fur protects from heat myth
Julia Altshuler
the heat as much as it does from the cold" myth. I did my best to dispel it,
but I'd like a little help from the experts should anyone question me. Where do
people get these ideas? This person was saying that a densly coated dog like a
Husky suffers no more than a Dalmatian in the summer. I suggested daily
brushing, a trim and being wetted down if there's excessive panting.
--Lia
BethF
"Julia Altshuler" <jalts...@attbi.com> wrote in message
news:3D378003...@attbi.com...
NO trim for either of my breeds. i assume huskies too.
TO...@dog-play.com
A thermos bottle keeps its contents either hot or cold depending upon how
it started. Remove the insulation and see what happens.
http://www.canismajor.com/dog/collie.html
http://www.adoptapet.com/adoptapet/health.html
http://beardie.net/hobo/advice/advice.htm
The undercoat can be thinned to allow for more air exchange but the coat
protects the dog against direct heat gain. The sun must first heat the
air which is a poor conductor. The skin is a better heat conductor,
easier for the sun to heat when its rays fall on it. The best situation is
a light colored coat, long enough to block the sun from reaching the skin,
but thin enough to allow some air circulation. Since dogs don't sweat
this is a fairly insignificant source of heat loss, but not useless.
Evaporating moisture can take the place of sweating and provide cooling.
In summer the animal should shed most of the undercoat, leaving the longer
outter coat. It should be less dense, but not necessarily shorter.
What evidence do you have that the coat does not insulate against the
heat?
Diane Blackman
JoFromOz
spread herself out as wide as she can go and lay on the lino where it is
cooler. I think it has a lot to do with colour and coat type, rather than
length.
Jo
"Julia Altshuler" <jalts...@attbi.com> wrote in message
news:3D378003...@attbi.com...
Amy Dahl
if the water is directly evaporated from the skin surface, but not when
it evaporates from the hair coat. Since the skin is in contact with the
wet hair, and only the hair is in contact with the ambient air, the
bulk of evaporation from a wet dog is off the hair. At the same time,
the insulating quality of the coat is compromised by being wet.
Wetting can lead to nasty mats and hot spots in some heavy coated
breeds. You can sponge a dog's face and paws with alcohol/water
mixture if the coat there is very short. If evaporative cooling
over the whole body was effective for dogs, though, they'd
probably have the ability to sweat.
Amy Dahl
JoFromOz
"Amy Dahl" <a...@oakhillkennel.com> wrote in message
news:3D37CABA...@oakhillkennel.com...
> Julia Altshuler wrote:
> If evaporative cooling
> over the whole body was effective for dogs, though, they'd
> probably have the ability to sweat.
>
> Amy Dahl
True. That is why dogs pant. That is their evaporative cooling system.
Jo
Nessa
(in message <3D378003...@attbi.com>):
Bagel suffers much more than Hannah does in this weather. Up until recently
he hated the hose. Last night (it being very hot for a *change* here in
Baltimore) after swimming for a while, we were getting ready to go, the sun
was already down but it was not totally dark yet, Bagel stood still and
actually enjoyed the cool hose water.
I brush him with an undercoat rake everyday (well almost everyday) and ALWAYS
carry water with me. However Bagel is funny about water. He likes it either
fresh from the tap or with ice in it. (is he spoiled or what?)
I worry about him in the heat it's CLEAR he hates it.
Nessa
--
I don't have issues
I have subscriptions
www.nessa.info
Melissa S. Frye
news:3D37CABA...@oakhillkennel.com...
> I think wetting a dog down is questionable. Evaporation cools the body
> if the water is directly evaporated from the skin surface, but not when
> it evaporates from the hair coat. Since the skin is in contact with the
> wet hair, and only the hair is in contact with the ambient air, the
> bulk of evaporation from a wet dog is off the hair. At the same time,
> the insulating quality of the coat is compromised by being wet.
>
> Wetting can lead to nasty mats and hot spots in some heavy coated
> breeds. You can sponge a dog's face and paws with alcohol/water
> mixture if the coat there is very short. If evaporative cooling
> over the whole body was effective for dogs, though, they'd
> probably have the ability to sweat.
>
> Amy Dahl
Wetting down is effective if you wet the belly and inner thighs (major
vessels run down the thighs - good place to take a pulse or place ice packs
on an overheated dog). Wetting just the outside of the fur is not.
Having access to water they can lay in is also cooling (assuming the water
is cooler than the surrounding air temp) - I have wading pools that the dogs
get in, and spaniel field events and every herding thing I have been to has
water troughs for the dogs to lay in.
--
Melissa S. Frye
sighthounds etc.
wrote:
That is correct. Siberian Huskies should not be trimmed. I don't
know that the idea that a dog's coat protects it from excessive heat
as well as excessive cold has been factually disproven. Two of my
Siberians, for instance, lie in the sun until they're well-done, when
they come inside to cool off in the AC. The third spends most of his
time in his cooling hole/den, but it's very difficult to lure him
indoors, even in very hot temperatures. Where do people get these
ideas that double-coated dogs should be trimmed or shaved?
Sally Hennessey
Patch
"Melissa S. Frye" <mf...@surfree.com> wrote in message
news:ah8pqn$pag$1...@slb6.atl.mindspring.net...
Forwarded as its relevent regarding pools and general prevention of
overheating in dogs ;
----BEGIN QUOTE----------
Heat stroke and overheating in dogs: treatment & prevention.
An article by Nate Baxter, DVM
The introductory comment is by the person who reposted the article to
Canine-L.
Dearest Canine-L'er's:
I am taking the opportunity here to re-post (with permission, and
permission is granted to re-post again as long as the originals are not
edited and credit is given) a critical reminder about our dogs and their
risk for heat stroke.
I was ... fortunate? ... that in the beginning of the first summer I had
[my dog] I was at the vet's at a routine visit . . . a woman rushed in
completely hysterical . . . her dog was incapacitated in the back seat
of her car, heat-stricken..........they couldnt' save her, and I will
never forget this big doggie's death-wracked gasps and gurgles and pants
as she struggled to live while they were attempting to cool her down.
Sorry to be so explicit but it's a deadly serious issue for our kids.
She didn't make it :-(
The vet told me at the time to never push [my doberman] to even *walk*
his regular route if he were reluctant, to wet him down, to respect any
sign of exertion and give lots of rest, shade & fluids. Anyway, enough
of me.....
This is posted with the permission of the author Nate Baxter, DVM and is
a guideline and overview for dogs that overheat. While it was written
for working retrievers the information applies to any dog exerting
itself in warm or very humid conditions.
-----BEGIN ARTICLE--------
Guideline and overview for dogs that overheat.
The first thing that needs to be understood is that dogs and people are
different enough that most of the info cannot cross lines. I do not
profess to know what the appropriate procedures for people other than
what I learned in first aid.
Electrolyte replacement: Dogs do not lose enough electrolytes thru
exercise to make a difference, but if the dog gets truly into heat
stroke the physiology changes will make them necessary. BUT oral
replacement at that point is futile, they need IV and lots of it.
Cooling: The point of evaporative cooling being the most efficient is
correct. However, in a muggy environment, that will not help as much, so
I do cool with the coldest water I can find and will use ice depending
on the situation. The best way is to run water over the dog, so there is
always fresh water in contact. When you immerse a dog in a tub, the
water trapped in the hair coat will get warm next to the dog, and act as
an insulator against the cool water and cooling stops. If you can run
water over the dog and place it in front of a fan that is the best.
Misting the dog with water will only help if you are in a dry
environment or in front of a fan.
Just getting the dog wet in not the point, you want the water to be cool
itself, or to evaporate.
For MOST situation all you will need to do is get the dog in a cooler
environment, i.e. shade, or in the cab of the truck with the air
conditioning on (driving around so the truck does not overheat and the
AC is more efficient).
This past summer I was very concerned about my dogs getting too hot in
the back of my black pickup with a black cap. Boy I wish I got another
color 6 years ago<G>.
When I had one dog I just pulled the wire crate out of the car and put
it in some shade and hopefully a breeze. But having 2 dogs and running
from one stake to another, that was not feasible. So I built a platform
to put the wire crates on, this raises the dog up in the truck box where
air flow better. Then I placed a 3 speed box fan in front blowing on the
dogs with a foot of space to allow better airflow.
I purchased a power inverter that connects to the battery and allows the
3 speed fan to run from the truck power. It has an automatic feature
that prevents it from draining the battery. When I turned that fan on
medium I would find that the dogs where asleep, breathing slowly and
appeared very relaxed and comfortable in a matter of 20 minutes or less,
even on very hot muggy days.
Alcohol: {Rubbing Alcohol] I did not carry it but probably will next
year. It is very effective at cooling due to the rapid evaporation. It
should be used when other methods are not working, but do not hesitate
to use it. Due to the thicker skin and rapid evaporation I do not worry
about it being absorbed. Plus we recommend using rubbing alcohol, which
is propylene alcohol, not ethyl, for those of you not aware. So do not
try to drink it<VBG>.
I purchased those cooling pads, but found that the dogs would not lay on
them. I would hold them on the back of a dog that just worked to get a
quick cool, but probably will not mess with them next summer. I also
bought a pair of battery operated fans but found them pretty useless.
Spend your money on the power inverter and get a real fan.
Watching temp: If you feel your dog is in danger of heat injury, check
its temp and write it down. Keep checking the temp every 3 minutes.
Don't forget to shake it down completely each time, sounds silly, but
when are worried about your companion, things tend to get mixed up.
This is VERY IMPORTANT:
Once the temp STARTS to drop, STOP ALL COOLING EFFORTS. The cooling
process will continue even though you have stopped. If the temp starts
at 106.5, and then next time it drops to 105.8, stop cooling the dog,
dry it off, and continue monitoring. You will be amazed how it continues
to go down. If you do not stop until the temp is 102, the temp will drop
on down to 99 or even lower. I cannot emphasis that point enough.
Limit water: When the dog is so heated that it is panting severely, only
let it have a few laps of water. Water in the stomach does not cool the
dog, you just need to keep the mouth wet so the panting is more
effective. Do not worry about hydration until the temp has started down.
A dog panting heavily taking in large amounts of water is a risk of
bloat. Due to the heavy panting they will swallow air mix in a large
amount of water they can bloat. Once the temp is going down and panting
has slowed to more normal panting then allow water. The dog will
rehydrate it self after temp is normal.
If the dog has a serious problem and even though you have gotten the
temp normal, get the dog to a vet, as it can still need IV fluids and
some medication. Also, a case of heat stroke can induce a case of
hemorrhagic gastroenteritis (not parvo), with a ton of very bloody
diarrhea and a lot of fluid and electrolyte loss. These cases need
aggressive treatment.
Prevention: The best method of treatment is prevention. Learn to watch
your dog, and see the changes in the size of the tongue, and how quickly
it goes down. Learn your dogs response to the different environments,
and be careful when you head south for an early season hunt test or
trial. I have been to Nashville at the end of May the last 2 years, only
5 hours away, but the difference in temp and humidity did effect the
dogs as they were used to more spring weather in Ohio. Try different
things in training to help the dog cool and learn what works better.
