Giving big dog (Muttley) a bath

[Paul E. Schoen]

I am still having problems with fleas on my dog Muttley. I am learning more
about flea control as I read posts here, and also from some web sites and
other sources. My vet sold me a tube of Frontline. She said it was much
better than the Hatz product I applied around the first of August, and
apparently there have been lawsuits against Hartz about their product.

She also suggested that I give Muttley a bath with flea soap or shampoo,
and then apply the Frontline about two days later. I have had Muttley since
mid February and have not yet given him a bath. So, I got some flea shampoo
and tried to get Muttley to get into the bathtub, but he would not. Even
when I got into the tub, he would not come in with me, so the best I could
do was splash some water on him and try to brush him a bit. Certainly not
satisfactory.

I do have an outside hose, but it is cold water with very high pressure.
Also, where it is located there is mostly dirt and no sidewalk or patio, so
I can just see him rolling in the mud if I try to bathe him there. I'm
thinking about getting a children's wading pool big enough for him to get
in, and maybe running a hose from inside the house with warm water. Is this
a good idea? Any other suggestions?

I'm really hoping to find someone who can adopt Muttley, so my cat can come
out from hiding and be my friend and companion once again. I am very fond
of Muttley, and he is slowly becoming more trustworthy and obedient, but it
will be difficult for me to complete my major renovation work with him
around. I originally intended only to keep him for a while, but my initial
efforts to find someone to adopt him did not pan out and I hoped to be able
to keep him. Now I need to control these fleas and give him a bath so he
will be more presentable.

Thanks,

Paul

[The_Insanely_Freakin_Simply...@hotmail.com]

HOWEDY paulie,

WELCOME BAAAAACK to The Sincerely Incredibly Freakin Insanely Simply
Amazing Grand Puppy, Child, Pussy, Birdy And Horsey Wizard's 100%
CONSISTENTLY NEARLY INSTANTLY SUCCESSFUL FREE WWW Wits'
End Dog, Child, Kat And Horse Training Method Manual Forums <{); ~ ) >

I'm Jerry Howe, The Sincerely Incredibly Freakin Insanely Simply
Amazing Grand Puppy, Child, Pussy, Birdy And Horsey Wizard <{) ; ~ ) >

Here's your own FREE COPY of The Sincerely Incredibly Freakin
Insanely Simply Amazing Grand Puppy, Child, Pussy, Birdy And
Horsey Wizard's

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FREE COPY
Of
The Sincerely Incredibly Freakin Insanely Simply Amazing
GRAND
Puppy, Child, Pussy, Birdy And Horsey Wizard's
100% CONSISTENTLY NEARLY INSTANTLY SUCCESSFUL
FREE WWW
Wits' End Dog, Child, Kat And Horsey Training Method Manual <{) ;
~ ) >

<{#}: ~ } >8< { ~ :{@}>
<{#}: ~ } > < { ~ :{@}>
<{#}: ~ } > < { ~ :{@}>
<{#}: ~ } > http://makeashorterlink.com/?K3AD21A3D < { ~ :{@}>
<{#}: ~ } > < { ~ :{@}>
<{#}: ~ } > < { ~ :{@}>
<{#}: ~ } >8< { ~ :{@}>

Paul E. Schoen wrote:
> I am still having problems with fleas on my dog Muttley.

BWEEEEEAAAAHAHAHAHHAAAAAAA!!!

The Sincerely Incredibly Freakin Insanely Simply Amazing Grand Puppy,
Child, Pussy, Birdy And Horsey Wizard TOLD YOU EVERYTHING you
need to know abHOWET HOWE to CON-TROLL fleas AND train your dog
to naturally want to DO ANYTHING you like, paulie <{} '; ~ ) >

> I am learning more about flea control as I read posts here,

That so, paulie? What have you learned other than to POISON
your dog and STILL have the same problem for the same reason?

> and also from some web sites and other sources.

Well then, you're doin O.K., eh paulie?

BWEEEEAAAHAHAHAHAAAAAAA!!!

> My vet sold me a tube of Frontline.

BWEEEEAAAAHAHAHAHHAAAAAAA!!!

The Sincerely Incredibly Freakin Insanely Simply Amazing Grand
Puppy, Child, Pussy, Birdy And Horsey Wizard got four dogs in
Central Florida and AIN'T SEEN a flea in YEARS and NEVER use
TOXINS to kill them like HOWE you do, paulie <{} : ~ ( >

> She said it was much better than the Hatz product I applied around
> the first of August, and apparently there have been lawsuits against
> Hartz about their product.

BWEEEEAAAHAHAHAHAAAAA!!!

> She also suggested that I give Muttley a bath with flea soap or shampoo,

If you use regular coconut oil soap the fleas will DRHOWEND.

> and then apply the Frontline about two days later.

Your veterinary malpracticioner SELLS you that shit, paulie?

> I have had Muttley since mid February and have not yet given him a bath.

"Cleanlieness is next to G-Dlieness," eh paulie?

> So, I got some flea shampoo and tried to get Muttley to get into the bathtub,
> but he would not. Even when I got into the tub, he would not come in with me,
> so the best I could do was splash some water on him and try to brush him a bit.

Well, you'll have to learn HOWE to pupperly handle your dog, eh paulie?

> Certainly not satisfactory.

No, it AIN'T. NUTHIN you been doin with your dog is SATISFACTORY.

IS IT, paulie you freakin pathetic dog abusin ignorameHOWES.

> I do have an outside hose, but it is cold water with very high pressure.
> Also, where it is located there is mostly dirt and no sidewalk or patio, so
> I can just see him rolling in the mud if I try to bathe him there. I'm
> thinking about getting a children's wading pool big enough for him to get
> in, and maybe running a hose from inside the house with warm water.

Yeah. GOOD LUCK, eh paulie <{} '; ~ ) >

> Is this a good idea?

It's SHEER IDIOCY, paulie. It'll take TEN MINUTES to TRAIN
your dog to go into the tub if you know HOWE to INSTALL ANY
COMMAND as a CONDITIONAL REFLEX, paulie. Kinda like
HOWE you and your punk thug coward mental cases react
when reain The Sincerely Incredibly Freakin Insanely Simply
Amazing Grand Puppy, Child, Pussy, Birdy And Horsey Wizard's
Posts, eh paulie <{} ; ~ ) >

> Any other suggestions?

BWEEEEEEAAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAA!!!

From: BNTDO...@aol.com
To: jho...@bellsouth.net
Sent: Saturday, July 27, 2002 10:26 PM
Subject: Re: THANKS ALISON! - "Owners Should Always

Be Given The Cold, Hard Facts: They Should NEVER FEEL
GUILTY For Having An Aggressive Dog Euthanized."

Dear Jerry,

It's Kay here. I don't know who these people are that
maligning you and your training manual but tell them
from me that it does work.

Hunter is just doing so well even the people who
advocated putting him down are impressed with him.

I even started using it with the neighbor's dog. I went over
there to help her cut his nails. She started yelling at him
for growling at me. I told her to tell him what a good boy he
is instead. Lo and behold he stopped growling and I could
do his nails. All 4 feet.

My dog Hunter was trained with the old jerk and pull method
and my other dog was trained with treats. Hunter has gotten
his enthusiasm back for his training and I couldn't be more
pleased.

He even tried to kiss a child the other day.

Major break through.

This is the dog that a few months ago tried to eat the kids
through the fence. I can now take him in the car with me
again without him trying to chase cars through the windshield.

So Jerry tell these people that the first rule of dog training
is Do No Harm.

The 2nd rule is whatever works without breaking the first rule.

Aggressive dogs don't need to be put down. Hunter was diagnosed
aggressive and he is going to stay alive and
by my side where he belongs.

Thank you so much.

Kay

You ain't had ENOUGH YET, paulie?

> I'm really hoping to find someone who can adopt Muttley, so my cat
> can come out from hiding and be my friend and companion once again.

BWEEEEEAAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAA!!!

You could train your dog an kat to be PALS in WON DAY, paulie, you
freakin miserable stinkin animal abusing punk thug cretin <{} : ~ ( >

> I am very fond of Muttley,

INDEED. Enough to POISON and GET RID of HIM.

> and he is slowly becoming more trustworthy and obedient,

INDEED?

From: Eric
To: jho...@bellsouth.net
Sent: Friday, November 29, 2002 7:54 AM
Subject: just checking in..

Jerry!

You helped me with my pal Dundee about
a year ago regarding submissive peeing.
Just wanted to let you know he's doing great-
he was "cured" in about 2 days using your techniques!

He has since become the "smartest dog in the world"!

Once I stopped thinking like a human and got
inside his head, I can teach him ANYTHING,
usually in a matter of minutes.

Makes me look like an expert dog-trainer.

I rescued two strays last week, cleaned 'em up,
wormed 'em, and am getting them their shots.
Time to get inside their heads and teach them to
teach themselves how to be good dogs!

Instead of feeling like "training" is a chore, I look
forward to working with these guys a couple times
a day...

Although I don't follow your instructions "to a T", I
learned from you to "think like a dog" and
stimulate their brain rather than beating ass or
pinching, or any of that nonsense.

I know damn well I would NOT be loyal to
someone who beat MY ass lol!

Well, just wanted to thank you for rattling the
bushes out there and teaching folks the RIGHT
way to "train" dogs.

A horseman friend of mine uses very similar
techniques in training his horses- he calls it
"natural horsemanship".

He is hated by nearly all the local "trainers" yet
somehow he repeatedly wins at every show he
attends. He rarely shows any more, but goes now
and then to rub their noses in it (pun intended)...

Too cool....

Have a great holiday season and keep up the
good work!

Eric , Dundee, Sammy, and Maynard

> but it will be difficult for me to complete my major renovation work with him around.

Yeah. Your newfHOWEND lyin dog abusin punk thug coward mental
case pal bentcajungirl aka perry's DEAD DOG Maggie ate Gorilly Glue
when she was renovatin her HOWES and Maggie SHIT THE BED pukin
her bloody guts HOWET on accHOWENT of she TRAINED her not to
take STUFF <{} : ~ ( >

> I originally intended only to keep him for a while, but my initial efforts to
> find someone to adopt him did not pan out and I hoped to be able to keep
> him.

Yeah. But you're a clueless dog abuin punk.

> Now I need to control these fleas and give him a bath so he
> will be more presentable.

You mean so you can GET RID OF IT an your kat can come HOWET.

> Thanks,

BWEEEEAAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAA!!!

> Paul

HOWEDY paulie,

"Paul E. Schoen" <pst...@smart.net> wrote in message
news:44d534b4$0$2926$ecde...@news.coretel.net...
> [snip 148 kB of a post too long to read]

Yeah. That was the INFORMATION you wanted wrt flea
CON-TROLL. There was a LOT of non toxic / all natural
SAFE alternatives like beneficial nematodes and insect
growth regulators and repellents, etc., incudin a few CASE
HISTORIES of DEAD DOGS caused by the toxic veterinary
malpracticioners like sharon aka sharon too, veterinary
malpractice office manager / mrs. veterinary malpracticioner
SELLIN POISON and obsfucating EFFECTIVE NON
PHARMACUTICAL preventatives and treatments.

> Well, I am amazed to have provoked perhaps the
> longest post ever from Jerry Howe.

Probably not. HOWEver, most of it was quoted from Dr.
Pitcairn and other reputable sources DISCREDITING
the veterinary malpracticioners who'd advise you to
POISON your dog as evidenced by the DEAD DOGS
cited.

> Maybe there are some good words of advice in this long winded rant,

The Sincerely Incredibly Freakin Insanely Simply Amazing Grand
Puppy, Child, Pussy, Birdy And Horsey Wizard DON'T GIVE ADVICE,
paulie. HE TEACHES HIS 100% CONSISTENTLY NEARLY INSTANTLY SUCCESSFUL
FREE WWW Wits' End Dog, Child, Kat And Horse Training Method Manual
Students ALL OVER he WHOWEL WILD WORLD HOWE to make their dogs
naturally want to DO ANYTHING THEY'RE ASKED, and FOR FREE, to boot.

Your dog lover pals like to ADVISE folks The Sincerely Incredibly
Freakin Insanely Simply Amazing Grand Puppy, Child, Pussy, Birdy
And Horsey Wizard is SELLIN sumpthin <{): ~ ) >

> but I merely skimmed through it.

The last we was talkin, you was fixin to GET RID of your dog
on accHOWENT of he escapes your HOWES and molests your kat
and is hyperactive and pulls on leash.

REMEMBER paulie?

> The condescending attitude and knee-jerk criticism is just too much.

NO PROBLEMO, paulie.

The Sincerely Incredibly Freakin Insanely Simply Amazing Grand
Puppy, Child, Pussy, Birdy And Horsey Wizard graciHOWESLY ACCEPTS
your sincere APOLOGY <{} : ~ ) >

Perhaps you should follow the ADVICE of your dog lover pals
here abHOWETS an snip cross posts and put NINNYBOY in the
submect header to spare them EMBARRASSMENT of two dog lovers
like us, talkin business <{}: ~ ) >

LIKE THIS:

Hello professor lying doc dermer,

"Marshall Dermer" <der...@alpha1.csd.uwm.edu> wrote in message
news:9lceuo$tbg$1...@uwm.edu...

> In article <2e501ccd.0108141341.7f18d...@posting.google.com>
> mattburns...@yahoo.com (Matthew Burnside) writes:
> Dear Matt:
> Many have offered Jerry constructive advice

Yes professor. You spend most of your posting here discussing
Jerry's advice, and warning people not to listen to me, and at the
same time, endorse koehler and your Thug pals whose advice you
"value" who coincidentally CHOKE, SHOCK, and BEAT dogs to train
them.

What's up with that, professor descartes? Hmm? Got a problem for
animals having thoughts and sensibilities not very dissimilar to
those of ourselves, without anthropomorphising?

> but Jerry has failed to profit from it.

Sorry professor lying doc dermer, you are the one who'se failed to
profit from it in two ways. First, you've never taken advantage of
the excellent information in my FREE Wits' End Dog Training Method
manual based on my thirty eight years experience specializing in
temperament and behavior problems mostly in giant breed dogs,
because YOU NEVER READ THE TEXT.

Secondly professor, you were offered the opportunity to edit my FREE
Wits' End Dog Training Method manual, for your own price. You've
spent countless hours criticizing the very best dog training
information available at any price, professor. Perhaps that's
because you thought I was being condescending in my criticism of the
universities that have perpetuated abusive dog training and handling
methodologies, because that's where you stopped reading my manual...

> My sincere advice is to filter out Jerry's posts.

Because I've proven you and your pals to be lying, dog abusing
Thugs, professor? Tell us you do not endorse the abusive methods our
koehler trainers use.

> --Marshall

> PS: I have put "Ninnyboy" in the header for many of us filter
> posts with this term. The term indicates that the post
> is about Jerry.

Good thinking, professor. What about Marilyn and Canis55? And Paul
B? And Lisa B? And Charles? And Misty? And Robert Crim? You remember
Robert Crim, don't you professor? His wonder dog Fritz was one of
our koehler method vicitims. Here's one of my friend Robert's last
posts, talking about killfiling me and Marilyn, professor.

-------------------

> So, Jerry, "Howe" much time has your mostly
> unread post subtracted from your life?

THIS IS The Sincerely Incredibly Freakin Insanely Simply
Amazing Grand Puppy, Child, Pussy, Birdy And Horsey
Wizard's LIFE, therefore workin on your post fulfils
LIFE, not detracts from it, paulie.

But to answer your question more precisely, it took professor
dermer SIX YEARS to write this, acknowledgin that EVERYTHING
he teaches and believes is DEAD WRONG <{}; ~ ) >

Here's professor "SCRUFF SHAKE and SCREAM NO! into ITS face for
five seconds and lock IT in a box for ten minutes contemplation"
dermer of the Department of ANAL-ytic Behavior at UofWI, pryor:

From: Marshall Dermer (der...@alpha1.csd.uwm.edu)
Subject: Re: Jerry's Dog Training Manual
Date: 2001-07-12 06:49:13 PST

And how do we know this aspect of his
advice is right?

Jerry is not God and his manual is not the Bible.
His advice could be subject to an empirical analysis.

(Also, it is best to killfile posts from the
few regulars here who are either ill-tempered,
ill-mannered, or just plain ill.­),

--Marshall

Marshall Lev Dermer/ Department of Psychology/ University of
Wisconsin-Milwaukee/ Milwaukee, WI 53201/ der...@uwm.edu
http://www.uwm.edu/~dermer
"Life is just too serious to be taken entirely seriousyl!"

Here's professor dermer AFTER gettin JERRYIZED:

"We Are Lucky To Have You, And More People Should
Come To Their Senses And Support Your Valuable Work.
God Bless The Puppy Wizard," Professor Marshall Dermer,
Dept Of ANAL-ytic Behavior, UofWI.

From: "Marshall Dermer" <der...@csd.uwm.edu>
To: "The Puppy Wizard"
<ThePuppyWiz...@earthlink.net>
Sent: Friday, July 23, 2004 2:53 PM

Subject: God Bless The Puppy Wizard
Dear Mr. Puppy Wizard,

I have, of late, come to recognize your genius
and now must applaud your attempts to save
animals from painful training procedures.

You are indeed a hero, a man of exceptional talent­,
who tirelessly devotes his days to crafting posts ­to
alert the world to animal abuse.

We are lucky to have you, and more people should
come to their senses and support your valuable
work.

Have you thought of establishing a nonprofit
charity to fund your important work?
Have you thought about holding a press conference
so others can learn of your highly worthwhile
and significant work?

In closing, my only suggestion is that you
try to keep your messages short for most
readers may refuse to read a long message
even if it is from the wise, heroic Puppy Wizard.
I wish you well in your endeavors.

--Marshall Dermer

> I took Muttley on a nice long walk today on the NCRR trail,

That's nice. You been followin the dog whisperer's ADVICE, paulie?

> and he behaved well.

You mean when you choked him pupperly.

> We met some nice people,

"Birds of a feather," eh, paulie <{) : ~ ) >

> got some good exercise and fresh air,

That's heelthful, paulie.

> and the fleas seem to be more under control.

That so? They jump off the dog to lay eggs.

> Muttley is now calmly relaxing and he seems quite happy.

So long as you don't try an POISON him someMOORE.

> I would be pleased to read any advice offered,

You know where you'll find it, paulie.

