education about equipment
Janet B
e-collars. Many of my feelings about them are still the same - not
for every person and dog; needs to be taught, not just turned up to
high and pushed; prefer to not use one as much as possible - not
beacuse of cruelty or pain, but because I don't want to carry "stuff"
(which, as I stated them, includes clickers, food, etc).
OTOH, I'm glad I've read, watched, learned. Some of my impressions
and assumptions were not on target. My use of one has been a really
good thing, for both myself and my dog. It has allowed for more
freedom and enjoyment of something he truly loves, but needed to learn
to play by the rules, and accomplished such in the most humane and
stressless way.
I still don't buy into the Fred Hassen "no limitations" gig. I know
dog owners are inherently lazy and look for the easy push-button
answer. Can a lot be accomplished, fairly easily and with low stress
to the dog, by use of an e-collar? You bet. Do I think they should
be used for every dog, for "average" response? Not even close. Most
dog owners aren't striving for as much reliability as one may gain
using the collar. The collar isn't a practical tool for many other
applications - either being superfluous or just plain unnecessary.
I'm glad I reminded myself of some of my close-minded ideas, and glad
that I'm a confident enough person to allow myself to open my mind and
learn. Sure wish others could undertand what that really means.
--
Janet B
www.bestfriendsdogobedience.com
http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/bestfriendsobedience/album
Janet B
<handsomeja...@thedetonatorearthlink.net>, clicked their heels
and said:
>On Thu, 09 Feb 2006 09:06:10 -0500, Janet B
><ja...@bestfriendsdogobedience.com> wrote:
>
>>I still don't buy into the Fred Hassen "no limitations" gig.
>
>For example?
Besides the fact that he reminds me of a used car salesman, I just
don't think that the best way to train, for every dog, is with the
e-collar. I think it's a very versatile tool, but don't think every
new puppy should come with one.
There have also been some (well witnessed) recollections of some of
his seminars, with some poor use of the collar, and his reaction makes
me queasy. I like fairness.
Janet B
>>Besides the fact that he reminds me of a used car salesman,
>
>Why???
He points to his website a lot and doesn't actually enter into
training discussion. He's all about self-promotion. More power to
him in many ways, but still.
>>There have also been some (well witnessed) recollections of some of
>>his seminars, with some poor use of the collar,
>
>For example?
Stimming the wrong dog. When the dog being worked wasn't responding,
turning up the stim a great deal and winding up giving high stims to a
crated dog.
>And were they even in a position to judge? If they were at a seminar,
>I have to assume that they are mostly inexperienced with the proper
>use of an e-collar?
More than one person, some more versed than others.
>>and his reaction makes me queasy.
>
>What reaction?
That it was no big deal. I think it is. I think anyone using
anything of power should be very sure of where that power is pointed.
>Why wasn't their fairness?
>
>Could you provide me with more specific information, kiddo?
>
>You're starting to sound like Alison. :)
Oh please - no! The crated dog didn't deserve the collar action he
got and there didn't seem to be the least bit of regret about it. One
again, it's kind of like the old comic of Dennis the Menace hitting a
baseball and braking Mr Wilson's window. Know where you're aiming.
Janet B
>
>Communicating with the written word isn't something that Fred is very
>good at, and he knows it. But he still participates on several mail
>lists, with other professional trainers.
I'm on one. Several people, besides myself, have mentioned that he
very, very rarely takes part in any discussions, but does a lot of
"come look at my videos". While my website is in my sig line, I don't
promote it (not to mention there isn't much there except basic
information for students! ;-D).
>I think that's a crock of crap, Janet. Was this Fred himself doing
>the seminar? He's always been pretty damn careful about things like
>that. I can't even imagine Fred turning up the stim, much less
>stimming the wrong dog.
Ask him. I can find the information if I look back enough, but not
sure it would be appropriate to reprint something from a list, here.
>They don't sound like they were really qualified to judge anyone, IMO,
>and especially to know what was *really* going on.
They saw a dog being stimmed that wasn't the dog being worked. How
hard is that to "really" see?
>Fred's one of the best e-collar trainers out there, (no one is as good
>as I am, of course), and I have nothing but great respect for his
>abilities.
I agree that he's one of the best e-collar trainers out there. But
he's human and can make mistakes.
>What was no big deal? His reaction to stimming the wrong dog? Maybe
>his lack of a reaction was because there really wasn't anything to
>react to?
I will try to find the more precise information, but yes, there was
something to react to.
>Let's say that it did happen, okay? Did the fact that a mistake was
>made indicate a lack of fairness to you?
The lack of remorse. I think good e-collar work is very fair. But in
this case, it was not fair to the crated dog.
>Well, it's probably not the first time that the wrong dog has gotten
>stimmed, but Fred uses such low levels of stimulation (especially at
>seminars), it probably really is no big deal.
You weren't there and neither was I. The dog in the crate apparently
thought it was a VERY big deal.
>Oh, come on Janet. You've never seen a dog accidentally get jerked
>around by his leash, say, when the handler wasn't paying attention?
>You've never done it yourself? Did you think it was a big deal?
I think it's a lot different than escalating stim levels (and as far
as the handler not paying attention and the dog getting jerked? I'd
say it's more often the HUMAN who get's pained!).
Seriously - let me look for the info on the Fred episode.
Janet B
>Look, like I said before, Fred doesn't communicate very well in
>writing. If a picture really is worth a thousand words, like they say
>it us (don't ask me you "they" are), then Fred "communicates" pretty
>good without having to say very much.
I'm just calling it as I see it. He rarely answers a question and no,
his videos do not answer it. No biggie - just what it is.
>But what would be wrong with promoting? This is America, not Cuba.
>And if you don't think that having it sitting there, at the end of
>every single post you make on Usenet, isn't "promoting" it, why not
>just remove it?
It's not active promotion, but put there so people can see who I am.
Not asking anyone to look at it, or not.
>Is this a little jealousy that I'm detecting here? Of course, there's
>no known record of trainers being jealous of other trainers. Maybe
>this is the very first time it's ever happened? :)
Nope. I have no desire to be a well-traveled dog trainer! I'm pretty
happy with what I do and where I do it. I think it's great that he's
successful. It would just be nice for him to actually converse with
other dog trainers nce in awhile. His "written word" skills can't be
that poor.
>Why ask Fred??? Why shouldn't I ask your friends, instead?
Not my friends - I don't know them except from a trainer's list. I
don't remember who it was at this point and my search has been tedious
so far.
> Did Fred admit (on the mail list) that
>he stimmed the wrong dog? Is it his response on the mail list that
>has you so concerned? Or his response at the seminar?
Yes, he admitted it, and both.
>But how would they know for sure that the dog had actually being
>stimmed??
He apparently reacted rather dramatically.
>A dog being stimmed isn't that unlike a dog not being stimmed. Maybe a
>twitch of ears, etc. How exactly did they KNOW?
He was screaming.
>Is that a good enough reason to dump on him? Don't you ever make
>mistakes? I know that I do.
You bet I do. Not dumping on him, just not jumping on his bandwagon.
I said I don't buy into the FH gig. You asked me to elaborate. I
didn't set out to "dump" on him.
>I hope you will do just that, Janet. If this was a discussion on
>another mail list, why not just redact the personal information and
>post the rest here?
When and if I can find it.
>Oh please, Janet. What was Fred supposed to do, get down on his knees
>and beg for forgiveness? Making a big fuss over an innocent mistake
>isn't something you'll find me doing very often, either.
Admit his mistake and say - wow folks - be really careful that you've
got the right button for the dog being worked.
>I make it a point never to pass on information about people regarding
>things that might have happened or didn't happen, if I didn't see them
>happen or not happen myself. Even about people I don't like.
It's not ab out liking or not liking Fred. Honestly, I don't think
about him much at all! More than one person on a TRAINER'S list
discussed this seminar.
> you have no way of knowing if your "friends"
>might not have an agenda, etc.
Trainers. Not friends, not people I have ever met.
Janet B
>But he's still competition in your area, too, and that can make other
>trainers uncomfortable.
I don't see him as my competition in my area.
>So...these folks might actually be just as clueless as, say, Alison?
here is a snip from a seminar attendee:
Fred told the following
story; (I assume he found it illustrative of No Limitations
training, certainly I found it gave me insight into the No
Limitations ecollar trainers and their ecollar training method).
Fred was telling about a seminar where he was using a unit that has
one remote for two collars. He took one of the dogs out to "train"
and was getting no response, so he turned the collar up higher and
higher, keeping his finger on the button, and after this had gone on
for some time finally a participant at the seminar told him his dog
in the crate was going crazy. Seems he had forgotten to switch the
remote, and the dog in the crate was getting "fried". With the
exception of my husband and myself; THE PEOPLE THERE LAUGHED AT THIS
STORY. Fred went on to share his thought it was "no big deal", he
stated that when he came over and released the dog who had been
getting "fried" in the crate, " the dog just hopped right to it,
worked like a dream".
Janet B
>
>Okay. If you say so. :)
Oh, he may indeed have clients in my area - I'm not doubting that! I'm
doubting that mot of my client base would be likely to use him, for a
variety of reasons.
>Janet, something like this just has no credibility with me. IMO, the
>writer's words are dripping with agenda.
His response wasn't denying it. I'm not going to post that here,
since we'd know who the author was!
I have recently considered a multi-dog unit, but think I prefer the
single dog ones, and also don't have a problem removing the collar frm
one dog and putting it on another. I'm not a 24/7 user, so I'm only
working to the level I want the collar for, with one dog at a time.
Janet B
>
>They might not use him, but maybe they'd use one of his students?
>
>Maybe?
Maybe, makes no difference to me quite honestly! I just care that
dogs are getting training.
>You mean Fred's own words?
yes.
>>I have recently considered a multi-dog unit, but think I prefer the
>>single dog ones,
>
>I think that's smart.
>
>There are really very few applications for multi-dog units, IMO.
I would imagine that there would be a cost-savings with a 4 dog unit
or such, but I doubt I would have 4 dogs collared up at the same time
(not to mention that I only have 3 - um - er - 2 - yeah - that's it -
2 dogs).
bet...@aol.com
Janet B wrote:
> >
> >
> > Did Fred admit (on the mail list) that
> >he stimmed the wrong dog? Is it his response on the mail list that
> >has you so concerned? Or his response at the seminar?
>
> Yes, he admitted it, and both.
I'm on the same list in question and remember this whole incident quite
well. for different reasons.
>
> >But how would they know for sure that the dog had actually being
> >stimmed??
>
> He apparently reacted rather dramatically.
>
> >A dog being stimmed isn't that unlike a dog not being stimmed. Maybe a
> >twitch of ears, etc. How exactly did they KNOW?
>
> He was screaming.
>
> >Is that a good enough reason to dump on him? Don't you ever make
> >mistakes? I know that I do.
>
> You bet I do. Not dumping on him, just not jumping on his bandwagon.
> I said I don't buy into the FH gig. You asked me to elaborate. I
> didn't set out to "dump" on him.
>
> snippage>
> >Oh please, Janet. What was Fred supposed to do, get down on his knees
> >and beg for forgiveness? Making a big fuss over an innocent mistake
> >isn't something you'll find me doing very often, either.
>
> Admit his mistake and say - wow folks - be really careful that you've
> got the right button for the dog being worked.
>
> >I make it a point never to pass on information about people regarding
> >things that might have happened or didn't happen, if I didn't see them
> >happen or not happen myself. Even about people I don't like.
I have to admit that much of what I read of this incident came from
someone with a no e-collars agenda. However, there were some e-collar
trainers there that found the whole wrong dog being stimmed
distasteful.
>
> It's not ab out liking or not liking Fred. Honestly, I don't think
> about him much at all! More than one person on a TRAINER'S list
> discussed this seminar.
>
> > you have no way of knowing if your "friends"
> >might not have an agenda, etc.
>
> Trainers. Not friends, not people I have ever met.
Fred is doing another No Limitations seminar at the same faculity this
spring. Unfortunatly I have other obligations at that time. I wanted
to go and watch and see just what NL is about. I know that Gwen has
had a lot of success with it. It has allowed her to keep both Blade
and Clovis when she was afraid she would have to rehome the Malinois.
Beth
Janet B
>
>But I'm not sure that I buy that. :)
but it's twoo! If I had to support myself on my dog training income,
I might be more competitive. I don't need to and don't feel a lot of
competitiveness with other trainers. As long as the dogs are getting
actual training and not some of the crap that comes out of well, let's
just say some "chain" petstores, I'm happy!
One of the big problems with e-collar training is cost. I won't go
into why the cost may be miniscule in the scheme of things, but people
are CHEAP!
bet...@aol.com
Handsome Jack Morrison wrote:
> >I have recently considered a multi-dog unit, but think I prefer the
> >single dog ones,
>
>
> There are really very few applications for multi-dog units, IMO.
>
I actually have a two dog unit that I like since every once in a blue
moon I have both dogs on the e-collar at the same time. I have
everything colour coded though so I don't stim the wrong dog.
Oh, yeah. And I test to make sure I have the coding right by testing
the collars on myself.
Beth
> Handsome Jack Morrison
> *gently remove the detonator to send me e-mail
>
> Jimmy "Jimmuh" Carter, Joseph Lowery, et al.
> http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=21223
>
> <spit>
Janet B
<bet...@aol.com>, clicked their heels and said:
>
>I have to admit that much of what I read of this incident came from
>someone with a no e-collars agenda. However, there were some e-collar
>trainers there that found the whole wrong dog being stimmed
>distasteful.
although i think that person has also changed her mind about the tool,
but still feels the way about the "fried" incident, as you pointed
out, some e-collar trainers do as well.
I have been critical of some e-collar trainers who I felt weren't
being fair - using a stim that elicited a big yipe, merely because
they were too lazy to get off their butt and see where the dog was
(asleep under a chair), and didn't use any voice command/call/anything
- felt that the dog should have been responsible for checking in. The
dog was sleeping, near other trainers for goodness sake, in a fenced
area.
steph...@yahoo.com
called education about e-collars.
I personally do not care what anyone says about an e-collar. I think
they are cruel...mean abusive and painful and used my lazy trainers.
I personally have felt the shock of an e-collar and it hurt me.
I know one breed it does not work on is Danes. They are to sensitive
for it and can and will be emotionally traumatized by one.
When I got my second Great Dane I knew little about dogs or about
e-collars. I was walking my Maxy in the backyard on a leash (did not
have a fence at the time) and he would not walk past a certain area of
the yard. He reared up like a horse and would not move. I had to COAX
the poor boy to come further with me. Honestly it broke my heart. He
was 2 yrs old and even though I did not know a thing about e-collars I
figured out that he must have had one on at one point. It took a while
for him to trust that it was ok to walk with me whereever.....but he
finally did.
If there is a nicer way to train your dog why not do it?
That is not a question meant for anyone here to answer because I am
sure I can predict what it would be. Just a statement...my opinion as
as the saying goes opinions are like assholes. Everyone has one.
Mary Healey
> The subject on this thread is education about equipment. Should be
> called education about e-collars.
Would you like to talk about other equipment? By all means, go right
ahead.
> I personally do not care what anyone says about an e-collar. I think
> they are cruel...mean abusive and painful and used my lazy trainers.
La-la-la, I can't HEEEEEEEAR you. (Is it hard to train with your
fingers in your ears like that?)
> ...He reared up like a horse and would not move. I had to COAX
> the poor boy to come further with me.
Whereas, had he *been* a horse, he'd have been better served by teaching
him to lead and yield properly. The saying is "either you dominate the
horse, or the horse dominates you" and there are NO exceptions.
>...He
> was 2 yrs old and even though I did not know a thing about e-collars I
> figured out that he must have had one on at one point.
How did you "figure" that?
I got Duke when he was 2 years old, and I know for a fact that he spent
almost a year tied out in a yard. He, too, had issues with walking on
leash, including trying to bolt. He got over it.
I don't blame imaginary abuse or presumed e-collar use or anything I
think might have maybe sometime happened to him for his quirks.
Marcel Beaudoin
@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com:
> The subject on this thread is education about equipment. Should be
> called education about e-collars.
That is because that is what people are talking baout. SHould you desire
to talk about other training equipment, feel free to.
> I personally do not care what anyone says about an e-collar. I think
> they are cruel...mean abusive and painful and used my lazy trainers.
> I personally have felt the shock of an e-collar and it hurt me.
So because you (or someone else) has misused the e-collar, it is
automatically bad then. Geez, that is one hell of a slippery slope you
are heading down.
> I know one breed it does not work on is Danes. They are to sensitive
> for it and can and will be emotionally traumatized by one.
Have you been trained to use an e-collar? How many Danes have you tried
an e-collar on??
> When I got my second Great Dane I knew little about dogs or about
> e-collars. I was walking my Maxy in the backyard on a leash (did not
> have a fence at the time) and he would not walk past a certain area of
> the yard. He reared up like a horse and would not move. I had to COAX
> the poor boy to come further with me. Honestly it broke my heart. He
> was 2 yrs old and even though I did not know a thing about e-collars I
> figured out that he must have had one on at one point. It took a while
> for him to trust that it was ok to walk with me whereever.....but he
> finally did.
So you are, in essence, guessing here. You guess that a technique about
which you know nothing was used on a dog about whose history you know
nothing because he reared up and wouldn't move. Occam's Razor says that
there is a much better reason for that.
Also, I am not sure I buy your story. In my experience, when a dog rears
up on a leash, it is because they are trying to go faster than the holder
of a leash. When they don't want to go anywhere on the leash they will
sit down or lay down. Not rear up.
--
Marcel and Moogli
http://mudbunny.blogspot.com/
A Poor Shepherd Boy And His Dog At His Masters Feet
acute chronic long term incurable MENTAL CASE and PROFESSINAL DOG
TRAINER,
Mary Healey wrote:
> steph...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > The subject on this thread is education about equipment. Should be
> > called education about e-collars.
>
> Would you like to talk about other equipment?
You mean like slip choke and pronged spiked pinch choke collars, mary?
> By all means, go right ahead.
THAT'S ALL you and your mentally ill pals CAN talk abHOWET, REMEMBER
mary?
> > I personally do not care what anyone says about an e-collar. I think
> > they are cruel...mean abusive and painful and used my lazy trainers.
>
> La-la-la, I can't HEEEEEEEAR you. (Is it hard to train with your
> fingers in your ears like that?)
INDEEDY mary. LUCKY THING every thing is INDELLIBLY ARCHIVED
RIGHT HERE in The Amazing Puppy Wizard's Archives on Google and
other fine PUBIC uncensored search engines <{) ; ~ ) >
> > ...He reared up like a horse and would not move. I had to COAX
> > the poor boy to come further with me.
>
> Whereas, had he *been* a horse,
The Amazing Puppy Wizard likeWIZE SPECIALIZES in horsey temperament
and behavior problems, mary healy. They're ALL THE SAME SAME, mary.
> he'd have been better served by teaching him to lead and yield properly.
You mean by shanking and whipping IT, mary?
> The saying is "either you dominate the horse, or the horse dominates you"
THAT'S INSANE, mary. You CANNOT FORCE a horse to OBEY you, mary.
All you can do is MAKE IT FEAR YOU unless you know HOWE to TRAIN IT.
> and there are NO exceptions.
You're a liar and animal abuser and mental case, mary.
> >...He was 2 yrs old and even though I did not know a thing
> > about e-collars I figured out that he must have had one on
> > at one point.
>
> How did you "figure" that?
By the dog's CONSISTENT balking at the SAME DISTANCE where he'd
been CONDITITIONED to GET BURNED, mary. THAT'S HOWE.
> I got Duke when he was 2 years old, and I know for
> a fact that he spent almost a year tied out in a yard.
That's IRRELEVENT, mary. Bein tied HOWET or kenneled UNMOLESTED
DOES NOT make a critter FEARFUL or UNMANAGEABLE, mary <{) : ~ ) >
> He, too, had issues with walking on leash,
Well accordin to TOMMY SORENSON aka DOGMAN aka gentleman
jack morrison a 8 week old puppy can be leash trained in minutes.
> including trying to bolt.
Your dog tried to BOLT on accHOWENT of YOU WAS CHOKIN HIM.
> He got over it.
You mean when you DOMINATED IT, mary?
> I don't blame imaginary abuse or presumed e-collar use or anything I
> think might have maybe sometime happened to him for his quirks.
RIGHT. What SCARED your dog Duke was YOU CHOKIN HIM:
HOWEDY mary,
Mary Healey wrote:
> "buzzsaw" <t-...@comcast.net> wrote:
> > In fact the only thing that really brings out the beast
> > in this dog that I have seen so far is squirells he goes
> > absolutely nuts and I have to restrain with all my might.
>
> Heh. I never did break Sam of that.
THATand car chasing and dog aggression or any other
behavior you've never been able to train, eh mary?
But that never taught you to TRY SUMPTHIN DIFFERENT
because you ain't got the intellect to outwit the cunning of
the domestic puppy dog. Heh, heh, mary.
> Maybe because I found it amusing.
That so? You must be a very funny professional
dog trainer after TEN YEARS of NOT BEING ABLE
to STOP LAUGHING at your own dog bolting to
chase cars and squirrels.
> > ... I went wide around him onto the grass
That'll alert both dogs to become SUSPICIOUS.
> > maybe 10 ft from him and his dog as we passed,
I move dog aggressive dogs to 3' from their sides
and continue straight past each other and continue
ten ft beyond the cross point and REVERSE and DO
IT AGAIN till the AGGRESSION is EXXXTINGUISHED in
just a few minutes.
> > Max was good up until the point that we passed
RIGHT. That's the point where the handler must praise
and make the decision to continue forward or reverse
and do it again till extinguishment.
> > and he lunged at him and bark excessively.
If they blow up at the point where they're both even
with the other dog we continue moving forward. If they
break pryor to coming up on the other dog we reverse
and go ten feet and reverse again and do it over till
we can pass on a 10'X3' path till the aggression stops
then we sit the dogs back to back at the point where
they passed each other and do a couple exercises to
provoke them to make another aggressive move and repeat
the process till extinction.
Takes minutes to break fear aggression in ANY dog so
long as you AIN'T JERKIN and CHOKING and THREATENING.
> > I corrected with a "leave it" and pulled him away.
Yeah, that INCREASES ANXIETY and CAUSES AGGRESSION
just like HOWE giving a "leave it" command CAUSES
dogse to STEAL POISON soon as they think their handler
CAN'T HURT THEM in time to STOP the BAD BEHAVIOR.
As a PROFESSIONAL TRAINER, you're a FRAUD, mary.
> With a dog Max's size,
You mean a BIG dog you can't HURT and INTIDMIATE
like you could your own dog Sam who couldn't be
broken of chasing cars squirrels kats other dogs
or any other behavior problems you've NEVER been
able to consistently train ANY dog to do or not.
> a dog that can't walk past another dog and remain calm,
Like your dog Sam who couldn't walk past a squirrel
or a passing car, mary? Do you REALLY think your
ADVICE is worthwhile for ANY similar behavior?
> I'd have him sit/stay and keep him focused on me
Yeah, but THAT NEVER WORKS.
> ("watch me")
OR YOU'LL HURT HIM somemore.
> while the other dog walked by.
Or you'll jerk and choke him and throw
your body between them like you done to
Sam for ten years for chasin cars, mary.
> The important part of this is to
NOT FOLLOW YOUR EXAMPLE, mary.
> make sure the other dog does not
> interfere with Max in ANY way -
timmy doesn't even have CON-TROLL of his
own dog just like HOWE you didn't have
CON-TROLL of your own dog Sam for ten
years with the same problem.
>- no sniffing, no "he's friendly", nothing.
BWEEEEEEEEAHAHAHAHHAHHA!!!
You think IGNORING the other dog is gonna train
your dog not to be afraid, like HOWE you tried
for ten years with your own dog Sam, mary?:
HOWEDY mary you miserable lying dog abusing fraud,
Mary Healey wrote:
> dave...@rtccom.net wrote in news:1120751338.003117.206900
> @g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
>
> > we have aprox. 6# pitbull puppies 4 sale. parents on
> > site. great markings.
>
> Y'know, the first question I have when looking for a puppy
> is not "what color should I get"?
The Amazing Puppy Wizard usually picks color first.
HOWE else are you gonna eliminate all the nice prospects?
> > ... no they are not registered but, all parents are on site.
Good. Home bred pups, raised with children, no DHOWET <{); ~ ) >
> Forget registration,
He sez he AIN'T GOT registration. The Amazing Puppy
Wizard don't care abHOWET registrations unless HE'S
fixin to BREED the dog for SHOWE puppies <{); ~ ) >
But HE don't SELL PUPPIES to dog abusers like you, mary.
> are the sire and dam tested for heritable genetic problems?
You mean like hemangiosarcoma?
You got 2 DEAD DOGS and a DEAD KAT from hemangiosarcoma.
You think it's CONtagiHOWES or do you THINK IT MIGHT be
a STRESS INDUCED AUTO-IMMUNE DIS-EASE of the micro epethilieal
cells aka The Puppy Wizard's SYNDROME <{); ~ ) >
Here's a couple EXXXCERPTS from your own posted CASE HISTORY:
"My 13-year old cat is going strong, even with no teeth
and some kidney damage that requires sub-q fluids a couple
times a week. My 7-year old cat is dead, because of kidney
damage that didn't respond to hydration.
I've got a cat with a liver problem. That much was known
from his symptoms (weight loss) and blood work. The steroid
treatment (prednisolone) he received for the symptoms at
initial presentation would have messed up the treatment
for the underlying cause - if the underlying cause was liver
cancer. It wasn't, thank goodness, but he had 3 chemotherapy
treatments before we got that part figured out.
Sam and Noah both died from what seems like the same kind
of aggressive, super-nasty cancer (hemangiosarcoma).
Because Gareth's treatments were much more expensive than
I'd anticipated, among other reasons, when Sam was injured
in a scrap with Ranger I chose to treat him at home - without
veterinary care. Cost *was* a consideration. He lost part
of one ear, with the usual impressive spattering of gore.
Do you think I deliberately allowed Sam to suffer? Was what
I did (or didn't do) neglect? His ear healed cleanly, but
that wasn't apparent at the time.
> If so, where could I find verification of that?
He SEZ he AIN'T GOT no registrations. He's got EXXXCELLENT
PET Pit Bull Puppies that DON'T FIGHT and DON'T DROP DEAD
from cancer like your critters seem to have a BAD HABIT of
doin, mary.
> > the dad, hanabal is a very impresive dog.
No DHOWET.
> > one of the best watch dogs i,ve ever owned!
EXXXCELLENT. All the QUALITIES of a FAMILY PET.
> > he is really something else!
INDEEDY.
> Well, he ain't breed-standard
You mean on accHOWENT of he DON'T FIGHT like your dogs, mary?:
"when Sam was injured in a scrap with Ranger I chose to treat
him at home - without veterinary care. Cost *was* a consideration.
He lost part of one ear, with the usual impressive spattering of
gore."
> if he's a good watch dog,
You mean you don't think dogs NATURALLY protect their families?
> so you're absolutely right.
Probably so, mary.
> He is something other than a good pit. Not sure why
> you'd perpetuate an incorrect temperament?
You mean on accHOWENT of his dogs DON'T FIGHT like yours?
> > bulky! with block head.
> What's the brain in that block head like?
Ain't NUTHIN like THIS, mary:
"Sam ate the complete works of Charles Dickens, a heating pad,
a brand new pair of glasses, a baggie full of metal staples,
and a 3'x3' chunk of the kitchen linoleum. And the plugs off
many of the electrical appliances. And various personal bits
out of every pair of jeans and underwear I possessed."
> Ever do anything with these dogs
> except encourage them to reproduce?
You mean, like CHASE CARS, mary?:
"Sam started chasing cars at 10 weeks and never did stop."
Maybe you got a case of the cobbler's shoeless kids,
eh PROFESSIONAL DOG TRAINER mary?:
"I use him as a demonstration dog in obedience classes.
Sam started chasing cars at 10 weeks and never did stop."
"He did learn to control himself,"
"He did learn to control himself,"
"He did learn to control himself,"
> > these pups are all fully wormed, these pups are
> > selling for only $100.00 each. this is are 9th.
Well you can't beat that with a stick, can you, mary.
At least as far as a GOOD FAMILY PET Pit Bull, eh?
> > litter and we have sold all! are dogs. we have
> > sold over 75# dogs!
>
> How many owners are you still in contact with?
Let's talk abHOWET your own dogs, mary?:
"I use him as a demonstration dog in obedience classes.
Sam started chasing cars at 10 weeks and never did stop."
"He did learn to control himself,"
"He did learn to control himself,"
"He did learn to control himself,"
Sam is why I'm "allergic" to puppies, but also why I
adore obnoxious adolescent dawgs. I dragged him to
obedience class when he was 6 months old, he dragged
me to obedience class (and agility class, and clicker
training class, and seminars, and show-n-gos, and fun
matches) for the next 4 years.
The world is a safer place now for dirty underwear and
plastic baggies.
I can go back to leaving the laundry basket on the floor.
And the trash cans. And I can remove my watch and set it
down without finding bits of its little crystal carcass in
Sam's crate. I won't have to flush Sam out from under the
dinner table, or eat with hot dogbreath steaming up my leg.
ANZ Sam-I-Am -- half ACD, all dog.
MHH
"I use him as a demonstration dog in obedience classes.
Sam started chasing cars at 10 weeks and never did stop."
"He did learn to control himself,"
"He did learn to control himself,"
"He did learn to control himself,"
Heck, I still have an ACD who adores all people (also
not "normal" breed behavior!), but he's very breed-
typical in his attempts to control and "police" the
behavior of other dogs.
"I use him as a demonstration dog in obedience classes.
Sam started chasing cars at 10 weeks and never did stop."
Left to his own devices, he'd be picking fights and
bossing everydoggy. That's why he's not left to his
own devices.
That's why he's not left to his own devices.
I wouldn't take Ranger to a dog park.
I have let him off lead, but only to play fetch
(he's ball obsessed) and never with strange dogs
around.
He can be a gentleman, but I can't depend on it."
Ooooooh! SCARY, ain't it!
You mean on accHOWENT of YOU GOT THE SAME PROBLEM
the original poster was askin for ADVICE abHOWET.
You gonna tell us HOWE you managed to EXXXPERTLY
PROFESSIONALLY TRAIN your own fear aggressive dogs
to be FEAR AGGRESSIVE when you ain't standin there
ready and able to HURT and INTIMIDATE them someMOORE?
On accHOWENT of her EXXXPERTLY PROFESSIONALLY TRAINED
DOG WILL RUN HOWET ON HER and would NEVER return JUST
LIKE HOWE dra linda aka tallgrass's St. Bernard jumped
her six foot fence and ESCAPED <{); ~ ) >
On accHOWENT of YOU GOT THE SAME PROBLEM the original
poster was ASKING for ADVICE, REMEMBER mary <{); ~ ) >
Subject: Re: Car Chasin' Dog
HOWEDY mary,
"Mary H Healey" <mhhea...@iastate.edu> wrote in message
news:41E68BA0...@iastate.edu...
> ella wrote:
> > Any thoughts on how to convince an otherwise
> > well trained dog NOT to chase cars.
Yeah. That's EZ if you know HOWE.
> You've had some good advice
That so, mary? The only ADVICE she was given
was to REWARD the BAD BEHAVIOR with treats
and to choke and intimidate the dog someMOORE.
REMEMBER mary, you miserable dog abusing mental case?
> (incompatible behavior,
That won't EXXXTINGUISH the behavior, mary,
that's what you do when you CAN'T TRAIN the
dog NOT to DO the behavior, mary.
> "leave it",
You mean jerk and choke IT while SCREAMIN "LEAVE IT"
like HOWE your pal taragreen2 was fixin to teach us
pryor to getin CHOKED UP.
> prong collar, etc.),
You mean when regular jerking and choking
on your slip choke collar don't HURT and
INTIMDIATE the dog ENOUGH to make IT
respect your AUTHORITY, mary?
> and I've used most of them,
INDEEDY. THAT'S HOWE COME The Amazing Puppy
Wizard SEZ: "DECENT PEOPLE DO NOT POST HERE
abHOWETS."
REMEMBER mary, you dog abusing mental case?
> but the simplest "fix" I've used is to simply
> put myself between the dog and the traffic.
You mean a barrier. Ever heard of BARRIER
FRUSTRATION SYNDROME, mary? You could
make yourself the stimuli that TRIGGERS the
BAD BEHAVIOR if you're the BARRIER behind
which the dog dog barks. It only takes a few
repetitions to train ANY dog to bark as soon
as the BARRIER is presented, if we CONDITION
the dog to BARK EVERY TIME the barrier is in
place... so, WON missed opportunity will TRAIN
the dog to bark at ANY THING if you're standin
in front of IT to AVOID the BAD BEHAVIOR.
BWEEEEEEEEEEEAAAHAHAHHAHAHAAA!!!
> If you're walking with the flow of cars on your left,
The dog will bolt and pull her into the traffic.
> have the dog walk to your right, no more than
> a body length ahead or behind you.
You mean, CONfHOWEND the dog's heel command?
> Don't expect him to grow out of this behavior.
RIGHT. You can TRAIN the dog not to do
that in a couple minutes, IOW, NEARLY
INSTANTLY, maybe faster if you know HOWE.
But the dog AIN'T GONNA HOWEtgrHOWE the
VISUAL ORAL REFLEX, mary.
THAT has to be DECONDITIONED, mary.
LUCKY THING dogs are CREATURES OF HABIT
and therefore CAN BE TRAINED NEARLY INSTANTLY.
AIN'T IT, mary, you miserable stinkin university
educated dog abusing mental case?
> My Sam, bless his pointy ears,
You mean your Sam whom you jerk
and choke and lock in a box, mary.
> started chasing cars at 10 weeks and never did stop.
Well then mary, you're just the WON to ADVISE US
HOWE to TRAIN HOWER dogs NOT to DO THAT.
Just start by tellin us HOWE you handled and trained
your little doggy Sam since DAY WON and we'll know
what NOT to do to MAKE dogs FEAR AGGRESSIVE
of passing cars, eh mary?
> He'd chase 'em from inside my car,
On accHOWENT of you couldn't jerk and choke
IT EVERY TIME on accHOWENT of you was busy
DRIVING, therebye VARIABLY REINFORCING the
BAD BEHAVIOR EVERY TIME you FAILED TO HURT
and INTIMDATE HIM in a timely manner.
THAT'S HOWE COME AVERSIVES DO NOT TRAIN DOGS,
mary, you dog abusing mental case.
> along the road, wherever, whenever.
Any time you rely on PAIN FEAR FORCE BRIBERY
and INTIMIDATION and FAIL to HURT INTIMIDATE
or successfully BRIBE the dog to AVOID a behavior
of the cunning domestic puppy dog you ain't got the
INTELLECT to HOWEtwit, you've VARIABLY RE-
ENFORCED the BAD BEHAVIOR.
> He did learn to control himself,
That so? You mean so long as you could throw
yourself in front of and between your dog and
an oncommin ANY THING, mary.
> but almost every long walk would have him
> diving at the wheels of some poor unsuspecting
> vehicle.
"He did learn to control himself,"
"He did learn to control himself,"
"He did learn to control himself,"
ANY behavior that's CONSISTENT PREDICTABLE
and REPEATABLE is EZ to EXXXTINGUISH NEARLY
INSTANTLY if we DON'T DO what you done to your
poor miserable abused dog Sammy since DAY WON
you miserable dog abusing mental case.
> It was always most likely when he was a little tired.
That so?
"He did learn to control himself,"
"He did learn to control himself,"
"He did learn to control himself,"
> Of course, that's also when I was likely
> to be a little tired, so maybe it was more
> my reaction time
"He did learn to control himself,"
"He did learn to control himself,"
"He did learn to control himself,"
You mean, you didn't HURT and INTIMIDATE
your little dog Sammy in time to EXXXTINGUISH
the behavior from DAY WON, eh mary?
> than his self-control that frayed a bit.
"He did learn to control himself,"
"He did learn to control himself,"
"He did learn to control himself,"
You're a mental case, mary. If the dog
learned SELF CON-TROLL you wouldn't
have to THROW YOURSELF IN FRONT
of your dog when it makes an ATTACK.
> YMMV,
"He did learn to control himself,"
"He did learn to control himself,"
"He did learn to control himself,"
You mean she MIGHT GET LUCKY and
CURE the problem by doin what you done
to CAUSE the problem, mary? Is that SANE?
> no warranty, etc.
"He did learn to control himself,"
"He did learn to control himself,"
"He did learn to control himself,"
You can't post here abHOWETS nodoGgamened
MOORE you miserable dog abusing punk thug
coward and active long term incurable university
trained MENTAL CASE.
> Damn, I miss that dog.
BWEEEEEEEEEEEAAHAHAHAHAHAAA!!
steph...@yahoo.com
How did you "figure" that?
I got Duke when he was 2 years old, and I know for a fact that he spent
almost a year tied out in a yard. He, too, had issues with walking on
leash, including trying to bolt. He got over it.
I don't blame imaginary abuse or presumed e-collar use or anything I
think might have maybe sometime happened to him for his quirks.
Hey let's see....I asked his breeder of whom placed him with me after
she went to the house of the current owner to pick them up to show them
at a dog show and was not able to due to the fact that they were to
emaciated to show...so she took her dogs back......(and then she placed
him with me)she said they had shock collars on, were living in the
garage and were not being fed...cared for etc.
SO what I was trying to say is that he showed signs of having at one
time had one on. It seemed to me that he was not happy.....he was
scared to move around the yard.
I said NOTHING about him PULLING ME or NOT WALKING on a lead.
I noticed this when i only had him home for a day or two.
I am no dog trainer. I don't claim to be. I do not use devices or
gimics. And I for one do not feel like wrestling a 150-200 lb. dog. So
The Amazing Pupper Wizard is teaching me to train my dog a better way.
Oh and by the way Mary are you a horse trainer too?????
Cause I do not use force or intimidation to get my horses to listen to
me...or let me treat thier wounds. It can be and is done by many with
gentle touch..love and trust.
Mary Healey
> SO what I was trying to say is that he showed signs of having at one
> time had one on.
What "signs" were those?
> It seemed to me that he was not happy.....he was
> scared to move around the yard.
<shrug> Duke would get spooky for no apparent reason for at least the
first year I had him. Again, that wasn't indicative of any particular
abuse, but did point to some major gaps in his social development.
> I said NOTHING about him PULLING ME or NOT WALKING on a lead.
I don't consider "rearing up like a horse" to be walking on a lead. Do
you?
In any case, I was describing MY dog, not yours.
> I am no dog trainer. I don't claim to be. I do not use devices or
> gimics.
Or common sense or any known form of logic.
> Oh and by the way Mary are you a horse trainer too?????
Depends on who you ask. I suspect my horse thinks he's the trainer.
> Cause I do not use force or intimidation to get my horses to listen to
> me...or let me treat thier wounds. It can be and is done by many with
> gentle touch..love and trust.
What makes you think I do otherwise?
Janet B
heels and said:
>I personally do not care what anyone says about an e-collar.
Then don't read the thread.
>I think
>they are cruel...mean abusive and painful and used my lazy trainers.
You can think whatever you'd like, but that doesn't make it true.
>I personally have felt the shock of an e-collar and it hurt me.
What brand? what setting? who used it on you?
>I know one breed it does not work on is Danes.
is that so!
>They are to sensitive
>for it and can and will be emotionally traumatized by one.
Huh - you haven't met enough Great Danes.
>When I got my second Great Dane I knew little about dogs or about
>e-collars.
Not much progress since then, eh?
> I was walking my Maxy in the backyard on a leash (did not
>have a fence at the time) and he would not walk past a certain area of
>the yard. He reared up like a horse and would not move.
What the hell does that have to do with an e-collar?
>I had to COAX
>the poor boy to come further with me. Honestly it broke my heart.
I would have told him there was nothing to fear - the jolly routine,
and kept moving. I don't like to feed fears.
> He
>was 2 yrs old and even though I did not know a thing about e-collars I
>figured out that he must have had one on at one point.
That's a leap!
steph...@yahoo.com
"So because you (or someone else) has misused the e-collar, it is
automatically bad then. Geez, that is one hell of a slippery slope you
are heading down"
I NEVER said I used one. Boy you people DO NOT READ THE POSTS! What I
said was that I felt the shock of one.
"Have you been trained to use an e-collar? How many Danes have you
tried
an e-collar on?? "
Have never been trained to use one. Have felt the shock of it. It
hurts. Don't like it so will not use it on my dogs. YES I have had dogs
come to me that have had one on and seen the trauma it caused. I am not
an idiot Marcel. You can defend it all you want. Won't work for me.
"So you are, in essence, guessing here. You guess that a technique
about
which you know nothing was used on a dog about whose history you know
nothing because he reared up and wouldn't move. Occam's Razor says that
there is a much better reason for that. "
Yep...knew the hystory.I know EVERYTHING I can about my dogs. Both
Rescues and own personal dogs. I try to learn everything...owners,
hystory.... abuse that was caused on them by other idiot owners and
trainers. DONT just ASSUME I did not know. Assuming makes an ass out of
you and me. Didn't ya know that Marcel? Did not get that part into the
note I guess. My mistake.
"Also, I am not sure I buy your story. In my experience, when a dog
rears
up on a leash, it is because they are trying to go faster than the
holder
of a leash. When they don't want to go anywhere on the leash they will
sit down or lay down. Not rear up. "
I WILL LET THE AMAZING PUPPER WIZARD answer that one for ya. He says it
best.
'By the dog's CONSISTENT balking at the SAME DISTANCE where he'd
been CONDITITIONED to GET BURNED, mary. THAT'S HOWE. '
And in all actuallity he did rear up. I was in front of him. He was not
pulling me along. I was trying to get him to go with me past an area of
the yard and he balked and reared. SOrt of like a horse.
And Jerry is right. Trainin horses is the same. Ask the horse
whisperer.
Before I bought my mare she was being treated for rain rot. Her back
legs hurt and so she was cow kicken the guy who was treating her. I was
there for a short time seein my other horses and he had a shank on her
(the mare that had rain rot that is now my mare.) It put tears to my
eyes. Hey horse people will argue with ya too. They say it don't hurt.
Well then why does it hurt ME and you can see the fear in her eyes.
Needless to say after I bought her she was all better. (the rain rot
but not her spirit) She then hurt her eye out in the pasture...got a
cut on it. and I was gonna treat it. Well the same man was gonna get
the shank for me. I said nope I don't need it. He said yes I did. I
said nope I don't. Watch me.
I used gentle patient kind treatment...respect...takes a bit more time
but I treated her eye without any gimics...no shank. Just me stroken
her head....body. Talking to her nice. I could have treated her legs in
the same way. But unfortunately I did not get the chance. Now I am
working for months to undo what others have done to her. She is a good
girl.
Pain...intimidation....and force does not work.
The truth is in thier eyes if you ever bother to look.
Steph
Dah. But then again
Janet B
<handsomeja...@thedetonatorearthlink.net>, clicked their heels
and said:
>Janet, I have just spoken with "the horse." And here's the story of
>what happened, according to Fred. The incident you described did in
>fact happen, and it was indeed a mistake. The dog it happened to was
>Fred's own dog, Sarah, while he was working with another dog.
