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Re: Hey, Robin! Agility.

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Sep 27, 2008, 10:10:12 PM9/27/08

HOWEDY matty you pathetic miserable stinkin
rotten lyin dog abusin punk thug coward active
acute chronic life-long incurable malignant malici-
HOWES mental case and illegal doggy day care
and "agility school" operator FRAUD and SCAM ARTIST,

"Rocky" <3d...@rocky-dog.com> wrote in message
news:Fri9B26C85E3F645au...@rocky-dog.com...
> I've been keeping a close eye on the FCI worlds

Yeah? And The Sincerely Incredibly Freakin Insanely
Simply Amazing, Majestic Grand Master Puppy, Child,
Pussy, Birdy, Goat, Ferret, Monkey, SpHOWES, And
Horsey Wizard got HIS eye on *you*, matty <{}'; ~ ) >

> While the first is not quite a Min Pin, my first thought was:

"Rocky" <2d...@rocky-dog.com> wrote
For reasons I'll only explain privately, I've gone no
archive, and it's a shame. Once in a while, while
looking for something else, I'll run into an old post
of mine.

What an idiotic response!

Whoops.

---------------------------

BWEEEAAAHAHAAAHAAHAAA!~!~!

> Plustoo, watch to the end of the German runs, the
> last is very entertaining and very excellent.

robin has CRIPPLED her LAST TWO "agility" dogs.

> --
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.

It's OVER, matty, you pathetic miserable stinkin rotten
lyin animal murderin punk thug coward active acute
chronic life-long incurable malignant maliciHOWES
MENTAL CASE. You can't post your LIES IDIOCY
INSANITY and ABUSE here abHOWETS nodoGdameneD
more:

From: Rocky <2dogsREM...@rocky-dog.com.invalid>
Date: 24 Jul 2004 04:00:53 GMT
Local: Fri, Jul 23 2004 11:00 pm
Subject: Re: Info. on the puppy wizard?

Cam said in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:

> Everything he preaches is very positive, no
> correction, no punishment, all praise and love.

You are very wrong.

--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.

From: Rocky <2d...@rocky-dog.com>
Date: 23 Nov 2003 02:40:42 GMT
Subject: Re: house training

steve braun said in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:

> I dont like the insinuations that i am abusing
> my dog when i am NOT.

Then you may want to ignore the Puppy Wizard/Jerry Howe.
--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.

From: Rocky <3da...@rocky-dog.com>
Date: 16 Aug 2002 18:40:54 GMT
Subject: Re: training a dog...
nancyj wrote in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:

> The pressure meant a GOOD possibility if she could
> just push up hard enough, I'd understand. I did
> eventually <G>. I switched to a light tap!

Yup, once a dog learns to sit, a light tap
works as a reminder when they "forget".
--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.

But "NEVER HIT your dog", eh, matty?

From: "Nevyn" <greatd...@badmama.com.au>
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2003 20:05:45 +0800

Subject: Re: puppy wizzards training manual.

G'DAY STEVE.

I used to be like you.

Then I found a book...it was called... the
wits end dog training manual.... and then
there was light..and perfectly trained dogs.
--
Thankyou,
Nevyn
Nevyn E.D.
Veterinary Nurse & Animal Trainer
greatd...@badmama.com.au

"Yu agonna get whats comin' to you...for
all the bad bad things you to do your...dog"
________________________

"steve braun" <twopointerp...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:2d60c10a.03112...@posting.google.com...

> twopointerp...@aol.com (steve braun) wrote in message
<news:2d60c10a.0311...@posting.google.com>...

> > Hello, Mr. puppy wizzard, how do i find a copy of
> > your manual. Do you have a link that takes me to it?
>
> > I think i would like to read it.
>
> > Now i have another question for you in regards to
> > walking your dog. How do you feel about the gentle
> > leader? I bought one for each of my pups and the
> > difference in walking them is unbelievable. If you are
> > not sure what the gentle leader is check out their web
> > site at www.premier.com. If you are as good as you say
> > you are i want to read your manual.
> > thanks,
> > Steve

> > P.s. by the way my pup doesnt pee as soon as i put
> > him in his crate its after he's been in for a while
> > and cant hold it anymore that he pee's

> Howdy, jerry,
> well i started reading your manual, Im going to
> perfectly honest with you I thought last night when
> i started reading your posts you were full of crap
> but the more i read the more i could tell that you
> really do care about dogs. That is why asked for
> a copy of your manual.
>
> I really like your analogy on barking that was very
> interesting and gave it a perspective i never even thought
> of. As far as your praising the dogs when they are
> misbehaving i still dont understand how that works (i
> didnt get all that far in the manual yet.
>
> But i must say my female was clawing at the couch so i
> praised her like you say to do, i praised her twice for
> it and she stopped and came over to me.
>
> So i think what you have to say has merit, And for one
> am anxious to finish the book and get started because
> i love my dogs and really am looking forward to interacting
> with them on a positive note all of the time.
>
> This may be a little premature jerry, but
> Thank you
> Steve

Rocky wrote:
> Robin said in rec.pets.dogs.health:
> > Jerry, you give the lying dog abusing punk thug coward
> > mental cases too much credit for the ability to influence

Naaah, The Amazing Puppy Wizard was just BAITING these lying
dog abusing punk thug coward mental cases again <{); ~ ) >

> You really are a piece of work.

INDEEDY, matty. Robin studied and followed the INSTRUCTIONS
in her FREE COPY of The Amazing Puppy Wizard's 100%
CONSISTENTLY NEARLY INSTANTLY SUCCESSFUL FREE
WWW Wits' End Dog Training Method Manual and REPORTED
her 100% NEARLY INSTANT SUCCESS RIGHT HERE on The
Amazing Puppy Wizard's FREE WWW Wits' End Dog Training
Method Manual Forums And SCHOOL Of HARD KNOCKS
And HUMAN And ANIMAL BEHAVIOR RESEARCH
LABORATORIES, matty <{); ~ ) >

You're settin in it <{); ~ ) >

> Keep this out of the health groups, 'kay?

Dogs DIE from separation anXXXIHOWESNESS, matty, JUST
LIKE HOWE your own DEATHLY ILL dog Rocky is DYIN from
STRESS INDUCED AUTO-IMMUNE DIS-EASE aka The Puppy
Wizard's SYNDROME, on accHOWENT of you're a lyin dog abusin
punk thug coward MENTAL CASE, matty, and you can't post here
abHOWETS nodoGgamenedMOORE <{); ~ ) >

> --
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.

"Rocky" <2...@rocky-dog.com> wrote in message
news:Xns92FEEC097E4AAau...@130.133.1.4...
>
> Linda wrote in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
> > When you compare using sound and
> > praise to solve a problem with using
> > shock collars, hanging, and punishment
> > how can you criticize the use of sound?

> There's nothing more to be said, then.
> You've made up your mind.

> But you've impressed me by mentioning

> that you're a professor with 30 years of
> experience.
\
> So, can you cite some examples of
> people recommending "shock collars,
> hanging, and punishment"?
> --
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
>
>> I do know that hitting, hurting your dog
>> will often make the dog either aggressive
>> or a fear biter, neither of which we want
>> to do.
>
> And neither does anyone else, Jerome.
> No matter what Jerry Howe states.
>
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
>
> BUT, giving you the benefit of the
> doubt, please provide a quote (an
> original quote, not from one of Jerry
> Howe's heavily edited diatribes) that
> shows a regular poster promoting or
> using an abusive form of training.
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
>
> So, can you cite some examples of
> people recommending "shock collars,
> hanging, and punishment"?
> --
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.
>
> What's the point, but: Refer me to those posts of
> which you have read so many. While you're going
> through them, point out those which recommend
> shocking, and pinching, and beating. Thank you.
> --
> -Matt. Rocky's a Dog

> Rocky wrote:
> "Deltones" <vibrov...@hotmail.com> said in
> rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
>
> > After your defense of "Limited" choking, what
> > would be the point? Where I come from, choking
> > is choking. It's never limited.
>
> So, you can't point out abuse where none occurs.
> Thank you for your contribution.
>-
> --Matt. Rocky's a Dog.

From: Rocky (2...@rocky-dog.com)
Subject: Re: How to handle aggressive situations
Date: 2004-10-19 19:42:54 PST

Melanie L Chang said in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:

> I try really hard not to yell. The times that I have,
> Solo joined in and then lunged to the end of the
>leash.

Or, at the other end of the spectrum, Rocky cowers,
thinking I'm angry at him - a reason I don't "yuk out"
others' dogs at agility trials or training.
--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.

---------------

Sometimes my "voice of god" startles human
and dog, especially when the human didn't
see the inappropriate behaviour. --Matt.
Rocky's a Dog.

"Rocky" <2...@rocky-dog.com> wrote in message
news:Xns92C1EC10BFE7au...@130.133.1.4...
Rosa Palmén wrote in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:

> Anybody else got bilingual dogs?

Long ago my Hebrew was pretty good - but now I
only use "Chutza"(throat clearing 'ch') - "Out" when
it's reallyreally important that my dogs get away from
something.

"Well, Jack Did Hit My Dog. Actually I'd Call It A Sharp
Tap Of The Crook To The Nose. I Know Jack Wouldn't
Have Done It If He Thought Solo Couldn't Take It. I Still
Crate Him Because Otherwise I Fear He Might Eat My
Cat," Melanie Lee Chang * mch...@lppi.ucsf.edu
Canine Behavioral Genetics Project
University of California, San Francisco
http://psych.ucsf.edu/K9BehavioralGenetics/

From: Rocky <2...@rocky-dog.com>
Date: 10 Jun 2003 18:00:45 GMT
Subject: Re: Absolutely abysmal agility day

Robin Nuttall said in rec.pets.dogs.behavior

> One of the things that frustrates methe most about
> agility is that people seem to think that ALL dogs
> are fragile, shrinking flowers who cannot be
> corrected in any way.

Well, maybe one day -- when Friday doesn't take
correction so much to heart -- I'll try something
different. Right now, he's just getting the confidence
to work a few jumps ahead of me.
--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.

"I crate Rocky, even though he's 8.5 years old, but
only when I'm gone during summertime days -
maybe an hour at the most. (Other than hot days,
my dogs are always with me.)

While Friday has been totally reliable unsupervised
from the day I got him from a rescue, Rocky has not.

Rocky will go looking for food even in areas where
there's no possibility of food.

The good thing is that he likes his crate, runs for
it when I ask, and gets food when he's in it.
--
--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.

BWEEEEEEEEEAAHAHAHHAAA!!!

