Moving beyond the "indicator, split shot and nymphs" syndrome.
Bill Kiene
There is a time when you need to think about moving on. When you are always
catching more fish than anyone else on the stream with your "indicator,
split shot nymphs system" you might think about trying some real fly
fishing?
If I wanted to cast a bunch of "junk" all day, I would have stayed with
spin fishing.
This situation is not being helped by some (I said some, not all) of the fly
fishing guide who has a home, wife and kids because they are scared to death
to fish any other way for fear of not catching enough fish to get a good
tip, referral or a return customer? ( not all guides fall into this
category, but if you do, sorry.)
I had this syndrome about 20 years ago when I was fishing with a pack of
"nymphomaniacs" that proclaimed anyone that wasted their time dry fly
fishing was an idiot. See there, I was not always perfect. At one time we
would not even carry any dry flies with us. We were really "bad". Nothing is
new.
Many new people are really impressed by these guys that "indictor nymph" for
everything, even steelhead. I mean "all the time, for everything".
Wonderful.
I think indicator nymphing, like trolling in a float tube, is a good way to
transition from spin fishing to fly fishing, but there is a time to give up
the training wheels.
I guess some anglers have to catch lots of fish every time they go out or
they are not happy. These anglers will never be true fly fisherman because
they only know one thing, indictor nymphing.
I feel kind of bad about dropping this on everyone but am tired of the
confusion this causes with the new fly anglers. When they see one of these
"short time wonders" they think that the "super nympher" is at the top of
the sport, when actually they have not even really entered it yet.
PS: This should be good. All I am trying to say is "you don't have to
"indicator-nymph" all the time."
--
Bill Kiene
Kiene's Fly Shop
Sacramento, CA
www.kiene.com
Hans Bock
INDEED :
I think most exciting way to catch a fish is at the dry fly ( when sight
fishing : even BETTER -> New Zealand for example or the cruising cutthroats
at slough creek).
What about salmon and steelhead on the dry.... one will never forget the
boils under the fly !
BUT :
what, when the water is deep and there is no surface activity at all, no
insects coming out ?
Would you REALLY like to keep dry fly fishing without a chance, just to be
"pure" ??
Or would you use nymphing techniques and actually catch fish ....???
I agree, that the other way round is less fun :
when one can catch the fish on the dry, why nymph ?
Maybe we should start a discussion wether the amount of fish being caught in
a day is important.....
Somebody at Roff sometimes ends with the words : "Who needs fish". Their's a
lot of truth in it, I think.
If one has enjoyed the nature and the peaceful atmosphere in the outdoors
( specially, when one lives
in,over-crowded, Holland ) one can still have a nice day.
Hans
(sorry for the bad English)
Dave LaCourse
>There is a time when you need to think about moving on. When you are always
>catching more fish than anyone else on the stream with your "indicator,
>split shot nymphs system" you might think about trying some real fly
>fishing?
Harrrumph! Real fly fishing? This is a troll, right Bill? I'm a good nympher
and yes, I do catch many fish, but I also fish dries, streamers, and wets.
Furthermore, I believe that most (all?) nymph fishermen also go to the dry when
they see rising fish -- I know I do. So, if only dry fly fishing is "real
fishing", how do you feel about streamer fishermen? Are they too casting a
bunch of "junk"? And, how about the wet fly, which is becoming a lost art
among many fly fishermen? I have learned to nymph from some very good nymphers
on Maine waters. They fish nymphs most of the time because the "hatch" is
always on. But they also fish dries. And wets. And streamers.
>
>If I wanted to cast a bunch of "junk" all day, I would have stayed with
>spin fishing.
>
>This situation is not being helped by some (I said some, not all) of the fly
>fishing guide who has a home, wife and kids because they are scared to death
>to fish any other way for fear of not catching enough fish to get a good
>tip, referral or a return customer? ( not all guides fall into this
>category, but if you do, sorry.)
Probably true. Guides are there for one reason - to put their sports onto
fish. Every guide I have ever used went to the nymph first, but when fish were
seen rising, we would fish dries. With the exception of Ontario guides while
salmon/steelhead fishing with Peter Charles, all of my guides have been Orvis
approved. On a recent trip to the Bighorn, I told my guide one morning that I
wanted to fish only dries. He found rising fish.
>I had this syndrome about 20 years ago when I was fishing with a pack of
>"nymphomaniacs" that proclaimed anyone that wasted their time dry fly
>fishing was an idiot. See there, I was not always perfect. At one time we
>would not even carry any dry flies with us. We were really "bad". Nothing is
>new.
I do not know a nympher that does not fish dries. I am sure they exist, but I
believe they are few and far between.
>
>Many new people are really impressed by these guys that "indictor nymph" for
>everything, even steelhead. I mean "all the time, for everything".
>Wonderful.
The "new people" are impressed with whatever you use to catch fish.
>
>I think indicator nymphing, like trolling in a float tube, is a good way to
>transition from spin fishing to fly fishing, but there is a time to give up
>the training wheels.
ROTFL: Is that you, George?
>
>I guess some anglers have to catch lots of fish every time they go out or
>they are not happy. These anglers will never be true fly fisherman because
>they only know one thing, indictor nymphing.
Perhaps such an angler exists, but I have never seen one.
>
>I feel kind of bad about dropping this on everyone but am tired of the
>confusion this causes with the new fly anglers. When they see one of these
>"short time wonders" they think that the "super nympher" is at the top of
>the sport, when actually they have not even really entered it yet.
Never met one of these "short time wonders"
>
>PS: This should be good. All I am trying to say is "you don't have to
>"indicator-nymph" all the time."
And few do. Nice troll, Bill. d;o)
Dave
Ken Fortenberry
> ... but there is a time to give up
> the training wheels.
>
> PS: This should be good. All I am trying to say is "you don't have to
> "indicator-nymph" all the time."
Well said, Bill. I've long thought that serial nymphers were just fly
fishermen who've yet to develop the skills, patience and zen to be
really good dry fly fishermen.
--
Ken Fortenberry
Dave LaCourse
>I've long thought that serial nymphers were just fly
>fishermen who've yet to develop the skills, patience and zen to be
>really good dry fly fishermen.
>
>--
Bullshit! You're starting to sound like Gehrke.
Dave
jeffc
"Ken Fortenberry" <kenfortenberry@*remove*ameritech.net> wrote in message
news:DWj7b.293$ev2.2...@newssrv26.news.prodigy.com...
Dry fly fishing is easy - it only happens in 2 dimensions. Nymphing is more
difficult since it happens in 3. And by the way, why do people always imply
that indicators need to be used with nymphs? Indicators indicate the drift
as much as the take, and besides, good nymph fishermen know there's a time
and place for indicators, and a time and place to fish without them.
Wayne P
would'nt bad mouth bait fisherman. I talk to them when I find them, I ask
them how the fishing is etc.
