Fences - Cats - DIY?

[Gas Bag]

A friend of mine has one of these fences that's about 178cm (5'10")
tall:

http://stratco.com.au/products/fencing/types/good_neighbour/good_neighbour.asp

She wants to stop her cats getting out, and other cats getting in. I
know full well that there are numerous commercially available products
that will stop cats (along with other animals) climbing fences. I'm
sure they do work, but they're all fairly pricey, particularly if
attempting to cover a significant length of fencing. I'm now thinking
about trying a home-rigged set up. I'm considering getting a whole
heap of empty 2 Litre plastic softdrink bottles (Soda bottles to any
USA readers), then cutting off the base and neck of the bottles, then
cutting them lengthwise, then siliconing them to the tops of the fence
so the sides of the bottles "curve downwards" from the top of the
fence. I'm thinking this curved plastic will be too smooth and
slippery for a cat to get any grip with it's claws. I have no problem
with spending some time getting this to work, but I want to keep the
cost down, so spending lots of $$$ isn't happening.

I was wondering if anyone has attempted anything like this, and if
they can offer any advice. Thanks.

To any cat "lovers" out there, my friend isn't getting rid of her
cats, nor is she trapping/baiting any of the cats in her suburb.

[Bill Graham]

I have a friend who built a, "cateo" for his cats, and covered it with
chicken wire fencing, which lets in the fresh air and sunshine, but keeps
the cats from getting out. This was fairly easy and inexpensive for him to
do. and his cats love spending time out there. He can also grow flowers out
there.....

[chaniarts]

i built one of these too. 12x12x8' with lots of internal ramps. i had to
use thin plywood for the first couple of feet to keep the rattlesnakes
and coyote's out, and it had a chickenwire roof to keep the owls and
hawks out too.

[Brooklyn1]

Gas Bag wrote:
>
> She wants to stop her cats getting out, and other cats getting in.

> To any cat "lovers" out there, my friend isn't getting rid of her
> cats, nor is she trapping/baiting any of the cats in her suburb.

Anyone who cares about their cats doesn't let them out.

[dgk]

Like most absolute statements, that's nonsense. Cats enjoy being
outdoors and if we really care about our cats we want them to be
happy. Safe counts but so does happy.

Sometimes there is no option, like when you live in an apartment in a
city. But I rigged the fence in my little backyard so the cats can't
get out and I let them out whenever I'm able to - of course I must be
home.

Sure there is some risk. Maybe some critter left a hole in the fence -
raccoons and possums can do that. Maybe one will climb a tree and jump
into the next yard. I try to minimize that risk by putting Loc8tor
tags on their collars. But like any knowlegable cat owner I use
breakaway collars so even that isn't foolproof.

But they love lying on the cool earth under the evergreens, or eating
the grass or some bug. Or they just hang out on the deck and sniff the
air. Of course I don't use any pesticides or other poisons. Once or
twice a year one will catch a bird. Sometimes I'm quick enough to save
the bird. They are just so proud when they get one though. I make it
up to the birds by feeding them all winter and even putting up a
heated birdbath.

For me, the small risk that something will happen to them is more than
offset by the enjoyment they get by being "free" outside. I've had
eight cats during the 16 years that I've had this fenced in yard. Four
have died, but none because they were allowed to go out. Four are
still enjoying the yard and will do so today when I get home.

[Higgs Boson]

On Aug 17, 7:08 am, dgk <d...@somewhere.com> wrote:
> On Thu, 16 Aug 2012 20:59:00 -0400, Brooklyn1 <Gravesend1> wrote:
> >Gas Bag wrote:
>
> >> She wants to stop her cats getting out, and other cats getting in.
> >> To any cat "lovers" out there, my friend isn't getting rid of her
> >> cats, nor is she trapping/baiting any of the cats in her suburb.
>
> >Anyone who cares about their cats doesn't let them out.
>
> Like most absolute statements, that's nonsense. Cats enjoy being
> outdoors and if we really care about our cats we want them to be
> happy. Safe counts but so does happy.
>
> Sometimes there is no option, like when you live in an apartment in a
> city. But I rigged the fence in my little backyard so the cats can't
> get out and I let them out whenever I'm able to - of course I must be
> home.
>
> Sure there is some risk. Maybe some critter left a hole in the fence -
> raccoons and possums can do that. Maybe one will climb a tree and jump
> into the next yard. I try to minimize that risk by putting Loc8tor
> tags on their collars. But like any knowlegable cat owner I use
> breakaway collars so even that isn't foolproof.

***My cat specializes in losing breakaway collars with the name tags I
paid to have made. I finally gave up. He's chipped, so if he's found
and the finders have enough sense to call the local shelter, he could
potentially be located.

One thing: I was warned a few years ago to KEEP HIM INDOORS on
Halloween; black cat. So I bring him in during the day, set up food
and toilet, and don't let him out till next day.-

>
> But they love lying on the cool earth under the evergreens, or eating
> the grass or some bug. Or they just hang out on the deck and sniff the
> air. Of course I don't use any pesticides or other poisons. Once or
> twice a year one will catch a bird. Sometimes I'm quick enough to save
> the bird. They are just so proud when they get one though. I make it
> up to the birds by feeding them all winter and even putting up a
> heated birdbath.

***Hah! Me too! I saved a bird just the other day and confined it
briefly until it settled down enough to fly away. [Censored]
generations of mocking-birds have been teasing the cats all these
years, and some of them go too far!

>
> For me, the small risk that something will happen to them is more than
> offset by the enjoyment they get by being "free" outside. I've had
> eight cats during the 16 years that I've had this fenced in yard. Four
> have died, but none because they were allowed to go out. Four are
> still enjoying the yard and will do so today when I get home.

FOUR CHEERS! I view with dismay the idea of cooping up an animal in
an unnatural environment just for the selfish enjoyment of the owner!
If that goes for cats, which I've had all my life, imagine how much
more it goes for dogs, especially HUGE dogs shut up in a small
apartment, and afforded only a daily walk by the perhaps conscientious
but normally busy owner, employed or not.

HB

[Brooklyn1]

dgk wrote:

>Brooklyn1 wrote:
>>Gas Bag wrote:
>>>
>>> She wants to stop her cats getting out, and other cats getting in.
>>> To any cat "lovers" out there, my friend isn't getting rid of her
>>> cats, nor is she trapping/baiting any of the cats in her suburb.
>>
>>Anyone who cares about their cats doesn't let them out.
>
>Like most absolute statements, that's nonsense. Cats enjoy being
>outdoors and if we really care about our cats we want them to be
>happy. Safe counts but so does happy.

What good is a "happy" cat flattened with tire tread impressions...
cats are happy indoors... you're an imbecile.

[Julie Bove]

"Brooklyn1" <Gravesend1> wrote in message
news:sk5r281qa6i0pc9c0...@4ax.com...

I agree there. It saddens me to get the mail now. Every few days there is
a new poster of a missing cat on the mailbox. I constantly see cats roaming
the neighborhood and frequently we see them in our backyard at night. I
don't know who owned the black one with white paws but I saw it at the side
of the road. Looked pretty dead.

Not only do we have some wild drivers on this street but I think there are
also coyotes. Some were spotted not far from here.

