European carrots prior to 1500 CE
dkpi...@cts.com
Dear Gentles,
I have read some information in a book written by an SCA member with a
degree in medieval history pertaining to the color of carrots. She
indicated that MA carrots were white and stringy in comparison to modern
carrots. As a newbie interested in historical accuracy (my hubby, like
many others in the SCA, has a history degree) could someone point me to a
source for obtaining seeds for period carrots and other european veggies?
I know that modern scientists have bred "backwards" for breeds of animals
(przewalski's horse, et al.) has this been done by modern botanists in
regards to ancient plant species?
Also, I would appreciate any information on the dress of a Pict(ish) woman
circa 500 CE in Northern Scotland/Orkney Islands. Please cite sources.
Thank you,
Celestria
"insert spiffy quote here"
Don Humberson
Celestria,
Seed Savers is probably the best group to try - they specifically target old, open
pollenated varietals to preserve genetic diversity. I'm answering this from work, so
I don't have their address here - I will find it and post it as soon as I may.
We know some of the differences in foods, from breeding records and other sources, but
always remember that the best data we have is not comprehensive. A good redaction
still is a guess, albeit an educated one. If time and budget require us to use modern
ingredients, then our job is to make the most of them.
Lord Ragnar Ketilsson,
Endless Hills, AEthelmearc
Copernicus Skygazer
I know this may sound odd, but I was always led to believe that Queen Anne's Lace, a
wildflower that I commonly saw
in Michigan, was from Europe, and it is called a "Wild Carrot". The root is carrot like,
though long, stringy and white.
Also, it must be picked very early, lest it only be good for whittling into a toothpick.
As many of our wildflowers in the
US were introduced from Europe, this may be what you are looking for. It would take a LOT
of them to use in
cooking though. They are very pretty flowers.
georg
Copernicus Skygazer wrote:
>
> I know this may sound odd, but I was always led to believe that Queen Anne's Lace, a
> wildflower that I commonly saw
> in Michigan, was from Europe, and it is called a "Wild Carrot". The root is carrot like,
> though long, stringy and white.
> Also, it must be picked very early, lest it only be good for whittling into a toothpick.
> As many of our wildflowers in the
> US were introduced from Europe, this may be what you are looking for. It would take a LOT
> of them to use in
> cooking though. They are very pretty flowers.
The only part of Queen Anne's Lace flowers that I have eaten is the
flower itself- cleaned of insects, dipped in batter, and deep fried.
The problem with picking Queen Anne's Lace is that it bears a stricking
resemblance to a member of the hemlock family, so be very careful to
know exactly what you are picking.
-lady georg
former girl scout
non ani sunt permittendi
David Friedman
Unless I misremember, Le Menagier, c. 1394, describes carrots as "red roots."
David/Cariadoc
james koch
Copernicus Skygazer wrote:
>
> I know this may sound odd, but I was always led to believe that Queen Anne's Lace, a
> wildflower that I commonly saw
> in Michigan, was from Europe, and it is called a "Wild Carrot". The root is carrot like,
> though long, stringy and white.
> Also, it must be picked very early, lest it only be good for whittling into a toothpick.
> As many of our wildflowers in the
> US were introduced from Europe, this may be what you are looking for. It would take a LOT
> of them to use in
> cooking though. They are very pretty flowers.
>
This is just a wild variety, but otherwise a member of the same species
as the common modern grocery store carrot. To quote A Modern Herbal:
"Both the carrot and parsnip are striking examples of the effect of
cultivation on wild plants. The roots of the wild variety are small and
woody, while those of the cultivated kind are fleshy and succulent and
grow to a considerable size."
Carrots are also biennial, which means by the time they flower (in
the second year) and turn into the form known as Queen Anne's Lace, they
have survived through a winter and are thus not much use as a food for
humans. I suppose if one were to take the seeds of Queen Anne's Lace
and plant them in good soil (at the right phase of the moon) you would
obtain a good edible root by the end of the first season. Of course the
product likely wouldn't resemble the modern varieties to which we are
accustomed since the parent is likely descended from plants which went
wild decades or even centuries ago. Jim Koch (Gladius)
Mike.Andrews
In article <34BEA9...@en.com>,
james koch <alc...@en.com> writes:
>Copernicus Skygazer wrote:
>>
>> I know this may sound odd, but I was always led to believe that Queen Anne's Lace, a
>> wildflower that I commonly saw
>> in Michigan, was from Europe, and it is called a "Wild Carrot". The root is carrot like,
>> though long, stringy and white.
>> Also, it must be picked very early, lest it only be good for whittling into a toothpick.
>> As many of our wildflowers in the
>> US were introduced from Europe, this may be what you are looking for. It would take a LOT
>> of them to use in
>> cooking though. They are very pretty flowers.
>>
> You are quite right regarding Queen Anne's Lace (Daucus Carota).
>This is just a wild variety, but otherwise a member of the same species
>as the common modern grocery store carrot.
While the above is true, I seem to recall that there is
another plant which looks quite like Queen Anne's Lace
and which is quite poisonous. It is worth the trouble
of looking in a _good_ reference text to avoid eating
the wrong root.
--
Mike.A...@fd9ns01.okladot.state.ok.us
Michael Fenwick of Fotheringhay (Mike Andrews) Namron, Ansteorra
Remember the ones you've lost; love the ones you have.