> but I will not spend time sorting through thousands of words

You mean the INFORMATION you need, paulie.

> of abuse and criticism

Like HOWE you do your dog, paulie. We was just
talkin abHOWET HOWE he terrorizes your kat.

Shit rolls DHOWEN hill, eh paulie <{}; ~ ) >

Here's some ADVICE from WON of your pals HOWE
to make your dog an kat PALS, paulie:

"You Lying Sack Of Dung.When Have I Ever Said
Anything About Using A Prong Collar, Or Any Collar
Correction At All, To Make Dogs Friendly To House
Cats? Don't bother. The answer is never," lying "I
LOVE KOEHLER" lynn.

lying "I LOVE KOEHLER" lynn writes about kats and dogs:

"This Article Is Something We've Put Together
For SF GSD Rescue

From: Lynn Kosmakos (lkosma...@home.com)
Subject: Re: I have a dog he has cats
Date: 1999/11/20

ginge...@my-deja.com wrote:
> How can I get him to quit chasing the cats.

Okay - this is going to be a bit loooong - Lynn K.

"Put a prong collar with a six-foot leash on the dog. Don't
forget to put the muzzle on the dog. I think a prong works
better than a choke with less chance of injury to the dog in
this situation.

Electronics can be used to create an aversion to cats, but
should be used under the direction of a trainer who knows how
to instruct the owner in their proper use. Electronics can
take the form of shock, sonic or citronella collars. At that
time the owner will train with electronics instead of food or
whatever other reward system was being used."

8) Put a prong collar with a six-foot leash on the dog.
Don't forget to put the muzzle on the dog. I think a prong
works better than a choke with less chance of injury to the
dog in this situation. Have the dog in a sit-stay next to
you with most of the slack out of the leash and let the cat
walk through the room and up to the dog if it wishes (this is
why you have the dog muzzled).

If the dog makes an aggressive move towards the
cat, it must be corrected strongly with both your
voice and the collar.

This is important - the correction must be physically
very strong - not a nag. (PS: not many dogs need
to be corrected at all)."

> from someone who obviously has, (but will not
> acknowledge), serious mental health issues.

Acknowledgement is the first step to HEELIN, paulie.

LIKE THIS:

"I used to work the Kill Room as a volunteer in
one shelter.) But their ability to set their own
schedules and duties causes a great deal of
scheduling overhead.

And it takes effort and thought to ensure that
volunteers get the meaningful experience that
they work for.

Someone has to be responsible for that
Volunteer Program, and it is best done
by a non-volunteer."

Lynn K.

----------------

"I worked with one shelter where I bathed and groomed
every adoptable dog on intake. I frankly felt that the
effort/benefit equation was not balanced for some of the
older/ill poodle/terrier mixes we got in badly matted condition.

Should I have refused to groom them?

Or even more pertinent - I was one of the people who
had to make the euthanasia decisions at that shelter."

Lynn K.

----------------

Baghdad Bob <Baghdadbob> wrote in message
<news:04591a2c5d469ef78d35c89ed4ed58f7@TeraNews>...

Lynn, looks like he got you there if these
quotes are true.
In the posts below you take responsibility for
making those calls.

In your post above, you state you do not
make those calls.

Which one is it?

WORDS OF WISDOM
From Our Own Lynn Kosmakos
1200mg Of Lithium And 50 mg Of Zoloft
EVERY DAY
For Twenty Years

I THINK I'M QUALIFIED TO TALK ABOUT LITHIUM

"I, too, have a bi-polar mood disorder (manic-
depression) requiring 1200mg of lithium and 50
mg of Zoloft every day.

I, also, care about dogs and use this forum to
learn more, while happily sharing pertinent
information I have learned. But if I were ever
to post such sh*t, I would hope that every other
reader of this group would be rightfully outraged."

"Community is an evolutionary thing that we
earn the right to participate in by observing
the easily understood rules and contributing
to in constructive ways."

"It wasn't that meds didn't work for her
- she wouldn't take them. I particularly remember
a comment she made about scarey side effects of
Lithium. Hardly. After 17 years on it, I think
I'm qualified to say that the very low risk of
any side effect is far less frightening than the
very real dangers of life without it."

Lynn K.

> Thanks,

Not to worry paulie. Mental illness AIN'T a LIFE SENTENCE.
But you AIN'T gonna GET CURED usin traditional methods.

> Paul

RPD* MeNTally Ill All_StaRz as of 7/27/2004

KUCKOO!! KUCKOOO! DING! DING! DING! List

List Of Confirmed Mentally Ill (CRAZY)Regulars

RPD CRAZY PERSON ROLL CALL And BIOS

!CAVEAT!

This List Is NOT Up To Date:
If You Ain't On The List, PLEASE,:

<YOUR NAME GOES HERE>

(please proudly add your name and the drugs/disorders specific
to you, if you are also mentally ill). If we all come forward,
we can help each other with our problems. Remember, mental illness
is nothing to be ashamed of. It's not your fault if you have a
defective brain which may cause you to act like an extreme hypocrite
and/or idiot and/or robot without your being aware of it).

Also, please notify us if you are *not* mentally ill, and have
been added to this by mistake, so we can make our corrections
and remove you from the crazy person list.

===========================================

Subject: Re: A few issues...MenTal List

MENTAL ILLNESS IN RPD*

Mental illness is a public issue in the dog newsgroups.
People are always running around calling other people
mentally ill and diagnosing their illnesses. I think
it's only fair that we have an accurate list of who
is and who isn't mentally ill, so that we can avoid
any misunderstandings and promote group harmony.
This list is strictly for group harmony purposes.

=======================================

Here's the RHOWEndup:

BREAKING NEWS.

Sexual Abuse And Dog Training Go Together
Like A Child And Paddle

From: polara (lar...@muchomail.com)
Subject: Was: Girls' stirrings, now: Mother's doubts
Newsgroups: soc.sexuality.spanking
Date: 2004-04-13 06:51:18 PST

in a message responding to Polara's answer to Paul Mera's
question about spanko girls' fantasies etc:

"ayla" <aylaa...@hotpopidiotproof.com> wrote

| I had fantasies just like that on my walks home from school,
| as well as in my room at night. However, I did *not*
| baby-sit for anyone cool enough to have "O" on their
| bookshelf. Makes me determined to have my books in a public,
| inconspicuous place for my babysitters to find if they need
| it. And, my kids too.
|
| Thank you for sharing this, it's nice to know I'm not the
| only one. :-)
|
| ayla

You're welcome! You're not the only one!

I agree with you about making the books discreetly available
to the youngsters. But I feel it's a fine line to tread.
I gave my kid "Sex for Dummies" when he was 13, because his
school did not have any kind of Sex Ed, no matter what
euphemism you name it with. I didn't have any trouble telling
him what I felt he needed to know, or answering what he wanted
to know, at any age so far - he's 18 now, and as far as I can
tell, done asking.

But I haven't talked to him about my favourite kink. (Though
since I know he digs through my bedside bookshelf at will,
he's probably realised my collection is pretty skewed.)

Why not? I have to admit I haven't made a well-considered
decision. It just seemed like "more than he probably wants or
needs to know." It's no secret, and if he asked me, "Mom are
you really into getting spanked/spanking?" I'd tell him "Yes,
I think it's sexy and fun."

Would you tell your own kids or others about liking spanking?

I also keep my precious spanking videos under lock and key.
Why? Since I'm willing to let the books be "found"? Darned if
I know, but again it feels like its more than I want him to be
exposed to through ME. Maybe it's my personal interpretation
of the incest taboo. If he wants to rustle up his own spanking
video and watch it on my machine in my house, fine. But if he
gets it from me...not fine. Show me where it says I have to be
consistent.

Anybody else got an opinion on this?

Polara

Chris Jung

(Prozac and Welbutrin,
cognitive therapy)

CHRIS JUNG on the PROZE and CONS of PROZAC

I have to comment here. Anti-depressants such
as Prozac do not have any "drugging" effect. It
doesn't tranquilize, make euphoric, or cause
any sort of change in behavior except for
bringing the brain imbalances back to normal
and thus reducing depression. I take Prozac and
the difference between being on Prozac and not
is very subtle. I still feel everything (happy,
sad, nervous, mad) but I'm just not as
unreasonably bummed about it.

=============================================

WORDS OF WISDOM
From Our Own Lynn Kosmakos
1200mg Of Lithium And 50 Mg Of Zoloft
Every Day
For Twenty Years.

I THINK I'M QUALIFIED TO TALK ABOUT LITHIUM

"I, too, have a bi-polar mood disorder (manic-depression)
requiring 1200mg of lithium and 50 mg of Zoloft every day.
I, also, care about dogs and use this forum to learn more,
while happily sharing pertinentinformation I have learned.

But if I were ever to post such sh*t, I would hope that
every other reader of this group would be rightfully outraged."

"Community is an evolutionary thing that we earn the right
to participate in by observing the easily understood rules
and contributing to in constructive ways."

Lynn K.

-----------------------------------------

MOTHER AND CHILD REUNION
"KUCKOO!! CUCKOO!!!"
MOTHER (LOIS E.) 22 YEARS on TRICYCLICS,
DAUGHTER BIPOLAR...
YOU DO THE MATH

"What's really terrific, is now days you can
say proudly, 'I take anti-depressives'"

^^^^DARLIN DEAR DAUGHTER DEIDRE MURDERED HER OWN
DEAD DOG *(Her *HEART DOG* Of TEN YEARS) for
DESTRUCTIVE SEPARATION ANXXXIHOWESNESS.

From: Gary & lois Edwards (g...@bmi.net)
Subject: Re: Where is Darlene?

Date: 1999/09/02

BEEN ON TRICYCLICS FOR ABOUT 22 YEARS

"I don't take lithium, but I've been on trycyclics
for about 22 years. Been there, done that, have
the t-shirt to prove it. What's really terrific, is now
days you can say proudly, "I take anti-depressives".

Back when I started taking them it was seen as
something shameful.If you cut your leg off, and
were lying there with a bleeding stump, you'd
never let the word depressed, pass your lips, or
the doc's would say, "You're depressed, on medication?

Well, can't have any pain meds.....you could become addicted."

The good old days. I actually had a Great Aunt who's
father locked her in her room back in the twenties
because she was simple. A shame that medication
probably would have helped her live a normal life.

No Denna, I was just saying with Darlene's
personality, she has a way of making grandiose
plans when at the top of her manic cycle....as
does my daughter. I wasn't saying that anyone
with problems could be counted on to be
irresponsible."

Lois E.

*****DARLIN DEAR MOMMY lois SEARCHED for DARLIN DEAR
DAUGHTER DEIDRE on the news groups for months after
hurricane Katrin destroyed her DARLIN DEAR DAUGHTER's
town. They've since been reunited.

Her DEEPLY LOVED HEART DOG is STILL DEAD, HOWEver.

-------------------------------------

REC PET DOGS NEWSGROUPS CRAZY KLUB NEWEST
INDUCTEE BETHGSD July 2004

From: Bethgsd (beth...@aol.comnojunk)
Subject: Re: failed attempt to rehabilitate
aggressive dog

Newsgroups: rec.pets.dogs.behavior
Date: 2002-04-11 16:42:08 PST

Gwen wrote:

>Absolutely! And I personally find it somewhat
>insulting that the comparisons of this were made.
>Since I do have epilepsy myself and it is a very
>life threatening disease when one is not on
>medication. Very.
>
>Gwen
>
>

[Bethgsd Responds]

[GWEN, GET YOUR HEAD OUT OF YOUR ASS...
CHEMICAL IMBALANCES CAN BE LIFE THREATENING]

Well, Gwen I suffer from severe depression which
is controlled by a particular SSRI and I find it
insulting that you don't feel that chemical
imbalances can be lifethreatening. No, I don't
go into status but I've attempted to commit
suicide a few too many times. And no, those
weren't little "cries for help" they were honest
to G-D attemts to get out of the pain.

So get your head out of your ass and realize that
chemical imbalances can be as life threatening,
if in a different way, than electrical misfiring.

Beth [aka Bethgsd]

not to be confused with the non crazy
as far as we know, BethF who is ONLY
a LIAR and DOG ABUSER)

----------------------------
LYNN K. 20 plus years on Lithium
LOIS E. 25 plus years on tricyclics

Hello Fans,

here is our latest NEW AND IMPROVED crazy person update,
including our latest mentally unstable person, Lois E.
of Gary and Lois fame who has been on Tricyclics
pushing 25 years. She is no longer afraid to talk about it.

Neither is Lynn K. who embraces her mental illness and
opens up about her 20 plus years on Lithium, as well as
her love afair with Zoloft.

I TOO HAVE A BIPOLAR MOOD DISORDER (MANIC DEPRESSION)
I ALSO CARE ABOUT DOGS COMMUNITY IS AN EVOLUTIONARY THING

WORDS OF WISDOM from our own
Lynn Kosmakos

=======================================

From: Chris Kosmakos (chris...@netcom.com)
Subject: Re: complaints and goodbye

Lisa K. Baird (lba...@infinet.com) wrote:
:
: Sheesh, if everyone would start taking responsibility
: for their own actions, wouldn't life be grand?

LYNN K. and LOIS E, and a BiLateral, BiPolar

conversation on Mental problems.

LYNN AND LOIS

Almost 50 years on mental illness medications combined

> But I think what Lois was referring to
> was the fact that Darlene actually
> stated at some point that she was
> bipolar--and, IIRC, that meds did not work
> for her--so she was prone to major-league
> ups and downs and sudden
> enthusiasms..

"It wasn't that meds didn't work for her
- she wouldn't take them. I particularly remember
a comment she made about scarey side effects of
Lithium. Hardly. After 17 years on it, I think
I'm qualified to say that the very low risk of
any side effect is far less frightening than the
very real dangers of life without it."

Lynn K.
-----------------------------------------

LYNN K. and the UNQUIET MIND
----------------------------------------

From: Lynn Kosmakos (lkosma...@home.com)
Subject: Re: Where is Darlene?
Date: 1999/09/03

BoxHill wrote:

> I know I am totally off topic here, but have you read
> "The Unquiet Mind"?

Yeah. It's interesting, but kind of
watered down for the mass market, if
you know what I mean. There's really
quite a lot of good work out there and
decent research. Thank God.

Lynn K.

lynn kosmakos RPD* Enemy of Dogs #1

(Lithium, Zoloft, bipolar, manic,
depression) will "put down a biter
as fast as anyone" yet claims to
be a saintly dog rescuer. Murders
dogs because of insurance rates
Her brother was attacked by a Golden
Retriever when she was young. For
this reason, she murders easily
trainable dogs. Condemns dogs to
death who are easily trainable
with her "evaluations."

Is nice to people in person, but
her true dog hating nature comes
out on newsgroups with
extreme clarity.

Advocates shooting dogs on sight, when
they chase deer. Sees no other
option. Her own dog Java had to be shocked
with a shock collar to keep him from
chasing deer.

has been on lithium for approximately
20 years. Zoloft for an undetermined
number of years

Lynn K.

From: Chris Kosmakos (chris...@netcom.com)
Subject: Re: Prozac - Good medication or no?

I TAKE A SIMILAR DRUG MYSELF

"Yes, for very specific behaviorial problems.
I would have to trust my vet and behaviorist
a lot, and be very sure that I had exhausted
every other option before I used Prozac to
deal with a dog problem - and I take a
similar drug, Zoloft, myself."

Lynn K.

CAUGHT ON TAPE AT WOODSTOCK (I'M IN THE MOVIE)

From: Lynn K. (java...@yahoo.com)
Subject: Re: Using Zoloft or Prozac as a one
shot treatment
Newsgroups: rec.pets.dogs.behavior
Date: 2001-09-27 23:13:46 PST

Gwen Watson <g...@ig.utexas.edu> wrote in message
<news:3BB2402B...@ig.utexas.edu>...

> At Woodstock?????? Oh you lucky, lucky women!
> I will be forever jealous of you devulging this tid
> bit of info! GGGGggggggggggggggrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!

More of us than you know. I'm even in the movie.
Let me tell you about trying to advise a teenager
about drugs after the ever-helpful uncle points out
your 15 seconds of fame - passing a joint to the
cameraman as Arlo Gutrie croons "coming into Los
Angeleeeze......." in the background :-( Kind of
undermines the parental authority thing.

Lynn K.

=============================================

HOWEDY Soup,

Thanks Soup.

You'd think your list got 'm covered, Soup to NUTS, eh???

But you ain't.

There's STILL a few loose SCREWBALLS missin.

For starters, you forgot the cutters and sexual sadists, Soup.

Look up susan frazier and looney toons aka laura arlov.

If You Ain't On The List, PLEASE,:

<YOUR NAME GOES HERE>

(please proudly add your name and the drugs/disorders specific
to you, if you are also mentally ill). If we all come forward,
we can help each other with our problems. Remember, mental illness
is nothing to be ashamed of. It's not your fault if you have a
defective brain which may cause you to act like an extreme hypocrite
and/or idiot and/or robot without your being aware of it).

Also, please notify us if you are *not* mentally ill, and have
been added to this by mistake, so we can make our corrections
and remove you from the crazy person list.

===========================================

Michael Further Explains The Mental Illness List

In the past, before Michael fixed things, this was a
way to shut people up and discredit people. Calling
them mentally ill. shelly told us not to even talk
to the mentally ill.

But it turned out most of the people doing the
accusing and finger pointing and "you better take
your meds" etc... were mentally ill themselves.

That's a huge story, and I SCOOPED IT.

MaryBeth for instance, was constantly telling
people to take their meds. Once I started to
do a little research, the floodgates opened
and an amazing story unfolded.

=====================================

(Oh, an pardon The Amazing Puppy Wizard for TOP
POSTIN, Soup. It's NOT a symptom of dominance
HOWEver, it's MOORE like laziness.)

