dog training
shaper
confused!!
Putting aside the craziness of 'the puppy wizard' on these forums (he
obviously makes no sense in any post i have read, he never actually answers
anyone just pastes nonsensical dribble after each line of someones post,
repeating the same thing over and over and over and over again, making
claims about how he will drop a hammer on the "industry" or something, and
generally trying to get attention for himself), i have had a look through
the manual that he claims to have written, and to a new dog keeper such as
myself it actually seems quite decent. i know it will be hard to distinguish
between real responses and those of this puppy wizzard himself (who i am
seriously considering just blocking from my newsreader because he never
actually offers anything new other than whining about his free manual and
some sort of magic box which sounds completely credible [yes a magic box
that can all of a sudden make any pet act exactly how you want it too]) but
is there actually anyone who has used the methods in this manual with any
success ?
I am wanting to get a rhodesian ridgeback soon and really would like to know
the best and most effective way of training without using food treats or
violence (i do agree with what the guy says about food treats and violence)
Thanks for any intelligent replies
Gwen Watson
shaper wrote:
>
> I am wanting to get a rhodesian ridgeback soon and really would like to know
> the best and most effective way of training without using food treats or
> violence (i do agree with what the guy says about food treats and violence)
> Thanks for any intelligent replies
I would suggest visiting several dog trainers and training facilities in your
local
area. Find out when the first class begins to each one of the places you
have selected and be there taking notes. Make a special note to how
many dog/handler team attended at the first class. Then attend the last
two classes(as obsever) and again make a note at how many dog/handler
teams remain. If the numbers are close to the same with few "drop-outs"
that is significant. Often a trainer that is not that experienced or one
that is not well versed and flexible will have
many "drop-outs" by the end of the class. Often times this is caused
because the trainers is a "one size fits" all kind of trainer. Also the trainer
is not
upbeat enough to keep handler/dog team enthused about learning. JMO
Also decide what you are shooting for and what you feel most comfortable
with in training styles, ie Purely Positive methods only(which typically do
involve
treat rewards, especially in the beginning.
Gwen
Jayjay
wrote:
I have his manual and have read most of it, but have not "tried"
anything from it yet. Although - I have to say that alot of what
he's written is canned from many other forms of training.
I can say this. The obedience training I went through with my dog
was a "correction" based training. In that the leash and collar are
used as training devices to correct any unwanted behavior and Praise
in the form of nice words, good dogs, and lots of petting, love and
bodyrubs for praise behavior and also, ignoring or detering some
unwanted behavior (jumping, dog jumps, you turn around and ignore dog,
till it sits nicely, then pet and praise, or if the dog chews on a
shoe, remove the shoe and give the dog a toy he is allowed to chew
on). Overall, this works well. But needs time and training to
develop long term behavior modification.
I also read 3 dog training books prior to our obedience training - as
well as alot of research on the net, and they all suggested similar
ways of training. Also, "Good Dog U" on the Animal Planet network
appears to use this form of training.
Other people have success with food rewards or clicker training,
although I believe they will also use some form of correction with the
leash/collar in order to deter the unwanted behavior. Not sure
though.
The key to all successful training that I've seen is - Successfully
training the humans who are administering the training. Then spending
the time to train the dog and continue, follow through and continue
with training for a while.
Learning to get past your own instinctive reactions to some behaviors
is helpful. Like, instinctive behavior to a biting dog - to hit back
and yell at dog. But, this can cause further aggression and fear
aggression.
Funny though - PW claims that the training collar correction is
harmful to dogs and that no collar should be used... yet in the
manual it states to use a flat collar or chain choke collar for the
more stubborn dogs. The difference between his training and the
training I went through, he uses sound to create aversion/diversion
tactics ... I used leash correction, distraction/redirection and
ignoring. Other than that - the tactics are basically the same.
Diana
"Jayjay" <jjf...@notmail.com> wrote in message
news:3ee56c82....@news.cis.dfn.de...[..]
> Other people have success with food rewards or clicker training,
> although I believe they will also use some form of correction with the
> leash/collar in order to deter the unwanted behavior. Not sure
> though.
****************
Not at all ~ the lead should be there for prevention of accidents only (like
jic you aren't looking when a bike shoots past, and your dog wants to give
chase), not as a method to 'correct' your dog. The idea is that the dog
*wants* to work with you and walk beside you because you share mutual trust
and respect. If uoi hurt your dog, in any way shape or form you are breaking
down that trust-bond which is vital for good training.
>
> The key to all successful training that I've seen is - Successfully
> training the humans who are administering the training. Then spending
> the time to train the dog and continue, follow through and continue
> with training for a while.
>
> Learning to get past your own instinctive reactions to some behaviors
> is helpful. Like, instinctive behavior to a biting dog - to hit back
> and yell at dog. But, this can cause further aggression and fear
> aggression.
****************
Most importantly, remember that dogs can't speak English (or japanese,
Russian, German, Spanish etc). Their language is very differant to our own
and they rely very heavily on body language and smell. We don't, we rely on
words.
Ecven when two people are communicating using the same medium (eg posting on
a list) in the same language we can still get confused. I am posting from
the UK whereas the majority here are from the US and we do use slightly
different languages and look at things from a slightly different perspective
so mis-interpretations do happen and sometimes people feel that they have
been victimised or set upon for no reason.
So talking to your dog and trraining him using our human language is just
not fail-safe enough IMO for people to be using physical punishments. You
might think that you are correcting him for nipping your hands, but there is
no way to tell that he thinks the reason you are hurting him is because you
are just plain unpredictable and nasty. Remove that element of dout and
margin of error and you won't have a dog that is harbouring any fear or
distrust of you and work with his basic instincts that make him strive to be
close and want to work as part of your team.
Diana
--
My precious Stone: Once my rock, now my diamond in the sky.
The aad group web site: http://www.ourdogs.chilly-hippo.co.uk
Learn more about your pets: http://www.infopet.co.uk
The Puppy Wizard
"shaper" <nom...@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:3edb...@quokka.wn.com.au...
> I have been reading these forums for a few weeks now,
Well, you know what The Puppy Wizzzard sez abHOWET
when lurkers post... they're usually ready to HURT or KILL
their dogs...
> and am getting really confused!!
Well, stick arHOWEnd and you'll be just like HOWER
dog lover experts who beat choke shock crate and spray
aversives in their dog's faces.
> Putting aside the craziness of 'the puppy wizard'
Yeah. Don't listen to him, he's NUTS! NOBODY can
train ALL dogs to NATURALLY WANT to do
everything you ask withHOWET HURTING them...
> on these forums
These forums have been inhabited with liars and
dog abusers since the git go. Most of the professional
abusers are no longer posting here cause The Puppy
Wizzzard EXXXPOSED them.
> (he obviously makes no sense in any post i have read,
Right... you got to know what's been goin down... GOOD LUCK!
> he never actually answers anyone
Cause there's no service in giving TIPS to people so
they can prolong their behavior problems. We don't do
what dog lovers do to their dogs, cause we don't have
the option of KILLIN THEM like tara o. and many others
have done since they've heard that all behavior problems
are caused by mishandling.
> just pastes nonsensical dribble after each line of someones post,
Yeah. That's usually QUOTES of them hurtin and killin dogs...
> repeating the same thing over and over and over and
> over again, making claims about how he will drop a
> hammer on the "industry" or something,
Yeah. Most of HOWER dog trainers and behaviorists
are dead wrong.
> and generally trying to get attention for himself),
Yeah... so The Puppy Wizzzard can SELL you HIS FREE manual.
> i have had a look through the manual
Well good for you. You're quite welcome.
> that he claims to have written,
Everybody knows HE plagiarized it from the
best authors in the world, and IT STILL DON'T
WORK... evidently HE plagiarized DANGERHOWES
and INEFFECTIVE methods... no wonder HE'S so
HATED here. HE HURTS DOGS and blames the
shock collar and pronged choke collar fans for things
THEY DON'T DO!
> and to a new dog keeper such as myself it actually
> seems quite decent.
Ask ed w of pet loss dot con. He makes his livin off
of DEAD DOGS. He'll tell you the manual is dangerHOWES
and The Puppy Wizzzard is a LIAR.
> i know it will be hard to distinguish between real
> responses and those of this puppy wizzard himself
HE'S A LIAR.
> (who i am> seriously considering just blocking from my
> newsreader
Good for you!
> because he never actually offers anything new other than
YOUR FREE COPY of The Puppy Wizzzard's FREE WWW
Wits' End Dog Training Method Manual...
> whining about his free manual
The DANGERHOWES, INEFFECTIVE, PLAGIARIZED,
bird cage liner...
> and some sort of magic box which sounds completely
> credible [yes a magic box that can all of a sudden make
> any pet act exactly how you want it too])
Yeah. And it's money back satisfaction guaranteed FOREVER.
> but is there actually anyone who has used the methods
> in this manual with any success ?
NO! The Puppy Wizzzard posts sock puppetts and forged
posters and hires paid shills to promote the manual HE'S
SELLIN.
> I am wanting to get a rhodesian ridgeback soon and
> really would like to know the best and most effective
> way of training without using food treats or violence
> (i do agree with what the guy says about food treats
> and violence)
BWWWAAHAHJAHAJAJAJAJAJAJAJAAA!!!
YOU'RE HOWETA BUSINES.
> Thanks for any intelligent replies
Ask ed w of PET LOSS dot CON if you need help...
Date: 5/22/03 11:24:35 PM Eastern
Daylight Time
From: p...@cfl.rr.com
To: Witse...@aol.com
Well, let me tell you, your Wits' End
Dog Training Method works.
My dog, Dasie, Loves to chase chameleons
around the barbecue on the patio. I
used this system on four different occasions.
When she went out today, she looked
everywhere else but the barbecue.
Amazing, just amazing.
I will write to Amanda about the video.
I am really excited to learn more, and
understand. Maybe just a little reassurance
that I am going about it the right way.
Thanks again
Paul
> > =========================
From: Chris Williams (k9a...@webtv.net)
Subject: Re: Thank you Jerry Howe
Date: 2002-03-26 08:16:19 PST
Engrossing account, Anthony. Our best to Angel
and your family.
A friend, who socializes the kittens I've taken
from a feral cat colony, is using the DDR.
She reports far fewer panic problems than
she's had before.
============================
Chris Williams writes:
"The FREE Wits' End Dog Training Method manual
I do find valuable. Much of it I recognize as what
I've always done without thinking of it as "training".
New stuff, I've used. His anchoring technique erased
the last of Mac's fireworks trauma,"
====================
<"Terri"@cyberhighway
> Hey, do like me, and killfile Jerry.
> He has millions of people aleady reading
> his posts and watching him extract his soggy
> foot out of his mouth!
> Out of these MILLIONS, I've only seen 2
> naive childs come forward and actually
> believe in his training manual.
Robert Crim writes:
I assume that I and my wife are those two
naive childs since I freely admit to having
read and, I hope, understood enough of the
manual and it's counterparts by John Fisher
and the posts of Marilyn Rammell to believe
and use it.
This naive child would like to say thank you
to both Jerry and Marilyn for putting up with
a constant barrage of really infantile crap at
the hands of supposedly adult dog lovers.
The other naive child (LSW) has to put up with
the nagging idea that if people like them had
been posting earlier, maybe we would not have
had to hold the head of a really magnificent
animal in our arms while he was given the
needle and having to hug him and wait until
he gasped his last gasp.
To my mind, "naive" is believing you can
terrorize a dog into good behavior. Naive is
believing that people that hide behind fake
names are more honest than people that use
their real names.
Naive is thinking that dilettante dog breeders
and amateur "trainers" like Joey
(lyingdogDUMMY, j.h.) are the equal or better
than those that have studied and lived by their
craft for decades.
"Stupid" is believing that people do not see
kindergarten level insults for what they are.
Really stupid is believing that people like
Jerry Howe and Marilyn Rammell are going
to just go away because you people act like
fools. Why do you act like fools? I really
have no idea, and I don't really care.
> And, to date: I've not seen ONE come
> forward and actually admit to buying and
> having success with his little black box.
I think I'm going to get one myself for Father's
day and take it down to the Animal Shelter for
their use and testing. You would never believe
the results, so you'll never know.
> Anyone by now that doesn't see a scam man
> coming by Jerry's posts deserves to get what
> is sure to be coming to him! LOL!
I don't see a "scam man", so I guess I and Longsuffering
Wife and Rollei will just have to get what we deserve, eh?
As Joey (Dogman) says, "poor Rollei.".......right.
>Terri
Yes it was, and that is sad.
Robert, Longsuffering Wife and Rollei (do I get to listen
to the box first?)
--------==========================----
"misty" <Mom...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:16990-3C...@storefull-2293.public.lawson.webtv.net...
> I don't now whether Peach is dead or alive.
> I do know she's not here with us. I really
> can't blame anyone here for her loss.
> I'm the one who ignored your advice. I did
> it because of how you write/wrote. I was
> unwilling to accept the idea that my using
> a shock collar could have any bearing on
> Peach not wanting to stay home.
> Up until I started using it my main concern
> had been keeping my dogs in their own yard.
> Once I started using the e-fence...well, then
> my concern became how to keep them from
> running off for days on end.
> I lost valuable training time becoming
> embroiled in the anti-shock debate and
> the "Jerry sux" tirades.
> I lost one dog but I have the bestest dog in
> the world now <g>
> A Wits End Trained dog, one who is
> completely housetrained, doesn't chew
> up stuff, stays in the yard, and doesn't bark
> all the time.
> IOW a great companion and friend.
> Thanks Jerry!
=====================
"misty" <Mom...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:6946-3B6...@storefull-233.iap.bryant.webtv.ne
> We just installed a PetSafe brand fence
> this Spring. Two dogs, two collars We
> now have one dog and no collars.
> Peach and Zelda would run thru the fence,
> not want to come back in the yard and would
> run for days. The last time, Peach didn't come
> back home.
> I used the Wit's End Training Manual to learn
> how to train my dog. She is now border trained.
> A few minutes each day reinforces her desire to
> stay in the yard.
> She no longer runs out into the road, I can
> stop her from chasing cats and she no longer
> cringes when we walk around the yard.
> I can not say loud or long enough how much
> I hate the e-fence and its collars. If you can't
> get a regular fence then you need to train your
> dog. I will never rely on an electronic collar to
> keep my dog in our yard again.
> The price was too high:-(
> ~misty
============
"misty" <Mom...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:1199-3BD...@storefull-235.iap.bryant.webtv.net...
> Jerry has taken the time to help me out off the NG. I have a
> very loud cockatoo who has been having problems adjusting to
> my 8 month old son.
> Joey is learning to walk. He likes to use Buddy's cage as a
> hold on for dear life object.
> Buddy wasn't exposed to toddlers prior to Joey.. my older
> two boys went through this stage in a different house where
> Buddy had his own room and the boys had only visits, not
> daily contact 24/7.
> Buddy has always been spooked by "tiny" humans. Joey has
> been driving him nuts! He showed his disapproval by non-stop
> screaming. A cockatoo scream can be heard a block away with
> all the widows shut <g> being in the house it makes your
> ears pop and your nerves crawl.
> Jerry sent me Free his DDR. He sent instructions on how to
> use it. He answered my questions quite politely.
> I have been using the DDR in my kitchen ( where Buddy is
> located~ teensy 4 room house) for 3 weeks.
> At first I noticed no difference in Buddy's behavior. Then I
> realized after a week that he no longer screamed for hours
> on end. This isn't to say he stopped completely <bg> he
> still demands his share of all meals. But he doesn't start
> screaming at 10 pm when he wants _everyone_ to go to bed.
> Last week he had a day where he screamed all day. My nerves
> were frazzled. I went to turn the DDR up a notch per Jerry's
> instructions. I discovered the DDR was shut off! I turned it
> back on and left it on the lowest setting. Buddy calmed back
> down and quit screaming.
> In the time that I've had the DDR on I've had a lot of c*ts
> come to my house. One I adopted and he's quite the sweetie.
> He's a yellow tiger named Gatomon ( means c*t monster) who
> is very friendly with my kids and Zelda.
> I may not like how Jerry treats other posters but I do like
> the methods he shares. Being on a limited budget I like
> things that are free. I also like the fact that I can e-mail
> him and get advice whenever I need it.
> Even my DH who is a technical minded kind of guy thinks the
> DDR is working. ( He went to Devry and has a degree in
> electronics, knows alot about radios and anything
> mechanical... he's a jack of all trades around the house
> <g>). He does NDT for a living.
> We don't expect to need the DDR forever.. As soon as Joey is
> walking, Buddy will realize that he's not a strange animal..
> some kind of furless dog or c*t <bg>.
==============================
From: Paul B (NOSPAMpa...@clear.net.nz)
Subject: Re: Dog vs cat food (stealing cat food)
Date: 2001-03-03 22:18:03 PST
It's possible to teach a dog not to eat out of a cat bowl
without too much difficulty.
My dogs don't touch the food in the cat bowls although
Roz licks up any bits that have been dropped around the bowls
:-)
I used a can with stones in it to create a distraction
anytime the dogs tried to eat the cats food, followed
with immediate praise. It worked a treat.
The cats bowls are down all the time, usually there is
food left over but the dogs don't eat it, even if we go
out and leave the dogs with access inside through a dog door.
Paul
--
Obedience and affection are not related, if they
were everyone would have obedient dogs.
See the dogs, cats, us and pics of NZ etc at my homepage.....
http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/paulbousie/index.html
Updated regularly (last time 23 Jan 01) so keep coming back!!!
====================
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Don Fitz [mailto:donf...@hotmail.com]
> Sent: Friday, 28 February 2003 11:53 a.m.
> To: Ama...@DCFWatch.com; paulb...@clear.net.nz
> Subject: Jerry Howe
>
> Hi,
> Jerry uses your email in his posts and I was wondering
> what you have to say of his training methods.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul Bousie" <paulb...@clear.net.nz>
To: "'Don Fitz'" <donf...@hotmail.com>; <Ama...@DCFWatch.com>
Cc: <jho...@bellsouth.net>
Sent: Saturday, March 01, 2003 5:45 AM
Subject: RE: Jerry Howe
> If you have read the newsgroup posts then you must
> already have a good idea about what I think.
>
> His methods are the best I have come across. They
> aren't a quick fix but an entire training concept so if
> you aren't in for the long haul then don't bother. If
> you go his way then you have to forget all the other
> gibberish that other people spew, you have to believe
> in what you are doing, then and only then will you get
> the results.