From: Rocky (mbon...@sunada.com)
Subject: Re: Leg Humper
Date: 1999/09/14

Bioso...@aol.com (Jerry Howe) wrote in
<37D698CF.405B0...@bellsouth.net>:

> By "sticking your knee up," I can only presume
> that you are suggesting that the people knee the
> dog in the chest. If that's what you meant, just
> say it, instead of beating around the bush to avoid
> criticism from people like me. That kind of crap has
> got to stop, and that's why I'm here, to help wean
> you guys off of the abuse and into the proper methods
> of dealing with behavior problems.

Jerry, I was appreciating your explanation
up until this last paragraph.

Why did you blow it?

--Matt

"dallygirl" <kwickw...@hotmail.com> said in
rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
> choke chains are outdated and barbaric in many
>cases causing more harm than good.

Back at you with flat buckle collars. These are an
incredibly abused training tool, what with the number
of handlers I see pulling back and jerking on the leash
with both hands.

It's a good thing that most of us are here because of
dogs' well-being and not an agenda.
--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.

=============

BWEEEEAHAHAHHAAA!!!

Here's HOWER DOG LOVER pal sgt grant teebon, RAAF:

"Reliable Punishment Cycles, Different Thresholds
To Pain And Punishment, High Tolerance For
Correction, Escalation Of Correction To A Level
Where The Dog Yelps When You Punish Him,
Thus Making The Experience One Which The Dog
Will Want To Avoid In The Future," grant teeboon,
RAAF.

Here's HOWER DOG LOVER pal captain
arthur haggerty, USArmy K-9 Corps:

captain arthur haggerty SEZ: "A CHIN CHUCK"
Makes A ResoundingSound Distraction: "When
You Chuck The Dog The Sound Will Travel Up
The Mandible To The Ears And Give A Popping
Sound To The Dog."

lying frosty dahl writes:

"Get a stick 30- or 40-inches long. You can have a
helper wield the stick, or do it yourself. Tougher, less
tractable dogs may require you to progress to striking
them more sharply.

With your hand on the collar and ear, say, 'fetch.'

Immediately tap the dog on the hindquarters with the
stick. Repeat "fetch" and pinch the ear all the way to
the dummy.

Repeat, varying how hard you hit the dog,

Now you are ready to progress to what most
people think of as force-fetching: the ear pinch.

Make the dog's need to stop the pinching so urgent
that resisting your will fades in importance.

but will squeal, thrash around, and direct their
efforts to escaping the ear pinch

You can press the dog's ear with a shotshell
instead of your thumb;

even get a studded collar and pinch the ear against that

Say "fetch" while pressing the dummy
against its lips and pinching its ear.

if the dog still does not open its mouth,
get out the shotshell.

Try pinching the ear between the metal casing
and the collar, even the buckle on the collar.

Persist! Eventually, the dog will give in"

==============

"The Koehler Method of Dog Training"
Howell Book House, 1996"

Koehler On Correcting The Housebreaking Backslider.

"If the punishment is not severe enough, some of these
"backsliders" will think they're winning and will
continue to mess in the house. An indelible impression
can sometimes be made by giving the dog a hard
spanking of long duration, then leaving him tied by
the mess he's made so you can come back at twenty
minute intervals and punish him again for the same
thing. (Dogs are REALLY stupid. J.H.)

In most cases, the dog that deliberately does this
disagreeable thing cannot be made reliable by the
light spanking that some owners seem to think is
adequate punishment. It will be better for your dog,
as well as the house, if you really pour it on him."

"Housebreaking Problems:

"The Koehler Method of Dog Training"
Howell Book House, 1996"

Occasionally, there is a pup who seems determined to
relieve himself inside the house, regardless of how
often he has the opportunity to go outside. This dog
may require punishment. Make certain he is equipped
with a collar and piece of line so he can't avoid
correction.

When you discover a mess, move in fast, take him to
the place of his error, and hold his head close enough
so that he associates his error with the punishment.
Punish him by spanking him with a light strap or
switch. Either one is better than a folded newspaper.

It is important to your future relationship that you
do not rush at him and start swinging before you get
hold of him.

When he's been spanked, take him outside. Chances
are, if you are careful in your feeding and close
observation, you will not have to do much punishing.

Be consistent in your handling.

To have a pup almost house-broken and then force
him to commit an error by not providing an opportunity
to go outside is very unfair. Careful planning will
make your job easier.

The same general techniques of housebreaking apply
to grown dogs that are inexperienced in the house.

For the grown dog who was reliable in the house and
then backslides, the method of correction differs
somewhat. In this group of "backsliders" we have the
"revenge piddler." This dog protests being alone by
messing on the floor and often in the middle of a bed.

The first step of correction is to confine the dog
closely in a part of the house when you go away, so
that he is constantly reminded of his obligation. The
fact that he once was reliable in the house is proof
that the dog knows right from wrong, and it leaves
you no other course than to punish him sufficiently
to convince him that the satisfaction of his
wrongdoing is not worth the consequences. If the
punishment is not severe enough, some of these
"backsliders" will think they're winning and will
continue to mess in the house.

An indelible impression can sometimes be made
by giving the dog a hard spanking of long duration,
then leaving him tied by the mess he's made so you
can come back at twenty minute intervals and punish
him again for the same thing.

In most cases, the dog that deliberately does this
disagreeable thing cannot be made reliable by the
light spanking that some owners seem to think is
adequate punishment.

It will be better for your dog, as well as the house,
if you really pour it on him.

---------------------

AIN'T GOT NO AGENDAS HERE, SEE??

"Loop the lead (it's basically a GIANT nylon or leather
choke collar) over his snarly little head, and give him a
stern correction" --Janet Boss
http://tinyurl.com/5m6ppt

"J1Boss" <j1b...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040324071828...@mb-m18.aol.com...

He was next to me and I could see his neck
muscles pulsing. He didn't even blink an eye.
Janet Boss

"sionnach" <rhyfe...@msn.com> wrote in message
news:c3qi15$2biuoh$1...@ID-45033.news.uni-berlin.de...

> "J1Boss" <j1b...@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:20040323173916...@mb-m17.aol.com...
> > I can't imagine needing anything higher
> > than a 5 with it, even with an insensitive
> > dog like a Lab.

An INSENSITIVE DOG???

> > I can't remember what model of Innotek I have, but
> > I had a pointer ignore a neck-muscle-pulsing 9.

Do you think the citronella collar is CRUEL
cause the SMELL LINGERS after the dog's
been sprayed in the face and the dog won't
know HOWE COME IT was MACED?

janet CONtinues:
> > My dogs are not human children wearing fur- they are DOGS.
> > I don't have anything against electronic bark collars, but they
> > should be used in conjunction with actually working at training
> > your dog(s).

They're DUMB ANIMALS these MENTALLY ILL LYING
DOG ABUSERS HURT INTIMIDATE and MURDER.

-------------------

LIKE THIS:

"Pudge Was So Soft That She Could And
Would Avoid A Simple Swat On The Rump
With A Riding Crop," lying frosty dahl,
discoverer of CANNIBALISM in Labradors.

--------------------

From: BethF (d...@alaska.com)
Subject: Re: to treat or not to treat
Date: 2002-01-14 12:50:27 PST

> "Jerry Howe" <jho...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
<news:8TI%7.10635$du.9...@e3500-atl1.usenetserver.com>...

> > And you jerk and choke your dogs on pronged spiked pinch
> > choke collars lock them in boxes and call that training
> > and spray Binaca in their eyes to quite their crate anxiety barking...

I dont' jerk or choke my dog (the little one is
too little yet for a pinch collar). They simply
wear pinch collars.

It prevents any jerking or choking on their part.

I do crate my dogs - the big one only at the dog
club and to travel, and the little one so he can
become accustomed to being in a crate.

He is learning to enjoy it and to use it as a place
to rest from the playing that he and Kavik do
.
I used binaca to quiet Kavik's in class whining
that disturbed the class. It would be quite difficult
to binaca a dog that is in a crate.

I did hit him in the eye accidentally, and stopped
using it at that time. Jerry, have you NEVER made
an error in training the dogs you have trained?

How many dogs have you trained exactly?
Can you list some references here - I
would like to contact some of your former
clients to get a reference or two?

------------------

AND LIKE THIS:

lyinglynn writes to a new foster care giver:
For barking in the crate - leave the leash on and
pass it through the crate door. Attach a line to
it. When he barks, use the line for a correction.-
if necessary, go to a citronella bark collar," Lynn K.

"Training is not confrontation,"Lynn K.
<except when it is>

"Unfortunately, some confrontation is necessary,
just to be able to handle the dogs. For example,
we need to crate train a dog immediately because
they are usually in need of medical care and they
are in foster homes with other dogs. It's a safety
necessity," lying "I LOVE KOEHLER" lynn.

"Training is not confrontation,"Lynn K.

"So what? Whoever said that it's right to
always not confront? We sure can try, but
a dog who knows a command and growls when
given it is certainly being confrontational".
You can't simply walk away and pretend it
didn't happen or leave it for later work in
every situation." Lynn K.

-----------------------------

AND LIKE THIS:

"Well, actually the binaca worked but after i
got him in the eye it was not a possibility to
be using that."

"Actually, the most common use of this technique
(and it is quite common) is with TABASCO sauce
either mixed with water in a spray bottle or on a rag
that you can stick in the dogs mouth instead of spraying
(after our experience I would suggest this method if I
was going to use this technique again). My dog likes
tabasco so that didnt' work for us.

Binaca was suggested as an alternative from a very
well respected dog trainer from the lower 48, however
I don't think she counted on his flailing his head in a
desperate attempt to get away from the sprayer causing
me to miss."

------------------

AND LIKE THIS:

"BethF" <d...@alaska.com> wrote in message
news:uohnj3r...@corp.supernews.com...

Maybe that's what we should do - hold back the dobie
girl so that Izzy can put Simon in his place.

--------------------

"BethF" <b...@NOT-SO-bad-dawgs-in-ak.com>
wrote in message
news:v4r8kkf...@corp.supernews.com...

Kyle, FWIW, i thought it was pretty funny,
and i often call my little dog the turd, because
he is one. Some folks think its HORRRIBLE i
would insult my dog like that so i guess its just a
matter of personality.

Kyle, the best way to teach him to stay away is to
step on him once. Seriously.

--------------

"Granted That The Dog Who Fears Retribution Will
Adore His Owner," lying "I LOVE KOEHLER" lynn.