Another very important point:
Do not swim your hot dog to cool it then put in put in a box/tight
crate. Remember, evaporation can not take place in a tight space, and
the
box will turn into a sauna. Carry a stake out chain, and let the dog
cool and dry before putting it up.
Whew!! Did not think this would get so long. I hope this is easy to
understand and helps provide some info that will be useful.
Remember: Prevention, learn your dog. It is worth the time and effort.
Nate Baxter, DVM
Northstar Labradors
Lebanon, OH
North Star's Lady Raven, MH, WCX
----------END-------------
HTH
Patch
>
>
>
Amy Dahl
>
> Forwarded as its relevent regarding pools and general prevention of
> overheating in dogs ;
>
> ----BEGIN QUOTE----------
> Heat stroke and overheating in dogs: treatment & prevention.
>
> An article by Nate Baxter, DVM
>
highlights
> Electrolyte replacement: Dogs do not lose enough electrolytes thru
> exercise to make a difference, but if the dog gets truly into heat
> stroke the physiology changes will make them necessary. BUT oral
> replacement at that point is futile, they need IV and lots of it.
SQ fluids can be used, too, and if you exercise your dog hard
far from veterinary assistance, as in hunting or training hunting
dogs, it is well worth it to learn to administer them and keep a
kit with you.
>
> The best way is to run water over the dog, so there is
> always fresh water in contact. When you immerse a dog in a tub, the
> water trapped in the hair coat will get warm next to the dog, and act as
> an insulator against the cool water and cooling stops. If you can run
> water over the dog and place it in front of a fan that is the best.
IOW the water has to be (1) cool and (2) in contact with the skin.
>
> Just getting the dog wet in not the point, you want the water to be cool
> itself, or to evaporate.
>
> Another very important point:
> Do not swim your hot dog to cool it then put in put in a box/tight
> crate. Remember, evaporation can not take place in a tight space, and
> the
> box will turn into a sauna. Carry a stake out chain, and let the dog
> cool and dry before putting it up.
>
Also swimming is hard exercise and will generate a lot of heat.
Unless the water is quite cool, the net effect of the swimming
will be to heat the dog up. Shallow ponds with the sun on them
are not a good bet, especially in late summer.
Studies from the Sports MEdicine center at Auburn indicate that
the temperature of a working Lab routinely rises to 106 in the
course of about ten minutes' work. The dog then needs to cool
off as sustained high temperature can be dangerous.
Amy Dahl
Shannon Larkin
Hmm. I know an Australian Kelpie with a very dense black coat. Heat,
even the last heat wave, does not phase her in the least. She just
drinks more water. Guinness, on the other hand, with a black longer
less dense silky coat, suffers GREATLY in the heat. I tend to think the
the Kelpie's fur was developed to protect her from the heat in the
outback, but hey, what do I know?
-Shannon
The Puppy Wizard
"Amy Dahl" <a...@oakhillkennel.com> wrote in message
news:3D380CBD...@oakhillkennel.com...
BethF
> Wetting can lead to nasty mats and hot spots in some heavy coated
> breeds. You can sponge a dog's face and paws with alcohol/water
> mixture if the coat there is very short. If evaporative cooling
> over the whole body was effective for dogs, though, they'd
> probably have the ability to sweat.
The agreement on the sam list is to wet and cool the feet and belly with a
sponge dipped in ice water.
Julia Altshuler
misconceptions. I don't have hard evidence, I was going on an article I read
long ago (in print and I don't remember from where) saying that too often people
believe that a dense fur coat will protect a dog from overheating and not take
proper steps to protect their dogs.
--Lia
Melissa S. Frye
> Patch wrote:
> >
> > Forwarded as its relevent regarding pools and general prevention of
> > overheating in dogs ;
> >
> > ----BEGIN QUOTE----------
> > Heat stroke and overheating in dogs: treatment & prevention.
> >
> > An article by Nate Baxter, DVM
> >
> Great article mostly snipped except for a few important
> highlights
>
> > Electrolyte replacement: Dogs do not lose enough electrolytes thru
> > exercise to make a difference, but if the dog gets truly into heat
> > stroke the physiology changes will make them necessary. BUT oral
> > replacement at that point is futile, they need IV and lots of it.
>
> SQ fluids can be used, too, and if you exercise your dog hard
> far from veterinary assistance, as in hunting or training hunting
> dogs, it is well worth it to learn to administer them and keep a
> kit with you.
> >
be. Iv are much more efficent at rehydrating badly dehydrated dogs. One of
the big problems with heat stroke is the damage done after the fact - often
the dog appears to rocover only to relapse later.
Our procedure at the emergancy clinic for heat stroked dogs is place them on
a grate over a trough, run cool water over them, place icepacks on the inner
thighs and groin area. Temperature is carefully monitered doing this to
ensure is dosen't go too low.
> IOW the water has to be (1) cool and (2) in contact with the skin.
Yep.
>
> Also swimming is hard exercise and will generate a lot of heat.
> Unless the water is quite cool, the net effect of the swimming
> will be to heat the dog up. Shallow ponds with the sun on them
> are not a good bet, especially in late summer.
hence the popularity of troughs - they are deep and don't heat up as easily
as wasing pools (which are fine if cool water has just been added)
Leah
>Where do people get these
>ideas that double-coated dogs should be trimmed or shaved?
I used to shave my rough collie in the summer. He looked like a brown and
white cow. So every summer, his nick-name became "Cow Dog." :}
My eskie had, of course, white, light-weight fur and pink skin. I would never
have shaved him - I figured that he'd be more affected by the heat and sun if I
did.
But my collie's thick, heavy, dense coat would weigh him down. After I shaved
him, there'd be a marked difference in his behavior. He became more frisky and
care-free. Even inside in the a/c, he seemed a lot more comfortable.
So where did I get the idea? From him. :}
See My Furry Family At:
http://www.angelfire.com/fl5/dogs0
Madigan's Theme:
"When she was good, she was very, very good
But when she was bad, she was HORRID"
diddy
This is hotly debated, but my guess those people argueing this have
never actually shaved down their dog to find out for sure. A shaved
dog DOES need to be kept inside. I have had two friends with Elkhounds
heat stroke dogs in kennels who were fully coated, so obviously thoose
dogs coats did not adequately protect them.
I have had a working SAR dog heat stroke while on a mission 2 days in a
row (It was 100 degrees and 90% humidity), both times, he was carried by
the mission support vet and bathed in water, who then recommended he be
shaved before continueing the search. The following day, he resumed the
search under the same conditions that he had heat stroked the previous
two days, only sans coat. He was able to successfully complete the
search and had no further problems (re: heatstroke)
I had an elderly Elkhound who got a Spring shear every spring. It was
the only time he ever played (post shave.. until his hair started
growing back)
Shaved Elkhounds are really ugly. I really can't stand to do it, unless
I deem it necessary.
You must leAve enough hair to prevent sunburn. The dogs lose their
insect protection. Shaved dogs MUST be housed inside.
Ron Hardin
don't sweat told a cashier that I supposed it was drool replacement.
The cashier just stared dumbly at me when I mentioned it though,
going right to the position that women take usually only after they've
known you a while.
--
Ron Hardin
rhha...@mindspring.com
On the internet, nobody knows you're a jerk.
BethF
"diddy" <di...@nospam.diddy.net> wrote in message
news:3D383C68...@nospam.diddy.net...
> Julia Altshuler wrote:
> >
> > On another usenet group, I've run into the "a heavy fur coat protects a
dog from
> > the heat as much as it does from the cold" myth. I did my best to
dispel it,
> > but I'd like a little help from the experts should anyone question me.
Where do
> > people get these ideas? This person was saying that a densly coated dog
like a
> > Husky suffers no more than a Dalmatian in the summer. I suggested daily
> > brushing, a trim and being wetted down if there's excessive panting.
> >
> > --Lia
>
> This is hotly debated, but my guess those people argueing this have
> never actually shaved down their dog to find out for sure. A shaved
> dog DOES need to be kept inside. I have had two friends with Elkhounds
> heat stroke dogs in kennels who were fully coated, so obviously thoose
> dogs coats did not adequately protect them.
Its interesting Diddy,
the sammy people are entirely ANTI shaving.
But the keesie people lean towards a lion cut being ok in warm weather.
diddy
> > This is hotly debated, but my guess those people argueing this have
> > never actually shaved down their dog to find out for sure. A shaved
> > dog DOES need to be kept inside. I have had two friends with Elkhounds
> > heat stroke dogs in kennels who were fully coated, so obviously thoose
> > dogs coats did not adequately protect them.
>
> Its interesting Diddy,
> the sammy people are entirely ANTI shaving.
> But the keesie people lean towards a lion cut being ok in warm weather.
Elkie People are avidly anti-shaving people also.... Except those who
have had heat-stroked elkies.
I can't say I'm a fan of the look myself. But I have had first hand
experience, and if I felt my dog was stressing to the point their health
was in danger, My coats would be gone in an instant and a tear.
I have seen shaving positively make a difference in my dogs attitudes.
My vet accounted for shaving allowing my dog to continue working, under
conditions where he was unable to work before was because in 100 degree
temperatures and high humidity, his panting innefficiently was not
providing adequate cooling. His body core temperature rose, and his core
temperature became higher than the ambient temperature, and the heat was
trapped in the insualating coat, cooking from the inside.
I guess in Danny's instance, it was a case of an arduously hard working
dog in high heat/humidity conditions. Shaving was necessary. More
likely, had he not been a working dog, shaving would not have been
neccesary. I think activity levels of the dog, and usage of the dog
should probably be taken in consideration before making the decision to
shave, or not. I would NOT shave a dog left outside. But then, my dogs
live inside with me, so it's not an issue.
The Puppy Wizard
diddy (di...@nospam.diddy.net)
Subject: Oh My God
Newsgroups: View this article only
Date: 2002-01-16 13:39:59 PST
Two nights ago, Reka started acting frantic about 11pm.
I let her out. It's coyote breeding season, and she is fascinated
by them. I assumed she wanted to go out and listen to them
howling. I brought her in, and she spent the night franticly and
desperately demanding to go out.
After about 4am, I finally put her in the barn, locked
securely in a horse stall for the night.
She came in by morning, and had a normal active, playful
day. Last night, at 11pm, She franticly DEMANDED to go
out. I let her out, and brought her in. At midnight, she
DEMANDED to be let out. I let her out, but I went out
to the barn and got a crate, and decided she could
spend the rest of the night in the crate. We were NOT
going to do a repeat of the previous night AGAIN.
At 3am, she whined so loudly, I then decided not to
allow her to set a precedence of this type of behavior.
So I took her crate out to the heated gun shop and
decided to let her act out her bad behavior in peace,
and send a message that her obnoxious behavior
was not going to be tolerated.
This morning at 6am, I went out, and she had vomited
(normal looking dog food) and defecated in her crate
(not normal for Reka, but then, She normally didn't
sleep in a crate, NEVER gets corrected (she never does
anything to GET corrected for) and was probably nerves
from the outside experience, plus reprimand and solitary
confinement.)
I let her in the house while I cleaned the cage. Hoping
I had made my point. She acted healthy and normal, and
playful and chipper. But then I noticed a spot of blood on
the bathroom linoleum and in the bathtub. I was the last to
take a bath, so I knew REKA was the last in the tub.