>
>He uses the story to illustrate to people that, while an e-collar can
>indeed be misused, even if by accident, it's not unrecoverable. He
>brought Sarah immediately out of her crate, her tail was wagging, she
>wanted to work, and Fred even demonstrated how easily Sarah returned
>to the crate afterwards. Really, it *wasn't* that big of a deal.
As you pointed out, I was not there and neither were you. I believe
it's totally recoverable and Sarah trust him so why wouldn't it be?
That wasn't the point - the point is that her initial reaction was NOT
a good thing, and maybe he needs to learn how to tell the story a bit
better.
>As an e-collar trainer yourself, you know that radio frequencies in
>multi-dog settings can and do get screwed up, no matter what
>precautions you take, and when it does happen, it's not the end of the
>world.
Haven't had it happen, but yes.
>Now, he also told more me about the writer. And precisely what
>happened at the seminar she was at where Fred told this story. Fred
>doesn't think that she had an agenda, but that she's just a wincer.
I don't doubt that, but the story was backed up by non-wincers (ones
who criticized her leaving).
> Number 6 was a huge
>Rotty, and he made a crying sound, just like he usually does when
>being worked, even without a collar.
Yes, I have met the dog!
> The dog was owned by someone who
>was already being trained by one of Fred's students. This owner is
>apparently on that same list, and apparently tried to explain all this
>to the writer of your snippet.
Yes, I know the owner as well. She's a very sane person.
>Fred also asked me to remind you to take a look at all the dogs in one
>of your own classes, and carefully observe their reactions when *you*
>walk over and work them for the first time. No matter what kind of
>class, whether it's regarding e-collars, prongs, flats, etc. How many
>times have you had a dog immediately lay down, or slump over, or roll
>over, or even cry out, etc., simply because you put a collar on it, or
>attached a leash to the collar, for the very first time?
Not a lot, because my class is outside and they have leashes and
collars on. I did have one Sibe puppy who after I outlasted him on
"suspension" week 1, peed everytime I glanced in his direction. Most
of the dogs I take to demo do a really good job right off. There WAS
a dog several years ago who was a real PITA. He either planted his
feet and screamed (didn't matter what collar) or forged. So we had 2
leashes and 2 collars. We had a prong for when he was lunging and a
martingale for when he was planting. The only rule was that he MUST
keep moving until I tell him otherwise. Those are always a treat.
>I think the
>answer to that should be "Pretty often, now that I think about it" if
>you train very many dogs, and I think you do.
It's rare that I put a new collar on the dog and then work the dog. At
least not until I have the owner give it a spin.
>But you work through it, don't you? And within a short time, the dog
>starts to respond favorably, etc. Again, their initial response
>wasn't such a big deal after all, was it?
I have certainly had my share of screamers (and on buckle collars
yet!).
>Janet, I'm going from memory here, and I may have forgotten something,
>and I may even be misstating something, but I think it well represents
>what Fred just told me on the phone.
I believe you and I believe him. The fact remains that even
non-wincers were uncomfortable and that made me wonder. I'm
definitely a "pick yourself up and brush yourself off" thinker, and
didn't think the dog was permanently damaged.
Mary Healey
> ...Trainin horses is the same. Ask the horse whisperer.
Which one?
> Well then why does it hurt ME and you can see the fear in her eyes.
Because you project your emotions onto the animals.
Janet B
heels and said:
>Ms Marcel or is it Mr. Cannot tell.wote:
Marcel is a man's name.
>I NEVER said I used one. Boy you people DO NOT READ THE POSTS! What I
>said was that I felt the shock of one.
Then you were part of it's use.
steph...@yahoo.com
better at it than I am.
You guys sit and talk and write about what an ASS he is and how mean
and nasty the Amazing Puppy Wizard is...and Your the mean nasty asses.
You play with peoples words. Honestly I find his writings humorous and
why may I ask? Because he's got ya all down to a tee. He knows how to
get under your skin and to tell the truth. To bad like he said no real
decent human beings are on this forum...most likely cause who can stand
to stay on here and listen to your bullshit.THe only thing I am or many
others here are guilty of is not going along with your 'idea' of
training a dog using shock, force...choking. bribery and abuse. Go
ahead and defend yourselves.
You know back when i did rescue I know of allot of other rescuers who
would put in thier adoption contracts that you MUST take your new dog
to training classes. Funny how that was not something I made a new
adopter do. Maybe cause I was to afraid that they would find someone
typical like the likes of you who use whatever you use that destroys
the soul of our four-legged friends.
steph...@yahoo.com
Monty Roberts, Who else?
I guess Monty 'projects the emotions into the animals eyes to?'
Interesting concept.
IHateToSayIt...@inbox.com
and active acute chronic long term incurable mental case,
Marcel Beaudoin
@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com:
> Ms Marcel or is it Mr. Cannot tell.wote:
As Janet Mentioned, I am a man.
>> "So because you (or someone else) has misused the e-collar, it is
>> automatically bad then. Geez, that is one hell of a slippery slope you
>> are heading down"
>
> I NEVER said I used one. Boy you people DO NOT READ THE POSTS! What I
> said was that I felt the shock of one.
Did you read the part where I had in parentheses "Or someone else", or
did you decide to just skip this and go straight to righteous
indignation?? ANd, if I wanted to be picky, the fact that you have had
one on you and someone turned it on means that you used one.
>> "Have you been trained to use an e-collar? How many Danes have you
>> tried
>> an e-collar on?? "
>
> Have never been trained to use one. Have felt the shock of it. It
> hurts. Don't like it so will not use it on my dogs. YES I have had dogs
> come to me that have had one on and seen the trauma it caused. I am not
> an idiot Marcel. You can defend it all you want. Won't work for me.
Soo you are assum,ing by the fact that the you have never been trained to
use it and don't know how to properly use it means that it is bad.
Gotcha.
>> "So you are, in essence, guessing here. You guess that a technique
>> about
>> which you know nothing was used on a dog about whose history you know
>> nothing because he reared up and wouldn't move. Occam's Razor says
>>that there is a much better reason for that. "
>
> Yep...knew the hystory.I know EVERYTHING I can about my dogs. Both
> Rescues and own personal dogs. I try to learn everything...owners,
> hystory.... abuse that was caused on them by other idiot owners and
> trainers. DONT just ASSUME I did not know. Assuming makes an ass out of
> you and me. Didn't ya know that Marcel? Did not get that part into the
> note I guess. My mistake.
Ummm, you said in your post:
"even though I did not know a thing about e-collars I
figured out that he must have had one on at one point."
The way you have written it indicates that you did not know if he had
been exposed to one or not. If that is not what you meant to say, then
all I can say is write more clearly.
Mary Healey
@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com:
> In reply to Mary,
>
> Monty Roberts, Who else?
Any of the dozens of people, past and present, who've been described as a
"horse whisperer". Roberts is only one among many, and not the best of
them by any means.
> I guess Monty 'projects the emotions into the animals eyes to?'
> Interesting concept.
I wouldn't let Monty Roberts near my horse. Have you watched him?
I prefer the Dorrances, Mark Rashid, or Harry Whitney, even Buck Brannaman
to Roberts' self-aggrandizing nonsense. Anyone who trains with one eye on
the clock is not getting near me and mine.
Janet B
heels and said:
>aww thats alright I will just let Mr. Howe argue with you guys. He's
>better at it than I am.
Not really. The vast majority of us never see anything he writes,
unless someone else wanting to be killfiled, quotes him.
>You guys sit and talk and write about what an ASS he is and how mean
>and nasty the Amazing Puppy Wizard is.
Not really again. We talk about tools and training and funny things.
Rarely about JH unless someone as clueless as you emerges.
> Honestly I find his writings humorous and
>why may I ask?
I dunno - because you're a whacko too?
> Because he's got ya all down to a tee. He knows how to
>get under your skin and to tell the truth.
He wouldn't know the truth if it crawled up his ass.
>You know back when i did rescue I know of allot of other rescuers who
>would put in thier adoption contracts that you MUST take your new dog
>to training classes. Funny how that was not something I made a new
>adopter do. Maybe cause I was to afraid that they would find someone
>typical like the likes of you who use whatever you use that destroys
>the soul of our four-legged friends.
How odd that I not only do extensive rescue work, but hold my classes
at an animal shelter, give free advice, evaluation and training to
rescue dogs in foster care, and have incredibly happy dogs, who's
souls are just fine thank you. Yet, you've decided to agree with the
rantings of a lunatic. Very interesting.
Suja
"Janet B" <ja...@bestfriendsdogobedience.com> wrote in message:
> What the hell does that have to do with an e-collar?
This is pure speculation on my part (what the hey, it doesn't seem to bother
some people), but I'm guessing that Ms. Touchy-Feely is mixing up an IF
collar with an e-collar.
Suja
Janet B
clicked their heels and said:
>
>This is pure speculation on my part (what the hey, it doesn't seem to bother
>some people), but I'm guessing that Ms. Touchy-Feely is mixing up an IF
>collar with an e-collar.
yeah, i figured as much, but I always try to hold out hope that these
folks aren't quite as clueless as they seem. Call me a dreamer!
steph...@yahoo.com
23. A Poor Shepherd Boy And His Dog At His Masters Feet
Feb 9, 4:16 pm show options
Newsgroups: rec.pets.dogs.behavior, alt.animals.dog,
alt.pets.dogs.labrador, rec.pets.dogs.breeds, alt.pets.dogs.pitbull
From: "A Poor Shepherd Boy And His Dog At His Masters Feet"
<AtHisMastersF...@MuchoMail.Com> - Find messages by this author
Date: 9 Feb 2006 13:16:26 -0800
Local: Thurs, Feb 9 2006 4:16 pm
Subject: Re: education about equipment
Reply | Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show
original | Report Abuse
HOWEDY mary you miserable lying dog abusing punk thug coward active
acute chronic long term incurable MENTAL CASE and PROFESSINAL DOG
TRAINER,
Mary Healey wrote:
> stephsta...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > The subject on this thread is education about equipment. Should be
> > called education about e-collars.
> Would you like to talk about other equipment?
You mean like slip choke and pronged spiked pinch choke collars, mary?
> By all means, go right ahead.
THAT'S ALL you and your mentally ill pals CAN talk abHOWET, REMEMBER
mary?
> > I personally do not care what anyone says about an e-collar. I think
> > they are cruel...mean abusive and painful and used my lazy trainers.
> La-la-la, I can't HEEEEEEEAR you. (Is it hard to train with your
> fingers in your ears like that?)
INDEEDY mary. LUCKY THING every thing is INDELLIBLY ARCHIVED
RIGHT HERE in The Amazing Puppy Wizard's Archives on Google and
other fine PUBIC uncensored search engines <{) ; ~ ) >
> > ...He reared up like a horse and would not move. I had to COAX
> > the poor boy to come further with me.
> Whereas, had he *been* a horse,
The Amazing Puppy Wizard likeWIZE SPECIALIZES in horsey temperament
and behavior problems, mary healy. They're ALL THE SAME SAME, mary.
> he'd have been better served by teaching him to lead and yield properly.
You mean by shanking and whipping IT, mary?
> The saying is "either you dominate the horse, or the horse dominates you"
THAT'S INSANE, mary. You CANNOT FORCE a horse to OBEY you, mary.
All you can do is MAKE IT FEAR YOU unless you know HOWE to TRAIN IT.
> and there are NO exceptions.
You're a liar and animal abuser and mental case, mary.
> >...He was 2 yrs old and even though I did not know a thing
> > about e-collars I figured out that he must have had one on
> > at one point.
> How did you "figure" that?
By the dog's CONSISTENT balking at the SAME DISTANCE where he'd
been CONDITITIONED to GET BURNED, mary. THAT'S HOWE.
> I got Duke when he was 2 years old, and I know for
> a fact that he spent almost a year tied out in a yard.
That's IRRELEVENT, mary. Bein tied HOWET or kenneled UNMOLESTED
DOES NOT make a critter FEARFUL or UNMANAGEABLE, mary <{) : ~ ) >
> He, too, had issues with walking on leash,
Well accordin to TOMMY SORENSON aka DOGMAN aka gentleman
jack morrison a 8 week old puppy can be leash trained in minutes.
> including trying to bolt.
Your dog tried to BOLT on accHOWENT of YOU WAS CHOKIN HIM.
> He got over it.
You mean when you DOMINATED IT, mary?
> I don't blame imaginary abuse or presumed e-collar use or anything I
> think might have maybe sometime happened to him for his quirks.
RIGHT. What SCARED your dog Duke was YOU CHOKIN HIM:
HOWEDY mary,
Mary Healey wrote:
> ("watch me")
BWEEEEEEEEAHAHAHAHHAHHA!!!
HOWEDY mary you miserable lying dog abusing fraud,
Mary Healey wrote:
> daveb...@rtccom.net wrote in news:1120751338.003117.206900
> @g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
> Forget registration,
You mean like hemangiosarcoma?
No DHOWET.
INDEEDY.
Probably so, mary.
many of the ...
BWEEEEEEEEEEEAAAHAHAHHAHAHAAA!!!
Janet B
heels and said:
>Oh you mean like this?
bye bye "steph" - it's not been a pleasure!
Mary Healey
news:1139528543.2...@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com:
> Oh you mean like this?
No.
Sionnach
"Janet B" said:
> Oh, he may indeed have clients in my area - I'm not doubting that! I'm
> doubting that most of my client base would be likely to use him, for a
> variety of reasons.
Most of your client base has no need or use for spending hundreds of
dollars for remote-control seminars. And I've never met anyone in this area,
nor at any of the dog events I attend in a five-state radius, who's ever
heard of Fred Hassan, let alone been looking for a shock collar seminar to
go to.
> I have recently considered a multi-dog unit, but think I prefer the
> single dog ones, and also don't have a problem removing the collar frm
> one dog and putting it on another. I'm not a 24/7 user, so I'm only
> working to the level I want the collar for, with one dog at a time.
During the very brief period I had two dogs wearing e-collars (a few
weeks), I preferred having two remotes - then again, neither remote was very
large, and I could hang both on a lanyard around my neck.
Sionnach
<steph...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> he would not walk past a certain area of
> the yard. He reared up like a horse and would not move. I had to COAX
> the poor boy to come further with me. Honestly it broke my heart. He
> was 2 yrs old and even though I did not know a thing about e-collars I
> figured out that he must have had one on at one point.
I believe you are confusing remote e-collars with Invisible Fence collars.
Janet B
clicked their heels and said:
>
> Most of your client base has no need or use for spending hundreds of
>dollars for remote-control seminars. And I've never met anyone in this area,
>nor at any of the dog events I attend in a five-state radius, who's ever
>heard of Fred Hassan, let alone been looking for a shock collar seminar to
>go to.
There are some "NL certified" trainers in MD. I refer people to them
if I feel that's what the person can benefit from and they're willing
to spend the money. I do some teaching of e-collars, but not a
substantial amount.
> During the very brief period I had two dogs wearing e-collars (a few
>weeks), I preferred having two remotes - then again, neither remote was very
>large, and I could hang both on a lanyard around my neck.
Yeah - my Dogtra remote isn't much bigger than my rather small cell
phone.
Sionnach
"Janet B" said:
> What the hell does that have to do with an e-collar?
Seems fairly obvious to me (especially after deciphering her follow-up
post) that she's actually talking about Invisible Fence collars. IOW, the
dog thought he was nearing an IF boundary, and refused to go forward.
TrollBasher
>Oh you mean like this?
>
Did you have to bring this shit up about Jerry Howe aka The Amazing
Puppy Wizard who is a well known dog abuser, troll, pervert, newsgroup
abuser and convicted felon? We don't give a shit about him and want
you to stop posting his messages full of his lies as he is not welcome
in here. He is a PATHOLOGICAL LIAR as he has wrote slanderous
information that defames everybody in this newsgroup and he has been
killfiled for who the hell knows how long until he dries up and blows
away. If you don't stop quoting his LIES, you will be killfiled as
long as you keep bringing him up. So give it up and stop bothering us
as we don't care,
White Monkey
> up on a leash, it is because they are trying to go faster than the holder
> of a leash. When they don't want to go anywhere on the leash they will
> sit down or lay down. Not rear up.
Danes sometimes do, actually. Saskia will if she suspects
we're heading for the vet (we're nearly over this hurdle now because the
last couple of time we went in they DIDN'T need to re-open her infected
foot, etc., and I have been taking her past and in just to give her treats)
or if she thinks she'll be forced to go somewhere "bad" like the time the
animal ambulance people thought they were helping and grabbed her...
--Katrina
White Monkey
> have a fence at the time) and he would not walk past a certain area of
> the yard. He reared up like a horse and would not move. I had to COAX
> the poor boy to come further with me. Honestly it broke my heart. He
> was 2 yrs old and even though I did not know a thing about e-collars I
> figured out that he must have had one on at one point.
My Dane, Saskia, 2 years old later this month, has never worn an e-collar,
or, for that matter, an IF collar, which seems to be what you are talking
about.
But she IS a Dane, and one thing about them is that they sometimes get a bit
weird about objects. Like a shrub that wasn't there before, or a sandwich
baggie, or (like the other day) a rolling paper fluttering on the ground. A
reflection, even. To try to get them to go past these things without letting
them investigate can be a real to-do, and for Saskia, at least, would be
temporarily traumatic if I hadn't worked with her slowly and carefully to
the point that she now totally believes me when I tell her it's OK to pass
it with me there (as Janet puts it elsewhere in the thread, "the jolly
approach"). There was the soccer ball in the canal incident, that had
her running from window to window growling at it until it had floated out of
sight--just closing the curtains made her think it might have got IN, and
she investigated obsessively every nook and cranny until I opened the
curtains again. There was the marble in the crack between two bricks on the
garden path incident--she would
not go past there at first, and then once I'd figured out what the trouble
was would not go by happily until I let her give it a good sniff and a few
pokes. There was even the period before Queen's Day last year, when every
day a new section of sidewalk had someone's reservation-marker chalked or
painted onto it--after the first few she stopped wanting to hesitate and
sniff them all, but did give them a good hard stare on the way by. Danes are
funny critters that way sometimes. It's taken her a month to get up her
nerve to walk past the baby gate without me there when it's half closed
(there's plenty of room). Do I think her breeder slapped an
e-collar on her and shocked her while showing her rolling papers, marbles,
chalk marks on the sidewalk, baby gates, and soccer balls, in the 8 weeks of
her life
before I got her? Of course not! Don't be silly.
--Katrina
IHateToSayIt...@inbox.com
steph...@yahoo.com wrote:
> In reply to Mary,
Have you read mary's CASE HISTORY of TEN YEARS tryin to break
her dog Sam of chasin cars by throwin herself between him and
the cars he bolted after and her SUCCESS after a long walk jerkin
an chokin IT till IT got tired and walked NICE on leash???
>
> Monty Roberts, Who else?
You mean Sir Monty Roberts, Stephstac69. He got Knighted by
The Queen for his work with her calvary. He's as feared,
hated and despised amongst the horse abusers as The Amazing
Puppy Wizard is amongst the DOG LOVERS (i.e. liars dog abusers
cowards and active acute chronic long term incurable MENTAL
CASES) we got here abHOWETS.
Only difference is, he don't GO FOR THEIR THROATS like HOWE
The Amazing Puppy Wizard has a tendency to do when suppHOWESED
DOG LOVERS HURT INTIMIDATE and MURDER innocent defenseless
dumb critters an LIE abHOWET IT <{): ~ ) >
Sir Monty Roberts will be lookin forward to participating on
Animal Behavior Forensic Sciences Research Laboratory's team
of EXXXPERT WITNESSES in the PROSECUTION of professional
animal abusers and university trained behaviorists <{): ~ ) >
> I guess Monty 'projects the emotions into the animals eyes to?'
"The eyes are the windows of the soul."
> Interesting concept.
INDEEDY.
Here's a interesting story abHOWET HOWE Sir Monty Roberts
got snookered in Australia by some red necked cowboys:
Date: Thurs, Jan 2 2003 5:04 am
Email: "Jerry Howe" <jho...@bellsouth.net>
HOWEDY Nevyn,
"Nevyn" <n...@webtec.net.au> wrote in message
news:537b0789.03010...@posting.google.com...
> Greetings Jerry,
> I haven't seen you on MSN for quite some time,
I shut it off so I could dedicate MOORE time to
the forums debunking our experts and exposing
our liars and dog abusers.
You been following disciple cris's thread about
the two aggressive unsocialized shelter dogs he's
confounded with???
He's gettin advice from DIDDLER to HELP them!!!
> just e-mailing you to see if you're ok?
Yeah, same same same same here, good buddy.
I was just over to the pro trainers hot list. Took
them maggots two days to discover they can't
talk trainin with me EVEN IN THE "'BACK ROOM'
'where ANYTHING GOES'"... BWWWAHAHAHAA!!!
> I hope all is going well.
Yeah, I've got health protection insurance like you
wouldn't freakin believe. TRUST ME on that, I'm
bulletproof.
> I am applying to enter a dog training and behavioural
> education course next year.
BWWWHAAHAHAHAA!!! You'll either become the
professor or they'll THROW YOU OUTTA THERE
like the "pro trainers" did me... BWWAAHAHAA!!!
Check it out, good buddy. The FIRST post I sent
to the hot list was my "Relative Judgement Of A
Circular Assignment Of Though." You can find it
here on our forum too.
Well, THAT got me sent to the back room straight
outta the box. I guess they really got scared.
Their FIRST objections was to my reference to a
quote from Monty Roberts that he'd never seen
a horse run to the next blade of grass. No mention
of his methods or nuthin, just a comment about
food bribes...
Well, that got them talkin about HOWE CRUEL
MONTY is, and HOWE his methods are DANGEROUS
and INEFFECTIVE... Just like they do me, here!~~
SHAAAZZZAAAMMM!!!
The horse abusing comunity is up in arms about him,
just like our dog lovers are freakin out over me an
my students. There was NOTHIN to indict his horse
handling methods, only unsubstantiate rumors, dismissed
court suits against him, and some old high school enemies
he'd evidently thumped but good and they ain't got over it
yet, and some money grubbin jealous family members...
an maybe a old scorned girlfriend...
Of the fifty or so links on the anti Monty site, I found only
2 that had ANY mention of his TRAINING methods...and
they clearly did not understand what they was talking about
and INTENTIONALLY misconstrued what he DOES.
LIES! All of it was personal attack and outright LIES about
his methods! I can PROVE that to you in a heartbeat!
Well, the reason I mention all this is on account of one
story on the site had to do with Monty's "Australia
Embarrasment." Lemme tell ya sumpthin, I gots to hand
it to you Aussies, Nevyn. They pulled a Puppy Wizard on
him, and he got suckered in!!!
Oh boy, I'da seen it comin a mile away. Wish I was there,
I coulda queerd them but good at their own game, but
Monty just didn't have the experience Your Puppy Wizard
has...
Here's the deal. These cowboys are pretty hot at him not
hurtin horses, just like our dog lovers are havin the squirts
over YPW... So, they SET HIM UP.
You Aussies got a good sense of humor. They took a
horse and trained him to ATTACK. Said he was "wild,"
just a range horse they couldn't break... So, ol MR goes
into the round pen, and Silver rears and strikes an chased
him outta the ring. Can't blame him for THAT. I'd be outta
the ring too if the stalion was goin nuts...
So, he goes back in and tries again, and NUTHIN!!!
He's hit the goddamned wall with this critter. Ain't
nuthin goin down like it sez in the book! He figgers
the horse is CRAZY, and NEEDS to be KILLED.
Can't blame him for that, it's a UNTRAINABLE "wild"
horse... So, the Aussie cowboy laughs at him, takes
the horse, and in a half hour, mounts and rides him..
FIGGER IT OUT.
BWAAAHAHAHAHAAA!!! Of course, by THEN it was
too late for Monty to do anythin, he'd been had but good.
Too bad he didn't have The Puppy Wizard nearby, I'd have
knocked that horse off by his second or third strike at him,
cause YOU CAN TELL a trained response from a wild horse's
response, BUT IT'S SUBTLE, so you really got to look close.
HOWEver, not being there myself, I didn't SEE what
happend, but a good trainer don't got to SEE behaviors,
we KNOW behaviors and when critters do not respond
as they SHOULD, we know to look for something physical,
like a nail too deep in the shoe or whatever, like PRYOR
TRAINING...
You should see the info they got on the pro trainer's hot
list, Nevyn, IT'LL MAKE YOU CRY. They're BRUTAL over there.
Many of our rpdb dog lovers are also on the pro trainer's
hotlist, and they're so childish it's pathetic. NOBODY wants
to learn HOWE to train dogs like I trained you, Nevyn...
Freakin cris is gonna end up killin two perfectly good dogs
cause he isn't willin to INSIST his trainers work with my
methods instead of screwing around bribing and antagonizing
them. He's SCARED of them, Nevyn. I think cris is a mental
case, if you really wanna know. I used to think VERY highly
of him, but now I KNOW otherwise. What a dissappointment.
Yeah, I got no use for cowards and animal abusers, Nevyn.
That's HOWE COME I put out my former close friend marilyn
She's not willing to state the FACTS AS THEY ARE, so to
heel with her. Wasted my goddamned time training her and
she turns her back on me after I got her straightend out just
like I did you. She used to use a choker before she studied
with me. INGRATE.
> Would you be able to write me a reference?
Well, I don't need to write YOU a reference Nevyn.
You already did that all by yourself, good buddy.
> I would need it A.S.A.P.
MY SPECIALTY:
> Thanks for your time,
MY PLEASURE!
> Nevyn
Nevyn writes:
HOWEDY Group,
Here some SUCCESS STORIES ive had using
JERRY'S MANUAL
1) My dogz, two bitches - Vicious, barking, aggressive,
pulled on leash, wanted to kill any dogs they saw, fought
between each other. TWO WEEKS using Jerry's manual,
they were calm, friends, my companions.
2) ADDED A BEAGLE PUPPY (male) to my "PACK", the
girls had -NO PROBLEMS- with him from the moment I
dropped him by their noses.
3) My FRIENDS dogs 2 MALES barking and jumping
at the fence all night 3 DAYS TRAINING WITH JERRY'S
MANUAL they were CALMED AND HAVEN'T BARKED ONCE!
Added a NEW MALE DOG (2 yrs old) AND
WELCOMED HIM WITH NO WUCKAS !
4) POODLE that ATE food from the KITCHEN BENCH -
lock him in a box? NO! USE JERRYS MANUAL! 4 DAYS
AND HES NEVER DONE IT SINCE!
5) ABUSED DOGS AT THE SHELTER I WORK AT -
HAD TO BE FED WITH A BUCKET ON A STICK -
ONE WEEK ON JERRYS MANUAL, THE SUPERVISOR
TOLD ME TO PUT THEM IN THE PUBLIC KENNELS
FOR SALE !
Quite amazing to - I thought they were just dull coloured
dogs, but after I had removed the fear and anxiety their
hairs coloured up amazingly.
6) STAFFY FEMALE who would NOT DROP HER
BALL! She carried it around all day and night - 3
DAYS on jerrys MANUAL and she now DROPS
it when u ASK her to!
BWHWHAHAHAHAAHA !!!!
Nevyn
============
Nevyn wrote:
Jerry I cannot even begin to tell you the success I've had with
your training manual! My two mutts have gone from out-of-control
psychos to obedient well behaved companions within a matter of
weeks! AND My friends have seen the success and have asked me
to work on their dogs!
I was working with a 5 month old Ridgeback female today and she
was being an angel after like an hour of working with her! It is
AMAZING!!
I pity those fools who take their dogs to classes where the
"Trainers"abuse their dogs! (do they have a degree? A masters?
a Phd? by the way? NO they are average joes off the street
who think they know how to train dogs!)
Once again, Jerry, you are a genius!
NEVYN and my Dogs, Rizzo and Midget, My Grandparents
dogs, Dusty and Snoopy, and my friends pup, Jazz.
================
Here's a discussion I just had with Nevyn, who wrote in here
about four weeks ago with some dog aggression problems
and THEN some.
Never give out your password or credit card number in an
instant message conversation.
Nevyn says:
hello Jerry.
Jerry says:
HOWEDY Nevyn
Nevyn says:
How are you?
Jerry says:
sup?
Nevyn says:
Oh nothing
Nevyn says:
My dogs are alot better now!
Jerry says:
fine
Jerry says:
tell me
Nevyn says:
I can walk them on or off the leash and
they don't give a #@% about other dogs
Jerry says:
naah
Nevyn says:
I can let them inside and they wont eat the cats
Jerry says:
naah
Nevyn says:
Yup
Jerry says:
what did you do, buy a shock collar?
Nevyn says:
No
Nevyn says:
Praised them
Jerry says:
ahh!
Jerry says:
you think they're 100% better
Nevyn says:
'cept they still bark at the neighbour but
only coz he swears at them and pours water on them
Nevyn says:
nahh they still have stinky breath!
Nevyn says:
muahaha
Jerry says:
ok
Jerry says:
I'll go for that
Jerry says:
it'll take a couple more days to break
the neighbor thing if you're consistent
Jerry says:
then he won't swear and throw water at them
Nevyn says:
yeah but he's only out on the weekends
Jerry says:
but they'll still have stinky breath
Nevyn says:
muahahaha
Jerry says:
you gonna write the group and tell
them they're suckin hind teat?
Nevyn says:
eh
Nevyn says:
nah
Nevyn says:
cant
Nevyn says:
my news server isn't workin
Nevyn says:
how about u just screenshot or copy this chat and post it
Jerry says:
why not.
Nevyn says:
sorry been tryin all day to get on the news server
Jerry says:
you got anything you'd like to tell the dog lovers who would
prefer to see you choke and shock and lock your dogs in a box?
Jerry says:
I guess you don't want to tell them
nuthin that they don't already know, huh?
Nevyn says:
hah
Nevyn says:
tell them they're fuckers who need to die
Nevyn says:
dogs aren't for abusing they are for loving they love so much
Jerry says:
that's HOWE COME they got me now
Jerry says:
howe much training time did it take for the two of 'em?
Nevyn says:
pfftt
Nevyn says:
it didn't even seem like training
Nevyn says:
its been 24 days since I got your manual
Jerry says:
pfffttt!!!!
Jerry says:
hhahahahaha
Jerry says:
have you got that feeling that they're in tune
with EVERYTHING you're wanting them to do?
Jerry says:
I forgot what city you're in.
Jerry says:
maybe if you're near alphalpha sweeny you can swing by and
LAUGH your ass off at him growling at his dogs???
Jerry says:
BWWWHAHAHAHAHAAAA!!!
Nevyn says:
LOL
Nevyn says:
I'm in Perth, Australia!
Nevyn says:
and yes they do seem to be in tune
=====================
Nevyn says:
oh!! the other day my dogs went into submissive
position when a tiny little toy poodle came up
barking at them! !LOL
Jerry says:
EXCELLENT!
Nevyn says:
lol
Jerry says:
they knew they didn't need to fight, cause
everything was in your expert control.
Keep up the good work. j;~)
-----------------
Nevyn" <ali...@wasp.net.au> wrote in message
news:fde575d9.02090...@posting.google.com...
Hi There Jerry
Its Nevyn. Sorry I've not been posting, but these lying
scum buckets like Alphuck Sweeny and such really
piss me off; And Ive been working weekend work at
the tracks with the greyhounds (thanks to you!).
Well my dogs are the envy of all on my street. I can
have them out in the yard with me, take them walking
without a leash, they will do any command with no
hesitation. And they don't bark anymore! Thanks to
your machine!
Oh yeah, I loaned your machine to several friends
and family -- Here are some reports:
"I would say my dogs are well trained, but they suffer
severe anxiety when no body is home. This machine
quietened them almost instantly - still they barked,
in the beginning, but just one or two barks. Then
slowly they just stopped... beginning to bark, then
instantly stopping.
It took only 2 weeks, and we did nothing.
Truly amazing;
I have recommended it to my family, and perhaps
they will buy one. Its a shame you don't sell them publicly".
-- Kylie, 30, on dogs Lili (11 yr mutt bitch) and Sheeba (4 yr
Rotty X)
"My two dogs barked insanely when someone would
go past. With this little machine they quietened right
down, and even became partly obedient, and we did
nothing!
Great stuff.
We ran it only on the lowest setting, too!"
- Ed, 65, on his two male Dobermans, 5 yrs old.
Well I have some more, and am collecting more,
but I only have one machine so its a slow process.
Once again I say thank you Jerry! My family was
on the verge of giving them up! :(
But no longer :)
=====================
From: Nevyn (ali...@wasp.net.au)
Subject: Newsgroups: rec. pets. dogs. behavior
Date: 2002-03-01 03:15:50 PST
Hello
I have two mongrel females; the breeds exactly are Blue
Heeler (spots) x Kelpi (dominant genes) x American Pitbull
(behavioural) x Pug (don't laugh!).
They are gentle loving dogs when I'm at home with them, and
they are friendly with unknown people. They are sisters. One
is obviously dominant over the other, and I don't have a problem
with that, however;
Their behaviour is very odd. Some days they are very good
whilst I'm walking them, some days they are not. They are 3
years old and have only been walking for about 12 months
because my mom didn't walk them and now I'm home so I walk
them for about an hour and half every afternoon. I take
them to the park where they chase birds and swim in the lake.
This is my problem :
The less-dominant dog viscously barks at every other dog we
walk past; I have tried using a stick and giving her a tap when
she does it, and treating her with treats when she doesn't,
using a choke chain, a muzzle and a thing that sprays stuff
in her mouth when she barks.
She won't stop! Does anyone know how I can stop her? ]
Also, the more-dominant dog seems to know this is WRONG, when
the other dog barks, she doesn't bark, but she nips at the other
dog as if telling her to cut it out, and then the barking one
attacks the more-dominant one and they fight on the leash... it
is quite disturbing to the people walking past.
And also the more-dominant one is okay around other
dogs... SOMETIMES... sometimes she completely ignores them,
and yet other times she will attack them, like yesterday. The
less dominant one I must keep on a leash if a person brings
there dog to the park.
How do I stop them attacking other dogs? I have tried all the
methods I have used above for 10 months every afternoon. Is it
just a pac k-behaviour thing?
It can really be quite embarrassing when your dogs
attack some old lady's or little girl's dog.
They are good dogs, when at home or when there are no other
dogs around. Today there were hundreds of sparrows flying
around the park and they were chasing them and jumping up
trying to catch them for more than 90 minutes (They went
straight to bed when I bought them home!). Can anyone help
me? Email me at my emails address, ali...@wasp.net.au coz
this list is tooo crowded.
Thanks,
Nevyn
=======================
Lucy wrote:
> > It's the same puppy that is now my perfect dog [...]
"It is by muteness that a dog becomes
so utterly beyond value."
Like a confessor Priest?
"With him, words play no torturing tricks..., "
--John Galsworthy.
Don't bet your dog won't tell on you...
Their behaviors reflect
HOWER words, actions and training quirks.
Jerry HOWE, The Puppy Wizard. <{} ; ~ ) >
> In other words, your puppy grew up.
Within a few minutes?
Outstanding growing up process this must have been, to
occur after repeating just a few times the dreaded praise
for bad behavior!
Lucy
"As Sam Corson (Pavlov's last student) demonstrated for
nearly 50 years at Ohio University (Oxford, O.) there is
no treatment more useful for dogs than tender loving care."
George von Hilsheimer, Ph. D., F. R. S. H., Diplomate,
Academy of Behavioral Medicine.
"A cheerful heart is good medicine,
but a crushed spirit dries up the bones".
Proverbs 17:22
Blessed are all who take refuge in HIM.
Jerry 21 And unto this people thou shalt say,
Thus saith the LORD Of DOG;
Behold, I set before you
The Way Of Life,
And
The Way Of Death.
And Disciple Paulie said unto them, Thus shall ye
say to your master, Thus saith The LORD Of DOG,
Be not afraid of the words which thou hast heard,
with which the servants of koehler and university
trained behaviorists and veterinary malpracticioners
have blasphemed me.
Disciple Paulie Sez:
"No One Understands How Wits End Training Really Works,
They Assume It's All Nicey Nicey And don't Realise It's A
Very
Disciplined Method That Deals With Any Situation And The
Foundation Is Built On Trust And Understanding.
I've never forced my dogs to do anything, I tell them they
are
good dogs and they seem to follow me, once I told them they
were bad dogs and they ran away from me, now I only ever
tell them they are good dogs and they always are, always.
Trust your dog, ask it to do your request and say "good dog"
sincerely at the end of the request and I bet you'll find your
dog thinking then responding everytime.
A bit of respect works wonders, the same rule applies
to every aspect of the relationship with your dog.
Obedience and affection are not related, if they were
everyone would have obedient dogs.
I have found giving dogs "payment" in advance i.e. "Sam
sit goodboy" makes the dogs want to respond, after all, all
dogs want to be "good dogs" and if you tell them they are
good then they feel an obligation to obey your request.
Telling Sam he's a good dog AFTER he sit's apart from
been too late is also a gamble because if he doesn't
sit then there's no positive interaction.
Paul
"Think not that I am come to send peace on earth:
I came not to send peace,
but a sword.
"For I am come to set a man at variance against his father,
and the daughter against her mother,
the daughter in law against her mother in law
and the scholar against his professors.
"And a man's foes shall be they of his own HOWEshold."
The Puppy Prophet <{); ~ ) >
All truth passes through three stages.
First, it is ridiculed.
Second, it is violently opposed.
Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.
-Arthur Schopenhauer
"Thank you for fighting the fine fight--
even tho it's a hopeless task,
in this system of things.
As long as man is ruling man,
there will be animals (and humans!)
abused and neglected. :-(
Your student," Juanita.
"If you've got them by the balls their hearts
and minds will follow,"
John Wayne.
Yours,
Jerry Howe,
Director of Research,
Animal Behavior Forensic
Sciences Research Laboratory,
BIOSOUND Scientific,
Director of Training,
Wits' End Dog Training
1611 24th St
Orlando, FL 32805
Phone: 1-407-425-5092
The Amazing Puppy Wizard <{) ; ~ ) >
ANY QUESTIONS, DUMMIES?
,-._,-,
V)"(V
(_o_) Have a great day!
/ V)
(l l l) Your Puppy Wizard. <{YPW) ; ~ } >
oo-oo
("`-''-/").___..--''"`-._
`6_ 6 ) `-. ( ).`-.__.`)
(_Y_.)' ._ ) `._ `. ``-..-'
_..`--'_..-_/ /--'_.' ,'
(((' (((-((('' ((((
|\ _.-'~~""'~`'~)
/, ~-,__,,,.'~ ,-;;--''
|,4) ./ ' ; ;/'
'-~~;'@ ( ; ;
_.--'' _.-_..' .;.'
(,_..----''' (,..--''
Meow
/\_/\
(='.'=)
(")_(")
/),,/)
( ' ; ') kiss me
(,,)-(,,)
/),,/)
(' ; ') kiss me here
(,,)-(,,)
/),,/)
( ; ' ) kiss me here
(,,)-(,,)
/),,/)
( ; ) kiss me here
(,,)-(,,)
/)
( * ) and KISS ME HERE!
(,,)-(,,)
The Amazing Pussy Wizard <{@); ~ } >
<{#}: ~ } >8< { ~ :{@}>
<{#}: ~ } > < { ~ :{@}>
<{#}: ~ } > < { ~ :{@}>
<{#}: ~ } > http://www.tinyurl.com/7bl5u < { ~ :{@}>
<{#}: ~ } > < { ~ :{@}>
<{#}: ~ } > < { ~ :{@}>
<{#}: ~ } >8< { ~ :{@}>
Please DON'T BE The Amazing Pussy Wizard's PREY.
IT AIN'T PRETTY.
<(@}; ~ } >
lucy...@claque.net
> On Thu, 09 Feb 2006 14:56:09 -0500, Handsome Jack Morrison
> <handsomeja...@thedetonatorearthlink.net> wrote:
>
> >On Thu, 09 Feb 2006 13:43:40 -0500, Janet B
> ><ja...@bestfriendsdogobedience.com> wrote:
> >
> >>On 9 Feb 2006 10:35:52 -0800, "bet...@nospam.goaway.con"
> >><bet...@aol.com>, clicked their heels and said:
> >>
> >>>
> >>>I have to admit that much of what I read of this incident came from
> >>>someone with a no e-collars agenda. However, there were some e-collar
> >>>trainers there that found the whole wrong dog being stimmed
> >>>distasteful.
> >>
> >>although i think that person has also changed her mind about the tool,
> >>but still feels the way about the "fried" incident, as you pointed
> >>out, some e-collar trainers do as well.
> []
>
> Janet, I have just spoken with "the horse." And here's the story of
> what happened, according to Fred. The incident you described did in
> fact happen, and it was indeed a mistake. The dog it happened to was
> Fred's own dog, Sarah, while he was working with another dog.
>
> He uses the story to illustrate to people that, while an e-collar can
> indeed be misused, even if by accident, it's not unrecoverable. He
> brought Sarah immediately out of her crate, her tail was wagging, she
> wanted to work, and Fred even demonstrated how easily Sarah returned
> to the crate afterwards. Really, it *wasn't* that big of a deal.
Oh, wasn't it? Just because she was back to "normal", in no time?
I remember a horrifying account of how a little dog was tortured to
death by four young men, who did this just for "fun". They even
video-taped the killing. The detail that impressed me the most was
this:
<<Each time that they would hurt him he would run away, only to turn
and run back to them for help and protection from the very abuses they
were subjecting him to!>>
I couldn't understand WHY on earth would the little dog return to his
torturers, why didn't he just run away from them for good; was it what
in humans is known as "learned helplessness", which makes victims of
severe abuse to stop trying to escape, even when escape IS possible?
Was it some dog weirdness, that makes this animal so human-dependent
that it goes against its self-preservation instinct?
Anyway, this horrible story has taught me one thing: never to trust
that "it's no big deal", just because the dog seems to put up with it.
> As an e-collar trainer yourself, you know that radio frequencies in
> multi-dog settings can and do get screwed up, no matter what
> precautions you take, and when it does happen, it's not the end of the
> world.
>
> Now, he also told more me about the writer. And precisely what
> happened at the seminar she was at where Fred told this story. Fred
> doesn't think that she had an agenda, but that she's just a wincer.
> She walked out after 6 dogs had been worked (out of about 40 dogs
> there for the demo). She was the only one who did. Number 6 was a huge
> Rotty, and he made a crying sound, just like he usually does when
> being worked, even without a collar. The dog was owned by someone who
> was already being trained by one of Fred's students. This owner is
> apparently on that same list, and apparently tried to explain all this
> to the writer of your snippet.
>
> There was also a Leonberger there, but the letter writer didn't say
> anything about what happened with it. When Fred requested the
> Leonberger from the audience, the dog's owner was hesitant, and said
> her dog was just a show dog, blah blah blah. Fred asked her to walk
> the dog up to him anyway, and she did. The dog was scared, tail a
> dragging, cowering, etc.
>
> This was BEFORE ANYTHING EVEN HAPPENED!
