NEARLY INSTANTLY SUCCESSFUL
FREE
WWW Wits'End Dog, Child, Kat And Horse Training Method Manual
<{} ; ~ ) >
> to see how he responds to various training tools, great.
THAT'S the PROBLEM. You're relyin on AVERSIVE TOOLS.
> If not, you're going to have to watch the dog yourself.
You mean to SEE if IT LIKES bein jerked choked an shocked
Vs beaten with a stick, or locked in a box Vs PREFERS gettin
ITS ears toes tail an testicles pinched an twisted and offered and
witheld of bribes / rewards attention and affection <{}: ~ ( >
Sam Corson, Pavlov's Last Student Demonstrated At
UofOH, That Rehabilitation Of Hyperactive Dogs Can
Easily And Readily Be Done Using TLC. Tender Loving
Care Is At The Root Of The Scientific Management Of
Doggys. <{) ; ~ ) >
"...all the highest nervous activity, as it manifests
itself in the conditional reflex, consists of a continual
change of these three fundamental processes --
excitation, inhibition and disinhibition," Ivan P. Pavlov
"Postitive emotions arising in connection
with the perfection of a skill, irrespective
of its pragmatic significance at a given
moment, serve as the reinforcement. IOW,
emotions, not outside rewards, are what
reinforces any behavior," Ivan Pavlov.
"All animals learn best through play." -- Konrad Lorenz
> Truth is trainers (other than board-and-train trainers) don't train dogs.
INDEED?
"The IMBECILITY of some of the claims for operant
technique simply take the breath away. Lovas et al
(1966) report a standard contingent reward/punishment
procedure developing imitative speech in two severly
disturbed non verbal schizophrenic boys. After twenty-
six days the boys are reported to have been learning
new words with alacrity. HOWEver, when REWARDS were
moved to a delayed contingency the behavior and learning
immediately deteriorated."
"It is NO WONDER that the marked changes in
deviant behavior of children can be achieved
through brief, simple educative routines with
their mothers which modify the mother's social
behaviors shaping the child (Whaler, 1966). Some
clinics have reported ELIMINATION ofthe need for
child THERAPY through changing the clinical emphasis
from clinical to parental HANDLING of the child
(Szrynski 1965).
A large number of cases improved sufficiently after
preliminary contact with parents that NO treatment
of children was required, and almost ALL cases
SHOWE a remarkably shortened period for therapy.
Quite severe cases of anorexia nervosa have been
treated in own to five months by simply REPLACING
the parents temporarily with EFFUSIVELY LOVING
SUBSTITUTES (Groen, 1966)."
> They teach people how to train their own dogs.
Oh, kinda like HOWE the ces does, eh jeeffie?
HE TRAINS PEOPLE and REHABILITATES DOGS.
REMEMBER, jeffie?
> The trainer is a resource.
You mean, to show you HOWE to pupperly HURT
and INTIMDATE your dog, jeffie? Or do you mean
to show you when to give IT a cookie, eh jeffie?:
"Despite Skinner's clear denunciation of "negative
reinforcement" (1958) NEARLY EVER LEARNING THEORY
model involves the USE OF PUNISHMENT. Of curse,
Skinner has never to my knowledge, demonstrated
HOWE we escape the phenomenon that an expected
reward not received is experienced as a punishment
and can produce extensive and persistent aggression
(Azrin et al, 1966)."
> An important and valuable resource, or your
> wasting your money, but only one resource of many.
Hey jeffie? HOWE COME YOU CAN'T TRAIN YOUR OWN
DOG despite your SHOCK COLLAR and cookie bag?:
> Jeff Dege <j> said in
> rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
> So my dog is going to decide that sitting beside me is more
> interesting than chasing the squirrel across the street
> because he _trusts_ me?
> In a convoluted way, and in part, Lucy is right. As Mary wrote,
> dogs put up with our human idiosyncrasies because we've built up
> a bond of trust. And *not* chasing a squirrel is certainly a
> strange thing from a dog's POV.
> Lucy, though, thinks that every dog is a dog, and that my Aussie
> will react to a squirrel the same way a hound or a Huskie will.
> In my house, "trust" with a prey-motivated dog involves a leash.
Near is a Jack Russell. And I trust that when he's
in prey-drive, he'll not even hear me call him.
-----------
BWEEEEEEEEEEAAAHAHAHAHHAAAA!!!
Oh? You mean LIKE THIS, jeffie?:
Jeff Dege.
--------------------------
BWEEEEEEEEEEEAAAHAHAHAHHAHAAA!!!
Case in point:
----------------------
Re: Dog Whisperer Week on National Geographic
Date: Wed, 02 Aug 2006
"Handsome Jack Morrison" <handsomeja...@gmail.com>
wrote in message news:i222d25gibj3sdv85...@4ax.com...
Well, again, "shit" happens.
It's possible to avoid "shit" from happening altogether, by never
doing anything, but that doesn't help dogs very much, does it?
But as some folks are wont to say: "Management always fails."
It'll fail for you one day, too. And I bet it already
has, probably many times, in fact.
The more dogs you try to manage, the more
things you try to do, the more times it'll fail.
Because I've see too much "shit" actually happen,
and know that it's impossible to totally prevent.
"Shit" has happened a number of times just today, at
my place, because someone simply forgot to do what
he was supposed to do. He's done it correctly, oh,
maybe a thousand times now, but today he didn't, and
"shit" happened.
Actually, you should feel pretty good about the fact "
that he actually shows "shit" happening on his show.
--------------
BWWWWEAAAHAHAHAHAAAA!!!
The Sincerely Incredibly Freakin Insanely Simply
A-M-A-Z-I-N-G
G-R-A-N-D
Puppy, Child, Pussy, Birdy And Horsey Wizard <{} ; ~ ) >
TaraG
>
> I appreciate all of your comments on alternate equipment and methods for
> my reluctant initiation into the world of dog training. I can see that
> there are some very strong opposing viewpoints, and all probably have some
> validity. I would like to get good results fairly quickly without
> investing too much time and effort, partly because I am overwhelmed with
> other issues at this time, and also because I hope to be able to give
> Muttley to a new owner who can invest the needed time and (tough) love
> required.
Which is why it is actually *very* likely that the prong collar *is* the
right piece of equipment for you. The head harnesses, sensation/easy walk
styles etc all require more effort put into practice than I think you're
able to do right now.
> It becomes increasingly hard for me to consider giving him to someone
> else, as I continue to bond with him and see his progress and experience
> his affection for me.
That IS often the most difficult part.
> Unfortunately I was away for a few days and did not have time to fully
> evaluate the smaller prong collar. It may also not be good to try the
> collars too soon after he returns to me. He may need a day to readjust.
Are you saying that you don't want to use the prong until he adjusts? Or you
don't want to use the head halter until then?
Not that it matters. I'd be using it *right* away to establish good behavior
immediately.
> For my adoption poster with pictures of Muttley, please see:
>
> www.smart.net/~pstech/Muttley3.doc.
It started downloading something onto my computer, so I stopped that (I
don't DL from things I'm not personally familiar with).
I bet he looks good in it, though :-)
Tara
flick
>
> It started downloading something onto my computer, so I stopped that (I
> don't DL from things I'm not personally familiar with).
I don't think it's anything sinister. It's a .doc file, not an .html, so
it's got to open a word processor so you can read it.
> I bet he looks good in it, though :-)
Very attractive dog.
flick 100785
>
> Tara
>
Melinda Shore
flick <fl...@starband.net> wrote:
>I don't think it's anything sinister. It's a .doc file, not an .html, so
>it's got to open a word processor so you can read it.
Uh, Office macros are a common infection vector, and it's
very common to have Word or Word Viewer configured to open
downloaded .doc files by default. Never download anything
unless you're sure of the source and the contents.
I'll refrain from commenting on your ability to identify and
evaluate risk. <-- passive-aggressive!
--
Melinda Shore - Software longa, hardware brevis - sh...@panix.com
Prouder than ever to be a member of the reality-based community
pfoley
"George Anderson" <dogg...@virgin.net> wrote in message
news:2KUOg.29800$G72....@newsfe3-gui.ntli.net...
using
> a prong collar, these things are barbaric and should be banned, if your
> trainer is recommending a prong collar I would very strongly suggest you
> find another class to attend where these things are not used or allowed.
> The headcollar is a very useful piece of equipment and if properly used
will
> stop your dog pulling, your first consideration is get the right size
they
> come is sizes 0 to 5. When you first put the head collar on the dog will
> probably not like it so just put on for a few minutes and give him some
> tasty treats and do this each time you put in on him so that he sees the
> head collar with nice things. When you start to walk him with it on,
have
> him on your left side and hold the lead in your right hand, when he starts
> to pull, gently pull his head round towards you, this will bring his whole
> body round which stops him pulling, practice with this and he will soon
stop
> pulling.
>
> George Anderson
> dogg...@virgin.net
> When a dog wags it's tail and barks at the same time,
> it is the bark you should heed.
I don't understand why you feel that way. I have never had a problem with
that collar, nor has it ever caused my dog any pain whatsoever. Actually,
it hardly affects her at all. Big dogs with large necks need something that
will control them. I certainly never heard her wince even once. With a
neck like hers it would be very difficult for a collar to hurt her at all.
The trainer taught us how to use it properly. It is just supposed to pinch
her. Most of the time I don't have to pull on it, because she just knows it
is there.
Human_And_Animal_Behavior_Foren...@hotmail.com
"TaraG" <tarag...@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:S_UOg.48$zs6.47@trndny07...
>
> "George Anderson" <dogg...@virgin.net> wrote in message
> news:2KUOg.29800$G72....@newsfe3-gui.ntli.net...
>
>> As a dog trainer and behaviourist
And PROBABLE decent human being.
George is PROBABLY NOT a active acute chronic
long term incurable miserable pathetic drunken drug
crazed lyin dog abusing punk thug coward mental
case and professional dog trainin FRAUD, like
yourself <{) : ~ ) >
>> I was horrified to read that you are using a prong collar,
That's PREFERRED amongst HOWER dog lovers.
>> these things are barbaric and should be banned,
INDEEDY.
> As a trainer who uses primarly positive methods,
"PRIMARILY", tarag?
You mean MOSTLY or AT FIRST?
Don't you find dogs work BETTER when
they AIN'T GETTIN HURT, tarag?
What DO you mean, tarag? Do you you mean you use
NICE FIRST? OR do you mean you use NICE till IT
DON'T WORK an THEN you HURT and INTIMIDATE?
Let's suppHOWES "primarily" means you use NICE
FIRST ***and*** MOSTLY and other times you use
HURT and INTIMIDATE?
Is THAT scientific consistentcy, tarag?
Wouldn't MIXING UNCONDITIONAL TRUST
LOVE ATTENTION and RESPECT with PAIN
FEAR FORCE an BRIBERY teach INSECURITY,
MISTRUST, GREED and FEAR?
> I think this type of thinking is narrowminded,
INDEEDY.
You gotta UNDERSTAND HOWE you METHODS WORK.
All you understand is pain fear force intimidation avoidance and
bribery:
"Despite Skinner's clear denunciation of "negative
reinforcement" (1958) NEARLY EVER LEARNING THEORY
model involves the USE OF PUNISHMENT. Of curse,
Skinner has never to my knowledge, demonstrated
HOWE we escape the phenomenon that an expected
reward not received is experienced as a punishment
and can produce extensive and persistent aggression
(Azrin et al, 1966)."
"The IMBECILITY of some of the claims for operant
technique simply take the breath away. Lovas et al
(1966) report a standard contingent reward/punishment
procedure developing imitative speech in two severly
disturbed non verbal schizophrenic boys. After twenty-
six days the boys are reported to have been learning
new words with alacrity. HOWEver, when REWARDS were
moved to a delayed contingency the behavior and learning
immediately deteriorated."
> and unfortunately not very knowledgeable about equipment.
You mean your pain fear force and intimidation devices, tarag?
If your INTENT is to HURT the dog to MAKE IT WORK then
you should oughta get yourself a nice shock collar and turn it
up to the highest settin and turn it on till the dog does what
you asked and then give him a cookie and then fade HOWET
the shock till IT is workin only for the cookie and then fade
the cookie till IT is workin for the favor of not getting shocked
and locked in the box.
Sam Corson, Pavlov's Last Student Demonstrated At
UofOH, That Rehabilitation Of Hyperactive Dogs Can
Easily And Readily Be Done Using TLC. Tender Loving
Care Is At The Root Of The Scientific Management Of
Doggys. <{) ; ~ ) >
"...all the highest nervous activity, as it manifests
itself in the conditional reflex, consists of a continual
change of these three fundamental processes --
excitation, inhibition and disinhibition," Ivan P. Pavlov
"Postitive emotions arising in connection
with the perfection of a skill, irrespective
of its pragmatic significance at a given
moment, serve as the reinforcement. IOW,
emotions, not outside rewards, are what
reinforces any behavior," Ivan Pavlov.
"All animals learn best through play." -- Konrad Lorenz
"It is NO WONDER that the marked changes in
deviant behavior of children can be achieved
through brief, simple educative routines with
their mothers which modify the mother's social
behaviors shaping the child (Whaler, 1966). Some
clinics have reported ELIMINATION ofthe need for
child THERAPY through changing the clinical emphasis
from clinical to parental HANDLING of the child
(Szrynski 1965).
A large number of cases improved sufficiently after
preliminary contact with parents that NO treatment
of children was required, and almost ALL cases
SHOWE a remarkably shortened period for therapy.
Quite severe cases of anorexia nervosa have been
treated in own to five months by simply REPLACING
the parents temporarily with EFFUSIVELY LOVING
SUBSTITUTES (Groen, 1966)."
The Methods, Principles And Philosophy Of Behavior
Never Change,
Or They'd Not Be Scientific
And Could Not Obtain
Consistent, Reliable, Fast, Effective, Safe Results
For All Handler's And All Critters,
And ALL Behaviors
In ALL FIELDS And ALL UTILITIES,
ALL OVER The Whole Wild World,
NEARLY INSTANTLY,
As Taught In Your FREE Copy Of The Sincerely Incredibly
Freakin Insanely Simply Amazing
GRAND
Puppy, Child, Pussy, Birdy And Horsey Wizard's
100% CONSISTENTLY NEARLY INSTANTLY SUCCESSFUL
FREE
WWW Wits'End Dog, Child, Kat And Horse Training Method Manual
<{} ; ~ ) >
A DOG Is A Dog;
As A KAT Is A KAT;
As A BIRDY Is A BIRDY;
As A HORSE Is A HORSE;
As A CHILD IS A CHILD;
As A SP-HOWES Is a SP-HOWES;
As A Mass Murderer Is A Mass Murderer.
ALL Critters Only Respond In
PREDICTABLE INNATE NORMAL NATURAL
INSTINCTIVE REFLEXIVE Ways;
To Situations And Circumstances Of Their Environment
Which We Create For Them.
You GET The Critter You TRAINED
In The Problem Animal Behavior BUSINESS
FAILURE MEANS DEATH.
SAME SAME SAME SAME,
For The Problem Child Behavior BUSINESS.
Damn The Descartean War of "Nature Vs Nurture."
We Teach By HOWER Words And Actions
And GET BACK What We TAUGHT.
ALL Temperament And Behavior Problems Are CAUSED BY
MISHANDLING
"If you talk with the animals, they will talk with you
and you will know each other.
If you do not talk to them, you will not know them,
and what you do not know you will fear.
What one fears, one destroys."
Chief Dan George
> And I say this as someone who hasn't used a prng collar in over 4 years.
BWEEEEAAAAAHAHHAAAA!!!
You stopped usin a "PRNG" on accHOWENT of NOT HURTIN
DOGS WORKS BETTER, tarag? IS THAT HOWE COME?
> By the way, most Behaviorists don't also call themselves Dog Trainers.
You mean like Dr. Stan Coren or dr. ian dunbar?
Did a Behaviorist develop the PINCH HARNESS, tara?
> I was looking into becoming a Behaviorist,
That so? Perhaps you shoulda took professor SCRUFF SHAKE
dermer's MASTER'S DEGREE program, eh tarag?
--Marshall
BWAHAHAHHAHAAAA!!!!!
P.S. Contacting Dr. P:
personal advice on problems related to dog
training and behavior.
In order for me to give such advice we would
have to "talk" about the problem at length.
That is, I would need detailed information about
the dog, it's environment and routine, the problem,
and the situation in which the problem occurs.
Thus, this type of consultation takes time which
I cannot afford to give away for free.
If you wish such advice, please see the information
I have provided about my K9 Behavioral Consulting
practice. Another alternative to obtaining personal
advice is to participate in e-mail, chat room, &
newsgroup discussions.
P.P.S. BWEEEEEEEAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAAA!!!
From: der...@alpha1.csd.uwm.edu (Marshall Dermer)
Date: 1999/12/21
Subject: Re: Doc Dermer's offer
In article <tfR74.1$W64....@typhoon3.tampabay.rr.com> "Jerry Howe"
<j...@cfl.rr.com> writes:
> Lemme aks you sumthin, doc? When you punish your dog,
> do you find that he masturbates more frequently after
> such instances? (referring to your post about your dog
> using a pillow to get himself off)
First, I punish behavior, not dogs.
Second, I rarely issue corrections.
Third, as time goes on my dog uses the pillow less frequently.
I would say he uses it about once a month. Finally, I'm not
really concerned about my dog's masturbating; I don't find
such dog behavior offensive. Eating dog poop, for me, is
another story. And the rate of that behavior has also
diminished with time. :-)
--Marshall
YOU'RE FRAUDS, drs p. and dermer!
Either DEFEND your LIES, ABUSE And
Degrees or get the heel HOWETA THIS
BUSINESS.
From: "George von Hilsheimer, Ph.D." <drv...@mindspring.com>
To: "Jerry Howe" <theamazingpuppywiz...@mail.com>
Subject: Alleged Professors of Animal Behavior
Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 12:50:51 -0400
Dear Jerry, I paged through some of the "dog business"
and was astonished at the low quality of opinions arising
from professors of behavior analysis.
I had the very great privilege of meeting Sam Corson
(Pavlov's last Ph.D. student) and his dogs at Ohio
University. I even got to spend a night at Sam's house.
There is no question but that you are a spiritual brother
to Corson and to Pavlov, both of whom knew that the dog's
great capacity for love was the key to shaping doggie behavior.
Paradoxical reward and paradoxical fixing of attention are
both well documented Pavlovian techniques. Even so humorless
a chap as B.F. Skinner taught students like the Breland's whose
"The Misbehavior of Organisms" demonstrate the utility of your
methods and their deep roots in scientific (as opposed to
commercial) psychology.
George von Hilsheimer, Ph.D., F.R.S.H.
you may find my resume in Who's Who in
Science and Technology
--------------------
--Marshall Dermer
> but I couldn't justify the extra years of schooling,
BWEEEEAAAAAAHAHHAAAAA!!!
> so I stuck with Dog Trainer.
Oh goody! Let's talk abHOWET your LEAVE IT COMMAND?
> Where did you go for your Behavioral Degree?
Let's you answer HOWE do you POISON PROOF a dog, tarag?
>> if your trainer is recommending a prong collar I would
>> very strongly suggest you find another class to attend
>> where these things are not used or allowed.
>
> This is bizarre.
INDEEDY. HOWE COME you and your pathetic
miserable stinkin lyin animal abusin mental case
pals CAN'T TRAIN THEIR OWN DOGS not to
steal garbage or food from counters or eatin kat
shit or rollin in or eatin poop?
Your LEAVE IT COMMAND should work on all that, eh tarag?
> You have no idea what problems this guy has been having with his dog.
INDEEDY. He's been FOLLOWIN YOUR ADVICE.
NHOWE he's TRYIN to get the dog TRAINED enough SO HE
CAN GET RID OF IT otherWIZE he won't ever be able to have
his kat come inside his HOWES on accHOWENT of you stinkin
ignorameHOWESES can't tell him HOWE to train his dog not
to try an MURDER his kat <{}: ~ ( >
> You have no idea how much actual work he is willing
> to (or in a position to) put into this dog.
paul came here to learn HOWE to HURT and INTIMIDATE his dog.
> You have no idea what factors went into that decision.
SHORE he does tara.green2. It's ALL in The Sincerely Incredibly
Freakin Insanely Simply Amazing Grand Puppy, Child, Pussy,
Birdy And Horsey Wizard's Human And Animal Behavior Forensic
Sciences Research Laboratory RIGHT HERE <{) : ~ ) >
> And yet you feel comfortable making a categorical statement like that?
You mean abHOWET HURTIN DOGS, tarag?
> Wow.
You mean WHOWE, tarag aka tara.green2 <{) : ~ ) >
You can look up YOUR OWN POSTED CASE HISTORY to boot!
>> The headcollar is a very useful piece of equipment
>> and if properly used will stop your dog pulling,
That's correct.
HOWEver, the head halter devices have been bastardized
from their original design and intent and made into pain
fear force and intimidation devices.
>> your first consideration is get the right size
>> they come is sizes 0 to 5.
>
> They also scare the crap out of plenty of dogs.
ONLY IF you FOLLOW THE INSTRUCTIONS for the G.L. brand.
> Which is why I stopped using them regularly
You mean you sometimes do need to HURT the dog.
> shortly after I stopped using the prong.
That so?
> All thing being equal,
You''ve been WEANING yourself of HURTIN DOGS?
> I actually found that the DOGS usually took to the prong
> a lot more easily than they took to the head collar.
On accHOWENT of it makes the dog think his momma is leadin him.
> When judging the cruelty/kindness factor of a method
You mean like your LEAVE IT COMMAND, tarag aka tara.green2?
BWEEEEEEEEAAAAHAHAHAHAAAAA!!!
DOGS DIE from not havin a EFFECTIVE leave it command, don't they, tara.
> or piece of equipment,
Like that shock collar you might borrow NHOWE an again?
> I like to make sure I'm using the actual DOG as the barometer....
Dogs DO NOT SHOWE PAIN, remember tarag?
> not what *I* would prefer.
What you'd PREFER is a bottle of Ripple to swill
DHOWEN a couple hundred mg's of codine <{}: ~ ( >
> They are often different answers.
That's CONSISTENCY for ya, eh tara.green2?
> I saw far too many dogs panic when the owners would
> (understandably) rush the adjustment process.
"RUSH"? "PROCESS"? "ADJUSTMENT"?
What the heel are you talkin abHOWET tara.green2?
If you know HOWE to train your LEAVE IT COMMAND
the dog would STOP OBJECTING to the head device and
would DO ANYTHING YOU ASKED, bein a PROFESSIONAL
TRAINER, wouldn't you AGREE, tarag?
BWEEEEEEEEAHAHAHHAAAA!!!
It's so nice to have a genuine ignorameHOWES like
yourself to embarrass herself in front of a new poster
who likeWIZE UNDERSTANDS BEHAVIOR<{) : ~ ) >
> And, I'm sorry, but any piece of equipment that takes up
> to two weeks to get a dog to accept is NOT intrinsically kinder.
Well then tara.green2, BLAME YOUR LEAVE IT COMMAND.
It takes MINUTES to CONdition a dog to a head halter.
Look up Monty Roberts method of trainin a horse to a halter.
He don't jerk an choke and intimidate him, he puts it on and
CALMS the critter JUST LIKE HOWE you're suppHOWESED
to do with ANY fear behavior.
BUT YOU DON'T LIKE THAT. You think BEIN NICE
when a critter is AFRAID will reinforce the FEAR.
You gotta instill TRUST FIRST, not choke shock or
force the halter or whatever and BLAME THE DOG
for OBJECTING to it.
>> When you first put the head collar on the dog will
>> probably not like it so just put on for a few minutes
>> and give him some tasty treats
THAT will reinforce the behavior. All you gotta
dog is non physically variably / alternately distract
and instantly give prolonged non physical praise.
>> and do this each time you put in on him so that
>> he sees the head collar with nice things.
And then the dog becomes ANGRY when IT don't get his cookie.
> You haven't worked with that many dogs with spacial issues
"Spacial issues"?
That's a new WON.
What EXXXACTLY are SPACIAL ISSUES???
IT'S MEANINGLESS BULLSHIT.
AIN'T IT tarag.
> if you think that's how it always works.
You mean, SPACIALLY speakin, tara.green2?
> There are plenty of dogs that need slow desensitization for a week or more
That's a load of shit. ANY behavior that's CONSISTENT REPEATABLE
or PREDICTABLE is EZ to EXXXTINGUISH MODIFY CUE or REDIRECT NEARLY
INSTANTLY if we simply DO EVERYTHING
EXXXACTLY PRECISELY OPPOSITE of HOWE you done it, tara.
You ever gonna SHARE your LEAVE IT COMMAND, tarag?
Perhaps George will ask?
What'll you do then, tarag?
Last time you DISAPPEARED for two years.
BWEEEEEEEEEAAAHAHAHHHAAAAA!!!!
> before they're comfortable enough to have pressure applied to their snouts.
YOU AIN'T SUPPHOWESED TO APPLY PRESSURE.
>> When you start to walk him with it on, have him on
>> your left side and hold the lead in your right hand,
THAT'S to INSURE SLACK so the dog DON'T FIGHT the halter.
>> when he starts to pull, gently pull his head round towards you,
AND INSTANTLY PRAISE AND RELEASE the tension.
>> this will bring his whole body round which stops him pulling,
Right. But it AIN'T GONNA WORK if you HAVE TENSION on it.
>> practice with this and he will soon stop pulling.
Of curse, usin THE SAME PRINCIPLE you can train ANY
dog not to pull usin NO FORCE so it don't matter if you're
using a flat collar or harness on accHOWENT of it AIN'T
INTENDED to FORCE the dog <{) : ~ ) >
Same for the tightness or slack which the head or neck collar is fitted
to.
The G.L. MANUFACTURER'S INSTRUCTIONS sez to put
it on TIGHT, tight enough to TRIGGER the opposition reflex.
The INSTRUCTIONS recommend you have a trained professional
SHOWE you HOWE to fit and introduce the dog to it.
The FACTORY TRAINED PROFESSIONALS quickly throw the
dog assoverbucket and the dog don't complain no dogdameneD more.
> Or he could use a sensation/easy walk type harness
Ahhh, the CHOKE HARNESS.
THAT'S HOWE COME you don't use your PRONGED
SPIKED PINCH CHOKE COLLAR, eh tarag???
BWEEEEEEEEEAAHAHAHAHAAAA!!!
> so as not to freak out his dog by putting scary things on his nose.
If the dog TRUSTED you it wouldn't SCARE HIM.
> Or he could do what he's doing
What he's DOIN AIN'T WORKIN.
> since there's a trainer (who is apparently pretty
> good and has been posting here for *years*,
Yeah, she's as good as yourself, tara.
> with real live students who have also posted here)
INDEEDY. janet's STUDENT nessa's dogs SHIT
and PISSED in her HOWES for THREE YEARS
till they TURNED ON HER.
REMEMBER NHOWE, tarag?
> who has actually laid hands on this dog
INDEEDY. She MURDERED that little DEAD DOG
in "interested in hearing" REMEMBER tara green?
> and who has observed the interactions and behaviors first hand.
janet is a lyin dog murderin mental case like yourself, tara.
> While there are plenty of tools I would probably
> never see the need to use on a dog,
That so, tarag? CITES PLEASE?
CITE WON, tarag.
> the call to ban certain those things
You mean TOOLS for HURTIN dogs to train them, tarag?
> just to mollify those who don't understand them
You mean, those who don't understand TRAININ or TORTURE, tarag?
> is beyond me.
Well then perhaps when you figger it HOWET you can
advise the president what HUMAN DIGNITY means?
> Tara
YOUR LEAVE IT COMMAND, tara?
Human_And_Animal_Behavior_Foren...@hotmail.com
pathetic miserable stinkin lyin dog abusing drunken
drug crazed chronic long term incurable mental case,
"TaraG" <tarag...@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:Rg%Og.1202$_k1.220@trndny01...
>
> "Paul E. Schoen" <pst...@smart.net> wrote in message
> news:450c5b3d$0$21531$ecde...@news.coretel.net...
>>
>> I appreciate all of your comments on alternate equipment
>> and methods for my reluctant initiation into the world of
>> dog training.
We ain't talked abHOWET shock collar trainin. Perhaps
THAT'S on accHOWENTA paulie don't wanna spend
four hundred bucks to make his dog like his kat <{): ~ ( >
PERHAPS he'll GET LUCKY and be able to HURT
and INTIMIDATE his dog enough by the old fashioned
method of jerkin an chokin IT <{) : ~ ) >
>> I can see that there are some very strong opposing viewpoints,
Naaaah?
>> and all probably have some validity.
That so?
>> I would like to get good results fairly quickly without
>> investing too much time and effort, partly because I am
>> overwhelmed with other issues at this time, and also
>> because I hope to be able to give Muttley to a new owner
>> who can invest the needed time and (tough) love required.
Yeah. JUST LIKE HOWE his "trainer" COULDN'T DO with
her own "rescue" dog Rudy. BWEEEEAAAHAHAHAHAA!!!
> Which is why it is actually *very* likely that the prong
> collar *is* the right piece of equipment for you.
You mean on accHOWENT of janet is a EXXXPERT?
Perhaps she'll loan him her shock collar?
"J1Boss" <j1b...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040324071828...@mb-m18.aol.com...
> He was next to me and I could see his neck
> muscles pulsing. He didn't even blink an eye.
> Janet Boss
>
"sionnach" <rhyfe...@msn.com> wrote in message
news:c3qi15$2biuoh$1...@ID-45033.news.uni-berlin.de...
> "J1Boss" <j1b...@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:20040323173916...@mb-m17.aol.com...
> > > I can't imagine needing anything higher
> > > than a 5 with it, even with an insensitive
> > > dog like a Lab.
An INSENSITIVE DOG???
> > I can't remember what model of Innotek I have, but
> > I had a pointer ignore a neck-muscle-pulsing 9.
----------------------
> The head harnesses, sensation/easy walk styles etc
> all require more effort put into practice
That's SHEER IDIOCY. All you gotta do is EVERYTHING
EXXXACTLY PRECISELY OPPOSITE of HOWE you do it.
> than I think you're able to do right now.
You mean on accHOWENT of paul is a simpleton ignorameHOWES.
>> It becomes increasingly hard for me to consider giving
>> him to someone else, as I continue to bond with him
>> and see his progress and experience his affection for me.
BWEEEEAAAHAHHAHAAAAAA!!!
That's SUBMISSIVENESS, not affection.
> That IS often the most difficult part.
INDEED?
NOT IT YOU DON'T HURT and INTIMDIATE the dog, tara.
>> Unfortunately I was away for a few days and did not have
>> time to fully evaluate the smaller prong collar. It may also
>> not be good to try the collars too soon after he returns to me.
On accHOWENT of the dog MIGHT NO LIKE HIM for it?
>> He may need a day to readjust.
To WHAAAT?
> Are you saying that you don't want to use the prong until he adjusts?
That's IDIOCY ain't it, tarag.
OtherWIZE the PRONG woulda worked for janet's PARTNER:
> > cobbled them together,
"Neatly," and "Smartly."
> > and a fake signature.
"sinofabitch" instead of sionnach.
That so?
> > is downright meaningless.
Here's yours:
See?
"Warning: Sometimes The Corrections Will Seem
Quite Harsh And Cause You To Cringe. This Is
A Normal Reaction The First Few Times It Happens,
But You'll Get Over It." mike duforth,
author: "CourteHOWES Canine."
