Viking underdress tunic question
Sandra W. Jaqua
Does anyone know if on the ladies' underdress, the decoration could
be/was Celtic knotwork/twisty beasties? Having looked at the Viking Answer
Lady's page (blessed be her name), I could find decoration that sort of
looked like knotwork of people, but not exactly Celtic knotwork, per se.
I have the Dover Celtic iron on book, and would like to know if using
those designs would be appropriate, or not. They would make doing embroidery
easier, but if they're not period, I don't want to use them! I've also found
a wonderful pen that lets you make your own iron on transfers (yay!), so I
can make truly period looking transfers as the base for the embroidery. I'd
much rather do more work for a better look, then do something *wrong*.
Regards,
Allesaundra de Crosthwaite
Bjorn Egilson
would say it is possable. But for a deffinate answer I will dig in my library
for you.
Bjorn Egillson
EXCMairi
clothing and have found nothing to support it. If someone else has different
information, I'd love to see it!
BTW, one of my "pet" theories came out of searching for this. The drawings of
people in the Book of Kells sometimes show triangular groupings of dots on
capes, tunics, etc. I like to think that this is an interpretation of fabric
weaves such as diamond twill.
Mairi
_____________________________
Baroness Mairi ni Raghaillaigh
Mrs. Linda M. Blowney, Director of Support Services - Burn Foundation
(Philadelphia, PA)
"If you have your pearls and your dignity, what else do you need?" - Tom Brokaw
hrj...@socrates.berkeley.edu
: I have searched high and low for any evidence of celtic knotwork on early Irish
: clothing and have found nothing to support it. If someone else has different
: information, I'd love to see it!
: BTW, one of my "pet" theories came out of searching for this. The drawings of
: people in the Book of Kells sometimes show triangular groupings of dots on
: capes, tunics, etc. I like to think that this is an interpretation of fabric
: weaves such as diamond twill.
An interesting theory, although it tends to be weakened by the fact that
the three-dot pattern shows up on all manner of items and spaces in the
art, not just representations of woven fabric. My theory is that it was
simply a popular space-filling design motif. The motif isn't restricted
to early Irish art. For example, an early 13th century embroidered
dalmatic (currently located at Halberstadt cathedral) includes three-dot
motifs in the "filling" between the main embroidered motifs (stags and
saggitaries), where the design is done in gold-thread embroidery.
Tangwystyl
--
*********************************************************
Heather Rose Jones hrj...@socrates.berkeley.edu
**********************************************************
jk
>:EXCMairi <excm...@aol.com> wrote:
>:: I have searched high and low for any evidence of celtic knotwork on early Irish
>:: clothing and have found nothing to support it. If someone else has different
>:: information, I'd love to see it!
>:
>:: BTW, one of my "pet" theories came out of searching for this. The drawings of
>:: people in the Book of Kells sometimes show triangular groupings of dots on
>:: capes, tunics, etc. I like to think that this is an interpretation of fabric
>:: weaves such as diamond twill.
>:
Everything I have seen & read leads me to conclude that "celtic"
knotwork isn't, and does not really appear until after the anglo-saxon
(&etc) invasions.
gun...@my-deja.com
>Does anyone know if on the ladies' underdress, the decoration could
> be/was Celtic knotwork/twisty beasties?
Two reasons why not.
First is that you don't "waste" decoration on areas that are not
visible when fully dressed, such as an underdress that's going to me
mostly obscured by an apron. For an excellent modern example, if you
see a woman wearing a traditional sari, the blouse that goes with this
costume, if it has trim, will only have it on the visible side not
covered by the drapery of the sari. If the area in question can't be
seen when fully dressed in the full costume, then don't waste
decoration on it.