[Julie Bove]

"dgk" <d...@somewhere.com> wrote in message
news:70js28pgmeba2f9v0...@4ax.com...

Cats do love that but... Unless I had the money to build a very specific
type of cat enclosure, I wouldn't let my cats outside. Would have to be
something to keep them very safe. But even with something like that, the
cat could get fleas or maybe eat a bird or a rodent and then maybe get
worms. Our baby cat has had two kinds of worms now. I don't know how she
got them. She lives indoors. She did have the lung worms when we got her.
Not sure about the round worms unless perhaps she got them from eating a
bug. She and mom did get a moth in here just prior.

[Julie Bove]

"Brooklyn1" <Gravesend1> wrote in message

news:jrvs285jss0lgtq6q...@4ax.com...

Yes. I saw a bumper sticker online that said, "I'd rather be inside and fat
than outside and flat."

I am sure that my momma cat was probably outside at some point in her life.
She and her babies were found in an abandoned house and they had to get food
from somewhere. But now she never tries to get out. Never. She is
perfectly happy as a house cat.

Now the baby? Well she isn't actually a baby any more since she is over a
year old but... She is the one they named that phrase after about how
curiosity killed the cat. She is very interested in the garage for some
reason. I don't want her out there because there are all sorts of little
hidey holes and some are up high. She can jump up high. We did once have a
rat get in there during the winter and it died somewhere in the wall. Would
be horrible if she were to suffer the same fate. So I will walk her out
there in my arms and show her around. Nothing of interest to her, I
wouldn't think. Just some canned goods, soda pop, Christmas lights, a few
tools... But one day she came very close to getting to the outside!
Apparently I did not shut the door from the laundry room fully and she
pushed it open. She was walking very slowly and cautiously towards the
opening of the garage. Mom was in the laundry room looking very worried and
calling to her. Luckily I was able to pick her up and bring her back
inside.

[Brooklyn1]

Domestic cats live happily indoors, they do fine with a window but
mostly they need cat companionship so always have at least two,
preferably from the same litter. Contrary to what many believe cats
are not loners, they are very social, moreso then dogs. Cats live a
shortened life outdoors, they are more likely to become road kill than
wild animals as domestic cats don't possess nearly the same level of
survival skills. Feral cats have excellent survival skills outdoors
but they don't live long due to poor diet and disease. There are many
types of outdoor cat enclosures but none protect against deadly
parasites and poisonings (cats will catch and eat insects that contain
insectide), and outdoor animals of all kinds are very susceptible to
overspray from thoughtless gardeners, you won't know until it's too
late. I can go on but bottom line is giving a cat a good home means
keeping it indoors. The pinheads who put cats outdoors are simply too
lazy and cheap to deal with cat litter, with the low IQ rationalizing
about cats are happier outdoors, BULLSHIT, the morons are happier with
cats outdoors because the cheap lazy bastards don't need to buy and
deal with cat litter. Cats are very happy indoors, even in a small
apartment, again all they need is a window and a playmate. Many of my
neighbors let their cats out, invaribly I'll see them flattened on the
road. My cats never go out... however I do have a feral cat living in
my barn, can't get close enough to know if Newt is a boy or a girl, I
bring it food and water every day and eventually plan on capturing and
bringing it to a Vet. This is Newt heading back home to his barn a
few minutes ago for breakfast, Newt runs off when I approach to put
out food, photographed at 600', a very good looking cat:
http://i48.tinypic.com/nwzmf9.jpg
http://i49.tinypic.com/o074ub.jpg
Earlier this morning, the twins:
http://i46.tinypic.com/zmqf4.jpg
http://www.vetinfo.com/indoor-outdoor-cat-life-expectancy.html

[Bill Graham]

Hear, hear! I agree with you 100%. I lost one outside cat in my entire life,
and even he enjoyed being outsidfe in the neighborhood so much, that if I
had to do it all over again, I wouldn't change a thing. Some cats are just
naturally gregarious, and keeping them locked up inside a house would be a
crime.

There is more to life than just breathing, as Patrick Henry would tell you.
The joy and friendship my B-K gave to others in the neighborhood, (even the
dogs) made his freedom mandatory....

[Bill Graham]

Everyone, and everything, dies., What's important is enjoying what little
time you have. This is true for me, and also true for my cats. Only a stupid
liberal would trade freedom for a longer life, and then have the gall to
impose their poor choice on the rest of the world......

[Bill Graham]

If you live in a dangerous environment for cats, then either keep them
indoors, or don't keep them at all. But there are some other people in the
world (like me)that live in a very safe environment for cats, And these
people keep outside cats. I wouldn't presume to tell others how to keep
their cats, and I resent it when others tell me how to keep mine. All of my
cats were aquired by me as grown cats, who just wandered onto my property
and liked the cut of my jib, and decided to stay. I wouldn't lock them up
any more than our local police station makes a habit of apprehending people
on the street and locking them up.

I don't force feed my cats either. I offer them something to eat. They have
the option of eating it, or not.....

[Julie Bove]

"Brooklyn1" <Gravesend1> wrote in message

news:1u4v281fh3v295oql...@4ax.com...

That is why we got two. When I had Maui, she would not tolerate any other
cats and really most other humans. She was taken from her mom at too young
of an age but I didn't know this until I took her to the vet. The person
who sold her to me said she was older than she was. So she became overly
fond of me and also my husband and then to my daughter once she was born.
But she wasn't very kind to most other humans.

[Higgs Boson]

Amazing how they can drag their Neanderthal politics into everything--
even a discussion about cats.

HB

[dgk]

On Sat, 18 Aug 2012 17:27:30 -0700, "Bill Graham" <we...@comcast.net>
wrote:

Hey, I'm a liberal and I let my cats out.

[Bill Graham]

Both cats and people (including Neanderthals) deserve freedom.... Or, at
least, the choice....

[Bill Graham]

Well, perhaps you are the exception... Most of the liberals I know have the
following attitude: I wouldn't do it, and if I wouldn't do it, then nobody
should do it, so we should make a law that forbids anyone from doing it.

[dgk]

On Mon, 20 Aug 2012 20:12:52 -0700, "Bill Graham" <we...@comcast.net>

I don't think that has even a hint of truth to it though. Most
liberals I know want people to do what they want. Get married to
someone of the same sex? Fine by me. Get a tattoo, it's your body. You
want to smoke pot? No problem to me. In fact, if you want to use
cocaine and you're an adult, fine by me. Just collect some tax on it.

No, most liberals are pretty libertarian. But there are limits and
problems once things affect someone else. I prefer government to
control those things rather than corporate power. And I see the attack
on government as increasing corporate power.

[Billy]

In article <vqte3896olef0flaq...@4ax.com>,

<http://cpc.grijalva.house.gov/the-peoples-priorities-to-rebuild-the-amer
ican-dream/>

--
Welcome to the New America.
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hA736oK9FPg>
or
E Pluribus Unum
Green Party Nominee Jill Stein & Running Mate, Cheri Honkala
<http://www.democracynow.org/2012/7/13/green_party_nominee_jill_stein_running>

[Higgs Boson]

On Aug 24, 5:51 am, dgk <d...@somewhere.com> wrote:
> On Mon, 20 Aug 2012 20:12:52 -0700, "Bill Graham" <w...@comcast.net>
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >dgk wrote:
> >> On Sat, 18 Aug 2012 17:27:30 -0700, "Bill Graham" <w...@comcast.net>

****In the immortal words of Samuel Goldwyn:

INCLUDE ME OUT!!! (apocriphyl - apocryphil - apocryphal) I am a
thinking adult, not a whining overgrown child.

