Spayed Female & Un-neutered Male... Would it work?
John Ross Mc Master
Or would they fight all the time? Would the male be aggressive? Let me
know if you've ever been in this situation.
Thanks as always!
Margaret S.
> Spayed Female & Un-neutered Male... Would it work?
> Or would they fight all the time? Would the male be aggressive?
More likely the spayed female would become aggressive, develop male
behaviors -- which could cause a lot of trouble.
> Let me
> know if you've ever been in this situation.
It would depend on a lot of things. Are they indoor-only, indoor/outdoor,
outdoor-only? Are they already friendly and/or mating?
Without an intact female in his home, an intact and/or vasectomied male will
have less reason to stay home.
What has worked well in some indoor/outdoor situations, is one or more
females that have been sterilized by "remove the uterus but leave the
ovaries." The females still go in heat and enjoy mating (tho they can't get
pregnant), so the males are scared to leave home for fear of missing some
action. :) As a neighborhood public service, might consider giving the male
a vasectomy so some neighborood females might skip a litter now and then.
This is a complicated subject. I've gone into much more detail at my
website.
Margaret S.
--
http://www.sangerfan.com Common Pet Questions
Nothing I say is professional advice. Consult your own doctor, lawyer,
veterinarian, butcher, baker, and candlestick maker.
Karen Chuplis
at puss...@cathouse.meow wrote on 1/30/05 11:22AM:
Why wouldn't you nueter the male as well?
KellyH
news:1td2spq5tjb70$.bat8gojv5tyn$.dlg@40tude.net...
>
> What has worked well in some indoor/outdoor situations, is one or more
> females that have been sterilized by "remove the uterus but leave the
> ovaries." The females still go in heat and enjoy mating (tho they can't
> get
> pregnant), so the males are scared to leave home for fear of missing some
> action. :) As a neighborhood public service, might consider giving the
> male
> a vasectomy so some neighborood females might skip a litter now and then.
>
WTF is wrong with you? Where do you get this half-baked information?
To the OP: Please get the male neutered as well. He will still spray,
roam, fight, all the negative behaviors that go along with an intact male.
--
-Kelly
kelly at farringtons dot net
"Wake up, and smell the cat food" -TMBG
Cathy Friedmann
"John Ross Mc Master" <puss...@cathouse.meow> wrote in message
news:rn5qv091nqdvq42sq...@4ax.com...
I *could've* had this situation when I adopted my male cat, & already had
two spayed females. But the male was neutered immediately.
I'd simply get the male neutered.
Cathy
Margaret S.
> "Margaret S." <em...@withheld.com> wrote in message
> news:1td2spq5tjb70$.bat8gojv5tyn$.dlg@40tude.net...
> >
> > What has worked well in some indoor/outdoor situations, is one or more
> > females that have been sterilized by "remove the uterus but leave the
> > ovaries." The females still go in heat and enjoy mating (tho they can't
> > get
> > pregnant), so the males are scared to leave home for fear of missing
some
> > action. :) As a neighborhood public service, might consider giving the
> > male
> > a vasectomy so some neighborood females might skip a litter now and
then.
/snip/
> He will still spray,
> roam, fight, all the negative behaviors that go along with an intact male.
That's why I specified "some indoor/outdoor situations." An intact or
vasectomied tom, ime, cannot be an indoor-only cat; he needs a good deal of
time outside to do his spraying and other male stuff.:)
As I said at my site:
"Sometimes neutering [a tomcat] will prevent or lessen [spraying], sometimes
not. Vasectomy will NOT lessen it; a vasectomied tom will still behave like
a full, intact tom."
And:
"Another problem [besides spraying] is that, tho some male dogs can be
satisfied with one mate, and one tom can be enough for a female cat, an
intact or vasectomied tomcat will probably need a harem of at least two or
three intact females or more to keep him happy."
Margaret S.
--
http://www.sangerfan.com Common Pet Questions
Nothing I say is professional advice. Consult your own doctor, lawyer,
veterinarian, butcher, baker, and candlestick maker. And if they all agree,
go for it. :)
Kelly
to mount her. Not to mention he would probably spray urine all over the
house. Not my idea of aromatherapy. Yuck.
Spay and neuter them all.
Kelly
"John Ross Mc Master" <puss...@cathouse.meow> wrote in message
news:rn5qv091nqdvq42sq...@4ax.com...
KellyH
> That's why I specified "some indoor/outdoor situations." An intact or
> vasectomied tom, ime, cannot be an indoor-only cat; he needs a good deal
> of
> time outside to do his spraying and other male stuff.:)
It is completely irresponsible to allow an intact tom to roam outside.
> As I said at my site:
> "Sometimes neutering [a tomcat] will prevent or lessen [spraying],
> sometimes
> not. Vasectomy will NOT lessen it; a vasectomied tom will still behave
> like
> a full, intact tom."
> And:
> "Another problem [besides spraying] is that, tho some male dogs can be
> satisfied with one mate, and one tom can be enough for a female cat, an
> intact or vasectomied tomcat will probably need a harem of at least two or
> three intact females or more to keep him happy."
>
If a vasectomied tom still has all the intact behaviors, why do it? I don't
get it.
Kelly
> On Sun, 30 Jan 2005 17:22:36 GMT, John Ross Mc Master wrote:
>
>> Spayed Female & Un-neutered Male... Would it work?
>> Or would they fight all the time? Would the male be aggressive?
>
> More likely the spayed female would become aggressive, develop male
> behaviors -- which could cause a lot of trouble.
Develop male behaviours? In what sense??
>
> What has worked well in some indoor/outdoor situations, is one or more
> females that have been sterilized by "remove the uterus but leave the
> ovaries." The females still go in heat and enjoy mating (tho they can't
> get
> pregnant), so the males are scared to leave home for fear of missing some
> action. :) As a neighborhood public service, might consider giving the
> male
> a vasectomy so some neighborood females might skip a litter now and then.
Wow how wrong you are. Mating is actually the opposite of enjoyable for
female cats. The male has backward pointing barbs on the penis, so when he
withdrawels after copulation, the barbs scrape against the females vagina.
Very painful, which is why the female generally screams and turns to swat at
the male directly after mating.
What you describe above is not the solution. It will also not stop a male
cat from wandering.
Kelly
Karen Chuplis
em...@withheld.com wrote on 1/30/05 12:47 PM:
I don't know what is up with you and vasectomies. I quite honestly hope no
one is "reading your web page" that you keep going on about. You sound like
a loonie. Why the hell would *anyone* just do a vasectomy on a tom? Cripes.
Karen Chuplis
Ke...@farringtonsNOSPAM.net wrote on 1/30/05 1:15 PM:
I swear this one is a real looney.
Mary
You are a freak.
Mary
"Kelly" <no...@goaway.com> wrote in message
news:EcaLd.746$Ck1.1...@news20.bellglobal.com...
>
> "Margaret S." <em...@withheld.com> wrote in message
> news:1td2spq5tjb70$.bat8gojv5tyn$.dlg@40tude.net...
> > On Sun, 30 Jan 2005 17:22:36 GMT, John Ross Mc Master wrote:
> >
> >> Spayed Female & Un-neutered Male... Would it work?
> >> Or would they fight all the time? Would the male be aggressive?
> >
> > More likely the spayed female would become aggressive, develop male
> > behaviors -- which could cause a lot of trouble.
>
> Develop male behaviours? In what sense??
>
> >
Margaret is a freak who thinks that female creatures without
ovaries are no longer actually female. This is why she has
tormented her own cats by having their uteri removed
but leaving their ovaries so they must suffer heats
and painful intercourse.
Mary
"Karen Chuplis" <kchu...@alltel.net> wrote in message
news:BE22A3E0.5C710%kchu...@alltel.net...
Margaret is out of her fucking mind.
Mary
The idea is to make living, breathing creatures conform to your
lovely, shining, ideology of all creatures living as God Intended.
Males must have testicles and females ovaries or they are not
All Natural and Pure and God Intended. It does not matter if
they suffer, or behave in ways that mean they cannot live indoors
where they are safe. As long as they are Pure and Intact.
Have I mentioned that Margaret is Out of her Fucking Mind?
Mary
"KellyH" <Ke...@farringtonsNOSPAM.net> wrote in message
news:364q43F...@individual.net...
> "Margaret S." <em...@withheld.com> wrote in message
> news:n7m34uxapwg1.1idhly2fkvt3$.dlg@40tude.net...
> > That's why I specified "some indoor/outdoor situations." An intact or
> > vasectomied tom, ime, cannot be an indoor-only cat; he needs a good deal
> > of
> > time outside to do his spraying and other male stuff.:)
>
> It is completely irresponsible to allow an intact tom to roam outside.
>
Not to a freak like Margaret. She is unmoved by how many
cats die every day due to overpopulation. She must have her
cats "all natural and organic." Phil's photos of the garbage cans
of euthanized kittens would only make her unhappy if they are
missing their ovaries and testes. Margaret is a cat abuser. She
has caused her own cats to suffer terribly for her idiotic
"back to nature" idiology. I hope Margaret catches an all
-natural and organic form of Bubonic Plague.
KellyH
news:nvcLd.63790$fE4.9...@twister.southeast.rr.com...