> You can't combine his methods with other training
> methods, not until you understand what you are
> trying to achieve, and even then I have only ever
> combined about 2 other trainers ideas and even
> then just a snip of what they suggest which works
> in parallel with the Wits End concept.
> His methods make you as the trainer completely
> responsible for your actions, his methods make
> you think and work out your own solutions for
> any given situation, the default (the recall) is
> always there to get things under control again.
> His ideas and concepts teach you to work with
> the dog, to develop a team and a willingness to
> work together which is surely the best way to be.
> His methods don't use force or intimidation but
> they do totally emphasize the absolute importance
> of pack (family pack) structure, without that you
> can achieve almost nothing.
> If you are wondering how a dog can be trained
> without any negativity the answer lies in the recall,
> anytime your dog doesn't follow through with a
> request you call him / her to you, since the recall
> is the first thing taught and it is taught in such a
> way it becomes a reflex the dog always returns
> to you, it is a subordinate position for the dog and
> we release it by asking for a "heel" which is an
> "equal" position.
> His methods are very good, his understanding of
> dogs is excellent, I recommend his methods.
> Paul Bousie
==============================
"Paul B" <pan...@zfree.co.nz> wrote in message
news:3c2a...@clear.net.nz...
> Bollocks, the manual has no dangerous suggestions at
> all, people who find the manual useful are those that
> don't need to control a dog to satisfy their own ego
> but simply want a well behaved dog that is easy to
> live with. I would suggest the people who follow the
> advice in his manual are people who have already
> tried other inefficient methods and are fed up with
> the poor results.
> The more I think about the methods he suggests the
> more sense it makes, the biggest problem is people
> believe they have to be in control of the dog, tell it
> whats right and wrong, dogs don't understand
> our values and I don't believe they are capable of
> understanding them either, so to train them we use
> methods they understand. That means abstract
> training, doing sometimes what appears to
> almost be the opposite of what makes sense to us.
> If you are purely result orientated then you will not
> find Jerry's manual much use, if you love your dogs
> and love to work WITH them then his manual is
> your dream come true. Distraction and praise works
> with any dog, when you sit back and really think about
> it, it's very obvious why.
> When a dog is properly distracted (and praised) of a
> particular behaviour then that behaviour very quickly
> becomes unfulfilling so the dog will no longer have any
> interest in pursuing it, whether we are about or not,
> thats the key to stopping garbage can raids and food
> stealing etc etc, no force, no bad dog, just distracting it
> in an appropriate manner that it no longer wishes to
> pursue that behaviour.
> Better than hiding the garbage can eh?
> Paul
=======================
Jerry says:
HOWE'S the baby's seizures?
parentadlitem says:
better
Jerry says:
got any idea how much better?
parentadlitem says:
not really
parentadlitem says:
she doesn't do em here that i see
Jerry says:
amazing
Jerry says:
when's the last time she seized with you?
parentadlitem says:
weeks ago?
Jerry says:
but before the machine it was daily?
parentadlitem says:
every minute!
Jerry says:
does her mom use it at her HOWES?
parentadlitem says:
yup
parentadlitem says:
i yelled at her about it
Jerry says:
ask her when's the last time she saw a seizure for me
parentadlitem says:
k . she's sleepin now, ill talk to her tonight, she's comin over
Jerry says:
yeah... that's pretty good stuff
parentadlitem says:
yup
parentadlitem says:
i love mine
parentadlitem says:
no barkin the neighborhood at all anymore
parentadlitem says:
ever
Jerry says:
right
parentadlitem says:
once in a blue moon some distant dog will bark
parentadlitem says:
but all the neighbors dogs are quiet
Jerry says:
when you hear that distant dog throw the machine on
parentadlitem says:
we do
parentadlitem says:
it's really rare though
=================
Thank you,
Jerry Howe,
Director of Research,
BIOSOUND Scientific
Director of Training,
Wits' End Dog Training
1611 24th St
Orlando, FL 32805
Phone: 1-407-425-5092
Phone: 1-888-BIOSOUND (1-888-246-7686)
Phone: 1-888-WITSEND (1-888-948-7363)
MSN Messenger: doggyd...@hotmail.com
Email: ThePupp...@EarthLink.Net
The Puppy Wizard. <}TPW;-) >
ANY QUESTIONS, DUMMIES?
,-._,-,
V)"(V
(_o_) Have a great day!
/ V)
(l l l) Your Puppy Wizzzard. <}YPW;~} >
oo-oo
The Puppy Wizard
"shaper" <nom...@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:3edb...@quokka.wn.com.au...
> I have been reading these forums for a few weeks now,
All dog behavior problems are caused by mishandling.
> i know it will be hard to distinguish between real responses
> and those of this puppy wizzard himself
You can believe whomever you want. There's only
WON problem... if you follow the advice of HOWER
Gang Of Lying Dog Abusing Punk Thug Cowards,
you won't be able to rely on them for long term advice
on account of they ain't gonna continue posting here.
> (who i am seriously considering just blocking from my
> newsreader
You do that...
> because he never actually offers anything new other than
> whining about his free manual and some sort of magic box
> which sounds completely credible [yes a magic box that can
> all of a sudden make any pet act exactly how you want it too])
PRECISELY:
The Puppy Wizard's
Doggy Do Right (And Kitty Will And A Rooster
Did And A Cockatoo Or Two Did Too)
- The Little Black Box That Cures Animal's Annoying Habits -
Here are a few publicly posted, verifiable,
unsolicited testimonials:
From: Chris Williams (k9a...@webtv.net)
Subject: Re: Thank you Jerry Howe
Date: 2002-03-26 08:16:19 PST
Engrossing account, Anthony. Our best to Angel
and your family.
A friend, who socializes the kittens I've taken
from a feral cat colony, is using the DDR.
She reports far fewer panic problems than
she's had before.
============================
Chris Williams writes:
"The FREE Wits' End Dog Training Method manual
I do find valuable. Much of it I recognize as what
I've always done without thinking of it as "training".
New stuff, I've used. His anchoring technique erased
the last of Mac's fireworks trauma,"
====================
Elaine McClung, President of Pet Rescue, Animal
Commissioner Brevard Co FL, writes: Sep 9, 2000
"I ordered from Jerry a long time ago.. He was helpful and
the order was filled promptly. Yes, Doggie Do Right does
indeed exist.
I "had" a very aggressive female Pit.. She was showing
aggression not only towards Dok, Rhodesian Ridgeback,
but our cats and even us.
She now plays with Dok, even to the point of allowing him
to take a toy or bone from her. She no longer shows any
aggression towards us. She is showing some aggression
towards the cats but that is down to a warning growl.
It is not just my opinion that all this aggression existed
before Doggie Do Right as we were advised by three vets
to euthanize her.
I do very much believe that DDR will help JR as I know it
has helped my dogs and cats. I do think your product is a
valuable tool in helping with aggression and other behavior
problems.
I am in Feral CatNetwork (we spay and neuter approximately
100 feral cats a month), I am also a member of a local AKC
dog obedience club, member of a local AKC agility club,
president of Pet Rescue, board member of the Alliance for
Care and Welfare of Animals (on the board are: county
commissioner, vet. rep., rep. from AKC dog club, CFA cat
club, assistant County manager, head of animal control,
director of two different shelters, etc.) and Space
Coast Feline Network http://www.spacecoastfelinenetwork.com
Thanks, Elaine,
===================
Hi Jerry,
I wrote to you a week or so ago about the unit. I have since
borrowed one from Elaine Mc Clung. She speaks very
highly of it.
So, I brought it home and plugged it in. Of course, I
wanted it to come on, all the barking stop, and have every
one immediately fall to the floor in little comas for a few
hours. Well, after I got all 27 of them to be quiet, still no
comas. But, it had only been 36 seconds at that point. So,
I gave it a little longer. Still no comas. Was this really
going to work? I mean, I do have an unusual situation.
So, by bedtime, a few hours later. I started to notice just
how many were asleep already - with their feet in the air! I
started to have hope. During the night, all was calm. In the
morning when I got up, only a few of them WALKED quietly
to the door to go out. Not the usual evacuation.
I had the unit from Sunday afternoon until Tuesday
Morning. I was certainly pleased with the night effect. I
wasn't so sure about the amount of the day time effect.
Until I took it back. Within half an hour, the monsters had
resurfaced. I wondered if I could break into Elaine's house
and if she would notice :)
I know another person who does dog rescue. She rescues
Beagles. She has 23 in an 1100 square foot house. God
bless her. She is interested to see if it will work for her. I
also spoke to someone else who does cat rescue, and
she is interested. The cat rescue people have monthly
meetings. Maybe Elaine could give a word or two about it.
So, if there are any words of advice you can send my way
about the best way to use it in my case, I would appreciate
it. I of course wanted to keep it on the highest setting, but
don't know if that is advised, even with my situation of so
many new ones coming and (too few) going.
Also, how I and others can go about getting one, etc. I
think the vets should have the info in their offices. It must
help dogs with separation anxiety. My vet practices
homeopathic as well as traditional medicine, so I
would think it would be right up her alley.
Thank you.
Desiree M Webber
A New Leash On Life
================
Subj: Fear of Thunder
Date: 6/29/02 6:07:13 PM Eastern Daylight Time
From: Jraltman
To: Witsenddog
Dear Jerry,
I hope you'll be able to post this message so
more people who are at their wit's end will be
able to help their dogs.
To review:
Our puppy was uncomfortable during thunder
storms. At the beginning of the problem, she
paced restlessly from room to room. She
couldn't settle and sleep.
From there the problem grew. She would run
to the far southeast corner of the house (which
makes sense because most storms here come
from the northwest) and she'd cower in the
corner of the couch and shake.
1st attempt to help her:
I'd pick her up, brush and massage her (call
me a nut - I've sung to her when I've done
her daily brushing since she was tiny so of
course I sang too) and when she relaxed,
I'd put her in her crate. She then slept and I
thought the problem was solved.
Traumatic event:
We were out in the park playing with one of her
doggy friends when it began to rain. On the way
home, there was the loudest, longest, thunder
clap I've ever heard.
From that day on, the problem got worse and worse.
I couldn't calm her with singing and massage. The
fear spread. She wouldn't go out if it was raining.
No thunder, just gently summer rain, and she
wouldn't go out.
The solution:
I surfed the net and came across a free manual Wit's
End Dog Training Method and a product called Doggy
Do Right that seemed better than anything else I came
across.
A phone call to Jerry Howe, author of the manual and
Director of Research, Biosound Scientific, convince
me to try both the manual and the product.
Problem solved:
I followed Jerry's suggestions (more phone calls - he
is most generous with his time and advice). The first
two thunder storms my puppy was restless but not
running around in a blind panic.
The third storm, she barked her deep, stranger
danger bark after each clap of thunder.
The fourth storm, she seemed uneasy at first. Soon
she was asleep at my feet and she napped through
the rest of the storm.
A miracle.
I am endlessly grateful to Jerry
for his manual and his machine.
A word about Doggy Do Right. It is odd to buy
a machine that emits a sound I cannot hear.
I took the chance because Jerry offered a full
refund including shipping. Though I heard
nothing, my puppy clearly did.
When I first turned on the machine, she got
the cutest, most quizzical look on her face.
She looked at me as if to say: "What's that?
I never heard that before." She looks at the
machine when it is on. She rests on the floor
beneath it.
It is obvious from her behavior that she is
aware of its cycles.
Amazing.
Thank you Jerry.
=============
"Anthony Testa" <testa...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:c603fe9c.02032...@posting.google.com...
> I moved to Jacksonville, Florida about a year
> ago with my lovely wife linda. 3 times a week
> for 7 months I visited the Dog shelter and
> Humane Society looking for a German Shepherd.
> There were several times they had a dog there,
> but I was looking for a bitch. The reason for this
> is, all my life I have always had a female German
> shepherd. Therefore, I wanted another one. Finally
> about 6 weeks ago, I found her. "Angel" looked
> just like my previous dog of 12 years. I called my
> wife, she came down and fell in love with her immediately.
> We filled out the paper work and left the Humane
> Society with her. We drove directly to Pet Smart to
> buy all the essentials. We bought the biggest crate
> available. Let it be known I have never used a crate
> with any of my previous dogs. The biggest difference
> is my other dogs I had from puppy age. Angel just
> turned 2, 3 days before adoption.
> Angel appeared to be happy the trip home. Her ears
> were down all the time and her tail was so far between
> her legs that it looked like she had 3 ears. (humor)
> None the less, we knew we had a dog that was insecure.
> The first night we let Angel sleep in the living room.
> However, we had to go to work the next day. We pet
> her, kissed her and put her in the crate in the middle
> of the living room. During the day, my sons came
> home to walk her, give her a little loving and play with
> her. Then put her back in the crate and go to work.
> When we got home the first day, everything in the
> crate was ripped to shreds. The neighbors
> approached us and said that the dogs barked
> constantly for 3 hours then barked continuously after
> my sons left again. We thought it was because
> everything was new. We were wrong. The dig did
> this every day for 4 days.
> The 4th day was our first scheduled visit with the
> vet. The vet told us he can see that the dog is
> suffering from abuse and separation anxiety. So,
> the vet puts the dog on clomicalm. (not sure of the
> spelling).
> Well, for two days the dog walked around like Jerry
> Garcia on a Friday night after a concert, stoned!
> However, we were home with her the entire weekend.
> We crated her for work and came home to a barking
> dog, ripped bedding in the crate, upset neighbors
> and the plastic bottom of the crate completely torn
> to bits. It was obvious that crating was not a good thing.
> The next day we decided to leave her out of the crate
> to see what would happen. What a major mistake.
> We came home to almost $1,000 in damage.
> Furniture, the blinds were all chewed and torn down, etc.
> The next day we put her in the crate again. This
> time we came home to a nice 2' x 3' hole in our
> carpet in the middle of the living room, right down
> to the cement. I told my wife that we cannot afford
> to keep this dog. We should go out and get a puppy.
> She was upset and said there must be something
> we can do. I told her this. " I will go on the internet
> and see what is available". I was desperate and
> wanted to see if there was someone who could help.
> We read the information about the DDR and emailed
> Jerry. Jerry was kind enough to give us his phone
> number to discuss Angel in more detail.
> First, at no cost he sent us his manual. We started
> doing exactly what he said to do in the manual.
> Exactly as we did was was written, the results were
> exactly as he said it would be. Then we purchased
> the DDR.
> This is an amazing god send to us. First of all,
> Jerry sent it to us without paying. (thanks for that gesture)
> This has such and AMAZING effect. This testimonial is kind
> of winded so I will say this......Jerry's product literally saved
> this dogs life.
> Angel can be left alone during the day. NO CRATE. The
> dog shows absolutely no sign of anxiety at all. Jerry told
> us the product works immediately and it did! She does
> not bark at all during the day except when the mailman
> drops mail into the slot on the door. The manual for
> training works exactly as it says!
> We told our vet about this and he said that there are
> all kind of gimmicks. I told my vet that as a person who
> holds a degree of higher education, there just are some
> things they don't have in the text books and he should
> be receptive to that. We are proof. Angel was one
> day from going back to the humane society.
> Listen to this...My wife wrote one of the so called know
> it all of pets. His response to the exact letter we initially
> wrote to Jerry..."Get rid of the dog, bring her back" I'll
> save this person embarrassment by not saying the name.
> However, you know who you are and I have this to say to
> you. Go pump gas or bus tables because you
> sir, do not belong working with animals!
> Jerry, after reading some of the threads in the news
> group, I can't for the life of me understand why this
> many people are so dang blind or ignorant.
> You just keep plugging away at what you do, because
> you my friend are a life saver!!!
> Anytime you need someone to speak about the results
> of your product, you have my number. We would gladly
> talk to them.
> Thank you very much for all your help. God bless you...
> Anthony & Linda Testa
> Jacksonville, Florida
====================
> Thanks Jerry!
=====================
============
==============================
From: "Regina Guerrero" <>
To: <jho...@bellsouth.net>
Sent: Friday, December 14, 2001 11:42 AM
Subject: Thank You!
> I just wanted to take a bit of time
> to tell you how much I appreciate your product and
> your training methods as well.
> When my little Chihuahua first arrived
> I was overwhelmed with her anxiety and
> her ability to just Bark endlessly.
> I received your product and at first I thought
> I was using it wrong, because my puppy just
> seemed to ignore it.
> But after a week or two, she began to calm down
> considerably as well as act more friendly towards
> people on the street.
> I can't believe the difference I see in my little puppy.
> Your product is a life saver!
> Thanks again for everything.
> Sincerely,
> Regina Guerrero
==================
jerry
first i want to thank you for the BIOSOUND Scientific
Integrator and also for your training manual i first got
the BIOSOUND when maggie was a puppy and it was
great help in getting to relieve stress or to relieve stress
in her when we added riley to our family we had some
tense times as you know rily was 15 months old and
had had extensive training ,but was very set in his ways
BIOSOUND relieved his stress from the change that took
place in his life mixing with maggie has been a wonderful
experience for us watching them play and react together
is a real pleasure they are both very good therapy dogs
and Biosound helped us get them started and to stay on
the right track thanks for everything
john j mamaux
carlsbad ca
=========================
Nevyn" <ali...@wasp.net.au> wrote in message
news:fde575d9.02090...@posting.google.com...
Hi There Jerry
Its Nevyn. Sorry Ive not been posting, but I've been
working weekend work at the tracks with the greyhounds
(thanks to you!).
Well my dogs are the envy of all on my street. I can
have them out in the yard with me, take them walking
without a leash, they will do any command with no
hesitation. And they don't bark anymore! Thanks to
your machine!
Oh yeah, I loaned your machine to several friends
and family -- Here are some reports:
"I would say my dogs are well trained, but they suffer
severe anxiety when no body is home. This machine
quietened them almost instantly - still they barked,
in the beginning, but just one or two barks. Then
slowly they just stopped... beginning to bark, then
instantly stopping.
It took only 2 weeks, and we did nothing.
Truly amazing;
I have recommomeded it to my family, and perhaps
they will buy one. Its a shame you don't sell them publicly".
-- Kylie, 30, on dogs Lili (11 yr mutt bitch) and Sheeba (4 yr
Rotty X)
"My two dogs barked insanely when someone would
go past. With this little machine they quietened right
down, and even became partly obedient, and we did
nothing!