Being a new fly fisherman, I of course nymph with and indicator. I have to
disagree with your opinion. Nymphing has it's place in the sport. Take
Saturday for example. I was on the White and Norfork Rivers in Arkansas. I
started the day nymphing and caught a lot of fish, including the larget
Rainbow I have caught to date. I had a blast on the Norfork. I moved over to
the White in the afternoon and nymphed a little more. Noticing some fishing
working near the surface I switched to a soft hackle wet fly. I then caught
several fish in it. A little while later, I noticed a Caddis hatch. So then
I took off the flourocarbin tippet, switched to mono, tied on a #20 Elk Hair
Caddis dry fly and fished out the rest of the afternoon with that and caught
more fish.
So in one day, on 2 rivers, I nymphed, used wet flys, then used dry flys and
had a wonderful time doing all three!
So in my fly fishing arsenal, I will keep all 3 strategies available for
use. I honestly cant tell which was the highlight of the day. My largest
trout ever on a nymph or the drf fly action in the afternoon. They were both
fun!
I respect your desire to not nymph and more power to you, but I think to
each their own and let's have fun!
wayne
"Bill Kiene" <bki...@pacbell.net> wrote in message
news:4sd7b.610$Ks5...@newssvr25.news.prodigy.com...
pittendrigh
>
> There is a time when you need to think about moving on. When you are always
> catching more fish than anyone else on the stream with your "indicator,
> split shot nymphs system" you might think about trying some real fly
> fishing?
>
> If I wanted to cast a bunch of "junk" all day, I would have stayed with
> spin fishing.
>
Hey Bill:
You make is sound like bobber fishing is an all or nothing enterprise.
But it ain't so. If there's dry fly fishing to be had (blue winged
olives, pmd's, tricos, grasshoppers, stoneflies) that's what I like to
do best.
But good dry fly fishing is the exception rather
than the rule. So if they aren't hitting dryflies, I usually give
a hopper-dropper-with-a-beadhead rig a try.
If that doesn't work, I dredge the bottom with a
streamer-trailing-a-nymph
combo.
The variety is the fun part. Too much dry fly fishing is like trying
to survive on a diet of chocolate cake and coffee. At some point
you need some meat potatoes and veggies.
Ken Fortenberry
>
> Dry fly fishing is easy - ...
There's an adage among concert musicians that goes;
Young, inexperienced musicians don't want to play Mozart because
it's too easy and older, experienced musicians don't want to play
Mozart because it's so difficult.
--
Ken Fortenberry
Wayne Harrison
"Dave LaCourse" <dav...@aol.comPirate> wrote in message
news:20030909084932...@mb-m20.aol.com...
> Ken Fortenberry writes:
>
> >I've long thought that serial nymphers were just fly
> >fishermen who've yet to develop the skills, patience and zen to be
> >really good dry fly fishermen.
> >
> >--
>
> Bullshit! You're starting to sound like Gehrke.
>
>
> Dave
oh, my god! is it possible that forty is being ...possessed???!!!
yfitons
wayno (he's baaaaaaackkk...)
Joshua Rosenblatt
wrote:
>Hi U All
<one's man's opinion snipped>
Well said Bill. Bravo Bravo!
But I'd take you one step further. Anyone, repeat ANYONE, who fishes
a graphite rod is a punk. Don't get me started on those who use a
leader that isn't hand tied and specifically geared to turn over a
Size 12 Royal Coachman on 5x tippet. There is only one fly worthy of
fooling a trout, and that is the one. Anyone who uses any other fly,
especially those ridiculous imitator flies (talk about cheating) is a
fraud, a weak fisherman and an overall bad dude. Cripples? Emergers?
Transitional Duns!!!! Abominations, if you can't catch that fish on a
Royal Coachman you shouldn't be on the stream! And the recent trend
of fishing terrestrials? Hell son, just use bait already. No self
respecting fisherman should have em in their fly box. Hell, no
*real* fisherman would have a fly box unless, of course, it's a
Wheatley filled with Royal Coachmans.... and authentic fisherman have
those cool hats with the fly patches on the side, just like Brad Pitt
in A River Runs Through It.
I know some may take issue with these things but they are wrong and
should be shot or (at least) ridiculed streamside.
Sounds almost as silly, no?
Joshua
who prefers Dries- but ain't gonna apologize for going subsurface when
conditions warrant or (more importantly) when I WANT to.
Ken Fortenberry
> Ken Fortenberry writes:
>
>>I've long thought that serial nymphers were just fly
>>fishermen who've yet to develop the skills, patience and zen to be
>>really good dry fly fishermen.
>
> Bullshit! You're starting to sound like Gehrke.
Ouch. ;-)
But really, if every time the dry fly action slows down you put on
a nymph, you'll never develop as a really good dry fly fisherman.
The nymph is just a crutch, an easier way to continue to catch fish.
There's nothing wrong with that, of course, I mean folks should
fish however the hell they want to fish within the law, but it's
still true that the way to become a really good dry dly fisherman
is to fish dry flies. You might be surprised what a really good dry
fly fisherman can do after the serial nymphers have all given up and
gone to bottom dredging.
--
Ken Fortenberry
Tim J.
"Ken Fortenberry" wrote...
> Bill Kiene wrote:
>
> > ... but there is a time to give up
> > the training wheels.
> >
> > PS: This should be good. All I am trying to say is "you don't have to
> > "indicator-nymph" all the time."
>
Whoever is the keeper of the official roff calendar, please circle this day in
red. All is right and well in the neighborhood.
--
TL,
Tim
(to think, some people don't believe in miracles)
------------------------
http://css.sbcma.com/timj
Warren
> There's an adage among concert musicians that goes;
> Young, inexperienced musicians don't want to play Mozart because
> it's too easy and older, experienced musicians don't want to play
> Mozart because it's so difficult.
So what you are saying is that nymph fishing is too
difficult for you? ;-)
--
Warren
(use troutbum_mt (at) yahoo to reply via email)
Dave LaCourse
>Dry fly fishing is easy - it only happens in 2 dimensions. Nymphing is more
>difficult since it happens in 3. And by the way, why do people always imply
>that indicators need to be used with nymphs? Indicators indicate the drift
>as much as the take, and besides, good nymph fishermen know there's a time
>and place for indicators, and a time and place to fish without them.
Exactly!
slenon
entire water column in a manner designed to cause me to improve my skills at
what fishing is all about, telling lies to fish instead of lies about fish.
I prefer the single fly or streamer with no dropper and no indicator. So
that's what I fish. Not because I'm too pure to fish anyother way, but
because I find it most rewarding. I can and have fished with indicators,
shot, pure dry, pure nymph, and even pure streamer. But I believe in a well
equipped arsenal. Just as most of us have more than one rod and reel,
there's benefit to fishing the gamut of flies.
That said, since my dwelling and finances confine my current fishing trips
to the local flats, I'm tossing all manner of subsurface lies to the local
creatures, all of whom have teeth. Because throwing these big hairy flies
that double as anchors is appropriate to the water, I'm catching fish and
having a great day each time out. And I am still allowed to feel that
snobbish disdain for the guys throwing whatever hardware and protein they
can manage to hurl with spinning gear.
--
----
Stev Lenon 91B20 '68-'69
Drowning flies to Darkstar
Save a cow, eat a PETA member
sle...@tampabay.rr.com
http://web.tampabay.rr.com/stevglo/index.html/slhomepage92kword.htm
Larry Linthicum
"Bill Kiene" <bki...@pacbell.net> wrote
>> they think that the "super nympher" is at the top of
> the sport, when actually they have not even really entered it yet.