>
> Margaret is a freak who thinks that female creatures without
> ovaries are no longer actually female. This is why she has
> tormented her own cats by having their uteri removed
> but leaving their ovaries so they must suffer heats
> and painful intercourse.
>
>
OMG! What VET in their right mind would do this??
Mary
"KellyH" <Ke...@farringtonsNOSPAM.net> wrote in message
> "Mary" <crazyabo...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:nvcLd.63790$fE4.9...@twister.southeast.rr.com...
> >
> > Margaret is a freak who thinks that female creatures without
> > ovaries are no longer actually female. This is why she has
> > tormented her own cats by having their uteri removed
> > but leaving their ovaries so they must suffer heats
> > and painful intercourse.
> >
> >
>
> OMG! What VET in their right mind would do this??
> --
When Margaret advances her idiotic reproductive
crap in alt.med.veterinary, the vets do not respond.
I guess they are used to this fruitcake faction of
"all natural and organic" cat abusers and don't
want to get into it. But the fact that they do not
condemn her practice eggs her on.
Karen Chuplis
Ke...@farringtonsNOSPAM.net wrote on 1/30/05 3:59 PM:
> "Mary" <crazyabo...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:nvcLd.63790$fE4.9...@twister.southeast.rr.com...
>>
>> Margaret is a freak who thinks that female creatures without
>> ovaries are no longer actually female. This is why she has
>> tormented her own cats by having their uteri removed
>> but leaving their ovaries so they must suffer heats
>> and painful intercourse.
>>
>>
>
> OMG! What VET in their right mind would do this??
That's what I wondered too.
KellyH
> Not to a freak like Margaret. She is unmoved by how many
> cats die every day due to overpopulation. She must have her
> cats "all natural and organic." Phil's photos of the garbage cans
> of euthanized kittens would only make her unhappy if they are
> missing their ovaries and testes. Margaret is a cat abuser. She
> has caused her own cats to suffer terribly for her idiotic
> "back to nature" idiology. I hope Margaret catches an all
> -natural and organic form of Bubonic Plague.
>
>
Ugh. How disgusting. Is she living vicariously through her cats' sex lives?
Just about every unspayed female we get at the shelter over the age of two
is skinny and unhealthy. All of their resources get put into going into
heat and pumping out kittens. Poor things barely have anything left for
themselves. As soon as they are spayed, there is such a dramatic change.
They put on weight, and honestly, seem relieved.
Unneutered, mature males stink, to be frank, and do not play well with
others. It takes at least a few weeks until we can even let them out with
other cats. Sometimes they come in with nasty wounds from fighting and are
at great risk for FIV. When we're running a FIV/FeLV test on a beat-up tom,
it's time to pray that thing isn't positive.
Margaret S.
/snip/
> Just about every unspayed female we get at the shelter over the age of two
> is skinny and unhealthy. All of their resources get put into going into
> heat and pumping out kittens.
Not if they've had their uterus removed. "Remove the uterus but leave the
ovaries" prevents pregnancy. (As does tubal ligation, tho I've been told
there are more safety issues with tubals: ask your vet. I'll try to add more
on tubals at my site.)
Margaret S.
/snip/
> > OMG! What VET in their right mind would do this??
>
> That's what I wondered too.
That's the bottom line, isn't it?
I've lived in several parts of the US and dealt with quite a few vets, and
none of them had any problem with "remove the uterus but leave the ovaries."
One advised that as being safer than tubal ligation.
Karen Chuplis
em...@withheld.com wrote on 1/30/05 4:35 PM:
> On Sun, 30 Jan 2005 17:18:39 -0500, KellyH wrote:
> /snip/
>
>> Just about every unspayed female we get at the shelter over the age of two
>> is skinny and unhealthy. All of their resources get put into going into
>> heat and pumping out kittens.
>
>
> Not if they've had their uterus removed. "Remove the uterus but leave the
> ovaries" prevents pregnancy. (As does tubal ligation, tho I've been told
> there are more safety issues with tubals: ask your vet. I'll try to add more
> on tubals at my site.)
>
>
>
> Margaret S.
You really are certifiably nuts. I'm sorry, but that is the way it is.
Margaret S.
> in article n7m34uxapwg1.1idhly2fkvt3$.d...@40tude.net, Margaret S. at
> em...@withheld.com wrote on 1/30/05 12:47 PM:
>
> > On Sun, 30 Jan 2005 13:16:51 -0500, KellyH wrote:
> >
> >> "Margaret S." <em...@withheld.com> wrote in message
> >> news:1td2spq5tjb70$.bat8gojv5tyn$.dlg@40tude.net...
/snip/
> >>> As a neighborhood public service, might consider giving the
> >>> male a vasectomy so some neighborood females might skip a litter
> >>> now and then.
> Why the hell would *anyone* just do a vasectomy on a tom?
As I said above. :) If a neighborhood female happens to mate only with the
vasectomied tom (as can happen in some neighborhoods, at least
occasionally), he may bring her out of that heat without getting her
pregnant. So she gets to skip having a litter that season (tho not safe for
repeated use, perhaps: ask your vet.)
Not much other good reason for spending money on a vasectomy, sfaik. On my
site I mentioned a few bad reasons, but I'm not going into complicated
issues here on Usenet, where posts get snipped out of context (and sometimes
misrepresented).
Margaret S.
/snip/
> they must suffer heats
> and painful intercourse.
From what I've read and seen, the idea that cats need pain to induce
ovulation seems a convenient urban legend. People who say that, never seem
to cite any actual studies to support it.
Margaret S.
--
http://www.sangerfan.com Common Pet Questions
Nothing I say is professional advice. Consult your own doctor,
lawyer,veterinarian, butcher, baker, and candlestick maker.
Mary
She advocates this practice, but does not have the guts to say why.
Mary
> On Sun, 30 Jan 2005 21:40:35 GMT, Mary wrote:
> /snip/
>
> > they must suffer heats
> > and painful intercourse.
>
>
> From what I've read and seen, the idea that cats need pain to induce
> ovulation seems a convenient urban legend. People who say that, never seem
> to cite any actual studies to support it.
>
>
Margaret, have you seen a cat penis? Cat vaginas are similar to human ones.
I am going to go out on a limb here and assume you have a vagina. Go
LOOK at the spiny penis of a cat and put two and two together. It is
a fact that sexual intercourse is necessary for ovulation in cats, and it is
a fact that the spiny penis of a male cat is painful to the female. Simple
observation. Now then, freak, why are you so preoccupied with your
cats' genitals? Why must Kitty get laid? Hmmm? You won't answer
because you can't without sounding like the abusive fruitcake you
are. How about you just focus your obsession you your own
sex life, hmmm?
KellyH
> I've lived in several parts of the US and dealt with quite a few vets, and
> none of them had any problem with "remove the uterus but leave the
> ovaries."
> One advised that as being safer than tubal ligation.
>
But not safer than a regular spay. I'm going to have to ask the shelter vet
about this next time I see her just to see what her reaction is.
KellyH
> As I said above. :) If a neighborhood female happens to mate only with the
> vasectomied tom (as can happen in some neighborhoods, at least
> occasionally), he may bring her out of that heat without getting her
> pregnant. So she gets to skip having a litter that season (tho not safe
> for
> repeated use, perhaps: ask your vet.)
>
That's a pretty stupid reason. If I had a neighborhood unspayed female, I'd
get her spayed.
> Not much other good reason for spending money on a vasectomy, sfaik.
Exactly. Just get a regular neuter.
BarB
>Just about every unspayed female we get at the shelter over the age of two
>is skinny and unhealthy. All of their resources get put into going into
>heat and pumping out kittens. Poor things barely have anything left for
>themselves. As soon as they are spayed, there is such a dramatic change.
>They put on weight, and honestly, seem relieved.
>
>Unneutered, mature males stink, to be frank, and do not play well with
>others. It takes at least a few weeks until we can even let them out with
>other cats. Sometimes they come in with nasty wounds from fighting and are
>at great risk for FIV. When we're running a FIV/FeLV test on a beat-up tom,
>it's time to pray that thing isn't positive.
That's my shelter experience as well. The only time a vasectomy seems
logical is when you are working with a feral colony. The dominant
male can take the females you can't catch out of heat.
I've been trying for a year to trap one female through several
litters. She's seen her kittens trapped and she's too smart to get in
that trap no matter how hungry she is. Those who have already been
spayed or neutered get in the traps instead <sigh>. If I can get that
big male, whom I know is the father of them all, I'm going to try to
find a vet who will do a vasectomy.
BarB
Margaret S.
/snip/
> The only time a vasectomy seems
> logical is when you are working with a feral colony. The dominant
> male can take the females you can't catch out of heat.
>
> I've been trying for a year to trap one female through several
> litters. She's seen her kittens trapped and she's too smart to get in
> that trap no matter how hungry she is. Those who have already been
> spayed or neutered get in the traps instead <sigh>. If I can get that
> big male, whom I know is the father of them all, I'm going to try to
> find a vet who will do a vasectomy.
>
> BarB
Vasectomy has worked in other feral colonies.
I don't know how long it might take to find a vet in your area who can do
vasectomy on a cat. You might begin your shopping early, so as to have a vet
located (and compare prices) before you catch the big male.