Great stuff.
We ran it only on the lowest setting, too!"
- Ed, 65, on his two male Dobermans, 5 yrs old.
Well I have some more, and am collecting more,
but I only have one machine so its a slow process.
Once again I say thankyou Jerry! My family was
on the verge of giving them up! :(
But no longer :)
=====================
"Linda" <llindal...@msn.com> wrote in message
news:3c317fe4.03010...@posting.google.com...
> I have been trying for the last 18 months to help my
> dog who became fear aggressive at 18 month of age.
> I do not know what started the problem but he came
> aggressive first with dogs and then began lunging and
> snapping at people. Until this time he loved everyone
> and could play with any dog. He was well socialized
> ad I took him with me everywhere.
> At 13 months he passed the Canine Good Citizens
> Test except he could let me leave him. I had used
> clicker training to teach him manners and tricks but
> it was not working on his aggression problem.
> I took him to vets who suggested a low protein diet,
> trainers who charged $800 to only make him worse.
> They tried to use a prong collar and he froze, urinated
> and tried to climb on my head to help him. they then
> suggested a shock collar I knew this approach was not
> working as he was becoming more aggressive.
> I took him to an animal behaviorist with Ph.D. 400 miles
> away who told me to "KEEP HIM SAFE" and read a book
> on the fearful canine. I tried another trainer who tried to
> use a nylon chock collar but it only made him worse.
> I read hundreds of books,"CULTURE CLASH", "DOG
> ARE FROM NEPTUNE", "THE OTHER END OF THE
> LEASH", ETC looking for help. We finally went to Purdue
> University Small Animal Behavior Clinic and they said he had
> fear aggression, punishment would not work, use the gentle
> leader and when out walking and he got stressed have the
> people stop until he could get in control using treats,and work
> on clicker training.
> At that point I knew more about clicker training and using the
> gentle leader than they did! Nothing was working--he would
> not come when I called him and would run away when I tried
> to catch him. I was afraid to walk him even in the neighborhood
> as we had become that "mean dog and women who hasn't
> trained her dog"
> I went to four trainers in both Michigan and Florida who
> were trainer/specialists in aggression and the last two were
> so afraid of him they could not approach him. No one said I should
> give up on him and kill him but they would say
> "You have to realize he is dangerous and you are
> responsible for him."
You got LUCKY, Linda... They coulda got Sunshine
DEAD on us. Damned near did... too.
> As last resort I tried the internet again--I had had on
> going discussions with trainers from Triple Crown and Dr
> Meister with out any help-and I found the ad to Doggy Do
> Right and messaged Jerry to ask if this might help my dog.
> He said solving the aggression problem was EZ but I could
> not believe him even when I downloaded the manual.
> The name of the method was right I was at my Wits End.
> I had been working for 18 month!
> Using the can sound three time he came, and still comes
> from anywhere with the command-"comegoodboy" Next
> I tried the can when walking him--when he saw a dog three
> blocks away he went off-lunging and snapping-I used the
> can sound and he looked at me like uhn?
> I used it three more times and we got to the other dog-
> -the looked at me wagging his tail--the other person
> looked at me like why are shaking that can but just walked
> on by.
> When ever I try to explain about the sound people look at
> me like "you must be out of your mind"
> The results can make a believer!!! Three weeks since
> beginning the Wits End Training Manual program I walked
> him without the gentle leader in a busy shopping area with
> many dogs. He just seemed to not notice any one.
> When people talked to him or ask his name he would
> look at then and wag his tail and let then pet him.
> I still can not believe the change in him--we can now
> enjoy life out in public.
> If I had not found the Wits End method I know there
> was no hope for him and he would have hurt someone
> Through all this he never growled at me, guarded his
> toys or food or showed any sign of aggression with me.
> My goal is to get the message out to all dog lovers that
> dogs can be trained fast, easily and problems solved with
> out force, pain, food or anything but sound and praise!!!!
> I know most people would have given up on him a long time
> ago but he was and is my life. Solving the problem was EZ
> but only with the right approach-sound and praise.
> I know because I tried everything else and nothing worked!!!
================================
------- Message -----
From: Linda Daniel
To: Jerry Howe
Sent: Monday, January 06, 2003 1:06 AM
Subject: Re: - Re: dog aggression
Thanks for writing--I would be happy to do almost anything
to get your approach out to dog owners as I know it would
save so many lives. I know at times I was so frustrated I
thought of giving up on Sunshine but of course I never would
have but many people would have. The world just does not
know you can train a dog in just a few sessions and actually
solve problems.
We will be here until late April and we really have no plans-
-just to enjoy the warmth and sun of Florida, so any time
you could meet us would be great. I drive so I would be
happy to come to you anytime anywhere!
We went to Celebration today and two little poodles got
right into his face and he just sat there--I GOT a little
scared but he handled it just fine.--a couple of times people
would ask his name and want to pet him and he just went
to them tail wagging and rolled over for them rub his tummy.
He really just is not concerned about people passing, even
those on rollerblades! I have always used a gentle leader
in public but he spent most of time rubbing his face on the
grass--today I used his collar and he was so much happier!!
Only problem is he will stop to smell and I can not get
stopped soon enough to keep the leash loose. He never
pulled ahead of me but when he gets into smelling I have
a hard time getting him going--at times I think he could
smell a blade of grass for 10 minutes.
I can never thank you enough for giving Sunshine back!!!!!
I wrote to Purdue and told them about him being able to
walk in a crowd with out the /gentle leader and not having
a problem with other people and dogs.
I told them their advice did not work. Their advice was
to use the gentle leader at all times and when he was
around people or dogs to have him sit and reward with
treats--one really good suggestions was to have people
coming toward us stop when he got stressed or aroused
and not move until we backed away-
- can you just see me yelling at people to stop on the street
until I get his attention with treats.
They also suggested the possibility of using drugs-prozac-
but thought he was too dangerous as the drug would make
him less fearful and then he might attack or become more
sure of himself and become dominate aggressive. Just had
to share their great advice with you but I am sure you have
heard it all--even I am becoming an expert on bad advice.
----------------------------------
A non dog owner writes:
Dear Jerry-
I just wanted to let you know how wonderful your Doggy Do
Right product is. I was skeptical at first, but have been
tremendously pleased.
As you know, we had a neighbor's dog that was extremely
bothersome, at times barking loudly for 3 hours straight.
Within a few days, the barking decreased, and now it is just
the occasional bark. this dog lives approximately 500 feet
away, and even at that distance, the machine has done
wonders.
You were always available and patient to answer my
questions, and now I can be in my own home without going
nuts from the barking. As an added pleasure, all the other
minor barking nuisances in the neighborhood have stopped
as well.
Quiet is wonderful! Thank you.
Pam Graves
===========================
Another non dog owner tested my machine at the request
of one of his friends who wanted his opinion as to the efficacy
of my machine. He loves the concept, as it mirrors his approach
to educating difficult children:
----- Original Message -----
From: George von Hilsheimer, Ph.D.
Sent: Tuesday, May 07, 2002 3:21 PM
Subject: [GVS]doggydoright
I just had a nice talk with the man who invented the
"DoggyDoRight" device.
If you know someone working at a shelter etc who
wants to quieten the dogs in the neighborhood then
this is an ideal present for them - and he will sell it
at a discount.
He sounds like someone we all know who has
no sense at all about money. Nice, nice man.
"DoggyDoRight" may be obtained from http://www.doggydoright.com
I now have four locations at which the thing has
worked, so I recommend it.
Yap yap yap no more! I have zero financial interest in this.
George
============
Thank you,
Jerry Howe,
Director of Research,
BIOSOUND Scientific
Director of Training,
Wits' End Dog Training
1611 24th St
Orlando, FL 32805
Phone: 1-407-425-5092
Phone: 1-888-BIOSOUND (1-888-246-7686)
MSN Messenger: doggyd...@hotmail.com
http://www.doggydoright.com
ThePupp...@EarthLink.net
Jayjay
<di...@dogstuffagain.fslife.co.uk> wrote:
>
>"Jayjay" <jjf...@notmail.com> wrote in message
>news:3ee56c82....@news.cis.dfn.de...
>> On Mon, 2 Jun 2003 23:19:11 +0800, "shaper" <nom...@nowhere.com>
>> wrote:
>[..]
>
>> Other people have success with food rewards or clicker training,
>> although I believe they will also use some form of correction with the
>> leash/collar in order to deter the unwanted behavior. Not sure
>> though.
>****************
>
>Not at all ~ the lead should be there for prevention of accidents only (like
>jic you aren't looking when a bike shoots past, and your dog wants to give
>chase), not as a method to 'correct' your dog. The idea is that the dog
>*wants* to work with you and walk beside you because you share mutual trust
>and respect. If uoi hurt your dog, in any way shape or form you are breaking
>down that trust-bond which is vital for good training.
Maybe an explaination is in order.
My correction training was not in an effort to "hurt" the dog. In
most cases the dog is working with you. But, if the dog pulls on the
leash while walking, you pull back. But if the dog is walking nicely
next to your knee, then he is getting verbal praise, and the leash is
"limp" at the collar. The training using a collar is not meant to
"break" a dog's spirit. Its to build a bond.
Like you said - if you are walking your dog and a bike goes by, and
the dog choses to go after the bike, a tug at the leash would remind
the dog to not chase the bike and come back to your side like a good
dog.
Same with "Come". You say "come" (and do nothing with the leash) if
the dog looks and responds to you, you praise it till it comes to you
and sits infront of you. But if you say "come" and the dog ignores
you, you give a quick tug at the leash. Make the dog respond, then
praise him till he gets to you. Once the dog is there, praise with
lots of attention. Build a trust with the dog so that the dog wants
to come to you and wants to be loved by you. Make him think you are
the most awesome creature in the world and NOTHING else is worth his
attention over you.
That way, when the dog is chasing a squirrel and running into a busy
road, and you say "Fido, Come" ... he's going to hear your voice and
say "Oh, That is my human, the most awesome creature in the world and
I'd do anything to please him, I'm going to turn aroudn and go see him
right now!" and he will turn and obey and come running to you for love
and praise, and you will treat him like he is the most special thing
in the world. You give him what he is hoping for - love and
attention from you, and you've just saved him from being squished by a
mack truck.
That is what was meant as "correction" in the training I've read and
used. I'm not saying this is the best form of training, although
around here it appears to be the most commonly used.
The Puppy Wizard
"Gwen Watson" <gw...@ig.utexas.edu> wrote in message
news:3EDB6E20...@ig.utexas.edu...
>
> shaper wrote:
> > I am wanting to get a rhodesian ridgeback soon and really
> > would like to know the best and most effective way of training
> > without using food treats or violence (i do agree with what the
> > guy says about food treats and violence) Thanks for any
> > intelligent replies
> I would suggest visiting several dog trainers
Would you now? Care to recommend WON?
> and training facilities in your local area.
Oh. Like HOWE you went to your shock
collar seminar, gwen honey?
> Find out when the first class begins to each one of
> the places you have selected and be there taking notes.
Dog training classes usually teach BAD INFORMATION.
> Make a special note to how many dog/handler team attended
> at the first class. Then attend the last two classes(as obsever)
> and again make a note at how many dog/handler teams remain.
Well gwen honey, that sounds very scientific. Are you
still taking your meds? The Puppy Wizzzard remembers
when you weren't quite so ILL, you said you would endorse
The Puppy Wizzzard's FREE WWW Wits' End Dog Training
Method Manual if The Puppy Wizzzard wasn't so MEAN to
your pal lying frosty dahl...
> If the numbers are close to the same with few "drop-outs"
> that is significant.
Duh-Oh?
> Often a trainer that is not that experienced or one
> that is not well versed and flexible will have many
> "drop-outs" by the end of the class.
That so? Suppose he was so good everybody graduated
EARLY??? You're a halfwit, gwen honey. You're a liar
and a dog abuser.
> Often times this is caused because the trainers is a "one size fits"
> all kind of trainer.
BWWHAHAHAHAHAAA!!!
You mean, dogs do not train CONSISTANTLY if you use
EFFECTIVE SCIENTIFIC METHODS?
You think EXPERT dog trainer VARY their methods to
suit the individual PREFERENCES of the dogs???
You're despicable, gwen honey.
> Also the trainer is not upbeat enough to keep handler/dog
> team enthused about learning.
BWWWAAJAJAJAJAJAJAJAJAAA!!!
See your pals carol levy's MYSTRY training with your
pal booby maida. He sent her to his COMPETITOR an
her dog came HOWET ATTACKING HER!!!
> JMO
Yeah. Your HUMBLE opinion is that of a DOG ABUSER and LIAR.
> Also decide what you are shooting for and what you feel most
> comfortable with in training styles, ie Purely Positive methods
> only(which typically do involve treat rewards,
That's FALSE.
> especially in the beginning.
You're a liar and a dog abuser. You shock your dogs
and lock them in boxes. Your dog has SEIZURES because
you mishandle him...
> Gwen
You can't post her noMOORE, gwen honey.
> > > Jerome Bigge writes:
> > > I do know that hitting, hurting
> > > your dog will often make the
> > > dog either aggressive or a fear
> > > biter, neither of which we want to do.
> > And neither does anyone else,
> > Jerome. No matter
> > what Jerry Howe states.
"Just Want To Second Jerry's Method For
Dealing With This I've Suggested It To Quite
A Few Clients Now And It's Worked 'EVERY
TIME The Very First Time' - marilyn, Trainer,
33 Years Experience.
> > You're scary Marilyn.
> > Marilyn must be quite a disturbed individual. I
> > feel very sorry for her and her family.
"His Amazing Progress Almost Makes Me Cry. Your Method
Takes Positive Training To The Next Level And Should Really
Be Used By All Trainers Who Call Themselves Trainers. Thank
You For Helping Me Save His Life," Kay Pierce, Professional
Trainer, 30 Years Experience.
> > BUT, giving you the benefit of the doubt, please
> > provide a quote (an original quote, not from one of
> > Jerry Howe's heavily edited diatribes) that shows a
> > regular poster promoting or using an abusive form of
> > training.
BWWWWEAAAHAHAHAHAAAA!!!
> > --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
"Well, Jack Did Hit My Dog. Actually I'd Call It A Sharp Tap Of
The Crook To The Nose. I Know Jack Wouldn't HaveDone It
If He Thought Solo Couldn't Take It. I Still Crate Him Because
Otherwise I Fear He Might Eat My Cat," melanie.
"Many People Have Problems Getting The Pinch Right, Either
They Do Not Pinch Enough, Or They Have A Very Stoic Dog.
Some Dogs Will Collapse Into A Heap. About The Ear Pinch:
You Must Keep The Pressure Up" sindy "don't let the dog
SCREAM" mooreon.
"Warning: Sometimes The Corrections Will Seem Quite Harsh And
Cause You To Cringe. This Is A Normal Reaction The First Few
Times It Happens, But You'll Get Over It." mike duforth, author:
"Courteous Canine."
"I have heard advice stating that you should pre-load
your dog for Bitter Apple for it to work as efficiently
as possible. What does this mean?
When you bring home the Bitter Apple for the first time,
spray one squirt directly into the dog's mouth and walk
away. The dog won't be too thrilled with this but just
ignore him and continue your normal behavior."
--Mike Dufort
author of the zero selling book
"Courteous Canines"
Yeah. When I preload my dog's mouth with bitter apple,
suppose I don't get used to being stupid and cruel, mikey?
Then HOWE do I train my dog if I can't HURT it?
"I Dropped The Leash, Threw My Right Arm Over The
Lab's Shoulder, Grabbed Her Opposite Foot With My
Left Hand, Rolled Her On Her Side, Leaned On Her,
Smartly Said "GRRRR!" And Neatly Nipped Her Ear," sionnach.
And from terri willis, Psychoclown wrote:
"Nope. That "beating dogs with sticks" things is
something you twisted out of context, because you
are full of bizarro manure."
"Get A 30"- 40" Stick.You can have a helper wield the
stick, or do it yourself. Tougher, less tractable dogs
may require you to progress to striking them more
sharply," lying frosty dahl, ethical breeder, expert
trainer.
"Pudge Was So Soft That She Could And Would Avoid
A Simple Swat On The Rump With A Riding Crop," lying
frosty dahl, discoverer of CANNIBALISM in Labradors.
"John ran out, grabbed Blackie by the collar, and gave the
dog two or three medium whacks on the rump with a training
stick while holding him partially off the ground. John then
told Blackie to sit, ran back to the line and cast him back to the
dummies."
We're gonna teach folks THAT AIN'T NORMAL...
"BethF" <da...@alaska.com> wrote in message
news:ugc7us3...@corp.supernews.com...
>
> "Frank" <flma...@netscape.net> wrote in message
> news:d2f1624e.02061...@posting.google.com...
> > dfrnt...@aol.comMURK-OFF (Leah) wrote in message
> news:<20020610173326...@mb-fx.aol.com>...
> > > >"brianev" bri...@attbi.com wrote:
> > > > I ENJOYED reading your book, and
> > > > AGREED with what you had to say.
> > > > I find it sick to hear what people
> > > > do with their dogs.
> > > Keep in mind that everything he says that the regular
> > > posters of this ng do to their dogs are lies.
> > > All of it. Every last bit.
> > All of it?
> > Ear pinching?
> > Shock collars?
> > Spiked chokers?
> > The regulars lie more in their denials than
> > Howe does in his accusing of them.
> Uh, Frank? Who do you see denying anything?
> Its quite interesting that a newbie like yourself
> would see denials when everyone has Jerry
> killfiled and therefore don't even read his posts, let
> alone respond to them.
"Rocky" <2d...@rocky-dog.com> wrote in message
news:Xns92FEEC097E4AAau...@130.133.1.4...
> Linda wrote in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
> > When you
> > compare using sound and praise to solve a problem
> > with using shock collars, hanging, and punishment
> > how can you criticize the use of sound?
> There's nothing more to be said, then.
> You've made up your mind.
> But you've impressed me by mentioning that you're a
> professor with 30 years of experience. So, can you
> cite some examples of people recommending "shock
> collars, hanging, and punishment"?
> --
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
"Rocky" <2d...@rocky-dog.com> wrote in message
news:Xns92FDD80D96A67au...@130.133.1.4...
