Dog Whisperer Week on National Geographic
Judith Althouse
I am not trying to start the Cesar Millan deiscussion again, this is
just an FYI for those who do like him or if you have never seen him and
want to check him out. He will be on every night this week at 9pm EST
and 10 PM plus various other times. He has some new shows and some
repeats. It kicked off last night. He was dealing with fighting GSD.
I do believe there is a lady here that has one or more GSD's? Anyway,
they were the most beautiful dogs. They were pretty to watch and I am
not even a fan of the breed. He dealt with a Beagle and a Maltese that
wouldn't allow the wife to get in the bed. She (the wife) would have to
go in the TV room and sleep sometimes.....stand back Cesar I can handle
this one. The dog and the stupid ass husband!!!!!!!! Can you imagine???
Oh Hell no.......LOL
Be Free,
Judy
pfoley
"Judith Althouse" <judyal...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:20578-44C...@storefull-3258.bay.webtv.net...
======================
I am glad you told me that, I will watch; I missed a couple of his shows
these past two weeks. Some of his shows start off with repeats and then go
on to a new show. Thanks.
Judith Althouse
repeat @10, sometimes I watch them again and again if it is an issue
that I relate to. Enjoy!
Be Free,
Judy
Michael A. Ball
Althouse) wrote:
>Hi everyone,
> I am not trying to start the Cesar Millan deiscussion again, this is
>just an FYI for those who do like him or if you have never seen him and
>want to check him out...
Thanks for the "heads up"! Cesar isn't God, but he knows a lot more than
I do; so, I enjoy watching him.
Hint for folks who Do think Cesar is God: in television production, one
can edit out all of the things that fail to work or go haywire. Not
every problem can be corrected in 30 minutes. LOL
___________________
A dog's life is too short; their only fault really.
Human_And_Animal_Behavior_Foren...@hotmail.com
abusin active acute chronic long term incurable punk thug
coward mental case,
"Judith Althouse" <judyal...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:20578-44C...@storefull-3258.bay.webtv.net...
>
> Hi everyone,
You mean 'HOWEDY Gang Of Miserable Stinkin Lyin
Dog An Child Abusin Punk Thug Cowards And ACTIVE
ACUTE CHRONIC LONG TERM INCURABLE MENTAL
CASES Like Myself,' don't you, judith <{}: ~ ) >
> I am not trying to start the Cesar Millan deiscussion again,
That's a WIZE idea on accHOWENT of the last "discussion"
was derailed talkin abHOWET walkin dogs to EXXXPIATE
their anXXXIHOWESNESS.
> this is just an FYI
"FYI", we'll be DISCUSSIN jerkin chokin alphalpha rollin
bribin and offerin an witHOWELDIN attention affection
and unconditional love trust an respect <{}: ~ ( >
> for those who do like him
ONLY Lyin Dog An Child Abusin Punk Thug Cowards And
ACTIVE ACUTE CHRONIC LONG TERM INCURABLE
MENTAL CASES like yourself post here abHOWETS
UNLESS it's to say: "Thank You The Sincerely Incredibly
Freakin Insanely Simply Amazing Grand Puppy, Child,
Pussy, Birdy And Horsey Wizard. Your FREE MANUAL
SAVED MY DOG'S LIFE. G-D BLESS YOU" <{)' ~ ) >
LIKE THIS:
From: JesuMaria
To: jho...@bellsouth.net
Sent: Tuesday, July 30, 2002 12:51 PM
Subject: Re: Wits' End Dog Training Method Manual
+JMJFCA
Thanks, Jerry! All pages were received and
downloaded without any problems!
God bless you! Please know that you will be
remembered in all prayers and sacrifices, and
daily before the Most Blessed Sacrament here
in our Chapel.
With many prayers,
Sister Anthony Marie
------------
AND LIKE THIS:
"His Amazing Progress Almost Makes Me Cry.
Your Method Takes Positive Training To The
Next Level And Should Really Be Used By All
Trainers Who Call Themselves Trainers. Thank
You For Helping Me Save His Life," Kay Pierce,
Professional Trainer, 30 Years Experience.
---------
AND LIKE THIS:
"Anthony Testa" <testa52...@aol.com> wrote in message
We came home to almost $1,000 in damage.
Furniture, the blinds were all chewed and torn
down, etc. The next day we put her in the crate
again. This time we came home to a nice 2' x 3'
hole in our carpet in the middle of the living room,
right down to the cement.
I told my wife that we cannot afford to keep this dog.
We should go out and get a puppy.
<SNIP>
First, at no cost he sent us his manual. We started
doing exactly what he said to do in the manual.
Exactly as we did was was written, the results were
exactly as he said it would be. Then we purchased
the DDR.
This is an amazing god send to us.
First of all, Jerry sent it to us without paying. (thanks
for that gesture) This has such and AMAZING effect.
This testimonial is kind of winded so I will say this......
Jerry's product literally saved this dogs life.
Angel can be left alone during the day. NO CRATE. The
dog shows absolutely no sign of anxiety at all. Jerry
told us the product works immediately and it did! She
does not bark at all during the day except when the
mailman drops mail into the slot on the door.
The manual for training works exactly as it says!
<SNIP>
Jerry, after reading some of the threads in the news
group, I can't for the life of me understand why this
many people are so dang blind or ignorant.
You just keep plugging away at what you do, because
you my friend are a life saver!!!
Anytime you need someone to speak about the results
of your product, you have my number. We would galdly
talk to them.
Thank you very much for all your help.
God bless you...
Anthony & Linda Testa
Jacksonville, Florida
----------
AND LIKE THIS:
"Thank you, Jerry, for all you help. You've
been a blessing to all of us," AIMEE.
From: AIMEE (countrygirl0...@yahoo.com)
Subject: House training and such...
Date: 2003-10-08 16:18:56 PST
I've been having a problem with my dog, Axel,
relieving himself in the house while I'm away
from home.
I've used TPW method's, and yesterday I was out
for 12 hours, and Axel didn't have one single "accident".
Today, I had hoped that the results would be just as
good - and they were (I was out for 11 hours).
The problem began when, as a puppy, Axel would
relieve himself in the house and I would point at the
mess and tell him "NO" or "Bad Dog".
That made him afraid to relieve himself in the house
or infront of me.
After I got TPW's training manual, I corrected my
mishandling of these instances.
When I came home to an "accident", I would simply
drop a can near the area and ask Axel "What's that?"
Then I would clean it up - with out showing him I was
the least bit upset about the mess, and when he looked
at the spot I would tell him "Good boy, you're a good dog".
This has been an ongoing problem, and thanks to the
Puppy Wizard, we've finally got it taken care of...
Also, Axel LOVES the cat's litter box...He enjoys the
"snacks" he can find in there...I followed TPW's methods
by alternating sounds and praising him while or before
he sticks his nose in it, and today, he's been going into
the room with the cat box and barking. That's because
he's thinking about getting into the box, but he knows he
shouldn't.
Thank you, Jerry, for all you help. You've been a
blessing to all of us.
AIMEE
===================
From: AIMEE (countrygirl0...@yahoo.com):
I own a black an tan coonhound. We got him
as a puppy, and due to constant mishandling
(pulling on his lead, negative corrections, and
the occasional use of a bark collar) I ended
up with a very anxious dog.
I couldn't leave him home alone, I couldn't
crate him, I couldn't even take my dog for
walks because he feared EVERYTHING.
I was going to have to get rid of him if things
didn't turn around.
My husband and I searched the internet for answers -
AND WE FOUND THE PUPPY WIZARD.
For all of you disbeliveers out there HIS METHODS WORK!
I've followed his manual, and we now have a
dog that can be left home alone, that heels
on command, that can go outside and NOT
be afraid of everything he sees.
Not only have his methods helped our dog, but
our marriage has gotten better. We had fallen
into a rut - constant bickering and tension, we
never laughed or had FUN together - but now,
with the same mindset used in THE PUPPY
WIZARDS dog training, our communications
channels have opened, and we now work
together instead of against one another.
For all the "Literalists" out there, NO WE DID
NOT TEACH EACH OTHER TO SIT, STAY,
OR HEEL.
We simply eliminated the nagging and the acting out to get
NEGATIVE attention from one another since we weren't getting
the POSITIVE attention we wanted.
So, it's been proven - THE PUPPY WIZARDS METHODS WORK.
It's up to you to accept them. Yes, there's alot of blame
that we have to accept, but once we realize that we've caused
these problems to arise, we can strive to make things better.
AIMEE
----------------------
See?
> or if you have never seen him and want to check him out.
"MISERY LOVES COMPANY," The Puppy Wizard's DADDY <{}: ~ ( >
the ces is a dog abusin punk thug coward like yourself, judith.
Your own dogs have FEAR AGGRESSION and anXXXIHOWESNESS
DESTRUCTIVE CHEWIN behavior CAUSED BY the abusive
methods you been learnin from a other dog an child abusin coward
like yourself, judith <{} : ~ ( >
> He will be on every night this week at 9pm EST and 10 PM
> plus various other times. He has some new shows and some
> repeats. It kicked off last night. He was dealing with fighting GSD.
Your own dogs fight, judith.
> I do believe there is a lady here that has one or more GSD's?
LOTS of US got GSD's, judith.
> Anyway,
You mean anyHOWE, judith. After all, THESE ARE
The Sincerely Incredibly Freakin Insanely Simply
Amazing Grand Puppy, Child, Pussy, Birdy And
Horsey Wizard 100% CONSISTENTLY NEARLY
INSTANTLY SUCCESSFUL FREE WWW Wits'
End Dog Training Method Forums <{}: ~ ) >
> they were the most beautiful dogs.
A DOG Is A Dog;
As A KAT Is A KAT;
As A BIRDY Is A BIRDY;
As A CHILD IS A CHILD;
As A SP-HOWES Is a SP-HOWES
As A Mass Murderer Is A Mass Murderer.
ALL Critters Only Respond In
PREDICTABLE INNATE NORMAL NATURAL
INSTINCTIVE REFLEXIVE Ways;
To Situations And Circumstances Of Their Environment
Which We Create For Them.
You GET The Critter You TRAINED
> They were pretty to watch and I am not even a fan of the breed.
That's right, you're a Pit Bull Fancier <{}: ~ ( >
> He dealt with a Beagle and a Maltese that wouldn't
> allow the wife to get in the bed. She (the wife)
That's a pretty common problem, judith.
> would have to go in the TV room and sleep sometimes.....
Yeah, if she couldn't wake her DH up when the dog
was keepin her away from him. Some dogs learn to
be SILENT when they're WORKIN <{) ; ~ ) >
> stand back Cesar I can handle this one.
You're full of CRAP, judith. You can't even handle
your own dogs based on YOUR OWN POSTED
CASE HISTORY.
REMEMBER judith?
> The dog and the stupid ass husband!!!!!!!!
What's the DIFFERENCE between have a PROBLEM
with AGGRESSION between DOGS and PEOPLE,
judith? THERE AIN'T NONE, judith. Your own
dogs GOT THE SAME PROBLEM.
DON'T THEY, judith.
> Can you imagine???
Naaaaah? DO TELL???
From: "Larry M Male" <larrymm...@yahoo.com>
To: "The Puppy Wizard" <ThePuppyWiz...@EarthLink.Net>
Sent: Saturday, August 21, 2004 12:44 PM
Subject: Re: Cocker with ear infection
Thanks Jerry,
I enjoyed the scientific discussion debunking
operant conditioning for teaching thinking animals.
Humans think by forming concepts. All of their
knowledge is held as a hierarchy of concepts
(more complex concepts defined in terms of
simpler ones). In my mind, to treat such a being
as a B. F. Skinner robot is criminal.
I don't believe that dogs hold their knowledge
as concepts as do humans but their ability to
think is unquestionable.
Operant conditioning doesn't utilize an animal's
ability to think. When you show a dog what you
want them to do, then they are able to grasp the
problem; they are able to think about it and to
integrate possible solutions into their mind.
But with operant conditioning a trainer is actually
hiding the problem to be solved from the animal.
For example, it is good for your dog's attention to
be upon you. When heeling, he will notice your
movements, your subtle hand signals, your facial
expressions and he will immediately sense your
next command. But the clicker trainers have forgotten
the reasons why a dog's attention should be upon you.
So they condition a dog to unnaturally cock his head
to stare upward at you. The dog doesn't appreciate
the meaning of this and neither does the trainer. Since
this unnatural behavior is prized in the obedience ring,
the clicker trainers are motivated to condition it.
Don't you think that the "high five" hand shake that
clicker trainers use to motivate novices looks like a
Nazi salute (an unthinking reflex). It is not at all like
a warm hand shake from a loving companion, is it?
Some of your testimonials bring tears to my eyes. I
love to see how some "thinking" people appreciate
your methods.
--Larry
----------------------
"TooCool" <larrym...@hotmail.com> wrote in
message news:
Planarians are primitive, free-living, flat bodied,
freshwater creatures. They can be conditioned to
respond to stimuli, display the ability to master a
two-choice maze, and can transfer the memory of
training from one individual to another by feeding a
ground up planarian to another one.
It is this primitive level of learning that "Learning Theory"
and operant conditioning addresses. Operant conditioning
does not rely upon an animal's ability to think. It operates
upon a primitive (nervous system) level for animals in
general, regardless of the level of their brain development.
When you train a dog using clicker training, you are
training a mindless reaction to your clicker /
reinforcement. Your dog is not learning an idea-he is
learning a conditioned reflex. He will perform just like
a robot when you give the signal-he can't help it.
It has also been shown that when you later withdraw
your reinforcement that it will induce stress which will
lead to behavior problems-often quite severe.
Learning in humans is conceptual. "Learning theory"
plays absolutely no part in human learning. Humans
do not learn through a process of gaining some
reinforcement or avoiding some pain. They study their
environment, they form concepts, they learn logic (in
order to separate truth from falsity) and using
reasoning they attempt to integrate all of their
knowledge without contradiction.
If humans seem to respond to some reinforcement
or to avoid some pain, it is because they have consciously
evaluated the various alternatives and have made a
reasoned choice--that is not a conditioned behavior
and it is not an application of "Learning Theory".
Canines are not conceptual animals, but they do
possess the ability to think. Their thinking powers
are different both in kind and in degree from humans.
That is why it is so important to learn their nature
in order to train them successfully.
Operant conditioning operates at a primitive, nervous
system level. It does not take advantage of a dog's
ability to think-only his ability to be conditioned. The
act of subverting his nature as a thinking creature causes
stress and anxiety which can in turn produce behavior
problems.
Please study the Puppy Wizard's Wits' End Training
Method. It is consonant with the nature of a thinking
dog. It will not induce stress and anxiety and no behavior
problems will result.
--Larry
---------------------
Subject : The Wits end dog training method - THANK YOU!
Dear Jerry
I have just got to thank you so very much.
I had a gutful of the sadistic crap that gets dished out as
"dog training", I read a bunch of books that just seemed wrong
and then I started trawling the web and found it was worse -
bulletin boards full of people, advocates of pin-down techniques
and shock collars.
I just couldn't believe it. Some of the methods the so called
"professionals" were championing turned my stomach and in the
absence of a voice of reason many people seemed to be taking
the advice. Was this the only way to ever train my dog?
Many of the methods thankfully I never had the stomach to
even try, it all just seemed like constantly pushing against
a resisting force.
Then I stumbled across a post from the puppy wizard - it
was honestly like an epiphany for me. In an instant the
bullshit facade that holds together these peoples brand
of "logic" just crumble away, suddenly I saw very clearly
indeed.
I then read many of your posts and eventually
after some searching found the manual.
I read it and felt like a weight had been lifted.
Now me and my furry best friend have found our
path, one that we both seem very happy with.
We are both very much in debt to your kindness
and compassionate wisdom.
I think it was Gandhi who said that "you can be in a minority
of one, but the truth is still the truth". These words seemed
so appropriate after finding your methods in a sea of countless
posts promoting repetitively violent and abusive training.
On top of that I felt a little of the pioneering spirit of the
internet, like someone had reached out across a great distance,
put a hand on my shoulder and said.."it's cool, just love your
dog, listen to him ".
Thank You, over and over Thank You! You have given me and a
young and very enthusiastic Border Collie a way to a much better
life together.
Long live the Puppy Wizard!
Cornwall UK
PS - Keep up the good work, keep telling it HOWE it really is.
--------------
> Oh Hell no.......LOL
Then NO PROBLEMO, judith.
The Sincerely Incredibly Freakin Insanely Simply Amazing
Grand Puppy, Child, Pussy, Birdy And Horsey Wizard will
simply QUOTE YOUR OWN POSTED CASE HISTORY
IDENTIFYING EXXXPOSING and DISCREDITING you
and your abusive cesar millan aka "the dog whisperer"
METHODS.
And then you can assume your calm assertive attitude and
GET THE HEEL HOWETA The Sincerely Incredibly
Freakin Insanely Simply Amazing Grand Puppy, Child,
Pussy, Birdy And Horsey Wizard's 100% CONSISTENTLY
NEARLY INSTANTLY SUCCESSFUL FREE WWW Wits'
End Dog, Child, Kat And Horse Training Method Manual
Forums <{); ~ ) >
You might wanna try doin a little captain haggerty ZEN BREATHIN.
> Be Free,
LIKE THIS, judith:
From: Judith Althouse - view profile
Date: Thurs, Jul 27 2006 6:13 pm
Email: judyaltho...@webtv.net (Judith Althouse)
Hello Cecil,
Add me to the list that suggests choke chain collars for
obedience training. May I also suggest that you beware
of leaving a dog unattended with a choke chain on....
especially if there is a chance that they could get caught
in a fence or choked in some manner....it is rare but it
can happen especially wirh 2 new dogs in the house.
If they only go out on a leash,,,,no problem..
Good Luck with your new dogs.
Be Free,
Judy
---------------------------
AND LIKE THIS, judith:
Subject: The Dog Whisperer
Thumbs up or Thumbs down??? I love him. He is my idol,
my hero, my guru. i want to be him when I grow up :) so,
whadda ya say do ya like him or not?
I say Thumbs UP!!!!!
Be Free,
Judy
------------------------------
HERE'S your "EDUCATED" SUCCESS!:
Subject: Alpha Males
"Judith Althouse" <judyaltho...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:21652-44A...@storefull-3253.bay.webtv.net...
> Hi everyone,
> I read thru all of the posts just knowing that someone else had
> already addressed my problems but if so I overlooked it.
>
> I have had 2 of my dogs since they were a year old. They are now 13
> and 14. The older one a spayed female Border Collie mix. The 13 year
> old a Black Lab, 15 months ago I introduced a year old Pit Bul/Lab mix
> to the pack. He is a neutered male approx 2 years old now....Everything
> has been rolling right along.
>
> Several months ago another Pit Bull joined the family although
> he has remained outside. He is not neutered yet and though he
> is very mellow I just feel like I am pushing my luck to introduce
> him to the household. He is not housebroken and most likely
> has spent his life on a chain.
>
> Ok here is the problem...Jubal Early the Pit Bull/Lab mix recently
> attacked Buck (my old Lab) 3 times in one day. It was not the most
> vicious attacks I have ever seen but could have easily escalated.
> Buck came out of it with a scrape on his ear.
>
> Buck just laid around for a day. I am not sure if it was because he
> was sore or because he was broken. Of course I have kept Jubal
> Early seperated or on a leash since then.
>
> Buck is definitely afraid of Jubal, the sound of him makes Buck
> anxious. Prior to this incident Jubal E steered clear of Buck if a toy
> would roll over to Buck he would grab the toy and run for his life, even
> jump over the couch at times to avoid passing Buck in a close hall way.
> I must admit to having made some mistakes with Jubal E.
>
> He is young and active and he is fun to play with plus I did not have
> complete control of his handling. Suffice it to say Jubal was allowed
> to run the show.
>
> He became the Pack Leader over humans and dogs alike.
> My theory is that Jubal has just taken over as the Alpha Dog. The
> part I do NOT understand is why Jubal Early is still on the attack since
> Buck is not offering any opposition.
>
> I can't say he is submissive.
>
> He doesn't get a chance to be. Terrified would be more like it....
>
> I have gone over the incidents a million times and for the life
> of me I cannot put my finger on anything in particular triggering
> the incident...
>
> There was a time when Lady (my oldest dog was the Alpha dog and
> controlled Buck) until a few years ago and she gracefully took a back
> seat to him. Somebody, please help? Do you think things will ever
> settle down here? All of my dogs are rescued dogs that just came to me.
> As much as I love the 2 new additions. I will not see my poor old Dog
> Buck be terrified and hurt by anyone.
>
> ou can imagine what it is like, constantly shuffling dogs and fearing
> disaster. This has all hapened a couple of days ago and I am exhausted.
>
> I am sorry to be so wordy, but I was trying to give you the straight
> scoop so hopefully someone could offer some advice. I have always
> had dogs. I have owned a show dog, obedience dogs, (Dobermans)
> so I am not a novice to the dog world. Somebody please HELP us...
> Thanks for reading this.....
>
> Be Free,
> Judy
NHOWE GET THE HEEL HOWETA The Sincerely Incredibly
Freakin Insanely Simply Amazing Grand Puppy, Child, Pussy,
Birdy And Horsey Wizards' 100% CONSISTENTLY NEARLY
INSTANTLY SUCCESSFUL FREE WWW Wits' End Dog,
Child, Kat And Horse Training Method Manual Forums <{); ~ ) >
> Be Free,
You'll NEVER be FREE, judith, on accHOWENT
of you're a dog an child abusin coward a thief and
a liar <{): ~ ( >
BWEEEEEAAHAHAHAHAHAAAA!!!
> Judy
"Linda" <llindaleedan...@msn.com wrote in message
news:
I have been trying for the last 18 months to help my
dog who became fear aggressive at 18 month of age.
I do not know what started the problem but he came
aggressive first with dogs and then began lunging and
snapping at people. Until this time he loved everyone
and could play with any dog. He was well socialized
ad I took him with me everywhere.
At 13 months he passed the Canine Good Citizens
Test except he could let me leave him. I had used
clicker training to teach him manners and tricks but
it was not working on his aggression problem.
I took him to vets who suggested a low protein diet,
trainers who charged $800 to only make him worse.
They tried to use a prong collar and he froze, urinated
and tried to climb on my head to help him. they then
suggested a shock collar I knew this approach was not
working as he was becoming more aggressive.
I took him to an animal behaviorist with Ph. D. 400 miles
away who told me to "KEEP HIM SAFE" and read a book
on the fearful canine. I tried another trainer who tried to
use a nylon chock collar but it only made him worse.
I read hundreds of books,"CULTURE CLASH", "DOG
ARE FROM NEPTUNE", "THE OTHER END OF THE
LEASH", ETC looking for help. We finally went to Purdue
University Small Animal Behavior Clinic and they said he
had fear aggression, punishment would not work, use the
gentle leader and when out walking and he got stressed
have the people stop until he could get in control using
treats, and work on clicker training.
At that point I knew more about clicker training and using
the gentle leader than they did! Nothing was working--he
would not come when I called him and would run away when
I tried to catch him. I was afraid to walk him even in the
neighborhood as we had become that "mean dog and women who
hasn't trained her dog"
I went to four trainers in both Michigan and Florida who
were trainer/specialists in aggression and the last two
were so afraid of him they could not approach him. No one
said I should give up on him and kill him but they would
say "You have to realize he is dangerous and you are
responsible for him."
*(You got LUCKY, Linda... They coulda got Sunshine
DEAD on us. Damned near did... too.)
As last resort I tried the internet again--I had had on
going discussions with trainers from Triple Crown and Dr
Meister with out any help-and I found the ad to Doggy Do
Right and messaged Jerry to ask if this might help my dog.
He said solving the aggression problem was EZ but I could
not believe him even when I downloaded the manual.
The name of the method was right I was at my Wits End.
I had been working for 18 months!
Using the can sound three time he came, and still comes
from anywhere with the command-"comegoodboy" Next
I tried the can when walking him--when he saw a dog three
blocks away he went off-lunging and snapping-I used the
can sound and he looked at me like uhn?
I used it three more times and we got to the other dog-
-the looked at me wagging his tail--the other person
looked at me like why are shaking that can but just walked
on by.