Cheryl
rec.pets.cats.health+behav
(news:1cwwnwhqgoup9.y...@40tude.net):
> As I said above. :) If a neighborhood female happens to mate
> only with the vasectomied tom (as can happen in some
> neighborhoods, at least occasionally), he may bring her out of
> that heat without getting her pregnant. So she gets to skip
> having a litter that season (tho not safe for repeated use,
> perhaps: ask your vet.)
IIRC, you're confusing a cats heat with a dogs heat. It isn't like a
"season". I don't understand why you keep promoting this very
dangerous and unnecessary and UNCOMFORTABLE "alternative" as
something that someone should do. It makes no sense at all.
--
Cheryl
Margaret S.
> "Margaret S." <em...@withheld.com> wrote in message
> >
> > If a neighborhood female happens to mate only with the vasectomied tom
(as can happen in some neighborhoods, at least occasionally), he may bring
her out of that heat without getting her pregnant.
/snip/
> That's a pretty stupid reason. If I had a neighborhood unspayed female,
I'd get her spayed.
Can you catch all the loose females in your neighborhood? What if some of
them are wearing ID, and the owner does not give permission for surgery on
his animal?
A vasectomy on a male you do legally own, is something you can legally do.
Cheryl
rec.pets.cats.health+behav
(news:7evqv0hta226t32ek...@news.west.earthlink.net):
> That's my shelter experience as well. The only time a vasectomy
> seems logical is when you are working with a feral colony. The
> dominant male can take the females you can't catch out of heat.
>
> I've been trying for a year to trap one female through several
> litters. She's seen her kittens trapped and she's too smart to
> get in that trap no matter how hungry she is. Those who have
> already been spayed or neutered get in the traps instead <sigh>.
> If I can get that big male, whom I know is the father of them
> all, I'm going to try to find a vet who will do a vasectomy.
BarB, even if you keep a male for "mating purposes", another intact
male is still going to come along and mate with the unspayed females.
I think the vasectomy idea isn't worth it. He'll still fight, and
bring with it all of the other problems.
--
Cheryl
Margaret S.
> "Margaret S." <em...@withheld.com> wrote in message
> news:17n6tqgqirgs2$.15upnzh4lf8p1.dlg@40tude.net...
> > On Sun, 30 Jan 2005 21:40:35 GMT, Mary wrote:
> > /snip/
> >
> > > they must suffer heats
> > > and painful intercourse.
> >
> >
> > From what I've read and seen, the idea that cats need pain to induce
ovulation seems a convenient urban legend. People who say that, never seem
to cite any actual studies to support it.
/snip/
> Margaret, have you seen a cat penis? Cat vaginas are similar to human
ones.
Aw, you're just anthropomorphizing. :)
>It is a fact that sexual intercourse is necessary for ovulation in cats,
and it is a fact that the spiny penis of a male cat is painful to the
female.
Um ... do you have a study to support that?
Margaret S.
--
http://www.sangerfan.com
BarB
wrote:
>Not much other good reason for spending money on a vasectomy, sfaik. On my
>site I mentioned a few bad reasons, but I'm not going into complicated
>issues here on Usenet, where posts get snipped out of context (and sometimes
>misrepresented).
It really is bad manners to direct people to your website to continue
the discussion. Snipping is the correct way to keep conversation
focused on the point you want to discuss.
My question to you is have you had a vasectomy done on a cat? If so,
what did it cost? I've tried looking for one who would do it in the
Dallas area, with little success. I would consider it for the feral
colony I support, but most vets won't handle a feral in a trap at
all. Those who will, have never done vasectomies.
BarB
John Ross Mc Master
I just asked a simple question and had no idea it would get out of
hand. You're right, continuing this thread is in bad taste.
Thanks people for the range of opinion.
BarB
<Ke...@farringtonsNOSPAM.net> wrote:
>"Margaret S." wrote :
>> I've lived in several parts of the US and dealt with quite a few vets, and
>> none of them had any problem with "remove the uterus but leave the
>> ovaries." One advised that as being safer than tubal ligation.
>>
>
>But not safer than a regular spay. I'm going to have to ask the shelter vet
>about this next time I see her just to see what her reaction is.
>
I'll be asking this of several vets I work with also.
A female in heat is in misery, total agony. I've dealt with a
number. The poor babies cry all night and there's nothing you can do
except hold them to try to relieve their pain. I imagine it as being
like the worst burning bladder infection ever experienced.
Why anyone would do it is beyond me. What does it do for the poor
female except give her the misery of mating without the joy of her
kittens?
BarB
Margaret S.
> On Sun, 30 Jan 2005 19:08:39 -0500, "KellyH"
> <Ke...@farringtonsNOSPAM.net> wrote:
>
> >"Margaret S." wrote :
>
> >> I've lived in several parts of the US and dealt with quite a few vets,
and none of them had any problem with "remove the uterus but leave the
ovaries." One advised that as being safer than tubal ligation.
> >
> >But not safer than a regular spay.
Probably not, at least on issues of later uterus infection/pyo.
> > I'm going to have to ask the shelter vet
> >about this next time I see her just to see what her reaction is.
> I'll be asking this of several vets I work with also.
You might also ask them, for an owner who will NEVER agree to desexing his
cat, is it better next year for that owner to have one sterilized cat with
ovaries, or to still have that cat unsterilized plus a dozen kittens
unsterilized.
> A female in heat is in misery, total agony. I've dealt with a
> number. The poor babies cry all night and there's nothing you can do
> except hold them to try to relieve their pain.
You must be talking about a female who is not allowed to mate. On my site
I've talked about how it is for a female who is allowed to mate.
Margaret S.
> On Sun, 30 Jan 2005 22:43:08 GMT, "Margaret S." <em...@withheld.com>
> wrote:
/snip/
Re rudeness, you must have a good killfile, if you've missed all the rude
posts here. I don't usually killfile.
> My question to you is have you had a vasectomy done on a cat? If so,
> what did it cost?
I haven't shopped for it lately. My impression is that it might be a bit
more expensive as it is more difficult, but OTOH someone might give you a
discount as you're doing a feral project. Or you might check at some local
universities that have veterinary medicine programs. I understand that they
often work with feral projects.
> I've tried looking for one who would do it in the
> Dallas area, with little success. I would consider it for the feral
> colony I support, but most vets won't handle a feral in a trap at
> all. Those who will, have never done vasectomies.
I'm sure Texas A&M is too far for you, but perhaps someone from their
project could give you a lead.
http://www.cvm.tamu.edu/afcat/manageprog.htm
Margaret S.
> In article <17n6tqgqirgs2$.15upnzh4...@40tude.net>,
> "Margaret S." <em...@withheld.com> wrote:
/snip/
> > From what I've read and seen, the idea that cats need pain to induce
ovulation seems a convenient urban legend. People who say that, never seem
to cite any actual studies to support it.
>
> Not looking very hard, are you?
Have you seen any actual studies, or even mentions of any? The "About.com"
site just gave a hint of the legend; if there were any real support, I
expect they'd have cited it.
BarB
wrote:
>
>You might also ask them, for an owner who will NEVER agree to desexing his
>cat, is it better next year for that owner to have one sterilized cat with
>ovaries, or to still have that cat unsterilized plus a dozen kittens
>unsterilized.
With the people I deal with who adopt cats, it's always a question of
cost. They may try to rationalize a no-spay position, but when you
offer a low-cost spay, it's surprising how their position changes. :)
If we adopt one out that's too young to spay, I follow up later with
an offer to spay her at a vet who gives us a discount price. That's
about 1/4 of what some vets charge.
I'd really like to hold kittens until they were spayed, but sometimes
we have to find homes when we can and hope for the best :(.
>> A female in heat is in misery, total agony. I've dealt with a
>> number. The poor babies cry all night and there's nothing you can do
>> except hold them to try to relieve their pain.
>
>
>You must be talking about a female who is not allowed to mate. On my site
>I've talked about how it is for a female who is allowed to mate.
>
Yes, I'm talking about those who we can't mate. None of our foster
homes is in a position to keep an intact male.
BarB
Margaret S.
> "Margaret S." <em...@withheld.com> wrote in message
> news:1s1ntkd85xg10$.1tqnqlf4w7ktu.dlg@40tude.net...
/snip/
> I'm going to have to ask the shelter vet about this next time I see her
just to see what her reaction is.
If she has time, I would appreciate some vet feedback on this hypothetical
poster child. (No, MS and Zz, these are not cats of mine or my neighbors, it
is a construct I'm developing. :)
"Granny" is a middle-aged indoor/outdoor cat who has been producing litters
for several years. She and several other cats have a very good relationship:
grooming each other, sleeping in a pile on the owner's bed, sharing a big
food bowl. Everyone's health is good, no one is spraying or displaying other
signs of stress or aggression. All have all available vaccinations and
tested FIV negative. Her mate, "Grandpa", uses the cat door and does his
spraying outdoors. "Granny" does not have to wander or mate with strange
toms, as "Grandpa" is always ready for her. (The local vet says "Grandpa"
has negligible chance of being bit by an FIV-positive cat in this area.) The
_only_ problem this household has is pregnancy.
"Granny" is already too old for significant mammary cancer benefits from
spaying. If she developed negative side-effects from spaying such as "spay
incontinence", immoderate appetite, aggressive behavior toward the younger
cats, and/or spraying -- it could spoil the currently-peaceful dynamics of
the whole group. The owners take good care of routine health maintenance,
but would not be able to handle life-long hormone replacement therapy, food
rationing, and Feliway etc.