That blood didnt come from me, so it HAD to come from
Reka. Thinking about her nearing the end of her heat cycle,
I still didnt think a lot about it. I thought her obnoxious
behavior the past couple nights WAS her heat cycle..
and corresponding coyote breeding season.
Then while feeding her breakfast, I saw the whole story.
She had blood (fresh) streaming from her RECTUM. UhOh.
I had her at the vets office this morning before he
opened. He just said her intestines were all bunched
up with huge air pockets.
Was there any chance that she ate strings of carpets? I
said, last Thursday we took a plastic tarp out of the yard
that we had over the grill to protect it from the weather
because she was chewing it. That would explain
EVERYTHING.
The strings are binding and bunching up her intestines,
cutting her internally and tying her intestines in knots as
it works its way through.
Reka is in a very critical situation. She is going to
require extensive and expensive surgery that I cant
afford. I will manage.
Even with the surgery, her condition will be critical
for awhile. Scary thoughts. I would never have
treated her the way I did last night, if I had even a
clue that she was sick. I feel so badly.
--
diddy
"diddy" <di...@nospam.diddy.net> wrote in message
news:3C55943B...@nospam.diddy.net...
> > > > > Why is everything Jerry howe on this site?
> > Who's he? I can't see any posts by anyone of that name. Tell us about
> > your dogs, please, Jennifer, Stan and Tara.
> > Alikat
> With strategic killfiling, I also don't see others rebuttals either
Yeah. Like you missed my information on breaking dogs of CHEWING
and besides, you was too busy jerking and choking and scolding your dog.
> It got quiet once I learned effective killfiling.
Didn't it though??? Seein as most every thread is about Jerry Howe
and why you should KILLFILE the INFORMATION you bums
need and don't have cause if you admit to using my methods, your
pals will be EMBARRASSED after they've been tellin everybody
my methods don't work and I'm a liar and con man.
That's O.K., diddler. I PLANNED it like that... I'm a dog trainer.
> I haven't seen a JH post since last august..
INDEED, but HE sees yours, diddler.
> and thought he ceased to exist,
Like your dog came close to not existing anyMOORE after
chewin up some stuff and got HURT on it.
Cost you THOUSANDS at the vet??? At least $1500.00, eh diddler?
> until you mentioned that it's apparently a problem for you
Seems Jerry's a bit of a problem for ALL of our dog lovers...who like
to jerk and choke and shock and spray aversives in their dog's faces,
diddler.
Have a little whine to wash down the strings of carpet your dog swallowed
cause you used it to cover something else he was chewing...
> A Salute to Casey, and sent with sympathies.
Save it diddler, you need it for yourself.
You could have avoided the entire incident had you
TRAINED your dog using my methods not to chew
stuff. But you'd rather force, intimidate and barricade
instead of handle and train your dog like a respectable
dog handler and decent human being. Adios... Thug.
Jerry.
"diddy" <di...@nospam.diddy.net> wrote in message
news:3D3844AE...@nospam.diddy.net...
6chgo19
Rocky
>> Also swimming is hard exercise and will generate a lot of
>> heat. Unless the water is quite cool, the net effect of
>> the swimming will be to heat the dog up. Shallow ponds
>> with the sun on them are not a good bet, especially in
>> late summer.
>
> hence the popularity of troughs - they are deep and don't
> heat up as easily as wasing pools (which are fine if cool
> water has just been added)
This is what I want for my dogs:
http://www.rubbermaid.com/hpd/consumer/index.jhtml
Enter "stock tank" into the search box.
--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
Jenn
> Julia Altshuler wrote:
> >
> > On another usenet group, I've run into the "a heavy fur coat protects a
dog from
> > the heat as much as it does from the cold" myth. I did my best to
dispel it,
> > but I'd like a little help from the experts should anyone question me.
Where do
> > people get these ideas? This person was saying that a densly coated dog
like a
> > Husky suffers no more than a Dalmatian in the summer. I suggested daily
> > brushing, a trim and being wetted down if there's excessive panting.
> >
> I think wetting a dog down is questionable. Evaporation cools the body
> if the water is directly evaporated from the skin surface, but not when
> it evaporates from the hair coat. Since the skin is in contact with the
> wet hair, and only the hair is in contact with the ambient air, the
> bulk of evaporation from a wet dog is off the hair. At the same time,
> the insulating quality of the coat is compromised by being wet.
My GSD is long-haired. It has been amasingly hot here as well, and I've been
"hosing" her down at least twice a day. As the hair dries, I've noticed, the
hair itself feels cooler, so even if the water is not evaporating from her
skin surface, The cooler hair seems to make a difference. She is obviously
more comfortable after a hosing. And hours later, when she's still damp, she
feels cool to the touch and still pants less heavily.
>
> Wetting can lead to nasty mats
One should always remember to brush the dog out prior to a wetting
and hot spots in some heavy coated
> breeds.
Really?
You can sponge a dog's face and paws with alcohol/water
> mixture if the coat there is very short. If evaporative cooling
> over the whole body was effective for dogs, though, they'd
> probably have the ability to sweat.
Keeping their paws and bellies wet still helps though, at least for their
paws and bellies.
--
Jenn S
I'd rather be a forest than a street - Paul Simon
diddy
> >
> > Wetting can lead to nasty mats
>
> One should always remember to brush the dog out prior to a wetting
>
> and hot spots in some heavy coated
> > breeds.
>
> Really?
>
faster. If they dont dry within a reasonable period of time, expect
hotspots
Shelly
"sighthounds etc." <greypi...@ncweb.com> wrote in message
news:1i0gjuodtabummbe3...@4ax.com...
> Where do people get these
> ideas that double-coated dogs should be trimmed or shaved?
>
the two dogs I have.
Coda is young and active, in good weight (lean), with medium length,
single layer coat. The only bit of undercoat is on his trousers, chest &
rump/tail area. Very little. Pinkish skin & hair is quite thin on his
belly.
Guiness is a double-coated, dark GSD (more black than tan).
Old, not-so active, but used to be and in good weight also.
Both have no respiratory or heart defects, but she tolerates heat MUCH
better
than him, even while resting. I would think it the other way, because of
her age, her coloring & her thick (not plush, but there's a ton of it,
despite it
being all over my house!) coat. (And, FWIW, my old Sheltie, average
coated
for a Sheltie, also tolerated heat much better than Coda does, even when
she was older than dirt!)
Hmmm....
I personally don't like to see dogs totally shaved down, it makes me think
of ones
at the clinic that have had surgery or an accident! It makes me wonder
why
would someone want a gorgeous, heavy coated dog just to shave it! I realise
there are circumstances for everything, but there are also "excuses" for
many things as well.
I can see the belly shaves, to help them keep cool, but I'd be afraid of
them
getting sunburned if their whole body was shaved!
Shelly (Who *always* ends up burning her head where her hair parts every
year!), Coda (The Hot Dog) & Guiness (One Cool Chick)...
Shelly
then you read a post like diddy's about Danny that makes you
wonder even more! :-) But, then not a lot of people work their
dogs like she does Danny, nor are a good amount of dogs
as intense as I've read him described.
HATE the look. But, if the dog actually ACTS relieved afterward,
then, great!
Shelly (Who mainly had in mind the lazy SOBs that bring their
dogs in for a shave because they're too damn lazy to groom the
poor thing, or have never trained it to tolerate a good grooming!),
Coda (Who seems to love the new grooming table I bought--or
is it the branschwager??) & Guiness (Brushing is okay, as long as
I can lie down so I don't fall over!)...
"diddy" <di...@nospam.diddy.net> wrote in message
news:3D3844AE...@nospam.diddy.net...
Jenn
>
> > and hot spots in some heavy coated
> > > breeds.
> >
> > Really?
> >
> Yeps! Brushing them out before and after wettibng also helps dry them
> faster. If they dont dry within a reasonable period of time, expect
> hotspots
Thanks for that, diddy. I did not know, though it does make sense.
Susan Fraser
heat the air which is a poor conductor. The skin is a better heat conductor,
easier for the sun to heat when its rays fall on it. The best situation is a
light colored coat, long enough to block the sun from reaching the skin, but
thin enough to allow some air circulation.
THANK you, Diane. This is a "pet" peeve (or would that be a "field" peeve?) of
mine, having field trial Golden Retrievers ... Yanno, the breed of retriever
with the beautiful "light colored coat, long enough to block the sun from
reaching the skin, but thin enough to allow some air circulation."
SO IF YOU ARE PLANNING TO SHAVE A GOLDEN, THEN JUST BUY A YELLOW FREAKIN' LAB
INSTEAD!!!!! (Sorry to shout - just had to get it outta my system :->)
My goldens blow their undercoat when it warms up, and so their summer coat is
mostly light guard hairs. They can outlast ANY lab (even yellows) in direct
sun. (And I aver that they shed MUCH less, too!)
Where they have more liklyhood of overheating is exerting themselves in still,
calm, humid air, like running through high grass wet with dew. The air
temperature can actually be *much* cooler than it will be later in the day
when the sun has burned off the dew, but I watch my dogs like a hawk while
there is still dew on the ground.
As to the evaporative cooling - I train regularly in Upper Double 90's (that's
temperature AND humidity). Wetting a dog down doesn't help. Even if the water
is cool when you start, a couple of minutes sitting on a hot dog it's not cool
any longer. It may take hours for a dog wet to the skin to dry (and if you
don't wet to the skin, you're not helping either).
Besides, carrying ice water out in the field is not always easy - especially if
a bird boy notices a dog overheating a few hundred yards out. What works best
and is most portable for me is a squirt bottle filled with alcohol. I have one
that twists closed (although it will still leak if not upright in a hot car)
and if you set it on a fine mist, it evaporates even in the most humid
conditions. Like all the suggestions here, the best places seem to be belly,
inner thighs, underarms, ear flaps (careful of the eyes!), and feet. (Dogs do
sweat a bit from the feet, and so are equiped to take advantage of evaporative
cooling from the feet, too.)
To further augment the evaporation of the alcohol, I also have clip-on fans
that plug into the cigarette lighter from the Wal-Mart automotive section, best
$10 I ever spent! And a portable power pack - although I have to admit, I've
used the fan on a power pack clamped to *my* chair more than I've carried it
afield to a dog in distress - at our recent seafood festival on the Fourth of
July, I was offered $10 for 5 minutes in that chair!
The vet Patch quoted is also a retriever trainer from around here, and he
shares this advice often on the Hunting-Retriever list. (Coincidentally, this
is the list where I learned of the bu!!&i+ RSPCA propaganda about e-collars -
you remember Patch? that load of cr@p that you swallowed hook line and
sinker?)
Susan Fraser
and The Golden Girls,
SheBop and Shammie
Jo Wolf
reactions to high heat or heat/humidity. Schroeder can ignore it for
longer with more activity than the much younger Louie. I let them
determine activity intensity and duration.
About the high heat humidity issue. Once the heat index approaches
normal skin temperature in humans, a fan no longer cools us. It just
moves the air enough to somewhat support evaporation. At about that
same heat index, fans become markedly less helpful for dogs.
Coat as insulator. Remember, in certain conditions, to include hot
weather, a double coat can hold heat in, just as in cold weather. One
of those conditions is exercise and another is just plain ol' stress.