Kelly/ severe OCD, ADD, major depression with culprit
psychotic features, panic and more. Coming forward so that
others like her will have the strength to do the same. Like
Charlie Wilkes, she is one of our most entertraining regulars

Here, kelly/culprit talks to Mustang Sally about her mental
illness/crazy problems. Sally is being rude and condescending
(as usual) and trying to make kelly/culprit feel bad for being
crazy, aka wacked in the head

culprit standing up for herself against rude and condescending
Mustang Sally -----------------------------------------------

well i wouldn't consider myself mentally healthy. though i'll
refrain from calling myself ill if it makes you feel better.
and no, ADD is not the major problem, i certainly know that, i
just mentioned it because of the impulsivity issues.

i wasn't trying to imply i'm disabled by it.

but i stand by the fact that OCD is an illness, major
depression with psychotic features certainly is, panic
disorder is too. and the other stuff just makes it all the
more fun.

i don't wallow in it. i'm just now learning to accept it,
because ignoring it wasn't working out too well. i need to do
that to make changes to my life so that i can become healthy.
and you say you're not trying to be condescending, but you're
doing it again. what i read was, (my paraphrasing) "people
who think they're mentally ill are wallowing in their
disabilities and letting them consume their life" you come
across as though you would be able to handle any of these
illnesses, and anyone who can't is just copping out.

well we're all different. and i don't accept your idea that i
would have a more productive life if i denied my problems.

i tried it for years, and believe me, it didn't work very
well.

-kelly --------------------------------------------

From: culprit (culp...@flashmail.com) Subject: Re: another
eevil pit bull story Date: 2003-10-08 08:47:43 PST

"Gwen Watson" <g...@ig.utexas.edu> wrote in message
news:3F842E58...@ig.utexas.edu...

> Yep there it is NAMI. And yes ADHD or ADD or considered as a
> mental illness in which one can apply for many different
> things even in the work force in which they are suppose to
> accomodate you to help improve your condition.
> But I don't care to go there so I am one of those untreated
> ADHD people in the world. Whatever I am nearly 50 and have
> gotten along just fine. Or so I feel fulfilled.

yeah, i'm pretty sure i could qualify for all sorts of
disability stuff (the OCD and ADD are just the tip of my
iceberg). but i don't. i know i can function well enough to
do my job, i'll leave the benefits for those that really need
them.

mine is mostly a social impairment. go figure. :-)

-kelly

From: sighthounds etc. (greypigho...@ncweb.com) Subject: Re:
another eevil pit bull story Date: 2003-10-08 09:12:56 PST

On Wed, 08 Oct 2003 10:33:44 -0500, Gwen Watson
<g...@ig.utexas.edu>
wrote:

>culprit wrote:
>> "sighthounds etc." <greypigho...@ncweb.com> wrote in
>> message news:f8b8ov46ctu1ds18o...@4ax.com...
>> > ADD and OCD are mental illnesses?
>> oh, BTW...

http://www.nami.org/Content/NavigationMenu/Inform_Yourself/Abou
t_M ental_Illness/About_Mental_Illness.htm

>> -kelly
> Yep there it is NAMI. And yes ADHD or ADD or considered as a
> mental illness in which one can apply for many different
> things even in the work force in which they are suppose to
> accomodate you to help improve your condition.
> But I don't care to go there so I am one of those untreated
> ADHD people in the world. Whatever I am nearly 50 and have
> gotten along just fine. Or so I feel fulfilled.

I guess this is just one of those instances in which I feel
that the US is turning into a nation of victims. And please,
don't anybody jump all over me, because I am not talking about
anyone personally. Everything seems to be a compensatable (not
sure if that's actually a word) disability. If 3/4 of the
people are physically disabled or mentally ill, what's
'normal'?

Terrible parents, painful childhoods, physical illnesses,
psychological problems, etc. are all part of who a person is,
and therefore how s/he sees the world and interacts in it. But
life isn't about who you are and what you've got, it's what
you do with it. For me anyway, the more I think of myself as
partially disabled, the more I am that way.

Sorry, I don't mean to sound like Dr. Phil.

Mustang Sally

---------------------

"I'll bet you don't know a thing about me. I volunteered as
assistant to the euthanasia tech at our local shelter for a
while, and I know a bit about overpopulation and unwanted
animals.

This however has nothing at all to do with responsible
breeders, because responsible breeders don't contribute to
that problem," Mustang Sally.

From: Sunni12 (sunn...@aol.com)
Subject: I am
Newsgroups: alt.support.depression
Date: 1998/12/02

a major bitch today

-Sunny

---------------

From: Sunni12 (sunn...@aol.com)
Subject: Re: got a question - how long before I'm an EX-cutter?
Newsgroups: alt.support.depression
Date: 1998/11/30

> I mean, I haven't cut since June. But am I a cutter
> or an ex-cutter now?

> And how long before I am an ex-cutter? anyone
> got any answers?

> I still get sort-of cutting urges, but I haven't had
> 'em very strongly.Just sort of vague thoughts in
> my head. But I think that's going to happen forever.
> Kind of like alcoholics who recover.

> I know that the urge will come back at times of stress,
> but I don't have to do it.

>so, when am I an ex-cutter?

Its been about 9 months since I last cut.

I consider myself a recovering self injurer.

I still get the urge at times.

And like an alcoholic, i could easily slide.

So, Im proud of me for being in recovery from cutting....

And I'm proud of you Laz for being in recovery

and Im proud of everyone else resisting the temptation.

Love, hope and caring to yall all

-Sunny

---------------

From: Sunni12 (sunn...@aol.com)
Subject: Re: is it self injury if:
Newsgroups: alt.support.depression
Date: 1998/12/03

>you pick at scabs and watch them bleed...
>you pick at hangnails and make them bleed...
>you pick at calluses on your feet until they bleed....
>you poke blisters making them bleed....

I dont know.
I wonder myself.
I do the same thing.
Im a self injurer and an obsessive compulsive.
I always thought it was picking from my OCD.

-Sunny

----------------

From: Sunni12 (sunn...@aol.com)
Subject: Re: I wish I was........
Newsgroups: alt.support.depression
Date: 1998/12/05

> sunn...@aol.com (Sunni12) wrote:
>> important
>> needed
>> cared about
>> loved
>> wanted
>> -Sunny
>
> You are all those things, Sunny...& more.
> But I'll give you a few more cyberhugs, anyway...
> {{{{{{{{{{{{{{{SUNNY}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}
> Mary

Thanks. That was a really bad day when I wrote it.
Much better now.

Thanks

Sunny
who should do something about her PMS

Subject: "Secret Cutting"
Groups: alt.support.depression
From: Michael Ball
Date: Tues, May 30 2000 12:00 am
Email: "Michael Ball" <Guard...@wireco.net>

The movie, "Secret Cutting" airs tonight at
9:00 p.m. eastern, on USA Network.

-----------

Groups: alt.support.depression
From: Michael Ball
Date: Mon, Dec 27 1999 12:00 am

Howard Hong wrote,

> "If I wanted more of this feeling, then
> it would probably be a pleasure, no?"

I almost replied, "WRONG!," and offered this explanation:
I sometimes makes little cuts under my watchband, with a
razor blade.

Although there is some physical pain, I feel triumphant
because Michael Ball is getting a little dose of what he
deserves. So, it is a pleasure.

How odd; even sensations that most people would rate as
bad, sick, horrible, etc., can be and are pleasures--if
we want them. I never thought of those insignificant
little cuts specifically as pleasures, but they are!

I love it when little streams of blood trickle down my arm.
And I like the reminder pain over the following couple of
days, during the healing process.

------------

Subject: Prozac
Groups: alt.support.depression
From: Michael Ball - view profile
Date: Mon, Aug 14 2000 12:00 am

Prozac affects everyone differently. Please, don't allow
other's Prozac experiences to influence you too much.

I take another medicine that makes me tired; so, I can't
attribute fatigue to Prozac. FWIW, fatigue is a common
complaint. I don't believe Prozac has any effect on one's
immune system. In my humble opinion, Tabasco Sauce and
jalapeno peppers are far more effective than any flu shot!
:-) I haven't had a cold in years. :-)

Wait a minute! A cat lover!? Oh, well, I suppose someone has to...

(((K))) I hope you're doing well today.

Michael

-------------

Groups: alt.support.depression
From: Michael Ball
Date: Mon, Mar 13 2000 12:00 am

"Rage"? "Again"? I wonder if a lot of folks get angry
at their therapists, and why? My therapist used to try
to convince me that Michael Ball is not so bad. That
annoyed me so much! I'm not sure what bothered me most:
the fact that I couldn't seem to convince him of the truth;
or the thought that he was trying to trick me; or something
entirely different.

He was a nice guy, but I just couldn't get him to see the
real me. Ha! If I had, he might have stopped wasting his
effort! We eventually began working on his problems. :-)

Misplaced aggression? Is that why we tend to attack
some of those who want to "help" us?

----------

michael VOLUNTEERS at the shelter MURDERIN DOGS for
PLEASURE (and a little FREE dog food) and arbritrarily
and criminally MURDERS INNOCENT KATS on the street
(JUST LIKE HOWER OWN diddler does) for HIS OWN SADISTIC
PLEASURE when he AIN'T MURDERIN DOGS FOR HIS OWN PLEASURE
at the "SHELTER":

From: "Michael A. Ball" <Guard...@wireco.net>
Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 22:35:20 -0500

Subject: Re: Ethical Dilemma (Son bitten by dog
in schoolyard) (long)

"AussieResc" <aussier...@aol.com> wrote>

> I find this amazing that someone who posts on a
> board for rescue would have this attitude.
> Pat

This NG is specifically for dog rescue. I hate cats
and never give a cat an even break--unless they just
happen to break in the middle.

When I started to work at the animal shelter, cleaning
kennels, I was asked if I liked cats. I replied
enthusiastically, "Yes, if they are cooked right!"

I've never had to work with the cats! :-)

We're all different.

Michael

From: Michael A. Ball - view profile
Date: Sat, Apr 8 2006 3:51 pm

>"Andrew A. Nanton" <a.nan...@gmail.com> wrote
>> What is the best way to perform home euthanasia on a dog?
>> I want to put down the family pet but I don't have a lot
>> of money and if there is a way to do it humanely and cheaply,
>> I will.
>> All replies appreciated.
>> Andrew Nanton

That's a lot of wisdom--for a "top poster".

$50.00 for euthanasia and cremation is a real bargain.
The same service would be about $120.00 for a 40# dog,
in this area.

You know, I don't believe in beating around the bush much.
I believe we ought to say what's on our mind. I see you
hold a similar view. Of course, having a small mind
complicates things. That was quite a generalization you
made: "Anybody that can't afford that ($50.00 to have
their pet killed) shouldn't have a pet in the first place!"

Andrew Nanton didn't mention that the family pet was sick
or aged. So, for all we know, the family is saying good
bye to their pet because they can't afford $50.00 to keep
it alive!

If that is the case, they probably don't have $50.00 to
kill their pet! Either way, they are trying to do the
right thing.

Because of money, my pet ownership days are running out.
I hope you are never faced with that situation.

Whatever it takes.

----------

Here's laura MURDERIN her own DEAD DOG Chewie
and gettin her cookies off gettin pushed arHOWEND
by her S.O.:

HOWEDY laura,

"polara" <lar...@muchomail.com> wrote in message
news:Dblkc.10786$EV2.97520@amstwist00...

> "Marie" <m...@rogers.com> wrote
> <snip>
> | It turns out that her main concern isn't bowling
> | alleys or bus yard offices, it is lawns and parks grass.
> Over here we're getting more warnings that
> raising kids in an overly clean environment
> seems to lead to more asthma/allergy.

INDEED.

> My breeder's grandkids

Your "ETHICKAL breeder" sold you a
REPLACEMENT dog after you MURDERED
your own DEAD DOG Chewie CAUSE YOU
WOULDN'T STOP HURTIN and INTIMIDATING
HIM.

> Laura and Angel in Oslo.

THE COMPLETE DOG NEWSGROUP MENTAL ILLNESS
LIST (WHEW!) AS OF 8/6/2004

BREAKING MENTAL ILLNESS NEWS!

DATELINE: August 6, 2004
NEWSGROUPS: Dog Related + ARK

California Mormon Mom come Kibologist Paula
Makes Dog Newsgroup Mental Illness History

OUR FIRST CRAZY MORMON

Paula is a divorced Mormon Mom who dabbles freely
in Kibology, leaving herself at risk for being
Smite into a pile of rubble by either an angry,
vengeful God or worse yet, a Kibo unglued.

As a California based youth counselor, Paula
helps children deal with physical & emotional
problems while dealing with mental problems of
her own. Particularly chronic depression for
which she is drugged.

Paula has a long history of questioning her
faith, questioning her mother and worrying about
whether or not she'll be excommunicated for the
thoughts in her head. With good reason, after
spending so much time fraternizing with free
thinking, blaspheming Kibologists.

At one point, when Paula was suffering from a
heavy bout of depression, and in violation of
Mormonology and her mother's own advice, she
eschewed prayer and instead enlisted the heelp of
Harco Industries own twillis, who cruelly
flaunted her vaunted Paxil supply

"Sorry, go ride a horse, hands off my Paxil."
says HARCO's twillis

WON'T SHARE MY PAXIL WITH PAULA

From: HarCo Industries (tdwil...@earthlink.net)
Subject: Re: I need
Newsgroups: alt.religion.kibology
Date: 2003-05-13 09:48:41 PST

mmmtobler...@earthlink.ent (Paula) wrote

> I need something to get me out of this
> deepening depression.

I prescribe a horseback ride.

Really.

I'd share my Paxil with you, but I'm selfish.

twillis

To which Paula responded:

THE PAXIL IS NOT ENOUGH

"HAH! Paxil stopped working for me
and I had to switch to Celexa, for the
really and truly messed up!"

Paula

From: Paula (mmmtobler...@earthlink.ent)
Subject: Re: ATTENTION DOCTROID DOCTROID: Thad Van Cenks

paula's concise thesis on depression:

THE PRINGLES ARE NOT ENOUGH

Oh, honey! Pringles are never an adequate defense
against depression. It takes large amounts of premium
ice cream, at the very least.

THE WORLD IS NOT ENOUGH
BUT ZOLOFT IS TOO MUCH

BETTER FAT THAN DEAD

Also, zoloft is not a good anti-depressant because it
makes you fat. Or so an acquaintance of mine told me.
I refrained from pointing out to her that being fat
was not exactly a bad trade-off if you stopped being
suicidal in so many words.

SERIOUSLY, CHRONIC DEPRESSION IS LIKE THIS

Seriously, chronic depression is all about feeling
like shit and not knowing why. If there were a reason,
it would be "the blues" or something equally not quite
fuzzy but not really serious sounding.

YOU KNOW, LIKE FEMALE TROUBLE

THAT'S WHERE GOOD DRUGS COME IN

UNLESS YOU LISTEN TO MY MOM

You know, like "female trouble." This is where good
drugs come in. Unless you listen to my mom, who
thinks that you should be able to pray and read your
scriptures and serve others to happiness and full
enjoyment of living. The rest of us wish she would

It seems that Paula's mom tries to make her feel bad for
being mental, just like Sighthounds aka Mustang Sally
tried to make Kelly aka Culprit feel bad about her mental
problems

WISH YOU WOULD SHUT THE HELL UP AND
GET ON SOME MEDS YOURSELF, MOM!

not only shut up about how to treat our issues but
also stay on some good meds herself.

DRUGS MORE EXPENSIVE THAN PRAYERS OR PRINGLES
BUT FROM PERSONAL EXPERIENCE, DRUGS WORK BETTER

Anyway, I have to say the good drugs route works much
better and takes less time, too. It's more expensive
than praying and pringles, but it's worth it. Get
thee to a good psychiatrist. If you can find a good
therapist, that helps, too.

DO NOT BEAT YOURSELF UP

Do not in any way, shape or form beat up on yourself
for your depression making no sense or not being made
worse by commercials, however. That is an order.

Paula

Paula's mother would prefer that her children pray to
the Mormon God or Jesus, or whomever the Mormons pray
to, but Paula and her brother prefer drugging themselves
instead.

MY BROTHER, MY PAXIL

rmho...@mindspring.com wrote:
> >Youre talking to someone on meds for
> >Social Phobia.

Sarah Cherlin <scher...@pacbell.net> wrote:
> Ummm...what are those? I need to know for,
> like, a friend.

Paula (mmmtobler...@earthlink.net) responds

PAXIL MADE ALL THE DIFFERENCE

For my brother, paxil made all the difference.
He feels like a new person, and acts like one
too. And he has been living with a hawt chyk
for years now when before he had problems with
supervisors at work, with friendships and with
wimmin because he just never felt socially
comfortable. It really has made a huge
difference for him.

Paula

Paula discussing both her own, and more
specifically, the mental problems of her husband
before they got divorced, exhibiting a slight
masochistic bent:

From: Paula (mmmtobler...@earthlink.ent)
Subject: Re: Marriage and Kids
Newsgroups: soc.religion.mormon
Date: 2003-11-02 08:28:04 PST

ASKED HUBBY TO BEAT ME

Yes. I once told my husband that I wished he
would hit me. He didn't believe me. I asked him
what was more hurtful and had the longest lasting
and most devastating effect on him, the physical
abuse or the emotional abuse he suffered as a child.

HE COULD ONLY CRY

BUT AGREED TO GO TO COUNSELING

He could only cry. He agreed to go to counseling
immediately after processing that question. I don't
think you have to sit around while your spouse beats

WHO IS BEATING WHOM?

up your spirit any more than you are expected to sit
around waiting for the next physical beating. There
are other reasons cancellations of sealings have been
granted, even in the stricter days, so it appears
there are various "legitimate" reasons for divorce,
even when it is a temple marriage

Paula uses her own mental illness experience to help
her in her capacity as counselor to others who
are suffering with mental problems. Here, Paula
coaches Matt into taking some Paxil, so that
Skylab won't fall on him.

Matt McIrvin <mmcir...@world.std.com> wrote:

PAULA, I KNOW SKYLAB IS GOING TO FALL ON ME

> No, it's a sign that *I personally* have a
> tendency to become worried about catastrophic
> consquences of everything. I've known this
> for a long time-- when I was twelve, I was
> convinced that Skylab was going to fall ON
> ME PERSONALLY--

MATT, TAKE IT EASY AND TAKE SOME PAXIL

Matt, you are a sweetheart, but definitely a
worrying sweetheart. I hope you can find a way to
calm down your fears and turn off that cycle of
escalating worry. I have an aunt like that and
she has literally driven herself crazy....
I don't want you to end up like that. Take it
easy and take some paxil.