"Celtic knotwork" as we usually think of it as immortalized in the
various Celtic illuminated gospels is a type of artwork on paper, and
it's different from the surface decoration used on jewellry, or carved
stone. There's no reason to believe that fabric decoration would not
also have been different from the paper artwork. I think the trick to
using Celtic motifs is to identify what elements are universal to all
Celtic artwork from a given time and place, and which are found only on
stone, only on paper, only in metalwork, etc. The universals could
then be reasonably be expected to appear at least some of the time in
embroidery and other fabric decoration techniques, while elements
unique to a single different discipline would not.
Next, we know that Celtic and Norse art influenced one another, but
they are distinct still -- they are not interchangable. Probably the
most comprehensive explanation of the various styles of Norse art is:
Wilson, David M. and Ole Klindt-Jensen. Viking Art. 2nd ed. London:
George Allen & Unwin. 1980.
This book not only includes a discussion of the art-history of the
Vikings, but also includes 69 line drawings and 80 photographic plates
showing details of Viking design, most of it from metalwork and stone
carvings, with some bone carving and other disciplines represented as
well.
Some general observations are that Norse knotwork is not nearly as
mathematical and precise as Celtic artwork. The "knots" are almost
invariably either a ribbon-style serpent or else ornamental details
such as lappets and tails of "gripping beast" monsters.
We're lucky enough to have some examples of Viking embroidery motifs as
well, though, and that should really be the starting place in designing
embroidery for a Viking costume.
Embroidery designs that we have documented from grave finds includes: a
pattern of animal heads on a servant's gown, the marvellous Mammen
cloak, which used an interlace design of foliage or acanthus, with
human masks appearing in the spaces, plus animals and birds in the
pattern. There were also a number of finds where the embroidered
designs are purely geometrical, such as a broken lozenge design.
Undoubtedly many more embroidered decorations were present in some of
the textile fragments which have been found, but while the textile may
have survived, at times the thread or floss used to embroider the
fabric has rotted away. Some archaeologists have discovered fabrics
with many holes pierced through which strongly suggest a now-absent
embroidered design.
For a very nice introduction to the topic of Viking embroidery and
documentation for same, I strongly suggest beginning with Mistress قَra
Shartooth's webpage at
http://www.cs.vassar.edu/~capriest/vikembroid.html
قَra provides some line drawings of the patterns, and photos of some of
these same embroideries are available on my webpage at
http://www.realtime.net/~gunnora/embroid.htm
::GUNNORA::
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Before you buy.
Morgan E. Smith
On Tue, 18 Apr 2000, jk wrote:
>
> Everything I have seen & read leads me to conclude that "celtic"
> knotwork isn't, and does not really appear until after the anglo-saxon
> (&etc) invasions.
>
>
Do some more research: many, many items have been found in "Celtic" and
proto-celtic cultures with recognizable "celtic knotwork" designs adorning
them. Start by looking under "La Tene" in the library.
Morgan
DirkViking
First: I have a large amount of respect for your knowledge of Norse and
Vikingy stuff, and I have no interest in making any effort whatsoever to
publically argue with you. I'll probably reinforce some of that again later...
> For an excellent modern example, if you
>see a woman wearing a traditional sari, the blouse that goes with this
>costume, if it has trim, will only have it on the visible side not
>covered by the drapery of the sari.
No way Jose- what about my kids' UnderRoos? How about all the fancy lacey
stuff I see in the women's underwear section? Embroidered men's socks? All
pretty common in the states and in Europe, don't know about India. There's a
lot of historical examples of stuff decorated in places one cannot see (the top
of tall cathedrals, the inside of tombs, etc) People don't always make sense.
>"Celtic knotwork" as we usually think of it as immortalized in the
>various Celtic illuminated gospels is a type of artwork on paper, and
>it's different from the surface decoration used on jewellry, or carved
>stone.
Despite my aforementioned great respect, I must respectfully suggest a breif
persue of the border on the Larbro stone (plate 13 in Gwyn Jones). It's a
Lindesfarne Gospel pattern (according to George Bain's Celtic Art book- a
staple of any SCA chronicler!). Key patterns show up in every media. I bet
there's more examples, but I'm even less knowledgeable about Celt stuff than I
am about Viking stuff.