> Melinda Shore wrote in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
> > How many regulars' dogs who have been in training
> > for more than a month or two do you think *can't* do
> > the stuff that you're talking about?
> My Dogs were trained in the womb!
> Send me money and I'll tell you How.
> --
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
"Rocky" <2d...@rocky-dog.com> wrote in message
news:Xns92FE730764918au...@130.133.1.4...
> Melinda Shore wrote in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
> > But he's the one producing the training MATTerial.
> Ack. You just gave him some moore ammunition.
> --
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
"Melinda Shore" <sh...@panix.com> wrote in message
news:avju0e$la2$1...@panix2.panix.com...
> In article <3E1D741D...@nhgri.nih.gov>,
> Suja <span...@nhgri.nih.gov> wrote:
> >Rocky wrote:
> >> My Dogs were trained in the womb!
> >> Send me money and I'll tell you How.
> > No, no, no, it's HOWE. It's all in the spelling
> > (and you can send me the money instead)
> But he's the one producing the training MATTerial.
> --
> Melinda Shore - Software longa, hardware brevis -
> sh...@panix.com
> If you send me harassing email, I'll
> probably post it
Is that true, Marilyn?
Of course not~ but THIS IS:
"Chin CHUCK absolutely doesn't mean slap," professora gingold.
terri willis, Psychoclown wrote:
"Nope. That "beating dogs with sticks" things is
something you twisted out of context, because you
are full of bizarro manure."
Sez on our FAQ'S pages at K9 Web you should knee the
dog in the chest, step on its toes, throw him down by his
ears and climb all over it like a raped ape growling into
his throat and bite IT on his ears, or leash pop it on a
pronged spiked pinch choke collar or pop him in the
snout with the heel of your palm.
"Marshall Dermer" <der...@alpha1.csd.uwm.edu> wrote in message
news:a3h5qn$mra$1...@uwm.edu...
> >Di,
> I don't believe you mentioned a particular kind of
> training. If you are interested in training retrieval
> behavior than do consider our own Amy Dahl's:
> The 10-Minute Retriever : How to Make a Well-Mannered,
> Obedient and Enthusiastic Gun Dog in 10 Minutes a Day
> by John I. Dahl, Amy Dahl
You failed to mention your pals the dahls are proven liars and
dog abusers, professor "SCRUFF SHAKE:"
"I Would Never Advise Anyone To Slap A Dog I Do Not
Believe There Is A Single Circumstance Ever, Where
Slapping A Dog Is Anything But Destructive," "I don't
see why anyone would want to choke or beat a dog, or
how any trainer could possibly get a good working dog
by making them unhapper, fearful, cowering, etc." sez
amy lying frosty dahl who continues:
> just $17.95 at Amazon.com.
> (Also, it is best to killfile posts from the few
> regulars here who are either ill-tempered,
> ill-mannered, or just plain ill.) --Marshall
amy lying frosty dahl continues:
"On the other extreme, the really hard dogs we have
trained require much more frequent and heavy
application of pressure (PAIN j.h.) to get the job
done,
This is continued resistance to your increasing
authority, and the job is not done until it is overcome
Get A 30"- 40" Stick.You can have a helper wield the
stick, or do it yourself. Tougher, less tractable dogs
may require you to progress to striking them more
sharply
Try pinching the ear between the metal casing and the
collar, even the buckle on the collar. Persist! Eventually,
the dog will give in
but will squeal, thrash around, and direct their
efforts to escaping the ear pinch
You can press the dog's ear with a shotshell instead of
your thumb even get a studded collar and pinch the ear
against that
Make the dog's need to stop the pinching so urgent that
resisting your will fades in importance.
CHUCK IT Under ITS Chin With That Ever Ready Right
Hand, As it catches on, try using the stick and no ear
pinch. When the dog is digging out to beat the stick
and seems totally reliable without any ear pinch, you
are finished
This is continued resistance to your increasing
authority, and the job is not done until it is
overcome" If the dog drops it, chuck it solidly under
the chin, say "No! Hold!"
(stay on the ear until it does) (perhaps because the
ear is getting tender, or the dog has decided it isn't
worth it)" lying frosty dahl.
"Chin cuff absolutely does not mean slap," professora
gingold.
From: Marshall Dermer (der...@alpha1.csd.uwm.edu)
In article <38CC0C43...@earthlink.net>
rhur...@earthlink.net writes:
>> -snip headers etc.
>> Yes. you're right, I really should find the book..
>> they don't have these books in the local pet stores I
>> frequent, where do you find Koehler?
>I got a nice large print copy from Amazon.com
>Richard
Please try Powell's Books in Portland Oregon. Their
URL is:
Unlike Amazon.com, Powell's keeps both new and used
books on its shelves. You can order books via e-email.
Koehler Method Of Dog Training
by Koehler, W R
Published by HOWELL BOOK HOUSE
(0876056575,
========================================================
Here's some quotes and some methods right outta your
koehler book professor "SCRUFF SHAKE and scream "NO!"
into its face for 5 seconds:"
"The Koehler Method of Dog Training (1962). New York:
Howell Book Book House(p. 52-53)."
Hanging
"First, the trainer makes certain that the collar and leash
are more than adequate for any jerk or strain that the
dog's most frantic actions could cause. Then he starts
to work the dog deliberately and fairly to the point where
the dog makes his grab. Before the teeth have reached
their target, the dog, weight permitting, is jerked from
the ground.
As in coping with some of the afore-mentioned problems
the dog is suspended in mid-air.
However, to let the biting dog recover his footing
while he still had the strength to renew the attack
would be cruelty. The only justifiable course is to
hold him suspended until he has neither the strength
nor inclination to renew the fight. When finally it is
obvious that he is physically incapable of expressing
his resentment and is lowered to the ground, he will
probably stagger loop-legged for a few steps,
vomit once or twice, and roll over on his side.
The sight of a dog lying, thick-tongued, on his side,
is not pleasant, but do not let it alarm you
THE REAL "HOOD"
"If your dog is a real "hood" who would regard the
foregoing types of protest as "kid stuff" and would
express his resentment of your efforts by biting,
your problem is difficult -- and pressing.
"Professional trainers often get these extreme
problems.
Nearly always the "protest biter" is the handiwork of
a
person who, by avoiding situations that the dog might
resent, has nurtured the seeds of rebellion and then
cultivated the resultant growth with under correction.
When these people reap their inevitable and oftentimes
painful harvest, they are ready to avail themselves of
"the cruel trainer" whose advice they may have once
rejected because it was incompatible with the sugary
droolings of mealy-mouthed columnists, breed-ring
biddies, and dog psychologists who, by the broken skins
and broken hearts their misinformation causes, can be
proven guilty of the greatest act of cruelty to animals
since the dawn of time.
"With more genuine compassion for the biting dog than
would ever be demonstrated by those who are "too kind"
to make a correction and certainly with more disregard
for his safety, the professional trainer morally feels
obligated to perform a "major operation."
"Since we are presently concerned with the dog that
bites in resentment of the demands of training, we will
set our example in that situation. (In a later chapter
we will deal with the with the much easier problem of
the dog that bites someone other than his master."
The Puppy Wizard
"shaper" <nom...@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:3edb...@quokka.wn.com.au...
> I have been reading these forums for a few weeks now,
Yeah. Dope slap yourself with this:
The Puppy Wizard
"Jayjay" <jjf...@notmail.com> wrote in message
news:3ee56c82....@news.cis.dfn.de...
> On Mon, 2 Jun 2003 23:19:11 +0800, "shaper" <nom...@nowhere.com>
> wrote:
> > I have been reading these forums for a few weeks now, and am
> > getting really >confused!!
>
> I have his manual and have read most of it, but have not "tried"
> anything from it yet.
Good for you!
> Although - I have to say that alot of what he's written is canned
> from many other forms of training.
That so? CITES PLEASE?
> I can say this.
Say anything you LIKE, you're a liar and abuser, jayjay.
> The obedience training I went through with my dog
> was a "correction" based training.
BWWAAHAHAHAHHAAAA!!!
> In that the leash and collar are used as training devices to correct
> any unwanted behavior
Yeah. You mean jerk choke intimidate and force restraint.
> and Praise in the form of nice words, good
> dogs, and lots of petting, love and bodyrubs
> for praise behavior
Yeah. The Puppy Wizzzard sez you don't supposed to TOUCH
the dog while PRAISING cause that'll distract the dog...
> and also, ignoring or detering some unwanted behavior (jumping,
> dog jumps, you turn around and ignore dog,
That's IDIOCY. See The Puppy Wizzzard's discussions with
lt joel HOWETA BUSINESS walton...
> till it sits nicely, then pet and praise, or if the dog chews on a
> shoe, remove the shoe and give the dog a toy he is allowed to chew on).
NO. That'll REINFORCE the behavior and REWARD the dog
for takin whatever. You're a simpleton and an abuser, jayjay.
> Overall, this works well.
NO, there's NO training in offering alternative behaviors... only
reward and reinforcement. That's HOWE COME HOWER
DOGS EAT POISON, jayjay.
> But needs time and training to develop long term behavior modification.
BECAUSE THE METHOD DON'T WORK, jayjay. THAT'S HOWE
COME lt joel walton is HOWETA BUSINESS.
> I also read 3 dog training books prior to our obedience training -
BWWAWHAHAHAHAAAA!!!
> as well as alot of research on the net, and they all suggested similar
> ways of training.
Yeah. NOBODY trains dogs nuthin like HOWE The Puppy Wizzzard
does. That's HOWE COME The Puppy Wizzzard's FREE WWW Wits'
End Dog Training Method Manual Students get 100% TOTAL CONTROL
NEARLY INSTANTLY.
> Also, "Good Dog U" on the Animal Planet network appears to
> use this form of training.
BWWAWAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAA!!!
> Other people have success with food rewards or clicker training,
The US Military Marine Mammals Corps boasts 10% FAILURE when
their c/t critters hit open water...
> although I believe
You hurt dogs and lie abHOWET it, jayjay.
> they will also use some form of correction
You mean PAIN, jayjay.
> with the leash/collar in order to deter the unwanted behavior.
That's animal abuse, jayjay. That's HOWE COME dogs TURN ON
THEIR HANDLERS. Ask leah, she's been bit 5 times.
> Not sure though.
The Puppy Wizzzard is SHORE. You're a liar and a dog abuser, jayjay.
> The key to all successful training that I've seen is -
YOU AIN'T SEEN NONE, jayjay...
> Successfully training the humans who are administering the training.
That so? You're freakin briliant, jayjay.
> Then spending the time to train the dog and continue, follow through
> and continue with training for a while.
You mean, it'll be a LONG TIME...
> Learning to get past your own instinctive reactions to some behaviors
> is helpful. Like, instinctive behavior to a biting dog - to hit back
> and yell at dog. But, this can cause further aggression and fear
> aggression.
That so?
> Funny though - PW claims that the training collar correction is
> harmful to dogs and that no collar should be used...
INDEED.
> yet in the manual it states to use a flat collar or chain choke
> collar for the more stubborn dogs.
You're a liar and a dog abuser, jayjay.
> The difference between his training and the training I went through,
YOU HURT YOUR DOG.
>he uses sound to create aversion/diversion tactics ...
That's a lie.
> I used leash correction,
NO. YOU HURT YOUR DOG.
> distraction/redirection
PAIN and INTIMIDATION, jayjay.
> and ignoring.
Yeah... that never works, jayjay.
> Other than that - the tactics are basically the same.
BWWAWHAHAHAHAAAA!!! Yeah.. the same.
Oh, bye the bye jayjay? You're a shock collar fan:
"Jayjay" <jjf...@notmail.com> wrote in message
news:3ea892ff....@news.cis.dfn.de...
> On Tue, 22 Apr 2003 19:44:36 -0400, "Jim Smith"
> <jpsmi...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >Hello all,
> >
> >We have two shih tzus, ages 1 & 2, mild tempered, but like to explore.
> >We're contemplating an underground wire invisible fence.
> >
> >My specific questions (feel free to answer any or all):
> >
> >1. Any difference between the store-bought (e.g., PetSafe, etc.) fences &
> >professionally installed fences, except for the obvious difference in
labor?
> >2. Dogwatch offers an FM system, everyone else is on AM frequencies. Any
> >real difference that any of you have personally experienced? (I
understand
> >the theoretical difference...I want to know if anyone's had poor success
> >with AM freq but success with FM).
> >3. What about problems w/ stray signals? e.g., pets getting shocked
> >inappropriately in the house or when far away from the fence?
> >
> >Thanks,
> >Jim
> >
>
> I'd say the professionally installed systems are better. That is my
> opinion.
>
> As for the fm vs am signal - no clue here.
>
> And, as for the stray frequency - we have recently found that MSNBC
> has a beep signal between their news reels. This beep is the same
> tone as our IF collar tone. It doesn't issue a shock, it is only the
> same as the warning tone. Either way - MSNBC is now banned from our
> house. Having a sound like that is 1. correcting the dog for no
> reason and 2. teaching the dog that the warning tone doesn't really
> mean anything.
>
Diana
> On Mon, 2 Jun 2003 17:01:21 +0100, "Diana"
> <di...@dogstuffagain.fslife.co.uk> wrote:
>
>
>
> Maybe an explaination is in order.
>
> My correction training was not in an effort to "hurt" the dog. In
> most cases the dog is working with you. But, if the dog pulls on the
> leash while walking, you pull back. But if the dog is walking nicely
> next to your knee, then he is getting verbal praise, and the leash is
> "limp" at the collar. The training using a collar is not meant to
> "break" a dog's spirit. Its to build a bond.
A choke chain is designed to hurt a dog. A sharp jerk around the neck is
more than a little unpleasant and can cause some very serious damage to the
neck vertebrae and windpipe. A prong collar is designed to be self
correcting in that if the dog pushes in to his collar it hurts so he steps
back and does not pull. To jerk the prong collar is downright inhumane. Even
a flat buckle collar can hurt a dog quite seriously so it should not be
jerked.
>
> Like you said - if you are walking your dog and a bike goes by, and
> the dog choses to go after the bike, a tug at the leash would remind
> the dog to not chase the bike and come back to your side like a good
> dog.
The lead is just something to hold on to, you should teach your dog how to
cope with such things as part of socialisation and teach the dog how to stay
calm even when a little frightened. In the meantime you have something to
hang on to him by and thereafter tyou have a visual cue to the rest of the
world that you have control of your dog.
By jerking back on a dog and hurting it when it is already upset by
something you are more than likely backing up the notion in the dogs mind
that he had good reason to be afraid. Far better to call him back by name
with a treat and keep him settled while the offensive <whatever> passes so
that he grows to learn that it is no big deal ~ otherwise mum/dad wouldn't
stop here to have a tasty treat. In a very edgy dog I would recommend that
you used a treat you could share ~ like a cheese sandwich ~ so that you have
a bit first and really show your dog how unbothered you are, so why should
he be acting so silly.
>
> Same with "Come". You say "come" (and do nothing with the leash) if
> the dog looks and responds to you, you praise it till it comes to you
> and sits infront of you. But if you say "come" and the dog ignores
> you, you give a quick tug at the leash. Make the dog respond, then
> praise him till he gets to you.
But then you are inflicting your will on him rather than him making the
decision that he wants to come to you. Personally, I would call him with
great enthusiasm and then if there was no response I would just wait until
he started to get bored of standing there doing nothing. As he started to
make a move to lie down or sit I would call him again with enthusiasm. When
he comes back you can give him all the fuss inthe world and to start with he
might even get a treat. Basically, you are letting him make the decision so
that decision will mean more to him.
Once the dog is there, praise with
> lots of attention. Build a trust with the dog so that the dog wants
> to come to you and wants to be loved by you. Make him think you are
> the most awesome creature in the world and NOTHING else is worth his
> attention over you.
But no matter what, but jerking him on the lead, you have hurt him ~ maybe
not a lot but a bit ~ that inflicting your will and power on him and that
breaks trust.
If you were to go up to your best friend and not say anything but grab their
shirt collar and start dragging them to you with an angry face ~ what
reaction would you expect?
I would pull back away from you and feel very concerned. Even if you pulled
me with a laughing, smiley face I would still feel concerned and unhappy
about your intentions ~ possibly so worried about the fact that you were
pulling me around that I might not be aware of what you were trying to get
me to do. If however you did not touch me and encouraged me to come over by
calling me and waiting for me to respond, inevitable I would do so because
you were my friend and I trusted that if I cam over we would then go on to
do something, otherwise you would not have been calling me.
The Puppy Wizard
really
> confused!!
> Putting aside the craziness of 'the puppy wizard' on these forums (he
> obviously makes no sense in any post i have read,
"I Got To Tell You His Amazing Progress
Almost Makes Me Cry. Your Method Takes Positive Training To The Next Level
And
Should Really Be Used By All Trainers Who
Call Themselves Trainers," Kay Pierce, Trainer, 30 Years Experience.
----- Original Message -----
From: <BNTD...@aol.com>
To: <jho...@bellsouth.net>
Sent: Sunday, May 12, 2002 7:22 PM
Subject: Re: Wits end Training
> Hi Jerry, Send the post to whom ever you
> wish to. Believe me I will keep you updated.
> I got to tell you His amazing progress almost
> makes me cry.
> Kay Pierce
----- Original Message -----
From: <BNTD...@aol.com>
To: <jho...@bellsouth.net>
Sent: Sunday, May 12, 2002 5:57 PM
Subject: Re: Wits end Training
> Jerry,
> I started Hunter on his training using your
> manual and training method.
> What a marked difference in just a few hours.
> I had him in my van and just using the sound
> with his remote trainer and telling him he's a
> good dog when he started looking like he was
> going to bark at a car worked great.
> He only barked 2 or 3 times. Then I took him
> to a spot that we had used years ago to train,
> Jerry I have hope that I can have my happy
> dog back soon. And not this tense unhappy
> creature I live with now.
> He was so happy today. I am looking forward
> to getting the machine so that he can stay
> that way.
> Thank you, Kay Pierce
----- Original Message -----
From: <BNTD...@aol.com>
To: <jho...@bellsouth.net>
Sent: Monday, May 13, 2002 7:54 PM
Subject: Making Progress
> Hello Jerry, Hunter and I started working
> the recall and family pack exercise today.
> On leash and in the house he has a perfect
> recall.
> And I think he really started to relax and
> enjoy himself I swear he was laughing.