"I have heard advice stating that you should pre-load
your dog for Bitter Apple for it to work as efficiently
as possible. What does this mean?
When you bring home the Bitter Apple for the first time,
spray one squirt directly into the dog's mouth and walk
away. The dog won't be too thrilled with this but just
ignore him and continue your normal behavior."
--Mike Dufort
author of the zero selling book
"CourteHOWES Canines"
> Or you don't want to use the head halter until then?
That's IDOCY too, tara g on accHOWENT of the SIMPLETON
IGNORAMEHOWE AIN'T BRIGHT ENOUGH to learn HOWE
to use the head halter. REMEMBER tarag?
> Not that it matters.
Of curse not, on accHOWENT of YOU DON'T USE PRONGED
SPIKED PINCH CHOKE COLLARS nodoGdameneDMOORE, eh?
BWEEEAAHAHAHAHAAAAA!!!
> I'd be using it *right* away to establish good behavior immediately.
DESPITE that YOU DON'T USE THEM nodoGdameneDMOORE?
>> For my adoption poster with pictures of Muttley, please see:
>>
>> www.smart.net/~pstech/Muttley3.doc.
>
> It started downloading something onto my computer,
Yeah. It's called a PICTURE, tara.
> so I stopped that
Wouldn't you LIKE to SEE the dog you're tellin paulie to HURT?
> (I don't DL from things I'm not personally familiar with).
paulie has been FOLLOWIN YOUR ADVICE for six months, tara.
> I bet he looks good in it, though :-)
That so? You mean, in his new pronged spiked pinch choke collar, tara?
> Tara
HOWEDY tarag aka tara.green2 you miserable stinkin
lyin dog abusing multi dimensional mentally ill punk
thug coward,
TaraG wrote:
> "TaraG" <tarag...@verizon.net> wrote in message
> news:azJlg.3974$V55.2559@trndny01...
> >
> > <star...@aol.com> wrote in message
> > news:1150771498.6...@r2g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>
> >> HI,
> >> I do not believe he had no problem with someone using prong collars.
Of curse not.
> > Well, you're pretty gullible then.
WHAT'S THE PROBLEM for YOUR PREFERENCE of collar, tara.green2?
> > I hate to be that blunt, but its true.
You wouldn't know the truth unless it was in a bottle.
YOUR PREFERENCE is the PRONGE on accHOWENT Of you ain't
intelligent enough to know HOWE to use a SHOCK collar.
> >> Can you show me proof of this?
>
> > Here are some posts outlining canis' viewpoints.
Canis55 AIN'T HERE, tara.green2. HOWEver, YOU ARE.
Let's talk abHOWET your "LEAVE IT" command, tara g
aka tara.green2 you miserable stinkin lyin dog abusing
chronic long term incurable multi dimentional mental
case.
> Forgot to add the one about prong collar use (keep in mind he
>
> From: canis55 - view profile
> Date: Mon, May 15 2000 3:00 am
> Email: canis55 <cani...@my-deja.com>>
>
> Taking a look at the thread *Pathetic*, I'm reminded of
> this request made weeks ago to the participants of this ng.
>
> The original post was answered only by a criticism and
> awkward tap dance from CTM, a snide remark from SB, and
> a stupid come back from JH.
> I'm posting it again in the belief that several of you
> may have missed it the first time around.
> **************
That's kindly enough of Canis55. HOWEver, he KNOWS The
Sincerely Incredibly Freakin Insanely Simply Amazing
Grand Puppy, Child, Pussy, Birdy And Horsey Wizard SEZ
just puttin a PRONGED SPIKED PINCH CHOKE COLLAR
ON the dog is enough to INCREASE anXXXIHOWESNESS
to dangerHOWES levels <{): ~ ( >
> Here we go again:
>
> The debate of the week seems to be are prongs and
> slips painful, humane, safe, or even effective.
They CANNOT BE EFFECTIVE if they INCREASE anXXXIHOWESNESS
or by physically or emotionally FORCING CON-TROLL <{): ~ ( >
> There's been a lot of statements to the effect that they
> are safe, do not cause pain or injury, and are effective
> when used properly.
BY DOG ABUSING MENTAL CASES who CANNOT TRAIN a dog
witHOWET HURTIN INTIMIDATING BRIBING CRATING and
MUTILATING them <{): ~ ( >
> The "when used properly" keeps bugging me because nobody's
> taken the pretty logical step of outlining what they mean
> by that.
Here's a HINT. The SHOCK COLLAR to BE EFFECTIVE MUST
BE CONDITIONED for at least WON WEEK pryor to ever
BURNING the dog and MUST remain on the dog for WON
WEEK after BURNING IT otherWIZE the dog will become
"COLLAR WIZE" and will work ONLY when wearing the
SHOCK COLLAR.
The SAME MUST APPLY to the PRONGED SPIKED PINCH
CHOKE collar for obviHOWES reasons <{): ~ ( >
> How many sentences does it take to spell out what
> you people mean when you say that? Why the oversight?
Whaaaat "OVERSIGHT"??? These simpletons ONLY KNOW PAIN
FEAR FORCE INTIMIDATION AVOIDANCE and DEATH <{): ~ ( >
> I'll get the ball rolling.
EXXXCELLENT.
> Slip or choke collars have, I believe, the same physical
> sensation on a dog that striking the side of your hand
> (kinda like a karate chop) on your throat has on you.
That'll ENCOURAGE HOWER DOG LOVERS like tara g aka tara.green2
to LOVE using them, pupperly, of curse <{): ~ ( >
> Try it lightly on yourself. Not a pleasent feeling is it?
These MENTAL MIDGETS and SEXUAL SADISTS ENJOY PAIN.
> Just a tap goes all the way into your stomach.
INDEEDY.
> I cannot use them in a way that does
> not inhibit or intimidate the dog.
Ahhhh, but YOU COULD IF you knew HOWE to TRAIN
a dog NOT TO PULL against the lead JUST LIKE
HOWE The Sincerely Incredibly Freakin Insanely
Simply Amazing Grand Puppy, Child, Pussy, Birdy
And Horsey Wizard's 100% CONSISTENTLY NEARLY
INSTANTLY SUCCESSFUL FREE WWW Wits' End Dog
Training Method Manual Students learn HOWE to
pupperly handle and train their dogs <{): ~ ) >
> I consider them physically painful, emotionally
> disastrous and impossible to use constructively.
Yet Canis55 in his TWISTED MIND believes the PRONG
is different on accHOWENT of it distributes the PAIN
evenly arHOWEND the dog's neck <{): ~ ( >
Perhaps he's just bein self deceptive to assuage
his own guilty CON-SCIENCE <{): ~ ) >
> The prong or pinch collar when used in low gear
Right there we've LOST most of these professional SIMPLETONS.
> inhibits the dog, and is therefore emotionally
> painful and an improper use of this collar.
JUST LIKE THE SHOCK COLLAR.
> The prong or pinch collar when used in high gear inhibits
> the dog and is both physically and emotionally painful and
> an improper use of the collar.
So, does THAT mean Canis55 has CHANGED HIS BELIEFS?
> The prong or pinch collar when counter-conditioned in high gear,
Well, there ya go, dog lovers. NHOWE we're talkin HOWETA their league.
> stimulates and excites the dog. It is physically painful-
> -even though the dog's brain has been twisted to "enjoy"
> that pain. It is an emotional explosion which I do not
> claim to fully understand,
It's a lot like the sexual Sadist enjoying pain. These
dog lovers CANNOT differentiate between pain fear force
and LOVE and parental doting and care <{): ~ ) >
> although I seem to feel entitled to play around with.
UNTIL IT BACKFIRED ON HIM and he DIDN'T C-HOWENTER CONdition the dog
pupperly and relied on it when the dog was AGGRESSIVE.
> It can do tremendous emotional damage.
But THAT won't deter tara g aka tara.green2, will it, tara.
> Whether or not it's proper, I don't know.
The Sincerely Incredibly Freakin Insanely Simply Amazing
Grand Puppy, Child, Pussy, Birdy And Horsey Wizard got a
EZ formulae for THAT: HE ALWAYS SEZ "If you gotta
*THINK* if sumpthin is RIGHT or WRONG, then YOU
AIN'T GOTTA THINK abHOWET IT, it's DEAD WRONG
and therefore shouldn't be used on ANY critter" <{):~ ) >
> But this is the only way I'll use these things.
TILL HE LEARNED THE HARD WAS as The Sincerely
Incredibly Freakin Insanely Simply Amazing Grand Puppy,
Child, Pussy,Birdy And Horsey Wizard TOLD HIM SO.
BWEEEEAAAHAHAHAHAAAA!!!
> Collar should always have pronged portion contacting
> neck top and sides. Leash is fitted at throat.
THAT'S IRRELEVENT. FurtherMOORE, it's ALMOST IMPOSSIBLE
to fit and wear like that due to 2 laws PHYSICS: 1. GRAVITY
and 2. POSITIVE THIGMOTAXIS. IOW, if you FIT the PRONGED
SPIKED PINCH CHOKE COLLAR TIGHTLY enough to STAY ON
"upsideDHOWEN" you'll TRIGGER the OPPOSITION REFLEX aka
positive THUGmotaxis <{): ~ ) >
> All you need do is look at those prongs to know they
> have no business anywhere near a dog's throat.
RIGHT. ONLY A SADIST or EXXXTREME
IGNORAMEHOWES WOULD USE IT.
> I'm not interested in a debate on any of this.
RIGHT.
> What I am interested in is hearing everybody else who
> uses these things, or believes they are safe when used
> properly, to just briefly explain how to use them properly.
THAT'S HOWE COME The Sincerely Incredibly Freakin Insanely
Simply Amazing Grand Puppy, Child, Pussy, Birdy And Horsey
Wizard's REPLY was sumpthin like BWEEEEAAAAHAHAHAHAAAA!!!
> Thanks,
> c55
Here's WON you OVERLOOKED, tarag aka tara.green2, you
mentally ill lyin dog abusing punk thug coward active punk
thug coward mental case:
48 From: canis55
Date: Thurs, May 4 2000 12:00 am
Email: canis55 <cani...@my-deja.com>
In article <8eprss$jb...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
Theresa Willis <twillis aka psychoclHOWEN>wrote:
> In article <8epr3l$ia...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> canis55 <cani...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> > In article <8epgnn$68...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
> > Theresa Willis <twil...@sound.net> wrote:
I've walked around this post 3 times now, Terri. There's
no sarcasm. No mocking stupidity. No nastiness. It looks
real sincere and inviting, I must say.
All right I'm going in!
> > > he gets happy when he sees me bring out the collar
> > and also:
> > >You are aware, I hope, that looks can be deceiving, right?
> Oh, absolutely. But I think it is more likely
> that he actually is happy then that he's faking.
Dog's don't lie that way. I'm suggesting you may be
misinterpreting the way his energy manifests itself.
> I suppose there are otherways to intepret him thrusting
> his head in the collar when I hold it up, all the while
> wagging his tail like a madman.
Now wait. That IS sarcastic. Well you are what you are.
Nobody's saying that he doesn't have certain positive and
highly emotional associations with whatever you do right
before you take a romp. So yeah, he'd likely thrust his
head into the collar.
The animated tail wagging is just, to me, an indication
that there's more energy flowing through that dog than
can be accommodated by the present behavior or situation.
It's not happiness.
It's conflict and nervousness.
Before you get all bent out of shape, just the anticipation
of exiting the den creates this kind of energy in a dog, so
it's not necessarily about prong collars.
Although I suspect some of it is. I suspect this because I
use prong collars to intentionally excite dogs. This is not
to say that Harlan is not happy at these moments, but I think
there's more going on than you're understanding.
> However, the best evidence I have is that Harlan enjoys class,
> enjoys training, and doesn't object to his training collar.
> Could I be misinterpreting his actions? Sure. However, the
> progress we've made, and the comments from my instructors
> indicate to me that I'm not misinterpreting Harlan's body
> language, which fairly hollers "Happy, happy, joy, joy".
Your instructors, like most trainers, attempt to use collar
corrections to inhibit or stifle the natural impulses and
drives of a dog.
They will see fear, aggression, or excitement in the dogs.
Fear in these circumstances is often called calmness (don't
know your trainers, so can't say for sure, but this is what
kilcommon calls calmness).
Aggression they call aggression, though sometimes talking-back
or challenging also. Excitement and it's component when contained
or inhibited (nervousness) is often called happiness.
Once again, I'm not saying there is not some part of this
nervous energy we might rightly call happiness (think giddy
in a human), but to call it happiness is--I think too simplistic
for somebody who really understands what emotional impact
the collar corrections are having on the dog.
The corrections contain, if they are "effective" (You know what?
I swear I explained this all to you a year ago. Yeah, that was you.
Well, I can't remember what your response was, but likely it'll
be no different this time around.) whatever emotional energy is
producing a particular behavior the dog is performing at the moment.
So the trainer believes the job's getting done, "See, he stopped
bouncing around." But because the emotion's been contained it will
be released at the next possible opportunity intensified.
The dog is not what the trainers are seeing.
The trainer's are seeing the absence of a behavior.
(See the continuing struggle between Ron and Annie.)
So yes, Harlan will appear to become more and more happy as
the evening progresses. Which is not to say that Harlan is
not truly enjoying being with you, and not positively charged
by a lot of the activities and the other dogs around him.
BTW, the other students correcting their dogs will excite Harlan also.
> Dog's show joy readily; it's one of the reasons I like
> them so much. So, I'll trust with the evidence of Harlan's
> behavior over Marilyn's "I don't like the way that picture
> looks" any day.
Marilyn is not wrong. The collar is designed to administer
a shock when yanked, and to apply the pressure of teeth when
pulled. They are illegal in her country so she can only go by
what she sees in a picture, but the picture does not lie.
She is looking at a necklace lined with long blunted teeth.
Terri, it can produce anything from mild discomfort to
intense sharp pain. And a standard collar correction
produces anything from a very mild psychological trauma
to an overwhelming stressor.
> That's really been one of my main points all along:
> People can philosophize about training methods all
> they want, but if they are smart, they'll listen to
> what the dog is telling them about training.
Most people (trainer's too) are somewhat blind to what their
dog's are experiencing. That goes for both directions, Terri.
Because there are lots of people who think crating a dog or
puppy is cruel, but think it's perfectly fine to scare or
hurt the dog in response to all the satisfying stuff it did
instead of sleeping in a nice cozy den.
And there are people who have no problem squirting diluted
vinegar in their dog's face and yelling "NO!", but think
I'm a monster for shocking a dog with a prong while laughing
and praising.
> Only the dog can decide if a training method is effective
> for him. And Harlan is telling me that we are headed in
> the right direction, training-wise, and that the prong
> collar is no big deal. I trust him.
This may surprise you, but I think the whole thing is going
fine. And while I see a lot of unhealthy anxiety in Harlan,
it's not unhealthy to the point where it will ever manifest
itself in even a minor behavior problem.
That's just my opinion, and I know that most alternative
trainers on some level want to see things collapse so as
to validate their own methodology. The truth is that there's
usually enough good stuff (I'm not talking about the obviously
disturbed black boot demon dog trainers.) to carry things
through with enough dogs so that it pretty much works itself
out in the end.
Also, you are not the average dog owner. So beyond even who
your trainers are and what they're telling you, you've taken
it upon yourself to channel a lot of Harlan's anxious energy
into positive outlets.
You may even be doing this directly after a correction. I
don't know how sophisticated your trainers are. I'm pretty
certain that you didn't counter-condition him to the prong-
-so as to immediately excite rather than inhibit him--before
you ever tripped it, but I think in the end you're going to
wind up with one fantastic dog.
You're over in the Ron and Annie thread trying to convince
Ron to GOD FORBID actually do something to increase the dog's
social attraction to him and match the intensity of those
constant collar corrections so that she might be inclined
to walk next to him even though you wouldn't necessarily
explain it that way. On an instinctive level, you know what
you're doing. And on an instinctive level, you've got to
know that collar is a torture device.
Well there you have it. I gave you a lot of text to play
some games with. Go a head Terri. I knew you were a snake
when I picked you up.
--
------------------
> During the same period of time, he was posting under another
> name saying that prongs were wrong. I always surmised that
> this was his playground to get out his aggression (and I view
> that as Jerry's main priority here as well), and him jumping
> around was also his way of keeping Jerry from getting angry
> with him.
You're a PATHETIC MENTAL CASE, tara.green2. IN FACT, if
Canis55 USES his PRONG it bothers The Sincerely Incredibly
Freakin Insanely Simply Amazing Grand Puppy, Child, Pussy,
Birdy And Horsey Wizard ***LESS*** than him simply sayin
terry twillis aka PSYCHOCLHOWEN AIN'T HURTIN her dog an
that her "trainers" probably know what they're doin.
Her dog Harlan is HYPERACTIVE and HOWEta CON-TROLL.
Like yourself tara.green2, he's a VICTIM OF ABUSE.
Canis55 also posted as DEAMONCHILD666, Frank and
Thurston HOWEll <{): ~ ) >
50From: frank
Date: Tues, Oct 23 2001 10:29 am
Email: thurstonhow...@excite.com (frank)
Charlie Wilkes <charlie_wil...@easynews.com> wrote in message
<news:0bk9ttgn5mh12f8k3...@4ax.com>...
> As for Jerry, he's right on. Most of the people in this newsgroup --
> including you -- are ball-busting bitches who make the Taliban look
> like liberals when it comes to social tolerance.
Ain't that the truth. Go have a look at the responses to Paul B's
"personalizing Dog Behaviors". We're supposed to believe jerry's an
anomaly. What a bunch of abusive, rude, hostile, insecure orangutans.
Dog trainers, sheesh. They're walking around in their own filth and
complaining about the stench.
> Jerry's method is highly effective, as demonstrated by the results I
> have gotten. You can see new pictures of my wonderful Wits End Dog
> at:
> http://www.geocities.com/viscouspuppy/dogplay.html
> Charlie
rom: frank
Date: Mon, Oct 22 2001 11:21 pm
Email: thurstonhow...@excite.com (frank)
"Karen J. Cravens" <silver+...@phoenyx.net> wrote in message
<news:Xns9142607B...@209.134.108.33>...
> thurstonhow...@excite.com (frank) wrote in
> news:6fa5bd77.01102...@posting.google.com:
> > Jerry said "You're a lying dog abusing Thug because
> > I've proven you to be a liar and you defend hurting
> > dogs. You're finished. Bye! j;~}"
> > Case dismissed. Welcome to usenet.
> And you believe that I'm a liar because Jerry says so?
> Oooookay.
You're missing my point. Point is something like that is
good enough in a place like this. So yeah, great, you're
a liar cause jerry says he's proven it, if that's all you
can get from that.
Do you even remember what you wanted me to believe prompted
your question? What a circus this place is, really.
The only reason Jerry's able to piss you all off into this hateful
frenzy, aside from the fact that he's got his own personal 3gigs of
actual stupid quotes from you all, is that you guys take yourselves
way to seriously in here, and in some instances some of you are just
spammers who have a financial interest in not having somebody remind
us all of what incompetent lying idiots you are.
You don't look to me as though you're a spammer or a crooked idiot dog
trainer, karen. so what the hell do you care what jerry says about
you? Just get a life or a DVD player and be happy in the knowledge
that jerry has neither.
---------------
Subject: Personalizing Dog Behaviors
37 From: frank
Date: Mon, Oct 22 2001 10:13 am
Email: thurstonhow...@excite.com (frank)
Hi Paul,
you're not allowed to post anything obvious in here. while it may be
of benifit to the average dog owner ng reader, it gives all the no
nothing idiot dog trainers in here the opportunity (which they can't
resist) to post a bunch of "no duh" responses.
you're also not allowed to post anything which invalidates or
discredits their own cave-man view of dog behavior. So don't try that
either.
Either way, they'll jump all over you. These are dog trainers
remember. Hard pressed to find a group of more insecure control freak
idiots.
"Paul B" <NOSPAMpand...@zfree.co.nz> wrote in message
<news:3bd0...@clear.net.nz>...
>
> Do you you compare your dogs reactions and behaviours
> to how you think they ought to react or behave?
>
> If so then you are dictating human values on a canine breed.
> I have observed my dogs ( and other dogs) quite happily munching
> on a cat poop or even eating their own vomit. To us that is
> soooooo gross it defies belief but to a dog it's the most natural
> thing in the world.
>
> Basically we are forcing our ettiquite onto the the K9 breed.
> I'm curious as to what the real problem is, I have no problem
> teaching my dogs not to eat cat shit or vomit but really whats
> the issue?
>
> If they are really happy to munch away on such taboo stuff so what?
> Are we teaching them to be civilisised or merly to be ashamed of
> something they see as natural but doesn't bode well with our culture.
>
> My point is that dogs see things differently than we do, they do
> things we consider inappropriate but to them it's not only appropriate
> but bloody good fun to be repeated over and over.
>
> What we consider to be digusting and obscene a dog sees as ordinary
> and fun. Telling them otherwise confuses them and to try to convince
> them that an inappropriate behaviour (to us) is "BAD" must install
> an element of confusion in their doggy brain as they really think it's
> good.
>
> The logical conclusion is that they see us as wrong
> or misguided because how can something so good be bad?
>
> Thats why I tend to side with Jerry's idea about distracting
> them from behaviours we consider inappropriate. We don't teach
> right from wrong but teach persuasion to what we prefer, dogs
> are very quick to pick up on this.
>
> The advantage is that the dog chooses not to do this but that
> instead but via it's own choices. No intimidation no pain but
> a comprimising result.
>
> Win, win.
> Paul
From: Demon -
Date: Fri, Oct 26 2001 3:27 am
Email: "Demon" <d...@hotmail.com>
I just wish ppl would stop being offended and sooo defensive.
I'm not for one second suggesting inappropriate dog behaviour
should be ignored or tolerated but trying to point out that
these behaviours are nartural to a dog, even killing tweety
bird, so we set them up and distract them fromthose inappropriate
behaviours as they try to carry those behaviours out.
I have seen too many dogs wary of their owners because of been
reprimanded for inappropriate behaviours, when using distraction
and praise techniques would have quickly and efficiently and
without any conflict or demoralisation addressed the problem.
Paul
-----------
AND THAT, tara g aka tara.green2, brings
us to YOUR LEAVE IT COMMAND.
> You see (and I've said this before)
You've done NUTHIN but LIE and DEFEND your alleged
RIGHT to hurt intimidate mutilate and murder innocent
defenseless dumb critters <{): ~ ( >
> Jerry will leave someone alone (no matter WHAT their methods are)
THAT'S INSANE, tarag aka tara.green2.
> as long as they kiss his ass
The Sincerely Incredibly Freakin Insanely Simply Amazing
Grand Puppy, Child, Pussy, Birdy And Horsey Wizard's 100%
CONSISTENTLY NEARLY INSTANTLY SUCCESSFUL
FREE WWW Wits' End Dog Training Method Manual Forums
are FAMILY news group.
> and attack the same people that Jerry attacks.
That's ABSURD. The Sincerely Incredibly Freakin Insanely
Simply Amazing Grand Puppy, Child, Pussy, Birdy And Horsey
Wizard is an equal opportunity ATTACKER. Take diddler, for
EXXXAMPLE. Sometimes she's allHOWED to attack you and your
ignorameHOWES pals for a while and THEN The Sincerely Incredibly
Freakin Insanely Simply Amazing Grand Puppy, Child, Pussy, Birdy
And Horsey Wizard QUOTES HER OWN posted case history of HURTIN
INTIMIDATIN an MURDERIN innocent defenseless dumb critters <{): ~ ) >
> I was never a big fan of gangs,
Oh, THAT'S on accHOWENT of decent GANGS won't tolerate you.
> and since I wasn't going to join Jerry's,
You mean, Jerry's GANG of NON VIOLENT NON ABUESERS, tara?
> he decided to attack me as well.
No tara.green2. Canis55 PLEADED on your behalf so's you wouldn't
GO INSANE AGAIN, as you obviHOWESLY have done, nonetheless.
> He is truly a hyppocrite and a liar....
CITES PLEASE?
> and one is known by the company they keep.
JUST LIKE HOWE The Sincerely Incredibly Freakin Insanely
Simply Amazing Grand Puppy, Child, Pussy, Birdy And Horsey
Wizard's DADDY SEZ. Evidently you been readin HIS Posts.
> I used to tell canis this weekly....
You mean, that you couldn't tolerate Cansi55's abuse of dogs?
> and truth be told,
NOT THAT AGAIN, tarag aka tara.green2 <{}: ~ ( >
> I've lost world's of respect for him over the
> years for his support of Jerry's abuse.
You mean, for NOT HURTIN innocent defenseless dumb
critters like HOWE you PREFER, tara g aka tara.green2?
> Tara
Here's a few words from the DISRESPECTABLE Canis55:
Subject: HOWE to get killfiled in 3 easy steps
3 From: canis55 - view profile
Date: Fri, May 12 2000 12:00 am
Email: canis55 <cani...@my-deja.com>
Like your pieces are to long winded already.
Go back in that prong collar debate thread and find the ignorant
loose lipped poster, who said the prong makes it easier for their
weak old lady client to walk her large pulling dog so this means
they don't hurt.
Means the exact opposite, and proves that they DO hurt.
They hurt so good even a weakened geriatric can use them.
Find the piece Jerry and I'll write the argument.
Yours in fanaticism,
C55
From: canis55
Date: Tues, Jul 13 1999 3:00 am
Email: canis55 <cani...@my-deja.com>
In article <7mdjgh$ua...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
Alison Smiley <smi...@lclark.edu> wrote:
<snip idiocy>
Oh Alison,
I wrote you out a really long message, and then lost it in
some Netscape catastrophe. I can't get anywhere near the ng
on Netscape now.
I'm putting my faith in IE and Bill Gates. What follows will be,
I hope, a condensed version of what I tried to send with Netscape.
My posting history will confirm that I do not fully endorse
every word of the Wit's End. Nor do I fully endorse any other
books or essays on training or animal behavior.
I don't even fully endorse the book written by the guy I
trained under. As a matter of fact, anything and everything
I've written myself on this stuff is subject to revision. If
somebody wants to view that as a lack of conviction or a sign
of weakness, fine. That's exactly the way I view rigidity.
My endorsement of the Wit's End is based upon
A) It's free.
B) The author will respond to E-mails.
C) The author is hyper-sensitive to the emotional health of dogs.
Given those three things, I would say that if a pet owner
were going to ask me to recommend one and only one training
manual or book, which they intended to read and use to the
exclusion of all others, then they could do no better than
The Wit's End.
Damn, that was a lot shorter than the Netscape version.
--
From: canis55
Date: Thurs, Jun 24 1999 12:00 am
Email: canis55 <cani...@my-deja.com>
Groups: rec.pets.dogs.behavior
In article <37724814.E9D56...@bellsouth.net>,
> Bioso...@aol.com wrote to janet boss:
> What happened to you, howe the hell did you get into dog training?
> Your parents buy you a little dog training shop someplace to keep
> you out of trouble and off of their dole? That could be the only
> rational explanation as to why you consider yourself a dog trainer.
> mom and pop helped you find something you could play at, to relieve
> them of the responsibility for their idiot-child?
We covered this already, Jerry. Thanks for posing the question
though, cause I must admit I relish the opportunity to re-print
the following.
People still won't get that wolves are pack animals, with complex
social ties, simply because they hunt large prey. Why else would
wolves form packs when other wild canids, such as coyotes and foxes,
don't?
Foxes and coyotes only prey on smaller animals, so they don't need a
pack instinct. (This is why terriers seem so "stubborn", by the way.
Their hunting instinct has been narrowed down to focus only on small
prey, so they don't have the same need for group cooperation.).
Meanwhile, dog trainers will go on using harsh methods simply because
they have a deep-seated psychological need to hurt animals. Why? There
is a stage in human development (from age two to four) which we might
rightly call the dominance phase. During this stage, a child's favorite
word is "NO!" (also the favorite word of most dog trainers). The child
feels superior to, and more powerful than its parents. This is of
course
an illusion; but it's an important one if the child is to develop
confidence and self-esteem.
When a child is allowed to go through this period without its
sense of power and importance being constantly called into
question, while at the same time being taught and rewarded
for recognizing and accepting certain necessary limits and
boundaries, it develops more quickly (and more completely)
than if the parent is always forcing its authority.
What does this have to do with dog training? A lot actually.
I think most trainers--particularly those who insist on being the
"alpha dog"--are exhibiting a form of pathology; fully demonstrating,
for all to see, a wounded psyche; stuck in the terrible twos,
insisting
on being dominant to weaker creatures, putting a leash and collar on
their own little corner of the world where they can, at last, be
"alpha."
In other words, they were, in all probability, abused, dominated, or
overly criticized by their parents during their own dominance phase
and
are now taking it out on their client's dogs.
Of course these people think their methods are effective. Fear and
pain
have great power to change behavior. They've seen this with their own
eyes (and felt it on their own bottoms!) But as long as they have a
mindset that gets off on being "alpha," ("Look! I got the dog to obey!
I
feel powerful!), their ability to be objective about their results will
be compromised, because they're getting an emotional charge out of
being
in control. And any method which doesn't satisfy that emotional
need--no
matter how effective--will seem invalid, while any method that
does--even if it hurts the dog and creates negative side effects--will
feel right.
If it seems cruel of me to conjecture about the emotional lives of
these
trainers in this way, remember: I'm not the one telling people to
scare,
hit, or bully their helpless puppies into "obedience."
26 From: canis55
Date: Thurs, Jun 10 1999 12:00 am
Email: canis55 <cani...@my-deja.com>
Groups: rec.pets.dogs.behavior
In article <376a4a43.48479...@news1.i1.net>,
dog...@i1.net (Dogman) wrote:
> While sitting on the crapper and smoking a fine Arturo Fuentes cigar
> on Wed, 09 Jun 1999 23:30:00 GMT, I overheard fritzg...@earthlink.net
> The "proof" is *in* the testimonials, the trainer's credentials, and
> the RESULTS other trainers have achieved and others have gotten to
> witness while using them.
The proof is, and always will be, in the dog. The proof is not
satisfied
by whether your, or anyone else's emotional wounds are fed and
gratified
, by witnessing submissive behavior. It's not about the trainer. It's
not about the owner. It's not about the judges. It's about the beauty,
true and indomitable, of a dog's true nature.
And once again, you stumbling, inbred, paleopsychological
anomaly, it is about my library card:
His vision from the constantly passing bars,
has grown so weary that it cannot hold
anything else. It seems to him there are
a thousand bars; and behind the bars, no world.
As he paces in cramped circles, over and over,
the movement of his powerful soft strides
is like a ritual dance around a center
in which a mighty will stands paralyzed.
Only at times, the curtain of the pupils
lifts, quietly--. An image enters in,
rushes down through the tensed, arrested muscles,
plunges into the heart and is gone.
.......translated from the German by Stephen Mitchell
> Is any of this sinking in???????
> Dogman aka "Big Daddy"
SINKING IN? IT'S ABSOLUTELY PELLUCID. STOP HURTING
DOGS. THEY'RE NOT YOUR FATHER. YOU'RE NOT "BIG
DADDY"! YOU'RE A COWARD, A BULLY, AN INVERTED
FREAK, AND AN ABOMINATION IN THE EYES OF NATURE
From: the_master222
Date: Wed, May 19 1999
Look, drunken dogboy, you seriously need to seek therapy to
deal with the issues you have about the abuse you suffered
as a young child at the hands of your alcoholic father. The
sooner you do this, the sooner you'll stop inflicting that
same abuse on your client's dogs. Brutality is not training.