Being too old for the mammary cancer benefits, what other _medical_ benefits
might Granny expect from spaying to offset the possible negative
side-effects and danger of loss of her current problem-free situation?
Margaret S.
--
http://www.sangerfan.com
Margaret S.
> On Mon, 31 Jan 2005 02:17:47 GMT, "Margaret S." <em...@withheld.com>
> wrote:
>
> >
> >You might also ask them, for an owner who will NEVER agree to desexing
his
> >cat, is it better next year for that owner to have one sterilized cat
with
> >ovaries, or to still have that cat unsterilized plus a dozen kittens
> >unsterilized.
>
> With the people I deal with who adopt cats, it's always a question of
> cost. They may try to rationalize a no-spay position, but when you
> offer a low-cost spay, it's surprising how their position changes. :)
I've seen that too. :) But there are some people who really do hold to their
principles, and the only way they would sterilize was if we informed them of
a non-desexing alternative. (I've heard of one dog owner who called 12 vets
to find one who would do a vasectomy on his dog, and got it done, in spite
of the higher cost.)
I think, the more options that are widely known, the more sterilizations
will get done, which is the important thing.
/snip/
> >> A female in heat is in misery, total agony. I've dealt with a
> >> number. The poor babies cry all night and there's nothing you can do
> >> except hold them to try to relieve their pain.
> >
> >
> >You must be talking about a female who is not allowed to mate. On my site
> >I've talked about how it is for a female who is allowed to mate.
> >
>
> Yes, I'm talking about those who we can't mate. None of our foster
> homes is in a position to keep an intact male.
For your young females, I suppose you try to spay them as early as possible
anyway, for the tumor prevention benefits? I'm not suggesting either letting
shelter cats mate recreationally :), or preventing a female in heat from
mating. But when an owner has his own intact male and female so she does not
have any frustration time when in heat, things are quite different.
Mary
> On Sun, 30 Jan 2005 23:42:15 GMT, Mary wrote:
>
> > "Margaret S." <em...@withheld.com> wrote in message
> > news:17n6tqgqirgs2$.15upnzh4lf8p1.dlg@40tude.net...
> > > On Sun, 30 Jan 2005 21:40:35 GMT, Mary wrote:
> > > /snip/
> > >
> > > > they must suffer heats
> > > > and painful intercourse.
> > >
> > >
> > > From what I've read and seen, the idea that cats need pain to induce
> ovulation seems a convenient urban legend. People who say that, never seem
> to cite any actual studies to support it.
>
> /snip/
>
> > Margaret, have you seen a cat penis? Cat vaginas are similar to human
> ones.
>
> Aw, you're just anthropomorphizing. :)
>
>
I am? I see. Thank you for enlightening me. Now then, how are
they different?
> >It is a fact that sexual intercourse is necessary for ovulation in cats,
> and it is a fact that the spiny penis of a male cat is painful to the
> female.
>
>
> Um ... do you have a study to support that?
>
Um, do you have a study to prove that your asshole is
connected to your colon? lol!
Mary
"Diane L. Schirf" <del...@spammindspringnot.com> wrote in message
news:NlgLd.4858$Ix....@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net...
> > > and painful intercourse.
> >
> >
> > From what I've read and seen, the idea that cats need pain to induce
> > ovulation seems a convenient urban legend. People who say that, never
seem
> > to cite any actual studies to support it.
>
>
She's still outside looking for that hole in the ground
that she thinks is her ass. :)
Mary
"John Ross Mc Master" <puss...@cathouse.meow> wrote in message
news:sh2rv0tfep8277nga...@4ax.com...
"In bad taste?" You must be out of your mind.
Mary
> On Sun, 30 Jan 2005 19:10:17 -0500, KellyH wrote:
> > "Margaret S." <em...@withheld.com> wrote in message
> > news:1cwwnwhqgoup9.y...@40tude.net... /snip/
> > >
> > > If a neighborhood female happens to mate only with the vasectomied tom
> (as can happen in some neighborhoods, at least occasionally), he may bring
> her out of that heat without getting her pregnant.
>
> /snip/
>
> > That's a pretty stupid reason. If I had a neighborhood unspayed female,
> I'd get her spayed.
>
>
> Can you catch all the loose females in your neighborhood? What if some of
> them are wearing ID, and the owner does not give permission for surgery on
> his animal?
>
> A vasectomy on a male you do legally own, is something you can legally do.
>
She can also remove his testicles.
Mary
"Margaret S." <em...@withheld.com> wrote
> I've seen that too. :) But there are some people who really do hold to
their
> principles, and the only way they would sterilize was if we informed them
of
> a non-desexing alternative. (I've heard of one dog owner who called 12
vets
> to find one who would do a vasectomy on his dog, and got it done, in spite
> of the higher cost.)
>
Where do you live?
Margaret S.
> "Margaret S." <em...@withheld.com> wrote
/snip/
> > (I've heard of one dog owner who called 12 vets to find one who would do
a vasectomy on his dog, and got it done, in spite of the higher cost.)
>
>
> Where do you live?
I don't post personal info on Usenet, but I'll put some of my background on
my website. And I'll link to it from my Flame War Zone, since I've answered
some of your flames there instead of here.
I'll grant that some of my vet info may be out of date, since I no longer
have animals of my own. When I post about 'my animals' or 'in my experience'
I mean those I had in the past, or observe elsewhere.
Some years ago I had to leave my home state and begin a lot of travelling,
so I left my animals at my home with a long-term house-sitter and of course
did not replace them.
The man who called 12 vets to get a vasectomy for his dog was in ranching
country.
Margaret S.
--
http://www.sangerfan.com Common Pet Questions
and Flame War Zone
zuz...@webtv.net
>Would it work? Or would they fight all the
>time? Would the male be aggressive? Let
>me know if you've ever been in this
>situation. Thanks as always!
Don't anthropomorphize the male. He'll be a great cat even without the
testicles (he won't miss them and *won't* be "less of a male") and will
be at much less risk for contracting diseases, injury and abcesses from
fighting. He also won't be able to contribute to the out of control
overpopulation problem. Just because you spay the female doesn't mean he
won't find one that isn't fixed, and more unwanted kittens will result.
If both cats aren't fixed he could very well make life miserable for the
female.
Another reason to neuter is to eliminate or minimize spraying behavior.
The smell of tomcat urine is unbearable, and having the stench permeate
your home is extremely undesirable.
Also, ignore the freak posting as "Margaret S." She's got some serious
mental issues and has some very strange ideas with regard to how to
treat cats. Her "spay but leave the ovaries" garbage she posts ad
nauseum has been proven to be harmful and put females at risk.
Get both cats fixed. They'll be happier and healthier.
Megan
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do
nothing."
-Edmund Burke
Learn The TRUTH About Declawing
http://www.stopdeclaw.com
Zuzu's Cats Photo Album:
http://www.PictureTrail.com/zuzu22
"Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one
elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and
splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then
providence moves too. A whole stream of events issues from the decision,
raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and
material assistance, which no man could have dreamt would have come his
way."
- W.H. Murray
Margaret S.
/snip/
> He also won't be able to contribute to the out of control
> overpopulation problem. Just because you spay the female doesn't mean he
> won't find one that isn't fixed, and more unwanted kittens will result.
Not if he has a vasectomy. In that case, he might be able to keep an
unspayed neighborhood female from getting pregnant this heat period, thus
actually helping the population situation. (Tho repeated vasectomied matings
with a female who still has a uterus might not be healthy for her; ask your
vet.)
If he is simply castrated, then that neighborhood female may have to wander
farther to find a mate, or settle for one who isn't vaccinated.
/snip/
> Her "spay but leave the ovaries" garbage she posts ad
> nauseum has been proven to be harmful
Do you have any studies matching spayed animals with "remove the uterus but
leave the ovaries and let them mate in a normal indoor/outdoor home"
animals? That's what would be required for 'proven'. Not just you posting
some out-of-context soundbytes that do not address the actual case.
Margaret S.
--
http://www.sangerfan.com Alternatives to Spaying/Neutering,
Common Pet Questions, and Flame War Zone for answering you and M.S. :)
KellyH
news:2r8rv05gilh0hbeam...@news.west.earthlink.net...
>
> With the people I deal with who adopt cats, it's always a question of
> cost. They may try to rationalize a no-spay position, but when you
> offer a low-cost spay, it's surprising how their position changes. :)
> If we adopt one out that's too young to spay, I follow up later with
> an offer to spay her at a vet who gives us a discount price. That's
> about 1/4 of what some vets charge.
>
I find that true, also. Most of the time when people have unspayed females,
it is because of financial reasons, not because they don't want to spay. We
or one of our partner org's, will offer low-cost or free spaying, which no
one has ever turned down. The people are usually looking for help after
their cat has had her first litter.
I have ran across people who won't neuter their males, but normally it's
men.
Our shelter adopts out 100% spayed/neutered cats. We have a vet who does
pediactric spays/neutered at 8 weeks, so even all of our kittens go home
spayed/neutered.