AND LIKE THIS:

Here's tommy sorenson of sorenson's Retriever PUPPY MILL
and SHOCK COLLAR trainin SALES aka the miserable stinkin
lyin animal murderin child an spHOWES abusin anonymHOWES
active accute chronic life long incurable mental case punk
thug coward aka not so handsome, not so gentle, not so manly
jackass, not even jack morrison, aka joey finochiarrio aka
BIG DADDY aka DOGMAN HEELPIN dogs:

tommy sez:
At no time do the Monks *ever* advocate beating a
dog. A swat on the rump or a check to the chin does
*not* constitute a "beating."

And then he sez:

"I don't know how big you are, kiddo, so this may
not be as easy for you as it is for me, but use
a little "knee action," that is, as the dog goes
charging by you, just give the dog a little bop
with your knee and shin. Yep, really lean into it.

Even knock her over, if you can, but make sure to

make her think twice about rushing past you again -
- which is exactly what you want her to do.

Don't bother with scolding her, she'll get the message.

If it happens again, just REPEAT the knee action.

When she steps on your toes, just pick up your foot
abruptly and nudge her with your knee. Again, no
scolding is necessary here, so you don't have to
worry about her "over-reacting."

I don't think this is necessarily a lack of respect
for you, just a lack of training. That is, she just
needs *more* of it."

You mean like HOWE when you HOWEsbreak a dog an
you beat IT with a switch or heavy man's leather belt and
tie him next to his evil deed and return to BEAT HIM every
twenty minutes, tommy?

tommy SEZ:

"My objective is always to find a way that WORKS.
And if it is DANGEROUS behavior that I'm trying
to modify, behavior than can get the dog KILLED,
I will resort to ANYTHING to save him.

A-N-Y-T-H-I-N-G.

Okay. Call me a cruel, inhumane, abusive bastard
if you want to, but it doesn't affect me at all.
When you've saved the lives of as many dogs as I
have, you'll learn that that's the only thing that
really matters. Saving lives and making dogs become
good citizens"

"Swatting a dog on the nose is always the wrong thing to do."

> Or do you think he got off easy?

Perhaps we should just KILL HIM.

LIKE THIS:

"I used to work the Kill Room as a volunteer in
one shelter.) But their ability to set their own
schedules and duties causes a great deal of
scheduling overhead.

And it takes effort and thought to ensure that
volunteers get the meaningful experience that
they work for.

Someone has to be responsible for that
Volunteer Program, and it is best done
by a non-volunteer."

Lynn K.

----------------

"I worked with one shelter where I bathed and groomed
every adoptable dog on intake. I frankly felt that the
effort/benefit equation was not balanced for some of the
older/ill poodle/terrier mixes we got in badly matted condition.

Should I have refused to groom them?

Or even more pertinent - I was one of the people who
had to make the euthanasia decisions at that shelter."

Lynn K.

----------------

AND LIKE THIS:

I'll be you've never had to put down litters of
beautiful labrador puppies? If you had did, maybe
you'd be singing a different tune?

"Actually, have held them for the tech to euth, and
put their bodies in the trash bag and in the freezer
for the trash company to come and dispose of.

No different tune," ~Emily
~emily is a vivisectionist for a med research laboratory.

------------------

AND LIKE THIS:

"After Numerous Training Classes, Behavioral
Consultations, And Hundreds Of Dollars In Vet
Bills, I Killed My Dalmatian Several Years Ago
Due To Extreme Dog-Aggressiveness," mustang sally.

"I'll bet you don't know a thing about me.
I volunteered as assistant to the euthanasia
tech at our local shelter for a while, and
I know a bit about overpopulation and unwanted
animals.

This however has nothing at all to do with
responsible breeders, because responsible
breeders don't contribute to that problem,"
Mustang Sally.

Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2001
Subject: Re: shock collars

Sally Hennessey <greyho...@ncweb.com> wrote in message
news:b8m1dtsv6vuiblo63...@4ax.com...

Aside from being incredibly offensive and self-
righteous, this post shows and absence of knowledge
in the differences in dogs' temperaments, or perhaps
a lack of ability to perceive same.

The fact that you, Alison, have never met a dog to
whom corrections and discomfort, even pain, were
unimportant does not mean that such dogs do not exist.

What it means is that you don't know as much about
dogs as you think you do, and you surely don't know
a damn thing about Harlan or anyone else's dog here.

I had a Dalmatian that would instigate fights with
one of her housemates; that dog had no fear or
anything, and pain incurred during a fight meant
nothing to her.

I know that that dog is not unique, and I'm sure many
people here can tell similar stories. The fact that
you, Alison, continue to say things to people such as
what you said to Theresa about causing her dog to
suffer (at least I guess that's what you meant by
"you cause your dog suffers" - - must be the King's
English you guys talk about over there) means that
you are an ignorant, arrogant, insensitive person
who is not worth further notice.
Sally Hennessey

"Sally Hennessey" <greyho...@ncweb.com> wrote in message
news:54nuetsqgkhp26qqv...@4ax.com...

Nope. No more than you'd convince Patch that
prongs and e-collars, in the right hands, are not
intrinsically abusive; or that dogs trained properly
with prongs or e-collars are not fearful, in pain, or
intimidated; or that any one of us here knows our
own dogs and their reactions better than someone
who has never seen them or us...hmmm.

I'm starting to see some similarities here.

Sally Hennessey

---------------

Here's janet's PARTNER:

"The actual quote is misleading when taken out of context,"

sinofabitch writes:

> > What I have said- repeatedly - is that he
> > took posts from two different people,

No, there was ONLY WON quote.

> > took pieces of them out of context,

Of curse. QUOTED. You wanna see it in context?

> > cobbled them together,

No. There was WON DIRECT QUOTE.

> > then added his own words:

"Neatly," and "Smartly."

> > and a fake signature.

"sinofabitch" instead of sionnach.

> > Which is exactly what he did.

INDEEDY. That's HOWE COME you deny it.

> > The actual quote is misleading

That so?

> > when taken out of context,

We'd been talkin abHOWET beatin the dog with a shoe...

> > and Jerry's faked "quote"

The WON sinofabitch totally DENIES.

> > is downright meaningless.

Only if you're a MENTAL CASE.

Here's Jerry's version

"I Dropped The Leash, Threw My
Right Arm Over The Lab's Shoulder,
Grabbed Her Opposite Foot With My
Left Hand, Rolled Her On Her Side,
Leaned On Her, Smartly Growled Into
Her Throat And Said "GRRRR!" And
Neatly Nipped Her Ear," sinofabitch.

Here's yours:

"I dropped the leash, threw my
right arm over the Lab's shoulder,
grabbed her opposite foot with my
left hand, rolled her on her side,
leaned on her, said "GRRRR!" and
nipped her ear.
--Sara Sionnach

"The actual quote is misleading when taken out of context"

See?

Here's HOWER DOG LOVER PAL an janet's
REAL LIFE IN PERSON "students" paul an Muttley:

Subject: Muttley: Now a question of Life or Death
"Paul E. Schoen" <pst...@smart.net> wrote

It is a shame that Muttley will probably be put
down (his appointment is next Wednesday),

Subject: Muttley: Now a question of Life or Death

"Paul E. Schoen" <pst...@smart.net> wrote

Hello everyone:

If you have followed some of my posts, you know
something about the ongoing story of Muttley, the
large GSD/Chow dog I have been trying to adopt
or place in a better home.

I will add a bit more history later in this post.

Last Tuesday, toward the end of Janet's obedience
class, Muttley and I had just finished fairly successfully
performing a sit/stay/come routine, and then he was
sitting by my side.

The final routine was to be a "down", which Muttley
has had some difficulty with, and frankly I have not
had the time to work with him much on that.

I was kneeling at his side, trying to hold his collar
while pushing his front legs down to the position,
while he resisted. Suddenly he lunged, knocking
me over onto the parking lot, and I lost grip of the
leash as I reflexively broke my fall.

Muttley took the opportunity to attack a young black
male Lab to my left, and it was a very brutal attack.
Janet and the instructors tried to gain control, and as
soon as I could get to my feet I grabbed the leash and
pulled him off.

That was the end of the class, and the other dog,
Bernie, was taken to an animal hospital for treatment.

When everyone had left, Janet counseled me about
what should be done about Muttley.

She said this was more than ordinary aggression,
and only intensive (and expensive) one on one
training would have any chance at working, and
in any case, he was not suited to group training.

She advised me that Muttley could be dangerous,
and she recommended that he be euthanized.

"They can't all be saved".

<snip>
--------------

BWEEEAAAHAAAHAAA~!~!~!

Subject: Muttley: Now a question of Life or Death
"Paul E. Schoen" <pst...@smart.net> wrote

<snip>

If I did not have to worry about my cat, I would
probably keep him, and I am certain I could avoid
any more dangerous episodes. I probably would
not have taken him to obedience classes at this time
if that was not such a difficult issue, and if people
here had not essentially shamed me into doing so.

Then he would only be a bratty dog with a mind of
his own, but he would not have been identified as
dangerous.

--------------------------

BWEEEAAAHAHAHAHAAAA!!!

Here's HOWER DOG LOVER PAL an janet's
REAL LIFE IN PERSON "student" paul:

#2 - 6/05/07

>> When I was training him under Janet's supervision
>> I was instructed to give it a ? firm yank as a correction.

> I advised you to use a prong collar, not give firm
> yanks on a chain choke collar. I hate the things.

>> She was able to get his attention with
>> just a quick tug, but I had to yank on it
>> hard enough to lift him off his feet to get
>> him to respond. Looking back now, I think
>> it was based on his fear, which he had for
>> her (as an unknown), but not for me
>> (whom he had learned to trust).

> He wasn't afraid of me. He knew I was a
> confident trainer. Fear has no place in dog
> training, as I told you THEN.

> Janet

It seems to me that applying stern corrections, by
popping a choker chain, prong collar, or whatever,
is a way to ensure compliance by instilling a fear
of further punishment.

Sure, if it is administered very consistently
by a confident trainer, the dog soon learns
to obey. There was no positive reinforcement,
so what remains is negative.

Also, I recall the time you were going to show me
how I could get Muttley to take his rawhide treat
from me without lunging for it. When you offered

it to him, he refused to take it. This IMHO is likely
a fear behavior.

Things have changed a lot since then, and I have
learned a lot, and Muttley has settled down quite
a bit. I probably still give him too much freedom
to think on his own, but that's just my way of
doing things, and that's probably not going to
change much. He may never win an obedience
medal, but I don't think he is dangerously out
of control, either.

Paul and Muttley

----------------

"I thought I was told that the way to get the dog to go
down was to make him sit and then step on the leash.
That was awkward and didn't seem to work.

I will confess that I only tried the "down" position
once or twice at home, and I also often used it
instead of "Off" when I wanted him to stop
jumping on me or elsewhere I didn't want him to be.