>
> PS: This should be good. All I am trying to say is "you don't have to
> "indicator-nymph" all the time."
>
I think of "the top of the sport" of fly fishing as consistently fooling
fish with as
much art and grace as possible.
You can't meet that definition if you fail to consistently catch fish, or,
if you fail to do so with as much grace as current conditions allow.
Sometimes, often most hours of the day, indicator nymphing can be the most
artful and graceful way to consistently fool trout.
But, fish rising to hatches, offer a rare chance to fish in a manner more
graceful. As do fish that can be coaxed into feeding near the surface, on
unweighted flies
I don't care if someone continues to indicator nymph to those
rising fish, it's just their loss. UNLESS, they do so in a manner that puts
those fish down so that others lose a special opportunity.
So, if someone drives 8 hours to Hat creek to stand shoulder to shoulder,
with the like minded, in the Powerhouse Riffle indicator nymphing ...
that's just sad. Although, down stream a few hundred yards there is finer
challenge, more suited to their chosen tools ... they only limit
themselves.
Move them to Fall River and have them floating right through rising fish,
putting them down, while watching their bobbers, and ...that makes me mad,
so mad I see red. Their limitations are being imposed on everyone forced
to be near them.
I took up fly fishing, 35 years ago, because I saw rising trout and wanted
to catch those fish. Needed to catch actually comes closer, it was an
emotional imperative. I fished other ways and caught fish, a full creel was
not the issue.
Free rising fish are very rare, if you don't want to accept the rare
opportunity they represent, please move to water where they don't currently
exist. Often that will be only a short move.
Casting small, unweighted, insect imitations is what a fly rod is designed
to do, it's what the tool can do that others can not. Other uses certainly
qualify as fly fishing, but never are as graceful and in tune with the tool.
I'm trying to improve my ability, as a
nympher, to be able to more often satisfy the "consistently catch" part of
my "top of sport" definition. But, I agree with Bill's implied statement
that "consistently catching" is only part of the definition.
rw
> Hi U All,
>
> There is a time when you need to think about moving on. When you are always
> catching more fish than anyone else on the stream with your "indicator,
> split shot nymphs system" you might think about trying some real fly
> fishing?
I agree entirely. The important thing isn't catching the most fish. It's
catching the most fish in the least amount of time.
:-)
Bill Kiene
I actually just wanted to get this more out in the air a bit.
In Nor Cal we have a bunch of guys that have gotten real good at catching
tons of fish with the indicator/nymph system and think they have reached the
top of the mark. I don't like the new people to see this as the big deal.
I go out with friends on our freestone streams and while they are nymphing,
I try something else because I already know they will be catching fish. I
enjoy the casting, so having all the stuff on the line is no fun after a
while.
I try to time (time of day, time of year) my fishing when the fish will be
more active so we don't have to just deep nymph fish.
Indicator/nymphing is great. Just don't limit yourself to it and you will
have a more interesting fly fishing experience.
--
Bill Kiene
Kiene's Fly Shop
Sacramento, CA
www.kiene.com
"Ken Fortenberry" <kenfortenberry@*remove*ameritech.net> wrote in message
news:DWj7b.293$ev2.2...@newssrv26.news.prodigy.com...
Bill Kiene
Don't get this wrong, I do know some fly fisherman that are extremely
sofisticate nymph fisherman too.
Some just over do it.
--
Bill Kiene
Kiene's Fly Shop
Sacramento, CA
www.kiene.com
"jeffc" <f...@chance.com> wrote in message
news:w4k7b.18484$AU.8...@twister.southeast.rr.com...
Bill Kiene
Ken made my day.
--
Bill Kiene
Kiene's Fly Shop
Sacramento, CA
www.kiene.com
"Tim J." <NOkpos...@comcast.net.invalid> wrote in message
news:qSKdnWNXrsu...@crocker.com...
rw
>
> So, if someone drives 8 hours to Hat creek to stand shoulder to shoulder,
> with the like minded, in the Powerhouse Riffle indicator nymphing ...
> that's just sad.
Been there. I caught the largest fish, by far. It was great!
:-)
P.S. My guide enjoyed it, too. :-)
Scott Seidman
@newssvr29.news.prodigy.com:
> Good coments..........very good.
>
> Don't get this wrong, I do know some fly fisherman that are extremely
> sofisticate nymph fisherman too.
>
> Some just over do it.
>
As long as they are having fun, respecting the fish, and the ecology, who's
to say they're overdoing it.
FWIW, I just love catching more fish than everybody around me during a
riseless Hendrickson hatch. I know I can keep up with most of them with a
dry fly. I happen to consider myself a better dry fly fisherman than a
nympher--but I also enjoy catching fish.
Scott
Bill Kiene
This is the way we fished years ago before indicators existed.
Floating line, hand tied tapered leader and one weighted nymph.
No indicator, no shot, not droppers. We just watched the end of the fly line
and the leader.
Actually, we learned this system from an old local fly fisherman, Neil
Hansen, about 30 years ago.
--
Bill Kiene
Kiene's Fly Shop
Sacramento, CA
www.kiene.com
"slenon" <sle...@tampabay.rr.com> wrote in message
news:lMl7b.13533$y_6.1...@twister.tampabay.rr.com...
riverman
> but it's
> still true that the way to become a really good dry dly fisherman
...is to move to China.
--riverman
George Adams
>Dry fly fishing is easy - it only happens in 2 dimensions. Nymphing is more
>difficult since it happens in 3. And by the way, why do people always imply
>that indicators need to be used with nymphs?
>Indicators indicate the drift
>as much as the take, and besides, good nymph fishermen know there's a time
>and place for indicators, and a time and place to fish without them.
Agree 100% I far prefer dry fly fishing to indicator nymphing, but when all is
said and done, my favorite method is sight fishing with a nymph or wet
fly.....generally much more challenging than fishing the dry.
Of course, there's absolutely nothing wrong with an angler restricting himself
to one method, as long as it's legal, but this is a self imposed limitation
based on that person's preference, and it gets rather tedious when said angler
proclaims that his preferred method is the only true fly fishing.
George Adams
"All good fishermen stay young until they die, for fishing is the only dream of
youth that doth not grow stale with age."
---- J.W Muller
Todd Enders
> .... and authentic fisherman have those cool hats with the fly
> patches on the side, just like Brad Pitt in A River Runs Through
> It.
>
Todd
Larry Linthicum
"rw" <royal...@earthlink.net> wrote
>
> Been there. I caught the largest fish, by far. It was great!
>
A "kid" ( in his 40s now and has 3 of his own ) that used to work for me did
graduate work in fisheries biology at Hat. He SCUBA dived the entire
special regs section and surveyed habitat types and such. According to him,
and at THAT time ( everything seems to be 'a lot of years ago' anymore ) the
biggest fish were not in any of the more popular areas and probably were not
vulnerable to either indicator nymphing or dryish flies .... can anyone say
"streamer"
He now works for Ca F&G and recently told me about a couple new "secret
places" to fish and duck hunt ... I gave him his first fly rod, a gift that
he's returned many times over, with information
rw also said
>
> P.S. My guide enjoyed it, too. :-)
>>
If you paid a guide real American money to take you to Power House Riffle,
you're just the kind of person I'm looking for. Have I got a real estate
deal for you !! Check it out ... http://www.suckerbait.com
<G>
Larry Linthicum
"Larry Linthicum" <larry_l...@hotmail.com> wrote
> deal for you !! Check it out ... http://www.suckerbait.com
>
I had no idea it was a real domain when I typed the above <G>
slenon
>Floating line, hand tied tapered leader and one weighted nymph.