Additional heat is being generated by the body, trapped by the
undercoat, and retained from radiaton by the guard coat, which prevents
moving air from being of much help.
Kelpie and heat - The Kelpie and Australian Cattle Dog were both
developed to be able to work long and hard in the Australian outback
where days are long and hot. Very hot.
We laughlingly say of our Border Terriers that they wilt at promptly
85° F. They were bred for the Scotch-English border country.
Consequently, we can almost plan for the point when we need to start to
take our extra precautions. For some dogs, this includes slow steady
syringed water... not exceding the dog's normal intake, but trying to
approximate it, when stress has interfered with normal thirst drives....
maybe an ounce an hour...
After a number of models of cool mats tried, it still confuses me why
dogs don't like to sprawl out in frog position on them, as they do on
cool floors.....
Jo Wolf
Martinez, Georgia
diddy
> them
> getting sunburned if their whole body was shaved!
NOT Yul Brenner shaves, but more of a shorter shave of about 1/2 inch
length
Toni
"Susan Fraser" <chin...@aol.comdog> wrote in message
news:20020720021049...@mb-mr.aol.com...
>
> SO IF YOU ARE PLANNING TO SHAVE A GOLDEN, THEN JUST BUY A YELLOW FREAKIN'
LAB
> INSTEAD!!!!! (Sorry to shout - just had to get it outta my system :->)
>
Susan- you would just not believe the sheer numbers of LABS we are asked to
shave.
That is too much hair, too, apparently.
We also have GSD's, Pugs, Corgis, Rotties, etc. who are shaved.
South Florida + summer sure brings out some strange people.
--
Toni (following this thread with great interest)
http://www.irish-wolfhounds.com
diddy
>
> Just when you think you've got your mind pretty much set,
> then you read a post like diddy's about Danny that makes you
> wonder even more! :-) But, then not a lot of people work their
> dogs like she does Danny, nor are a good amount of dogs
> as intense as I've read him described.
> HATE the look. But, if the dog actually ACTS relieved afterward,
> then, great!
> Shelly (Who mainly had in mind the lazy SOBs that bring their
> dogs in for a shave because they're too damn lazy to groom the
> poor thing, or have never trained it to tolerate a good grooming!),
> Coda (Who seems to love the new grooming table I bought--or
> is it the branschwager??) & Guiness (Brushing is okay, as long as
> I can lie down so I don't fall over!)...
>
That's because I think there are mitigating circumstances for
EVERYTHING. Now he's older and retired, I have had no reason to shave
him. Old Gunner, whose entire life's work was making sure the Maple tree
in the back yard didn't run off, I can't tell you why, but I do know he
suffered horribly in the heat and with his heavy coat. He was an
inactive old dog, and in his later years, found relief in shaving. His
shaved period was the only time he ever played. Every spring, when he
saw the clippers, he would bound up on the grooming table, and eagerly
await the shearing. He originally got shorn to air out some sebascious
cysts. He showed so much improvement with shearing, that it became a
yearly ritual. This year was the hottest summer that I have seen in a
while. NO dogs were shaved at my house. (Shows you the conviction, I
have regarding shaving)
Danny, when showing signs of heat stress, got a fan or a cool bath.
Reka has not shown ANY signs of heat stress, although has benefitted
from some pool swims on some of the hottest days. She also sleeps in the
bathtub where it's cool, and I put a fan in there for her (removed while
showering for us :))
I am not an advocate for shaving, but I have seen instances where it was
critical in heat management, and saw that Danny was able to work shaved,
where he wouldn't have been able to work coated. With my vet's
explaination, it made sense.
I have no explaination for Gunnar's relief. A hard working dog, he was
not! Shaving seemed a relief for him, he enjoyed it, and it didn't hurt
anything. He was not an all-the-time-outdoor-dog either. My memory dims,
but I think he spent the majority of the time making sure the bathroom
stool did not run off, when he wasn't outside holding down his favorite
maple tree.
Senja got shaved only once in her life for something.... I can't recall
what, but it was necessary, and was not a part of heat management, and I
never had her shaved again, and did not feel it was necessary to do so,
with her.
Danny got shaved one winter for medical reasons, and I bought him a pony
foal blanket and could hardly wait until he grew in his coat.
I can't foresee any reason why i would ever need to shave Reka.. working
or not. She has a much different type of coat than Danny.
So there you have it, I have only had two dogs ever shaved for heat
related purposes.. one was a hard working dog.. and one was a dog
retired and protected and monitored.
I would recommend that any non-working dog unable to thermo regulate be
worked up for addisons/cushings/thyroid problems, because Gunnar did
have problems thermo-regulating and had cushings.
Chris Jung
<TO...@dog-play.com> wrote in message
news:0ROZ8.14429$T_.3...@iad-read.news.verio.net...
The best situation is
> a light colored coat, long enough to block the sun from reaching the skin,
> this is a fairly insignificant source of heat loss, but not useless.
> Evaporating moisture can take the place of sweating and provide cooling.
See http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mblackcool.html . This explains why
black dogs (my Zeffie and Pablo and Nessa's Hannah for example) tolerate sun
and heat better than light colored dogs (my Dino, a white sm. collie, and
Silka, a light sable sm.collie, both who melted in the sun). While black
absorbs heat, it also dissipates heat to the surrounding environment faster
than any other color. White hair is the least effective at dissipating heat
to the environment. Perhaps being able to dissipate internally generated
heat is more important than reflecting heat away.
One of my thoughts about the value of fur in the summertime is that breeds
who have extra thick coats were developed in cool climates. I bet the
"Ivory Coat Elkhound" would not have the same coat as the the Norwegian
Elkhound. And many of the dog breeds that come from cold regions have been
bred to have massive amounts of coat for the show ring. For example, the
original rough collie from the 1900s did not have anywhere near the amount
of coat as found in today's collie. The 1900 rough collie coat was more
like a today's typical (non-conformation) Border Collie coat in density and
thickness. I bet the 1900's rough collie could handle hot weather better
than a typical full coated 2002 collie. The type of dogs breeds that come
from warm/hot climates all have slick short coats.
I know a lot of collies who do performance events. The smoothies are fine
any day and time. The roughs become very sluggish in hot weather. I know
of one sable rough (a rescue) who is given a puppy trim every spring (2"
long all over, her owner does touch ups every 4 weeks). At summer shows,
she's as bouncy as a smoothie while the full coated roughs are melted down
into lumps. I thought she looked darn cute. Rough collies have a reputation
for being mellower and much more sedate than smoothies. In the winter I've
noticed that they are just as nutty as the smoothies. I suspect I would be
none too lively if I wore a winter coat in the summer.
Chris and her smoothies,
Zeffie & Pablo
J1Boss
>black dogs (my Zeffie and Pablo and Nessa's Hannah for example) tolerate sun
>and heat better than light colored dogs
>Chris and her smoothies,
>Zeffie & Pablo
Hannah is a blonde (it's Bagel who's black)!
But thanks for the link Chris - I've always been puzzled why my black dogs have
loved to be out in the blistering sun, and the gold dogs have wanted to stay in
the a/c or shade! The heat coming off the black coats has been amazing, but if
that's keeping them cooler, I see the tolerance!
Janet Boss
Best Friends Dog Obedience
"Nice Manners for the Family Pet"
Voted "Best of Baltimore 2001" - Baltimore Magazine
www.bestfriendsdogobedience.com
Sionnach
"J1Boss" wrote:
> Hannah is a blonde
Yep. In fact, she's nearly white- about the color of a "white Lab"; she
has white feet and a white tip on her tail, but you really have to look hard
to see 'em, as the rest of her is so pale.
http://photos.yahoo.com/bc/amberdogs2/vwp?.dir=/New+pics+7_02&.src=ph&.dnm=H
annah_run.jpg&.view=t&.done=http%3a//photos.yahoo.com/bc/amberdogs2/lst%3f%2
6.dir=/New%2bpics%2b7_02%26.src=ph%26.view=t
>(it's Bagel who's black)!
And he feels the heat WAY more than Hannah does. Of course, she has very
short fur, and he's shaggy; he's also BIG.
http://photos.yahoo.com/bc/amberdogs2/vwp?.dir=/New+pics+7_02&.src=ph&.dnm=B
agel_headshot.jpg&.view=t&.done=http%3a//photos.yahoo.com/bc/amberdogs2/lst%
3f%26.dir=/New%2bpics%2b7_02%26.src=ph%26.view=t
Angie
the short haired breeds (there are plenty of them). How many heavy coated
dogs have died from heat strokes because of someone thinking that they were
doing the dog a favor? Would you advise your best friends to shave their
dogs? How would you personally feel when your advice caused the dog to die?
How would you feel if someone that was looking for this information found
your remarks and shaved their dog, causing death? Should you be held liable
for your misinformation? I do believe so.
"Julia Altshuler" <jalts...@attbi.com> wrote in message
news:3D378003...@attbi.com...
> On another usenet group, I've run into the "a heavy fur coat protects a
dog from
> the heat as much as it does from the cold" myth. I did my best to dispel
it,
> but I'd like a little help from the experts should anyone question me.
Where do
> people get these ideas? This person was saying that a densly coated dog
like a
> Husky suffers no more than a Dalmatian in the summer. I suggested daily
> brushing, a trim and being wetted down if there's excessive panting.
>
> --Lia
Chris Jung
"Sionnach" <rhyf...@msn.com> wrote in message
news:ahc50d$rjvnd$1...@ID-45033.news.dfncis.de...
Whoops got the dogs mixed up. :-)
The common (IMHO) old wive's tale in collie-land is that heavily rough
collies should never be clipped because they NEED all that coat to insulate
them from the heat. If insulation was so beneficial I would expect to see
field trialers put warm quilted coats on their field dogs during summer
trials to improve performance. I think that dogs do need fur for protection
from the sun but to talk about massive amounts of fur as if it's a good
thing in hot weather doesn't make any sense.
Chris, who probably will be sent straight to collie hell for my blasphemy
and her smoothies,
Zeffie and Pablo
The Puppy Wizard
"diddy" <di...@nospam.diddy.net> wrote in message
news:3C55943B...@nospam.diddy.net...
> > Alikat
Jerry.
"diddy" <di...@nospam.diddy.net> wrote in message
news:3D39356E...@nospam.diddy.net...
Chris Jung
"Chris Jung" <cj...@twcny.rr.com> wrote in message
news:rag_8.195335$GY.57...@twister.nyroc.rr.com...
I bet the
> "Ivory Coat Elkhound" would not have the same coat as the the Norwegian
> Elkhound.
Whoops that was supposed to be "Ivory Coast Elkhound"
Marshall Dermer
<d.guipag...@LOLntlworld.com> writes:
Thanks Patch!
--Marshall
_____________________________________________________________
I have read rpdb for about five years. Consequently, I urge newbies to
attend to the civil and rational posts of the rpdb regulars from whom I have
learned much. They include: Ann (,Twzl, Sligo & Roy), Amy Dahl, Diane
Blackman, jdoee, Janet Boss, Susan Fraser, Avrama Gingold, Nancy Holmes,
Lynn Kosmakos, Bob Maida, MaryBeth, Ruth Mays, Cindy Tittle Moore, Robin
Nuttall, Denna Pace, John Richardson, Sarah Sionnach, Ludwig Smith, Jane
Webb, and Terri Willis.