Paula

========================================

NEW!
LYNN K. Staunch Law and Order type
CAUGHT ON TAPE AT WOODSTOCK!
Passing Joint to Cameraman

From: Lynn K. (java...@yahoo.com)
Subject: Re: Using Zoloft or Prozac as a one shot treatment
Newsgroups: rec.pets.dogs.behavior
Date: 2001-09-27 23:13:46 PST

Gwen Watson <g...@ig.utexas.edu> wrote in message
<news:3BB2402B...@ig.utexas.edu>...

> At Woodstock?????? Oh you lucky, lucky women!
> I will be forever jealous of you devulging this tid
> bit of info! GGGGggggggggggggggrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!

More of us than you know. I'm even in the movie.
Let me tell you about trying to advise a teenager
about drugs after the ever-helpful uncle points out
your 15 seconds of fame - passing a joint to the
cameraman as Arlo Gutrie croons "coming into Los
Angeleeeze......." in the background :-( Kind of
undermines the parental authority thing.

Lynn K.

==========================================

REC.PETS.DOGS CRAZY PERSON LIST
as of
8/1/2004
-----------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------

BREAKING MENTAL ILLNESS NEWS

DATELINE: AUGUST 1, 2004

Tara O. aka, Tee is an Anorexia Survivor

UNTIL YOU'VE LIVED WITH THIS DISORDER
YOU CANNOT UNDERSTAND HOW DEVASTATING

Tara O. aka Tee, is in many ways a typical suburban
South Carolinian soccer mom. Upon casual inspection,
nothing appears to be amiss. Tara, aka Tee spends her
free time surfing the internet and is a big fan of the
WB's "Gilmore Girls." Tara is also a passionate member
of the Carolina Boxer Rescue network. The only sign of
controversy or untowardness is that Tara's own Boxer
Summer was suddently put to sleep in October 2001,
despite several offers from an Orlando, FL dog expert
(Jerry Howe) to adopt her, claiming he could easily
cure Summer's behavioral problems.

Looking at Tara today, you'd never know that when she
was a teen, she suffered for five years with the
debilitating mental disorder, known as anorexia.
Tara is now a healthy weighted (some would say
plump) mom in her thirties, but during her teens
Tara O. (along with her Bulimic Friend), looked like
a skeleton.

like so many of the mentally ill before her, Tara O.
is coming forward because she wants to educate those
who come after her. The message Tara is sending is
clear. Mental illness is nothing to be ashamed of.
"We don't have to hide any longer!" she seems to be
saying.

Tara O. aka, Tee attributes her anorexia to
a lack of self esteem, which sprung from peer
pressure and an upbringing that could have been
more nurturing.

Determined that the same fate not befall her daughter
Amie, and out of a belief that no child should have to
follow the same path of self destruction and starvation,
Tara, in graphic and sometimes excruciating detail
relives the drama of how she was bowed and broken by,
but ultimately came back to beat anorexia.

YOU GO (gilmore) Girl!

Tara and Amie's harrowing saga (below) is a cautionary
tale and a must read for all of those, who care deeply
about the future of young girls in America. This is an
issue that affects both young and old, black and white,
male and female all across America.

Tara is doing everything in her power, including
medicating her daughter Amie with Ritalin, so that Amie
does not have to feel the sting of self esteem issues,
brought on by peer pressure courtesy of the cliques of
marauding "mean girls" who prey on young females
struggling to find their way and their indentity during
the precarious and perilous passage from adolescence
to young adulthood. We can only be thankful that Tara
prevailed and lived to tell her story.

We wish Tara O and her daughter Amie nothing but success
in overcoming mental illness and mental disorders. Tara
and Amie, you are an inspiration to us all!

I BATTLED ANOREXIA FOR MOST OF MY TEEN YEARS
WE BOTH LOOKED STICK THIN

Well if you had one and you did it to gain attention
then quite frankly you'd be the first person I have
ever heard of taking that approach. I battled anorexia
for most of my teen years and had a very good
acquaintance who was bulimic and almost died. We both
looked stick thin but could cover the circles around
our eyes with makeup and the colorless, chapped lips
with lipstick. How often did any of us see Diana out
in public during this time with no makeup on as well
as up-close & personal?

--
Tara
Carolina Boxer Rescue

UNTIL YOU'VE LIVED WITH THIS DISORDER
YOU CANNOT UNDERSTAND HOW DEVASTATING
IT'S NOT LIKE SLITTING YOUR WRISTS

Until you've lived with an eating disorder, you cannot
understand how devastating they can be or what goes on
in the person's head during the time. Book smarts are
all good and well but there is never just one
cut-and-dried reason for becoming bulimic or anorexic.
Your whole theory is shot simply by the fact that the
vast majority of bulimics and anorexics go out of their
way to HIDE their problems. They do not want attention
drawn to themselves. Its not like slitting your wrists
in the wrong direction so that people will know you want
or need help.

--
Tara
Carolina Boxer Rescue

------------

From: Tara O. (tara29...@yahoo.com)
Subject: Re: Does Liza Weil have anorexia?
Newsgroups: alt.tv.gilmore-girls
Date: 2002-10-10 10:54:39 PST

SORRY TO BE GRAPHIC
HER NICE-SIZED CHEST WOULD SHRINK AND DROOP

She doesn't look anorexic to me. She'd be much
skinner, much bonier and her nice-sized chest would
shrink & droop. Sorry to be graphic but I know a
good bit about the disease and the effects it has
on appearance

--
Tara
Carolina Boxer Rescue
http://cbr.homestead.com

--------------------

"Tom" <tomlit...@hotmail.com> wrote

> So, from your view, why did Diana write a book by
> way of Andrew Morton that talked ALL about it? And
> then, why did she go on PANOROMA and talk about it
> some more?

FOR FIVE YEARS, I LOOKED LIKE A SKELETON, AND I
WANT TO HELP OTHERS. I'M STEPPING FORWARD, TOM

For the same reason that I've talked about my 5-year
problem with anorexia to others.....to educate others
and to help explain why when anyone sees pictures of
me during my teens, I look like a skeleton.

--
Tara
Carolina Boxer Rescue

----------

LEAVE PRINCESS DI ALONE, TOM

Newsgroups: alt.gossip.royalty
Date: 2002-08-06 05:35:07 PST

"Tom" <tomlit...@hotmail.com> wrote

> If she had been as sick as she said she was
> she would not have looked as good as she did.
> Her hair and teeth and
> skin would have been ragged and spotty.
> It's really that simple.

YOU'VE NEVER SUFFERED FROM THIS ILLNESS, TOM
YOU'VE NEVER STARVED YOURSELF, DAMMIT, I HAVE

No its not and you've obviously never suffered from
this illness or anorexia which is related. Firstly,
I've seen pictures of her where she did look deathly.
It was very likely only due to heavy makeup and help
with her hair that she even managed to look
presentable.

--
Tara
Carolina Boxer Rescue

---------

PEIR PRESSURE AND ANOREXIA

"Tom" <tomlit...@hotmail.com> wrote

> Bulimia is a sympton of a personality disorder.
> I'm not sure what doctor's you're talking to.
> Diana was absolutely a textbook example
> of a borderline personality:

LOOK, TOM, I SAW A DOCTOR FOR MY ANOREXIA
SO I KNOW A LITTLE MORE ABOUT THIS THAN YOU

"I've never heard of low self-esteem being
classified as a personality disorder. The doctors
I refer to are the ones who lectured at one of my
high school as well as a doctor I had to see for my
anorexia."

> Borderline personality disorder is characterized
> by mood instability
> and poor self-image.

PIER PRESSURE IS A BIG PROBLEM FOR TEENS, TOM

"Low self-esteem affects alot of people at some
point in their life, usually in their teens when
pier opinion is very important. Then there is
the lack of self-esteem created by a verbally
abusive friend or family member. You tell
someone something enough times and they might
just start believing you."

> Everything is related to personality.
> I don't see how you can say
> that any mental illness is NOT related to
> a personality disorder.
> Where are you getting your information?

MENTAL DISORDERS HAVE A WAY OF SHOWING
THEMSELVES THROUGH WORDS, TOM

"Related yes as in mental disorders have a way
of showing themselves through someone's words &
actions which can be interpreted as personality.
But mental issues and personality issues are not
one in the same."

--
Tara
Carolina Boxer Rescue
http://cbr.homestead.com

WHAT I HAVE LEARNED, TOM

From all I know of bulimia, it is not normally
a symptom of a personality disorder such as manic
depression, bi-polar, or anything else. It is,
most of the time from what I have come to know,
a byproduct of someone having too little
self-esteem. There are other reasons but none
that cause bulimia as often as lack of
self-esteem from what I have learned.

--
Tara

------------------

TARA'S DAUGHTER AMIE IS BEING DRUGGED FOR ADHD

From: Tee (crappolagozh...@netscape.net)
Subject: Re: OT - ADHD
Newsgroups: rec.pets.dogs.behavior
Date: 2004-02-07 21:09:37 PST

I'M NOT A RITALIN PUSHER

I should add that I'm not an ADHD or
Ritalin pusher. While there are diehard
disbelievers there are also diehard believers,
almost fanatical. My contributions to this
thread on children are based solely on my own
experience with Amie for the last 3.5 years
...

ONLY A WEEK

Amie has only been on the medication for a week.
We and the teacher have already noticed a
significant change in her ability to not only pay
attention
...

CLEARED ALL THE CHAOS AND NOISE

Its like someone cleared all the chaos & noise
out of her head and took the earplugs out of her
ears. That's not to say I swear by the drug because
its still in the trial phase with her but if this is
what we can expect from this medication then she'll
remain on it until she chooses not to.
...

MY DAUGHTER WILL NEVER BE AN HONOR STUDENT,
BUT I'M OKAY WITH THAT

My daughter will never be an honor roll student and
I don't care about that, I just don't want her to
fail school and watch her friends move on for something
she can't control.

--
Tara

------------------------------------

Dateline: rec.pets.dogs.* newsgroups
Breaking Mental Illness News, JUNE 2004!

HATTIE @ 47 lbs!

Hattie, a boxer owned by shelly couvrette is
now down to 47 pounds. Couvrette, a librarian
at Indiana U. who suffers from obsessive/
compulsive disorder (OCD), was told by three
different Veterinarians that Hattie was "way
too skinny" when Hattie weighed 53 lbs.

Undeterred by that, and the reactions from
family and strangers on the street, shelly
continued shopping for vets and cutting
calories until Hattie,a chronic counter
surfer at age 5 now weighs just 47 lbs!

shelly finds all the symptoms of a starving
dog searching for nutrients to be
entertaining. Couvrette has developed a unique
technique to fool dogs who are having
pangs of starvation. She feeds them
green beans and canned pumpkin, so there
will be some "filler" in their stomachs
when they give her the "I'm Starving--no,
really" routine.

shelly is not nearly as obsessed with her
own weight, and has never been told by a
medical professional that she is "way too
skinny." If so, that medical professional
would be end up on this crazy person list
as well.

For a complete recap of the shelly and
hattie show, page down to the bottom of
this list.

=================================

In other news....
JUNE 2004

LEAH ditches Effexor for Zyban.

Leah Roberts, a professional dog
trainer and former Jew who has turned
her life over to Jesus, has graduated
from the ranks of PetSmart Trainers and
has signed on with a progressive agility
and family pet focused Dog Training outfit
Canine Action based in Orlando, Fl.
http://www.canineaction.com

As part of the move, Leah has switched
mental medications from from Effexor to
Zyban in an attempt to quit smoking. As a
result, she has much more energy, which
has allowed her to pass a colonoscopy exam
with flying colors.

Said Roberts:
"I'm wondering if it was the
med [effexor] and not the CFS that was
affecting me so badly."

Leah continues to improve her life and is
considering buying herself a motorcycle for
her 50th birthday later this year. Leah is
almost to the point where we can remove her
from the crazy person list. But not yet.
We wish her continued success in becoming
crazy-free.

============================================

RPD* MeNTally Ill All_StaRz
KUCKOO!! KUCKOOO! DING! DING! DING!

NESSA
NUTCASE
FORMER MVP (Most Valuable Psychotic) of
dog newsgroups

Successfully dethroned MaryBeth as MVP but
lost her title to shelly due to inactivity

Nessa blames all the problems in her life
on ADD, ADHD Or some other empowering acronym
which encapsulates her futility for her

Her dog bagel, a large newf mix
has used her house liberally
as a toilet since February of 2002. Drives
a 2003 Toyota Matrix, owns a house in
suburban MD, recently got a raise/promotion
to US goverment grade 11 (circa $50,000) and
promptly decided she couldn't afford her two
dogs. With help from non crazy regular
(Paulette) and witchcraft practicing regular
Sara Sionnach, Nessa has decided to keep her
dogs for the time being. She is undergoing
training from Janet "Nice Abdominal Surgery
and getting Run Over for the Family Pet" Boss.
Her results have not been dramatic.

CrAzy ReGulAr helping CraZy ReGular
Leah helping Nessa
=============================

On Fri, 7 Jun 2002 8:40:08 -0400, Leah wrote

Nessa use...@nessa.info wrote:

"As far as the depression goes,
it's not related to Bagel at all.
I have chronic major depression and
I'm just having a flare."

Leah asks
"Are you on any medication?"

Nessa responds

yes for depression, mood swings and ADHD.
I have been for over 10 years.

--nessa

Nessa is Fat as well as crazy

=============================
"For what it's worth...

I picked up 30 pounds when I started
Dilantin. I picked up (just recently) another
20 on risperidol.

I hate that I was a size 8-10 before meds and
now I am solidly (pun intended) a 22-24.

Sad part is, the side effects are worth it.
The positive effects
are too much to part with."

--nessa
============================

NESSA'S HAS A GREAT NEUROPSYCH

==============================

Hi, I have a great neuropsych in Arlington Va.
He is at the Rosyln Metro Station. His name is
Martin Stein
1911 N Fort Myer Dr.
Suite 907
Arlington Va 22209
703-807-2471
email 75120.2...@compuserve.com

Marty is wonderful. He is really the best.
He has also given me permission to post his
infomation on this Newsgroup. If you call
him and see him by all means tell him Nessa
sent you.

--nessa
================================

ROTATE YOUR STIMULANTS

=============================

from: Nessa (n...@ix.netcom.com)

Hi,

I often have to rotate my stimulants.
You can become used to them and sometimes
need a different one for a while. Until I
got on my Desoxyn I rotated Ritilan and
Dexedrine every 3 months or so.

It is true that anti-depressants or
anti-anxiety pills will help with the
stimulants so your DR is not wrong. However,
perhaps she needs to check into the idea that
a switch from cylert to something else might
be in order.

warm thoughts,
Nessa
=============================

=============================================
=============================================

Lois E.
(of Gary and Lois fame)

Lois' has been on tricyclic antidepressants for
approximately 25 years. This may be a record.
Husband is a cop but there is no evidence
that he beats the crap out of her, or that he
has for 25 years.

Had a traumatic experience as a child with a
horse running wild in the Pantry and living room.
In recent years, shot neighbor's dog from point
blank range while it was chewing on her pigmy goat,
teaching son to solve problems with the neighbor's
using shock and awe levels of violence."

BEEN ON TRICYCLICS FOR ABOUT 22 YEARS

"I don't take lithium, but I've been on trycyclics
for about 22 years. Been there, done that, have
the t-shirt to prove it. What's really terrific,
is now days you can say proudly,
"I take anti-depressives". Back when I started
taking them it was seen as something shameful.
If you cut your leg off, and were lying there with
a bleeding stump, you'd never let the word
depressed, pass your lips, or the doc's would say,
"You're depressed, on medication? Well, can't have
any pain meds.....you could become addicted." The
good old days. I actually had a Great Aunt who's
father locked her in her room back in the twenties
because she was simple. A shame that medication
probably would have helped her live a normal life.
No Denna, I was just saying with Darlene's
personality, she has a way of making grandiose
plans when at the top of her manic cycle....as
does my daughter. I wasn't saying that anyone
with problems could be counted on to be
irresponsible."

Lois E.

=============================================
=============================================

Kelly/
culprit

Systems engineer at Microsoft, owner of two
pitbulls, proving that Bill Gates does not
discriminate against crazy people or pit bull
owners.

psychotic features, panic and more. Coming
forward so that others like her will have the
strength to do the same. Like Charlie Wilkes,
she is one of our most entertraining regulars

Here, kelly/culprit talks to Mustang Sally
about her mental illness/crazy problems.
Sally is being rude and condescending (as usual)
and trying to make kelly/culprit feel bad for
being crazy, aka wacked in the head

culprit standing up for herself against rude and condescending Mustang
Sally
-----------------------------------------------

I WON'T DENY MY PROBLEMS, MUSTANG SALLY!

"but i stand by the fact that OCD is an
illness, major depression with psychotic features
certainly is, panic disorder is too. and the
other stuff just makes it all the more fun.

i don't wallow in it. i'm just now learning to
accept it, because ignoring it wasn't working out
too well. i need to do that to make changes to my
life so that i can become healthy. and you say
you're not trying to be condescending, but you're
doing it again. what i read was, (my paraphrasing)
"people who think they're mentally ill are
wallowing in their disabilities and letting them
consume their life"

you come across as though you would be able to
handle any of these illnesses, and anyone who
can't is just copping out. well we're all
different. and i don't accept your idea that i
would have a more productive life if i denied my
problems. i tried it for years, and believe me,
it didn't work very well."

-kelly aka culprit
systems engineer @ Microsoft
----------------------------------------------

=============================================
=============================================

MaryBeth FMVP (former most valuable psycho)

(super psycho bitch lunatic queen of the
mentally fucked in the head)

Has contributed greatly to the annual profit
results at several large pharmaceutical corps
has taken virtually every mentally ill (crazy)
drug treatment in the book, and then some:
prozac, zoloft, amitryptiline, Buspar, Xanax,
effexor, paxil, HRT, wellbutrin, tranquilizers,
clomid,

MaryBeth has suffered from or been:

TIDAL WAVES OF PMS

suicidal, agoraphobic, tidal waves of PMS,
mood swings, turned into a hermit, bloated,
just real angry, hubby afraid of her, high
blood pressure, divorced, "raving bitch"
"zoloft zombie" for four years, "living
through layers and layers of gauze," chain
smoker, buzzing, weight gain, fatigue,
terrible dry mouth, dull headaches, fuzzy
brain, lack of concentration..etc.
severe depression, severe insomnia, Panic
ALL the time, crying, not sleeping, you name
it...etc...