When ever I try to explain about the sound people look at
me like "you must be out of your mind"
The results can make a believer!!!
Three weeks since beginning the Wits End Training
Manual program I walked him without the gentle leader
in a busy shopping area with many dogs.
He just seemed to not notice any one.
When people talked to him or ask his name he would
look at then and wag his tail and let then pet him.
I still can not believe the change in him--we can now
enjoy life out in public.
If I had not found the Wits End method I know there
was no hope for him and he would have hurt someone
Through all this he never growled at me, guarded his
toys or food or showed any sign of aggression with me.
My goal is to get the message out to all dog lovers that
dogs can be trained fast, easily and problems solved with
out force, pain, food or anything but sound and praise!!!!
I know most people would have given up on him a long time
ago but he was and is my life. Solving the problem was EZ
but only with the right approach-sound and praise.
I know because I tried everything else and nothing worked!!!
================================
From: Linda Daniel
To: Jerry Howe
Sent: Monday, January 06, 2003 1:06 AM
Subject: Re: - Re: dog aggression
Thanks for writing--I would be happy to do almost anything
to get your approach out to dog owners as I know it would
save so many lives. I know at times I was so frustrated I
thought of giving up on Sunshine but of course I never would
have but many people would have. The world just does not
know you can train a dog in just a few sessions and actually
solve problems.
We will be here until late April and we really have no plans-
-just to enjoy the warmth and sun of Florida, so any time
you could meet us would be great. I drive so I would be
happy to come to you anytime anywhere!
We went to Celebration today and two little poodles got
right into his face and he just sat there--I GOT a little
scared but he handled it just fine.--a couple of times people
would ask his name and want to pet him and he just went
to them tail wagging and rolled over for them rub his tummy.
He really just is not concerned about people passing, even
those on rollerblades! I have always used a gentle leader
in public but he spent most of time rubbing his face on the
grass--today I used his collar and he was so much happier!!
Only problem is he will stop to smell and I can not get
stopped soon enough to keep the leash loose. He never
pulled ahead of me but when he gets into smelling I have
a hard time getting him going--at times I think he could
smell a blade of grass for 10 minutes.
I can never thank you enough for giving Sunshine back!!!!!
I wrote to Purdue and told them about him being able to
walk in a crowd with out the /gentle leader and not having
a problem with other people and dogs.
I told them their advice did not work. Their advice was
to use the gentle leader at all times and when he was
around people or dogs to have him sit and reward with
treats--one really good suggestions was to have people
coming toward us stop when he got stressed or aroused
and not move until we backed away-
- can you just see me yelling at people to stop on the street
until I get his attention with treats.
They also suggested the possibility of using drugs-prozac-
but thought he was too dangerous as the drug would make
him less fearful and then he might attack or become more
sure of himself and become dominate aggressive. Just had
to share their great advice with you but I am sure you have
heard it all--even I am becoming an expert on bad advice.
----------------------------------
Subject: < BEFORE -> "Jerry, You filthy, Unctuous,
No Good Charlatan,"
< AFTER -> "Thank You Jerry For Putting Up With
A Constant Barrage Of Really Infantile
Crap At The Hands Of Supposedly Adult
Dog Lovers.
'Naive' Is Believing You Can Terrorize
A Dog Into Good Behavior," Robert Crim.
>Subject: Re: Fritz---a retrospective
>Date: 02/05/1999
>Author: Robert Crim <fritzg...@earthlink.net>
> You filthy, unctuous, no good charlatan. If you had
> any idea of what dogs and dog people were about
> you would realize the depths of the absolute loathing
> and contempt I hold for you right now. Were it not
> for the blessed distance and anonymity that the internet
> gives us from the scummy likes of you, I would probably
> be in a jail cell right now for turning you into the pile
> of shit you really are
Hey, Howe, you really are a wacko, eh?
Crim wrote this about *YOU,* you insipid piece of cow dung!
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
--
Dogman
mailto:dog...@i1.net
http://www.i1.net/~dogman
=====================
> On Thu, 17 Jun 1999 20:24:15 -0700, dogsnus
<"Terri"@cyberhighway> Wrote:>
> Hey, do like me, and killfile Jerry.
> He has millions of people aleady reading his posts and
> watching him extract his soggy foot out of his mouth!
> Out of these MILLIONS, I've only seen 2 naive childs
> come forward and actually believe in his training manual.
Robert Crim writes:
I assume that I and my wife are those two naive childs
since I freely admit to having read and, I hope,
understood enough of the manual and it's counterparts by
John Fisher and the posts of Marilyn Rammell to believe
and use it.
This naive child would like to say thank you to both
Jerry and Marilyn for putting up with a constant barrage
of really infantile crap at the hands of supposedly
adult dog lovers.
The other naive child (LSW) has to put up with the
nagging idea that if people like them had been posting
earlier, maybe we would not have had to hold the head
of a really magnificent animal in our arms while he was
given the needle and having to hug him and wait until he
gasped his last gasp.
To my mind, "naive" is believing you can terrorize a dog.
Naive is believing that people that hide behind fake
names are more honest than people that use their real
names. Naive is thinking that dilettante dog breeders
and amateur "trainers" like Joey (lyingdogDUMMY, j.h.)
are the equal or better than those that have studied and
lived by their craft for decades.
"Stupid" is believing that people do not see kindergarten
level insults for what they are. Really stupid is believing
that people like Jerry Howe and Marilyn Rammell are
going to just go away because you people act like fools.
Why do you act like fools? I really have no idea, and I
don't really care.
> And, to date: I've not seen ONE come forward and
> actually admit to buying and having success with his
> little black box.
I think I'm going to get one myself for Father's day and
take it down to the Animal Shelter for their use and
testing. You would never believe the results, so you'll
never know.
> Anyone by now that doesn't see a scam man coming by
> Jerry's posts deserves to get what is sure to be coming
> to him! LOL!
I don't see a "scam man", so I guess I and Longsuffering
Wife and Rollei will just have to get what we deserve,
eh? As Joey (Dogman) says, "poor Rollei.".......right.
>Terri
Yes it was, and that is sad.
Robert, Longsuffering Wife and Rollei (do I get to
listen to the box first?)
===========
Crim wrote THAT about *YOU,* tommy,
"you insipid piece of cow dung!"
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
----------------------------
WELCOME to The Sincerely Incredibly Freakin Insanely Simply
Amazing Grand Puppy, Child, Pussy, Birdy And Horsey Wizards'
100% CONSISTENTLY NEARLY INSTANTLY SUCCESSFUL FREE
WWW Wits' End Dog, Child, Kat And Horse Training Method Manual
Forums <{); ~ ) >
I'm Jerry Howe, The Sincerely Incredibly Freakin Insanely Simply
Amazing Grand Puppy, Child, Pussy, Birdy And Horsey Wizard <{) ; ~ ) >
Here's your own FREE COPY of The Sincerely Incredibly Freakin
Insanely Simply Amazing Grand Puppy, Child, Pussy, Birdy And
Horsey Wizards'
The *666* Edition Of Your Own
FREE COPY
Of
The Sincerely Incredibly Freakin Insanely Simply Amazing
GRAND
Puppy, Child, Pussy, Birdy And Horsey Wizards'
100% CONSISTENTLY NEARLY INSTANTLY SUCCESSFUL
FREE WWW
Wits' End Dog, Child, Kat And Horsey Training Method Manual <{) ;
~ ) >
<{#}: ~ } >8< { ~ :{@}>
<{#}: ~ } > < { ~ :{@}>
<{#}: ~ } > < { ~ :{@}>
<{#}: ~ } > http://makeashorterlink.com/?K3AD21A3D < { ~ :{@}>
<{#}: ~ } > < { ~ :{@}>
<{#}: ~ } > < { ~ :{@}>
<{#}: ~ } >8< { ~ :{@}>
Human_And_Animal_Behavior_Foren...@hotmail.com
Michael A. Ball wrote:
> On Mon, 31 Jul 2006 12:45:02 -0400, judyal...@webtv.net (Judith
> Althouse) wrote:
>
> >Hi everyone,
> > I am not trying to start the Cesar Millan deiscussion again, this is
> >just an FYI for those who do like him or if you have never seen him and
> >want to check him out...
>
> Thanks for the "heads up"!
Is your head normal size, michale? Just curiHOWES on
accHOWENT of your fingers are only 2 1/2" long.
> Cesar isn't God,
That's good on accHOWENT of most of us here abHOWETS
DON'T BELIEVE in G-D, they worship SATAN <{}:: ~ ) >
> but he knows a lot more than I do;
That's not true, michael. the ces an you are equally EXXXPERT abusers.
> so, I enjoy watching him.
No DHOWET.
> Hint for folks who Do think Cesar is God:
Perhaps THAT'S HOWE COME so many of HOWER
koehler fanciers HATE the ces <{} : ~ ( >
> in television production,one can edit out all of the
> things that fail to work or go haywire.
the ces does most of his "trainin" off camera, michael.
His FAILURE rate is nearly as high as dr. phil's.
> Not every problem can be corrected in 30 minutes. LOL
That's not true, michael.
ANY Behavior
That's CONSISTENT, PREDICTABLE
Or REPEATABLE,
Is EZ To MODIFY, EXXXTINGUISH
Or Put On CUE (Train)
NEARLY INSTANTLY
If You Understand EFFECTIVE NON PHYSICAL
SCIENTIFIC And PSYCHOLOGICAL
Pavlovian and Ericksonian CONDITIONING,
i.e., Simply Doin eVERY THING EXXXACTLY,
PRECISELY, OPPOSITE of HOWE We Been Taught
By Professional Dog Trainers And University Behaviorists
<{); ~ ) >
"It is by muteness that a dog becomes
so utterly beyond value."
Like a confessor Priest?
"With him,
words play no torturing tricks..., "
--John Galsworthy.
Don't bet your dog won't tell on you...
Their behaviors reflect
our words, actions and training quirks.
Jerry HOWE, The Puppy Wizard. <{} ; ~ ) >
The Methods, Principles And Philosophy Of Behavior
Never Change,
Or They'd Not Be Scientific
And Could Not Obtain
Consistent, Reliable, Fast, Safe Effective Results
For All Handler's And All Critters
And ALL Behaviors
ALL OVER THE WHOWEL WILD WORLD,
NEARLY INSTANTLY,
As Taught In Your FREE Copy Of The Simply Amazing
Puppy Wizard's 100% CONSISTENTLY NEARLY INSTANTLY
SUCCESSFUL FREE WWW Wits' End Dog Training Method
Manual <{): ~ ) >
> A dog's life is too short;
That's correct, michael.
> their only fault really.
You AIN'T gettin away blamin the DOG for YOU MURDERIN IT,
michael aka michelle you pathetic murderin mental case:
Subject: "Secret Cutting"
Groups: alt.support.depression
From: Michael Ball
Date: Tues, May 30 2000 12:00 am
Email: "Michael Ball" <Guard...@wireco.net>
The movie, "Secret Cutting" airs tonight at
9:00 p.m. eastern, on USA Network.
-----------
Groups: alt.support.depression
From: Michael Ball
Date: Mon, Dec 27 1999 12:00 am
Howard Hong wrote,
> "If I wanted more of this feeling, then
> it would probably be a pleasure, no?"
I almost replied, "WRONG!," and offered this explanation:
I sometimes makes little cuts under my watchband, with a
razor blade.
Although there is some physical pain, I feel triumphant
because Michael Ball is getting a little dose of what he
deserves. So, it is a pleasure.
How odd; even sensations that most people would rate as
bad, sick, horrible, etc., can be and are pleasures--if
we want them. I never thought of those insignificant
little cuts specifically as pleasures, but they are!
I love it when little streams of blood trickle down my arm.
And I like the reminder pain over the following couple of
days, during the healing process.
------------
Subject: Prozac
Groups: alt.support.depression
From: Michael Ball - view profile
Date: Mon, Aug 14 2000 12:00 am
Prozac affects everyone differently. Please, don't allow
other's Prozac experiences to influence you too much.
I take another medicine that makes me tired; so, I can't
attribute fatigue to Prozac. FWIW, fatigue is a common
complaint. I don't believe Prozac has any effect on one's
immune system. In my humble opinion, Tabasco Sauce and
jalapeno peppers are far more effective than any flu shot!
:-) I haven't had a cold in years. :-)
Wait a minute! A cat lover!? Oh, well, I suppose someone has to...
(((K))) I hope you're doing well today.
Michael
-------------
Groups: alt.support.depression
From: Michael Ball
Date: Mon, Mar 13 2000 12:00 am
"Rage"? "Again"? I wonder if a lot of folks get angry
at their therapists, and why? My therapist used to try
to convince me that Michael Ball is not so bad. That
annoyed me so much! I'm not sure what bothered me most:
the fact that I couldn't seem to convince him of the truth;
or the thought that he was trying to trick me; or something
entirely different.
He was a nice guy, but I just couldn't get him to see the
real me. Ha! If I had, he might have stopped wasting his
effort! We eventually began working on his problems. :-)
Misplaced aggression? Is that why we tend to attack
some of those who want to "help" us?
----------
michael VOLUNTEERS at the shelter MURDERIN DOGS for
PLEASURE (and a little FREE dog food) and arbritrarily
and criminally MURDERS INNOCENT KATS on the street
(JUST LIKE HOWER OWN diddler does) for HIS OWN SADISTIC
PLEASURE when he AIN'T MURDERIN DOGS FOR HIS OWN PLEASURE
at the "SHELTER":
From: "Michael A. Ball" <Guard...@wireco.net>
Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 22:35:20 -0500
Subject: Re: Ethical Dilemma (Son bitten by dog
in schoolyard) (long)
"AussieResc" <aussier...@aol.com> wrote>
> I find this amazing that someone who posts on a
> board for rescue would have this attitude.
> Pat
This NG is specifically for dog rescue. I hate cats
and never give a cat an even break--unless they just
happen to break in the middle.
When I started to work at the animal shelter, cleaning
kennels, I was asked if I liked cats. I replied
enthusiastically, "Yes, if they are cooked right!"
I've never had to work with the cats! :-)
We're all different.
Michael
From: Michael A. Ball - view profile
Date: Sat, Apr 8 2006 3:51 pm
>"Andrew A. Nanton" <a.nan...@gmail.com> wrote
>> What is the best way to perform home euthanasia on a dog?
>> I want to put down the family pet but I don't have a lot
>> of money and if there is a way to do it humanely and cheaply,
>> I will.
>> All replies appreciated.
>> Andrew Nanton
That's a lot of wisdom--for a "top poster".
$50.00 for euthanasia and cremation is a real bargain.
The same service would be about $120.00 for a 40# dog,
in this area.
You know, I don't believe in beating around the bush much.
I believe we ought to say what's on our mind. I see you
hold a similar view. Of course, having a small mind
complicates things. That was quite a generalization you
made: "Anybody that can't afford that ($50.00 to have
their pet killed) shouldn't have a pet in the first place!"
Andrew Nanton didn't mention that the family pet was sick
or aged. So, for all we know, the family is saying good
bye to their pet because they can't afford $50.00 to keep
it alive!
If that is the case, they probably don't have $50.00 to
kill their pet! Either way, they are trying to do the
right thing.
Because of money, my pet ownership days are running out.
I hope you are never faced with that situation.
Whatever it takes.
----------
From: "Jerry Howe" <jho...@bellsouth.net> -
Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 18:52:06 -0400
Subject: Re: Symphony rests in Peace.
Hello michael,
"Michael A. Ball" <Guard...@wireco.net> wrote in message
news:tp01k9k...@corp.supernews.com...
> As expected, Symphony, the 12 week old puppy,
> bite case, was euthanized today.
No she wasn't euthanized, she was MURDERED, because
you do that stuff to dogs for a living for yourself.
You're part of the problem, michael.
> He won't be startled, terrified or confused anymore.
That IS reassuring, michael. Is that what your 'boss' told you?
> I like to believe he has perfect hearing now.
I'd prefer you'd take his place.
> Thanks to everyone who made recommendations, and offered
> insight, prayers and encouragement.
BWWWAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAA!!! YOU KILL DOGS FOR A LIVING, michael.
> I understood the liability issue long before meeting Symphony,
> but Lynn K.'s experience
Your pal lying "I LOVE KOEHLER" lynn is a pathological liar and
notorious dog abuser, you puke.
> with a $30K settlement was a sobering thought.
What would be sobering would be to THINK about what you're doing.
> Still, if there was anyway to nullify that liability and
> have this puppy adopted, I wanted to find it.
Sorry mikey, you just don't have the knowHOWE.
------------
> well-known troll and alleged psychotic.
CITES PLEASE, michael? When The Freakin Simply Amazing
Puppy Wizard SEZ SUMPTHIN HE BACKS IT UP IN WRITING by
CITING POSTED CASE HISTORY DATA. We here on The Freakin
Simply Amazing Puppy Wizard's 100% CONSISTENTLY NEARLY
INSTANTLY SUCCESSFUL FREE WWW Wits' End Dog Training
Method Manual Forums CALL THAT FORENSIC EVIDENCE.
LIKE THIS:
From: Michael A. Ball
Date: Fri, Dec 2 2005 5:13 pm
Email: Michael A. Ball <Guard...@wireco.net>
On 2 Dec 2005 08:37:21 -0800,
"buzzsaw" <t...@comcast.net> wrote:
Due to medicines, my mouth is always so dry,
I can't afford to give up any spit!
----------------
> The is vast evidence supporting both descriptors.
CITES PLEASE, michael? When The Freakin Simply Amazing
Puppy Wizard SEZ SUMPTHIN HE BACKS IT UP IN WRITING by
CITING POSTED CASE HISTORY DATA. We here on The Freakin
Simply Amazing Puppy Wizard's 100% CONSISTENTLY NEARLY
INSTANTLY SUCCESSFUL FREE WWW Wits' End Dog Training
Method Manual Forums CALL THAT FORENSIC EVIDENCE.
> Most people simply filter out his posts.
ONLY LIARS DOG ABUSERS COWARDS and ACTIVE ACUTE
CHRONIC LONG TERM INCURABLE MENTAL CASES who
jerk choke shock bribe crate intimidate mutilate
and murder innocent defenseless dumb critters an
LIE abHOWET IT post here abHOWETS, like yourself,
michael <{); ~ ) >
> Newcomers are advised to do likewise,
You don't see The Freakin Simply Amazing Puppy
Wizard's 100% CONSISTENTLY NEARLY INSTANTLY
SUCCESSFUL FREE WWW Wits' End Dog Training
Method Manual Students Postin here abHOWETS
on accHOWENT of THEIR DOGS DON'T HAVE PROBLEMS.
DECENT PEOPLE DO NOT POST HERE abHOWETS UNLESS
it's to say "THANK YOU The Freakin Simply Amazing
Puppy Wizard. Your FREE MANUAL SAVED MY DOGS LIFE.
G-D BLESS YOU."
> and to not mention Howe.
On accHOWENT of every time you miserable lyin
animal abusing punk thug coward active acute
chronic long term incurable mental cases post
here abHOWETS The Freakin Simply Amazing Puppy
Wizard CITES YOUR OWN POSTED CASE HISTORIES an
DISCREDIS you as INSANE LYIN and ABUSIVE <{): ~ ) >
> Those newcomers who decline, get filtered out,
> too. The system works great; and everyone gets
> to have a choice!
INDEEDY! LIKE SEX, eh michael?:
Groups: alt.support.depression
From: Michael A. Ball
Date: Sun, Mar 14 2004 6:25 pm
On 14 Mar 2004 13:48:35 -0800, crysal...@yahoo.com (crysalis) wrote:
> [...]Tomorrow I see the Dr. I hope they tell me something good. [...]
I hope he tells you "something good" too! If you were
asked to list the top three good things you'd like for
him to tell you, what would they be?
I put myself in your shoes for a minute and discovered
that question is not as simple as it sounds. We don't
always know how to heal the pain or even what is causing
the pain: we only know that we hurt.
Maybe your doctor will tell you that it is not your skin
that you want to escape, but everything inside of that
skin" your..."self"!
I'm reminded of a time in my life when I applied to enter
a sex reassignment program. Fortunately, during the initial
evaluation process, it was determined that I wasn't transsexual,
and didn't want to be a woman: I just didn't want to be Michael
Ball.
That was a day of considerable relief, but also one of great
sadness and hopelessness. There would be no Andrea Beck, and
for the time being, no escape from MB.
Best wishes tomorrow. I hope you'll tell us how things went.
Michael
A day without recoil is like a day without sunshine!
-------------
Subject: cutest cartridge
Groups: alt.guns
From: Michael A. Ball - view profile
Date: Wed, Apr 5 2006 11:05 am
On Wed, 05 Apr 2006 02:03:26 GMT, "Barky Bark" <barkyb...
@bonksbcglobal.net> wrote:
> Anybody else think the .45 acp is the cutest cartridge?
> Short and squat, like an obese beagle. Very adorable.
There is nothing "cute" about a .357 Sig cartridge,
but I like the way it looks.
Incidentally, you do seem to have a lot of extra
time on your hands.
A day without recoil is like a day without sunshine!
--------
Looks like michael is a little intimidated
by the length of a .357, eh michael???
> Many "damn" dogs respond well to some kindness and attention.
That so, michael? SOME DON'T, is THAT what you're sayin?
He could TRAIN his neighbor's dog in a couple minutes not
to bark nodoGdameneDMOORE, michael. HOWE COME would you
DISAVAIL him of that opportunity, michael?
> > Also, most municipalities have noise ordinances
> > that include provisions for barking dogs.
The Freakin Simply Amazng Puppy Wizard told roger61611
that the MENTAL CASES LIARS COWARDS and DOG ABUSERS
and PANSIES would be along to advise him to call the
cops on his neighbor. THANK YOU, michael.
Hey mikey? Speakin of cops, do the fuzz in your state
allHOWE MENTAL PATIENTS to CARRY FIREARMS? Wouldn't
your local chief of police care to find HOWET abHOWET
you? That is, just to PROTECT you from shootin yourself
seein as we know you ain't man enough to shoot someWON
else.
> If you haven't tried that approach,
You mean callin the cops on his neighbors dog, michael?
The cops might take his dog to the shelter and they might
MURDER IT like HOWE YOU DO for dogs at your shelter, michael.
> perhaps you should.
Hmmm. Ever think of suckin on the end of a .45?
They ain't nearly as intimidating as a .357 or
.44 mag. HOWEver, you might get more bang for
the buck given the thickness of the RHOWEND,
and THAT'S what REALL counts, eh michael?
> A dog's life is too short; their only fault really.
Thanks to you many dogs lives are much shorter
than G-D intended, unlike your own "manhood"
which was shortchanged by your mommy and
impotent daddy <{): ~ ( >
Subject: First .45 ACP rounds!
Groups: alt.guns
From: Michael A. Ball
Date: Sun, Dec 28 2003 4:29 pm
I just fired my new Springfield Armory 1911-A1, .45 ACP.
It was far, far better than anything I expected. I have
small hands and expected it to rattled my teeth, like my
.357 does; but it was really nice instead. I got three of
the first seven rounds in the X ring, at 25 feet. I know
that's not olympic grade shooting, but it was encouraging
for me. It was a great experience.
Michael
Whatever it takes.
Subject: Size of Handguns
Groups: rec.guns
From: Michael A. Ball
Date: Mon, Apr 4 2005 5:04 pm
Email: "Michael A. Ball" <Guard...@wireco.net>
Please, don't settle on a caliber, based on a given
gun's grip. And don't settle for a grip that isn't
perfectly comfortable. I have very small hands.
After a lifetime of fearing .45 ACP, I tried a Springfield
1911, and it was love at first firing. I now own two of
them; one is a long slide trophy match.
Even my short fingers can hold these guns most comfortably.
My trigger finger is 2 & 5/8 inches; and it reaches the
trigger with great comfort.
Thinner side panels are available, but I don't think
they could possibly make grip any better.
.45 ACP is not the only fine handgun caliber {and
Springfield is not the only fine gun}, but they
are my favorites.
---------
Groups: alt.support.depression
Subject: i'd give advice
From: Michael A. Ball
Date: Tues, Mar 28 2006 7:46 pm
On Tue, 28 Mar 2006 18:37:36 +0100, "humble.life"
> <nos...@nospam.net> wrote:
> but i'm not out of the depths so i wouldn't be a
> science that proves itself
Go ahead; give your opinions. Most of the advice given
here is from folks who are still struggling. Don't take
everything as the gospel, but there are some very insightful
people in this group.