Marshall Lev Dermer/Associate Professor/Behavior Analysis Specialty/
Department of Psychology/University of Wisconsin--Milwaukee/
Milwaukee, WI 53201
der...@uwm.edu http://www.uwm.edu/~dermer
"From the time of early robust humans [about 100,000 years ago] to the
present, the human brain has stayed the same size." Ernst Mayr, _This is
Biology_, p. 240. Consequently, what separates us from those "early robust
humans" is culture!
Jo Wolf
today. My older dog has an incorrect, "loose" coat right now... as
fluffed as a Border T gets, and he's a blue and tan (body and neck and
tail are basically black with strands of white and brown)... and he
younger, a grizzle (brown tweed with black tips andsome white) has a
very tight, correct coat. The dog with the loose coat is tolerating out
heat much better.
Jo Wolf
Martinez, Georgia
diddy
Elkhounds are all silver under their coats. The grey/black is an
illusion as it is only just the tips that are black. Perhaps this is why
Black exteriored/white undercoated Elkhounds manage to get so hot in the
sun.
Thanks for your insight.
diddy
>
> People that believe in shaving a long or heavy coated breed should stick to
> the short haired breeds (there are plenty of them). How many heavy coated
> dogs have died from heat strokes because of someone thinking that they were
> doing the dog a favor? Would you advise your best friends to shave their
> dogs? How would you personally feel when your advice caused the dog to die?
> How would you feel if someone that was looking for this information found
> your remarks and shaved their dog, causing death? Should you be held liable
> for your misinformation? I do believe so.
>
explainations put a different slant on the subject ZAnd why. As i
mentioned earlier, this has always been a highly controversial subject.
If dogs could tell us, I suppose we would then know. To me, Chris's
example about the heavy coated colloies performing sluggishly in hot
weather, while smoothies and shaved dogs bounce around the ring speaks
volumes.
I would tend to agree those heavy bulky coats, do indeed seem to slow
a dog down in hot weather.
I think each and every person should individually evaluate
dog/environment/health/purpose objectives and living situation before
shaving vs not shaving. I do not believe there is a blanket statement ..
right or wrong. Nor do I at all believe Lia gave dangerous advice
(besides, she was ASKING.. not advising)
The Puppy Wizard
"Marshall Dermer" <der...@alpha1.csd.uwm.edu> wrote in message
news:ahcdq8$u6f$1...@uwm.edu...
"Patch" <Pa...@despammed.com> wrote in message
news:ujjj16d...@corp.supernews.com...
> See what I mean?
>
>
> "The Puppy Wizard" <jho...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
> news:2cf_8.112915$JU3.50...@e3500-atl1.usenetserver.com...
> > HOWEDY "everyone,"
> >
> > Welcome to WWW Wits' End Dog Training Method School
> > Of HARD KNOCKS.
> >
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> >
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> >
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> > and Lying Dog Abusing Thugs. Jerry.
> >
> >
> >
> > "xganon" <rema...@xganon.com> wrote in message
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> > >
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> > > Newsgroups:
> >
>
rec.pets.dogs.behavior,alt.pets.dogs,alt.med.veterinary,alt.animals.dog,alt.
> > pets.dogs.labrador
> > > References: <ah77k1$18pv$1...@otis.netspace.net.au>
> > > Subject: Re: can't cilp nails -- Problem Ain't The Nails
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> > >
> > >
> > > ---
> > > This post was anonymized at http://www.xganon.com
> > > ---
Angie
newsgroups......I take that to mean that she was giving out her opinion.
"diddy" <di...@nospam.diddy.net> wrote in message
news:3D39E507...@nospam.diddy.net...
TO...@dog-play.com
> I think each and every person should individually evaluate
> dog/environment/health/purpose objectives and living situation before
> shaving vs not shaving. I do not believe there is a blanket statement ..
> right or wrong. Nor do I at all believe Lia gave dangerous advice
> (besides, she was ASKING.. not advising)
I agree. Based on some other discussions about cooling it seems that there
are enough variables that the correct answer is not going to be simple.
Diane Blackman
Melinda Shore
Julia Altshuler <jalts...@attbi.com> wrote:
>On another usenet group, I've run into the "a heavy fur
>coat protects a dog from the heat as much as it does from
>the cold" myth.
I actually don't think it's a myth, although I would
disagree with the "as much as" part of the assertion. I've
discussed this quite a bit with vets and veterinary
anatomists, and every one of them said that clipping a
northern breed dog, or even a dog with a sort of BC-ish coat
(i.e. Greta) would interfere with its ability to
thermoregulate. In my own pack the one that by far has the
most trouble with the heat is the one with the lightest
coat, but he has an insane metabolism and I don't think it's
a coat issue.
--
Melinda Shore - Software longa, hardware brevis - sh...@panix.com
If you send me harassing email, I'll probably post it
Melinda Shore
Julia Altshuler <jalts...@attbi.com> wrote:
>I don't have hard evidence, I was going on an article I read
>long ago (in print and I don't remember from where) saying that too often people
>believe that a dense fur coat will protect a dog from overheating and not take
>proper steps to protect their dogs.
Those are actually two different things. There's heat
accumulation, which a good thick coat seems to protect
against, and there's heat dissipation, which a good thick
coat definitely interferes with. An overheated dog needs to
get rid of heat quickly and a heavy coat can interfere with
that.
The Puppy Wizard
"Many People Have Problems Getting The Pinch Right, Either They Do Not Pinch
Enough, Or They Have A Very Stoic Dog. Some Dogs Will Collapse Into A
Heap. About The Ear Pinch: You Must Keep The Pressure Up" sindy "don't let
the dog SCREAM" mooreon.
"Warning: Sometimes The Corrections Will Seem Quite Harsh And
Cause You To Cringe. This Is A Normal Reaction The First Few
Times It Happens, But You'll Get Over It." mike duforth, author:
"Courteous Canine."
"I have heard advice stating that you should pre-load your dog for Bitter
Apple for it to work as efficiently as possible. What does this mean?
When you bring home the Bitter Apple for the first time, spray one
squirt directly into the dog's mouth and walk away. The dog
won't be too thrilled with this but just ignore him and continue
your normal behavior.
--Mike Dufort
author of the zero selling book
"Courteous Canines"
And from terri willis, Psychoclown wrote:
"Nope. That "beating dogs with sticks" things is
something you twisted out of context, because you
are full of bizarro manure."
> > > Jerome Bigge writes:
> > > I do know that hitting, hurting your dog will often make the
> > > dog either aggressive or a fear biter, neither of which we
> > > want to do.
> > And neither does anyone else, Jerome. No matter what Jerry Howe
> > states.
> > --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
> > You're scary Marilyn.
> > Marilyn must be quite a disturbed individual. I feel very sorry
> > for her and her family.
> > BUT, giving you the benefit of the doubt, please provide a quote
> > (an original quote, not from one of Jerry Howe's heavily edited
> > diatribes) that shows a regular poster promoting
> > or using an abusive form of training.
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
"Marshall Dermer" <der...@alpha1.csd.uwm.edu> wrote in message
news:a3h5qn$mra$1...@uwm.edu...
> >Di,
> I don't believe you mentioned a particular kind of training. If you
> are interested in training retrieval behavior than do consider
> our own Amy Dahl's:
> The 10-Minute Retriever : How to Make a Well-Mannered, Obedient and
> Enthusiastic Gun Dog in 10 Minutes a Day
> by John I. Dahl, Amy Dahl
You failed to mention your pals the dahls are proven liars and dog
abusers, professor "SCRUFF SHAKE:"
"I Would Never Advise Anyone To Slap A Dog I Do Not Believe There
Is A Single Circumstance Ever, Where Slapping A Dog Is Anything
But Destructive," "I don't see why anyone would want to choke or
beat a dog, or how any trainer could possibly get a good working dog by
making them unhapper, fearful, cowering, etc." sez amy lying frosty dahl
who continues:
> just $17.95 at Amazon.com.
> (Also, it is best to killfile posts from the few regulars here who
> are either ill-tempered, ill-mannered, or just plain ill.)
> --Marshall
amy lying frosty dahl continues:
"On the other extreme, the really hard dogs we have trained
require much more frequent and heavy application of
pressure (PAIN j.h.) to get the job done,
This is continued resistance to your increasing authority, and the
job is not done until it is overcome
Get A 30"- 40" Stick.You can have a helper wield the stick, or do it
yourself. Tougher, less tractable dogs may require you to progress to
striking them more sharply
Try pinching the ear between the metal casing and the collar, even the
buckle on the collar. Persist! Eventually, the dog will give in
but will squeal, thrash around, and direct their efforts to escaping the
ear pinch
You can press the dog's ear with a shotshell instead of your thumb
even get a studded collar and pinch the ear against that
Make the dog's need to stop the pinching so urgent that resisting
your will fades in importance.
CHUCK IT Under ITS Chin With That Ever Ready Right Hand,
As it catches on, try using the stick and no ear pinch. When the
dog is digging out to beat the stick and seems totally reliable without
any ear pinch, you are finished
This is continued resistance to your increasing authority,
and the job is not done until it is overcome" If the dog drops it, chuck
it solidly under the chin, say "No! Hold!"
(stay on the ear until it does) (perhaps because the ear is getting
tender, or the dog has decided it isn't worth it)" lying frosty dahl.
"Chin cuff absolutely does not mean slap," professora gingold.
From: Marshall Dermer (der...@alpha1.csd.uwm.edu)
In article <38CC0C43...@earthlink.net> rhur...@earthlink.net
writes:
>> -snip headers etc.
>> Yes. you're right, I really should find the book.. they don't have these
>> books in the local pet stores I frequent, where do you find Koehler?
>I got a nice large print copy from Amazon.com
>Richard
Please try Powell's Books in Portland Oregon. Their URL is:
Unlike Amazon.com, Powell's keeps both new and used books on
its shelves. You can order books via e-email.
Koehler Method Of Dog Training
by Koehler, W R
Published by HOWELL BOOK HOUSE (0876056575,
========================================================
Here's some quotes and some methods right outta your koehler book professor
"SCRUFF SHAKE:"
"The Koehler Method of Dog Training" Howell Book House," 1996
William Koehler
BARKING, WHINING, HOWLING, YODELING, SCREAMING, AND WAILING
The fact that you realize you have such a problem makes it certain
you have "reproved" the dog often enough to let him know you were
against his sound effects, even though your reproving didn't quiet
them, so we'll bypass the loudly clapped hands, the cup of water in
his face, and the "shame-shames" and start with something more
emphatic.
We'll begin with the easiest kind of vocalist to correct: the one
that charges gates, fences, doors, and windows, barking furiously at
familiar or imaginary people and objects. A few clusters of BBs from
a good slingshot, in conjunction with the light line and plenty of
temptations, will cause such a dog to use his mind rather than his
mouth.
But you won't make the permanent impression unless you
supply dozens of opportunities for him to exercise the control he
thus acquires. Make sure these opportunities don't always come at
the same time of the day, else he may learn to observe the "quiet
hour" and pursue his old routines at other times.