>No indicator, no shot, not droppers. We just watched the end of the fly
line
>and the leader. Actually, we learned this system from an old local fly
fisherman, Neil
>Hansen, about 30 years ago.
Ah! But, the end of the fly line is an indicator, if not a highly visible
bobber type.
Point is, for me at least, that the guys I learned from used all the tools
they had to catch fish. They didn't limit their selves to a single
technique even if it was their favorite technique. They recognized that fly
fishing was already highly selective as to who practiced it as a means to
lie to fish. The guys who taught me saved their venom and their major
insults for non-fly fishers. And at the end of the day, or the end of the
trip, if there was sufficient ridicule left over to spread amongst
ourselves, it was usually passed around based upon who actually landed fish
rather than what flies were being used to not catch fish.
I've no need to specialize myself any further. I lie to fish with flies and
streamer of my own creation. And I enjoy every trip out as much or more
than the guys who over specialize.
rw
> "rw" <royal...@earthlink.net> wrote
>
>>P.S. My guide enjoyed it, too. :-)
>>
>
> If you paid a guide real American money to take you to Power House Riffle,
> you're just the kind of person I'm looking for. Have I got a real estate
> deal for you !!
We fished the Power House Riffle in the evening, after spending the day
on the Fall River.
Dave LaCourse
>No indicator, no shot, not droppers. We just watched the end of the fly line
>and the leader.
>
>Actually, we learned this system from an old local fly fisherman, Neil
>Hansen, about 30 years ago.
>
>--
>Bill Kiene
And I learned it from my mother and father more than 50 years ago. You're
whole premise was to "move on," wasn't it? Well, I have. I catch more and
bigger fish than my mom and dad did "way back when." But, if I'm skunked on an
outing, I don't go to pieces. There are many reasons to fly fish, and catching
fish is only one of them.
I think you will find, Bill, than many (most?) nymphers will use an indicator
or NOT use an indicator depending on the water. An indicator is nothing more
than an additional tool, not unlike floatant, tapered leaders, knot tying
tools. I am sure there are folks out there that think you aren't a true fly
fisherman because you use a floating line. I can remember all the nay sayers
when Cortland came out with their 333 line in the mid 40s.
To me, this is all about nothing. A great troll to help move the blood
corpuscles through my rotting veins. d;o)
Dave
Dave LaCourse
>Of course, there's absolutely nothing wrong with an angler restricting
>himself
>to one method, as long as it's legal, but this is a self imposed limitation
>based on that person's preference, and it gets rather tedious when said
>angler
>proclaims that his preferred method is the only true fly fishing.
>
>
>George Adams
Amen!
Stephen Welsh
$AU.8...@twister.southeast.rr.com:
> oh, my god! is it possible that forty is being ...possessed???!!!
>
*splork*
Steve (Go Ken, towards the light ... the light ... :)
Stephen Welsh
news:20030909132947...@mb-m13.aol.com:
> Agree 100% I far prefer dry fly fishing to indicator nymphing,
> but when all is said and done, my favorite method is sight
> fishing with a nymph or wet fly.....generally much more
> challenging than fishing the dry.
>
Yes!
Steve
Clark Reid
"Bill Kiene" < wrote
> Good coments..........very good.
>
> Don't get this wrong, I do know some fly fisherman that are extremely
> sofisticate nymph fisherman too.
>
> Some just over do it.
>
> --
> Bill Kiene
>
> Kiene's Fly Shop
> Sacramento, CA
> www.kiene.com
I tend to agree, on some level, with just about all of the comments in this
thread...
In New Zealand a book which came out in the 70's called "Trout with nymph"
by Tony Orman revolutionized fishing here to the point that nymph has
dominated our fishing scene ever since and lead to a situation where the
average NZ angler doesn't even know when it is appropriate to use a dry fly,
only if a fish is seen to rise will a dry fly be used in most cases.
Personally I prefer to fish dry 90% of the time and find most of my clients
do too...
Dry fly tends to demand greater accuracy and better drift control in order
to be consistently successful, but then there are times when dry fly fishing
can be incredibly simple and nymphing very technical... it all depends on
circumstance.
Whether nymphing with an unweighted nymph in an emerger situation or
dredging a riffle with a big Stonefly or Onicigaster there is a time and a
place. While it's not all about catching huge numbers of fish, many also
take pride in how well they participate in their sport. Like the golfer who
plays essentially to relax, but is always conscious of trying to improve
their handicap... I think we would think that any golfer who elected to only
play with a putter to prove he was superior was just some kind of elitist
jerk... now if he elected to do that because he enjoyed it and did not care
of others did or not then it would be a non issue.
But again you get both sides of the fence... I get frustrated by many
anglers being introduced to the sport and being taught that nymphing is the
be all and end all of the sport and the dry only works "10% of the time"
(One of the biggest myths perpetrated on fly-fishing)... but at the same
time if an angler makes their choice within the regulations more power to
them, it's an individual choice. Both are effective methods of fly-fishing,
neither denotes any superiority of skill and only indicates, perhaps, what
the angler enjoys or has been shown or has learned at this point.
To adopt a position of being a better angler because of the technique you
chose is kind getting into the ego arena in my opinion...
I have seen many a "dry-fly purist" change after flying 8000 miles,
outlaying a lot of money on a trip and spending an hour working over a
feeding 9lb Brown... To me to persist to try and catch a fish with an
ineffective technique is a hallmark of a non thinking angler who has dumbed
down their fishing to one technique... the versatile angler who enjoys
success has improved their handicap... so long as no one is stressing out
and getting all demented over catching huge numbers of fish... more power to
them however they choose to do it.
This is not to "drum up trade" as I know most here wouldn't hire me anyway,
but if you are interested in this subject check out my website and see what
I have had to say about this on the "guiding" page...it's what I outline to
visitors regarding these techniques...
--
Clark Reid
http://www.dryflynz.com
Umpqua Designer Flytier
Clark Reid
Wayne Harrison
"Dave LaCourse" <dav...@aol.comPirate> wrote
> I think you will find, Bill, than many (most?) nymphers will use an
indicator
> or NOT use an indicator depending on the water. An indicator is nothing
more
> than an additional tool, not unlike floatant, tapered leaders, knot tying
> tools.
you be sayin the *truth*, louie!
yfitons
wayno
George Cleveland
>Hi U All,
>
>There is a time when you need to think about moving on. When you are always
>catching more fish than anyone else on the stream with your "indicator,
>split shot nymphs system" you might think about trying some real fly
>fishing?