----------
Groups: alt.support.depression
Subject: Why do People seem to Have an Orgasm
making snide remarks?? It Makes my
skin crawl. Rosena
From: Michael A. Ball
Date: Mon, Mar 20 2006 11:15 am
Email: Michael A. Ball <Guard...@wireco.net>
On 19 Mar 2006 14:52:39 -0800, elystormbrin...@gmail.com wrote:
>...I know. It isn't the person, as much as the way humans
> in general can't resist making jabs at people if some
> opportunity presents itself. I was talking about Claudia
> who I do not get along with anyway. And whenever she makes
> a remark in anything related to me it makes me livid.
> But . . .I am also antsy today.
Always consider the source. Whether they are written or
spoken words, negative or positive, always consider who
it was that wrote or spoke those words. Ask yourself if
that person is even worth listening to. Decide whether
or not their views are worth the time of day--much less
being upset about.
Personally, I don't mind snide remarks at all.
Whatever it takes.
Judith Althouse
people out there that don't understand he doesn't fix everything in 15
minutes, but maybe not. Ya gotta give it to him for not editing ALL of
the times he gets bitten. LOL .. I don't think he has all of the
answers but who does? I still like watching him.
PS I love your sig
Be Free,
Judy
Human_And_Animal_Behavior_Foren...@hotmail.com
punk thug coward active acute chronic long term incurable
"Judith Althouse" <judyal...@webtv.net> wrote in message
> news:26502-44C...@storefull-3256.bay.webtv.net...
>
> Michael, you are so right
"Birds of a feather. When you lie with pigs you'll
awaken STINKIN like 'em," The Puppy Wizard's
DADDY <{}; ~ ) >
> about the editing
The Sincerely Incredibly Freakin Insanely Simply Amazing
Grand Puppy, Child, Pussy, Birdy And Horsey Wizards' 100%
CONSISTENTLY NEARLY INSTANTLY SUCCESSFUL FREE
WWW Wits' End Dog, Child, Kat And Horse Training Method
Manual Student's posts and your own POSTED CASE HISTORIES
are indellibly archived in their entirety <{); ~ ) >
> and I guess there are some people out there that don't
> understand he doesn't fix everything in 15 minutes,
You mean, LIKE THIS?:
ballzde...@gmail.com wrote:
> Well I am happy to reply that so far after 10
> minutes of work and the cans from mr Howes guide,
You mean The Amazing Puppy Wizard's FREE WWW Wits'
End Dog Training Method Manual <{); ~ ) >
> I have instilled the "come" command to Riley.
Good. You mean INSTALLED the come command as
a conditional reflex. Be SHORE to perform the
EXXXORCISES four times in each of four locations.
> He is an extremley smart dog, I have never had
> to go to the third or fourth try.
--------------------------
AND LIKE THIS?:
"Greg M. Silverman"
<gmsNOS...@no.umn.edu <mailto:gmsNOS...@no.umn.edu>>
wrote in message
Hey, Mr. Wizard, or Alchemist or whatever
your alias of the day is,
I have to say that our dog heels much better
than she did. This is after reading and
implementing the bit in your "Wits End" treatise.
And she's a royal nutter (but then again, aren't
they all?).
Cheers! Greg
-- --------------------
AND LIKE THIS?:
"Hennie van Dalen" <h.vandalen11***removethis...@chello.nl>
wrote in message news:TlsCb.2895$7U1.7896@amstwist00...
RTFM is age-old computer lingo.... It stands for
"Read The F***ing Manual" ;-) I used the manual
and it works very good!
But it is a long text to read (76 pages printed on
A4-size paper) My lab is 1year old now, and teaching
him something new takes about 30minutes
(depending on what to teach offcourse)
My other dog (a 7year old staffordshire terrier-mix) is a bit
slower in learning, but he is used to me calling him a "bad
dog"whenever he did something i didn't want him to do, or
it might be the age.
Sometimes it looks like Sam (the lab) WANTS to learn
something new: he wants me to bring along the can
filled with washers whenever we go for a walk. It is a
very "humane" way of teaching: the dog is allways a
"good dog", and never a "bad dog"
There is nu punishment or prong-collars involved.
For a fact i tought him to heel in 15min's without
beeing on a leach at-all !!! When he spotted a dog,
he used to run towards it, but now i tought him to "ask
permission" first, and to my surprise it worked!
My dogs never went to puppy-training
(lucky for them), maybe this helped too.
Manual can be found at http://www.doggydoright.com/id3.html
-- Hennie van Dalen www.chello.nl/~h.vandalen11
www.chello.nl/~h.vandalen11/fotografie/doggy-pictures/
---------------------
AND LIKE THIS?:
Hi, Jerry.
I'm not sure that I'm a 100% convert, or that I agree with
(or even understand) 100% of what you say in this manual ...
BUT ... we had "come" down pat in a few reps and you
could have knocked me down when I tried the exercise
with "drop" and, after a few reps in different spots Darwin
practically *threw* the rubber ball at my feet on command.
He's still not perfect (just a pup, after all, and he's
stubborn enough to want to push and test me a little bit
more).
For what it's worth, I can see (as no doubt you have) how
your usenet manner is likely to rankle a few folks, but that
woman who advocates ear pulling and beating with sticks
deserves everything she gets.
Even if that was the only method that would work, I'd live
with my dog not fetching rather than do any of that. (Darwin
fetches enthusiastically and instinctively, tho').
Best, ben
--------------------
AND LIKE THIS?:
From: <n> To: "Jerry Howe"
Sent: Saturday, December 28, 2002 5:21 PM
Subject: Re: Damned Family Leadership Exercise -
Re: Am I expecting to much
Hi Jerry,
When I talked to you on the phone to order to machine
for daughter's new pup, I told you that I had an older
Chessie. I rescued him at 9 years old and have had him
for 3 years.
It's funny, but I thought I'd try some of your book training
with him.
Where I used to say "come" and then say "good boy"
when he obeyed, I have reversed it with a "good boy" first.
It really does work. He was very confused at first,
wondering what he had done to get the praise.
But it really gets the attention and distracts him from
whatever he may have going through his brain when
he hears it.
Dogs are funny, but people are too. Can't wait to get
the Doggy do Right, etc.
Thanks,
N
--------------------
AND LIKE THIS?:
From: "BarbnBeau" <bdea...@cogeco.ca>
Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 01:52:30 -0500
Re: Puppy Wizard's Website
Hi Buzzsaw
Not a Thing to lose ...But a Lot To Gain!!
I can only speak from my experience.. I have a 8 month
old miniature poodle, and although I had done some basic
training with him we had a few barking issues ..ugh
I am happy to tell you, I contacted Jerry at the email
addy I posted and he was so great! I wasn't following
the technique precisely but he helped me get back on track.
Beau is doing sooooo well it is really a thrill working
with him, and seeing the remarkable changes.
Now I can ask for "recall" (come) both on and off lead
and it is immediate!
the first time I ask.
Best of Luck to you,
Remember if you need help or explanation contact Jerry ..
he will be more than happy to help anyway he can.
Cheers
Barb
-----------------------------------
AND LIKE THIS?:
"Leprechaun" <Leprech...@attglobal.net> wrote in message
news:m01Hc.20882$uK.1...@twister.tampabay.rr.com...
>Jerry believes he's a dog trainer.
Fortunately, I happen to believe he is too.
I took a rescued three year old beagle that
had been kept outside all of its life that didn't
even recognize or respond to its name to
Jerry's home (That ugly cinder block shack???
get real) and in just over one hour of working
with the dog, he was coming on command
(not a quickly as he does now, but still...) and
walking with us on a loose lead.
His "hot/cold" exercise and "come when called"
command and pack exercise WORK!
> and in all likelihood he's never even been near a dog.
Well, he's been near mine, and done wonders for him.
You don't have to like him. You don't have
to agree with his methods, but as far as I
am concerned, I've never seen any other
training approach that was as fast and easy.
<<<< Rest of original post deleted >>>>
Ron Flanagan
Orlando, Florida
-----------------------
AND LIKE THIS?:
"Ama...@DCFWatch.com" wrote:
No, the dog learned that I would hold still
the second she began to pull. She would pull
to go where *she* wanted.
Well if she wanted to stop and go in another
direction.. say to sniff my neighbors yard..
she learned if she wanted to do it I would stop
walking and she could go.. and if there wasn't
enough slack on her lead she would just pull me.
Then when she got done doing *her* thing, she woudl
heel.. smile at me and wait for me to say "let's go"
and finish *my* thing. I would refuse to move .. i
looked like an idiot.. freezing mid walk for minutes
waiting for *my* dog to heel and give *me* permission
to go again.
I did the treats and the let's go... she got to do her
stuff and get a cookie.. if she even wanted the cookie.
I wound up calling Jerry.. as I have a half red nose
pit and half amstaff.. who is incredibly protective..
we had a new pup on the way.. and i needed help.. i
followed petsmarts trainnign guides.. memorized them...
and they *did* work, don't get me wrong.. but only
when my pet wanted a cookie or felt the cookie was
better than what she wanted.. which was not often.
She quickly learned to ignore my commands if she
could see my hands were empty. So I called Jerry...
he chatted me for about an hour and a half.. gave me
his link... and even when i had probs intro'ing the
pup he called me withn i5 mins of my email for help
at 10pm on a sunday night.
One.. singular.. uno family pack exercise after
the hot and cold exercise and i could zig zag
down my street.. about face .. whatever.. and
never had tension.
two men were acrossed the street and she walked right
by them... ordinarily she'd snarl and protect us.
And in two days.. my dog.. who bit the puppy if he
even looked like he was going near my husband or kids..
is nursing him every hour.. cleaning him.. rough housing
gently.. and teaching him to go potty outside..
actually watches him to make sure he doesn't go in
the house... and has milk.. which is awesome since
she's 19 months old and has never had a litter.
She also has stopped barking non stop at our neighbor's
dogs and pig.. does not bark at eveyr car that drives by
and has stopped jumping on people. she's even starting
to ignore our cat who has lived on her dome litter box
and our window sill (literally) for over a year and a half.
She also does her commands on cue.. and doesn't look for a treat.
-----------------
AND LIKE THIS?:
From: Lindalee
To: Jerry Howe
Sent: Saturday, November 02, 2002 2:37 PM
Subject: Re: dog aggression -
Today Seemed Like A Miracle -
WELCOME TO WITS' END DOG TRAINING!
Sunshine is still acting like a new dog!
Saw a dog today and "good boy-" worked along
with calling him-came the first time every time.
Not even a sound out of him.
Think it is hard for him but he never even
seemed to think about going off-reacting.
The word come has no affect on him just
the phrase--Sunshine come goodboy.
--------------------
AND LIKE THIS?:
From: "Ray" <mikeflemi...@hotmail.com>
Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2001 19:41:46 GMT
Subject: re: Jerry Howe
Jerry, I will say this. You catch alot of flak in
this newsgroup and I've been peeping in here for 4
months since I got my Mastiff. I don't know you or
pretend to know you but the things that I've tried
that you've suggested HAS worked.
I've had dogs in the past that I bribed with food
and even spanked with a newspaper and honestly,
that didn't work.
The pack exercise worked, and getting my dog to
come to me is no problem after I used your exercise.
All of this WITHOUT food treats.
Even the "non-physical" praise was foreign to me, but
I see why it's a good idea. I can honestly tell that
this dog is more in tune with me and what I want him
to do and how our relationship should work.
Just wanted to say Thanks, and I may need your help
on a few more issues as they arise, like the border
training.
-----------------------
AND LIKE THIS?:
Saturday, December 25, 2004 11:35 AM
"P-Funk" <nizzle...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1103992516.7...@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.
com...
I have been using the non-physical praise and sound
distraction method with my Malamaute (wandering
breed and exstray) Rocko. He actually got the
picture, and came running back to me. This is a dog
who has not returned when anyone has called him.
Thanks for all the help. P.S. If there are any
techniques on helping dogs with space issues,
let me know.
Pfunk
---------------------------
AND LIKE THIS?:
Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2003 9:06 AM
Hello.
I never posted here (or anywhere) before.
I never trained or owned a dog before this
year.
I downloaded the Wit's End, read it, corresponded
with Mr. Howe and trained my dog to come and to
stop barking in a weekend.
Our dog, Jake, had been treated with kindness the
whole time we had him, about 10 months, but his
earlier life is unknown.
I worked on the hot-cold exercise for about 30
minutes when he suddenly "got it". After that
he came to me every time with no hesitation.
I used the cans filled with pennies to teach him
not to bark. If he now starts to bark, I go to the
door or window, say "Good Boy, its' alright" and
he usually calms down right away.
A couple of times I had to get the cans
out again to reinforce the behavior.
We feel a strong bond with this animal
and he is very eager to accept our love.
So with all the vitriolic spewing going on,
I have to believe Mr. Howe is right.
His method worked for us.
I don't know if it would have been quite
as effective if we had tried another method first.
Florence
------------------------------------
AND LIKE THIS?:
From: Eric
To: jho...@bellsouth.net
Sent: Friday, November 29, 2002 7:54 AM
Subject: just checking in..
Jerry!
You helped me with my pal Dundee about a year ago
regarding submissive peeing. Just wanted to let you
know he's doing great- he was "cured" in about 2 days
using your techniques!
He has since become the "smartest dog in the world"!
Once I stopped thinking like a human and got inside his
head, I can teach him ANYTHING, usually in a matter
of minutes. Makes me look like an expert dog-trainer.
I rescued two strays last week, cleaned 'em up, wormed
'em, and am getting them their shots. Time to get inside
their heads and teach them to teach themselves how to
be good dogs!
Instead of feeling like "training" is a chore, I look forward
to working with these guys a couple times a day...
Although I don't follow your instructions "to a T", I learned
from you to "think like a dog" and stimulate their brain rather
than beating ass or pinching, or any of that nonsense.
I know damn well I would NOT be loyal to someone who beat MY ass lol!
Well, just wanted to thank you for rattling the bushes
out there and teaching folks the RIGHT way to "train" dogs.
A horseman friend of mine uses very similar techniques in
training his horses- he calls it "natural horsemanship". He
is hated by nearly all the local "trainers" yet somehow he
repeatedly wins at every show he attends. He rarely shows
any more, but goes now and then to rub their noses in it
(pun intended)... Too cool....
Have a great holiday season and keep up the good work!
Eric , Dundee, Sammy, and Maynard
--------------------------
AND LIKE THIS?:
Subject: Re: Dog will not listen to anyone but me!
Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 11:33:36 -0500
Message-ID: uim43blqq1h...@corp.supernews.com
Okay, I gotta speak up here... We've been using Jerry's
methods with our dog. We had the same problem as the
original poster has with Buzz. One day working with the
family pack exercise and practicing the recall command
with the family and she'll now go out with hubby and
daughter instead of needing me to reassure her or even
refusing to go with anyone but me.
I really urge you, regardless of the negative things you
might hear about Jerry & Wits' End here, to try the method
and *judge the results for yourself*.
Let's see what other areas she's improved in... always
comes when called, not chewing stuff even if we leave
it laying around, "re"housebroken after long shelter stay,
walks perfectly on leash, doesn't try to steal food from
our plates or beg... probably a few more things I'm
forgetting to mention. *(Yeah, the kats lay off the koi
and don't wander. jh).
That's in about a week's time.
Her overall demeanor has changed. When we brought
her home she was very untrusting and ultra-submissive
(except with her area/toys where she was possessive and
nippy).
She had been abused and beaten by previous owners,
then she was in a shelter for months. They (most of them)
wanted to give up and kill her Now she's gained confidence
and trust with us. Last night was another big breakthrough
(in my eyes). She barked! Big deal, she barked just once
when she heard the front door. Great!
Anyway, you'll be told lots of nasty stuff about Jerry or that
the Wits' End manual is culled from other sources. In my
opinion, even if it is, it takes only the good stuff and leaves
out the bad. Works for me.
(And I suppose I gotta say this... I don't know Jerry personally.
I've emailed him and instant messaged him. I have not bought a
"Doggy Do Right". He's offered help for free.)
Ms. Mick Owen Crneckiy
http://www.crneckiy.com & http://tarot.crneckiy.com
E-mail & MSN Messenger: m...@crneckiy.com
AIM & Yahoo!: MickCrneckiy ~ ICQ: 72461227
======================
> but maybe not.
Yeah. You'd get the IDEA that ALL behaviors can be TRAINED
IN FIFTEEN MINUTES by simply readin the CASE HISTORY
DATA you can't believe is TRUE on accHOWENT of: "THEY
ALL SOUND LIKE HE WROTE THEM HIMSELF," janet
boss, lyin dog abusin mental case and professional dog trainin
FRAUD an SCAM ARTIST <{): ~ ) >
INSTEAD OF NEARLY INSTANLY
FOR
"I-M-P-O-S-S-I-B-L-E PROBLEMS".
LIKE THIS:
"Dan Moore" <mooret...@worldnet.att.net>
wrote in message
news:fS2Lc.114567$OB3....@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net.
Tracy,
What worked for me, in just one storm,
was to praise the dog after each clap
of thunder, telling him he's a Good Dog!
This is an almost 13 year old Doberman, BTW.
The next time it thundered, he did not even react at
all--you could not tell it was the same dog as before.
There was more thunder just the other day, and same
thing, nada, nothing, zilch, no cowering, whimpering,
trying to hide at all, it was that simple.
I got this idea from Jerry Howe, who might seem
to be a "wild and crazy" character, but his non-
abusive way of handling dogs WORKS.
Wonderfully.
Praise.
It's that simple.
Juanita
------------------------
AND LIKE THIS:
Subject: To Jerry
1 From: MarilynRammell
Date: Tues, Aug 3 1999 3:00 am
Email: "MarilynRammell" <marilynramm...@hotmail.com>
Groups: rec.pets.dogs.behavior
Hello Jerry,
A client of mine asked to say a 'big thank you' to you.
They have a 8 month spaniel that they were about to get
rid of.
In fact they had put her into kennels for a few day while
they 'thought it through'. They rang me the day before
they were due to collect her.
She had wrecked their home - everytime they left her she
destroyed something else. The walls, the cabinets, the
carpets, table legs, chair legs, - anything and everything.
They collected her and brought her to me. I gave them some
routine training exercises, and also I wrote out your advice
(I will say at this point that I was not sure about it at all,
and felt a little embarrassed - it was the advice about the
'toy dog that gets the praise for not making a mess'.
Anyway, this was 11 days ago and I heard nothing. Yesterday
they turned up at the new Monday evening class. They were
absolutely delighted.
They told me that after just one attempt, (your toy suggestion)
she 'stopped all the destruction'. They were in tear of happiness
while telling me.
Thank you Jerry.
Respectfully,
Marilyn
-------------------
AND LIKE THIS:
From: Hoku Beltz
To: The Puppy Wizard
Sent: Thursday, September 26, 2002 6:12 PM
Subject: Mahalo
Aloha Jerry,
Just wanted to let you know that the surrogate toy
technique is working wonders. I have not had a
shredded sheet for over a week now. It is nice
to be able to leave the bed made and come home
to a made bed.
Your program is awesome, but you already know
that. Keep up the good work!
Hoku
==================
"Hoku Beltz" <h...@rsphawaii.com> wrote in message
news:SN2k9.45447$V7.10...@twister.socal.rr.com...
Aloha Sunny,
Just follow the training program to the letter, no matter how
insignificant some of the step seem to be and your pupy will
be a very well behaved dog in a few days.
I would seriously consider backing out of the training classes
as they will conflict with the Wit's End principles.
I went the training route first, and still had problems until I
found Wits' End. Now I have two "new and improved" dogs.
You won't be dissapointed if you follow the program.
Good luck,
Hoku
-----------------------
AND LIKE THIS:
From: "nicole" <To: "Jerald D. Howe">
Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2003 10:46 AM
Subject: Off to a good start!
Hi Jerald, Just wanted to tell you we read
your manual and have started working with
the dogs...
"Chloe" (the one we adopted--a. k. a.
"The Destroyer") has already shown
great improvement! (In Just 1 DAY!)
She responds even better than our other
(better-behaved) dog "Poe".
We tried out the surrogate toy technique, and
not a thing was touched when we got back!
We were both surprised because Chloe isn't
that interested in toys and was still very uptight
about us reaching for the door... anyway, it
seemed to work.
We both work all day today so we'll see
how that goes... Regardless, we will be
cool as cukes when we get home! ;)
I'm just so thankful we might have a chance
to get through to her! We're very excited about
her progress thus far...
Thank You!
Nicole, Michael, Poe and especially Chloe!
______________________
AND LIKE THIS:
From: Chris Williams (k9ap...@webtv.net)
Subject: Re: Thank you Jerry Howe
Date: 2002-03-26 08:16:19 PST
Engrossing account, Anthony. Our best to Angel
and your family.
A friend, who socializes the kittens I've taken
from a feral cat colony, is using the DDR.
She reports far fewer panic problems than
she's had before.
---------------------------
AND LIKE THIS:
Chris Williams writes:
"The FREE Wits' End Dog Training Method manual
I do find valuable. Much of it I recognize as what
I've always done without thinking of it as "training".
New stuff, I've used. His anchoring technique erased
the last of Mac's fireworks trauma,"
====================
> Ya gotta give it to him for not editing ALL of the times he gets bitten.
Dogs ONLY bite when they're AFRAID, judith.
LIKE THIS, judith:
From: "Valerie M. Holmes" <Holme...@worldnet.att.net>
Date: Fri, 31 May 2002 02:07:23 GMT
Subject: Aggressive Dal from shelter
I recently adopted a female, spayed 3 1/2 yr old
dalmatian from a no-kill shelter. She spent 2
years in the shelter and naturally she has some
socialization issues to overcome.
My problem is I am not quite sure HOW to tackle these issues. . .
1. She is aggresive toward **ALL** other dogs, even
dogs that have shown that they are willing to be submissive.
Upon sight of a dog, she lunges and snarls.
2. She is usually kind and affectionate toward her owner
(me), but recently began turning sour and for no apparent
reason snarls toward me! This has completely destroyed
the trust we were building over the past month.
3. She deals with visitors, but is very anxious around
people she doesn't know. At first she would scream if
a stranger petted her with 2 hands. I just don't trust
her around anyone yet.
4. She lunged at my sisters 2 year old the same way she
lunged toward other dogs, aggressively.
I really really like this dog, when she is calm and able
to relax. I want to keep her, but I don't really know
what the best way to establish the necessary trust.
Any ideas out there?
Val writes Monday, 6/3/02:
Well, for what it's worth, I am praising without
physical contact and she does seem to listen
better than when I would praise with it. I agree
that it is a distraction.
Anyway, no more aggressive behaviors from
her since I started the Witts End.
----------
AND LIKE THIS, judith:
From: BNTDO...@aol.com
To: jho...@bellsouth.net
Sent: Saturday, July 27, 2002 10:26 PM
Subject: Re: THANKS ALISON! - "Owners Should Always
Be Given The Cold, Hard Facts: They Should NEVER FEEL
GUILTY For Having An Aggressive Dog Euthanized."
Dear Jerry,
It's Kay here. I don't know who these people are that
maligning you and your training manual but tell them
from me that it does work.
Hunter is just doing so well even the people who
advocated putting him down are impressed with him.
I even started using it with the neighbor's dog. I went over
there to help her cut his nails. She started yelling at him
for growling at me. I told her to tell him what a good boy he
is instead. Lo and behold he stopped growling and I could
do his nails. All 4 feet.
My dog Hunter was trained with the old jerk and pull method
and my other dog was trained with treats. Hunter has gotten
his enthusiasm back for his training and I couldn't be more
pleased.
He even tried to kiss a child the other day.
Major break through.
This is the dog that a few months ago tried to eat the kids
through the fence. I can now take him in the car with me
again without him trying to chase cars through the windshield.
So Jerry tell these people that the first rule
of dog training is Do No Harm.
The 2nd rule is whatever works without breaking the first rule.
Aggressive dogs don't need to be put down.
Hunter was diagnosed aggressive and he is going
to stay alive and by my side where he belongs.