NATURE IS NEVER WRONG
Subject: Hey Jerry!
15 From: canis55
Date: Fri, Sep 17 1999 12:00 am
Email: canis55 <cani...@my-deja.com>
In article <7rsj3t$jj...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
iamthedog...@my-deja.com wrote:
> Hey Asspiring,
> When you grow up and have your own knowledge, instead
> of touting others lofty ideas, then you can come here and
> play. If you want something to read visit my web site and
> take a look at "How All Animals Learn" then come back and talk.
> Steve Boyer
> www.TheDogman.com
Steve,
The text you refer to is simply three pages of prose intended
to convince the reader that violence and intimidation is the
most effective and "natural" way to alter the behavior of
animals and humans who are acting in a way you find either
annoying or threatening.
The text fails to convince me, not because you are a poor writer,
but because your tenet (pain and intimidation are safe and effective
training tools when applied to domesticated dogs) is false. Mary
Wollstonecraft, E.B. White, Thomas Jefferson, or any number of gifted
essayists would find the task equally impossible.
You are forced to rely on specious arguments throughout the piece
because the whole writing project is predicated on a false statement.
This statement is made in your introductory remarks.
"It seems as though a lot of people have forgotten what a dog
is... A dog is an animal, the same as the squirrel or raccoon
you see around your home, and the same as the grizzly bear or
wolf you see at the zoo. The only difference between a dog and
other animals is that the dog has been domesticated."
I know you are not stupid. For some reason, other than stupidity, you
have chosen to argue that pain and intimidation are safe and effective
training tools when applied to domesticated dogs. This is not true and
even a cursory reading of your text argues against your thesis, even to
the point of seemingly intentional irony.
There are probably several differences between "a dog and other
animals". You certainly know this, Steve. Nobody here--not you, not me,
not Janet, not Frederick, not Dianne, not Amy, neither Cindy nor Cindi
could likely train a raccoon, a squirrel, a fox, a cow, a bear, a goat,
or a reindeer to do the same things we have trained dogs to do.
The most important difference --from a trainer's POV-- between a
dog and all these other animals is the dog's genetic predisposition
to cooperate. Nature has made it emotionally satisfying and rewarding
for dogs and wolves to hunt in a pack. There's no great conspiracy, as
your site repeatedly states, to hide this--or any other truth from the
general public. Saying that there is a conspiracy to hide the
information
you are revealing, does not make the information true, nor does it
compel
me to accept it as such.
An educated reader will recognize this as nothing more than a narrative
framework, and it will not help disguise the substance of the text as a
misrepresentation of facts.
My current workload prohibits me from going through your text line by
line, here in the ng, with a critical eye. I know you put some effort
into the piece I'm discussing, so honor would dictate that I put at
least as much time into a criticism of it. I can't, and I apologize for
that. I only wish to point out that because you believe so firmly in
your general thesis, you may not have put enough effort into thinking
your argument through. We all do it, especially if we're writing about
something that we ourselves consider obvious.
If Aspiring has the time, I'm pretty sure he/she could point out some
of
the errors I have alluded to. I think it's a mistake to refer people to
your site in the hopes of persuading them to either hire you as a
trainer, or employ your methods themselves. I don't think you realize
how your text actually reads.
I know you think I'm full of shit, both personally and professionally,
so perhaps one of the other dominance trainers will confirm some of
what
I've said here. I have visited many sites created by trainers here with
whom I'm in near total disagreement, but I can see how their sites
might
appeal to any number of dog owners. I can see how their arguments could
convince even a sophisticated reader. I cannot see this in yours. If
I'm
wrong, then I'm sorry to have fooled myself into believing that my own
reaction is somewhat universal. If not one dominance or traditional
trainer politely emails you to confirm my comments, then we'll know
that
it is my own POV as a trainer that prevents me from seeing the
effectiveness of your text. If that is the case I wish to apologize in
advance.
--
I trains'em as I sees'em.
"TaraG" <tarag...@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:9LJlg.3977$V55.1419@trndny01...
>
> "TaraG" <tarag...@verizon.net> wrote in message
> news:azJlg.3974$V55.2559@trndny01...
>>
>> <star...@aol.com> wrote in message
>> news:1150771498.6...@r2g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>>> HI,
>>> I do not believe he had no problem with someone using prong collars.
>>
>> Well, you're pretty gullible then. I hate to be that blunt, but its true.
>>
>>> Can you show me proof of this?
>>
>> Here are some posts outlining canis' viewpoints.
>
> Forgot to add the one about prong collar use (keep in mind he
>
> From: canis55 - view profile
> Date: Mon, May 15 2000 3:00 am
> Email: canis55 <cani...@my-deja.com>
>
> Taking a look at the thread *Pathetic*, I'm reminded of this request
> made weeks ago to the participants of this ng.
>
> The original post was answered only by a criticism and awkward tap dance
> from CTM, a snide remark from SB, and a stupid come back from JH.
>
> I'm posting it again in the belief that several of you may have missed
> it the first time around.
> **************
>
> Here we go again:
>
> The debate of the week seems to be are prongs and slips
> painful, humane, safe, or even effective.
>
> There's been a lot of statements to the effect that they are safe, do
> not cause pain or injury, and are effective when used properly.
>
> The "when used properly" keeps bugging me because nobody's
> taken the pretty logical step of outlining what they mean by that.
>
> How many sentences does it take to spell out what you people
> mean when you say that? Why the oversight?
>
> I'll get the ball rolling.
>
> Slip or choke collars have, I believe, the same physical sensation on a
> dog that striking the side of your hand (kinda like a karate chop) on
> your throat has on you. Try it lightly on yourself. Not a pleasent
> feeling is it? Just a tap goes all the way into your stomach.
>
> I cannot use them in a way that does not inhibit or intimidate the dog.
> I consider them physically painful, emotionally disastrous and
> impossible to use constructively.
>
> The prong or pinch collar when used in low gear inhibits the dog, and is
> therefore emotionally painful and an improper use of this collar.
>
> The prong or pinch collar when used in high gear inhibits the dog and is
> both physically and emotionally painful and an improper use of the
> collar.
>
> The prong or pinch collar when counter-conditioned in high gear,
> stimulates and excites the dog. It is physically painful--even though
> the dog's brain has been twisted to "enjoy" that pain. It is an
> emotional explosion which I do not claim to fully understand, although I
> seem to feel entitled to play around with.
>
> It can do tremendous emotional damage. Whether or not it's proper,
> I don't know. But this is the only way I'll use these things. Collar
> should always have pronged portion contacting neck top and sides.
> Leash is fitted at throat. All you need do is look at those prongs to
> know they have no business anywhere near a dog's throat.
>
> I'm not interested in a debate on any of this. What I am interested in
> is hearing everybody else who uses these things, or believes they are
> safe when used properly, to just briefly explain how to use them
> properly.
>
> Thanks,
> c55
>
>
> During the same period of time, he was posting under another
> name saying that prongs were wrong. I always surmised that this
> was his playground to get out his aggression (and I view that as
> Jerry's main priority here as well), and him jumping around was
> also his way of keeping Jerry from getting angry with him.
>
> You see (and I've said this before) Jerry will leave someone alone
> (no matter WHAT their methods are) as long as they kiss his ass
> and attack the same people that Jerry attacks. I was never a big fan
> of gangs, and since I wasn't going to join Jerry's, he decided to attack
> me as well.
>
> He is truly a hyppocrite and a liar....and one is known by the
> company they keep. I used to tell canis this weekly....and truth
> be told, I've lost world's of respect for him over the years for his
> support of Jerry's abuse.
>
> Tara
Subject: What's bugging Jerry today?
23 From: Lynn Kosmakos
Date: Sat, Aug 7 1999 12:00 am
Email: Lynn Kosmakos <lkosma...@home.com>
Jerry Howe wrote:
> I wonder howe my peers would advise me to deal with people like you? I
> know exactly what they'd tell me to tell you. They'd tell me that if I
> keep talking to you pigs the way I do, the real people out there will
> get turned off and not hear the important dog advice I have to give.
That's absolutely right, as many here have told you, many times.
> The solution is simple. I should not stoop low enough to engage in
> conversation of any sort with people that would be an embarrassment
> for me to be seen talking with anytime, anywhere.
Good solution. Do it.
Lynn K.
subject: Uncle Matty Pet abuser
39 From: Jerry Howe
Date: Sun, May 30 1999 12:00 am
CCCPUPS wrote:
> Are you for real?
Only an idiot would do things to their dog that are abusive.
There is no need to give sharp leash corrections under any
circumstances. Any trainer that needs to use force, fear, food
bribes, or confrontation should be doing something else, less
destructive, for a living. Margolis is an incompetent dog trainer.
The lady showed intelligence and concern for her dog.
Too bad you don't know any better.
Animals were put here for us to use as we see fit.
Some of us don't show respect at all for our dogs.
Jerry Howe,
Wits' End Dog Training
Witsend...@aol.com
http://www.doggydoright.com
Nature, to be mastered, must be obeyed.
-Francis Bacon-
There are terrible people who, instead of solving a
problem, bungle it and make it more difficult for all
who come after. Who ever can't hit the nail on the
head should, please, not hit at all.
-Nietzsche-
The abilities to think, rationalize and solve problems
are learned qualities.
The Wits' End Dog Training Method challenges the learning
centers in the dogs brain. These centers, once challenged,
develop and continue to grow exponentially to make him smarter.
The Wits' End Dog Training method capitalizes on praising
split seconds of canine thought, strategy, and timing, not
mindless hours of forced repetition, constant corrections,
and scolding.
-Jerry Howe-
UNCLE MATTY PET ABUSER, THIEF. LIAR, FRAUD EXPOSED
From: the_master222
Date: Wed, May 26 1999 12:00 am
Email: the_master...@my-dejanews.com
Groups: rec.pets.dogs.behavior
In article <19990525135245.02274.00002...@ng-cb1.aol.com>,
torilov...@aol.com (Torilovesk) wrote:
> Hello,
> I'm interested in knowing everyone's opnions on the training
> methods of Matthew Margolis. He seems a bit commercial/slick
> on his website, but that could be a prejudice of mine. Has
> anyone ever trained with him?
> Thanks,
> Tori Skezas
Like most dog trainers, Mathew Margolis doesn't understand
the first thing about dogs. His training techniques are based
mostly on fear, force, punishment, and repressing a dog's natural
instincts.
Hurting a dog, scaring a dog, and forcing a dog into position
(Margolis's techniques) destroy the natural instincts for group
harmony and cooperation.
If you're looking for someone who really knows how to work with
a dog's instincts, (and also BTW gets amazing results) contact
Kevin Behan. I studied with him myself and he's the best in the
business.
P.S.
The first thing about dogs is they are group predators, whose
pack instinct enables them to hunt large prey by acting together
in a spirit of group harmony and cooperation.
--
"NATURE IS NEVER WRONG"
--Rousseau
From: canis55
Date: Thurs, May 27 1999 12:00 am
Email: canis55 <cani...@my-deja.com>
In article <374D5C6C.C4204...@mit.edu>,
slar...@nospam.mit.edu wrote:
> I do think that Uncle Matty is amazingly good with the dogs.
> I was really in awe to see how quickly he could fix the
> jumping lab, and the lab's tail never stopped wagging.
Shannon,
Your gut instincts about this guy are right. I've seen him
in action. The tail wagging in the lab is about conflict
(social attraction vs social resistance). That lab knew just
who Uncle Matty is, he was just trying to figure out the
safest way to deal with him. I've found the safest way is
to avoid him.
Unfortunately the lab didn't have that option. As the
master, my master, pointed out, this guy doesn't know
the first thing about dogs.
Subject: Hey, HOWE COME Nobody Cares To Respond To This?
1 From: Tim Chong
Date: Sat, May 6 2000 12:00 am
Email: "Tim Chong" <timotheu...@prodigy.net>
Jerry, I've been following this list for quite a while and
people seem to object to you. I was just wondering, what's
your philosophy in training dogs? So far, I've gathered that
you don't think force is the answer to aggressive dogs, etc.
Just curious.
Tim and Hallie
Monterey, California
http://www.members.tripod.com/timotheus06/index.html
2 From: Jerry Howe
Date: Sun, May 7 2000 12:00 am
Email: "Jerry Howe" <j...@cfl.rr.com>
> Hi Jerry,
Hello Tamra,
> You responded to my Puppy Problems post earlier,
> and I thank you for your help.
My pleasure. I urge you to read the manual and use it.
Ask if you need help with the text or techniques.
> I also cruised through a few other posts and it seems
> people think you're the equivalent of Satan.
Indeed. We all have our own hell, don't we? I'm THEIRS.
> I don't understand that. What have you done?
I've exposed the Gang Of Thugs, the rpdb regulars who for
years have ridiculed and harassed every competent trainer
who has ever posted here, to avoid what I've done...I've
exposed them as the brutal control freaks they are.
> And do these people really hang their dogs as punishment?
Fact. It's the culmination of events when the koehler method of
incrementally increasing force and domination fails with about ten
percent of the dogs... Dominant dogs won't accept the force,
and they turn on their handlers or attack other, weaker family
members.
It is commonly know among non force trainers, that's how we
got to be non force trainers in the first place. The "koehler"
trainers blame the breeding, and dismiss it as genetic weakness
of the dog, OR, they blame the handler for not being consistently
brutal enough... Fact. They've been misled by a master. The
methodology makes perfect sense at some level, and then he
persuades the reader to believe that everything the dog does
wrong is a direct affront to the trainers authority. That appeals
to the weak mentality and the insecure ego of the trainer, and
given permission, they are vehement in confronting any
perceived "dominance" from the dog. I seldom ever use the idea
of dominance when addressing behavior problems, it only
creates conflict where there should be none.
> I've heard of the choke collar stuff and that seems bad
> enough. But I would never consider pinching my dog or
> punching him as a punishment.
Punishment has no bearing on dog training. I've never punished
a dog. I need them to work willingly because I ask them to, not
because the hammers of hell are going to come down on him
if he doesn't. The difference is, that I don't look at refusal to
perform a command as a personal affront, except as maybe an
affront to my own stupidity for not properly teaching the dog
what I needed him to do...
> I think the worst I ever did to Oscar was put him in the
> bathroom for a time out (More for me than him).
I appreciate that, for sure. But the methods I use will quickly get
you over the hump of trying to confront behaviors and insisting
that the dog respond. Once WE cease confronting the dog, the
dog will do everything we ask, within his ability to understand
our request.
> But he was only in there about a minute before I felt bad.
I'm not even sure that banishment means anything to the dog,
at least in context of his behavior. But for YOU, it may be
that few moments you need to recuperate from being pestered
by a young pup and his constant antics. Once the confrontation
is broken, then the dog will calm down and comply with virtually
everything you ask of him. I never raise my voice, never tell
the dog NO!, and seldom ever need to repeat a command. If I do
need to repeat a command, I do it using the appropriate sound
and praise technique, and the command is executed almost blindly
by the dog, because he's been conditioned to do so, within the
limits of his understanding the command...
> Anyway, I didn't want to pass judgment without giving you a
> chance, but so far I haven't found much that I don't agree
> with.
And you won't, either. I've been training dogs and people
for three dozen years. If I weren't successful, my own ego
would dictate that I did something else that I could excel at...
> What is it you do to get those people so upset?
For starters, I tell them it's not necessary to hurt dogs to
train them... A few months ago, even the clicker trainers would
have been ridiculed here. I've made a considerable contribution
towards improving the nature of the advice here. I think we're
nearing the end of the flame war, enough good folks like yourself
are beginning to understand the truth. The Gang Of Thugs has made
a concerted effort to persuade you that I am telling false tales
and making things up about them, in the hopes that twenty people
to one, will sway the opinion poll...They've never met anyone like
me before, and by the time they're done, they won't need to again,
because I'm going to fix their wagon, but good...
> Thanks,
> Tamra
Thank you, Tamra. Read the manual and ask
for help if you need it. Jerry.
Is it any wonder that the following sig file has generated
more complaints to my personal email than any other controversial
post I have made to date, bar none?:
caveat
If you have to do things to your dog to train him, that you would
rather not have to do, then you shouldn't be doing them. If you
have a dog trainer that tells you to jerk your dog around, choke
him, pinch his ears, or twist his toes, shock, shake, slap, scold,
hit, or punish him in any manner, that corrections are
appropriate, that the dog won't think of you as the punisher,
or that corrections are not harmful, or if they can't train your
dog to do what you want, look for a trainer that knows Howe.
Sincerely,
Jerry Howe,
Wits' End Dog Training
Witsend...@aol.com
http://www.doggydoright.com
Nature, to be mastered, must be obeyed.
-Francis Bacon-
There are terrible people who, instead of solving a problem,
bungle it and make it more difficult for all who come after.
Who ever can't hit the nail on the head should, please, not
hit at all.
-Nietzsche-
The abilities to think, rationalize and solve
problems are learned qualities.
The Wits' End Dog Training Method challenges the learning
centers in the dogs brain. These centers, once challenged,
develop and continue to grow exponentially, to make him smarter.
The Wits' End Dog Training method capitalizes on praising split
seconds of canine thought, strategy, and timing, not mindless
hours of forced repetition, constant corrections, and scolding.
-Jerry Howe-
Subject: To Jerry (Reprise) (Long)
From: Jerry Howe
Date: Wed, Jul 14 1999 3:00 am
Email: Jerry Howe <jho...@bellsouth.net>
Alison Smiley wrote:
Hello Alison,
I am quite far behind in much of my correspondences, I haven't
ignored you post, I simply haven't gotten to it yet. I'm doing
so now, because you evidently put in some effort, and I wouldn't
want to neglect your questions. If you hadn't noticed, the email
address at the top of the manual is the best way to insure an
immediate reply to any question. I check that mail account many
times a day.
> Jerry,
> I have not yet received a reply to my last message,
> so I will assume it went awry. If you get a chance please
> do look for it and respond to the question therein. However,
> the topic of this post is in quite a different vein.
>
> I have read your vaunted manual for the third and
> most in-depth time. I would like to present my questions
> to you.
>
> --"Having soured the spirit of a beautiful, troubled dog,
> while following the best advice available from the most
> accredited sources anywhere, was enough for [Jerry]."
> Whose advice were you following? Could you please
> describe the dog's "spirit" before and after training?
I had been working with an Army trainer who had spent many
years as a military instructor. Also, there were other
trainers, police, Air Force, various group classes, and of
course all of the books by Koehler, Saunders, and everything
else that could be found.
The dog was a Great Dane, a freebie that I picked up because
he was too much for the original family. Due to the training
he was going through, he developed a slight problem with biting
me. The recommended solution of course, was to learn to give
him an effective correction. After learning how to give an
effective correction, the dog was no good for anything, dour,
sad, pitiful.
I'd have done better off to have left him totally untrained.
I discontinued working him for several months, and started
figuring out a better method.
> --"We will never recommend...punishing sounds." What,
> then, is the shake can's purpose?
Not to punish, but to distract. We can use any sound, so long
as it is brief and instantly followed by praise, and can be
reproduced from different points of origin. I recommend the
cans, but you could use anything, even a matchbook could create
enough sound to be effective. The objective is not to frighten,
simply to distract momentarily.
> --"Your dog's job is to oppose you."
That's quite correct. Any physical or verbal force will be
opposed by the dog. Maybe not until months later, but it
starts with the first command to do, or not do something.
Once the dog understands you don't like it when he jumps
up, or gets on the couch, or pees on the floor, he understands
how to command your attention and pull your chain.
> This question actually comes from a friend of mine who
> thumbed through the first few pages of the manual when
> it was lying on my kitchen table. She is a dog lover but
> is not particularly interested in the various nuances of
> training methodology. Her question: Do you have a family
> dog that you love? What's its name and what is its favorite
> game to play with you?
I've got many dogs, I often work with them doing various short
term high security assignments. Their favorite pastime is being
at my side, looking for an opportunity to exercise their training.
> --In the section on proper handling of the lead, "Start by
> opening your hand with the thumb extended and palm facing
> you." Which hand is this?
It is explained in more detail about two paragraphs further
into the text. Either hand is acceptable, we use the lead
in the right hand while the dog is at heel, and the left
hand when he is at a distance or in front of us.
There is a caution in that paragraph, to not vary from the
above, unless physical impairment requires that you can not
use both hands in the prescribed manner. That is to prevent
accidentally restricting the dog on the lead, by keeping it
too short. We want plenty of slack in the lead, never any
tension on the collar.
> Sorry, but the paragraph is kind of confusing and it would
> be much easier to visualize with some clarification. --Same
> section, "...[N]othing in the Wits'End Dog Training Method
> (at this point) is arbitrary." Will you please tell me which
> parts ARE arbitrary so that I can avoid them if I read the
> manual again? I'm only concerned with what you, Jerry, have
> purposefully developed for dog training.
There is a paragraph or two marked arbitrary, because it
is just an interesting story about a couple of handlers
that caused me a good laugh.
> --In the section on the Family Pack Leadership Exercise:
> Are there any modifications to make since I am the only
> member of my family present?
Nope. If it's just you and your dog, that's the family
pack at the time. Other friends may be introduced to
the dog in the same manner, and in about fifteen minutes,
the dog will bond to them as thoroughly as he is with you.
> If not this sounds kind of like Koehler's initial
> leash breaking method.
I rather doubt that. Lots of things I have in the manual
look at first glance like information or techniques that
may be found elsewhere. Closer examination will show a
remarkable difference.
> --"Just because we're gentle and humane, does not mean
> you can't be vindictive." Wow. Does this explain your
> vengeful behavior on this ng?
That was meant to be humorous. My vengeful behavior here
is one of my shortcomings with people that have had ample
opportunity to learn, and because of their apathy, ignorance
or force of habit, choose not to improve their methods of
handling, and insist on advising people that corrections,
scolding, and incarceration are appropriate methods for training.
Dogs die needlessly because of the rotten advice being give
out in this news group, and I'm determined to change it.
Reason doesn't work with these "expert trainers", so maybe
embarrassment will.
There's a couple more dogs this week that are in serious
trouble, because the abusive methods that they've been
recommended here are backfiring. Several posters here will
end up with dead dogs within the next few months.
You'll see, and then maybe some others here will
also see, and learn what I'm trying to tell them.
> --Oops, backtrack. About conditioning the dog to come.
> As I see it one is to take a dog that has never heard
> the word "come" before in its life.
You betcha. We can change the dog's name and erase his
response to his former name in about forty five minutes.
Like that? I do it all the time when I take a new dog,
or if I've got a student with a new dog from a shelter
or other dubious source. Old friends of the dog can not
get the dog to respond, they will never know it's even
the same dog, no matter how well they knew him.
> Command it to do so.
Ask. There are no commands, as such. Everything is done
in a pleasant even tempered tone of voice, a request, not
a command. No implied "command tone," that challenges the
dog. They, like myself, won't work properly under duress.
> Being oblivious to the meaning of the word, the dog
> will fail to comply, so command it to come again (this
> time with the startling shake can to scare it toward you).
If you're going to jerk my chain, I'll not answer more
questions. The sound must come from the handler on the
second request, and from beyond the dog on the fourth
request. The first and third request are without sound.
There's not any implication that fear is being used here.
You are reading things into the text that are not there.
> If it doesn't run back to you for comfort, command it
> to come yet again then command "come" with the startlement
> coming from behind to help push the dog toward you.
Not so fast. You didn't do so well reading the right stuff,
then you read things into the stuff that isn't there. We are
not scaring the dog, he's not coming to be comforted.
He's coming because we're praising and coaxing and stepping
backwards away from him, without pulling. The sound is to be
associated with the "command." The more stimuli that can be
associated with one command means more brain is allocated to
the command.
> And now, in four repetitions, the dog runs in to
> you to hide from all the scary sounds.
No, but he may if you screw it up. The objective is to use
multiple stimuli to associate the command with the action.
> But Jerry, what if you have a properly socialized dog that
> merely goes to find the source of the sound, or ignores it
> as non- threatening?
You couldn't have really read the manual. The objective is
to command the dog's attention with prolonged, non physical
praise immediately following the sound.
Sounds to me like you tried that, and the dog looked for the
source of the sound? Further reading of the manual cautions
that if this seems to happen, it is because your timing is
off, that the sound was prolonged, or that you failed to
praise him fast enough, long enough, or exuberantly enough,
to pull the dog's attention in towards you. That's what makes
it work, not intimidation or fear of the can.
> --Do you recommend isolating the dog before training
> sessions in order to get a more enthusiastic response?
Nope. Nor do I recommend exercising the dog prior to training,
food bribes, or feeding him within a couple hours prior to training,
as that can make them want to nap.
> OK, I'm getting tired of typing every reaction I have to that
> manual. Suffice it to say that I don't approve of teaching a dog by
> punishing it for not obeying a command you haven't taught it yet.
Suffice it to say that you didn't thoroughly read and correctly
understand the text. Properly done, the dog will not think of
it as punishment. Is there anything wrong with teaching a dog
to come, and not pull on lead, and to not jump, or to not get
up on furniture, or to not bark at guests, or any other malbehavior
that he had, all within an hour or two of work? Doesn't seem
to me to be such a bad deal, getting a fairly obedient, happy
dog, that comes every time you call.
I seldom have to work with a student a second time, unless
we're going into more advanced obedience or protection work.
> There are things that I do like in the manual. Things like
> incorporating the entire body into the signal to "heel." Or
> sound as a distractor--but using it, not like you do, but
> like the Monks of New Skete do.
>From what I recall of the monks, they did use sound incorrectly.
The method they recommended was faulty. But they liked it, they
also like slapping dogs around, and jerking their choke collars,
and scruff shaking, and intimidating them.
The heeling pattern exercise is a little bit complicated, it'll
take a couple of days to begin to get a feel for, but it is very
powerful. I've seen it work miracles on shy, nervous, timid, or
abused dogs. It'll stop certain serious behavior problems,
everything from destructiveness and kennelosis, to licking dermatitis.
> I think Marilyn also has the hang of using a POSITIVE
> distractor instead of a negative one.
I've not had any difficulty with dogs objecting or getting
nervous or being intimidated by it, but that's probably
because when I work with people, I make sure their timing
is correct. We can do that on the phone, if that seems to
be a problem.
> All in all, my close reading of your manual has proved quite
> informative, and with your responses it will be more so.
I hope you benefit from it. It was hurriedly written because
of the necessity to have something available that would solve
people's problems and not louse up any more dogs.
> I do have to say, I don't think Canis and Marilyn have read
> it quite this closely. If they had they would not be endorsing
> it so wholeheartedly.
I couldn't speak for them. Some people look at it with a
jaundiced eye, and interpret things differently than they
were intended. I tend to be a little less rigid than most
people when I write.
> Jerry bases many of his techniques on pack hierarchy
> and dominance, which Canis detests.
Yes and no. I use psychological dominance, in a very subtle
manner, that is compelling to the dog, but not domineering
at all. I use pack hierarchy in the form of proper leadership
and demonstration by example. Not the usual concept of pack
hierarchy and dominance. If you saw that in there, I didn't
put it there.
> And while Marilyn credits her new all-positive training program
> to Jerry, she is using her zils as a positively conditioned distractor
> whereas Jerry's soda cans are meant only to be novel and startling.
As I said, if the technique is done correctly, there is no
misunderstanding on the dogs behalf. If you don't follow the
directions, things will go wrong. The first introduction to
the come command isn't supposed to happen until the Hot and
Cold exercise, and the FPLX are being done.
> Well, I hope I get some feedback as to my interpretation of this
> manual. My dog is coming back to live with me in less than two weeks
> and I'd like to have a definite training regimen ready to go when
> she arrives.
If you have further questions, write me directly, and I'll respond
within a couple of hours. Here on the ng, I often miss or can't find
posts that I've looked at, and wanted to but didn't get back to. I've
got lots of partial responses to letters that I've started, and just
don't have time to finish.
Good luck training you pup.
> Sincerely,
> Alison Smiley
> --
> Zone 8
> GSD owner
> Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
> Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
Is it any wonder that the following sig file has generated more
complaints to my personal email than any other controversial post
I have made to date, bar none?:
If you have to do things to your dog to train him, that you would
rather not have to do, then you shouldn't be doing them. If you
have a dog trainer that tells you to jerk your dog around, shock,
or punish him in any manner, that corrections are appropriate,
that the dog won't think of you as the punisher, or that corrections
are not harmful, or they can't train your dog to do what you want,
look for a trainer that knows Howe.
Sincerely,
Jerry Howe,
Wits' End Dog Training
Witsend...@aol.com
http://www.doggydoright.com
Nature, to be mastered, must be obeyed.
-Francis Bacon-
There are terrible people who, instead of solving a problem,
bungle it and make it more difficult for all who come after. Who
ever can't hit the nail on the head should, please, not hit at all.
-Nietzsche-
The abilities to think, rationalize and solve problems are learned
qualities.
The Wits' End Dog Training Method challenges the learning
centers in the dogs brain. These centers, once challenged,
develop and continue to grow exponentially, to make him smarter.
The Wits' End Dog Training method capitalizes on praising split
seconds of canine thought, strategy, and timing, not mindless
hours of forced repetition, constant corrections, and scolding.
-Jerry Howe-
10 From: Jerry Howe - view profile
Date: Wed, Jul 14 1999 12:00 am
Email: Jerry Howe <jho...@bellsouth.net>
Groups: rec.pets.dogs.behavior
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Alison Smiley wrote:
> Bioso...@aol.com wrote:
> <long message snipped>
> > If you have further questions, write me directly, and I'll respond within a
> > couple of hours. Here on the ng, I often miss or can't find posts that I've
> > looked at, and wanted to but didn't get back to. I've got lots of partial
> > responses to letters that I've started, and just don't have time to finish.
> Thank you Jerry. Not only did you clarify a lot of things for me, you
> also used the most civil tone I've seen yet. I really appreciate that, as
> anything else would undoubtedly have turned me off. In the same vein, I
> apologize for my own tone in parts of that message, and my purposefully
> inflammatory interpretation of the "come" exercise. As I wrote that part
> I knew in the back of my head that I was really responding to what I
> imagined you'd tell me. I also somehow had gotten it into my head that
> part of the sequence was saying "no" when the dog failed to respond to
> "come." This upset me, colored that paragraph, and then I reread the
> manual and realized that I was wrong, removed "saying no" but left the
> belligerence. But you don't care about that.
> Your assumption that I had a dog that did not perform correctly is wrong.
> At this point I do not have a dog at all. My German Shepherd is living
> with my parents right now, has been for two years, but in one week she
> will be coming back to me and I will be able to resume her training. I
> hope that I will have figured out the right combination of techniques to
> stimulate her by then. I first gave your manual a chance because you
> decry the use of food treats, which I have already determined are all
> wrong for this dog and possibly most dogs.
> I will write your email address with more specific questions once I
> absorb what you've told me so far. I do have one question right now. What
> if I were to condition the dog to associate, say, the jingle of a set of
> keys with something positive. And then I used that jingle in place of the
> soda can. I believe you would disapprove of this, but what would be your
> specific objections?
> Thank you,
> Alison Smiley
> PS-Jerry, can't you do anything about the length of your sig?