> I had taught him to go to the heel position
> when he comes to me years ago. And over
> the past few months I have had to tell him
> to go there.
> Today he flew into the heel position each
> and every time without me saying a word
> to him about it. He has never bounced like
> that before.
> I trained him using conventional methods
> with a choker and pinch collar. Over the
> past few days we have been using his
> regular collar. I can tell that he enjoys it
> more.
> As I mentioned before I am a dog trainer
> and when I trained my latest dog I used
> all positive reinforcements techniques.
> When I trained for that I had been amazed
> at the results.
> Your method takes positive training to the
> next level and should really be used by all
> trainers who call themselves trainers.
> My Hunter is concentrating on me and not
> on the treat he thinks he wants. My other
> dog wants treats before she'll do anything.
> As soon as I get Hunter straightened out
> she's next.
> Thank you so much, Kay Pierce
===============
----- Original Message -----
From: <BNTD...@aol.com>
To: <jho...@bellsouth.net>
Sent: Thursday, May 16, 2002 7:56 PM
Subject: Minor setback
HOWEDY Kay,
> Hi Jerry, I think I had a minor setback
> today with Hunter.
No problem. We can fix it. Some "setbacks"
are anticipated.
> We were trying to do the heel the way it
> is outlined in your manual.
Yes, it's not an EZ exercise, and it takes
three or four short sessions to get the feel
for it. If it's confusing, that's GOOD. It's
supposed to feel "wrong" till you "get it
right" and then you'll know what you're
striving for. It'll come to you, just let it.
> I had done something wrong my poor
> boy was getting awfully confused.
As stated. No problem. Confusion is good,
means they're thinking.
He's probably got a lot to think about since
your methods have changed. I expect dogs
like this to "stall" and not work for a few
sessions too, don't worry about it.
He's testing you for consistency about not
being corrected for mistakes. Just follow
the method.
> We took a break and worked on the recall.
You'll know when the recall is right cause
you'll see the reflex and he'll respond before
even thinking about it.
Should have that down pretty good by
now I'd expect. On the outside you'd
have a perfect come if you did the H&C
and FPLX and come in four different places,
four times each, totaling about four hours.
> I think mostly i have to be trained as
> well as my dog.
Sounds to me like you're doin fine. Don't
deviate from the technique, it all pulls together.
> the hardest part is getting used to holding
> the leash the way that you say I should.
That's crucial. The handling of the lead is
usually our first mistake that triggers the dog.
Takes most folks a few days to get comfortable with it, just like the
heeling pattern.
Once you have the feel for it you'll know
and it'll become second nature. It's the first
thing I look for when working with or watching
a handler.
> Also could you let me know which sites
> you are posting all this on so that I can
> look it up.
I'm always on rec.pets.dogs.behavior and
cross post to the rest of the dog forums.
It's quite a circus and I'm pretty well hated
by the regulars.
They're predominantly devout koehler and
pronged and shock collar fans. They've got
a bad record of mishandling and killing dogs
and conspired for years to denigrate all non
force trainers in order to defend their force methods.
I access it through my isp's newsgroups
but if yours doesn't have them you can
easily post through google.com or any
of several free news feeders.
> Thanks Kay Pierce
They call my students liars, paid shills for
Jerry, and animal F'ers and teach folks to
choke shock crate and kill their dogs
when necessary.
I'll give you a brief story. A new poster with
a Mastiff of some sort asked about his bitch controlling out of control dogs
in the park.
He wanted better control just so he wouldn't
have an accident if she was challenged
protecting a dog in the group from a ruffian playmate.
She had near perfect behavior and was gentle, just a good mom dog doin a
good thing. They
told him she was a danger and he shouldn't
expose innocent dogs to her, especially being
the breed she is.
He took her to a behaviorist cause everybody
told him I'm a liar and my methods won't work.
The "behaviorist" worked with him and told
him to use a shock collar...
We could fix his dog's behavior to his
satisfaction in a couple short sessions
without ever hurting or intimidating her.
I can't figure out what's going through
these people's minds except fear.
Another dog went to the "behaviorist"
yesterday for dog fighting. I don't expect
she's alive today and the poster hasn't
written yet.
He was ready to kill her though, couldn't
risk his smaller dog, and of course the vet expenses... he just wanted to
confirm that
he's doin the right thing.
My last student with dog/dog aggression
was Nevyn, owned two pbX bitches who
had a bad habit of fighting together and
with strange dogs. Took 24 days to make
them PERFECT on and off lead at the
park or at home...
And two weeks later Valerie came by and
cured her dog/dog/handler aggressive dog
in 3 DAYS.
Enough! Jerry.
===================
----- Original Message -----
From: <BNTD...@aol.com>
To: <jho...@bellsouth.net>
Cc:
Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2002 6:50 PM
Subject: Head Hunter
> Dear Jerry, Just thought I would write to
> let you know how well Hunter is doing.
> He had been trained using the conventional
> methodsfor obedience. He had gotten used
> to a choker and a pinch collar.
> Alot of pain and a lot of jerking around.
> I had also tried using positive reinforcement
> methods that I had been trained in. He was
> so busy looking for the treat that he didn't
> really want to work.
> So I went back to using the pinch collar on
> him and also a gentle leader when we were
> in public.
> Slowly by degrees his behavior got worse
> and he did deserve his reputation as a
> vicious dog.
> The vet had recommended that he be
> put down. I was in a panic when I found
> your web site.
> Thanks! He is now the happy dog that I
> first started out with
> 5 years ago. I am a professional trainer
> and it was distressing to me that I could
> not help my own dog.
> I had been told that some dogs don't
> respond to any kind of training and that
> a vicious dog can never be trusted again.
> I disagree!
> Hunter is a sight hound and now I can take
> him with me and he doesn't chase cars as
> much anymore which is one of his main
> problems.
> We are working on the dog aggression
> thing. And I am confident that will be
> successful too.
> I also have your BIOSOUND machine
> and that too is working good.
> I know of several rescue groups that
> would benefit from it.
> This is rather long I know but it comes
> from the heart. My Head Hunter Green
> and I have together along time and have
> been through so much together.
> Thank you for helping me save his life.
> Kay Pierce
=================
> ----- Original Message ----- From: BNTD...@aol.com
> To: jho...@bellsouth.net
> Sent: Monday, June 03, 2002 2:22 PM Subject: Update
> Hi Jerry, Just an update to let you know
> how things are going. Hunter is doing
> really great thanks to you and your training
> manual.
> I cancelled the appointment with the new
> vet to get him re- evaluated for aggression.
> all weekend long I had kids run by the
> fence to try and make him bark. He didn't!
> Tonight we are going to PetsMart to work
> on his dog aggression but even that is
> going good for him. I have less and less
> of a problem with him in my vehicle.
> He doesn't try so hard to protect it from
> the four wheeled monsters that go by.
> I think soon I'll be able to leave his window
> open when we go down the road and he
> won't try to jump out at the cars that go by.
> I have shared the manual with several dog
> owners that I know and even a group of dog
> trainers.
> Thank you again. Kay
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jerry Howe" <jho...@bellsouth.net>
To: <BNTD...@aol.com>
Sent: Monday, June 03, 2002 4:59 PM
Subject: Re: Update
> Have your vet call me if he's interested in
> behavior. XXX/OOO. Jerry.
===================================
----- Original Message -----
From: BNTD...@aol.com
To: jho...@bellsouth.net
Sent: Saturday, July 27, 2002 10:26 PM
Subject: Re: THANKS ALISON! -
"Owners Should Always Be Given The Cold,
Hard Facts: They Should NEVER FEEL
GUILTY For Having An Aggressive Dog Euthanized."
Dear Jerry,
It's Kay here. I don't know who these people
are that maligning you and your training
manual but tell them from me that it does work.
Hunter is just doing so well even the people
who advocated putting him down are impressed with him.
I even started using it with the neighbor's dog.
I went over there to help her cut his nails. She started yelling at him for
growling at me.
I told her to tell him what a good boy he
is instead. Lo and behold he stopped
growling and I coulddo his nails. All 4 feet.
My dog Hunter was trained with the old jerk
and pull method and my other dog was trained
with treats. Hunter has gotten his enthusiasm
back for his training and I couldn't be more
pleased.
He even tried to kiss a child the other day.
Major break through.
This is the dog that a few months ago tried
to eat the kids through the fence. I can now
take him in the car with me again without him trying to chase cars through
the windshield.
So Jerry tell these people that the first rule of
dog training is Do No Harm.
The 2nd rule is whatever works without
breaking the first rule.
Aggressive dogs don't need to be put down.
Hunter was diagnosed aggressive and he is
going to stay alive and by my side where he belongs.
Thank you so much.
Kay
========================
----- Original Message -----
From: <Canines...@aol.com>
To: <BNTD...@aol.com>
Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 2:49 PM
Subject: Jerry the jerk howe
> Kay if you only knew what a jerk howe is
> it's either his way or your wrong no matter
> what training method you use. In a post re:
> adopting a shelter dog he stated "fu*k Buster"
> if you want I can refer you to the post.
> He's nothing but a blowhard and if he was
> closer I would pay him a visit. He used your
> post from July in his rebuttal
> Bob Garrett
----- Original Message -----
From: BNTD...@aol.com
To: Canines...@aol.com
Sent: Thursday, October 03, 2002 5:29 PM
Subject: Re: Jerry the jerk howe
I have to strongly disagree that Jerry is a jerk.
I am a dog trainer and I have been for almost
30 years.
I believe strongly in positive reinforcement.
My youngest was trained using treats and praise.
My oldest how ever was not trained that way
I am ashamed to say. The result was a very dangerous dog. He has problems
with barrier
and dominance aggression. A year ago he
put a hole in my leg that took weeks to heal.
When the vet and all of my friends advocated putting him down I found
Jerry's website.
I was looking for a natural way to calm my
dog and train him all over again as well.
You say Jerry is a jerk well I have talked to
him on the phone and consulted him about
his training methods.
I really grilled him before I even considered
using his methods.
He loves dogs. Using his methods my Head Hunter is now a very sweet dog. I
get kisses instead of growls.
When he growls or even looks like he is going
to bark I tell him what a good dog he is and
right away he shuts up, looks at me like I'm
nuts. But doesn't try to eat anyone.
I am happy to say that the vet thinks I have
him on major drugs. I don't! I still use a muzzle
on him when I have to take him to iffy places.
But hey I know he in now a sugar.
And the most important thing he is happy again.
It's a free country and you are entitled to your opinion. I have mine.
Sincerely
Kay
Melinda Shore
We're wandering into theology, and perhaps it should be
flagged as such.
>The lead is just something to hold on to, you should teach your dog how to
>cope with such things as part of socialisation and teach the dog how to stay
>calm even when a little frightened.
Out here in the real world, we have high expectations of our
dogs but those expectations don't extend to perfection. If
we've trained the dog badly, or if the dog makes a mistake,
it's a very, very good idea to make sure that the costs of
that mistake or bad training are minimal. It may be the
case that a dog dashes into traffic because the owner has
done a crappy job of training, but it's the dog that pays
the price when the owner fails to take proper precautions,
including leashing the dog in public spaces. I'll also note
that it's incredibly common for people to think their dogs
are better trained than they are.
Nice religious tract, though.
--
Melinda Shore - Software longa, hardware brevis - sh...@panix.com
If you don't understand how things are connected, the cause of
problems is solutions -- Amory Lovins
Diana
[..]
> Out here in the real world, we have high expectations of our
> dogs but those expectations don't extend to perfection. If
> we've trained the dog badly, or if the dog makes a mistake,
> it's a very, very good idea to make sure that the costs of
> that mistake or bad training are minimal. It may be the
> case that a dog dashes into traffic because the owner has
> done a crappy job of training, but it's the dog that pays
> the price when the owner fails to take proper precautions,
> including leashing the dog in public spaces. I'll also note
> that it's incredibly common for people to think their dogs
> are better trained than they are.
I totally agree ~ over here in the UK it is not at all uncommon to see
people walking their dogs alongside busy main roads and through the centre
of our village without leads, and it infuriates me.
Stone was attacked on more than a couple of occassions by dogs 'so well
trained' that they did not need a leash while on hers. I'm not saying don't
use one, quite the opposite use one if nothing else to make other people
confident that your dog is under control, but you should aim for a level of
training whereby the lead is nothing more than a visual show of control.
> Nice religious tract, though.
Sorry, I don't get?
I don't do religion in any way shape or form.
shelly
Diana <di...@dogstuffagain.fslife.co.uk> typed:
> A choke chain is designed to hurt a dog. A sharp jerk
> around the neck is more than a little unpleasant and can
> cause some very serious damage to the neck vertebrae and
> windpipe.
and would be an improper use of the tool. likewise, a buckle
collar, misused in the same fashion, could cause the same sort
of damage.
> A prong collar is designed to be self correcting
> in that if the dog pushes in to his collar it hurts so he
> steps back and does not pull.
i don't like to make statements like that unless i *know* them
to be true. have you ever tried a prong collar on yourself?
> To jerk the prong collar is
> downright inhumane. Even a flat buckle collar can hurt a
> dog quite seriously so it should not be jerked.
yes, jerking a prong collar (or any collar) is a misuse of the
tool.
> The lead is just something to hold on to,
sometimes. sometimes not. sometimes the lead can be used to
give a correction to the dog. and, please keep in mind that
correction does not equal abuse. i give my dogs all sorts of
corrections. some of them involve leashes or collars, but
most often they are verbal or visual.
> you should teach
> your dog how to cope with such things as part of
> socialisation and teach the dog how to stay calm even when
> a little frightened.
absolutely. sometimes that requires various sorts of
corrections.
> In the meantime you have something to
> hang on to him by and thereafter tyou have a visual cue to
> the rest of the world that you have control of your dog.
or not. i wish i could count the number of on-lead dogs i've
seen who have been totally *out* of control (my own included
on a few occasions).
> By jerking back on a dog and hurting it when it is already
> upset by something you are more than likely backing up the
> notion in the dogs mind that he had good reason to be
> afraid.
where on earth did Jayjay say s/he *hurt* his/her dog? AFAICT
that's something you dreamed up and, therefore, Jayjay is not
at all responsible for it.
> Far better to call him back by name with a treat
> and keep him settled while the offensive <whatever> passes
> so that he grows to learn that it is no big deal ~
i'd've gotten a real kick out of watching you try that with
elliott. i really would've.
> But then you are inflicting your will on him rather than
> him making the decision that he wants to come to you.
sometimes it's necessary to "inflict" one's will on one's dog.
life isn't all fun and games and there are times when the dog
needs to respond immediately without stopping to think about
whether or not they feel like obeying. believe me, my dogs
would rather chase Peter Cottontail than come to me. i just
can't compete with tasty bunnies. for my dogs' own good,
though, it's vital that they come immediately when called.
that required "inflicting" my will on them and i don't feel
the least bit badly about it.
> Personally, I would call him with great enthusiasm and then
> if there was no response I would just wait until he started
> to get bored of standing there doing nothing.
not me. when i call my dogs and they blow me off, i walk them
down. i want them to learn that coming when called is
inevitable. they do *not* have the option of coming whenever
they happen to feel like it. IMO what you're suggesting is a
good way to get a dog killed.
> But no matter what, but jerking him on the lead, you have
> hurt him ~ maybe not a lot but a bit ~ that inflicting your
> will and power on him and that breaks trust.
if you're jerking on the lead and hurting the dog, perhaps.
if you're giving a fair correction, no.
> If you were to go up to your best friend and not say
> anything but grab their shirt collar and start dragging
> them to you with an angry face ~ what reaction would you
> expect?
not a very good one. but no one in their right mind would
advise correcting a dog for something it hadn't yet been
taught. that would be abusive.
shelly (vicious Klingon hag tart) and elliott & harriet
http://home.bluemarble.net/~scouvrette
Jayjay
<di...@dogstuffagain.fslife.co.uk> wrote:
>
>But no matter what, but jerking him on the lead, you have hurt him ~ maybe
>not a lot but a bit ~ that inflicting your will and power on him and that
>breaks trust.
>
>If you were to go up to your best friend and not say anything but grab their
>shirt collar and start dragging them to you with an angry face ~ what
>reaction would you expect?
Agreeing to disagree here - as it is obvious that you are taking my
words out of context and do not understand where I'm coming from or
trying to go. Maybe it is my communication skills to you that is not
understood. Either way.. there is no point in discussing it with
you, as we have 2 different theories.
Tell me this. Hypothetical situation.
Dog is "for some reason" off leash and supposedly "trained". Dog
chases rabbit into busy street.
You call dog. "Fido, Come" and fido decides to sit and think about
it.
WHAM! <Splat>... There's Fido lying in the road - guts splattered
about after the Mack truck hit him.
Why, because I never corrected him, I used your method to train the
"Come" and didn't issue any correction. I trained him that if he
didn't come on my first call, that he could just hang around a bit and
I'd call him again and he could come when I wanted him to.
Now, with the way I was trained, we were taught to train the dog to
come on the FIRST call and IMMEDIATELY on the first call. No
hesitation. That way - You train your dog, you use precations so
that accidents like the above don't happen. (as in only letting dog
off lead in safe, controlled enviromnents" yet, if for some reason the
dog is off lead and the above situation happens, you call "FIDO COME"
he turns, comes to you, doesn't hesitate and is saved from that truck
hitting him and splattering his guts and you losing your faithful
compainion.
The Puppy Wizard
That's exactly HOWE COME you can't train your dog...
"Jayjay" <jjf...@notmail.com> wrote in message
news:3eeb781c....@news.cis.dfn.de...
The Puppy Wizard
"Melinda Shore" <sh...@panix.com> wrote in message
news:bbg0eq$5ov$1...@panix2.panix.com...
The Puppy Wizard
"Diana" <di...@dogstuffagain.fslife.co.uk> wrote in message
news:bbg17u$gck$1...@news5.svr.pol.co.uk...
The Puppy Wizard
"shelly" <scouv...@bluemarble.net> wrote in message
news:bbg19t$8qqjs$1...@ID-39167.news.dfncis.de...
> > > Jerome Bigge writes:
> > > I do know that hitting, hurting
> > > your dog will often make the
> > > dog either aggressive or a fear
> > > biter, neither of which we want to do.
> > And neither does anyone else,
> > Jerome. No matter
> > what Jerry Howe states.