Thank you so much.
Kay
=====================
Your pal "the ces" HURTS and INTIMIDATES dogs, judith.
Since you're such a dedicated fan of the ces perhaps you
seen "Southpark's" rendition of the ces workin with kids?
INSTEAD OF LIKE THIS, judith:
"my grandchildren will never ever.. ever.. feel
shame or feel like they're not loved :).
then i heard him tell someone on the news group "Do you
think hitting babies is intelligent" and i was like whoa..
now i feel like cockaroach and pray every time i distract
them that they can somehow grow up not to hate me..
and i pray i caught myself in enough time." Amanda.
Subject: Re: Discipline
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2003 02:43:46 -0500
From: Amanda <ama...@dcfwatch.com>
To: "N
On Wednesday 15 January 2003 01:54, "N wrote:
i responded in katie's mail.. youll get it before this one :)
i'm not the expert.. mr. howe is teaching me.. and im
figuring alot out.. plus its just coming to me.. two months
ago i would cry cuz i was soooo lost... and now i go ahead
and live it... like he gave me just enough for my brain to fill
in the rest?
when i would swat in my early parent years.. up until i got
crunchy this last year.. i swore spanking was great.. a lil
bit of fear in yo' momma is what i would say.. and my
family supported me.. you can spank and not be abusive.
------------
AND LIKE THIS, judith:
Jerry, after reading some of the threads in the news
group, I can't for the life of me understand why this
many people are so dang blind or ignorant.
You just keep plugging away at what you do, because
you my friend are a life saver!!!
Anytime you need someone to speak about the results
of your product, you have my number. We would gladly
talk to them.
Thank you very much for all your help. God bless you...
Anthony & Linda Testa
Jacksonville, Florida
-----------------
> LOL ..
"the ces" used the same SECRET SHOWEND and throat pinch
on the kid an IT WORKED. Only PROBLEM was the kid
decided to run away from his HOWES after MURDERIN his
doting mommy JUST LIKE HOWE DOGS DO <{} ; ~ ) >
> I don't think he has all of the answers
You mean based on YOUR OWN POSTED CASE
HISTORY of JERKIN an CHOKIN your own FEAR
AGGRESSIVE HYPERACTIVE DOG FIGHTING
DOGS and EXXXCESSIVE CHEWIN problems, judith?
> but who does?
> I still like watching him.
He HURTS and INTIMIDATES and witholds so
called redwards attention and uncondition love
an trust, and THAT'S HOWE COME he gets bit.
NORMAL PEOPLE MURDER DOGS WHO BITE THEM.
Don't they, judith.
> PS I love your sig
Yeah. Perhaps he should tell folks in his sig that
he's a mentally disabled welfare recipient trainsexual
wannabe who murders kats for pleasure and murders
dogs at the local SHELTER where he gets paid in dog
food.
He just does it on accHOWENT of he LOVES MURDERIN dogs.
> Be Free,
Like HOWE you do, judith. But ONLY when NECESSARY.
> Judy
From: "George von Hilsheimer, Ph.D." <drv...@mindspring.com
To: <d...@arcane-computing.com
Sent: Tuesday, January 04, 2005 5:38 PM
Subject: Doggy advice
Scott, Jerry Howe forwarded me the letter below.
I'm glad that you referred negatively to Jerry's
habit of CAPITALIZING and HOWEING everything.
I personally hate this habit of his. I think it is his
way of diluting his authority - IME he is a very modest
fellow. However, contrary to your sneer, he is very
competent at living with dogs.
I thought I'd list a series of actions which I found
on the list, folk asking advice on what to do about
dogs doing this and that, for example:
whining,
humping, hunching,
pacing,
self mutilation - paw licking, side sucking,
spinning,
prolonged barking, barking at shadows,
overstimulated barking,
fighting, bullying other dogs,
compulsive digging,
compulsive scratching,
compulsive chewing,
frantic behavior,
chasing light, chasing shadow,
stealing food,
digging in garbage can,
loosing house (toilet) training.
inappropriate fearfulness
aggression.
The thing that is fascinating to me, as an ethologist who
graduated from college 50 years ago and has spent all of
the intervening time working with animals (including the
human animal), is that you never see any of these behaviors
in wild dingoes, jackals, coyotes or wolves, you don't even
see these behaviors in hyenas (who aren't dog related).
You see these behaviors in human managed animals, especially
animals who live with neurotic hysterical humans.
As Sam Corson (Pavlov's last student) demonstrated for
nearly 50 years at Ohio University (Oxford, O.) there
is no treatment more useful for dogs than tender loving
care.
George von Hilsheimer, Ph. D., F. R. S. H., Diplomate,
Academy of Behavioral Medicine
================================
---------------------------------
Here's professor "SCRUFF SHAKE and SCREAM NO! into ITS face for
five seconds and lock IT in a box for ten minutes contemplation"
dermer of the Department of ANAL-ytic Behavior at UofWI, pryor:
From: Marshall Dermer (der...@alpha1.csd.uwm.edu)
Subject: Re: Jerry's Dog Training Manual
Date: 2001-07-12 06:49:13 PST
And how do we know this aspect of his
advice is right?
Jerry is not God and his manual is not the Bible.
His advice could be subject to an empirical analysis.
(Also, it is best to killfile posts from the
few regulars here who are either ill-tempered,
ill-mannered, or just plain ill.=AD),
--Marshall
Marshall Lev Dermer/ Department of Psychology/ University of
Wisconsin-Milwaukee/ Milwaukee, WI 53201/ der...@uwm.edu
http://www.uwm.edu/~dermer
"Life is just too serious to be taken entirely seriousyl!"
Here's professor dermer AFTER gettin JERRYIZED:
"We Are Lucky To Have You, And More People Should
Come To Their Senses And Support Your Valuable Work.
God Bless The Puppy Wizard," Professor Marshall Dermer,
Dept Of ANAL-ytic Behavior, UofWI.
From: "Marshall Dermer" <der...@csd.uwm.edu>
To: "The Puppy Wizard"
<ThePuppyWiz...@earthlink.net>
Sent: Friday, July 23, 2004 2:53 PM
Subject: God Bless The Puppy Wizard
Dear Mr. Puppy Wizard,
I have, of late, come to recognize your genius
and now must applaud your attempts to save
animals from painful training procedures.
You are indeed a hero, a man of exceptional talent=AD,
who tirelessly devotes his days to crafting posts =ADto
alert the world to animal abuse.
We are lucky to have you, and more people should
come to their senses and support your valuable
work.
Have you thought of establishing a nonprofit
charity to fund your important work?
Have you thought about holding a press conference
so others can learn of your highly worthwhile
and significant work?
In closing, my only suggestion is that you
try to keep your messages short for most
readers may refuse to read a long message
even if it is from the wise, heroic Puppy Wizard.
I wish you well in your endeavors.
--Marshall Dermer
-------------
In The Problem Animal Behavior BUSINESS
FAILURE MEANS DEATH.
SAME SAME,
For The Problem Child Behavior BUSINESS.
The Puppy Wizard's SYNDROME Is the Perfect Synergy Of
Love, Pride, Desire, Shame, Greed, Ego, Fear,
Hate, Reflex, Self Will,
Arrogance, Ignorance, Predjudice, Cowardice,
Disbelief, Jealousy, Embarrassment, Embellishment,
Guilt, Anger, Hopelessness, Helplesness,
Aversion, Attraction, Inhibition, Revulsion, Repulsion,
Change, Permanence, Enlightenment, Insult, Attrition,
And
Parental / ReligiHOWES / Societal Conditioning.
YOU ARE THE CRITTER YOU WAS TRAINED.
It Is The Perfect Fusion Of The Word..., In The Physical.
The Sincerely Incredibly Freakin Insanely Simply
A-M-A-Z-I-N-G
GRAND
Puppy, Child, Pussy, Birdy And Horsey Wizard <{} ; ~ ) >
"It is by muteness that a dog becomes
so utterly beyond value."
Like a confessor Priest?
"With him,
words play no torturing tricks..., "
--John Galsworthy.
Don't bet your dog won't tell on you...
Their behaviors reflect
our words, actions and training quirks.
Jerry HOWE, The Puppy Wizard. <{} ; ~ ) >
"If you talk with the animals, they will talk with you
and you will know each other.
If you do not talk to them, you will not know them,
and what you do not know you will fear.
What one fears, one destroys."
Chief Dan George
The Methods, Principles And Philosophy Of Behavior
Never Change,
Or They'd Not Be Scientific
And Could Not Obtain
Consistent, Reliable, Fast, Safe Effective Results
For All Handler's And All Critters
And ALL Behaviors
ALL OVER THE WHOWEL WILD WORLD,
NEARLY INSTANTLY,
As Taught In Your FREE Copy Of The Simply Amazing
Puppy Wizard's 100% CONSISTENTLY NEARLY INSTANTLY
SUCCESSFUL FREE WWW Wits' End Dog Training Method
Manual <{): ~ ) >
Disciple Paulie Sez:
"No One Understands How Wits End Training Really
Works, They Assume It's All Nicey Nicey And don't
Realise It's A Very Disciplined Method That Deals With
Any Situation And The Foundation Is Built On Trust
And Understanding.
I've never forced my dogs to do anything, I tell them
they are good dogs and they seem to follow me, once
I told them they were bad dogs and they ran away from
me, now I only ever tell them they are good dogs and
they always are, always.
Trust your dog, ask it to do your request and say "good
dog" sincerely at the end of the request and I bet you'll
find your dog thinking then responding everytime.
A bit of respect works wonders, the same rule applies
to every aspect of the relationship with your dog.
Obedience and affection are not related, if they were
everyone would have obedient dogs.
I have found giving dogs "payment" in advance i.e. "Sam
sit goodboy" makes the dogs want to respond, after all,
all dogs want to be "good dogs" and if you tell them they
are good then they feel an obligation to obey your request.
Telling Sam he's a good dog AFTER he sit's apart from
been too late is also a gamble because if he doesn't
sit then there's no positive interaction.
Paul
"Think not that I am come to send peace on earth:
I came not to send peace,
but a sword.
"For I am come to set a man at variance against his father,
and the daughter against her mother,
the daughter in law against her mother in law
and the scholar against his professors.
"And a man's foes shall be they of his own HOWEshold."
The Puppy Prophet <{); ~ ) >
All truth passes through three stages.
First, it is ridiculed.
Second, it is violently opposed.
Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.
-Arthur Schopenhauer
"Thank you for fighting the fine fight--
even tho it's a hopeless task,
in this system of things.
As long as man is ruling man,
there will be animals (and humans!)
abused and neglected. :-(
Your student," Juanita.
"If you've got them by the balls their hearts
and minds will follow,"
John Wayne.
Yours,
Jerry Howe,
Director of Research,
Human And Animal Behavior
Forensic Sciences Research Laboratory,
BIOSOUND Scientific,
Director of Training,
Wits' End Dog Training
1611 24th St
Orlando, FL 32805
Phone: 1-407-425-5092
The Sincerely Incredibly Freakin Insanely Simply Amazing
GRAND
Puppy, Child, Pussy, Birdy And Horsey Wizard <{} ; ~ ) >
ANY QUESTIONS, DUMMIES?
,-._,-,
V)"(V
(_o_) Have a great day!
/ V)
(l l l) Your Puppy Wizard. <{YPW); ~ } >
oo-oo
Sionnach
"Michael A. Ball" <Guar...@wireco.net> wrote in message
>
> Hint for folks who Do think Cesar is God: in television production, one
> can edit out all of the things that fail to work
Based on the last episode I saw, they're also editing out hanging dogs by
a thin nylon choke collar. It was a dog-aggressive Pit, and was being
restrained from an attack on another dog, but I thought it rather dishonest
to edit that way.
>or go haywire.
Yes, well, I'd also call letting a dog-aggressive Pit grab hold of one of
my dogs "going haywire", which they DID show. Or rather, showed a few
seconds of, then cut away, then cut back and miraculously the two dogs are
seperate, and Cesar's got the Pit up on her hind legs, with the thin choke
collar dug into her neck.
Handsome Jack Morrison
wrote:
>"Michael A. Ball" <Guar...@wireco.net> wrote in message
>>
>> Hint for folks who Do think Cesar is God: in television production, one
>> can edit out all of the things that fail to work
>
> Based on the last episode I saw, they're also editing out hanging dogs by
>a thin nylon choke collar. It was a dog-aggressive Pit, and was being
>restrained from an attack on another dog, but I thought it rather dishonest
>to edit that way.
I haven't seen that episode.
What exactly is the "edited" out part?
If they "edited it out," how did you know what it was?
And what exactly is wrong with "hanging" (i.e., raising the PITBULL'S
front feet off the ground) this particular dog-aggressive PITBULL with
a "thin nylon choke collar"?
Maybe, a la Leah, you would have preferred it if he had stuck his
finger in the dog's butt hole instead?
>>or go haywire.
>
> Yes, well, I'd also call letting a dog-aggressive Pit grab hold of one of
>my dogs "going haywire", which they DID show. Or rather, showed a few
>seconds of, then cut away, then cut back and miraculously the two dogs are
>seperate, and Cesar's got the Pit up on her hind legs, with the thin choke
>collar dug into her neck.
Why do you consider that to be "going haywire"?
I presume the dog-aggressive PITBULL belonged to the client?
He usually brings dog-aggressive dogs down to his training center for
some "socializing" by his 30-40 dog pack. Spats are bound to occur,
don't you agree?
And presumably (because I didn't see the episode) the PITBULL attacked
one of Cesar's dogs, and not the other way around?
Since you're not a professional dog trainer, you don't rehabilitate
dogs, work in rescue, etc., what *you* would "let" a dog do is pretty
much irrelevant, isn't it?
I would wonder, in fact, what the purpose of a collar and leash is, if
it's not to help the handler control his dog when the shit hits the
fan.
<sigh>
--
Handsome Jack Morrison
"If Tehran insists on combining the Persian imperial tradition with contemporary Islamic fervor, then a collision with
America -- and, indeed, with its negotiating partners of the Six -- is unavoidable. Iran simply cannot be permitted to
fulfill a dream of imperial rule in a region of such importance to the rest of the world."
http://www.theadventuresofchester.com/archives/2006/07/kissinger_on_ir.html
Obsession: Radical Islam’s War with the West (a must-see movie, especially for Shelly, who's probably still
trying to figure out who "'these people,' good grief" are. Heck, she's still trying to figure out who the Nazis were):
http://www.obsessionthemovie.com/
If you don't want your own CD, you can view the movie here:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6162397493278181614&hl=en
It's over an hour long, so make some popcorn, crack open a beer, and take a good, hard look at what's coming.
Or...you can keep your head stuck in the sand.
Shelly
> And what exactly is wrong with "hanging" (i.e., raising the PITBULL'S
> front feet off the ground) this particular dog-aggressive PITBULL with
> a "thin nylon choke collar"?
I don't think Sarah was criticizing hanging. I haven't seen the
episode, but if it were edited to omit how the Pit Bull was brought
out of attack mode, then yeah, I'd have to say it's dishonest. And,
it does a disservice to the breed. If it takes hanging or a break
stick to handle the dog, then I think that should be shown.
--
Shelly (Warning: see label for details)
http://www.cat-sidh.net (the Mother Ship)
http://esther.cat-sidh.net (Letters to Esther)
Suja
"Handsome Jack Morrison" <handsomeja...@gmail.com> wrote in message:
>
> Maybe, a la Leah, you would have preferred it if he had stuck his
> finger in the dog's butt hole instead?
I'm not making this up.
Guy at the dog park was telling me the other day about how his first Boxer
turned out to be dog aggressive. When he was young, he was attacked, on two
separate occasions, by two different pitbulls. Each time, the owners of the
aggressor broke up the dog fight by sticking their finger up the dog's
behind.
I didn't ask what they did with their hands afterwards.
Suja
Handsome Jack Morrison
wrote:
>Handsome Jack Morrison wrote:
>
>> And what exactly is wrong with "hanging" (i.e., raising the PITBULL'S
>> front feet off the ground) this particular dog-aggressive PITBULL with
>> a "thin nylon choke collar"?
>
>I don't think Sarah was criticizing hanging.
Then I don't know what she was criticizing.
>I haven't seen the
>episode, but if it were edited to omit how the Pit Bull was brought
>out of attack mode, then yeah, I'd have to say it's dishonest.
I assume it was brought out of attack mode by "hanging" the Pit Bull.
At least that's what Sarah implied by saying: "and Cesar's got the Pit
up on her hind legs, with the thin choke collar dug into her neck."
>And, it does a disservice to the breed. If it takes hanging or a break
>stick to handle the dog, then I think that should be shown.
Not all Pit Bull "attacks" require the use of a break stick, Shelly,
especially if you're as good a handler as Cesar is.
And the "hanging" part *was* shown, right?
I've seen him "hang" other dog-aggressive dogs, on other episodes,
too.
Don't you agree that Cesar's show (compared to any other trainer's
show) broadcasts many, many things that the average dog owner never
sees?
And just because you haven't seen something yet doesn't mean that you
won't see it eventually, right?
But I'm not as certain as you are that, for example, not showing a
full-blown Pit Bull fight, requiring the use of break sticks, etc.,
necessarily does "a disservice to the breed."
Handsome Jack Morrison
wrote:
>"Handsome Jack Morrison" <handsomeja...@gmail.com> wrote in message:
>> Maybe, a la Leah, you would have preferred it if he had stuck his
>> finger in the dog's butt hole instead?
>
>I'm not making this up.
>
>Guy at the dog park was telling me the other day about how his first Boxer
>turned out to be dog aggressive. When he was young, he was attacked, on two
>separate occasions, by two different pitbulls. Each time, the owners of the
>aggressor broke up the dog fight by sticking their finger up the dog's
>behind.
It's not impossible, of course, that something like that could work on
some pit bulls, some of the time.
Me?
I'm sticking with a break stick, thankyouverymuch.
But if I ever find myself without one, ya' never know...
>I didn't ask what they did with their hands afterwards.
I hope I never have to worry about that.
Shelly
> Not all Pit Bull "attacks" require the use of a break stick, Shelly,
Yeah, I realize that. Note that I said "If..."
> especially if you're as good a handler as Cesar is.
JQP is not St. Cesar, which was my point. We're talking about a
teevee show here. I assume the point of it is to show JQP how to
deal with different behavior issues? *If* the dog was hung, but the
hanging was edited out, then JQP is not any wiser about how to deal
with dog-dog aggression in Pit Bulls.
> And the "hanging" part *was* shown, right?
I don't know. I got the impression, and I could well be wrong, that
Sarah was criticizing that the hanging was hinted at but not really
shown. *If* he hung the dog, but it was edited out and was not
referenced, then I'd say that it was dishonest and unhelpful.
> Don't you agree that Cesar's show (compared to any other trainer's
> show) broadcasts many, many things that the average dog owner never
> sees?
Did you not see the part where I said I haven't see his show? So,
I'm not in a position to criticize it favorably or disfavorably.
I'm just explaining how *I* interpreted Sarah's post.
> But I'm not as certain as you are that, for example, not showing a
> full-blown Pit Bull fight, requiring the use of break sticks, etc.,
> necessarily does "a disservice to the breed."
That wasn't what I said.
Handsome Jack Morrison
wrote:
>Handsome Jack Morrison wrote:
>
>> Not all Pit Bull "attacks" require the use of a break stick, Shelly,
>
>Yeah, I realize that. Note that I said "If..."
Then "if" you agree, and Sarah agrees, that not all Pit Bull attacks
require the use of a break stick, what's all the commotion about?
I can't imagine that that episode was intended to describe in full how
to handle Pit Bulls when they attack other dogs.
>> especially if you're as good a handler as Cesar is.
>
>JQP is not St. Cesar, which was my point.
But JQP is WARNED, oh, several dozen freakin' times each episode,
*not* to use these techniques themselves, without the supervision of a
professional dog trainer -- so your point, if you will, is still lost
on me.
He says: "I rehabilitate dogs. I train owners."
I do wonder, however, why you feel the need to sarcastically refer to
him as "St. Cesar" (having never seen the show) simply because some
folks here think he's pretty good at what he does, and that he has a
good show, etc.
And I think that says more about you than it does us.
>We're talking about a
>teevee show here. I assume the point of it is to show JQP how to
>deal with different behavior issues?
That's part of it, but they're repeatedly WARNED not to try this shit
at home, etc.
>*If* the dog was hung, but the
>hanging was edited out, then JQP is not any wiser about how to deal
>with dog-dog aggression in Pit Bulls.
But the "hanging" wasn't edited out.
And I bet that Cesar didn't recommend that anyone should do what *he*
does, especially without professional help.
>> And the "hanging" part *was* shown, right?
>I don't know. I got the impression, and I could well be wrong, that
>Sarah was criticizing that the hanging was hinted at but not really
>shown.
What part of "and Cesar's got the Pit up on her hind legs, with the
thin choke collar dug into her neck" did you not understand?
>*If* he hung the dog, but it was edited out and was not
>referenced, then I'd say that it was dishonest and unhelpful.
I don't agree. What *he* did, what *he* was doing, etc. to
"rehabilitate" the dog, is not necessarily what he tells owners to do.
I do things myself while rehabilitating a dog that I would never
recommend anyone else do. Because they couldn't do it, and I wouldn't
want them to even try. So, no, I wouldn't show them how *I* do it. No,
I don't think that's being "dishonest" or "unhelpful."
>> Don't you agree that Cesar's show (compared to any other trainer's
>> show) broadcasts many, many things that the average dog owner never
>> sees?
>
>Did you not see the part where I said I haven't see his show?
Not one?
>So, I'm not in a position to criticize it favorably or disfavorably.
>I'm just explaining how *I* interpreted Sarah's post.
Maybe Sarah will eventually tell us what her point was.
Because I don't have a clue.
>> But I'm not as certain as you are that, for example, not showing a
>> full-blown Pit Bull fight, requiring the use of break sticks, etc.,
>> necessarily does "a disservice to the breed."
>
>That wasn't what I said.
Here's exactly what you said:
>I haven't seen the
>episode, but if it were edited to omit how the Pit Bull was brought
>out of attack mode, then yeah, I'd have to say it's dishonest.
>And, it does a disservice to the breed. If it takes hanging or a break
>stick to handle the dog, then I think that should be shown.
And I stand by my previous comment.
Shelly
> Then "if" you agree, and Sarah agrees, that not all Pit Bull attacks
> require the use of a break stick, what's all the commotion about?
The question is, was a significant portion of the equation edited
for teevee? If I understand Sarah correctly, she seems to think so.
> I can't imagine that that episode was intended to describe in full how
> to handle Pit Bulls when they attack other dogs.
No, I don't expect it was. However, if the subject was "Here's how
I dealt with this particular Pit Bull attack on another dog," then
editing out what would seem to me to be the meat and potatoes of the
How makes the whole thing kinda pointless. *If* it was edited out.
That said, the bigger question is what is the point of the show? Is
it purely entertainment? If so, then it doesn't really matter. Or
is it meant to be instructional? I don't know the answer to that
question, since I've not seen it. Hopefully, it's clear to the
viewer whether it's meant to be instructional or entertaining.
> But JQP is WARNED, oh, several dozen freakin' times each episode,
> *not* to use these techniques themselves, without the supervision of a
> professional dog trainer -- so your point, if you will, is still lost
> on me.
Ah. So it *is* just entertainment. Never mind, then.
> I do wonder, however, why you feel the need to sarcastically refer to
> him as "St. Cesar"
It's not God I have a problem with, it's his followers--folks like
Pfoley and Judith (and Leah and the Jerryites), who are in search of
someone's ring to kiss. It's nothing to do with Cesar (how could
it?), and everything to do with those who worship him.
> What part of "and Cesar's got the Pit up on her hind legs, with the
> thin choke collar dug into her neck" did you not understand?
I'm questioning whether or not it was shown how he got from point A
to point B. Point B being the dog on its hind legs, hung. Does he
explain how and why that happened? Or is it glossed over/edited
out? Not that it matters, because apparently this is just
entertainment.
> I do things myself while rehabilitating a dog that I would never
> recommend anyone else do.
There's a difference between recommending and explaining "This is
how/why I did what I did and how I got from A to B."