--
-Kelly
kelly at farringtons dot net
"Wake up, and smell the cat food" -TMBG
KellyH
>
> "Granny" is a middle-aged indoor/outdoor cat who has been producing
> litters
> for several years. She and several other cats have a very good
> relationship:
> grooming each other, sleeping in a pile on the owner's bed, sharing a big
> food bowl. Everyone's health is good, no one is spraying or displaying
> other
> signs of stress or aggression. All have all available vaccinations and
> tested FIV negative. Her mate, "Grandpa", uses the cat door and does his
> spraying outdoors. "Granny" does not have to wander or mate with strange
> toms, as "Grandpa" is always ready for her. (The local vet says "Grandpa"
> has negligible chance of being bit by an FIV-positive cat in this area.)
> The
> _only_ problem this household has is pregnancy.
<snip>
I already know what she would say. Spay the female and neuter the male. We
had a ten year old cat come into the shelter who was unspayed. Honestly, I
was surprised the cat was that old and still alive, being unspayed. She
looked more like 15-17 years old, but she was an owner turn-in, so we knew
how old. Owner did not spay the girls, but neutered the males because of
finances. This cat was terribly underweight because of not being spayed.
In your scenario, how does the vet *know* the male has a negligible chance
of getting FIV? Has she tested every cat in the neighborhood?
Too me, I don't picture these two cats as a happily mated pair. I see poor
"Granny" suffering, having to mate because of drive and instinct. Poor
thing going into heat over and over again. I see "Grandpa" getting eaten by
an animal, beat up by another tom, run over, being the nusance of the
neighborhood with his spraying. Cats deserve a better life than that.
KellyH
>
> I don't post personal info on Usenet, but I'll put some of my background
> on
> my website. And I'll link to it from my Flame War Zone, since I've
> answered
> some of your flames there instead of here.
Please answer posts here, not elsewhere. Don't force people to go to your
website.
KellyH
> Not if he has a vasectomy. In that case, he might be able to keep an
> unspayed neighborhood female from getting pregnant this heat period, thus
> actually helping the population situation. (Tho repeated vasectomied
> matings
> with a female who still has a uterus might not be healthy for her; ask
> your
> vet.)
Or he could neuter his cat and keep him inside. Sheesh.
Mary
"KellyH" <Ke...@farringtonsNOSPAM.net> wrote in message
news:366uhgF...@individual.net...
> "Margaret S." <em...@withheld.com> wrote in message
> news:19ot4k2pot6fi.6...@40tude.net...
> >
> > I don't post personal info on Usenet, but I'll put some of my background
> > on
> > my website. And I'll link to it from my Flame War Zone, since I've
> > answered
> > some of your flames there instead of here.
>
> Please answer posts here, not elsewhere. Don't force people to go to your
> website.
>
> --
She knows she cannot defend her asshole philosophy that is
harmful to cats and downright cruel. Margaret is a sick fuck.
Mary
"KellyH" <Ke...@farringtonsNOSPAM.net> wrote in message
Your vision is clear and true.
Margaret S.
> "Margaret S." <em...@withheld.com> wrote in message
> news:efc3keyez8f6.1s...@40tude.net...
/snip/
> I already know what she would say. Spay the female and neuter the male.
We
> had a ten year old cat come into the shelter who was unspayed. Honestly, I
> was surprised the cat was that old and still alive, being unspayed. She
> looked more like 15-17 years old, but she was an owner turn-in, so we knew
> how old. Owner did not spay the girls, but neutered the males because of
> finances. This cat was terribly underweight because of not being spayed.
I suppose you mean, underweight because of having too many litters?
This is why I try to keep my Usenet posts short and refer people to my
website. Material on Usenet gets snipped out of context. I was not comparing
fertile vs sterile, ie many litters vs no litters, but sterilization by
desexing vs sterilization by "remove the uterus but leave the ovaries" (or
perhaps tubal ligation; consult vet).
Also, my disclaimer about "Granny" being a hypothetical construct in works,
was snipped and not mentioned in your reply; doubtless now some flamers will
begin accusing me of etc etc.
/snip/
> Too me, I don't picture these two cats as a happily mated pair. I see
poor "Granny" suffering, having to mate because of drive and instinct. Poor
thing going into heat over and over again.
Perhaps you're thinking of cats who are PREVENTED from mating. In my
experience and reading, cats allowed 'sterile matings' do not have stressful
heats, and may go several weeks or months before another heat period.
Margaret S.
--
http://www.sangerfan.com Alternatives to Spaying / Neutering
KellyH
>
> Also, my disclaimer about "Granny" being a hypothetical construct in
> works,
> was snipped and not mentioned in your reply; doubtless now some flamers
> will
> begin accusing me of etc etc.
>
I don't get what you are saying. It's wrong to snip part of a post? I do
that to save space. Anyone can see your original post.
> This is why I try to keep my Usenet posts short and refer people to my
> website. Material on Usenet gets snipped out of context. I was not
> comparing
> fertile vs sterile, ie many litters vs no litters, but sterilization by
> desexing vs sterilization by "remove the uterus but leave the ovaries" (or
> perhaps tubal ligation; consult vet).
In my opinion, it would be better to fully "desex" as you put it, both the
male and female of this hypothetical situation. If you give the male a
vasectomy, and leave the ovaries of the female, you still have the negatives
of an intact male and female. The female keeps going into heat, and the
male still sprays, fights, etc. As I've said before, WHAT'S THE POINT????
>
> I suppose you mean, underweight because of having too many litters?
>
No, this cat actually only had one litter. The males of the house were
neutered. She was underweight from going into heat over and over again.
> Perhaps you're thinking of cats who are PREVENTED from mating. In my
> experience and reading, cats allowed 'sterile matings' do not have
> stressful
> heats, and may go several weeks or months before another heat period.
>
Read what you wrote. The cat will go into heat again in several weeks or
months. Is that fair to the cat? She could be spayed and spared this
misery.
Mary
"KellyH" <Ke...@farringtonsNOSPAM.net> wrote :
> No, this cat actually only had one litter. The males of the house were
> neutered. She was underweight from going into heat over and over again.
>
> > Perhaps you're thinking of cats who are PREVENTED from mating. In my
> > experience and reading, cats allowed 'sterile matings' do not have
> > stressful
> > heats, and may go several weeks or months before another heat period.
> >
>
> Read what you wrote. The cat will go into heat again in several weeks or
> months. Is that fair to the cat? She could be spayed and spared this
> misery.
>
hot and bothered during heat and just loves that spiny penis.
Have I mentioned that Margaret is a fucking moron?
Margaret S.
> "Margaret S." <em...@withheld.com> wrote in message
> news:v81nnh4oy2wz$.1nw9kpytijn6r.dlg@40tude.net...
> >
> > Also, my disclaimer about "Granny" being a hypothetical construct in
> > works,
> > was snipped and not mentioned in your reply; doubtless now some flamers
> > will
> > begin accusing me of etc etc.
> >
>
> I don't get what you are saying. It's wrong to snip part of a post? I do
> that to save space. Anyone can see your original post.
If they bother to look, and if they can successfully use Google Groups
interface. There's also the possibility I might make an error. :) I want my
errors where I can correct them, instead of preserved forever at GG.
> > This is why I try to keep my Usenet posts short and refer people to my
> > website. Material on Usenet gets snipped out of context. I was not
> > comparing
> > fertile vs sterile, ie many litters vs no litters, but sterilization by
> > desexing vs sterilization by "remove the uterus but leave the ovaries"
(or
> > perhaps tubal ligation; consult vet).
>
> In my opinion, it would be better to fully "desex" as you put it, both the
male and female of this hypothetical situation. If you give the male a
vasectomy, and leave the ovaries of the female, you still have the negatives
of an intact male and female.
I wouldn't use a vasectomied tom & a female with a uterus as an on-going
combination, for medical reasons too complicated for Usenet. I've talked
about that under the question, "Why not do only the male, as with human
couples?"
/snip/
> > I suppose you mean, underweight because of having too many litters?
> >
>
> No, this cat actually only had one litter. The males of the house were
> neutered. She was underweight from going into heat over and over again.
That is awful! But how did she survive so many frustrated heats without
developing pyometra or other uterus problems? Are you sure she wasn't
malnourished or having other problems? What about the other females?
> > Perhaps you're thinking of cats who are PREVENTED from mating. In my
experience and reading, cats allowed 'sterile matings' do not have
stressful heats, and may go several weeks or months before another heat
period.
>
> Read what you wrote. The cat will go into heat again in several weeks or
> months. Is that fair to the cat? She could be spayed and spared this
> misery.
Read what I wrote. With an immediate 'sterile mating', the heat is not
stressful, not "misery" (and very short, ime).
KellyH
> That is awful! But how did she survive so many frustrated heats without
> developing pyometra or other uterus problems? Are you sure she wasn't
> malnourished or having other problems? What about the other females?
>
The cats were all in ill health in general. Had not seen a vet in years.
The other females were younger, around 3-5 yrs. They were also skinny.
Could have been some malnutrition, but the males were a good weight. I
honestly don't know how this cat survived without developing pyometra.
> I wouldn't use a vasectomied tom & a female with a uterus as an on-going
> combination, for medical reasons too complicated for Usenet. I've talked
> about that under the question, "Why not do only the male, as with human
> couples?"
>
Then what would have been your solution for hypothetical Granny and Grandpa
cat?