With the help of the light line, it will be easy to follow the BBs
with a long down to make sure he gets the most from his lesson. As
was mentioned before, eliminating the senseless barking will not
lessen the dog's value as a watchdog but rather, as he grows more
discriminating, increase it.
The dog who vocalizes in bratty protest or lonesomeness because
you're gone constitutes a different problem. If it is impractical
for someone to stay with him constantly (there are owners who cater
to neurosis by employing dog sitters), you'll have to heed
the neighbors and the law and quiet the dog. This calls for a little
ingenuity as well as a heavy hand.
Attach a line to your dog's collar, so your corrective effort
doesn't turn into a footrace around the house until you reach a
stalemate under the bed. This use of the line in the correction will
also serve to establish it as a reminder to be quiet as the dog
drags it around when you're not present. Next, equip yourself with a
man's leather belt or a strap heavy enough to give your particular
dog a good tanning.
Yup-we're going to strike him. Real hard. Remember,
you're dealing with a dog who knows he should be quiet and
neighbors who have legal rights to see that he does.
Now leave, and let your fading footsteps tell the dog of your going.
When you've walked to a point where he'll think you're gone but
where you could hear any noises he might make, stop and listen. If
you find a comfortable waiting place on a nearby porch, be careful
not to talk or laugh. Tests show a dog's hearing to be many times as
sharp as yours.
When the noise comes, instead of trying to sneak up to the door so
you can barge in while he's still barking, which is generally
impossible, respond to his first sound with an emphatic bellow of
"out," and keep on bellowing as you charge back to his area.
Thunder through the door or gate, snatch up the belt that you've
conveniently placed, and descend on him. He'll have no chance to
dodge if you grab the line and reel him in until his front feet are
raised off the floor or, if he's a big dog, until you've snubbed him
up with a hitch on something. While he's held in close, lay the
strap vigorously against his thighs.
Keep pouring it on him until he thinks it's the bitter end. A real
whaling now may cut down somewhat on the number of repeat
performances that will be necessary.
When you're finished and the dog is convinced that he is, put him on
a long down to think things over while you catch your breath. After
fifteen or twenty minutes, release him from the stay and leave the
area again.
So that you won't feel remorseful, reflect on the truth that a great
percentage of the barkers who are given away to "good homes" end
up in the kindly black box with the sweet smell. Personally, I've
always felt that it's even better to spank children, even if they
"cry out," than to "put them to sleep."
You might have a long wait on that comfortable porch before your
dog starts broadcasting again. When he does, let your long range
bellow tie the consequent correction to his first sound and repeat
the spanking, if anything emphasizing it a bit more.
It might be necessary to spend a Saturday or another day off so that
you'll have time to follow through sufficiently. When you have a
full day, you will be able to convince him each yelp will have a bad
consequence, and the consistency will make your job easier. If he
gets away with his concert part of the time, he'll be apt to gamble
on your inconsistency.
After a half dozen corrections, "the reason and the correction" will
be tied in close enough association so that you can move in on him
without the preliminary bellowing of "out." From then on, it's just
a case of laying for the dog and supplying enough bad
consequences of his noise so he'll no longer feel like gambling.
Occasionally, there is a dog who seems to sense that you're hiding
nearby and will utter no sound. He also seems to sense when you
have really gone away, at least according to the neighbors. Maybe
his sensing actually amounts to close observation. He could be
watching and listening for the signs of your actual going.
Make a convincing operation of leaving, even if it requires changing
clothes and being unusually noisy as you slam the doors on the
family car and drive away. Arrange with a friend to trade cars a
block or two from your house so you can come back and park within
earshot without a single familiar sound to tell the dog you've
returned. A few of these car changes are generally enough to fool
the most alert dog.
Whether your dog believes you are gone anytime you step out of the
house or requires the production of changing clothes and driving
off, keep working until even your neighbors admit the dog has
reformed. If there has been a long history of barking and whining,
it sometimes requires a lot of work to make a dog be quiet when
you're not around, so give the above method an honest try before
you presume your dog requires a more severe correction.
O.K. marie. After perfecting the above, you'll need this:
"The Koehler Method of Dog Training (1962). New York: Howell Book
Book House(p. 52-53)."
Hanging
"First, the trainer makes certain that the collar and leash are more
than adequate for any jerk or strain that the dog's most frantic
actions could cause. Then he starts to work the dog deliberately and
fairly to the point where the dog makes his grab. Before the teeth
have reached their target, the dog, weight permitting, is jerked from
the ground. As in coping with some of the afore-mentioned problems
the dog is suspended in mid-air.
However, to let the biting dog recover his footing while he still had
the strength to renew the attack would be cruelty. The only justifiable
course is to hold him suspended until he has neither the strength nor
inclination to renew the fight. When finally it is obvious that he is
physically incapable of expressing his resentment and is lowered to
the ground, he will probably stagger loop-legged for a few steps,
vomit once or twice, and roll over on his side. The sight of a dog
lying, thick-tongued, on his side, is not pleasant, but do not let it
alarm you
THE REAL "HOOD"
"If your dog is a real "hood" who would regard the foregoing types of
protest as "kid stuff" and would express his resentment of your
efforts by biting, your problem is difficult -- and pressing.
"Professional trainers often get these extreme problems. Nearly
always the "protest biter" is the handiwork of a person who, by
avoiding situations that the dog might resent, has nurtured the seeds
of rebellion and then cultivated the resultant growth with under
correction.
When these people reap their inevitable and oftentimes
painful harvest, they are ready to avail themselves of "the cruel
trainer" whose advice they may have once rejected because it was
incompatible with the sugary droolings of mealy-mouthed columnists,
breed-ring biddies, and dog psychologists who, by the broken skins
and broken hearts their misinformation causes, can be proven guilty of the
greatest act of cruelty to animals since the dawn of time.
"With more genuine compassion for the biting dog than would ever be
demonstrated by those who are "too kind" to make a correction and
certainly with more disregard for his safety, the professional trainer
morally feels obligated to perform a "major operation."
"Since we are presently concerned with the dog that bites in
resentment of the demands of training, we will set our example in that
situation. (In a later chapter we will deal with the with the much
easier problem of the dog that bites someone other than his master."
"A word to the wise, is sufficient," Jerry's Nana.
The Other Harry
> A thermos bottle keeps its contents either hot or cold depending upon how
> it started. Remove the insulation and see what happens.
>
> http://www.canismajor.com/dog/collie.html
> http://www.adoptapet.com/adoptapet/health.html
> http://beardie.net/hobo/advice/advice.htm
>
> The undercoat can be thinned to allow for more air exchange but the coat
> protects the dog against direct heat gain. The sun must first heat the
> air which is a poor conductor. The skin is a better heat conductor,
> easier for the sun to heat when its rays fall on it. The best situation is
> a light colored coat, long enough to block the sun from reaching the skin,
> but thin enough to allow some air circulation. Since dogs don't sweat
> this is a fairly insignificant source of heat loss, but not useless.
> Evaporating moisture can take the place of sweating and provide cooling.
>
> In summer the animal should shed most of the undercoat, leaving the longer
> outter coat. It should be less dense, but not necessarily shorter.
Diane: (really more to others)
I am a relatively new-again dog "owner". My dog is a 23# black
spaniel mix with relatively long hair. I suspect he's a mix with a
border collie.
In short, my experience with him is that you are exactly correct in
the advice you have given here. My dog shedded a lot (as in, a
*lot*) in late winter and spring, just after I got him. His
shedding was a real pain in the backside. After that, he's been no
problem in that regard.
It makes sense to me that he was simply shedding his undercoat.
That's what it seems like.
The hairs are definitely no shorter. To my eye, his coat just
seemed to thin-out. I can't distinguish between an undercoat and an
overcoat, but I do believe there are two layers of hair on him.
Where I think he / we went wrong, is that he tries to conduct
himself the same way on hot summer days in the same way that he is
used to doing on cooler days. He tries to run as hard as he can for
as long as he can.
He's about 1 1/2 years old, so he has a whole lot of energy and he's
still learning about life.
The other day, he thoroughly exhausted himself at the park. I had
to carry him back to the car. This was *not* good (!!!). I was
literally afraid that he might have run himself to death.
Short story: Everything worked out just fine, but I think I had a
near-miss which was really my fault.
In befriefing myself about what happened, my thoughts are that his
exhaustion had nothing to do with the fact that he has a long black
coat. Maybe a little, but not much.
I think it had a lot more to do with fact that I'd kept him
corked-up inside the the house / yard for a couple days (mainly
because I didn't want to go outside for long), and then I let him go
freely running in the park in the middle of a hot afternoon.
Bad idea.
To make matters worse, I had made no provision for even giving him
water. I tried to improvise one, but the water fountains at the
park didn't work.
I had no way of helping him on the spot. But I had still let him
run his butt off at the exact wrong time of day.
I guess we live and learn. Hopefully both. Next time, I won't do
things that way.
In any event, I don't think what we encountered that day had much at
all to do with the fact that he has a long black coat. There was
definitely a problem, but his coat wasn't the problem.
Harry
The Puppy Wizard
"Angie" <a...@charter.net> wrote in message
news:ujju64m...@corp.supernews.com...
> Really? The one that I read said she was dispelling
> the myth on other newsgroups......I take that to mean
> that she was giving out her opinion.
Figger it out, Angie. We got lying dog abusing Thugs:
"diddy" <di...@nospam.diddy.net> wrote in message
news:3C55943B...@nospam.diddy.net...
> > Alikat
Jerry.
> "diddy" <di...@nospam.diddy.net> wrote in message
> news:3D39E507...@nospam.diddy.net...
> > Angie wrote:
> > >
> > > People that believe in shaving a long or heavy coated breed
> > I think each and every person should individually
Skitz
"The Other Harry" <hc...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:7tdkju077jl29l2s6...@4ax.com...
> > In any event, I don't think what we encountered that day had much at
> all to do with the fact that he has a long black coat. There was
> definitely a problem, but his coat wasn't the problem.
>
can't have him outside as long as my wolf or white coated-dog. The black
coat just soaks in the rays to quickly. Even the wolf with the long coat
stays cooler than the extremely short black coated dog.
Skitz
Jenn
news:BTF_8.16082$927....@nwrddc01.gnilink.net...
>
> "The Other Harry" <hc...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
> news:7tdkju077jl29l2s6...@4ax.com...
> > > In any event, I don't think what we encountered that day had much at
> > all to do with the fact that he has a long black coat. There was
> > definitely a problem, but his coat wasn't the problem.
> >
> Just having a black coat is a problem.
Yup. I took my li'l black mutt to watch an agility trial today, and though
it wasn't too hot out, his playing and being a mindful boy overheated him.
Though most of the dogs that were *competing* barely seemed to feel it.
After Frodo finished the entire container of water I brought for him, I knew
we had to go.
Jenn S
Julia Altshuler
time I've been talked about in the third person. I feel like I've been properly
initiated now. Thanks, Diddy, for the vote of support. I think we can all
agree that there are a lot of variables. That's what I reported back to the
other group when I corrected myself there.