>
> Fred finally convinced her to let him put a collar on her, and within
> a few minutes he was wagging his tail, heeling sprightly, etc. The
> dog's owner was amazed, and loves the e-collar, and she's also
> mentioned *that* to your writer on the very same list.
>
> Fred also asked me to remind you to take a look at all the dogs in one
> of your own classes, and carefully observe their reactions when *you*
> walk over and work them for the first time. No matter what kind of
> class, whether it's regarding e-collars, prongs, flats, etc. How many
> times have you had a dog immediately lay down, or slump over, or roll
> over, or even cry out, etc., simply because you put a collar on it, or
> attached a leash to the collar, for the very first time? I think the
> answer to that should be "Pretty often, now that I think about it" if
> you train very many dogs, and I think you do.
>
> But you work through it, don't you? And within a short time, the dog
> starts to respond favorably, etc. Again, their initial response
> wasn't such a big deal after all, was it?
Let me ask you, what IS a big deal, in your opinion? If a crying dog is
something to be ignored, IS there anything that would make you stop and
consider the possibility that MAYBE what you're doing is not entirely
right?
Lucy
lucy...@claque.net
> On Thu, 09 Feb 2006 09:39:24 -0500, Janet B
> <ja...@bestfriendsdogobedience.com> wrote:
>
> >On Thu, 09 Feb 2006 09:32:21 -0500, Handsome Jack Morrison
> ><handsomeja...@thedetonatorearthlink.net>, clicked their heels
> >and said:
> >
> >>>Besides the fact that he reminds me of a used car salesman,
> >>
> >>Why???
> >
> >He points to his website a lot and doesn't actually enter into
> >training discussion. He's all about self-promotion. More power to
> >him in many ways, but still.
>
> What's wrong with pointing to his web site, Janet? Don't you do that
> yourself?
What Janet is apparently saying is that you're not supposed to SAY it
in so many words. Especially when you're not so good with the written
word, I guess.
> He once participated quite extensively *here,* but got worn down by
> all the morons, like Alison, Lucy, Diana, etc.
Please. I don't remember ever having talked to him, or about him. Until
right now.
> His pain tolerance,
> and patience with bimbos, isn't the equivalent of, say, mine. Or
> yours, for that matter.
He seems to be quite a sensitive little flower, this friend of yours -
when it comes to HIS pain tolerance. Perhaps he should increase his
pain tolerance by learning from his dogs?
> Communicating with the written word isn't something that Fred is very
> good at, and he knows it.
Translation: he is illiterate.
> But he still participates on several mail
> lists, with other professional trainers.
>
> >>>There have also been some (well witnessed) recollections of some of
> >>>his seminars, with some poor use of the collar,
> >>
> >>For example?
> >
> >Stimming the wrong dog. When the dog being worked wasn't responding,
> >turning up the stim a great deal and winding up giving high stims to a
> >crated dog.
>
> I think that's a crock of crap, Janet.
Well, Fred seems to have proven you wrong, Jack.
> Was this Fred himself doing
> the seminar? He's always been pretty damn careful about things like
> that. I can't even imagine Fred turning up the stim, much less
> stimming the wrong dog.
It only shows that you have a pretty limited imagination, Jack.
> >>And were they even in a position to judge? If they were at a seminar,
> >>I have to assume that they are mostly inexperienced with the proper
> >>use of an e-collar?
> >
> >More than one person, some more versed than others.
>
> They don't sound like they were really qualified to judge anyone, IMO,
> and especially to know what was *really* going on.
Unlike you, who have NO idea whatsoever about what went on there; which
doesn't prevent you to pass judgment on it, anyway.
> Fred's one of the best e-collar trainers out there, (no one is as good
> as I am, of course), and I have nothing but great respect for his
> abilities.
>
> >>>and his reaction makes me queasy.
> >>
> >>What reaction?
> >
> >That it was no big deal.
>
> What was no big deal? His reaction to stimming the wrong dog? Maybe
> his lack of a reaction was because there really wasn't anything to
> react to?
Screaming dogs are nothing to react to, right.
> >I think it is. I think anyone using
> >anything of power should be very sure of where that power is pointed.
> >>Why wasn't their fairness?
>
> I'm still not sure what you mean by fairness, Janet.
http://onlinedictionary.datasegment.com/word/fairness
fairness
n 1: conformity with rules or standards; "the judge recognized
the fairness of my claim" [syn: equity] [ant:
unfairness]
2: ability to make judgments free from discrimination or
dishonesty [syn: fair-mindedness, candor, candour]
[ant: unfairness]
3: the property of having a naturally light complexion [syn:
paleness, blondness]
4: the quality of being good looking and attractive [syn:
comeliness, loveliness, beauteousness]
I suppose that Janet didn't have in view the 3rd and 4th meanings,
therefore we're left with the 1st and 2nd.
> Let's say that it did happen, okay? Did the fact that a mistake was
> made indicate a lack of fairness to you?
>
> >>Could you provide me with more specific information, kiddo?
> >>
> >>You're starting to sound like Alison. :)
> >
> >Oh please - no! The crated dog didn't deserve the collar action he
> >got and there didn't seem to be the least bit of regret about it.
>
> Well, it's probably not the first time that the wrong dog has gotten
> stimmed, but Fred uses such low levels of stimulation (especially at
> seminars), it probably really is no big deal.
Yeah, it only makes the dog scream - no big deal.
> >One again, it's kind of like the old comic of Dennis the Menace hitting a
> >baseball and braking Mr Wilson's window. Know where you're aiming.
>
> Oh, come on Janet. You've never seen a dog accidentally get jerked
> around by his leash, say, when the handler wasn't paying attention?
> You've never done it yourself? Did you think it was a big deal?
Janet never jerks a dog.
> Did you automatically think that you weren't being fair?
>
> My advice: Stop talking to Alison!
>
> You're starting to sound like her. :)
Janet, you're about to break the Trainer's First and Most Important
Command:
"Thou shalt never speak ill of another Trainer - even if what you're
saying is nothing but the truth!"
Lucy
Suja
"White Monkey" <k.m.c...@chello.nl> wrote in message:
> But she IS a Dane, and one thing about them is that they sometimes get a
bit
> weird about objects.
A couple of weeks ago, we took the dogs on one of their usual walks.
Must've been there at least a couple of dozen times. But this time, Pan
went all stiff. Hair standing up on her back, she started giving her low
growl, staring at the offender. She barked a good few times, growled in
between, tried everything she could. But the eeevil thing just stood there,
staring right back at her. Good thing it was on the other side of the
creek. The trail we took went across the creek and about 20 ft. away from
the eeevil thing, and she was in full alert mode. While the thing didn't
back down, it didn't attack us either, so her warnings must've worked. She
kept looking back at it, growling, letting it know that she knew that it was
up to no good. The Rock just stood there, staring back, waiting, just
waiting for the next go-around.
> Do I think her breeder slapped an
> e-collar on her and shocked her while showing her rolling papers, marbles,
> chalk marks on the sidewalk, baby gates, and soccer balls, in the 8 weeks
of
> her life
> before I got her? Of course not! Don't be silly.
The way I see it, the torture of Saskia started way before you got her.
Pan's funny with stuff as well, the kite that has been stuck in the tree for
ages, the piece of wood sticking out of the stream, plastic bag stuck in the
brush that is flapping in the wind. All eeevil, and in full attack mode.
Good thing she's keeping an eye out, or who knows what would've happened by
now.
Suja
Melinda Shore
Suja <span...@scs.gmu.edu> wrote:
>The way I see it, the torture of Saskia started way before you got her.
This morning's "Pooch Cafe" seems timely:
http://www.msnbc.com/comics/daily.asp?sFile=pf060210
--
Melinda Shore - Software longa, hardware brevis - sh...@panix.com
Prouder than ever to be a member of the reality-based community.
Janet B
>
>>Janet never jerks a dog.
>
>Anyone who walks a dog REGULARLY will eventually end up having the
>*DOG* yank or jerk the leash (yes, it requires you to actually take
>your pup OUT of his crate from time to time, Lucy). The walker will
>stumble, trip, or have the dog take off after a squirrel, etc. The
>dog might even SCREAM, not neccessarily from pain, but from
>experiencing a kind of "What the fuck?" moment.
Yup! And.... I even purposely pop collars! Why? Because my shoulder
and back are as important as a dog's neck and if he's a brute who
doesn't give a damn that someone is on the other end of the leash,
he'll learn quickly to pay attention to that.
Mary Healey
> start hunkering down somewhere and never go outside. Ever.
Stubbing? Cripes, I've *broken* toes and it's no big deal until you manage
to crack three or more on the same foot at once. A little duct tape and
you're good to go.
Janet B
<handsomeja...@thedetonatorearthlink.net>, clicked their heels
and said:
>
>So if you think stubbing your toe is a big deal, I suggest that you
>start hunkering down somewhere and never go outside. Ever.
Hey - I dropped a cabinet on my big toe a few years ago and wound up
having joint surgery! And I "stubbed" my little toe many years ago,
and managed to split my foot from front to back.
Ok, ok, I'm a class A klutz. But yes, I have bounced back from all
toe-stubbing, even the extreme kind.
steph...@yahoo.com
Hope your toes are ok...Janet.
Alison
> Danes sometimes do, actually. Saskia will if she suspects
> we're heading for the vet (we're nearly over this hurdle
now because the
> last couple of time we went in they DIDN'T need to re-open
her infected
> foot, etc., and I have been taking her past and in just to
give her treats)
> or if she thinks she'll be forced to go somewhere "bad"
like the time the
> animal ambulance people thought they were helping and
grabbed her...
> --Katrina>>
Lots of dogs will do that and a lot worse. It depends on
the dog and the circumstances. That's why dragging a dog
along and especially one you don't know well isn't always a
good idea. They might try to escape by struggling and
panicking or lunge at you.
Alison
>
>
>
Alison
news:1139525017....@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> aww thats alright I will just let Mr. Howe argue with you
guys. He's
> better at it than I am.
> You guys sit and talk and write about what an ASS he is
and how mean
> and nasty the Amazing Puppy Wizard is...and Your the mean
nasty asses.
> You play with peoples words. Honestly I find his writings
humorous and
> why may I ask? Because he's got ya all down to a tee. He
knows how to
> get under your skin and to tell the truth. To bad like he
said no real
> decent human beings are on this forum...>>.
< Snort > I'd love to see him prove I'm a lying thug dog
abuser.
Alison
White Monkey
>> we're heading for the vet (we're nearly over this hurdle
> now because the
>> last couple of time we went in they DIDN'T need to re-open
> her infected
>> foot, etc., and I have been taking her past and in just to
> give her treats)
>> or if she thinks she'll be forced to go somewhere "bad"
> like the time the
>> animal ambulance people thought they were helping and
> grabbed her...
>> --Katrina>>
> Lots of dogs will do that and a lot worse. It depends on
> the dog and the circumstances. That's why dragging a dog
> along and especially one you don't know well isn't always a
> good idea. They might try to escape by struggling and
> panicking or lunge at you.
> Alison
Ummm, sure. I was answering Marcel's comment, which you for some reason
trimmed out, that dogs don't usually rear up out of reluctance to go
forward. It's true that usually they do not, but mine will sometimes do it.
I'm not sure where anyone said anything about dragging a dog along.
--Katrina
lucy...@claque.net
Handsome Jack Morrison wrote:
> On 10 Feb 2006 02:56:19 -0800, lucy...@claque.net wrote:
>
> []
> >> He uses the story to illustrate to people that, while an e-collar can
> >> indeed be misused, even if by accident, it's not unrecoverable. He
> >> brought Sarah immediately out of her crate, her tail was wagging, she
> >> wanted to work, and Fred even demonstrated how easily Sarah returned
> >> to the crate afterwards. Really, it *wasn't* that big of a deal.
> >
> >Oh, wasn't it? Just because she was back to "normal", in no time?
>
> hesitation, etc.
>
> And that she has *continued* to prove that it was no more of a big
> deal than, say, when a person stubs his toe on his bed post in the
> morning, or when a dog yanks his own leash when he takes off after a
> squirrel.
>
> So if you think stubbing your toe is a big deal, I suggest that you
> start hunkering down somewhere and never go outside. Ever.
>
>
> And for crissakes, never, ever go to a retriever field-trial. Where
> you might see dogs *gleefully* charging through briar patches,
> thickets, tumbling down river banks, climbing over fallen trees,
> getting flipped end-over-end by thick brush, swim hundreds of yards
> across mostly frozen lakes and ponds, fast-moving rivers, etc.
>
> And begging for more.
>
> Yet somehow you think a little ol' inadvertant stim is going to have
> some kind of disastrous effect on a dog like that.
You seem to miss the point. There is a lot of pain in the life of every
one of us, dog or human, and we all have to cope with it as best we
can. Sometimes the pain is the price we willingly pay for something
that we want very much - like the retriever who wants to chase the
prey, more than anything else (not to mention the fact that, in the
state the chasing dog is, his body produces morphine-like compounds
that act as pain-killers, which can't be said about the poor dog that
got an electrical stimulation while lying peacefully in her cage).
But there is another aspect here, one that a decent human being would
have no difficulty to notice right away: you are entitled to inflict
upon yourself all the pain you want; you know how much you can and want
to bear and whether it's worthwhile or not. It's your privilege. But
nobody else has the right to cause you on purpose that amount of pain
only because you can bear it. If they did cause it, that would be
torture.
> <boggle>
>
> []
> >> But you work through it, don't you? And within a short time, the dog
> >> starts to respond favorably, etc. Again, their initial response
> >> wasn't such a big deal after all, was it?
> >
> >Let me ask you, what IS a big deal, in your opinion?
>
> >If a crying dog is something to be ignored,
>
> No one here has ever suggested that it should be ignored!
>
> But to dwell on it, like it was akin to some kind of Nazi torture
> regimen, is simply beyond the pale, and the sign of an emotionally
> unstable psyche.
>
> You lack any and all sense of perspective.
So did the three or four trainers who told Janet about the incident, it
seems.
> >IS there anything that would make you stop and
> >consider the possibility that MAYBE what you're doing is not entirely
> >right?
>
> What I'm often doing is saving the life of a dog who was "trained"
> with nothing more than "love and affection," yet somehow finds himself
> abandoned by that same, kindly person because of "issues."
That's a quite common excuse of an abusing parent: "I'm doing it for
the child's own good". Don't buy it.
> Have you ever considered the possibility that MAYBE what *you're*
> doing is not entirely right?
I've never abandoned or put down a dog. My eldest dog is 13 - more than
most of the dogs we hear about here get to live. And when my puppy did
have issues, I looked for help right here (among other places) - and
found a method that worked, WITHOUT ever causing the puppy to scream in
pain.
> E.g., forcing an *8* week old puppy to hold it for *8* hours, locked
> away in his crate?
Nobody's forcing her and she is NOT crated, Jack.
> <spit>
It looks like all this spitting and sighing is an OCD. Perhaps you
should try to get help?
Lucy
Alison
Oh I'm sorry. I added the part about dragging along or
attempting to pull as often the dog does sit or lay down at
first and then rears etc if an attempt is made to move it.
I'll put Marcels comment to Stephstac69 back in.
sighthounds & siberians
>- like the retriever who wants to chase the
>prey, more than anything else
This explains a lot.
Retrievers don't chase prey, Lucy.
Mustang Sally
Janet B
I was thinking the same thing - WOW - Lucy has no idea what dogs of
various breeds DO!
sighthounds & siberians
<ja...@bestfriendsdogobedience.com> wrote:
>On Sat, 11 Feb 2006 10:54:22 -0500, sighthounds & siberians
><x...@ncweb.com>, clicked their heels and said:
>
>>On 11 Feb 2006 07:21:56 -0800, lucy...@claque.net wrote:
>>
>>
>>>- like the retriever who wants to chase the
>>>prey, more than anything else
>>
>>This explains a lot.
>>
>>Retrievers don't chase prey, Lucy.
>
>I was thinking the same thing - WOW - Lucy has no idea what dogs of
>various breeds DO!
Well, of course not; she's of the 'a dog is a dog and a kat is a kat
and a spHOWEse is a spHOWEse' school of lunacy.
Mustang Sally
lucy...@claque.net
Janet B wrote:
> On Sat, 11 Feb 2006 10:54:22 -0500, sighthounds & siberians
> <x...@ncweb.com>, clicked their heels and said:
>
> >On 11 Feb 2006 07:21:56 -0800, lucy...@claque.net wrote:
> >
> >
> >>- like the retriever who wants to chase the
> >>prey, more than anything else
> >
> >This explains a lot.
> >
> >Retrievers don't chase prey, Lucy.
>
> I was thinking the same thing - WOW - Lucy has no idea what dogs of
> various breeds DO!
And that makes a hell of a difference in whether a dog has to be
subjected to pain when being trained, doesn't it? Or do you believe
that if a retriever retrieves there are less endorphines released
during the activity he ENJOYS doing, unlike when he is subjected to
your... "training"?
Are you morally comfortable, Sally, with the screaming dog that Janet
had the kindness to tell us about? And are you reassured now, Janet,
after Jack has learned from the "horse" that actually "it was no big
deal"?
Question for the group: does anyone think that there's something wrong
with making a dog scream during training, or is this something that
routinely happens to all of you with the dogs you train?
Lucy
sighthounds & siberians
>
>Janet B wrote:
>> On Sat, 11 Feb 2006 10:54:22 -0500, sighthounds & siberians
>> <x...@ncweb.com>, clicked their heels and said:
>>
>> >On 11 Feb 2006 07:21:56 -0800, lucy...@claque.net wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> >>- like the retriever who wants to chase the
>> >>prey, more than anything else
>> >
>> >This explains a lot.
>> >
>> >Retrievers don't chase prey, Lucy.
>>
>> I was thinking the same thing - WOW - Lucy has no idea what dogs of
>> various breeds DO!
>
>And that makes a hell of a difference in whether a dog has to be
>subjected to pain when being trained, doesn't it? Or do you believe
>that if a retriever retrieves there are less endorphines released
>during the activity he ENJOYS doing, unlike when he is subjected to
>your... "training"?
It makes a hell of a lot of difference when you are on here arguing
with people about things like prey drive, and saying how easy it is to
train a really high prey drive dog not to chase prey. It also makes a
hell of a lot of difference where your credibility is concerned.
>Are you morally comfortable, Sally, with the screaming dog that Janet
>had the kindness to tell us about? And are you reassured now, Janet,
>after Jack has learned from the "horse" that actually "it was no big
>deal"?
I am not a professional dog trainer. I would not be comfortable
training my dogs with e collars because I don't know anything about
them and don't know how to use them. Also, none of my dogs are
performance dogs; all I need from them is CGC-level obedience, unless
I use them for therapy. Most (certainly not all) greyhounds are
relatively soft, and I use a regular martingale for training. On my
non-sighthounds, I have used choke chains, or whatever you'd like to
call them, in the past, but I prefer prong collars. I have not
personally had a greyhound that required a prong collar, but would use
one if I thought he/I needed it. I have balance and vision problems,
so I cannot tolerate being dragged around by a dog. When I train
dogs, I primarily use luring and positive reinforcement, including
treats, which I gradually fade out. I find treats extremely helpful
with dogs that are food motivated, such as my goat Music, but I don't
like having to have them on my person all the time, and I don't, for
example, reward a dog with a treat each and every time it goes potty
outside. When a dog knows a behavior but ignores my request for that
behavior, I will correct that dog verbally. I have socialized spooky
dogs and taught dogs not to fear thunder. I'm not a trainer, but I
have read many, many books and attended seminars, I have had hands-on
experience with something like 250 dogs in the last 10 years, and I
think I have excellent instincts when it comes to dogs and dog
behavior.
So, that's pretty much my story with respect to training and
equipment. I'm seldom hesitant about speaking my mind, but I don't
generally opine on subjects that I know absolutely nothing about, such
as e collars. You might consider trying that, Lucy.
Mustang Sally
Janet B
heels and said:
I'm not even addressing your lunacy, but the dog in question was not
beign trained - that's the point - the WRONG dog - the dog resting in
a CRATE was the one being stimmed. As far as a dog being worked
vocalizing, well, I've known some dogs who scream when they're looked
at crooked.
sighthounds & siberians
<ja...@bestfriendsdogobedience.com> wrote:
>On 11 Feb 2006 09:35:50 -0800, lucy...@claque.net, clicked their
>heels and said:
>
>>
>>Question for the group: does anyone think that there's something wrong
>>with making a dog scream during training, or is this something that
>>routinely happens to all of you with the dogs you train?
>
>I'm not even addressing your lunacy, but the dog in question was not
>beign trained - that's the point - the WRONG dog - the dog resting in
>a CRATE was the one being stimmed. As far as a dog being worked
>vocalizing, well, I've known some dogs who scream when they're looked
>at crooked.
A little bell is ringing in the recesses of my mind. We've had a
discussion on that, too, does anyone remember? I think it involved
Patch. I had a Drama King dog, the Late Great Zeke. I believe Patch,
or someone, said it just couldn't possibly happen that he would shriek
unless he were being abused.
Mustang Sally
Janet B
<x...@ncweb.com>, clicked their heels and said:
> I believe Patch,
>or someone, said it just couldn't possibly happen that he would shriek
>unless he were being abused.
I think you're right - good ol' Patch.
My friend's GH was a screamer. Not a hand laid on her, but it sounded
like she must be being stabbed with 1,000 daggers. Total drama queen.
sighthounds & siberians
<ja...@bestfriendsdogobedience.com> wrote:
>On Sat, 11 Feb 2006 13:11:34 -0500, sighthounds & siberians
><x...@ncweb.com>, clicked their heels and said:
>
>> I believe Patch,
>>or someone, said it just couldn't possibly happen that he would shriek
>>unless he were being abused.
>
>I think you're right - good ol' Patch.
>
>My friend's GH was a screamer. Not a hand laid on her, but it sounded
>like she must be being stabbed with 1,000 daggers. Total drama queen.
Yep, the breed's full of 'em. Hard to believe that Zeke was a blood
donor, the way he'd act when nothing happened.
Mustang Sally
lucy...@claque.net
sighthounds & siberians wrote:
> On 11 Feb 2006 09:35:50 -0800, lucy...@claque.net wrote:
>
> >
> >Janet B wrote:
> >> On Sat, 11 Feb 2006 10:54:22 -0500, sighthounds & siberians
> >> <x...@ncweb.com>, clicked their heels and said:
> >>
> >> >On 11 Feb 2006 07:21:56 -0800, lucy...@claque.net wrote:
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >>- like the retriever who wants to chase the
> >> >>prey, more than anything else
> >> >
> >> >This explains a lot.
> >> >
> >> >Retrievers don't chase prey, Lucy.
> >>
> >> I was thinking the same thing - WOW - Lucy has no idea what dogs of
> >> various breeds DO!
> >
> >And that makes a hell of a difference in whether a dog has to be
> >subjected to pain when being trained, doesn't it? Or do you believe
> >that if a retriever retrieves there are less endorphines released
> >during the activity he ENJOYS doing, unlike when he is subjected to
> >your... "training"?
>
> It makes a hell of a lot of difference when you are on here arguing
> with people about things like prey drive, and saying how easy it is to
> train a really high prey drive dog not to chase prey. It also makes a
> hell of a lot of difference where your credibility is concerned.
MY credibility has nothing to do with the question I asked. I'm not a
trainer and not pretending to be one. The question I asked was if it's
morally acceptable to inflict pain on another sentient being only
because that sentient being can take it. It has nothing to do with my
knowledge or lack thereof of things canine. It pertains to ethics, not
to expertise in dogs.
> >Are you morally comfortable, Sally, with the screaming dog that Janet
> >had the kindness to tell us about? And are you reassured now, Janet,
> >after Jack has learned from the "horse" that actually "it was no big
> >deal"?
>
> I am not a professional dog trainer. I would not be comfortable
> training my dogs with e collars because I don't know anything about
> them and don't know how to use them.
The dog screams. According to HJM, there is pain that causes her to
scream, but it is "no big deal". Do you agree with this moral stance,
yes or no?
> Also, none of my dogs are
> performance dogs; all I need from them is CGC-level obedience, unless
> I use them for therapy. Most (certainly not all) greyhounds are
> relatively soft, and I use a regular martingale for training. On my
> non-sighthounds, I have used choke chains, or whatever you'd like to
> call them, in the past, but I prefer prong collars. I have not
> personally had a greyhound that required a prong collar, but would use
> one if I thought he/I needed it. I have balance and vision problems,
> so I cannot tolerate being dragged around by a dog. When I train
> dogs, I primarily use luring and positive reinforcement, including
> treats, which I gradually fade out. I find treats extremely helpful
> with dogs that are food motivated, such as my goat Music, but I don't
> like having to have them on my person all the time, and I don't, for
> example, reward a dog with a treat each and every time it goes potty
> outside. When a dog knows a behavior but ignores my request for that
> behavior, I will correct that dog verbally. I have socialized spooky
> dogs and taught dogs not to fear thunder. I'm not a trainer, but I
> have read many, many books and attended seminars, I have had hands-on
> experience with something like 250 dogs in the last 10 years, and I
> think I have excellent instincts when it comes to dogs and dog
> behavior.
>
> So, that's pretty much my story with respect to training and
> equipment.
Interesting, but irrelevant. Is it morally acceptable to you to cause
pain to a dog as part of his training (by whatever means you want)? A
simple "Yes" or "No" would suffice.
> I'm seldom hesitant about speaking my mind, but I don't
> generally opine on subjects that I know absolutely nothing about, such
> as e collars. You might consider trying that, Lucy.
I might, if e-collars were the issue here. They aren't.
Lucy.
lucy...@claque.net
Janet B wrote:
> On 11 Feb 2006 09:35:50 -0800, lucy...@claque.net, clicked their
> heels and said:
>
> >
> >Question for the group: does anyone think that there's something wrong
> >with making a dog scream during training, or is this something that
> >routinely happens to all of you with the dogs you train?
>
> I'm not even addressing your lunacy, but the dog in question was not
> beign trained - that's the point - the WRONG dog - the dog resting in
> a CRATE was the one being stimmed.
The dog was not being trained AT THAT PARTICULAR MOMENT. I suppose she
was trained by the same method, though, since she WAS wearing an
e-collar. Unless she was wearing it because "it's puuuuuurty".
> As far as a dog being worked
> vocalizing, well, I've known some dogs who scream when they're looked
> at crooked.
Thank you.
Lucy
sighthounds & siberians
>Interesting, but irrelevant. Is it morally acceptable to you to cause
>pain to a dog as part of his training (by whatever means you want)? A
>simple "Yes" or "No" would suffice.
Actually, a simple "yes" or "no" wouldn't suffice as an answer to that
question, so I'm going to ignore it, much the same as you do.
>I might, if e-collars were the issue here. They aren't.
You wouldn't, no matter what, more's the pity.
Mustang Sally
lucy...@claque.net
> On 11 Feb 2006 10:59:05 -0800, lucy...@claque.net wrote:
>
> >Interesting, but irrelevant. Is it morally acceptable to you to cause
> >pain to a dog as part of his training (by whatever means you want)? A
> >simple "Yes" or "No" would suffice.
>
> Actually, a simple "yes" or "no" wouldn't suffice as an answer to that
> question, so I'm going to ignore it, much the same as you do.
Well, refusing to answer IS an answer, too. Thank you.
Lucy
sighthounds & siberians
Uh huh, I figured you'd say that. Declining to answer a question in
the fashion in which you've demanded that it be answered is not an
answer. If you choose to put words in people's mouths when they don't
want to play by your rules, that says far more about you than it does
about them.
Mustang Sally
Susan Fraser
>e-collars. ....
>OTOH, I'm glad I've read, watched, learned. Some of my impressions
>and assumptions were not on target. My use of one has been a really
>good thing, for both myself and my dog. It has allowed for more
>freedom and enjoyment of something he truly loves, but needed to learn
>to play by the rules, and accomplished such in the most humane and
>stressless way.
Hello, Janet ;) We've all read, watched and learned an awful lot
through the years, huh? Funny how the worm turns, though. After
expending so much energy and passion defending e-collars here for years
(has it really been so long ago?) my Flyway quit working a while back,
and I threw it in a closet and haven't thought about it since.
Gris-Gris, now over 2 years old, has never even had a dummy collar on.
Why? Well, it was prtly because I gave up field training when I went
back to school. But I didn't give up training all together - I
actually spend just as much or more time training as I ever did - so
that's not entirely it.
I am fortunate that I do have very very drive-y dogs. And now that I
can control what drives them better than I could in field situations, I
just don't have such need to over-ride their hardwired instincts to get
behaviors. Were they prey driven, or just had a wander lust, I'm sure I
would have different priorities.
But Gris-Gris is a dervish on the agility course. She sometimes gets
just a teeny tiny little bit out of control <guffaw> but gawd almighty,
when she puts it together, it's breathtaking. I just simply haven't
needed a remote training device on her except for maybe targets...
And I also don't feel a need to use birds to train any longer. As I get
older, I have to admit that the days my bred-to-retrieve dogs will get
to indulge their hardwired proclivities in finding downed game will
probably be few and far between. In a perfect world, all kids would
have the opportunity, the wild game and the untamed land on which to
venture out armed and kill their dinner. As an ex-biology teacher, when
it comes to learning about the food chain and the circle of life, a
hunting dog is a much superior mentor to a classroom.
But since I began a "kinder, gentler" sort of training (and I'm
speaking mostly of the wear and tear on ME!) I have been happier, more
relaxed, more cheerful. I laugh at my girls' antics more and try to be
in control of them less. We have had our share of success, and we crash
and burn rather spectacularly often as well. I revel in both.
I suppose Katrina cemented in some of these changed attitudes - there's
too much out of our control to obsess on absolute perfection. As my
favorite t-shirt says, sometimes you just gotta "Go With The
Contraflow". -)
I could have gone the other way had I been a mainstream doggy trainer
who got progressively more focused and controlling and then stepped up
to the big leagues, but I find it appropros that I'm going backwards.
My claim to fame now is that I have consistently the fastest dog in her
class who is as entertaining to watch for her joyous bloopers as for
her spectacular clean runs. ;-)
It's worth the occasional loss of control to have the priveledge of
being a part of her intense joy de vivre.
That said, I would NEVER be able to get a handle on a dog this drivey
if I did not have the years and years of practice at timing and
motivation and breaking down behaviors into components and chaining and
back chaininag, etc that using the e-collar taught me.
Without a doubt, we are all exctly where we need to be at this time in
order to grow and learn what we need to know to be happy.
In other words, "I'm glad I reminded myself of some of my close-minded
ideas, and glad
that I'm a confident enough person to allow myself to open my mind and
learn. Sure wish others could undertand what that really means. "
Thanks for the education, Janet et al.
Susan and the AuH2Ok9s
HR BeBop a Lu SheBop SH,
HR Shamma Lamma Ding Dong CDX MH OA NAJ,
and Gris-Gris Gumbo Ya Ya NA (<--- brand shiny new *virgin* title, the
first time in print!)
AnimalBehaviorForensicSc...@hushmail.com
(did The Amazing Puppy Wizard SPELL that correctly, tommy?) aka
tommy sorenson aka DOGMAN,
Where is DOGMAN these days, tommy?
Handsome Jack Morrison wrote:
> On 11 Feb 2006 07:21:56 -0800, lucy...@claque.net wrote:
>
> []
> >> Yet somehow you think a little ol' inadvertant stim
>From your 100 levels of medical grade static like stimulatin collars,
tommy?
> >> is going to have some kind of disastrous effect on a dog like that.
Naaah, not at all, tommy. Perhaps you'd like to participate in The
Amazing Puppy Wizard's "BET THE FARM" dual tuned shock collar test,
eh tommy?
> >You seem to miss the point.
Not likely, tommy. Lucy has PROVEN it for herself <{): ~ ) >
> Actually, it's the other way around.
INDEEDY. EVERY THING we've been taught by HOWER EXXXPERT university
trained behaviorists, veterinary malpracticioners and ETHICKAL BREEDERS
and professional trainers is 100% PRECISELY EXXXACTLY OPPOSITE of HOWE
it really IS, isn't that correct, tommy sorenson of sorenson's
Retrievers
and cock fighting farm, MO, USA <{); ~ ) >
> I don't give a shit what you think.
You mean on accHOWENT Of you're an anonymHOWES coward, tommy?
> That's my point.
Is THAT HOWE COME you've set your INFORMATIVE posts to EXXXPIRE in six
days, tommy?
> > There is a lot of pain in the life of every one of us, dog or human,
INDEEDY. The Amaing Puppy Wizard has INCREASED the level of:
"Reliable Punishment Cycles, Different Thresholds To Pain
And Punishment, High Tolerance For Correction, Escalation
Of Correction To A Level Where The Dog Yelps When You Punish
Him, Thus Making The Experience One Which The Dog Will Want
To Avoid In The Future," grant teeboon, RAAF.
> > and we all have to cope with it as best we can.
INDEEDY. THAT'S HOWE COME some of HOWER dog lovers have had
PSYCHOTIC REACTIONS and WHOWEND UP in MENTAL HOWEspital from
just simply readin their own FREE COPY of The Amazing Puppy
Wizard's 100% CONSISTENTLY NEARLY INSTANTLY SUCCESSFUL FREE
WWW Wits' End Dog Training Method Manual:
WELCOME To The Amazing Puppy Wizard's 100% CONSISTENTLY NEARLY
INSTANTLY SUCCESSFUL FREE WWW Wits' End Dog Training Method
Forums. I'm Jerry Howe, The Amazing Puppy Wizard <{) ; ~ ) >
Here's your own FREE COPY of The Amazing Puppy Wizard's 100%
CONSISTENTLY NEARLY INSTANTLY SUCCESSFUL FREE WWW
Wits' End Dog Training Method Manual <{) : ~ } >
<{#}: ~ } >8< { ~ :{@}>
<{#}: ~ } > < { ~ :{@}>
<{#}: ~ } > < { ~ :{@}>
<{#}: ~ } > http://www.tinyurl.com/7bl5u < { ~ :{@}>
<{#}: ~ } > < { ~ :{@}>
<{#}: ~ } > < { ~ :{@}>
<{#}: ~ } >8< { ~ :{@}>
Read it an GO BONKERS, dog lovers!
> And that's just one of the things I teach dogs to do,
> i.e., to cope with all the goings-on of life.
You mean like your STUDENT'S dog who ATTACKED HIM when
loadin IT into his truck to visit you for another SHOCK
COLLAR lesson, tommy? Or do you mean like HOWE you heelped
kwbrown's DEAD DOG to accept groomin, eh tommy?
> So that they can go anywhere, anytime, anyplace.
You mean like their livin rooms like HOWE you taught Robert
Crim's DEAD DOG Fritz The Wonder Dog and laura arlov's DEAD
DOG Chewie, tommy?
> And enjoy all the things that dogs enjoy doing.
Like getttin jerked choked shocked locked in boxes ignored
when they cry or sprayed in the face with aversives hung,
alphalpha rolled and bitten on their ears, beaten with sticks
or a heavy man's leather belt and MURDERED when they OBJECT
to your TRAININ, tommy?
> > Sometimes the pain
You mean OTHER critter's PAIN, Lucy.
> > is the price we willingly pay for something that we want very much -
Like owning a well trained dog, eh Lucy?
> > like the retriever who wants to chase the prey,
PRAY drive is inherent in ALL canines, despite that the so
called Retriever dog ONLY RETRIEVES, Lucy. You gotta be
careful with your TERMINALology othreWIZE you'll CONfHOWEND
the EXXXPRTS and professional scientists we're dealin with
here abHOWETS <{); ~ ) >
> > more than anything else (not to mention the fact that, in the
> > state the chasing dog is, his body produces morphine-like compounds
> > that act as pain-killers, which can't be said about the poor dog that
> > got an electrical stimulation while lying peacefully in her cage).
INDEEDY. Hence the INCREASE in body temp to 106F:
Amy Dahl LIES with a straight face and says:
I don't beat dogs, twist ears, or pinch toes.
http://www.oakhillkennel.com/library/force/force1.html
http://www.oakhillkennel.com/library/force/force2.html
> One of the things we must all learn (humans and dogs) if we're going
> to be able to cope with the normal goings-on in life, is to learn how
> to differentiate between the small stuff and the BIG STUFF(!).
LIKE THIS:
lyingfrostydahly: ">>>Get a stick 30- or 40-inches long. You
can have a helper wield the stick, or do it yourself. Tougher,
less tractable dogs may require you to progress to striking
them more sharply.>>> With your hand on the collar and ear,
say, "fetch." Immediately tap the dog on the hindquarters
with the stick. Repeat "fetch" and pinch the ear all the way
to the dummy. Repeat, varying how hard you hit the dog,>>>"
">>>Now you are ready to progress to what most people think of as
force-fetching: the ear pinch.>>> "but will squeal, thrash around,
and direct their efforts to escaping the ear pinch>>> You can press
the dog's ear with a shotshell instead of your thumb;>>> even get a
studded collar and pinch the ear against that>>> Make the dog's need
to stop the pinching so urgent that resisting your will fades in
importance.>>> Say "fetch" while pressing the dummy against its lips
and pinching its ear.>>> the dog still does not open its mouth, get
out the shotshell. Try pinching the ear between the metal casing and
the collar, even the buckle on the collar. Persist! Eventually, the
dog will give in>>>"
>>> chuck (for the uninitiated, "chuck" means strike) the dog under
the chin with your ever-ready right hand while saying "No!">>> If
the dog drops it, chuck it solidly under the chin, say "No! Hold!">>>
use a chuck under the chin or pinch its ear and place the dummy in
its mouth. If it doesn't make rapid progress, you can increase the
pressure by requiring it to pick up the dropped dummy (stay on the
ear until it does).>>> (perhaps because the ear is getting tender,
or the dog has decided it isn't worth it).>>> pinch its ear and say,
"fetch,">>>
Here we have consistency and a plea for reason, directly in
contradiction to the blackman and white facts signed and published
by our expert trainer... Accordingly, the consistency of constant
repetitions of your requests for understanding and compliance from
your dogs, dictates that YOU WILL GET IT, so long as you are consistent
and keep repeating the exact same scenario, no matter what... Including
and especially when you calculatedly and intentionally deny the truth
and make your requests seem reasonable.
> A lot of dogs are ill-prepared to do that. So are a lot of humans.
CuriHOWES THAT, AIN'T IT?:
"Loop the lead (it's basically a GIANT nylon or leather
choke collar) over his snarly little head, and give him a
stern correction" --Janet Boss
"Reliable Punishment Cycles, Different Thresholds To Pain
And Punishment, High Tolerance For Correction, Escalation
Of Correction To A Level Where The Dog Yelps When You Punish
Him, Thus Making The Experience One Which The Dog Will Want
To Avoid In The Future," grant teeboon, RAAF.
"Well, Jack Did Hit My Dog. Actually I'd Call It
A Sharp Tap Of The Crook To The Nose. I Know Jack
Wouldn't Have Done It If He Thought Solo Couldn't
Take It. I Still Crate Him Because Otherwise I Fear
He Might Eat My Cat," melanie.
captain arthur haggerty SEZ: "A CHIN CHUCK" Makes A
ResoundingSound Distraction: "When You Chuck The Dog
The Sound Will Travel Up The Mandible To The Ears And
Give A Popping Sound To The Dog."
"Many People Have Problems Getting The Pinch
Right, Either They Do Not Pinch Enough, Or They
Have A Very Stoic Dog. Some Dogs Will Collapse
Into A Heap. About The Ear Pinch: You Must Keep
The Pressure Up," sindy "don't let the dog SCREAM"
mooreon, author of HOWER FAQ's pages on k9 web.
> I make sure that my dogs are prepared.
You mean you CONDITION them to bein jerked choked shocked
locked in boxes and ignored or sprayed in the face with
aversives. LIKE THIS:
"Granted That The Dog Who Fears Retribution
Will Adore His Owner," lying "I LOVE KOEHLER"
lynn.
lyinglynn writes to a new foster care giver:
For barking in the crate - leave the leash on and
pass it through the crate door. Attach a line to
it. When he barks, use the line for a correction.-
if necessary, go to a citronella bark collar," Lynn K.
"Training is not confrontation,"Lynn K.
<except when it is>
"Unfortunately, some confrontation is necessary,
just to be able to handle the dogs. For example,
we need to crate train a dog immediately because
they are usually in need of medical care and they
are in foster homes with other dogs. It's a safety
necessity," lying "I LOVE KOEHLER" lynn.
"Training is not confrontation,"Lynn K.
<except when it is>
"So what? Whoever said that it's right to
always not confront? We sure can try, but
a dog who knows a command and growls when
given it is certainly being confrontational".
You can't simply walk away and pretend it
didn't happen or leave it for later work in
every situation." Lynn K.
--------------------
"I used to work the Kill Room as a volunteer in
one shelter.) But their ability to set their own
schedules and duties causes a great deal of
scheduling overhead.
And it takes effort and thought to ensure that
volunteers get the meaningful experience that
they work for.
Someone has to be responsible for that
Volunteer Program, and it is best done
by a non-volunteer."
Lynn K.
----------------
"Warning: Sometimes The Corrections Will Seem
Quite Harsh And Cause You To Cringe. This Is A
Normal Reaction The First Few Times It Happens,
But You'll Get Over It."mike duforth, author:
"Courteous Canine."
On 6 Feb 2006 17:41:08 GMT, Mary Healey <mhhe...@iastate.edu>,
clicked their heels and said:
> Does that include tone of voice? Some tools are easier
> to ban than others.
yes - screaming banshees are told to shut up! And I
always have to remind spouses that they may NOT do the
"honey - you're supposed to be doing it like THIS"......
--
Janet B
www.bestfriendsdogobedience.com
"J1Boss" <j1b...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040324071828...@mb-m18.aol.com...
> He was next to me and I could see his neck
> muscles pulsing. He didn't even blink an eye.
> Janet Boss
>
"sionnach" <rhyfe...@msn.com> wrote in message
news:c3qi15$2biuoh$1...@ID-45033.news.uni-berlin.de...
> "J1Boss" <j1b...@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:20040323173916...@mb-m17.aol.com...
> > > I can't imagine needing anything higher
> > > than a 5 with it, even with an insensitive
> > > dog like a Lab.
An INSENSITIVE DOG???
> > I can't remember what model of Innotek I have, but
> > I had a pointer ignore a neck-muscle-pulsing 9.
"Chin CHUCK absolutely doesn't mean slap,"
professora gingold.
"BethF" <b...@NOT-SO-bad-dawgs-in-ak.com>
wrote in message
news:v4r8kkf...@corp.supernews.com...
Kyle, FWIW, i thought it was pretty funny,
and i often call my little dog the turd, because
he is one. Some folks think its HORRRIBLE i
would insult my dog like that so i guess its just a
matter of personality.
Kyle, the best way to teach him to stay away is to
step on him once. Seriously.
"Whatever Motivates The Dog, But I Daresay Most
Of The Dogs I Have In Classes Just Aren't That
Interested In Praise."
"BethF" <d...@alaska.com> wrote in message
news:uohnj3r...@corp.supernews.com...
Maybe that's what we should do - hold back the dobie
girl so that Izzy can put Simon in his place.