>
>--
>Bill Kiene
>
>Kiene's Fly Shop
>Sacramento, CA
>www.kiene.com
>
>
While I usually dislike casting an indicator, split shot and a fly or two, there
are times when it is an enjoyable way to fish. At its best it reminds me of the
Unexcelled, All Time Greatest, Most Satisfying Fishing Experience in the history
of this little bit of eternity i.e.; being 7 years old, sitting by the side of a
lake by yourself (no grownups!), dangling a hook you baited yourself (no
grownups!!) under a red and white bobber and watching it twitch and dance and
then vanish!!! Before you pull in that 5" sunny or skinny perch...before you
bring up your hook, naked as your little brother in the bath tub... before you
pull back so hard but the weeds on the bottom pull back harder...you could be
hooked to anything, anything at all. Sometimes indicator fishing is almost like
that. So I have a soft spot for bobbers. Sometimes you never know.
g.c.
Ken Fortenberry
> While I usually dislike casting an indicator, split shot and a fly or two, there
> are times when it is an enjoyable way to fish. At its best it reminds me of the
> Unexcelled, All Time Greatest, Most Satisfying Fishing Experience in the history
> of this little bit of eternity i.e.; being 7 years old, sitting by the side of a
> lake by yourself (no grownups!), dangling a hook you baited yourself (no
> grownups!!) under a red and white bobber and watching it twitch and dance and
> then vanish!!! Before you pull in that 5" sunny or skinny perch...before you
> bring up your hook, naked as your little brother in the bath tub... before you
> pull back so hard but the weeds on the bottom pull back harder...you could be
> hooked to anything, anything at all. Sometimes indicator fishing is almost like
> that. So I have a soft spot for bobbers. Sometimes you never know.
Post of the month.
Thanks, George.
--
Ken Fortenberry
Wayne P
there
> are times when it is an enjoyable way to fish. At its best it reminds me
of the
> Unexcelled, All Time Greatest, Most Satisfying Fishing Experience in the
history
> of this little bit of eternity i.e.; being 7 years old, sitting by the
side of a
> lake by yourself (no grownups!), dangling a hook you baited yourself (no
> grownups!!) under a red and white bobber and watching it twitch and dance
and
> then vanish!!! Before you pull in that 5" sunny or skinny perch...before
you
> bring up your hook, naked as your little brother in the bath tub... before
you
> pull back so hard but the weeds on the bottom pull back harder...you could
be
> hooked to anything, anything at all. Sometimes indicator fishing is almost
like
> that. So I have a soft spot for bobbers. Sometimes you never know.
Exactly!!! - I used to throw minnows out under large bobbers as a kid. We
used to never know what was there when the bobber disappeared . . was it a
bass? what size? Or could it have been a Northern Pike? There were a few in
the lake we fished in Michigan . . . Sometimes it would be a Pike . . .What
a day it was then!
wayne
Warren
> Whoever is the keeper of the official roff calendar, please circle this day in
> red. All is right and well in the neighborhood.
You misspelled "all is fucked up with the universe."
HTH.
--
Warren
(use troutbum_mt (at) yahoo to reply via email)
jeffc
> jeffc wrote:
> >
> > Dry fly fishing is easy - ...
>
> There's an adage among concert musicians that goes;
> Young, inexperienced musicians don't want to play Mozart because
> it's too easy and older, experienced musicians don't want to play
> Mozart because it's so difficult.
There's a saying among ROFFians that goes; Ken is a putz.
jeffc
"Dave LaCourse" <dav...@aol.comPirate> wrote in message
news:20030909161902...@mb-m03.aol.com...
>
> I think you will find, Bill, than many (most?) nymphers will use an
indicator
> or NOT use an indicator depending on the water.
I don't know if most will, but I think most should. Joe Humphreys is the
most rabid indicator-hater you'll ever find, if you read his books and watch
his videos. But I asked him about it and he said he actually thinks it's
OK - he just tells his students that because he hates them to learn using
them exclusively - getting mesmerized by watching the bouncing ball rather
than learning how to fish well. He thinks it's a tool that has a time and
place.
rw
>
> There's a saying among ROFFians that goes; Ken is a putz.
I'm the putz. Ken is the dipshit.
Bill Kiene
is so good that I will not even try to describe it.
--
Bill Kiene
Kiene's Fly Shop
Sacramento, CA
www.kiene.com
"Wayne P" <w_pa...@yahooNO.SPcomAM> wrote in message
news:vlsu3oi...@corp.supernews.com...
John Lindsey
> While I usually dislike casting an indicator, split shot and a fly or two,
there
> are times when it is an enjoyable way to fish. At its best it reminds me
of the
> Unexcelled, All Time Greatest, Most Satisfying Fishing Experience in the
history
> of this little bit of eternity i.e.; being 7 years old, sitting by the
side of a
> lake by yourself (no grownups!), dangling a hook you baited yourself (no
> grownups!!) under a red and white bobber and watching it twitch and dance
and
> then vanish!!! Before you pull in that 5" sunny or skinny perch...before
you
> bring up your hook, naked as your little brother in the bath tub... before
you
> pull back so hard but the weeds on the bottom pull back harder...you could
be
> hooked to anything, anything at all. Sometimes indicator fishing is almost
like
> that. So I have a soft spot for bobbers. Sometimes you never know.
>
>
> g.c.
George, me lad, you have a great gift with the prose. Pray thee, tell us
more.
Eagerly awaiting.
John
Clark Reid
"jeffc" <
> I don't know if most will, but I think most should. Joe Humphreys is the
> most rabid indicator-hater you'll ever find, if you read his books and
watch
> his videos. But I asked him about it and he said he actually thinks it's
> OK - he just tells his students that because he hates them to learn using
> them exclusively - getting mesmerized by watching the bouncing ball rather
> than learning how to fish well. He thinks it's a tool that has a time and
> place.
>
I guess the type of indicator is important to some. I am not a fan of
polystyrene balls or such, but a bit of yarn in riffle water is certainly a
help.
I recall when nymphing first started to take off in the Taupo lake and river
system for our "steelhead like trout that run the rivers to spawn" <g>... In
those days any type of indicator was legal, nowadays it's yarn only, but
then you could use anything. I used to use the old Cortland adhesive type. I
ran out one day and went into Geoff Sanderson's flyshop. Geoff was a real
character of the river and ran his store there for many years... He invented
the "Red Setter" Streamer, a famous fly in Australasia, and was very well
known. I was a 17 years old kid and asked "got any Indicators Mr.
Sanderson"? His reply stays with me to this day...
"If I did... I'd feed them to you"!!!
:)
Ken Fortenberry
> "Ken Fortenberry" wrote:
>>jeffc wrote:
>>
>>>Dry fly fishing is easy - ...
>>
>>There's an adage among concert musicians that goes;
>>Young, inexperienced musicians don't want to play Mozart because
>>it's too easy and older, experienced musicians don't want to play
>>Mozart because it's so difficult.
>
> There's a saying among ROFFians that goes; Ken is a putz.
Nothing you hate worse than having your "seasoned expert" persona
exposed as a fraud. You have a lot to learn, kiddo, not the least
of which is that Barnard is the putz. I'm the asshole, you smarmy
little twit.
--
Ken Fortenberry
riverman
Hey, don't forget me!! I'm the "shithead redguard anti-capitalist Latvian"!