I had to give him corrections every few seconds,
and also just about kick him, to keep him at my
left side.

Muttley is really a very sweet and loving dog, but
he needs more socialization with other dogs. However,
it is very likely that I will have him put down in a week."

Subject: Muttley: Now a question of Life or Death
"Paul E. Schoen" <pst...@smart.net> wrote

It is a shame that Muttley will probably be put
down (his appointment is next Wednesday),

-----------------------

THAT'S quite a SUCCESS STORY, ain't it, paulie?

BWEEEAAAHAAAHAAA~!~!~!

HERE'S HOWE COME:

Subject: Re: redirected aggression
Date: 4/11/07

"Janet Boss" <ja...@bestfriendsdogobedience.com> wrote in message
news:janet-730AB8....@news.individual.net...

It seems I have been dealing with this a bit lately.
Dog to dog and dog to person,, with dogs who are
obviously overstimulated by what's in front of them.

What's in front of them varies from people at the door
to dogs in their path or directly in their face. The dogs
in question all have very poor self control.

I have dog(s) with not-so-great-natural self control,
so it's something we constantly work on. We don't
have redirected stuff going on, because we have enough
obedience to avoid it.

While I know that's the big answer for the dogs in
question as well, I'm curious what things people have
found useful to redirect/focus/gain attention from
drivey dogs or just very distracted of over-the-top dogs.

We're having success with my recommendations, but I'm
always open to something novel that may be the hot ticket.
--
Janet Boss
www.bestfriendsdogobedience.com

-------------------------

BWEEEAAAHAAAHAAA~!~!~!

"dallygirl" <kwickw...@hotmail.com> said in
rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
> choke chains are outdated and barbaric in many
>cases causing more harm than good.

Back at you with flat buckle collars. These are an
incredibly abused training tool, what with the number
of handlers I see pulling back and jerking on the leash
with both hands.

It's a good thing that most of us are here because of
dogs' well-being and not an agenda.
--
--Matt. Rocky's a Dog.

=============

SEE??

We AIN'T GOT nodoGdameneD agendas here, do we <{}: ~ ( >

Human_And_Animal_Behaviour_Forensic_Sciences_Research_Laboratory

unread,

Sep 28, 2008, 11:45:56 AM9/28/08

HOWEDY sinofabitch you pathetic miserable stinkin rotten
pathological lyin animal murderin punk thug coward active

acute chronic life-long incurable malignant maliciHOWES

MENTAL CASE and Witch/SADIST,

"sionnach" <rhyfe...@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:6k9atvF...@mid.individual.net...

>
> "Rocky" <3d...@rocky-dog.com> wrote in message
> news:Fri9B26C85E3F645au...@rocky-dog.com...

>> I've been keeping a close eye on the FCI worlds (Maybe's mom and
>> aunt are doing very well) and saw this German team:
>> http://fciagility2008.cleanrun.com/germany-medium-team-jumpers

>>
>> While the first is not quite a Min Pin, my first thought was:

>> Zipper!!!

>>
>> Plustoo, watch to the end of the German runs, the last is very
>> entertaining and very excellent.
>

> Very fun to watch - especially that last one. What a cute pair!

Oh? You mean, LIKE THIS?:

Subject: Muttley: Now a question of Life or Death

90 From: Sionnach
Date: Mon, Oct 9 2006 1:19 am
Email: "Sionnach" <rhyfe...@msn.com>

*I* was thanking the Deity that the NCR trail
was not my choice of hiking area today!!!!

Sorry, Paul, but the gloves are now off, because if I HAD
chosen the NCR trail today - rather than another local trail-
you would have been putting ***MY*** beloved dogs at
risk of serious injury or death. ***MY*** DOGS.

What the FUCKING HELL is **WRONG** with you???

Your dog, which you have repeatedly admitted you can't
control, just made a near-lethal unprovoked attack on
another dog in obedience class, and you TOOK HIM
OUT ON THE TRAILS WHERE THERE ARE OTHER
DOGS?????

You do that again, when my dogs are around, and he attacks
one of them, you won't have to worry about having him put
down - I will either break his spine or choke him to death
right then and there.

I'm dead fucking serious, Mr. Schoen.

----------------------

SEE?

BWEEEAAAHAAAHAAA~!~!~!

> To my eyes, some rather ugly handling on the first two runs, though,

Oh, you mean, LIKE THIS?:

: From: Sionnach (rhyfe...@msn.com)
: Subject: Re: another question from me and joy?
:
: Date: 2002-04-10 19:40:33 PST
:
: "BethF" wrote:
: >
: > I don't think any of our regulars bite
: > their dogs ears to leash train them.
>
: He's repeating one of Jerry's confabulations... I did,
: once, lightly nip a seriously out-of-control, temper-
: tantruming Labrador on the ear to get her attention.

"The actual quote is misleading when taken out of context"

> "Sionnach" <rhyfe...@msn.com> wrote in message
>: news:bvtf67$106jeh$1...@ID-45033.news.uni-berlin.de...
: >
: > <yawn> Once again- that's NOT a quote
: > from any post of mine; JH "wrote" it, not me.
:
: No, that's a flat HOWET lie, sinofabich. It's a
: direct quote from YOU, with exception of TWO
: WORDS, "smartly" and "neatly."
:
: > It's quotes from two different posts, by two
: > different people -
:
: ONLY if you're SCHIZOPHRENIC, sinofabitch.
:
: > both taken out of context-
:
: YOU'RE A LIAR.
:
: We got your original post in The Puppy Wizard's Archives.
:
: You'll see your own words EXXXACTLY as QUOTED.
: And we'll likeWIZE see you DENYING your own words
: in three different ways!!!
:
: > and with extra wording added in by a third person.
:
: NO. YOU'RE A LIAR.
:
: The ONLY "extra words," SMARTLY and NEATLY,
: were INDEEDY, added by The Puppy Wizard, HOWEver
: they were NOT SIGNIFICANT, except for poetic license:
:
: You're a liar and a dog abuser and a MENTAL CASE:
:
: "When it was obvious that she had NO intention
: of paying any attention to anything but the other
: dogs (and that I was in danger of having my arm
: dislocated <G>), I didn't even think about it; I

: dropped the leash, threw my right arm over the
: Lab's shoulder, grabbed her opposite foot with
: my left hand, rolled her on her side, leaned on

: her, said "GRRRR!" and nipped her ear (not
: particularly hard- I wasn't trying to *hurt* her,
: just get her attention!)."
:
: From: Sionnach (rhyfe...@msn.com)
: Subject: Re: I dropped the leash!
: Date: 2003-12-15 07:55:16 PST
:
: > "I Dropped The Leash, Threw My Right Arm

: > Over The Lab's Shoulder, Grabbed Her Opposite
: > Foot With My Left Hand, Rolled Her On Her Side,
: > Leaned On Her, Smartly Growled Into Her Throat
: > And Said "GRRRR!" And Neatly Nipped Her Ear,"

:
: <yawn> That's not a quote written by me, kiddo.
: That's an amalgam of two different people's posts,
: with extra words added by Jerry.
:
: From: Sionnach (rhyfe...@msn.com)
: Subject: Re: another question from me and joy?
:
: Date: 2002-04-10 19:40:33 PST
:
: "BethF" wrote:
: >
: > I don't think any of our regulars bite their dogs ears
: > to leash train them.
:
: He's repeating one of Jerry's confabulations... I did,
: once, lightly nip a seriously out-of-control, temper-
: tantruming Labrador on the ear to get her attention.
:
: It had fuck-all to do with leash training though, and
: everything to do with getting through to an incredibly
: hard-headed, tough-minded, and spoiled-rotten dog
: that A. she was NOT going to physically control me
: the way she had every other female human she'd dealt
: with and B. that I was worth paying attention to.
:
: It came up in a discussion where someone else
: mentioned having nipped a terrier puppy who
: wouldn't stop play-biting. In both cases, it was a
: one-time instinctive response to an unusual situation.
:
: --------------------
:

: sinofabitch writes:
: > >> What I have said- repeatedly - is that he
: > >> took posts from two different people,

: > >> took pieces of them out of context,
: > >> cobbled them together,
: > >> then added his own words:

:
: "Neatly," and "Smartly."
:
: > >> and a fake signature.
:
: "sinofabitch" instead of sionnach.
:
: > >> Which is exactly what he did.

: > >> The actual quote is misleading
: > >> when taken out of context, and Jerry's
: > >> faked "quote" is downright meaningless.
>
: > > Here's Jerry's version

>
: > > "I Dropped The Leash, Threw My
: > > Right Arm Over The Lab's Shoulder,
: > > Grabbed Her Opposite Foot With My
: > > Left Hand, Rolled Her On Her Side,
: > > Leaned On Her, Smartly Growled Into
: > > Her Throat And Said "GRRRR!" And
: > > Neatly Nipped Her Ear," sinofabitch.

: > > Here's yours;

: > > "I dropped the leash, threw my
: > > right arm over the Lab's shoulder,
: > > grabbed her opposite foot with my
: > > left hand, rolled her on her side,
: > > leaned on her, said "GRRRR!" and
: > > nipped her ear.
: > > --Sara Sionnach

:
: BWEEEAAAHAAHAAHAHAAAA!!!!!

--------------------

"The actual quote is misleading when taken out of context"

SEE?

> especially going into the weaves, and so many front crosses....
> the middle handler didn't seem to have anything to use BUT a front cross,
> which is a bit surprising for someone at that level.

HOWE abHOWET THIS for a CROSS??:

From: "cimawr" <rhyfe...@msn.com>
Date: 30 Nov 2005 12:31:39 -0800

Subject: Re: im sick of the bitching and ive only been here a week.

ceb wrote:

> Oh. I myself usually like to know when I am offending
> someone, so as to try not to do it in the future. But to each her own.

<sigh>

It's too bad that you misread/misunderstood my use of the term
"mentally ill" and got offended, and it's too bad that you want to
keep on being offended rather than accept that you made a mistake
in your interpretation, but again:

I'm sorry, but I'm not going to stop using any term in a normal way
because one person in a group of many happens to interpret its use as
"derisive" rather than as descriptive.

Incidentally, if you'd been around a bit longer - or for that
matter, read/paid attention to any of several RECENT posts
I've made on the subject - you might have noticed that I quite
often use the phrasing "mentally ill person who has an obsession
with the NGs".