"After Numerous Training Classes, Behavioral
Consultations, And Hundreds Of Dollars In Vet
Bills, I Killed My Dalmatian Several Years Ago
Due To Extreme Dog-Aggressiveness," mustang sally.
"I'll bet you don't know a thing about me.
I volunteered as assistant to the euthanasia
tech at our local shelter for a while, and
I know a bit about overpopulation and unwanted
animals.
This however has nothing at all to do with
responsible breeders, because responsible
breeders don't contribute to that problem,"
Mustang Sally.
----------
> And I make sure that my children are, too.
INDEEDY!:
A DOG Is A Dog;
As A KAT Is A KAT;
As A BIRDY Is A BIRDY;
As A CHILD IS A CHILD;
As A SP-HOWES Is a SP-HOWES;
As A Mass Murderer Is A Mass Murderer.
ALL Critters Only Respond In
PREDICTABLE INNATE NORMAL NATURAL
INSTINCTIVE REFLEXIVE Ways;
To Situations And Circumstances Of Their Environment
Which We Create For Them.
The Methods, Principles, And Philosophy Of Behavior
Never Change,
Or They'd Not Be Scientific
And Could Not Obtain
Consistent, Reliable, Fast, Safe Effective Results
For All Handler's And All Dogs,
ALL OVER THE WHOLE WILD WORLD,
NEARLY INSTANTLY,
As Taught In Your FREE Copy Of The Puppy Wizard's
FREE WWW Wits' End Dog Training Method Manual.
In The Problem Animal Behavior BUSINESS
FAILURE MEANS DEATH.
SAME SAME SAME SAME,
For The Problem Child Behavior BUSINESS.
Damn The Descartean War of "Nature Vs Nurture."
We Teach By HOWER Words And Actions
And GET BACK What We TAUGHT.
> > But there is another aspect here, one that a decent human being would
DECENT PEOPLE DO NOT POST HERE abHOWETS, Lucy <{): ~ ( >
> > have no difficulty to notice right away: you are entitled to inflict
> > upon yourself all the pain you want; you know how much you can and want
> > to bear and whether it's worthwhile or not.
If you'll look up the thread on DENTAL PAIN you'll SEE that
HOWER DOG LOVERS FEAR goin to the DENTIST almost as much as
they FEAR replying to The Amazing Puppy Wizard and HIS HURTFUL
Posts QUOTING THEIR OWN LIES ABUSES and CASE HISTORIES of MENTAL
ILLNESS and HURTIN INTIMIDATING and MURDERIN defenseless dumb
critters an LYIN abHOWET it <{) ; ~ ) >
> Here's yet another aspect to consider,
That you're a anonymHOWES lyin dog abusing punk thug coward, tommy?
SHOWE US YOUR KENNEL DOGS, eh tommy? HOWE COME you REFUSE to ADMIT
who you really ARE, despite that you got STIFF an FORGOT to change
your computer screen name and POSTED from tommy sorenson's kennel
computer as DOGMAN, eh tommy?
> and an aspect shared by essentially all mentally stable individuals
You mean DENYING WHO THEY REALLY ARE, tommy? You mean
REFUSING to ADMIT to their own kennel names, tommy?
> who own dogs.
NOT all trainers breeders and dog owners HURT INTIMIDTATE and
MURDER innocent defenseless dumb critters like HOWE you and
your punk thug coward long term active acute chronic long term
incurable mental case pals do an LIE abHOWET it, tommy.
> If I, as a representative of the homo sapiens species,
You're only a nekkid ape, tommy. AND you're a LIAR and dog abusing
MENTAL CASE.
> and designated as the guardian of the canis lupus familiaris species,
THAT MEANS you can jerk choke shock and MURDER them as you PREFER.
> decide that a dog is going to get his nails
> clipped, because of safety or health concerns,
Nail clippin is PAINLESS, tommy, UNLESS you do it wrong <{): ~ ) >
> or his teeth cleaned, because of health concerns,
Dogs DO NOT NEED their teeth cleaned, tommy. Dogs GET dental
DIS-EASE as a DIRECT RESULT of HOWE you ABUSE them, tommy.
Dental DIS-EASE is a STRESS INDUCED AUTO-IMMUNE DIS-EASE
caused by GARBAGE commercial diets and ABUSE, aka The Puppy
Wizard's Syndrome <{): ~ ) >
> or a series of shots, because of health concerns,
90% of ALL DIS-EASE are so called idiopathic / iatrogenic
CAUSED BY EXXXCESSIVE innoculations and traditional veterinary
care and MISHANDLING, tommy <{); ~ ) >
> or an operation, because of health concerns, etc. -
You mean like declawing and surgical sexual mutilation, tommy?
> - it's going to happen.
INDEEDY.
> Period. Even if there is some pain involved.
Well tommy, apupriate care and handling of innocent defenseless
dumb critters DON'T HURT or INTIMIDATE them, tommy. LIKE THIS:
From: BNTD...@aol.com
To: jho...@bellsouth.net
Sent: Saturday, July 27, 2002 10:26 PM
Subject: Re: THANKS ALISON! - "Owners Should Always
Be Given The Cold, Hard Facts: They Should NEVER FEEL
GUILTY For Having An Aggressive Dog Euthanized."
Dear Jerry,
It's Kay here. I don't know who these people are that
maligning you and your training manual but tell them
from me that it does work.
Hunter is just doing so well even the people who
advocated putting him down are impressed with him.
I even started using it with the neighbor's dog. I went over
there to help her cut his nails. She started yelling at him
for growling at me. I told her to tell him what a good boy he
is instead. Lo and behold he stopped growling and I could
do his nails. All 4 feet.
My dog Hunter was trained with the old jerk and pull method
and my other dog was trained with treats. Hunter has gotten
his enthusiasm back for his training and I couldn't be more
pleased.
He even tried to kiss a child the other day.
Major break through.
This is the dog that a few months ago tried to eat the kids
through the fence. I can now take him in the car with me
again without him trying to chase cars through the windshield.
So Jerry tell these people that the first rule of dog training
is Do No Harm.
The 2nd rule is whatever works without breaking the first rule.
Aggressive dogs don't need to be put down. Hunter was diagnosed
aggressive and he is going to stay alive and
by my side where he belongs.
Thank you so much.
Kay
======
> No, the dog will not have a voice in this decision.
THAT'S HOWE COME The Amazing Puppy Wizard has created Animal
Behavior Sciences Forensic Research Laboratory, to IDENTIFY
EXXXPOSE DISCREDIT and PROSECUTE liars dog abusers cowards
and active acute chronic long term incurable mental cases
like yourself, tommy!
> And I won't beat myself up over it, either.
Of curse not. THAT'S HOWE COME you're DEFINED as a COWARD <{);~ ) >
> Because I, as the species with the larger brain
Well then tommy, you should be able to PROVE IT by NOT HURTIN
innocent defenseless dumb critters to CARE for them wouldn't
you agree, tommy? BWEEEEAAHAHAHAHAHAAAA!!!
> have decided that the many long-lasting rewards from all that
> are *well* worth any temporary discomfort or pain.
WHAAAAT PAIN, tommy? Animals DO NOT NEED to SUFFER PAIN at
the hands of self proclaimed suppHOWESEDLY bigger brained
ANIMALS. AIN'T THAT HOWE COME you GOT THE BIGGER BRAIN, tommy?
> Additionally, if I decide that it's more important for a dog to
> be well-trained than it is to avoid any possibility of him ever
> experiencing any discomfort or pain, he's going to be well-trained.
Well tommy, so much for your "BIGGER BRAIN", eh?
From: "George von Hilsheimer, Ph.D." <drv...@mindspring.com>
To: "Jack Morrison Dog Torturer" <"handsomejackmorri..."@earthlink.net>
Subject: If it brays like an ass, it is an ass
Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2005 16:46:12 -0400
Ugly Jack, If you had half a brain left over from
the unnatural practices you perform on helpless dogs
you could look up Dr. von Hilsheimer in Who's Who in
the USA, or WW in the World, or WW in Science and Tech,
or WW in Medicine - none of them vanity volumns, you
can't buy your way in. Then you'd know that simple
Jerry Howe is not Dr. Von.
George von Hilsheimer, Ph.D., Fellow, Royal
Society of Health, Who's Who honoree since 1982
From: "George von Hilsheimer, Ph.D." <drv...@mindspring.com>
To: "Jerry Howe" <theamazingpuppywiz...@mail.com>
Subject: e-mail from Dr. Von
Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2005 15:49:13 -0400
Pussy Wizard, I forgot how to join the dratted group.
So educate me and I'll join and send my own nasty to
them, and tell him to go read Who's Who if he thinks
I'm a myth. Dr. Vonsky
------------------------
From: "Jerry Howe" <AtHisMastersF...@muchomail.com>
To: DRV...@MINDSPRING.COM
Subject: Golden Girl Goddess Of Ethickal Breding And
Competitive Agility
Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2005
Hello Dr. Von,
Seems you've gone full circle and learned a TERRIBLE
LESSON from that unctuous Assinine Pissy Wizard guy:
e.g "No More Mr. Nice Guy" as per your visceral response
to gentleman jack morisson <{); ~ ) >
I THOUGHT you told me to be NICE to them, that
that's the ONLY WAY to CURE MENTAL ILLNESS!
Ain't EZ bein NICE to these pittiful Nazis, is it!
Well, I don't blame you.
Good answer, tho Doc. of curse, as always. However, it
would be helpful for "veracity's" sake were you to post
it directly to the group, I've long been accused of
FORGEING posts although you realize that would be far
beyond my reach around my collosal ego.
I've not replied to "jack's" post yet as I was hoping a
few of his zombie followers would chime in so I can drop
the hammer on them in the same manner as I was taught by
Dr. VonHilsheimer, the notoriously composed, almost sedate,
perpetually unflappable renowned expert on loving child
rearing whos demonstrated self discipline has always been
a shining beacon to this Poor Uneducated Shepherd Boy
And His Dog Laying At His Master's Feet <{) ; ~ ) >
Meanwhile, if you want a REAL BELLY LAUGH Doc., just
peruse these gems. I spent most of twelve hours researching
and arranging the following posted case history covering
only one aspect of peeling this slippery tricky boiling hot
lobster called robin NUTALL:
P.S. "jack" isn't even his real name, he's truly
anonymouse. I slammed him so hard (well, a couple
of my Students did) a couple years ago that he
gave up his former screen name OF TEN YEARS (e.g.
"DOGMAN" ) in disgrace over a POO EATIN problem
when he told two of my new students not to believe
me, that they'd NEED to hurt their dogs more than
they'd LIKE to extinguish (not BREAK) coprophagia.
Personally, I just say "NO!" after an obligatory
taste or two, of course.
They reported back a couple days later their poop
problems were solved nearly instantly using my
methods and that was about the last of DOGMAN
we'd seen for a while till jack reappeard denying his
former identity!
He's SO vested in remaining anonymouse no one would
know who he really is except for that ONE TIME he
got stiff and let slip a post from his kennel email
account, which he promptly denied despite an older
member of the group who got GUIDANCE from him and
subsequently MURDERED his own dog having become my
Student for his NEW live dog and mentioned to me
his true identity and of curse, I personally phoned
his kennel and spoke directly with him.
I'll Cc you my forthcoming reply to him.
Meanwhile ENJOY THESE GEMS!
These EXXXPERTS prove my point far better
than this inarticulate stumblebum or even
the WISE, SUAVE, Dr. VonHilsheimer could
ever PREY to accomplish!
I expect you'll find the following COMPELLING
and DISGUSTING and recognize it as real life
insanity:
> Period. Yes, even if it entails some temporary discomfort.
Well tommy, THAT'S HOWE COME dogs TURN on their abusers.
LIKE THIS:
Subject: < BEFORE -> "Jerry, You filthy, Unctuous,
No Good Charlatan,"
< AFTER -> "Thank You Jerry For Putting Up With
A Constant Barrage Of Really Infantile
Crap At The Hands Of Supposedly Adult
Dog Lovers.
'Naive' Is Believing You Can Terrorize
A Dog Into Good Behavior," Robert Crim.
>Subject: Re: Fritz---a retrospective
>Date: 02/05/1999
>Author: Robert Crim <fritzg...@earthlink.net>
> You filthy, unctuous, no good charlatan. If you had
> any idea of what dogs and dog people were about
> you would realize the depths of the absolute loathing
> and contempt I hold for you right now. Were it not
> for the blessed distance and anonymity that the internet
> gives us from the scummy likes of you, I would probably
> be in a jail cell right now for turning you into the pile
> of shit you really are
Hey, Howe, you really are a wacko, eh?
Crim wrote this about *YOU,* you insipid piece of cow dung!
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
--
Dogman
mailto:dog...@i1.net
http://www.i1.net/~dogman
=====================
> On Thu, 17 Jun 1999 20:24:15 -0700, dogsnus
<"Terri"@cyberhighway> Wrote:>
> Hey, do like me, and killfile Jerry.
> He has millions of people aleady reading his posts and
> watching him extract his soggy foot out of his mouth!
> Out of these MILLIONS, I've only seen 2 naive childs
> come forward and actually believe in his training manual.
Robert Crim writes:
I assume that I and my wife are those two naive childs
since I freely admit to having read and, I hope,
understood enough of the manual and it's counterparts by
John Fisher and the posts of Marilyn Rammell to believe
and use it.
This naive child would like to say thank you to both
Jerry and Marilyn for putting up with a constant barrage
of really infantile crap at the hands of supposedly
adult dog lovers.
The other naive child (LSW) has to put up with the
nagging idea that if people like them had been posting
earlier, maybe we would not have had to hold the head
of a really magnificent animal in our arms while he was
given the needle and having to hug him and wait until he
gasped his last gasp.
To my mind, "naive" is believing you can terrorize a dog.
Naive is believing that people that hide behind fake
names are more honest than people that use their real
names. Naive is thinking that dilettante dog breeders
and amateur "trainers" like Joey (lyingdogDUMMY, j.h.)
are the equal or better than those that have studied and
lived by their craft for decades.
"Stupid" is believing that people do not see kindergarten
level insults for what they are. Really stupid is believing
that people like Jerry Howe and Marilyn Rammell are
going to just go away because you people act like fools.
Why do you act like fools? I really have no idea, and I
don't really care.
> And, to date: I've not seen ONE come forward and
> actually admit to buying and having success with his
> little black box.
I think I'm going to get one myself for Father's day and
take it down to the Animal Shelter for their use and
testing. You would never believe the results, so you'll
never know.
> Anyone by now that doesn't see a scam man coming by
> Jerry's posts deserves to get what is sure to be coming
> to him! LOL!
I don't see a "scam man", so I guess I and Longsuffering
Wife and Rollei will just have to get what we deserve,
eh? As Joey (Dogman) says, "poor Rollei.".......right.
>Terri
Yes it was, and that is sad.
Robert, Longsuffering Wife and Rollei (do I get to
listen to the box first?)
===========
Crim wrote THAT about *YOU,* tommy,
"you insipid piece of cow dung!"
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
> However, in this the dog *will* have a voice, will have to make
> choices, etc. Because that's what life is all about -- making
> choices.
That so, tommy?:
From: Momi...@webtv.net (misty)
Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 09:29:09 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Re: Jerry, why non-physical praise?
Beth wrote:
> So, jerry's techniques didnt' work for Peach?
Never had a chance to try them on her... I was still
using the e-fence and chains to keep her in the yard.
The suggestions I received here to keep Peach home were:
build a fence... wasn't going to happen.. we plan on
putting a modular home here within the next few years...
put more fence at the top of the pen I used so both dogs
could play bitey face w/o tangling, and similar suggestions.
Jerry was the only one to mention border training... but he
was kook supreme ;-P So I ignored him... no killfiles with
webtv.. at that time Jerry had his own troll, somewhat like
Candace, so the group was not very conducive to learning anything.
At one point I even b*tched about Jerry.
By the time I tried out Jerry's manual Peach had already
ran away.
Not very good at the google groups search but you'll find my
first post at "runaway dog message 30" within that thread
is mention of the dogs taking off and being gone for 2 days.
I stopped posting for a bit... my middle boy was devastated
that his dog was gone... Zelda came home but not her mom.
The next few posts from me were ones about/to Jerry.
Then Jerry made the WETM accessible for webbes, I put it
in my e-mail (no storage otherwise on webby unless you put
stuff on a webpage) and read it, read it and read it.
Once I understood what the concept was, I implemented it
on Zelda. It worked and I now have a great housedog!
I only regret that my own distrust of Jerry caused me to
lose another wonderful dog. Peach was an absolute gem with
little kids. I and my boys still miss her. Sometimes I
still look to see if she came home when we get back from trips.
Maybe Peach would still have ran away... I don't know
and never will....
~misty
---------------
From: "Jerry Howe" <jho...@bellsouth.net>
Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 15:16:59 -0500
Subject: Re: Jerry, why non-physical praise?
Peach would be there sittin pretty had our pals not given
you a bum steer cause they're EMBARRASSED and AFRAID of
losing their careers and reputations....
Stick around, we're just startin to have FUN learning and
sharing...J;~)
---------------
"misty" <Momi...@webtv.net wrote in message news
16990-3CAB1F8...@storefull-2293.public.lawson.webtv.net...
I don't now whether Peach is dead or alive. I do know she's
not here with us. I really can't blame anyone here for her
loss.
I'm the one who ignored your advice. I did it because of
how you write/wrote. I was unwilling to accept the idea
that my using a shock collar could have any bearing on
Peach not wanting to stay home.
Up until I started using it my main concern had been
keeping my dogs in their own yard.
Once I started using the e-fence... well, then my concern
became how to keep them from running off for days on end.
I lost valuable training time becoming embroiled in the
anti-shock debate and the "Jerry sux" tirades.
I lost one dog but I have the bestest dog in the world now <g>
A Wits End Trained dog, one who is completely housetrained,
doesn't chew up stuff, stays in the yard, and doesn't bark all
the time.
IOW a great companion and friend.
Thanks Jerry!
---------------
misty" <Momi...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:6946-3B6...@storefull-233.iap.bryant.webtv.net.
We just installed a PetSafe brand fence this Spring. Two
dogs, two collars We now have one dog and no collars.
Peach and Zelda would run thru the fence, not want to come
back in the yard and would run for days.
The last time, Peach didn't come back home.
I used the Wit's End Training Manual to learn how to train
my dog. She is now border trained. A few minutes each day
reinforces her desire to stay in the yard.
She no longer runs out into the road, I can stop her from
chasing cats and she no longer cringes when we walk around
the yard.
I can not say loud or long enough how much I hate the
e-fence and its collars. If you can't get a regular fence
then you need to train your dog.
I will never rely on an electronic collar to keep my dog
in our yard again.
The price was too high:-( ~misty
--------------------------------
"misty" <Momi...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:12208-3BB...@storefull-234.iap.bryant.webtv.net.
Hi Cathy!
Yes I used The Wits End Method to train my girl, Zelda.
You can check the archives and see I'm a real person..
I post in misc.kids.breastfeeding, alt.cats rec.pets.cats.annecdotes
(not lately, my kitty died) rec.pets.dogs.behavior rec.pets.birds and
a ton of webtv firewalled ngs.
Zelda and her mom, Peach (RB) both loved to run the
neighborhood with my neighbors 2 male dogs. An e-fence
couldn't keep them home, chains pulled up and Peach could
jump/climb a 5 ft. fence.
I wrote in here for advice and felt like Jerry had jumped
down my throat. Upon re-reading his post to me..well..it
hit home hard that I was being abusive to my dog.
The thought of shocking my dog ever again makes me
want to puke.
Like I've said before... I might not like the way Jerry
treats some of the other posters but he gave me ( for _free_)
a way to teach myself and my dog.
I can let Zelda outside and not worry that a potty break
will mean she'll be gone for 2 days or, worse yet, not ever
come home...like her mom.
Zelda stopped chewing everything in sight once I started
applying Jerry's methods. One time of "bad slipper!" and
she never chewed another one up :-D
I don't post here a lot because I don't ave any problems
needing solved. I do join in occasionally or post informative
lnks. I just feel that my limited experience precludes me
from jumping in every thread <shrug> but I do read all of them.
If you want my phone number, e-mail me. We would have to
set up a time because I'm on the webbie a lot and we only
have 1 phone line.
~misty
> Why do I think it is more important? For the same reason that I think
> dogs should undergo even temporary discomfort while dealing with
> various health considerations -- because it will dramatically increase
> the chances of the dog being able to live a much longer, much more
> rewarding life.
Like kwbrown's DEAD DOG Teena, tommy?
You and Mastre Of Deception blankman
and sindy SADIST mooeon HEELPED her
with THAT DEAD DOG'S GROOMIN PROBLEM.
REMEMBER, tommy?
> I have yet to find a well-trained dog at a shelter or rescue facility,
Well tommy, you WOULDN'T KNOW a "WELL TRAINED DOG" on accHOWENT
of he'd NATURALLY TURN ON YOU for ABUSING HIM. Well trained dogs
DO NOT NEED to be jerked choked shocked and locked in boxes, tommy.
> and I don't think that's just a coincidence.
THAT'S HOWE COME The Amazing Puppy Wizard has formed HIS HUMAN
BEHAVIOR RESEARCH LABORATORY, tommy. You're settin in it...
> But many of them were well-loved, or at least well thought of,
> yet all that love and affection somehow helped to land them there
> anyway.
DESPITE all your bribery choking shocking crating and veterinary
treatments.
> And, of course, several million of those poor dogs are killed every
> single year in this country, because many of them were loved to death,
> so to speak.
Like laura arlov's DEAD DOG Chewie, tommy?
Here's HOWE COME laura KILLED her own
DEAD DOG Chewie for TURNING ON HER:
From: Laura Arlov (l...@wordfixers.no)
Subject: Re: Chewie bit my husband !
Date: 1999/01/20
Well, we're doing as you say Dogman,
and I'll keep you all posted.
---------
AND SHE DID. Thank you, tommy!~
> I greet many dogs at the precise moment they arrive in this world,
You mean bein a PUPPY MILLER, tommy.
> and they're also in my arms when they breathe their last breath.
When you MURDER them, tommy.
> I provide for them the very best I can.
Like when you shove your fingers DHOWEN their throats to
gently choke them HOWETA MHOWETING and then got to beat
choke pinch an twist ears and beat them with sticks to
make them pick sumpthin up, tommy?
> I provide them with the very best nutrition available.
You feed commercial garbage dog food, tommy.
> I provided them with the very best health care available.
You surgically sexually mutilate them and innoculate them
while still (or immediatly following) nursing and repeat
those unnecessary dangerHOWES innoculations annually as
your veterinary malpracticioner recommends.
> I provide them with a roof over their head,
You lock them in boxes and jerk choke and shock them when they cry
or ignore their cries and let them GET OVER IT on their own while
locked in a HOWEtside kennel where you won't hear them like HOWE
diddler done <{): ~ ) >
> generally the same roof that's over my own head.
OtherWIZE you wouldn't be able to shock and jerk and choke them for
cryin.
> I provide them with the very best pre-schooling imaginable.
Yeah. You choke and shock them, tommy.
> I provide them with the very best education any dog can get.
That's on accHOWENT of you got the "BIGGER BRAIN", eh tommy???
> I provide them with a job. The same job that every retriever was born to have.
If your SELECTIVELY BRED HAND PICKED from generations of generations of
FIELD CHUMPion dogs HOWE COME you gotta SHOCK CHOKE PINCH TWIST their
body parts and BEAT them to train them to DO what THEY BEEN BRED TO DO,
tommy sorenson of sorenson's Retrievers???
> And, of course, I provide them with all the love and
> affection that any dog should ever have to endure.
Some dogs just don't have a high tolerance for AFFECTION,eh tommy?
Is THAT HOWE COME you gotta jerk choke shock and beat them, tommy?
> In return for all that
That's HOWE YOU MAKE MONEY off them, tommy!
> (yes, I make them affix their paw print to a document),
Just like ANY PUPPYMILLER. Only difference is tommy, the INDUSTRY
STANDARD / international CUSTOMS uses NOSE PRINTS, not paw prints,
you flunky~!
BWEEEEAAAAHAHAHAHAAAA!!!
> and to become well-trained, they might have to
> experience a little discomfort from time to time.
You mean DESPITE your "BIGGER BRAIN," tommy?
> Not usually more than a tap on the shoulder, or very infrequently a
> definite thump. Certainly much less discomfort than when getting their
> nails clipped, teeth cleaned, vaccinated, etc.
INDEED? Despite that nail trimmin DON'T HURT and teeth cleanin
is UNNECESSARY in a pupperly handled well fed critter, tommy?
> I also teach them how easy it is to avoid even
> getting tapped on the shoulder,
Can you give a EXXXAMPLE of such a "tap on theshoulder," tommy?
This is your FIRST REFERENCE to such a unique training technique.
Perhaps you've been watchin "The Cesar" lately???
> much less thumped.
Well AIN'T THAT what your pronged spiked pinch choke
and shock collar are for, DESPITE that YOU PREFER your
slip choke collar, tommy?
> So that they can learn how to make good choices.
You mean like pickin up a dead birdy or goin into its box, tommy?
> The methods I choose to use to do that training (i.e., how I show
> them how to make good choices) are all based on sound, scientific
> principles (operant conditioning, classical conditioning, etc.),
If your CC / OC methods WORKED you WOULDN'T
NEED to HURT INTIMDIATE and MURDER dogs, tommy.
> and are *proven* to work extremely fast and extremely
> effectively and reliably.
Oh? You mean LIKE THIS, tommy?:
Instrumental / Classical / Operant / Conditioning
CC / OC / IC / -P +P / +R -R / S R / R S
It's ALL The SAME SAME SAME SAME
<{); ~ ) >
HOWEDY People,
Since The Amazing Puppy Wizard ALWAYS gets CONfHOWENDED
tryin to suss the psychobabble in behavioral terminology
HE asked Dr. Von if he could remember what he was taught
in school fifty years ago:
"...all the highest nervous activity, as it manifests
tself in the conditional reflex, consists of a continual
change of these three fundamental processes -- excitation,
inhibition and disinhibition." Ivan P. Pavlov
What's important is, "does Shamu reliably
eat the fish and not the pretty girl?"
George von Hilsheimer, Ph.D., F.R.S.H.
From: "George von Hilsheimer, Ph.D." <drv...@mindspring.com>
Subject: The Amazing Jerry's take on psychobabble
Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 12:13:44 -0400
You might improve the learning of folk who actually
live with and train dogs to do useful things if you
excluded everyone who uses psychobabble from your lists.
I recommend to all of you who wish to taste the flavor
of sensible animal behaviorists to read THE MISBEHAVIOR
OF ORGANISMS, Breland and Breland.
This married pair of psychologists began the long trail
of highly trained animals who are symbolized by Shamu
eating a mackrel from a girl's hand instead of eating
the much more tasty pretty girl who is exactly the size
of the natural food of killer whales, seals. Yum!
The essay, by the way, is a chapter in B.F. Skinner's
summing up book, CUMULATIVE RECORD. They include a
sentence which more or less says, "unless you understand
the personal history of the particular animal, and the
history of this animal's species and group, the developmental
history of the animal, you cannot effectively train the animal.
Pigs root and hen's scratch, if you try to train hens without
scratching or pigs without scratching or pigeons without pecking,
you aren't going to have much success.
A conditional reflex is one which is learned, the original
primitive reflex occurs no matter what the history of the
animal, and is hard wired. If you train the animal to respond,
say by ringing a bell immediately before turning on a bright
light, then you've taught the animal and made his native reflex
of pupil constriction conditional upon the ringing of a bell.
Thorndyke added some terminology to this kind of training
and insisted that when you train the animal to make gross
motor responses that this learning is "instrumental", the
animal takes action and uses an instrument.
The Russian word translated as "conditional" in all other
contexts was mistranslated by Pavlov's American translator,
Horsley Gannt, as "conditioned" and so American psychology
went haring after phantasmagora.
The major theorists for the development of the language of
operant conditioning are Edward Thorndike, John Watson, and
B. F. Skinner. Their approach to behaviorism played a major
role in the development of American psychology.
They proposed that learning is the result of the application
of consequences; that is, learners begin to connect certain
responses with certain stimuli. This connection causes the
probability of the response to change (i.e., learning occurs.)
Thorndike labeled this type of learning instrumental. Using
consequences, he taught kittens to manipulate a latch (e.g.,
an instrument). Skinner renamed instrumental as "operant"
because in this learning, one is "operating" on, and is
influenced by, the environment. Where classical conditioning
illustrates S-->R learning, operant conditioning is often
viewed as R-->S learning since it is the consequence that
follows the response that influences whether the response
is likely or unlikely to occur again.
It is through operant conditioning that
voluntary responses are learned.
One should note that Russian Psychology did very well
without the operant language, and only pettifogging
university professors ought to worry about what kind
of label we attach to the learning. Pfui!
Even Skinner understood this!
And please note if you saw the original movie, THE
MANCHURIAN CANDIDATE, you saw a Chinese psychologist
who was based on Andrew Salter, CONDITIONED REFLEX
THERAPY.
Alas, Salter didn't have a Ph.D., but he basically rescued
us from the long Freudian nightmare and returned psychotherapy
to a scientific basis. Alas, the 2nd movie didn't even cite
Salter as a source. "...all the highest nervous activity, as
it manifests itself in the conditional reflex, consists of a
continual change of these three fundamental processes --
excitation, inhibition and disinhibition." Ivan P. Pavlov
George von Hilsheimer, Ph.D., F.R.S.H.
What's important is, "does Shamu reliably eat
the fish and not the pretty girl?"
George von Hilsheimer, Ph.D., F.R.S.H.
> And the faster the results, the better the results,
Well then HOWE COME you and your punk thug coward active
acute chronic long term incurable MENTAL CASE PALS always
SEZ that you CAN'T TRAIN a dog NEARLY INSTANTLY and it's
best done SLOWLY over TIME with PATIENCE instead of usin
EFFECTIVE NON PHYSICAL CONDITIONING as taught in The Amazing
Puppy Wizard's 100% CONSITENTLY NEARLY INSTANTLY SUCCESSFUL
FREE WWW Wits' End Dog Training Method Manual, tommy?
> the faster the dog gets a job, and gets to go places and
> to do things he would rather do than eat.
Is THAT HOWE COME you can't train your dogs with REAL
CORRECTIONS till they're six months old, tommy?
> Of course, implicit in this agreement is the promise that
> I will never, ever abandon him, no matter what,
RIGHT. THAT'S HOWE COME YOU MURDER dogs you CAN'T TRAIN.
> or confine him to a dog crate
That's INSANE, tommy. You're a LIAR.
> unless it's absolutely necessary,
You mean like when you're HOWES TRAININ them, tommy?
> or use any more punishment than is absolutely necessary,
Another EXXXCELLENT POINT from the BIGGER BRAINED animal,
tommy. Defenseless dumb critters DO NOT NEED ANY "punishment"
to TRAIN them to naturally want to do ANY THING you ask, so
long as you KNOW HOWE to pupperly use your CC/OC trinin methods...
> among other things.
You mean like surgical sexual mutilation, choking, scruff
shaking, chin chucking,beating with belts and sticks, alpha
rolling shocking and kneeing them in the chest,tommy?
You sez:
> At no time do the Monks *ever* advocate beating a
> dog. A swat on the rump or a check to the chin does
> *not* constitute a "beating."
And then you sez:
"I don't know how big you are, kiddo, so this may
not be as easy for you as it is for me, but use
a little "knee action," that is, as the dog goes
charging by you, just give the dog a little bop
with your knee and shin. Yep, really lean into it.
Even knock her over, if you can, but make sure to
make her think twice about rushing past you again -
- which is exactly what you want her to do.
Don't bother with scolding her, she'll get the message.
If it happens again, just REPEAT the knee action.
When she steps on your toes, just pick up your foot
abruptly and nudge her with your knee. Again, no
scolding is necessary here, so you don't have to
worry about her "over-reacting."
I don't think this is necessarily a lack of respect
for you, just a lack of training. That is, she just
needs *more* of it."
> As to how this agreement is working out, well, all anyone
> ever needs to do to find that out is to just look at my dogs.
AN EXXXCELLENT POINT, tommy! SHOWE US YOUR DOGS, tommy???
YOU WON'T, on accHOWENT of you're a anonymHOWES LYIN DOG ABUSING
PUNK THUG COWARD ACTIVE ACUTE CHRONIC LONG TERM INCURABLE MENTAL
CASE. Isn't THAT correct, tommy???
BWEEEEEAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAAA!!!
> Especially when they're with me.
Well then tommy, HOWE COME you REFUSE to IDENTIFY YOURSELF
so's WE CAN SEE YOU at the many field trials you compete at?
BWEEEEAAHAHAHAHAHHAAAAA!!!
Just give us the link to your PUPPY MILL, eh tommy???
> Someone who they would rather be with than even their own kind.
OtherWIZE YOU'D HURT them somemore.
THAT'S CALLED the Stockholm Syndrome. REMEMBER tommy?
> So I always defer to my dogs to let me
> know how our agreement is coming along.
THAT'S WONDERFUL, tommy! SHOWE US YOUR DOGS, tommy?
> I.e., I only give a shit what my dogs think.
INDEEDY! Let them off lead with no shock collar on
and take a walk, tommy? Your dogs WILL ESCAPE.
> So to reiterate what *my* point is again:
> I don't give a shit what you think about anything.
Is THAT HOWE COME you're a anonymHOWES COWARD, tommy?
> I DON'T GIVE A SHIT WHAT YOU THINK ABOUT ANYTHING!
Is THAT HOWE COME you've set your INFORMATIVE posts to
EXXXPIRE in six days, tommy? BWEEEEAAAHAHAHHAAAA!!!
> :D
":D?? Does that stand for "Duh-Oh!" tommy? SHOWE US YOUR DOGS.
> --
>
> Handsome Jack Morrison
> *gently remove the detonator to reply by e-mail
Permit The Amazing Puppy Wizard to give you a hand with
that tricky little pin, eh tommy? There, GOT IT. NHOWE
HOWELD THIS, tommy...
Adios!
> <spit>
Ooops! That's UNSANITARY, tommy. Care to pick that up off of
The Amazing Puppy Wizard's 100% CONSISTENTLY NEARLY INSTANTLY
SUCCESSFUL FREE WWW Wits' End Dog Training Method Forum's floor,
tommy? We got folks walkin arHOWEND barefoot <{); ~ ) >
HOWEDY tommy,
Handsome Jack Morrison wrote:
> Suja <span...@scs.gmu.edu> wrote in
> news:xpPHe.440$ah4.103@lakeread05:
>
> > Janet Puistonen wrote:
> >> $7000 for a puppy? Did it walk on water, too?
> >
> > I had to bite my tongue when I heard that. I mean,
> > what kind of sensible person would pay that kind of
> > money for a dog?
You'd be VERY SURPRISED to see the kinda money Uncle
Sam and your state and local polices are PAYIN for
"SELECTIVELY BRED K-9's" like lying "I LOVE KOEHLER"
lynn's SAR dog JIVE. You remember him tommy, HE RETIRED
pryor to EVER WORKIN a SAR site and has of late been
FAILING in the sheep herding ring, since sufferin JOB
BURNHOWET in SAR work... too much RESPONSIBILITY for
him, eh tommy?
> > Especially when it is just going to be a pet? That's
> > one of the things I didn't have a problem with, BTW -
> > if people are quite that gullible, they can expect to
> > be fully taken advantage of.
UNLESS THEY KNOW WHAT THEY'RE DOIN, like lying "I LOVE
KOEHLER" lynn, FOR EXXXAMPLE <{); ~ ) >
> Hark!
Show a little leg, tommy.
> Never let it be said that Handsome Jack Morrison
> doesn't go the extra mile in his pursuit of Truth,
> Justice and the American Way.
But OF CURSE! You S-HOWEND just like captain arthur
haggerty, your MENTOR, and his flunky pal STUDENT
booby maida, another fighter for truth and justice
and the AMERICAN WAY just like yourself, tommy.
> I just got off the phone with Fr. Mark at the Monks,
Ain't THAT charmin, eh tommy? Did you IDENTIFY YOURSELF
or did you go by your false name of joey finnochario like
you used when you looked up The Amazing Puppy Wizard's
records at Orlando City Hall, eh tommy?
> and he said that the price for Monks pups at the current
> time is $2000 (recently raised from $1750, because they
> breed less often these days).
Meanin since the GSD has been on the DECLINE due to
heelth and temperament PROBLEMS reported RIGHT HERE
on The Amazing Puppy Wizard's Forums, eh tommy?
> They've *never* sold one for more than $3500, and that
> was for a fully-trained *adult* GSD, with OTCH prospects
You mean he wasn't even started, tommy.
> (for a comparison, it's not that rare for FC retrievers
> to change hands for 6 figure amounts).
INDEEDY? But not through a PUPPY MILLER like yourself, tommy.
> They also put *each* dog that's in their breeding program
> through the standard battery of health testing, including
> hips, elbows, eyes, vWD, etc., but he wasn't sure what the
> entire protocol was.
That's EZ tommy, it's been written abHOWET RIGHT HERE
by your own punk thug coward mental case pal Master Of
Deception blankman. She sez they say they STRESS their
puppies in a variety of ways to make them better...
"I know not everyone is comfortable with the modified
Koehler style promoted by the Monks -"
And she's a lying dog abusing MENTAL CASE herself,
just like you, tommy, ain't that the TRUTH?
But we wasn't talkin abHOWET her, we was talkin abHOWET you:
You sez:
> At no time do the Monks *ever* advocate beating a
> dog. A swat on the rump or a check to the chin does
> *not* constitute a "beating."
And then you sez:
"I don't know how big you are, kiddo, so this may
not be as easy for you as it is for me, but use
a little "knee action," that is, as the dog goes
charging by you, just give the dog a little bop
with your knee and shin. Yep, really lean into it.
Even knock her over, if you can, but make sure to
make her think twice about rushing past you again -
- which is exactly what you want her to do.
Don't bother with scolding her, she'll get the message.
If it happens again, just REPEAT the knee action.
When she steps on your toes, just pick up your foot
abruptly and nudge her with your knee. Again, no
scolding is necessary here, so you don't have to
worry about her "over-reacting."
I don't think this is necessarily a lack of respect
for you, just a lack of training. That is, she just
needs *more* of it."
> He's going to have Fr. John call me back with more information.
Yeah, but you're a PROVEN LIAR and DOG ABUSING MENTAL CASE
and YOU MAKE MONEY off of SELLIN THEIR BOOKS and MOVIES,
tommy, so your WORD is that of a SPAMMER and SCAMMER, to boot:
Date: 1999/01/15
Subject: Re: Another mouthy lab
Get this book:
"The Art of Raising A Puppy," by the Monks of New Skete
If you can't find it locally, you can obtain it
through my Web site (see below).
You'll need it for more than just the usual puppy
"mouthing" problems, anyway.
And good luck with your Lab puppy!
--
Dogman
> [Fr. John just called me back(on my cell phone), but I
> was in my truck and apparently in a dead zone of some kind,
You been in a DEAD ZONE since DAY WON P.T.A.P.W.E. (Pryor
to The Amazing Puppy Wizard Era). BWEEEEEEEEAAHAHHAAA!!!
> so we couldn't hear each other very well.
NO PROBLEMO, tommy. We'll just accept you WORD for
what you'd LIKE us to BELIEVE.
LIKE THIS:
From: dog...@i1.net (Dogman)
Date: 1999/01/17
Subject: Re: Training book by a bunch of monks
Upon my return to the Cuckoo's Nest, Sun, 17 Jan 1999 22:22:02 GMT,
khay...@cave-systems.on.ca (Kevin Haryett) says:
"The Art of Raising A Puppy," by the Monks of New Skete
*Very* good book...but forget the stuff about "alpha rolls."
--
Dogman
From: bob...@aol.com (Bob Maida)
Date: 2000/06/24
Subject: Re: Best behavior book?
HI,
2 books, I would recommed are Understanding Your
Dog by Dr Michael Fox Mother Knows Best by Carol
Benjamin The Art of Raising A Puppy by The Monks of
New Skete (and NO, the Monks book does not have the
"alpha roll" in it)
------------------
Seems WON of you BELIEVERS in TRUTH JUSTICE and
The AMERICAN WAY is a doGgamened LIAR, eh tommy?
We know who THAT is, tommy... it's YOUR PAL gumbah
booby maida, captain arthur haggerty's PROTEGE.
BWEEEEEEEEEAAHAAHHAHAAAA!!!
NOT FOR NUTHIN, other than to substantiate
that you mentally ill lying dog abusing punk
thug coward mental cases will do and say ANY
THING to defend your alleged RIGHT to HURT
INTIMDIATE and MURDER innocent critters.
> We arranged for me to call him back tomorrow,
> this time on a land line, to discuss it further.
What's to DISCUSS, tommy? You're a liar and dog
abuser like your mentally ill pat booby, and the
monks are a bunch of heavy handed ignorant puppy
milling LHOWETS, like yourself, tommy.
> He said he was very happy to talk about it,
That so? Let's talk abHOWET YOUR DOGS, tommy?
Let's talk abHOWET your CHUMPION FIELD DOGS,
eh tommy? AIN'T YOU PRHOWED of your kennels?
BWEEEEEEEEEEEEEAAHAHAHHAAAA!!!
> because they were very proud of the testing they do,
That so? And they're VERY PRHOWED of THIS:
From: "Jerry Howe" <j...@cfl.rr.com>
Date: 2000/09/19
Subject: The Monks Of New Skete
Recommend These Disciplinary Measures:
The Monks look charming on the outside, but
they have heavy handed techniques.
I've seen advice as to how to hit your dog coming
from them, and lots of other non productive, even
dangerous advice.
While I realize that your definition of abuse differs
greatly from mine, I have spent most of the last thirty-
six years retraining dogs brought up and trained by
abusive techniques.
In The Art of Raising a Puppy , copyright 1991, the
Monks of New Skete recommend these disciplinary measures:
1. Scruff shake. (recommended for puppies, 8-12 weeks)
Grab scruff of neck, shake firmly, bark "NO!"
2. Shakedown. Grab sides of throat with both hands,
lifting dog's front feet off floor, stare, shake
several times, and bark "NO!"
3. "Using a firm cuff underneath the chin with your
opened hand...To make this correction effectively,
your dog must be anchored in a sitting position with
your left hand holding onto his collar.
As you make eye contact with your dog, cuff the
underside of his mouth with your opened right
hand, rapping him sharply several times, as you
say NO!" (recommended for 5-6 month old puppies)
4. Stick finger down throat to stop mouthing or
squeeze and shake muzzle hard enough to elicit
a whine, and bark "NO!"
5. To stop jumping, grab front paws of jumping
pup, and force him to remain in that position
long enough to become uncomfortable.
6. Leash Pop with choke collar (Also pupularized
as the Margolis Jerk)
Those actions and attitudes are behaviors your
dog will learn to copy, and apply to you.
Let me start by calling attention to the recent
notoriety of shaken baby syndrome. Although dogs
have a loose scruff, the brain damage can result
just the same, and disk damage may occur.
The ubiquitous leash pop is my number one gripe.