--riverman
(the shithead redguard anti-capitalist Latvian)
Charlie Choc
wrote:
>--riverman
>(the shithead redguard anti-capitalist Latvian)
>
IIRC, it's SHITHEAD - all caps.
--
Charlie...
Ken Fortenberry
> Hey, don't forget me!! I'm the "shithead redguard anti-capitalist Latvian"!
>
> --riverman
> (the shithead redguard anti-capitalist Latvian)
Sorry Myron, that's not an official roff moniker. The only one who ever
called you that was the fucking creep Hart. But, as an aside, we only
need two more citations by two different roffians to make "fucking creep"
Hart's official roff moniker. ;-)
--
Ken Fortenberry
riverman
"Charlie Choc" <hugh_ja...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:c4kulv8tsd8l6k748...@4ax.com...
And so it was, and I am in awe of your powers of recall.
--riverman
(tSra-cL)
Charlie Choc
wrote:
>And so it was, and I am in awe of your powers of recall.
>
Augmented, occasionally<g>, by Google.
--
Charlie...
riverman
And I am now, 38 seconds later, in even more awe at the speed of your
internet connection!! Don't you have a job or something? :-)
--r,tSra-cL
Charlie Choc
wrote:
> Don't you have a job or something? :-)
>
Nah, I retired the 1st of this year.
--
Charlie...
riverman
Whoa, really?? Wow, so you won the game; you managed to retire at a young
age, while you could still enjoy the better things in life with your own
teeth. I guess it helps to be in a high-paying computer job rather than
cranking away teaching at slave wages in the jungle.... I'm jealous.
Congrats.
--riverman
(40 more years to retirement. Once I get started planning for it....)
Shootr37
flyfishing is in the presentation of the dry fly. I don't know how much that
belief has to do with the fact that 90% of the fish I have landed on a fly rod
have been caught using dry flies and emergers fished in the film, however. I
have never really had success in fishing the nymph, not even as a dropper.
My approach whenever I encounter new water is to fish the faster water with
dries first. I have found that trout are usually pretty willing to give me a
nip or two when I do that, and then if they do not, then I will switch to a
streamer. Only when I have exhausted both of those means will I switch to a
nymph.
There are some who would say that streamer fishing is not truly flyfishing
either, and I would have to agree with them if the criteria upon which they
base their opinion is that I am not truly representing a fly with my tactics.
The problem is that it is so much darn fun! Even when I am not getting alot of
hookups, I just like the constant casting and retreiving. It is proactive in
the extreme, and I like the fact that it allows me to cover so much water so
quickly. The upside of using the streamer alternative is that in certain types
of water it is really the ony way to have a realistic chance of getting a
strike, so in having streamers in my box, I am merely upping my chances. That
is how I look at it, and I feel the same about nymph fishing. In certain
situations, it is just the best tactic to use.
I, like you, believe that one should always try to fish the dries first, but it
is nice to know that I have other tactics available to me when the fish are not
rising, or when the riffle trout are not willing. I do not wnat my fishing
persona to be defined by how many fish I catch - that is not whay I do this -
but I have to admit that getting skunked bothers me, and I am going to try
every approach I can if it will allow me to have a chance to have a close
encounter with the trout I love so much, because, to me, the essence of
flyfishing is in catch and release. The communion I get to experience with a
wild trout as I hold it in my hands and revive it is the thing that fuels my
obsession, not the amount of hookups I get.
Shootr37
nymphomaniacs giving up in disgust when they were unable to get a hookup, even
after they watch me bring many a large trout up to the surface during non hatch
conditions using an e/c caddis or some other sort of emerger. When people get
frustrated with dry flies they need to remember that trout are opportunistic,
and they will (in my opinion) go after whatever is available and will provide
them with the most gain for the least effort. You just have to be willing to
make multiple presentations is all. Many is the time when it tokk me drifts
numbering in the double digits down a particular feeding lane before I got a
strike. You have to be persistent. If you see caddisflies flittering around on
the river, then you need to tie one on and give it multiple tries, especially
if the water is fertile. There is a lot of food floating by for the fish to
choose from, and they might need to see your dry fly several times and reject
it in favor of something closer to their face before they are willing to hit
the thing. It's all about persistence I say again.
But some people are stuck in their ways. I have seen some of the nymphomaniacs
tromping off the river and I have told them "Hey, give this a try. It's
catching fish!" and they will just walk off without even attempting it. I feel
sorry for those guys. They are missing out by being stubborn.
Wayne Harrison
Shootr37 wrote
. I have seen some of the nymphomaniacs
>tromping off the river and I have told them "Hey, give this a try. It's
>catching fish!" and they will just walk off without even attempting it. I
feel
>sorry for those guys. They are missing out by being stubborn.
on the other hand, there is the distinct possibility that they, like
some of us in this forum, listened to you ramble on for an interminable time
regarding issues so mundane as to be nauseating in such a boring fashion as
to be aggravating as hell, and simply decided to escape your presence as
soon as possible.
unfortunately, we don't have that option.
wayno
Joshua Rosenblatt
**DRY FLY PURISTS** giving up in disgust when they were unable to get
a hookup, even after they watch me bring many a large trout **TO
HAND** during non hatch conditions using an **BH HARES EAR** or some
other sort of **NYMPH** . When people get
frustrated with dry flies they need to remember that trout are
opportunistic, and they will (in my opinion) go after whatever is
available and will provide them with the most gain for the least
effort -**YUP, NAMELY NYMPHS ON THE BOTTOM**.. You just have to be
willing tomake multiple presentations is all. Many is the time when it
tokk <SIC> me drifts numbering in the double digits down a particular
feeding lane before I got a strike. You have to be persistent. If you
see caddisflies flittering around on the river, then you need to tie
one on and give it multiple tries, especially if the water is fertile
-**AND IF STILL NO LUCK, TIE ON A LARVA OR PUPA TO DEAD DRIFT OR SWING
- OR HELL, JUST DRAG THAT ELK HAIR CADDIS UNDER**
There is a lot of food **IN THE CURRENT** for the fish to
choose from, **90 %+ OF WHICH IS SUBSURFACE** and they might need to
see your **PATTERN** several times and reject it in favor of
something closer to their face before they are willing to hit
the thing. It's all about persistence I say again **AND ADAPTABILITY**
But some people are stuck in their ways. **YUP** I have seen some of
the **DRY FLY PURISTS** tromping off the river and I have told them
"Hey, give **NYMPHING** a try. It's catching **ALOT OF** fish!" and
they will just walk off without even attempting it. I feel sorry for
those guys. They are missing out by being stubborn. **YUP BUT
WHATEVER FLOATS ONE'S BOAT.**.
Warren
> Nothing you hate worse than having your "seasoned expert" persona
> exposed as a fraud. You have a lot to learn, kiddo, not the least
> of which is that Barnard is the putz. I'm the asshole, you smarmy
> little twit.
When was the last time you fished with Jeff? You might
be surprised to learn that much of what he has read and
learned through books has made him a pretty good
fisherman. You should try it sometime instead of taking
the "I know best" road. Any angler that isn't up for
changing their approach or methods isn't worth a shit.