> Read what I wrote. With an immediate 'sterile mating', the heat is not
> stressful, not "misery" (and very short, ime).
>
This is where I strongly disagree.
Margaret S.
> "Margaret S." <em...@withheld.com> wrote in message
> news:1d0t40ea4uqnh$.63xkysyrzuv6.dlg@40tude.net...
>
> > That is awful! But how did she survive so many frustrated heats without
> > developing pyometra or other uterus problems? Are you sure she wasn't
> > malnourished or having other problems? What about the other females?
> >
>
> The cats were all in ill health in general. Had not seen a vet in years.
> The other females were younger, around 3-5 yrs. They were also skinny.
> Could have been some malnutrition, but the males were a good weight.
Were they all fed together? If this owner couldn't afford spaying, maybe she
couldn't afford enough food to go around, and the males hogged it.
> I honestly don't know how this cat survived without developing pyometra.
Did any of the females get pyometra, or other uterus problems?
KellyH
> Were they all fed together? If this owner couldn't afford spaying, maybe
> she
> couldn't afford enough food to go around, and the males hogged it.
>
I really don't know. We just took the cats because it was an emergency
situation, they were being evicted.
> Did any of the females get pyometra, or other uterus problems?
>
They were all spayed. The vet didn't tell us the status of the cat's
uteruses (uteri?). After they were spayed and nursed back to health, they
were fine. One was hyperthyroid. Many of the cats also had dental
problems, one had cancer, one has a cauliflowered ear from an ear infection
that was never treated.
Margaret S.
> Then what would have been your solution for hypothetical Granny and
Grandpa cat?
Thanks for putting it that way! :)
I'm trying to construct a model for the sort of situation where "remove the
uterus but leave the ovaries" would be an appropriate choice -- so I can
say, "If your situation is NOT like this, better desex."
I do worry about people trying to keep a non-desexed animal in the wrong
sort of environment/lifestyle! Even if they have plenty of safe outdoor
space, some people seem so inexperienced that I wouldn't trust them with a
normal animal. Better those people should do the conventional desexing, so
they will have plenty of support on later problems.
I want to get the non-desexing information to the experienced
litter-producing owners who really need it -- without tempting inexperienced
owners into trying something they can't handle.
KellyH
> On Mon, 31 Jan 2005 15:02:48 -0500, KellyH wrote:
> /snip/
>
>> Then what would have been your solution for hypothetical Granny and
> Grandpa cat?
>
>
> Thanks for putting it that way! :)
>
> I'm trying to construct a model for the sort of situation where "remove
> the
> uterus but leave the ovaries" would be an appropriate choice -- so I can
> say, "If your situation is NOT like this, better desex."
>
> I do worry about people trying to keep a non-desexed animal in the wrong
> sort of environment/lifestyle! Even if they have plenty of safe outdoor
> space, some people seem so inexperienced that I wouldn't trust them with a
> normal animal. Better those people should do the conventional desexing, so
> they will have plenty of support on later problems.
>
> I want to get the non-desexing information to the experienced
> litter-producing owners who really need it -- without tempting
> inexperienced
> owners into trying something they can't handle.
>
>
I give. You make no sense. Still don't see why these cats can't be spayed
and neutered.
Mary
"KellyH" <Ke...@farringtonsNOSPAM.net> wrote in message
I already told you, Kelly. It's a Grand Philosophy of human
construct. The cats do not matter.
Karen Chuplis
em...@withheld.com wrote on 1/31/05 3:28 PM:
> On Mon, 31 Jan 2005 15:02:48 -0500, KellyH wrote:
> /snip/
>
>> Then what would have been your solution for hypothetical Granny and
> Grandpa cat?
>
>
> Thanks for putting it that way! :)
>
> I'm trying to construct a model for the sort of situation where "remove the
> uterus but leave the ovaries" would be an appropriate choice -- so I can
> say, "If your situation is NOT like this, better desex."
Good lord if you have to work that freakin' hard at it the futility of it
should be patent to even the simplest of people. Yeesh.
Phil P.
> Vasectomy has worked in other feral colonies.
No it doesn't. Been there done that. Spermatozoa remains in feline
ejaculates for *7 weeks* after vasectomy. If you actually knew what you are
talking about you would know that, and if you've actually worked with
ferals - which I doubt you have, you'd know a tom can do a helluva lotta
slam dunkin' in 7 weeks.
The view from your seat in the bleachers is very different from the view on
the field.
The key to reducing feral births is the *female*. Not the male.
Now pay attention and learn something, so people might stop laughing at your
utter stupidity.
100 female + 100 males = 100 litters. Are you with me so far?
100 females + 50 males = 100 litters. Gee, how about that!
I'll make this very easy for you to understand.
100 females + 1 male = 100 litters.
Now watch this:
100 males + 1 female = 1 litter.
Do you get the picture or do you need color slides?
You're so wrapped up in your self-reinforcing delusion about vasectomy,
oophorectomy (that's ovariectomy to you), and tubal ligation that your
missing the most important and ultimately determining factor against these
surgeries. Can you guess what that is? I don't think you have a clue.
NONE of these surgeries BENEFIT THE CAT.
All your bullshit about vasectomies and tubals is really about *you* and
*your* hangups and neurotic phobias and not about the cats.
Phil P.
> On Sun, 30 Jan 2005 14:46:57 -0600, Karen Chuplis wrote:
>
> > in article n7m34uxapwg1.1idhly2fkvt3$.d...@40tude.net, Margaret S. at
> > em...@withheld.com wrote on 1/30/05 12:47 PM:
> >
> > > On Sun, 30 Jan 2005 13:16:51 -0500, KellyH wrote:
> > >
> > >> "Margaret S." <em...@withheld.com> wrote in message
> /snip/
> > >>> As a neighborhood public service, might consider giving the
> > >>> male a vasectomy so some neighborood females might skip a litter
> > >>> now and then.
>
>
> > Why the hell would *anyone* just do a vasectomy on a tom?
>
>
> As I said above. :) If a neighborhood female happens to mate only with the
> vasectomied tom
Yeah, if he's the *only* tom in a few mile radius! ROTFL! Done a lot of
work with ferals, have you? I don't think so.
Phil P.
> On Sun, 30 Jan 2005 19:10:17 -0500, KellyH wrote:
> > "Margaret S." <em...@withheld.com> wrote in message
> > >
> > > If a neighborhood female happens to mate only with the vasectomied tom
> her out of that heat without getting her pregnant.
>
> /snip/
>
> > That's a pretty stupid reason. If I had a neighborhood unspayed female,
> I'd get her spayed.
>
>
> Can you catch all the loose females in your neighborhood?
Another math lesson:
100 female + 100 males = 100 litters. Are you with me so far?
100 females + 50 males = 100 litters. Gee, how about that!
I'll make this very easy for you to understand.
100 females + 1 male = 100 litters.
Now watch this:
100 males + 1 female = 1 litter.
Did you get it this time?
What if some of
> them are wearing ID, and the owner does not give permission for surgery on
> his animal?
If the cat is roaming free intact... What ID? I didn't see any ID. As
far as I'm concerned, if some asshole is directly responsible for the death
of dozens of unwanted litters, sorry, that person forfeits their right and
should be fined or better yet, jailed.
Phil P.
> On Mon, 31 Jan 2005 01:11:58 GMT, BarB wrote:
>
> > On Sun, 30 Jan 2005 22:43:08 GMT, "Margaret S." <em...@withheld.com>
> > wrote:
> /snip/
>
> Re rudeness, you must have a good killfile, if you've missed all the rude
> posts here. I don't usually killfile.
The rudeness ain't nothing compared to your utter stupidity.
>
>
> > My question to you is have you had a vasectomy done on a cat? If so,
> > what did it cost?
>
>
> I haven't shopped for it lately. My impression is that it might be a bit
> more expensive as it is more difficult,
That sure sounds like a "no" to me. So you don't really practice what
you're preaching, eh, Maggie?
Phil P.
> On Sun, 30 Jan 2005 16:05:12 -0600, Karen Chuplis wrote:
> /snip/
>
> > > OMG! What VET in their right mind would do this??
> >
> > That's what I wondered too.
>
>
> That's the bottom line, isn't it?
>
> I've lived in several parts of the US and dealt with quite a few vets, and
> none of them had any problem with "remove the uterus but leave the
ovaries."
> One advised that as being safer than tubal ligation.
...but not as BENEFICIAL TO THE CAT and the feline population in general as
ovariohysterectomy.
You do know what amputation without medical benefit is, don't you? MAYHEM.
And what surgical and anesthetic risks are without medical benefit? UTTER
STUPIDITY,
Phil P.
I want my
> errors where I can correct them, instead of preserved forever at GG.
A little too late to worry about that....
Phil P.
> On Sun, 30 Jan 2005 21:40:35 GMT, Mary wrote:
> /snip/
>
> > they must suffer heats
> > and painful intercourse.
>
>
> From what I've read and seen, the idea that cats need pain to induce
> ovulation seems a convenient urban legend. People who say that, never seem
> to cite any actual studies to support it.
I see. So you think the queen's yowl is one of orgasmic delight? ...and she
attacks the tom after out of gratitude?