MaryBeth (on being seriously f'd in the head
aka mentally ill) aka cuckoo! kuckoo! ding! ding! ding!
aka a superpsychotic bitch from hell

I RAN OVER EVERYONE IN MY PATH

"I know for a fact I went thru years of
being overly sensitive, being a b*tch,
being self centered, being self pitying,
you name it, I was a wreck and I ran over
everyone in my path."

"<G> I do know the power of meds, especially
on a long term basis, and it's not pretty.
You become another person, if it's not the
correct med for you.

--All the best,
MaryBeth

DON'T TAKE ULTRAM AND ZOLOFT TOGETHER

"Yup Diane, I am taking Zoloft, and my
Rheumatologist told me that taking
Ultram with it can cause seizures."

"I have all the symptoms.I am suicidal at
times (cyclical) have severe insomnia,
'crawly' skin etc. I have an appt to see
my doc next Friday to test for menopause."

--MaryBeth

ME NOT SO HORNY

"I noticed that antidepressants cut libido
into the dead zone and I had no real emotions,
like not laughing at funny stuff, couldn't cry
either.....except about my suicidal thoughts
(but at the time I thought there was no other
way out)."

--MaryBeth

NEW TO GROUP

"Hi, new to group, just starting Clomid today.
I talked with RE and pharmacist re: zoloft (50
mg daily) and ineraction with Clomid. They
reported none. Not sure about the prozac tho.
Gonna poat a new message to intorduce
myself :)"

--MaryBeth <still feeling
like herself> <G>

WASTED 10 YEARS

"I wasted about 10 years of my life, and lost
many many treasured ppl and things. Please
don't do the same. (((((((SCOUT))))))))))

--MaryBeth

WAS HORRIBLE

"Slowly but surely my depression got worse and
worse. They put me on meds for it, and all
along kept telling me to wait on the TKR, as
'it really wasn't that bad.....yet". HA!"
The depression got so bad, and lots of other
things happened and my ex and I would up
divorced four years after our move. It was
horrible. The hardest thing I have eve gone
thru"

--MaryBeth

=============================================
=============================================

Theresa Willis

(paxil, depression, robot displacement)
Theresa is a gang banger who comes out
of cutesy robot mode when it's time to
gang attack people with her pal shelly
Victim is usually Leah, but may be a
random person.

=============================================
=============================================

shelly
couvrette

OUR NEWEST MVP (MOST VALUABLE PSYCHOTIC)

All in the Mental Family

shelly: severe OCD
shelly's mom: chronic depression
shelly's brother: severe BiPolar

Severe OCD, depression, prescribed Paxil
for mental illness, but claims she does
not take it, resulting in an obsessive
basket case online persona. Posts more than
any other female in all dog newsgroups

(familial mental illness, possibly related
to family bed) obsessively starves her
dogs according to friends, family,
strangers and 3 different vets, but
not herself (see below). Still thinks
of herself as a five year old ballerina
despite the fact that she is a fat
adult in her mid thirties.

PAGE ALL THE WAY UP FOR BONUS COVERAGE
NEW, HATTIE DOWN TO 47 POUNDS!!

NEWER, SHELLY GOES KUCKOOO!!! Over
shih tzu's being fed almost as much
as hattie (page to top)

=============================================

Leah

Effexor for chronic depression, in denial
about being mentally ill. Has taken
several other mentally ill medications
before settling on effexor for her
chronic mental problems. Leah is
improving as a dog trainer and wants
to open her own training/boarding
kennel soon and write a book.

This drives her fellow
mentally ill regulars nuts (read shelly
Lynn K.), especially if Leah succeeds
while other loonies continue to sit on
their fat behinds

Leah is a relatively stable crazy person
but she just might be the agent that drives
others to jump off of a cliff

NEW, Leah gets a new job. Switches mental
medication from Effexor to Zyban

=============================================
=============================================

Bethgsd

German Shepherd enthusiast Bethgsd is
taking an unamed SSRI for severe
depression.

Here, Bethgsd, points out to Gwen the
importance of being understanding about
the mental problems of crazy people.

GWEN, GET YOUR HEAD OUT OF YOUR ASS
I SUFFER FROM SEVERE DEPRESSION

"Well, Gwen I suffer from severe depression
which is controlled by a particular SSRI and
I find it insulting that you don't feel that
chemical imbalances can be lifethreatening.
No, I don't go into status but I've attempted
to commit suicide a few too many times. And
no, those weren't little "cries for help"
they were honest to G-D attemts to get out of
the pain.

So get your head out of your ass and realize
that chemical imbalances can be as life
threatening, if in a different way, than
electrical misfiring."

Beth [aka Bethgsd]

=============================================
=============================================

Tara O. aka Tee

UNTIL YOU'VE LIVED WITH THIS DISORDER
YOU CANNOT UNDERSTAND HOW DEVASTATING

Tara O. aka Tee, is in many ways a typical suburban
South Carolinian soccer mom. Upon casual inspection,
nothing appears to be amiss. Tara, aka Tee spends her
free time surfing the internet and is a big fan of the
WB's "Gilmore Girls." Tara is also a passionate member
of the Carolina Boxer Rescue network. The only sign of
controversy or untowardness is that Tara's own Boxer
Summer was suddently put to sleep in October 2001,
despite several offers from an Orlando, FL dog expert
(Jerry Howe) to adopt her, claiming he could easily
cure Summer's behavioral problems.

Looking at Tara today, you'd never know that when she
was a teen, she suffered for five years with the
debilitating mental disorder, known as anorexia.
Tara is now a healthy weighted (some would say
plump) mom in her thirties, but during her teens
Tara O. (along with her Bulimic Friend), looked like
a skeleton.

like so many of the mentally ill before her, Tara O.
is coming forward because she wants to educate those
who come after her. The message Tara is sending is
clear. Mental illness is nothing to be ashamed of.
"We don't have to hide any longer!" she seems to be
saying.

Tara O. aka, Tee attributes her anorexia to
a lack of self esteem, which sprung from peer
pressure and an upbringing that could have been
more nurturing.

Determined that the same fate not befall her daughter
Amie, and out of a belief that no child should have to
follow the same path of self destruction and starvation,
Tara, in graphic and sometimes excruciating detail
relives the drama of how she was bowed and broken by,
but ultimately came back to beat anorexia.

YOU GO (gilmore) Girl!

Tara and Amie's harrowing saga (below) is a cautionary
tale and a must read for all of those, who care deeply
about the future of young girls in America. This is an
issue that affects both young and old, black and white,
male and female all across America.

Tara is doing everything in her power, including
medicating her daughter Amie with Ritalin, so that Amie
does not have to feel the sting of self esteem issues,
brought on by peer pressure courtesy of the cliques of
marauding "mean girls" who prey on young females
struggling to find their way and their indentity during
the precarious and perilous passage from adolescence
to young adulthood. We can only be thankful that Tara
prevailed and lived to tell her story.

We wish Tara O and her daughter Amie nothing but success
in overcoming mental illness and mental disorders. Tara
and Amie, you are an inspiration to us all!

I BATTLED ANOREXIA FOR MOST OF MY TEEN YEARS
WE BOTH LOOKED STICK THIN

Well if you had one and you did it to gain attention
then quite frankly you'd be the first person I have
ever heard of taking that approach. I battled anorexia
for most of my teen years and had a very good
acquaintance who was bulimic and almost died. We both
looked stick thin but could cover the circles around
our eyes with makeup and the colorless, chapped lips
with lipstick. How often did any of us see Diana out
in public during this time with no makeup on as well
as up-close & personal?

--
Tara
Carolina Boxer Rescue

Page to the top for more...

=============================================
=============================================

Paula

OUR FIRST CRAZY MORMON

Paula is a divorced Mormon Mom who dabbles freely
in Kibology, leaving herself at risk for being
Smite into a pile of rubble by either an angry,
vengeful God or worse yet, a Kibo unglued.

As a California based youth counselor, Paula
helps children deal with physical & emotional
problems while dealing with mental problems of
her own. Particularly chronic depression for
which she is drugged.

Paula has a long history of questioning her
faith, questioning her mother and worrying about
whether or not she'll be excommunicated for the
thoughts in her head. With good reason, after
spending so much time fraternizing with free
thinking, blaspheming Kibologists.

At one point, when Paula was suffering from a
heavy bout of depression, and in violation of
Mormonology and her mother's own advice, she
eschewed prayer and instead enlisted the heelp of
Harco Industries own twillis, who cruelly
flaunted her vaunted Paxil supply

"Sorry, go ride a horse, hands off my
Paxil."
says HARCO's twillis

WON'T SHARE MY PAXIL WITH PAULA

From: HarCo Industries (tdwil...@earthlink.net)
Subject: Re: I need
Newsgroups: alt.religion.kibology
Date: 2003-05-13 09:48:41 PST

mmmtobler...@earthlink.ent (Paula) wrote

> I need something to get me out of this
> deepening depression.

I prescribe a horseback ride.

Really.

I'd share my Paxil with you, but I'm selfish.

twillis

To which Paula responded:

THE PAXIL IS NOT ENOUGH

"HAH! Paxil stopped working for me
and I had to switch to Celexa, for the
really and truly messed up!"

Paula

Page to the top for much more on
this mental case

=============================================
=============================================
Tara Green

Tara Green is a dog trainer of sorts in New York
City left rpd* claiming that she could
not afford internet access and/or a computer,
but her story is of value nonetheless

was on antidepressants for a few years
prior to her marriage. During her
marriage, she learned a lot:
"With the therapist I saw during my
marriage I learned that some
situational depressions are masked as
chemical simply because of our too human
ability to prolong the impact of the
causal situations indefinitely"

Sounds like more denial, see leah

Tara is also a drunk who has also had
problems with other substances

TARA on being a drunk/substance abuser:

"Tara (who had some problems with quite a
few substances as well, but who thinks they
are separate issues.....so which camp does
that put me in???)"

"Believe it or not, some people don't have
a problem with drugs even though they are
alcoholics. I'm not one of those people,
but they do exist."

aka, tara has problems with both

=============================================
=============================================

Kevin
Michael
Vail

various mental illness drugs, started with
zoloft, didn't like that, then went to
antidepressant, stopped after sufficent
side effects, now on SSRI and in therapy
Kevin is a homosexual but there is no
evidence that this is the cause of him
being crazy

=============================================
=============================================

Furpaw

(SSRI, cognitive therapy)
otherwise, a fairly boring
and nondescript crazy person

=============================================
=============================================
=============================================

Charlie
Wilkes

drugged out, crazy, fucked up all his
life, Christ the shit he's been through
including psych wards and electroshock
treatments but now pulling down major cash
as a business consultant. Triumphing over
adversity, with a damn good life and a
well trained dog. One of our most lucid
regulars, despite (or maybe because of?)
a penchant for phat philly blunts.

=============================================
=============================================

Karen
DuChateaux
aka Karibear

suffered from clinical depression for years
until some drug or something brought her out
of it. Some of her best friends "are
certifiable" and have various degrees of
psychoses. Familial mental disability.
Refuses to say whether or not she is
currently using drug or cognitive therapy
for mental illness.

=============================================
=============================================

Mike
"DumbOxDumb"
Dufort

threatened non violent dog expert Jerry Howe
with Mike's fully armed US Army Platoon.
Threatened to bring his platoon to Jerry's
HOWSE. also OCD (obsessed with Jerry's posts)

=============================================
=============================================

Jim "Brain
Shivers"
Sabatke

Jim is currently on Effexor which he takes
because of his depression/mental problems.
Like many of our mental cases, Jim has had
trouble finding the right med(s) to keep him
from going kuckoo!! kuckoooo!!! or getting
the "brain shivers"

From: Jim Sabatke (jsaba...@execpc.com)
Subject: Re: anyone using Effexor?
alt.support.depression.medication
Date: 2002-11-29 20:25:16 PST

EFFEXOR
"I'm on 375 mg/day and it has worked
wonders for me. The only down side is
that my blood pressure has elevated
somewhat; oh and if I miss a dose by a
couple of hours the "brain shivers" can
be really bad.

Good luck!

Jim

"I switched from Paxil to Effexor about
5 months ago. I tapered off of the Paxil
and tapered onto the Effexor at the same
time."

Jim

"After several years on Effexor IR, my
pdoc tried switching me to XR. I
experienced fairly severe Effexor
withdrawel until I went back to the IR."

Jim

=============================================

SHELLY DETHRONES NESSA AS OUR NEW MVP (most
valuable psychotic) Nessa loses MVP title
due to inactivity so shelly takes over by default)

ALL NEW as of 9/19/2004
A SPECIAL BONUS ON shelly couvrette,

All in the Mental Family

shelly: severe OCD
shelly's mom: chronic depression
shelly's brother: severe BiPolar

shelly's dogs are victims of Munchausens
Anorexia by proxy Syndrome. Here, she goes
off the deep end because she OCD'd on a
conversation she overheard about the quantity
of food being fed to her coworker's son's
shih tzus.

hattie, shelly's starving boxer (who,
theoretically, if she was not being
systematically starved by a psychotic
owner) should weigh at least five times
more than a shih tzu, yet she doesn't
get five times as much food. She
doesn't even get twice as much.

Can you say "KUCKOOOO!!!"

IT DRIVES ME CRAZY THAT MY COWORKER'S SON
DOESN'T STARVE HIS DOG

SHIH TZUS EATS MORE THAN HALF AS MUCH AS
HATTIE

one of my cow-orkers was just on the phone
with her son.....

and, get this! the were discussing feeding
amounts. her Shih Tzus eat more than half
as much as my dogs! i don't know if that's
because Iams is less calorically dense than
the foods my dogs eat or what, but i'm
boggled. *boggled*, i tell ya'.

so, anyway, i've bitten my tongue nearly
in half.

-- shelly (perfectly foul wench) and
elliott and harriet

EMACIATED, VET WAS SURPRISED

"when i got harriet she was emaciated, so
i asked my vet for advice on slowly adding
weight to her. six months later i took
harriet in for her spring check-up and my
vet was surprised that at how thin she still
was."
--shelly couvrette

STILL VET SHOPPING

"<raises hand> i've been told by three
different vets that harriet (53lbs) is
*way* too skinny. we're still vet-shopping,
BTW."

--shelly couvrette

THE OL' "I'M STARVING" ROUTINE

"if you really can't resist it when your dog pulls
the "i'm starving!" routine <G>, you can give
him some frozen green beans or a small amount
of plain pureed pumpkin. i would also suggest
putting the food out of his sight. i keep my
food--still inside the bags, which are tightly
rolled down--inside trash cans in the closed
laundry room. that keeps it fresh and keeps
it out of my dogs' sight."

--shelly couvrette

POSITIVELY STARVED

"heh. i get the opposite response. people think
that poor little harriet is positively starved
to death. i've actually had people stop me in
the pet supply shop and tell me that i need to
fatten her up!"

--shelly couvrette

WHO WANTS TO BE TOLD YOU ARE HURTING YOUR
WIDDLE PRECIOUS?

"i think that may be part of the problem. who
wants to go to a vet who tells you you're
hurting your .widdle precious? i think the
other part is that some vets really don't
*realize* that what they consider proper weight
is fat. after having been told by a couple of
vets that my dogs are too thin, i've got a dim
view of vets on that topic."

--shelly couvrette

JUST A BITE WON'T HURT
--shelly's mom

FEED HER AND I'LL RIP YOUR
ARM OFF, BITCH
-shelly

"my mom is kinda that way, but not *as* bad.
she thinks that harriet is awfully skinny,
so feeding her table snax is okay. she
tells me that just a bite won't hurt."

--shelly couvrette

March 2004, HATTIE DOWN TO 47 POUNDS

"while i was sick,
elliott was *pretty* good (he got really
needy and pathetic toward the end), but
harriet turned into 47lbs of pure
orneriness."

--shelly couvrette

NOBODY IS STARVING SHELLY

NOBODY WILL STOP SHELLY ON THE STREET
AND TELL HER SHE IS STARVING HERSELF
shelly's fat face
http://home.bluemarble.net/~sc ouvrette/Wshelly2.jpg

=======================================================

There are a lot of big fat women on these groups who
starve their dogs out of vanity, but shelly is a
special case.

shelly is more than a little bit beyond the pale

Shelly has OCD, and maybe she's just a little
obsessive about measuring out extra tiny and
discrete portions with a tiny measuring
cup, or counting out pieces of green bean or
pumpkin that she gives her dogs when they give
her the "I'm Starving" routine. When grandma
tried to give Hattie a snack, shelly probably
went apeshit, because it was in violation of
her Obsessive need to oversee every tiny
calorie that goes into her widdle precious'
mouth.

shelly's a special case, a special kind of
dog abuser.

NEWSFLASH

in late september, 2004 shelly left the group
because diddy was a meanie pants to her.
shelly's illness prevented her from seeing
the reality that she was the # 1
meanie pants in the history of the dog
newsgroups. We hope she gets the treatment
she needs.

================
----------------------------

HOWEDY laura,

"Laura" <l...@wordfixers.no> wrote in message
news:QLiZb.936$EV2.7231@amstwist00...

> Diana wrote:

diana is a dog abuser a liar and a mental case.

Like yourself.

> | > if other areas of his obedience are going well,
> | > use that to help you break this habit - if he's
> | > busy performing a command for you, he won't
> | > be busy barking for you.

Yeah. That'll provoke the dog to do it MOORE
cause it'll REWARD his attention gettin devices.

> Lee John Moore wrote:
> | I've tried this too, but have no success.

That's cause lee is a MOOREON.

> | He performs the command but continues to bark.

SEE??? Told ya so!

> Since he's a smart and obedient dog,

Yeah. Smart, obedient, Feisty, Humorous, Brave,
Curious And Playful. Full Of "Joie de Vivre,"

> perhaps you could give him a command

Like the DIE command, laura?

> that precludes barking?

Oh? You must mean the "NO BARK!" command.
Won't work on this Feisty, Humorous, Brave,
Curious And Playful. Full Of "Joie de Vivre, dog.

> Perhaps teach him to sit and hold an object for
> you - dumbbell, glove, rolled newspaper, ball -

Yeah. That'll make him very happy. He WANTS
attention, and that'd be payin him off.

> you could simply carry an item like this in your
> pocket when you go out.

RIGHT. That COULD work... till WON fine
day when IT don't have sumpthin to put in
ITS MHOWETH and then he'll GO NUTS.

> And then Sit! Hold! would produce the
> desired behaviour?