============

It's OVER, sinofabitch, you pathetic miserable stinkin

rotten lyin animal murderin punk thug coward active
acute chronic life-long incurable malignant maliciHOWES
MENTAL CASE. You can't post your LIES IDIOCY
INSANITY and ABUSE here abHOWETS nodoGdameneD

more <{}: ~ ) >

Human_And_Animal_Behaviour_Forensic_Sciences_Research_Laboratory

unread,

Sep 28, 2008, 12:08:53 PM9/28/08

HOWEDY robin nutcase, Golden Girl Goddess Of Agility /
Obedience Competition Trainin and Aggressive Doberman
Backyard Puppy Mill Breeding,

"Robin Nuttall" <rob...@mchsi.com> wrote in message
news:cDNDk.363524$yE1.109344@attbi_s21...

> sionnach wrote:
>> Very fun to watch - especially that last one. What a cute pair!
>>

>> To my eyes, some rather ugly handling on the first two runs, though,

You mean, LIKE THIS?:

Jen wrote:
> "Robin Nuttall" <robi...@mchsi.com> wrote in message
> news:txeVe.324546$x96.272690@attbi_s72...
> > Yep. Jen keeps saying, "Oh, I don't mean anything
> > negative" while continuously slamming people for
> > "cruel" methods that she can't even define.

Those who slavishly devote themselves to one type of
training and who condemn others are the poorer for it.

I clicker train. I use choke collars. I shape behaviors.
I use drive work for focus and intensity. I use pinch
collars. I use harnesses. I use food. I use positive
and negative punishment.

Some of these things I use frenquently. Some very
infrequently. I tend to focus my training in the
quadrants of positive reinforcement and negative
punishment, and am far more likely to eliminate
undesired behavior through ignoring it than any
other way.

I'll also grab my young dog by the collar, lift
her up on her back feet, and tell her to KNOCK
IT OFF in no uncertain terms when the little snot
gets into overdrive and bites me.

If you want to discuss training, discuss it here.
But be willing to listen as well as talk. And
please stop top posting.

Robn Nuttall.

----------------------

BWEEEAAAHAAAHAAA~!~!~!

> Agreed on all counts. And U.S. wins Gold in Large
> dog (Marcus Topps and Juice) and Gold in Small (Marcie and Wave)

Yeah? Here's robin's POSTED CASE HISTORY
of jerkin chokin shockin an cripplin her fear aggressive
hyperactive backyard puppy mill dogs:

From: "Robin Nuttall" <robi...@mchsi.com>
Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 13:26:20 GMT
Subject: Re: Warning about Dog Trainer

There are pullers, then there are PULLERS. Viva
is one of the former, and has learned to walk
very nicely on a loose leash. I'm convinced that
Cala is genetically incapable of walking on a
loose leash.

She's almost 18 months old now, and we have been
working on the issue since I first put a leash on
her. She's so high drive that *nothing* I do is
as reinforcing to her as pulling. I can stand still
till I keel over--she just stands there at the end
of the leash, pulling as hard as she can. I can do
sneak aways until I am dizzy, we just get yo-yo
effect ("okay, I'll pull THIS way now!).

I can clicker her for loose leashes until my thumb
falls off--and she still pulls.

A click and treat is not as reinforcing as the world
around her. Our only real solution at this point is
the pinch collar, which keeps her from totally wearing
me out, or hurting herself by actually flipping at the
end of the leash.

I have a feeling this is something that she will
only develop with age, and will come regardless
of any training I do or don't do.

And yes, I've trained many, many dogs to walk on
a loose leash, but not this one...

Robin Nuttal.

-------------

BWEEEAAAHAAAHAAA~!~!~!

HOWEDY robin,

"Robin Nuttall" <rob...@mchsi.com> wrote in message
news:UiZif.585694$_o.387608@attbi_s71...
> RhodesianRidgebacksRule wrote:
>
>>
>> Because submission is a NEGATIVE experience. Why do you believe so
>> strongly that a dog needs
>> to be submissive to be obedient??
>
> Why do you believe so strongly that submission is negative for the dog?

On accHOWENT of it makes them fearful and insecure
and causes hyperactivity and aggression like you see in
your own dogs, robin.

> Sounds to me like you don't know dogs very well.

Perhaps you missed her first post sayin she didn't
know dogs well and wants the best advice she can get?

> Most dogs are

A dog is a dog, robin.

> extremely uncomfortable with the thought of domination.

That so?

> And in in the world of dogs, heirarchy is very important.

You mean you're contradicting yourself?

> Knowing where he is on the ranking ladder is
> very important to the dog.

That's INSANE.

> If the dog is not submissive to the human, i.e.,

"Most dogs are extremely uncomfortable with the thought of domination."

> if he does not rank lower than the human, he is thrown
> into the extremely uncomfortable position of having to try to LEAD the
> human.

THAT'S INSANE, robin.

> Which causes all kinds of huge problems.

You mean on accHOWENT of dogs ABHOR
a LEADERSHIP VACCUME???

>> ws.
>
>> Hey, if wanting my dogs to be obedient without having them
>> afraid of me makes you think I'm a bit of a crackpot, I'd say
>> its because you're probably a confirmed power tripper. I'm not a control
>> freak.
>
> There's a huge difference between submission and fear,

That so, robin? You mean, kinda like this?:

From: "The Puppy Wizard" <ThePuppyWiz...@earthlink.net>
Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2004 18:23:20 GMT

Subject: Re: Thou Foul Beast, Thou Basest Worm...

HOWEDY robin,

You're a MENTAL CASE.

If you can't pupperly handle dogs you shouldn't
be takin care of them. Fancy that, you talkin
abHOWET "Thou Foul Beast, Thou Basest Worm..."

"Robin Nuttall" <robi...@mchsi.com> wrote in message
news:fWSfc.3645$0b4.11722@attbi_s51...

> I have a houseguest this weekend, Jura, a Scottish
> import Springer. And Cala (2 year old Dobe) is just
> being SO insufferable. Now mind you, she knows this
> dog, she's known him since he was a baby puppy and
> he's now a year old. But she's discovered that as
> he's a mere MALE and she's a BITCH, she can reduce
> him to quivering jelly. And she's really, really
> enjoying it.

> I'm always reminded of the scene in McCaig's Nop's
> Trials where Nop totally falls in love with the b**ch
> in the next run, and for days she spurns him in formal
> verse. Cala is telling Jura,

> "Thou foul beast, thou basest worm, thou artst scum,
> thou art not fit to lick the dung from the bottom of
> mine feet."

> All this is accompanied by extravagant facial expressions,
> typically showing each of her 42 teeth in glorious, shining
> white.

> And poor Jura is awed.

> "Oh, thou artst beauteous, might I be permitted
> to worship thou toenails?"

> Now mind you, this is TOTALLY different than what
> happens when Nell stays here. Nell, dingo-dog, 10
> years old and 30 pounds of tough, walks into this
> house and owns it. Viva tolerates her benignly (just
> like she's doing with Jura). Cala gives her a very,
> very wide berth.

> Poor Jura.

=================

> and obedience and fear. Obedience demands that you, the human, take a
> leadership position.

Oh? Is that where your SHOCK COLLAR comes in, robin?

> It means that you are team captain.

Oh? You mean like you and your "agility" dogs, robin?
Seems you've CRIPPLED a couple of your own dogs from
jerking and choking them. REMEMBER robin?

> It means that YOU, being able to read and drive the car,
> make the big decisions. It means the dog understands that
> and trusts you to do so, accepting his position as the follower.

You mean on accHOWENT of you'll jerk and
choke and choke IT if IT don't, robin?

> Pain has absolutely nothing to do with it.

Of curse not!

> You must lead. Your dog must follow. How you choose to
> lead is up to you, but you cannot NOT lead and have an effective
> relationship with your dog.

INDEED? Here's YOU "leadin" your own dogs to DEATH:

From: Robin Nuttall <robi...@mchsi.com>
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2004 19:34:18 GMT

Subject: Re: E-Collars - with Vibrator?

Gwen Watson wrote:
> Still why is that these dogs have awful manners?
> Inconsistency? Lack of common sense on the handlers
> part? Several reasons?

Depends on the handler. Some people care about good
manners, some people don't. But it's still totally
disconnected from whether the dog is a good competition
dog, which is the point.

To take it to agility, I know a lot of really top
agility competition dogs who are dog aggressive,
crate protective, etc. My own dogs are absolutely
awful beggars and counter surfers.

Obviously it doesn't bother me personally that much
because I haven't eradicated it. That doesn't mean
they are not trained to a very high level in other things.

> No real reason? Its all very interesting to me and I am sorry
> my questioning this has upset and frustrated so many. It was
> honest questions. I have always thought or been told there
> is never a bad question. It sure seems as though I have
> asked a very bad question by wanting to know how
> this is possible.

No, you've made people mad by nitpicking, overexaggerating,
going off on tangents, changing your questions, and not
bothering to read responses.

Questions are fine.

Not liking the answer and getting combative,
incoherent, and defensive is not so fine.

From: Robin Nuttall <robi...@mchsi.com>
Date: Wed, 03 Dec 2003 04:27:24 GMT
Subject: Re: If you HAD to re-home your dog(s)...

Both my girls would go back to their co-owner.

Viva, despite, or rather because, of her issues,
could go to almost anyone who could give her a
safe, calm environment.

Because of her very bad early start, she has a
real need to be bonded and have a human she can
count on.

Cala would be a different matter. She would need
an experienced working home--someone who knows
how to direct and channel drive without overuse
of correction.

A wimp would turn her into a frustrated and dangerous
dog. Someone who wanted to throw their weight around
and who was too heavy with corrections might also well
end up with a dangerous dog--she's got way too much
fight drive to back down if pushed.

Fortunately my co-owner is smart and could probably
find somewhere quite suitable for both of them.
Robin Nuttall.

> > Also, I think that the process of "withholding" a reward

Withholding rewards can cause aggression,
seizures, phobias of all sorts and OCD'S.

"Despite Skinner's clear denunciation of "negative
reinforcement" (1958) NEARLY EVERY LEARNING
THEORY model involves the USE OF PUNISHMENT.
Of curse, Skinner has never to my knowledge, demonstrated
how we escape the phenomenon that an expected reward not
received is experienced as a punishment and can produce
extensive and persistent aggression," (Azrin et al, 1966).

> > that resulted in the decrease of a behavior

Witholding rewards increases anxiety which would
increase the behavior or cause the dog to throw
mindless meaningless unthinking random behaviors
to elicit the treat.

"Postitive emotions arising in connection
with the perfection of a skill, irrespective
of its pragmatic significance at a given
moment, serve as the reinforcement. IOW,
emotions, not outside rewards, are what
reinforces any behavior," Ivan Pavlov.

> > would probably more accurately be accounted
> > for by the *extinction* process.