At the slightest whiff of Libertarianism, I take a long hot shower.

But there are limits and
> problems once things affect someone else. I prefer government to
> control those things rather than corporate power. And I see the attack
> on government as increasing corporate power.

****Uh...since the government is pretty much sold out to Our Corporate
Masters anyway, the only ones getting hurt are the most vulnerable.
You know who they are...unless you exist in a separate universe like
Mitt.

[Bill Graham]

In my experience, I find that liberals will choose government over
individuals or corporate entities. For example, if a corporate entity bribes
a government official, the liberal is most likely to immediately blame the
corporate entity, whereas, I will find the government official to be most
despicable. After all, corporations have to compete, and if they suspect
their competition of bribing the government, then they are forced to do
likewise. But our representatives are expected (by me) to be not corrupted.
They have the public's trust, and are most culpable in my mind...

[Bill Graham]

Well, what do you think about the following: The government socializes
medicine, and makes laws forcing hospitals to take care of anyone whether
they are insured or not. - Then after a while, they say, "Since we are
giving medical care at the taxpayer's expense to all who need it, we insist
that you don't enguage in any activities that are dangerous to your health,
such as driving without a seat belt, riding your cycle without a helmit, or
smoking/eating the wrong foods that may incur health problems that we will
have to take care of." IOW, they first socialize something, and then use
their socialization as an excuse to control it.
Suppose, for example they were to finance eternary clinics with the
taxpayers money. Then, after letting that saettle in for a while, they say,
"You may no longer let your cats roam free, because they may become injured
by the dangers of freedom and this will impoact the tax funds. Therefore we
are drafting a law that demands that everyone keep their cats locked up at
all times."

I think that if you could poll people on this, all the one3s who agreed with
such a law would be liberals. (At least, that's where my money would go.)

[Julie Bove]

"dgk" <d...@somewhere.com> wrote in message

news:vqte3896olef0flaq...@4ax.com...

I am a liberal and although I dislike politics, if I had to choose a party I
guess libertarian would be the one I would identify with the most. There
are some things that they are for that I am not although what it is now
escapes me.

I think for the most part people should be allowed to do what they want to
do provided they are not hurting anyone, including themselves. I do dislike
guns. I personally know too many people who have been permanently injured
or even killed by them. Yes, stupid accidents. But accidents that wouldn't
have happened if there were no gun. I do know some people are into hunting.
I am not. I guess that is their right. And I guess an exception would have
to be made there. Obviously police and military need weapons. I guess I
really just don't want to think about it. Things like this make my brain
hurt.

[Julie Bove]

"Bill Graham" <we...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:aNKdnYtBTd1B7KXN...@giganews.com...

I am against socialized medicine because I know people who live in countries
that have it and I do not think and they do not think they are getting good
care. Yes, some have no problems. But I have one friend who has had such
problems that she could write a novel on it. Of course one doesn't have to
have socialized medicine to have problems. I have had enough here in the
USA.

My same friend who has the medical problems lives in a rural area and there
is no other house for miles around. She lets her cats and her dog run free.
The only car they might get hit by is by her, her mom or a visitor. But
there are wild animals out there.

So if you're going to let your cat run free and it gets hit by a car or
killed or injured by some other cat who is also running free or some wild
animal... I just don't want to hear about it!

It would be a different story if a house cat got loose and out of the house
on its own. I do know this happens. But for a person to let it out loose?
And then come whining to me because it was flattened by a car? Or eaten by
a coyote? And yeah, that has happened. That then is your own fault, IMO.

[Julie Bove]

"Bill Graham" <we...@comcast.net> wrote in message

news:fpOdnRmhfoB686XN...@giganews.com...

Oh bah! I don't choose either one. Yes, I know that we need both for
various reasons. I know there are corrupt people out there all over the
place. I also know there isn't a danged thing I can do about it. So mostly
I just stay out of it. I try to take care of myself.

[Brooklyn1]

Those are the same imbeciles who let their four year old play in the
road.

[Bill Graham]

Well, as a libertarian, I have owned and carried a gun most of my life. To
be sure, gun accidents wouldn't happen were there no guns, but then, auto
accidents wouldn't happen were there no cars, either, and, like cars, guns
do have a purpose. I don't hunt, but I don't want to be killed by some
mugger or crazy person either, and carrying a gun gave me comfort and the
courage to go into some fairly dangerous places. If the world were chock
full of policemen so there was one on every corner 24-7, then guns would not
be necessary. But, unfortunately, the police can't prevent crime. There
aren't nearly enough of them for that. They can only hunt down the criminals
after the fact. So, if you want to prevent something bad from happening to
you, you have to do it yourself. When a crime is taking place there will, in
all likelihood be only two people there. You, and the criminal who is out to
harm you. So, you had better be able to defend yourself, and the only way I
know how to do this effectively is to carry a gun and know how to use it.

[Bill Graham]

Julie Bove wrote:


> I am against socialized medicine because I know people who live in
> countries that have it and I do not think and they do not think they
> are getting good care. Yes, some have no problems. But I have one
> friend who has had such problems that she could write a novel on it. Of
> course one doesn't have to have socialized medicine to have
> problems. I have had enough here in the USA.
>
> My same friend who has the medical problems lives in a rural area and
> there is no other house for miles around. She lets her cats and her
> dog run free. The only car they might get hit by is by her, her mom
> or a visitor. But there are wild animals out there.
>
> So if you're going to let your cat run free and it gets hit by a car
> or killed or injured by some other cat who is also running free or
> some wild animal... I just don't want to hear about it!
>
> It would be a different story if a house cat got loose and out of the
> house on its own. I do know this happens. But for a person to let
> it out loose? And then come whining to me because it was flattened by
> a car? Or eaten by a coyote? And yeah, that has happened. That
> then is your own fault, IMO.

I have lived in both kinds of environments. Ones that are dangerous to
outside cats and ones that aren't. Right now, I live on a dead end street,
and next to a huge Christmas tree farm, and all of my cats are free to go
and come as they please. I wouldn't recommend that everyone do this, but I
know that there are some circumstancews where it is OK, so I wouldn't try to
tell everyone to do one or the other. If you lived on a farm, I think you
would let your cats go free to chase the chickens.... If there were no free
cats, then I probably wouldn't own any cats. All of my cats were free
roaming animals when I got them. They just happened to wander in one day,
liked the cut of my jib, and decided to stay. I never trapped them, and I
feel that their freedom isn't my business to prevent. If they want to leave,
they can go at any time. But hey! I am a libertarian, so what can you
expect?

If it makes you feel any better, I have found that almost all of my cats
never leave the property. They are quite content to sun themselves out on my
rear deck and are quite safe there. I have never seen a coyote or other
predatory animal on my property, although there was an incident many years
ago where I heard a loud bang, and when I looked outside, there was a large
bird of prey, (like an eagle or osprey) out on the deck, and our cat had
skeedadled through the cat door into the bedroom...
The bird was stunned, but recovered in a few seconds and flew away. I
presume that it had seen our cat (Missy) and tried to take her. But this is
very unusual, and I haven't heard of any of the neighborhood cats getting
into trouble, and the block has about ten of them, and they are all outside
cats.....

