Generator - Maybe Honda EU3000is not such a good idea...
Larry W4CSC
camper with my Honda EU3000is inverter genset that is powering my stepvan
shop. Everyone who has seen it and heard it are simply amazed by how quiet
this power plant is. Many boaters and RVers have mentioned getting one so
I'd like to warn them of what I found out, today.
In the SECOND supplement to the shop manual, Honda Power Equipment has
thrown a big, double-ended, ratchet wrench into my EU3000is
experience.......
This genset has been made since 1998 or 9. The date on the shop manual is
1998 for EU2600i and EU3000is. It's not a new unit.
The original maintenance schedule, 1998, is pretty easy and routine:
Oil - Check before use, change first 20 hours and every 100 hours after
that.
Air Cleaner (paper) Clean at 50 hours replace at 200 hours
Sediment cup in carb filter clean every 100 hours.
Spark Plug - clean/adj every 100 hours, replace every 300 hours
Spark Arrester in big muffler clean every 100 hours
Valve Clearance (OHV engine) check/adj every 300 hours
Fuel tank filter - check every 300 hours
fuel line check every 2 years, replace if necessary.
All this is pretty easy to get to and standard for gas, air-cooled engines.
In Dec 1999, page 3-1 was modified to CLEAN the fuel tank filter every 300
hours, which means draining the tank. Not easy but doable. The rest
remained the same, pretty much standard for small gas engines.
Then, Supplement 61ZT700Y came out (IPC 2600.2002.02) and, once again,
replaced page 3-1 in January 2002. A new, disturbing line had been added.
COMBUSTION CHAMBER - CLEAN EVERY 500 HOURS.
WHAT THE H___??!! EVERY 500 HOURS I GOTTA OVERHAUL IT?!!
Something is wrong. Let's call Honda to make sure they didn't mean every
5000 hours. I pointed this out to my Honda dealer and he said it was crazy
and probably wrong. So, I called the factory:
American Honda Power Equipment Division
4900 Marconi Dr.
Alpharetta, GA 30005-2519
678-339-2600
Mon. - Fri. 8:30 - 5:00 EST
Customer Relations
Tel: 770-497-6400
Fax: 678-339-2519
Mon. - Fri. 8:30 - 5:30 EST
FOUR times, today, to talk to the talking heads in Customer Relations, the
office kids. One wonders if any of them could tell the difference between
the carb float and the oil level sensor float, or between the crankshaft
and the valves....???
I was put on hold for a local conversation without my hearing it.....
I was told, Yes, Honda Engineers want me to DISASSEMBLE THE WHOLE TOP OF
THE ENGINE EVERY 500 HOURS AND CLEAN OUT THE CARBON DEPOSITS.
I run this genset about 6-8 hours a work day, probably more in hot summer.
This means that EVERY OTHER or THIRD MONTH I've gotta take the whole end
off the cabinet, remove the entire air cooling shroud, exhaust system,
unbolt the overhead valve-containing head off the engine (which will surely
screw up the OHV somehow), clean the carbon off the oil-cooled head, piston
top, and cylinder/rings, then reassemble it all back the way it was with
NEW GASKETS, RETORQUING THE HEAD BOLTS, of course......EVERY OTHER OR THIRD
MONTH? I hope Honda CARS and expensive 6-cylinder MOTORCYCLES don't
suddenly fall victim to this requirement! This is a GENSET, NOT a super-
high-performance, 30,000 RPM, Formula One racing machine! IT RUNS AT 1200
RPM UNTIL THE LOAD IS OVER 1800 WATTS!!
"What went wrong with this engine that suddenly requires this new MAJOR
maintenance item that will take longer and cost far more than all the other
maintenance steps for this engine, COMBINED?", I questioned. Of course,
being the office boys, they had no idea of the WHY and, to date, I cannot
find the name and phone number of anyone related to the Honda ENGINEERS who
made this questionable decision. Maybe they don't have phones! are
slaves! Noone will answer this question, so I'm asking all of you if you
know of anything like this?
