Silly question
MdmMalice1
I'm not asking this to 1) get flamed (which I hope doesn't happen) or 2)
show my ignorance, but I've been bothered by this for a long time and I
hope to find some sort of answer here.
Say I'm strolling along at an event and I meet someone new. I introduce
myself and offer the information that I'm French Cavalier (yeah, yeah I
know, OOP), and I'm told "Well I'm Lord/Lady X and I'm Celtic" I then ask
the next reasonable question (at least in my mind), which is "Celtic what?
or Celtic when?" and usually get a blank stare as a response.
Am I nuts or is my memory simply failing me in recalling that the 'Celtic'
peoples lived at one time or another all the way from the central European
lands, down into the Spanish, through Gaul (France) and then up to
England/Ireland/Scotland? And that they were tribal and identified
themselves as such? (ex. Lord X of the Y people) And that the times of
these people's existance was not a solid band of time, but overlapping
with tribes intermarrying, dying out and being assimulated into other,
possibly native populations?
For me, being French Cavalier, I can say where and when *I* existed, time,
place and developmental history. Why then, when I sometimes meet a 'Celt'
is all I get, "Hi, I'm Lord/Lady X and I'm Celtic" I'm not sure, but
that's somewhat like saying "Hello, I'm Caucasian" So..am I expecting too
much from this type of situation, or is it, as I think, that there exists
a lot of information that these "Hello, I'm a Celt" people simply are not
aware of or choose to ignore?
Again, this was not meant to insult anyone...just something that I've
noticed and wondered about for some time.
Melistra
Lady Melistra D'Ombree, AoA Trimaris
Bryan J. Maloney
In article <19970407193...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
mdmma...@aol.com (MdmMalice1) wrote:
> is all I get, "Hi, I'm Lord/Lady X and I'm Celtic" I'm not sure, but
> that's somewhat like saying "Hello, I'm Caucasian" So..am I expecting too
> much from this type of situation, or is it, as I think, that there exists
> a lot of information that these "Hello, I'm a Celt" people simply are not
> aware of or choose to ignore?
BINGO! You have run into the ignorant geek phenomenon, big time.
Arval d'Espas Nord
Melistra asked:
> Why then, when I sometimes meet a 'Celt' is all I get, "Hi, I'm Lord/Lady
> X and I'm Celtic" I'm not sure, but that's somewhat like saying "Hello,
> I'm Caucasian"
Yup.
> So..am I expecting too much from this type of situation, or is it, as I
> think, that there exists a lot of information that these "Hello, I'm a
> Celt" people simply are not aware of or choose to ignore?
Those are the two possibilities.
===========================================================================
Arval d'Espas Nord mit...@panix.com
Martin Hungerford
Bryan J. Maloney wrote:
>
> In article <19970407193...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
> mdmma...@aol.com (MdmMalice1) wrote:
>
> > much from this type of situation, or is it, as I think, that there exists
> > a lot of information that these "Hello, I'm a Celt" people simply are not
> > aware of or choose to ignore?
>
Hi! I'm martin and I'm human.
Leave them dumb geeks alone!
...hopefully they'll learn something if they are not driven away. Mind
you, they drove me away...
Martin o' lyos
Heather Rose Jones
MdmMalice1 (mdmma...@aol.com) wrote:
: For me, being French Cavalier, I can say where and when *I* existed, time,
: place and developmental history. Why then, when I sometimes meet a 'Celt'
: is all I get, "Hi, I'm Lord/Lady X and I'm Celtic" I'm not sure, but
: that's somewhat like saying "Hello, I'm Caucasian"
Well, it's not _quite_ that broadly sweeping ....
: So..am I expecting too
: much from this type of situation, or is it, as I think, that there exists
: a lot of information that these "Hello, I'm a Celt" people simply are not
: aware of or choose to ignore?
When I run into this phenomenon -- and as someone who does a lot of
research on the various Celtic cultures both in the SCA and mundanely, I
run into it a lot -- there seem to be two primary motivations for this
sort of use of the words "Celt" and "Celtic".
The first motivation is that there are an unfortunately large number of
people out there who think that "Celtic" is synonymous with "Gaelic"
(either in the narrow scope of language, or in the broader context of
culture). Modern pop culture reinforces this notion. What is "Celtic
music"? It's either Irish or Scottish or some blend of the two. (A subset
of the phenomenon are those who consider "Celtic" synonymous with "Irish",
to the exclusion of the Scots.) What is "Celtic art"? It's the artistic
styles and motifs associated with early Irish manuscripts such as the Book
of Kells. People working within this understanding of the term "Celt" may
simply be oblivious to the existence of non-Gaelic Celtic cultures (e.g.,
the Welsh and Bretons); or they may be aware of them but not consider them
"Celtic"; or they may simply consider Irish (and Scottish) culture to be
the "unmarked" manifestation of "Celtic" with non-Gaelic Celtic cultures
being simultaneously subsumed, marginalized, and effaced parallel to the
way that women tend to get subsumed and marginalized, and effaced when the
word "men" is used to mean "human beings".