> And I stand by my previous comment.
Nowhere did I recommend showing a full-blown dog fight.
Handsome Jack Morrison
wrote:
>Handsome Jack Morrison wrote:
>
>> Then "if" you agree, and Sarah agrees, that not all Pit Bull attacks
>> require the use of a break stick, what's all the commotion about?
>
>The question is, was a significant portion of the equation edited
>for teevee? If I understand Sarah correctly, she seems to think so.
I presume that quite a bit of what actually goes on is "edited out."
Which, as I understand it, is what happens with any filmed production,
the finished product of which must fit within a 22 minute show.
But Sarah was explicit: "and Cesar's got the Pit up on her hind legs,
with the thin choke collar dug into her neck."
Even though you keep ignoring that part of her post.
>> I can't imagine that that episode was intended to describe in full how
>> to handle Pit Bulls when they attack other dogs.
>
>No, I don't expect it was. However, if the subject was "Here's how
>I dealt with this particular Pit Bull attack on another dog," then
>editing out what would seem to me to be the meat and potatoes of the
>How makes the whole thing kinda pointless. *If* it was edited out.
But it wasn't edited out, going by Sarah's own words. See above.
I suggest that you actually watch the show, at least one episode, so
that you won't have to ask such silly questions.
>That said, the bigger question is what is the point of the show? Is
>it purely entertainment?
The point of the show, IMO, is to show viewers (presumably viewers who
own dogs) that their dog's behavior is almost always a direct
reflection of their own behavior.
YMMV.
How entertaining that is to you, or to anyone else, is, of course,
debatable.
Note: I presume a tangential point of the show is that Cesar would
like to make some money on it, selling books, etc. which is the
"point" of every professional dog trainer.
>If so, then it doesn't really matter. Or
>is it meant to be instructional?
You should watch the show.
It's also meant to be instructional, particularly regarding how owners
should act and behave around their dogs.
It's not that hard to pick up other bits of helpful "stuff," too.
>I don't know the answer to that
>question, since I've not seen it. Hopefully, it's clear to the
>viewer whether it's meant to be instructional or entertaining.
Watch the show.
>> But JQP is WARNED, oh, several dozen freakin' times each episode,
>> *not* to use these techniques themselves, without the supervision of a
>> professional dog trainer -- so your point, if you will, is still lost
>> on me.
>
>Ah. So it *is* just entertainment. Never mind, then.
Ibid.
>> I do wonder, however, why you feel the need to sarcastically refer to
>> him as "St. Cesar"
>
>It's not God I have a problem with, it's his followers--folks like
>Pfoley and Judith (and Leah and the Jerryites), who are in search of
>someone's ring to kiss. It's nothing to do with Cesar (how could
>it?), and everything to do with those who worship him.
So...simply by speaking positively about a trainer is now akin to
worship?
Shelly, when you find yourself in a hole that you can't get out of,
it's really not helpful to keep digging.
>> What part of "and Cesar's got the Pit up on her hind legs, with the
>> thin choke collar dug into her neck" did you not understand?
>
>I'm questioning whether or not it was shown how he got from point A
>to point B. Point B being the dog on its hind legs, hung.
You keep snipping out this part, so I'll keep reinserting it:
>What part of "and Cesar's got the Pit up on her hind legs, with the
>thin choke collar dug into her neck" did you not understand?
At least until you get around to answering the question.
>Does he
>explain how and why that happened?
Presumably, the viewer saw the Pit Bull lunge for a dog, and then the
viewer saw Cesar "hang" the dog in response.
That's going by Sarah's own words, plus what I've seen happen on other
episodes.
Presumably, the "why" it happened was because the dog was
dog-aggressive. Presumably, the "how" it happened was that he brought
the dog-aggressive down to his center to be "socialized" by his pack
of 30-40 dogs, most of which seem to be Pit Bulls (and other dominant
breeds).
>Or is it glossed over/edited
>out? Not that it matters, because apparently this is just
>entertainment.
Just the opposite. Compared to other trainers' shows, Cesar's is the
Real Deal.
>> I do things myself while rehabilitating a dog that I would never
>> recommend anyone else do.
>
>There's a difference between recommending and explaining "This is
>how/why I did what I did and how I got from A to B."
That's not the point of his show.
>> And I stand by my previous comment.
>
>Nowhere did I recommend showing a full-blown dog fight.
Yet you refuse to clarify what you claim that you did say, preferring
instead to use selective snipping to further obfuscate the issue.
I.e., you're speaking in tongues again.
Suja
"Handsome Jack Morrison" <handsomeja...@gmail.com> wrote in message:
> But JQP is WARNED, oh, several dozen freakin' times each episode,
> *not* to use these techniques themselves, without the supervision of a
> professional dog trainer
I am running into an unbelievable number of people (most of these people are
NOT idjits) who take his word as gospel, and think that they can solve
problems the way he does. We were talking about an episode that dealt with
a vizsla with some serious fear and resource guarding issues. I just threw
in the towel when people just refused to be rational about
nonconfrontational methods working for such issues, and insisted that since
they are the pack leader, the dogs should just automagically stop all that
behavior (even CM with all his dog handling skills got bitten when he set up
the dog to resource guard, but that part just doesn't seem to have
registered). I just know a couple of people who are going to get bitten
over stupid stuff, and the dog is going to get the short end of that, in the
end.
Suja
Handsome Jack Morrison
wrote:
>"Handsome Jack Morrison" <handsomeja...@gmail.com> wrote in message:
>
>> But JQP is WARNED, oh, several dozen freakin' times each episode,
>> *not* to use these techniques themselves, without the supervision of a
>> professional dog trainer
>
>I am running into an unbelievable number of people (most of these people are
>NOT idjits) who take his word as gospel, and think that they can solve
>problems the way he does.
Tell them that they probably could, provided they knew HOW to use his
methods correctly, and as smoothly, and as confidently, etc., as he
does. Which, of course, they probably don't.
Otherwise they'd be "Dog Whisperers," too. :D
>We were talking about an episode that dealt with
>a vizsla with some serious fear and resource guarding issues. I just threw
>in the towel when people just refused to be rational about
>nonconfrontational methods working for such issues, and insisted that since
>they are the pack leader, the dogs should just automagically stop all that
>behavior (even CM with all his dog handling skills got bitten when he set up
>the dog to resource guard, but that part just doesn't seem to have
>registered).
Yes, I saw that episode.
Yes, he got bitten. He's been bitten on several of the episodes I've
watched. Being bitten goes with the territory, when you're
rehabilitating dogs with aggression problems. Knowing what makes a dog
bite, knowing the amount of bite inhibition of a certain dog, etc., is
part of the job.
As far as convincing *your* friends that there are other ways to skin
a cat, good luck with that!
Not my job, mon.
But I would think that watching even Cesar getting bitten should
convince these folks that they shouldn't try this shit at home, don't
you think? Unless they enjoy being bitten, that is.
>I just know a couple of people who are going to get bitten
>over stupid stuff, and the dog is going to get the short end of that, in the
>end.
Yabbut they're getting bitten already, ain't they?
I.e., the vizsla had bitten the owners several times already, which
was why Cesar was called.
And most of these "problems" can be avoided altogether if the owner
would stop acting so submissively in the first place. Of course,
these folks don't see themselves as acting submissively, because they
treat their dogs like "fur babies," and don't have a clue as to how a
*dog* looks at it.
Plus, confrontation isn't necessarily a bad thing, provided you know
how, when, etc. -- or you seek help with it.
Shelly
> I suggest that you actually watch the show,
I couldn't even if I wanted to.
> So...simply by speaking positively about a trainer is now akin to
> worship?
Nope. Fetishizing him is, though. Some folks might call them
Shining Pathers, FWIW. It's more about their need to follow someone
blindly than it is about who they are following. Like I said
elsewhere, I'm neutral on Cesar himself, obviously, as I don't know
anything about him. His fans, though, are so far thoroughly
unimpressive.
> You keep snipping out this part, so I'll keep reinserting it:
>
>
>>What part of "and Cesar's got the Pit up on her hind legs, with the
>>thin choke collar dug into her neck" did you not understand?
It seems to me that you must be working pretty hard in order to keep
missing my original point so thoroughly.
Sarah said that based on the last episode she saw, they're "editing
out hanging dogs..." She followed that up with the observation that
Cesar had the dog on its hind legs, presumably holding it by the
collar. It sounds to me like Sarah is saying that everything
between the dog's attack and its hanging was edited out. IOW how
the two dogs were separated is not addressed. (That does not mean
that a full-blown fight has to be shown, BTW.)
My original point was that it does a disservice to the breed not to
address how the fight was broken up and why the dog was being hung.
But, since you appear to be saying that the show is geared
toward and edited for entertainment purposes, my original reading of
Sarah's post is irrelevant.
> Yet you refuse to clarify what you claim that you did say, preferring
> instead to use selective snipping to further obfuscate the issue.
It is not necessary to show a full-blown dog fight in order to show
how to break one up. Surely you are smart enough to understand that?
Suja
> Yabbut they're getting bitten already, ain't they?
Nope. The dogs threaten, and they've backed off. So far. Now, they think
they can go 'Psssh!', use the hand like a dog uses its mouth, yank the dog
around and presto! Problem solved.
> I.e., the vizsla had bitten the owners several times already, which
> was why Cesar was called.
I didn't think the dog had bitten. The owners seemed to think that the dog
was only protecting what was rightfully its, since they gave it the resource
to guard and all. At least that's what I remember.
> because they
> treat their dogs like "fur babies," and don't have a clue as to how a
> *dog* looks at it.
I cringe every time I hear that. My dogs are furry and I love them to
pieces, but they're not kids. And thank goodness for that.
> Plus, confrontation isn't necessarily a bad thing, provided you know
> how, when, etc. -- or you seek help with it.
That is part of the problem. Someone with natural authority or who knows
what they're doing is not going to have dogs with serious problems (the
usual caveats apply, of course). The ones that have allowed the problems to
develop till now are not going to be able to all of a sudden radiate
confidence, start setting proper rules and boundaries, and learn leash
handling skills, no matter how much they watch a dog trainer on TV.
Suja
TaraG
"Suja" <span...@scs.gmu.edu> wrote in message
news:iYLzg.84756$ZW3.66710@dukeread04...
This has been one of my main areas of hackling when it comes to his show.
Its not just having an impact of transforming idiots into "just add water"
experts in behavioral problems. Its having that odd effect on otherwise
semi-clued in people as well. Just had a lesson with a client for one case
of the dog challenging her over dropping food. The dog walker (an avid CM
fan and self admitted wannabe dog trainer) gave her some advice that would
have had this woman being highly confrontational about every waking moment
of that dog's life (which was severe overkill in this case, and likely would
have made the problem worse). Its not necessarily *his* fault, per se, but
its also not just a simple matter of putting up a few disclaimers. Something
weird is going on here, and it *is* having a deleterious impact. Its also
helping a lot of people do a better job of caretaking their pets, I'm
told....though I have yet to see that first-hand, so I'm going off of what
people on this ng are reporting on that.
Tara
Handsome Jack Morrison
wrote:
>Handsome Jack Morrison wrote:
>
>> I suggest that you actually watch the show,
>
>I couldn't even if I wanted to.
If you don't have cable, get the DVDs.
If you don't have a DVD player, drive out to California and watch his
show being filmed.
If you don't want to do anything, at last have the sense to stay out
of issues you're clearly clueless about.
I know, that's never stopped you before, but one can still hope.
>> So...simply by speaking positively about a trainer is now akin to
>> worship?
>
>Nope. Fetishizing him is, though.
I don't see anyone "fetishizing" him.
I do see, however, some folks demonizing him,.
Apparently even folks who haven't even seen his show!
What a maroon.
>Some folks might call them
>Shining Pathers, FWIW.
Shining Pathers believe that their way is the *only* way.
I don't see anyone here claiming that Cesar's way is the only way.
But it's one way, and it happens to be on cable TV, so people are
talking about it.
If you want people to talk about someone else, feel free to offer up
another name, another show, etc.
>It's more about their need to follow someone
>blindly than it is about who they are following. Like I said
>elsewhere, I'm neutral on Cesar himself,
When you haven't taken the time to actually watch the show, that's the
smart thing to do.
An even smarter thing to do, IMO, is to refrain from calling people
who have actually seen the show, and are discussing the show,
"fetishizers."
Unless you just want people to think that you're stupid.
>obviously, as I don't know
>anything about him. His fans, though, are so far thoroughly
>unimpressive.
Well, I don't know if merely defending him qualifies me as a fan, but
I'm pretty damn impressive nonetheless.
I wonder. Does thinking that Pavlov's work on conditioning theory was
pretty good make you his "fan"?
>> You keep snipping out this part, so I'll keep reinserting it:
>>
>>
>>>What part of "and Cesar's got the Pit up on her hind legs, with the
>>>thin choke collar dug into her neck" did you not understand?
>
>It seems to me that you must be working pretty hard in order to keep
>missing my original point so thoroughly.
Your point was, based on Sarah's post, that the "hanging" was edited
out.
I gave you Sarah's own words, which explicitly claimed just the
opposite, but like the ankle biter that you are, you just can't let
go.
If that wasn't your point, please state what your point was, or is,
and please do it without speaking in tongues.
>Sarah said that based on the last episode she saw, they're "editing
>out hanging dogs..."
How can that be if she also said: "and Cesar's got the Pit up on her
hind legs, with the thin choke collar dug into her neck."
What exactly do you think "hanging" a dog means?
>She followed that up with the observation that
>Cesar had the dog on its hind legs, presumably holding it by the
>collar. It sounds to me like Sarah is saying that everything
>between the dog's attack and its hanging was edited out.
What part do you think was "edited out"?
Please be as specific as possible, however hard that may be for you to
do.
The episode apparently showed the Pit Bull attacking another dog (per
Sarah), and presumably Cesar used the leash to "hang" the Pit Bull to
separate them, which also comes by way of Sarah.
>IOW how
>the two dogs were separated is not addressed. (That does not mean
>that a full-blown fight has to be shown, BTW.)
Scene One: Pit Bull attacks dog.
Scene Two. Cesar "hangs" Pit Bull on his leash, which separates the
two dogs.
Scene Three. Cesar still "hanging" the Pit Bull, dogs separated.
Cut!
<sigh>
>My original point was that it does a disservice to the breed not to
>address how the fight was broken up and why the dog was being hung.
Oh, please.
The How: He broke up the fight by "hanging" the Pit Bull by his leash.
The Why: Because the Pit Bull attacked another dog.
Why do you want to make it any more difficult or complicated than
that?
If you were walking *your* dog down the street on a leash, and *she*
tried to attack a dog that passed by, what the hell would *you* do?
<sigh>
What exactly do you think a leash is for, anyway?
> But, since you appear to be saying that the show is geared
>toward and edited for entertainment purposes, my original reading of
>Sarah's post is irrelevant.
No, those are your words, not mine.
Here's my words:
The show is geared to showing people that their dogs' behavior
"problems" are a direct reflection of how they interact (or don't
interact) with their dogs.
If the manner in which this is done, however, wasn't "entertaining,"
no one would watch, would they?
I'm easily entertained, yes, especially if it involves *dogs* in any
way, so it's inconceivable to me that any *dog* lover wouldn't be
"entertained" by watching his show -- which is about *dogs.*
>> Yet you refuse to clarify what you claim that you did say, preferring
>> instead to use selective snipping to further obfuscate the issue.
>
>It is not necessary to show a full-blown dog fight in order to show
>how to break one up. Surely you are smart enough to understand that?
But he did show viewers how to break up *this* fight, you freakin'
idiot. He's also done the very same thing (presumably) on other
episodes (that I've actually seen), with other dogs.
According to Sarah own words, he "hung" the Pit Bull (as the
aggressor) on his leash and separated (as in pulled apart) the two
dogs.
What's the BFD?
Damn, you're freakin' dense.
Please, stick to returning books to their cubby holes.
At least you know something about that.
Presumably.
Handsome Jack Morrison
wrote:
>"Handsome Jack Morrison" <handsomeja...@gmail.com> wrote in message:
>
>> Yabbut they're getting bitten already, ain't they?
>
>Nope. The dogs threaten, and they've backed off. So far. Now, they think
>they can go 'Psssh!', use the hand like a dog uses its mouth, yank the dog
>around and presto! Problem solved.
Well, Cesar did that, and he got bitten, didn't he? :D
>> I.e., the vizsla had bitten the owners several times already, which
>> was why Cesar was called.
>
>I didn't think the dog had bitten. The owners seemed to think that the dog
>was only protecting what was rightfully its, since they gave it the resource
>to guard and all. At least that's what I remember.
I thought the dog had bitten them, but I wouldn't bet the farm on it.
And by repeatedly backing off, the dog's aggression could only get
worse. A confrontation was called for, IMO.
>> because they
>> treat their dogs like "fur babies," and don't have a clue as to how a
>> *dog* looks at it.
>
>I cringe every time I hear that. My dogs are furry and I love them to
>pieces, but they're not kids. And thank goodness for that.
Me too. Well, cringe ain't exactly how I'd describe it.
I actually start to barf. Yes, it makes me that sick, when I hear
those words.
>> Plus, confrontation isn't necessarily a bad thing, provided you know
>> how, when, etc. -- or you seek help with it.
>
>That is part of the problem. Someone with natural authority or who knows
>what they're doing is not going to have dogs with serious problems (the
>usual caveats apply, of course). The ones that have allowed the problems to
>develop till now are not going to be able to all of a sudden radiate
>confidence, start setting proper rules and boundaries, and learn leash
>handling skills, no matter how much they watch a dog trainer on TV.
Well, maybe not all of a sudden (although some of the "problems" are
easily curable, and pretty quickly, too, just by adopting one rule:
"Don't let them do that!"), but slowly, gradually, they CAN get there.
I see it happen every day.
Especially if they get some professional help.
Which Millan PLEADS for them to do, each and every episode.
Toni
>
> If you don't have a DVD player, drive out to California and watch his
> show being filmed.
>
Several clips and features available on YouTube
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1gAV3hDbeKc&search=dog%20whisperer
--
Toni
http://www.cearbhaill.com/rules.htm
Shelly
> If you don't have cable, get the DVDs.
I think you've mistaken me for someone who has an interest in
watching dog trainers on teevee. I don't find that to be very
entertaining.
> I don't see anyone "fetishizing" him.
Yeah, those "What Would Cesar Do" posts were not at *all* fetishizing.
> I don't see anyone here claiming that Cesar's way is the only way.
Kinda like Mr. "What Would Cesar Do" Pfoley. I felt the same way
whenever Leah got all starry eyed over her big-shot trainer crush of
the week. The object of her desire was irrelevant. It was the
fetishizing that was wack-a-doodle. You can put the Jerryites and
the PPers in the same category.
> An even smarter thing to do, IMO, is to refrain from calling people
> who have actually seen the show, and are discussing the show,
> "fetishizers."
I don't have to have seen the show to know that people like Pfoley
are full of shit, and that they are a little too fanatical about
following a single person's teachings.
> I wonder. Does thinking that Pavlov's work on conditioning theory was
> pretty good make you his "fan"?
I dunno. Do you go around waxing rhapsodically about what Pavlov
*might* do in any given situation? Are you capable of discussing
behavior in any context besides Pavlovian theory?
I doubt it, because while you're clearly a jackass, you are also
clearly not a dumbass.
[Snip a bunch of stuff that I'm beyond giving a shit about, and that
I've already said I think is irrelevant.]
Shelly
> Are you capable of discussing
That ought to be *in*capable.
Handsome Jack Morrison
wrote:
>Handsome Jack Morrison wrote:
>
>> If you don't have cable, get the DVDs.
>
>I think you've mistaken me for someone who has an interest in
>watching dog trainers on teevee. I don't find that to be very
>entertaining.
Then please excuse me! Because I mistook you for someone who wanted
to know at least something about which you were talking about.
I should have known better.
>> I don't see anyone "fetishizing" him.
>
>Yeah, those "What Would Cesar Do" posts were not at *all* fetishizing.
If one were to substitute the name Karen Pryor for Cesar Millan, would
you still think it was "fetishizing"? I don't think so.
I think there's something else going on here, and it's kind of ugly.
>> I don't see anyone here claiming that Cesar's way is the only way.
>
>Kinda like Mr. "What Would Cesar Do" Pfoley. I felt the same way
>whenever Leah got all starry eyed over her big-shot trainer crush of
>the week. The object of her desire was irrelevant. It was the
>fetishizing that was wack-a-doodle. You can put the Jerryites and
>the PPers in the same category.
Again, and I repeat: No one here, not even "Pfoley" claimed that
Millan's way was the only way.
It just happens to be one way, and that way is on TV currently, and
that's why people are talking about Cesar Millan.
If, say, Karen Pryor, had a popular show on TV, we'd be talking about
her, too.
All the "fetishizing" going on is simply an artifact of your very
vivid imagination.
>> An even smarter thing to do, IMO, is to refrain from calling people
>> who have actually seen the show, and are discussing the show,
>> "fetishizers."
>
>I don't have to have seen the show to know that people like Pfoley
>are full of shit, and that they are a little too fanatical about
>following a single person's teachings.
Then demonize "Pfoley," not Millan.
Or Leah, not Millan.
>> I wonder. Does thinking that Pavlov's work on conditioning theory was
>> pretty good make you his "fan"?
>
>I dunno. Do you go around waxing rhapsodically about what Pavlov
>*might* do in any given situation?
If he had a POPULAR show on cable TV, I might.
>Are you capable of discussing
>behavior in any context besides Pavlovian theory?
Yes, I am.
Do you think, for example, that the folks here who have spoken well of
Millan and his show can't do precisely that?
If so, what was it exactly that made you think so?
>I doubt it, because while you're clearly a jackass, you are also
>clearly not a dumbass.
http://www.ilovewavs.com/Effects/Animals/Donkey02.wav
But thanks, I'll take that as a compliment!
>[Snip a bunch of stuff that I'm beyond giving a shit about, and that
>I've already said I think is irrelevant.]
Good! It shows progress on your part!
To know when to stop digging is Job One, when it comes to getting out
of a hole!
Handsome Jack Morrison
>"Handsome Jack Morrison" <handsomeja...@gmail.com> wrote in message >
>> If you don't have cable, get the DVDs.
>>
>> If you don't have a DVD player, drive out to California and watch his
>> show being filmed.
>Several clips and features available on YouTube
>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1gAV3hDbeKc&search=dog%20whisperer
Thanks, Toni!
Nice overview.
Now, if we can somehow pry Shelly's little head out of the ground to
get her to watch it...
Here, you take her left leg, I'll take her right.
On the count of three -- PULL!
One.
Two.
THREE!
Handsome Jack Morrison
wrote:
[]
>>>I doubt it, because while you're clearly a jackass, you are also
>>>clearly not a dumbass.
>>
>> http://www.ilovewavs.com/Effects/Animals/Donkey02.wav
>>
>> But thanks, I'll take that as a compliment!
>>
>>>[Snip a bunch of stuff that I'm beyond giving a shit about, and that
>>>I've already said I think is irrelevant.]
>>
>> Good! It shows progress on your part!
>>
>> To know when to stop digging is Job One, when it comes to getting out
>> of a hole!
>shelly has no interest in training dogs. She's made this statement many
>times over the years. She does enjoy knocking the major trainers theories
>though. Have you -ever- heard her accept any "major" (as in famous)
>trainers theories as sound?
>Does this surprise you?
Nothing about our little Shelly surprises me.
>If a show is educational and has value,
>and provides a service for an audience large enough to have a popular
>following, count on shelly to knock it.
Well, she does enjoy knocking stuff. Which is okay, of course.
But I think someone should at least have a modicum of knowledge about
it first, don't you agree?
Being totally ignorant about a topic doesn't even slow our little
Shelly down, no sirree.
She speeds up, in fact!
>Even if she HASN'T ever seen one of
>his shows.. ....and then, count on Melinda to validate her sentiments.
Yeah, I'm waiting for her to check in, too.