I'm wondering if some of the confusion (and Angie's strong disagreement with me)
has to do with the differences between brushing, trimming and shaving. I
originally recommended brushing and trimming, brushing to help remove an
undercoat which has shed naturally in the warmer weather and trimming to help
remove more excess fur. I'm not a groomer (and have never had my dogs
professionally groomed since I do all the bathing and brushing that's needed
myself) so I'm not sure if I'm using these terms correctly. Shaving makes me
think of removing all the fur right up to the skin or leaving only half an inch
or so. I agree that removing a dog's whole coat doesn't sound like a good idea
and never meant to give the impression that I did. My apologies if incorrect
terms gave anyone the wrong impression.
--Lia
Chris Jung
I've seen collies shaved down to the skin (rescue cases who have coats
solidly matted). Many of those collies, after their adventure with the
clippers, run around going "wheeeee!" Rescue people have a clue so they do
not put recently shaved collies out in the sun. Except for not permitted to
bake in the sun, they are treated like normal dogs. Those collies do just
fine and go on to grow nice coats.
The person I know with the "pseudo-smooth" rough collie does the trimming
herself. She's pretty good at it and the coat is about 2" all over. She
trims coat every 4 weeks. Since the guard and undercoat hairs are the same
length, the fur is not flat like a smoothie but instead it's fluffy like a 6
month old collie.
I have another friend in Pittsburgh who has two beautiful rough collies.
Rusty, a big male, has an enormous coat with an overabundance of
ndercoat - even in the hottest summer. My friend likes to hike with her
dogs and they love it too. However when the temperature rises above 65
degrees, they just melt. They overheat even during dawn or dusk walks. So
for the past three years, she has them professionally trimmed in a lion cut:
body trimmed to 1-2 inches except for the mane (ruff) and tail. After their
lions cuts, they can hike just fine. By Thanksgiving, the fur has grown
back and they look like normal roughs again.
I've known people with geriatric heavily coated dogs who trim down all that
fur and find it rejuvenates the old guys. One nice old dog I knew was a big
handsome black Briard named Leedo. Since Leedo was a champion and had an
incredible coat, his owner was reluctant to cut it down. When he did, he
said that Leedo began acting like a puppy all over again. The owner
regretted that he hasn't cut off the coat sooner. Leedo did look a little
goofy. Briards have double dewclaws and with the fur a uniform 2 inches,
Leedo had huge Muppet feet.
Anyway, the conclusion of my rambling is to comment on Angie's assertion
that cutting down a dog's coat (whether shaving to the skin or cutting down
to a few inches) is inherently dangerous. Dogs shaved down to the skin
obviously do require protection from the sun. That's common sense. Poodles
get trimmed down and don't suddenly die of heatstroke so why is it different
for other dogs? Collie rescues all over the country shave down badly
matted roughs and non of them died from heatstroke afterwards.
Enough rambling, time to get back to work,
Chris and her lazy smoothies,
Zeffie and Pablo
Patch
"Susan Fraser" <chin...@aol.comdog> wrote in message
<snip>
> The vet Patch quoted is also a retriever trainer from around here, and he
> shares this advice often on the Hunting-Retriever list. (Coincidentally,
this
> is the list where I learned of the bu!!&i+ RSPCA propaganda about
e-collars -
> you remember Patch? that load of cr@p that you swallowed hook line and
> sinker?)
What "crap" was that ?
The "crap" which *showed*, in a *news* report, not an *RSPCA* report, the
burns on a dogs neck ?
Patch
Patch
<snip>
> I've known people with geriatric heavily coated dogs who trim down all
that
> fur and find it rejuvenates the old guys. One nice old dog I knew was a
big
> handsome black Briard named Leedo. Since Leedo was a champion and had an
> incredible coat, his owner was reluctant to cut it down. When he did, he
> said that Leedo began acting like a puppy all over again. The owner
> regretted that he hasn't cut off the coat sooner. Leedo did look a little
> goofy. Briards have double dewclaws and with the fur a uniform 2 inches,
> Leedo had huge Muppet feet.
I used to clip my old girls [RB] coat in the spring when she was 16+. She
was a Labradoodle and she didnt moult. Her coat was very thick indeed [her
nickname was Teddybear] and she did get quite lethargic in the warmer
weather but when I clipped her coat for her [she looked like her coat was a
golden crushed velvet when clipped :-) ] she was *much* happier and it did
seem to take years off her.
>
> Anyway, the conclusion of my rambling is to comment on Angie's assertion
> that cutting down a dog's coat (whether shaving to the skin or cutting
down
> to a few inches) is inherently dangerous. Dogs shaved down to the skin
> obviously do require protection from the sun. That's common sense. Poodles
> get trimmed down and don't suddenly die of heatstroke so why is it
different
> for other dogs? Collie rescues all over the country shave down badly
> matted roughs and non of them died from heatstroke afterwards.
My Defa [Border Collie] has been clipped once [won a voucher in a raffle and
he "drew the short straw" <g>].
I have to say, he *loves* being pampered so a trip to the salon was a real
treat for him in that regard, and he actually looked rather exotic but
*never again* !!
He tolerates warm weather *much* better with his coat long [silky/fluffy but
not overly thick except his britches]. As many of the agility displays we
take part in mean him being out much of the day, I wont be taking his coat
off again as, having known him with an all over clip for comparison, he
seems more comfortable with it than without. [I do take precautions by
providing him with shade and using a dog sun block spray].
I`m surprised about darker dogs tolerating it better than lights. Defa is
pure white with a couple of black splodges and to feel the white, he is nice
and cool from the sun being reflected off him while the splodges always feel
*really* warm from absorbing it, and Gremlin, who is nearly all black,
doesnt like being in the sun much at all.
Mind you, the weather here doesnt get nearly as hot as the US so perhaps its
not as comparable ?
Anything much over 22 and its windows open wide and fans on [in the house]
or I melt !!
Patch
KWBrown
> Melissa S. Frye wrote in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
> > hence the popularity of troughs - they are deep and don't
> > heat up as easily as wasing pools (which are fine if cool
> > water has just been added)
>
> This is what I want for my dogs:
> http://www.rubbermaid.com/hpd/consumer/index.jhtml
>
> Enter "stock tank" into the search box.
Another use for them! They make, FYI, fabulous birthing pools - deep
and hold lots of water and expectant mother (and midwife, if
necessary.)
Sold mine after last kid without thinking of how very useful it could
be...
Kate
Skitz
badly matted
skin disease to treat (basically a medical reason)
had a german shepard that in his old age stopped shedding his winter coat.
The vet actually recommended shaving. He loved it and his coat grew back to
a summer coat and then the winter coat would come back in the winter and the
next summer we had to do it all over again.
I'm sure there are other exceptions out there also.
The rule I live by is my thought that nature provided them with what they
need. Natural selection. Unless you have a breed not designed for this
environment, then it's my guess to leave them as they are.
Skitz
"Chris Jung" <cj...@twcny.rr.com> wrote in message
news:yMU_8.204881$GY.59...@twister.nyroc.rr.com...
>
Toni
>
> The rule I live by is my thought that nature provided them with what they
> need. Natural selection. Unless you have a breed not designed for this
> environment, then it's my guess to leave them as they are.
>
Problem is- natural selection didn't make 400+ breeds.
Man did.
And in many instances, we have created dogs with such specialized needs that
they simply could not survive in nature.
--
Toni
http://www.irish-wolfhounds.com
Karen J. Cravens
news:8k9%8.15092$_C2.10...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net:
> Problem is- natural selection didn't make 400+ breeds.
> Man did.
> And in many instances, we have created dogs with such specialized
> needs that they simply could not survive in nature.
Been reading PVP too, huh? (Well, actually, the author's notes.)
--
Karen J. Cravens
Skitz
of a hand man has had in developing the breeds we have today.
But I still wouldn't shave the dog unless there is a real reason as
mentioned above. Could be cause most my dogs have been blessed with coats I
didn't have to worry about that with.
Skitz
"Toni" <To...@irish-wolfhoundsSPAM.com> wrote in message
news:8k9%8.15092$_C2.1...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
Angie
their own can and do fend for themselves. Man cannot breed the dog out of
the dog.
"Skitz" <michael...@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:0Sh%8.6214$Dj6....@nwrddc04.gnilink.net...
Skitz
by natural selection. Doberman Pins are actually bred originally from
minpins. The doberman was created by mans desire to have a large min pin
(and other reasons have to do with guarding). Yes the dog is still a dog,
but natural selection in dogs is pretty much gone for the most part because
the majority of dogs are domesticated. Some live in AC homes so through
generations and generations nature doesn't see the need to lighten their
coat as the climate gets hotter each year. Not sure if all that makes
sense, but I think that is the point that was trying to be made.
Skitz
"Angie" <a...@charter.net> wrote in message
news:ujroqso...@corp.supernews.com...
Xia
news:0ROZ8.14429$T_.3...@iad-read.news.verio.net:
> On Fri, 19 Jul 2002 02:48:36 GMT Julia Altshuler
> <jalts...@attbi.com> whittled these words:
>> On another usenet group, I've run into the "a heavy fur
coat protects
>> a dog from the heat as much as it does from the cold"
myth. I did my
>> best to dispel it, but I'd like a little help from the
experts should
>> anyone question me. Where do people get these ideas?
> A thermos bottle keeps its contents either hot or cold
depending upon
> how it started. Remove the insulation and see what
happens.
I think it's the same idea as the type of clothing that
people wear in
the desert (like Bedouin)- they wear several layers of
loose clothing,
allowing air to circulate under/between then while the
outer layer
absorbs the heat from the sun.
Lizzi
Ivana Marinkovic
> by natural selection. Doberman Pins are actually bred originally from
> minpins. The doberman was created by mans desire to have a large min pin
I envision old Louis rounding up fierce minipinchers while working as an
AC...
Mark Shaw
Xia <X...@example.com> wrote:
>I think it's the same idea as the type of clothing that
>people wear in
>the desert (like Bedouin)- they wear several layers of
>loose clothing,
>allowing air to circulate under/between then while the
>outer layer
>absorbs the heat from the sun.
There was an article in the Dallas Morning News a week or
so ago that put this very theory forward. The idea was that
people shouldn't clip their dogs in the summer (a common
practice here), but rather should keep them well-brushed to
minimize the undercoat.
--
Mark Shaw (and Maggie) anti-spam: change 'bang' to 'not'
=======================================================================
"To his dog, every man is Napoleon; hence
the constant popularity of dogs." -Aldous Huxley
Patch
"Mark Shaw" <ms...@bangnetcom.com> wrote in message
news:ZgEQ9AeR...@panix.com...
> In article <Xns92566762C...@205.243.101.47>,
> Xia <X...@example.com> wrote:
> >I think it's the same idea as the type of clothing that
> >people wear in
> >the desert (like Bedouin)- they wear several layers of
> >loose clothing,
> >allowing air to circulate under/between then while the
> >outer layer
> >absorbs the heat from the sun.
>
> There was an article in the Dallas Morning News a week or
> so ago that put this very theory forward. The idea was that
> people shouldn't clip their dogs in the summer (a common
> practice here), but rather should keep them well-brushed to
> minimize the undercoat.