Somethin' ain't right with ANY 1-cyl engine you have to disassemble and
clean every 500 hours!.....My dealer even agrees! If anyone at Honda Power
Equipment reads this message, please answer the question for all of us!
Larry
Pissed off owner.....
What would happen to our warranty claims if we required some off-the-wall
crazy, EXPENSIVE maintenance item in the schedule everyone refused to do?
Will we be able to blame any problems on NOT following the maintenance
schedule, no matter how crazy it is? How crazy is too crazy? Can car
manufacturers absolve themselves by requiring you to change the crankshaft
every 12,000 miles??
DAMN A GOOD TORQUE WRENCH IS EXPENSIVE THESE DAYS!!
Dave Thompson
"Larry W4CSC" <no...@home.com> wrote in message
news:Xns94DAC8A...@216.168.3.44...
>
> Then, Supplement 61ZT700Y came out (IPC 2600.2002.02) and, once again,
> replaced page 3-1 in January 2002. A new, disturbing line had been added.
>
> COMBUSTION CHAMBER - CLEAN EVERY 500 HOURS.
>
> WHAT THE H___??!! EVERY 500 HOURS I GOTTA OVERHAUL IT?!!
>
> Something is wrong.
Nope. Air cooled engines require that sort of top end maintenance. Look at
any Onan manual. Heck, look at any Continental or Lycoming manual.
Is it always done on air cooled generators? Nope. Should it be. Yep.
--
Dave Thompson
Larry W4CSC
news:19hkc.8607$A27.4332@fed1read06:
It wasn't done until 2002, but now every Honda manual I pull up on the net
says it needs to be done.
I'm beginning to think this is one of those EPA-CARB intrusions....
phil willen
My Onan crapped out at 700 hrs. We were in Maine at the time
and went to an Onan distributor. They said it was the cahbin
(carbon in english). Had to pull the unit out and pull the heads.
Not cheap. They said it was from letting it idle too much.
I wouldn't pull the heads, unless it wasn't running properly.
The good news was that the unit still had the machining
marks on the bores. You might try running a cleaner like
techron every once in a while to keep the carbon down.
Paul Deen
interval but if I didn't do it I was without air conditioning.
SO
I decided that there was a better way. I had worked on car engines that had cracked
heads where the water could get into the combustion chamber and the pistons were always
spotless. So this is what I did.
1. pull air cleaner
2. start genset and run with light load
3. spritz water into carb with small spray bottle
4. watch CRAP blow out of exhaust
Don't try to flood the engine with water, just a light spray. If you use too much,
engine will stumble hard and die. If it does it will be hard to start but it will. Keep
it up until exhaust cleans up.
I did this for two years, sold coach to brother-in-law and showed technique to him and
he kept it 2 more years and never had to tear engine down again.
Paul Deen
'94 Chev. Kodiak
2000 38' Avion 5er
KBo...@noe-mail.net
>> COMBUSTION CHAMBER - CLEAN EVERY 500 HOURS.
>>
>> WHAT THE H___??!! EVERY 500 HOURS I GOTTA OVERHAUL IT?!!
>>
>> Something is wrong.
>
>Nope. Air cooled engines require that sort of top end maintenance. Look at
>any Onan manual. Heck, look at any Continental or Lycoming manual.
>
>Is it always done on air cooled generators? Nope. Should it be. Yep.
BS!, I owned a '67 Mooney for 17 years.
Other than a normal top overhaul, it never had to be cleaned out on a maintenance schedule.
I just bought an EU3000 and IF it needs cleaning, I'll use a spray bottle and spritz some water into the intake.
Ken B.
Alan Robinson
"Paul Deen" <pd...@XXraytheon.com> wrote in message
news:409245AA...@XXraytheon.com...
> I had an Onan in my 76 class C and it had to be cleaned also. Don't
remember the
> interval but if I didn't do it I was without air conditioning.
>
> SO
>
> I decided that there was a better way. I had worked on car engines that
had cracked
> heads where the water could get into the combustion chamber and the
pistons were always
> spotless. So this is what I did.