"Just Want To Second Jerry's Method For
Dealing With This I've Suggested It To Quite
A Few Clients Now And It's Worked 'EVERY
TIME The Very First Time' - marilyn, Trainer,
33 Years Experience.
> > You're scary Marilyn.
> > Marilyn must be quite a disturbed individual. I
> > feel very sorry for her and her family.
"His Amazing Progress Almost Makes Me Cry. Your Method
Takes Positive Training To The Next Level And Should Really
BWWWWEAAAHAHAHAHAAAA!!!
> > > >"brianev" bri...@attbi.com wrote:
> > All of it?
> > Ear pinching?
> > Shock collars?
> > Spiked chokers?
> Linda wrote in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
"Melinda Shore" <sh...@panix.com> wrote in message
news:avju0e$la2$1...@panix2.panix.com...
> In article <3E1D741D...@nhgri.nih.gov>,
> Suja <span...@nhgri.nih.gov> wrote:
> >Rocky wrote:
> >> My Dogs were trained in the womb!
> >> Send me money and I'll tell you How.
> > No, no, no, it's HOWE. It's all in the spelling
> > (and you can send me the money instead)
> But he's the one producing the training MATTerial.
> --
> Melinda Shore - Software longa, hardware brevis -
> sh...@panix.com
Diana
> Tell me this. Hypothetical situation.
> Dog is "for some reason" off leash and supposedly "trained". Dog
> chases rabbit into busy street.
> You call dog. "Fido, Come" and fido decides to sit and think about
> it.
>
I wasn't being hostile in ny way that I can see ~ but it looks again like
there is a cross communication here, which backs up my earlier point:
Ecven when two people are communicating using the same medium (eg posting on
a list) in the same language we can still get confused. I am posting from
the UK whereas the majority here are from the US and we do use slightly
different languages and look at things from a slightly different perspective
so mis-interpretations do happen and sometimes people feel that they have
been victimised or set upon for no reason.
> WHAM! <Splat>... There's Fido lying in the road - guts splattered
> about after the Mack truck hit him.
I didn't say let your dog off on a road either ~ I just said that as far as
everything I have read and experienced that working towards training your
dog to do something because he wants to is more reliable than teaching a dog
that if he doesn't obey he will be forced to do something he has already
shown he doesn't want to do.
>
> Now, with the way I was trained, we were taught to train the dog to
> come on the FIRST call and IMMEDIATELY on the first call. No
> hesitation. That way - You train your dog, you use precations so
> that accidents like the above don't happen. (as in only letting dog
> off lead in safe, controlled enviromnents" yet, if for some reason the
> dog is off lead and the above situation happens, you call "FIDO COME"
> he turns, comes to you, doesn't hesitate and is saved from that truck
> hitting him and splattering his guts and you losing your faithful
> compainion.
>
I found with Stone that if I so much went to touch her when she was doing
something she wanted to do and I didn't want her to do, it made her reaction
twice as strong in the opposite direction ~ eg, if she wanted to eat poo
and pulled her on the lead she would make her grab twice as quickly whereas
if I called her with all the enthusiasm I could muster, she's stop in her
tracks and come back to me (on a normal lead).
Other people may have come in to try and change my tone but all I was in for
was some friendly debate.
Jayjay
<di...@dogstuffagain.fslife.co.uk> wrote:
>
>"Jayjay" <jjf...@notmail.com> wrote in message
>news:3edc8b4d....@news.cis.dfn.de...
>> On Mon, 2 Jun 2003 18:02:53 +0100, "Diana"
>> <di...@dogstuffagain.fslife.co.uk> wrote:
>[..]
>
>> Tell me this. Hypothetical situation.
>> Dog is "for some reason" off leash and supposedly "trained". Dog
>> chases rabbit into busy street.
>> You call dog. "Fido, Come" and fido decides to sit and think about
>> it.
>>
>
>I wasn't being hostile in ny way that I can see ~ but it looks again like
>there is a cross communication here, which backs up my earlier point:
>
>Ecven when two people are communicating using the same medium (eg posting on
>a list) in the same language we can still get confused. I am posting from
>the UK whereas the majority here are from the US and we do use slightly
>different languages and look at things from a slightly different perspective
>so mis-interpretations do happen and sometimes people feel that they have
>been victimised or set upon for no reason.
>
I've learned on usenet - the more I deal with other "English" speaking
people from other countries - the more of a language barrier we really
do have. :-)
My perception of your tone (as you say below) kinda threw me. I want
you to know I do not harm chloe. Actually, I don't use the
chain/choke collar. That did no good and actually escallated the
problems of pulling. Same with the flat collar, so I used the prong
collar <wait, let me put on my flame proof clothing> and learned to
use it. In my obedience classes, the trainer promoted chokers, I
used the prong. (most larger breed owners used the prong, the trainer
did not want to draw attention to this, as she believes its good for a
large breed, but not for a small breed). Anyhow - my corrections
were gentle tugs, not strong ones. A strong one gets a reaction
alright - but not one I want to inflict on Chloe. I gentle one works
a million times better at correcting a pulling dog, than constantly
correcting a pulling dog with a choke or flat collar that can cause
damage to the windpipes.
>
>I found with Stone that if I so much went to touch her when she was doing
>something she wanted to do and I didn't want her to do, it made her reaction
>twice as strong in the opposite direction ~ eg, if she wanted to eat poo
>and pulled her on the lead she would make her grab twice as quickly whereas
>if I called her with all the enthusiasm I could muster, she's stop in her
>tracks and come back to me (on a normal lead).
This is a good example - as it is something I struggle with. Chloe
has 2 bad habits. 1. cat poo eating and 2. stealing the cat's
food.
This is one place I haven't used a collar/lead for correction, its
strictly been verbal corrections. (Authoritiative voice, not yelling
or abusive, but a firm tone and saying "Chloe, No" or "Chloe, Leave
It" ).
Chloe loves to dig and get the cat poo, we switched to a self cleaning
litter pan, yet she still goes to try to get it - dispite corrections.
Same with Cat's food. I'll see her walking into the room where the
cat's food is, I say "Chloe, No", she runs in, grabs a piece then runs
out and eats it. Darned if I didn't wish the cat had claws and could
just go swipe her one. (cat was a rescue and came to me declawed).
Getting a correction from the cat may train the dog. (don't know -
as the cat can't issue a correction, as the swat with the declawed paw
only means "play time" to the dog)
So, if verbal commands don't work, or if I physically walk into the
room when I catch her and try a distraction technique, and she stills
does the quick grab and steal.
Funny though - she'll come in from outside, I'll put food in her dish,
she'll go look at the cats (which is in a different room on the other
side of the house). She'll eat her dog food, finish, drink, then
make a beeline straight to the cat's dish to see what's in there.
She comes in from outside, makes a beeline to cat's dish, looks at
what's there.
Its not a training situation where I'd say I need to use a
leash/collar. I don't know how that would work. I can say I used
the leash/collar exclusively to teach Heel, (no pulling) and come and
"leave it" when on a walk. I used it a bit for sit and lay down.
But those two I also used food rewards and praise without leash/collar
on. (in the house training).
Marcel Beaudoin
@news.cis.dfn.de:
> I'll see her walking into the room where the
> cat's food is, I say "Chloe, No", she runs in, grabs a piece then runs
> out and eats it. Darned if I didn't wish the cat had claws and could
> just go swipe her one. (cat was a rescue and came to me declawed).
> Getting a correction from the cat may train the dog. (don't know -
> as the cat can't issue a correction, as the swat with the declawed paw
> only means "play time" to the dog)
>
> So, if verbal commands don't work, or if I physically walk into the
> room when I catch her and try a distraction technique, and she stills
> does the quick grab and steal.
>
Have you tried putting the cat's food in a place where chloe can't get at
it??
--
*******************************************
Marcel Beaudoin & Moogli
marcela...@hotmail.com
*******************************************
'Never send a monster to do the work
of an evil scientist.'
*******************************************
The Puppy Wizard
You're a dog abuser and a liar.
"Jayjay" <jjf...@notmail.com> wrote in message
news:3edc8b4d....@news.cis.dfn.de...
Jayjay
>jjf...@notmail.com (Jayjay) wrote in news:3edb954a.258291843
>@news.cis.dfn.de:
>
>> I'll see her walking into the room where the
>> cat's food is, I say "Chloe, No", she runs in, grabs a piece then runs
>> out and eats it. Darned if I didn't wish the cat had claws and could
>> just go swipe her one. (cat was a rescue and came to me declawed).
>> Getting a correction from the cat may train the dog. (don't know -
>> as the cat can't issue a correction, as the swat with the declawed paw
>> only means "play time" to the dog)
>>
>> So, if verbal commands don't work, or if I physically walk into the
>> room when I catch her and try a distraction technique, and she stills
>> does the quick grab and steal.
>>
>
>Have you tried putting the cat's food in a place where chloe can't get at
>it??
The cat cannot jump up on counters, so the only place to put it that
Chloe couldn't get are also places that Sabrina can't get to either.
We put it in the master bedroom's bath... but Chloe is allowed into
our bedroom, and we haven't blocked off the bathroom. It turned into
more of a personal choice, either we babygate the dog out of rooms, or
try to train the dog not to do things she shouldn't do (like stealing
the cat's food).
The funny thing is - like Diana was saying with her dog - she corrects
and that just makes the dog do it that much more, just quickly.
Chloe is that way with the cat's food. You say No, or Leave it, and
she does a quick grab and steal, then goes to the other room to eat
it.
The Puppy Wizard
Welcome to WWW Wits' End Dog Training School Of HARD KNOCKS....
Here's where you prove you're a idiot and a dog abuser.
When you DENY IT, you prove you're a liar, to boot.
The Puppy Wizzzard. <};~ ) >
"Jayjay" <jjf...@notmail.com> wrote in message
news:3edd99e8....@news.cis.dfn.de...
dianne marie schoenberg
>>Have you tried putting the cat's food in a place where chloe can't get at
>>it??
>
>The cat cannot jump up on counters, so the only place to put it that
>Chloe couldn't get are also places that Sabrina can't get to either.
That's actually a pretty easy problem to address... here's an earlier
post I wrote on this subject. (The original is at
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=8daajo%24bds%241%40user2.teleport.com)
I got this idea from a friend. I have installed 3" gate hooks
& latches on all of my interior doors. These cost about $2
at the hardware store. They have a 3" hook and an eyebolt
and are usually used to keep gates closed. However, they
can also be used to keep doors *open* :-).
This is a little hard to describe, but I screw the hook into
the door frame at about eye level, and the eyebolt into the
door about a half inch from the edge. When you put the hook
into the eyebolt, the door is held open just about 3", enough
for the kitty to slip through but too big for the dogs. Whe
you move, just unscrew both parts; the little holes are
easy to patch.
Another solution (one that's worked well for my with my current
dog) is to use a covered litter box and turn the opening towards
the wall. This probably won't work with a confirmed poop-eater
since they *could* push the box around so that they could stick
their heads in, but it's definitely worth a try with a dog that's
never acquired the habit.
Cat poop eating (like counter-surfing) is a very hard habit to
break because it is *so* self-reinforcing for dogs.
HTH,
Dianne
Jayjay
schoenberg) wrote:
>Jayjay <jjf...@notmail.com> wrote:
>>>Have you tried putting the cat's food in a place where chloe can't get at
>>>it??
>>
>>The cat cannot jump up on counters, so the only place to put it that
>>Chloe couldn't get are also places that Sabrina can't get to either.
>
>That's actually a pretty easy problem to address... here's an earlier
>post I wrote on this subject. (The original is at
>http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=8daajo%24bds%241%40user2.teleport.com)
>
> I got this idea from a friend. I have installed 3" gate hooks
> & latches on all of my interior doors. These cost about $2
> at the hardware store. They have a 3" hook and an eyebolt
> and are usually used to keep gates closed. However, they
> can also be used to keep doors *open* :-).
>
> This is a little hard to describe, but I screw the hook into
> the door frame at about eye level, and the eyebolt into the
> door about a half inch from the edge. When you put the hook
> into the eyebolt, the door is held open just about 3", enough
> for the kitty to slip through but too big for the dogs. Whe
> you move, just unscrew both parts; the little holes are
> easy to patch.
>
A little difficult with the pocket doors we have - oh and that also
prevents us from closing a door, as both the cat and dog learned
easily that just putting the paw under the door will open the door.
:-) I will have to go to the hardware store and see what we might be
able to rig up with for the pocket doors and long enough to allow the
cat to get through.
>Another solution (one that's worked well for my with my current
>dog) is to use a covered litter box and turn the opening towards
>the wall. This probably won't work with a confirmed poop-eater
>since they *could* push the box around so that they could stick
>their heads in, but it's definitely worth a try with a dog that's
>never acquired the habit.
I mentioned the cat can't jump on counters - reason being - she's
large and overweight (came to us that way when we rescued her, and
we've struggle to get her to lose the 4lbs she did, only to gain 2
back when we got the dog. She's currently 18lbs). Normal litter
pans, espceally those with lids, she's too big for, she has to back
in, stick her head out, do her business, then walk out, go in head
first to cover it up. It was a sad site, and she hated it. So
when we got Chloe and ran into the litter problem, we switched to the
Litter Maid (which is a self cleaning litter box) ... It works about
75% of the time, and Chloe has less of a chance of getting a treat,
although she still tries.
shelly
Jayjay <jjf...@notmail.com> typed:
> A little difficult with the pocket doors we have - oh and
> that also prevents us from closing a door, as both the cat
> and dog learned
> easily that just putting the paw under the door will open
> the door. :-)
i've done something similar to what Dianne suggested with two
of my pocket doors and it works great. it keeps the door open
enough for the cats to get through, but stops Little Miss
Smarty Pants from opening up the door.
this not only keeps the dogs out of the rooms with litter
boxes and cat food in them, but it allows the cats to have
dog-free zones. my crew get along pretty well, but two of my
cats are 14 years old and one of them in particular
appreciates being able to get away from the dogs.
another thing that might work, even with pocket doors, is to
put up a barrier (e.g. masonite or plywood) with a cat-sized
hole cut into the bottom of it. this won't work if your dog
is small enough to fit through the hole, though.
> I mentioned the cat can't jump on counters - reason being -
> she's large and overweight
how about graduated surfaces? i've placed a milk crate and a
lidded trash can beside my kitchen counter. that means the
cats only have to jump/climb about 12" at a time in order to
get on the counter.
> She's currently 18lbs).
wow! that's a whole lotta cat!
The Puppy Wizard
providing the escape route.
You're a idiot, a liar, and a dog abuser.
The Puppy Wizzzard. <};~ ) >
"shelly" <scouv...@bluemarble.net> wrote in message
news:bbgavg$94c4j$1...@ID-39167.news.dfncis.de...
The Puppy Wizard
"Jayjay" <jjf...@notmail.com> wrote in message
news:3edbaa6f....@news.cis.dfn.de...
> On 2 Jun 2003 19:14:34 GMT, dia...@u.washington.edu (dianne marie
> schoenberg) wrote:
>
> >Jayjay <jjf...@notmail.com> wrote:
> >>> Have you tried putting the cat's food in a place where chloe can't
> >>> get at it??
Yeah. Try puttin it next to the Gorilla Glue...
> >>The cat cannot jump up on counters, so the only place to put it that
> >>Chloe couldn't get are also places that Sabrina can't get to either.
That's IDIOCY.
> >That's actually a pretty easy problem to address...
That so? The Puppy Wizzzard sez you got NO solution.
>> here's an earlier post I wrote on this subject.
That so? This ought to be priceless...
> > The original is athttp://groups.google.com/groups?selm=8daajo%24bds%241%
> > 40user2.teleport.com)
> > I got this idea from a friend. I have installed 3" gate hooks
> > & latches on all of my interior doors. These cost about $2
> > at the hardware store. They have a 3" hook and an eyebolt
<snip carpentry>
Back to dog training, eh?
> A little difficult with the pocket doors we have -
That so? Barriers never work...
> oh and that also prevents us from closing a door,
Yeah. Your dogs run away from your HOWES if they get HOWET.
> as both the cat and dog learned easily that just putting the paw
> under the door will open the door.
iImagine?
> :-) I will have to go to the hardware store and see what we might be
> able to rig up with for the pocket doors and long enough to allow the
> cat to get through.
Yeah. GOOD LUCK!
> >Another solution (one that's worked well for my with my current
> >dog) is to use a covered litter box and turn the opening towards
> >the wall. This probably won't work with a confirmed poop-eater
> >since they *could* push the box around so that they could stick
> >their heads in, but it's definitely worth a try with a dog that's
> >never acquired the habit.
You mean, instead of TRAINING the dog to leave it alone?
> I mentioned the cat can't jump on counters - reason being - she's
> large and overweight (came to us that way when we rescued her, and
> we've struggle to get her to lose the 4lbs she did, only to gain 2
> back when we got the dog. She's currently 18lbs). Normal litter
> pans, espceally those with lids, she's too big for, she has to back
> in, stick her head out, do her business, then walk out, go in head
> first to cover it up. It was a sad site, and she hated it. So
> when we got Chloe and ran into the litter problem, we switched to the
> Litter Maid (which is a self cleaning litter box) ... It works about
> 75% of the time, and Chloe has less of a chance of getting a treat,
> although she still tries.
That's idiocy...
> >Cat poop eating (like counter-surfing) is a very hard habit to break
Yeah. Takes a few minutes, if you know HOWE.
> > because it is *so* self-reinforcing for dogs.
That's a lame excuse for not being able to train a dog.
> >HTH,
Yeah. That's brilliant. You're a liar and a dog abuser and
you got the same same problem as the OP, and you're
giving the same same advice that brought you to the
same miserable result the OP is havin....
> >Dianne
You can't post here noMOORE...
Date: 5/22/03 11:24:35 PM Eastern
Daylight Time
From: p...@cfl.rr.com
To: Witse...@aol.com
Well, let me tell you, your Wits' End
Dog Training Method works.
My dog, Dasie, Loves to chase chameleons
around the barbecue on the patio. I
used this system on four different occasions.
When she went out today, she looked
everywhere else but the barbecue.
Amazing, just amazing.
I will write to Amanda about the video.
I am really excited to learn more, and
understand. Maybe just a little reassurance
that I am going about it the right way.