Yeah. Like it did for your DEAD DOG Chewie.

> Just a thought...

Yeah. That's HOWE COME you MUREDERED
your own DEAD DOG Chewie.

> Laura and Angel in Oslo

laura MURDERED her heart dog Chewie just like
HOWE your pal tara o. did her DEAD DOG Summer
as have many of HOWER DOG LOVERS here abHOWETS.

Here's HOWE COME laura KILLED her dog Chewie:

From: Laura Arlov (l...@wordfixers.no)
Subject: Re: Chewie bit my husband !

Date: 1999/01/20

Well, we're doing as you say Dogman,
and I'll keep you all posted.

------------------------------

> Laura in Oslo

You're quite the dog enthusiast, eh laura?

> The listener,

You didn't WANT to listen to The Puppy Wizard when
HE told you you couldn't PUNISH and INTIMIDATE
your dog or you'd make IT aggressive.

> the observer.

NHOWE you got a DEAD DOG HOWETA it.

> We do work were you sometimes have to observe people

Like laura, MURDERING her dog...

> and take notes.

INDEEDY!

> B. has amazing powers of observation and concentration.

RIGHT...

> Laura and Angel in Oslo

"Feisty, Humorous, Brave, Curious And
Playful. Full Of "Joie de Vivre," And DEAD.

Date: 2003-10-29 23:49:52 PST

HOWEDY People,

Here's HOWE COME laura arlov KILLED her "Feisty,
Humorous, Brave, Curious And Playful. Full Of "Joie
de Vivre," And DEAD DOG Chewie:

From: Dogman (dog...@i1.net)
Subject: Re: Dogman advocates dogs biting people
Date: 1999/04/25

While I was listening to the Miles Davis CD, "Kind Of
Blue," and drinking a little Booker's, on 24 Apr 1999
22:47:09 GMT, brokens...@aol.com (Brokenseat) wrote:

> Was that a SERIOUS ENOUGH bite for you dogman,
> or was it insignificant? Why would you suggest getting
> a book or obediance, is there no bite SERIOUS enough
> for you?

Yes, there are, but this one was *caused* by the actions
of a very, very STUPID human being, someone much like
yourself.

And it only hapopened ONCE.

And there are many, many dogs out there today
living perfectly normal and honorable lives who,
upon having done to them what was done to
this dog ("Chewie"), would also bite.

I mean, how stupid can one person get?

Don't answer that yet, Broke, you're setting a new
record almost everyday.

Here's what the owner's husband did (and precisely
what caused the bite), just in case you forgot:

> (My husband was holding Chewie's head and looking
> him in the eye and yelling at him, and Chewie growled
> louder and louder and louder and then bit my husband.)

I wonder just how many dogs out there wouldn't at
least be tempted to bite some stupid idiot for doing
that to him?

I include below the entire post for viewers reading
pleasure, and so they can take everything I said in
its proper *context.*

PS: I'd be willing to wager a large amount of money
that this particular dog will never bite this guy again,
provided:

1.) The family gives this dog some OBEDIENCE training.

2.) The guy refrains from doing really STUPID things to the dog.

3.) The guy PARTICIPATES in the training.

4.) They have a professional ASSESS the dog.

Putting this dog down simply for doing the above is
UNCONSCIONABLE.

This dog needs to be assessed, in person, by a knowledgeable
trainer/behaviorist before any action is even considered.

>>>> Now yesterday morning, Chewie lost his temper with my
>>>> husband and bit him, hard. (Deep puncture, lots of blood,
>>>> docot visit, tetanus shot, antibiotics, the whole shooting
>>>> match)

>>> Dogman's words of wisdom:
>>> You need to get a book on recognizing animal
>>> behavior ***(I have some listed on my web site)***,
>>> and you need to get your husband (and children, if
>>> they're old enough) involved in the OBEDIENCE
>>> training of this dog.
>>> WRONG. You need to cull. Do not give that dog a
>>> second chance to bite someone and draw blood
>>> another time, like your childs face...
>>> Broke Egoman and his dangerous advice should be ignored.

Doofuses are always welcome to ignore my advice,
after all, that's why they remain doofuses, eh?

********************

Beginning of the actual post, before Broke selectively snipped:

Upon my return to the Cuckoo's Nest,
Tue, 19 Jan 1999 22:22:09 ?,

"Laura Arlov" <l...@wordfixers.no> says:

[...]

>We have an 18 month old male Airedale Terrier,
>Chewbacca (Chewie). He's entire -- and I might as well
>tell you right now it's not legal to neuter male dogs in
>Norway for anything other than medical reasons, so he'll
> probably be staying that way.

That's too bad, because neutering might help (of course,
it might not help, either).

FYI, 95% of stallions (horses) in America are neutered.

That's right, only 5% of horses are responsible for breeding.

Why?

Have you ever been on a ranch or farm where there
were a lot of stallions living together?

If you had, you'd understand why 95% of them get
their *tools* taken away at an early age!

The same thing goes for dogs to a great extent.

>Now yesterday morning, Chewie lost his temper with my
>husband and bit him, hard. (Deep puncture, lots of blood,
>docot visit, tetanus shot, antibiotics, the whole shooting match)
>I have no trouble seeing how this incident is a result
>of Chewie's age and hormones, and mistakes that we
>have made.

> He's our first dog. before we got him I read that Airedale
> males could be a pretty tough proposition, so I've been
> working actively with Chewie and settring limits for him
> all his life, and he respects me.

But he doesn't respect your hubbie, does he?
Otherwise this would never have happened.

You're right, Airedales are TOUGH dogs, just like
virtually any *terrier.*

>My son and husband mostly pet him and play with him.

That's part of your problem I think. Your husband has
fallen in the pecking order to an EQUAL. That is, your
dog sees your husband as an equal, perhaps even an
inferior, and that's what the growling, etc., were all about.

> Now that Chewie is trying to improve his position
> in our family flock by defying my husband, my husband
> is all of the sudden trying to put his foot down and discipline
> Chewie...

This putting-down-of-the-foot cannot take place quickly.
It will have to develop over time.

But the best way to accelerate it is to have your husband
start to take over the OBEDIENCE training of your dog,
and he needs a lot more of it, Laura.

No dog of mine would ever even think about growling
at me, much less ever bite me. Or any member of my
family, the dog's pack.

Because I've made them all realize, early on, that all
humans are higher in status to them.

And their OBEDIENCE training is *ongoing,* therefore
it's constantly reinforced.

Dogs ABHOR leadership vacuums!

> (My husband was holding Chewie's head and looking
> him in the eye and yelling at him, and Chewie growled
> louder and louder and louder and then bit my husband.)

You need to get a book on recognizing animal behavior
(I have some listed on my web site), and you need to get
your husband (and children, if they're old enough) involved
in the OBEDIENCE training of this dog.

Otherwise you're likely to have *much* more serious
problems down the road.

> So, we did exactly what the experts on this ng usually
> advise: we called a really good dog training organization
> (where Chewie and I did basic training) and they will be
> sending one or maybe two instructors to observe as all
> at home, help us to understand our dog, and help us with
> home routines and training to straighten this out.

This will really help, I'm sure. They'll want to observe
and understand your pack's "dynamics."

Then they can show you some things that will allow
your husband to assume a more dominant role in the
dog's pack.

> While we're waiting for our first appointment, we're
> supposed to write down our own impressions of Chewie's
> behavior both around the bite and otherwise. And it is clear
> that he feels he came out of the encounter "a bigger man."

You bet. That's why an ounce of PREVENTION is
always worth a pound of CURE.

Especially when it comes to reinforcement of canine behavior.

> Yesterday and today he has gone nuts in the backseat
> of the car when somebody walked by with a male dog...
> and when he pees, he lifts his leg so high he fell over
> twice today.

Yup. This dog needs some intensive OBEDIENCE
training, in my opinion.

But it usually takes an on-site OBSERVATION to
make an accurate assessment of your situation.

> I feel pretty badly about this...sad, I guess. He's a
> great little dog.

He's not so "little," eh?

> Feisty, humorous, brave, curious and playful. Full of
> "joie de vivre" Not outstandlingly intelligent, but shrewd.
> Charming, when he wants to be. I feel like he's really
> blotted his copy books seriously, and I sure see how a
> lot of the responsibility for this is ours.

You're got the right attitude, Laura. Almost all canine behavior
"problems" are created (and reinforced) by us humans.

>Stay tuned, and see how it goes as we try to straighten out this
>dog -- and, maybe more importantly, his owners!

I will, and I hope you will, indeed, let us know how this works
out!

Good luck!

--

Dogman
dog...@i1.net

Dogman's Den
http://www.i1.net/~dogman

"One four minute session of obedience work,
done properly, will prevent behavior problems
for 48-72 hours. It's in the manual."
Jerry "Moonbeam" Howe

From: m i cha el <"m ich ael_at dogtv dot com">
Date: Tue, 19 Jul 2005 00:24:00 -0400
Subject: Re: For Handsome Jack Morrison: Collars - (MENTAL NEWS)

Paula wrote:
> On Mon, 18 Jul 2005 16:29:48 -0500,
> shelly <scouvre...@bluemarble.net> wrote:

>>on 2005-07-18 at 21:09 <mmmtobler...@earthlink.ent> wrote:
>>> Interesting that it comes from "Your Conscience" and starts
>>> with HOWE speak and yet ends with "Lucy" talking about Jerry
>>> and signed by "Lucy."

>> that, and Lucifer who just happened to show up today, xposting
>> Howespew to kingdom come and back again.

> I can understand that. When his meds are working better, he wants to
> say some of the same things without looking like a complete lunatic
> and an ass and maybe clean up the image of that other Jerry. So up
> pops someone to say well, he's kind of odd, but his ideas are great!
> Apparently, he has been skipping a few doses here and there again and
> is on his way back to psycho only.

Well... We don't really know whether or not Jerry uses
meds, but we know you do!

How are your meds treating you?

=============================

This has been a production of
dogtv.com networks
your world leader in dog entertraining

this marks the end of the rec.pets.dogs.* crazy person list

----------------------------------------------------

copyright 2004
dogtv.com networks

you are free to reproduce this list for
group harmony purposes

--
this is michael
the voice of reason
reporting live...
http://dogtv.com

(Oh, an pardon The Amazing Puppy Wizard for TOP
POSTIN, Soup. It's NOT a symptom of dominance
HOWEver, it's MOORE like laziness.)

[Amy Dahl]

"Paul E. Schoen" wrote:

>
> She also suggested that I give Muttley a bath with flea soap or shampoo,
> and then apply the Frontline about two days later. I have had Muttley since
> mid February and have not yet given him a bath. So, I got some flea shampoo
> and tried to get Muttley to get into the bathtub, but he would not. Even
> when I got into the tub, he would not come in with me, so the best I could
> do was splash some water on him and try to brush him a bit. Certainly not
> satisfactory.
>

I use Frontline without bathing the dogs. It is supposed to spread in the
oil on their skin. It is plenty effective for me. If you can't give Muttley
a bath easily, I suggest you just apply the Frontline and not worry about it.

Amy Dahl

[pfoley]

"Paul E. Schoen" <pst...@smart.net> wrote in message

news:44efe367$0$15480$ecde...@news.coretel.net...

==================
Take the dog to a groomer and have them bathe and groom the dog. Tell them
the dog has fleas. Then buy some Frontline Plus from your Vet and use that
once a month.
----------------------------------
>
>

[shelly]

Paul E. Schoen wrote:
> She said it was much
> better than the Hatz product I applied around the first of August, and
> apparently there have been lawsuits against Hartz about their product.

I had a cat nearly killed (he suffered permanent CNS damage) from a
cat-specific flea treatment manufactured by Hartz Mountain.
According to my vet, this was not by any means an isolated incident.
I haven't used a Hartz Mountain product since then, nor would I
recommend their products to others.

In dealing with your flea problem, remember that fleas spend only a
small amount of time on the dog. It is important to treat the home,
yard, etc. as well. Your vet should be able to provide, or at least
give you the names of, appropriated products.

> She also suggested that I give Muttley a bath with flea soap or shampoo,
> and then apply the Frontline about two days later. I have had Muttley since
> mid February and have not yet given him a bath. So, I got some flea shampoo
> and tried to get Muttley to get into the bathtub, but he would not. Even
> when I got into the tub, he would not come in with me, so the best I could
> do was splash some water on him and try to brush him a bit. Certainly not
> satisfactory.

I should think not. I don't know how big Muttley is, but did you
try picking him up and placing him in the tub? I wouldn't leave the
"to bathe or not to bathe" decision up to him, if it were me.

If you cannot lift him, I would recommend bathing him outside with
warm water (you can buy a very cheap hose adapter for your sink
wherever waterbed accessories are sold). If he is not cooperative,
make sure to restrain him.

Your only other alternative is to pay someone to bathe him for you.

> I do have an outside hose, but it is cold water with very high pressure.
> Also, where it is located there is mostly dirt and no sidewalk or patio, so
> I can just see him rolling in the mud if I try to bathe him there.

Who is in charge at your house, and why would you allow him to do
that?

--
Shelly (Warning: see label for details)
http://www.cat-sidh.net (the Mother Ship)
http://esther.cat-sidh.net (Letters to Esther)

[Amy Dahl]

shelly wrote:

>
> In dealing with your flea problem, remember that fleas spend only a
> small amount of time on the dog. It is important to treat the home,
> yard, etc. as well.

I have heard this said many times since I first started taking
responsibility for dog and cat care. While eggs, pupae, and
larvae live elsewhere than on the dog, I don't believe in the
"jump on, bite the dog, jump off" scenario. My observations
suggest fleas spend a lot of time on the animal (dog or cat).
Infested or "weakened" individuals can have clusters of fleas
that seem to stay in a small area.

If your home is infested, one of the newer treatments that
contains hormones that prevent the development of flea
larvae is a good idea. It will not appear to act immediately,
as adult fleas can continue to emerge from pupae for a year
or more.

Since the advent of Frontline, however, I have quit treating
the house and kennel. We just have no fleas. My vet contends
that there is no benefit of the "Plus" ingredients, since they act
on larvae which are not on the dog or cat. She sells the plain
Frontline; I use it, and it's extremely effective.

My vet also says it's better *not* to bathe a dog prior to applying
Frontline, as it will remove most of the oil which helps the
product spread. One of the keys to effectiveness, I have found,
is to put the stuff on slowly, so that as much as possible goes
on the skin rather than forming a big pool of liquid that wets
the hair.

Amy Dahl

[shelly]

Amy Dahl wrote:

> I have heard this said many times since I first started taking
> responsibility for dog and cat care. While eggs, pupae, and
> larvae live elsewhere than on the dog, I don't believe in the
> "jump on, bite the dog, jump off" scenario. My observations
> suggest fleas spend a lot of time on the animal (dog or cat).
> Infested or "weakened" individuals can have clusters of fleas
> that seem to stay in a small area.

I've seen infestations of fleas where you could actually them
hopping around on the furniture and carpets. With that sort of
infestation, there's no way that the number of fleas in the
environment could possibly spend most of their time on the animal.

> Since the advent of Frontline, however, I have quit treating
> the house and kennel. We just have no fleas.

That has been my experience. I haven't seen a flea since Elliott
was a puppy (~12 years ago). He came to me infested. After that
initial problem was taken care of, fleas have been a non-issue on
all of my dogs and cats.

One thing my former vet advised, once the flea infestation was under
control, was to rotate the application of flea topicals from one pet
to the next. Her opinion was that treating just one pet in the home
at a time was enough to keep everyone protected. And, the rotation
meant that no single animal was getting treated month after month.

> My vet contends
> that there is no benefit of the "Plus" ingredients, since they act
> on larvae which are not on the dog or cat. She sells the plain
> Frontline; I use it, and it's extremely effective.

I haven't even used Frontline in, I think, 5 years. The only
product I've used lately is amitraz collars for the dog(s). And,
not even that this past year, as it's easy to spot the little SOBs
on a nekkid dog and pluck them off before they've had a chance to
get comfortable.

> My vet also says it's better *not* to bathe a dog prior to applying
> Frontline, as it will remove most of the oil which helps the
> product spread.

That is my understanding. They need sufficient coat oil in order to
work.

> One of the keys to effectiveness, I have found,
> is to put the stuff on slowly, so that as much as possible goes
> on the skin rather than forming a big pool of liquid that wets
> the hair.

I was advised by my vet to apply it to short-haired dogs (Harriet is
a Boxer) in a stripe from between the shoulders to the base of the
tail. I don't know whether that would have affected it's efficacy
against fleas, as I was using it solely for tick control at that point.

[Amy Dahl]

shelly wrote:

>
> I was advised by my vet to apply it to short-haired dogs (Harriet is
> a Boxer) in a stripe from between the shoulders to the base of the
> tail. I don't know whether that would have affected it's efficacy
> against fleas, as I was using it solely for tick control at that point.
>

I have only been able to measure its efficacy against ticks. When
I started using the Frontline, some of the dogs got ticks and we
put amitraz collars on them. As I've improved my technique of
putting it on, we've seen fewer ticks. Last summer I threw away
a bunch of unused amitraz collars that had been sitting around
for years--I haven't needed them.

I do still apply Frontline monthly during tick season. The dogs
swim every day, and I figure exposure to fipronil is preferable
to getting a tick-borne disease.

Amy Dahl

[shelly]

Amy Dahl wrote:

> As I've improved my technique of
> putting it on, we've seen fewer ticks. Last summer I threw away
> a bunch of unused amitraz collars that had been sitting around
> for years--I haven't needed them.

You said you apply Frontline slowly, so that it can soak in. Do you
apply it just between the shoulders, or also at the base of the
tail? (I'm filing this away for eventual hairy-dog acquisition.)

> I do still apply Frontline monthly during tick season. The dogs
> swim every day, and I figure exposure to fipronil is preferable
> to getting a tick-borne disease.

For sure! I'm not phobic about using either chemical. Ticks are
pure evil. I was less than impressed with Frontline as a tick
preventative, though. It worked well the first year I was in the
boonies, but the second year, I found attached ticks. Ugh. It may
well be that the application advice from my vet was bad, though on a
dog like Harriet, it's hard for me to think of how else to apply it.

This has been a very light tick year, so I've only found a couple of
ticks, total. Harriet is light colored and they show up well
against her coat, so I've had no trouble plucking them off before
they've been able to attach. In other circumstances, or with
another dog, I would be using collars or revisiting the Frontline issue.