>
> 1. pull air cleaner
> 2. start genset and run with light load
> 3. spritz water into carb with small spray bottle
> 4. watch CRAP blow out of exhaust
>
> Don't try to flood the engine with water, just a light spray. If you use
too much,
> engine will stumble hard and die. If it does it will be hard to start but
it will. Keep
> it up until exhaust cleans up.
>
> I did this for two years, sold coach to brother-in-law and showed
technique to him and
> he kept it 2 more years and never had to tear engine down again.
>
> Paul Deen
> '94 Chev. Kodiak
> 2000 38' Avion 5er
>
Onan has a treatment called 4C (Combustion Chamber and Carburetor
Cleaner, IIRC) that can be used to remove -most- of the carbon buildup in a
similar fashion. Spray it down the carb throat with the genset running,
spray the last 1-2 ounces fast enough to stall the engine. Let sit for 30
minutes, restart genset, cycle between no load and full load for 15 min to
assist in breaking carbon loose. It will remove probably 90% of the carbon -
doesn't mean that you won't eventually have to pull the heads, but with
average rv useage, the rig will probably be on at least the fourth owner by
that time.
At least on an Onan, the first symptom of excessive carbon buildup will
be 'pinging' under heavy loads (when everything else is set right). When the
carbon buildup is -really- bad, you'll get what sounds like 'rod knock' but
is really the carbon on the piston hitting the carbon on the head.
Unfortunately, when it is that bad, 4C won't remove the carbon causing the
noise because it's been compressed into 'concrete' - hard to get off even
when you -do- pull the heads.
There are probably other products out there to do the same thing - this
is just the one I've had experience with. You might check to see if Honda
has a similar product (and will accept its use instead of the teardown).
Alan
Larry W4CSC
Honda owner's manuals with the latest addition off the internet, every one
of them suddenly needed this service. From that sudden change, we deduced
this was a requirement of some government bureaucrat at the EPA or
California CARB in order to put the Hondas on the market. Everyone else's
manuals, which I can't find on their websites, probably all say the same
thing.....by government edict.
Larry
(According to the thinking at EPA about 2-stroke outboards, every lake in
America should be about 3' deep in floating motor oil since 1928.)
RAM^3
news:c6uu71$ffojv$1...@ID-83269.news.uni-berlin.de...
How frequently would you recommend using 4C on a CME7000?
phil willen
could cause them to hydraulic and bend a rod or break a piston.
We used to do that to our old Ford flatheads.
Dave Thompson
"phil willen" <irp...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:40933783...@earthlink.net...
Spray! SPRAY!! The word "pour" was not used in the thread.
--
Dave Thompson
Neon John
wrote:
>
>How frequently would you recommend using 4C on a CME7000?
>
Unless your generator is burning significant oil, never. With modern gas,
combustion chamber deposits are a thing of the past under normal conditions.
I have a Generac 8kw generator on my bench right now with the head off. It
has just a little under 2000 hours on the clock and has sunk a valve. The top
of the piston and the combustion chamber are practically spotless. They have
a dark patina on top of the bare aluminum.
I have a spark plug on my desk here that ran for 20 years in my pressure
washer that I purchased in 1984. It even has some lead deposits on the
insulator! Even with leaded gas in the beginning the shell is perfectly
clean. Again, a slight patina over the metal. The insulator developed a
semi-conductive film that caused hard starting, the reason I changed it out.
I think I'll mount it on a plaque or something :-)
At Alan's suggestion I tried a can of 4C on my old Onan AJ, a real oil burner
where combustion chamber deposits were visible through the sparkplug hole. It
worked pretty well. The interesting thing is, after scratching my noggin a
moment to recognize the smell, I realized that it is little more than Marvel
Mystery Oil in an aerosol can. MMO is a well known treatment for carbon
buildup. Full retail on the 4C is >$12 (can't remember if I got clipped $14
or $18 for the can) so MMO is MUCH cheaper. I did see 4C at $CW$ for about $8
awhile back. Still, MMO is as close as your friendly local car parts store.
Or wallyworld.