>Next, we know that Celtic and Norse art influenced one another, but
>they are distinct still -- they are not interchangable.
I totally agree, and did I mention that I have a heck of a lot of respect for
your work? I did? Ok, just thought I should mention that. Because I do.
Thanks for everything
- Dirk
*** REMOVE WRAPPER BEFORE EMAILING ***
EXCMairi
>persue of the border on the Larbro stone (plate 13 in Gwyn Jones). It's a
>Lindesfarne Gospel pattern (according to George Bain's Celtic Art book- a
>staple of any SCA chronicler!). Key patterns show up in every media.
...except for embroidery (from this time and place). There just doesn't seem to
be much tradition for using the kind of modern celtic knotwork embroidery used
in the SCA to decorate "celtic" garb.
An alternative choice for decorating a tunic or undertunic would be to use
appliqued bands of a contrasting color at the cuffs, the upper arm, around the
shoulder seam, etc.
Mairi
hrj...@socrates.berkeley.edu
:>Despite my aforementioned great respect, I must respectfully suggest a breif
:>persue of the border on the Larbro stone (plate 13 in Gwyn Jones). It's a
:>Lindesfarne Gospel pattern (according to George Bain's Celtic Art book- a
:>staple of any SCA chronicler!). Key patterns show up in every media.
: ...except for embroidery (from this time and place). There just doesn't seem to
: be much tradition for using the kind of modern celtic knotwork embroidery used
: in the SCA to decorate "celtic" garb.
While I certainly agree that it seems unlikely that Viking under-dresses
were embroidered with knotwork designs, I'd like to point out that
interlace motifs show up in a piece of 9th century Anglo-Saxon embroidery
(sometimes referred to as the "Maasik fragment" sometimes by various names
associating it with Saints Harlindis and Relindis). The embroidery
(fragment) seems most likely to have been created as altar furniture (it's
highly unlikely to have been from a garment). The general format is an
arcade of romanesque arches, with the arches themselves composed of
strapwork knots and acanthus-type vines, and the space beneath the arches
being partitioned into large lozenges or vine-encircled roundels which in
turn are filled with stylized flora and fauna. The primary structures of
the various motifs appear to be composed primarily of couched gold thread,
while the interstices are filled with colored silk (probably in a stem or
split stitch -- the photos I have are uniformly bad).
Grania ni Fhearghuis
visible when fully dressed, such as an underdress that's going to me
see a woman wearing a traditional sari, the blouse that goes with this
costume, if it has trim, will only have it on the visible side not
seen when fully dressed in the full costume, then don't waste
decoration on it.>
Gunnora, most of the contemporary illustrations I've seen (admittedly,
pretty abstract) seem to show the underdress hem visible beneath the
apron. So...in the original question, it would seem that border trim on
an underdress would not be out of the question.
And I'm sure that there were times and places where the underdress
became the top layer (can you imagine an underdress, apron, coat, and
shawl on a Viking woman in the fertile crescent? Ack! My fan! ;)
The above is something I've had to struggle with as a Viking-era woman
who just happens to live in Trimaris (and who sometimes seriously
considers turning Coptic). <g>
Oh...while I have your attention (she says, hopefully), perhaps you can
help me out on a costuming point - or, if Thora is lurking..... Being
"the laurel who doesn't sew", I'm spending vast amounts of time working
out an apron based on Thora Sharptooth's latest pattern. What I can't
tell from her drawings is whether the gussets begin at the waist or the
hips. I'm spinning the wool for the apron now, and I'd like to try and
shape the gussets on the loom, but I can't figure out the length/angle
till I know where it's supposed to begin. Any suggestions?
Grania ni Fhearghuis
(who seriously needs to employ a seamstress and who wishes she had paid
more attention in geometry class)
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