[Bill Graham]

Perhaps, but be aware that what others do can directly affect you. Its kind
of like being an isolationist. You can turn your back on the rest of the
world, and say. "what they do in other countries just isn't my business."
And, in 1912 this might have been a pretty good policy, but today, any two
bit dictator could build an atom bomb, and deploy it in the center of New
York City, and kill perhaps a million people, so we can no longer turn our
backs on the rest of the world.

[Billy]

In article <x8idnbopGMfR96TN...@giganews.com>,
"Bill Graham" <we...@comcast.net> wrote:

Would you two mind awfully deleting rec.gardens from your conversation?

[Julie Bove]

That's true.

[Billy]

In article <k1c4mj$h2e$1...@dont-email.me>,

So you are talking to the local troll Julie. I asked that this
conversation be taken elsewhere, out of rec.gardens, but the troll has
brought it back. Be advise that Brooklyn1, aka Sheldon, Shelly is an
verified asshole. Keep talking to him until he starts drinking again,
and he will tell you what he thinks of Christians, and women's anatomy.

[Julie Bove]

"Billy" <wild...@withoutta.net> wrote in message
news:wildbilly-55DD3...@c-61-68-245-199.per.connect.net.au...

I do know Sheldon from another group. And I know what he thinks about my
hooters. I don't consider him to be a troll but maybe you do.

[Higgs Boson]

On Aug 25, 12:10 am, "Julie Bove" <julieb...@frontier.com> wrote:
> "Bill Graham" <w...@comcast.net> wrote in message
>
> news:aNKdnYtBTd1B7KXN...@giganews.com...
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > Billy wrote:
> >> In article <vqte3896olef0flaqvjp2hf2mgob0la...@4ax.com>,
> >> dgk <d...@somewhere.com> wrote:
>
> >>> On Mon, 20 Aug 2012 20:12:52 -0700, "Bill Graham" <w...@comcast.net>

> [...]

Your data base is on the smallish side, for a country with over
300,000,000 population.

Suggestion -- to you and others (you know who you are). Simply remove
the term "socialized medicine" and substitute
""universal health care", and see how much that simple change of words
will soothe your savage breasts.

To be blunt, I doubt if 99% of the respondents have a CLUE as to the
history of socialism. You just ingest and regurgitate the bilge that
is fed to you throujgh the corporate media. Their funders -- Koch et
al -- poop their pants at the thought that giving workers decent
conditions and refraining from manufacturing harmful products could --
heaven forfend -- send the stock price down even a point or two. Yet
all objective research shows that treating employees well, thus
lessening turnover and concomitant need for re-training, and selling
good products actually HELPS the bottom line.

This comes from a card-carrying capitalist, who is sure capitalism can
be made to work profitably for the sellers and compassionately for the
buyers. It's only massive greed, arrogance, and lust for power that
screws up a viable system.

HB

HB

[Brooklyn1]

HB IS REALLY QUITE MENTALLY ILL... ITS ONLY REASON FOR BEING HERE IS
TO PICK ARGUMENTS ABOUT THAT WHICH HE KNOWS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. TO
DATE HB HAS POSTED NOTHING OF VALUE... HAS ANYONE SEEN HIS GARDEN, OF
COURSE NOT, HB LIVES IN A ONE ROOM CELLAR APARTMENT FOR WHICH IT'S
LATE PAYING RENT. HB IS NO KIND OF GARDNER, IT'S HANDS HAVE NEVER
TOUCHED DIRT.

[Julie Bove]

"Higgs Boson" <hypa...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:b7d40b6d-0e0b-4349...@oq8g2000pbc.googlegroups.com...

Your data base is on the smallish side, for a country with over
300,000,000 population.

Suggestion -- to you and others (you know who you are). Simply remove
the term "socialized medicine" and substitute
""universal health care", and see how much that simple change of words
will soothe your savage breasts.

---------
Nope. I don't even like HMO's. After having studied insurance on the brink
of my husband getting a new job I can now say that a lot of it truly sucks.
To say that we all need health insurance or to make it available to everyone
is truly meaningless. As much as I have complained about the medical
insurance that I do have, apparently it is quite good. I consider myself
lucky.

---------

To be blunt, I doubt if 99% of the respondents have a CLUE as to the
history of socialism. You just ingest and regurgitate the bilge that
is fed to you throujgh the corporate media. Their funders -- Koch et
al -- poop their pants at the thought that giving workers decent
conditions and refraining from manufacturing harmful products could --
heaven forfend -- send the stock price down even a point or two. Yet
all objective research shows that treating employees well, thus
lessening turnover and concomitant need for re-training, and selling
good products actually HELPS the bottom line.

---------

Actually I know pretty much about it seeing as how the brother of one of my
best friends was (not sure if he still is) a member of the Socialist
Worker's Party. I had to listen to him spout off about it far more than I
wanted to. Sounds pretty good on paper but when you think about it, doesn't
work out so well for a lot of people.

This comes from a card-carrying capitalist, who is sure capitalism can
be made to work profitably for the sellers and compassionately for the
buyers. It's only massive greed, arrogance, and lust for power that
screws up a viable system.

-------

Okay... I am one of those people who doesn't really desire to be rich and
famous. As long as I have a roof over my head, enough money to get what I
need, enough to eat, etc., I'm okay. I do donate food to the food bank when
I can and I do give to animal charities when I can. *shrugs*

[Bill Graham]

Higgs Boson wrote:
> Suggestion -- to you and others (you know who you are). Simply remove
> the term "socialized medicine" and substitute
> ""universal health care", and see how much that simple change of words
> will soothe your savage breasts.

Yes. It is possible to put sheep's clothing on the wolf. The Brothers Grimm
taught us that many years ago. But that doesn't make it right. It just makes
it liberal....

[Bill Graham]

Capitalism has worked very well for over 250 years. Socialism, on the other
hand is definitely not working in Europe (many countries there are going
broke) and, it doesn't seem to be working very well here, either. (Those
bums who live down under the freeway overpass on welfare checks are
increasing in number) I think I'll stick with capitalism and our
Constitution, thanks.....

[Julie Bove]

"Bill Graham" <we...@comcast.net> wrote in message

news:PIqdnRTmzajGYKbN...@giganews.com...

Yep. That's kinda why communes don't work either. I know some people who
tried that back in the 70's. Again, looks good on paper. But get just one
bad seed and...

[Billy]

In article <k1h976$sj0$1...@dont-email.me>,

Aren't you the stupid bunt. I look forward to seeing you in living bolor
on my T.V. set, wink, wink, nudge, nudge.

<http://truthdamntruthandstatistics.blogspot.com/2008/03/corporate-vs-soc
ial-welfare.html>

[dgk]

On Fri, 24 Aug 2012 08:24:56 -0700, Billy <wild...@withoutta.net>
wrote:

Yes, that's pretty much the idea.

[Bill Graham]

Well, to bring the discussion back to cats, I take in strays and feed them
and water them, and offer them a warm place to sleep in the Winter time.
What I don't do is imprison them. They were free when they came to me, and
they remain free while they are with me. Part of the reason they choose to
stay with me is the fact that the door is always open. Both for me and for
them. Slavery ended (or should have ended) back in the 19th century, both
for animals and men.