> --
> Zone 8
> GSD owner
> Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
> Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
Thanks, Allison,
I'm not hateful of the people that disagree with me. I've got pretty
thick skin,
and I'm not about to let animosity stand in the way of helping someone
with an
honest, seriously asked question. When they come around, and most will
(I assure
you of that), I'll be just as chummy with them as any of my heretofore
supporters. This isn't a popularity contest, or simply an I'm right and
everybody's wrong issue...
Dogs lives depend on getting these antiquated, ineffective, harmful,
backward
approaches and methodologies put to rest, instead of putting to rest
the 10% of
the dogs that won't conform to submitting to "abuse."
The method as described by Marilyn, is excellent. I see no problem with
using it,
and intend to try it out on a few dogs myself, perhaps I'll incorporate
it or
even switch to it. I'm incredibly more flexible than people would
surmise by my
attitude here. I'm always looking for ways to save time, effort, and
money, as
long as they do not compromise the quality of performance. The only
drawback to
Marilyn's method as I see it, is that it takes time to condition the
response. I
work with many dangerous dogs, and rely on the conditioned reflex to
instantly
compel the dog to respond , to avoid an accident. It is extremely
proficient and
expedient, and can be installed in about forty five minutes of work.
That means
that when I leave a students house after just one and one half hours of
work, I
get a good night sleep, knowing that I'm not going to be getting a call
that
their dog just bit someone and must die as a default.
It's curious that the same day Marilyn described her method, a student
of mine
wrote to say that her dog was following the little sounder she had
improvised, as
her dog was hypersensitive to sounds. Of course, the method I use
requires
absolute silence of the sounds unless being used, and must always be
followed
with non physical praise, with the one exception of use after the fact,
on a
behavior we were not available to address directly at the time it
occurred. I'll
work with combining the techniques, and let you know what I've
determined.
It sounds like you are on the right track, and won't have any problem
achieving a
remarkably well trained dog. Pay particular diligence to the leash
handling
techniques in the manual, improperly handling the lead is the first
step down a
slippery slope. Canis55 has an excellent text he may be willing to
share with
you, I'm sure you'll find it as remarkable as I do.
The sig file, I agree, is longer than I'd prefer, but the
message is important.
I'll delete it as soon as it is no longer necessary to warn
people of the pitfalls of dealing with "expert advice" from
incompetent trainers with nothing more than a wall full of
pretty ribbons to speak for their success.
Sincerely,
Jerry.
flick
news:eei024$pvh$1...@panix2.panix.com...
>
> Uh, Office macros are a common infection vector, and it's
> very common to have Word or Word Viewer configured to open
> downloaded .doc files by default. Never download anything
> unless you're sure of the source and the contents.
>
> I'll refrain from commenting on your ability to identify and
> evaluate risk.
My antivirus programs scan .doc documents before allowing the word processor
to open them. As should everyone's. Just like it does .html files, .pdf
files, .wav files, etc.
> <-- passive-aggressive!
No, just stupid. Or maybe hopeful.
flick 100785
Mary H Healey
> "Todd H." <t...@toddh.net> wrote:
>> Has your dog ever whelped from a correction on the pinch collar?
My dogs are all neutered males. Difficult for them to whelp for any
reason, really.
> The woman at the store said, essentially, that if you control the
> dog's head, you control the dog.
More accurately, if you control the dog's brain (in the sense of having his
attention and focus), you control the dog.
Human_And_Animal_Behaviour_Foren...@hotmail.com
dog abusing punk thug coward active acute chronic
long term incurable mental case and professional dog
trainin FRAUD an SCAM ARTIST,
"Mary H Healey" <mhhe...@iastate.edu> wrote in message
news:Xns9840C98D959CBm...@130.133.1.4...
> "Paul E. Schoen" <pst...@smart.net> wrote:
>> "Todd H." <t...@toddh.net> wrote:
>
>>> Has your dog ever whelped from a correction on the pinch collar?
>
> My dogs are all neutered males.
Surgical sexual mutilation is unnecessary inapupriate
life and heelth threatining veterinary malpractice.
> Difficult for them to whelp for any reason, really.
Yeah. paul was talkin abHOWET YELP.
Dogs often YELP when jerked an choked on your
proned spiked pinch choke collar <{) : ~ ( >
LIKE THIS:
leah roberts wrote:
"For a quick sit and down, she needed corrections. When we
first got out there and I told her to sit the normal way (verbal
cue and hand signal), she totally blew me off.
So Rick came over and showed me how to correct her. And
she did yelp a couple of times. Even once when I corrected
her, and I know that *I* didn't do it very hard. I think it was
out of surprise, not pain."
>> The woman at the store said, essentially, that if you
>> control the dog's head, you control the dog.
Pretty much. UNLESS of curse you try to FORCE CON-TROLL.
> More accurately, if you control the dog's brain
Even better, eh mary?
> (in the sense of having his attention and focus),
You mean, like with a COOKIE, mary?
> you control the dog.
Oh? YOU MEAN LIKE THIS, mary?
Let's talk abHOWET your own dogs, mary?:
"I use him as a demonstration dog in obedience classes.
Sam started chasing cars at 10 weeks and never did stop."
"He did learn to control himself,"
"He did learn to control himself,"
"He did learn to control himself,"
Sam is why I'm "allergic" to puppies, but also why I
adore obnoxious adolescent dawgs. I dragged him to
obedience class when he was 6 months old, he dragged
me to obedience class (and agility class, and clicker
training class, and seminars, and show-n-gos, and fun
matches) for the next 4 years.
The world is a safer place now for dirty underwear and
plastic baggies.
I can go back to leaving the laundry basket on the floor.
And the trash cans. And I can remove my watch and set it
down without finding bits of its little crystal carcass in
Sam's crate. I won't have to flush Sam out from under the
dinner table, or eat with hot dogbreath steaming up my leg.
ANZ Sam-I-Am -- half ACD, all dog.
MHH
"I use him as a demonstration dog in obedience classes.
Sam started chasing cars at 10 weeks and never did stop."
"He did learn to control himself,"
"He did learn to control himself,"
"He did learn to control himself,"
Heck, I still have an ACD who adores all people (also
not "normal" breed behavior!), but he's very breed-
typical in his attempts to control and "police" the
behavior of other dogs.
"I use him as a demonstration dog in obedience classes.
Sam started chasing cars at 10 weeks and never did stop."
Left to his own devices, he'd be picking fights and
bossing everydoggy. That's why he's not left to his
own devices.
That's why he's not left to his own devices.
I wouldn't take Ranger to a dog park.
I have let him off lead, but only to play fetch
(he's ball obsessed) and never with strange dogs
around.
He can be a gentleman, but I can't depend on it."
Ooooooh! SCARY, ain't it!
You mean on accHOWENT of YOU GOT THE SAME PROBLEM
the original poster was askin for ADVICE abHOWET.
You gonna tell us HOWE you managed to EXXXPERTLY
PROFESSIONALLY TRAIN your own fear aggressive dogs
to be FEAR AGGRESSIVE when you ain't standin there
ready and able to HURT and INTIMIDATE them someMOORE?
On accHOWENT of her EXXXPERTLY PROFESSIONALLY TRAINED
DOG WILL RUN HOWET ON HER and would NEVER return JUST
LIKE HOWE dra linda aka tallgrass's St. Bernard jumped
her six foot fence and ESCAPED <{); ~ ) >
On accHOWENT of YOU GOT THE SAME PROBLEM the original
poster was ASKING for ADVICE, REMEMBER mary <{); ~ ) >
Subject: Re: Car Chasin' Dog
HOWEDY mary,
"Mary H Healey" <mhhea...@iastate.edu> wrote in message
news:41E68BA0...@iastate.edu...
> ella wrote:
> > Any thoughts on how to convince an otherwise
> > well trained dog NOT to chase cars.
Yeah. That's EZ if you know HOWE.
> You've had some good advice
That so, mary? The only ADVICE she was given
was to REWARD the BAD BEHAVIOR with treats
and to choke and intimidate the dog someMOORE.
REMEMBER mary, you miserable dog abusing mental case?
> (incompatible behavior,
That won't EXXXTINGUISH the behavior, mary,
that's what you do when you CAN'T TRAIN the
dog NOT to DO the behavior, mary.
> "leave it",
You mean jerk and choke IT while SCREAMIN "LEAVE IT"
like HOWE your pal taragreen2 was fixin to teach us
pryor to getin CHOKED UP.
> prong collar, etc.),
You mean when regular jerking and choking
on your slip choke collar don't HURT and
INTIMDIATE the dog ENOUGH to make IT
respect your AUTHORITY, mary?
> and I've used most of them,
INDEEDY. THAT'S HOWE COME The Amazing Puppy
Wizard SEZ: "DECENT PEOPLE DO NOT POST HERE
abHOWETS."
REMEMBER mary, you dog abusing mental case?
> but the simplest "fix" I've used is to simply
> put myself between the dog and the traffic.
You mean a barrier. Ever heard of BARRIER
FRUSTRATION SYNDROME, mary? You could
make yourself the stimuli that TRIGGERS the
BAD BEHAVIOR if you're the BARRIER behind
which the dog dog barks. It only takes a few
repetitions to train ANY dog to bark as soon
as the BARRIER is presented, if we CONDITION
the dog to BARK EVERY TIME the barrier is in
place... so, WON missed opportunity will TRAIN
the dog to bark at ANY THING if you're standin
in front of IT to AVOID the BAD BEHAVIOR.
BWEEEEEEEEEEEAAAHAHAHHAHAHAAA!!!
> If you're walking with the flow of cars on your left,
The dog will bolt and pull her into the traffic.
> have the dog walk to your right, no more than
> a body length ahead or behind you.
You mean, CONfHOWEND the dog's heel command?
> Don't expect him to grow out of this behavior.
RIGHT. You can TRAIN the dog not to do
that in a couple minutes, IOW, NEARLY
INSTANTLY, maybe faster if you know HOWE.
But the dog AIN'T GONNA HOWEtgrHOWE the
VISUAL ORAL REFLEX, mary.
THAT has to be DECONDITIONED, mary.
LUCKY THING dogs are CREATURES OF HABIT
and therefore CAN BE TRAINED NEARLY INSTANTLY.
AIN'T IT, mary, you miserable stinkin university
educated dog abusing mental case?
> My Sam, bless his pointy ears,
You mean your Sam whom you jerk
and choke and lock in a box, mary.
> started chasing cars at 10 weeks and never did stop.
Well then mary, you're just the WON to ADVISE US
HOWE to TRAIN HOWER dogs NOT to DO THAT.
Just start by tellin us HOWE you handled and trained
your little doggy Sam since DAY WON and we'll know
what NOT to do to MAKE dogs FEAR AGGRESSIVE
of passing cars, eh mary?
> He'd chase 'em from inside my car,
On accHOWENT of you couldn't jerk and choke
IT EVERY TIME on accHOWENT of you was busy
DRIVING, therebye VARIABLY REINFORCING the
BAD BEHAVIOR EVERY TIME you FAILED TO HURT
and INTIMDATE HIM in a timely manner.
THAT'S HOWE COME AVERSIVES DO NOT TRAIN DOGS,
mary, you dog abusing mental case.
> along the road, wherever, whenever.
Any time you rely on PAIN FEAR FORCE BRIBERY
and INTIMIDATION and FAIL to HURT INTIMIDATE
or successfully BRIBE the dog to AVOID a behavior
of the cunning domestic puppy dog you ain't got the
INTELLECT to HOWEtwit, you've VARIABLY RE-
ENFORCED the BAD BEHAVIOR.
> He did learn to control himself,
That so? You mean so long as you could throw
yourself in front of and between your dog and
an oncommin ANY THING, mary.
> but almost every long walk would have him
> diving at the wheels of some poor unsuspecting
> vehicle.
"He did learn to control himself,"
"He did learn to control himself,"
"He did learn to control himself,"
ANY behavior that's CONSISTENT PREDICTABLE
and REPEATABLE is EZ to EXXXTINGUISH NEARLY
INSTANTLY if we DON'T DO what you done to your
poor miserable abused dog Sammy since DAY WON
you miserable dog abusing mental case.
> It was always most likely when he was a little tired.
That so?
"He did learn to control himself,"
"He did learn to control himself,"
"He did learn to control himself,"
> Of course, that's also when I was likely
> to be a little tired, so maybe it was more
> my reaction time
"He did learn to control himself,"
"He did learn to control himself,"
"He did learn to control himself,"
You mean, you didn't HURT and INTIMIDATE
your little dog Sammy in time to EXXXTINGUISH
the behavior from DAY WON, eh mary?
> than his self-control that frayed a bit.
"He did learn to control himself,"
"He did learn to control himself,"
"He did learn to control himself,"
You're a mental case, mary. If the dog
learned SELF CON-TROLL you wouldn't
have to THROW YOURSELF IN FRONT
of your dog when it makes an ATTACK.
> YMMV,
"He did learn to control himself,"
"He did learn to control himself,"
"He did learn to control himself,"
You mean she MIGHT GET LUCKY and
CURE the problem by doin what you done
to CAUSE the problem, mary? Is that SANE?
> no warranty, etc.
"He did learn to control himself,"
"He did learn to control himself,"
"He did learn to control himself,"
You can't post here abHOWETS nodoGgamened
MOORE you miserable dog abusing punk thug
coward and active long term incurable university
trained MENTAL CASE.
> Damn, I miss that dog.
BWEEEEEEEEEEEAAHAHAHAHAHAAA!!
Melinda Shore
flick <fl...@starband.net> wrote:
>My antivirus programs scan .doc documents before allowing the word processor
>to open them. As should everyone's. Just like it does .html files, .pdf
>files, .wav files, etc.
The number of people who don't have antivirus software on
their computers, or have them and fail to keep the
signatures up-to-day, is large enough that now major vendors
like Cisco and Microsoft are selling network access control
technologies to prevent machines whose security posture is
deemed inadequate from being allowed onto networks.
Insufficient technological protection against threats in
addition to bad decision-making by users (people who are
curious about what's in attachments and open them even
though they know it's risky) is more common than not.
FWIW, I ran without antivirus protection until last year.
In over 25 years, I've never had a compromise in any of the
machines for which I was responsible and I've never had a
virus. Understand the threats, make good decisions. Oh,
and stay on top of the facts.
Paul E. Schoen
"pfoley" <pfo...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:Xz%Og.2431$UG4....@newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net...
almost every way, except that he was very hard to control when outside on a
walk. He would pull hard on the choker collar when he wanted to go after a
squirrel or just to follow his nose. Doyle was able to give him a bath with
flea soap. He had to pick him up and put him in the tub, but once he was
wet, he seemed to enjoy it and didn't struggle. When I got there Muttley
was tied loosely on the porch, standing up with tail wagging, and he
greeted me with enthusiasm, then settled down to relax on the porch.
He was very good on the trip home, riding shotgun with just his nose out
the window. He was happy to be home, but he was a bit too enthusiastic
about getting out of the car. He and Photon looked at each other for a few
seconds until she retreated under the floor, and he was not too aggressive.
He napped on the bed for a while, as I did some things on the computer.
Eventually he let me know he needed attention, and I decided to try the
large prong collar. He did not really resist my slipping it over his neck.
It did not work when I had the choke collar also hooked to the leash, so I
used just the prong collar. I did not need to yank on it or exert much
tension. He seemed to realize that it would be uncomfortable to tug harder,
so he exercised good loose leash control on the way out, and was able to
heel pretty well when so instructed on the way back. I gave him praise for
his good behavior, and he sat pretty well while I removed the collar and
allowed him free run of the house. Now he is snoozing on his dog pad. I'll
try the collar again tomorrow on a longer walk with more distractions, and
hopefully he will be easier to control. I am quite convinced that the
localized pressure from the multiple prongs will not hurt him as much as
having him pull on the choker collar until he gasps. I put the prong collar
on my arm and pulled firmly, with no real pain.
I have also heard some mention of shock collars, and noise distractions for
training. As an electronics engineer, I can understand how shock collars
might work, although I would think it would require a rather high voltage
to be effective through a thick layer of hair. It would need to be current
limited, of course, to avoid burning or muscle damage once insulation
breakdown occurred, and also for various conditions such as rain, humidity,
or proximity of the prong to the skin. Anyone who has undergone physical
therapy may have experienced electrical stimulation, where electrodes are
placed on the skin and a variable, pulsating current is imposed. At low
levels, it can be almost pleasant, and does not really hurt until higher
levels are set. It is possible to develop some tolerance for it, and people
have different thresholds. I can see that a properly designed shock collar
could be effective and humane, but there is a very real danger of improper
use, poor design, or component failure which might present a dangerous or
lethal shock hazard.
It seems to me that a safer device might be one which emitted a high
pitched audio tone, probably beyond the range of human hearing, but readily
heard by dogs, and adjusted in tone and intensity as required to be
somewhere between distracting and irritating. If incorporated in a collar,
it could be close enough to the dog's ears to be effective on him, but not
too loud for other dogs in the vicinity. It might even be effective to keep
aggressive dogs at a distance. I think it would be important to have a
simple control on the leash for manual use by the trainer, but there could
also be a strain gauge built in which would increase the sound as the dog
strained harder on the leash. Is there any such device on the market, and
if not, would it be effective, and should I rush to the patent office?
Just some thoughts. This has been an interesting discussion. Even Jerry
seems to have some reasonable ideas, although I only skimmed a bit of one
of his posts, and his attitude and verbosity make for a tough read.
Thanks,
Paul
Handsome Jack Morrison
<pst...@smart.net> wrote:
[]
>Well, I got Muttley back from my friend Doyle, who said he was very good in
>almost every way, except that he was very hard to control when outside on a
>walk. He would pull hard on the choker collar when he wanted to go after a
>squirrel or just to follow his nose.
For crissakes, and for the sake of poor ol' Muttley, stop using the
choke collar until someone can show you how to use it correctly.
Please?
It's a TRAINING collar. And if there ain't no TRAINING going on, take
it off and leave it off.
Geez.
> I'll
>try the collar again tomorrow on a longer walk with more distractions,
Noooooo! He's not ready for distractions yet. He needs to learn how
to heel on a loose leash when there *aren't* any distractions first,
and that may take some time.
If you care anything at all about Muttley, you'll stop futzing around
like Mr. Wizard on speed and just wait until your TRAINER can show and
tell you what to do.
>I have also heard some mention of shock collars,
Oh, please. Stop! You don't need an e-collar. You just need some
freakin' patience, and some help from an experienced TRAINER.
[]
>Just some thoughts. This has been an interesting discussion. Even Jerry
>seems to have some reasonable ideas,
Yeah, that's the smart thing to do.
Start listening to Jerry, our resident loon.
Geez.
Poor, poor Muttley.
--
Handsome Jack Morrison
Finally! The WHO gets one right. DDT okay again for developing countries, Africa.
http://instapundit.com/archives/032591.php
Lancing a boil or two is messy work:
http://theanchoressonline.com/2006/09/15/benedicts-blunder-was-partly-media-enhanced/
Two words for Muslims angry at Pope Benedict:
http://bamapachyderm.com/archives/2006/09/15/message-to-muslims-angry-at-pope-benedict/
Losing Our Will to Win, by Ed Koch (a Democratic patriot):
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2006/09/losing_our_fighting_spirit.html
A very, very brave woman dies - Oriana Fallaci. R.I.P.
(read her books, while you still can)
http://michellemalkin.com/archives/005934.htm
http://pajamasmedia.com/2006/09/in_memoriam.php
The Iraqi Truth Project:
http://www.iraqitruthproject.com/
Payback's gonna be a real bitch.
http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2006/09/10/a_new_low_in_bush_hatred/
Deranged Democrat Watch
http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?entry=22450_Deranged_Democrat_Watch#comments
"Reality Based" Community Watch:
http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?entry=22395_Reality-Based_Community_Watch#comments
The "Azzam" Threat: A prelude to Future Jihad in America:
http://counterterrorismblog.org/2006/09/the_azzam_threat_a_prelude_to.php
Jeff Dege
> "Melinda Shore" <sh...@panix.com> wrote in message
> news:eei024$pvh$1...@panix2.panix.com...
>
> My antivirus programs scan .doc documents before allowing the word processor
> to open them. As should everyone's. Just like it does .html files, .pdf
> files, .wav files, etc.
Data files don't execute instructions on your computer - only files with
executable content do that.
So you're not going to pick up an infection from a .pdf or a .wav file.
Executable content in a .html file is interpreted code that is run in a
restrictive environment, so they're pretty much safe, too.
.Doc files can include compiled executable content that executes on your
machine without any protection. That's why they are inherently dangerous.
The virus scanners can only search for patterns that they recognize -
which means they can only protect you against malicious code that is both
wide spread and has been around for a while.
They're by no means complete protection.
--
There is danger from all men. The only maxim of a free government ought
to be to trust no man living with power to endanger the public liberty.
- Right-wing extremist John Adams
Jeff Dege
> Eventually he let me know he needed attention, and I decided to try the
> large prong collar. He did not really resist my slipping it over his neck.
A properly-fitted prong collar cannot be slipped over the head of most
dogs, and can't be safely slipped over the head of any dog.
> I can see that a properly designed shock collar
> could be effective and humane, but there is a very real danger of improper
> use, poor design, or component failure which might present a dangerous or
> lethal shock hazard.
It's a real concern, with low-quality collars. A few dogs have been
severely injured by shorting collars.
The answer, of course, is not to stint on the quality. Stick to the
collars that are designed for wetland bird dogs. If it will handle a lab
breaking through the ice on a rush for a downed duck, it will handle a run
through the sprinkler.
Stick to the top brands - Dogtra or TriTronics. And avoid like the plague
any collar that has user-changeable batteries in the receiver. The
receiver should be factory-sealed. No access panels, switches or moving
parts.
> It seems to me that a safer device might be one which emitted a high
> pitched audio tone, probably beyond the range of human hearing, but readily
> heard by dogs, and adjusted in tone and intensity as required to be
> somewhere between distracting and irritating. If incorporated in a collar,
> it could be close enough to the dog's ears to be effective on him, but not
> too loud for other dogs in the vicinity.
There seems to be a constant search for alternatives to the electric
shock. Sound, vibration, citronella sprays. Nothing we've tried yet has
worked as well.
--
.Sig?
flick
>
> Data files don't execute instructions on your computer - only files with
> executable content do that.
>
> So you're not going to pick up an infection from a .pdf or a .wav file.
>
> Executable content in a .html file is interpreted code that is run in a
> restrictive environment, so they're pretty much safe, too.
>
> .Doc files can include compiled executable content that executes on your
> machine without any protection. That's why they are inherently dangerous.
>
> The virus scanners can only search for patterns that they recognize -
> which means they can only protect you against malicious code that is both
> wide spread and has been around for a while.
>
> They're by no means complete protection.
My MS Word is set up not to run macros except from certain named sources.
flick 100785
flick
>
> The number of people who don't have antivirus software on
> their computers, or have them and fail to keep the
> signatures up-to-day, is large enough that now major vendors
> like Cisco and Microsoft are selling network access control
> technologies to prevent machines whose security posture is
> deemed inadequate from being allowed onto networks.
> Insufficient technological protection against threats in
> addition to bad decision-making by users (people who are
> curious about what's in attachments and open them even
> though they know it's risky) is more common than not.
>
> FWIW, I ran without antivirus protection until last year.
> In over 25 years, I've never had a compromise in any of the
> machines for which I was responsible and I've never had a
> virus. Understand the threats, make good decisions. Oh,
> and stay on top of the facts.
Very kind of you to make sure we're protected here. We've been trading
files with other computers for a long time, and our exp. has been like
yours, thankfully.
It seems that ISPs are telling people about viruses when they sign up for
internet service, too.
flick 100785
Melinda Shore
flick <fl...@starband.net> wrote:
>It seems that ISPs are telling people about viruses when they sign up for
>internet service, too.
People *know*. They make bad decisions. Last year the
Washington Post had a particularly entertaining article
about people who opened files they knew they shouldn't
because they were curious. That's been our experience, as
well.
But having careless clowns running around saying things like
"I don't think it's anything sinister. It's a .doc file,
not an .html" helps boost my employer's revenues and share
value, for which I guess I thank you.
Melinda Shore
Jeff Dege <jd...@jdege.visi.com> wrote:
>Data files don't execute instructions on your computer - only files with
>executable content do that.
Unfortunately that dichotomy isn't as di- as it used to be.
There are now several well-known exploits based on
manipulation of executable code through the use of malformed
data files, probably the best-known of which is the .gif/.png
attack against MS Office.
>Executable content in a .html file is interpreted code that is run in a
>restrictive environment, so they're pretty much safe, too.
That depends on a number of factors, not the least of which
is the use of Active X controls as attack vectors.
>.Doc files can include compiled executable content that executes on your
>machine without any protection. That's why they are inherently dangerous.
Macros aren't compiled, they're interpreted.
pfoley
===============
Never, there was never any pain inflicted on the dog from the prong collar.
The fact that she knew, if I tightened up a little it could pinch her, she
would behave. I hardly ever use the link collar anymore now. I use just
the leash and the collar, and if I find myself getting into a sticky
situation, I remove her leather leash, make a noose out of the handle end
and slip that over her neck, then hold it up by her ears for control until
the situation has passed. But, it depends where I am planning on going with
her, or who I am walking with if I use the link collar or not. When I walk
in the forest each day, I walk her on leash with just her leather collar for
awhile, and then most of the time she is off leash. If she were dog
aggressive, I would always use the prong collar, but she is not that type
of dog. I used to use the prong collar more when walking my other Rottie,
as I was never sure what her reaction would be when meeting another dog;
some she would like and others she would not, and I never knew how it would
go, so I needed more control of her, and I never let her off leash other
than in the yard. If I do use the prong collar, I remove it after walking;
I never leave it on the dog.
Jeff Dege
> In article <pan.2006.09.17....@jdege.visi.com>,
> Jeff Dege <jd...@jdege.visi.com> wrote:
>>Data files don't execute instructions on your computer - only files with
>>executable content do that.
>
> Unfortunately that dichotomy isn't as di- as it used to be.
> There are now several well-known exploits based on
> manipulation of executable code through the use of malformed
> data files, probably the best-known of which is the .gif/.png
> attack against MS Office.
>
>>Executable content in a .html file is interpreted code that is run in a
>>restrictive environment, so they're pretty much safe, too.
>
> That depends on a number of factors, not the least of which
> is the use of Active X controls as attack vectors.
>
>>.Doc files can include compiled executable content that executes on your
>>machine without any protection. That's why they are inherently dangerous.
>
> Macros aren't compiled, they're interpreted.
True, but macros aren't the only form of executable content that can be
embedded in Word files.
--
Lord Karasumaru considered it a grave mistake on the part of the gods to
have made a man like himself a nobleman. And, though a servant of the
Emperor, he saw only two paths open to him: to live in constant misery or
to spend his time carousing. The sensible choice was to rest his head
on the knees of a beautiful woman, admire the pale light of the moon,
view the cherry blossoms in season and die with a cup of sake in his hand.
- Eiji Yoshikawa, "Musashi"
flick
>
> But having careless clowns running around saying things like
> "I don't think it's anything sinister. It's a .doc file,
> not an .html" helps boost my employer's revenues and share
> value, for which I guess I thank you.
Nope. I said, basically, since it's a .doc file, not an .html, another
program has to open to read it - not most people's browser. That action may
have been what alarmed some folks.
An online .doc file is not necessarily anything sinister, just because it's
possible to make it sinister.
The only people I know who've gotten computer viruses are those who open
unsolicited email attachments, and those who've traded files between
computers without using virus checkers on each end of the transaction.
I've never met anyone who's gotten a virus by opening an online .doc file
from an online acquaintance's personal site, and I've worked with many, many
people whose job encompasses that very action.
I've also only known a couple people over the course of several decades who
got a virus they couldn't get rid of, or one that substantially damaged
their data.
Nothing is 100% safe in this regard except shutting your computer down and
never using it again.
flick 100785
Melinda Shore
flick <fl...@starband.net> wrote:
>An online .doc file is not necessarily anything sinister, just because it's
>possible to make it sinister.
This is incredibly bad risk evaluation. In formal threat
analysis what we usually do is assign a value to the
likelihood of an event and a value to the "cost" of an
event. In this case, the likelihood that there's a problem
is low but the cost of the problem, should it occur, is
high. In some cases the cost of defense is so high that
it's cheaper to just accept the risk (which is why Adam
Shostack says "amateurs study cryptography, professionals
study economics"), but this strikes me as quite clearly not
one of those cases. The "cost" of defense here is not
seeing Muttley's flier.
>I've never met anyone who's gotten a virus by opening an online .doc file
>from an online acquaintance's personal site, and I've worked with many, many
>people whose job encompasses that very action.
Me too, and when I worked for the Finnish mobile phone
behemoth the company was basically taken offline for several
days when someone brought an infected laptop to work and
sent an infected file to colleagues, and it spread like
wildfire through the company. That's actually pretty common
(I think you'd be surprised how common), although
fortunately IT departments today have a lot more experience
with this sort of thing and it's less likely to be as
disruptive as it was in the late 1990s. Still, large
enterprises are willing to spend millions of dollars a year
to protect against it because it is a serious continuing
problem.
>Nothing is 100% safe in this regard except shutting your computer down and
>never using it again.
It's really not a black-and-white situation. The best
defense is making good decisions - you can reduce your risk
to the point of negligibility by making realistic
assessments of the threat environment. Really, telling
people that there's no problem with opening a Word file from
someone they don't know shows very bad judgement.
flick
> In article <c8d9$450d6bc2$94402b1b$29...@STARBAND.NET>,
> flick <fl...@starband.net> wrote:
>>An online .doc file is not necessarily anything sinister, just because
>>it's
>>possible to make it sinister.
>
> This is incredibly bad risk evaluation.
You screwing Deb Frisch now?
> In formal threat
> analysis what we usually do is assign a value to the
> likelihood of an event and a value to the "cost" of an
> event. In this case, the likelihood that there's a problem
> is low but the cost of the problem, should it occur, is
> high. In some cases the cost of defense is so high that
> it's cheaper to just accept the risk (which is why Adam
> Shostack says "amateurs study cryptography, professionals
> study economics"), but this strikes me as quite clearly not
> one of those cases. The "cost" of defense here is not
> seeing Muttley's flier.
The "cost" of the worst case scenario here from my viewpoint is that I've
gotta go out and spend not much to replace my CPU. I don't think that's a
BFD.
> Me too, and when I worked for the Finnish mobile phone
> behemoth the company was basically taken offline for several
> days when someone brought an infected laptop to work and
> sent an infected file to colleagues, and it spread like
> wildfire through the company. That's actually pretty common
> (I think you'd be surprised how common), although
> fortunately IT departments today have a lot more experience
> with this sort of thing and it's less likely to be as
> disruptive as it was in the late 1990s. Still, large
> enterprises are willing to spend millions of dollars a year
> to protect against it because it is a serious continuing
> problem.
Cost and consequences are very different for a "Finnish mobile phone
behemoth" and my computer.
Unless you think I've got one hell of a home office goin' on.
>>Nothing is 100% safe in this regard except shutting your computer down and
>>never using it again.
>
> It's really not a black-and-white situation. The best
> defense is making good decisions - you can reduce your risk
> to the point of negligibility by making realistic
> assessments of the threat environment. Really, telling
> people that there's no problem with opening a Word file from
> someone they don't know shows very bad judgement.