The use of "Celtic" noted above has a second motivating context, however,
in the modern creation of an un-historic jumble of cultural motifs and
manifestations that have been assembled and interpreted (often in the
context of a particular subculture, such as fantasy literature, or New Age
or Neo-Pagan spirituality) as a unified and coherent whole. In the context
of _modern_ pop culture, this understanding of the use of "Celtic" has a
reasonably consistent and accessible interpretation. However this
interpretation has very little correspondence to any actual historic
culture or phenomenon.
There _is_ a third possibility -- which is that someone is using the term
"Celtic" to refer to a persona of the continental La Tene or even
Hallstatt cultures, associated with the ancestors of the historic Celtic
cultures and existing in a period prior to the differentiation of more
specifically named subcultures. (I can't say that I've ever actually run
into anyone using it in this way!)
Tangwystyl verch Morgant Glasvryn
Ninni M Pettersson
Heather Rose Jones <hrj...@uclink.berkeley.edu> wrote:
> There _is_ a third possibility -- which is that someone is using the term
> "Celtic" to refer to a persona of the continental La Tene or even
> Hallstatt cultures, associated with the ancestors of the historic Celtic
> cultures and existing in a period prior to the differentiation of more
> specifically named subcultures. (I can't say that I've ever actually run
> into anyone using it in this way!)
This is indeed be the period I would primarily associate the term
"Celtic" with. Probably because of my earlier life as an art history
student, where "Celtic art" is used almost exclusively for artefacts of
the La Tene culture and its successors in Continental Europe and Britain
prior and during the Roman Empire. (Although I've heard the term "Celtic
Renaissance" being used for the Irish art of c. 400 - 1200 AD.)
To take the opportunity to give vent to my pet irritation:
I really think it's a great shame that the New Age, Neo-Pagan groups
appropriation of the common motifs in Irish ornamental art, has made it
almost impossible to use jewellery of that design, without being
regarded as in some way attached to values espoused by that "movement".
(At least that's the case here in Sweden, I don't know about the US.)
Adeliz
---------------------------------
Holmrike, Nordmark, Drachenwald
Mail-adress "anti-spammed" - remove INTE
*
MdmMalice1 <mdmma...@aol.com> wrote in article
<19970407193...@ladder01.news.aol.com>...
> Say I'm strolling along at an event and I meet someone new. I introduce
> myself and offer the information that I'm French Cavalier (yeah, yeah I
> know, OOP), and I'm told "Well I'm Lord/Lady X and I'm Celtic" I then
ask
> the next reasonable question (at least in my mind), which is "Celtic
what?
> or Celtic when?" and usually get a blank stare as a response.
> Melistra
> Lady Melistra D'Ombree, AoA Trimaris
Greetings,
There are several things that may be going on here. 1) a Celtic persona
has realitivly easy to make garb. so a lot of people start with "generic
Celtic persona" 2) you may also be running into a trend that I have noticed
in the last several years which is people who don't research a persona, but
picksomething out of the books and go with minimal persona development.
these people tend to be here more for the social aspect of the SCA ,
Totally acceptable. 3) Yes there could be some narrowing down of time
period because the Celts inhabit the British Isles to this day. The comment
about "Hi, I'm Caucasian." Would be more aplicable to the Gauls, all Celts
are Gauls, not all Gauls are Celtic. Gauls include many Germanic People,&
French.
I hope you get more responses on this because I am pulling all this out of
my head from when I did this research 10 years ago.
In Service and I hope I helped,
H.E. Ealdraed the Tall
Tyrca
Maybe those people who are simply "Celtic" are wanna be basket ball
players??
(VBEG)
Tyrca Ivarsdottir,oleander, AoA, OPN, ASTA
Barony of Namron, Ansteorra
"Life is uncertain, eat dessert first!"
@}----}----}--
Rob Bolin
MdmMalice1 wrote:
> (Big scissors go snip loudly)
>
> For me, being French Cavalier, I can say where and when *I* existed, time,
> place and developmental history. Why then, when I sometimes meet a 'Celt'
> is all I get, "Hi, I'm Lord/Lady X and I'm Celtic" I'm not sure, but
> much from this type of situation, or is it, as I think, that there exists
> a lot of information that these "Hello, I'm a Celt" people simply are not
> aware of or choose to ignore?