[Brooklyn1]

"Bill Graham" wrote:
>
>Well, to bring the discussion back to cats, I take in strays and feed them
>and water them, and offer them a warm place to sleep in the Winter time.
>What I don't do is imprison them. They were free when they came to me, and
>they remain free while they are with me. Part of the reason they choose to
>stay with me is the fact that the door is always open. Both for me and for
>them. Slavery ended (or should have ended) back in the 19th century, both
>for animals and men.

Tell the truth, shit for brains... you're another of those lazy cheap
bastards who can't exert themselves to deal with litter and pay for
it... you don't take the cat to a vet and you feed it the cheapest
crap food you can find because this isn't the first time you made
believe you are caring for an animal because you know there's no
reason to make any investment in yet another cat that you'll find
flattened in the road. I've met lots of fake do-gooders like you... I
don't believe a word you said, you don't feed any cat, you're just
trolling.

[Julie Bove]

"Brooklyn1" <Gravesend1> wrote in message
news:d72d48tad4opgpq5u...@4ax.com...

I tried to take in two strays once but Maui (my old cat) wouldn't have them.
I couldn't really afford three cats at the time anyway. I had a feed store
say that they would take them but they wound up not doing it. They loaned
me a big kennel for them and I could at least let them sleep in that on the
freezing nights in my house. It was the only thing that kept them safe from
Maui. And they willingly came in to sleep. I did feed them.

Then my husband (we were not married yet) called around and found a shelter
that would take them if he would pay to have them spayed and neutered, which
he did.

Hopefully they went to a good home.

[dgk]

Maybe he can't afford litter? Maybe he can't afford to take cats to
the vet? I don't know. We all do what we can, that's why we're on
these groups.

I have four cats. I can keep them totally safe, locked in a small
room. Should I do that? If I give them the run of the house, maybe
they'll chew on a wire and get electrocuted. Maybe they'll eat a stray
rubber band and die of a perorated colon. Maybe find a string and eat
that, tying up their intestines. No, I'd better keep them locked in a
small room with nothing that can possible hurt them. Food bowls,
water, litterbox. No cat tree because they might jump off it and break
a leg. If I let them have the run of the house, maybe they'll break a
screen in the window and get out. That actually happend once - they
didn't get out but they could have.

I can't take any more in although I'd like to. Maybe just one more.
And maybe just one more after that. Perhaps stop at 15? 20? That's
called hoarding or collecting. Am I bad for taking care of a few
outside cats but not taking them inside? I've built them shelters, I
feed them, I've had them fixed. And yes, they stand a pretty good
chance of getting run over. I dread that happening, particularly to
the one we call Baby, but I can't fix all the problems in the world. I
can't take in every cat and keep it safe. I'd love to. If I take in
Baby, how about that new grey one that showed up, Buddy? Maybe we
should turn them into some agency where they might get adopted if
sociable enough or, far more likely, killed?

And I do feed the outside cats Friskees or 9Lives or something cheaper
than what I feed the indoor ones. It costs a lot of money, and my
spoiled cats don't even like the good food that they get. For that
matter, they don't like Friskees. They're spoiled. Sure, why buy food
that MIGHT be better for them in the long run when they're likely to
die of some accident before I could find them and get them to a vet?

So we all do what we can. Some of us believe that the quality of the
cat's life, the ability to hunt and to roam is more important than
keeping them in a safe sterile box. I'm the rare third option. Mine go
into a fenced in yard where they can dig and lie in the earth or hide
under bushes as they will. There is some risk, but they love it.
Should I make them stay inside? You think so. I think not. We both
love our cats.

[dgk]

Hopefully. I'm always afraid to take cats to any organization other
than a no-kill shelter. And even that can be a problem because the cat
can stay in a small cage for a very long time. No fun for the cat.
PETA thinks that it's better for the cats to be PTS rather than live
their life in a no-kill shelter. It's a reasonable arugment.

[Billy]

In article <rsoe48p36p1i2oous...@4ax.com>,

dgk <d...@somewhere.com> wrote:

> On Tue, 04 Sep 2012 19:24:44 -0400, Brooklyn1 <Gravesend1> wrote:

Why are you pin heads cross posting to a half dozen groups including
gardener's, consumer's groups? Are you a band of TROLLS? Or are you just
being lead by the anti-Christian Brooklyn1?
-----------
From: Sheldon a.k.a. Brooklyn1 <PENM...@aol.com>
Newsgroups: rec.gardens
Subject: Re: I would like some feedback..
Date: Tue, 25 Mar 2008 10:51:22 -0700 (PDT)

Christian wrote:
> I own a business "Professional Pond Maintenance and Fish Care".

That's your first untruth... you *operate* a business.... you don't
own a business until your IRS return doesn't show you're operating at
a loss.

> I'm not here to promote my business.

That's your second untruth.

> I'm wanting to get any and all feedback, positive or negative,
> on a website I designed recently to go with it. I advertise locally
> and direct folks to my site for more information.
>
> Here is the link:http://allyoudoisfeedthefish.net/index.html
>
> What do you think of the basic design?
> Can you read it easily?
> Ads or no ads?
>
> I'm thinking people here are close to my target audience, being that
> garden lovers usually like ponds even if they don't personally have
> one.
>
> Thank You,
> Christian

Your parents must have had high hopes for you to succeed in the
arts... you're not going to do well in business unless you change your
name.
----------

[Julie Bove]

"dgk" <d...@somewhere.com> wrote in message

news:vjre48hh4u2287udb...@4ax.com...

True but we were having a severe winter and the kitten got damage to her paw
pads from being out in the cold. So they needed medical attention.

[Billy]

In article <k28gdt$vcn$1...@dont-email.me>,
"Julie Bove" <juli...@frontier.com> wrote:

Hellooooooooooooooooooooooooo, Julie. You don't care if your being a
troll, or are you just unconscious?

[Julie Bove]

"Billy" <wild...@withoutta.net> wrote in message

news:wildbilly-E9984...@c-61-68-245-199.per.connect.net.au...

> In article <k28gdt$vcn$1...@dont-email.me>,
> "Julie Bove" <juli...@frontier.com> wrote:
>
> Hellooooooooooooooooooooooooo, Julie. You don't care if your being a
> troll, or are you just unconscious?

I'm not being a troll.

[Bill Graham]

Yes, it can be rather expensive. We have a roving vet who makes house calls
in the Salem area, (where we live)and with five cats, it costs us over a
thousand dollars a year to keep them in good health. Oddly enough, our feral
cat, Smokey has cost us the least. Two of the females had to have operations
that ran about $800 each. One had har thyroid glands removed, and the other
had a hairball in her stomach that made it swell up until it filled her
whole abdoman. We thought it was a tumor, and we told the vet to put her
down if they couldn't remove it all. The vet opened her up, saw that it was
her stomache, opened that up, and just removed a baseball sized hairball!
Today she is fine, and that was several years ago. But at our age, my wife
and I have few hobbies, so we don't mind paying for our kitty's health.

[Bill Graham]

Truth is, only one of our five cats goes outside to do her thing. The other
four all use the two litter boxes we keep in the house. But I know that it
is impossibler to tell a liberal anthing. They all know it all, and can't be
convinced by anything anyone else could say to them.