Straw man again. You better spread them out or something - the point of
spontaneous combustion approaches.
I said: "I don't think it's anything sinister. It's a .doc file, not an
.html, so it's got to open a word processor so you can read it."
Explaining the action that happens when you click on a .doc file with your
browser - which action seemed to alarm someone - and my *opinion* about
whether or not it was likely to be okay.
Far cry from telling somebody there's "no problem," although that in fact
has been my experience in this particular type of instance, and the
experience of everyone I know.
YMMV, of course. It's certainly kind of you to take the time to educate
everybody else on your viewpoint on this, even if your reason for doing so
was to pick an argument with me.
flick 100785
Jeff Dege
> "Melinda Shore" <sh...@panix.com> wrote in message
> news:eej7b2$1ou$1...@panix2.panix.com...
>>
>> But having careless clowns running around saying things like
>> "I don't think it's anything sinister. It's a .doc file,
>> not an .html" helps boost my employer's revenues and share
>> value, for which I guess I thank you.
>
> Nope. I said, basically, since it's a .doc file, not an .html, another
> program has to open to read it - not most people's browser. That action may
> have been what alarmed some folks.
>
> An online .doc file is not necessarily anything sinister, just because it's
> possible to make it sinister.
>
It is, on the other hand, platform-specific.
Which means that it's appropriate only for a known audience. It is _not_
something you want to do when you're trying to reach a general audience.
--
.Sig?
Shelly
wrote:
>It started downloading something onto my computer, so I stopped that (I
>don't DL from things I'm not personally familiar with).
Security risk aside, IIRC, it's a rather large file. Not something that
those on dial-up are likely to invest time in downloading.
--
Shelly
http://www.cat-sidh.net (the Mother Ship)
http://esther.cat-sidh.net (Letters to Esther)
It is such a secret place, the land of tears.
-- Antoine de Saint-Exupery
Shelly
>FWIW, I ran without antivirus protection until last year.
>In over 25 years, I've never had a compromise in any of the
>machines for which I was responsible and I've never had a
>virus. Understand the threats, make good decisions. Oh,
>and stay on top of the facts.
It wasn't until port-sniffing viruses cropped up that I decided it was
worth messing with virus protection. Up until then, I felt that not
being a dumbass was sufficient protection. Not being a dumbass is still
a good idea, though.
--
Shelly
http://www.cat-sidh.net (the Mother Ship)
http://esther.cat-sidh.net (Letters to Esther)
You must have chaos in your heart to give birth to a dancing star.
-- Friedrich Nietzsche
Melinda Shore
Shelly <she...@cat-sidh.net> wrote:
>It wasn't until port-sniffing viruses cropped up that I decided it was
>worth messing with virus protection. Up until then, I felt that not
>being a dumbass was sufficient protection. Not being a dumbass is still
>a good idea, though.
Think of it this way: As long as there are people out there
making really awful decisions, that's who attackers are
going to target (they're easy - low-hanging fruit).
Therefore, it's probably in our best interest to have people
going around saying ".doc files? No problem!"
When my mother was here I gave her an old laptop that I had
laying around. It had BSD installed on it so I did a clean
install of Windows 2000 for her, and I went to the MS
website and installed all the pertinent service packs and
security fixes. Nevertheless, within a couple of days my
mother had managed to get that laptop infected and had
turned it into a spambot. She says she didn't open any
attachments and I tend to believe her, but she's an ardent
eBay-er and I think went to some website pointed to by an
eBay item or something like that, and got infected through a
virus that attacks IE.
[One of the eBay research scientists was at that meeting
earlier this week and gave out one of my current favorite
factoids, which is that a pound of kimchee is sold on eBay
every minute. That's a lot of kimchee.]
Paul E. Schoen
"Shelly" <she...@cat-sidh.net> wrote in message
news:vuvqg2h6sljvihthd...@4ax.com...
> On Sat, 16 Sep 2006 22:54:41 GMT, "TaraG" <tarag...@verizon.net>
> wrote:
>
>>It started downloading something onto my computer, so I stopped that (I
>>don't DL from things I'm not personally familiar with).
>
> Security risk aside, IIRC, it's a rather large file. Not something that
> those on dial-up are likely to invest time in downloading.
>
version, which is much smaller, but it loads 5 separate image files, and
the total size is about the same. Also, the doc file is better formatted
for printing. I put it on my website that way so my friends could print it
and distribute it. I would certainly not post anything malicious. I use my
real name and email addy, so it would be easy for anyone to track me down
if I did anything like that. I have been moderately careful and have not
yet had a virus infection, although I did have some very annoying spyware
until I got SpyBot.
For anyone still interested, here are three JPGs about 100K each:
www.smart.net/~pstech/Muttley02.JPG
www.smart.net/~pstech/Muttley023.JPG
www.smart.net/~pstech/Muttley025.JPG
As to his breed, he is a Mutt, probably part German Shepherd, part Chow
(purplish tongue), and possibly part Boxer and/or Pit Bull. Given that he
was found in a part of town where drugs are big business, the possibility
of some Pit Bull may be more likely. He does have a large head and powerful
jaws.
He seems to be getting better about the cat. Maybe I'll be able to keep him
after all.
Here's Photon:
www.smart.net/~pstech/Photon29.JPG
Paul
flick
>
> Think of it this way: As long as there are people out there
> making really awful decisions, that's who attackers are
> going to target (they're easy - low-hanging fruit).
> Therefore, it's probably in our best interest to have people
> going around saying ".doc files? No problem!"
Which is not what I said.
Hard habit to break, those straw men, ain't it?
flick 100785
Darla Vladschyk
wrote:
>On Sat, 16 Sep 2006 22:54:41 GMT, "TaraG" <tarag...@verizon.net>
>wrote:
>
>>It started downloading something onto my computer, so I stopped that (I
>>don't DL from things I'm not personally familiar with).
>
>Security risk aside, IIRC, it's a rather large file. Not something that
>those on dial-up are likely to invest time in downloading.
I'm sorry--- I am still confused. Do you advocate the prong collar or
the Halti for your PC?
Darla
--
"I'm still here, you bastards!"
---Papillon
http://www.yougotta.com/DARLA/
--
Jeff Dege
> It wasn't until port-sniffing viruses cropped up that I decided it was
> worth messing with virus protection. Up until then, I felt that not
> being a dumbass was sufficient protection. Not being a dumbass is still
> a good idea, though.
I've been having upwards of 11,000 failed password attempts on my sshd
port, in a single day.
(I have sshd configured so that no password attempt can ever succeed, so
I'm not really worried about it, but still - there are some very
determined people out there.)
--
When cryptography is outlawed, bayl bhgynjf jvyy unir cevinpl.
Jeff Dege
>
> Yes, it is about 1.3 MB, because of the embedded pictures. I have an HTML
> version, which is much smaller, but it loads 5 separate image files, and
> the total size is about the same. Also, the doc file is better formatted
> for printing. I put it on my website that way so my friends could print it
> and distribute it.
That's entirely appropriate. They know you, you know they have access to
Word, and nothing else matters.
But when you start to distribute it to the net in general, trying using
Word's Print-to-PDF option.
--
Windows2000 - from the people who brought you edlin.
unsurrea...@yahoo.com
Human_And_Animal_Behavior_Foren...@HotMail.Com
wrote:
> HOWEDY jeff,> news:pan.2006.09.16....@jdege.visi.com...
> > On Sat, 16 Sep 2006 09:31:45 -0400, Handsome Jack Morrison wrote:
> >
> >> On Fri, 15 Sep 2006 22:11:24 -0500, Jeff Dege <jd...@jdege.visi.com>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>>Don't listen to me. Don't listen to the clerk.
> >>>
> >>>Listen to your dog.
> >>
> >> Actually, I don't agree with that sentiment, either.
> >>
> >> He should be listening to his *trainer.* Period.
> >>
> >> What, pray tell, is he paying a trainer for, if it's not to show him
> >> how to train his dog? What kind of equipment to use? How to use it?
> >
> > Far too many trainers have fixed ideas about what effect which tools of on dogs -
>
> You mean you GOT NO METHOD, eh jeffie?
>
> You mean you EXXXPERIMENT on dogs using different PAIN TOOLS, jeffie?
Certain training tools will cause discomfort. The problem arises when
people like AssHowe don't have a clue how to use the tools. AssHowe
has no clue whatsoever how to use these tools, hence he simply calls
people dog abusers who use them.
And how can a child molester like Jerry Howe accuse anyone of anything?
I have the answer: he's insane. I mean, really - if you molested
children, could you POSSIBLY accuse others of being insane for simply
using a prong collar? Of course not.
Who's next, AssHowe? Little 7-year old Amy from down the street?
Rocky
rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
> The clerk at the store did not like the prong type collars,
> and thought they really should be outlawed. She recommended
> a "Halti" headcollar, which appears to be a combination
> collar and muzzle made of thin nylon straps. It looks like
> a pull on the strap constricts a band around the nose.
I once ran into a clerk like that at a pet store when I bought a
pinch collar. I spent a few minutes telling him stuff that he
should have already known.
If *any* training collar is to be sold in a pet supply store,
it'd be nice if the staff was knowledgeable as to their use.
--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
Rocky
rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
> As a dog trainer and behaviourist
That's neat. I have a couple of honest questions.
I run a dog daycare out of my home. Sometimes Friday, my
greeter dog, has issues with other dogs. He nibbles at their
lips. What's up?
Sometimes Rocky, my Aussie, kicks dirt and other stuff over
where he's peed. He never did this before I started my daycare.
What's up?
Human_And_Animal_Behavior_Foren...@hotmail.com
animal abusing punk thug coward active acute chronic
long term incurable mental case and illegal doggy day
care operator / agility school FRAUD an SCAM ARTIST,
"Rocky" <2d...@rocky-dog.com> wrote in message
news:Fri9841D6B1EED76au...@rocky-dog.com...
> "George Anderson" <dogg...@virgin.net> said in
> rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
>
>> As a dog trainer and behaviourist
>
> That's neat.
Ain't it, matty???
> I have a couple of honest questions.
INDEED? Any time you pathetic miserable stinkin
lyin dog abusing punk thug coward mental cases
use "honest" in a question that immediately raises
suspiciHOWESNESS.
You understand HOWE COME, don't you, matty?
> I run a dog daycare out of my home.
Yeah. You'll be gettin a VISIT from the tax man pretty soon, matty.
> Sometimes Friday, my greeter dog, has issues with other dogs.
Naaaah?
Oh? You mean LIKE THIS, matty?:
From: Rocky <2...@rocky-dog.com>
Date: 15 May 2005 16:03:05 GMT
Subject: Re: What does "bupkis" really mean
shelly said in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
> you've just described elliott. i don't think Lucy would
> have had a clue what to do with him, though. while he's
> easy and forgiving in terms of handling, i think his prey
> drive and dog aggression would've had her in tears.
Hmm. You've got a point. Rocky is dog-dominant, a surprise to
almost everyone - some of whom know him very well. I wonder
how well Lucy reads dog? If she can't, she'd get some ugly surprises.
--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
BWEEEEEEEEEEEEEAHAHAHAHHAHHAAAA!!!
> He nibbles at their lips.
That's SUBMISSIVE behaivor on accHOWENT of
you're a lyin dog abusin punk thug coward mental
case, REMEMBER matty?:
"Sometimes my "voice of god" startles human
and dog, especially when the human didn't
see the inappropriate behaviour. --Matt.
Rocky's a Dog.
"Rocky" <2...@rocky-dog.com> wrote in message
news:Xns92C1EC10BFE7au...@130.133.1.4...
Rosa Palmén wrote in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
> Anybody else got bilingual dogs?
Long ago my Hebrew was pretty good - but now I only
use "Chutza"(throat clearing 'ch') - "Out" when it's
reallyreally important that my dogs get away from something.
From: Rocky <2...@rocky-dog.com>
Date: 10 Jun 2003 18:00:45 GMT
Subject: Re: Absolutely abysmal agility day
Robin Nuttall said in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
> One of the things that frustrates me the most about agility
> is that people seem to think that ALL dogs are fragile,
> shrinking flowers who cannot be corrected in any way.
Well, maybe one day -- when Friday doesn't take correction so
much to heart -- I'll try something different. Right now, he's
just getting the confidence to work a few jumps ahead of me.
--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
> What's up?
"It is by muteness that a dog becomes
so utterly beyond value."
Like a confessor Priest?
"With him,
words play no torturing tricks.., "
--John Galsworthy.
Don't bet your dog won't tell on you...
Their behaviors reflect
HOWER words, actions and training quirks.
Jerry HOWE, The Puppy Wizard. <{} ; ~ ) >
> Sometimes Rocky, my Aussie, kicks dirt and other
> stuff over where he's peed.
Naaaah? That's an anXXXIHOWESNESS behavior, matty.
> He never did this before I started my daycare.
You mean your illegal day care, matty?
That's when Rocky RELAPSED with his SEIZURES.
REMEMBER matty?
From: Rocky (2...@rocky-dog.com)
Subject: Re: How to handle aggressive situations
Date: 2004-10-19 19:42:54 PST
Melanie L Chang said in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
> I try really hard not to yell. The times that I have, Solo
> joined in and then lunged to the end of the leash.
Or, at the other end of the spectrum, Rocky cowers,
thinking I'm angry at him - a reason I don't "yuk out"
others' dogs at agility trials or training.
--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
From: Rocky (mbon...@sunada.com)
Subject: Re: Leg Humper
Date: 1999/09/14
Bioso...@aol.com (Jerry Howe) wrote in
<37D698CF.405B0...@bellsouth.net>:
> By "sticking your knee up," I can only presume that you are
> suggesting that the people knee the dog in the chest. If
> that's what you meant, just say it, instead of beating around
> the bush to avoid criticism from people like me. That kind of
> crap has got to stop, and that's why I'm here, to help wean
> you guys off of the abuse and into the proper methods of
> dealing with behavior problems.
Jerry, I was appreciating your explanation
up until this last paragraph.
Why did you blow it?
--Matt
> What's up?
THAT'S The Puppy Wizard's SYNDROME, People!
Abuse / fear / aggression / hyperactivity / shyness / suicide
attempts AIN'T a genetic problem, it's a SPIRITUAL problem,
passed on from WON generatiHOWEN of abuser to the next, like
the 100th monkey washin fruit in the stream. After a while
it's not just NORMAL, it's OBLIGATORY.
To do otherWIZE would be DISRESPECTFUL of your parental teachins.
From: Rocky <2...@rocky-dog.com>
Date: 16 Sep 2003 03:47:41 GMT
Subject: Re: Dominant Agressive Puppy????
Nessa said in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
> the only thing I remember learning from a spanking was to
> run faster than my dad and NOT GET CAUGHT. so what does
> that say?
I learned to put a comic book down the back of my pants. And
sometimes my parents pretended not to notice. In retrospect,
that's pretty cool.
--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
"Rocky" <2...@rocky-dog.com> wrote in message
news:Xns92FE730764918au...@130.133.1.4...
> Melinda Shore wrote in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
>
> > But he's the one producing the training MATTerial.
> Ack. You just gave him some moore ammunition.
> --
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
The Puppy Wizard's SYNDROME Is the Perfect Synergy Of
Love, Pride, Desire, Shame, Greed, Ego, Fear,
Hate, Reflex, Self Will,
Arrogance, Ignorance, Predjudice, Cowardice,
Disbelief, Jealousy, Embarrassment, Embellishment,
Guilt, Anger, Hopelessness, Helplesness,
Aversion, Attraction, Inhibition, Revulsion, Repulsion,
Change, Permanence, Enlightenment, Insult, Attrition,
And
Parental / ReligiHOWES / Societal Conditioning.
YOU ARE THE CRITTER YOU WAS TRAINED.
It Is The Perfect Fusion Of The Word..., In The Physical.
There Are NO Gray Areas Between RIGHT And WRONG.
"Only The Unenlightened Speak Of
Wisdom And Right Action
As Separate, Not The Wise.
If Any Man Knows One, He Enjoys The Fruit Of Both.
The Level Which Is Reached By Wisdom
Is Attained Through Right Action As Well.
He Who Perceives That The Two Are One Knows The Truth."
"Even The Wise Man Acts In Character With His Nature,
Indeed All Creatures
Act According To Their Natures.
What Is The Use Of Compulsion Then?
The Love And Hate Which Are Aroused
By The Objects Of Sense
Arise From Nature,
DO NOT YIELD TO THEM.
They Only Obstruct The Path."-
- Bhagavad Gita, Adapted By
Krishna
With Permission From His Own FREE COPY
Of
The Simply Amazing Puppy Wizard's
100% Consistently Nearly Instantly Successful
FREE WWW Wits' End Training Method Manual
<{) ' ~ ) >
Force Training JERRYIZES Critters
And GETS THEM DEAD.
The Methods, Principles And Philosophy Of Behavior
Never Change,
Or They'd Not Be Scientific
And Could Not Obtain
Consistent, Reliable, Fast, Effective, Safe Results
For All Handler's And All Critters,
And ALL Behaviors
In ALL FIELDS And ALL UTILITIES,
ALL OVER The Whole Wild World,
NEARLY INSTANTLY,
As Taught In Your Own FREE Copy Of The Sincerely Incredibly
Freakin Insanely Simply
A-M-A-Z-I-N-G
GRAND
Puppy, Child, Pussy, Birdy And Horsey Wizard's
100% CONSISTENTLY NEARLY INSTANTLY SUCCESSFUL
FREE
WWW Wits'End Dog, Child, Kat And Horse Training Method Manual
<{} ; ~ ) >
> --
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
Here's you, you pathetic miserable stinkin lyin dog abusing mental
case:
"Rocky" <2...@rocky-dog.com> wrote in message
news:Xns92FEEC097E4AAau...@130.133.1.4...
>
> Linda wrote in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
> > When you compare using sound and
> > praise to solve a problem with using
> > shock collars, hanging, and punishment
> > how can you criticize the use of sound?
> There's nothing more to be said, then.
> You've made up your mind.
> But you've impressed me by mentioning
> that you're a professor with 30 years of
> experience.
> So, can you cite some examples of
> people recommending "shock collars,
> hanging, and punishment"?
> --
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
>
>> I do know that hitting, hurting your dog
>> will often make the dog either aggressive
>> or a fear biter, neither of which we want
>> to do.
>
> And neither does anyone else, Jerome.
> No matter what Jerry Howe states.
>
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
>
> BUT, giving you the benefit of the
> doubt, please provide a quote (an
> original quote, not from one of Jerry
> Howe's heavily edited diatribes) that
> shows a regular poster promoting or
> using an abusive form of training.
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
>
> So, can you cite some examples of
> people recommending "shock collars,
> hanging, and punishment"?
> --
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
>
> What's the point, but: Refer me to those posts of
> which you have read so many. While you're going
> through them, point out those which recommend
> shocking, and pinching, and beating. Thank you.
> --
> -Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
> Rocky wrote:
> "Deltones" <vibrov...@hotmail.com> said in
> rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
>
> > After your defense of "Limited" choking, what
> > would be the point? Where I come from, choking
> > is choking. It's never limited.
>
> So, you can't point out abuse where none occurs.
> Thank you for your contribution.
>-
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
>
From: Rocky (2...@rocky-dog.com)
Subject: Re: How to handle aggressive situations
Date: 2004-10-19 19:42:54 PST
Melanie L Chang said in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
> I try really hard not to yell. The times that I have, Solo
> joined in and then lunged to the end of the leash.
Or, at the other end of the spectrum, Rocky cowers,
thinking I'm angry at him - a reason I don't "yuk out"
others' dogs at agility trials or training.
--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
---------------
Sometimes my "voice of god" startles human
and dog, especially when the human didn't
see the inappropriate behaviour. --Matt.
Rocky's a Dog.
"Rocky" <2...@rocky-dog.com> wrote in message
news:Xns92C1EC10BFE7au...@130.133.1.4...
Rosa Palmén wrote in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
> Anybody else got bilingual dogs?
Long ago my Hebrew was pretty good - but now I only
use "Chutza"(throat clearing 'ch') - "Out" when it's
reallyreally important that my dogs get away from something.
From: Rocky <2...@rocky-dog.com>
Date: 10 Jun 2003 18:00:45 GMT
Subject: Re: Absolutely abysmal agility day
Robin Nuttall said in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
> One of the things that frustrates me the most about agility
> is that people seem to think that ALL dogs are fragile,
> shrinking flowers who cannot be corrected in any way.
Well, maybe one day -- when Friday doesn't take correction so
much to heart -- I'll try something different. Right now, he's
just getting the confidence to work a few jumps ahead of me.
--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
From: Rocky (mbon...@sunada.com)
Subject: Re: Leg Humper
Date: 1999/09/14
Bioso...@aol.com (Jerry Howe) wrote in
<37D698CF.405B0...@bellsouth.net>:
> By "sticking your knee up," I can only presume that you are
> suggesting that the people knee the dog in the chest. If
> that's what you meant, just say it, instead of beating around
> the bush to avoid criticism from people like me. That kind of
> crap has got to stop, and that's why I'm here, to help wean
> you guys off of the abuse and into the proper methods of
> dealing with behavior problems.
Jerry, I was appreciating your explanation
up until this last paragraph.
Why did you blow it?
--Matt
From: Rocky <2...@rocky-dog.com>
Date: 16 Sep 2003 03:47:41 GMT
Subject: Re: Dominant Agressive Puppy????
Nessa said in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
> the only thing I remember learning from a spanking was to
> run faster than my dad and NOT GET CAUGHT. so what does
> that say?
I learned to put a comic book down the back of my pants. And
sometimes my parents pretended not to notice. In retrospect,
that's pretty cool.
--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
"Rocky" <2...@rocky-dog.com> wrote in message
news:Xns92FE730764918au...@130.133.1.4...
> Melinda Shore wrote in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
>
> > But he's the one producing the training MATTerial.
> Ack. You just gave him some moore ammunition.
> --
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
Oh? You mean LIKE THIS, matty?:
From: Rocky <2...@rocky-dog.com>
Date: 15 May 2005 16:03:05 GMT
Subject: Re: What does "bupkis" really mean
shelly said in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
> you've just described elliott. i don't think Lucy would
> have had a clue what to do with him, though. while he's
> easy and forgiving in terms of handling, i think his prey
> drive and dog aggression would've had her in tears.
Hmm. You've got a point. Rocky is dog-dominant, a surprise to
almost everyone - some of whom know him very well. I wonder how
well Lucy reads dog? If she can't, she'd get some ugly
surprises.
--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
BWEEEEEEEEEEEEEAHAHAHAHHAHHAAAA!!!
> --
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
BWEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEAAAHAHAHAHHHAHAAA!!!
From: Rocky <2...@rocky-dog.com>
Date: 24 Mar 2005 17:16:47
Subject: Re: help with identifing a dog breed
A mature dog comfortable in its surroundings often
won't need to physically assert its dominance.
--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
From: Rocky <2...@rocky-dog.com>
Date: 22 Dec 2004 16:58:38 GMT
A Useful Dog
... Rocky, OTOH, I crate when a new dog is introduced -
while he's quick to back off in times of trouble, he's
fairly dominant. -- --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
BWEEEEEEEEEEEEEAAHAHAHHAHHAHAAAA!!!
"dallygirl" <kwic...@hotmail.com> said in
rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
> choke chains are outdated and barbaric in many cases
> causing more harm than good.
Back at you with flat buckle collars. These are an
incredibly abused training tool, what with the number
of handlers I see pulling back and jerking on the leash
with both hands.
It's a good thing that most of us are here because of dogs'
well-being and not an agenda.
--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
BWEEEEAHAHAHHAAA!!!
"Loop the lead (it's basically a GIANT nylon or leather
choke collar) over his snarly little head, and give him a
stern correction" --Janet Boss
"Reliable Punishment Cycles, Different Thresholds To Pain
And Punishment, High Tolerance For Correction, Escalation
Of Correction To A Level Where The Dog Yelps When You Punish
Him, Thus Making The Experience One Which The Dog Will Want
To Avoid In The Future," grant teeboon, RAAF.
"Well, Jack Did Hit My Dog. Actually I'd Call It
A Sharp Tap Of The Crook To The Nose. I Know Jack
Wouldn't Have Done It If He Thought Solo Couldn't
Take It. I Still Crate Him Because Otherwise I Fear
He Might Eat My Cat," melanie.
captain arthur haggerty SEZ: "A CHIN CHUCK" Makes A
ResoundingSound Distraction: "When You Chuck The Dog
The Sound Will Travel Up The Mandible To The Ears And
Give A Popping Sound To The Dog."
"Many People Have Problems Getting The Pinch
Right, Either They Do Not Pinch Enough, Or They
Have A Very Stoic Dog. Some Dogs Will Collapse
Into A Heap. About The Ear Pinch: You Must Keep
The Pressure Up," sindy "don't let the dog SCREAM"
mooreon, author of HOWER FAQ's pages on k9 web.
On 6 Feb 2006 17:41:08 GMT, Mary Healey <mhhea...@iastate.edu>,
clicked their heels and said:
> Does that include tone of voice? Some tools are easier
> to ban than others.
yes - screaming banshees are told to shut up! And I
always have to remind spouses that they may NOT do the
"honey - you're supposed to be doing it like THIS"......
--
Janet B
www.bestfriendsdogobedience.com
http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/bestfriendsobedience/album
lying frosty dahl, oakhill kennels wrote:
Get A 30"- 40" Stick.You can have a helper wield
the stick, or do it yourself. Tougher, less tractable
dogs may require you to progress to striking them
more sharply
Try pinching the ear between the metal casing and
the collar, even the buckle on the collar. Persist!
Eventually, the dog will give in
but will squeal, thrash around, and direct their
efforts to escaping the ear pinch
You can press the dog's ear with a shotshell
instead of your thumb even get a studded collar
and pinch the ear against that
Make the dog's need to stop the pinching so
urgent that resisting your will fades in importance.
CHUCK IT Under ITS Chin With That Ever Ready
Right Hand, As it catches on, try using the stick
and no ear pinch.
When the dog is digging out to beat the stick
and seems totally reliable without any ear pinch,
you are finished
If the dog drops it, chuck it solidly under the chin,
say "No! Hold!"
(stay on the ear until it does) (perhaps because
the ear is getting tender, or the dog has decided
it isn't worth it)" lying frosty dahl.
"Chin cuff absolutely does not mean slap,"
professora gingold.
terri willis, Psychoclown wrote:
"Nope. That "beating dogs with sticks" things is
something you twisted out of context, because you
are full of bizarro manure."
"Pudge Was So Soft That She Could And
Would Avoid A Simple Swat On The Rump
With A Riding Crop," lying frosty dahl,
discoverer of CANNIBALISM in Labradors.
"I Dropped The Leash, Threw My
Right Arm Over The Lab's Shoulder,
Grabbed Her Opposite Foot With My
Left Hand, Rolled Her On Her Side,
Leaned On Her, Smartly Growled Into
Her Throat And Said "GRRRR!" And
Neatly Nipped Her Ear," sinofabitch.
THAT'S sumpthin to be PR-HOWED abHOWET, eh matty?
Rocky wrote:
> "Deltones" <vibrov...@hotmail.com> said in
> rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
>
> > After your defense of "Limited" choking, what would
> > be the point? Where I come from, choking is choking.
> > It's never limited.
>
> So, you can't point out abuse where none occurs.
> Thank you for your contribution.
> --
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
>
Deltones wrote:
>
> Rocky wrote:
>
> > "Deltones" <vibrov...@hotmail.com>
>
> > > After your defense of "Limited" choking, what
> > > would be the point? Where I come from, choking
> > > is choking. It's never limited.
Not so in PROFESSIONAL WRESTLING, Deltones.
> > So, you can't point out abuse where none occurs.
> > Thank you for your contribution.
> > --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
Looks like you've pushed the mental cases over the edge again...
> Well, I think you carefully avoided quoting the last part of my post.
> You know the one about a bunch of little Colonel Parker doing Elvis's
> out of their dogs? Oh right, limited choking is not abuse, and pumping
> dogs full of drugs to make them behave ain't either in your world huh?
> For the benefit of our gentle readers, here's the part you forgot to
> quote:
?
> Oh, what the hell. Check out a thread started around Nov 23 called
> "Help with a Nuerotic Hound..." where I wonder if you guys are talking
> about dogs or Woody Allen's pharmacy. I'll stick with praises and noise
> distraction to train my dog, thank you.
>
> ----------
"J1Boss" <j1b...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040324071828...@mb-m18.aol.com...
> He was next to me and I could see his neck
> muscles pulsing. He didn't even blink an eye.
> Janet Boss
>
"sionnach" <rhyfe...@msn.com> wrote in message
news:c3qi15$2biuoh$1...@ID-45033.news.uni-berlin.de...
> "J1Boss" <j1b...@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:20040323173916...@mb-m17.aol.com...
> > > I can't imagine needing anything higher
> > > than a 5 with it, even with an insensitive
> > > dog like a Lab.
An INSENSITIVE DOG???
> > I can't remember what model of Innotek I have, but
> > I had a pointer ignore a neck-muscle-pulsing 9.
"Granted That The Dog Who Fears Retribution
Will Adore His Owner," lying "I LOVE KOEHLER"
lynn.
lyinglynn writes to a new foster care giver:
For barking in the crate - leave the leash on and
pass it through the crate door. Attach a line to
it. When he barks, use the line for a correction.-
if necessary, go to a citronella bark collar," Lynn K.
"Training is not confrontation,"Lynn K.
<except when it is>
"Unfortunately, some confrontation is necessary,
just to be able to handle the dogs. For example,
we need to crate train a dog immediately because
they are usually in need of medical care and they
are in foster homes with other dogs. It's a safety
necessity," lying "I LOVE KOEHLER" lynn.
"Training is not confrontation,"Lynn K.
<except when it is>
"So what? Whoever said that it's right to
always not confront? We sure can try, but
a dog who knows a command and growls when
given it is certainly being confrontational".
You can't simply walk away and pretend it
didn't happen or leave it for later work in
every situation." Lynn K.
--------------------
"I used to work the Kill Room as a volunteer in
one shelter.) But their ability to set their own
schedules and duties causes a great deal of
scheduling overhead.
And it takes effort and thought to ensure that
volunteers get the meaningful experience that
they work for.
Someone has to be responsible for that
Volunteer Program, and it is best done
by a non-volunteer."
Lynn K.
----------------
"I worked with one shelter where I bathed and groomed
every adoptable dog on intake. I frankly felt that the
effort/benefit equation was not balanced for some of the
older/ill poodle/terrier mixes we got in badly matted condition.
Should I have refused to groom them?
Or even more pertinent - I was one of the people who
had to make the euthanasia decisions at that shelter."
Lynn K.
----------------
I'll be you've never had to put down litters of
beautiful labrador puppies? If you had did, maybe
you'd be singing a different tune?
"Actually, have held them for the tech to euth, and
put their bodies in the trash bag and in the freezer
for the trash company to come and dispose of.
No different tune," ~Emily
~emily is a vivisectionist for a med research laboratory.
From: "Deltones" <vibrov...@hotmail.com>
Date: 2 Dec 2005 10:55:41 -0800
Subject: Re: In defense of Jerry Howe's methods
Mary Healey wrote:
> I'm still asking for 5 original posts from people here at least 5
> years to support your initial contention (NOT HURTING DOGS TO TRAIN
THEM). You're 0 for 2, so far.