That's so confusing to me I don't see how a dog
can figure it out especially when two or three
of you can't agree on what's going on with all
this alphabet soup.

Extinction is best facilitated by increasing
excitation or DRIVE and briefly alternately
(e.g. randomly presented non physical) distracion
instantly followed by prolonged (5-15 seconds)
and intermittently thereafter non physical praise
before the action is manifest and resume repeating
the process till you've successively - successfully
conditioned the subject's ability to NOT engage that
THOUGHT through NON fulfillment

It's EZ. Takes a little sense of timing, a confident
gently tone, and consistent tempo, IOW, Pavlovian
conditioning.

Should take four repetitions with four different
stimuli in four different environments to EXTINGUISH
ANY BEHAVIOR.

"...all the highest nervous activity, as it manifests
itself in the conditional reflex, consists of a continual
change of these three fundamental processes -- excitation,
inhibition and disinhibition." Ivan P. Pavlov

> Here's a way I use P- in its classic sense.

Is that P as in punishment praise or poo poo?

> Cala loves agility.

Most dogs do. But your dogs "love it" because
they're hyperactive and this vents their anxiety.
How can you "compete" in agility if you got a
dog aggressive bitch who won't even heel after
a year and a half of jerking choking shocking
bribing intimidating crating and ignoring???:

From: "Robin Nuttall" <robi...@mchsi.com>
Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 13:26:20 GMT
Subject: Re: Warning about Dog Trainer

I can clicker her for loose leashes until my thumb
falls off--and she still pulls.

I have a feeling this is something that she will
only develop with age, and will come regardless
of any training I do or don't do.

And yes, I've trained many, many dogs to walk on
a loose leash, but not this one...

Robin Nuttal.

> It's very highly reinforcing for her.

You mean when she ATTACKS you because she
gets lots of treats and praise. Do you suppose that's
what's caused your dog's SEPARATION ANXIETY?:

From: Robin Nuttall <robi...@mchsi.com>
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 15:47:17 GMT
Subject: Re: Crating/Caging: What constitutes abuse?

J1Boss wrote:
> Sally wrote:
> A guest/foster dog who just needs to chill out.
> A dog who's so wound up that they just can't seem
> to stop themselves, and I need to do something -
> like eat or shower or breathe.

Cala is one of those puppies who, when she's tired, just
gets more and more and more and more wound up until she's
on the verge of total meltdown. While it's amusing to see
her tearing through the house on warp speed, it's advantageous
to everyone, including her, if she's crated when she gets
totally wound like that.

I cheerfully tell her she's a good puppy and take her to
her crate. Within 2 minutes she's usually sound asleep.
Keeps me from strangling her, and all she really needs at
that point is to be removed from stimulus so she can crash.
And she does.

> No - don't say that - the crate bashers won't be have
> any reason to call us thugs! I do use crates forever
> though - in my car and at training class and shows.

Yep. Crates are good places. Crates are safe, and
crates take you to fun places and to do fun things.

> > Crates may be helpful to confine dogs with separation
> > anxiety, although many dogs with SA try to escape the
> > crate. Crates are safe places for dogs to hide when
> > visiting children annoy them. Crates are excellent
> > places for dogs to be confined when ill or injured.

Viva has some separation anxiety issues. It's difficult
for her to be uncrated when I'm not home. She feels she
must then take responsibility for the whole house as well
as anything and everything she may see outside.

It's a lot of pressure for her. If I leave her uncrated,
she's always a bit frantic when I get home. If I leave
her crated, she only has responsibility for her own space
and doesn't feel she has to guard the entire house and yard.

She is much calmer and happier being crated while I'm gone.
She'll never have the run of the house when I'm not home
because *she* doesn't like it. Robin Nuttall.

Pavlov Told Us So 100 Years Ago. Sam Corson,
Pavlov's Last Student Demonstrated At UofOH
Oxford, That Rehabilitation Of Hyperactive
Dogs Can Easily And Readily Be Done Using TLC.
Tender Loving Care Is At The Root Of The
Scientific Management Of Doggys.

> But she had a lot of impulse and drive
> control challenges when she was younger.

That so? You mean she was and still is hyperactive,
oppositional, fear aggressive even with opposite sex
dogs and turns on you when FRUSTRATED as per your
posted case history.

You've never finished those "control challenges",
not with EITHER dog especially Cala the one you
TRAINED for three years despite having raised her
since DAY ONE. Your dogs both have SEPARATION
ANXIETY amongst many other PROBLEMS.

Like this:

From: Robin Nuttall <robi...@mchsi.com>
Date: Sat, 29 Mar 2003 00:29:21 GMT

Subject: Re: Doggie temperament test

Suja wrote:
> Robin Nuttall wrote:
>> Oh My. Whoever thought of this thing is an idiot.
>> Many of the STOP TEST AGGRESSIVE DOG
>> responses are exactly the responses you want to have in a high drive,
>> active, curious dog.
>
>> I got so many of those (pretty much all that way) for Cala that I stopped
>> taking the test. And she's
>> not aggressive.
>
> Well, I don't agree with that stupid test at all,
> but Cala isn't what I'd call a Newbie dog, is she?

Nope. She's not. She's bred to her working heritage.
But that test doesn't talk about any of that. It
just makes blanket statements.

And FWIW, I full well realize the responsibility I
took on in breeding the litter I did, with the type
of working temperament I was looking for, and got.

Heck no, she's not a beginner dog, but I would never
have placed any dog out of this litter with a beginner
owner.

Robin Nuttall.

From: Robin Nuttall <robi...@mchsi.com>
Date: Mon, 03 Feb 2003 16:01:45 GMT

Subject: Re: Shock and awe

shelly wrote:
> In news:3E3EA77C...@mchsi.com,
> Robin Nuttall <robi...@mchsi.com> typed:
>> My dogs don't get to make discipline decisions.
>> My dogs get to be nice with other dogs, period.
>> If they're not nice, they stay on lead until
>> they can learn to be nice.
>
> exactly. that goes for being the Dog Police and for being
> obnoxious brats who pick on other dogs. i don't tolerate
> either of those behaviors within my own pack or between my
> two and other dogs.

This is something I'm acutely attuned to.

Part of it is owning Dobermans, who have a bad rep anyway.
Part of it is that I know for a fact that my puppy's sire
is profoundly dog aggressive. It was the one thing I did
NOT like about using him, and the plusses outweighed the
minuses. But I watch Cala like a hawk. Being able to go
to offlead parks has actually helped, as she's gotten to
meet a large number of dogs of all shapes and sizes.

But our dog park is different than many in that it's a
huge area with trails cut through brush--mob mentality
doesn't often come into it. Robin Nuttall.

> Namely she would sometimes get too excited,

And bite you:

From: "Robin Nuttall" <robi...@mchsi.com>
Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 04:00:43 GMT
Subject: Re: Does your dog do this?

"Andrea" <andrea.sto...@NOSPAM.verizon.net> wrote in message
news:dMB0b.13637$_P1....@nwrddc01.gnilink.net...

> The "sorry" look and licking is appeasment behavior.
> Dogs to it to avoid retribution, not because they
> really understand how to apologize. Really, you
> should just teach her some bite inhibition so that
> you don't get hurt, and she doesn't have to worry.

I totally agree, but with some dogs that's far
easier said than done.

Cala is finally showing signs of trying to keep
her teeth to herself, and it's been a constant
battle since she was a baby puppy. She's now 17
months old.

I have often been a total mass of bruises from
her releasing overdrive into a nip. Not that
she's ever full-out bitten me, but trust me,
those nips and pinches can be extremely painful.

The higher drive the dog is, the more difficult
it can be to deal with the issue. Robin Nuttall.

> go over the top and vent drive by biting/nipping at me.

Because you are withholding treats choking shocking
intimidating and crating your highly driven working
dogs as per you posted case history which I've spent
the past couple of hours (maybe ten or so...) just
researching your ETHICKAL BREEDING program and your
high drive backyard bred genetically DEFECTIVE
"working dogs" which you'll ONLY SELL to show homes.

Interesting, compelling, sickening stuff, every bit
of it. You should be ASHAMED to post here ever again.
I had to force myself to quit with only the tip of
the iceberg uncovered thus far reading only posts
mentioning your dog Carla.

I had no idea you were a backyard breeder too!

You even bred your DEFECTIVE back yard bred bitch
to a DOG AGGRESSIVE sire to get the QUALITIES you
wanted, yet you still couldn't train Carla to come
or heel by 18 months of age, nor PASS the CGC!!!
despite having bred her from your own highly driven
working stock bitch.

And you got the NERVE to say you don't even "BELIEVE"
in the validity of the CGC test BECAUSE YOUR dogs
CONSISTENTLY FAIL TO PASS IT.

AND THEN YOU DISCOVERED your BACKYARD
BRED "STUD" WASN'T GENETICALLY HEALTHY
and being the ETHICKAL BREEDER you are, you had
to CONSULT your business partner who told you to give
up on your backyard ETHICKAL BREEDER project seein
as THEY GOT STUNG BIG TIME by you and your ignoramus shenanagains.

Did you notify your "WORKING SHOW HOME" PUPPY CUSTOMERS?:

From: Robin Nuttall <robi...@mchsi.com>
Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2004 02:08:34 GMT
Subject: Re: Breeders suck...
Shelly & The Boys wrote:

> Then another friend who recently had a litter had
> mentioned to me that she'd love to see one of her
> pups go to me. I would've LOVED to have a pup
> from her litter. However, for my next pup, I a)
> want a bitch and b) want to wait at least 4 years
> before acquiring another dog so that Bodhi gets
> all training & attention that he should.

> <sigh> All the work to get *into* the breed,
> but apparently once you're in, you're gold. :-)

Yep, once good breeders figure out that not only
do you give your dogs a great home, but you do
actually work with them and title them, you pretty
much walk on water.

And if you're willing to keep a bitch
intact for awhile, you are God.

But I must admit that now that I'm going to spay Cala-
-a mutual decision between myself and my co-owner after
a rather major health problem showed up in her sire's
line--that I'm looking forward to not having any new
dogs for several years.

Maybe it's because Cala is enough to turn anybody's hair gray!

I plan to wait until she's at least 5 or 6 before
thinking about another puppy. That will put Viva
at 10 and probably near/at retirement, and Cala
should be well settled in and hopefully we'll be
a good team by then.

That said, I've already got my eye on a potential
breeding that should happen several years down the
road... Robin Nuttall.

> Obviously this was a no-go.

Seems your entire posted case history 'JUST SEZ NO!'.