You do know that no one has ever seen Shelly and Melinda together in
the same room, right?
http://tzone.the-croc.com/sounds/twiltzon.mid
Suja
"Handsome Jack Morrison" <handsomeja...@gmail.com> wrote in message:
> Well, Cesar did that, and he got bitten, didn't he? :D
So did one of these people, and now he's worried the dog has crossed into
the 'Red Zone', and is considering dumping it. His dog is fearful, has been
for as long as I've known her. They've done nothing other than leaving her
alone to deal with it. Now they've tried what 'worked for CM' and good
golly, it didn't work for *their* dog. I've given them my copy of 'The
Cautious Canine', hoping that they'd at least read it; it's a whole 20 pages
or so long. But it was returned with the comment 'Caesar never does any of
that'. But then how do you explain to someone that densensitization and
counter conditioning don't exactly make for exciting TV? They have
trainer/behaviorist recommendations, but as far as I know, haven't had any
sort of professional evaluation of their dog.
> And by repeatedly backing off, the dog's aggression could only get
> worse. A confrontation was called for, IMO.
But there are ways to deal with it without confrontation and getting bitten
as well. It may be more practical for someone with lesser dog handling
skills to take the path that is least likely to get them bitten.
Suja
ceb
@dukeread04:
> The ones that have allowed the problems to
> develop till now are not going to be able to all of a sudden radiate
> confidence, start setting proper rules and boundaries, and learn leash
> handling skills, no matter how much they watch a dog trainer on TV.
>
Well, hey, I learned my FEAR OF GOD voice from a newsgroup...
(Not that I am defending the show, which I have never seen.)
I also got in-person help, which was indeed crucial.
--
Catherine
& Zoe the cockerchow
& Queenie the black gold retriever
& Max the Pomeranian
& Rosalie the calico
Shelly
wrote:
>shelly has no interest in training dogs. She's made this statement many
>times over the years.
Post proof or retract!1!!!
>She does enjoy knocking the major trainers theories
>though. Have you -ever- heard her accept any "major" (as in famous)
>trainers theories as sound?
What "major" trainer have I knocked? And, please feel free to be
specific.
>Does this surprise you? If a show is educational and has value,
>and provides a service for an audience large enough to have a popular
>following, count on shelly to knock it.
I haven't knocked it. I *have* knocked some of its viewers. HTH!
--
Shelly
http://www.cat-sidh.net (the Mother Ship)
http://esther.cat-sidh.net (Letters to Esther)
In order to change a color it is enough to change the color of its
background.
-- Michel Eugene Chevreul
Shelly
<handsomeja...@gmail.com> wrote:
>Now, if we can somehow pry Shelly's little head out of the ground to
>get her to watch it...
As soon as you spring for the satellite DSL, I'll get to it. TIA!
--
Shelly
http://www.cat-sidh.net (the Mother Ship)
http://esther.cat-sidh.net (Letters to Esther)
Merz is a smile at the grave and gravity on cheerful occasions.
-- Kurt Schwitters
Shelly
>Several clips and features available on YouTube
>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1gAV3hDbeKc&search=dog%20whisperer
That's not an option for me.
--
Shelly
http://www.cat-sidh.net (the Mother Ship)
http://esther.cat-sidh.net (Letters to Esther)
I is for Ida who drowned in a lake.
-- Edward Gorey, The Gashlycrumb Tinies
Handsome Jack Morrison
wrote:
>"Handsome Jack Morrison" <handsomeja...@gmail.com> wrote in message:
>
>> Well, Cesar did that, and he got bitten, didn't he? :D
>
>So did one of these people, and now he's worried the dog has crossed into
>the 'Red Zone', and is considering dumping it.
That may well be the best choice.
But I hope they get some in-person, hands-on professional help before
they make that decision.
Dogs who basically live in the "Red Zone" are extremely rare, and
either belong in very experienced hands only, or they should be
humanely euthanized.
Dogs who visit the "Red Zone" when they're allowed, or are even
encouraged, to do so, by cluelsss owners, are pretty common, although
are usually quite easy to rehabilitate, provided their owners get with
the program, too.
And then there's dogs who seem to be utterly incapable of even
temporarily visiting the Red Zone, no matter what their owners do or
don't do, and they are legion.
>His dog is fearful, has been
>for as long as I've known her. They've done nothing other than leaving her
>alone to deal with it.
An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.
>Now they've tried what 'worked for CM' and good
>golly, it didn't work for *their* dog.
Oh, it probably would have worked for their dog, had they been able to
do "it" properly, at the right time, etc.
>I've given them my copy of 'The
>Cautious Canine', hoping that they'd at least read it; it's a whole 20 pages
>or so long. But it was returned with the comment 'Caesar never does any of
>that'. But then how do you explain to someone that densensitization and
>counter conditioning don't exactly make for exciting TV? They have
>trainer/behaviorist recommendations, but as far as I know, haven't had any
>sort of professional evaluation of their dog.
Well, that's what they need to do, and ASAP.
Tell them it's what Cesar would want them to do. :)
>> And by repeatedly backing off, the dog's aggression could only get
>> worse. A confrontation was called for, IMO.
>
>But there are ways to deal with it without confrontation and getting bitten
>as well. It may be more practical for someone with lesser dog handling
>skills to take the path that is least likely to get them bitten.
Absolutely.
But sometimes, especially when the "problem" is first surfacing,
confronting or addressing the problem immediately, rather than
ignoring it or making excuses for it, etc., is exactly what's called
for.
Maybe Millan's show will help get that point across.
Handsome Jack Morrison
wrote:
>On Tue, 01 Aug 2006 16:23:47 -0400, Handsome Jack Morrison
><handsomeja...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>Now, if we can somehow pry Shelly's little head out of the ground to
>>get her to watch it...
>
>As soon as you spring for the satellite DSL, I'll get to it. TIA!
No broadband at the ol' library?
<sigh>
Suja
> That may well be the best choice.
I seriously doubt she'll make it out of the shelter alive. There aren't
very many people who want to take in the dog that's sitting at the far end
of the cage, cowering.
> But I hope they get some in-person, hands-on professional help before
> they make that decision.
You'd think that they would do that, but they haven't.
> And then there's dogs who seem to be utterly incapable of even
> temporarily visiting the Red Zone, no matter what their owners do or
> don't do, and they are legion.
This dog is where Khan was 5 years ago, when we adopted him. Except, I
haven't seen them work with her on it, so she's basically the same now as
she has was a year ago.
> Well, that's what they need to do, and ASAP.
>
> Tell them it's what Cesar would want them to do. :)
My guess, based on what I've been able to learn. They think that CM is the
only person who can rehab this dog, and until he either comes here to work
with their dog, or they move to California, it ain't happening. They really
do worship at his altar, and 'Any good dog trainer should be able to help
you ' just doesn't fly, because they feel that their dog is as bad as all
those dogs they've seen on TV and therefore takes extra special, super duper
dog trainer. I feel bad for the dog, and they've been coming to the dog
park less and less frequently, which I take to be a bad sign. This is one
dog that needs to get out as much as possible.
> Maybe Millan's show will help get that point across.
The exercise thing, pretty much everyone seems to get. 'Must be pack
leader', they get. Most don't seem to have the first clue about how to go
about it though, and some have some pretty bizarre interpretations of what
that entails. For instance, did you know that my dogs will develop behavior
problems because they get pets, hugs and kisses?
Suja
Handsome Jack Morrison
wrote:
>"Handsome Jack Morrison" <handsomeja...@gmail.com> wrote in message:
>
>> That may well be the best choice.
>
>I seriously doubt she'll make it out of the shelter alive. There aren't
>very many people who want to take in the dog that's sitting at the far end
>of the cage, cowering.
Oh, she's still at the shelter?
She's probably not going to get any better while she's *in* the
shelter, so if there's any way to get her out of the shelter, even for
a few weeks time, so she can be worked with in a less stressful
environment, she'll have a much better chance at becoming adoptable.
>> But I hope they get some in-person, hands-on professional help before
>> they make that decision.
>
>You'd think that they would do that, but they haven't.
I'm confused. Doesn't the shelter have some professional source that
they can call upon for this?
>> And then there's dogs who seem to be utterly incapable of even
>> temporarily visiting the Red Zone, no matter what their owners do or
>> don't do, and they are legion.
>
>This dog is where Khan was 5 years ago, when we adopted him. Except, I
>haven't seen them work with her on it, so she's basically the same now as
>she has was a year ago.
<sigh>
>> Well, that's what they need to do, and ASAP.
>>
>> Tell them it's what Cesar would want them to do. :)
>
>My guess, based on what I've been able to learn. They think that CM is the
>only person who can rehab this dog, and until he either comes here to work
>with their dog, or they move to California, it ain't happening.
Well, I try never to account for what doofuses do.
>They really
>do worship at his altar, and 'Any good dog trainer should be able to help
>you ' just doesn't fly, because they feel that their dog is as bad as all
>those dogs they've seen on TV and therefore takes extra special, super duper
>dog trainer.
Most of the dogs I've seen on Millan's show were really pretty decent
dogs -- with a few hang ups.
Their owners were *severely* fucked up, but the dogs were pretty nice,
even the so-called "aggressive" ones.
>I feel bad for the dog, and they've been coming to the dog
>park less and less frequently, which I take to be a bad sign. This is one
>dog that needs to get out as much as possible.
Oh. She's the foster person?
But yeah, get the dog out of the shelter, if possible.
>> Maybe Millan's show will help get that point across.
>
>The exercise thing, pretty much everyone seems to get. 'Must be pack
>leader', they get. Most don't seem to have the first clue about how to go
>about it though, and some have some pretty bizarre interpretations of what
>that entails. For instance, did you know that my dogs will develop behavior
>problems because they get pets, hugs and kisses?
Then they ain't really paying attention to Millan (you need to start
hanging out with smarter people, Suja!), because he's never said that.
At least not in the episodes I've seen.
What he has said, is that the exercise and the discipline must come
*before* the affection, not in lieu of it.
Exercise. Discipline. Affection.
http://www2.oprah.com/tows/booksseen/200605/tows_book_20060522_cmillan.jhtml
PS: This is the only link to Oprah's site that I've ever made, and I'm
going to do my very best to see that it never, ever happens again.
Eeuuwww.
Suja
"Handsome Jack Morrison" <handsomeja...@gmail.com> wrote in message:
> Oh, she's still at the shelter?
Not that I know of, but that's probably how she'll behave if she gets there.
This dog doesn't trust any people other than her inner circle. She's seen
me fairly reguarly (in the beginning anyway) and still won't come within 5
ft. The only person I've seen be able to touch her in all this time is her
owner.
> Then they ain't really paying attention to Millan (you need to start
> hanging out with smarter people, Suja!), because he's never said that.
> At least not in the episodes I've seen.
He hasn't, but there is no emphasis on praise for example, as any kind of
reinforcer. Lots of people seem to take that as 'You must not praise the
dog' (or at least that there is no need to praise the dog) because they
should just do what the pack leader says, and that's that. There are other
truly bizarre leaps being made, like what he does can be applied completely
linearly to *teaching* brand spanking new behaviors, such as a simple sit or
a down. And of course, the dog must know what the human expects of them
because they are the pack leader, after all.
> PS: This is the only link to Oprah's site that I've ever made, and I'm
> going to do my very best to see that it never, ever happens again.
>
> Eeuuwww.
I sure hope not.
Suja
Amy Dahl
> They really
> do worship at his altar, and 'Any good dog trainer should be able to help
> you ' just doesn't fly, because they feel that their dog is as bad as all
> those dogs they've seen on TV and therefore takes extra special, super duper
> dog trainer. I feel bad for the dog, and they've been coming to the dog
> park less and less frequently, which I take to be a bad sign. This is one
> dog that needs to get out as much as possible.
I am privileged to write for a couple of dog magazines. This came about,
not because I'm the best dog trainer out there, but because I'm a dog
trainer who can write.
I haven't seen Cesar Milan, but I'm guessing he's a dog trainer with
good TV potential--communication skills, charisma, sense of timing
and showmanship, something of the kind. Do you think there's any
chance of convincing them that there are many good dog trainers, but
only a few on TV?
I know, it's hard to convince anyone of anything....
Amy DAhl
Handsome Jack Morrison
<handsomeja...@gmail.com> wrote:
>On Tue, 1 Aug 2006 19:32:45 -0400, "Suja" <span...@scs.gmu.edu>
>wrote:
>>"Handsome Jack Morrison" <handsomeja...@gmail.com> wrote in message:
>>
>>> Oh, she's still at the shelter?
>>
>>Not that I know of, but that's probably how she'll behave if she gets there.
>>This dog doesn't trust any people other than her inner circle. She's seen
>>me fairly reguarly (in the beginning anyway) and still won't come within 5
>>ft. The only person I've seen be able to touch her in all this time is her
>>owner.
Owner? Foster parent, right?
Anyway...they need to get the help of a qualified professional. The
dog needs proper exposure to many, many humans, under many different
conditions, etc. Again, rehab work ain't easy.
The fact that the Foster parents have had the dog for an entire year,
with no discernable progress, testifies to that fact.
It's almost certainly not the dog. It's the Foster parents.
Unfortunately, the dog will end up paying the price for it.
>>> Then they ain't really paying attention to Millan (you need to start
>>> hanging out with smarter people, Suja!), because he's never said that.
>>> At least not in the episodes I've seen.
>>
>>He hasn't, but there is no emphasis on praise for example, as any kind of
>>reinforcer.
Well, again, he ain't training the dog, he's training the owner.
He does tell the owners, quite often in fact, to only praise the dog
once the dog reaches a "calm, submissive state," etc.
>>Lots of people seem to take that as 'You must not praise the
>>dog' (or at least that there is no need to praise the dog) because they
>>should just do what the pack leader says, and that's that.
Well, that may be what *they* take from the show, but that's not what
Millan's preaching.
Perhaps this is yet another indication of how bad our public schools
are doing? :D
>>There are other
>>truly bizarre leaps being made, like what he does can be applied completely
>>linearly to *teaching* brand spanking new behaviors, such as a simple sit or
>>a down. And of course, the dog must know what the human expects of them
>>because they are the pack leader, after all.
Maybe the kind of professional help your friends need most is of the
psychiatric kind?
bet...@aol.com
> > *not* to use these techniques themselves, without the supervision of a
> > professional dog trainer
>
> I am running into an unbelievable number of people (most of these people are
> NOT idjits) who take his word as gospel, and think that they can solve
> problems the way he does. We were talking about an episode that dealt with
> a vizsla with some serious fear and resource guarding issues. I just threw
> in the towel when people just refused to be rational about
> nonconfrontational methods working for such issues, and insisted that since
> they are the pack leader, the dogs should just automagically stop all that
> behavior (even CM with all his dog handling skills got bitten when he set up
> the dog to resource guard, but that part just doesn't seem to have
> registered). I just know a couple of people who are going to get bitten
> over stupid stuff, and the dog is going to get the short end of that, in the
> end.
>
Ooo! Suggest that they start watching "Mythbusters" and try and
recreate scenes from the show even though Adam and Jamie do the don't
try this at home disclaimer twice per show.
It would clean out the gene pool.
Beth
bet...@aol.com
These people remind me of a woman at the local dog obedience club.
She has a tough, male Aussie and she is a wimp. A nice person, but a
wimp.
She read Jean Donaldson and took that to mean that she should cook for
her dog, put him in his own chair wearing a bib and feed him that way.
Now, I haven't read everything Jean Donaldson has written, but if that
is her way of keeping a tough dog on the straight and narrow I'm gonna
barf.
And I do believe this woman is well educated and high functioning in
most departments, just not the any dog that isn't stuffed department.
Beth
Shelly
wrote:
>Do I really need to? with all the posts you have posted regarding your
>casual attitudes toward training?
That does not equate to having no interest in training dogs.
I have never proclaimed to be anything but an average pet owner. I
don't know why that irritates you so much. It's downright weird.
>> What "major" trainer have I knocked? And, please feel free to be
>> specific.
>>
>Torin Rugaas
Turid, perhaps? In any event, I can't find anything in Google that was
written by me with the name Rugass in it. I think you must be confusing
me with someone else. It wouldn't be the first time.
I don't doubt that I've poked fun at some of the things that have been
said by folks here *about* Rugass' work, but that has nothing to do with
Rugaas.
--
Shelly
http://www.cat-sidh.net (the Mother Ship)
http://esther.cat-sidh.net (Letters to Esther)
E is for Ernest who choked on a peach.
Shelly
<handsomeja...@gmail.com> wrote:
>No broadband at the ol' library?
Sorry, but I have no intention of cruising YouTube on my work machine.
Just how dumb do you think I am, anyway?
--
Shelly
http://www.cat-sidh.net (the Mother Ship)
http://esther.cat-sidh.net (Letters to Esther)
Whose pig is this?
-- Eddie Izzard
Handsome Jack Morrison
wrote:
>On Tue, 01 Aug 2006 17:35:23 -0400, Handsome Jack Morrison
><handsomeja...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>No broadband at the ol' library?
>
>Sorry, but I have no intention of cruising YouTube on my work machine.
Well, you really don't have to "cruise" anywhere. The direct link to
the Millan video was provided for you.
Plus, it's hard to believe that a librarian isn't allowed to "cruise"
the Internet anytime she wants, in the interest of "research," of
course.
But hey, if you no wanna, you no gotta.
>Just how dumb do you think I am, anyway?
I certainly don't think you're dumb.
Quite the contrary.
In fact, most of the time you give good advice.
I just don't understand your fugly habit of ripping on things that you
obviously know little or nothing about.
But ours is not to reason why...
--
Handsome Jack Morrison
Lest we forget:
http://hotair.com/archives/the-blog/2006/07/27/video-kevin-cosgroves-911-call-from-the-world-trade-center/
Melinda Shore
bet...@nospam.goaway.con <bet...@aol.com> wrote:
>Now, I haven't read everything Jean Donaldson has written, but if that
>is her way of keeping a tough dog on the straight and narrow I'm gonna
>barf.
That's really, really funny.
Donaldson is an advocate of hand feeding (temporarily) as a
way of letting the dog know exactly where his food comes
from. I'm not sure how that woman translated it into what
she translated it into. I'd ask her.
--
Melinda Shore - Software longa, hardware brevis - sh...@panix.com
Bad policies lead to bad results.
Sionnach
"Shelly" wrote:
> *If* the dog was hung, but the hanging was edited out,
That's what I said.
>then JQP is not any wiser about how to deal with dog-dog aggression in Pit
>Bulls.
I don't think Cesar was handling it well in the FIRST place. I've seen
other episodes where I think he's spot-on, but when it comes to dog-dog
aggression, that's not been the case. Among other things, HE was the one who
was holding the leash and was unprepared for the Pit's lunge and latching
on.
>> And the "hanging" part *was* shown, right?
>
> I don't know. I got the impression, and I could well be wrong, that Sarah
> was criticizing that the hanging was hinted at but not really shown. *If*
> he hung the dog, but it was edited out and was not referenced, then I'd
> say that it was dishonest and unhelpful.
Exactly. It cut from the Pit lunging and getting a hold on one of Cesar's
dogs, and the dog yelping in fear and pain, to a quick shot of Cesar with
the Pit strung up, then to Cesar rolling the Pit; exactly how he got the
dogs apart, and how long he had the Pit hung, was left unclear.
But the camera position and where Cesar and the dog were located shifted
from shot to shot, and it was fairly obvious, to a close observer, that
there was more time elapsed than the editing made it look like. There was
also a change in the Pit's physical demeanor that made me reasonably sure
he'd hung her after the attack and before the roll.
While IMO a perfectly acceptable technique for getting an aggressive dog
under control, I didn't think what he did was particularly useful as
*training*; but more to the point, as I said, I thought it dishonest to edit
out what was really needed to get the dog under control.
Among other things, it was made to look a lot easier than it really was.
Sionnach
"Shelly" wrote:
> She followed that up with the observation that Cesar had the dog on its
> hind legs, presumably holding it by the collar.
Nope. By the leash, with the leash up above the dog's head; you *can't*
hold a thin nylon choke collar.
>It sounds to me like Sarah is saying that everything between the dog's
>attack and its hanging was edited out.
AND the hanging itself, other than a momentary shot.
> IOW how the two dogs were separated is not addressed.
Yep.
> (That does not mean that a full-blown fight has to be shown, BTW.)
It wasn't a fight. It was an unprovoked attack on a dog that did nothing
but walk too near. To give Cesar credit, although he was careless enough to
let the attack happen in the first place, he reacted quickly enough that the
Pit didn't quite get the serious grip she was going for, although she did
manage to get hold of the other dog.
Shelly
> Among other things, HE was the one who
> was holding the leash and was unprepared for the Pit's lunge and latching
> on.
That sounds like plain old carelessness. If anyone here posted here
that they'd let their Pit Bull attack another dog, they'd get an
earful. And rightfully so.
> While IMO a perfectly acceptable technique for getting an aggressive dog
> under control, I didn't think what he did was particularly useful as
> *training*;
I'm left, again, wondering what was the point of the whole endeavor?
If folks come away from that episode with the idea that hanging
and/or rolling is the way to go about *training* a Pit Bull not to
be dog aggressive, then it does a disservice to the breed.
If the point was to show folks how to break up and/or prevent a Pit
Bull fight, then why edit out key parts of the equation?
> but more to the point, as I said, I thought it dishonest to edit
> out what was really needed to get the dog under control.
> Among other things, it was made to look a lot easier than it really was.
Which goes back to the question of whether or not that clip does a
disservice to Pit Bulls. While I don't think it's a good idea to
overplay the dog-aggression angle, underplaying it isn't the answer,
either. There are enough people out there who think it's all in how
they are raised, who are shocked the first time their precious Pit
Bull attacks another dog.
--
Shelly (Warning: see label for details)
Shelly
> AND the hanging itself, other than a momentary shot.
Which, if it's not explained, would likely be meaningless to JQP.
> It wasn't a fight.
Heh. So Jack hasn't seen this particular episode, either? Interesting!
Do you know what season this particular episode is from? Or the
title? Netflix has the first season available.
Suja
"bet...@nospam.goaway.con" <bet...@aol.com> wrote in message:
> She read Jean Donaldson and took that to mean that she should cook for
> her dog, put him in his own chair wearing a bib and feed him that way.
Oh Wow!
> Now, I haven't read everything Jean Donaldson has written, but if that
> is her way of keeping a tough dog on the straight and narrow I'm gonna
> barf.
I think that I've read sufficient amount of Donaldson's works to say that
whatever she said, she certainly did not mean for the dog to end up being
treated like a baby. In fact, that sounds like the opposite of what she
recommends.
Suja
Handsome Jack Morrison
wrote:
>"Shelly" wrote:
>
>> *If* the dog was hung, but the hanging was edited out,
>
> That's what I said.
If it was edited out, how do you know anything about it???
>>then JQP is not any wiser about how to deal with dog-dog aggression in Pit
>>Bulls.
>
> I don't think Cesar was handling it well in the FIRST place. I've seen
>other episodes where I think he's spot-on, but when it comes to dog-dog
>aggression, that's not been the case. Among other things, HE was the one who
>was holding the leash and was unprepared for the Pit's lunge and latching
>on.
Again, I didn't see this episode, but I've seen other episodes, when
he took a dog-aggressive dog down to his center to be socialized with
the help of his pack of 30-40 dogs.
Yes, fights have usually broke out, which Cesar quickly broke up. It
was always the visiting dog who did the attacking, lunging, etc. It's
part and parcel of his "pack therapy."
Cesar was as "prepared" for the squabbles as a handler could possibly
be, and the dogs were quickly separated.
What else is there to show?
You could stand in a dog park with 30-40 dogs for maybe an hour and
watch similar squabbles break out, and I can assure you that they
won't be broken up as quickly as the ones I've seen on Millan's show.
>>> And the "hanging" part *was* shown, right?
>>
>> I don't know. I got the impression, and I could well be wrong, that Sarah
>> was criticizing that the hanging was hinted at but not really shown. *If*
>> he hung the dog, but it was edited out and was not referenced, then I'd
>> say that it was dishonest and unhelpful.
>
> Exactly. It cut from the Pit lunging and getting a hold on one of Cesar's
>dogs, and the dog yelping in fear and pain, to a quick shot of Cesar with
>the Pit strung up, then to Cesar rolling the Pit; exactly how he got the
>dogs apart, and how long he had the Pit hung, was left unclear.