That's 2 in 2 as far as I'm concerned but hey, if you insist. I'm
really curious to see what will be the justification this time. So far
we have:
Limited choking? Hey, it's limited, As
Neo would say: Woah, there is no choke.
Dogs pumped full of prozac? Hey, they're trippin
man. Remember Woodstock. Euh.... Woodwhat?
E-Collar? I'm sure some of you will come up with: But my
dog look so pretty with an electrified perm. Swoooon.
So on with the fun. Taken from the "Collars" thread,
started by Perry Templeton June 20 2005
Denis
------------
On 26 Jun 2005 10:52:42 -0700, lucyaa...@claque.net, wrote:
> What does the "choke" in the "choke chain" stand for, then?
> Lucy
one reason I call them slip collars. Their is a correction involved,
and while it causes momentary discomfort, does not choke the dog.
OTOH, it is CAPABLE fo being used to do that, should a situation
warrant it.
--
Janet B
----------
And here's another one from the same author,
taken from the same thread.
---------
167. Janet B
Jun 21, 12:03 pm show options
On Mon, 20 Jun 2005 21:40:11 +0100, "Alison"
<Ali...@XYZallofus2.fsnet.co.uk>, wrote:
> I'm just wondering why you had to use choke chains to train"your
> dogs especially as they are so small.
Oh geez - let's see - how many JRTs act like alligators at the end of
a leash? I personally prefer prong collars.
----------
Let's go for the hat trick with the same author, taken from the same
thread:
----------
141. Janet B
Jun 27, 10:01 pm
I don't use choke chains. Not quite true - I use a jeweler's hex link
on Franklin at times - it's puuuuuurty. I know the "sound" thing
and all, and when training a dog in a non-group setting, that sound
may be a factor, but I think it fails in the context of a group class.
So, I prefer the better fitting nylon slip collars, and very often,
pinch collars (small link unless it's a freaky dog, then they need
the milder medium link).
But I use e-collars too. With one of my dogs and with some clients.
For circumstances where a physical collar and leash is not the right
answer. I'm sure Lucy has no clue what THAT means!
--
Janet B
----------
HOWEDY janet,
Looks like you and your pals have gone totally INSANE again:
Janet B wrote:
> On Fri, 02 Dec 2005 14:44:14 -0500, Janet B
> <j...@bestfriendsdogobedience.com>, clicked their heels and said:
> > Since you quoted me repeatedly, where does it say I beat dogs, choke
> > dogs, scream at dogs, etc? Thanks for your clarification.
.
> responding to my own post, I had to go back and look at the original
> post, to remind myself what "we" are all accused of doing:
>
> "screaming, choking, shocking, pinching, beating the living crap
> out of your dogs"
>
> Scream? no
>
> Choke? no
>
> Shock? e-collars are a lot more sophisticated than that
>
> Pinch? if you want to classify a momentary discomfort by a prong
> collar, go ahead, but unless you have first hand experience with
> one, your opinion means nothing
>
> Beat the living crap out of? hardly - no hitting exists
"Chin CHUCK absolutely doesn't mean slap,"
professora gingold.
"BethF" <b...@NOT-SO-bad-dawgs-in-ak.com>
wrote in message
news:v4r8kkf...@corp.supernews.com...
Kyle, FWIW, i thought it was pretty funny,
and i often call my little dog the turd, because
he is one. Some folks think its HORRRIBLE i
would insult my dog like that so i guess its just a
matter of personality.
Kyle, the best way to teach him to stay away is to
step on him once. Seriously.
"Whatever Motivates The Dog, But I Daresay Most
Of The Dogs I Have In Classes Just Aren't That
Interested In Praise."
"BethF" <d...@alaska.com> wrote in message
news:uohnj3r...@corp.supernews.com...
Maybe that's what we should do - hold back the dobie
girl so that Izzy can put Simon in his place.
"After Numerous Training Classes, Behavioral
Consultations, And Hundreds Of Dollars In Vet
Bills, I Killed My Dalmatian Several Years Ago
Due To Extreme Dog-Aggressiveness," mustang sally.
"I'll bet you don't know a thing about me.
I volunteered as assistant to the euthanasia
tech at our local shelter for a while, and
I know a bit about overpopulation and unwanted
animals.
This however has nothing at all to do with
responsible breeders, because responsible
breeders don't contribute to that problem,"
Mustang Sally.
Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2001
Subject: Re: shock collars
Sally Hennessey <greyho...@ncweb.com> wrote in message
news:b8m1dtsv6vuiblo63...@4ax.com...
Aside from being incredibly offensive and self-
righteous, this post shows and absence of knowledge
in the differences in dogs' temperaments, or perhaps
a lack of ability to perceive same.
The fact that you, Alison, have never met a dog to
whom corrections and discomfort, even pain, were
unimportant does not mean that such dogs do not exist.
What it means is that you don't know as much about
dogs as you think you do, and you surely don't know
a damn thing about Harlan or anyone else's dog here.
I had a Dalmatian that would instigate fights with
one of her housemates; that dog had no fear or
anything, and pain incurred during a fight meant
nothing to her.
I know that that dog is not unique, and I'm sure many
people here can tell similar stories. The fact that
you, Alison, continue to say things to people such as
what you said to Theresa about causing her dog to
suffer (at least I guess that's what you meant by
"you cause your dog suffers" - - must be the King's
English you guys talk about over there) means that
you are an ignorant, arrogant, insensitive person
who is not worth further notice.
Sally Hennessey
"Sally Hennessey" <greyho...@ncweb.com> wrote in message
news:54nuetsqgkhp26qqv...@4ax.com...
Nope. No more than you'd convince Patch that
prongs and e-collars, in the right hands, are not
intrinsically abusive; or that dogs trained properly
with prongs or e-collars are not fearful, in pain, or
intimidated; or that any one of us here knows our
own dogs and their reactions better than someone
who has never seen them or us...hmmm.
I'm starting to see some similarities here.
Sally Hennessey
3 From: sighthounds & siberians
Date: Mon, Jun 12 2006 4:16 pm
montana wildhack wrote:
> On 2006-06-10 16:56:28 -0400, sighthounds & siberians <x...@ncweb.com> said:
> > Plus
> > she's easier to clean up when she
> I'm sorry to read that.
> Aside from the shedding, I hardly know how to act since we have one
> almost 5 year old dog with no major health issues. It's really weird.
I dream of such weirdness. Matty's death reduced the number of males
requiring belly bands for medical reasons, as well as the number of
dogs taking Previcox. But Anna's feeding routines and medications are
really expensive and time-consuming. On a good note, she stopped
eating canned food during the last bout of aspiration pneumonia (#5, I
think) and we switched her to kibble (soaked until soggy, then ground
up with a mixer until it's sort of a paste, and formed into balls).
*Much* cheaper, less messy when she inevitably coughs it all over the
vicinity and the person feeding, higher in calories, and she really
likes it, at least for now. I can't imagine what it would be like to
never chew anything crunchy again, poor dog.
Mustang Sally
"Janet Boss offered a pat on the back, commenting that
ultimately it wasn't Kate's decision. Whose was it? I asked.
Why, it was Teena's, averred Janet.
Janet was in an exculpatory frame of mind because she
contributed to this travesty herself, by advising Kate to
repeat the aggression trigger (grooming) on a daily basis.
It's all in the archives.
Now these two are spouting off about what kind of e-collars
they like to use on their dogs. Well, I've got an AC Delco
model that would be just right for Janet or Kate. BZZZZzzt!
I'd have to find it though, and I can't remember if I left
it in my underground bunker or the crawlspace under my
house," Charlie.
Here's janet's PARTNER:
"The actual quote is misleading when taken out of context"
sinofabitch writes:
> > What I have said- repeatedly - is that he
> > took posts from two different people,
> > took pieces of them out of context,
Of curse. QUOTED. You wanna see it in context?
> > cobbled them together,
No. There was WON DIRECT QUOTE.
> > then added his own words:
"Neatly," and "Smartly."
> > and a fake signature.
"sinofabitch" instead of sionnach.
> > Which is exactly what he did.
INDEEDY. That's HOWE COME you deny it.
> > The actual quote is misleading
That so?
> > when taken out of context,
We'd been talkin abHOWET beatin the dog with a shoe...
> > and Jerry's faked "quote"
The WON sinofabitch totally DENIES.
> > is downright meaningless.
Only if you're a MENTAL CASE.
Here's Jerry's version
"I Dropped The Leash, Threw My
Right Arm Over The Lab's Shoulder,
Grabbed Her Opposite Foot With My
Left Hand, Rolled Her On Her Side,
Leaned On Her, Smartly Growled Into
Her Throat And Said "GRRRR!" And
Neatly Nipped Her Ear," sinofabitch.
Here's yours:
"I dropped the leash, threw my
right arm over the Lab's shoulder,
grabbed her opposite foot with my
left hand, rolled her on her side,
leaned on her, said "GRRRR!" and
nipped her ear.
--Sara Sionnach
"The actual quote is misleading when taken out of context"
See?
"Warning: Sometimes The Corrections Will Seem
Quite Harsh And Cause You To Cringe. This Is
A Normal Reaction The First Few Times It Happens,
But You'll Get Over It." mike duforth,
author: "CourteHOWES Canine."
"I have heard advice stating that you should pre-load
your dog for Bitter Apple for it to work as efficiently
as possible. What does this mean?
When you bring home the Bitter Apple for the first time,
spray one squirt directly into the dog's mouth and walk
away. The dog won't be too thrilled with this but just
ignore him and continue your normal behavior."
--Mike Dufort
author of the zero selling book
"CourteHOWES Canines"
"Mirelle" <mirell...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1156358338.0...@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com...
>I submit that the term 'choke chain' be changed to Correctional Collar.
> When used properly it does not choke the dog. Dogs pull harder on a
> flat collar then a Correctional Collar
> when used correctly. The Correctional Collar must be in the P formation
> not the Q formation. The Q formation will choke the dog.
> The motion must be mild with a quick snap and release. This way it only
> touches the skin of the dog and the sound of the chain moving is the
> largest factor in the training to heel. As dogs are sensitive to sound.
>
> There must only be a mild snap and a quick release for it to be
> effective. The leash needs to be held correctly for this to work. It
> must be loose at all times while the dog is heeling. Only when there is
> a correction must the leash be taught for less then a second. Then
> praise when the dog heels.
>
> the term 'choke chain' is outdated as it gives the wrong impression
> that it chokes the dog. And of course it does when not put on
> correctly, or the the person using the method is using it improperly.
> So this is why I submit a new name for the name 'choke chain'.
> Correctional collar or Slip collar.
>
> Mirelle
"Marshall Dermer" <der...@alpha1.csd.uwm.edu> wrote in message
news:a3h5qn$mra$1...@uwm.edu...
> Di,
> I don't believe you mentioned a particular kind of
> training. If you are interested in training retrieval
> behavior than do consider our own Amy Dahl's:
> The 10-Minute Retriever : How to Make a Well-
> Mannered, Obedient and Enthusiastic Gun Dog
> in 10 Minutes a Day by John I. Dahl, Amy Dahl
You failed to mention your pals the dahls are
proven liars and dog abusers, professor "SCRUFF SHAKE:"
"I Would Never Advise Anyone To Slap A Dog
I Do Not Believe There Is A Single Circumstance
Ever, Where Slapping A Dog Is Anything But
Destructive," "I don't see why anyone would want
to choke or beat a dog, or how any trainer could
possibly get a good working dog by making them
unhapper, fearful, cowering, etc." sez amy lying
frosty dahl.
> just $17.95 at Amazon.com.
> (Also, it is best to killfile posts from the few
> regulars here who are either ill-tempered,
> ill-mannered, or just plain ill.)
> --Marshall
amy lying frosty dahl continues:
"On the other extreme, the really ard dogs
we have trained require much more frequent
and heavy application of pressure (PAIN j.h.)
to get the job done,
This is continued resistance to your increasing
authority, and the job is not done until it is overcome
Get A 30"- 40" Stick.You can have a helper wield
the stick, or do it yourself. Tougher, less tractable
dogs may require you to progress to striking them
more sharply
Try pinching the ear between the metal casing and
the collar, even the buckle on the collar. Persist!
Eventually, the dog will give in
but will squeal, thrash around, and direct their
efforts to escaping the ear pinch
You can press the dog's ear with a shotshell
instead of your thumb even get a studded collar
and pinch the ear against that
Make the dog's need to stop the pinching so
urgent that resisting your will fades in importance.
CHUCK IT Under ITS Chin With That Ever Ready
Right Hand, As it catches on, try using the stick
and no ear pinch.
When the dog is digging out to beat the stick
and seems totally reliable without any ear pinch,
you are finished
If the dog drops it, chuck it solidly under the chin,
say "No! Hold!"
(stay on the ear until it does) (perhaps because
the ear is getting tender, or the dog has decided
it isn't worth it)" lying frosty dahl.
"Chin cuff absolutely does not mean slap,"
professora gingold.
terri willis, Psychoclown wrote:
"Nope. That "beating dogs with sticks" things is
something you twisted out of context, because you
are full of bizarro manure."
lying frosty dahl sez she doesn't twist:
"None of my posts, prior to or subsequent to
Jerry Howe's attacks, encourage anyone to
twist ears, beat dogs, confront, intimidate,
frighten, or any of the crap he constantly
attributes to me," lying frosty dahl.
BWEEEEAHAHAHHAAA!!!
"Pudge Was So Soft That She Could And
Would Avoid A Simple Swat On The Rump
With A Riding Crop," lying frosty dahl,
discoverer of CANNIBALISM in Labradors.
Perhaps the mom dog didn't want her babies
HURT all their lives like HOWE HOWER dog
lovers PREFER to HURT THEIR DOGS?
"John ran out, grabbed Blackie by the collar, and
gave the dog two or three medium whacks on the
rump with a training stick while holding him partially
off the ground. John then told Blackie to sit, ran back
to the line and cast him back to the dummies."
The Puppy Wizard sez a mom dog eatin her babies
to SAVE THEM from a fate like that, is COMMENDABLE.
We're gonna teach folks THAT AIN'T NORMAL...
Sez on our FAQ'S pages at K9 Web you should
knee the dog in the chest, step on its toes, throw
him down by his ears and climb all over it like a
raped ape growling into his throat and bite IT on
his ears, or leash pop it on a pronged spiked pinch
choke collar or pop him in the snout with the heel
of your palm.
"Many People Have Problems Getting The Pinch
Right, Either They Do Not Pinch Enough, Or They
Have A Very Stoic Dog. Some Dogs Will Collapse
Into A Heap. About The Ear Pinch: You Must Keep
The Pressure Up," sindy "don't let the dog SCREAM"
mooreon, author of HOWER FAQ's pages on k9 web.
BWWWWEAAAHAHAHAHAAAA!!!
"Just Want To Second Jerry's Method For
Dealing With This (Destructive Separation
Anxiety). I've Suggested It To Quite A Few
Clients Now And It's Worked 'EVERY TIME
The Very First Time' - marilyn, Trainer, 33
Years Experience.
You DO remember KILLFILING MARILYN for
her coment above regarding her success with
The Puppy Wizard's Surrogate Toy Separation
Anxiety / Bed Time Calming / Submissive
Urination Technique (STSA/BTC/SUT)?
Perhaps you likeWIZE recall a pediatrician, Dr. Z,
who commented that his bed time calming technique
was quite similar?
> > You're scary Marilyn.
> > Marilyn must be quite a disturbed individual.
> > I feel very sorry for her and her family.
"His Amazing Progress Almost Makes Me Cry.
Your Method Takes Positive Training To The
Next Level And Should Really Be Used By All
Trainers Who Call Themselves Trainers. Thank
You For Helping Me Save His Life," Kay Pierce,
Professional Trainer, 30 Years Experience.
"Well, Jack Did Hit My Dog. Actually I'd Call It
A Sharp Tap Of The Crook To The Nose. I Know Jack
Wouldn't Have Done It If He Thought Solo Couldn't
Take It. I Still Crate Him Because Otherwise I Fear
He Might Eat My Cat," melanie.
"Warning: Sometimes The Corrections Will Seem
Quite Harsh And Cause You To Cringe. This Is
A Normal Reaction The First Few Times It Happens,
But You'll Get Over It." mike duforth,
author: "CourteHOWES Canine."
"I have heard advice stating that you should pre-load
your dog for Bitter Apple for it to work as efficiently
as possible. What does this mean?
When you bring home the Bitter Apple for the first time,
spray one squirt directly into the dog's mouth and walk
away. The dog won't be too thrilled with this but just
ignore him and continue your normal behavior."
--Mike Dufort
author of the zero selling book
"CourteHOWES Canines"
We're gonna teach folks THAT AIN'T NORMAL...
"Rocky" <2...@rocky-dog.com> wrote in message
news:Xns92FEEC097E4AAau...@130.133.1.4...
>
> Linda wrote in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
> > When you compare using sound and
> > praise to solve a problem with using
> > shock collars, hanging, and punishment
> > how can you criticize the use of sound?
> There's nothing more to be said, then.
> You've made up your mind.
> But you've impressed me by mentioning
> that you're a professor with 30 years of
> experience.
> So, can you cite some examples of
> people recommending "shock collars,
> hanging, and punishment"?
> --
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
>
>> I do know that hitting, hurting your dog
>> will often make the dog either aggressive
>> or a fear biter, neither of which we want
>> to do.
>
> And neither does anyone else, Jerome.
> No matter what Jerry Howe states.
>
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
>
> BUT, giving you the benefit of the
> doubt, please provide a quote (an
> original quote, not from one of Jerry
> Howe's heavily edited diatribes) that
> shows a regular poster promoting or
> using an abusive form of training.
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
>
> So, can you cite some examples of
> people recommending "shock collars,
> hanging, and punishment"?
> --
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
>
> What's the point, but: Refer me to those posts of
> which you have read so many. While you're going
> through them, point out those which recommend
> shocking, and pinching, and beating. Thank you.
> --
> -Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
> Rocky wrote:
> "Deltones" <vibrov...@hotmail.com> said in
> rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
>
> > After your defense of "Limited" choking, what
> > would be the point? Where I come from, choking
> > is choking. It's never limited.
>
> So, you can't point out abuse where none occurs.
> Thank you for your contribution.
>-
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
>
From: Rocky (2...@rocky-dog.com)
Subject: Re: How to handle aggressive situations
Date: 2004-10-19 19:42:54 PST
Melanie L Chang said in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
> I try really hard not to yell. The times that I have, Solo
> joined in and then lunged to the end of the leash.
Or, at the other end of the spectrum, Rocky cowers,
thinking I'm angry at him - a reason I don't "yuk out"
others' dogs at agility trials or training.
--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
---------------
From: Rocky <2...@rocky-dog.com>
Date: 10 Jun 2003 18:00:45 GMT
Subject: Re: Absolutely abysmal agility day
Robin Nuttall said in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
> One of the things that frustrates me the most about agility
> is that people seem to think that ALL dogs are fragile,
> shrinking flowers who cannot be corrected in any way.
Well, maybe one day -- when Friday doesn't take correction so
much to heart -- I'll try something different. Right now, he's
just getting the confidence to work a few jumps ahead of me.
--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
From: Rocky (mbon...@sunada.com)
Subject: Re: Leg Humper
Date: 1999/09/14
Bioso...@aol.com (Jerry Howe) wrote in
<37D698CF.405B0...@bellsouth.net>:
> By "sticking your knee up," I can only presume that you are
> suggesting that the people knee the dog in the chest. If
> that's what you meant, just say it, instead of beating around
> the bush to avoid criticism from people like me. That kind of
> crap has got to stop, and that's why I'm here, to help wean
> you guys off of the abuse and into the proper methods of
> dealing with behavior problems.
Jerry, I was appreciating your explanation
up until this last paragraph.
Why did you blow it?
--Matt
From: Rocky <2...@rocky-dog.com>
Date: 16 Sep 2003 03:47:41 GMT
Subject: Re: Dominant Agressive Puppy????
Nessa said in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
> the only thing I remember learning from a spanking was to
> run faster than my dad and NOT GET CAUGHT. so what does
> that say?
I learned to put a comic book down the back of my pants. And
sometimes my parents pretended not to notice. In retrospect,
that's pretty cool.
--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
"Rocky" <2...@rocky-dog.com> wrote in message
news:Xns92FE730764918au...@130.133.1.4...
> Melinda Shore wrote in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
>
> > But he's the one producing the training MATTerial.
> Ack. You just gave him some moore ammunition.
> --
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
"dallygirl" <kwic...@hotmail.com> said in
rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
> choke chains are outdated and barbaric in many cases
> causing more harm than good.
Back at you with flat buckle collars. These are an
incredibly abused training tool, what with the number
of handlers I see pulling back and jerking on the leash
with both hands.
It's a good thing that most of us are here because of dogs'
well-being and not an agenda.
--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
BWEEEEAHAHAHHAAA!!!
"Warning: Sometimes The Corrections Will
Seem Quite Harsh And Cause You To Cringe.
This Is A Normal Reaction The First Few Times
It Happens, But You'll Get Over It." mike duforth,
author: "Courteous Canine."
"Get A 30"- 40" Stick.You can have a
helper wield the stick, or do it yourself.
Tougher, less tractable dogs may require
you to progress to striking them more
sharply," lying frosty dahl, ethical breeder,
expert trainer.
"On the other extreme, the really hard dogs
we have trained require much more
frequent and heavy application of pressure
(PAIN j.h.) to get the job done,
This is continued resistance to your
increasing authority, and the job is
not done until it is overcome
"You can press the dog's ear with a
shotshell instead of your thumb even
get a studded collar and pinch the ear
against that Make the dog's need to stop
the pinching so urgent that resisting your
will fades in importance.
CHUCK IT Under ITS Chin With That Ever
Ready Right Hand, As it catches on, try
using the stick and no ear pinch.
When the dog is digging out to beat the
stick and seems totally reliable without
any ear pinch, you are finished
This is continued resistance to your
increasing authority, and the job is
not done until it is overcome"
If the dog drops it, chuck it solidly
under the chin, say "No! Hold!"
(stay on the ear until it does) (perhaps
because the ear is getting tender, or the
dog has decided it isn't worth it)" lying
frosty dahl.
You think a EXXXPERT trainer got to BEAT
a HUNTIN dog to MAKE IT HUNT?
"Pudge Was So Soft That She Could And
Would Avoid A Simple Swat On The Rump
With A Riding Crop," lying frosty dahl,
discoverer of CANNIBALISM in Labradors.
Perhaps the mom dog didn't want her babies HURT all
their lives like HOWE HOWER dog lovers PREFER to
HURT THEIR DOGS?
"John ran out, grabbed Blackie by the collar, and
gave the dog two or three medium whacks on the
rump with a training stick while holding him partially
off the ground. John then told Blackie to sit, ran back
to the line and cast him back to the dummies."
The Puppy Wizard sez a mom dog eatin her babies
to SAVE THEM from a fate like that, is COMMENDABLE.
We're gonna teach folks THAT AIN'T NORMAL.
That's INSANE. Ain't it.
"When you get bagged for lying you're MARKED
FOR LIFE," The Puppy Wizard's DADDY <{); ~ ) >
BWEEEEEEAAAHAHAHAHAHHAHAAAA!!!
"Rocky" <2...@rocky-dog.com> wrote in message
news:Xns92FEEC097E4AAau...@130.133.1.4...
>
> Linda wrote in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
> > When you compare using sound and
> > praise to solve a problem with using
> > shock collars, hanging, and punishment
> > how can you criticize the use of sound?
> There's nothing more to be said, then.
> You've made up your mind.
> But you've impressed me by mentioning
> that you're a professor with 30 years of
> experience.
> So, can you cite some examples of
> people recommending "shock collars,
> hanging, and punishment"?
> --
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
>
>> I do know that hitting, hurting your dog
>> will often make the dog either aggressive
>> or a fear biter, neither of which we want
>> to do.
>
> And neither does anyone else, Jerome.
> No matter what Jerry Howe states.
>
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
>
> BUT, giving you the benefit of the
> doubt, please provide a quote (an
> original quote, not from one of Jerry
> Howe's heavily edited diatribes) that
> shows a regular poster promoting or
> using an abusive form of training.
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
>
> So, can you cite some examples of
> people recommending "shock collars,
> hanging, and punishment"?
> --
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
>
> What's the point, but: Refer me to those posts of
> which you have read so many. While you're going
> through them, point out those which recommend
> shocking, and pinching, and beating. Thank you.
> --
> -Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
> Rocky wrote:
> "Deltones" <vibrov...@hotmail.com> said in
> rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
>
> > After your defense of "Limited" choking, what
> > would be the point? Where I come from, choking
> > is choking. It's never limited.
>
> So, you can't point out abuse where none occurs.
> Thank you for your contribution.
>-
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
>
From: Rocky (2...@rocky-dog.com)
Subject: Re: How to handle aggressive situations
Date: 2004-10-19 19:42:54 PST
Melanie L Chang said in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
> I try really hard not to yell. The times that I have, Solo
> joined in and then lunged to the end of the leash.
Or, at the other end of the spectrum, Rocky cowers,
thinking I'm angry at him - a reason I don't "yuk out"
others' dogs at agility trials or training.
--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
---------------
From: Rocky <2...@rocky-dog.com>
Date: 10 Jun 2003 18:00:45 GMT
Subject: Re: Absolutely abysmal agility day
Robin Nuttall said in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
> One of the things that frustrates me the most about agility
> is that people seem to think that ALL dogs are fragile,
> shrinking flowers who cannot be corrected in any way.
Well, maybe one day -- when Friday doesn't take correction so
much to heart -- I'll try something different. Right now, he's
just getting the confidence to work a few jumps ahead of me.
--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
From: Rocky (mbon...@sunada.com)
Subject: Re: Leg Humper
Date: 1999/09/14
Bioso...@aol.com (Jerry Howe) wrote in
<37D698CF.405B0...@bellsouth.net>:
> By "sticking your knee up," I can only presume that you are
> suggesting that the people knee the dog in the chest. If
> that's what you meant, just say it, instead of beating around
> the bush to avoid criticism from people like me. That kind of
> crap has got to stop, and that's why I'm here, to help wean
> you guys off of the abuse and into the proper methods of
> dealing with behavior problems.
Jerry, I was appreciating your explanation
up until this last paragraph.
Why did you blow it?
--Matt
From: Rocky <2...@rocky-dog.com>
Date: 16 Sep 2003 03:47:41 GMT
Subject: Re: Dominant Agressive Puppy????
Nessa said in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
> the only thing I remember learning from a spanking was to
> run faster than my dad and NOT GET CAUGHT. so what does
> that say?
I learned to put a comic book down the back of my pants. And
sometimes my parents pretended not to notice. In retrospect,
that's pretty cool.
--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
"Rocky" <2...@rocky-dog.com> wrote in message
news:Xns92FE730764918au...@130.133.1.4...
> Melinda Shore wrote in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
>
> > But he's the one producing the training MATTerial.
> Ack. You just gave him some moore ammunition.
> --
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
"Warning: Sometimes The Corrections Will Seem
Quite Harsh And Cause You To Cringe. This Is
A Normal Reaction The First Few Times It Happens,
But You'll Get Over It." mike duforth,
author: "Courteous Canine."
BWWWWEAAAHAHAHAHAAAA!!!
From: Mark Shaw (m...@bangnetcom.com)
Subject: Re: Fido-Shock
Date: 2002-04-10 14:12:18 PST
In article <gWLs8.203228$af7.101030@rwcrnsc53>,
"Coleman Brumley" <clbrum...@home.com> wrote:
> Has anyone had experience with this product (Fido-
> Shock). If so, what model number, voltage, etc.?
If you're talking about the pet-grade hotwire system,
I have one. It's to keep boarded dogs out of my flowers.
> I have a 1.5 year St Bernard who is scaling (not clearing --
> more like falling over) our 4 foot fence to visit with owners
> walking their dogs. I thought of raising the fence a foot or
> so, but don't think that'll solve the problem. I've tried
> watching her outside, and give a stern "NO" when she
> props on the fence for a peek over it. No avail.
> I've heard this product works after just a couple of tries.
I take it you're considering running the wire across the top
of the fence? I don't think I'd recommend that, although it
may be worth a try. Watch closely -- the one case where I saw
a hotwire used in this fashion caused the dog undue stress and
frustration, and he tried even harder to get over the fence.
So be prepared to take it down right away.
That was a Dane, though. With a Saint things might be
different.
--
Mark Shaw
culprit's dogs MURDERED her kat for
standin behind their SHOCK FENCE
just like HOWE liea's dog attacked
her only friend and tried to attack two
little kids for standin in her SHOCK ZONE:
From: culprit (culp...@flashmail.com)
Subject: Re: Video clip......."Nero" practicing
bark alert, while walking backwards
Date: 2004-06-05 18:53:50 PST
"micha el" <spam_yurs...@spamyourmamma.com>
wrote in message news:yIydnZpPsIz...@comcast.com...
> Anyway, contrary to your PR, this is what
> it felt like to me when I got shocked by
> Hope's collar.
> It felt like a bomb going off in my
> hand and forearm.
--------------------------------
"Tricia9999" <tricia9...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20021117101433...@mb-cg.aol.com...
>> how effective are these electronic fences in
>> keeping a dog on a property????
Some run through it. Others get shocked and become
too scared to go out in the yard anymore.
Just heard of a guy that has to rehome his dog,
because the dog got caught right in the path of
the shock and will now not go near his person,
won't go outside.
Just hides under a desk in the house.
"Rocky" <2...@rocky-dog.com> wrote in message
news:Xns92FEEC097E4AAau...@130.133.1.4...
>
> Linda wrote in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
> > When you compare using sound and
> > praise to solve a problem with using
> > shock collars, hanging, and punishment
> > how can you criticize the use of sound?
> There's nothing more to be said, then.
> You've made up your mind.
> But you've impressed me by mentioning
> that you're a professor with 30 years of
> experience.
> So, can you cite some examples of
> people recommending "shock collars,
> hanging, and punishment"?
> --
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
>
>> I do know that hitting, hurting your dog
>> will often make the dog either aggressive
>> or a fear biter, neither of which we want
>> to do.
>
> And neither does anyone else, Jerome.
> No matter what Jerry Howe states.
>
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
>
> BUT, giving you the benefit of the
> doubt, please provide a quote (an
> original quote, not from one of Jerry
> Howe's heavily edited diatribes) that
> shows a regular poster promoting or
> using an abusive form of training.
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
>
> So, can you cite some examples of
> people recommending "shock collars,
> hanging, and punishment"?
> --
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
>
> What's the point, but: Refer me to those posts of
> which you have read so many. While you're going
> through them, point out those which recommend
> shocking, and pinching, and beating. Thank you.
> --
> -Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
> Rocky wrote:
> "Deltones" <vibrov...@hotmail.com> said in
> rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
>
> > After your defense of "Limited" choking, what
> > would be the point? Where I come from, choking
> > is choking. It's never limited.
>
> So, you can't point out abuse where none occurs.
> Thank you for your contribution.
>-
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
>
From: Rocky (2...@rocky-dog.com)
Subject: Re: How to handle aggressive situations
Date: 2004-10-19 19:42:54 PST
Melanie L Chang said in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
> I try really hard not to yell. The times that I have, Solo
> joined in and then lunged to the end of the leash.
Or, at the other end of the spectrum, Rocky cowers,
thinking I'm angry at him - a reason I don't "yuk out"
others' dogs at agility trials or training.