[Bill Graham]

I don't know where anyone got the idea that I can't afford to keep my five
cats in good health. I retired in 1996 with almost a million dollars. Today,
at 77, I am still worth a half million. Our cats get the best of medical
care from a roving vet who sees all of them about once every six months, and
we have had two of them get life saving operations at about 800 dollars
each. Just because they are "outside cats" who have front and rear cat doors
they can use at any time of the day or night, doesn't mean that they are not
well cared for at all.

[Bill Graham]

I think so too. All of my cats were free as the wind when I got them, and
living with me, they remain free. I would rather put them down than imprison
them in a cage 24/7. My cats and I believe as Patrick Henry believed: Give
me liberty or give me death! As I said here once before: Only a stupid
liberal thinks length of life is more important than quality of life.

[Bill Graham]

Billy wrote:
> In article <rsoe48p36p1i2oous...@4ax.com>,
> dgk <d...@somewhere.com> wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 04 Sep 2012 19:24:44 -0400, Brooklyn1 <Gravesend1> wrote:
>
> Why are you pin heads cross posting to a half dozen groups including
> gardener's, consumer's groups? Are you a band of TROLLS? Or are you
> just being lead by the anti-Christian Brooklyn1?

I don't know how to not cross post. How do you know from which of several
groups listed in the header the person you are answering is posting from?
Ande, if you don't know, then how can you eliminate any of the groups
without removing the one that you want to answer? So, I post to whoefver is
in the header that is already there.

[Bill Graham]

On usenet, a "troll" is anyone with whom you disagree......

[dgk]

On Sun, 9 Sep 2012 23:00:29 -0700, "Bill Graham" <we...@comcast.net>
wrote:

Both count. Liberty is important but so is food and a nice place to
sleep.

[Higgs Boson]

What gave you that idea?

HB

[dgk]

Three of my four cats want a comfy place to lie, nice food to eat,
toys and a slave to play with, and a warmer comfy place to lie. The
other one wants the same thing but likes to go outside once in a
while.

[Bill Graham]

Absolutely! And my cats hase both. but it is a dangerous world, and there
are many hazards for outsice cats. Life itself is hazardous, however, and
you can't get out of it alive. As the gambler once said, "You can't win, you
can't break even, and you can't even get out of the game." So, in my humble
opinion, you might as well enjoy yourself while you are ahead, and play
every hand like it was your last.....

[Bill Graham]

The hundreds of them that I had to live and work with in California for over
40 years..... They would do anything to promote my "good health", whether I
wanted it or not. An example? Putting their kids tooth medicine in my
drinking water. And, believe me, there are many more.....

[Higgs Boson]

Hic jacet lapin! Fluoridation. Betcha the other examples are on the
same level...

Brings back fond memories of a film I must have seen a dozen times,
and it gets better each time: DR. STANGELOVE. Perhaps the late Peter
Sellers' greatest performance... Screenplay by Stanley Kubrick,
Terry Southern, and Peter George.

Remember that marvelous scene where General Jack D. Ripper... well,
read this excerpt from:

http://citation.allacademic.com/meta/p_mla_apa_research_citation/4/1/4/5/9/pages414592/p414592-21.php

" Black comedy focuses on topics that are typically treated very
seriously, including death and war. The classic film Dr. Strangelove
or: How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Bomb (1964), which
concerned the "doomsday" prospect of thermonuclear war during the
cold war, perfectly exemplifies the genre of black comedy and
highlights its ability to offer a viable alternative narrative form.
In the film, a crazed Air Force General – even his name was
satirical, Jack. D. Ripper – comically (not tragically!) initiates a
nuclear attack because of his belief that a communist conspiracy
explained the fluoridation of the nation's water supply. Ripper
claimed that such efforts would "sap and impurify all of our precious
bodily fluids." 40 The film ridicules 40 See Dr. Strangelove: A
Continuity Transcript." Available at http://www.visual- memory.co.uk/
amk/doc/0055.html."

HB

[Bill Graham]

Higgs Boson wrote:
>
> Hic jacet lapin! Fluoridation. Betcha the other examples are on the
> same level...

Yes. - The unconstitutional level. Like taking $4000 of my tax money and
giving it to that welfare bum down the block with rusty cars all over his
front lawn so he could buy himself a new car, while I pedeled a bicycle to
work for ten years.... You better vote early next November, cause when I
vote, I will be so mad I will tear the lever off the machine.....

[Higgs Boson]

I AM voting early Thought I would be out of the country, so ordered
an ballot that's supposed to arrive early Oct.

If you tear off the lever, your vote might not count, and you would
probably be arrested.

Hmm....OK, go ahead...

HB

[Billy]

In article <qq2dnXBFyq_Sh8jN...@giganews.com>,

You mean like Wall Street taking 40% of your wealth so that they can
give bonuses to the thieving bastards that robbed you?

<http://truthdamntruthandstatistics.blogspot.com/2008/03/corporate-vs-soc
ial-welfare.html>
Corporate vs. Social Welfare

<http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/fed-americans-wealth-drop
ped-40-percent/2012/06/11/gJQAlIsCVV_story.html>
Americans saw wealth plummet 40�percent from 2007 to 2010, Federal
Reserve says

<http://voices.washingtonpost.com/livecoverage/2008/10/after_bailout_aig_
executives_h.html>

After Bailout, AIG Executives Head to Resort
UPDATED: 11:31 a.m.

Less than a week after the federal government offered an $85 billion
bailout to insurance giant AIG, the company held a week-long retreat for
its executives at the luxury St. Regis Resort in Monarch Beach, Calif.,
running up a tab of $440,000, Rep. Henry Waxman (D-Calif.) said today at
the the opening of a House committee hearing about the near-failure of
the insurance giant.

Showing a photograph of the resort, Waxman said the executives spent
$200,000 for rooms, $150,000 for meals and $23,000 for the spa.

Unfortunately for the scenario you are trying to write, all these folks
are white welfare recipients.

--
E Pluribus Unum

Know where your money is tonight?
It's making the lives of Wall Street Bankers more comfortable.


The GOP is chasing us towards a cliff called "Obama."
Vote 3rd Party

[dgk]

On Sun, 16 Sep 2012 23:13:43 -0700, Billy <wild...@withouta.net>
wrote:

It's easier to follow the divide and conquer path of the 1% (blacks vs
whites vs Hispanc, poor vs near poor vs middle class) than to focus on
the stagging concentration of wealth at the top. No one, including
this liberal, wants my money going to someone who is lazy and just
wants a handout. But that's what is presented as the norm. Bill is
going to vote for a guy who made staggering amounts of money by
shipping American jobs overseas and hides his money in overseas
accounts.

Multinational corporations have no loyalty to America, unlike Bill,
and me. If they can make a bigger profit for their 1% owners by
screwing the US, they are more than happy to do so. All they need to
do is point out that teachers still get pensions and there goes the
split. The question isn't why teachers get pensions, it's why the rest
of us have lost them.

[Bill Graham]

Hey! It isn't my fault that my government gives my money away to people who
don't deserve it. All I can do is bitch about it. I bitched about the Apollo
program back in the sisties, too. Nobody listened to me then, and nobody is
listening to me now.
Today we are over 15 trillion dollars in debt. So why don't you at least try
to do something about it in November. And I don't just mean the President.
Get rid of congress too......