>
> noticed and wondered about for some time.
>
> Lady Melistra D'Ombree, AoA Trimaris
My Lady,
I understand both sides of this problem, so I will attempt to add my two
cents worth.
I appreciate that you have researched your persona and can pin it down to
a time and place, however some of us think that it is more trouble than
we wish to go to. Both are valid views of "The Dream".
Personally I am a Scot, which gets me into a kilt and allows me to be
hairy! As for my period - well I haven't pinned that down at the moment
and I may never do so.
I also have a dear friend who refuses to pin down any period because she
thinks she would feel too confined if she did and she shall remain of the
Gypsies wandering both the countryside and the period, depending on what
new garb she has taken a fancy to.
There are also those amongst us that are only new to the society and are
just starting out on the road to defining a persona, they may feel that
they would like to be a celt, but have not yet decided on a tribe or
time.
All of us have a right to Live the Dream as we see fit, I shall respect
and admire your defined persona and I hope that you will forgive and get
to know my nebulous one...
--
Adair MacDermid.....
(but Rob Bolin to the Pay Clerk....)
SquireEvan
>All of us have a right to Live the Dream as we see fit, I shall respect
>and admire your defined persona and I hope that you will forgive and get
>to know my nebulous one...
>--
>Adair MacDermid.....
Well said....
Lord Squire Evan Nathanial Hawkins,
House Northold,
Marquissette of the Sands,
Kingdom of Galandor,
Empire of Chivalry and Steel, Inc.
Rob Bolin
Heather Rose Jones wrote:
> (snip)
> The first motivation is that there are an unfortunately large number of
> people out there who think that "Celtic" is synonymous with "Gaelic"
> (either in the narrow scope of language, or in the broader context of
> culture). Modern pop culture reinforces this notion. What is "Celtic
> music"? It's either Irish or Scottish or some blend of the two. (A subset
> of the phenomenon are those who consider "Celtic" synonymous with "Irish",
> to the exclusion of the Scots.) What is "Celtic art"? It's the artistic
> styles and motifs associated with early Irish manuscripts such as the Book
> of Kells. People working within this understanding of the term "Celt" may
> simply be oblivious to the existence of non-Gaelic Celtic cultures (e.g.,
> the Welsh and Bretons); or they may be aware of them but not consider them
> "Celtic"; or they may simply consider Irish (and Scottish) culture to be
> the "unmarked" manifestation of "Celtic" with non-Gaelic Celtic cultures
> being simultaneously subsumed, marginalized, and effaced parallel to the
> way that women tend to get subsumed and marginalized, and effaced when the
> word "men" is used to mean "human beings".
> (more snips)
My lady,
I would disagree with this reason, as many that I know that call
themselves a 'Celt' know full well that there were many tribes and has
the effect of calling themselves a 'caucasian'. They have just decided
that they want to define themselves in a fairly nebulous way... this
allows the freedom that these people desire to move through various
times... The Dream is open to all... the minimum required is a name and
device not a 15 page resume of your persona's life history. If you wish
to do this good luck to you, I'm sure it would be as good read, but
please don't rain on our parade....
--
Rob Bolin
aka Adair MacDermid.....
Kristine E. Maitland
Bryan J. Maloney (bj...@cornell.edu) wrote:
: In article <19970407193...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
: mdmma...@aol.com (MdmMalice1) wrote:
: > is all I get, "Hi, I'm Lord/Lady X and I'm Celtic" I'm not sure, but
: > that's somewhat like saying "Hello, I'm Caucasian"
The amusing thing for me is that currently I find myself saying,
"Hi, I'm Signora Inez Rosanera and I'm not too sure if I'm black...yet."
I'm playing an Spanish "lady" in Italy but as of yet I have not found
documentation for black women in my "profession".
One thing one should note in the S.C.A.: black members aren't
necessarily playing black persona -- which really isn't a big deal
considering all the caucasians playing Japanese...;->
sinceremente
Inez Rosanera
Ealdormere
Kristine E. Maitland
: > is all I get, "Hi, I'm Lord/Lady X and I'm Celtic" I'm not sure, but
: > that's somewhat like saying "Hello, I'm Caucasian"
A thought just occurred to me. If someone came up to me in the SCA
and said, "Hello, I'm Caucasian" I'd assume that they were from the
Caucasus, in Georgia (we're talking eastern Europe here).
Inez Rosanera
Ealdormere
Bryan J. Maloney
In article <334F5A...@interact.net.au>, Rob Bolin
<bo...@interact.net.au> wrote:
> Personally I am a Scot, which gets me into a kilt and allows me to be
> hairy! As for my period - well I haven't pinned that down at the moment
> and I may never do so.