John
---
John De Armond
johngdDO...@bellsouth.net
http://bellsouthpwp.net/j/o/johngd/
Cleveland, Occupied TN
Greg Smith
piston cleaning problem in automobiles. The site's author swore by some
elixer sold by Mopar dealers(I think). He had a certain procedure in that as
this stuff is poured into the carb, it will start to choke the engine. He
said to gradually rev the motor just enough to keep it running until the
last half or so of the can. Then open throttle wide as you dump the
remainder in, and shut it off(if it doesn't stop on it's own). He let's it
sit for a certain amount of hours, then recommends starting it up and giving
it lots of gas until it stops smoking.
I have not had the chance to try this and it's been a while since I read
this so all the details may be fuzzy or not be there at all.
Once upon a time I had it bookmarked and will try to find it. Perhaps some
well-seasoned mechanic can relate?
Greg Smith
"Paul Deen" <pd...@XXraytheon.com> wrote in message
news:409245AA...@XXraytheon.com...
Yofuri
news:dgd6909mvdgnbic1k...@4ax.com...
If you can talk your pharmacist or industrial chemist out of some methyl
salicylate, you can make your own. It dissolves rust, varnish, gum, etc.
Also, it makes great liniment (it's the minty-smelling stuff in the
deep-heat ointments).
Rick
Steve Elmore
"normal" oil burn inherent in Saturn engines. There's even a TSB from
Saturn to use when you burn more than "acceptable" 2 quarts every 3,000
miles. Basically, you pour the Top Cleaner through the spark plug hole when
the cylinders are at the halfway mark, let it sit over night, then vacuum it
out (our you can put a rag over the spark plug holes and crank the engine to
let the starter push most of it out). You can get the stuff from any GM
parts department, but it will only work if the cylinder is vertical.
"Greg Smith" <smi...@mylink.net> wrote in message
news:c6vfe...@enews4.newsguy.com...
Ben Hogland
enough for me not to buy a Saturn..
Ben
"Steve Elmore" <sel...@one.net> wrote in message
news:1097ndo...@corp.supernews.com...
D.J. Osborn
> Wow. ""acceptable" 2 quarts every 3,000". That, by itself, is argument
> enough for me not to buy a Saturn..
If you do some checking, then I believe you'll find that *most*
manufacturers consider that to be an acceptable amount of oil usage. I have
yet to hear of *any* manufacturer who replaced an engine simply because it
used a quart of oil every 1,500 miles. Have *you* ever heard of a
manufacturer replacing an engine for that reason?
--
D.J., N8DO; FMCA 147762
davidjosborn at sbcglobal dot net
Ben Hogland
"D.J. Osborn" <davidj...@sbcglobally.net> wrote in message
news:J7Tkc.1546$eH1.9...@newssvr28.news.prodigy.com...
> If you do some checking, then I believe you'll find that *most*
> manufacturers consider that to be an acceptable amount of oil usage. I
have
> yet to hear of *any* manufacturer who replaced an engine simply
because it
> used a quart of oil every 1,500 miles. Have *you* ever heard of a
> manufacturer replacing an engine for that reason?
Nope.. But if it's a common problem with one particular model/make more
than others, I'll not buy that model/make .
George E. Cawthon
Ford truck doesn't burn any measurable oil between oil changes and my
kids Saturn doesn't show any change in level between oi changes. So
what is state as acceptable by a manufacture is mostly a CYA statment
and ha little or no relevance to the typical experience.
D.J. Osborn
Do you have any evidence that "it's a common problem with one particular
model/make more than others"?
D.J. Osborn
> Ha. You ought to see what Ford says is acceptable. Nonetheless, my
> Ford truck doesn't burn any measurable oil between oil changes and my
> kids Saturn doesn't show any change in level between oi changes. So
> what is state as acceptable by a manufacture is mostly a CYA statment
> and ha little or no relevance to the typical experience.
That's absolutely correct.
Ben Hogland
"D.J. Osborn" <davidj...@sbcglobally.net> wrote in message
news:O_Ukc.1607$eH1.9...@newssvr28.news.prodigy.com...
>
> Do you have any evidence that "it's a common problem with one
particular
> model/make more than others"?