>
> --
> Mark Shaw (and Maggie)
Interestingly, a friends dog [a nearly all black fluffy coated BC] has just
been clipped short all over on her vets advice because he`d been collapsing
in the heat this past week. A heart problem was suspected so he had a
cardiogram and chest x-rays yesterday. She should have the results today as
she has to wait for everything to be sent through to her own vet but routine
checks and immediately available info showed him to be *extremely* fit [he
does agility incidentally] with no "obvious" heart problem. I saw him on
Wednesday with his hair cut and my friend said he does seem to be *much*
happier with the coat gone [like he`s been "free`d" to use her phrasing].
His normal coat is very fluffy and sticky-out like a puff ball [sorry, my
descriptive powers are crap as usual and BC coats vary so much its not
something you can really pin down - perhaps if you think of a Samoyed sort
of look but not as long, that's about right !!] so theoretically it would
circulate air pretty well as opposed to a thick but flat/close coat [know
what I mean ?!].
He hasn't had an episode since his coat was clipped but my friend isn't sure
how much of that is due to the coat being gone or how much is due to her
being extra careful about how much she`s letting him do exertion-wise.
[There was no pattern to times of day when it was happening btw, in case
anyone is wondering about a possible connection with the hottest time of the
day].
It *is* unusually warm in UK at the moment, and has been consistent for the
last week-ish. The dog is just over a year old and hasn't been exposed much
to hot weather [cos we rarely have any !]. I wonder if that is playing a
significant part in it as he is quite young and inexperienced about "pacing"
himself ?
He has two speeds - immobile when sleeping and a whirlwind the rest of the
time !
Patch
Sionnach
"Patch" wrote: in message
>
> Interestingly, a friends dog [a nearly all black fluffy coated BC] has
just
> been clipped short all over on her vets advice because he`d been
collapsing
> in the heat this past week.
>The dog is just over a year old and hasn't been exposed much
> to hot weather [cos we rarely have any !]. I wonder if that is playing a
> significant part in it as he is quite young and inexperienced about
"pacing"
> himself ?
Patch- your friend might be interested to know that there is a genetic
condition -Malignant Hypothermia- which has to do with dogs being unable to
properly regulate heat, and "collapsing in the heat" is pretty much how it
manifests itself. It's common among BCs- comes up several times a year on
the agility lists- not USENET, the Yahoo e-mail lists.
It's probably not as well known in the UK, for the simple reason that you
rarely get truly hot weather. (Here in MD, we routinely have temps in the
upper 90s- Fahrenheit, that is. Right now, it's 81F at 9:50 A.M.)
Patch
"Sionnach" <rhyf...@msn.com> wrote in message
news:ai0smq$10b780$1...@ID-45033.news.dfncis.de...
*Many* thanks Shelly, I`ll pass that on. I know the vet where the x-rays and
cardiogram were done and I wont be surprised [ahem....] if he hasnt
considered anything "out of the ordinary" range of what they usually see
there [its not her own vets -their cardio equipment is being repaired at the
moment].
Its certainly not a condition I`ve come across here but as you rightly say,
its not exactly tropical temps in UK usually !
Todays charts are giving max temps of 27C in my region [whats that in F ??]
and its a *really* uncomfortable heat with virtually no breeze. Its the sort
of rare weather than brings thousands of UK people out in their shorts or
bikini`s so I can expect to see a mass of humans resembling sun burnt
lobsters for the next few days !
My friends dogs` x-rays and cardiogram were confirmed as all clear [I saw
her yesterday] but she is still waiting on blood test results.
Do you know if MH would show up in a routine panel or does it need to be,
[or can it be ?], specifically tested for ?
Patch
Patch
"Patch" <d.guipag...@LOLntlworld.com> wrote in message
<snip>
> *Many* thanks Shelly, I`ll pass that on.
Sorry, that should have read many thanks to Sionnach !!!
Don't know where my head was at there !!!
Patch
Peter L. Berghold
> Where do people get these ideas?
Well.... I was told that most emphatically by a vet (who I don't go to
anymore) what a disservice I did to my Samoyed one summer when I had him
stripped.
This was the year we got Frosty and when we got him his fur was so badly
matted that we had no choice but to strip him.
The vet's position was that the fur on a long-haired variety acts as an
insulator just like styrofoam on a cooler. It keeps them warm in the
winter and cool in the summer.
I didn't bother point out to this bozo that a cooler left in full sun gets
pretty hot on the inside insulation and all.
If this vet is putting this out, how many others are and how many people
have the told this fish tale to.
OTOH: Frosty is apt to stay outdoors on his own say so on all but the very
hottest days of the year. He loves to lay by my fence with his nose
perched on the lowest bar and watch the world go by. When he has had
enough he comes to the back door and "squeeks" to come in.
Peter L. Berghold Pe...@Berghold.Net -or- Peter.B...@med.nyu.edu
Manager Unix Engineering,MT Sinai NYU (212) 263-6932
For PGP public key send email to: pgp...@berghold.net
diddy
>
> On Thu, 18 Jul 2002 22:48:36 -0400, Julia Altshuler wrote:
>
> > Where do people get these ideas?
>
> Well.... I was told that most emphatically by a vet (who I don't go to
> anymore) what a disservice I did to my Samoyed one summer when I had him
> stripped.
>
> This was the year we got Frosty and when we got him his fur was so badly
> matted that we had no choice but to strip him.
>
>
> have the told this fish tale to.
>
I think people who advocate strictly Pro-shaving and ANTI-shaving
stances, are all missing the boat. Both sides came to their positions
for a reason. I think they dismiss the evidence that there is another
side, and therefore neither side is entirely factual.
I think this is a very complicated topic, and each argument has it's
positive and negatives. I think it's correct to believe that both sides
are correct, depending on the environment, conditions the dog lives in,
and exercise being a factor. I can't believe there any rights or wrongs,
because we will never really know.
Out of curiosity though, I polled our breed list concerning the subject
and asked those who had lost dogs due to the heat, if they were fully
coated, or shaved. !00% of the dogs dying due to heat were fully coated.
However the number of shaved dogs in our breed (mostly because they look
so hideous) are so few, the statistics would have to be skewed as far as
being meaningful.
Myself, after witnessing such joie de vivre after being liberated from
their coats, I would have to say it's a relief.
But then.. when I come in from outside on a bitterly cold winter day
and take off my VERY heavy furnishings, even though I was not hot with
them on when I came in and am still not uncomfortable, I still feel very
liberated losing the bulk. This may be what heavy coated dogs are
experiencing when they get shaved.
When all the arguments come in, I still say we aren't a dog, we don't
dissipate heat in the same manner as a dog, and therefore, only
speculate what they must be feeling, and in truth, we will never know.
I don't think there is a right or wrong. I say it depends.....
Patch
"diddy" <di...@nospam.diddy.net> wrote in message
<snip>
> I think people who advocate strictly Pro-shaving and ANTI-shaving
> stances, are all missing the boat. Both sides came to their positions
> for a reason. I think they dismiss the evidence that there is another
> side, and therefore neither side is entirely factual.
> I think this is a very complicated topic, and each argument has it's
> positive and negatives. I think it's correct to believe that both sides
> are correct, depending on the environment, conditions the dog lives in,
> and exercise being a factor. I can't believe there any rights or wrongs,
> because we will never really know.
>
<snip>
Well, I`m on the fence on this one.
Defa has been clipped once but is more comfortable in the heat with his coat
than without it [observation from him being clipped].
As we take part in agility displays, I cant control which parts of the day
he is out in [such as last Saturday when the temp here was *very* high for
UK] but he coped very well indeed due to having a good shade which I bought
him for such times and being quite loose coated for a breeze to get through
[albeit a breeze of his own making when we were walking around / running the
course].
As I have said, I wont be clipping Defa again.
I did, however, clip Willow on Sunday as he is still a little overweight
[may or may not be relevant re heat ?] and I can totally control when he
goes out so I can keep out of the sun during the hottest part of the day
[plus I have fans running in the house at the moment].
He is definitely more comfortable since his coat came off so here are two
dogs, same breed, both white, both in the same home but which handle it
completely differently because they have a variation in their general
lifestyle [i.e. one does agility and is naturally very active, the other
doesn't do agility and is not as active as Defa as he`s a tripod and gets
muscle burn in his remaining rear leg if I let him overdo it].
So, to me, its something individual to each dogs and its
circumstances/lifestyle.
Whichever choice people make on it, so long as they do whatever it takes to
keep the dog *comfortable and safe*, [from sunburn or overheating, with or
without coat] then both "sides" are right.
Patch
Sionnach
"Peter L. Berghold" wrote:
> Well.... I was told that most emphatically by a vet (who I don't go to
> anymore) what a disservice I did to my Samoyed one summer when I had him
> stripped.
>
> This was the year we got Frosty and when we got him his fur was so badly
> matted that we had no choice but to strip him.
Peter, this post has me slightly confused: what, exactly, did you have
done to your dog?
"Stripping" specifically means pulling out part of the coat by hand,
either with the fingers or a comb- not at all the same thing as
clipping/shaving a dog's coat. It usually refers to thinning/removing the
outer hair of a wire-coated dog, but can also mean hand-pulling a dog's
undercoat which hasn't "blown" on its own- I "stripped" Morag's undercoat by
hand last month, as she doesn't normally shed all of it and we're having a
very hot summer.
The Puppy Wizard
other dog recently cause you was afraid of their fighting cause you're an
abuser and can't control your dogs without hurting them.
"Peter L. Berghold" <pe...@berghold.net> wrote in message
news:pan.2002.07.29.14....@berghold.net...
Toni
> Peter, this post has me slightly confused: what, exactly, did you have
> done to your dog?
> "Stripping" specifically means pulling out part of the coat by hand,
> either with the fingers or a comb- not at all the same thing as
> clipping/shaving a dog's coat.
Lots of people use "strip" to mean a total, all body, shave down, usually
due to severe matting.
Confusing, but there you go.
--
Toni
http://www.irish-wolfhounds.com
Rocky
> Lots of people use "strip" to mean a total, all body, shave
> down, usually due to severe matting.
> Confusing, but there you go.
Terminology differences. A few years ago I would have thought
that "strip = remove body covering", but then, I'm a guy.
--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
Peter L. Berghold
> "Peter L. Berghold" wrote:
>
> Peter, this post has me slightly confused: what, exactly, did you
> have
> done to your dog?
Had his coat removed so that there was only a minimal layer of undercoat
left.
Let me explain (and I left this out of the last post as irrelavent to the
original topic). When we got Frosty orginally he came from an abusive
home where he was tied out to a dog house on a short lead. He couldn't
get out of his own (sorry, going to be blunt) shit as a consequence.
As a secondary consequence to that his skin became infected and there
were maggots living in his fur not to mention lots of other unpleasant
things. He was also one large mat from head to do.
Using normal grooming methods were not going to help Frosty in the shape
he was in.
We had a groomer use a #10 (if I remember correctly) blade and take his
coat completely off. No, we didn't use a razor on him and take him down
to bare skin but we did take his undercoat down pretty far.
Once that was done we could then treat the infections that he had as
well as get rid of all the vermin that had taken up residence on his
body.
That was over 10 years ago and Frosty is now the "old man" of the house
at 11 1/2 years old.
Nobody messes with the fluffy white dog... ;-)
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