[Bill Graham]

I have little choice. I don't like either (any) of them. But in this stupid
two party system we have, I have no choice but to vote for the, "lesser of
two evils" every four years. I would like to vote for the lesser of 20
evils... That would give me some chance of getting someone who is not a
crook. If it were up to me, I would choose out leaders by national lottery
out of all the available qualified citizens. The Madison Avenue system we
have now is too stupid, and all we end up with is rich and crooked
lawyers.....

[Billy]

In article <ejme58td12bs72di6...@4ax.com>,

The reality is that in 2002, 60% of welfare went to corporations.
<http://truthdamntruthandstatistics.blogspot.com/2008/03/corporate-vs-soc
ial-welfare.html>
With the trillion$ that went to Wall Street, this has no doubt
increased.

> Bill is
> going to vote for a guy who made staggering amounts of money by
> shipping American jobs overseas and hides his money in overseas
> accounts.

You are wrong again. I'll be voting for Jill Stein.

>
> Multinational corporations have no loyalty to America, unlike Bill,
> and me. If they can make a bigger profit for their 1% owners by
> screwing the US, they are more than happy to do so. All they need to
> do is point out that teachers still get pensions and there goes the
> split. The question isn't why teachers get pensions, it's why the rest
> of us have lost them.

Neo-liberal economics (Uncle Miltie's "free market") has never worked in
a democratic society, and is, indeed, anathema to it.

[Higgs Boson]

On Sep 17, 7:53 pm, "Bill Graham" <w...@comcast.net> wrote:
> Billy wrote:
> > In article <qq2dnXBFyq_Sh8jNnZ2dnUVZ5hmdn...@giganews.com>,

Mmm.... I wonder why...

HB

> Today we are over 15 trillion dollars in debt. So why don't you at least try
> to do something about it in November. And I don't just mean the President.
> Get rid of congress too....

Oh, now THAT I could sign on to. Empty out the best little whore
house in Washington.

But Bill, to get decent people to run for office -- people who
actually take their oath of office seriously, and don't use Congress
as a way to get rich quick * -- we need to get rid of the Supreme
Court's 5-4 bought&sold majority that pushed through Citizens
United. Politics will never change until we get the money out of
politics. Starting with TV. (bitter laugh).

*If you're up for (sort of) entertainment, go on-line and research how
these whores come in average economic status and leave rich.

HB

[Billy]

In article
<ef816b89-c852-4851...@v9g2000pbu.googlegroups.com>,

<http://www.vanityfair.com/society/features/2011/05/top-one-percent-20110
5>
During the savings-and-loan scandal of the 1980s�a scandal whose
dimensions, by today�s standards, seem almost quaint�the banker Charles
Keating was asked by a congressional committee whether the $1.5 million
he had spread among a few key elected officials could actually buy
influence. �I certainly hope so,� he replied. The Supreme Court, in its
recent Citizens United case, has enshrined the right of corporations to
buy government, by removing limitations on campaign spending. The
personal and the political are today in perfect alignment. Virtually all
U.S. senators, and most of the representatives in the House, are members
of the top 1 percent when they arrive, are kept in office by money from
the top 1 percent, and know that if they serve the top 1 percent well
they will be rewarded by the top 1 percent when they leave office.

[dgk]

On Tue, 18 Sep 2012 22:01:37 -0700, Billy <wild...@withoutta.net>
wrote:

But the only way to reverse that Supreme Court majority is via Obama.
Many Democrats are indeed leased by the 1%, but Republicans are owned
outright.

Voting for the Green party makes me feel good but handing the election
to Romeny's neo-conservative cabal will enshrine them in the Supreme
Court for another forty years. It would be nice to get a
constitutional amendment stating that corporations do not have the
same rights as people, but that is a very difficult route.

I've been facing the lesser-of-two-evils for 40 years, and don't see a
way out. We are unlikely to get proportional voting or any other
system that gives a third party a legitimate shot at most offices.
President is even tougher with the winner take all electoral college
system.

[Bill Graham]

The only way I can envision getting rid of TV po9litical ads is to eliminate
voting and choose our reps by lotto from the qualified public. Untill and
unless we do that, we are going to get to choose between two rich lawyers
who can buy the most TV advertising. - If It sells soap and corn flakes, it
can sell politicians.

[Bill Graham]

And only one in a hyndred can afford to buy the TV ads it takes to attain
public office. so the deck has already been stacked from the beginning......

[Bill Graham]

Well, help me push my, "select reps by lotto" system. It will sure bring the
chickens home to roost.....

[Bob F]

dgk wrote:
> On Thu, 16 Aug 2012 20:59:00 -0400, Brooklyn1 <Gravesend1> wrote:
>
>> Gas Bag wrote:
>>>
>>> She wants to stop her cats getting out, and other cats getting in.
>>> To any cat "lovers" out there, my friend isn't getting rid of her
>>> cats, nor is she trapping/baiting any of the cats in her suburb.
>>
>> Anyone who cares about their cats doesn't let them out.
>
>
> Like most absolute statements, that's nonsense. Cats enjoy being
> outdoors and if we really care about our cats we want them to be
> happy. Safe counts but so does happy.

And neighbor's love cat poop in their spinach.

[Bill Graham]

Spinach gets lots of poop on it, from birds and other animals. If you grow
veggies, you better wash them before you eat them. Cats are naturally wild
animals. Like Elsa. they were "born free". Keeping them inside is like
keeping a bird in a cage. It keeps them alive, but what is their quality of
life? For me, quality beats quantity in almost evry case.

[David E. Ross]

The quality of my own life depends on not having new plants dug up by a
cat for a toilet because it found the soil there soft and easily dug.

--
David E. Ross
Climate: California Mediterranean, see
<http://www.rossde.com/garden/climate.html>
Gardening diary at <http://www.rossde.com/garden/diary>

[Billy]

In article <k6kulj$ofd$1...@dont-email.me>,

"David E. Ross" <nob...@nowhere.invalid> wrote:

> On 10/27/12 5:40 PM, Bill Graham wrote:
> > Bob F wrote:
> >> dgk wrote:
> >>> On Thu, 16 Aug 2012 20:59:00 -0400, Brooklyn1 <Gravesend1> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Gas Bag wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> She wants to stop her cats getting out, and other cats getting in.
> >>>>> To any cat "lovers" out there, my friend isn't getting rid of her
> >>>>> cats, nor is she trapping/baiting any of the cats in her suburb.
> >>>>
> >>>> Anyone who cares about their cats doesn't let them out.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Like most absolute statements, that's nonsense. Cats enjoy being
> >>> outdoors and if we really care about our cats we want them to be
> >>> happy. Safe counts but so does happy.
> >>
> >> And neighbor's love cat poop in their spinach.
> >
> > Spinach gets lots of poop on it, from birds and other animals. If you grow
> > veggies, you better wash them before you eat them. Cats are naturally wild
> > animals. Like Elsa. they were "born free". Keeping them inside is like
> > keeping a bird in a cage. It keeps them alive, but what is their quality of
> > life? For me, quality beats quantity in almost evry case.
> >
>
> The quality of my own life depends on not having new plants dug up by a
> cat for a toilet because it found the soil there soft and easily dug.