Try this on... or should I say in?
http://www.maxshouse.com/Illustrations/Phallus_of_tom_cat%20.jpg
http://www.maxshouse.com/Illustrations/phallus_of_tom_cu_barbs.jpg
You're a little kinky, aren't you? You like a little S&M, do you?
Phil P.
> If he is simply castrated, then that neighborhood female may have to
wander
> farther to find a mate,
Queens *always* roam when there's only one tom in the colony or area!
Queens deliberately *entice* toms to fight over her as a means of assuring
the strongest kittens possible.
Your knowledge of cats is truly amazing! LOL!
Phil P.
> and one tom can be enough for a female cat,
From where do you conjure up these ridiculous notions?
From Roger Tabor - a leading feline biologist:
"A recent (study) by Eugenia Natoli and Emanuele De Vito on the groups of
feral cats living among ruins in the center of Rome has cast light on the
secret sex life of the cat by following the queens that came in heat. During
the course of a queen's estrus, she would be courted by 8 to 20 males, and
although at any particular mating session there would be as many as 15 males
around her, 5 was most common. Most females copulated with more than one
male during their estrus period, some with up to 7 males.
An important feature of cat mating that emerged from this study is that
significantly there were 2.5 times more mounts taking place without
intromission than those with full mating. The average was 29 without
intromission and 11 with intromission for a queen in 24 hours. For the
average queen, that amounts to 39 sexual acts in 24 hours, or 1 every 38
minutes. Small wonder that the ancient Egyptians made the cat the female
goddess of fertility."
You might have a tad more credibility if you had at least a *little"
knowledge of the species you're babbling about.
You can probably baffle the average cat owner with your nonsensical
bullshit. But there are quite a few people in this group who actually work
with cats - for years. I can't speak for others, but to me you sound like
an idiot. In fact I think you're a *danger* to cats as a species.
Phil P.
"Karen Chuplis" <kchu...@alltel.net> wrote in message
news:BE22A40F.5C711%kchu...@alltel.net...
> in article 364q43F...@individual.net, KellyH at
> Ke...@farringtonsNOSPAM.net wrote on 1/30/05 1:15 PM:
>
> > If a vasectomied tom still has all the intact behaviors, why do it? I
don't
> > get it.
>
> I swear this one is a real looney.
I think she cleaned too many litterboxes with straight bleach in a small
room.
Phil P.
"BarB" <pat...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:7evqv0hta226t32ek...@news.west.earthlink.net...
> On Sun, 30 Jan 2005 17:18:39 -0500, "KellyH"
> <Ke...@farringtonsNOSPAM.net> wrote:
>
>
> >Just about every unspayed female we get at the shelter over the age of
two
> >is skinny and unhealthy. All of their resources get put into going into
> >heat and pumping out kittens. Poor things barely have anything left for
> >themselves. As soon as they are spayed, there is such a dramatic change.
> >They put on weight, and honestly, seem relieved.
> >
> >Unneutered, mature males stink, to be frank, and do not play well with
> >others. It takes at least a few weeks until we can even let them out
with
> >other cats. Sometimes they come in with nasty wounds from fighting and
are
> >at great risk for FIV. When we're running a FIV/FeLV test on a beat-up
tom,
> >it's time to pray that thing isn't positive.
>
> That's my shelter experience as well. The only time a vasectomy seems
> logical is when you are working with a feral colony. The dominant
> male can take the females you can't catch out of heat.
That's the reasoning that sold me on the idea years ago. ...and it would
work *if* the queen mated with only one tom, but she doesn't... unless he's
the only tom in town.
Phil
Margaret S.
> "BarB" <pat...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> news:7evqv0hta226t32ek...@news.west.earthlink.net...
/snip/
> > The only time a vasectomy seems
> > logical is when you are working with a feral colony.
> > The dominant
> > male can take the females you can't catch out of heat.
>
>
> That's the reasoning that sold me on the idea years ago. ...and it would
work *if* the queen mated with only one tom, but she doesn't...
Someone up the thread (perhaps Barb?) said that she thought the dominant
male in her feral colony was fathering all the kittens. Do you think she was
wrong?
> unless he's the only tom in town.
>
> Phil
Or the only one in the neighborhood the few days she wants to mate. There
are some situations like this, in less crowded areas.
I suppose I should add a Question on ferals at my site.
Margaret S.
--
http://www.sangerfan.com Alternatives to Spaying / Neutering
and Flame War Zone
Mary
"Phil P." <ph...@maxshouse.com> wrote
> You might have a tad more credibility if you had at least a *little"
> knowledge of the species you're babbling about.
>
> You can probably baffle the average cat owner with your nonsensical
> bullshit.
Nah. I'm the average cat owner, and I could smell her a mile away.
>But there are quite a few people in this group who actually work
> with cats - for years. I can't speak for others, but to me you sound like
> an idiot. In fact I think you're a *danger* to cats as a species.
>
She is. And obsessed with the sexual behavior of cats, too.
Margaret S.
/snip/
> Message-ID: <Pqadndyeg_9...@giganews.com>
> What if some of them are wearing ID, and the owner does not give
permission for surgery on his animal?
>
> If the cat is roaming free intact... What ID? I didn't see any ID. As
> far as I'm concerned, if some asshole is directly responsible for the
> death of dozens of unwanted litters, sorry, that person forfeits their
> right and should be fined or better yet, jailed.
What if the animal is microchipped? Does your vet remove that too?
I suppose he would check for 'neuticles' before subjecting the animal to
anesthesia?
Margaret S.
/snip/
> http://www.maxshouse.com/Illustrations/Phallus_of_tom_cat%20.jpg
>
>
> http://www.maxshouse.com/Illustrations/phallus_of_tom_cu_barbs.jpg
Good photography. What is your source for those photos?
Were they published in connection with an actual study of mating behavior,
or did they just come from a dissecting lab?
Margaret S.
> "Margaret S." <em...@withheld.com> wrote in message
> news:1v4qfnsw9kzeg.1...@40tude.net...
>
> > If he is simply castrated, then that neighborhood female may have to
wander farther to find a mate,
>
> Queens *always* roam when there's only one tom in the colony or area!
>
> Queens deliberately *entice* toms to fight over her as a means of assuring
> the strongest kittens possible.
Apparently we are looking at animals in quite different environments. You
cited a study of cats "in the center of Rome", and your own feral colony is
in NY, also presumably urban.
The queens I've known well (after "remove the uterus but leave the
ovaries"), in less crowded environments, often completed their mating period
in a couple of days with only the resident tom visible, and no sound of
tomcat fights. Very peaceful actually.
The queen and tom would seek privacy for a few minutes at a time, then be
visible again.
I've put more on this at my site, under the heading "Miscellaneous questions
and possible urban legends."
Margaret S.
/snip/
> And obsessed with the sexual behavior of cats, too.
Phil, since you came in late, maybe for the record I should mention that I'm
not the one who keeps bringing up gory alleged details of cats' x-rated
behavior.:) (I just reply when someone else brings up such details and needs
correcting.)
At my site you can see the small proportion of wordage I give to such
details, vs the large proportion to issues of population control, lifestyle,
etc.
I promote litter control. Different owners will accept different
alternatives. The more alternatives known, the more litter control will be
done.
Mary
> On Tue, 1 Feb 2005 06:56:43 -0500, Phil P. wrote:
>
> > "Margaret S." <em...@withheld.com> wrote in message
> > news:1v4qfnsw9kzeg.1...@40tude.net...
> >
> > > If he is simply castrated, then that neighborhood female may have to
> wander farther to find a mate,
> >
> > Queens *always* roam when there's only one tom in the colony or area!
> >
> > Queens deliberately *entice* toms to fight over her as a means of
assuring
> > the strongest kittens possible.
>
>
> Apparently we are looking at animals in quite different environments. You
> cited a study of cats "in the center of Rome", and your own feral colony
is
> in NY, also presumably urban.
>
> The queens I've known well (after "remove the uterus but leave the
> ovaries"), in less crowded environments, often completed their mating
period
> in a couple of days with only the resident tom visible, and no sound of
> tomcat fights. Very peaceful actually.
>
> The queen and tom would seek privacy for a few minutes at a time, then be
> visible again.
>
>
Ahahaha!! They probably retire to a little table where he has
arranged some wine and flowers. Idiot.
Margaret S.
/snip/
> 100 female + 100 males = 100 litters. Are you with me so far?
>
> 100 females + 50 males = 100 litters. Gee, how about that!
>
>
> I'll make this very easy for you to understand.
>
> 100 females + 1 male = 100 litters.
And one very tired and happy male. :) That's what I've been telling people
for a long time. Castrating males does not prevent litters. It's a waste of
money that could go to sterilizing females instead.
Many people seem to have the impression that by not sterilizing their male
they are somehow contributing to overpopulation; they think he getting
neighborhood females pregnant who would not otherwise get pregnant. For
those people, as an aside, I occasionally mention vasectomy of their male.
This has at least got some chance, in some neighborhoods, of preventing an
occasional litter -- which castraton of males does not, according to your
math above. :)
Mary
> On Tue, 01 Feb 2005 18:13:55 GMT, Mary wrote:
> /snip/
>
> > And obsessed with the sexual behavior of cats, too.
>
> Phil, since you came in late, maybe for the record I should mention that
I'm
> not the one who keeps bringing up gory alleged details of cats' x-rated
> behavior.:) (I just reply when someone else brings up such details and
needs
> correcting.)