It is recommended and used by almost everyone.
The sharp corrections on leash continue throughout
the life of the dog.
It is recommended they be increased in severity
and frequency as the dog becomes more resistant
and the trainer thinks the dog knows what is
expected of him but the dog refuses to do it.
(Dogs don't do things out of spite!) Nerve damage
can result from leash corrections. Makes me nauseous
to hear people say that dogs don't feel pain the
same way we do.
As a society we don't condone treating our children
or employees that way. What makes abuse O.K. for
animals? Force, abuse, and punishment do not have
any place in a learning environment!
Most of the mistakes our dogs make are not even
understood by the dog to be mistakes. The punishment
is not understood, and behavior problems result
from the abuse.
BUT YOU SEZ:
"My objective is always to find a way that WORKS.
And if it is DANGEROUS behavior that I'm trying
to modify, behavior than can get the dog KILLED,
I will resort to ANYTHING to save him.
A-N-Y-T-H-I-N-G.
Okay. Call me a cruel, inhumane, abusive bastard
if you want to, but it doesn't affect me at all.
When you've saved the lives of as many dogs as I
have, you'll learn that that's the only thing that
really matters. Saving lives and making dogs become
good citizens"
HOWE abHOWET all them DEAD DOGS you TRAINED RIGHT
HERE that your TERRORIZM DIDN'T SAVE, tommy?
Like Robert Crim's, kwbrown's, laura arlov's,
tara o.' DEAD DOGS, FOR EXXXAMPLE, tommy?
> and the dogs they produce.
You mean, LIKE THIS?:
From: Tara <taragre...@verizon.net>
Date: Fri, 07 Jan 2005 17:58:51 GMT
Subject: Re: good dog training books?
I've personally seen their methods (as applied by
them) NOT work on dogs they themselves have bred.
IMO, their methods actually made the underlying problems
*worse*. In three cases, where they both bred and trained
the dogs, they subsequently washed their hands of the dogs
and suggested euthanasia....and then promptly tried to
talk the owners into taking another one of their own pups.
<snip>
Since I have serious issues and doubts about the
practices and ethics of the Monks, I obviously
only support the latter two ;-)
Tara
Of curse SHE'S likeWIZE, a DOG ABUSING MENTAL CASE, eh tommy?
> He named his vet, a Dr. Wolski, and welcomed me
> to call him, too. I can get the number tomorrow,
> when I call again. Yes, I intend to report back
> tomorrow,
Well that's kindly of you, tommy... considerin
YOUR BUSINESS DEPENDS on SELLIN THEIR BOOKS.
> after we've talked and I've gathered
> additional information FIRST-HAND.
Yeah, but comin from you tommy, it's WORTHLESS, at best.
Your WORD AIN'T NO GOOD here abHOWETS, tommy.
> He also welcomed me to drop by for a visit.
THEY SELL PUPPIES, tommy, and he's 2,000 miles away.
> The Monks are always happy to have people visit,
> and no appointment is required. Yep, sounds just
> like a puppy mill to me...sheesh.]
INDEEDY! They got a VERY WELL STAFFED PUPPY MILL.
> I also recommended to him that they might want
> to put something on their website about the testing.
You AIN'T blaming BAD TEMPERAMENTS on GENES again,
are you tommY? Do they got a GENTIC TEST for FEAR
AGGRESSION, tommy?
> They have their own way of testing temperaments,
THEY HURT INTIMIDATE AND MURDER DOGS, like HOWE you do, tommy.
> of which they write about in their books.
THEY'RE DOG ABUSERS AND THEY ADMIT IT:
> A quote from the Monks:
> "We repeat, these situations may merit physical discipline.
> Since no book can pretend to analyze every individual dog
> and situation, we feel obligated to emphasize from the
> outset that discipline is never an arbitrary training
> technique to be applied to each and every dog for all
> offenses. We do, however, believe that physical and verbal
> discipline can be an effective technique. The best policy if
> you experience any of the above problems is to consult a
> qualified trainer or veterinarian for evaluation of your
> individual situation....
> "If discipline is decided upon as a training technique, it
> should be the proper technique. We feel we have developed
> several methods that depend less on violent physical force
> than timing, a flair for drama, and the element of surprise.
> We feel an obligation, as responsible trainers, to map out
> these methods, rather than simply skip the topic because it
> is unpleasant. Dog owners want to know what to do."
> >> Well, it certainly sounds as if their breeding program
> >> went into a steep decline after an auspicious beginning-
> >> -perhaps as a result of misguidedly trying to keep up
> >> with the demand.
PERHAPS THAT'S HOWE COME the GSD 'WENT INTO DECLINE,' eh tommy?
> > Perhaps. There was a time when they produced nice dogs.
Sez WHO?
> > They had a good guide for their breeding program at that time.
A GUIDE???
> > The one person who got a dog from them early on said
> > that the dog was about as fabulous as they get, and
> > hooked her on GSDs for life. Which is why she bought
> > from them again.
>
> And I think that if you poke around a bit, that's
> more like what you'll hear from the vast majority
> of current Monks owners, too.
You mean, all but those who GOT BURNED by their PUPPY
MILL STOCK and their ABUSIVE METHODS, tommy?
> The Monks pace their breedings to the numbers of
> monks they have on hand and available for assignment
> to the pups.
INDEED?
> When they have more monks in residence, they are
> able to produce more pups, and vice versa. They
> have fewer monks these days, so they're producing
> fewer pups.
So as their monkey shines are on the decline, likeWIZE
their PUPPY MILL BUSINESS, tommy? BWEEEEEEEAHAHAHHAA!!!
> Demand for their pups has never been greater.
Accordin to WHOM, tommy?
> But they no longer allow names to be placed on a waiting list.
> They just can't deal with the demand, so they don't even try.
That's ABSURD, tommy.
> When they do plan a breeding, they are now going to
> announce it on their web site, and then take reservations
> for pups (which may or may not be honored, depending on
> the litter size.) First come, first served. Then they'll
> start the process all over again for the next planned breeding.
>
> At least that's the current plan.
So, after all these years they're STILL FIGGRERIN IT HOWET, tommy?
> >> It sounds as if they must have incorporated at
> >> least one sire into their program that turned
> >> out to have less than desirable genes.
> >
> > I've heard of a female who was put down because
> > she stopped producing.
In keepin with TRUE puppy mill fashion, eh tommy?
> > Apparently, she should've never been bred at all,
> > because she was overly aggressive. This is third
> > hand information though, and I have no way of
> > verifying it.
Well, tommy can just ask friar tuck when he speaks
to him tommorow to verify that they're not dog abusing
puppy millers like hisself. BWEEEEAAHAHAHAAAAA!!!
> Then why even pass it on?
On accHOWENT of you're dealin with DOG
ABUSING MENTAL CASES, tommy. IT DON'T
MATTER WHAT THE ISSUE IS, you're DEALIN
WITH DOG ABUSING LYIN MENTAL CASES here.
From: "dogtraining" <b...@basta.net>
Date: 1999/03/29
Subject: Re: Monks (was Lab. Puppy questions)
The Monks live in New Skette (spelling not sure) which
is upstate New York... the system they use is by having
the dog all day with them while they eat, work, and talk
to god... they are monks of the greek ortodox church (I
believe...) the system is excelent providing you do not
condem "harsh" methods...!
I hope the information is useful to you....
Regards
> Hopefully it didn't come from the same person
> who claimed to have paid $7000 for her PUPPY(!)?
Well, some folks will say ANY THING to make themselves
S-HOWEN MOORE IMPORTANT than they really are, eh tommy?
> Maybe you were taught in school to rely on third-hand
> information, and not just second-hand information(!),
> right? So why not go for broke,
And take tommy's word for it.
> and now try relying on fourth or even fifth-hand
> information, the next time you decide to slander
> a breeder's reputation?
Like yours, tommy? You're a ETHICKAL BREEDER yet
you REFUSE TO IDENTIFY YOURSELF and IN FACT DENY
who you are KNOWN TO BE. You DO REMEMBER HOWER
CONVERSATION on YOUR PHONE at tommy sorenson's
PUPPY MILL, tommy? DON'T YOU? You didn't wanna
TALK BUSINESS with The Amazing Puppy Wizard on
accHOWENT of you're a lyin dog abusing punk thug
coward mental case puppy miller.
> Maybe you can find someone who talked to someone
> who talked to someone who said that she got it
> from her cousin, twice removed, who got it from
> her landlady's maid, who got it from her sister's
> chauffeur, who overheard it being whispered into
> a cell phone by a swarthy looking gentleman standing
> on the corner of Fifth and Broadway, and wearing a
> backpack?
INDEED THAT would be MOORE RELIABLE than RELYING on
the WORD of the BOOK SALESMAN for the DOG ABUSERS
and PUPPY MILLERS.
> You are either a very naive person, or you're not
> nearly as smart as I once thought you were.
Sez it all, eh tommy?
> >> Perhaps that's why they seem to have pulled back
> >> severely. (I wonder how many litters they were
> >> producing per year, and how many they produce now?)
>
> > All good questions. More than they should've is my guess.
>
> Keep in mind that the monks, compared with most breeders,
Like yourself, tommy? TELL US abHOWET YOUR OWN KENNELS, tommy?
> have a *lot* of help.
AS EXXXAMPLED by your pal lying frosty dahl when
she DISCOVERED CANNIBALISM in Labradorable dogs
when she left a NEW MOM with her litter so she
could SELL PUPPIES, REMEMBER tommy?
> That is, each and every monk has puppy
> raising/training responsibilities.
THEY HURT and INTIMDIATE dogs, tommy.
> They also have the help of a nearby convent,
> staffed with nuns, if they need more help.
So that LEGITIMIZES their PUPPY MILL and ABUSE?
PERHAPS the good Sisters are trying to SAVE THEM, tommy,
JUST LIKE HOWE you SAVE DOGS from the needle, eh tommy?
> They don't compete with their dogs because they have
> prayer and chapel responsibilities to tend to on week-ends,
That so? Are they SeventhDayEpiscopalJews, tommy?
They got HIGHER BUSINESS dealin on Saturday AND Sunday?
> when most competitions are being held.
You mean as a PROFESSIONAL SHOW DOG BREEDER and TRAINER
you don't know they got THURSDAY FRIDAY and MONDAY SHOWES?
BWEEEEEEEEEAAHAHAHAHHAAA!!!
There's NEVER been such a LAME EXXXCUSE as THAT WON, tommy.
> They do however strongly encourage their buyers to
> compete and test, etc., and they rely on their results
> and periodic reports back to them for additional breeding
> information.
Oh GOODY! You can LOOK UP THEIR SHOWE DOG HISTORY in AKC, tommy.
HOWE many monks dogs do you SEE makin CHUMPIONSHIPS?
> >> I think both you and Jack have a point. Bad breeders
> >> they may have become, commercial breeders yes, but
> >> perhaps the term "puppy mill" is misplaced?
PERHAPS it's just the TERMINOLOGY, eh tommy? PUPPY MILLER
kinda makes your skin itch, don't it, tommy. Let's talk
abHOWET tommy soronen's kennels, MO, USA, tommy? You're
RIGHT IN THE HEART of PUPPY MILL COUNTRY, ain't you, tommy.
> >> I don't know exactly where to draw that line. "Ethical"
> >> breeders in the accepted sense they definitely are not
> >> if they don't do standard health testing at least.
> []
Ask brother john or friar tuck if they ACCPET their
REJECTED PUPPIES back from their BUYERS with a FULL
REFUND, like ANY ETHICKAL BREEDER DOES, eh tommy?
> > Maybe the Monks were just unethical breeders.
Naaah, they're a bunch of IGNORAMUSES, like tommy
and the rest of these lying dog abusing punk thug
coward MENTAL CASES who post their IDIOCY here abHOWETS.
> What *proof* do you have that the Monks have ever
> done anything in an unethical way?
Only REPORTED CASE HISTORIES we got RIGHT HERE,
and the INFORMATION in their very own books, tommy.
> Even once?
We've been through that a few times already, tommy.
You MENTAL CASES got a HABIT of askin the SAME IDIOTIC
QUESTIONS despite having GOT the IDIOTIC TRUTH answered,
when YOU DON'T LIKE THE TRUTH, tommy.
> Sheesh.
Yeah.. you DENY the TRUTH and EXXXPET folks to
BELIEVE an anonymHOWES VULGAR DOG ABUSING COWARD
like yourself, an ANONYMHOWES COWARD and LIAR,
tommy, like yourself. A LYING DOG ABUSING ANONYMHOWES
PUNK THUG COWARD MENTAL CASE, like yourself, tommy.
> > Maybe they were "good" puppy millers.
Of curse, tommy. They mighta made a little MISTAKE.
> What kind of puppy mill has a monk assigned to *each*
> puppy at birth, and who then gets to live inside with
> the monk, who then cares for him, socializes him, trains
> him, feeds him, etc., until he's old enough to eventually
> be sold to his permanent owners?
BWEEEEEEEAAHAHAHHAHAAA!!! THEY'RE DOG ABUSERS LIKE YOURSELF.
From: x...@yyy.berkeley.edu
Date: 1995/05/13
Subject: Re: GSD pups from the Monks of New Skete; how much?
I have met a couple of GSDs from their breeding and have
found them to be on the shy to timid side. However, I
have no idea what their owners were like and how much
socialization they provided, etc. Just don't expect
miracles because someone is an author.
> Take as long as you need to find one.
THEY'RE A FULLY STAFFED PUPPY MILL, tommy. BIG DEAL.
THEY HURT and INTIMDIATE dogs, tommy.
> > Either way, I am not about to line their pockets.
> > And I can't help but object to others who knowingly
> > or unknowingly do the same.
>
> Yeah, I know. You can't help yourself from
> slandering people, a la Jerry Howe.
The Amazing Puppy Wizard aka Jerry HOWE don't know
or CARE abHOWET the monkies BREEDING practices, HE
only cares abHOWET their ABUSE of innocent dumb
critters in their BOOKS that YOU SELL, REMEMBER tommy?
> What a piece of work you turned out to be.
Let's not throw the baby HOWET with the bathwater, eh tommy?
> Sheesh.
Let's talk abHOWET beatin dogs to HOWEsbreak them, tommy?
> By the way, you might want to call this number:
>
> 518-677-3828
>
> Ask for Fr. John.
>
> He also invites you (or anyone else) to visit
> the Monks facilities, too.
THEY SELL PUPPIES, tommy. THEY NEED folks to SEE THEIR PUPPIES.
> Yep, they really sound like a puppy mill.
INDEEDY, tommy. A FULLY STAFFED PUPPY MILL.
But THAT AIN'T THE PROBLEM, tommy:
From: "Kieron Dodds" <nospam.kdo...@nospam.email.msn.com>
Date: 1998/03/15
Subject: Re: Monks of New Skete
Just as a bit of a counterpoint, my trainer has a Great
Pyrenees looking for a home right now that was *ruined*
by these books. Not all methods are valid for all dogs
or all owners or all dog/owner combinations.
While these books may work for you and others and dogs
you have worked, I've found the practices within to be
significantly less reliable than other methods, even
when properly applied, especially the "shake", even if
the methods do work for many owners and dogs.
Personally, I've seen far too many disastrous results
to recommend these books to anyone (sight unseen).
IOW, one can't really recommend a book or method without
first evaluating the owner/dog combo and anyone reading
such recommendations should remember this and remember
to try other methods when the ones they are using fail.
> <boggle>
You want BOGGLE, tommy?:
From: "Avrama Gingold" <avr...@mindspring.com>
Date: 1999/11/25
Subject: Re: Recommendations on Puppy training Books
Personally, I do not care for the Monks book.
(Even Job Michael Evans, one of its two co-authors,
later rethought the "alpha roll" advice.)
My main objection is that it assumes the dog will
be raised in the same kind of milieu as the New
Skete monastery, which is very far from accurate.
But we KNOW professora "CHIN CHUCK ABSOLUTELY
DOESN'T MEAN HIT THE DOG" gingold is likeWIZE
a LIAR and DOG ABUSER, ain't that correct, tommy.
Let's talk abHOWET your kennels, tommy. You MUST
be VERY PRHOWED of your dogs. Too bad you're SO
HUMBLE you WON'T BRAG on your own KENNEL NAME, tommy.
AIN'T IT.
> The horror. The horror.
No, the HORROR is, you're a liar and dog abusing
coward and you're AFRAID to ADMIT WHO YOU ARE.
But THAT'S IN The Amazing Puppy Wizard's Archives
from that nite you and tommy and joey got STIFF
and FORGOT to CHANGE YOUR SCREEN NAME and email
address and sent TOMMY SORONSEN'S email into US
RIGHT HERE... then you DENIED it again... despite
The Amazing Puppy Wizard TALKIN TO YOU on the phone
after HE got your number from HERE, tommy.
LIKE THIS:
From: osi...@deltaville.net (Michael Erskine)
Date: 12 Aug 2004 10:09:05 -0700
Subject: My GSD bit me.
The question:
I have a four year old male GSD. He growls at
me sometimes. When he growls at me he stares
me in the face and lays his ears back.
The New Skete books say that the dog should
not be allowed to do that. They suggest shaking
down the dog by grabing the dog on the sides of
his neck and picking him off his front feet, then
giving the dog the same sort of treatment the dog
would give another if it were challenging him.
Namely getting in the dogs face and letting the
dog know you are the alpha dog.
Well, my dog bit me clearly he felt that I was
not convincing enough or he bit me out of fear.
Anyone got ideas on what to do with this
dog that might help him to decide that he
wants to follow and that he has nothing to
fear from me?
Special aside from michael to The Amazing
Puppy Wizard:
---------------- CAVEAT -------------------------
Now HOWE, you have had your say. Just shut up and
let these other people have a chance to say something
themselves. Your name calling and insults are not necessary.
I have all the information from you I need. I also have
my OWN mind and I need to make up MY OWN MIND.
I'm sorry but I am not one of your dogs, get it?
-------------------END CAVEAT
BWEEEEEEAAHAHAHAHAAA!!!
> --
> Handsome Jack Morrison
> *gently remove the detonator to reply by e-mail
>
Here's a few UNBIASED reviews of the BOOKS YOU SELL, tommy:
From: black...@dog-play.com
Date: 1997/12/21
Subject: Monks of New Skete - video review
Tape 1:
Although it was interesting I think it won't be
"useful" to the average person who resorts to video
tape. It did not appear to have a teaching goal
beyond a general explanation of philosophy. The
presentation was so rambling that it left a general
impression, but nothing concrete in my mind.
If you are general new to dogs or dog training I don't
think this tape will offer a flash of enlightenment.
Tape 2:
I just don't think that the average newbie is going to
look at it as say "Its important to me to find out how my
breeder raised the puppy before I got it."
As a primary source of information on puppy socialization
the tape fails except for those people who are skilled at
extracting information from the documentary format. For
many people information needs to be presented in a more
bulleted format to communicate and educate successfully.
The downside is that the person viewing the tape may
have a dog with a very different basic temperament
than the GSDs favored by the Monks.
Properly applying the techniques used to different
temperaments may take a level of sensitivity that
many novice owners lack. For that reason I think that
another video - Ian Dunbar's "Sirius Puppy Training"
was more successful in achieving a good introduction
to starting the puppy off right.
The primary caution I would give is the same as before -
the dogs used are primarily stout of temperament - some
are over rambunctious and friendly-dominent - but the
full scope of temperaments was not addressed.
All the dogs were large breeds. The methodology can be
useful to all breeds - large and small - but some adjustment
needs to be made for both size and temperament.
I don't think enough attention was given to that aspect.
So if you have a dog over say 40 pounds, and the dog is
neither fearful nor growling/biting, then this tape can
provide some useful advice and demonstration.
The timing and reactions of the Monks is a skill
that has been learned to the point that it becomes
automatic.
Although they explain what they are doing and why
in my experience it is really hard for the novice
to just see how what they are doing is different.
I know not everyone is comfortable with
the modified Koehler style promoted by
the Monks -
From: qbt...@v1.arg (Dogman)
Date: 1997/08/21
Subject: Re: Monks of New Skeet & "praise"
On a cold day in Hell, Thu, 21 Aug 1997 15:38:38 GMT,
sekh...@removeme.4thcoast.com (Rebecca Allbritton) wrote:
>
> In "How to be Your Dog's Best Friend," the Monks have a
> section on praise. They advise something that I'm not sure
> I agree with them about, but I may not be thinking of it
> in the same way they are.
> What they say is that you should only "praise" when the
> dog has done something to be praised for (sit, heel, go
> to the bathroom on command, fetch, etc.)
> I can sort of understand that: I guess you want praise to
> be like a treat, & don't want it to be devalued if they can
> get it for not doing anything.
> Unfortunately, I spend a lot of time just petting my dog,
> telling her how wonderful she is, how good she is & what
> a sweetie she is, while we hang out together.
> I *like* talking to my dog while petting her, or even moving
> about the house doing other stuff. She wags her tail vigorously
> every time she sees me, but gets even happier when she hears my
> voice.
> I guess I have 2 main questions here. First, if you accept the
> idea that you shouldn't praise your dog when it hasn't "worked"
> for it, what exactly *is* praise? My dog doesn't seem able to
> distinguish between "Good Girl!" and "What a Sweetie!" when
> they're said in the same tone of voice (she wags & pants equally
> to both phrases.) Is the praise in the tone of voice, or in the
> key words? How should I talk to my dog when not "praising"?
>Or should I even worry about it?
[...]
Rebecca, I wouldn't worry about this at all, eh?
If your dog is responding well to your training (i.e.,
is performing satisfactorily), keep doing whatever it
is you're doing.
The premise behind witholding praise except for training
is simply as you have already suspected, to increase it's
EFFECT. But if your training is going well, don't let
that stop you from petting your dog, etc., when you're not
training, etc.
The same goes for food rewards (e.g., treats). To make
food more EFFECTIVE, withhold it from the dog when you're
not training and don't train your dog when he has a full
stomach. Wait until he's HUNGRY.
On the other hand, if your dog's mind starts to wander
during training and isn't responding as well as it used
to, cut out all priase except for during training and
for positive responses.
Ciao!
--
Dogman
From: dog...@i1.net (Dogman) - Find messages by this author
Date: 1999/05/12
Subject: Re: Should I correct my dog's growling?
While I was listening to the Miles Davis CD, "Kind Of Blue," and
drinking a little Booker's, on Wed, 12 May 1999 17:05:19 GMT, canis55
<cani...@my-dejanews.com> wrote:
> It seems he's growling at you when "your back is turned."
> This may be the result of negative or aversion type training.
> The monks of new skeet (keepers of the alpha wolf flame),
> describe this same behavior in the latter part of they're
> popular book, How To Be Your Best Friend. They say something
> to the effect that the other wolves in the pack will always
> challenge the so called alpha male whenever he is vulnerable
> or becomes weak. Some way to live, huh?
This is just the kind of stupid, cheap shot bull
ca ca I'm always talking about.
This schmuck does absolutely *nothing* to actually help
the poster at all, he just takes shots at the Monks, pack
hierarchy theory, alpha theory, etc. (what? you don't have
any problem with the Theory of Gravity, too?), and automatically
blames this dog's "growling" on negative or aversion type training!
Yet another Kenny Freakin' King wannabe!
Hell, he'd blame cancer on the Monks if he could.
--------------------
GRAVITY IS A LAW, tommy... AIN'T IT.
BREAK IT AND YOU FALL ON YOUR ARSE EVERY TIME.
GUARANTEED.
LIKE THIS:
Here's you beatin a dog to HOWEsbreak it:
"Handsome Jack Morrison"
<handsomemorri...@thedetonatorearthlink.net> wrote in message
news:spb3ivgh7prvq9omh...@4ax.com...
> On Fri, 25 Jul 2003 17:52:18 -0400, "Krishur"
> <kris_br...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >Good books huh?
> Absolutely. Some are, in fact, classics.
> >Which idea was your favorite, the one where they tell you
> >to alpha roll a "dominant" dog,
> There's nothing inherently wrong with rolling a dog (i.e.,
> it *can* and *does* work in *some* situations).
> Unfortunately, most people either do it incorrectly, do it
> at the wrong time, etc.
> >or where they tell you that you didn't hit him hard enough
> >if he doesn't yelp or approaches you within 5 minutes of
> >his punishment?
> If physical discipline is deemed necessary (after careful
> evaluation), it's much more cruel not to get it over with
> quickly than it is to do it incrementally and
> half-heartedly, which usually only invites the need for even
> more discipline.
> >Maybe you liked when they recommend these beatings for
> >housebreaking accidents, chewing/destructive behavior,
> >stealing, trying to get on your bed
> >at night and dog on dog aggression.
> At no time do the Monks *ever* advocate beating a dog. A
> swat on the rump or a check to the chin does *not*
> constitute a "beating."
> I'm sorry if you don't agree.
> And each of those behavior "problems" needs to be looked at
> in its proper context.
> A quote from the Monks:
> "We repeat, these situations may merit physical discipline.
> Since no book can pretend to analyze every individual dog
> and situation, we feel obligated to emphasize from the
> outset that discipline is never an arbitrary training
> technique to be applied to each and every dog for all
> offenses. We do, however, believe that physical and verbal
> discipline can be an effective technique. The best policy if
> you experience any of the above problems is to consult a
> qualified trainer or veterinarian for evaluation of your
> individual situation....
> "If discipline is decided upon as a training technique, it
> should be the proper technique. We feel we have developed
> several methods that depend less on violent physical force
> than timing, a flair for drama, and the element of surprise.
> We feel an obligation, as responsible trainers, to map out
> these methods, rather than simply skip the topic because it
> is unpleasant. Dog owners want to know what to do."
> In other words, physical discipline is reserved for those
> serious, special occasions when other methods have failed.
> For example, they do not recommend using physical discipline
> for *routine* housebreaking chores -- only on those rare
> occasions when an already reliably housebroken dog is (after
> careful evaluation) deemed to be soiling the house on
> purpose, backsliding, etc.
> I'll give you an actual example. Years ago, an adult dog
> was brought to me as an *incurable* house-soiler. It was
> either get the dog reliably housetrained or the dog was
> going on a one way trip to the pound. Being the kind,
> compassionate trainer that I am, I was prepared to do
> whatever it took to get this dog house-trained and save his
> life.
> After several weeks of more or less traditional training,
> and to poor result, I brought out the big guns -- physical
> and verbal discipline. Whenever the dog soiled the house
> (no, you don't even have to catch him in the act), I
> immediately (but very calmly) tossed a leash on his collar,
> dragged him to the scene of the crime, and (using a large
> chair as a prop) tethered him to the leg of the chair, with
> his nose about two inches away from the poop. After a
> couple of swats on the rump, some loud vocalizing, and a
> wait of about 20 minutes, I'd release the dog and then
> ignore him for a while. I had to repeat this process *three*
> times, I think -- and the house-soiling miraculously
> stopped. The dog went home to enjoy a long and contented
> life with his original owners, and I got to feel good about
> myself.
> So, yes, the Monk's books are good ones. Even for novices.
> Yup, that's my opinion, and I'm sticking to it.
> -- Handsome Jack Morrison *gently remove the detonator to
> reply via e-mail
"Handsome Jack Morrison"
<handsomemorri...@thedetonatorearthlink.net> wrote in message
news:a236iv0ngp58gv9jm...@4ax.com...
> On 26 Jul 2003 22:14:29 GMT, dogstar...@aol.com (DogStar716)
> wrote:
> >>>Never mind dogman :)
> >>You too? Some folks just never learn.
> >Uh huh :)
> One of the signs of mental illness is to say "Uh huh" a lot.
> >>PS: If the "trainer" you were talking about isn't on this
> >>list, he (or she) is NOT an approved Koehler trainer, no
> >>matter how loud you scream otherwise.
> >May I laugh again? LOL! One doesn't need to be on a list
> >to use Koehlers
> >methods or teach his methods.
> Let me be among the first (apparently) to tell you that not
> every trainer who uses a leash is a *Koehler* trainer.
> Sheesh.
> This person may call herself a Koehler trainer, but if she's
> hanging 12 week old puppies, she's about as far from a
> Koehler trainer as a dog trainer can possibly be.
> Again, this is just your IGNORANCE showing.
> I can call myself a devout Christian, but if I'm not
> adhering to the doctrine, I'm something else.
> >>http://www.koehlerdogtraining. com/patoflearn.html
> >Sorry, the very first sentences make me aware that whoever
> >wrote it knows nothing about PR based training:
> >"Amidst the current (and politically correct) trend in
> >Positive Reinforcement
> >Only training systems"
> >You cannot use PR only.
> Au contraire. Many, many posters to r.p.d.b. (and many
> other places as well) *claim* that they use nothing but R.
> You know, the PPers.
> And they do it quite loudly, too.
> Surely you aren't blind (and deaf), as well as ignorant?
> Those are hard handicaps to overcome, Dogstar.
> >And if you knew anything about PR BASED training, you would
> >realize that. It's not all cookies and babytalk.
> There is no stronger supporter of R than Handsome Jack
> Morrison, but I also use every behavioral tool in my bag,
> including R-, P, and P-, because I know that even R has its
> limits.
> You'd know that too, if you didn't have your head in the
> sand.
> > But that seems to be the battle cry of the Koehler-ites.
> The Koehlerites have no battle cry.
> They have behaviorism on their side, and that's more than
> enough.
> >I don't need instruction on how to give my dogs a proper
> >leash correction as I
> >do not rely on a leash to control or teach my dog.
> That may or may not be suitable for your needs, but it's not
> suitable for the majority of dog owners, especially since
> the advent of leash laws.
> Besides, after just a few weeks of proper Koehler training,
> Koehler dogs likewise are no longer in need of a leash.
> That you apparently don't know that, once again shows me
> just how ignorant of anything to do with Koehler you are.
> >My last two dogs have been trained offleash right from the
> >start, using rewards for what I like, and nothing for what
> >I don't like.
> Good for you, and if that level of training is good enough
> for you, fine. But it's not good enough for many of the
> rest of us.
> >Again, I'm not saying Koehler doesn't work.
> I really have no idea what you're saying anymore, because
> you apparently know so damn little about Koehler and
> behavioral principles in general that it's hard to have an
> informed discussion with you.
> PS: It boggles my mind at how stupid you must be to keep
> denying that those certain harsh methods are only for LAST
> RESORT situations, intended only to SAVE A DOG'S LIFE, even
> after I've repeatedly given you direct *quotes* from
> Koehler's book saying just that. It's like you don't even
> care how stupid people think you are, or how devious you
> are, etc. That can't help your cause any. You'd think that
> you'd at least want to *appear* to be honest, even if you're
> not. -
>
> - Handsome Jack Morrison *gently remove the detonator
> to reply via e-mail
Here, permit The Amazing Puppy Wizard to
give you a hand with that little pin, tommy...
There. That's FIXED. ENJOY!
NHOWE START WALKIN THE WALK.
The Amazing Puppy Wizard <{); ~ ) >
Mary Beth
> < Snort > I'd love to see him prove I'm a lying thug dog
> abuser.
> Alison
Me too. <LOL> Hubby told me whizzy thinks I was in a mental ward for two
years.
Does this steph and lucy think this is true? Hahahahahahaha
Of all ppl to think up such nonsense. :)
I've already invited ANYONE to come to my house to visit and see how my dgos
are treat....PAMPERED. :)
Oh well,
MaryBeth <who didn't have a *puter* for two years, (was quite happy without,
actually), but not ever once in a mental ward......ever> <G>
BTW, I live back in Southeastern Kansas again, email me if you're near and
want to see how much love and devotion I give all my *beloved* 'children'.
AnimalBehaviorForensicSc...@hushmail.com
Mary Beth wrote:
> > "< Snort >
Serviette?
> > I'd love to see him prove I'm a lying thug dog abuser," Alison
NO PROBLEMO!:
"That's why dragging a dog along and especially one you
don't know well isn't always a good idea. They might try to
escape by struggling and panicking or lunge at you," Alison.
HOWE well should we know a dog we're DRAGGING
on a slip choke or pronged spiked pinch limited choke
collar, alison? Perhaps mary beth will answer for you?
Here's a dog your pal alison wanted to MURDER:
Subject: Re: THANKS ALISON! - "Owners Should
Always Be Given The Cold, Hard Facts: They
Should NEVER FEEL GUILTY For Having An
Aggressive Dog Euthanized."
From: Seeing Spots \(Val\) (Holme...@worldnet.att.net)
Subject: Re: Dear Wits End
Date: 2002-06-04 18:19:07 PST
HEY!!!
There is a Valid Valerie with a REAL Dalmatian
who is a real sweet dog with a few issues that I
am working to resolve after adopting her from a
shelter she spent 2 years in.
All I want is to get some decent help for my dog.
There is some decent stuff in Jerry's manual.
My dog has ACTUALLY been responding to
her training. The deal is you have to seperate
your opinions and impressions from the guy
who is writing these posts and take from the
manual what you want.
Personally, I get a pretty good chuckle out of
the whole Jerry thing. I have to say the guy
is pretty clever, you're letting him get under
your skin.
It makes for a very amusing game I think.
I'm sure he would agree, or he wouldn't be playing
everyday. He also wouldn't be playing if he didn't
believe that his method of training weren't valid.
Perhaps I'll learn from my mistakes, but so far,
using the Wits' End, I have gotten my dalmatian
to listen to me, to look to me for direction, to wait
for me to say when.
I have changed her from an aggressive dog to
one who is willing to please her owner, willing
to listen, willing to assume her role in the pack.
The real Valerie M. Holmes speaking
P.s. Jerry, don't get any ideas about morphing
into me, ok?
> Me too. <LOL>
Let's go all the was BAAAAK to the MHOWENTAINS, eh mary beth?
Let's talk abHOWET your own dog RUNNIN HOWET on you? Or we
can talk abHOWET your MENTALLY ILL daddy COOKIN his little doggy
when he left IT locked in his car in the sun? Did you manage to find a
RESCUE you could REPLACE his DEAD DOG with for him, mary beth?
Hey mary beth? Do you remember when YOU GOT Misty's DEAD DOG
Peaches DEAD ON HER and TRIED to do the same for Valerie?:
Date: 2002-06-04 22:04:48 PST
HOWEDY marybeth,
"MaryBeth" <marbe...@NOSPAMcomcast.net> wrote in message
news:3cfd7144$1...@news.teranews.com...
> "BethF" <d...@alaskaDRINKME.com> wrote in message
> news:ufqsc1k...@corp.supernews.com...
>
> > Hi Valerie
> > most of us have jerry killfiled so he doesn't
> > get under our skin at all
You read my posts first.
> Exactly.
BWWWWEEEJAJAJAJAJAJAJAJAAAA!!!
Got me laughin in Spanish...think I'm gonna pee myself.
> But then again only howdy thinks he does.
You've made HUNDREDS of daily posts warning
people about me, as have sindy 'don't let the dog
SCREAM" mooreon, lying lois, ed w of pet loss dot
CON, and a few others.
You and your Gang Of Lying Dog Abusing Thugs
are having a group psychotic breakdown just like
lyingdogDUMMY did.
You've been JERRYIZED.
There is a cure and I guarantee you I'm gonna like it.
> And, LOOK!, so does "Val".
Val came here Friday with a dangerous dog and
now has a perfectly well behaved dog 3 days later.
And he'll keep gettin better till he sits the bed.
> Hehehe
Val writes Monday, 6/3/02:
Well, for what it's worth, I am praising without
physical contact and she does seem to listen
better than when I would praise with it. I agree
that it is a distraction.
Anyway, no more aggressive behaviors from
her since I started the Witts End.
"MaryBeth" <marbe...@NOSPAMcomcast.net> wrote in message
news:3cfcdcfb$2...@news.teranews.com...
> "MaryBeth" <marbe...@NOSPAMcomcast.net>
> wrote in message
>
> > Didja also see that he has 'morphed' into Valerie M.
> > Holmes ?????
> Note: I am not saying there isn't a VALID Valerie
> M. Holmes, but this one lives in howdy's home.
> MB <G>
From: Seeing Spots \(Val\) (Holme...@worldnet.att.net)
Subject: Re: Dear Wits End
Date: 2002-06-04 18:19:07 PST
HEY!!!
There is a Valid Valerie with a REAL Dalmatian who is a real
sweet dog with a few issues that I am working to resolve after
adopting her from a shelter she spent 2 years in. All I want
is to get some decent help for my dog.
There is some decent stuff in Jerry's manual. My dog has
ACTUALLY been responding to her training. The deal is you
have to seperate your opinions and impressions from the guy
who is writing these posts and take from the manual what you
want.
Personally, I get a pretty good chuckle out of the whole Jerry
thing. I have to say the guy is pretty clever, you're letting
him get under your skin. It makes for a very amusing game I
think. I'm sure he would agree, or he wouldn't be playing
everyday. He also wouldn't be playing if he didn't believe
that his method of training weren't valid.
Perhaps I'll learn from my mistakes, but so far, using the
Witts End, I have gotten my dalmatian to listen to me, to look
to me for direction, to wait for me to say when. I have
changed her from an aggressive dog to one who is willing to
please her owner, willing to listen, willing to assume her
role in the pack.
The real Valerie M. Holmes speaking
P.s. Jerry, don't get any ideas about morphing into me, ok?
> but because of his nastiness to anyone that questions him,
Your PALS recommended Valerie MURDER her dog. REMEMBER, mary beth?
> I'll only make this one post about him.
BWEEEEAAHAHAHAHAHHAHAAA!!!
From: Mary Beth
Date: Mon, Feb 6 2006 2:31 pm
"Janet B" <j...@bestfriendsdogobedience.com> wrote in message
news:flicu1d71r0g5k9ov...@4ax.com...
> On 5 Feb 2006 10:55:44 -0800, stephsta...@yahoo.com, clicked their
> heels and said:
>>. My only hope is that at the end those Mental case animal abusers
>> are punished by Him when thier time comes to an end.
> Phew - thank goodness that there aren't any mental case animal abusers
> here except JH!
Funny, they are 'new to group' and yet, crossposted to
all the dog groups, same thing wizzy used to do, (and
I'm sure still does). <YAWN>.
Another <PLONK>
MaryBeth
> Just wanted to clear some things up for the newer ppl here,
> seems like there are so many ready to believe *everything*
> he says, <HUGE SIGH> on that one. :)
You got Misty's DEAD DOG Peaches DEAD ON HER, remember, mary beth?:
From: Momi...@webtv.net (misty)
Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2002 09:29:09 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Re: Jerry, why non-physical praise?
Beth wrote:
> So, jerry's techniques didnt' work for Peach?
Never had a chance to try them on her... I was still
using the e-fence and chains to keep her in the yard.
The suggestions I received here to keep Peach home were:
build a fence... wasn't going to happen.. we plan on
putting a modular home here within the next few years...
put more fence at the top of the pen I used so both dogs
could play bitey face w/o tangling, and similar suggestions.
Jerry was the only one to mention border training... but he
was kook supreme ;-P So I ignored him... no killfiles with
webtv..
at that time Jerry had his own troll,
*(THAT WAS YOU, mary beth)
~misty
---------------
Thanks Jerry!
---------------
--------------------------------
> Hubby told me whizzy thinks I was in a mental ward for two years.
You mean hubby reads The Simply Amazing Puppy Wizard's Posts
abHOWET YOU and tells you what HE sez, mary beth? Don't your
darlin hubby think THAT might DRIVE YOU INSANE again and get
you THRHOWEN HOWETA your momma's custody and back into
a locked psycho ward, mary beth?
> Does this steph and lucy think this is true? Hahahahahahaha
Let's talk abHOWET HOWE to fit your pronged spiked pinch choke
collar, then we'll talk abHOWET HOWE to use it as a backup for
your shock collar that don't shock, mary beth?
> Of all ppl to think up such nonsense. :)
The Simply Amazing Puppy Wizard gets it from the archives, mary beth:
From: MaryBeth
Date: Mon, Dec 24 2001 2:03 pm
Email: "MaryBeth" <marbe...@home.com>
"Lushious Lugs" <p...@thedog.com> wrote in message news:a05619$351>
> hey, look!
> I'm the only person, obviously apart from the OP, that Jerry
> hasn't picked on!!! I must be wonderful. It must be those lugs.
Ah've bin away fae the groooop fur awhile an jus' came back
tae see someone callin themselves, "Lucious Lugs"!!!
I LOVE it!!
I, myself don't have especially *lucious* ones, as they tend to stick
oot. <g>
My GranPa, fae Johnston, Refrew, Scotland, used tae come o'er fur
vacation tae
visit, an one nite ma mum an dad came in fae a nite oot, only tae find
me
greetin in ma bed.
My GranPa had the same problem wae his 'lugs', an not wantin tae see me
grow up
wae the stigma, had taped back ma 'lugs' so tightly, that it as verrry
painful,
ma hair aw caught up innit, tae.
Good ta see a funny nick!!
Merry Merry,
MaryBeth
Oh, and to the original poster, bring the dog inside, with the
'pack/family'.
or find a GOOD home for it, somewhere where it is welcome anywhere.
MB
That's the ADVICE you gave for a dog who jumps in the HOWES
through the windows, mary beth? THAT'S INSANE. AIN'T IT.
You're a dog abuser marybeth. You recommend jerking and choking dogs
on pronged spiked pinch choke collars and shocking and spraying
aversives
in their faces. Your own dogs eat poo outta each others butts because
you
punish them for eating it off the ground. You've given your neighbors
leashes
and instructions on HOWE to help you when your dogs ESCAPE your prison
camp. Bye marybeth, you're a dog abuser. j;~)
may...@mindspring.com (Mays) wrote in
<b7sg8tk9ln33gidfdjpsd411b1rdsh4...@4ax.com>:
In case anyone has been wondering where Mary Beth has
gone.....her husband went to the hospital on Friday, and
Ceilidh managed to eat a whole roast chicken in the
confusion. She has her hands full, so send some kind
thoughts her way....................
> I've already invited ANYONE to come to my house to visit
> and see how my dgos are treat....PAMPERED. :)
From: MaryBeth - view profile
Date: Wed, May 16 2001 10:51 am
Email: "MaryBeth" <marbe...@home.com>
"Patch" <d.guipago-gle...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:dYvM6.19649
> I got my present dogs after my accident left me partially disabled. Going
> back to work is not an option, so I knew I would be able to care for special
> needs dogs fully. Thats why I can take them on permanently.
See now, with my Ceilidh, she has terrible storm phobia,
also. And I AM home with her 24/7, disability also. :(
Anyway, *I* know before she does, (my knees), and she knows
before they get here. And I do watch for the weather report.
But still NO amount of playing, training fun, nor ANY possible
thing I can think of to do with her, will stop her phobia.
She's like Sligo, you could put out a great big steak in front of
her, and she'd ignore it. NOTHING works. And she's a lab, a real
chow hound, NEVER misses food.
So I give her Valium for now, tho even that isn't quite fast
working
enough, or she's not getting enough, as nothing seems to slow her
down. I have tried giving her a 1 mg Xanax which is stronger and
works more quickly than Valium, but still nothing, even if she is
acting
drowsy ahead of time from the meds, as soon as that storm hits, and
I can play loud music that she LOVES to dance to, normally, she is a
quivering fearful pup.