Thanks again
Paul
> > =========================
From: Chris Williams (k9a...@webtv.net)
Subject: Re: Thank you Jerry Howe
Date: 2002-03-26 08:16:19 PST
Engrossing account, Anthony. Our best to Angel
and your family.
A friend, who socializes the kittens I've taken
from a feral cat colony, is using the DDR.
She reports far fewer panic problems than
she's had before.
============================
Chris Williams writes:
"The FREE Wits' End Dog Training Method manual
I do find valuable. Much of it I recognize as what
I've always done without thinking of it as "training".
New stuff, I've used. His anchoring technique erased
the last of Mac's fireworks trauma,"
====================
From: Paul B (NOSPAMpa...@clear.net.nz)
Subject: Re: Dog vs cat food (stealing cat food)
Date: 2001-03-03 22:18:03 PST
It's possible to teach a dog not to eat out of a cat bowl
without too much difficulty.
My dogs don't touch the food in the cat bowls although
Roz licks up any bits that have been dropped around the bowls
:-)
I used a can with stones in it to create a distraction
anytime the dogs tried to eat the cats food, followed
with immediate praise. It worked a treat.
The cats bowls are down all the time, usually there is
food left over but the dogs don't eat it, even if we go
out and leave the dogs with access inside through a dog door.
Paul
--
Obedience and affection are not related, if they
were everyone would have obedient dogs.
See the dogs, cats, us and pics of NZ etc at my homepage.....
http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/paulbousie/index.html
Updated regularly (last time 23 Jan 01) so keep coming back!!!
====================
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Don Fitz [mailto:donf...@hotmail.com]
> Sent: Friday, 28 February 2003 11:53 a.m.
> To: Ama...@DCFWatch.com; paulb...@clear.net.nz
> Subject: Jerry Howe
>
> Hi,
> Jerry uses your email in his posts and I was wondering
> what you have to say of his training methods.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul Bousie" <paulb...@clear.net.nz>
To: "'Don Fitz'" <donf...@hotmail.com>; <Ama...@DCFWatch.com>
Cc: <jho...@bellsouth.net>
Sent: Saturday, March 01, 2003 5:45 AM
Subject: RE: Jerry Howe
> If you have read the newsgroup posts then you must
> already have a good idea about what I think.
>
> His methods are the best I have come across. They
> aren't a quick fix but an entire training concept so if
> you aren't in for the long haul then don't bother. If
> you go his way then you have to forget all the other
> gibberish that other people spew, you have to believe
> in what you are doing, then and only then will you get
> the results.
> You can't combine his methods with other training
> methods, not until you understand what you are
> trying to achieve, and even then I have only ever
> combined about 2 other trainers ideas and even
> then just a snip of what they suggest which works
> in parallel with the Wits End concept.
> His methods make you as the trainer completely
> responsible for your actions, his methods make
> you think and work out your own solutions for
> any given situation, the default (the recall) is
> always there to get things under control again.
> His ideas and concepts teach you to work with
> the dog, to develop a team and a willingness to
> work together which is surely the best way to be.
> His methods don't use force or intimidation but
> they do totally emphasize the absolute importance
> of pack (family pack) structure, without that you
> can achieve almost nothing.
> If you are wondering how a dog can be trained
> without any negativity the answer lies in the recall,
> anytime your dog doesn't follow through with a
> request you call him / her to you, since the recall
> is the first thing taught and it is taught in such a
> way it becomes a reflex the dog always returns
> to you, it is a subordinate position for the dog and
> we release it by asking for a "heel" which is an
> "equal" position.
> His methods are very good, his understanding of
> dogs is excellent, I recommend his methods.
> Paul Bousie
==============================
"Paul B" <pan...@zfree.co.nz> wrote in message
news:3c2a...@clear.net.nz...
> Bollocks, the manual has no dangerous suggestions at
> all, people who find the manual useful are those that
> don't need to control a dog to satisfy their own ego
> but simply want a well behaved dog that is easy to
> live with. I would suggest the people who follow the
> advice in his manual are people who have already
> tried other inefficient methods and are fed up with
> the poor results.
> The more I think about the methods he suggests the
> more sense it makes, the biggest problem is people
> believe they have to be in control of the dog, tell it
> whats right and wrong, dogs don't understand
> our values and I don't believe they are capable of
> understanding them either, so to train them we use
> methods they understand. That means abstract
> training, doing sometimes what appears to
> almost be the opposite of what makes sense to us.
> If you are purely result orientated then you will not
> find Jerry's manual much use, if you love your dogs
> and love to work WITH them then his manual is
> your dream come true. Distraction and praise works
> with any dog, when you sit back and really think about
> it, it's very obvious why.
> When a dog is properly distracted (and praised) of a
> particular behaviour then that behaviour very quickly
> becomes unfulfilling so the dog will no longer have any
> interest in pursuing it, whether we are about or not,
> thats the key to stopping garbage can raids and food
> stealing etc etc, no force, no bad dog, just distracting it
> in an appropriate manner that it no longer wishes to
> pursue that behaviour.
> Better than hiding the garbage can eh?
> Paul
=======================
<"Terri"@cyberhighway
> Hey, do like me, and killfile Jerry.
> He has millions of people aleady reading
> his posts and watching him extract his soggy
> foot out of his mouth!
> Out of these MILLIONS, I've only seen 2
> naive childs come forward and actually
> believe in his training manual.
Robert Crim writes:
I assume that I and my wife are those two
naive childs since I freely admit to having
read and, I hope, understood enough of the
manual and it's counterparts by John Fisher
and the posts of Marilyn Rammell to believe
and use it.
This naive child would like to say thank you
to both Jerry and Marilyn for putting up with
a constant barrage of really infantile crap at
the hands of supposedly adult dog lovers.
The other naive child (LSW) has to put up with
the nagging idea that if people like them had
been posting earlier, maybe we would not have
had to hold the head of a really magnificent
animal in our arms while he was given the
needle and having to hug him and wait until
he gasped his last gasp.
To my mind, "naive" is believing you can
terrorize a dog into good behavior. Naive is
believing that people that hide behind fake
names are more honest than people that use
their real names.
Naive is thinking that dilettante dog breeders
and amateur "trainers" like Joey
(lyingdogDUMMY, j.h.) are the equal or better
than those that have studied and lived by their
craft for decades.
"Stupid" is believing that people do not see
kindergarten level insults for what they are.
Really stupid is believing that people like
Jerry Howe and Marilyn Rammell are going
to just go away because you people act like
fools. Why do you act like fools? I really
have no idea, and I don't really care.
> And, to date: I've not seen ONE come
> forward and actually admit to buying and
> having success with his little black box.
I think I'm going to get one myself for Father's
day and take it down to the Animal Shelter for
their use and testing. You would never believe
the results, so you'll never know.
> Anyone by now that doesn't see a scam man
> coming by Jerry's posts deserves to get what
> is sure to be coming to him! LOL!
I don't see a "scam man", so I guess I and Longsuffering
Wife and Rollei will just have to get what we deserve, eh?
As Joey (Dogman) says, "poor Rollei.".......right.
>Terri
Yes it was, and that is sad.
Robert, Longsuffering Wife and Rollei (do I get to listen
to the box first?)
--------==========================----
> Thanks Jerry!
=====================
============
==============================
Jerry says:
HOWE'S the baby's seizures?
parentadlitem says:
better
Jerry says:
got any idea how much better?
parentadlitem says:
not really
parentadlitem says:
she doesn't do em here that i see
Jerry says:
amazing
Jerry says:
when's the last time she seized with you?
parentadlitem says:
weeks ago?
Jerry says:
but before the machine it was daily?
parentadlitem says:
every minute!
Jerry says:
does her mom use it at her HOWES?
parentadlitem says:
yup
parentadlitem says:
i yelled at her about it
Jerry says:
ask her when's the last time she saw a seizure for me
parentadlitem says:
k . she's sleepin now, ill talk to her tonight, she's comin over
Jerry says:
yeah... that's pretty good stuff
parentadlitem says:
yup
parentadlitem says:
i love mine
parentadlitem says:
no barkin the neighborhood at all anymore
parentadlitem says:
ever
Jerry says:
right
parentadlitem says:
once in a blue moon some distant dog will bark
parentadlitem says:
but all the neighbors dogs are quiet
Jerry says:
when you hear that distant dog throw the machine on
parentadlitem says:
we do
parentadlitem says:
it's really rare though
=================
Thank you,
Jerry Howe,
Director of Research,
BIOSOUND Scientific
Director of Training,
Wits' End Dog Training
1611 24th St
Orlando, FL 32805
Phone: 1-407-425-5092
Phone: 1-888-BIOSOUND (1-888-246-7686)
Phone: 1-888-WITSEND (1-888-948-7363)
MSN Messenger: doggyd...@hotmail.com
Email: ThePupp...@EarthLink.Net
The Puppy Wizard. <}TPW;-) >
ANY QUESTIONS, DUMMIES?
,-._,-,
V)"(V
(_o_) Have a great day!
/ V)
(l l l) Your Puppy Wizzzard. <}YPW;~} >
oo-oo
The Puppy Wizard
Your dogs run away from your HOWES...
"dianne marie schoenberg" <dia...@u.washington.edu> wrote in message
news:bbg7mq$11sa$1...@nntp3.u.washington.edu...
The Puppy Wizard
Have you finished your repeat puppy training class?
"Marcel Beaudoin" <m...@privacy.net> wrote in message
news:Xns938E94F6CADFBmb...@130.133.1.4...
The Puppy Wizard
HOWEDY jayjay,
"Diana" <di...@dogstuffagain.fslife.co.uk> wrote in message
news:bbg327$7tu$1...@newsg3.svr.pol.co.uk...
>
> "Jayjay" <jjf...@notmail.com> wrote in message
> news:3edc8b4d....@news.cis.dfn.de...
> > On Mon, 2 Jun 2003 18:02:53 ?, "Diana"
> > <di...@dogstuffagain.fslife.co.uk> wrote:
> [..]
>
> > Tell me this. Hypothetical situation.
> > Dog is "for some reason" off leash and supposedly "trained". Dog
> > chases rabbit into busy street.
The trainer didn't do so good.
> > You call dog. "Fido, Come" and fido decides to sit and think about
> > it.
Well, that's not likely to happen if the dog is trained.
> I wasn't being hostile in ny way that I can see ~ but it looks again like
> there is a cross communication here,
Yeah... words are a big problem for liars.
> which backs up my earlier point:
INDEED?
<snip chit chat>
> > Now, with the way I was trained, we were
> > taught to train the dog to come on the FIRST
> > call and IMMEDIATELY on the first call.
BWWWAAHAAAAHAHAHAAAA!!!
He means HURT the dog...
> > No hesitation.
CAUSE YOU HURT THE DOG.
> > That way - You train your dog, you use precations so
> > that accidents like the above don't happen.
I.e., HURT the dog.
> > (as in only letting dog off lead in safe, controlled
> > enviromnents" yet, if for some reason the dog is
> > off lead and the above situation happens, you call
> > "FIDO COME" he turns, comes to you, doesn't
> > hesitate and is saved from that truck hitting him and
> > splattering his guts and you losing your faithful compainion.
That ain't gonna happen if you HURT the dog to train IT.
> I found with Stone
You abused Stone.
> that if I so much went to touch her when she was doing
> something she wanted to do and I didn't want her to do,
> it made her reaction twice as strong in the opposite direction ~
INDEED? Just like HOWE it sez in your FREE copy of
The Puppy Wizzzard's FREE WWW Wits' End Dog
Training Method Manual.
> eg, if she wanted to eat poo and pulled her on the lead
> she would make her grab twice as quickly
Yeah... CORRECTIONS DON'T WORK.
> whereas if I called her with all the enthusiasm I could muster,
> she's stop in her tracks and come back to me (on a normal lead).
Yeah.. normal.
> Other people may have come in to try and change
> my tone but all I was in for was some friendly debate.
You've got a long history of being a liar and dog abuser, lush.
> Diana
You can't post her noMOORE.
The Puppy Wizzzard. <};~ ) >
Paul B
"shaper" <nom...@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:3edb...@quokka.wn.com.au...
> I have been reading these forums for a few weeks now, and am getting
really
> confused!!
> Putting aside the craziness of 'the puppy wizard' on these forums (he
answers
> anyone just pastes nonsensical dribble after each line of someones post,
>snip
) but
> is there actually anyone who has used the methods in this manual with any
> success ?
> I am wanting to get a rhodesian ridgeback soon and really would like to
know
> the best and most effective way of training without using food treats or
> violence (i do agree with what the guy says about food treats and
violence)
> Thanks for any intelligent replies
>
>
>
I have tried his methods and found them extremely effective. There are
several areas in particular I found useful. He teaches you and the dog to
pay attention to each other all the time. He teaches you to have such good
communication with your dog you don't need leash corrections or shock
collars or even food, you can get the dogs attention any time you like by
calling it or with a snap of your fingers. When I trained both my dogs to
"heel" or walk close to me I ended up going to the parks and teaching them
without a lead at all, that ensured I had to use good communication and was
unable to be tempted to use the lead to correct them. Another part of the
training I agree with is not using the "policeman" approach, where you tell
a dog "no" or react with it in such a way that you become involved in the
behaviour (by trying to stop it), this approach often results in a dog
ceasing the behaviour when you are about but doing it when you aren't (bin
raiding, counter surfing etc). Basically you are taught to make your dog a
good friend who likes and wants to work for you for the pleasure of working
for you (setting the hierarchy is included in this), teach it to recall
reliably, then to do everything else (sit, stay down etc etc). Unwanted
behaviours are addressed as they occur. If you understand what you are
trying to achieve and are prepared to work with it you can get great
results.
Paul
Leah
>Often a trainer that is not that experienced or one
>that is not well versed and flexible will have
>many "drop-outs" by the end of the class. Often times this is caused
>because the trainers is a "one size fits" all kind of trainer. Also the
>trainer
>is not
>upbeat enough to keep handler/dog team enthused about learning. JMO
I have to disagree, but not entirely. Of course, the expertise of the trainer
(both in handling dogs and leading a class) will have an impact on the drop-out
rate.
But... there are a lot of other factors that aren't under the trainer's
control.
From what I've seen so far, two of the biggest reasons people drop out of class
are:
* They realize after 2-3 sessions that they really can't get away without
working with the dog at home. They budgeted one hour a week for this dog, and
just don't have any more time to give him (currently 17% of my drop-outs).
* The dog is doing so much better half-way through that they don't feel the
need to finish out the class (26%).
And then there are those dogs who are given away or die (22%).
One of the best motivators for good attendance is also not under my control.
Sometimes the personalities of the owners so mesh that we all become a little
"family" for 8 weeks. These are the classes where phone numbers are exchanged
at the end of class, and everybody brings gifts for everybody else's dog.
These are usually the classes that *I* miss the most, too. They're the most
fun.
I've yet to have a bad personal evaluation from my students. They comment that
the class was fun, that they are recommending it to their friends, and that
they learned a lot. Yesterday, one of my graduates wrote on the evaluation,
"Leah is so passionate about each dog, she makes you feel that your pet can do
it." Another student faxed a very complimentary evaluation to the head office.
And yet, 24% of all my students have dropped out before the last class.
I'd suggest that the OP talk to some of the trainer's students, instead of
using the drop-out rate as a benchmark.
PetsMart Pet Trainer
See My Furry Family At:
http://www.angelfire.com/fl5/dogs0
The Puppy Wizard
"Leah" <dfrnt...@aol.comMURK-OFF> wrote in message
news:20030603082128...@mb-m18.aol.com...
Leah
>Other people have success with food rewards or clicker training,
>although I believe they will also use some form of correction with the
>leash/collar in order to deter the unwanted behavior. Not sure
>though.
Nope. The only correction I use is a no-reward marker (a word that tells the
dog he did not earn a reward) and withdrawal of attention.
When loose-leash walking or heeling, the dog corrects himself if he pulls on
the leash. But the leash is not used to get him or keep him in position. It's
held stationary, with no tension unless the dog pulls, and he is coerced with
praise and treats. When he lunges ahead, the owner comes to a full stop so
that he doesn't get to the "reward" he pulled towards.
That's the extent of physical correction in my class.
(By the way, I've been using the "leash around the waist" method in a couple of
test classes with smaller pups. So far so good.)
jayjay
"Leah" <dfrnt...@aol.comMURK-OFF> wrote in message
> >jjf...@notmail.com (Jayjay) wrote:
> >Other people have success with food rewards or clicker training,
> >although I believe they will also use some form of correction with the
> >leash/collar in order to deter the unwanted behavior. Not sure
> >though.
>
> Nope. The only correction I use is a no-reward marker (a word that tells
the
> dog he did not earn a reward) and withdrawal of attention.
>
> When loose-leash walking or heeling, the dog corrects himself if he pulls
on
> the leash. But the leash is not used to get him or keep him in position.
It's
> held stationary, with no tension unless the dog pulls, and he is coerced
with
> praise and treats. When he lunges ahead, the owner comes to a full stop
so
> that he doesn't get to the "reward" he pulled towards.
>
Which type of training is that? clicker? or food? (I have lots to learn)
> That's the extent of physical correction in my class.
>
> (By the way, I've been using the "leash around the waist" method in a
couple of
> test classes with smaller pups. So far so good.)
We used the leash over the shoulder method so that you had no hands on the
leash and your hands behind our back so you were not tempted to correct the
dog, unless the leash came off the shoulder and you had to let him go to the
end of the leash.
The Puppy Wizard
"jayjay" <jjf...@notmail.com> wrote in message
news:bbihvo$9teg0$2...@ID-87431.news.dfncis.de...
>
> "Leah" <dfrnt...@aol.comMURK-OFF> wrote in message
> news:20030603120848...@mb-m13.aol.com...
> > >jjf...@notmail.com (Jayjay) wrote:
> > >Other people have success with food rewards or
> > > clicker training,
Yeah. The US Military Marine Mammals Corps reports
10% FAILURE soon as their professionally trained critters
hit open water and FREE FOOD. Like your dog passin a
garbage can or seein a kat... 10% FAILURE, GUARANTEED.
> > > although I believe they will also use some form of
> > > correction with the leash/collar
Only incomptent trainers and animal abusers choke dogs.
> > > in order to deter the unwanted behavior.
Only incompetent traniers and animal abusers try to
deter a DUMB ANIMAL from untrained behavior.
> > > Not sure though.