No, other than the last gentleman's post.. I will be asking other
Saturn owners out of curiosity as the opportunity arises. BTW, do you
have a Saturn?
Ben
D.J. Osborn
HeatMan
> "Ben Hogland" <benho...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Wow. ""acceptable" 2 quarts every 3,000". That, by itself, is argument
> > enough for me not to buy a Saturn..
>
>
> If you do some checking, then I believe you'll find that *most*
> manufacturers consider that to be an acceptable amount of oil usage. I
have
> yet to hear of *any* manufacturer who replaced an engine simply because it
> used a quart of oil every 1,500 miles. Have *you* ever heard of a
> manufacturer replacing an engine for that reason?
>
My Dad did with a 1977 Dodge truck. They replaced the engine to get him off
their back.....
Steve Elmore
a common problem with the Ecotech engine. You will also find the GM Engine
Top Cleaner solution has worked for some Saturn owners to remove carbon
deposit and loosen stuck rings (in an attempt to keep this post on topic).
"Ben Hogland" <benho...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:c717on$ft3gg$1...@ID-62937.news.uni-berlin.de...
D.J. Osborn
"HeatMan" <Hea...@NOSPAM.yahoo.com> wrote:
> "D.J. Osborn" <davidj...@sbcglobally.net> wrote:
> > If you do some checking, then I believe you'll find that *most*
> > manufacturers consider that to be an acceptable amount of oil usage. I
> have
> > yet to hear of *any* manufacturer who replaced an engine simply because
it
> > used a quart of oil every 1,500 miles. Have *you* ever heard of a
> > manufacturer replacing an engine for that reason?
> >
>
> My Dad did with a 1977 Dodge truck. They replaced the engine to get him
off
> their back.....
Let me get this straight: You're stating that they replaced an engine at no
cost to your father because it had absolutely no problems except that it
burned a quart of oil every 1,500 miles. Is that correct?
B. Peg
> Let me get this straight: You're stating that they replaced an engine at
no
> cost to your father because it had absolutely no problems except that it
> burned a quart of oil every 1,500 miles. Is that correct?
Some years ago Toyota replaced mine at 2,000 miles as it was using oil (1
quart). Car was a demo and dealer felt it may not have had the rings broken
it correctly so they replaced the engine as it was easier than pulling it
apart to the ring and hone job and rings (new engine design) would have
taken longer to get.
It was free and took one day to do.
B~
Mike F
yesterday. Ford sez anything over 500 miles per quart is acceptable.
Mike F
P.S. Doesn't seem to have hurt it yet.
"Ben Hogland" <benho...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:c70u0q$gv7g9$1...@ID-62937.news.uni-berlin.de...
Alan Robinson
"RAM^3" <S31924...@netscape.net> wrote in message
news:c6v7o2$gm6mk$1...@ID-203819.news.uni-berlin.de...
> "Alan Robinson" <a...@bmi.net> wrote in message
> news:c6uu71$ffojv$1...@ID-83269.news.uni-berlin.de...
> > >
> > Onan has a treatment called 4C (Combustion Chamber and Carburetor
> > Cleaner, IIRC) that can be used to remove -most- of the carbon buildup
in
> >a
> > similar fashion.
>
>
>
That would be a judgement call, based mostly on how you use your genset. If
you run it long enough and under enough load for it to get completely warmed
up, you won't get much carbon buildup. If you are in the habit of running
the genset for 5 minutes while 'nuking' something in the microwave then
shutting it down, you'll get a lot more. Best indication would be the amount
of buildup visible in the sparkplug - if there is a significant amount of
carbon at the scheduled tuneup time (150 hrs IIRC), run 4C thru before you
put in new plugs etc. If the plug doesn't have significant buildup, I
(personally) would use it about every 500 hrs - as a preventive measure, not
saying that it definitely needs it at that point.
To put it in perspective, I've only had to pull heads to manually decarbon 3
gensets in 12 years - 2 were in rv's that (by the hourmeter) had less than 5
hrs/yr of use, 1 was in a cable co. bucket truck with a lot more hours, but
an operator who was in the habit of running the genset just long enough to
position or stow the bucket.