IN FACT, it rather makes you LOOK like a lying
dog abusing punk thug coward as we've SEEN and
we AIN'T EVEN GOT STARTED building your GALLOWS
with your own written words, Robin.

> However, I found that a hard correction (P+)
> tended to ramp her up even higher.

Why would you need to HURT a highly driven working
dog force IT to do what he was SELECTIVELY BRED to
do? Wouldn't you think that'd make your selective
breeding program a MOCKERY and a HOAX, Robin?

Or would you prefer to call it a CRUEL JOKE
on all them puppy customers you STUNG by being
a ETHICKAL BREEDER and breeding to a known dog
aggressive "stud" (but that's IRRELEVENT as all
temperament and behavior problems are CAUSED
BY MISHANDLING not BREEDING) who just happend
to turn out to have a CONGENITAL DISEASE that
you OVERLOOKED in your ETHICKAL BREEDERS PROGRAM?

Nice goin Golden Girl Goddess!

> She has a very high fight drive

You mean she PAINICKS when you hurt and intimidate her.

> and will actively move into a physical correction.

You mean she TRIES TO ATTACK you so you got to HANG
HER like you done to that fear aggressive Irish Wolfhound
in your "class" and jerked and choked IT like how you
do your own fear aggressive hyperactive out of control
factory DEFECTIVE bitches.

> And not only that, but P+ corrections actually put
> her even higher into drive, not something I want
> to happen in this case.

INDEED? How did you determine that?

> So instead, I started simply taking her
> to her crate when she bit me.

But of course:

Those who slavishly devote themselves to one type of
training and who condemn others are the poorer for it.

I clicker train. I use choke collars. I shape behaviors.
I use drive work for focus and intensity. I use pinch
collars. I use harnesses. I use food. I use positive
and negative punishment.

I'll also grab my young dog by the collar, lift
her up on her back feet, and tell her to KNOCK
IT OFF in no uncertain terms when the little snot
gets into overdrive and bites me.

If you want to discuss training, discuss it here.
But be willing to listen as well as talk. And
please stop top posting. Robn Nuttall.

> I was withdrawing her ability to

TO BITE YOU.

> do a very highly reinforcing task--agility.

Ummm, wasn't THAT what makes her BITE YOU?

If this agility GAME is SO REINFORCING why can't
you train her to do the tables and stop line and
A frame and not attack you when you hurt her for
being OBSTINATE and SKITZY in the ring?

> Further, I was doing it in a way that did
> not put her any higher in drive.

You mean hyperactive oppositional and aggressive
when you jerk choke shock ignore and withhold
attention affection rewards trust and respect.

> She learned that biting/nipping resulted
> in the fun stuff stopping.

You mean the jerking choking shocking and withholding.

> She spent enough time in the crate to
> safely come down out of drive,

You mean she felt safe and could relax again.

> then I would take her out and we would do something simple

Or she'd ATTACK you again.

> and praise for being in drive without being over the top.

You mean you praise her for BEING HYPERACTIVE and
NOT ATTACKING you again. Perhaps you should use PREY
DRIVE as well?

You got a volatile dog there. Better watch out
your SHOCK COLLAR don't spark an explosion. I'd
be PREYIN to the Golden Girl Goddess if I was you.

> It's been very effective.

Do tell?

"Robin Nuttall" <robi...@mchsi.com> wrote in message
news:yX1Hb.664461$Tr4.1669501@attbi_s03...

> sionnach wrote:
> >>I wish I didn't have otherleftitis.

> > "Otherleftitis" -I love it!

> > Just out of curiosity... and this question's
> > to everyone who trains for tables, esp. Robin:
> > do you train an automatic down on the table,
> > with a quick pull up into a sit if needed- or
> > do you train the table as two seperate things-
> > first get on the table, then sit or down?
>
> With Viva I trained the latter--she was my first
> agility dog and I had less than adequate instruction
> during her foundation, and have been paying for it
> since, especially on obstacles and the table.

You mean you can't train her despite your shock and
choke devices and slices of Processed American Cheese
Food Substitute cut evenly into 25 equal pieces.

> However, I have retrained her to do a down first
> and it's helping, but swear to Dog the judges in
> this area request a sit 75% of the time and a down
> only 25%! The down is now mostly adequate, the sit
> still sucks twinkies.

Perhaps you should try a piece of liver between
your lips so she'll at least pay attention when
you speak to her?

> With Cala I've trained "get up on the table and lay down."
> But even though I've done that from day one, I'm still
> having some trouble with it--when she's in drive she
> imitates her mother and stands there screeching like a
> banshee instead of doing her job.

That's because you jerk and choke and shock her.
She also gets skitzy on the stop line on the ramp.
That's the other obstacle you got to her her to do.

She barks and screams at you just like Susan Fraser's
dog was shrieking on line and nearly got himsel
DISQUALIFIED from entering any more trials for the
same reason.

> I usually turn my back on her and that helps.

Of course. Works EVERY TIME, don't it.

> Sure would be nice to get a fast down on the
> table but I'm sure not having much success...

You're not having any "success" because you HURT
your dogs, Robin. You've crippled two of them with
so called Woblers's SYNDROME from jerking and
choking them and Viva's got bi-lateral "arthritis" in her
front legs (is THAT PREREQUISITE for BACKYARD
BREEDING STOCK, Robin?) and your Cala nearly broke
her back and "dislocated" her rib when she took a fall off
the ramp she balks on for the same reason you can't even
train Cala to heel after having her from DAY ONE till 18
months despite all your pain fear force and intimidation TOOLS:

From: Robin Nuttall <robi...@mchsi.com>
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 17:23:03 GMT
Subject: Re: beginning agility

Rocky wrote:
> Robin Nuttall said in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
> Oh yeah - when Friday's barking *at* me, I might as
> well walk off the course. Naturally, I don't because
> I'm going to use that expensive training time to the max.

Heh. And when Cala is in that mode walking off is the only solution.

>> I'm thrilled for both of you that your dogs have instant
>> and complete off switches. That's exceedingly rare.
> Assuming there was no sarcasm in there - thank you!

Nope, no sarcasm. :)

> Though only one of my dogs has an instant off (and on) switch,
> and I'm doing whatever I can to exploit it while not ruining it.
> It's funny, though - Friday will do a nanosecond down on the
> agility table or at the line, but do you think that I can get
> him to do it away from a trial situation?

And I can get super fast downs everywhere
BUT the table. With both dogs.

I've been working the table a lot more with both
dogs, trying to help the issue, but it's definitely
a weak spot, and since I have the same issue with
both dogs (slow sits and downs, barking) it's got
to be a fault in my training. Robin Nuttall.

From: Robin Nuttall <robi...@mchsi.com>
Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2004 17:04:36 GMT
Subject: Re: Opinions please...sorry, got long...

Sionnach wrote:
>> No, humans should not be allowed to do anything,
>> anywhere, at any time. However, if, say, I have
>> my dog at the vet, and the vet is trying to do
>> something with me supervising the dog, I'd be
>> extremely surprised and upset if the dog protested
>> in my presence--they know that's not allowed
>> and for those moments the vet becomes an extension
>> of me. (I can do this, I'm saying the vet can do
>> this, so deal with it). However, in my absence, I
>> wouldn't be surprised if a vet trying to do something
>> with my dog did elicit a growl. It's never happened
>> yet but you never know.
>
> With my three- Brenin would never growl at the vet
> or a tech, with or without me. He's very unhappy if
> seperated from me, and will try to get back to me,
> but he's compliant if I've indicated he should go with
> someone.

> He also DOES NOT bite, even in situations where nobody
> would have blamed him if he had- for instance, when someone
> he barely knew scared the heck out of him by suddenly
> grabbing him from behind, picking him up, and flipping
> him over.
>
> Rocsi will growl if caused pain (for example, when the
> vet was palpating a sore foot), but it's not a threat,
> merely a communication- she doesn't show teeth or make
> any attempt to use them, just grumbles & tries to pull
> away. I don't have any qualms about letting her be
> handled away from me, either.

Well yeah, I'd of course not object if my dog yelped
or growled in pain, though I've never had one growl.

Dobermans tend to be so stoic and so silent that it's
actually a problem--they will NOT show signs of pain
at the vets even if you practically twist their affected
part off their body. So the vet is going, "gee, she seems
fine!" and once I get them home they won't even put a foot
down.

Cala is the first dobe I've ever had that is what
I call a Drama Queen, and man, she plays it to the
hilt. Banged her foot on something the other night
and had a barely perceptible lump. Acted like she
was going to die, limped dramatically until the
next morning when she would alternate limping
pitifully with charging full speed after her ball.

Then she'd remember, "oh, I'm supposed to be hurt!"

From: Robin Nuttall <robi...@mchsi.com>
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2004 16:07:48 GMT
Subject: Re: beginning agility

Gwen Watson wrote:
> Robin Nuttall wrote:
>> I'm thrilled for both of you that your dogs have
>> instant and complete off switches.

>> That's exceedingly rare.
>
> Why is it that everytime someone has a different opinion
> then your own you reply in such a way? You do demonstrate
> the inability for diversity of opinions. Too often have a
> seen such remarks from you.

Gwen, it was an HONEST admiring comment. I AM thrilled
that they have instant and complete off switches. Many
people, including me, do not have dogs who are capable
of that. I am GLAD for them that they do. I think it's
got to be in some way genetic.

Viva can come out of drive somewhat quickly, but not
that fast. Cala has trouble coming out of drive at all.

I see you're off on the whacko side again today...and yes,
THAT is meant exactly the way it sounds. You have to be one
of the dumbest people I've ever interacted with on usenet,
and being as I've been here for 10 years now, that's pretty
impressive in and of itself.

*Cala had a very nasty fall off a dogwalk a couple of weeks
ago, landed on her side so hard she bounced up in the air
about 6 inches, and dislocated a rib. Luckily my acupuncturist
was actually in the building that night and was able to slip
the rib back into place.

The next week she was better but her back was now out of
place, so an acupuncture treatment fixed that up and now
she's fine! I know that Solo has issues. I wonder if you
could find an acupuncturist who would be willing to let
you just come hang out for several sessions so Solo can
get comfy, perhaps while he/she is even treating someone
else.

I know my dogs wouldn't mind as long as the other person
and dog weren't disruptive. A good acupuncturist can do
wonders for little miscellaneous ouchies like he's got.
Robin Nuttall.

Subject: Agility

She's 10.5 months old, and has had very little growth
since she was 7.5 months old--when she went into season.
It's somewhat rare for a large breed dog to have a first
season that young--it's more common for it to happen at
about 10-12 months. And she wasn't pulled in by Viva-
-Viva is going into season right now, 3 months after Cala.