The mark of a good fisherman is that they will adapt,
progress and learn based upon the knowledge they have
gained from observation, experience and any other means
they have found. A good angler will take all of this
information, apply it and judge for themselves what
works best for them, not merely take your word for it
and then claim to be a master.
I have fished with both of you and you are both good
fishermen. Lately you have come up with this "dry fly
only" load of crap that is just that.....crap! There is
a time and place for dry flies, but it sure the hell
isn't something you can do year around and everyday.
Personally, I let the fish decide what I am going to
use. If a dry won't work, I'll gladly switch over to a
nymph rig and dredge the bottom with the best of them.
I know many people who prefer dries and lean that way,
but they catch far fewer fish and are what I call
"seasonal anglers" since you rarely see them on all but
the perfect days. There is a whole world out there to
explore when dealing with the behavior of fish. You
should try exploring that world again sometime instead
of just sticking to one method and proclaiming it to be
the best.
BTW, RW just got here and wanted me to relay a message:
"Fuck you dipshit!" <g>
Ken Fortenberry
> ... You might
> be surprised to learn that much of what he has read and
> learned through books has made him a pretty good
> fisherman. ...
Might be ?!? Yeah, you could say that. ;-)
> You should try it sometime instead of taking
> the "I know best" road. ...
Well pardon me, Mr. Know-It-All, but if there's anybody on earth who
gets to choose the best road for me, it's gonna be the guy who wipes
my lily white ass every morning.
> Any angler that isn't up for
> changing their approach or methods isn't worth a shit.
> The mark of a good fisherman is that they will adapt,
> progress and learn based upon the knowledge they have
> gained from observation, experience and any other means
> they have found.
Yeah, yeah. I went through that phase, myself. Don't worry, if you
can get enough fishing time in over the next decade or two, you'll
probably outgrow all that folderol.
--
Ken Fortenberry
Warren
> Sorry Myron, that's not an official roff moniker. The only one who ever
> called you that was the fucking creep Hart. But, as an aside, we only
> need two more citations by two different roffians to make "fucking creep"
> Hart's official roff moniker. ;-)
Uhhhh, one more you mean.....
Warren
> Might be ?!? Yeah, you could say that. ;-)
Well, stuff like that happens when you pull your head
from your ass long enough to see what is really going on
around you.
> Well pardon me, Mr. Know-It-All, but if there's anybody on earth who
> gets to choose the best road for me, it's gonna be the guy who wipes
> my lily white ass every morning.
Unlike you, I never claimed to know everything or choose
one method of fly fishing over another. So what you're
saying is that your nurse gets to chose what's the best
road for you? If that's what suits you..... What is it
with you and ass anyway?
> Yeah, yeah. I went through that phase, myself. Don't worry, if you
> can get enough fishing time in over the next decade or two, you'll
> probably outgrow all that folderol.
I get more fishing time in one year than you get in
four..... You might try it sometime. It is called
turning off the computer and joining real life and going
out for some real life experiences. I know you are a
dedicated nethead, but your fishing experience is
stagnating because of it. So is your mind. Oh yeah,
sorry I forgot Yellowstone Kenny, trout fishing and
Illinois just don't go together that well..... Unlike
you, I actually took the advice you once gave me. It
seems that you have forgotten that good piece of advice
and let yourself suffer because of it.
BTW, RW still says "Fuck you dipshit!" <g>
BTW2, I'll still put you up if you are ready for DePuy's
this year. We'll chat about this some more over that
turpentine that you call scotch. I'll save you from
yourself to return the favor. ;-)
Wayne Harrison
"Warren" <m...@privacy.net> wrote
. We'll chat about this some more over that
> turpentine that you call scotch. I'll save you from
> yourself to return the favor. ;-)
ah, grasshopper, what a task you have set for yourself...
yfitons
wayno
Warren
> ah, grasshopper, what a task you have set for yourself...
Aw hell, I have done it before and can do it again. My
liver should be able to hold. . . ;-)
jeffc
> >>
> >>There's an adage among concert musicians that goes;
> >>Young, inexperienced musicians don't want to play Mozart because
> >>it's too easy and older, experienced musicians don't want to play
> >>Mozart because it's so difficult.
> >
> > There's a saying among ROFFians that goes; Ken is a putz.
>
> Nothing you hate worse than having your "seasoned expert" persona
> exposed as a fraud.
Wait... you think your "inner circle jerk" musicians' comment did that?
splork! No, you'd have to actually get out from behind your computer and
into the water and fished with me to know that. Like, say, rw for instance,
you moron.
Ken Fortenberry
>
>... No, you'd have to actually get out from behind your computer and
> into the water and fished with me to know that. ...
I've fished with you, you smarmy little twit. Granted, it was two or three
summers ago, but you were the world's foremost "armchair expert" on roff
and a clueless, clumsy dumbfuck on the stream. Hell, kiddo, you weren't
even within a mile of a clue, but to read your self-important bloviations
here on roff one would've thought you'd given Lefty lessons.
Warren says you've improved over the years, I wouldn't know, fishing with
smarmy twits ranks pretty low on my to-do list, but it would be nigh on
impossible for you NOT to have improved.
Read any good books lately ?
--
Ken Fortenberry
Warren
> I've fished with you, you smarmy little twit. Granted, it was two or three
> summers ago, but you were the world's foremost "armchair expert" on roff
> and a clueless, clumsy dumbfuck on the stream. Hell, kiddo, you weren't
> even within a mile of a clue, but to read your self-important bloviations
> here on roff one would've thought you'd given Lefty lessons.
I don't know, I have met many that were a lot worse than
JeffC was. I have met some that even think dry flies
are the only way to fish. ;-)
> Warren says you've improved over the years, I wouldn't know, fishing with
> smarmy twits ranks pretty low on my to-do list, but it would be nigh on
> impossible for you NOT to have improved.
Ken, you need to open yourself up to the world before
you. There is a lot to learn out there and you only
have a short amount of time on this earth to do it.
Trying to proclaim yourself as a master fisherman who is
too good to give Lefty a lesson is a waste of valuable
time. You really should get your ass out on the stream
again soon to refresh yourself with what fishing is
first hand instead of the fond memories you hold of what
fishing should be or used to be.
> Read any good books lately ?
Been fishing lately?
BTW, RW says to pass along a "Stop fondling your dick in
front of the montitor and fuck you dipshit." <g>
Tim J.
"Warren" wrote...
> BTW, RW says . . .
Somehow, when you pass it along it's just not the same. ;-)
--
TL,
Tim
http://css.sbcma.com/timj
jeffc
> jeffc wrote:
> >
> >... No, you'd have to actually get out from behind your computer and
> > into the water and fished with me to know that. ...
>
> I've fished with you, you smarmy little twit. Granted, it was two or three
> summers ago, but you were the world's foremost "armchair expert" on roff
> and a clueless, clumsy dumbfuck on the stream.
Man you're pathetic. I outfished you about 4 to 1, and that's being
generous since all you caught was a whitefish. I fished with dries and
nymphs both, and caught trout. Willi did the same. Between you and him,
take a wild guess at who taught me a couple things?
Ken Fortenberry
> "Ken Fortenberry" wrote:
>>... you were the world's foremost "armchair expert" on roff
>>and a clueless, clumsy dumbfuck on the stream.