--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
---------------
From: Rocky <2...@rocky-dog.com>
Date: 10 Jun 2003 18:00:45 GMT
Subject: Re: Absolutely abysmal agility day
Robin Nuttall said in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
> One of the things that frustrates me the most about agility
> is that people seem to think that ALL dogs are fragile,
> shrinking flowers who cannot be corrected in any way.
Well, maybe one day -- when Friday doesn't take correction so
much to heart -- I'll try something different. Right now, he's
just getting the confidence to work a few jumps ahead of me.
--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
From: Rocky (mbon...@sunada.com)
Subject: Re: Leg Humper
Date: 1999/09/14
Bioso...@aol.com (Jerry Howe) wrote in
<37D698CF.405B0...@bellsouth.net>:
> By "sticking your knee up," I can only presume that you are
> suggesting that the people knee the dog in the chest. If
> that's what you meant, just say it, instead of beating around
> the bush to avoid criticism from people like me. That kind of
> crap has got to stop, and that's why I'm here, to help wean
> you guys off of the abuse and into the proper methods of
> dealing with behavior problems.
Jerry, I was appreciating your explanation
up until this last paragraph.
Why did you blow it?
--Matt
From: Rocky <2...@rocky-dog.com>
Date: 16 Sep 2003 03:47:41 GMT
Subject: Re: Dominant Agressive Puppy????
Nessa said in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
> the only thing I remember learning from a spanking was to
> run faster than my dad and NOT GET CAUGHT. so what does
> that say?
I learned to put a comic book down the back of my pants. And
sometimes my parents pretended not to notice. In retrospect,
that's pretty cool.
--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
"Rocky" <2...@rocky-dog.com> wrote in message
news:Xns92FE730764918au...@130.133.1.4...
> Melinda Shore wrote in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
>
> > But he's the one producing the training MATTerial.
> Ack. You just gave him some moore ammunition.
> --
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
BWWWWEAAAHAHAHAHAAAA!!!
BWEEEEEEEEAAHAHAHAHHHAAAA!!!
"I'd call the SHOCK fence effective and safe.
Humane is one of those hot words that people
can debate all day so I won't touch that one.
There are people who would call a regular chain
link fence inhumane," liea altshuller.
"I know this is a hard subject to bring up without
starting the whole cruelty thread again so I'll
state my opinion once and won't defend it further:
any method can be cruel for some dogs.
Even the slightest punishment was wrong for Cubbe at
the beginning, but we've come a long way since then.
She trusts us now as I mentioned in a recent post.
Point is, she's been rewarded for coming, but she's
never been punished, even in the mildest way, for
not coming.
Is it time for that?
What might I look for to tell?"
"Julia Altshuler" <jaltshu...@comcast.net>
wrote in message news:McYnb.45145$ao4.106231@attbi_s51...
After talking with the vet yesterday and watching
Cubbe all day today, I'm convinced that the shaking
is behavioral, not physical. Naturally I'll continue
keeping an eye on her, but when I add everything
up, I don't see symptoms of anything neurological--
and the vet agrees.
--Lia
"Things are beginning to get much worse day
by day and the vets seem unable to help.
http://www.oofus.com/pix/PoorRufusMed.WMV
http://www.oofus.com/pix/PoorRufusSmall.WMV"
THAT'S AN OCD. His owner CAUSED IT by
MISHANDLING and ABUSING his dog according
to the BEST advice of HOWER Gang Of Lying
Dog Abusing Punk Thug Cowards And ACTIVE
LONG TERM INCURABLE MENTAL CASES and
ASYLUM ESCAPEES.
"Rocky" <2...@rocky-dog.com> wrote in message
news:Xns92FEEC097E4AAau...@130.133.1.4...
>
> Linda wrote in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
> > When you compare using sound and
> > praise to solve a problem with using
> > shock collars, hanging, and punishment
> > how can you criticize the use of sound?
> There's nothing more to be said, then.
> You've made up your mind.
> But you've impressed me by mentioning
> that you're a professor with 30 years of
> experience.
> So, can you cite some examples of
> people recommending "shock collars,
> hanging, and punishment"?
> --
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
>
>> I do know that hitting, hurting your dog
>> will often make the dog either aggressive
>> or a fear biter, neither of which we want
>> to do.
>
> And neither does anyone else, Jerome.
> No matter what Jerry Howe states.
>
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
>
> BUT, giving you the benefit of the
> doubt, please provide a quote (an
> original quote, not from one of Jerry
> Howe's heavily edited diatribes) that
> shows a regular poster promoting or
> using an abusive form of training.
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
>
> So, can you cite some examples of
> people recommending "shock collars,
> hanging, and punishment"?
> --
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
>
> What's the point, but: Refer me to those posts of
> which you have read so many. While you're going
> through them, point out those which recommend
> shocking, and pinching, and beating. Thank you.
> --
> -Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
> Rocky wrote:
> "Deltones" <vibrov...@hotmail.com> said in
> rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
>
> > After your defense of "Limited" choking, what
> > would be the point? Where I come from, choking
> > is choking. It's never limited.
>
> So, you can't point out abuse where none occurs.
> Thank you for your contribution.
>-
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
>
From: Rocky (2...@rocky-dog.com)
Subject: Re: How to handle aggressive situations
Date: 2004-10-19 19:42:54 PST
Melanie L Chang said in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
> I try really hard not to yell. The times that I have, Solo
> joined in and then lunged to the end of the leash.
Or, at the other end of the spectrum, Rocky cowers,
thinking I'm angry at him - a reason I don't "yuk out"
others' dogs at agility trials or training.
--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
---------------
From: Rocky <2...@rocky-dog.com>
Date: 10 Jun 2003 18:00:45 GMT
Subject: Re: Absolutely abysmal agility day
Robin Nuttall said in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
> One of the things that frustrates me the most about agility
> is that people seem to think that ALL dogs are fragile,
> shrinking flowers who cannot be corrected in any way.
Well, maybe one day -- when Friday doesn't take correction so
much to heart -- I'll try something different. Right now, he's
just getting the confidence to work a few jumps ahead of me.
--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
From: Rocky (mbon...@sunada.com)
Subject: Re: Leg Humper
Date: 1999/09/14
Bioso...@aol.com (Jerry Howe) wrote in
<37D698CF.405B0...@bellsouth.net>:
> By "sticking your knee up," I can only presume that you are
> suggesting that the people knee the dog in the chest. If
> that's what you meant, just say it, instead of beating around
> the bush to avoid criticism from people like me. That kind of
> crap has got to stop, and that's why I'm here, to help wean
> you guys off of the abuse and into the proper methods of
> dealing with behavior problems.
Jerry, I was appreciating your explanation
up until this last paragraph.
Why did you blow it?
--Matt
From: Rocky <2...@rocky-dog.com>
Date: 16 Sep 2003 03:47:41 GMT
Subject: Re: Dominant Agressive Puppy????
Nessa said in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
> the only thing I remember learning from a spanking was to
> run faster than my dad and NOT GET CAUGHT. so what does
> that say?
I learned to put a comic book down the back of my pants. And
sometimes my parents pretended not to notice. In retrospect,
that's pretty cool.
--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
"Rocky" <2...@rocky-dog.com> wrote in message
news:Xns92FE730764918au...@130.133.1.4...
> Melinda Shore wrote in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
>
> > But he's the one producing the training MATTerial.
> Ack. You just gave him some moore ammunition.
> --
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
"Warning: Sometimes The Corrections Will Seem
Quite Harsh And Cause You To Cringe. This Is
A Normal Reaction The First Few Times It Happens,
But You'll Get Over It." mike duforth,
author: "Courteous Canine."
BWWWWEAAAHAHAHAHAAAA!!!
BWEEEEEEEEAAHAHAHAHHHAAAA!!!
In this video, the dog is constantly jerking his
head all around. I'm not SHORE why he's doing that.
If he's doing it because he is being shocked repeatedly
into getting onto that skateboard, then it is my
opinion that Fred Hassen is a dog abuser in the
extreme. As would anyone be, no matter how much
"experience" they had shocking dogs, nor how
nationally "respected" they are/were.
If, HOWEver, the dog is jerking his head all around
because he is happy and for no other reason, well,
then, never mind. I've just never seen this kind of
behavior from a dog before, so maybe Fred can
explain what would cause a dog to move his head
like that.
Here's a other:
http://tinyurl.com/2v9oh
"J1Boss" <j1b...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040324071828...@mb-m18.aol.com...
> He was next to me and I could see his neck
> muscles pulsing. He didn't even blink an eye.
> Janet Boss
>
"sionnach" <rhyfe...@msn.com> wrote in message
news:c3qi15$2biuoh$1...@ID-45033.news.uni-berlin.de...
> "J1Boss" <j1b...@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:20040323173916...@mb-m17.aol.com...
> > > I can't imagine needing anything higher
> > > than a 5 with it, even with an insensitive
> > > dog like a Lab.
An INSENSITIVE DOG???
> > I can't remember what model of Innotek I have, but
> > I had a pointer ignore a neck-muscle-pulsing 9.
>
>
On 6 Feb 2006 01:19:16 -0800,
"dallygirl" <kwic...@hotmail.com>, clicked their heels and said:
> janet, yes unfortunatly i have. i joined a mother and daughter duo
> training group and i am still kicking my arse over it :( i have since
> learnt (and anyone new to dogs please take note!) they have no
> qualifications only their own experience.
What exactly does that mean?
> its because of them i am busting a gut to get qualified and to join the apdt.
"credentials" only mean something if the issuing organization is
recognized as THE authority. The American Medical Association, The
American Bar Association - things like that. There is no "whatever"
dog association that licenses dog trainers.
> i saw a massive negative difference in my dogs behaviour when on the
> lead and i didnt yank or pull i never would no matter what the
> 'trainers' said.
What exactly were you doing with the lead that caused a negative
behavior? Do you not use a lead when training? Not on city streets?
> i guess i was as distressed as my dog.
I'm pretty sure you are the only one who was distressed and you
transmitted that to your dog.
> i took a dog out of this real nasty hell hole. the lady had set her
> self up as a rescue then had about 20 dogs running free in her back
> garden and it broke down to chaos.i took out a young lab female who
> was so scared she wouldnt climb into my car and i wasnt going to force
> her so i just sat next to her but on my tail gate. the 'rescue' woman
> growled and grabbed the dog at the back of the neck and a lump of flesh
> at the rump and threw her into my car.
What on earth does that have to do with properly using a variety of
training tools? So far, you've equated using choke collars with
people who enjoy drop-kicking dogs.
>with ppl such as this working with dogs i want to show a 'better way'.
>i don't refer to them when i'm talking to the person on the street as
>'tools of horror' but i do give them some tips on a nicer way.
When 150# Cujo is trying to eat the dog net door,
what "nicer way" do you employ?
> the thing is, you put one of those around your neck, be it choke
> prong or electric and then tell me you want to keep using them.
My neck is very different from a dog's neck. I have no problem with a
choke or prong on my neck - I would respond accordingly. As far as
electric, I have had a ton of PT at times, and the electricity has
been a godsend.
>ok i am bent over ~ no pointy toes please, but form an orderly line to
>kick my arse..............i am braced :)
Nope - don't believe in kicking. But I do use a variety of collars
when training dogs. I'm not a big fan of CHAIN chokes, because I
don't find them easy to fit properly. I prefer nylon slip collars in
general, will never connect a leash to a buckle ID collar, and find
prong collars to be very, very useful training tools.
Rudy is going to start learning the e-collar this week.
I'm sure you'll NOT hear screams from across the pond.
--
Janet B
www.bestfriendsdogobedience.com
http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/bestfriendsobedience/album
"Rocky" <2...@rocky-dog.com> wrote in message
news:Xns92FEEC097E4AAau...@130.133.1.4...
>
> Linda wrote in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
> > When you compare using sound and
> > praise to solve a problem with using
> > shock collars, hanging, and punishment
> > how can you criticize the use of sound?
> There's nothing more to be said, then.
> You've made up your mind.
> But you've impressed me by mentioning
> that you're a professor with 30 years of
> experience.
> So, can you cite some examples of
> people recommending "shock collars,
> hanging, and punishment"?
> --
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
>
>> I do know that hitting, hurting your dog
>> will often make the dog either aggressive
>> or a fear biter, neither of which we want
>> to do.
>
> And neither does anyone else, Jerome.
> No matter what Jerry Howe states.
>
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
>
> BUT, giving you the benefit of the
> doubt, please provide a quote (an
> original quote, not from one of Jerry
> Howe's heavily edited diatribes) that
> shows a regular poster promoting or
> using an abusive form of training.
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
>
> So, can you cite some examples of
> people recommending "shock collars,
> hanging, and punishment"?
> --
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
>
> What's the point, but: Refer me to those posts of
> which you have read so many. While you're going
> through them, point out those which recommend
> shocking, and pinching, and beating. Thank you.
> --
> -Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
> Rocky wrote:
> "Deltones" <vibrov...@hotmail.com> said in
> rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
>
> > After your defense of "Limited" choking, what
> > would be the point? Where I come from, choking
> > is choking. It's never limited.
>
> So, you can't point out abuse where none occurs.
> Thank you for your contribution.
>-
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
>
From: Rocky (2...@rocky-dog.com)
Subject: Re: How to handle aggressive situations
Date: 2004-10-19 19:42:54 PST
Melanie L Chang said in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
> I try really hard not to yell. The times that I have, Solo
> joined in and then lunged to the end of the leash.
Or, at the other end of the spectrum, Rocky cowers,
thinking I'm angry at him - a reason I don't "yuk out"
others' dogs at agility trials or training.
--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
---------------
From: Rocky <2...@rocky-dog.com>
Date: 10 Jun 2003 18:00:45 GMT
Subject: Re: Absolutely abysmal agility day
Robin Nuttall said in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
> One of the things that frustrates me the most about agility
> is that people seem to think that ALL dogs are fragile,
> shrinking flowers who cannot be corrected in any way.
Well, maybe one day -- when Friday doesn't take correction so
much to heart -- I'll try something different. Right now, he's
just getting the confidence to work a few jumps ahead of me.
--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
From: Rocky (mbon...@sunada.com)
Subject: Re: Leg Humper
Date: 1999/09/14
Bioso...@aol.com (Jerry Howe) wrote in
<37D698CF.405B0...@bellsouth.net>:
> By "sticking your knee up," I can only presume that you are
> suggesting that the people knee the dog in the chest. If
> that's what you meant, just say it, instead of beating around
> the bush to avoid criticism from people like me. That kind of
> crap has got to stop, and that's why I'm here, to help wean
> you guys off of the abuse and into the proper methods of
> dealing with behavior problems.
Jerry, I was appreciating your explanation
up until this last paragraph.
Why did you blow it?
--Matt
From: Rocky <2...@rocky-dog.com>
Date: 16 Sep 2003 03:47:41 GMT
Subject: Re: Dominant Agressive Puppy????
Nessa said in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
> the only thing I remember learning from a spanking was to
> run faster than my dad and NOT GET CAUGHT. so what does
> that say?
I learned to put a comic book down the back of my pants. And
sometimes my parents pretended not to notice. In retrospect,
that's pretty cool.
--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
"Rocky" <2...@rocky-dog.com> wrote in message
news:Xns92FE730764918au...@130.133.1.4...
> Melinda Shore wrote in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
>
> > But he's the one producing the training MATTerial.
> Ack. You just gave him some moore ammunition.
> --
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
"Warning: Sometimes The Corrections Will Seem
Quite Harsh And Cause You To Cringe. This Is
A Normal Reaction The First Few Times It Happens,
But You'll Get Over It." mike duforth,
author: "Courteous Canine."
BWWWWEAAAHAHAHAHAAAA!!!
BWWWWEAAAHAHAHAHAAAA!!!
THAT'S sumpthin to be PR-HOWED abHOWET, eh matty?
Paxil Princess psychoclown wrote:
"Nope. That "beating dogs with sticks"
things is something you twisted out of
context, because you are full of bizarro
manure."
"Get a stick 30- or 40-inches long. You can have a helper
wield the stick, or do it yourself. Tougher, less tractable
dogs may require you to progress to striking them more
sharply.
REPEAT, VARYING HOW HARD YOU HIT THE DOG.
Now you are ready to progress to what most people think of
as force-fetching: the ear pinch.
Make the dog's need to stop the pinching so urgent that
resisting your will fades in importance.
but will squeal, thrash around, and direct their efforts to
escaping the ear pinch even get a studded collar and pinch
the ear against that if the dog still does not open its mouth,
get out the shotshell.
Try pinching the ear between the metal casing and the
collar, even the buckle on the collar.
Persist! Eventually, the dog will give in
With your hand on the collar and ear, say, 'fetch.'
Immediately tap the dog on the hindquarters with the stick.
Repeat "fetch" and pinch the ear all the way to the dummy.
You can press the dog's ear with a shotshell instead of your
thumb; Say 'fetch' while pressing the dummy against its lips
and pinching its ear," lying frosty dahl.
>> I do know that hitting, hurting your dog
>> will often make the dog either aggressive
>> or a fear biter, neither of which we want
>> to do.
>
> And neither does anyone else, Jerome.
> No matter what Jerry Howe states.
>
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
> BUT, giving you the benefit of the
> doubt, please provide a quote (an
> original quote, not from one of Jerry
> Howe's heavily edited diatribes) that
> shows a regular poster promoting or
> using an abusive form of training.
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
> So, can you cite some examples of
> people recommending "shock collars,
> hanging, and punishment"?
> --
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
BWWWWEAAAHAHAHAHAAAA!!!
"You Lying Sack Of Dung.When Have I Ever Said
Anything About Using A Prong Collar, Or Any Collar
Correction At All, To Make Dogs Friendly To House
Cats? Don't bother. The answer is never," lying "I
LOVE KOEHLER" lynn.
lying "I LOVE KOEHLER" lynn writes about kats and dogs:
"This Article Is Something We've Put Together
For SF GSD Rescue
From: Lynn Kosmakos (lkosma...@home.com)
Subject: Re: I have a dog he has cats
Date: 1999/11/20
ginge...@my-deja.com wrote:
> How can I get him to quit chasing the cats.
Okay - this is going to be a bit loooong - Lynn K.
"Put a prong collar with a six-foot leash on the dog. Don't
forget to put the muzzle on the dog. I think a prong works
better than a choke with less chance of injury to the dog in
this situation.
Electronics can be used to create an aversion to cats, but
should be used under the direction of a trainer who knows how
to instruct the owner in their proper use. Electronics can
take the form of shock, sonic or citronella collars. At that
time the owner will train with electronics instead of food or
whatever other reward system was being used."
8) Put a prong collar with a six-foot leash on the dog.
Don't forget to put the muzzle on the dog. I think a prong
works better than a choke with less chance of injury to the
dog in this situation. Have the dog in a sit-stay next to
you with most of the slack out of the leash and let the cat
walk through the room and up to the dog if it wishes (this is
why you have the dog muzzled).
If the dog makes an aggressive move towards the
cat, it must be corrected strongly with both your
voice and the collar.
This is important - the correction must be physically
very strong - not a nag. (PS: not many dogs need
to be corrected at all)."
>> I do know that hitting, hurting your dog
>> will often make the dog either aggressive
>> or a fear biter, neither of which we want
>> to do.
>
> And neither does anyone else, Jerome.
> No matter what Jerry Howe states.
>
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
> BUT, giving you the benefit of the
> doubt, please provide a quote (an
> original quote, not from one of Jerry
> Howe's heavily edited diatribes) that
> shows a regular poster promoting or
> using an abusive form of training.
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
> So, can you cite some examples of
> people recommending "shock collars,
> hanging, and punishment"?
> --
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
BWWWWEAAAHAHAHAHAAAA!!!
"I used to work the Kill Room as a volunteer in
one shelter.) But their ability to set their own
schedules and duties causes a great deal of
scheduling overhead.
And it takes effort and thought to ensure that
volunteers get the meaningful experience that
they work for.
Someone has to be responsible for that
Volunteer Program, and it is best done
by a non-volunteer."
Lynn K.
----------------
"I worked with one shelter where I bathed and groomed
every adoptable dog on intake. I frankly felt that the
effort/benefit equation was not balanced for some of the
older/ill poodle/terrier mixes we got in badly matted condition.
Should I have refused to groom them?
Or even more pertinent - I was one of the people who
had to make the euthanasia decisions at that shelter."
Lynn K.
----------------
Baghdad Bob <Baghdadbob> wrote in message
<news:04591a2c5d469ef78d35c89ed4ed58f7@TeraNews>...
Lynn, looks like he got you there if these
quotes are true.
In the posts below you take responsibility for
making those calls.
In your post above, you state you do not
make those calls.
Which one is it?
WORDS OF WISDOM
From Our Own Lynn Kosmakos
1200mg Of Lithium And 50 mg Of Zoloft
EVERY DAY
For Twenty Years
I THINK I'M QUALIFIED TO TALK ABOUT LITHIUM
"I, too, have a bi-polar mood disorder (manic-
depression) requiring 1200mg of lithium and 50
mg of Zoloft every day.
I, also, care about dogs and use this forum to
learn more, while happily sharing pertinent
information I have learned. But if I were ever
to post such sh*t, I would hope that every other
reader of this group would be rightfully outraged."
"Community is an evolutionary thing that we
earn the right to participate in by observing
the easily understood rules and contributing
to in constructive ways."
"It wasn't that meds didn't work for her
- she wouldn't take them. I particularly remember
a comment she made about scarey side effects of
Lithium. Hardly. After 17 years on it, I think
I'm qualified to say that the very low risk of
any side effect is far less frightening than the
very real dangers of life without it."
Lynn K.
-----------------------------------------
LYNN K. and LOIS E, and a BiLateral, BiPolar
conversation on Mental problems. LYNN AND LOIS
Almost 50 years on mental illness medications combined
-----------------------------------------
> But I think what Lois was referring to was
> the fact that Darlene actually stated at
> some point that she was bipolar--and, IIRC,
> that meds did not work for her--so she was
> prone to major-league ups and downs and sudden
> enthusiasms..
"It wasn't that meds didn't work for her
- she wouldn't take them. I particularly remember
a comment she made about scarey side effects of
Lithium. Hardly. After 17 years on it, I think
I'm qualified to say that the very low risk of
any side effect is far less frightening than the
very real dangers of life without it."
Lynn K.
-----------------------------------------
LYNN K. and the UNQUIET MIND
From: Lynn Kosmakos (lkosma...@home.com)
Subject: Re: Where is Darlene?
Date: 1999/09/03
BoxHill wrote:
> I know I am totally off topic here, but have
> you read "The Unquiet Mind"?
Yeah. It's interesting, but kind of
watered down for the mass market, if
you know what I mean. There's really
quite a lot of good work out there and
decent research. Thank God.
Lynn K.
---------------------------------------
MOTHER AND CHILD REUNION "KUCKOO!! CUCKOO!!!"
MOTHER (LOIS E.) 22 YEARS on TRICYCLICS, DAUGHTER BIPOLAR...
YOU DO THE MATH
"What's really terrific, is now days you can say proudly,
'I take anti-depressives'"
From: Gary & lois Edwards (g...@bmi.net)
Subject: Re: Where is Darlene?
Date: 1999/09/02
BEEN ON TRICYCLICS FOR ABOUT 22 YEARS
"I don't take lithium, but I've been on trycyclics
for about 22 years. Been there, done that, have
the t-shirt to prove it. What's really terrific,
is now days you can say proudly,
"I take anti-depressives". Back when I started
taking them it was seen as something shameful.
If you cut your leg off, and were lying there with
a bleeding stump, you'd never let the word
depressed, pass your lips, or the doc's would say,
"You're depressed, on medication? Well, can't have
any pain meds.....you could become addicted."
The good old days. I actually had a Great Aunt who's
father locked her in her room back in the twenties
because she was simple. A shame that medication
probably would have helped her live a normal life.
No Denna, I was just saying with Darlene's
personality, she has a way of making grandiose
plans when at the top of her manic cycle....as
does my daughter. I wasn't saying that anyone
with problems could be counted on to be
irresponsible."
Lois E.
-------------------------------------
"It was kind of funny, in an absurd way. The rabbit
was completely still, eyes open and glazed, dried
blood in his ears and mouth, with his back legs
stiffening quickly.
It was her pet rabbit, not a wild bunny, so
that made it much harder for her.
And he was killed by bichons.
Her dogs had torn it apart. My one student who had
shown up (another weird thing about the night) and I
had to continuously check for heart and bowel sounds
for her, until she could accept that the rabbit was dead.
(The rigor mortis in his back legs she attributed to "pain").
Full moon.
Canine Action Dog Trainer
http://www.canineaction.com
> Then she mentioned the names of her dogs,
> and I immediately remembered them.
YOUR STUDENT, leah. Like that RECENT GRADUATE
STUDENT Rottie who'd been in your SOCIALIZATION
classes since IT was ten weeks old who RECENTLY
MURDERED a little innocent DEAD DOG at the park.
> I will always remember the dogs.
Yeah. You and ed w of PET LOSS dot COIN.
From: dfrntdr...@aol.comMURK-OFF (Leah)
Date: 05 Nov 2002 00:55:40 GMT
Subject: Re: The Puppy Wizard
>"Mike E" m...@egbert.com wrote:
> My question was "Is there any legitimacy to the
> harshly-worded teachings of the Puppy Wizard?"
Any legitimate advice he gives is plagiarized from
other, more coherent sources.
Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain. :}
PetsMart Pet Trainer
See My Furry Family At:
Leah Effexor for chronic depression, in denial
about being mentally ill. Has taken
several other mentally ill medications
before settling on effexor for her chronic
mental problems. Recenly changed to
another ANTI PSYCHOTIC prescription.
"I don't think Jerry intentionally lies. I think he twists
things around in his own mind until he actually believes
what he's saying."
Jerry is the only poster here who gives dangerous
advice. Google for spike and squirt. And let's not
forget the times he's told posters whose dogs have
medical problems that his halfwits-end program could
cure them.
PetsMart Pet Trainer
My Kids, My Students, My Life
BWEEEEEEEEEEEAAAAHAHAHHAHAAAA!!!
"Rocky" <2...@rocky-dog.com> wrote in message
news:Xns92FEEC097E4AAau...@130.133.1.4...
>
> Linda wrote in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
> > When you compare using sound and
> > praise to solve a problem with using
> > shock collars, hanging, and punishment
> > how can you criticize the use of sound?
> There's nothing more to be said, then.
> You've made up your mind.
> But you've impressed me by mentioning
> that you're a professor with 30 years of
> experience.
> So, can you cite some examples of
> people recommending "shock collars,
> hanging, and punishment"?
> --
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
>
>> I do know that hitting, hurting your dog
>> will often make the dog either aggressive
>> or a fear biter, neither of which we want
>> to do.
>
> And neither does anyone else, Jerome.
> No matter what Jerry Howe states.
>
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
>
> BUT, giving you the benefit of the
> doubt, please provide a quote (an
> original quote, not from one of Jerry
> Howe's heavily edited diatribes) that
> shows a regular poster promoting or
> using an abusive form of training.
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
>
> So, can you cite some examples of
> people recommending "shock collars,
> hanging, and punishment"?
> --
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
>
> What's the point, but: Refer me to those posts of
> which you have read so many. While you're going
> through them, point out those which recommend
> shocking, and pinching, and beating. Thank you.
> --
> -Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
> Rocky wrote:
> "Deltones" <vibrov...@hotmail.com> said in
> rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
>
> > After your defense of "Limited" choking, what
> > would be the point? Where I come from, choking
> > is choking. It's never limited.
>
> So, you can't point out abuse where none occurs.
> Thank you for your contribution.
>-
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
>
From: Rocky (2...@rocky-dog.com)
Subject: Re: How to handle aggressive situations
Date: 2004-10-19 19:42:54 PST
Melanie L Chang said in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
> I try really hard not to yell. The times that I have, Solo
> joined in and then lunged to the end of the leash.
Or, at the other end of the spectrum, Rocky cowers,
thinking I'm angry at him - a reason I don't "yuk out"
others' dogs at agility trials or training.
--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
---------------
From: Rocky <2...@rocky-dog.com>
Date: 10 Jun 2003 18:00:45 GMT
Subject: Re: Absolutely abysmal agility day
Robin Nuttall said in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
> One of the things that frustrates me the most about agility
> is that people seem to think that ALL dogs are fragile,
> shrinking flowers who cannot be corrected in any way.
Well, maybe one day -- when Friday doesn't take correction so
much to heart -- I'll try something different. Right now, he's
just getting the confidence to work a few jumps ahead of me.
--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
From: Rocky (mbon...@sunada.com)
Subject: Re: Leg Humper
Date: 1999/09/14
Bioso...@aol.com (Jerry Howe) wrote in
<37D698CF.405B0...@bellsouth.net>:
> By "sticking your knee up," I can only presume that you are
> suggesting that the people knee the dog in the chest. If
> that's what you meant, just say it, instead of beating around
> the bush to avoid criticism from people like me. That kind of
> crap has got to stop, and that's why I'm here, to help wean
> you guys off of the abuse and into the proper methods of
> dealing with behavior problems.
Jerry, I was appreciating your explanation
up until this last paragraph.
Why did you blow it?
--Matt
From: Rocky <2...@rocky-dog.com>
Date: 16 Sep 2003 03:47:41 GMT
Subject: Re: Dominant Agressive Puppy????
Nessa said in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
> the only thing I remember learning from a spanking was to
> run faster than my dad and NOT GET CAUGHT. so what does
> that say?
I learned to put a comic book down the back of my pants. And
sometimes my parents pretended not to notice. In retrospect,
that's pretty cool.
--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
"Rocky" <2...@rocky-dog.com> wrote in message
news:Xns92FE730764918au...@130.133.1.4...
> Melinda Shore wrote in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
>
> > But he's the one producing the training MATTerial.
> Ack. You just gave him some moore ammunition.
> --
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
"dallygirl" <kwic...@hotmail.com> said in
rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
> choke chains are outdated and barbaric in many cases
> causing more harm than good.
Back at you with flat buckle collars. These are an
incredibly abused training tool, what with the number
of handlers I see pulling back and jerking on the leash
with both hands.
It's a good thing that most of us are here because of dogs'
well-being and not an agenda.
--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
BWEEEEAHAHAHHAAA!!!
"Warning: Sometimes The Corrections Will Seem
Quite Harsh And Cause You To Cringe. This Is
A Normal Reaction The First Few Times It Happens,
But You'll Get Over It." mike duforth,
author: "Courteous Canine."
BWWWWEAAAHAHAHAHAAAA!!!
BWWWWEAAAHAHAHAHAAAA!!!
BWEEEEEEEEEEEAAAAHAHAHHAHAAAA!!!
BWEEEEEEEEEEEEEAAAAAAHAHAHHHHAHHHAAAAA!!!
NHOWE THAT'S SUMPTHIN TO BE PR-HOWED abHOWET, eh matty?
The Amazing Puppy Wizard <{) ; ~ ) >
Damn The Descartean War of
"Nature Vs Nurture."
We Teach By HOWER Words
And Actions And GET BACK What We TAUGHT.
In The Problem Animal Behavior BUSINESS
FAILURE MEANS DEATH.
SAME SAME SAME SAME,
For The Problem Child Behavior BUSINESS.
"The day may come when the rest of the animal creation
may acquire those rights
which never could have been withholden from them
but by the hand of tyranny.