[pfoley]

"Paul E. Schoen" <pst...@smart.net> wrote in message
news:44efe367$0$15480$ecde...@news.coretel.net...

===============
Years ago someone told me to never use Hartz, but I can't remember the
reason why. I never used it again, though. I don't know if it was because
they tested their product on bunnies' eyes or that it had something
poisonous in it or both.

>

[pfoley]

"Paul E. Schoen" <pst...@smart.net> wrote in message
news:44efe367$0$15480$ecde...@news.coretel.net...

=======
I was also told to never use flea collars. I guess their potency does not
last long, since they get wet in the rain and damp grass and most people
don't replace them , and they can irritate the dog's neck.
>
>

[shelly]

pfoley wrote:

> Years ago someone told me to never use Hartz, but I can't remember the
> reason why.

Years ago, someone told me not to eat Pop Rocks with Pepsi, because
it made Mikey's stomach explode.

> I never used it again, though. I don't know if it was because

You don't know why you never used it again? Lordy!

> they tested their product on bunnies' eyes or that it had something
> poisonous in it or both.

Please, sir, check your facts before posting nonsense to the Usernets.

[pfoley]

"shelly" <she...@cat-sidh.net> wrote in message
news:4lb7pmF...@individual.net...

-------------
A Rottweiler group sent me to a web page regarding the dangers of using it;
why would I risk using it if there was a question regarding its safety? A
normal person would use what the vet recommends, which in my case right now
is Frontline Plus; so far no side effects and no ticks and no fleas;
probably a good idea to use that product over Hartz.
------------------

[shelly]

pfoley wrote:

> A Rottweiler group sent me to a web page regarding the dangers of using it;
> why would I risk using it if there was a question regarding its safety?

Why would you post nebulous, meaningless, second-hand warnings?

> A
> normal person would use what the vet recommends, which in my case right now
> is Frontline Plus; so far no side effects and no ticks and no fleas;
> probably a good idea to use that product over Hartz.

Too bad that's not what you said in the first place.

[pfoley]

"shelly" <she...@cat-sidh.net> wrote in message

news:4lbeiqF...@individual.net...

============
Gees , what a creep, are you just following me around to be even more
annoying as we know you can be?
---------------

[shelly]

pfoley wrote:

> Gees , what a creep, are you just following me around to be even more
> annoying as we know you can be?

Yeah, I'm stalking you and Amy and Paul.

[Paul E. Schoen]

"shelly" <she...@cat-sidh.net> wrote in message

news:4lat4tF...@individual.net...

Thank you all for your good information and suggestions. Muttley is just
too big and powerful for me to pick him up and put him in the tub, and he
is not so well trained that he will do whatever I say. That is another
reason why perhaps he should have another home with a more dominant owner.

Today I took him for a hike with a group of people from the Sierra club,
and he was fairly good, but in the first mile or so he was alternating from
stopping to sniff and pulling hard on his "choker" collar. I stopped
several times to calm him down and relieve pressure on his neck, but he
resumed his poor leash manners. Finally, at a tricky stream crossing, I
felt it would be dangerous for me to attempt a steep descent while trying
to control Muttley, so I went back. He was much more docile on the return,
and actually seemed to heel reasonably well. He was also a bit dehydrated,
so I gave him some water and took him home.

Eventually I got up the nerve to give him an outside bath. It was a bit
difficult, but I tied him up to the bumper of my truck, lathered him up
with flea soap, and was able to give him a fairly good bath. He didn't
particularly like it, but he did not put up too much resistance. It
probably would have been better with warm water and less water pressure,
but I got the job done. He did not roll in the mud, and he seemed to enjoy
the toweling and brushing.

He is not completely free of fleas. They are in various places in the house
and outside, and I am trying to apply flea control spray. I can still see
them crawl out of his coat, and then burrow back down to the skin. So, in
his case, the fleas are living on him. They are probably also sometimes
jumping off and finding other targets (like me). I plan to wait about two
days before applying the Frontline, to give his skin oil time to replenish.

I don't think my cat has fleas, but I rarely get a chance to interact with
her while Muttley is around. Now I am going to take Muttley out to a horse
farm where maybe I can let him run free for a while, and maybe play with a
frisbee or a ball. I just hope he will come back and not wander far off.

Thanks,

Paul

[pfoley]

"Paul E. Schoen" <pst...@smart.net> wrote in message

news:44f0c908$0$15496$ecde...@news.coretel.net...

-------
Gee, that Muttley has a good life. I think the more he exercises doing what
you have been doing with him; the easier he will be to manage.
---------------------
>
>

[Handsome Jack Morrison]

On Sat, 26 Aug 2006 18:19:34 -0400, "Paul E. Schoen"
<pst...@smart.net> wrote:

[...]

>Thank you all for your good information and suggestions. Muttley is just
>too big and powerful for me to pick him up and put him in the tub, and he
>is not so well trained that he will do whatever I say. That is another
>reason why perhaps he should have another home with a more dominant owner.

He doesn't need a more dominant owner. He needs a more skilled owner.

>Today I took him for a hike with a group of people from the Sierra club,
>and he was fairly good, but in the first mile or so he was alternating from
>stopping to sniff and pulling hard on his "choker" collar.

That suggests that he's never been suitably trained.

>He was much more docile on the return,
>and actually seemed to heel reasonably well. He was also a bit dehydrated,
>so I gave him some water and took him home.
>
>Eventually I got up the nerve to give him an outside bath. It was a bit
>difficult, but I tied him up to the bumper of my truck, lathered him up
>with flea soap, and was able to give him a fairly good bath. He didn't
>particularly like it, but he did not put up too much resistance. It
>probably would have been better with warm water and less water pressure,

Then why not just take the nozzle off the hose?

[...]

>I don't think my cat has fleas, but I rarely get a chance to interact with
>her while Muttley is around. Now I am going to take Muttley out to a horse
>farm where maybe I can let him run free for a while, and maybe play with a
>frisbee or a ball. I just hope he will come back and not wander far off.

It almost sounds from reading your posts that you hope he'll wander
off.

I hope I'm wrong.

--
Handsome Jack Morrison

"The artists seem more concerned with a culture that won't let gays marry than one
that won't let them live."
http://www.newhousenews.com/archive/lileks082306.html
Another real Marine gets there first:
http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,645195431,00.html
The Point of No Return:
http://www.townhall.com/columnists/ThomasSowell/2006/08/22/point_of_no_return
How To Negotiate With Terrorists:
http://hurricaneharry.blogspot.com/2006/08/how-to-negotiate-with-terrorists.html
Looking for the Will Beyond the Battlefield.
http://makeashorterlink.com/?K1226289D
Melanie Phillips on "Londonistan"
http://hotair.com/archives/2006/08/20/video-melanie-phillips-on-londonistan/
Our kids watch the Muppets. Muslim kids watch this:
http://www.memritv.org/Search.asp?ACT=S5&P1=165#
Do you know what happens when bad behavior is reinforced and rewarded?
http://drsanity.blogspot.com/2006/08/modest-prediction-of-disaster.html
Five Minutes to Midnight:
http://corner.nationalreview.com/post/?q=MTlkNGQwOGJlMGE5YjAzNDRjNmRhMzY0M2ZiMGFkNGI=
The Brink of Madness. A familiar place.
http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=ZDBhMzg5Mzk4NjQ5MjM5OTJhZjRjMWQ4OWMzNDhmMzk=
Obsession: Radical Islam’s War with the West (a must-see movie!):
http://www.obsessionthemovie.com/

[Toni]

"Handsome Jack Morrison" <handsomeja...@gmail.com> wrote in message

>
> Then why not just take the nozzle off the hose?
>

That's what I'm not figuring out. We bathed Wolfhounds outside for years,
and just turned the flow down to avoid blasting 'em. The hose comes from a
faucet somewhere- presumably that faucet has an on/off adjustment.

--
Toni
http://www.irish-wolfhounds.com

[Sandra Mann]

so I guesss cat wins and dog looses what breed is Muttley .
"Paul E. Schoen" <pst...@smart.net> wrote in message
news:44efe367$0$15480$ecde...@news.coretel.net...

[Paul]

Sandra Mann wrote:
> so I guesss cat wins and dog looses what breed is Muttley .

Yes. I've had Photon for about six years now, and I've been taking care
of Muttley for about six months. When I took him to the horse farm the
owner was able to make him obey fairly well, and she remarked that he
is smart, but stubborn. He was OK with their cat until she ran off, and
then he wanted to give chase.

Muttley seems to be part German Shepherd, and part Chow, but I would
not be surprised if he also had some boxer and/or pit bull. He weighs
probably 60-70 lb. I would not have taken on the responsibility of
caring for him, but he would otherwise have been put down. Now I am
very attached to him and know he is a really good dog, but he is
creating a difficult environment for my cat. I am stepping up my
efforts to find him a good home.

Paul

[Paul]

Toni wrote:
> "Handsome Jack Morrison" <handsomeja...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> >
> > Then why not just take the nozzle off the hose?
> >
>
>
>
> That's what I'm not figuring out. We bathed Wolfhounds outside for years,
> and just turned the flow down to avoid blasting 'em. The hose comes from a
> faucet somewhere- presumably that faucet has an on/off adjustment.
>
>

The outside faucet is connected directly to the municipal water line,
before the pressure regulator inside the house. It is great for washing
cars but a bit too much for dog washing. I backed off on the valve (an
old freeze-proof handle type), which reduces the flow, but I have a
trigger nozzle and the pressure builds up when it is off. It is on my
list of projects to install a hose bib from the inside plumbing. I did
not want to leave the water running continuously because it would make
more of a muddy mess.

Paul

[Sandra Mann]

you can get training tools to keep Muttley out of some places in your house
got to http://www.petsafe.net/ they have a instant wireless fence for
indoor use my cat loves it she has rooms were Jack my lab cant get to her
the system is based on static shock trust me it will not hurt the dog he may
not like it at first but will learn .I have my yard and 3 rooms using this
system . Jack is a better with the cat since she clawed him in the face a
few times dogs and cats can learn to live together . as for bathing train
him to get in the tub the flee control your vet recommended does work . I do
hope you can keep him dogs and cat can learn to live together it takes time
patience training and love
good luck
sandy
"Paul" <pst...@smart.net> wrote in message
news:1156656806.8...@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...

[Shelly]

On 26 Aug 2006 22:33:26 -0700, "Paul" <pst...@smart.net> wrote:

>Now I am
>very attached to him and know he is a really good dog, but he is
>creating a difficult environment for my cat.

I believe you've said that the reason you won't take him to obedience
class is that you don't have the time. It strikes me that you'd have
*more* time, and that time would be more enjoyable for both of you, if
you invested an hour or two a week into taking a class. You are wasting
a huge amount of time and energy in a constant power struggle with
Muttley.

>I am stepping up my efforts to find him a good home.

Good luck with that. Honestly, who in their right mind is going to want
a large, out of control dog? I believe Diane Blackman pointed out that
you'd be more likely to find him a good home if he has some training.

--
Shelly

http://www.cat-sidh.net (the Mother Ship)
http://esther.cat-sidh.net (Letters to Esther)

I shut my eyes in order to see.
-- Paul Gauguin

[news orange]

I have some experience with big dogs and fleas / ticks as I've been living
in the country between marshes, cereal fields and cow pastures, all three
being sources of parasites.

I don't know about about the place you live in, but in western Europe, the
best product NOW is Frontline because parasites are becoming more and more
resistant to the active ingredient(s) used in collars.

Yes, it is better to apply Frontline without bathing the animal first.
However, a bath a 2 or 3 weeks later won't hurt. At least, you will feel
better with a dog which doesn't stink anymore!

Procedure for using Frontline : the basic idea is to put the product on the
skin (not the hair) and to the prevent the dog from licking itself. So you
choose a place between the shoulders, or behind the head and you push away
the hair till you actually see the skin. Then, you put a drop of product.
Change places and start again.

How to wash a big dog when you are not properly equipped? It's messy and
labour intensive.

1 - choose a sunny and warm day

2 - if the dog doesn't like to be washed, catch him first and tie outside to
a tree, a post...

3 - brush the dog thoroughly. Every hair taken out with the brush is on less
on the sponge or your hands

4 - prepare yourself (boots, waterproof overcoat)

5 - prepare the equipment : specific shampoo, several buckets of warm water,
sponge

6 - if you have a big shaggy dog you will need :

- 1st bucket for wetting thoroughly all parts of the coat including the
underhair

- 2nd bucket for the actual washing with the shampoo

- 3rd, 4th buckets for rinsing

7 - let him shake himself again (he will have done that a few times during
the process, drenching you thoroughly)

8 - wrap him in some old towels and dry him

NB : it is actually better to have 2 people for a big dog as you can have
one person bringing the buckets and one person actually washing him

9 - take him out on a leash and walk a few km so that he can finish drying
without rolling himself in the dirt

In autumn/winter, if you have to wash your dog like this, the best place is
in the garage. There will be water everywhere but it's better than inside
the house.

Flupp

[news orange]

Sorry I forgot.

If the dog was badly infested you can consider that everything he was in
contact with is contaminated. On the day you wash the dog, you should clean
first, then spray everything with some insecticide rated for the dog's
environment.

[Paul E. Schoen]

"Shelly" <she...@cat-sidh.net> wrote in message
news:hj43f21s5rkn5oqqr...@4ax.com...

> On 26 Aug 2006 22:33:26 -0700, "Paul" <pst...@smart.net> wrote:
>
>>Now I am
>>very attached to him and know he is a really good dog, but he is
>>creating a difficult environment for my cat.
>
> I believe you've said that the reason you won't take him to obedience
> class is that you don't have the time. It strikes me that you'd have
> *more* time, and that time would be more enjoyable for both of you, if
> you invested an hour or two a week into taking a class. You are wasting
> a huge amount of time and energy in a constant power struggle with
> Muttley.
>
>>I am stepping up my efforts to find him a good home.
>
> Good luck with that. Honestly, who in their right mind is going to want
> a large, out of control dog? I believe Diane Blackman pointed out that
> you'd be more likely to find him a good home if he has some training.
>

A friend has located some people who may possibly be interested in Muttley.
I have made a flyer which I emailed to her and she has made some copies to
give out. If you would like to see what I have written, including five
photos of the furry critter, I have put it on my webspace as
www.smart.net/~pstech/Muttley3.doc. It is about 1.3 MB or about 8 minutes
on a dialup. I have seen a lot of improvement in his behavior, and I don't
consider him out of control, but others may disagree. Janet Boss
recommended that I take obedience classes with him, but I really hope to
find him another home soon, and I think it would be better for the new
owner to take the class with him.

He really is behaving well, and I would love to keep him if he and Photon
could become buddies, but I don't think that will happen, even with
obedience classes. Muttley was rescued from a life on the streets where he
may have even eaten cats to survive, and Photon is used to surviving
outside where there are foxes, raccoons, and other predators, so she is
naturally very cautious. This is a time of high stress for me and I just
cannot continue with the situation as it is, and it would be best for both
Muttley and me, as well as Photon, for him to be elsewhere.

When I had been caring for him only a couple months, he had been peeing in
the house fairly often, probably as a message to the cat, and it was very
frustrating for me. When he got loose the first time, I wondered if he
would come back, and I will admit that I felt a sense of relief that I
might not need to deal with him any more. That is how stressed I had
become, and although things are much better now, there is still a feeling
that I have taken on too much with him, so I want to find a better home for
him. He seems happy enough here, but I really don't give him the care and
attention he needs and deserves.

If you or anyone you know is interested in adopting my good buddy Muttley,
please contact me. Thanks.

Paul

[pfoley]

"Paul E. Schoen" <pst...@smart.net> wrote in message

news:44f292c2$0$10216$ecde...@news.coretel.net...

-----------------------
Very nice poster; well done; very handsome dog. After reading your poster I
think it would be best to find a person who has more time to spend with
Muttley and has a large yard. I hate to think of the dog tied on a chain
all day alone; that could make the dog go bad. Your description of the
dog's living circumstances and the photos of the dog are very good; it
should work. You could also try finding a Mastiff rescue on line that might
take him and find him a good home. Did you say he was a Mastiff; I can't
remember; he looks like a Mastiff mix to me anyway.
------------------
>

[Janet B]

On Sat, 26 Aug 2006 19:03:49 -0400, Handsome Jack Morrison
<handsomeja...@gmail.com>, clicked their heels and said:

>
>That suggests that he's never been suitably trained.

and if you recall, it was offered by me, and I even met Paul and
Muttley. Can lead a horse to water......

--
Janet Boss
www.bestfriendsdogobedience.com

[Shelly]

On Mon, 28 Aug 2006 02:51:48 -0400, "Paul E. Schoen" <pst...@smart.net>
wrote:

>It is about 1.3 MB or about 8 minutes on a dialup.

I, too, am on dial-up, and there's no way I would download something
that big. That is, even if I had MS Word. Surely there are better ways
to make photos and info of Muttley available on-line?

>I have seen a lot of improvement in his behavior, and I don't
>consider him out of control, but others may disagree. Janet Boss
>recommended that I take obedience classes with him, but I really hope to
>find him another home soon, and I think it would be better for the new
>owner to take the class with him.

In the time you've had him, you could have taken and *finished* an
obedience course. You are being pig headed and short-sighted, which is
your prerogative, but it's poor Muttley who is paying the price.

>If you or anyone you know is interested in adopting my good buddy Muttley,
>please contact me. Thanks.

Sorry, I have *absolutely* no interest in a large, obnoxious, untrained
dog. Nor do I have a whole lot of sympathy for someone who seems bent
on making things worse instead of improving the dog's life and his
chances for finding a good home.

--
Shelly
http://www.cat-sidh.net (the Mother Ship)
http://esther.cat-sidh.net (Letters to Esther)

To emphasize only the beautiful seems to me to be like a mathematical
system that only concerns itself with positive numbers.
-- Paul Klee

[Shelly]

On Mon, 28 Aug 2006 11:49:30 GMT, "pfoley" <pfo...@hotmail.com> wrote:

>Did you say he was a Mastiff; I can't
>remember; he looks like a Mastiff mix to me anyway.

No. He said the dog is most likely a GSD x Chow. I doubt Mastiff
rescue would be interested in working with him. And, any rescue group
that did would likely want Paul to foster the dog while they find it a
home. They'd also, I'm sure, appreciate it if the dog had some basic
manners.