Meaning that you claim that intercourse is not painful to female cats.
>
> At my site you can see the small proportion of wordage I give to such
> details, vs the large proportion to issues of population control,
lifestyle,
> etc.
>
> I promote litter control. Different owners will accept different
> alternatives. The more alternatives known, the more litter control will be
> done.
>
>
Why is it that you are the only person we have every encountered
here who is opposed to spaying and neutering?
Margaret S.
> "Margaret S." <em...@withheld.com> wrote in message
> news:1h58n4trrka1t$.jic460n3d41f.dlg@40tude.net...
/snip/
> > At my site you can see the small proportion of wordage I give to such
> > details, vs the large proportion to issues of population control,
> > lifestyle, etc.
> >
> > I promote litter control. Different owners will accept differen
alternatives. The more alternatives known, the more litter control will be
done.
> >
> >
> Why is it that you are the only person we have every encountered
> here who is opposed to spaying and neutering?
I'm opposed to litters, not to s/n.
In many cases s/n is the best choice. However some people will not ever
accept desexing and will go on producing litters till someone tells them
about the non-desexing alternatives.
Posts often show up here by newbies who say they don't want to spay and who
ask about alternatives. Some of them may be convinced by the "Only One True
Way" chorus -- but others, particularly lurkers or those looking through the
archives, will drop the group and decide "If spaying is the only way to stop
litters, then I'll just go on having litters." Or they will postpone their
decision, producing more litters in the meantime.
As to people continuing to post here who are not happy with s/n,
sterilization is a complicated subject. I'm trying not to post any more
complicated stuff here, to be snipped out of context and misconstrued. After
that happened in a previous thread here, I took the trouble to post
alternative information on my own website instead.
On other forums both sides are discussed civilly, and there is plenty of
doubt about s/n. I'll post some leads to those on my site too, rather than
give a quick link from here for flamers who would try to disrupt those
forums.
KellyH
> And one very tired and happy male. :) That's what I've been telling
> people
> for a long time. Castrating males does not prevent litters. It's a waste
> of
> money that could go to sterilizing females instead.
>
> Many people seem to have the impression that by not sterilizing their male
> they are somehow contributing to overpopulation; they think he getting
> neighborhood females pregnant who would not otherwise get pregnant. For
> those people, as an aside, I occasionally mention vasectomy of their male.
> This has at least got some chance, in some neighborhoods, of preventing an
> occasional litter -- which castraton of males does not, according to your
> math above. :)
>
Why not reccommend that they neuter their male and keep him inside, so he's
not getting into fights and spraying neighbors' yards? Even if this cat is
not responsible for fathering all the litters, why not take him out of the
cycle by neutering him?
KellyH
> Posts often show up here by newbies who say they don't want to spay and
> who
> ask about alternatives. Some of them may be convinced by the "Only One
> True
> Way" chorus -- but others, particularly lurkers or those looking through
> the
> archives, will drop the group and decide "If spaying is the only way to
> stop
> litters, then I'll just go on having litters." Or they will postpone their
> decision, producing more litters in the meantime.
>
I have NEVER met anyone who is out and out opposed to spaying. The people I
encounter through the shelter have not had it done for financial reasons. I
have met men, and only men, who do not want to get their cat neutered. This
is the only time I would say *maybe* to a vasectomy, if they will not neuter
at all. However, in most cases all they need is education. Many do not
know the risks, specifically FIV, to an unneutered tom. A vasectomied tom
is still at risk for this, that is one of my main objections.
Again, most people just need education about spay/neuter and access to a
low-cost way of having it done.
Mary
"Margaret S." <em...@withheld.com> wrote
> > >
> > Why is it that you are the only person we have every encountered
> > here who is opposed to spaying and neutering?
>
>
> I'm opposed to litters, not to s/n.
>
> In many cases s/n is the best choice.
NO. In ALL cases it is the best choice.
However some people will not ever
> accept desexing and will go on producing litters till someone tells them
> about the non-desexing alternatives.
You keep saying this but YOU are the only person I have ever
heard bring this asinine issue up/
>
> Posts often show up here by newbies who say they don't want to spay and
who
> ask about alternatives.
Really? I have never seen this. Please produce these posts.
Some of them may be convinced by the "Only One True
> Way" chorus -- but others, particularly lurkers or those looking through
the
> archives, will drop the group and decide "If spaying is the only way to
stop
> litters, then I'll just go on having litters." Or they will postpone their
> decision, producing more litters in the meantime.
Only in your MIND Margaret. Or only in you. Where are you getting
this stuff?
Margaret S.
> "Margaret S." <em...@withheld.com> wrote in message
> news:1pi3mq4ytp31h$.1gd4kdgglu77t.dlg@40tude.net...
/snip/
> > Some of them may be convinced by the "Only One
> > True
> > Way" chorus -- but others, particularly lurkers or those looking through
> > the
> > archives, will drop the group and decide "If spaying is the only way to
> > stop
> > litters, then I'll just go on having litters." Or they will postpone
their
> > decision, producing more litters in the meantime.
> >
>
> I have NEVER met anyone who is out and out opposed to spaying. The people
I encounter through the shelter have not had it done for financial reasons.
Yes, sometimes it's an excuse used by those who don't want to pay for it,
and they will accept a free or discounted s/n.
The people I've known who are sincerely opposed to s/n, don't discuss it
with shelter people. Some of them, will, however, do a non-desexing surgery
to their females if informed that such exists.
/snip/
> Many do not
> know the risks, specifically FIV, to an unneutered tom. A vasectomied tom
> is still at risk for this, that is one of my main objections.
I don't know of anything suggesting a vasectomied cat would be less at risk
for FIV. Well, unless he becomes popular as a neighborhood 'teaser tom',
which might mean spending more hours in safer places. :)
I'll add more about FIV and FeLV at my site when I can. Currently I have
some info under "Miscellaneous questions and possible urban legends".
The actual extent of the risk for any particular cat in a particular home
and neighborhood, is a matter for discussion between the owner and his local
vet. Knowing that a non-desexing alternative exists -- will at least get the
owner in to talk to the vet about sterilization. (And being told about
non-desexing alternatives by a shelter worker, would help the shelter
worker's credibility with people who dismiss shelter workers as prissy and
prudish. :)
KellyH
> The actual extent of the risk for any particular cat in a particular home
> and neighborhood, is a matter for discussion between the owner and his
> local
> vet. Knowing that a non-desexing alternative exists -- will at least get
> the
> owner in to talk to the vet about sterilization. (And being told about
> non-desexing alternatives by a shelter worker, would help the shelter
> worker's credibility with people who dismiss shelter workers as prissy and
> prudish. :)
No, our reputation is that we are crazy cat ladies in orange stretch pants
with 100 cats in our houses. Get it right.
Everyone that we've ever helped s/n their cats is grateful for the help.
> I don't know of anything suggesting a vasectomied cat would be less at
> risk
> for FIV. Well, unless he becomes popular as a neighborhood 'teaser tom',
> which might mean spending more hours in safer places. :)
Again, what is the point of the vasectomy? You have stated that a
vasectomied tom is still going to roam, spray, fight, etc? You can't keep
him in the house. This is why I say neuter the cat and keep him inside,
dammit.
>
> I'll add more about FIV and FeLV at my site when I can. Currently I have
> some info under "Miscellaneous questions and possible urban legends".
FIV and FeLV are much more serious than miscllaneous and urban legends. And
I don't care to go to your site. I need to keep my stress level down.
Luvskats00
>"...your missing the most important and >ultimately determining factor against
>these surgeries. Can you guess what >that is? I don't think you have a
>clue.NONE of these surgeries BENEFIT >THE CAT."
What veterinary school did you graduate from and where did you get your
license? An investigation on the school and the locale's licensing procedures
need an invesstigation. I've been informed by scores of veterinarians and
veterinary schools in the USA that spaying prevents ovarian cancer and
neutering prevents testicular cancer. The birth control issue regarding the
birth of kittens in an impossiby overly-abundant population is also a strongly
significant reason to have the procedure done on the cat.
KellyH
news:20050201170056...@mb-m28.aol.com...
> What veterinary school did you graduate from and where did you get your
> license? An investigation on the school and the locale's licensing
> procedures
> need an invesstigation. I've been informed by scores of veterinarians and
> veterinary schools in the USA that spaying prevents ovarian cancer and
> neutering prevents testicular cancer. The birth control issue regarding
> the
> birth of kittens in an impossiby overly-abundant population is also a
> strongly
> significant reason to have the procedure done on the cat.
Are you responding to Phil?? Do you honestly think that Phil is against
spay/neuter? Would you please read all of a post before going off
half-cocked?
This quote -
>>"...your missing the most important and >ultimately determining factor
>>against
>>these surgeries. Can you guess what >that is? I don't think you have a
>>clue.NONE of these surgeries BENEFIT >THE CAT."
>
was in regards to vasectomies and "remove the uterus but keep the ovaries"
surgeries for females.
BTW - I asked our vet about that surgery, and she was like "WTF? Why on
earth would anyone do that?" She also said the cat would still be at risk
for breast cancer and it would be inhumane to have her keep going into heat.
Mary
Heh. This is beginning to look like a situation comedy. Go back and
READ THE THREAD, dumbass.