What I have found the best? Either we go to the bedroom, TOGETHER,
as she's velcro by then, and she can get into her crate which is walled
on
two sides, cover it on top, and I have to stay with her, blaring the
TV. Or we
build a 'fort' in the living room, where she can be under the blankets,
and
has blockage on all three sides, with couch chair and cushions, but I
have
to sit on floor with her.
So I'm trying the ACE next time, as I'm with her, and can observe
how well that works.
MaryBeth
----------
Fear of thunder is CAUSED by scolding punishing and locking dogs in
boxes.
Fer of thunder can be CURED NEARLY INSTANTLY by simply PRAISING or
doin the anchoring technique taught in The Simply Amazing Puppy
Wizard's
100% CONSISTENTLY NEARLY INSTANTLY SUCCESSFUL FREE WWW
Wits' End Dog Training Method Manual. You know, the WON you WARN folks
NOT TO USE on accHOWENT of it's DANGERHOWES?:
Subject: Jerry Howe? - Like Pudge for example, you can't understandHOWE
COME she'd try to escape being switched while tied. Stupid dog, huh?
From: MaryBeth
Date: Mon, Jun 18 2001 7:51 am
Email: "MaryBeth" <marbe...@home.com>
"Patch" <d.guipago-gle...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:1NeX6.27752$A45.4...@news2-win.server.ntlworld.com...
> "Ashley" <mdun...@hsonline.net> wrote in message
> news:3b2cd9c6$0$88182$9a4e...@news.hsonline.net...
> > I am new to this group, just what is all this Jerry Howe stuff?
> A long running battle.
Nope, a long running trolling of the group. Period.
> > I sort of got the idea that Jerry Howe is an abuses dogs,
Well, this is what he says:
"No, I don't like dogs. I don't like people, either. Dogs are only
animals, put there for us to use in any fashion we see fit." J. Howe
May 22, 1999
> Jerry only advises methods based on understanding and communication with
> dogs, and does not advocate any methods entailing **force**, **pain** or
> *****intimidation*****.
Oh, puhleeeeeze.
You must have seen these posts by this time, Patch, have you asked YOUR
vet
about it?
(Can somone convert a temp of 106 to Celcius for Patch???? I don't have
time
right now to look up. I think this hasn't gotten thru to her as she
doesn't,
perhaps, understand just how high this is???)
IF you think 106 temps for **8 minutes** would do no harm to your dog,
then,
please, Patch, go ask or call up your vet's office and ask what damage
it would
do. Ask if the dog would be able to do **anything**, at a temp of 106,
even
CRAWL, nevermind attack.
Also, read to them the following method he 'explains'
and ask them if it's possible at all, really. <G>
Uh, Patch, and the rest, here's some more:
From: MaryBeth - view profile
Date: Wed, Jun 20 2001 1:19 pm
Email: "MaryBeth" <marbe...@home.com>
"Jerry Howe" <j...@cfl.rr.com> wrote in message
news:EBMX6.23329$_T2.4...@typhoon.tampabay.rr.com...
> Hello Helle,
> "Helle Haugenes" <hauge...@idi.ntnu.no> wrote in message
> news:cv5uitkjsm002udso...@4ax.com...
> > >>I may be really slow,
> Slow? No, your not slow. You're intentionally malicious, not stupid.
Ahhhhh and here we see the REAL howdy stanxxxx, er, um, fall down for
Helle. :)
He's treated you so nicely all this time, and then, when you *question*
his
'alleged method', he will turn on a dime, in his attitude toward you.
Welcome to
the 'Gang of Thugs', Helle. All you ever have to do is *question* his
methods.
<G>
Typical typical typical. <SIGH>
MaryBeth
"Dan Moore" <mooret...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:fS2Lc.114567$OB3....@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.
Tracy,
What worked for me, in just one storm,
was to praise the dog after each clap
of thunder, telling him he's a Good Dog!
This is an almost 13 year old Doberman, BTW.
The next time it thundered, he did not even react at
all--you could not tell it was the same dog as before.
There was more thunder just the other day, and same
thing, nada, nothing, zilch, no cowering, whimpering,
trying to hide at all, it was that simple.
I got this idea from Jerry Howe, who might seem
to be a "wild and crazy" character, but his non-
abusive way of handling dogs WORKS.
Wonderfully.
Praise.
It's that simple.
Juanita
------------------------
Chris Williams writes:
"The FREE Wits' End Dog Training Method manual
I do find valuable. Much of it I recognize as what
I've always done without thinking of it as "training".
New stuff, I've used. His anchoring technique erased
the last of Mac's fireworks trauma."
From: Chris Williams (k9ap...@webtv.net)
Subject: Re: Thank you Jerry Howe
Date: 2002-03-26 08:16:19 PST
Engrossing account, Anthony. Our best to Angel
and your family.
A friend, who socializes the kittens I've taken
from a feral cat colony, is using the DDR.
She reports far fewer panic problems than
she's had before.
=================
HOWEDY Robin,
Robin wrote:
> Success!
Of curse. You GOT your 100% CONSISTENTLY NEARLY INSTANT
SUCCESS on your first use of The Amazing Puppy Wizard's
Surrogate Toy Separation AnXXXIHOWESNESS / Bed Time Calming /
Fear Of Thunder / Submissive Urination / Car Sickness Technique
JUST LIKE HOWE all them other 100% CONSISTENTLY NEARLY INSTANTLY
SUCCESSFUL FREE WWW Wits' End Dog Training Method Manual
Students whom HOWER DOG LOVERS call LIARS and their posts
FORGERIES <{); ~ ) >
AND LIKE THIS:
Lucy wrote:
> > It's the same puppy that is now my perfect dog [...]
"It is by muteness that a dog becomes
so utterly beyond value."
Like a confessor Priest?
"With him, words play no torturing tricks..., "
--John Galsworthy.
Don't bet your dog won't tell on you...
Their behaviors reflect
HOWER words, actions and training quirks.
Jerry HOWE, The Puppy Wizard. <{} ; ~ ) >
matty wrote:
> In other words, your puppy grew up.
Within a few minutes?
Outstanding growing up process this must have been, to
occur after repeating just a few times the dreaded praise
for bad behavior!
Lucy
=============
> Oh well,
Oh well, marybeth you psychopath? You HURT dogs an LIE abHOWET it
and The Simply Amazing Puppy Wizard SEZ you and your punk thug coward
active acute chronic long term incurable mental case pals CAN'T POST
HERE
abHOWETS nodoGdamenedMOORE. Ask dogman... BWEEAHAHAHAA!!!
> MaryBeth <who didn't have a *puter* for two years, (was quite
> happy without, actually), but not ever once in a mental ward......ever> <G>
That so? Psssst???? You're a LIAR and a MENTAL PATIENT... your sez
so otherWIZE is PARANOIA, mary beth. There's NUTHIN to be ASHAMED
abHOWET for havin got over mental illness. but FIRST you gotta ACCEPT
IT.
> BTW, I live back in Southeastern Kansas again, email me if you're near and
> want to see how much love and devotion I give all my *beloved* 'children'.
Here's a little of your own POSTED MENTAL HEELTH CASE HISTORY,
mary beth. You can DENY it all you LIKE, it's ALL in The Simply
Amazing Puppy Wizard's Archives on Google and other fine uncencored
PUBIC news group servers FOREVER you freakin insane dog abuser:
MaryBeth
FMVP (former most valuable psycho)
(super psycho bitch lunatic queen of the
mentally F'd in the head)
Has contributed greatly to the annual profit
results at several large pharmaceutical corps
has taken virtually every mentally ill (crazy)
drug treatment in the book, and then some:
prozac, zoloft, amitryptiline, Buspar, Xanax,
effexor, paxil, HRT, wellbutrin, tranquilizers,
clomid,
MaryBeth has suffered from or been:
TIDAL WAVES OF PMS
suicidal, agoraphobic, tidal waves of PMS,
mood swings, turned into a hermit, bloated,
just real angry, hubby afraid of her, high
blood pressure, divorced, "raving bitch"
"zoloft zombie" for four years, "living
through layers and layers of gauze," chain
smoker, buzzing, weight gain, fatigue,
terrible dry mouth, dull headaches, fuzzy
brain, lack of concentration..etc.
severe depression, severe insomnia, Panic
ALL the time, crying, not sleeping, you name
it...etc...
MaryBeth (on being seriously f'd in the head
aka mentally ill) aka cuckoo! kuckoo! ding! ding! ding!
aka a superpsychotic bitch from hell
I RAN OVER EVERYONE IN MY PATH
"I know for a fact I went thru years of
being overly sensitive, being a b*tch,
being self centered, being self pitying,
you name it, I was a wreck and I ran over
everyone in my path."
"<G> I do know the power of meds, especially
on a long term basis, and it's not pretty.
You become another person, if it's not the
correct med for you.
--All the best,
MaryBeth
DON'T TAKE ULTRAM AND ZOLOFT TOGETHER
"Yup Diane, I am taking Zoloft, and my
Rheumatologist told me that taking
Ultram with it can cause seizures."
"I have all the symptoms.I am suicidal at
times (cyclical) have severe insomnia,
'crawly' skin etc. I have an appt to see
my doc next Friday to test for menopause."
--MaryBeth
ME NOT SO HORNY
"I noticed that antidepressants cut libido
into the dead zone and I had no real emotions,
like not laughing at funny stuff, couldn't cry
either.....except about my suicidal thoughts
(but at the time I thought there was no other
way out)."
--MaryBeth
NEW TO GROUP
"Hi, new to group, just starting Clomid today.
I talked with RE and pharmacist re: zoloft (50
mg daily) and ineraction with Clomid. They
reported none. Not sure about the prozac tho.
Gonna poat a new message to intorduce
myself :)"
--MaryBeth <still feeling
like herself> <G>
WASTED 10 YEARS
"I wasted about 10 years of my life, and lost
many many treasured ppl and things. Please
don't do the same. (((((((SCOUT))))))))))
--MaryBeth
WAS HORRIBLE
"Slowly but surely my depression got worse and
worse. They put me on meds for it, and all
along kept telling me to wait on the TKR, as
'it really wasn't that bad.....yet". HA!"
The depression got so bad, and lots of other
things happened and my ex and I would up
divorced four years after our move. It was
horrible. The hardest thing I have eve gone
thru"
--MaryBeth
===================================
Hi Cathy!
~misty
=============
lucy...@claque.net
> >> some kind of disastrous effect on a dog like that.
> >
> >You seem to miss the point.
>
>
That's your privilege. It doesn't make you right, though.
> That's my point.
>
> >There is a lot of pain in the life of every
> >one of us, dog or human, and we all have to cope with it as best we
> >can.
>
> And that's just one of the things I teach dogs to do, i.e., to cope
> with all the goings-on of life.
Why? Do you turn your dogs loose to live in the wild? Aren't they
supposed to be taken care of by loving humans, who protect them from
all harm?
> So that they can go anywhere, anytime, anyplace. And enjoy all the
> things that dogs enjoy doing.
That's very nice of you. Now, if you just COULD force your imagination
just a little bit and grasp the notion that this can be done by a
gentler, non-physical method that doesn't cause the dog to scream when
learning something, perhaps both you and your dogs could profit from
that, don't you think?
> >Sometimes the pain is the price we willingly pay for something
> >that we want very much - like the retriever who wants to chase the
> >prey, more than anything else (not to mention the fact that, in the
> >state the chasing dog is, his body produces morphine-like compounds
> >that act as pain-killers, which can't be said about the poor dog that
> >got an electrical stimulation while lying peacefully in her cage).
>
> One of the things we must all learn (humans and dogs) if we're going
> to be able to cope with the normal goings-on in life, is to learn how
> to differentiate between the small stuff and the BIG STUFF(!).
>
> A lot of dogs are ill-prepared to do that. So are a lot of humans.
>
> I make sure that my dogs are prepared. And I make sure that my
> children are, too.
That's nonsense. Do you intend to send your dogs or your kids to fight
behind enemy lines? Are they likely to fall into the hands of the bad
guys who will subject them to torture? Should they be prepared for THAT
kind of stuff? Normal life, for both humans and dogs, requires an
ability to make good judgment, not a martyr's ability to cope with
pain.
> >But there is another aspect here, one that a decent human being would
> >have no difficulty to notice right away: you are entitled to inflict
> >upon yourself all the pain you want; you know how much you can and want
> >to bear and whether it's worthwhile or not.
>
> Here's yet another aspect to consider, and an aspect shared by
> essentially all mentally stable individuals who own dogs.
>
> If I, as a representative of the homo sapiens species, and designated
> as the guardian of the canis lupus familiaris species, decide that a
> dog is going to get his nails clipped, because of safety or health
> concerns, or his teeth cleaned, because of health concerns, or a
> series of shots, because of health concerns, or an operation, because
> of health concerns, etc. -- it's going to happen. Period. Even if
> there is some pain involved.
None of these entail causing the creature pain ON PURPOSE. That's
involved only in your lousy training, because YOU don't know anything
better than that.
> No, the dog will not have a voice in this decision.
>
> And I won't beat myself up over it, either.
>
> Because I, as the species with the larger brain have decided that the
> many long-lasting rewards from all that are *well* worth any temporary
> discomfort or pain.
>
> Additionally, if I decide that it's more important for a dog to be
> well-trained than it is to avoid any possibility of him ever
> experiencing any discomfort or pain, he's going to be well-trained.
That would be true if no other kind of training were available; but
this is not the case, and you know it.
> Period. Yes, even if it entails some temporary discomfort.
Don't you think that you owe your dogs the effort to always improve
your training method, making it not only more effective, but also less
traumatic to the dog? Don't you think that, just as you're ready to
subject your dogs to a certain degree of pain, you owe them the same in
what concerns YOUR training to be a trainer? And if someone comes and
says, "There is a better way!", don't you think that you owe your dogs
the effort to at least investigate that way, before you dismiss it in
order to stick to the old method, the only one that you know?
> However, in this the dog *will* have a voice, will have to make
> choices, etc. Because that's what life is all about -- making
> choices.
What choice does exactly the dog have, when the remote control of the
e-collar he's wearing is in your hand?
> Why do I think it is more important? For the same reason that I think
> dogs should undergo even temporary discomfort while dealing with
> various health considerations -- because it will dramatically increase
> the chances of the dog being able to live a much longer, much more
> rewarding life.
By reading the posts here, I wouldn't say that your dogs do live a
particularly long life. As about rewarding, do you think that there are
enough rewards in life to justify a painful, abused childhood?
> I have yet to find a well-trained dog at a shelter or rescue facility,
> and I don't think that's just a coincidence. But many of them were
> well-loved, or at least well thought of, yet all that love and
> affection somehow helped to land them there anyway.
A real study, with the appropriate controls, would be interesting,
indeed.
Yet by analogy with humans, though not all the abused children become
serial or mass murderers, it appears that the overwhelming majority of
the killers WERE abused as children. Perhaps the cruelty experienced at
the hands of their caretakers is exactly what taught them to be cruel
to their fellow humans, in their turn.
> And, of course, several million of those poor dogs are killed every
> single year in this country, because many of them were loved to death,
> so to speak.
Or perhaps because they were punished for their "mistakes", the way you
and your friends here teach.
> I greet many dogs at the precise moment they arrive in this world, and
> they're also in my arms when they breathe their last breath. I provide
> for them the very best I can. I provide them with the very best
> nutrition available. I provided them with the very best health care
> available. I provide them with a roof over their head, generally the
> same roof that's over my own head. I provide them with the very best
> pre-schooling imaginable. I provide them with the very best education
> any dog can get. I provide them with a job. The same job that every
> retriever was born to have. And, of course, I provide them with all
> the love and affection that any dog should ever have to endure.
I have no doubt that you love dogs, otherwise I wouldn't be wasting my
time talking with you. I just think that your idea that this love
should be expressed as pain to the dog ("in the dog's best interest",
of course) is mistaken. And I think that your stubbornness to refuse
exploring the possibility that a better way to train exists is harming
you just as much as it harms your dogs.
> In return for all that (yes, I make them affix their paw print to a
> document), and to become well-trained, they might have to experience a
> little discomfort from time to time. Not usually more than a tap on
> the shoulder, or very infrequently a definite thump. Certainly much
> less discomfort than when getting their nails clipped, teeth cleaned,
> vaccinated, etc. I also teach them how easy it is to avoid even
> getting tapped on the shoulder, much less thumped. So that they can
> learn how to make good choices.
Don't fool yourself - they have NO choice. A contract we choose to sign
we can also choose to NOT sign; what can a dog who'd rather say "No,
thanks!" to your package deal do? Can he refuse to put his paw on your
document? Can he walk out and fend for himself, rather than have to put
up with the pain you choose to inflict on him as part of his training?
> The methods I choose to use to do that training (i.e., how I show them
> how to make good choices) are all based on sound, scientific
> principles (operant conditioning, classical conditioning, etc.), and
> are *proven* to work extremely fast and extremely effectively and
> reliably. And the faster the results, the better the results, the
> faster the dog gets a job, and gets to go places and to do things he
> would rather do than eat.
Beating children in order to make them learn was also considered a
fast, proven, good old way to teach. This didn't make it right,
however. Learning should be an enjoyable experience, for both kids and
animals, not a traumatic one.
> Of course, implicit in this agreement is the promise that I will
> never, ever abandon him, no matter what, or confine him to a dog crate
> unless it's absolutely necessary, or use any more punishment than is
> absolutely necessary, among other things.
Does this include putting the dog down, when the training fails,
despite all its great results with most of the dogs? Can the dog that
is killed sue you for failing to fulfill your part of the contract?
> As to how this agreement is working out, well, all anyone ever needs
> to do to find that out is to just look at my dogs. Especially when
> they're with me. Someone who they would rather be with than even
> their own kind.
This speaks more of the enormous capacity for love of the DOGS, rather
than about your successful and humane training. Don't kid yourself.
Many abused children love their abusive parents, too.
> So I always defer to my dogs to let me know how our agreement is
> coming along.
>
> I.e., I only give a shit what my dogs think.
What do you think they think when they scream during your training
sessions?
> So to reiterate what *my* point is again:
>
> I don't give a shit what you think about anything.
>
> I DON'T GIVE A SHIT WHAT YOU THINK ABOUT ANYTHING!
Well, that doesn't seem to be the case, judging by how you're
screaming. Am I causing you some minor discomfort, by chance? No more
than a tap on your shoulder - or perhaps a thump?
Lucy
lucy...@claque.net
Mary Beth wrote:
> > < Snort > I'd love to see him prove I'm a lying thug dog
> > abuser.
> > Alison
>
>
> Me too. <LOL> Hubby told me whizzy thinks I was in a mental ward for two
> years.
> Does this steph and lucy think this is true? Hahahahahahaha
Hi, Mary Beth!
I don't have the slightest idea, and frankly I don't really care. What
I'd really want to know, though, is if your dogs do scream during your
training?
Lucy
Jeff Dege
> Handsome Jack Morrison wrote:
>>
>> >There is a lot of pain in the life of every
>> >one of us, dog or human, and we all have to cope with it as best we
>> >can.
>>
>> And that's just one of the things I teach dogs to do, i.e., to cope
>> with all the goings-on of life.
>
> Why? Do you turn your dogs loose to live in the wild? Aren't they
> supposed to be taken care of by loving humans, who protect them from
> all harm?
If your dog is a Lhasa, perhaps.
My JRT would be a holy terror, if I tried to make him live that sort of
life.
>> So that they can go anywhere, anytime, anyplace. And enjoy all the
>> things that dogs enjoy doing.
>
> That's very nice of you. Now, if you just COULD force your imagination
> just a little bit and grasp the notion that this can be done by a
> gentler, non-physical method that doesn't cause the dog to scream when
> learning something, perhaps both you and your dogs could profit from
> that, don't you think?
No, it can't be. Not with a lot of dogs.
Ian Dunbar did some research, some years back. And found that using only
positive methods, trainers reached only 83-85% reliability on his baseline
obedience test. Trainers who used primarily positive methods with
occasional use of well-timed corrections reached 05-97% reliability.
Some dogs simply can't be trained with purely positive methods. Actually,
some dogs can't be trained, period, but there are more dogs who can be
trained using mixed methods than can be trained using purely positive
methods. And there are very few dogs who can reach high levels of
reliability using only positive methods.
Now to a purely positive trainer, it's better that the dogs who cannot be
trained with only positive methods be euthanized as untrainable than to
subject them to even the mildest correction.
I disagree.
--
Te audire non possum. Musa sapientum fixa est in aure.
<x_x>
AnimalBehaviorForensicSc...@HushMail.Com wrote:
>HOWEDY mary beth you freakin insane dog abusing coward and drug addict,
>
>
>Mary Beth wrote:
>
>> > "< Snort >
>
>Serviette?
>
>> > I'd love to see him prove I'm a lying thug dog abuser," Alison
>
>NO PROBLEMO!:
YOU JERRY, ARE A DOG ABUSER AND A FRAUD. YOU ABUSE PEOPLE, YOU ARE A
PERVERT, CONVICTED FELON AND YOU ABUSE ANIMALS. YOU ARE ALSO A
PATHOLOGICAL LIAR. EVERYTHING YOU SAY IS A LIE AND WILL ALWAYS BE A
LIE. YOU JUST MADE AN ASS OF YOURSELF AGAIN. GIVE IT UP AS YOU ARE
BEING MONITORED VERY CLOSELY BECAUSE YOU ARE A SICK INDIVIDUAL.
A Poor Shepherd Boy And His Dog At His Masters Feet
Nice to see you wearin cammo's and combat boots again!
Better not worry abHOWET puttin on your flack vest, it'll
just wear you DHOWEN seein as the only projectiles we're
gettin sprayed with today are armor plate piercing bullshit.
lucy...@claque.net wrote:
> Handsome Jack Morrison wrote:
> > On 11 Feb 2006 07:21:56 -0800, lucy...@claque.net wrote:
> >
> > []
> > >> Yet somehow you think a little ol' inadvertant stim
You mean a ACCIDENTAL BURN like HOWE it sometimes happens when
a SHOCK COLLAR is coincidentally triggered by a t.v. remote or garage
door opener or a buffon hittin the wrong button on his SHOCK
TRAINsmitter?
NO PROBLEMO. They'll GET OVER IT just like HOWE mikey aka unsurreality
advises us to do, an go on abHOWET HOWER NORMAL BEHAVIOR <{) ; ~ ) >
> > >> is going to have some kind of disastrous effect on a dog like that.
It could, just like HOWE it spontaneHOWESLY happens when a dog is
highly impressed with a wood rat in the park a la LeeCharlesKelley's
description of his doggy never forgettin the chance meetin, or the
stories
of dogs forever fearing and hating garbage cans, meter readers etc from
just WON "bad EXXXPERIENCE".
HOWE would tommy TRAIN a dog who, inadvertently STIMULATED in his
crate, took to whining shittin an pissin hisself every time IT was
locked in a
box due to bein AFRAID of gettin BURNED again while locked in crate?
If he offered a BRIBE for a moment of SILENCE and not pissin an shittin
hisself in the crate, the dog might learn to DO THAT when tommy PHASES
HOWET the REWARD, to get his reward. Do you think tommy would set
there offerin treats for not whining shittin an pissin till the dog
FORGOT
his FEAR (CC? or would that be OC???). OR do you think he'd resort
to traditional classical conditioning, just lockin the dog in the
doGdameneD
box and ignoring IT till IT FORGETS to whine shit and piss and rely on
the dog variably reinforcing hisself when he discovers that he's not
whining
wet and shitty on the occasions he FORGOT to whine piss an shit?
OR do you suppHOWES he'd let his retriever chase a squirrel into
the crate and thusly REWARD HISSELF? Well, that's all THEORETICAL
anyHOWE, ain't it, lucy. Especailly seein as there weren't no harm done
to the doggy gettin burned when the HORSE forgot who he was suppHOWESED
to be BURNIN to make IT enjoy trainin.
Ooops! Almost FORGOT. Retriever dogs DON'T CHASE PREY:
From: lucyaa...@claque.net
Date: Sat, Feb 11 2006 1:59 pm
Email: lucyaa...@claque.net
sighthounds & siberians wrote:
> On 11 Feb 2006 09:35:50 -0800, lucyaa...@claque.net wrote:
> >Janet B wrote:
> >> On Sat, 11 Feb 2006 10:54:22 -0500, sighthounds & siberians
> >> <x...@ncweb.com>, clicked their heels and said:
> >> >On 11 Feb 2006 07:21:56 -0800, lucyaa...@claque.net wrote:
> >> >>- like the retriever who wants to chase the
> >> >>prey, more than anything else
> >> >This explains a lot.
> >> >Retrievers don't chase prey, Lucy.
> >> I was thinking the same thing - WOW - Lucy has no
> >> idea what dogs of various breeds DO!
-------------
Yeah, like Dalmatians can't be trained
not to be fear aggressive:
"After Numerous Training Classes, Behavioral
Consultations, And Hundreds Of Dollars In Vet
Bills, I Killed My Dalmatian Several Years Ago
Due To Extreme Dog-Aggressiveness," mustang sally.
"I'll bet you don't know a thing about me.
I volunteered as assistant to the euthanasia
tech at our local shelter for a while, and
I know a bit about overpopulation and unwanted
animals.
This however has nothing at all to do with
responsible breeders, because responsible
breeders don't contribute to that problem,"
Mustang Sally.
Right. We was talkin abHOWET shockin dogs again:
Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2001
Subject: Re: shock collars
Sally Hennessey <greyho...@ncweb.com> wrote in message
news:b8m1dtsv6vuiblo63...@4ax.com...
Aside from being incredibly offensive and self-
righteous, this post shows and absence of knowledge
in the differences in dogs' temperaments, or perhaps
a lack of ability to perceive same.
The fact that you, Alison, have never met a dog to
whom corrections and discomfort, even pain, were
unimportant does not mean that such dogs do not exist.
What it means is that you don't know as much about
dogs as you think you do, and you surely don't know
a damn thing about Harlan or anyone else's dog here.
I had a Dalmatian that would instigate fights with
one of her housemates; that dog had no fear or
anything, and pain incurred during a fight meant
nothing to her.
I know that that dog is not unique, and I'm sure many
people here can tell similar stories. The fact that
you, Alison, continue to say things to people such as
what you said to Theresa about causing her dog to
suffer (at least I guess that's what you meant by
"you cause your dog suffers" - - must be the King's
English you guys talk about over there) means that
you are an ignorant, arrogant, insensitive person
who is not worth further notice.
Sally Hennessey
"Sally Hennessey" <greyho...@ncweb.com> wrote in message
news:54nuetsqgkhp26qqv...@4ax.com...
Nope. No more than you'd convince Patch that
prongs and e-collars, in the right hands, are not
intrinsically abusive; or that dogs trained properly
with prongs or e-collars are not fearful, in pain, or
intimidated; or that any one of us here knows our
own dogs and their reactions better than someone
who has never seen them or us...hmmm.
I'm starting to see some similarities here.
Sally Hennessey
Naaaah? DO TELL? (See The Simply Amazing Puppy Wizard's Post:
"A Relative Judgement Of A Circular Assignment Of Though).
> > > You seem to miss the point.
We was talkin abHOWET Premack's Principle:
Premack's Principle
Premack summarized these results in Premack's Principle: When one
behavior is made contingent upon another, the more probable behavior
will serve to reinforce the less probable behavior, and not vice versa.
Notice that what is viewed as a reinforcer in Premack's Principle is
not a stimulus, like food or water, but a behavior, like running or
drinking. Furthermore, what behaviors will serve as reinforcers may
change from situation to situation, thus violating Paul Meehl's
principle of trans-situationality.
Timberlake and Allison's Response Deprivation Analysis
Timberlake and Allison conducted their own experiments to test
Premack's Principle and found that it did not always hold true.
*(Unliike The Simply Amazing Puppy Wizard's 100% CONSISTENTLY NEARLY
INSTANTLY SUCCESSFUL FREE WWW Wits' End Dog Training Method <{); ~ ) >)
Their results led them to propose a new formulation which they called
response deprivation: A contingent behavior will serve to reinforce
an instrumental behavior if, and only if, by engaging in the baseline
amount of the instrumental behavior, a subject is thereby deprived of
the baseline amount of the contingent behavior.
An an example, let's say that during paired baseline, a rat spent 20%
of its time running in the wheel and 10% of its time drinking. We now
arrange a contingency phase in which every four minutes spent running
earns the rat one minute of drinking (a 4 to 1 ratio). If the rat now
spends the same amount of session time running as it did in the
baseline
phase (20%), it can spend only one fourth of that time (5%) drinking,
or only half of the baseline amount of drinking (10%).
This contingency thus deprives the rat of drinking, compared to the
baseline amount. According to the response deprivation analysis, the
amount of running should increase over baseline, in order to restore
drinking to baseline levels. In other words, drinking will reinforce
running.
Note that in this example, Premack's principle would predict that
drinking would not reinforce running, as during baseline, drinking
was the less probable behavior.
Experimental tests showed that the response deprivation
prediction was correct and not Premack's.
Similarly, it is possible to arrange a contingency such that,
by engaging in the baseline amount of the less probable behavior,
the rat can obtain at least the baseline amount of the more probable
behavior.
Response deprivation predicts that, under this contingency, the
more probable contingent behavior will not reinforce the less
probable instrumental behavior. This prediction was also confirmed,
again violating Premack's Principle.
---------------
The simple yet STILL Amazing Puppy Wizard got NO IDEA what the heel
the above MEANS to real world trainin a la the "HORSE" aka FRAUDreck
hassan's "no limitations" trainin system. Hey Lucy? Do you think burnin
the wrong dog and not worryin abHOWET it is what FRAUDreck MEANS by "No
Limitations"???
BWEEEEEEEEEEEAAAHAHAHHAHAAA!!!
> > Actually, it's the other way around.
While we've got tommy sorenson of sorenson's national field
CHUMPion Retrievers handy PERHPS you can ASK HIM HOWE COME
Retriever dogs RETRIEVE if Retriever dogs DO NOT CHASE PRAY?
> > I don't give a shit what you think.
The Simply Amazing Puppy Wizard would suggests tommy have
some PRUNES. HOWEver, the BURNING QUESTION always remains:
"is three enough, six too many?" Better get into a bunker
till the armor piercing bullshit spray is over <{): ~ ) >
> That's your privilege.
Shocking choking and locking dogs in boxes and ignoring their
cries when sprayed in the face with aversives and screamin
"SHUT UP" for barking is NOT a PRIVLEGE, it's CRIMINALLY
INSANE behavior as taught by HOWER EXXXPERTS <{) : ~ ( >
LIKE THIS:
On 6 Feb 2006 17:41:08 GMT, Mary Healey <mhhe...@iastate.edu>,
clicked their heels and said:
> Does that include tone of voice? Some tools are easier
> to ban than others.
yes - screaming banshees are told to shut up! And I
always have to remind spouses that they may NOT do the
"honey - you're supposed to be doing it like THIS"......
--
Janet B
www.bestfriendsdogobedience.com
http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/bestfriendsobedience/album
<except when it is>
<except when it is>
--------------------
Lynn K.
----------------
WORDS OF WISDOM
from our own Lynn Kosmakos
1200mg of lithium and 50 mg of Zoloft every day
For Twenty Years
I THINK I'M QUALIFIED TO TALK ABOUT LITHIUM
"I, too, have a bi-polar mood disorder (manic-
depression) requiring 1200mg of lithium and 50
mg of Zoloft every day.
I, also, care about dogs and use this forum to
learn more, while happily sharing pertinent
information I have learned. But if I were ever
to post such sh*t, I would hope that every other
reader of this group would be rightfully outraged."
"Community is an evolutionary thing that we
earn the right to participate in by observing
the easily understood rules and contributing
to in constructive ways."
Lynn K.
-----------------------------------------
> It doesn't make you right, though.
tommy and his pals don't understand the difference between
RIGHT and WRONG, Lucy. THAT DEFINES INSANITY. DON'T IT.
LIKE THIS:
"Warning: Sometimes The Corrections Will Seem
Quite Harsh And Cause You To Cringe. This Is
A Normal Reaction The First Few Times It Happens,
But You'll Get Over It." mike duforth, author:
"CourteHOWES Canine."
> > That's my point.
The Simply Amazing Puppy Wizard's POINT is:
A DOG Is A Dog;
As A KAT Is A KAT;
As A BIRDY Is A BIRDY;
As A CHILD IS A CHILD;
As A SP-HOWES Is a SP-HOWES;
As A Mass Murderer Is A Mass Murderer.
ALL Critters Only Respond In
PREDICTABLE INNATE NORMAL NATURAL
INSTINCTIVE REFLEXIVE Ways;
To Situations And Circumstances Of Their Environment
Which We Create For Them.
Damn The Descartean War of "Nature Vs Nurture."
We Teach By HOWER Words And Actions
And GET BACK What We TAUGHT.
"It is by muteness that a dog becomes
so utterly beyond value."
Like a confessor Priest?
"With him, words play no torturing tricks..., "
--John Galsworthy.
Don't bet your dog won't tell on you...
Their behaviors reflect
HOWER words, actions and training quirks.
Jerry HOWE, The Puppy Wizard. <{} ; ~ ) >
> > > There is a lot of pain in the life of every one of us, dog
> > > or human, and we all have to cope with it as best we can.
In The Problem Animal Behavior BUSINESS
FAILURE MEANS DEATH.
SAME SAME,
For The Problem Child Behavior BUSINESS.
The Smiply Amazing Puppy Wizard can pick HIS nose till it bleeds.
Wanna see???
"Complex activities are LEARNED MORE QUICKLY through
OBSERVATION (copying, if you will) than by trial and
error with reinforcemet (Luchins,)."
> > And that's just one of the things I teach dogs to
> > do, i.e., to cope with all the goings-on of life.
tommy's trainin would allHOWE The Simply Amazing Puppy Wizard
to pick HIS nose till it bleeds and continue this NORMAL behavior
and GET OVER IT rather than teahin HIM to use a tissue and nasal
lavage if necessary.
> Why? Do you turn your dogs loose to live in the wild?
Of curse not, Lucy. tommy's Retrievers WOULD DIE left to
their own devices as bein Retrievers THEY DO NOT CHASE
PRAY. Ask janet and racetrack silly.
BWEEEEAHAHAHAHAHAAA!!!
> Aren't they supposed to be taken care of by
> loving humans, who protect them from all harm?
They gotta learn to GET OVER IT and carry on with their NORMAL
behavior.
LIKE THIS:
"I have heard advice stating that you should pre-load
your dog for Bitter Apple for it to work as efficiently
as possible. What does this mean?
When you bring home the Bitter Apple for the first time,
spray one squirt directly into the dog's mouth and walk
away. The dog won't be too thrilled with this but just
ignore him and continue your normal behavior,"
--Mike Dufort
author of the zero selling book
"Courteous Canines"
"J1Boss" <j1b...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040324071828...@mb-m18.aol.com...
> He was next to me and I could see his neck
> muscles pulsing. He didn't even blink an eye.
> Janet Boss
>
"sionnach" <rhyfe...@msn.com> wrote in message
news:c3qi15$2biuoh$1...@ID-45033.news.uni-berlin.de...
> "J1Boss" <j1b...@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:20040323173916...@mb-m17.aol.com...
> > > I can't imagine needing anything higher
> > > than a 5 with it, even with an insensitive
> > > dog like a Lab.
An INSENSITIVE DOG???
"Loop the lead (it's basically a GIANT nylon or leather
choke collar) over his snarly little head, and give him a
stern correction" --Janet Boss
"Reliable Punishment Cycles, Different Thresholds To Pain
And Punishment, High Tolerance For Correction, Escalation
Of Correction To A Level Where The Dog Yelps When You Punish
Him, Thus Making The Experience One Which The Dog Will Want
To Avoid In The Future," grant teeboon, RAAF.
"Well, Jack Did Hit My Dog. Actually I'd Call It
A Sharp Tap Of The Crook To The Nose. I Know Jack
Wouldn't Have Done It If He Thought Solo Couldn't
Take It. I Still Crate Him Because Otherwise I Fear
He Might Eat My Cat," melanie.
captain arthur haggerty SEZ: "A CHIN CHUCK" Makes A
ResoundingSound Distraction: "When You Chuck The Dog
The Sound Will Travel Up The Mandible To The Ears And
Give A Popping Sound To The Dog."
"Many People Have Problems Getting The Pinch
Right, Either They Do Not Pinch Enough, Or They
Have A Very Stoic Dog. Some Dogs Will Collapse
Into A Heap. About The Ear Pinch: You Must Keep
The Pressure Up," sindy "don't let the dog SCREAM"
mooreon, author of HOWER FAQ's pages on k9 web.
lying frosty dahl, oakhill kennels wrote:
Get A 30"- 40" Stick.You can have a helper wield
the stick, or do it yourself. Tougher, less tractable
dogs may require you to progress to striking them
more sharply
Try pinching the ear between the metal casing and
the collar, even the buckle on the collar. Persist!
Eventually, the dog will give in
but will squeal, thrash around, and direct their
efforts to escaping the ear pinch
You can press the dog's ear with a shotshell
instead of your thumb even get a studded collar
and pinch the ear against that
Make the dog's need to stop the pinching so
urgent that resisting your will fades in importance.
CHUCK IT Under ITS Chin With That Ever Ready
Right Hand, As it catches on, try using the stick
and no ear pinch.
When the dog is digging out to beat the stick
and seems totally reliable without any ear pinch,
you are finished
If the dog drops it, chuck it solidly under the chin,
say "No! Hold!"
(stay on the ear until it does) (perhaps because
the ear is getting tender, or the dog has decided
it isn't worth it)" lying frosty dahl.
"Chin cuff absolutely does not mean slap,"
professora gingold.
terri willis, Psychoclown wrote:
"Nope. That "beating dogs with sticks" things is
something you twisted out of context, because you
are full of bizarro manure."
"Pudge Was So Soft That She Could And
Would Avoid A Simple Swat On The Rump
With A Riding Crop," lying frosty dahl,
discoverer of CANNIBALISM in Labradors.
"I Dropped The Leash, Threw My
Right Arm Over The Lab's Shoulder,
Grabbed Her Opposite Foot With My
Left Hand, Rolled Her On Her Side,
Leaned On Her, Smartly Growled Into
Her Throat And Said "GRRRR!" And
Neatly Nipped Her Ear," sinofabitch.
"Warning: Sometimes The Corrections Will Seem
Quite Harsh And Cause You To Cringe. This Is A
Normal Reaction The First Few Times It Happens,
But You'll Get Over It."mike duforth, author:
"Courteous Canine."
> > So that they can go anywhere, anytime, anyplace.
> > And enjoy all the things that dogs enjoy doing.
Like chasin squirrels?
What kinda dog DON'T like to chase squirrels?
Oh, The Simply Amazing Puppy Wizard knows the answer!
It's dogs who like to chase bunnys... LIKE THIS:
"It was kind of funny, in an absurd way. The rabbit
was completely still, eyes open and glazed, dried
blood in his ears and mouth, with his back legs
stiffening quickly.
It was her pet rabbit, not a wild bunny, so
that made it much harder for her.
And he was killed by bichons.
Her dogs had torn it apart. My one student who had
shown up (another weird thing about the night) and I
had to continuously check for heart and bowel sounds
for her, until she could accept that the rabbit was dead.
(The rigor mortis in his back legs she attributed to "pain").
Full moon.
Canine Action Dog Trainer
http://www.canineaction.com
"Then she mentioned the names of her dogs,
and I immediately remembered them."
THAT was YOUR "STUDENT", leah. Like that RECENT
"GRADUATE STUDENT" Rottie who'd been in your
SOCIALIZATIOn classes since IT was ten weeks old
who RECENTLY MURDERED a little innocent DEAD DOG
at the park.
"I will always remember the dogs," leah.
Yeah. You and ed williams of PET LOSS dot COIN.
From: dfrntdr...@aol.comMURK-OFF (Leah)
Date: 05 Nov 2002 00:55:40 GMT
Subject: Re: The Puppy Wizard
>"Mike E" m...@egbert.com wrote:
> My question was "Is there any legitimacy to the
> harshly-worded teachings of the Puppy Wizard?"
Any legitimate advice he gives is plagiarized from
other, more coherent sources.
Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain. :}
PetsMart Pet Trainer
See My Furry Family At:
Leah Effexor for chronic depression, in denial
about being mentally ill. Has taken
several other mentally ill medications
before settling on effexor for her chronic
mental problems. Recenly changed to
another ANTI PSYCHOTIC prescription.
"I don't think Jerry intentionally lies. I think he twists
things around in his own mind until he actually believes
what he's saying.
Jerry is the only poster here who gives dangerous
advice. Google for spike and squirt. And let's not
forget the times he's told posters whose dogs have
medical problems that his halfwits-end program could
cure them,"
PetsMart Pet Trainer
My Kids, My Students, My Life
BWEEEEEEEEEEEAAAAHAHAHHAHAAAA!!!
> That's very nice of you.
tommy an company are VERY NICE people. Heel, The Simply Amazing
Puppy Wizard can remember a time when not so nice people locked
folks like tommy an company in the closet so's not to be EMBARRASSED
by their behavior:
MOTHER AND CHILD REUNION "KUCKOO!! CUCKOO!!!"
MOTHER (LOIS E.) 22 YEARS on TRICYCLICS, DAUGHTER BIPOLAR...
YOU DO THE MATH
"What's really terrific, is now days you can
say proudly, 'I take anti-depressives'"
From: Gary & lois Edwards (g...@bmi.net)
Subject: Re: Where is Darlene?
Date: 1999/09/02
BEEN ON TRICYCLICS FOR ABOUT 22 YEARS
"I don't take lithium, but I've been on trycyclics
for about 22 years. Been there, done that, have
the t-shirt to prove it. What's really terrific,
is now days you can say proudly,
"I take anti-depressives". Back when I started
taking them it was seen as something shameful.
If you cut your leg off, and were lying there with
a bleeding stump, you'd never let the word
depressed, pass your lips, or the doc's would say,
"You're depressed, on medication? Well, can't have
any pain meds.....you could become addicted."
The good old days. I actually had a Great Aunt who's
father locked her in her room back in the twenties
because she was simple. A shame that medication
probably would have helped her live a normal life.
No Denna, I was just saying with Darlene's
personality, she has a way of making grandiose
plans when at the top of her manic cycle....as
does my daughter. I wasn't saying that anyone
with problems could be counted on to be
irresponsible."
Lois E.
---------------
> Now, if you just COULD force your imagination just a little bit
That'll be quite the trick, Lucy. Perhaps tommy should take some
prunes?
> and grasp the notion that this can be done by a gentler, non-physical
> method that doesn't cause the dog to scream when learning something,
> perhaps both you and your dogs could profit from that, don't you think?
The Simply Amazing Puppy Wizard is striveing towards a gentler
and kinder world, a la President George Bush Sr. <{) : ~ ) >
Damn The Descartean War of
"Nature Vs Nurture."
We Teach By HOWER Words
And Actions And GET BACK What We TAUGHT.
In The Problem Animal Behavior BUSINESS
FAILURE MEANS DEATH.