<sigh>
The squabbles that I've seen, at last three that I can think of,
showed the visiting dog attacking/lunging at one of Cesar's dogs,
usually soon after he entered the compound. That's what dog aggressive
dogs do, right? And Millan would deal with the situation by "hanging"
the aggressor dog by his leash and simply pull them apart. Yes, his
own dog would sometimes yelp, but there was no real fear, and the dog
was quickly back to going about his business as if nothing had
happened. Cesar's dogs are, remember, other Pit Bulls, Rotties, GSDs,
etc. Not exactly frou-frou dogs, right?
> But the camera position and where Cesar and the dog were located shifted
>from shot to shot, and it was fairly obvious, to a close observer, that
>there was more time elapsed than the editing made it look like.
So what? You could say the same thing about any scene.
>There was
>also a change in the Pit's physical demeanor that made me reasonably sure
>he'd hung her after the attack and before the roll.
One should presume that the dog was "hung" until he settled down. On
the episodes I've seen, the aggressor dog settled down pretty quickly.
> While IMO a perfectly acceptable technique for getting an aggressive
dog
>under control, I didn't think what he did was particularly useful as
>*training*;
Nor is it intended to be, for crissakes!
He *rehabilitates* dogs. He trains *owners.*
Big difference.
If you're interested in learning how to *train* dogs, look elsewhere.
>but more to the point, as I said, I thought it dishonest to edit
>out what was really needed to get the dog under control.
IMO, you're just chasing demons. Nit-picking.
> Among other things, it was made to look a lot easier than it really was.
Separating dogs in a squabble is never what I would call "easy," but
it doesn't have to be World War III, either.
IMO, Millan's a damn fine handler. But his job is to *rehabilitate*
dogs, and "shit" happens when you're doing that. In fact, it's
virtually impossible to rehabilitate a dog-aggressive dog without some
"shit" happening.
Try it yourself sometime. There's certainly no shortage of them on
which to try your hand.
And while you're busy doing that, maybe you'll have a lot less time in
which to chase demons and pick nits.
<sigh>
--
Handsome Jack Morrison
Lest we forget:
http://hotair.com/archives/the-blog/2006/07/27/video-kevin-cosgroves-911-call-from-the-world-trade-center/
"If Tehran insists on combining the Persian imperial tradition with contemporary Islamic fervor, then a collision with
America -- and, indeed, with its negotiating partners of the Six -- is unavoidable. Iran simply cannot be permitted to
fulfill a dream of imperial rule in a region of such importance to the rest of the world."
http://www.theadventuresofchester.com/archives/2006/07/kissinger_on_ir.html
Obsession: Radical Islam’s War with the West (a must-see movie, especially for Shelly, who's probably still
trying to figure out who "'these people,' good grief" are. Heck, she's still trying to figure out who the Nazis were):
http://www.obsessionthemovie.com/
If you don't want your own DVD, you can view the movie here:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6162397493278181614&hl=en
It's over an hour long, so make some popcorn, crack open a beer, and take a good, hard look at what's coming.
Or...you can keep your head stuck in the sand. Along with Shelly.
Shelly
> I think that I've read sufficient amount of Donaldson's works to say that
> whatever she said, she certainly did not mean for the dog to end up being
> treated like a baby. In fact, that sounds like the opposite of what she
> recommends.
Yeah, but "hand feeding" could sound like babying, especially if it
was taken out of context or advised by a third party. I know Beth
said the woman read something by Donaldson, but that doesn't mean
she actually *did* read it, or if she did, that she read any of the
books in their entirety. The information could just as easily have
been obtained second-hand, and explained away as something she read
in a book. E.g. consider some of the bizarre things Leah gleaned
from various readings.
Suja
> Owner? Foster parent, right?
Owner. He's had the dog for a few years. She started off as a timid puppy
and since they chose to do nothing about it, has grown into a fearful adult.
And now that she's put her teeth on the human, he thinks he should just get
rid of her.
> Anyway...they need to get the help of a qualified professional. The
> dog needs proper exposure to many, many humans, under many different
> conditions, etc. Again, rehab work ain't easy.
You're preaching to the choir. I've talked with the owner at length about
what I did with Khan, the books I read, the trainer we worked with, etc.
Never did care enough to do anything, and of course the only thing that he
did try to do forced the dog into putting her teeth on him.
> He does tell the owners, quite often in fact, to only praise the dog
> once the dog reaches a "calm, submissive state," etc.
I think that I'm yet to see him praise any dog for anything. To the people
who take his word as the Gospel, what he does matters a hell of a lot more
than what he says.
> Maybe the kind of professional help your friends need most is of the
> psychiatric kind?
I'm telling you, I don't know what is going on here because these are
otherwise intelligent people. I've just about given up on talking
behavior/training because all I'm hearing is 'But that's not what Cesar
does'. I've tried talking about the basics of behavior theory, hoping that
they'd see there is more than one way to skin that cat, but apparently the
right way is the one that ends up on TV where the trainer miraculously cures
the dog of all that is wrong, in the span of about 20 minutes.
Besides, what do I know? I'm the one who should apparently be sleeping with
one eye open because my dogs are plotting a coup and will be taking over the
world shortly.
Suja
Handsome Jack Morrison
wrote:
>"Shelly" wrote:
>> She followed that up with the observation that Cesar had the dog on its
>> hind legs, presumably holding it by the collar.
>
> Nope. By the leash, with the leash up above the dog's head; you *can't*
>hold a thin nylon choke collar.
Yeah, that's exactly what I've seen on other episodes.
It's just a short length of blue polypro rope with one end looped back
through its tag end (probably a bowline knot).
>>It sounds to me like Sarah is saying that everything between the dog's
>>attack and its hanging was edited out.
>
> AND the hanging itself, other than a momentary shot.
Maybe "momentary" was all there was???
>> IOW how the two dogs were separated is not addressed.
>
> Yep.
You didn't see him "hang" the aggressor by his leash?
You didn't see him pull them apart?
>> (That does not mean that a full-blown fight has to be shown, BTW.)
>
> It wasn't a fight. It was an unprovoked attack on a dog that did nothing
>but walk too near.
But that's what unsocialized, dog-aggressive dogs do!
What's interesting to me, is how you've managed not to mention a
single word about the *results.* Again, I didn't see this particular
episode, but in the similar episodes that I have seen, the viewer gets
to see how the aggressor dog is progressing during his 2-4 week stay
at the center. How he eventually learns to mingle with all the other
dogs non-aggressively, etc. But you'd rather focus on nits, right?
>To give Cesar credit, although he was careless enough to
>let the attack happen in the first place,
That's not being careless, that's part of what he does.
He rehabilitates dogs!
You can't do that without "shit" happening at times.
Again, try it sometime yourself. See if "shit" doesn't happen to you,
too, no matter how care you take.
>he reacted quickly enough that the
>Pit didn't quite get the serious grip she was going for, although she did
>manage to get hold of the other dog.
BFD.
The same thing happens every day down at the ol' dog park, and I bet
it doesn't get dealt with as quickly as I've seen Millan deal with it.
Handsome Jack Morrison
wrote:
>"Handsome Jack Morrison" <handsomeja...@gmail.com> wrote in message:
>
>> Owner? Foster parent, right?
>
>Owner. He's had the dog for a few years. She started off as a timid puppy
>and since they chose to do nothing about it, has grown into a fearful adult.
>And now that she's put her teeth on the human, he thinks he should just get
>rid of her.
Then I've got pretty much everything mixed up here.
I thought "she" was either a shelter or Foster dog.
>> Anyway...they need to get the help of a qualified professional. The
>> dog needs proper exposure to many, many humans, under many different
>> conditions, etc. Again, rehab work ain't easy.
>
>You're preaching to the choir. I've talked with the owner at length about
>what I did with Khan, the books I read, the trainer we worked with, etc.
>Never did care enough to do anything, and of course the only thing that he
>did try to do forced the dog into putting her teeth on him.
Maybe you could write Cesar and ask him to send them a letter? :)
>> He does tell the owners, quite often in fact, to only praise the dog
>> once the dog reaches a "calm, submissive state," etc.
>
>I think that I'm yet to see him praise any dog for anything.
I have. But then again, he rehabilitates dogs. He trains owners.
And most of the dogs on the shows I've seen had been praised far too
often, and for all the wrong things.
Which was why they were spoiled and aggressive dogs in the first
place.
>To the people
>who take his word as the Gospel, what he does matters a hell of a lot more
>than what he says.
That's not fair to Millan or to any other trainer.
>> Maybe the kind of professional help your friends need most is of the
>> psychiatric kind?
>
>I'm telling you, I don't know what is going on here because these are
>otherwise intelligent people. I've just about given up on talking
>behavior/training because all I'm hearing is 'But that's not what Cesar
>does'. I've tried talking about the basics of behavior theory, hoping that
>they'd see there is more than one way to skin that cat, but apparently the
>right way is the one that ends up on TV where the trainer miraculously cures
>the dog of all that is wrong, in the span of about 20 minutes.
Well, if there's no there there, there's no there there.
>Besides, what do I know? I'm the one who should apparently be sleeping with
>one eye open because my dogs are plotting a coup and will be taking over the
>world shortly.
--
Handsome Jack Morrison
Lest we forget:
http://hotair.com/archives/the-blog/2006/07/27/video-kevin-cosgroves-911-call-from-the-world-trade-center/
"If Tehran insists on combining the Persian imperial tradition with contemporary Islamic fervor, then a collision with
America -- and, indeed, with its negotiating partners of the Six -- is unavoidable. Iran simply cannot be permitted to
fulfill a dream of imperial rule in a region of such importance to the rest of the world."
http://www.theadventuresofchester.com/archives/2006/07/kissinger_on_ir.html
Obsession: Radical Islam’s War with the West (a must-see movie, especially for Shelly, who's probably still
trying to figure out who "'these people,' good grief" are. Heck, she's still trying to figure out who the Nazis were):
http://www.obsessionthemovie.com/
If you don't want your own DVD, you can view the movie here:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6162397493278181614&hl=en
It's over an hour long, so make some popcorn, crack open a beer, and take a good, hard look at what's coming.
Or...you can keep your head stuck in the sand. Along with Shelly.
Handsome Jack Morrison
wrote:
>Sionnach wrote:
>
>> Among other things, HE was the one who
>> was holding the leash and was unprepared for the Pit's lunge and latching
>> on.
>
>That sounds like plain old carelessness. If anyone here posted here
>that they'd let their Pit Bull attack another dog, they'd get an
>earful. And rightfully so.
You're so full of shit.
He didn't "let" the dog attack one of his dogs. It just did.
It's what poorly socialized, dog-aggressive dogs *do.*
It's why he had the aggressor dog there to begin with. To have him
learn how to get along with other "calm" dogs without attacking, etc.
"Shit" happens when you're dealing with 30-40 dogs.
There's "shit" happening as we speak down at your local dog park, too.
And at everyone else's dog park, too.
Unfortunately, there's no TV camera running when it happens down
there.
>> While IMO a perfectly acceptable technique for getting an aggressive dog
>> under control, I didn't think what he did was particularly useful as
>> *training*;
>
>I'm left, again, wondering what was the point of the whole endeavor?
WATCH THE FUCKING SHOW!
>If folks come away from that episode with the idea that hanging
>and/or rolling is the way to go about *training* a Pit Bull not to
>be dog aggressive, then it does a disservice to the breed.
>If the point was to show folks how to break up and/or prevent a Pit
>Bull fight, then why edit out key parts of the equation?
There was no point. "Shit" happened. Millan dealt with it. Period.
>> but more to the point, as I said, I thought it dishonest to edit
>> out what was really needed to get the dog under control.
>> Among other things, it was made to look a lot easier than it really was.
>
>Which goes back to the question of whether or not that clip does a
>disservice to Pit Bulls. While I don't think it's a good idea to
>overplay the dog-aggression angle, underplaying it isn't the answer,
>either. There are enough people out there who think it's all in how
>they are raised, who are shocked the first time their precious Pit
>Bull attacks another dog.
This thread reminds me of the blind person holding on to the tail of
an elephant.
"Hey there, dude." "What have you got there."
"A snake, bro." "Feels like a snake."
<sigh>
Judith Althouse
I think it is sooooo wrong for you to bash Cesar Millan when you have
never even seen the man's TV show, read his book, seen his DVD and then
you go on to criticize the people who like him like myself. I have read
his book and I watch his show just as I would and have any other dog
trainer that happened to be current and yes I might support their
methods as I do his. As I said, I do not think he is the one and only
dog trainer of merit in the land, but I think he helps more than harms.
I know you are not interested but he came here from Mexico, worked for 2
dog groomers and now he is the Dog Whisperer. He must be doing
something right. Right or Wrong I believe he is dedicated. I don't
know why you REFUSE to watch or read him but you are absolutely
passionate about hating him and people that like him. Why? Please tell
me why you are so vicious towards him? Do you really think you are
saving the world and the dog population from him? I think anyone here
should be able to discuss anything dog related, but apparently not
having a clue does not stop you. Don't worry, someone else will get on
the band wagon and they will be as good or better than he. Geeze I
can't wait, maybe you will have a dish by then or a library card? I
really didn't intend to get down in the dirt with you on this one but
after reading this thread....I just couldn't stop. You are an expert
and you have never even seen him....Incredible? I know this sounds
foolish but I almost guarantee you would learn something if you did, you
probably would even like him but I am sure I would be the last to know.
Like Cesar says it is usually the people that are the problem....AMEN in
this case..
Be Free,
Judy
Handsome Jack Morrison
wrote:
>Sionnach wrote:
>
>> AND the hanging itself, other than a momentary shot.
>
>Which, if it's not explained, would likely be meaningless to JQP.
If "JQP" was as clueless as you and Sarah apparently are, TV
manufacturers and cable companies would have to develop some kind of
Doofus Controls, to go along with their Parental Controls, so that
someone could prevent you from even watching programs that were over
your heads, so to speak.
>> It wasn't a fight.
>Heh. So Jack hasn't seen this particular episode, either? Interesting!
I only said that I had NOT seen it, what? 5-6 times?
How many more times should I have said it before it eventually sunk
in?
As long as "JQP" is comprised of folks like you and Sarah, no amount
of explanations, repetitions, etc. will ever suffice.
>Do you know what season this particular episode is from? Or the
>title? Netflix has the first season available.
I think it's probably a new episode, but that shouldn't stop you from
renting the DVDs anyay.
Maybe it'll help you find your first fucking clue?
Nah.
TaraG
> On Wed, 2 Aug 2006 09:58:18 -0400, "Suja" <span...@scs.gmu.edu>
> wrote:
>>To the people
>>who take his word as the Gospel, what he does matters a hell of a lot more
>>than what he says.
>
> That's not fair to Millan or to any other trainer.
How so? Please explain this line of thought.
Tara
Melinda Shore
Judith Althouse <judyal...@webtv.net> wrote:
> I think it is sooooo wrong for you to bash Cesar Millan when you have
>never even seen the man's TV show, read his book, seen his DVD and then
>you go on to criticize the people who like him like myself.
Out of curiosity, what other trainers have you read?
Suja
"Handsome Jack Morrison" <handsomeja...@gmail.com> wrote in message:
> Then I've got pretty much everything mixed up here.
>
> I thought "she" was either a shelter or Foster dog.
The wires got crossed when I said that they were considering dumping her,
and described how she would have a poor shot at making it out alive.
> Maybe you could write Cesar and ask him to send them a letter? :)
That may work. Or he could come out and explicitly talk about the utility
of doing all that. Maybe give people pointers on who to talk to get
trainer/behaviorist recommendations.
> And most of the dogs on the shows I've seen had been praised far too
> often, and for all the wrong things.
Mostly, what I've seen have been owners who coddle and make excuses. Can't
say I've seen anyone actually praise bad behavior.
> That's not fair to Millan or to any other trainer.
But why? He should practice what he preaches, no? Besides, it *is* a TV
show, so they should be able to edit it to maintain consistancy.
Suja
Handsome Jack Morrison
wrote:
In the example that Beth gave, pertaining to the woman who read
Culture Class, and who took Donaldson's book to mean that
"she should cook for her dog, put him in his own chair wearing a bib
and feed him that way."
Do you think it's fair to blame Donaldson for that?
If so, perhaps to avoid stupid people from ever being able to read a
book, watch a TV show, etc., they should first have to pass some kind
of IQ test, along with a reading comprehension exam?
In a nutshell, that's my "line of thought"
And if you still don't understand what "my line of thought" is, you're
probably one of those folks who needs to be tested.
Shelly
> Shelly,
> I think it is sooooo wrong for you to bash Cesar Millan when you have
> never even seen the man's TV show, read his book, seen his DVD and then
If you would try reading for comprehension, you'd see that I haven't
bashed Cesar Millan. Why on earth would I do that?
> you go on to criticize the people who like him like myself.
No. I've been critical of the habit some folks have of elevating
particular trainers to near deity status.
> and now he is the Dog Whisperer.
And another thing. Enough with the whispering already. Good grief!
> He must be doing something right.
He knows how to market himself, at the very least.
> Right or Wrong I believe he is dedicated.
Dedication is meaningless in this context. The same might be said
of Jerry Howe. You do realize that one can be dedicated to pure
nonsense or to harm-doing?
> I don't know why you REFUSE to watch or read him
Because I really do not enjoy watching "reality based" dog shows.
They make my stomach hurt.
> but you are absolutely
> passionate about hating him and people that like him. Why? Please tell
> me why you are so vicious towards him?
*boggle* I have repeated multiple times that I have no opinion on
him one way or the other. How on earth *could* I have one?
> I think anyone here
> should be able to discuss anything dog related, but apparently not
> having a clue does not stop you.
I'd appreciate it if you would address my acts of cluelessness
directly. Unless, of course, your goal is excrement disturbing.
> Don't worry, someone else will get on
> the band wagon and they will be as good or better than he. Geeze I
> can't wait, maybe you will have a dish by then or a library card?
Or not. Either way, I still am unlikely to watch him.
> You are an expert
> and you have never even seen him....Incredible?
I am not, nor have I ever claimed to be, an expert (presumably in
dog training and/or behavior?). Have you not read one of Diddy's
umpty posts on the topic of my unworthiness?
> I know this sounds
> foolish but I almost guarantee you would learn something if you did, you
> probably would even like him but I am sure I would be the last to know.
> Like Cesar says it is usually the people that are the problem....AMEN in
> this case..
Which dog behavior problems, exactly, do you think watching St.
Cesar might help me with?
If I had come here asking for help in dealing with my dog's
behavior, that might make sense. I have not. In fact, I'm not sure
I have *ever* asked for behavior advice here. If I have, it was a
long, long time ago.
Shelly
> Because the fact that he has a large following of people threatens her as
> an "expert"?
Again, where have I claimed to be an "expert"? You keep saying
that, as if it were important. What I find interesting is that you
never seem to get around to correcting any of the advice I've
posted, or disagreeing with any of the actual *behavioral* points
I've addressed.
> If she "were" an "expert" now THAT would be incredible!
> She's a pet dog owner with a very casually trained and behaved dog.
> She does not train dogs for a living. Her interests in training dogs seems
> to be a power struggle in cyber authority, by discrediting people who
> actually "DO" train dogs.
>
> Discrediting is her major skill.. NOT training dogs.
Like I said...
Handsome Jack Morrison
wrote:
>"Handsome Jack Morrison" <handsomeja...@gmail.com> wrote in message:
>
>> Then I've got pretty much everything mixed up here.
>>
>> I thought "she" was either a shelter or Foster dog.
>
>The wires got crossed when I said that they were considering dumping her,
>and described how she would have a poor shot at making it out alive.
Yup, probably. But as you've probably noticed, I currently have a
couple of ill-tempered terriers gnawing on my ankles.
It's a little hard to focus right now.
>> Maybe you could write Cesar and ask him to send them a letter? :)
>
>That may work. Or he could come out and explicitly talk about the utility
>of doing all that. Maybe give people pointers on who to talk to get
>trainer/behaviorist recommendations.
You can reach him here:
comm...@CesarMillanInc.com
Dog Psychology Center of Los Angeles
919 East 61st Street
Los Angeles, CA 90001
Tel: (323) 235-3431
Fax: (323) 235-0328
Can't hurt.
>> And most of the dogs on the shows I've seen had been praised far too
>> often, and for all the wrong things.
>
>Mostly, what I've seen have been owners who coddle and make excuses. Can't
>say I've seen anyone actually praise bad behavior.
Then we haven't been watching the same shows.
I've watched in horror, more than a few owners coo-cooing their dogs
while they were in full "Red Zone" mode.
>> That's not fair to Millan or to any other trainer.
>
>But why? He should practice what he preaches, no? Besides, it *is* a TV
>show, so they should be able to edit it to maintain consistancy.
See my reply to Tara.
IMO, it's not fair to hold someone responsible for a few doofus's
warped interpretations of what's actually going on, being said, being
written, etc.
Millan is a "Dog Whisperer."
He's not William Safire.
Or Stephen Spielberg.
Yes, a few screwballs will misinterpret him.
But the vast majority of folks watching will learn some important
stuff.
Handsome Jack Morrison
wrote:
>If you would try reading for comprehension
Ding! Ding! Ding!
IRONY-O-METER
0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11
+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
^
Mary Healey
> Millan is a "Dog Whisperer."
Which is what, exactly?
Handsome Jack Morrison
Althouse) wrote:
>Shelly,
> I think it is sooooo wrong for you to bash Cesar Millan
Judy...Judy...Judy.
Shelly's not really bashing Millan.
She's just being her normal, quarrelsome, ankle-biting, nit-picking
self.
It's what she does.
Pit Bulls fight. Labrador retrievers retrieve. Collies herd. And
Shelly picks nits, quarrels, and generally gnaws on ankles.
She currently holds the unified Ankle Biting World Championship. Her
tag team partner, Malicious Melinda Shore, is currently ranked Number
Two in the world, but only because she has a better full time job.
.
> As I said, I do not think he is the one and only
>dog trainer of merit in the land, but I think he helps more than harms.
That came through loud and clear to me, Judy (and probably to most of
the regulars). But just as some dogs require more repetitions than
others before they "get it," so do Shelly and Melinda.
>I don't
>know why you REFUSE to watch or read him but you are absolutely
>passionate about hating him and people that like him. Why?
Again, she doesn't hate Millan. She's just doing her thing. It's
what she does. She's an ankle-biter. I have scars on my ankles that
took months to heal, thanks to her. So my advice to you is to buy a
good pair of snake-proof boots. They even have a Lady's version.
Works for me.
Handsome Jack Morrison
I have no freakin' idea.
Maybe the polar opposite of a "Dog Listener"?
I'm just happy with being an ol' dog trainer.
Works for me.
Judith Althouse
Oh no honey, no way did I mean it to come out like that, no way do I
consider you an expert, nor do you represent yourself as one in dog
training/behavior. I was referring to Cesar again....how are you on
expert on his faults when you have never even seen the damn show.
I am quite sure you have complete control of your dogs and the ones
you dog sit. I meant you may learn something of interest about dogs and
their relationship to man. Surely, you can't know everything there is
to know? Don't you have a desire to learn? Don't you just have a
general interest in dogs? Since you have never seen the show you may
not know that it is not all him shouting commands and choking dogs and
editing.
I saw an episode where he was clipping a dog's toe nails and got
bitten twice and scratched in the nose (drew blood) in 3 seconds. Now,
that is one I would edit out.
When I said we should all be able to discuss dogs and dog behavior I
meant it. I also was speaking to you when I said it was unfair to
negatively critique something you know nothing about. Ask questions,
sure? Comment, yes!!!! Go crazy on people that like him and the man
himself. I don't think this is right. It would be like me telling you
how to Pet Sit,
I am sorry you don't like Dog Whisperer. I am really sure you don't
like "My Way" his book title...What would work for you? Like it or not
the man has got it going on....making the big bucks....I think you have
Cesar envy...
Be Free,
Judy
Handsome Jack Morrison
Althouse) wrote:
>I am really sure you don't
>like "My Way" his book title...What would work for you? Like it or not
>the man has got it going on....making the big bucks....I think you have
>Cesar envy...
Judith.
Silly comments like the above only make matters worse.
The best thing you can do to actually help Millan is to stop talking
about him. You're just making it easier for the Ankle Biter Brigade to
gnaw on your ankles.