So I'm curious to see whether or not Cala's growth
plates will close early. Even if they have, she's
nowhere NEAR ready mentally to do a lot of work,
much less physically.

Robin Nuttall.

From: Robin Nuttall <robi...@mchsi.com>
Date: Wed, 07 May 2003 03:17:25 GMT
Subject: Re: Teaching dogs to be calmer....

Rocky wrote:
> HolierThanThou said in rec.pets.dogs.behavior:
>> he isn't hyper like a Jack Russel, or anything.
>> He is just busy.
>
> Friday is this way as well. He has a great fast down
> and a good stay/wait, but as soon as we hit agility -
> Things Change. His down goes from fast to lightning
> fast but his stay/wait goes out the window.
> It's not that he isn't trained, obviously - he's just changed
> gears and, at this stage, I'm not going to extraordinary
> lenght to "fix" this and perhaps take the fun out of it.

You know, I'm having a lot of success teaching the stay
as an active part of the game instead of as a boring
"stay there till I say different" exercise.

So instead of asking for a sit or a down, I get Cala to
offer me one for what she wants. Sit, and you get to tug.
Down, and you get a click and a treat, etc.

I've expanded that to a game of sit and wait. (down and
wait). It's very simple. I get a VERY favored toy out.
She has learned to offer a sit. If she gets up before I'm
ready for her to, I simply remove the toy before she can
get to it.

She has to go back and sit again to get the toy. So she's
learning that waiting is merely a prelude to lots more fun!

I conclude the game with a set of commands that she knows
is going to trigger her release. For us, it's "Ready" said
in a teasing drawn out way, then "Okay! GO!!!" for a release
to grab the toy or treat or just run around like an idiot.

She's getting to LOVE the wait game! And because she's
waiting IN drive, I think she will retain it at the start
line better than a conventional stay. Robin Nuttall.

Yeah? We'd think you can use your effective
stay command when you're fighting and bribing
your dogs to hold still for a nail trimmin:

Subject: Trimming claws
Robin Nuttall Mar 30 2003,

I first click and treat for simply turning the dremel
on and having it near them, then click and treat for
holding a foot while the dremel is on, then drop the
clicker (not enough hands!) and at first treat after
each nail, weeding that to a treat after each foot,
then a treat after it's done. With Cala, who truly
does hate it, I sweeten the pot by giving her a tiny
treat as we start, then a bigger treat when we're done.

She still hates it, but will willingly hop on the
couch and will even fight (well not really fight,
you know what I mean) Viva for the prime grinding
position. Robin Nuttall.

From: Robin Nuttall <robi...@mchsi.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 22:46:35 GMT

Subject: Re: Ping Gwen (& Robin N.)
re: agility (was: I want this dog)

Gwen Watson wrote:
> Robin Nuttall wrote:
> Cala sounds wonderful Robin. I know she
> is going to give you a Mach some day!

If I don't kill her first. Viva will get her MACH long before Cala.

> How serious is this. I have never heard of it.
> Is there a way to prevent it, or is it fairly
> easy to remedy?

It can be a chronic problem. It needs rest
and specific rehabilitation

>> I know a rather alarming number of bigger
>> dogs with arthritis in their front feet-
>> -Viva has this.
>
> I am sorry to hear that. Do you notice it more
> in the winter? I forget how old lovely Viva is. 6?

Viva is 6. Part of hers is because she's missing
a tendon in one foot due to a bad injury 3 years
ago. She gets lots of supplements. Robin Nuttall.

From: Robin Nuttall <robi...@mchsi.com>
Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 01:25:06 GMT
Subject: Re: A Note to Owners of Non-Aggressive dogs and Agility

Susan Fraser wrote:
>> No. Sorry, but no. I know you kind of meant that as a
>> joke, but so often, when I say, "my dog doesn't like
>> other dogs in her face," people will say, "well, if
>> Fifi goes over there, she deserves to get bitten,"
>> or "let your dog put my dog in her place!"
>
> Yes, I totally meant it as a joke. And even though I
> read your AgileDogs post first, I see now that you do
> realize it was a joke and were just using the post
> to illustrate a point.
>
> *Of course* I do not expect your dog to teach mine
> a lesson. (And I am aghast that someone would!)

I hear it ALL the time. Many, many times when I say,
"she doesn't like other dogs in her face," I hear
"Oh, I hope she bites him, he needs to learn a lesson."
It's maddening. And yes, I was just using your post to
make a point on agiledogs. :)

> In the case of teaching puppies some manners, I have
> often felt that instead of play times with equally
> clueless peers at puppy kindergartens, it would be
> more appropriate for my pushy golden pups to have a
> group of adult dogs of various breesd and temperaments
> to interact with - to mentor to them how to
> show respect and keep an appropriate distance, etc.
> And yes, that would be 'using' the older dogs, but when
> we keep our pups on a leash and refuse to let them interact
> with various types of older dogs, how are they to learn
> appropriate behaviors within their own species?

That's exactly what I did with Cala. Cala's sire is actually
very dog aggressive. So from a tiny puppy, I made a point to
get Cala out with a variety of dogs, of all ages, shapes,
and sizes.

Some were moresubmissive than her, some were bolder.
Some put her in her place, some did not. She learned
very good dog language skills. Unfortunately, she did
get attacked at least three times when she was young.

Not in these social situations, but by a friend's bitch
who hates puppies. At first, it looked like this would
have no lasting repurcussions.

But as she's matured, Cala has become more
reactive to strange dogs.

Part genetic?

Perhaps. The good thing is, that if you just give her
(literally) five minutes, she relaxes, realizes things
are okay, and is happy to play with the other dog unless
it's truly obnoxious and pushy.

And she isn't looking for a fight--if a dog does tell
her to knock it off, she will flatten to the ground
immediately. Robin Nuttall.

You're lookin at the problemS the wrong way.

These dogs are not "high drive," they're HYPERACTIVE
from MISHANDLING.

Your "training efforts" have made them NERVEHOWES.

The "zippy zoomies" are NOT exuberance, they're ANXIETY.

The dog KNOWS you cannot HURT IT in a trial...same same
same same reason lying "I LOVE KOHELER" lynn's dog Jive
gets high scores in the ring (she trains in a ring daily), but
CANNOT BE FORCED TO WORK A SAR JOB, the same
same as Jeff Dege CAN'T TRAIN HIS OWN DOG not to
break command to attack innocent furry critters despite his
SHOCK COLLAR trained reliable come command.

BWWWWWWAHAHAHAHAAAA!!!

> "Robin Nuttall" <robi...@mchsi.com> wrote in message
> news:mtYYa.102050$YN5.71125@sccrnsc01...
> > "EmilyS" <emil...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > news:10011e64.03080...@posting.google.com...
> > > KWBrown <arfenarfNOS...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > <news:Xns93D162D2FF864ar...@130.133.1.4>...
> > > > "Robin Nuttall" <robi...@mchsi.com> wrote in
> > > > news:GKOYa.98019$YN5.69581@sccrnsc01:
> > > > > Basically if I had this dog I would take her to her
> > > > > "boundry" area for the creek--the place where she
> > > > > goes from being normal to frenzied.

> > > > > I would stop just at that line and ask for attention.
> > > > > I wouldn't command attention. Instead I would simply
> > > > > ignore any and all attempts to getto the stream, and
> > > > > wait for the dog to calm down and look at me.

> > > > > When I had focus, I would calmly release to the
> > > > > creek with a trigger word.

> > > > I think I'm going to take this approach with Storm
> > > > the next time she zooms at agility practice. I'll
> > > > bring her near the course and wait for attention
> > > > before we do anything - and become still and boring
> > > > the instant she loses focus. I don't want to shut
> > > > down all that drive, but she has *got* to pay
> > > > closer attention!
> > > > Kate
>
> > > the classic "solution" for ring zoomies is to run
> > > away and hide outside of the ring when she starts
> > > zooming. Everyone else is supposed to completely
> > > ignore her, as well.

> > > NO reinforcment.

> > > Presumably at some point, the brainz that have been
> > > leaking out of her head recede. And then she will
> > > notice "mom" is missing and she'll start looking for
> > > you rather frantically. Then someone alerts you and
> > > you come back, calling her excitedly.
>
> > Yes but that's more of a punishment. Not that it's not
> > a valuable tool, but we're talking about two different
> > things. One is asking for control before something happens
> > and rewarding control with access to the desired activity,
> > the other is reacting to a situation when it's already
> > gotten OUT of control.

> > Dogs with drive need to learn how to channel and direct
> > that drive. It's fun to watch them because it's great to
> > have a motivated dog and everyone is scared to shut them
> > down. On the other hand, you must be able to focus and
> > control that drive or you will never have a consistent
> > performer.

> > And the best way to do that is to help the DOG learn
> > how to reward himself.

> > Instead of you demanding something from him and the
> > situation continuing to escalate as you both get more
> > frenzied, you are calm and you simply wait for the dog
> > to be calm. This might be a LONG wait in some instances,
> > but you've got to do it.

> > And you have to know what you're looking for and
> > reward it *instantly* with a release to the desired
> > object/behavior.

> > So if my goal is to have attention from my dog at
> > the beginning of an agility routine, I will wait
> > for her to focus on me by looking at me for a few
> > seconds.

> > I will then release her to the equipment. As time
> > goes by, I will ask for more focus and direction.

> > Eventually I want her to be able to work with a
> > favored toy in full view, and know that she must
> > perform what I want to get it.

From: "The Puppy Wizard" <ThePuppyWiz...@earthlink.net>
Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2004 18:23:20 GMT

Subject: Re: Thou Foul Beast, Thou Basest Worm...

HOWEDY robin,

You're a MENTAL CASE.

If you can't pupperly handle dogs you shouldn't
be takin care of them. Fancy that, you talkin
abHOWET "Thou Foul Beast, Thou Basest Worm..."

"Robin Nuttall" <robi...@mchsi.com> wrote in message
news:fWSfc.3645$0b4.11722@attbi_s51...

> I'm always reminded of the scene in McCaig's Nop's
> Trials where Nop totally falls in love with the b**ch
> in the next run, and for days she spurns him in formal
> verse. Cala is telling Jura,

> "Thou foul beast, thou basest worm, thou artst scum,
> thou art not fit to lick the dung from the bottom of
> mine feet."

> All this is accompanied by extravagant facial expressions,
> typically showing each of her 42 teeth in glorious, shining
> white.

> And poor Jura is awed.

> "Oh, thou artst beauteous, might I be permitted
> to worship thou toenails?"

> Poor Jura.

A Poor Shepherd Boy And His Dog At His Masters Feet.

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