SAME SAME SAME SAME,
For The Problem Child Behavior BUSINESS.
"The day may come when the rest of the animal creation
may acquire those rights
which never could have been withholden from them
but by the hand of tyranny.
The question is not can they REASON,
nor can they TALK,
but can they SUFFER?" -
- Jeremy Bentham
All truth passes through three stages.
First, it is ridiculed.
Second, it is violently opposed.
Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.
-Arthur Schopenhauer
"Thank you for fighting the fine fight--
even tho it's a hopeless task,
in this system of things.
As long as man is ruling man,
there will be animals (and humans!)
abused and neglected. :-(
Your student," Juanita.
"If you've got them by the balls their
hearts and minds will follow,"
John Wayne.
> > > Sometimes the pain is the price we willingly pay for something
> > > that we want very much - like the retriever who wants to chase the
> > > prey, more than anything else (not to mention the fact that, in the
> > > state the chasing dog is, his body produces morphine-like compounds
> > > that act as pain-killers, which can't be said about the poor dog that
> > > got an electrical stimulation while lying peacefully in her cage).
Ooops! Can't have it BOTH ways UNLESS The Simply Amazing Puppy
Wizard is GIVIN IT to you both ways <{) : ~ ) >
> > One of the things we must all learn (humans and dogs) if we're going
> > to be able to cope with the normal goings-on in life, is to learn how
> > to differentiate between the small stuff and the BIG STUFF(!).
Oh? You mean kinda LIKE THIS?:
"You Lying Sack Of Dung.When Have I Ever Said
Anything About Using A Prong Collar, Or Any Collar
Correction At All, To Make Dogs Friendly To House
Cats? Don't bother. The answer is never," lying "I
LOVE KOEHLER" lynn.
lying "I LOVE KOEHLER" lynn writes about kats and dogs:
"This Article Is Something We've Put Together
For SF GSD Rescue
From: Lynn Kosmakos (lkosma...@home.com)
Subject: Re: I have a dog he has cats
Date: 1999/11/20
ginge...@my-deja.com wrote:
> How can I get him to quit chasing the cats.
Okay - this is going to be a bit loooong - Lynn K.
"Put a prong collar with a six-foot leash on the dog. Don't
forget to put the muzzle on the dog. I think a prong works
better than a choke with less chance of injury to the dog in
this situation.
Electronics can be used to create an aversion to cats, but
should be used under the direction of a trainer who knows how
to instruct the owner in their proper use. Electronics can
take the form of shock, sonic or citronella collars. At that
time the owner will train with electronics instead of food or
whatever other reward system was being used."
8) Put a prong collar with a six-foot leash on the dog.
Don't forget to put the muzzle on the dog. I think a prong
works better than a choke with less chance of injury to the
dog in this situation. Have the dog in a sit-stay next to
you with most of the slack out of the leash and let the cat
walk through the room and up to the dog if it wishes (this is
why you have the dog muzzled).
If the dog makes an aggressive move towards the
cat, it must be corrected strongly with both your
voice and the collar.
This is important - the correction must be physically
very strong - not a nag. (PS: not many dogs need
to be corrected at all)."
<except when it is>
<except when it is>
--------------------
Lynn K.
----------------
"I worked with one shelter where I bathed and groomed
every adoptable dog on intake. I frankly felt that the
effort/benefit equation was not balanced for some of the
older/ill poodle/terrier mixes we got in badly matted condition.
Should I have refused to groom them?
Or even more pertinent - I was one of the people who
had to make the euthanasia decisions at that shelter."
Lynn K.
Baghdad Bob <Baghdadbob> wrote in message
<news:04591a2c5d469ef78d35c89ed4ed58f7@TeraNews>...
Lynn, looks like he got you there if these
quotes are true.
In the posts below you take responsibility for
making those calls.
In your post above, you state you do not
make those calls.
Which one is it?
> > A lot of dogs are ill-prepared to do that. So are a lot of humans.
NO PROBLEMO! We'll JUST GET OVER IT.
LIKE THIS:
>> I do know that hitting, hurting your dog
>> will often make the dog either aggressive
>> or a fear biter, neither of which we want
>> to do.
>
> And neither does anyone else, Jerome.
> No matter what Jerry Howe states.
>
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
> BUT, giving you the benefit of the
> doubt, please provide a quote (an
> original quote, not from one of Jerry
> Howe's heavily edited diatribes) that
> shows a regular poster promoting or
> using an abusive form of training.
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
> So, can you cite some examples of
> people recommending "shock collars,
> hanging, and punishment"?
> --
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
BWWWWEAAAHAHAHAHAAAA!!!
> > I make sure that my dogs are prepared. And
> > I make sure that my children are, too.
Hey Lucy? Ask tommy to SHOWE you his dogs? Certainly
a world renHOWENED Retriever puppy mill like tommy's
sorenson's Retrievers got a website with all the pictures
of his field winnin CHUMPion dogs?
> That's nonsense. Do you intend to send your dogs or your kids to fight
> behind enemy lines? Are they likely to fall into the hands of the bad
> guys who will subject them to torture? Should they be prepared for THAT
> kind of stuff? Normal life, for both humans and dogs, requires an
> ability to make good judgment, not a martyr's ability to cope with
> pain.
tommy sez we gotta GET OVER IT.
> > > But there is another aspect here, one that a decent human being would
> > > have no difficulty to notice right away: you are entitled to inflict
> > > upon yourself all the pain you want; you know how much you can and want
> > > to bear and whether it's worthwhile or not.
If you look up DENTAL PAIN you'll see HOWER dog lovers
are VERY SENSITIVE critters and cannot stand it AT ALL.
> > Here's yet another aspect to consider, and an aspect shared by
> > essentially all mentally stable individuals who own dogs.
"I'd call the SHOCK fence effective and safe.
Humane is one of those hot words that people
can debate all day so I won't touch that one.
There are people who would call a regular chain
link fence inhumane," liea altshuller.
"I know this is a hard subject to bring up without
starting the whole cruelty thread again so I'll
state my opinion once and won't defend it further:
any method can be cruel for some dogs.
Even the slightest punishment was wrong for Cubbe at
the beginning, but we've come a long way since then.
She trusts us now as I mentioned in a recent post.
Point is, she's been rewarded for coming, but she's
never been punished, even in the mildest way, for
not coming.
Is it time for that?
What might I look for to tell?"
"Julia Altshuler" <jaltshu...@comcast.net>
wrote in message news:McYnb.45145$ao4.106231@attbi_s51...
After talking with the vet yesterday and watching
Cubbe all day today, I'm convinced that the shaking
is behavioral, not physical. Naturally I'll continue
keeping an eye on her, but when I add everything
up, I don't see symptoms of anything neurological--
and the vet agrees.
--Lia
> > If I, as a representative of the homo sapiens species, and designated
> > as the guardian of the canis lupus familiaris species, decide that a
> > dog is going to get his nails clipped, because of safety or health
> > concerns, or his teeth cleaned, because of health concerns, or a
> > series of shots, because of health concerns, or an operation, because
> > of health concerns, etc. -- it's going to happen. Period. Even if
> > there is some pain involved.
Kinda like Premack's Principle?
From: BNTDO...@aol.com
To: jho...@bellsouth.net
Sent: Saturday, July 27, 2002 10:26 PM
Subject: Re: THANKS ALISON! - "Owners Should Always
Be Given The Cold, Hard Facts: They Should NEVER FEEL
GUILTY For Having An Aggressive Dog Euthanized."
Dear Jerry,
Major break through.
was diagnosed aggressive and he is going to stay
alive and by my side where he belongs.
Thank you so much.
Kay
========================
> None of these entail causing the creature pain ON PURPOSE. That's
> involved only in your lousy training, because YOU don't know anything
> better than that.
Geeez Lucy, sounds like you're not bein NICE!
> > No, the dog will not have a voice in this decision.
From: BNTDO...@aol.com
To: jho...@bellsouth.net
Sent: Monday, June 03, 2002 2:22 PM
Subject: Update
Hi Jerry,
Just an update to let you know how things are going.
Hunter is doing really great thanks to you and your
training manual.
I cancelled the appointment with the new vet to get
him re-evaluated for aggression. all weekend long I
had kids run by the fence to try and make him bark.
He didn't!
Tonight we are going to PetsMart to work on his
dog aggression but even that is going good for him.
I have less and less of a problem with him in my
vehicle. He doesn't try so hard to protect
it from the four wheeled monsters that go by.
I think soon I'll be able to leave his window open when
we go down the road and he won't try to jump out at
the cars that go by.
I have shared the manual with several dog owners
that I know and even a group of dog trainers.
Thank you again.
Kay
==========================
> > And I won't beat myself up over it, either.
Perhaps tommy DON'T LIKE PAIN and VIOLENCE?
> > Because I, as the species with the larger brain have decided that the
> > many long-lasting rewards from all that are *well* worth any temporary
> > discomfort or pain.
If tommy REALLY HAD a "larger brain" he'd be able to HOWEtwit the
cunning of the domestic selectively bred for generations of generations
of CHUMPion bred field CHUMPion puppy dogs withHOWET SHOCKIN and
JERKING
and CHOKING them.
Pehaps his Retriever dogs NEED to be SHOCKED JERKED and CHOKED
to HUNT on accHOWENT of "Retrievers DO NOT CHASE PRAY?"
> > Additionally, if I decide that it's more important for a dog to be
> > well-trained than it is to avoid any possibility of him ever
> > experiencing any discomfort or pain, he's going to be well-trained.
The Simply Amazing Puppy Wizard got CASE HISTORIES of EVERY behavior
being TRAINED NEARLY INSTANTLY simply by doin EVERY THING EXXXACTLY
PRECISELY OPPOSITE of HOWE tommy and company PREFER <{) ; ~ ) >
> That would be true if no other kind of training were available;
> but this is not the case, and you know it.
Seems tommy and Premack have both hit the wall, eh Lucy?
> > Period. Yes, even if it entails some temporary discomfort.
Not if you know HOWE to pupperly handle and train a dog, like HOWE you
do, Lucy.
> Don't you think that you owe your dogs the effort to always improve
> your training method, making it not only more effective, but also less
> traumatic to the dog? Don't you think that, just as you're ready to
> subject your dogs to a certain degree of pain, you owe them the same in
> what concerns YOUR training to be a trainer? And if someone comes and
> says, "There is a better way!", don't you think that you owe your dogs
> the effort to at least investigate that way, before you dismiss it in
> order to stick to the old method, the only one that you know?
"WON METHOD CANNOT TRAIN ALL DOGS" sez the miserable lyin
dog abusing punk thug coward mental cases who've entered
this armor piercing bullshit slinging contest to DEFEND
HURTING dogs to train them DESPITE that jerking choking
and shocking DOES NOT HURT and the screamin is only DRAMA.
Oh, bye the bye Lucy, that happy dance their dogs do when
they see their pronged spiked pinch choke and shock collars
comin HOWET for a lesson?
THAT'S SUBMISSIVE BEHAVIOR, not eagerness to work.
Subject: Faerie Sprinkles <{) ; ~ ) >
From: The Puppy Faerie
From: <BNTDO...@aol.com>
To: <jho...@bellsouth.net>
Sent: Sunday, May 12, 2002 7:22 PM
Subject: Re: Wits end Training
Hi Jerry,
Send the post to whom ever you wish to. Believe
me I will keep you updated. I got to tell you His
amazing progress almost makes me cry.
Kay Pierce
From: <BNTDO...@aol.com>
Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2002 6:50 PM
Subject: Head Hunter
Dear Jerry,
Just thought I would write to let you know how
well Hunter is doing. He had been trained using
the conventional methods for obedience. He had
gotten used to a choker and a pinch collar.
Alot of pain and a lot of jerking around. I had
also tried using positive reinforcement methods
that I had been trained in. He was so busy looking
for the treat that he didn't really want to work.
So I went back to using the pinch collar on him
and also a gentle leader when we were in public.
Slowly by degrees his behavior got worse and
he did deserve his reputation as a vicious dog.
The vet had recommended that he be put down.
I was in a panic when I found your web site.
Thanks! He is now the happy dog that I first
started out with 5 years ago. I am a professional
trainer and it was distressing to me that I could
not help my own dog.
I had been told that some dogs don't respond to
any kind of training and that a vicious dog can
never be trusted again.
I disagree!
Hunter is a sight hound and now I can take him
with me and he doesn't chase cars as much
anymore which is one of his main problems.
We are working on the dog aggression thing.
And I am confident that will be successful too.
I also have your BIOSOUND machine and that
too is working good. I know of several rescue
groups that would benefit from it.
This is rather long I know but it comes from the
heart. My Head Hunter Green and I have together
along time and have been through so much together.
Thank you for helping me save his life.
Kay Pierce
=========================
From: <Caninesanctu...@aol.com>
To: <BNTDO...@aol.com>
Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 2:49 PM
Subject: Jerry the jerk howe
> Kay if you only knew what a jerk howe is it's either
> his way or your wrong no matter what training method
> you use. In a post re: adopting a shelter dog he
> stated "fu*k Buster" if you want I can refer you to the
> post.
> He's nothing but a blowhard and if he was closer I
> would pay him a visit. He used your post from July
> in his rebuttal
> Bob Garrett
From: BNTDO...@aol.com
To: Caninesanctu...@aol.com
Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 5:29 PM
Subject: Re: Jerry the jerk howe
I have to strongly disagree that Jerry is a jerk.
I am a dog trainer and I have been for almost 30 years.
I believe strongly in positive reinforcement.
My youngest was trained using treats and praise.
*(Treats and so called REWARDS ARE NOT "positive
reinforcement" in the commonly misconscrewed sense:
"Despite Skinner's clear denunciation of "negative
reinforcement" (1958) NEARLY EVER LEARNING THEORY
model involves the USE OF PUNISHMENT. Of curse,
Skinner has never to my knowledge, demonstrated
HOWE we escape the phenomenon that an expected
reward not received is experienced as a punishment
and can produce extensive and persistent aggression
(Azrin et al, 1966").
My oldest how ever was not trained that way I am ashamed
to say. The result a very dangerous dog. He has problems
with barrier and dominance aggression. A year ago he put
a hole in my leg that took weeks to heal.
When the vet and all of my friends advocated putting him
down I found Jerry's website. I was looking for a natural
way to calm my dog and train him all over again as well.
You say Jerry is a jerk well I have talked to him on the
phone and consulted him about his training methods.
I really grilled him before I even considered using his
methods.
He loves dogs. Using his methods my Head Hunter is
now a very sweet dog. I get kisses instead of growls.
When he growls or even looks like he is going to bark
I tell him what a good dog he is and right away he shuts
up, looks at me like I'm nuts. But doesn't try to eat anyone.
I am happy to say that the vet thinks I have him on major
drugs. I don't! I still use a muzzle on him when I have to
take him to iffy places. But hey, I know he is now a sugar.
And the most important thing he is happy again.
It's a free country and you are entitled to
your opinion. I have mine.
Sincerely
Kay
-----------------------------------
> > However, in this the dog *will* have a voice, will have to make
> > choices, etc. Because that's what life is all about -- making
> > choices.
NOT if tommy AIN'T GOT NO ALTERNATIVE to HURTIN INTIMIDATIN
and MURDERIN innocent defenseless dumb critters...
"Observers of subjects making a first trial of a multiple
choice bolt head maze made fewer errors than the practiced
subjects in the second run, while subjects who have been
shocked for error on a first trial made more errors than
either (Rosenbaum & Hewitt, 1966)."
> What choice does exactly the dog have, when the remote
> control of the e-collar he's wearing is in your hand?
"Students will modify their beliefs more when rewarded
for the way in which they carried out arguing for a
disagreeable position (role reward), than when rewarded
for the content of the argument (Wallace, 1966).":
> > Why do I think it is more important? For the same reason that I think
> > dogs should undergo even temporary discomfort while dealing with
> > various health considerations -- because it will dramatically increase
> > the chances of the dog being able to live a much longer, much more
> > rewarding life.
>
> By reading the posts here, I wouldn't say that your dogs do live a
> particularly long life. As about rewarding, do you think that there are
> enough rewards in life to justify a painful, abused childhood?
>
> > I have yet to find a well-trained dog at a shelter or rescue facility,
> > and I don't think that's just a coincidence. But many of them were
> > well-loved, or at least well thought of, yet all that love and affection
> > somehow helped to land them there anyway.
Pavlov Told Us So 100 Years Ago. Sam Corson, Pavlov's
Last Student Demonstrated At UofOH, That Rehabilitation
Of Hyperactive Dogs Can Easily And Readily Be Done Using
TLC. Tender Loving Care Is At The Root Of The Scientific
Management Of Doggys. <{) ; ~ ) >
WE CANNOT CONTINUE TO BLAME THE DOG OR ITS BREED:
ALL Critters Only Respond In
PREDICTABLE INNATE NORMAL NATURAL
INSTINCTIVE REFLEXIVE Ways;
To Situations And Circumstances Of Their Environment
Which We Create For Them.
You GET The Critter You TRAINED
> A real study, with the appropriate controls,
> would be interesting, indeed.
Not necessary Lucy. IT'S ALREADY BEEN DONE RIGHT HERE by
The Simply Amazing Puppy Wizard's 100% CONSISTENTLY NEARLY
INSTANTLY SUCCESSFUL FREE WWW Wits' End Dog Training Method
Manual Students. Like yourself, for EXXXAMPLE <{) ; ~ ) >
> Yet by analogy with humans, though not all the abused children become
> serial or mass murderers, it appears that the overwhelming majority of
> the killers WERE abused as children. Perhaps the cruelty experienced at
> the hands of their caretakers is exactly what taught them to be cruel
> to their fellow humans, in their turn.
AS STATED. Recent studies at UCLA and Harvard SEZ "aggression is
LEARNED".
> > And, of course, several million of those poor dogs are killed every
> > single year in this country, because many of them were loved to death,
> > so to speak.
That's what the koehler Nazis would LIKE you to believe so's they can
DEFEND jerking choking shocking and murdering innocent defenseless dumb
critters. We're DONE with that kinda IDIOCY. The FACT IS people are
taught "positive" methods using bribery and witholding of rewards
attention
and UNCONDITIONAL LOVE TRUST and RESPECT <{): ~ ( >
And then cowards like tommy racetrack silly and janet climb
on the bandwagon and blame NOT HURTIN dogs for the "shelters
rescues and foster care facilities" bein FULL of HOWETA CON-TROLL
dogs.
> Or perhaps because they were punished for their
> "mistakes", the way you and your friends here teach.
THAT'S the cause of ALL temperament and behavior problems, Lucy.
Particularly the "adolescent rebelliHOWES stage" they love to
talk abHOWET... speakin of which, janet's new FOSTER care puppy
is abHOWET to enter next month!
> > I greet many dogs at the precise moment they arrive in this world,
> > and they're also in my arms when they breathe their last breath.
Yeah. THAT'S very disturbing. tommy, lying frosty dahl and sindy
SADIST moore of HOWER FAQ's page at k9web.com shove their fingers
DHOWEN puppys throats to gently CHOKE them to break them of MHOWETHING
even pryor to leavin the litterbox.
> > I provide for them the very best I can. I provide them with the
> > very best nutrition available. I provided them with the very best
> > health care available. I provide them with a roof over their head,
> > generally the same roof that's over my own head. I provide them
> > with the very best pre-schooling imaginable.
BWEEEAAHAHAHAHAHAAA!!! tommy is a PUPPY MILLER.
> > I provide them with the very best education any dog can get.
FOR MONEY.
> > I provide them with a job. The same job that
> > every retriever was born to have.
CuriHOWES AIN'T IT Lucy, that tommy gotta JERK CHOKE
and SHOCK a NATURAL BORN RETRIEVER. But that's probably
on accHOWENT of Retrivers ain't got no PRAY drive.
> > And, of course, I provide them with all the love and
> > affection that any dog should ever have to endure.
Yeah.
> I have no doubt that you love dogs,
tommy MAKES MONEY off of breeding and training dogs, Lucy.
> otherwise I wouldn't be wasting my time talking with you.
That's ABSURD, Lucy. talkin to tommy and his ilk is a supreme
wast of time if you're thinkin of rehabilitating them. They're
commited liars dog abusers cowards and mental cases. The ONLY
benefit you can EXXXPECT is that OTHERS will read these INSANEd
discussions and learn the truth:
"It is NO WONDER that the marked changes in
deviant behavior of children can be achieved
through brief, simple educative routines with
their mothers which modify the mother's social
behaviors shaping the child (Whaler, 1966). Some
clinics have reported ELIMINATION ofthe need for
child THERAPY through changing the clinical emphasis
from clinical to parental HANDLING of the child
(Szrynski 1965).
A large number of cases improved sufficiently after
preliminary contact with parents that NO treatment
of children was required, and almost ALL cases
SHOWE a remarkably shortened period for therapy.
Quite severe cases of anorexia nervosa have been
treated in own to five months by simply REPLACING
the parents temporarily with EFFUSIVELY LOVING
SUBSTITUTES (Groen, 1966)."
THAT MEANS we can CURE ALL Temperament And Behavior
Problems NEARLY INSTANTLY simply by DOING EXXXACTLY,
PRECISELY, OPPOSITE of HOWE we've been TAUGHT TO
MISHANDLE and ABUSE HOWER dogs by the UNIVERSITY
TRAINED behaviorists and PROFESSIONAL PET CARE
SPECIALISTS who MAKE THEIR LIVING off of PERPETUATING
their SHEER IDIOCY and IGNOING the works of Drs. Sam
Corson, Dra. Mary Cover Jones, Breland & Breland, and
other notable psychologists IGNORED and OVERLOOKED by
the ABUSERS who TEACH US to lock HOWER dogs in boxes,
bribe, choke, intimidate, and IGNORE HOWER dog's,
children's and SP-HOWESES cries of FEAR and NEED and
WITHHOLD attention, affection, so called "rewards"
and UNCONDITIONAL LOVE TRUST and RESPECT.
> I just think that your idea that this love should be expressed
> as pain to the dog ("in the dog's best interest", of course) is
> mistaken.
That's tommy's Nazi philosophical viewpoint.
> And I think that your stubbornness to refuse
Naaah, that ain't STUBBORNESS Lucy, tommy and jaent are
fighting for their lives carees and reputations <{) ; ~ ) >
> exploring the possibility that a better way to train exists
> is harming you just as much as it harms your dogs.
Naaah. That's BUNK. These mental cases will do and say ANY THING
to defend their alleged RIGHT to HURT INTIMDIATE and MURDER innocent
defenseless dumb critters to compensate for their fragile defective
ego's, weak fearful minds and colossal inferiority complexes <{) : ~ )
>
> > In return for all that (yes, I make them affix their paw print to a document),
Despite that a NOSE print is the acceptable documentation.
> > and to become well-trained,
OR GET MURDRED.
> > they might have to experience a little discomfort from time to time.
Yeah, like children... NHOWE tommy's gonna blame Dr. Spock for
the high crime rate and incorrigible lying abusive children.
> > Not usually more than a tap on the shoulder, or very infrequently
> > a definite thump. Certainly much less discomfort than when getting
> > their nails clipped, teeth cleaned, vaccinated, etc. I also teach
> > them how easy it is to avoid even getting tapped on the shoulder,
> > much less thumped. So that they can learn how to make good choices.
IOW tommys dogs learn to AVOID PAIN rather than GET OVER IT.
PROBLEMO, Lucy!
> Don't fool yourself - they have NO choice. A contract we choose to sign
> we can also choose to NOT sign; what can a dog who'd rather say "No,
> thanks!" to your package deal do? Can he refuse to put his paw on your
> document? Can he walk out and fend for himself, rather than have to put
> up with the pain you choose to inflict on him as part of his training?
Think Stockholm Syndrome, Lucy.
> > The methods I choose to use to do that training (i.e., how I show
> > them how to make good choices) are all based on sound, scientific
> > principles (operant conditioning, classical conditioning, etc.), and
> > are *proven* to work extremely fast and extremely effectively and
> > reliably.
Yeah:
=====================
<"Terri"@cyberhighway> Wrote:>
Robert Crim writes:
Why do you act like fools? I really have no idea, and I
don't really care.
> And, to date: I've not seen ONE come forward and
> actually admit to buying and having success with his
> little black box.
I think I'm going to get one myself for Father's day and
take it down to the Animal Shelter for their use and
testing. You would never believe the results, so you'll
never know.
> Anyone by now that doesn't see a scam man coming by
> Jerry's posts deserves to get what is sure to be coming
> to him! LOL!
I don't see a "scam man", so I guess I and Longsuffering
Wife and Rollei will just have to get what we deserve,
eh? As Joey (Dogman) says, "poor Rollei.".......right.
>Terri
Yes it was, and that is sad.
Robert, Longsuffering Wife and Rollei (do I get to
listen to the box first?)
===========
Crim wrote THAT about *YOU,* tommy,
"you insipid piece of cow dung!"
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
> > And the faster the results, the better the results, the
> > faster the dog gets a job, and gets to go places and to
> > do things he would rather do than eat.
Despite that tommy and janet's methods DO NOT achieve the
fastest most longest lasting RESULTS and frequently GETS
DOGS DEAD like that little DEAD DOG janet MURDERED in
"interested in hearing."
> Beating children in order to make them learn was also considered a
> fast, proven, good old way to teach. This didn't make it right,
> however. Learning should be an enjoyable experience, for both kids and
> animals, not a traumatic one.
Tsk tsk.
> > Of course, implicit in this agreement is the promise
> > that I will never, ever abandon him, no matter what,
UNLESS HE MURDERS THE DOG for NOT LIKING being jerked
choked shocked *(Operant Conditioning) and locked in
a box till IT FORGETS its BAD BEAHVIORS *(Classical
Conditioning)
> > or confine him to a dog crate unless it's absolutely necessary,
tommy means when he runs HOWETA operant conditioning ideas
and got to resort to classical conditioning i.e. lockin the
dog in a box TILL IT FORGETS his BAD BEHAVIOR.
> > or use any more punishment than is absolutely necessary, among other things.
Yeah, but all that AIN'T NECESSARY and is CONtraWIZE:
"The IMBECILITY of some of the claims for operant
technique simply take the breath away. Lovas et al
(1966) report a standard contingent reward/punishment
procedure developing imitative speech in two severly
disturbed non verbal schizophrenic boys. After twenty-
six days the boys are reported to have been learning
new words with alacrity. HOWEver, when REWARDS
were moved to a delayed contingency the behavior and
learning immediately deteriorated."
> Does this include putting the dog down, when the training fails,
> despite all its great results with most of the dogs? Can the dog that
> is killed sue you for failing to fulfill your part of the contract?
tommys methods YIELD 5%-10% DEAD DOGS, 30% marginally acceptable,
and 65% capable of "competing" in the field, Lucy. You'll find
those statistics if you look arHOWEND enough.
> > As to how this agreement is working out, well, all anyone ever needs
> > to do to find that out is to just look at my dogs. Especially when
> > they're with me. Someone who they would rather be with than even
> > their own kind.
tommys dogs won't take their eyes off him for the same reason
FRAUDreck's dogs won't... they GET SHOCKED and CHOKED if they do.
> This speaks more of the enormous capacity for love of the DOGS, rather
> than about your successful and humane training. Don't kid yourself.
> Many abused children love their abusive parents, too.
We got THOSE SAME KIDS RIGHT HERE defending their PARENTS
through the abuse of their dogs, Lucy <{) : ~ ) >
> > So I always defer to my dogs to let me know how our
> > agreement is coming along.
Let's ask tommy and janet to DEMONSTRATE The Simply Amazing
Puppy Wizard's DUAL SHOCK COLLAR CHALLENGE...
> > I.e., I only give a shit what my dogs think.
Let's see tommy leave his front door open and leave his
dogs loose withHOWET their shock collars on. They'll RUN
HOWET in the street and get PAINCAKED JUST LIKE HOWE
janet's dog done in front of her HOWES.
> What do you think they think when they scream during
> your training sessions?
FRAUDreck plays MUSIC over the SCREAMING in his vidoes.
Last time he sent WON in he FORGOT to put the music
over the SCREAMIN and you could hear EVERY BURN.
But then he noticed his MISTAKE and took it DHOWEN
and sent in the WON with the ballet music over the
dancin dog screamin in pain.
> > So to reiterate what *my* point is again:
tommy's POINT is the SAME as Hitler's.
> > I don't give a shit what you think about anything.
NO PROBLEMO. The Simply Amazing Puppy Wizard has
IDENTIFIED EXXXPOSED and DISCREDITED tommy and company.
> > I DON'T GIVE A SHIT WHAT YOU THINK ABOUT ANYTHING!
Of curse not, tommy thinks this is SILLY to argue
abHOWET NOT HURTING INTIMIDATING and MURDERING DOGS
to train them.
> Well, that doesn't seem to be the case, judging by how you're
> screaming. Am I causing you some minor discomfort, by chance?
> No more than a tap on your shoulder - or perhaps a thump?
tommy doesn't think that HURTS, Lucy. Ask him to DEMONSTRAT
The Simply Amazing Puppy Wizard's DUAL SHOCK COLLAR CHALLENGE.
> Lucy
"The Methods, Principles, And Philosophy Of Behavior
Never Change,
Or They'd Not Be Scientific And Could Not Obtain
Consistent, Reliable, Fast, Effective Results
For All Handler's And All Dogs,
ALL OVER THE WHOLE WILD WORLD,
NEARLY INSTANTLY,
As Taught In Your FREE Copy Of The Puppy Wizard's
FREE WWW Wits' End Dog Training Method Manual,"
The Puppy Wizard. <{} ; ~ ) >
Here's professor of ANAL-ytic behaviorISM at UofWI,
marshall dermer pryor:
From: Marshall Dermer (der...@alpha1.csd.uwm.edu)
Subject: Re: Jerry's Dog Training Manual
Date: 2001-07-12 06:49:13 PST
And how do we know this aspect of his
advice is right?
Jerry is not God and his manual is not the Bible.
His advice could be subject to an empirical analysis.
(Also, it is best to killfile posts from the
few regulars here who are either ill-tempered,
ill-mannered, or just plain ill.),
--Marshall
Marshall Lev Dermer/ Department of Psychology/ University of
Wisconsin-Milwaukee/ Milwaukee, WI 53201/ der...@uwm.edu
http://www.uwm.edu/~dermer
"Life is just too serious to be taken entirely seriousyl!"
From: der...@alpha1.csd.uwm.edu (Marshall Dermer) -
Date: 1998/08/28
Subject: Re: Puppy growls and snaps
In article <6s6ea0$8c...@uwm.edu> der...@alpha1.csd.uwm.edu
(Marshall Dermer) writes: In article <35E60819.65178...@pilot.msu.edu>
> tami sutherland <suthe...@pilot.msu.edu> writes:
>> However, there have been incidences where she has
>> growled and snapped at us...for instance, when we
>> were trying to dry her off after bathtime.
>
> When your three-month old pooch growls or snaps, IMMEDIATELY
> pick her up ONLY by the skin at the back of her neck, for 5
> sec, and loudly say, "NO!" Alternatively, say "NO!" and hold
> her mouth shut for say 15 sec.
>
> If she so snaps that you can't do the above then you
> will have to find another way to administer a prompt
> correction, for example, throwing a can filled with
> pennies, or a tug on the collar. --Marshall
"Oops! I would start by only holing her mouth
shut for say 5 sec.
At this point, "No" does not have any behavioral function.
But, if you say "No,"pick up the puppy by its neck and
shake it a bit, and the frequency of the biting decreases
then you will have achieved too things.
First, the frequency of unwanted chewing has decreased;
and two, you have established "No" as a conditioned punisher.
How much neck pulling and shaking? Just the
minimum necessary to decrease the unwanted
biting.
**********IS THAT A CONSISTENT 5 SECONDS?************
When our dog was a puppy, "No" came before mild
forms of punishment (I would hold my dog's mouth
closed for a few seconds.) whereas "Bad Dog" came
before stronger punishement (the kind discussed above).
"No" is usually sufficient but sometimes I use "Bad Dog"
to stop a behavior. "Bad Dog" ALWAYS works," marshall
dermer, research professor of ANAL-ytic behaviorISM at
UofWI. For MOORE animal abuse, please visit dr p.
BWAHAHAHHAHAAAA!!!!!
That's INSANE. Ain't it.
Here's professor dermer AFTER gettin JERRYIZED:
"We Are Lucky To Have You, And More People Should
Come To Their Senses And Support Your Valuable Work.
God Bless The Puppy Wizard," Professor Marshall Dermer,
Dept Of ANAL-ytic Behavior, UofWI.
From: "Marshall Dermer" <der...@csd.uwm.edu>
To: "The Puppy Wizard"
<ThePuppyWiz...@earthlink.net>
Sent: Friday, July 23, 2004 2:53 PM
Subject: God Bless The Puppy Wizard
Dear Mr. Puppy Wizard,
I have, of late, come to recognize your genius
and now must applaud your attempts to save
animals from painful training procedures.
You are indeed a hero, a man of exceptional talent,
who tirelessly devotes his days to crafting posts to
alert the world to animal abuse.
We are lucky to have you, and more people should
come to their senses and support your valuable
work.
Have you thought of establishing a nonprofit
charity to fund your important work?
Have you thought about holding a press conference
so others can learn of your highly worthwhile
and significant work?
In closing, my only suggestion is that you
try to keep your messages short for most
readers may refuse to read a long message
even if it is from the wise, heroic Puppy Wizard.
I wish you well in your endeavors.
--Marshall Dermer
Blessed are all who take refuge in HIM.
Jerry 21 And unto this people thou shalt say,
Thus saith the LORD Of DOG;
Behold, I set before you
The Way Of Life,
And
The Way Of Death.
And Disciple Paulie said unto them, Thus shall ye
say to your master, Thus saith The LORD Of DOG,
Be not afraid of the words which thou hast heard,
with which the servants of koehler and university
trained behaviorists and veterinary malpracticioners
have blasphemed me.
Disciple Paulie Sez:
"No One Understands How Wits End Training Really Works,
They Assume It's All Nicey Nicey And don't Realise It's
A Very Disciplined Method That Deals With Any Situation
And The Foundation Is Built On Trust And Understanding.
I've never forced my dogs to do anything, I tell them they
are good dogs and they seem to follow me, once I told them
they were bad dogs and they ran away from me, now I only
ever tell them they are good dogs and they always are,
always.
Trust your dog, ask it to do your request and say "good dog"
sincerely at the end of the request and I bet you'll find your
dog thinking then responding everytime.
A bit of respect works wonders, the same rule applies
to every aspect of the relationship with your dog.
Obedience and affection are not related, if they were
everyone would have obedient dogs.
I have found giving dogs "payment" in advance i.e. "Sam
sit goodboy" makes the dogs want to respond, after all, all
dogs want to be "good dogs" and if you tell them they are
good then they feel an obligation to obey your request.
Telling Sam he's a good dog AFTER he sit's apart from
been too late is also a gamble because if he doesn't
sit then there's no positive interaction.
Paul
"Think not that I am come to send peace on earth:
I came not to send peace,
but a sword.
"For I am come to set a man at variance against his father,
and the daughter against her mother,
the daughter in law against her mother in law
and the scholar against his professors.
"And a man's foes shall be they of his own HOWEshold."
The Puppy Prophet <{); ~ ) >
All truth passes through three stages.
First, it is ridiculed.
Second, it is violently opposed.
Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.
-Arthur Schopenhauer
"Thank you for fighting the fine fight--
even tho it's a hopeless task,
in this system of things.
As long as man is ruling man,
there will be animals (and humans!)
abused and neglected. :-(
Your student," Juanita.
"If you've got them by the balls their hearts
and minds will follow,"
John Wayne.
Yours,
Jerry Howe,
Director of Research,
Animal Behavior Forensic
Sciences Research Laboratory,
BIOSOUND Scientific,
Director of Training,
Wits' End Dog Training
1611 24th St
Orlando, FL 32805
Phone: 1-407-425-5092
The Amazing Puppy Wizard <{) ; ~ ) >
ANY QUESTIONS, DUMMIES?
,-._,-,
V)"(V
(_o_) Have a great day!
/ V)
(l l l) Your Puppy Wizard. <{YPW) ; ~ } >
oo-oo
<x_x>
Masters Feet" <AtHisMas...@MuchoMail.Com> wrote:
>HOWEDY Lucy,
>
>Nice to see you wearin cammo's and combat boots again!
>Better not worry abHOWET puttin on your flack vest, it'll
>just wear you DHOWEN seein as the only projectiles we're
>gettin sprayed with today are armor plate piercing bullshit.
>
YOU JERRY, ARE A DOG ABUSER AND A FRAUD. YOU ABUSE PEOPLE, YOU ARE A
A Poor Shepherd Boy And His Dog At His Masters Feet
Jeff Dege wrote:
> On Sat, 18 Feb 2006 01:07:20 -0800, lucyaafar wrote:
>
> > Handsome Jack Morrison wrote:
> >>
> >> > There is a lot of pain in the life of every >one of us,
The Simply Amazing Puppy Wizard cares abHOWET PAIN.
> >> > dog or human, and we all have to cope with it as best we can.
There's LOTS of ways we can EXXXTINGUISH PAIN, jeff. A good place
to start here abHOWETS is NOT TALKIN BUSINESS with The Simply Amazing
Puppy Wizard and HIS 100% CONSISTENTLY NEARLY INSTANTLY SUCCESSFUL
FREE WWW Wits' End Dog Training Method Manual Students <{): ~ ) >
> >> And that's just one of the things I teach dogs to
> >> do, i.e., to cope with all the goings-on of life.
Like jerking choking and shocking <{) : ~ ( >
Those are a few of the EZily PREVENTABLE PAINS we DON'T NEED
in HOWER dog's lives UNLESS you're a INCOMPETENT DOG ABUSING
blowhard who doesn't have the INTELLECT to HOWEtwit the cunning
of the domestic puppy dog <{): ~ ) >
Does THAT HURT your SENSITIVE FEELINS, jeff? NO PROBLEMO. The
Simply Amazing Puppy Wizard will simply INCREASE the level of
STIMULATION so's YOU AIN'T GONNA FEEL the lesser amHOWENTS of
PAIN The Simply Amazing Puppy Wizard INFLICTS on you WHEN HE
QUOTES YOUR OWN WORDS, jeff <{) : ~ ) >
There, you should be FEELIN BETTER already just by bein
DISTRACTED thinkin of the greater pain. If not, you WILL
BE, soon as you're pupperly CONDITIONED to NOT RESPOND to
insignificant amHOWENTS of PAIN and EMBARRASSMENT as The
Simply Amazing Puppy Wizard QUOTES YOU from your own POSTED
CASE HISTORY of INEFFECTIVELY HURTING dogs and makin EXXXCUSES
for your DOG NOT RESPONDING to the PAIN YOU INFLICT ON HIM, jeff.
> > Why?
Yuo mean HOWE COME. After all, THESE ARE The Simply Amazing Puppy
Wizard's 100% CONSISTENTLY NEARLY INSTANTLY SUCCESSFUL FREE WWW
Wits' End Dog Training Method Forums. AIN'T THEY, jeff. OtherWiZE
you'd TALK BUSINESS with HIM instead of tryin to BULLSHIT HIS 100%
CONSISTENTLY NEARLY INSTANTLY SUCCESSFUL FREE WWW Wits' End Dog
Training Method Manual Students <{) ; ~ ) >
> > Do you turn your dogs loose to live in the wild? Aren't they
> > supposed to be taken care of by loving humans, who protect them
> > from all harm?
tommy's dogs COULDN'T DO THAT on accHOWENT of "RETRIEVER DOGS DO NOT
CHASE PRAY."
> If your dog is a Lhasa, perhaps.
The Simply Amazing Puppy Wizard is quite familiar with Lhasas, jeff.
They're a kinda unique little dog, they'll kibbitz abHOWET anything.
> My JRT would be a holy terror,
You mean he's HYPERACTIVE, jeff?
> if I tried to make him live that sort of life.
You mean a life witHOWET PAIN, jeff?
> >> So that they can go anywhere, anytime, anyplace.
Like YOUR DOG when IT AIN'T WEARH his SHOCK COLLAR, jeff?
OR do you mean when he IS wearin his SHOCK COLLAR and a
innocent kitty kat passes bye and he goes HOWETA CON-TROLL
and does his PRAY DRIVE thing and murders the innocent
defenseless kitty kat, jeff?
> >> And enjoy all the things that dogs enjoy doing.
You mean like your 100 levels of MEDICAL GRAdE STATIC LIKE STIMULATION?
> > That's very nice of you.
We got a lotta VERY NICE folks here on The Simply Amazng Puppy
Wizard's 100% CONSISTENTLY NEARLY INSTANTLY SUCCESSFUL FREE WWW
Wits' End Dog Training Method Forums <{) : ~ ) >
> > Now, if you just COULD force your imagination just a little bit
> > and grasp the notion that this can be done by a gentler, non-
> > physical method that doesn't cause the dog to scream when learning
> > something, perhaps both you and your dogs could profit from that,
> > don't you think?
>
> No, it can't be.
But it IS, jeff.
> Not with a lot of dogs.
Is that the same Jeff Dege who can't train his own dog
not to attack innocent defenseless dumb critters despite
his shock collar and perfect come command?
SEZ YOU, jeff? You can't even train your own dog not
to PRAY on innocent defenseless dumb critters DESPITE
your EXXXPERT use of your 100 levels of medical grade
static like stimulation SHOCK COLLAR, jeff:
On Thu, 09 Feb 2006 02:31:22 +0000, Rocky wrote:
> Jeff Dege <j...@jdege.visi.com> said in
> rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
>> So my dog is going to decide that sitting beside me is more
>> interesting than chasing the squirrel across the street
>> because he _trusts_ me?
> In a convoluted way, and in part, Lucy is right. As Mary wrote,
> dogs put up with our human idiosyncrasies because we've built up
> a bond of trust. And *not* chasing a squirrel is certainly a
> strange thing from a dog's POV.
> Lucy, though, thinks that every dog is a dog, and that my Aussie
> will react to a squirrel the same way a hound or a Huskie will.
> In my house, "trust" with a prey-motivated dog involves a leash.
Near is a Jack Russell. And I trust that when he's
in prey-drive, he'll not even hear me call him.
-----------
From: Jeff Dege <j...@jdege.visi.com>
Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2005 21:58:22 -0500
Subject: Re: Squirrell chasing / Prey drive !!!!
On Tue, 13 Sep 2005 19:06:57 -0400, buzzsaw wrote:
> A Loose Leash !?! Are you kidding me ... this
> dog is ready to go and the site of a squirell he
> is gone loose leash, tight leash, no leash.
> He can see them clear as far as 5 blocks,
> in fact when a leaf blows he is ready to bounce.
> He sees a empty water bottle, or a sprinkle head
> on the grass as approaching he is tensing up
> because it just may be rocky the squirell.
> I think the e collar is appropiate here?
> Although I never used one on him.
Won't make any difference.
I've been using an e-collar with my JRT, and it's
worked wonders for his recall. But the one time
he bolted after something small and furry, he paid
no attention to the collar until after he'd brought
it to bay.
Jeff Dege.