>
> Man you're pathetic. I outfished you about 4 to 1, and that's being
> generous since all you caught was a whitefish. ...
Good lord, you truly are a deluded and clueless ingrate. I generously
and unobtrusively placed you right on the most productive seams to make
sure you were in a position to catch fish and you were so totally without
a fuckin' clue you didn't have the foggiest idea what was going on, still
don't apparently. When it became clear that you didn't know shit from
shinola and weren't likely to learn, I went to the upstream side of the
bridge to fish by myself. But I didn't keep count.
--
Ken Fortenberry
Dave LaCourse
fished it, and caught fish. I didn't look upon him as being "clueless". The
Rapid can be a very technical stream and unless you know it well, you probably
won't do well. I saw Jeff nymph water and catch his fair share of brookies and
salmon. I believe he also fished dries with some success. At the "flotilla"
on Henry's Fork Clave, he and I were the only ones to catch fish.
How's come you never come to Maine. You'd love the dry fly fishing in the
spring and fall.
Dave
Ken Fortenberry
> Ken, I fished with Jeff C. at the first Maine Clave. I showed him water, he
> fished it, and caught fish. I didn't look upon him as being "clueless".
I fished with him at the first Western 'Clave and never again since. He
was nowhere near as accomplished as his authoritative bluster on roff
would have led me to believe. He was closer to "clueless" than "expert"
and his book learning bombast here was designed to mislead folks into
believing the exact opposite. I think he's a smarmy little twit. YMMV.
> ...
> How's come you never come to Maine. You'd love the dry fly fishing in the
> spring and fall.
Yeah, I should do that one of these days. I love brookies, especially BIG
brookies. ;-)
--
Ken Fortenberry
jeffc
>
> I fished with him at the first Western 'Clave and never again since. He
> was nowhere near as accomplished as his authoritative bluster on roff
> would have led me to believe. He was closer to "clueless" than "expert"
> and his book learning bombast here was designed to mislead folks into
> believing the exact opposite.
I post what I post for my own reasons and I don't answer to anyone about it,
least of all you. Search the Google archives until your fingers bleed and
you'll never find me EVER claiming to be good or expert. If you found me
authoritative, it could only be because you didn't know much yourself. You
assumed what you did, and that's your problem. I offer advice to people who
ask, and I write and research what I do for personal reasons. Why the fuck
would I try to "mislead" anyone when I would be showing up to fish with them
in person in the months to follow? You're a stupid petty person Ken. And
fuck you.
Warren
> At the "flotilla"
> on Henry's Fork Clave, he and I were the only ones to catch fish.
I seem to remember Bruce and Willi catching fish under
the bridge before you even got in the boat. ;-)
Dave LaCourse
>I seem to remember Bruce and Willi catching fish under
>the bridge before you even got in the boat. ;-)
Don't remember seeing Bruce or Will in the flotilla.
Point is, Jeff C. can fish with the best of them.
Dave
jeffc
"Dave LaCourse" <dav...@aol.comPirate> wrote in message
news:20030911214648...@mb-m06.aol.com...
> Warren writes:
>
> >I seem to remember Bruce and Willi catching fish under
> >the bridge before you even got in the boat. ;-)
>
> Don't remember seeing Bruce or Will in the flotilla.
>
> Point is, Jeff C. can fish with the best of them.
I never claimed to be any good and still don't, but thanks for your words
anyway. When people ask questions on ROFF I answer a lot of them (I used to
answer a lot more) and some people still can't handle that, for whatever
stupid reason. Advice on the internet is worth what you pay for it, and the
person asking can judge for himself if it makes sense or if there's
consensus.
At claves, I've learned from almost everyone I've fished with - Dave, Bruce,
Willi, Warren, and everyone else. I ask questions of almost anyone, from
Gary Borger and Joe Humphreys to raw beginners, sometimes even when I think
I already know the answer. Sometimes I even learn something from the
beginners. If they see me fish and don't think I'm worth asking questions
of, that's fine with me, and if they think they can learn something from me,
that's their business, not Ken's.
pw
-pw
pw
livingston,montana
please use "pw at williamsonenterprises dot com" for e-mail
thanks
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Guyz-N-Flyz
"Dave LaCourse" <dav...@aol.comPirate> wrote in message
news:20030911214648...@mb-m06.aol.com...
>
> Point is, Jeff C. can fish with the best of them.
> Dave
He could, but I just can't seem to get him to fish with me, go figure.
Op --now which "best of them" was we talkin' about?--
John Kowalski
day we drove up to the Virginia Lakes to fish. We found that on the first
lake there were few rises. On the second lake, we saw an abundance of rises
and got excited. We decided to have our lunch and watch for awile before
suiting up to go out in our float tubes. While we were eating, a group of
fishermen decided to quit fishing and were walking past us. I asked how
they were doing. their response was "The bites off, we haven't caught
anything in three days. The bites off" When I asked what they had been
using, they listed a litany of nymphs!
"George Cleveland" <georgec...@email.msn.com> wrote in message
news:3f5e6ff6...@news.cis.dfn.de...
> On Tue, 09 Sep 2003 05:22:08 GMT, "Bill Kiene" <bki...@pacbell.net> wrote:
>
> >Hi U All,
> >
> >There is a time when you need to think about moving on. When you are
always
> >catching more fish than anyone else on the stream with your "indicator,
> >split shot nymphs system" you might think about trying some real fly
> >fishing?
> >
>
> >--
> >Bill Kiene
> >
> >Kiene's Fly Shop
> >Sacramento, CA
> >www.kiene.com
> >
> >
>
> While I usually dislike casting an indicator, split shot and a fly or two,
there
> are times when it is an enjoyable way to fish. At its best it reminds me
of the
> Unexcelled, All Time Greatest, Most Satisfying Fishing Experience in the
history
> of this little bit of eternity i.e.; being 7 years old, sitting by the
side of a
> lake by yourself (no grownups!), dangling a hook you baited yourself (no
> grownups!!) under a red and white bobber and watching it twitch and dance
and
> then vanish!!! Before you pull in that 5" sunny or skinny perch...before
you
> bring up your hook, naked as your little brother in the bath tub... before
you
> pull back so hard but the weeds on the bottom pull back harder...you could
be
> hooked to anything, anything at all. Sometimes indicator fishing is almost
like
> that. So I have a soft spot for bobbers. Sometimes you never know.
>
>
> g.c.
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jeffc
"Guyz-N-Flyz" <ah...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:bk056k$npc7l$1...@ID-81311.news.uni-berlin.de...
>
> "Dave LaCourse" <dav...@aol.comPirate> wrote in message
> news:20030911214648...@mb-m06.aol.com...
>
> >
> > Point is, Jeff C. can fish with the best of them.
> > Dave
>
> He could, but I just can't seem to get him to fish with me, go figure.
Just for the record, you ditched me first (first NC Clave.) Guess I never
did get over it.... :-) Seriously, heading over to your place is one of
those things I keep in the back of mind to do "real soon". You know how
that goes. The last time I fished in NC was over a year ago I think,
believe it or not......
JR
>
> .... they listed a litany of nymphs!
Like it. Up there with a murmuration of starlings.
JR