WELCOME to WWW Wits' End Dog Training School
Of HARD KNOCKS.
> > Nope. The only correction I use is a no-reward marker
> > (a word that tells the dog he did not earn a reward)
You mean, you entertain a negative interaction
during a pleasant learning experience.
> > and withdrawal of attention.
To foster cooperation and frienship.
> > When loose-leash walking or heeling, the dog corrects
> > himself if he pulls on the leash.
You mean IT CHOKES ITSELF, cause IT LIKES to CHOKE.
> >But the leash is not used to get him or keep him in position.
Right... just choke.
> >It's held stationary, with no tension unless the dog pulls,
To CHOKE IT.
> > and he is coerced with praise and treats.
Right. The dog thinks IT CHOKED ITSELF.
> > When he lunges ahead, the owner comes to a full stop
To OPPOSE the dog and increase anxiety.
> > so that he doesn't get to the "reward" he pulled towards.
RIGHT. The BARRIER FRUSTRATION of the leash is
the same same as behind a fence...
> Which type of training is that? clicker? or food?
Oh? That's lying dog abusing Punk Thug Coward training.
> (I have lots to learn)
Don't bet on it, you don't have the intellect to HOWEtwit
the cunning of the domestic puppy dog.
> > That's the extent of physical correction in my class.
Yeah. Seems leah got a slight problem for LYIN.
She's not allowed to teach choking in her store.
But she does, and she sells pronged spiked pinch
choke collars and GL necktwisters, but doesn't
admit it... cause she's a pathological liar and
habitual dog abuser.
> > (By the way, I've been using the "leash around the waist"
> > method in a couple of test classes with smaller pups.
That's IDIOCY. The leash must never restrict the dog.
> So far so good.)
So far, she's gettin 25% DROP HOWET and MAYBE
50% of the balance succeed at least till they reach 8
or 18 months, and then they'll rebel like Madigan did.
> We used the leash over the shoulder method
That's idiocy.
> so that you had no hands on the leash and your
> hands behind our back so you were not tempted
> to correct the dog, unless the leash came off the
> shoulder and you had to let him go to the end of
> the leash.
INDEED. TO CHOKE ITSELF.
BWWWAAHAHAHAAA!!!
> > PetsMart Pet Trainer
The Puppy Wizard
"Leah" <dfrnt...@aol.comMURK-OFF> wrote in message
news:20030603120848...@mb-m13.aol.com...
> >jjf...@notmail.com (Jayjay) wrote:
> > Other people have success with food rewards
> > or clicker training,
Yeah. The US Military reports 10% FAILURE when their
marine mammals hit open water and FREE FOOD.
> > although I believe they will also use some form
> > of correction with the leash/collar in order to deter
> > the unwanted behavior. Not sure though.
You don't want to feel all alone. That's HOWE COME
you dog abusers congregate here.
> Nope.
Yeah. See "The SYNDROME" and "Books Of Chad."
> The only correction I use is a no-reward marker
> (a word that tells the dog he did not earn a reward) and
> withdrawal of attention.
That so? What's that pronged spiked pinch choke collar
and GL necktwister for?
> When loose-leash walking or heeling, the dog
> corrects himself if he pulls on the leash.
Now you're blamin the dog for HURTIN HISSELF???
> But the leash is not used to get him or keep him in position.
Right. It's just intended to hurt and intimidate IT.
> It's held stationary, with no tension unless the dog pulls,
On your pronged spiked pinch choke collar or you could
SHOCK IT if you prefer or even just strike IT with a training
stick and don't forget, PRAISE PRAISE PRAISE!
> and he is coerced with praise and treats.
Oh goody! Almost FORGOT.
> When he lunges ahead,
You JERK CHOKE AND HURT him, TO BE FAIR.
> the owner comes to a full stop so that he doesn't
> get to the "reward" he pulled towards.
The dog seldom pulls to get anywhere... they pull
because you mishandle the leash and reward pullin
with treats... or stop and fight with the dog which
likeWIZE rewards their BAD behavior.
> That's the extent of physical correction in my class.
Right. In the store where everybody can see and hear you.
Privately you tell people to get GL'S or pronged spiked pinch
choke collars. You prefer the prongeds of curse, casue the
dogs don't FIGHT it as much.
> (By the way, I've been using the "leash around the waist"
> method in a couple of test classes with smaller pups.
That's sheer idiocy. That'll teach the dog to hate being on lead.
> So far so good.)
YEAH. Your own dog bit you five times and destroyed
your HOWES and marriage.
> PetsMart Pet Trainer
HOWEDY Disciple Paulie,
"Paul B" <NOS...@clear.net.nz> wrote in message
news:3e3b...@clear.net.nz...
> "Leah" <dfrnt...@aol.comMURK-OFF> wrote in message
> news:20030131092641...@mb-fg.aol.com...
> > From what I've seen so far of dog training,
leah's experiences with dog training have been nuthin but
jerking and choking and neck twisting and crating her WON
dog who'd BIT her 4 times... and she's been bitten TWICE
at "work" at pest mart neck twisting and "teaching restraint
techniques" to stranger's dogs... to enhance the bond between
dog abuser and dog...
> > I have to admit that using aversives usually
Hurts, intimidates, and makes an enemy of your dog.
> > seems to train a dog FASTER.
Yeah... that's HOWE COME leah's been bitten 4 times
by her own dog and twice by stranger's dogs at pest
mart.
> > Using rewards works very well
NO. That's ridiculous. Dogs do not work for credit. Rewards
usurp the trainer's authority and teach greed and increase
anxiety... like HOWE COME leah got bit on her nose...
> > and very quickly on many dogs, and on others it doesn't.
That's idiocy. It doesn't work on SOME dogs because it SCARES
THEM. Dogs DO NOT share food, they steal scraps and run for
cover, and eat it with their back to the wall in a heightened state
of alert... When it does SEEM to work, it actually DISTRACTS
the dog from the lesson and prevents the dog understanding
the command in context.
> > The reward-based trainer
Uses food bribes because they can't make the dog interested
in THEM, because they don't know HOWE to condition a dog
to respond to praise...
> > has less power
Power? Like the Nazi Axis?
> > to motivate a dog who is nonchalant about praise,
Meaning HOWER expert dog lovers do not understand
basic conditioning exercises as taught in your FREE
copy of The Puppy Wizzzard's FREE WWW Wits' End
Dog Training Method Manual.
> > food
Food has no bearing on training, except as a DISTRACTION.
Unless you can control EVERY BIT of food in the world.
> > and toys.
Toys can motivate the dog, but that's appealing to greed
and distracts the dog from the lesson...
> > Using aversives
Makes dogs aggressive shy and gets SOME of them DEAD.
> > certainly does place more immediate power in the trainer's hands.
Power? TO FORCE CONTROL of a critter you CANNOT CONTROL
when you're not standing there ready to HURT or bribe someMOORE.
> There is another way.
Yeah. But HOWER dog lovers don't want to learn HOWE
to handle and train a dog without forcing them, cause that
takes away all their NAZI like power.
> The first thing you teach a dog is pay attention to
> you any time you ask and every time you ask,
Right. That just takes a few minutes if you understand
conditioning and timing, using a little praise and savvy.
> when you call it's name it's looking straight at you,
> when you say "good dog" it looks straight at you,
> teach that by using voice, sound and gestures only,
> no treats no physical contact.
Right...
> Then you teach the recall so it comes to you everytime
Takes a couple 15 minutes sessions to train a 100%
reliable come command as a conditioned reflex.
> and then you establish the family pack hierarchy with you
> firmly at the top, no question.
Right. The entire process takes about WON HOWER, maybe less.
> The recall is really important because you use that as a default
> when all else fails.
Right. That's HOWE COME we get 100% total non physical control,
nearly instantly, maybe FASTER.
> Lets say you ask the dog for a "heel" and it refuses 4
> requests, then I ask for a "come", the dog can't resist
> the come,
Right, because it's installed as a conditioned reflex.. not a
choice, not a response to a bribe, JUST BECAUSE the dog
has been CONDITIONED to respond without thinking.... just
reflex, cause that's just HOWE it IS.
> it's ingrained into it so it has to come.
Right. Most of HOWE dog lovers choke and shock and bribe
their dogs for months and years and often NEVER get a reliable
come command as The Puppy Wizzzard's FREE WWW Wits'
End Dog Training Method Manual Students achieve in an HOWER,
maybe less. Maybe it'll take four HOWERS, if you got a problem
with a dog that doesn't trust you. NO PROBLEM.
> The dog realises it has 2 options, either "heel" or "come",
> since sitting in front of me after a recall is a submissive
> position the dog will choose to "heel" which is an "equal" position.
Right. Everything got to be set up so we're not pressuring the
dog to try to be independent, but not allowing him to be "free"
either. Kinda like makin a move on a foxy young thing... not too
much of this and not too much of that and you get what you're
lookin for...
> That's an example of what I mean,
Yeah, sorta...
> no treats or punishment just 2 alternatives.
Right. Add a little intrigue, allow some distance and freedom,
add some sweet talk, a little conditioning, and you got it all.
> But those first 3 things are vital for it to work, attention,
> recall and hierarchy. With those 3 things training can be easy.
Same same for puttin moves on a foxy young thing... eh Disciple Paulie?
> > 1. The relationship with the owner.
The Puppy Wizzzard sez that goes out the goddamned window the
first time you use fear force or aversives scolding or punishment in
any way, any HOWE.
> > Granted that the dog who fears retribution will adore his owner.
No. That's FEAR... not adoration. That's HOWE COME dogs attack
their families... cause SOMEBODY HURT and INTIMIDATED them.
> > But he doesn't trust that his owner won't *hurt him.
Or spray aversives in their face or scruff shake or chin chuck him...
> > The positive punisher
Can't have that noMOORE. That's the kind of doubletalk that
keeps HOWER lying dog abusing Punk Thug Cowards HURTIN
and KILLIN dogs and tellin us they're TRAINERS...
> > has demonstrated to the dog that he absolutely *will* hurt him.
Yeah. So leah's gonna HURT the dog HALF as much as she'd LIKE.
> > A good handler with a biddable dog
Here on rpdb "biddable" means FEARFUL of gettin HURT someMOORE.
> > rarely administers corrections.
Cause the dog is FEARFUL of gettin HURT someMOORE.
> > But most of JQP (the people we "trainers" are trying to educate)
BWWEAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAAA!!!
leah is SO outta business. The Puppy Wizzzard is fixin to drop
the hammer on the head of pest mart... WATCH.
> > are not good handlers.
Because HOWER exxxperts keep fillin their heads with LIES.
> > And many of their dogs are not biddable.
That's HOWE COME leah teaches "restraint techniques" to
strange dogs at the pest store...
> > How many times have you seen people schooled
> > in leash corrections
YOU MEAN PEOPLE WHO JERK AND CHOKE DOGS?
That's not SCHOOLED, unless Marquis de Sade is teachin...
> > constantly jerking on their dogs' collars and yelling at them?
Yeah? Whatever happend to intermittent rewards?
NOBODY sez consistency means consistent like in, say, consistency, or you'd
NEED to HURT the dog EVERY
TIME it does BAD or you'll REWARD the dog BY NOT
HURTING IT EVERY TIME.
Catch22, dog abusers...
> > I see it a *lot* in the store from people who have been
> > to those types of classes.
The types of classes leah has been through with her off duty
pest mart trainers who taught Madigan to bite her 4 times...
> > The dog loves the owner,
NO, FEARS... remember? BIDDABLE MEANS FEARFUL.
> > but he also fears him and has lost a level of trust with him.
Yeah... so you'll reinstate the TRUST by HURTING the dog CONSISTENTLY.
THAT'S THE STATE OF THE ART OF DOG TRAINING.
THAT'S HOWE COME HOWER EXXXPERTS ARE
HOWETA BUSINESS.
> > *I'm using "hurt" in a very general sense.
The Puppy Wizzzard don't LIKE hurtin at all, general or
otherWIZE. EXXXCEPT for dog trainers and behaviorISMISTS.
> > It ranges from doing something unpleasant to the dog, like
> > squirting water in his face, to beating him.
And don't forget shocking spraying Binaca in their eyes, twisting
and pinching their ears and toes and locking them in boxes and
withholding "unconditional love" and "rewards" and tempting them
with bribes to achieve a sense of POWER and CONTROL.
> > I understand that
The entire affair is fueled by your own inferiority complexes and
fearful weak minds.
> > we're talking about punishments that deliver hurt on the
> > bottom end of the scale.
NO. We're talking about ANY negative interaction, including
withholding bribes until completion of a behavior, because
that raises ANXIETY and makes dogs do things like have
SEIZURES and BITE.
> The relationship with the dog in your charge is paramount.
Yeah. That all goes out the window soon as you put on a
collar and apply pressure or any act of forced control,
punishment, correction, fear, bribery, intimidation or any
negative interaction whatsoever.
> But as I said earlier I really believe the family pack hierarchy
> is extreme in importance.
That's achieved in a few minutes doin the Family Leadership Exercise
and installing the come command as a conditioned reflex.
> Nothing can really happen or start flowing until that is
> established.
RIGHT.
> It's amazing how many people think they are the "Alpha"
The alpha leads by example and subtle signals.
> (I hate that word but I'll use it)
Well, that's part of the problem. We got too many words with
too many meanings. LIKE "CHIN CHUCK ABSOLUTELY DOES
NOT MEAN SLAP," according to lying frosty dahl and professora
CHIN CHUCK.
Somebody's FREAKIN LYING about HOWE we're achieving status.
Ask professora gingold HOWE her dog accidentally bashed her
goddamned teeth down her freaking throat by means of allelomimetic
behavior...
> but aren't.
RIGHT.
> I was one of them,
Cause that's what you was TAUGHT by the EXXXPERTS.
> fortunately I realised it
Cause it wasn't workin...
> and took steps to get to the top.
You studied your FREE copy of The Puppy Wizzzard's FREE
WWW Wits' End Dog Training Method Manual and did every
thing OPPOSITE of the accepted WIZEdom.
> Once I did obnoxious dog behaviours stopped
PRECISELY... NEARLY INSTANTLY. SOMETIMES FASTER.
> and training become soooo much easier.
Yeah, if you call 100% total non physical control EZ.
> I would thought it would be important to teach people how
> to establish and maintain that hierarchy before anything else.
RIGHT. It's all in their FREE copy of The Puppy Wizzzard's
FREE WWW Wits' End Dog Training Method Manual...
> > 2. Wrong method for the wrong dog.
Yeah? If it's the wrong method for ANY dog, it's the wrong
method for ANY DOG.
> > What happens if a dog doesn't respond to rewards?
DOGS DO NOT WORK FOR CREDIT.
FORGET ABOUT REWARDS, THAT MAKES DOGS MISTRUSTFUL.
> > The rewards have to get better.
REWARDS HAVE NO BEARING ON TRAINING,
EXCEPT TO DECEIVE YOU.
> > The job becomes much harder for the trainer.
This entire discussion with HOWER lying dog abusing Punk Thug
Cowards is RIDICULOUS. The imbeciles like professor scruff
shake and professora gingold and the ethical breeder/trainers
like lying frosty dahl and lyingdogDUMMY and leah are mentally
deranged psychopaths OR THEY'RE FLAT OUT CRIMINALS...
not ethical anything's... anyHOWE.
> > He has to get very creative to discover what will motivate
> > the dog
That pronged spiked pinch choke collar and Binaca spray are pretty
good motivators, till you need to pinch an ear or toe... for a while.
> > and how to use that motivation.
Yeah... positive punishment Vs negative reinforcement and all
the other BULLSHIT HOWER EXXXPERTS talk about...
> > The dog is blissfully unaware of the agida he's
> > causing his trainer/handler.
That's false. The dog is PROVOKED to respond in
PREDICTABLE WAYS to circumstances of MISHANDLING HOWER EXXXPERTS rely on to
enhance the bond between
trainer and dog and mitigate the fear force and intimidation
they rely on WITH MOORE HURT...
> > But what happens if a dog isn't responding to punishments?
IMBECILE~!
> > Don't they have to become harsher?
ACCORDING TO koehler, that's MISHANDLING. Corrections
MUST BE EFFECTIVE THE FIRST TIME.
> > When fearful, a dog has a choice between fight or flight.
THAT'S HOWE COME YOU TEACH RESTRAINT TECHNIQUES
AND HURT DOGS ON PRONGED SPIKED PINCH CHOKE AND
SHOCK COLLARS AND "GENTLE LEADER" NECK TWISTERS.
> > What if he chooses fight?
YOU KILL IT, TO BE FAIR.
> > What can happen to that dog's perception of the handler?
"REINFORCEMENT NEVER ENDS."
> > Or people in general?
YOU HURT OR BRIBE THE DOG TILL IT BEHAVES.
AND YOU KILL IT IF YOUR MISHANDLING FAILS.
> > How *do* you subdue a dog with a hair-trigger temper?
YOU'D HAVE TO KILL IT... OR TRAIN HIM. YOU HURT AND KILL.
> > Other than increasing his level of fear or breaking his spirit?
YES, THAT'S WHAT THE CHIN CHUCK AND SCRUFF SHAKE
AND PRONGED SPIKED PINCH CHOKE AND SHOCK COLLAR
ARE FOR... THAT'S THE TOOLS OF THE BUSINESS OF HURTIN AND KILLING DOGS AND
CALLIN THAT TRAININ.
> > In general,
IN GENERAL, THAT'S MENTALLY DERANGED THINKING
OR CRIMINAL ACTIVITY TO RIP PEOPLE OFF FOR THEIR
HARD EARNED DOUGH...
> > I believe that a dog trained with positive reinforcement would
> > have a deeper level of trust in people and a less stressful
> > outlook on his world than a dog trained with positive
> > punishment.
Yeah. Let's forget the MALARKEY. You HURT dogs.
> > I'll sacrifice speed of training for that.
THAT'S IDIOCY. HURTING DOGS DOES NOT TRAIN THEM
FASTER, IT GETS SOME OF THEM DEAD...
> > It may take more patience, persistence, and consistency
> > to get the reliability,
THAT'S IDIOCY. YOU GOT NO BUSINESS HANDLING LIVE ANIMALS OR CHILDREN...
> > but it's worth the effort IMHO.
leah and her pals are EITHER mentally deranged,
CRIMINALLY INSANE... or SADISTS.
YOU FIGGER IT OUT.