--
Shelly
http://www.cat-sidh.net (the Mother Ship)
http://esther.cat-sidh.net (Letters to Esther)

He uses spit and ashes, he makes them shine with ashes
He knows the use of ashes, he worships God with ashes
-- Pearls Before Swine, The Jeweller

[ceb]

Shelly <she...@cat-sidh.net> wrote in
news:dmb6f2p4strb7djav...@4ax.com:

> Sorry, I have *absolutely* no interest in a large, obnoxious, untrained
> dog.

Queenie says: No interest? None whatsoever? Not even if I rest my chin on
your thigh just like this? What if I show you my nice belly? And gaze up at
you with a big goofy grin?

(Of course, it's not that she hasn't been trained. But sometimes she
doesn't hear so good.)

--
Catherine
& Zoe the cockerchow
& Queenie the black gold retriever
& Max the Pomeranian
& Rosalie the calico

[Handsome Jack Morrison]

On Mon, 28 Aug 2006 10:25:27 -0400, Janet B
<ja...@bestfriendsdogobedience.com> wrote:

>On Sat, 26 Aug 2006 19:03:49 -0400, Handsome Jack Morrison
><handsomeja...@gmail.com>, clicked their heels and said:
>
>>
>>That suggests that he's never been suitably trained.
>
>and if you recall, it was offered by me, and I even met Paul and
>Muttley. Can lead a horse to water......

You met them?

And he declined your services?

[Janet B]

On Mon, 28 Aug 2006 15:11:43 -0400, Handsome Jack Morrison
<handsomeja...@gmail.com>, clicked their heels and said:

>
>You met them?
>
>And he declined your services?

Not on the spot, but he hasn't pursued them either. I swear I bathed
and dressed like a human being that morning (ok, it may have been a
little hot and humid after my puppy class.......). Paul and Muttley
both seemed very nice, and they would surely benefit from classes and
make Muttley more adoptable.

--
Janet Boss
www.bestfriendsdogobedience.com

[Handsome Jack Morrison]

Well, that's too bad.

Muttley would have a much better chance of finding a good home if he
were already well-mannered.

Like you said, you can lead a horse to water....

[Shelly]

On Mon, 28 Aug 2006 18:50:23 +0000 (UTC), ceb <ce...@virginia.edu>
wrote:

>Queenie says: No interest? None whatsoever? Not even if I rest my chin on
>your thigh just like this? What if I show you my nice belly? And gaze up at
>you with a big goofy grin?

That is charmingly manipulative, not large, obnoxious, and untrained.
Charmingly manipulative (heck, even not-so-charmingly manipulative) is
one thing...

>(Of course, it's not that she hasn't been trained. But sometimes she
>doesn't hear so good.)

Harriet, too, sometimes practices convenient deafness. In her case, I'm
afraid it's something I've trained her to do. It's just too damned
funny to watch her stick her nose up in the air and make a big
production of disdaining to acknowledge my presence.

http://cat-sidh.net/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-1221

The thing is, she's learned when she can get away with it and when it is
not okay.

--
Shelly
http://www.cat-sidh.net (the Mother Ship)
http://esther.cat-sidh.net (Letters to Esther)

If you see a tree as blue, then make it blue.
-- Paul Gauguin

[ceb]

Shelly <she...@cat-sidh.net> wrote in
news:i5g6f2lf9jc58pqq6...@4ax.com:

>>(Of course, it's not that she hasn't been trained. But sometimes she
>>doesn't hear so good.)
>
> Harriet, too, sometimes practices convenient deafness. In her case,
> I'm afraid it's something I've trained her to do. It's just too
> damned funny to watch her stick her nose up in the air and make a big
> production of disdaining to acknowledge my presence.
>

The disdainful look is an excellent one. I'm afraid Q's problem is truly
some kind of cognitive impairment. When she gets wound up, she just
can't hear. I *could* outshout her but that just gives me a headache.
She reminds me of a kid with ADHD. She does have enough presence of mind
to try to elude me, however, when I try to grab her. But so does a kid
with ADHD (I know whereof I speak). She can be physically calmed down
and is the better for it afterward.

She's not really obnoxious. But she is a rambunctious handful at times.
She's eager to please me, though, and I find her joie de vivre
delightful, so we get along pretty well.

[Shelly]

On Mon, 28 Aug 2006 20:10:50 +0000 (UTC), ceb <ce...@virginia.edu>
wrote:

>The disdainful look is an excellent one.

She has quite perfected it, no?

>I'm afraid Q's problem is truly
>some kind of cognitive impairment. When she gets wound up, she just
>can't hear. I *could* outshout her but that just gives me a headache.

Ah. That is something many dogs suffer from. When they get focused on
something, their ears just shut off. They are, truly, incapable of
hearing you. Elliott, bless his pointy little head, suffered from that.

>She reminds me of a kid with ADHD. She does have enough presence of mind
>to try to elude me, however, when I try to grab her. But so does a kid
>with ADHD (I know whereof I speak). She can be physically calmed down
>and is the better for it afterward.

Yep. Grabbing hold of the little brat, and restraining him until he
regained control of his brain, was generally effective.

>She's not really obnoxious. But she is a rambunctious handful at times.
>She's eager to please me, though, and I find her joie de vivre
>delightful, so we get along pretty well.

No, she does not strike me as any sort of an obnoxious dog (perish the
thought!). I expect I would be quite smitten with her.

--
Shelly
http://www.cat-sidh.net (the Mother Ship)
http://esther.cat-sidh.net (Letters to Esther)

It is not the form that dictates the color, but the color that brings
out the form.
-- Hans Hoffman

[Paul E. Schoen]

"pfoley" <pfo...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:E24Ig.1694$xQ1...@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net...

>
> "Paul E. Schoen" <pst...@smart.net> wrote in message
> news:44f0c908$0$15496$ecde...@news.coretel.net...
>>

Thank you for your kind remarks and understanding of the situation. It
seems like most others have been very critical, and unwilling to see the
good I have done so far with this dog, and appreciating the effort I have
made, and continue to make, to assure him a better home. He is becoming
easier to manage, and he has learned some obedience, even with the lenient
approach I have been using. He is a very smart dog, and was the alpha dog
in a pack of four surviving in harsh urban conditions, and as such he has a
strong spirit and a mind of his own. I originally helped rescue him from
being put down at the Baltimore City pound, and once again when I took him
to the SPCA, with the understanding that he would be placed in a "no kill"
adoption program, but finding out at the last moment that they were
overloaded with Katrina victims, and he would almost certainly be
euthenized.

I do not claim to be a "dog person", but I do like animals of all kinds. I
have not had a dog of my own since I was in high school, and then he was
taken care of by my parents. We never had to take any of our dogs to
obedience training, probably because we had them since they were very young
and they were very docile. Since that time, I have only had several cats,
and of course they have very different personalities and training methods.
Muttley is the first dog I have had that is so independent-minded and
difficult to train. I have learned some training methods and Muttley has
calmed down quite a bit. He certainly has a much better life than he had
running wild in the city, and he does not have too many obnoxious habits.

His main fault is leash manners. When he gets outside, he immediately
lunges on the leash, and I have to physically restrain him. He seems mostly
very excited to be outside, and he wants to explore every new scent. He is
particularly difficult when he senses that my cat is hiding somewhere. He
responds to my command to "heel", but has a short attention span. He is
getting better, though, and I am learning to be more consistent with him.

His other problematic behavior has been that, when I release him from being
tied outside, he will run down the stairs and find my cat's feeding bowl or
an empty can of cat food, and he will triumphantly carry it to his
downstairs dog bed, and spend a lot of time and effort licking the bowl and
actually chewing on the can. He will also sometimes *carefully* extract
something from the trash can and try to lick out any residue of food it
might contain.

When he wants my attention, he will scratch at my leg with his paw, or put
both paws on the arm of my chair or in my lap. If I am sleeping, he will
fairly carefully jump into bed, and will sometimes settle down after some
hugs and petting, but usually he just needs to go outside. Most of the time
he just sleeps on one of his dog mats, or at my feet, and he is not really
much of a bother. He used to insist on climbing into the bed with me, but
more recently he only does that occasionally. He is allowed essentially
free run of the house, and has not done much mischief. He did "eat" a
rolled up telephone cord, and actually chopped it into small pieces. He did
not seem to suffer any ill effects, but he may have become "more wired" :)

I don't think he will be a real problem for adoption. He is fairly "cool"
toward new people he meets. He does not show any major signs of aggression
toward people or other dogs, and he is even fairly OK with cats unless they
run away, at which point it seems to become a game with him.

I just applied a dose of Frontline to Muttley, and hopefully his flea
problem will diminish. I will also more diligently vacuum the house and
apply flea spray as required. Hopefully I will soon find someone who can
give Muttley the proper home and love he needs. He will make someone a good
pet, and I will certainly miss him, but Photon will certainly be happier
when he is gone.

Thanks for listening, and I appreciate your advice, even if I may not
follow it as you would wish.

Paul

[Shelly]

On Tue, 29 Aug 2006 20:25:49 -0400, "Paul E. Schoen" <pst...@smart.net>
wrote:

>Thank you for your kind remarks and understanding of the situation. It
>seems like most others have been very critical, and unwilling to see the
>good I have done so far with this dog,

Unable would be more accurate, as far as I'm concerned. I don't have a
very high tolerance for BS, so watching you post over and over and over
again for help, then watching you come up with a zillion reasons why
that help won't work for you, is a little irritating. I just don't
understand why you are unwilling to do something as minor as attending
an obedience class with your dog. Because, like it or not, until you
find a home for him, he *is* your dog, and he deserves to be treated as
such.

>His other problematic behavior has been that, when I release him from being
>tied outside, he will run down the stairs and find my cat's feeding bowl or
>an empty can of cat food, and he will triumphantly carry it to his
>downstairs dog bed,

Why aren't you picking up the can/bowl before you release the dog?
Honestly, you are not a victim here. You *could* take a little bit of
control of the situation!

>and spend a lot of time and effort licking the bowl and
>actually chewing on the can. He will also sometimes *carefully* extract
>something from the trash can and try to lick out any residue of food it
>might contain.

Put the trash out of his reach.

>When he wants my attention, he will scratch at my leg with his paw, or put
>both paws on the arm of my chair or in my lap.

Bad! When he does that, give him a command that he knows and make him
comply before you give him attention. You're letting this dog call the
shots, and that's not a good idea, *especially* when the owner is
wishy-washy. Your dog knows you are a push-over, and you can't blame
him for exploiting your weakness.

>I don't think he will be a real problem for adoption.

He'd be a better candidate with some obedience training, or at the very
least, a few manners.

[pfoley]

"Paul E. Schoen" <pst...@smart.net> wrote in message

news:44f4db1e$0$10214$ecde...@news.coretel.net...

==He sounds very cute as well as very intelligent. He just needs some
obedience training and lots of exercise to wear him out. I think you are
doing a great job with Muttley.
---------
>
>

[pfoley]

"Paul E. Schoen" <pst...@smart.net> wrote in message
news:44f0c908$0$15496$ecde...@news.coretel.net...
>

> "shelly" <she...@cat-sidh.net> wrote in message
> news:4lat4tF...@individual.net...
> > Paul E. Schoen wrote:

> >> She said it was much better than the Hatz product I applied around the
> >> first of August, and apparently there have been lawsuits against Hartz
> >> about their product.
> >

> > I had a cat nearly killed (he suffered permanent CNS damage) from a
> > cat-specific flea treatment manufactured by Hartz Mountain. According to
> > my vet, this was not by any means an isolated incident. I haven't used a
> > Hartz Mountain product since then, nor would I recommend their products
> > to others.
> >
> > In dealing with your flea problem, remember that fleas spend only a
small
> > amount of time on the dog. It is important to treat the home, yard,
etc.
> > as well. Your vet should be able to provide, or at least give you the
> > names of, appropriated products.
> >

> >> She also suggested that I give Muttley a bath with flea soap or
shampoo,
> >> and then apply the Frontline about two days later. I have had Muttley
> >> since mid February and have not yet given him a bath. So, I got some
> >> flea shampoo and tried to get Muttley to get into the bathtub, but he
> >> would not. Even when I got into the tub, he would not come in with me,
> >> so the best I could do was splash some water on him and try to brush
him
> >> a bit. Certainly not satisfactory.
> >

> > I should think not. I don't know how big Muttley is, but did you try
> > picking him up and placing him in the tub? I wouldn't leave the "to
> > bathe or not to bathe" decision up to him, if it were me.
> >
> > If you cannot lift him, I would recommend bathing him outside with warm
> > water (you can buy a very cheap hose adapter for your sink wherever
> > waterbed accessories are sold). If he is not cooperative, make sure to
> > restrain him.
> >
> > Your only other alternative is to pay someone to bathe him for you.
> >

> >> I do have an outside hose, but it is cold water with very high
pressure.
> >> Also, where it is located there is mostly dirt and no sidewalk or
patio,
> >> so I can just see him rolling in the mud if I try to bathe him there.
> >

> > Who is in charge at your house, and why would you allow him to do that?
> >
>

====
You should write a book about you, Muttley and the cat.
I am thinking that you might have better control over Muttley when leash
walking, since he is so large and strong, if you used a pinch training
collar instead of a choke collar. I think you mentioned you used a choke
chain. Sometimes, dogs pull and pull on those choke chains and after
awhile it damages their throats. My trainer suggested I not use those
collars, and told me to use a pinch collar. With the pinch collar, you quck
pull and quick release to correct. If you do buy him a pinch collar, do not
leave it on the dog after walking; remove it; they are only to be used for
training or when walking on the leash. I use this type training collar a
lot on my Rottweiler, because she is so powerful, and it allows me to have
more control over her. They are good for large dogs. I find, though, that
I don't have to use it as often anymore, depending where I am going with
her. Instead, I can just use her leather collar with the leash, since she
is easier to control now with some training and more exercise. I think
those two things are key in making a dog into a good pet; training and
exercise. If you tire them out enough, they become more docile, thus easier
to live with. If they don't get exercise, and mental stimulation, they
become bored and start looking around for some mischief to get into and are
more difficult to handle. Also, the older they get, of course, the more
settled they become, which is nice.
===========
>
>

[Paul E. Schoen]

"pfoley" <pfo...@hotmail.com> wrote in message

news:bN5Jg.3416$bM....@newsread4.news.pas.earthlink.net...

>
> ==He sounds very cute as well as very intelligent. He just needs some
> obedience training and lots of exercise to wear him out. I think you are
> doing a great job with Muttley.
> ---------

Thank you for a few words of encouragement. I have been struggling with
conflicting feelings about Muttley, and have been frankly somewhat
depressed and overwhelmed. I may still look into obedience classes for the
two of us, but I don't think that will ever settle the problem with my cat,
and I feel bad when I must tie Muttley outside so Photon can enjoy her
dinner in peace and have a few moments with me. Most of the time, Muttley
has free roam of the house while Photon hides under the floor or fends for
herself outside.

I feel that it is inevitable that Muttley must go to another home, and he
is not so horribly obnoxious and disobedient as others assume him to be.
Perhaps I choose to allow him a few liberties that others would immediately
subdue, but he has come a long way from his much worse behavior when I
first resigned myself to taking care of him. I have learned a lot, probably
most importantly that I do not have a place in my life for a dog at this
time, and no amount of obedience training will change that in the near
future. Others may continue to criticize me, or choose to ignore me, but I
really think I have done my best for Muttley, and I am committed to finding
him a proper home.

I rejected an early adoption offer from a young couple with a young child,
because my friend (who originally rescued him), and I, felt that they would
not be able to give him the sort of home he would need, and they were also
unwilling (or unable) to compensate us (and the local Rescue Mission that
had helped out), for his considerable veterinary expenses for vaccination
and neutering, etc. They also seemed fixated on the need to get a "crate"
to put him in, and from experience we knew that he hated to be confined. He
is constrained when I tie him to a tether outside, but he seems reasonably
content. When I had him in a fenced kennel, he barked and whined, and
eventually he worked his way out of it. He seems mostly relaxed in the
house as well, but again this is at Photon's expense.

It is time to put an end to this thread. I appreciate the advice, but not
the criticism. You do not know all of the situation, yet some of you feel
it is OK to sit in righteous judgment of someone who has saved a dog's life
and is willing to devote time and effort to assure his eventual adoption by
the right person.

Paul

[Paul E. Schoen]

"pfoley" <pfo...@hotmail.com> wrote in message

news:gw6Jg.3476$bM....@newsread4.news.pas.earthlink.net...

Thanks again for constructive advice. I have seen some of those training
collars, and they look rather fearsome, but perhaps they would provide
better control. You are correct in saying that more exercise, and maturity,
will make a dog more settled and easier to control. I don't know his actual
age, but we are guessing at about two years now. In dog years he is a
rebellious adolescent, but he is learning to obey my commands to heel and
sit.

Maybe I will add a web page about my experiences with Muttley and Photon,
and I'll include the story of how I got (as kittens) Photon and her brother
Meson. He was actually a lot more affectionate (he almost gave me a
hickey!), but he was a bully to his smaller sister. One night she had
enough, and she attacked him as he came onto the porch, and chased him away
so she could be #1 queen cat. I'll put the story on a page of my personal
site, www.peschoen.com.

Paul

[sighthounds & siberians]

Paul, lots of people here do rehabbing and adoption of dogs every bit
as difficult as, and more difficult than, Muttley. Many of us have
saved many dogs' lives. People who do this on a regular basis know
what's necesesary to get the dogs adopted by the right people. Quite
often, at least part of it is training. Asking for advice, not being
willing to follow that advice, and whining about everyone being
critical and judgmental is ignorant and short-sighted, to begin with.
I do agree with you, however, that it is time to put an end to this
thread.

Mustang Sally

[Paula]

On Mon, 28 Aug 2006 02:51:48 -0400, "Paul E. Schoen"
<pst...@smart.net> wrote:

>He really is behaving well, and I would love to keep him if he and Photon
>could become buddies, but I don't think that will happen, even with
>obedience classes.

You don't know until you try! The obedience classes will make him
much more adoptable even if they don't teach him not to chase the cat
so you win either way. I can't tell you how much easier it is to find
homes for dogs that are obedience trained!!!

--
Paula
"Anyway, other people are weird, but sometimes they have candy,
so it's best to try to get along with them." Joe Bay