Forget cats, I have raccoons, and put down chicken wire to discourage
them.

[Moe DeLoughan]

Responsible cat owners who want their pets to experience the outdoors
have a number of options that will permit cats to safely do so, and
without posing a nuisance to neighbors. Permanent solutions: fence
their yard or build a catio. Temporary solutions are Kittywalks and
pet pup tents. Both are made of heavy mesh, fold for storage, and are
appropriate for use under direct supervision. They won't protect a cat
from a predator, so the owner should only use them when s/he is at
home and able to keep an eye on the cat(s).

[Bill Graham]

David E. Ross wrote:
> On 10/27/12 5:40 PM, Bill Graham wrote:
>> Bob F wrote:
>>> dgk wrote:
>>>> On Thu, 16 Aug 2012 20:59:00 -0400, Brooklyn1 <Gravesend1> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Gas Bag wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> She wants to stop her cats getting out, and other cats getting
>>>>>> in. To any cat "lovers" out there, my friend isn't getting rid
>>>>>> of her cats, nor is she trapping/baiting any of the cats in her
>>>>>> suburb.
>>>>>
>>>>> Anyone who cares about their cats doesn't let them out.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Like most absolute statements, that's nonsense. Cats enjoy being
>>>> outdoors and if we really care about our cats we want them to be
>>>> happy. Safe counts but so does happy.
>>>
>>> And neighbor's love cat poop in their spinach.
>>
>> Spinach gets lots of poop on it, from birds and other animals. If
>> you grow veggies, you better wash them before you eat them. Cats are
>> naturally wild animals. Like Elsa. they were "born free". Keeping
>> them inside is like keeping a bird in a cage. It keeps them alive,
>> but what is their quality of life? For me, quality beats quantity in
>> almost evry case.
>>
>
> The quality of my own life depends on not having new plants dug up by
> a cat for a toilet because it found the soil there soft and easily
> dug.

Well, there you are. In my case, I see millions of pitiful little (furry and
otherwise) creatures freezing and starving ivery Winter, and forced to watch
their children freeze and starve before them) All done by a pitiless and
uncaring God who created this miserable mess and yet is, "worshipped" (in
abject fear) by billions of stupid folk. So, in my own small way, I try to
do what I can to help at least the few that I find in my limited area. I
could care less how they treat my potted plants. So, to each his own. I am
truely sorry for your plants, and I understand your position completely. Its
a pity that you can't understand mine.

[Bill Graham]

Rick wrote:

> Cats aren't too big a problem in my garden, but a group of feral cats
> has really played Hobb with the wild turkey population on one of the
> tracts. Coyotes seem to keep them thinned in the warmer months and I
> suspect winter is hard on them as they don't seem to migrate. I hope
> they all succumb this year so I don't have to try and deal with it.

The wild turkeys around here are much too large to interest any house cat.
Also, I have never seen a house cat team up with another house cat to
accomplish anything. Cats are the ultimate loners and don't, "team up" I
also will take this opportunity to suggest that anyone who grows anything
outside has to worry about bird poop as well as a myriad of other harmful
insects and animals, and shouled wash all his veggies thouroughly before
eating them. It doesn't matter whether he is washing off cat or bird poop,
as long as he washes it off, and ( preferably) cooks everything before
eating it.

[Bill Graham]

When you get to your heaven, find a black cat named, "B-K" and ask him if he
would rather have lived twice as long in a cage.....

[David E. Ross]

The problem is NOT the poop. The problem is that cats dig toilets for
their poop. The digging destroys parts of my garden.

Birds do not dig toilets.

[Bill Graham]

But this is one of the nicest things about cats... The facy yhat they bury
their droppings. Dogs don't do this. In fact, very few other animals do
this. And, it constitutes great fertilizer for the plants, too. The repair
process is minimal. It would only take a few minutes a day to clean up after
a half dozen cats. Most of our cats,use the cat box we keep inside the
house, even though they have access to the outside 24/7. Even the former
feral cat hardly ever goes outside. Have you tried putting a cat box near
your plants? I bet whichever cat is "destroying" your plants would love to
use it....

[chaniarts]

lion prides in the wild cooperate in hunting all the time.

[Bill Graham]

Yes. They are one of the exceptions. Cheetas also will team up with their
brothers, sometimes for life. but house cats seldom team up for anything.
Although sometimes I will catch two of mine chasing a strange cat away from
our property, and they occasionally will tear into an unopened bag of dry
food on my kitchen floor... Usually, however, one will do all the work, and
the others will just watch and wait until they can take their share of the
booty.....

[Bill Graham]

Rick wrote:

> I hope I'm not out of line here and that you've had the talk with your
> dad- All big turkeys come from little turkeys and little turkeys come
> from eggs that are laid in nests on the ground. The added pedators
> seem to have overwhelmed the local turkeys. The adults are fine. I
> have barn cats that do good work for me, but they can't breed and
> don't hang out in the woods killing anything that moves for the fun of
> it; which is the nature of domestic cats.

I had one that didn't kill his toys... He just brought them in the house and
let them go, so he could play with them. We had a chipmonk living in our
kitchen, under the stove, for about two months last Winter. My wife left
squirrel food out for it and water... I thought it was going to be a
permanent pet, but as soon as Spring rolled around, I left the sliding glass
door open a few inches and it escaped back outside. I don't know how my cat
caught it to begin with. Chipmonks are as fast as anything I have ever seen.
This one would run across the kitchen floor so fast you couldn't see it even
if you were looking at it.....

[Bob F]

dgk wrote:
> For me, the small risk that something will happen to them is more than
> offset by the enjoyment they get by being "free" outside. I've had
> eight cats during the 16 years that I've had this fenced in yard. Four
> have died, but none because they were allowed to go out. Four are
> still enjoying the yard and will do so today when I get home.

And your neighbors just love yout cat's poop in their spinach.

[Billy]

In article <kikfev$l1v$1...@dont-email.me>, "Bob F" <bobn...@gmail.com>
wrote:

And bird poop, raccoon poop, mouse poop, and dog poop doesn't bother
you? Just be sure to wash your spinach, and other raw vegetables in your
meal, well. To be completely safe, be sure to serve a young red wine
with your meal.

Now researchers have found that red wine acts as an antibiotic in the
body, killing potentially fatal bacteria.
<http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-205464/Red-wine-better-us.html

>

--
Welcome to the New America.
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hA736oK9FPg>
or
E Pluribus Unum

Next time vote Green Party

[dgk]

On Sat, 23 Mar 2013 07:52:07 -0700, "Bob F" <bobn...@gmail.com>
wrote:

Six month old message. Still, you should be able to read those
important words "fenced in". That means that my cats stay in my yard.

Oddly since that post was written, one cat, my favorite, died in the
yard. I heard a weird noice, looked up at the window, heard it again,
fainter, and I went to check. I found Espy under the deck, dead. Vet
said heart attack. At least he got to die in the yard that he loved so
much. And no spinach was hurt in the incident. I do grow tomatoes and
string beans back there and it's the bird poop I'm concerned with.

[Billy]

In article <92n0l85q3iennraa3...@4ax.com>,

It's always something, isn't it? The up side to bird poop is that it is
rich in phosphates, and definitely good for your garden.