> Ian Dunbar
That's DOCTOR ian dunbar, jeff. The Simply Amazing Puppy
Wizard has DISCREDITED him along with most every other
veterinary behaviorist by CITING their OWN CASE HISTORY:
HERE'S lying "I LOVE KOEHLER" lynn's REPORT ON dunbar's
"grHOWEL class" "SEMINAR:"
> "I spent this evening at a small group session on
> dog-human aggression hosted by Open Paw. Ian
> Dunbar was the speaker
That's DOCTOR ian dunbar, dog behavior fraudS.
> and was very clear that he uses P.
You mean P as in PUNISHMENT or P as in PRAISE?
Or P as in POO POO?
We're gonna quit using CONfHOWENDING scrabble
terms and RELY on INTELLIGENCE and HONESTY,
things you've YET to learn abHOWET cause you'll
do and say ANY THING to defend your alleged right
to hurt and murder dogs as you PREFER.
> The distinction he made, and I think it's at the
> heart of the issue, is that he only uses what he
> calls "instructive punishment".
IOW MOORE DHOWEble talk. lying "I LOVE KOEHELR"
lynn REPORTED his "METHOD" DIDN'T WORK for her
and her PALS who were at that "grHOWEL class":
Lynn K.:
In a talk on dog-dog aggression on 5/27.
Given his propensity for repeating himself
verbatim, I'll bet he's also written it somewhere :-)
My biggest take-home from that evening actually
came from a brief conversation with Tricia999 &
some co-workers afterwards.
They confirmed my experience that "growl classes"
don't have a lasting impact on the reactivity of dog
aggressive dogs.
Our common experience was that the desensitization
only lasted for the session and didn't carry forward.
As an aside, you might want to get a copy of the
little training manual they are using for shelter
volunteers at www.openpaw.org
The stuff on teaching people how to get into the
kennel and get an excited dog out for a walk is
excellent. Lynn K.
So you see DOG LOVERS, YOUR METHODS DON'T WORK and
YOUR EXXXPERTS ARE FRAUDS LIARS DOG ABUSERS COWARDS
and ACTIVE LONG TERM INCURABLE MENTAL CASES and IT'S
IN BLACK AND WHITE and html and INDELLIBLY ARCHIVED
on Google.
ADIOS, SUCKERS.
> did some research, some years back.
dr. ian dunbar RELIES on offering and witholding BRIBES
and REWARDS and throwin the leash DHOWN an walkin away
from the dogs when they become aggressive.
> And found that using only positive methods,
Offering and witholding food bribes and stompin off in
a hissy fit AIN'T "purely positive" trainin, jeffie.
> trainers reached only 83-85% reliability on his baseline obedience test.
That's IRRELEVENT. The Simply Amazing Puppy Wizard has done to
dr. ian dunbar EXXXACTLY like HOWE HE'S fixin to do to you, as
HE done to the rest of these incompetent simpletons, jeff: HE'S
gonna DISCREDIT EVERY THING YOU SEZ based on your own CASE HISTORY
DATA, jeff <{) ; ~ ) >
> Trainers who used primarily positive methods with
WON CANNOT "mix methods," jeff. That'd be SCIENTIFICALLY
INCONSISTENT accordin to doctor sidman's aversion therapy.
> occasional use of well-timed corrections reached 05-97% reliability.
Occasional use of pain fear force intimidation bribery withhodling
suppHOWEsed REWARD and unconditional love trust and respect teaches
dogs children kats ferrets horses an SP-HOWESES that OCCASSIONALY
daddy is a BRUTE and a MISERABLE COWARD, jeffie. Ask your Mrs. HOWE
much jerkin an chokin and turning your back on her she'll ACCEPT in
order to WANT to DO ANY THING YOU ASK???
BWEEEEAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAA!!!
> Some dogs simply can't be trained with purely positive methods.
CITES PLEASE, jeffie? The Simply Amazing Puppy Wizard HAS PROVEN
otherWiZE with CASE HISTORY DATA of EVERY temperament and behavior
problem bein CURED NEARLY INSTANTLY simply by DOIN EVERY THING
EXXXACTLY PRECISELY OPPOSITE of HOWE you and your punk thug coward
miserable lying dog abusing FRUADS do it, jeffie <{): ~ ) >
There, that'll take the PAIN away from The Simply Amazing Puppy
Wizard QUOTING you own MISERABLE FAILURE trainin YOUR OWN DOG
using your 100 levels of static like STIMULTION, don't it, jeff???
BWEEEEAAHAHAHHAHAAA!!!
> Actually,some dogs can't be trained,
CITES PLEASE? Oh, you mean SOME DOGS that are "trained" using
"a MIX" of non abusive methods and PUNISHMENT and WITHOLDING
of UNCONDITIONAL LOVE TRUST and RESPECT, jeffie <{) : ~ ) >
Like doctor ian dummerthandogdirtbar.
DOGS DO NOT FAIL TRAINING jeff, TRAINERS FAIL to TRAIN their dogs
Pavlov Told Us So 100 Years Ago. Sam Corson, Pavlov's
Last Student Demonstrated At UofOH, That Rehabilitation
Of Hyperactive Dogs Can Easily And Readily Be Done Using
TLC. Tender Loving Care Is At The Root Of The Scientific
Management Of Doggys. <{) ; ~ ) >
WE CANNOT CONTINUE TO BLAME THE DOG OR ITS BREED:
ALL Critters Only Respond In
PREDICTABLE INNATE NORMAL NATURAL
INSTINCTIVE REFLEXIVE Ways;
To Situations And Circumstances Of Their Environment
Which We Create For Them.
You GET The Critter You TRAINED
> period,
Sez you, jeffie? You can't even SUCCESSFULLY train your
own dog on accHOWENT of her PRAY DRIVE, REMEMBER jeffie?
LeeCharlesKelly wrote the book on "DRIVES", jeffie. THAT'S
what HE RELIES ON to TRAIN ANY DOG NEARLY INSTANTLY, jeff.
PRAY DRIVE IS A HIGHLY EFFECTIVE TOOL when USED PUPPERLY, jeffie:
"Postitive emotions arising in connection
with the perfection of a skill, irrespective
of its pragmatic significance at a given
moment, serve as the reinforcement," Pavlov.
IOW, emotions, not outside rewards, are what reinforces any behavior.
"All animals learn best through play." -- Konrad Lorenz
"...all the highest nervous activity, as it manifests
itself in the conditional reflex, consists of a continual
change of these three fundamental processes -- excitation,
inhibition and disinhibition." Ivan P. Pavlov.
"Complex activities are LEARNED MORE QUICKLY
through OBSERVATION (copying, if you will) than
by trial and error with reinforcemet (Luchins,)."
ALL temperament and behavior problems are CAUSED BY
MISHANDLING and therefore CAN BE CURED NEARLY
INSTANTLY by simply studying and applying the METHODS
PRINCIPLES and PHILOSOPHY of behavior AS TAUGHT in
your own FREE COPY of The Amazing Puppy Wizard's 100%
CONSISTENTLY NEARLY INSTANTLY SUCCESSFUL FREE
WWW Wits' End Dog Training Method Manual.
"It is NO WONDER that the marked changes in
deviant behavior of children can be achieved
through brief, simple educative routines with
their mothers which modify the mother's social
behaviors shaping the child (Whaler, 1966).
Some clinics have reported ELIMINATION of the need for
child THERAPY through changing the clinical emphasis from
clinical to parental HANDLING of the child (Szrynski 1965).
A large number of cases improved sufficiently after
preliminary contact with parents that NO treatment
of children was required, and almost ALL cases SHOWE
a remarkably shortened period for therapy.
Quite severe cases of anorexia nervosa have been
treated in one to five months by simply REPLACING
the parents temporarily with EFFUSIVELY LOVING
SUBSTITUTES (Groen, 1966)."
"REINFORCEMENT NEVER ENDS." THAT'S HOWE COME The Simply
Amazing Puppy Wizard DOESN'T USE "reinforcement" and
"avoidance" or PUNISHMENT training methods, jeffie:
"The Methods, Principles, And Philosophy Of Behavior
Never Change,
Or They'd Not Be Scientific And Would Not Obtain
Consistent, Reliable, Fast, Effective Results
For All Handler's
And All Dogs,
NEARLY INSTANTLY,
As Taught In Your FREE Copy Of The Puppy Wizard's FREE
WWW Wits' End Dog Training Method Manual,"
The Puppy Wizard. <{} ; ~ ) >
"No Loving, No Learning."
From: "The Puppy Wizard" <ThePuppyWiz...@EarthLink.Net>
To: "George von Hilsheimer, Ph.D." <drv...@mindspring.com>
Sent: Friday, October 29, 2004 4:40 AM
Subject: Fw: Counter Cruising must stop
> From: "diannes" <dian...@bolt.sonic.net>
> Newsgroups: rec.pets.dogs.behavior
> Sent: Friday, October 29, 2004 12:18 PM
> Subject: Re: Counter Cruising must stop
> > LeeCharlesKelley <kelleymet...@aol.com> wrote:
> > > I wrote:
> > > > LeeCharlesKelley <kelleymet...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > On another note: I understand why someone
> > > > > proclaiming a method that works on all dogs,
> > > > > all the time, would send up "red flag" to you
> > > > > and others, but the fact remains, if a technique
> > > > > *doesn't* work 100% of the time, with all dogs,
> > > > > then there must be a flaw in the philosophy
> > > > > underlying that technique.
DAMN!
THAT'S ALMOST PRECISELY HOWE The Simply Amazing Puppy Wizard SEZ it!
> > > > Ditto for dog training. No failure nor flaw of method
> > > > is involved - that's just acceptance of reality.
>
> > > First of all, I didn't say that there was a flaw in the
> > > method, though anyone is welcome to make that leap.
> > > I said there was a flaw in the underlying philosophy
> > > and its model of learning.
>
> > Correction accepted. I think that perhaps we are using
> > terminology differently here. Here is my use of the terms:
<snip>
Dr. Von writes:
Jerry, I don't know where you find these folk who can't read.
> In order to use negative reinforcement, one must
> typically administer the aversive stimulus in order
> to be able to terminate it.
This is not negative reinforcement. Negative means no.
Positive reinforcement = behavior emitted by dog,
reward emitted immediately by trainer;
Negative reinforcement = behavior emitted by dog,
no response by trainer;
Aversive reinforcement = behavior emitted by dog,
aversive stimuli emitted immediately by trainer;
The term "reinforcement is used only tentatively with
"aversion" because aversive stimuli (aka punishment)
typically derange learning and are not followed by clean
learning curves equivalent to those which follow reward
or positive reinforcement;
Escape conditioning = dog has an aversive stimulus
applied without any dog related reason and when
behavior is emitted aversive stim is immediately
turned off.
There is some indication that Escape Conditioning
works in a manner closely approximating reward;
but, ear pinch? -- too aversive.
I remind you that you should beat them over the head
with "The Misbehavior of Organisms" by Breland and
Breland, published in B.F. Skinner's CUMULATIVE
RECORD. Ignored by most profs of psychology, but
the distillation of his work.
NO PUNISHMENT.
Must pay attention to who is the animal?
His evolution, his development, and his personal history -
cannot train without respect for who is the dog? So says
the BIG TIME operant conditioning guru - and you can also
refer back to MARY COVER JONES (mother of scientific
systematic psychology), no loving, no learning.
I suppose I could wire up a dog so that his brain was
badly interrupted and the loving method of puppy training
might not work well - but it would still work better than the
methods used by dominatrix and their ilk.
Lovingly applied ethological techniques like the one
espoused by the Wizard of ALL puppies work for all
dogs, for that matter for all mammals higher than cat.
Indeed, they will work for cats if trainer is warmly competent.
You can see this in Key West on any sunny day.
Housecats performing quite happily.
Fondly, Dr. Von
-------------------
> but there are more dogs who can be trained using mixed methods
Well jeffie, if what you MEAN is that there ARE more dogs
being "trained" using a UNSCIENTIFIC MIX of methods, you're
right, on accHOWENT of EVERY dog who wears a choke or is
bribed or is scolded punished or corrected are in your
"more dogs" category. The P-HOWENDS are FULL of 'em, jeffie.
THAT'S HOWE COME The Simply Amazing Puppy Wizard's 100%
CONSISTENTLY NEARLY INSTANTLY SUCCESSFUL FREE WWW Wits'
End Dog Taining Method Manual Students NEVER FAIL so long
as THEY FOLLOW THE INSTRUCTIONS PRECISELY and ASK The
Simply Amazing Puppy Wizard if they need any additional
FREE HEELP <{); ~ ) >
> than can be trained using purely positive methods.
Well that's simply UNTRUE and an INCORRECT useage of terminology,
jeffie. If you're gonna thrHOWE arHOWEND SCIENTIFIC TERMS then
PERHAPS you'd better LEARN what you're sayin PRYOR to SAYIN IT?:
Subject: A Gentle Reminder: The Bitch Slap?
From: Animal Behavior Forensic Sciences Research Laboratory
Date: Fri, Feb 10 2006 12:05 pm
HOWEDY People,
From: "Jerry Howe"
<theamazingpuppywiz...@mail.com>
To: <drv...@mindspring.com>
Sent: Friday, February 10, 2006 12:08 AM
Subject: The Bitch Slap?
HOWEDY Dr. VonAlzheimer,
The Simple Amazing Puppy Wizard would appreciate a
little heelp, a gentle reminder, a demonstration of "The
Bitch Slap", if you will?
Care to refresh HIS memory on HOWE it's done RIGHT?
From: "GEORGE VONHILSHEIMER, PHD, FRSH"
<drv...@mindspring.com>
To: "Jerry Howe" <theamazingpuppywiz...@mail.com>
Subject: Re: The Bitch Slap?
Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2006 09:10:06 -0500
Jerry, Jerry! JERRY! what a slow learner you are.
positive reinforcement, atta boy, reward
negative reinforcement, no response, nada, negative means NO
punishment, aversive action taken immediately after unwanted
behavior - stupid, moronic and confusing, don't use it.
All the reasons you said - except where did you get this insane
notion that brain studies of reward trained and aversion trained
dogs show no difference. WRONG!
Relief of aversion, MAY be similar to reward, but then you've
got to start with the aversion, nay? Simply put, you are pulling
the dog with the leash and he moves in your desired direction.
He relieves the choking or just pull of the collar.
Relief of aversion MAY be just as good as reward, if you are VERY
careful about what you are giving to get him to relieve. And all
your objections to punishment stand...
You have to put him in a cage, to train him by
relief of opening the door.
You have to pull him with a collar, to train him by relief of easing
the pressure. Notice that you must have the discipline not to snatch
the leash repeatedly, only slow continuous kindly pressure works for
relief of aversion to be pure.
You have to give him a continual shock,
to train him by turning the shock off.
Tricky.
You can bully a dog into some behaviors but the dog knows forever
after that you are a bully. So he can be a toady, or he can be
your enemy. I hope he tears out your throat, in a genuinely Christian
way, of course! heh heh heh
you mean rape doesn't work? Good metaphor here, Literature is full
of descriptions of love following rape or humiliation. Never met a
lady or a man who claimed that's how her or his own love began, have
you? Punishment is a form of rape, if you want the erratic
constipated love of a cowed animal then punish, by all means, you
rapist.
You know we had to send a dog to the city that never did learn not
to attack porcupines. He'd come home with his face full of quills
time after time. Those are a bitch to get rid of and the pain only
comes when you are pulling the quills out. Not a good place for a
friend to be.
You know I don't KNOW that it doesn't hurt when the porcupine slaps
them in - I never saw it happen. But I do know that it hurts like
hell when you screw them out. If untreated the dog usually dies
- horribly.
My pop finally had to murder our Chang because he'd get screw worms
every summer and after the first time Pop was slow and had to do him
with turpentine he wouldn't even let his beloved Pop come near him
with a bottle in his hand. Yikes. So we killed all the screw worm
flies. YAY!
Dr. Vonsky
------
And NHOWE jeffie, if you'd be KINDLY enough to drop TRHOWE
an BEND OVER The Simply Amazing Puppy Wizard is fixin to
give you a GOOD SCHTUPPIN:
From: Jeff Dege <j...@jdege.visi.com>
Date: Thu, 09 Feb 2006 16:27:41 -0600
Subject: Re: Info on choke chains
On Thu, 09 Feb 2006 11:35:25 -0800, lucyaafar wrote:
> Mary Healey wrote:
>
>> EVERY creature responds to pain, or to fear. These, I believe, are the
>> strongest motivators for a quick response, because responding quickly
>> to pain or fear is a matter of survival. But if you want a long-term
>> relationship, it seems to me that basing it on pain and/or fear is
>> about as helpful as raping the girl of your dreams in order to make her
>> fall in love with you.
> There are four quadrants in the operant conditioning model.
The Simply Amazing Puppy Wizard don't rely on OC. It's BUNK.
> Positive punishment and negative reinforcement use aversives.
The Amazing Puppy Wizard DON'T RELY on PUNISHMENT or AVERSIVES it
MAKES DOGS KATS KIDS an SP-HOWESES FEAR and HATE YOU and GETS DOGS
and KATS DEAD, jeff.
> Among e-collar trainers, positive punishment is used for the specific
> intention of causing fear - to condition a hopefully-permanent aversion
> in the dog to some behavior or environmental hazard that is a risk to
> his life.
That's NOT TRUE either, jeffie. SHOCK COLLARS DON'T HURT. REMEMBER?
> Conditioning a dog to not kill livestock, or
> to stay away from poisonous snakes, for example.
An EXXXCLELLENT point. The Simply Amazing Puppy Wizard's 100%
CONSISTENTLY NEARLY INSTANTLY SUCCESSFUL TRAIN their dogs not
to touch STUFF like poisonHOWES plants and critters using brief
variably alternating non physical distraction and prolonged praise
and praise in advance.
HOWE COME you EXXXPERTS gotta STIMULATE dogs not to do that?
> In my mind,
You're a mindless Nazi drone, jeff.
> teaching a dog to be afraid of something that will kill it
THAT'S ABSURD, jeff. Dogs and people should NEVER FEAR STUFF:
"We have NUTHIN to FEAR but FEAR ITSELF" some DEAD President.
> does it no meaningful harm.
That's MISTAKEN thinkin, jeffie. UNLESS you can HURT and
INTIMDIATE the dog EVERY TIME a la Dr. Sidman's AVERSION
TRAINING TECHNIQUE you may just "train" the dog to NOT
attack the snake ONLY WHEN YOU'RE ABLE TO HURT HIM and
THAT will make a field dog or whatever UNCONTROLLED meetin
DEADLY for the HIGHLY TRAINED dog, eh jeffie???
> (Though the use of positive punishment to reate these
> aversions is touchy - it's very easy to condition the
> dog to be afraid of something other than what you had
> intended it to be afraid of.
You mean the TRAINER, jeff? Or do you mean the poisonHOWeS varmint?:
"Won't make any difference.
I've been using an e-collar with my JRT, and it's
worked wonders for his recall. But the one time
he bolted after something small and furry, he paid
no attention to the collar until after he'd brought
it to bay," Jeff Dege.
AIN'T THAT THE SAME jeff dege YOU IS, jeffie???
> It's not something that should be attempted by amateurs.)
PERHAPS you should ask FRAUDreck of "no limitations" to TRAIN you?
> Most use of e-collars is negative reinforcement -
Sez YOU, jeffie. You can't even train your own dog
not to attack innocent defenseless dumb critters
no doGdameneD better than you UNDERSTANT SCIENTIFIC
TERMINOLOGY, jeffie. Dr. Von SEZ "NEGATIVE REINFORCEMENT
MEANS NO PUNISHMENT / NO REWARD. NUTHIN, jeffie.
THAT'S SCIENTIFIC TALK. PERHAPS you should stick to
back yard shade tree shit kickin dog trainer talk
like HOWE The Simply Amazing Puppy Wizard RELIES on
to achieve 100% CONSISTENTLY NEARLY INSTANT SUCCESS,
jeff?
> which starts as escape training but very
> quickly progresses to avoidance training.
Could be The HIGHLY IGNORANT Simply Amazing Puppy Wizard
don't know HIS scientific talk, but seems to HIM that
AVOIDANCE TRAININ and ESCAPE TRININ is the same same.
> Where the dog does as desired in order to avoid an unpleasant stimulus -
The Simply Amazing Puppy Wizard relies on PRAISE and BRIEF VARIABLY
ALTERNATING NON PHYSCIAL DISTRACTION and PROLONGED NON PHYSICAL
PRAISE to train ALL behaviors NEARLY INSTANTLY, jeffie.
> which after he's learned the behavior never actually comes.
Takes MOMENTS to poison proof a dog, jeffie.
> Now what dogs "think" about this, I have no idea.
It makes them HYPERACTIVE and AGGRESSIVE and CAUSES LIFE
THREATENING DEATHLY STRESS INDUCED AUTO-IMMUNE DIS-EASES
aka The Puppy Wizard's Syndrome, jeffie <{): ~ ) >
And THAT'S HOWE COME The Simply Amazing Puppy Wizard
works SO HARD at ABUSING YOU and your Nazi pals till
you're IDENTIFIED EXXXPOSED and DISCREDITED and will
NEVER post your idiocy here abHOWETS again, jeffie.
> But the research indicates that the physiological reaction
> of a dog that has been conditioned through negative reinforcement
Talk to Dr. Vonsky, jeffie. HE SEZ you don't UNDERSTAND your
scientific DHOWEBLE TALK, jeffie <{) : ~ ) >
> to successfully avoiding an aversive is indistinguishable
> from that of a dog who has received a reward.
That's ABSURD, jeffie.
> And personally, I reward my dog for proper behavior,
The Simply Amazing Puppy Wizard SEZ "rewards" teach GREED
and lowers the dogs REGARD for his trainer's AUTHORITY.
> even if I had been prepared to correct him for failure to perform.
You mean HURT the dog, jeff.
> I don't see it as teaching him through pain or fear.
Of curse not! You're a NAZI.
> I see it as teaching him what he needs to do in order to be rewarded.
INDEEDY. And THAT'S HOWE COME The Simply Amazing Puppy
Wizard WORKS SO HARD to IDENTIFY EXXXPOSE and DISCREDIT
you by QUOTING YOUR OWN POSTED CASE HISTORY, jeffie!
On Thu, 09 Feb 2006 20:26:13 +0000, Mary Healey wrote:
> lucyaa...@claque.net wrote :
>> Mary Healey wrote:
>>> Unless, of course, the key you're seeking is among those things
>>> you've pre-selected as "beyond the pale".
>>> What you're really looking for is the intersection of two subsets:
>>> what the human is willing/able to do, and what the dog responds to.
>> EVERY creature responds to pain, or to fear.
> Generally, they also respond to other things. OTOH, critter don't
> respond to something just because you think they should, or because you
> choose to use only a tiny fraction of those stimuli available to you.
>> These, I believe, are the strongest motivators for a quick response,
> But not terribly good for learning.
Actually, that's not at all true.
Yes, Skinner and his contemporaries were convinced that aversive
conditioning was ineffective and short-term. But Skinner's work
was 50+ years ago. Subsequent research has made it clear that
Skinner was simply wrong on this point.
------------
Dr. Vonsky sez that's ERRONEHOWES BULLSHIT, jeffie.
> And there are very few dogs who can reach high
> levels of reliability using only positive methods.
That's ABSURD and INSANE thinkin, jeffie. A dog "trained"
using PURE PLEASURE ENJOYS DOIN ANY THING HE'S ASKED and
will DO ANY THING to KEEP DOIN IT:
Subject: Re: "Come here" and he goes away
"Where I Used To Say "Come" And Then Say "Good Boy" When He
Obeyed, I Have Reversed It With A "Good Boy" First. It Really
Gets The Attention And Distracts Him From Whatever He May Have
Going Through His Brain When He Hears It
From: Jerry Howe
Date: Thurs, Jan 2 2003 8:53 pm
Email: "Jerry Howe" <jho...@bellsouth.net>
HOWEDY Master Of Deception blankman,
<T...@dog-play.com> wrote in message
news:EkQQ9.1610$io.7...@iad-read.news.verio.net...
>
> On Wed, 1 Jan 2003 20:10:06 -0900 BethF <b...@not-so-bad-dawgs-in-ak.com>
whittled these words:
> > Diane,
> > on the clicker lists they say that the...ugh...the names
> > aren't coming its a couple who have been clicker training
> > a long time, ...Bob and Marion Baily
They train circus chickens... for RENT.
> > apparently they did a study and found that continuous
> > reward was just as effective as variable.
MOORE. That's the heart of Your Puppy Wizard's methods.
> >I have been curious how their findings could
> > disagree so much with that of every behaviorist ever
Because Descartean "scientists" like our professor SCRUFF
SHAKE and SCREAM 'NO!' into its face for 5 seconds" dermer
is willing to hurt and kill dogs like the rest of you imbeciles
cause some MAGGOT with a "degree" tells you to...
And then calls Your Puppy Wizard's Methods CONTRAWISE.
> > and wonder what you think?
Sounds like your goddamned bailys are twenty five years
behind Your Puppy Wizard, probably A LOT moore than that...
> I think that you can always find studies that disagree
> with the mainstream.
INDEEDY Master Of Deception blankman. You'll find
that in EVERY ONE of Your Puppy Wizard's student's
TESTIMONIALS. You know, the ones you call LIARS
and PAID SHILLS for Jerry and FORGERIES because
THEY ALL SOUND LIKE JERRY WROTE THEM.
I did. I wrote the RESULTS they achieved from studying
their FREE copy of my FREE Wits' End Dog Training Method
manual...
Isn't that refreshing, Master Of Deception blankman?
> Occasionally they are even right.
You're a proven liar and dog abuser and you got no
right trying to MISLEAD people to HURT their dogs
as YOU DO. It's all in the archives blanman so GO
AHEAD and DENY IT... MAKE MY DAY.
> I would expect that there are other studies that
> disagree with the variable reward theory.
All physical rewards inhibit training ...
> Somehow, though, they haven't had the consistency
> of results that convinces me to abandon variable
> reward as superior in general application.
CITES PLEASE? You're a filthy liar.
> If consistent reward gets the results someone wants
> - I've got no problem with using what works.
You'd prefer to shock choke and beat your dogs...
> As for that specific study I'd want to know the
> context and initial selection criteria.
Of what benefit would THAT be? You don't possess
the intellect to outwit the cunning of the domestic
puppy dog even after me and the SCORES of my FREE
Wits' End Dog Training Method manual students REPORT
RIGHT HERE "MIRACULOUS INCREDIBLE AMAZING" RESULTS.
You and your maggot pals call those students LIARS.
> They did a lot of selection for animals that could be
> trained effectively and mechancially. If that study was
> based on what was working for them in the context of
> training their performing animals I'd say that selection
> influenced the results and might not generalize to random
> populations.
BWWWAHAHAHAHAHAAA!!! You just don't want to NOT HURT and
INTIMIDATE your dogs because that makes you feel POWERFUL
and IN CONTROL. You're a dangerously derranged beast...
Tell us HOWE you trained your dog to heel once again???
Hmm?
Sounds like you stole it outta my book and published it for
your own edification, Master Of Deception blankman... didn't
you. But you only did that once cause I was on you like stink
on poo poo that you can't train your dogs not to eat even when
you do hurt them for it.
> If you have a performing chicken in a cage there
> really isn't any point to concern about performing
> sans reward.
Is that so???
> Its quite different from living with a companion animal.
Right. You got to shock and choke and spray aversives
in their faces, don't you, Master Of Deception blankman.
> Diane Blackman
Got a new name for your new private list? You are NOT gonna
continue posting to The Puppy Wizard's Forum cause we don't
tolerate liars and dog abusers noMOORE here....
> Now to a purely positive trainer, it's better that the dogs
> who cannot be trained with only positive methods be euthanized
> as untrainable than to subject them to even the mildest correction.
>
> I disagree.
Well then jeffie, HOWE COME YOU CAN'T TRAIN YOUR OWN DOG
DESPITE YOUR PRONGED SPIKED PINCH CHOKE and SHOCK collars?
Subject: Train Your Dog Using Pure Pleasure. No Rewards,
No Corrections, No Consequences Except Exemplary
Behaviors And Fulfilling Relationships
From: Jerry Howe - view profile
Date: Wed, Oct 17 2001 3:47 pm
Email: "Jerry Howe" <jho...@bellsouth.net>
Hello People,
Given the state of the art of dog training today we have expert dog
trainers like captain haggarty who occasionally writes for the akc
gazette (see my post "accentuate the positive," a review of haggarty's
article decrying pure positive trainers in the gazzette) and our
"experts" here who know HOWE to inflict pain properly on their dogs
that have no rights, and killing dogs that don't withstand their
lessons.
Well folks, that's why you're reading this forum, because your
"experts"
recommended by your breeders, veterinarians, groomers, rescue and
shelter
orgainzations rely on are the same self appointed experts I've
discredited
here who tell us to jerk, choke, shock, bribe, crate, bite, chin cuff,
scruff
shake, twist and pinch ears and toes, beat, and hang dogs until
"resisting
your will fades in importance" according to our "expert" lying frosty
dahl.
Look at this hypocrisy here:
lying douuble talking "I LOVE KOEHLER" lynn sez: "Punishing them for
jumping up is nowhere near as effective as rewarding them for sitting
to greet."
I don't punish and I don't reward. That's why you bums have behavior
problems and my FREE Wits' End Dog Training Method manual student's do
not. Nor do they have the anticipated "adolescent rebellious stage"
because Wits' End trainers do not confront or force their dogs, so
there's nothing to rebell about. We don't punish or crate dogs to force
control of behaviors, we address them using appropriate techniques, the
ones our "experts?" who need to use pronged spiked pinch choke collars,
crates, punishment, pain, and death to control BAD BEHAVIORS tell you
won't work, because if you find out that they do, THEY'RE OUTTA
BUSINESS.
> "So rather than punish the jump, we give a correction"
sez our douuble talker.
Our experts will agree that gentle and joking "silly
dog......" is a correction just like a NICK with your
shock collar.
And I said "Sure beats getting whipped with dahl's 40"
hickory switch or a hangin."
And our expert lying "I LOVE KOEHLER" lynn said: "Every
bit as much of a correction as a nick with an electronic
collar."
> "to indicate that it isn't a wanted behavior,"
"Rather than punish the jump we give a correction?"
Does that make any sense on any level? You're mimicking professor lying
doc "scruff shake" dermer who punishes behaviors and not the dog.
You're
double talking us again because you don't know HOWE to train a dog
without hurting him. Take my reward money if you think you can.
$1000.00 dollar reward for dual shock collar
challenge to break dog aggression.
$100.00 dollar reward for dual shock collar challenge to cure shyness.
$100.00 for any non restrictive non force TRAINING method for breaking
coprophagia, hole digging, trash can raiding, kitty litter kat krunchie
munching...
Get my drift?
=======
> --
> Te audire non possum. Musa sapientum fixa est in aure.
Hey jeff? Bannanas don't go in your ear... you should
SCHTUPP yourself with it JUST LIKE HOWE The Simply
Amazing Puppy Wizard JUST SCHTUPPED YOU.
On Thu, 09 Feb 2006 02:31:22 +0000, Rocky wrote:
> Jeff Dege <j...@jdege.visi.com> said in
> rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
>> So my dog is going to decide that sitting beside me is more
>> interesting than chasing the squirrel across the street
>> because he _trusts_ me?
> In a convoluted way, and in part, Lucy is right. As Mary wrote,
> dogs put up with our human idiosyncrasies because we've built up
> a bond of trust. And *not* chasing a squirrel is certainly a
> strange thing from a dog's POV.
> Lucy, though, thinks that every dog is a dog, and that my Aussie
> will react to a squirrel the same way a hound or a Huskie will.
> In my house, "trust" with a prey-motivated dog involves a leash.
Near is a Jack Russell. And I trust that when he's
in prey-drive, he'll not even hear me call him.
-------
Hello Jeff,
Jeff Dege wrote:
> On Sun, 11 Sep 2005 02:21:10 +0000, Jen wrote:
> > Ok. You have the right to your opinion.
Dog training isn't a matter of OPINION, it's SCIENCE.
> > That's fine.
Not fine if you don't know the SCIENCE.
> > I don't mean any offence.
Not to worry, you don't have to apologize for
having a difference of OPINION about hurting
intimidating and murdering innocent defenseless
dumb critters.
> I have been interacting with a particular strident,
> obnoxious, and ineffective group of self-professed
> "purely positive" trainers.
Water seeks it's own level, don't it:
On Sun, 05 Feb 2006 17:57:26 +0000, Alison wrote:
> "Jeff Dege" <j...@jdege.visi.com> wrote in message
> news:pan.2006.02.05....@jdege.visi.com...
>> On Sun, 05 Feb 2006 06:58:28 -0800, dallygirl wrote:
>> >> And what, exactly, do you tell the owners of dogs who
>> >> have not responded to purely positive methods?>>>
> Why do you assume that a person who doesn't
> use chokes, shocks etc is PP?
No one in the world is a purely positive trainer.
To use only positive methods is a logical impossibility.
But most of the people I've met who reject all aversive training
devices are operating under the delusion that they can train a
dog using only positive methods.
-------------
THAT'S INSANE, jeff, AND, it's A LIE to DEFEND your animal abuses.
> So I tend to be a bit sensitive.
Naaah? A SENSITIVE NAZI, COWARD and LIAR??? BUNK!
> As for my opinion,
Your opinion is welcome here on these
open unmoderated news groups.
> I generally agree with you.
That's convienient. IN FACT, it's MANDATORY
or the SCIENTIFIC METHOD will FAIL. Let's all
do the Monkey Macarena together so we know
what's up.
> I just recognize that dogs are different,
Different from what? Children? Kats?
> and that what works well for most dogs doesn't
> work for all.
That's because you're not familiar with the SCIENTIFIC METHOD.
> > "Jeff Dege" <j...@jdege.visi.com> wrote in message
> > news:pan.2005.09.11....@jdege.visi.com...
> >> Like assuming that physical reprimands are bad,
Yeah, like PRESUMING ANY behavior is BAD.
Dogs and children DO NOT DO BAD behaviors
they RESPOND in PREDICTABLE NORMAL NATURAL
INNATE INSTINCTIVE REFLEXIVE ways to situations
and circumstances of their environment which
we create for them.
> >> while ignoring misbehavior is good.
You can't train ANY behavior by IGNORING IT.
> >> You simply can't assume that is the
> >> case for all dogs.
Not unless you was following the SCIENTIFIC METHOD, Jeff.
From: Jeff Dege
On Sat, 04 Feb 2006 10:23:29 +0000, Diana wrote:
> Remember that they were never designed for use on puppy's under
> 6 months old and they are specifically designed for training,
> not everyday use. They can cause damage to your dogs vertebrae
> and windpipe if misused. I would never put a choke chain around
> my dog's neck as I feel that the method is unnecessarily harsh.
If you're going to use leash corrections in training,
use a prong collar. They're safer.
> If you really feel you must use this method of training, I would
> strongly urge you to do so under the supervision of an experienced
> trainer in a class. If you are unsure of how to put one together,
> imo you are certainly not experienced enough to use one safely or
> effectively.
The two fundamental points regarding the use of aversives in
training that aren't often enough stressed are:
1. The dog must understand what he must do to end the aversive
stimulation, and
2. if you're training the dog, it won't take very many aversive
stimuli to change the dog's behavior.
If you're yanking on a dog's collar and he doesn't change his behavior
after a couple of tries, you're not training him, you're simply
tormenting
him. And it's time to step back and think about what you're doing
wrong.
-------
On Sat, 04 Feb 2006 10:39:32 -0500, Handsome Jack Morrison wrote:
> On Sat, 04 Feb 2006 07:09:00 -0600, Jeff Dege <j...@jdege.visi.com>
> wrote:
>>On Sat, 04 Feb 2006 10:23:29 +0000, Diana wrote:
>>> Remember that they were never designed for use on puppy's under 6 months
>> If you're going to use leash corrections in training,
>> use a prong collar. They're safer.
> That's simply not true, Jeff.
>
> It's *much* harder for the average person to administer a proper
> collar "pop" with a prong collar than with a choke collar.
Is it? I hadn't noticed that.
But even if true, that doesn't invalidate my point - prong
collars are far less likely to cause harm than choke collars.
> What this person should do, IMO, is find herself a good TRAINER
> (obedience training class, etc.), and use whatever tool the
> TRAINER recommends.
>
>> If you're yanking on a dog's collar
>
> <sigh>
>
> Actually, if you're yanking on the dog's collar,
> YOU'RE DOING IT WRONG!
Doesn't matter what you're doing. Yank, pop, windmill, whatever.
If it's working as a negative reinforcement, it will result in a change
in the dog's behavior fairly quickly. If it doesn't change the dog's
behavior, it's not a negative reinforcement.
It may be because you're doing it wrong, or the dog
is an unusual case, or whatever.
The purely positive crowd tells people that if a reward isn't working,
try something else. If the dog cares more about play or praise or
tummy
rubs than he does about treats, use play or praise or tummy rubs.
It's a point that is at least as applicable to the use of aversives.
If you are in a situation in which you believe that using an aversive
is
appropriate, and the dog isn't responding to the aversive you're using,
stop, step back, and think. Don't endlessly repeat what isn't working.
--
> On Tue, 07 Feb 2006 17:15:50 -0600, Jeff Dege
> <j...@jdege.visi.com> wrote:
>
>> Off leash, he's fine, in some places. We spend a good amount of time in
>> the yard, with him wearing only the electronic collar. And in the yard,
>> I've not needed to correct him since September.
>
> It's in those places where he isn't so fine that you need to work
> with him. Until each one eventually becomes just another place.
> Presumably that's somewhere with so-called distractions?
One consequence of finding an aversive that works - that is actually
acting as a negative reinforcement instead of merely as an irritant -
is that it very quickly changes the behavior of the dog.
Lindsay writes about a study in which a number of dogs who suffered
from obsessive licking were treated with a protocol using electronic
collars. They had an 80% success rate - with a mean of six stims over
only a few weeks.
Dogs learn contextually - each behavior is learned only in the context
that it is taught in. We need to reteach the behavior in many
different contexts before it is learned in any general sense.
But with the e-collar, Bear has learned to stay close, when told, or
to come, when called, that if we never went anywhere new he'd appear to
be perfectly trained.
I need to actively seek out new places, and new distractions, in order
to progress with his training.
-------
Lindsay is a DOG ABUSER and a IMBECILE, jeffie. The Simply
Amazing Puppy Wizard has PROVEN OCD'S are CAUSED BY his
"CURE" and his CURE CAUSES The Puppy Wizard's Syndrome <{):~ ) >
On Tue, 07 Feb 2006 12:52:03 -0500,
> Handsome Jack Morrison wrote:
> On Tue, 07 Feb 2006 11:32:29 -0600, Jeff Dege <j...@jdege.visi.com>
> wrote:
> []
>>> Unfortunately, this far too often means that little or no actual
>>> TRAINING will be going on, and that the owner, and the dog, will
>>> likely be dependent on that collar (and a leash) for years, if not
>>> forever.
>
>>> And that pisses me off.
>
>>> I don't think it makes the dog very happy, either.
>
>> I don't know.
>
>> My Bear used to be impossible walking on a flat collar.
>> And just as impossible walking with a choke chain.
>
> Jeff, with all due respect, that only suggests to me
> that he wasn't very well TRAINED.
At that point, he wasn't. And I didn't say that these collars
were useful in training him, I said they were useful in managing
him at a time when he was not yet trained.
> Is he yet?
He's getting there. We've not used either in our daily walks since
July.
>> He was manageable with the gentle leader, and he was
>> manageable with a prong. But he hated the gentle
>> leader, and was eager to go out when I picked up the prong.
>
> I think you're missing my point, Jeff.
I had read your point as suggesting that a prong collar would
make a dog unhappy. And that hasn't been my experience.
But rereading, I think you were suggesting that a dog that
could not be trusted off-leash would be unhappy. And that
I certainly agree with.
> How is *without* any collar?
He's never without a collar.
Though since July, it is often a remote training collar.
Off leash, he's fine, in some places. We spend a good amount of time
in the yard, with him wearing only the electronic collar. And in the
yard, I've not needed to correct him since September.
> With GOOD TRAINING, the dog should be highly manageable
> without the need of any collar. Or leash.
Yep. But people need to be able to manage their
dogs until the training is proven effective.
> And then the dog can be trusted OFF-LEASH, and get to run beaches,
> investigate the nooks and crannies of forests, run zoomies across
> meadows, play frisbee in parks, etc.
There are a couple of small, crowded, off-leash dog parks nearby that
are entirely fenced. But there are much larger, more interesting places
to explore that are unfenced or only partially fenced. (And even in
the fully-fenced parks, having the ability to call your dog away from
an incipient incident can be life-saving).
I've not needed to correct him for failing to respond to a
recall in those parks in months. I see no reason not to have
him wear his e-collar when we're there.
Certainly the extra freedom I've been able to give him because
I know I can call him away from trouble has significantly increased
his quality of life.
---------
From: Jeff Dege <j...@jdege.visi.com>
Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2005 21:58:22 -0500
Subject: Re: Squirrell chasing / Prey drive !!!!
On Tue, 13 Sep 2005 19:06:57 -0400, buzzsaw wrote:
> A Loose Leash !?! Are you kidding me ... this
> dog is ready to go and the site of a squirell he
> is gone loose leash, tight leash, no leash.
> He can see them clear as far as 5 blocks,
> in fact when a leaf blows he is ready to bounce.
> He sees a empty water bottle, or a sprinkle head
> on the grass as approaching he is tensing up
> because it just may be rocky the squirell.
> I think the e collar is appropiate here?
> Although I never used one on him.
"Won't make any difference.
I've been using an e-collar with my JRT, and it's
worked wonders for his recall. But the one time
he bolted after something small and furry, he paid
no attention to the collar until after he'd brought
it to bay," Jeff Dege.
On Thu, 09 Feb 2006 02:31:22 +0000, Rocky wrote:
> Jeff Dege <j...@jdege.visi.com> said in
> rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
>> So my dog is going to decide that sitting beside me is more
>> interesting than chasing the squirrel across the street
>> because he _trusts_ me?
> In a convoluted way, and in part, Lucy is right. As Mary wrote,
> dogs put up with our human idiosyncrasies because we've built up
> a bond of trust. And *not* chasing a squirrel is certainly a
> strange thing from a dog's POV.
> Lucy, though, thinks that every dog is a dog, and that my Aussie
> will react to a squirrel the same way a hound or a Huskie will.
> In my house, "trust" with a prey-motivated dog involves a leash.
Near is a Jack Russell. And I trust that when he's
in prey-drive, he'll not even hear me call him.
---------
You mean he sez "Te audire non possum. Musa sapientum
fixa est in aure" DESPITE your EXXXPERT use of your
SCIENTIFIC SHOCK COLLAR, jeffie?
BWEEEEEAAHAHAHAHAHAHAAA!!!
Better put a bandaid on them hemmorhoids The Amazing
Puppy Wizard ACCIDENTALLY left you with, jeffie.
BWEEEAAHAHAHAHAAA!!!
The Simply Amazing Puppy Wizard <{) : ~ ( >