But hey, they are *your* ankles, so..
Anyway, that's my opinion, and I'm sticking to it.
Suja
"Handsome Jack Morrison" <handsomeja...@gmail.com> wrote in message:
> You can reach him here:
>
> comm...@CesarMillanInc.com
I think that I'll do just that. It might have more validity coming out of
his mouth than mine.
> I've watched in horror, more than a few owners coo-cooing their dogs
> while they were in full "Red Zone" mode.
That's coddling, not praising (although the dog may not be able to tell the
difference, both being reinforcers and all). Plenty of people petting,
'Poor Baby'-ing and otherwise fussing over the dog, especially at the wrong
time, but not actually saying anything to the effect of 'Good dog, you're
doing what I want you to do', in proper context or not.
> IMO, it's not fair to hold someone responsible for a few doofus's
> warped interpretations of what's actually going on, being said, being
> written, etc.
If it were a few idjits, I wouldn't care. But it isn't.
What I've mostly gotten out of his show is about CM and his dog handling
skills and a basic reinforcement of my belief that some people shouldn't
have a gold fish, much less a dog. Much of what he does with the dogs, I'm
not comfortable doing; I don't have the need or the necessary handling
skills, and have found alternate means to accomplish much the same thing
with less stress on both myself and the dog. My personal opinion based on
watching the show and talking to other people who do, is that while people
may learn about the necessity of exercise, leadership and structure in a
dog's life, most people wouldn't learn much about how to go about
establishing leadership and structure, or how to train/troubleshoot their
dog's problems.
Suja
TaraG
"diddy" <di...@nospam.diddy.net> wrote in message
news:Xns98136B7...@216.196.97.142...
> Discrediting is her major skill..
And how is that any different from what you've been doing in your last few
posts on the topic?
Tara
TaraG
> On Wed, 02 Aug 2006 14:36:51 GMT, "TaraG" <tarag...@verizon.net>
> wrote:
>
>
>>"Handsome Jack Morrison" <handsomeja...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>news:f7c1d2lq350ld2c2s...@4ax.com...
>>> On Wed, 2 Aug 2006 09:58:18 -0400, "Suja" <span...@scs.gmu.edu>
>>> wrote:
>>>>To the people
>>>>who take his word as the Gospel, what he does matters a hell of a lot
>>>>more
>>>>than what he says.
>>>
>>> That's not fair to Millan or to any other trainer.
>>
>>How so? Please explain this line of thought.
>
> In the example that Beth gave, pertaining to the woman who read
> Culture Class, and who took Donaldson's book to mean that
> "she should cook for her dog, put him in his own chair wearing a bib
> and feed him that way."
>
> Do you think it's fair to blame Donaldson for that?
That has nothing to do with what you said and what you responded to.
You responded to the statement (cut and paste time) "To the people who take
his word as Gospel, what he does matters a hell of a lot more than what he
says"
And frankly, as a trainer I think that's totally true. What we DO is way
more important than what we SAY, don't you think?
And yet your response was that this was "not fair to Millan or to any other
trainer".
I don't think being held accountable for what we DO (especially when and if
it doesn't mesh with what we SAY) is particularly unfair at all. n fact, I
think its the foundation of training. Teaching the owners is all about
translating what we DO into words they can assimilate and understand. If
what we say doesn't match what we DO, then its not really consistant.
> If so, perhaps to avoid stupid people from ever being able to read a
> book, watch a TV show, etc., they should first have to pass some kind
> of IQ test, along with a reading comprehension exam?
Speaking of reading comprehension....
> In a nutshell, that's my "line of thought"
>
> And if you still don't understand what "my line of thought" is, you're
> probably one of those folks who needs to be tested.
Right. You say something weird, I ask for confirmation, you reply with
something completely unrelated and I'm the one who needs to be "tested"
Ok "jack"
Tara
Shelly
> And how is that any different from what you've been doing in your last few
> posts on the topic?
FWIW there's not anything for Diddy to discredit, which makes the
whole thing even more kibological. OTOH I haven't discredited
Millan, onna counta I'm in no position to do so. It is for to
laugh! My entry point was explaining my personal interpretation of
Sarah's original post. The actions I understood her to be
describing are ones that I think do the Pit Bull breed no favors.
Now, Diddy and Jack and Judith and anyone else who cares to disagree
are obviously welcome to do so, but to accuse me of discrediting
Millan, or of bashing him, or of acting viciously toward him (WTF?),
is ridiculous. I have done none of those things.
Handsome Jack Morrison
wrote:
>"Handsome Jack Morrison" <handsomeja...@gmail.com> wrote in message:
>
>> You can reach him here:
>>
>> comm...@CesarMillanInc.com
>
>I think that I'll do just that. It might have more validity coming out of
>his mouth than mine.
Good. I'll be waiting patiently for updates.
>> I've watched in horror, more than a few owners coo-cooing their dogs
>> while they were in full "Red Zone" mode.
>
>That's coddling, not praising (although the dog may not be able to tell the
>difference, both being reinforcers and all). Plenty of people petting,
>'Poor Baby'-ing and otherwise fussing over the dog, especially at the wrong
>time, but not actually saying anything to the effect of 'Good dog, you're
>doing what I want you to do', in proper context or not.
It all amounts to R+, Suja. And at precisely the wrong time.
A lot of PPers like to brag that by using only R+, at least a dog
owner won't get into any trouble. Well, Millan's show, if nothing
else, clearly illustrates how ludicrous that claim is.
>> IMO, it's not fair to hold someone responsible for a few doofus's
>> warped interpretations of what's actually going on, being said, being
>> written, etc.
>
>If it were a few idjits, I wouldn't care. But it isn't.
Again, you need to start hanging out with smarter folks. :)
>What I've mostly gotten out of his show is about CM and his dog handling
>skills and a basic reinforcement of my belief that some people shouldn't
>have a gold fish, much less a dog.
Well, I can't argue with you there. I've been saying the same thing
for years, and years, and years, and...
>Much of what he does with the dogs, I'm
>not comfortable doing; I don't have the need or the necessary handling
>skills, and have found alternate means to accomplish much the same thing
>with less stress on both myself and the dog.
Hey, that's certainly your prerogative, Suja.
But if you ever get really involved in rehabilitating so-called
"problem" dogs, and you only get a short time in which to rehabilitate
them, you'll soon discover that a little stress isn't necessarily a
bad thing.
Some amount of stress is good for a dog. Life presents many stressful
situations to dogs, to humans, etc. The sooner a dog learns how to
properly deal with stress, the better, IMO. I think many parents make
the same mistakes with their children, too.
There's a really good article in Psychology Today that illustrates my
point.
http://www.psychologytoday.com/articles/pto-20041112-000010.html
I.e., our kids are too coddled.
So are our dogs.
>My personal opinion based on
>watching the show and talking to other people who do, is that while people
>may learn about the necessity of exercise, leadership and structure in a
>dog's life, most people wouldn't learn much about how to go about
>establishing leadership and structure, or how to train/troubleshoot their
>dog's problems.
No one book, no one show, etc., could ever be enough to teach *every*
dog owner what he or she needed to do to raise a happy, contented,
well-mannered pooch.
But it's a start.
Judith Althouse
I can't afford the boots, so I guess I will have to chill, but part of
that was a sincere question I don't understand why Shelly takes such an
issue with the term Whisperer?
Mary
You asked Jack about the same term, forgive me for butting in to your
conversation and this does not make it so I think it was just a catchy
title to draw a crowd to his TV show or perhaps he is comparing himself
to The Horse Whisperer the man who talks to horses. Forgive me for
sharing my opinion to a question you addressed to Jack, it is just my
opinion.
Be Free,
Judy
TaraG
"Judith Althouse" <judyal...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:23353-44...@storefull-3257.bay.webtv.net...
> Handsome Jack
> I can't afford the boots, so I guess I will have to chill, but part of
> that was a sincere question I don't understand why Shelly takes such an
> issue with the term Whisperer?
There is a real implication in the use of the word....an implication that I
really don't think applies here.
> Mary
> You asked Jack about the same term, forgive me for butting in to your
> conversation and this does not make it so I think it was just a catchy
> title to draw a crowd to his TV show or perhaps he is comparing himself
> to The Horse Whisperer the man who talks to horses.
Right. Any idea what methods the Horse Whisperer employs? He brought into
the mainstream methods that *removed* the need for any physical corrections
or direct physical punishment. Sopmeone who uses those things almost
exclusively and then calls himself a "whsperer" is misleading people, IMO.
Agree with his methods or not, its a misnomer.
> Forgive me for
> sharing my opinion to a question you addressed to Jack, it is just my
> opinion.
Obviously unnecessary and disingenuous apologies are gross. Why bother?
Tara
Handsome Jack Morrison
wrote:
[]
>>>>>To the people
>>>>>who take his word as the Gospel, what he does matters a hell of a lot
>>>>>more
>>>>>than what he says.
>>>>
>>>> That's not fair to Millan or to any other trainer.
>>>
>>>How so? Please explain this line of thought.
>>
>> In the example that Beth gave, pertaining to the woman who read
>> Culture Class, and who took Donaldson's book to mean that
>> "she should cook for her dog, put him in his own chair wearing a bib
>> and feed him that way."
>>
>> Do you think it's fair to blame Donaldson for that?
>
>That has nothing to do with what you said and what you responded to.
Yes, it was.
>You responded to the statement (cut and paste time) "To the people who take
>his word as Gospel, what he does matters a hell of a lot more than what he
>says"
>And frankly, as a trainer I think that's totally true. What we DO is way
>more important than what we SAY, don't you think?
Not necessarily. If a doofus is unable to understand what we're
saying, what's to prevent him from misunderstanding what we're doing?
The point was (the one that went right over your head), that doofuses
are doofusses. And there's no way to predict, or to allow for, what a
doofus might do, say, etc.
>And yet your response was that this was "not fair to Millan or to any other
>trainer".
That's because it's not fair to blame Millan for doofuses. Blame the
parents of doofuses. Blame their teachers.
>I don't think being held accountable for what we DO (especially when and if
>it doesn't mesh with what we SAY) is particularly unfair at all.
It's no less unfair for a trainer to be held responsible for
misinterpretations of what he's doing, than what he's saying, or
writing.
The fault lies with the doofus.
>Teaching the owners is all about
>translating what we DO into words they can assimilate and understand. If
>what we say doesn't match what we DO, then its not really consistant.
I don't see much conflict with what Millan does and what he says.
Some folks somehow can't come to grips with what the show is about --
he rehabilitates dogs. He trains owners. The only owner who really
needs to "learn" anything from Millan's visit is the owner he's
visiting. And *they* seem to be learning quite a bit.
We, the viewers, vicariously get to look over his shoulder while (at
least some of) this is going on, but the show isn't intended to TRAIN
the *viewer* in anything.
Of course, reasonably intelligent people will be able to learn quite a
bit from the show, just by looking over his shoulder.
>> If so, perhaps to avoid stupid people from ever being able to read a
>> book, watch a TV show, etc., they should first have to pass some kind
>> of IQ test, along with a reading comprehension exam?
>
>Speaking of reading comprehension....
My reading comprehension was just fine, Tara.
Like Millan, I can't really help it if people can't understand what
I'm saying.
I reiterated basically the same thing I had said before.
>> In a nutshell, that's my "line of thought"
>>
>> And if you still don't understand what "my line of thought" is, you're
>> probably one of those folks who needs to be tested.
>
>Right. You say something weird,
I bet it wasn't "weird" to the vast majority of readers.
>I ask for confirmation, you reply with
>something completely unrelated and I'm the one who needs to be "tested"
It was essentially the same explanation that I gave you before.
>Ok "jack"
>
>Tara
'kay, "Tara."
Shelly
> I was referring to Cesar again....how are you on
> expert on his faults when you have never even seen the damn show.
I'm not an expert on his faults. I never claimed to be.
My entry point into the discussion was explaining my personal
interpretation of Sarah's original post. The actions (or lack
thereof) I understood her to be describing are ones that I think do
the Pit Bull breed no favors. You are welcome to disagree with me,
or to disagree with my interpretation of Sarah's post. However,
accusing me of bashing or going crazy on or viciously attacking
Millan is just plain ridiculous.
> I am quite sure you have complete control of your dogs and the ones
> you dog sit. I meant you may learn something of interest about dogs and
> their relationship to man.
I can't imagine that what I might learn by watching someone who
calls himself a "whisperer" would be worth the ulcer it would give
me. Kind of like I'm pretty sure that I don't need to eat gooey
chocolate cheesecake to know it'll make me sick.
> Surely, you can't know everything there is to know?
I'm not that arrogant. However, there are better places for me to
get my information.
> Don't you have a desire to learn? Don't you just have a
> general interest in dogs? Since you have never seen the show you may
> not know that it is not all him shouting commands and choking dogs and
> editing.
Lordy, but you make some weird assumptions!
> When I said we should all be able to discuss dogs and dog behavior I
> meant it. I also was speaking to you when I said it was unfair to
> negatively critique something you know nothing about.
I wasn't negatively critiquing something I know nothing about. I'm
not that sort of dumbass. I was commenting on information given by
someone else, within the context of something that I *do* know a
little bit about.
> Ask questions,
> sure? Comment, yes!!!! Go crazy on people that like him and the man
> himself. I don't think this is right. It would be like me telling you
> how to Pet Sit,
I haven't "gone crazy" on anyone. You are reading *way* too much
into what I've written.
> I am sorry you don't like Dog Whisperer. I am really sure you don't
> like "My Way" his book title...What would work for you? Like it or not
> the man has got it going on....making the big bucks....I think you have
> Cesar envy...
I don't measure the value of something by how much money it brings
in or how popular it is.
Shelly
> but part of
> that was a sincere question I don't understand why Shelly takes such an
> issue with the term Whisperer?
I don't. I have nothing at all against him, aside from his use of
the word "Whisperer." I think it's a dumbassed way to describe
oneself, and it's manipulative.
> Mary
> You asked Jack about the same term, forgive me for butting in to your
> conversation and this does not make it so I think it was just a catchy
> title to draw a crowd to his TV show or perhaps he is comparing himself
> to The Horse Whisperer the man who talks to horses.
IANM, but IMO that's part of the problem. It's a slick marketing
gimmick. And, there is a certain type of person who gets hooked by
that sort of thing. I find pandering to them to be distasteful,
whether you call yourself the Dog Whisperer, the Horse Whisperer, or
the Scuzzlebutt Whisperer. The choice of that descriptive term says
a whole lot about you, like it or not.
Handsome Jack Morrison
Althouse) wrote:
>Handsome Jack
> I can't afford the boots, so I guess I will have to chill, but part of
>that was a sincere question I don't understand why Shelly takes such an
>issue with the term Whisperer?
I tried to explain it to you in a recent post, Judy, but you're just
not getting it, are you?
I'll repeat it one more time, just for you.
It's what Shelly does.
She's an ankle-biter. Your ankle was in the general vicinity.
So she gnawed on it.
IT'S WHAT SHE DOES!
> Mary
By the way, it's considered bad form to reply to multiple posters
inside of one post.
I know you only have Web TV to work with, but...
Handsome Jack Morrison
wrote:
>I'm not that arrogant.
Ding! Ding! Ding!
IRONY-O-METER
0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11
+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+---+
^
--
Suja
"Handsome Jack Morrison" <handsomeja...@gmail.com> wrote in message:
> Good. I'll be waiting patiently for updates.
I'll let you know if I get anything more than a form letter back.
> It all amounts to R+, Suja. And at precisely the wrong time.
I agree, and have said as much. But what I'm saying is that there does not
appear to be any place for praise for appropriate behaviors
> A lot of PPers like to brag that by using only R+, at least a dog
> owner won't get into any trouble.
That depends entirely on the timing of the R+, doesn't it? That pretty much
applies to P+, P-, etc. too.
> But if you ever get really involved in rehabilitating so-called
> "problem" dogs, and you only get a short time in which to rehabilitate
> them, you'll soon discover that a little stress isn't necessarily a
> bad thing.
These aren't dogs in shelters who'd get put down, and mostly aren't dogs
that are on the verge of being sent to the shelter. I don't think that time
is a factor in many of these cases.
> Some amount of stress is good for a dog. Life presents many stressful
> situations to dogs, to humans, etc. The sooner a dog learns how to
> properly deal with stress, the better, IMO.
I agree that dogs should be able to handle some degree of stress. However,
I disagree with the amount of stress he puts on some of the dogs on his
show. I am not sure that scaring the crap out of an already timid dog is at
all productive (which I think happened to the Vizsla who was phobic about
cameras in the show we discussed earlier).
Suja
Mary Healey
news:23353-44...@storefull-3257.bay.webtv.net:
> You asked Jack about the same term, forgive me for butting in to
> your
> conversation and this does not make it so I think it was just a catchy
> title to draw a crowd to his TV show or perhaps he is comparing
> himself to The Horse Whisperer the man who talks to horses.
Ah. Jack said "Millan is a 'Dog Whisperer.'" and I thought he might
know what that is. He said he doesn't. Do you know what it is?
As far as a comparison to any of the razzle-dazzle horse handlers
currently on display around the country, well, that's not the most
flattering thing. Some of them do good work, almost all of them are
skilled and gifted handlers, but far too many claim to sell what cannot
be bought and substitute special equipment, games, and all sorts of
"exclusive" shenanigans for time spent learning to handle horses.
IME, these self-promoting opportunists are more about suckering the
gullible than promoting actual education. Often, they do have real
ability, but that's just the bait on the hook.
If that makes me cynical, so be it. When I go to a dog-handling or
horse-handling presentation, I go to learn -- not to buy trinkets or
gadgets or be told "buy the DVD" when all that does is show someone
else's skill without sufficient information to duplicate their efforts.
Melinda Shore
Diddy's lousy at it.
--
Melinda Shore - Software longa, hardware brevis - sh...@panix.com
Bad policies lead to bad results.
Shelly
> Diddy's lousy at it.
It *does* make me wonder what she thinks that word means.
Handsome Jack Morrison
wrote:
>"Judith Althouse" <judyal...@webtv.net> wrote in message
>news:23353-44...@storefull-3257.bay.webtv.net...
>> Handsome Jack
>> I can't afford the boots, so I guess I will have to chill, but part of
>> that was a sincere question I don't understand why Shelly takes such an
>> issue with the term Whisperer?
>
>There is a real implication in the use of the word....an implication that I
>really don't think applies here.
Only to doofuses!
>> Mary
>> You asked Jack about the same term, forgive me for butting in to your
>> conversation and this does not make it so I think it was just a catchy
>> title to draw a crowd to his TV show or perhaps he is comparing himself
>> to The Horse Whisperer the man who talks to horses.
>
>Right. Any idea what methods the Horse Whisperer employs? He brought into
>the mainstream methods that *removed* the need for any physical corrections
>or direct physical punishment.
Actually, what the term probably should connote is a LIAR and a FAKIR,
just like the "Horse Whisperer" was, Monty Roberts.
http://citizensforjustice.org/monty/truth_wrap.html
"The BBC documentary video, 'Monty Roberts, A Real Horse Whisperer'
was seriously compromised in the making. Shy Boy was hobbled on all
four legs, roped and choked, all out of the camera's view. Roberts may
have fooled the BBC crew, but the Wranglers that were working for him,
know the truth."
Or you can read the book, "Horse Whispers & Lies," too.
>Sopmeone who uses those things almost
>exclusively and then calls himself a "whsperer" is misleading people, IMO.
>Agree with his methods or not, its a misnomer.
Okay, now you guys have simply went over the fucking cliff.
Like it's some sort of crime to call yourself a "Whisperer"!
To someone of reasonable intelligence, and one without an axe to
grind, the term "whisperer" would probably connote no more than an
uncanny ability to relate to, work with, etc. an animal.
I knew there must be more to this crap.
Look, if no one had trademarked the term, it's Millan's to use.
Yes, it's a marketing gimmick. BFD.
What's wrong with marketing gimmicks?
Do you think that anyone (in his right mind) believes that Millan (or
any other "whisperers" out there) actually *whispers* shit in the ears
of dogs, too?
<sigh>
Melinda Shore
Shelly <she...@cat-sidh.net> wrote:
>I can't imagine that what I might learn by watching someone who
>calls himself a "whisperer" would be worth the ulcer it would give
>me.
I figure crap like that is stupid marketing nonsense from
the producers, and I tend to ignore it. Like Tara, I think
what you do counts more than what you say. I'm sort of
neutral on Millan, myself (I'm not sufficiently familiar
with him to make a specific critique; I think it's good that
he's showing people that dogs don't have to misbehave; I
think when "*I'm* the boss"-focused training goes wrong it
can go very, very wrong [as pfoley so neatly demonstrated]).
I think his followers are a bunch of freaks, though. As
nearly as I can tell they don't know anything else about dog
training other than what they've learned from Cesar and they
don't want to know anything else. It's ignorant and pretty
much indistinguishable from Jerryites.
Handsome Jack Morrison
wrote:
>"Handsome Jack Morrison" <handsomeja...@gmail.com> wrote in message:
>
>> Good. I'll be waiting patiently for updates.
>
>I'll let you know if I get anything more than a form letter back.
>
>> It all amounts to R+, Suja. And at precisely the wrong time.
>
>I agree, and have said as much. But what I'm saying is that there does not
>appear to be any place for praise for appropriate behaviors
The "appropriate behavior" is when the dog reaches "a calm, submissive
state." Which is when the praise should be given.
>> A lot of PPers like to brag that by using only R+, at least a dog
>> owner won't get into any trouble.
>
>That depends entirely on the timing of the R+, doesn't it?
Of course, but they never make that distinction!
Just lots of good ol' positive, positive, positive reinforcement - cuz
they're such kindly folks.
<sigh>
Kindly, but stupid. And the dog ends up paying the price for it.
>That pretty much applies to P+, P-, etc. too.
Absolutely! Timing is everything in training.
But poor timing plus R+ = lots of shitty, even aggressive, strongly
reinforced behaviors.
They like to gloss over that part.
[...]
>> Some amount of stress is good for a dog. Life presents many stressful
>> situations to dogs, to humans, etc. The sooner a dog learns how to
>> properly deal with stress, the better, IMO.
>
>I agree that dogs should be able to handle some degree of stress. However,
>I disagree with the amount of stress he puts on some of the dogs on his
>show.
I haven't seen anything that would lead me to agree with you.
>I am not sure that scaring the crap out of an already timid dog is at
>all productive (which I think happened to the Vizsla who was phobic about
>cameras in the show we discussed earlier).
But she got over it, didn't she?
And the owners were tickled pink with the results.
She became a "normal" dog.
I think that qualifies as a success story.
Mary Healey
> Actually, what the term probably should connote is a LIAR and a FAKIR,
One of the reasons I asked, actually.
> Like it's some sort of crime to call yourself a "Whisperer"!
Not a crime, but a disservice to someone if they aren't trying to draw a
comparison to Monty and his deceptive schtick.
> To someone of reasonable intelligence, and one without an axe to
> grind, the term "whisperer" would probably connote no more than an
> uncanny ability to relate to, work with, etc. an animal.
Comparisons to a liar and a, er, "fakir" indicate, to someone of reasonable
intelligence, that the "whisperer" person might be selling sizzle instead
of steak.
Someone of reasonable intelligence, with previous exposure to St. Monty and
his ilk, is likely to have some suspicion of even the most talented handler
who allows himself to be so labelled.
Why appropriate a sullied term?
Shelly
> I figure crap like that is stupid marketing nonsense from
> the producers, and I tend to ignore it. Like Tara, I think
> what you do counts more than what you say.
It does, for sure, but the bottom line for me is that he is willing
to exploit that particular marketing gimmick. That's a deal breaker.
> think when "*I'm* the boss"-focused training goes wrong it
> can go very, very wrong [as pfoley so neatly demonstrated]).
Yes, but his WWCD schtick was pure comedy gold.
> I think his followers are a bunch of freaks, though.
I won't argue with that. Eeep!
> As
> nearly as I can tell they don't know anything else about dog
> training other than what they've learned from Cesar and they
> don't want to know anything else. It's ignorant and pretty
> much indistinguishable from Jerryites.
Yep. It's the stuff cults are made of.