Alan
RAM^3
Fair enough!
Normally, ours gets _used_ when it gets used: once fired up, it's usually
running for several hours at a time.
So far, the average is over 6 hours at a time, mainly to provide A/C and/or
heat when shore power was unavailable. After all, that's why it was
installed. ;)
While my previous experience with one of these things was about 45 years
ago, I doubt that today's Onans are any less dependable than the one my Dad
had acquired after its "retirement" from an oilfield logging truck in the
mid-50s. [He claimed that the two-cylinder opposed engine had originally
been intended for WW2 target drones.] After he died in '59, that unit was
sold to a neighbor who was still using it 10 years later.
Yeah, I like my Onan!
HeatMan
and get 3-4 quart cans until the SM got pissed and replaced the engine.
That was when Dodge was in real trouble financially....
D.J. Osborn
That's a *whole* lot different than a quart every 1,500 miles.
HeatMan
Same basic principle.....
D.J. Osborn
> "D.J. Osborn" <davidj...@sbcglobally.net> wrote in message
> news:Hzblc.841$KM7...@newssvr15.news.prodigy.com...
> > "HeatMan" <Hea...@NOSPAM.yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> > >> "D.J. Osborn" <davidj...@sbcglobally.net> wrote:
> > > > Let me get this straight: You're stating that they replaced an
engine
> at
> > > no
> > > > cost to your father because it had absolutely no problems except
that
> it
> > > > burned a quart of oil every 1,500 miles. Is that correct?
> > > >
> > > Actually, it was a quart about every 100 miles. He's stop by once a
> week
> > > and get 3-4 quart cans until the SM got pissed and replaced the
engine.
> > >
> > > That was when Dodge was in real trouble financially....
> >
> >
> > That's a *whole* lot different than a quart every 1,500 miles.
>
> Same basic principle.....
Nope. Fifteen hundred miles is 15 times as much as 100 miles, which makes
the replacement of an engine simply because of excessive oil consumption a
completely different "basic principle" at one value as compared with the
other.
Perry Noid
which in itself can easily create worse problems if not done correctly
:o/ Plus this can be done more often with little risk. Thanks for the
info!
Don
> Let me get this straight: You're stating that they replaced an engine at
no
> cost to your father because it had absolutely no problems except that it
> burned a quart of oil every 1,500 miles. Is that correct?
Burning a quart of oil every 1500 miles would result in smoke in the
exhaust, right?
If so, would there be enough smoke to cause a cop to pull you over?
D.J. Osborn
> Burning a quart of oil every 1500 miles would result in smoke in the
> exhaust, right?
Probably not enough to be seen.
> If so, would there be enough smoke to cause a cop to pull you over?
Probably not.
Larry W4CSC
62937.news.uni-berlin.de:
> Wow. ""acceptable" 2 quarts every 3,000". That, by itself, is argument
> enough for me not to buy a Saturn..
>
> Ben
>
It's that great GM feeling.....sorta like my 1980 Pontiac Bonneville DIESEL
POS I had to give away.....
Steve Wolf
> > enough for me not to buy a Saturn..
I have a Saturn. I have no problems. I have many friends that have
Saturns. They have no problems. There are dozens on this newsgroup who tow
Saturns. They have no problems.
Is there a certain class of Saturn or a certain period in which this problem
appears?
We have all had such a good experience with these cars that I am considering
another for the kid (with tow tabs, of course). The Saturns like my 96, the
ones that work so very well, are dirt cheap as there are so many available.
I'd like to know what to avoid. I am suspicious that the cars with the
problems are abused or not maintained.
Thanks,
Steve
Will Sill
>I have a Saturn. I have no problems. I have many friends that have
>Saturns. They have no problems. There are dozens on this newsgroup who tow
>Saturns. They have no problems.
My daughter also has one and it does not "burn oil". People who say
Saturns are no good are the same ones who have a Firestone tire go
flat and swear they'll never buy another one.
Frankly, I don't like the care very well but it's a decent econobox.
Will Sill