The question is not can they REASON,
nor can they TALK,
but can they SUFFER?" -
- Jeremy Bentham
All truth passes through three stages.
First, it is ridiculed.
Second, it is violently opposed.
Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.
-Arthur Schopenhauer
"Thank you for fighting the fine fight--
even tho it's a hopeless task,
in this system of things.
As long as man is ruling man,
there will be animals (and humans!)
abused and neglected. :-(
Your student," Juanita.
"If you've got them by the balls their
hearts and minds will follow,"
John Wayne.
The Insanely Freakin Simply Amazing Grand Puppy Wizard. <{} ; ~ )
>
Jerry Howe,
Director of Research,
Human And Animal Behavior
Forensic Sciences Research Laboratory,
BIOSOUND Scientific,
Director of Training,
Wits' End Dog Training
1611 24th St
Orlando, FL 32805
Phone: 1-407-425-5092
Email:
The_Insanely_Freakin_Simply...@HotMail.Com
The Incredibly Freakin Simply Amazing Grand Puppy Wizard <{TIFSAGPW}; -
) >
ANY QUESTIONS, DUMMIES?
,-._,-,
V)"(V
(_o_) Have a great day!
/ V)
(l l l) Your Puppy Wizard. <{YPW} ; ~ } >
oo-oo
Suja
"flick" <fl...@starband.net> wrote in message
>
> I've never had a prong collar fail like this.
I have. The first time it happened, it wasn't backed up, but Khan didn't
really do anything with his new found freedom, and I was able to just hook
it back on. The second time, it was backed up onto a non-slip collar.
>The ones I have, if you want
> to remove a link you've got to squeeze the prongs together with pliers and
> pull hard to get it separate.
I'll admit that I'm not the strongest person in the world and it takes some
effort for me to un-link the prongs, but I've never had to resort to pliers.
Suja
flick
news:QSwPg.22987$SZ3.14554@dukeread04...
>> to remove a link you've got to squeeze the prongs together with pliers
>> and
>> pull hard to get it separate.
>
> I'll admit that I'm not the strongest person in the world and it takes
> some
> effort for me to un-link the prongs, but I've never had to resort to
> pliers.
Then it must be my lousy hands :-(.
flick 100785
the.longest.use...@gmail.com
Todd H. wrote:
> "Paul E. Schoen" <pst...@smart.net> writes:
> > The trainer added extra links to size it properly. She connected the leash
> > also to the choke chain as a backup, fortunately.
>
> Both collars simultaneously? This seems extremely unorthodox, and in
> fact may have led to the release of the clasp.
>
>
> > Each of the links could be fairly easily squeezed and removed. It may have
> > become tangled with the choke chain to make it pop open. It opened between
> > a pair of links, not at the clip.
>
> Oh, yeah... I'm not an expert on these topics, but having 2 collars on
> at once with any training collar just seems like a recipe for
> disaster. Do you get the feeling your instructor is competent?
> --
> Todd H.
> http://www.toddh.net/
Actually, using a prong collar with a separate oversized collar such as
a choke chain is very common when working with dominant/aggressive
dogs. Reason being prong collars can pop apart if force is exerted
just right on them by a powerful dog. I don't usually use the prong
collar on my dog, but I highly recommend them as I found it
instrumental initially with my dog. Once in a while I will throw it
back on him, but if it is in public I always have a separate oversized
slip collar also attached to the leash. You don't want the second
collar to administer a correction, it is simply there so you don't lose
control of your dog in case the prong collar comes apart.
the.longest.use...@gmail.com
Melinda Shore wrote:
> In article <6615f$450c9a74$94402b1b$17...@STARBAND.NET>,
> flick <fl...@starband.net> wrote:
> >My antivirus programs scan .doc documents before allowing the word processor
> >to open them. As should everyone's. Just like it does .html files, .pdf
> >files, .wav files, etc.
>
> The number of people who don't have antivirus software on
> their computers, or have them and fail to keep the
> signatures up-to-day, is large enough that now major vendors
> like Cisco and Microsoft are selling network access control
> technologies to prevent machines whose security posture is
> deemed inadequate from being allowed onto networks.
> Insufficient technological protection against threats in
> addition to bad decision-making by users (people who are
> curious about what's in attachments and open them even
> though they know it's risky) is more common than not.
>
> In over 25 years, I've never had a compromise in any of the
> machines for which I was responsible and I've never had a
> virus. Understand the threats, make good decisions. Oh,
> and stay on top of the facts.
> Melinda Shore - Software longa, hardware brevis - sh...@panix.com
>
> Prouder than ever to be a member of the reality-based community
The average time for an unprotected system to be infected upon being
connected to the internet is approximately four and a half minutes.
You're just in the top of the class.
Nick
Handsome Jack Morrison
"the.longest.use...@gmail.com"
<the.longest.use...@gmail.com> wrote:
[]
>> Oh, yeah... I'm not an expert on these topics, but having 2 collars on
>> at once with any training collar just seems like a recipe for
>> disaster. Do you get the feeling your instructor is competent?
>> --
>> Todd H.
>> http://www.toddh.net/
>
>Actually, using a prong collar with a separate oversized collar such as
>a choke chain is very common when working with dominant/aggressive
>dogs.
No reason for an oversized collar, or a chain. One like this one will
do just fine as a backup:
http://www.leerburg.com/746.htm
--
Handsome Jack Morrison
Bad news for Melinda! First penis transplant rejected!
http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/story/0,,1874818,00.html
Finally! The WHO gets one right. DDT okay again for developing countries, Africa.
http://instapundit.com/archives/032591.php
Lancing a boil or two is messy work:
http://theanchoressonline.com/2006/09/15/benedicts-blunder-was-partly-media-enhanced/
Two words for Muslims angry at Pope Benedict:
http://bamapachyderm.com/archives/2006/09/15/message-to-muslims-angry-at-pope-benedict/
Losing Our Will to Win, by Ed Koch (a Democratic patriot):
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2006/09/losing_our_fighting_spirit.html
A very, very brave woman dies - Oriana Fallaci. R.I.P.
(read her books, while you still can)
http://michellemalkin.com/archives/005934.htm
http://pajamasmedia.com/2006/09/in_memoriam.php
The Iraqi Truth Project:
http://www.iraqitruthproject.com/
Payback's gonna be a real bitch.
http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2006/09/10/a_new_low_in_bush_hatred/
Deranged Democrat Watch
http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?entry=22450_Deranged_Democrat_Watch#comments
"Reality Based" Community Watch:
http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?entry=22395_Reality-Based_Community_Watch#comments
The "Azzam" Threat: A prelude to Future Jihad in America:
http://counterterrorismblog.org/2006/09/the_azzam_threat_a_prelude_to.php
Border War. Another must-see movie.
http://hotair.com/archives/2006/08/31/border-war/
the.longest.use...@gmail.com
George Anderson wrote:
> As a dog trainer and behaviourist I was horrified to read that you are using
> a prong collar, these things are barbaric and should be banned, if your
> trainer is recommending a prong collar I would very strongly suggest you
> find another class to attend where these things are not used or allowed.
> The headcollar is a very useful piece of equipment and if properly used will
> stop your dog pulling, your first consideration is get the right size they
> come is sizes 0 to 5. When you first put the head collar on the dog will
> probably not like it so just put on for a few minutes and give him some
> tasty treats and do this each time you put in on him so that he sees the
> head collar with nice things. When you start to walk him with it on, have
> him on your left side and hold the lead in your right hand, when he starts
> to pull, gently pull his head round towards you, this will bring his whole
> body round which stops him pulling, practice with this and he will soon stop
> pulling.
>
>
> George Anderson
> dogg...@virgin.net
> When a dog wags it's tail and barks at the same time,
> it is the bark you should heed.
>
Interesting, I feel the use of a headcollar on a dog is barbaric.
Perhaps it would interest you to know the potential for spinal damage
from a headcollar. Dog necks are not designed to have forces exerted
at their nose in the direction the headcollar typically results in.
You can go ahead an use them for all I care, but I've tried multiple
sizes on several dogs, and none of them acheived any sense of comfort
while wearing them. As opposed to with a prong collar they very rarely
received a correction once they progressed past the initial training
with the collar.
the.longest.use...@gmail.com
Handsome Jack Morrison wrote:
> On 18 Sep 2006 08:46:52 -0700,
> "the.longest.use...@gmail.com"
> <the.longest.use...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> []
> >> Oh, yeah... I'm not an expert on these topics, but having 2 collars on
> >> at once with any training collar just seems like a recipe for
> >> disaster. Do you get the feeling your instructor is competent?
> >> --
> >> Todd H.
> >> http://www.toddh.net/
> >
> >Actually, using a prong collar with a separate oversized collar such as
> >a choke chain is very common when working with dominant/aggressive
> >dogs.
>
> No reason for an oversized collar, or a chain. One like this one will
> do just fine as a backup:
>
> http://www.leerburg.com/746.htm
>
>
> --
> Handsome Jack Morrison
>
That is actually the exact collar I use as a backup. I just say
oversized because that way it is understood that the dog does not get a
correction from the backup collar. I typically solely use that collar
when working with my dog, as almost all of my corrections come in a
verbal form now.
Handsome Jack Morrison
"the.longest.use...@gmail.com"
<the.longest.use...@gmail.com> wrote:
[]
>> >> Oh, yeah... I'm not an expert on these topics, but having 2 collars on
>> >> at once with any training collar just seems like a recipe for
>> >> disaster. Do you get the feeling your instructor is competent?
>> >> --
>> >> Todd H.
>> >> http://www.toddh.net/
>> >
>> >Actually, using a prong collar with a separate oversized collar such as
>> >a choke chain is very common when working with dominant/aggressive
>> >dogs.
>>
>> No reason for an oversized collar, or a chain. One like this one will
>> do just fine as a backup:
>>
>> http://www.leerburg.com/746.htm
>That is actually the exact collar I use as a backup. I just say
>oversized because that way it is understood that the dog does not get a
>correction from the backup collar.
If both collars are fitted properly, that shouldn't be a problem. An
"oversized" backup will only make it harder to correct the dog
properly, if and when the prong collar flies open.
>I typically solely use that collar
>when working with my dog, as almost all of my corrections come in a
>verbal form now.
That's the objective, of course, but with some dogs it's better to be
safe than sorry.
Sionnach
"Todd H." writes:
> Has your dog ever whelped from a correction on the pinch collar?
Prong collars can be useful tools, but they don't perform miracles... which
would include causing a neutered male dog to give birth.
Janet B
<pst...@smart.net>, clicked their heels and said:
> My
>decision will be based on any input from here, as well as how Muttley seems
>to react, and finally also the thoughts of the instructors.
I personally don't like them, mainly because many dogs really hate
them. As far as humane, that's the answer you'll get from PM (but
note that they SELL prong collars anyway). They can work well for
some dogs, but are much more of a MANAGEMENT tool than a training
tool. They can also be rather dangerous, and IMO are inhumane for
dogs who sut down on them.
--
Janet Boss
www.bestfriendsdogobedience.com
Janet B
<handsomeja...@gmail.com>, clicked their heels and said:
>
>What, pray tell, is he paying a trainer for,
he's not. Maybe the problem with free offers - people don't take the
advice seriously?
> if it's not to show him
>how to train his dog? What kind of equipment to use? How to use it?
yup. I'll go see Paul tomorrow evening.
>I think Janet (as his trainer, I presume) should get control of
>Muttley's *owner* first, before worrying about ol' Muttley.
I'm not teaching his class unfortunately (Paul, you can switch to
Mondays if you prefer). I really need to see Muttley around other
dogs, and Paul's handling of him.
--
Janet Boss
www.bestfriendsdogobedience.com
Sionnach
"elegy" wrote:
> i've only had a pinch collar fail once,
I've had one BREAK, and it wasn't a cheap one, either; the ring the leash
was attached to pulled out straight. I suspect the maker ASSumed that any
dog small enough to need a micro-prong wouldn't have significant strength.
Sionnach
"George Anderson" <dogg...@virgin.net> wrote in message
news:2KUOg.29800$G72....@newsfe3-gui.ntli.net...
> As a dog trainer and behaviourist I was horrified to read that you are
> using
> a prong collar, these things are barbaric and should be banned,
<shrug> My extraordinarily sensitive lurcher - she can be likened to the
princes in "The Princess and The Pea" - begs to differ with you. She found a
prong collar to be No Big Deal, and a head collar to be an instrument of
torture.
I'll take my dog's word over that of a stranger on USENET, any day.
For that matter, I'll take the word of reputable vets and veterinary
chiropracters as regards the physical injuries that even PROPER use of a
head collar can and does cause.
Janet B
<pst...@smart.net>, clicked their heels and said:
>He did not really resist my slipping it over his neck.
WHAT?!?!?!? It's totally missized if you can do that - PLEASE do not
do that.
--
Janet Boss
www.bestfriendsdogobedience.com
Sionnach
"Melinda Shore" wrote:
> she's an ardent
> eBay-er and I think went to some website pointed to by an
> eBay item or something like that, and got infected through a
> virus that attacks IE.
I'd be inclined to suspect that she got phished; I get 3-5 e-mails a day
which purport to be either from eBay or from an eBay seller or buyer, some
of which look very authentic.
The most common ones running around at the moment are fake eBay messages
either saying you've been given money for an item, or that you haven't paid
for an item you won - even fairly savvy people can get fooled into trying to
reply that they've been contacted by mistake.
Handsome Jack Morrison
<ja...@bestfriendsdogobedience.com> wrote:
>On Sat, 16 Sep 2006 09:31:45 -0400, Handsome Jack Morrison
><handsomeja...@gmail.com>, clicked their heels and said:
>
>>
>>What, pray tell, is he paying a trainer for,
>
>he's not. Maybe the problem with free offers - people don't take the
>advice seriously?
Oh, I forgot.
<sigh>
>> if it's not to show him
>>how to train his dog? What kind of equipment to use? How to use it?
>
>yup. I'll go see Paul tomorrow evening.
Yabbut, the lady who sells dog food for a living will have already
shown him everything he needs to know, dontcha know.
>>I think Janet (as his trainer, I presume) should get control of
>>Muttley's *owner* first, before worrying about ol' Muttley.
>
>I'm not teaching his class unfortunately
Yes, that is unfortunate.
<sigh>
Janet B
<handsomeja...@gmail.com>, clicked their heels and said:
>
>>I'm not teaching his class unfortunately
>
>Yes, that is unfortunate.
>
><sigh>
I'm trying to remedy that, one way or another.
--
Janet Boss
www.bestfriendsdogobedience.com
Paul
large prong collar seems to work OK, now that I have removed two links
and put it on him properly. However, the first night's initial apparent
success may have been because he was tired and mellow after a full day
with Doyle, and getting back home. Now he seems to be quite happy to
pull on it to the point where he is gasping, at least on the first part
of his walk. He settles down after he has sniffed out the scents of the
squirrels, deer, cat, and whatever, and will more readily walk with a
fairly loose leash, and even heel a bit.
It seems like now the prong collar may not be fully effective because
it presses on his wide nylon tag collar, and maybe also gets tangled in
the choker chain, although I do not have it connected to the leash. The
bigger prong collar seems robust enough to hold him without coming
undone, but I'd feel better with a backup. Maybe it would be better to
use a nylon slip collar as a backup, and remove all others when
training.
Hopefully all this can be worked out at the class tomorrow night (it
probably just seemed like 20 dogs). I am willing to listen to
suggestions from all, and this discussion has been interesting and
helpful, but also shows that there are diverse views. I will primarily
try to use Janet's suggestions, as she has been kind enough to offer
her services to help Muttley be more adoptable.
Actually, he and Photon may finally be getting used to each other. I
was able to pet her for a little while when she emerged from hiding, at
the same time petting Muttley and keeping a hand on his collar (not
easy with only two hands), and he was quick to settle down after she
ran off. I can probably work out a way for them to coexist safely. If
Muttley's only fault is straining on the leash, I can probably live
with that, although I'm sure most of that will be corrected by
training. It actually makes it easier for me to make it up the steep
trail on my property. Maybe I'll just get him a harness and I'll ride
behind him in a goat cart! :)
Paul
pfoley
"Paul" <pst...@smart.net> wrote in message
news:1158619313.4...@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
I would think the choke chain would be in the way of the prong collar all
the time and thus preventing the prong collar to work correctly. I don't
understand why you need the choke chain; I used to just use my dog's regular
collar along with the prong collar and made sure the prong collar was above
the top of the collar; not on it or below it. Don't hesitate to speak up
and ask the trainer questions; sometimes they have so many people in their
classes, you can easily get ignored.
>
Paul E. Schoen
"Sionnach" <rhyf...@msn.com> wrote in message
news:4n8739F...@individual.net...
(From a list of real responses of Catholic school kids)
Paul
the.longest.use...@gmail.com
If I was going to use a choke chain as a backup it wouldn't get tangled
in the prong collar. The prong collar should fit snug enough that it
rides at the top of his neck near his head. Choke chains, because of
how they are slid over their head should ride lower than that naturally
and not get tangled. As for the license collar, I would either have a
loose one that rides low down with the choke chain or take it off and
carry it in my pocket while training. I use a loose license collar
that I can tighten if I am using it for restraint so he can not pull
out of it as easily. Here is a good website that shows how to properly
fit a prong collar including pictures as well as pictures of using a
nylon slip collar as a backup.
http://www.leerburg.com/fit-prong.htm
Nick
the.longest.use...@gmail.com
the.longest.use...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> If I was going to use a choke chain as a backup it wouldn't get tangled
> in the prong collar. The prong collar should fit snug enough that it
> rides at the top of his neck near his head. Choke chains, because of
> how they are slid over their head should ride lower than that naturally
> and not get tangled. As for the license collar, I would either have a
> loose one that rides low down with the choke chain or take it off and
> carry it in my pocket while training. I use a loose license collar
> that I can tighten if I am using it for restraint so he can not pull
> out of it as easily. Here is a good website that shows how to properly
> fit a prong collar including pictures as well as pictures of using a
> nylon slip collar as a backup.
> http://www.leerburg.com/fit-prong.htm
>
> Nick
Oh, and his recommendation to use a remote collar at the bottom of that
page... that is for a specific dog with specific circumstances. He
does not recommend them for all dogs, in fact he typically recommends
the prong collar. Just thought I would point that out in case someone
who didn't know read the entire page, because I could see how they
would interpret that he would use an e-collar on every dog.
Nick
Janet B
"the.longest.use...@gmail.com"
<the.longest.use...@gmail.com>, clicked their heels and
said:
> Here is a good website that shows how to properly
>fit a prong collar including pictures as well as pictures of using a
>nylon slip collar as a backup.
>http://www.leerburg.com/fit-prong.htm
never fear. I will fit the collars appropriately, this evening. Paul
- bring the small link prong with you please.
--
Janet Boss
www.bestfriendsdogobedience.com
the.longest.use...@gmail.com
I figured you would in this case, but I posted it for those who do not
have your services to show them the way. Although life would be better
if everyone had a good trainer to show them the way, not everyone will
go that route.
Nick
Handsome Jack Morrison
"the.longest.use...@gmail.com"
<the.longest.use...@gmail.com> wrote:
>Although life would be better
>if everyone had a good trainer to show them the way...
...and actually listened to her.
You know, instead of listening to people who sell dog food for a
living.
pfoley
<the.longest.use...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1158674149....@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
======
Well, in my case, the trainer wanted me to have an attachment going from the
leash to the license collar as a backup, so I needed the the collar along
with the prong collar. They don't like you to have the dog without its
license collar on in case it gets loose.
>
pfoley
<the.longest.use...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1158675135....@d34g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
Thanks, I found that very interesting.
>
the.longest.use...@gmail.com
> ======
> Well, in my case, the trainer wanted me to have an attachment going from the
> leash to the license collar as a backup, so I needed the the collar along
> with the prong collar. They don't like you to have the dog without its
> license collar on in case it gets loose.
>
I see how the attachment would work, and I agree with it as an
acceptable backup. It is just my opinion it complicates the matter
more than is needed. But I would still loosen the collar while
training so that it rides underneath the prong or else it will most
likely cause issues with the prong, preventing it from working
correctly. I understand why trainers wouldn't want a loose dog without
it's license on, but it seems to me if you properly fit the prong
collar and use a backup you won't end up with a dog getting loose. But
hey, whatever your trainer says, that is what you should do. I only
work with a trainer for desensitizing my dog agressive dog, as well as
for heavy distractions while working my obedience program with him so
for the most part I do what I believe is best for my dog, although I do
consult with trainers whose opinions I consider worthwile.
Mighty Mite
Paul E. Schoen wrote:
> I was recommended to try a small pinch prong collar at Muttley's first
> obedience class, and it seemed to work better than just the choker chain
> collar, but it was still an effort to control him and keep him focused on
> me and the commands he was given. Also, he managed to make it pop open and
> it had to be refastened.
>
> This evening I bought a larger pinch prong collar, which is made of heavier
> gauge metal, and also the prongs are very smoothly rounded, which I think
> should pose less chance of damage than the more roughly cut ends of the
> smaller collar. I plan to try it on him when I pick him up from a friend
> who has been keeping him while I've been out of town.
>
> The clerk at the store did not like the prong type collars, and thought
> they really should be outlawed. She recommended a "Halti" headcollar, which
> appears to be a combination collar and muzzle made of thin nylon straps. It
> looks like a pull on the strap constricts a band around the nose. It is
> labeled as an "improved design" by Dr. Roger Mugford.
>
> I plan to try each of these for a brief time to see how they work on
> Muttley. Then I can take them to the training class on Tuesday to have the
> instructors evaluate them as well, and I can choose what may have the best
> chance for success.
>
> If anyone has any experience with these collars, please let me know. My
> decision will be based on any input from here, as well as how Muttley seems
> do what is best for the dog, and provide him the best possible training for
> future adoption.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Paul
It's funny but the "halti" and "prong" collars both have their "camps"
and each promotes their own training aid of choice as the more "human"
method. Suzanne Clothier wrote an article on the net about how she
will not use a halti because of the dangers of snapping a dog's neck
back but favors prong collars because they are, in her opinion, kinder
than chokes. A few years ago, The Whole Dog Journal came out with an
article advocating the use of a sensor harness instead of a halti
(while I went to a seminar by famed sports Vet Dr. Chris Zinc who is
very much against the use of these harnesses!). To be perfectly
honest, regardless of the method you use, your dog should learn to heel
WITHOUT ANY COLLAR. That's the mark of a dog who is truly trained. I
taught my dog to heel using a target stick similar to what Wilkes uses.
I invite you to check out the Mighty Mite Small Dog Sports Forum -
we've discussed these related issues at length:
TaraG
"Mighty Mite" <Re...@mightymitedoggear.com> wrote in message
news:1160712962.5...@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
> It's funny but the "halti" and "prong" collars both have their "camps"
> and each promotes their own training aid of choice as the more "human"
> method.
I have, at one point or another, been in each camp. Now I feel they both
have their place. I also feel that place is a lot more limited (for *both*
pieces of equipment) than I used to.
> Suzanne Clothier wrote an article on the net about how she
> will not use a halti because of the dangers of snapping a dog's neck
> back but favors prong collars because they are, in her opinion, kinder
> than chokes. A few years ago, The Whole Dog Journal came out with an
> article advocating the use of a sensor harness instead of a halti
> (while I went to a seminar by famed sports Vet Dr. Chris Zinc who is
> very much against the use of these harnesses!).
After seeing this post, I googled Chris Zinc and harness, and only got one
hit that referred to the same opinion, but also in the third person without
any sensible explanation as to why. Could you elaborate on this? I've been
using these harnesses for a coupleof years now, and while they're not
appropriate for all dogs, they work pretty well, IMO.
> To be perfectly
> honest, regardless of the method you use, your dog should learn to heel
> WITHOUT ANY COLLAR. That's the mark of a dog who is truly trained.
Of course it is. But note the tense "ed" as in "already trained". Getting
there (as in "my dog is in trainING") is what collars and leads are for.
> I
> taught my dog to heel using a target stick similar to what Wilkes uses.
> I invite you to check out the Mighty Mite Small Dog Sports Forum -
> we've discussed these related issues at length:
Great. If you have a way to apply that sort of thing to dogs that live in
NYC please let me in on it :-)
Tara
Melinda Shore
Mighty Mite <Re...@mightymitedoggear.com> wrote:
>(while I went to a seminar by famed sports Vet Dr. Chris Zinc who is
^
Zink -----------------------------------------------------|
>To be perfectly
>honest, regardless of the method you use, your dog should learn to heel
>WITHOUT ANY COLLAR.
The topic at hand (oh, that) was controlling Muttley.
--
Melinda Shore - Software longa, hardware brevis - sh...@panix.com
Prouder than ever to be a member of the reality-based community
flick
news:1160712962.5...@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
>
>
> and each promotes their own training aid of choice as the more "human"
> method. Suzanne Clothier wrote an article on the net about how she
> will not use a halti because of the dangers of snapping a dog's neck
> back but favors prong collars because they are, in her opinion, kinder
> than chokes. A few years ago, The Whole Dog Journal came out with an
> article advocating the use of a sensor harness instead of a halti
> (while I went to a seminar by famed sports Vet Dr. Chris Zinc who is
> very much against the use of these harnesses!).
What is a sensor harness?
flick 100785
n briggs
Leader?
I use one and find it in no way abusive--but like anything else you have to
use it correctly. When you buy one it should come with a DVD on its proper
use. It is not intended for jerking--you are supposed to just pull up gently
when the dog trys to pull etc--gently being the operative word--then relax
the tension immediately. Tension means no--relaxed me good dog--I have used
it on not only my puppy--but on rescue dogs and the quality of the walk is
noticable immediately. Dogs really need walked for lots of reasons, so if it
takes a GL to be able to accomplish this I am fine with it. It is also a
wonderful tool to teach 'sit' on a stubborn dog.
That being said--I migh be having a harder time training because a. my own
dog is only 5 months and b.the other dogs I work with are rescues and I
foster them untill we find homes, typically abandoned dogs- though mostly
sweet--are often not at their personal best. Some have lots of learning to
do--after abuse/neglect to be able to live in a home again. If the GL can
help them--I am fine with it.
In fact I just had a discussion with my trainer this week about the GL-one
of the biggest mistakes I was making was taking it off my girl. Dogs become
'leash smart' and know that when a certian collar is applied how they are
supposed to act---if I would leave it on her more--then she would become
habituated to it-then I could start to teach her to walk nice without the
use of the GL.
I agree that the mark of a well trained dog is one that will heel with no
leash--but the hard part is getting them to heel in the first place--besides
most places have leash laws, so the dog is just going to have to learn to be
sweet on the leash.
No matter what method you use it requires lots of practice and patience.
Good luck!
shelly
> I am assuming (yes I know what that acronym means) you mean the Gentle
> Leader?
I believe the question was about the Sense-ation harness.
http://www.softouchconcepts.com/
> I use one and find it in no way abusive--but like anything else you have to
> use it correctly.
I prefer to let my dog decide if a tool is abusive. A GL would be
pointless on my current dog, but I tried one on my previous dog, and
he was quite clear in communicating to me that *he* thought it was
an instrument of torture.
> When you buy one it should come with a DVD on its proper
> use. It is not intended for jerking--you are supposed to just pull up gently
> when the dog trys to pull etc--gently being the operative word--then relax
> the tension immediately.
Dogs, being living creatures with brains, occasionally have their
own agendas. My problem with the GL is that if a dog wearing one
*does* lunge after something, it can be harmed.
> I agree that the mark of a well trained dog is one that will heel with no
> leash--but the hard part is getting them to heel in the first place--besides
> most places have leash laws, so the dog is just going to have to learn to be
> sweet on the leash.
I'm not advocating not teaching leash manners (not exactly the same
thing as heeling, but what the heck), but I really can't see that
off-lead heeling is *the* "mark of a well trained dog."
--
Shelly (Warning: see label for details)
http://www.cat-sidh.net (the Mother Ship)
http://esther.cat-sidh.net (Letters to Esther)
shelly
> in thread news:4p9kc9F...@individual.net: shelly
> <she...@cat-sidh.net> whittled the following words:
>
>
>>I'm not advocating not teaching leash manners (not exactly the same
>>thing as heeling, but what the heck), but I really can't see that
>>off-lead heeling is *the* "mark of a well trained dog."
>>
>
>
I don't think there is any single behavior that is *the* mark of a
bet...@aol.com
TaraG wrote:
> "Mighty Mite" <Re...@mightymitedoggear.com> wrote in message
> news:1160712962.5...@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
>
> > It's funny but the "halti" and "prong" collars both have their "camps"
> > and each promotes their own training aid of choice as the more "human"
> > method.
>
> have their place. I also feel that place is a lot more limited (for *both*
> pieces of equipment) than I used to.
Tara and I have pretty different training styles but we both agree on
that.
<more snippage>
> After seeing this post, I googled Chris Zinc and harness, and only got one
> hit that referred to the same opinion, but also in the third person without
> any sensible explanation as to why. Could you elaborate on this? I've been
> using these harnesses for a coupleof years now, and while they're not
> appropriate for all dogs, they work pretty well, IMO.
I've seen the harnesses used and misused. They seem to fill a need for
some dog owners. I've never had to use one and since I track with my
dogs, probably never would.
<snip>
>
> Of course it is. But note the tense "ed" as in "already trained". Getting
> there (as in "my dog is in trainING") is what collars and leads are for.
Amen to that sister.
Beth
> Tara
Mary Healey
news:MJMXg.80646$5o5....@tornado.texas.rr.com:
> I am assuming (yes I know what that acronym means) you mean the Gentle
> Leader?
>
> I use one and find it in no way abusive--but like anything else you
> have to use it correctly.
Installed as per instructions, it depresses my dog so much he can barely
lift his head off the floor. The effect persists for some time after the
collar is removed. If I had a younger, bouncier dog, this dampening effect
might be useful, but as it stands, I'd rather not go there. I demonstrate
a number of collars on this dog, but I think I'll skip the Gentle
Leader/Halti demo from now on.
Rocky
> I prefer to let my dog decide if a tool is abusive. A GL
> would be pointless on my current dog, but I tried one on my
> previous dog, and he was quite clear in communicating to me
> that *he* thought it was an instrument of torture.
The crazy strong untrained silver Lab that comes here once a
week?
The owner asked me about all sorts of training tools, but only
brought up harnesses - Halti, Gentle Leader, Sensation. I gave
him some pros and cons, told him that I'd show him how to fit
them, but that he should also consider a prong (which, IMO,
would be the best for this dog). For the time being, I think
he's going to try either the Sensation or GL first, which is
fine. Meanwhile, I'll try to find my prong collar so that I can
give him a demo and show him that they're not evil at all, like
the trainer he went to must have told him.
--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
shelly
> The owner asked me about all sorts of training tools, but only
> brought up harnesses - Halti, Gentle Leader, Sensation. I gave
> him some pros and cons, told him that I'd show him how to fit
> them, but that he should also consider a prong (which, IMO,
> would be the best for this dog).
Is he just wearing a buckle collar right now? I imagine walking him
is some kind of an adventure.
> For the time being, I think
> he's going to try either the Sensation or GL first, which is
> fine. Meanwhile, I'll try to find my prong collar so that I can
> give him a demo and show him that they're not evil at all, like
> the trainer he went to must have told him.
Sounds reasonable to me! (Well, not the "Prongs are inherently
eeevil" BS.)