Nah, you're a Wild Irish Hielandman from the hinterlands of Scotland. A
Scot would never lower himself to put on a kilt (at least not until the
1800s). ;-)
Bryan J. Maloney
In article <335114...@interact.net.au>, Rob Bolin
<bo...@interact.net.au> wrote:
> I would disagree with this reason, as many that I know that call
> themselves a 'Celt' know full well that there were many tribes and has
> the effect of calling themselves a 'caucasian'. They have just decided
And a persona of "European" would be just about the same...
Bryan J. Maloney
In article <E8Mpsw.8tE...@torfree.net>, bq...@torfree.net
(Kristine E. Maitland) wrote:
> Bryan J. Maloney (bj...@cornell.edu) wrote:
> : In article <19970407193...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
> : mdmma...@aol.com (MdmMalice1) wrote:
>
> : > is all I get, "Hi, I'm Lord/Lady X and I'm Celtic" I'm not sure, but
> : > that's somewhat like saying "Hello, I'm Caucasian"
>
> The amusing thing for me is that currently I find myself saying,
> "Hi, I'm Signora Inez Rosanera and I'm not too sure if I'm black...yet."
> I'm playing an Spanish "lady" in Italy but as of yet I have not found
> documentation for black women in my "profession".
I don't know about black women in any particular profession, but the
Medicis definitely had at least one black African courtier. I've seen a
reproduction of a painting, and he's dressed in the finest Italian fashion
of the day, of course.
Bruce Mills
In article <E8Mpsw.8tE...@torfree.net>,
Kristine E. Maitland <bq...@torfree.net> wrote:
> One thing one should note in the S.C.A.: black members aren't
>necessarily playing black persona -- which really isn't a big deal
>considering all the caucasians playing Japanese...;->
Hey, watch it! I resemble that remark!
Akimoya
_Beloved_ Crusty Big Goob
Ealdormere
Jason Dozier
Martin Hungerford (jong...@netcon.net.au) wrote:
: Bryan J. Maloney wrote:
: >
: > In article <19970407193...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
: > mdmma...@aol.com (MdmMalice1) wrote:
: >
: > > is all I get, "Hi, I'm Lord/Lady X and I'm Celtic" I'm not sure, but
: > > that's somewhat like saying "Hello, I'm Caucasian" So..am I expecting too
: > > much from this type of situation, or is it, as I think, that there exists
: > > a lot of information that these "Hello, I'm a Celt" people simply are not
: > > aware of or choose to ignore?
: >
: > BINGO! You have run into the ignorant geek phenomenon, big time.
: Hi! I'm martin and I'm human.
: Leave them dumb geeks alone!
: ...hopefully they'll learn something if they are not driven away. Mind
: you, they drove me away...
: Martin o' lyos
Calling yourself simply celtic is very vague and unspecific but I hardly
think that it indicates that someone is a "dumb geek" as Martin has
stated. If something as simple as that would drive you away I think
perhaps you are a bit too sensitive.
I didn't want to decide on a personna until I had given it some thought
and done a little research so I too used the "kind of celtic thing" as a
response until I finally narrowed it down to something more specific.
Andreas maqquas Feragusu calling for all the dumb geeks to rise up against
the intolerant jackasses.
(sorry, couldn't resist)
francis8
In article <E8Mpsw.8tE...@torfree.net>, bq...@torfree.net
says...
>
>Bryan J. Maloney (bj...@cornell.edu) wrote:
>: In article <19970407193...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
>: mdmma...@aol.com (MdmMalice1) wrote:
>
>: > is all I get, "Hi, I'm Lord/Lady X and I'm Celtic" I'm not sure,
but
>: > that's somewhat like saying "Hello, I'm Caucasian"
>
> The amusing thing for me is that currently I find myself
saying,
>"Hi, I'm Signora Inez Rosanera and I'm not too sure if I'm
black...yet."
>I'm playing an Spanish "lady" in Italy but as of yet I have not found
>documentation for black women in my "profession".
> One thing one should note in the S.C.A.: black members aren't
>necessarily playing black persona -- which really isn't a big deal
>considering all the caucasians playing Japanese...;->
>
>sinceremente
>Inez Rosanera
>Ealdormere
Actually, My persona is a 15th-16th Century Spaniard with black Moorish
ancestry. (I haven't worked out the total details of my persona,
just the general idea of it) Under the American "drop of blood rule"
(if you have a drop of black blood in you, that makes you black) I'd be
playing a "black character", so here's an example of a black man (which
I am) playing a black character! :)
In Service to the Steel,
Corleon al-Karazim