Daniel W. Butler-Ehle
Mike.Andrews (UDS...@DSIBM.OKLADOT.STATE.OK.US) wrote:
:
: While the above is true, I seem to recall that there is
: another plant which looks quite like Queen Anne's Lace
: and which is quite poisonous. It is worth the trouble
: of looking in a _good_ reference text to avoid eating
: the wrong root.
Water Hemlock. They're really only similar at a distance.
But if you're not familiar with *both* plants, don't even
try it. Just licking the root of water hemlock can fill
your day with pain and suffering.
BTW, the flavor of Queen Anne's Lace, is much closer to
parsnip than to carrot. Are parsnips period?
Ulfin
iguana
While stationed on Okinawa Japan coutesy of my uncle Sam I saw carrots
in the market that were white, yellow, and purple. All I have ever seen
stateside is the recent mutation orange that people tend to belive is
the only color carrots come in. At one time there were people running a
seed bank, if still around they might be interested in japanese
carrots????
jevon
Gyelle
I can't call the references to mind, but my understanding is that orange
carrots were developed very late or just post period. The ones in use were
purple or white. As near as I can find the purple ones are totally extinct. I
have raised white carrots from seeds given me by a member of an antique seed
group. They were very mild and tasty.
Gyelle
David Friedman
In article <19980123210...@ladder02.news.aol.com>, gye...@aol.com
(Gyelle) wrote:
>I can't call the references to mind, but my understanding is that orange
>carrots were developed very late or just post period. The ones in use were
>purple or white.
Except that Le Menagier, 14th c., describes carrots as red roots.
David/Cariadoc
Thaddaeus A.. Vick
Was "carrot" a well-defined term? That is, would several people from
several countries, and possibly from different centuries, agree on what
exactly a carrot was? I have noticed a fair amount of local idiosyncrasy
with regard to naming of such things as plants and various food ingredients.
I watched a thread on the historical-brewing list where someone was trying
to figure out what "paradise seed" was. I stopped counting after seeing six
quite different things recommended as being equivalent.
Hugh the Barefoot
Barony of the South Downs, Meridies
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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| |http://www.mindspring.com/~thadvick|
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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| from history. I know people who can't even learn from what happened this |
| morning. Hegel must have been taking the long view." |
| -- Chad C. Mulligan, sociology burnout |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
david hughes
Gyelle <gye...@aol.com> wrote in article
<19980123210...@ladder02.news.aol.com>...
> I can't call the references to mind, but my understanding is that orange
> carrots were developed very late or just post period. The ones in use
were
> purple or white. As near as I can find the purple ones are totally
extinct. I
> have raised white carrots from seeds given me by a member of an antique
seed
> group. They were very mild and tasty.
>
> Gyelle
>
While the original Purple carrots may be extinct, being released 1/28/98 in
the Houston, Texas Kroger's store is Texas A&M's "BetaSweet" brand of
maroon carrots. For a large portion of the last decade, Leonard Pike has
been back-breeding carrots to bring forth this ancient trait. Local
distribution only, due to limited supplies, and no seed available for at
least several years.
Texas A&M produces maroon vegetables....some jokes are just too easy 8-).
David Gallowglass
iguana
I spent feb86 through feb90 on Okinawa Japan and the markets there had
white, yellow, and purple carrots. If you know someone stationen there
(Battle Rock, West Kingdom) (they have a web page) you might get them to
seend some seeds back to the world
jevon
Mary Morman
> Gyelle <gye...@aol.com> wrote in article
> <19980123210...@ladder02.news.aol.com>...
> I can't call the references to mind, but my understanding is that orange
> carrots were developed very late or just post period. The ones in use
> were purple or white.
>
There is a reference in Le Menagier de Paris (French, 1395) to carrots.
The husband is instructing his young wife in how to keep household, and
in telling her about doing the marketing suggests that she buy the dark
purple carrots that go for so much a bunch.
elaina
dragonsspine, outlands
T Justus
David Freidman wrote:
>> Le Menagier, 14th c., describes carrots as red roots.
and Thaddaeus A.. Vick observed:
> Was "carrot" a well-defined term? That is, would several people from
>several countries, and possibly from different centuries, agree on what
>exactly a carrot was? I have noticed a fair amount of local idiosyncrasy
>with regard to naming of such things as plants and various food ingredients.
I've begun buying art books with still lifes from the 16th-17th
centuries because I'm interested in what food looked like. I've found
a number of paintings from the mid 16th c. that include bunches of
carrots. They look like modern chanteray carrots-- long, slim, tapered
orange roots. One painting ('Market Woman with Fruit, Vegetables, and
Poultry' by Joachim Beuckelaer, 1564) has both orange carrots and a
white root that looks like a skinny parsnip. The artists of this time
seem to be pretty meticulous about botanical accuracy. (They do,
however, juxtapose items that are in season at different times of the
year.) The carrots do not seem to be presented as any sort of exotic
or unusual foodstuff, as they are jumbled with onions and cabbages and
turnips. Whether these 16th c carrots are the same as Le Menagier's
14th c 'red roots' I don't know... but I think using today's orange
supermarket carrots is defensible. I've heard the SCA myth that
medieval carrots were white, and I've always wondered where it came
from.
I found these paintings in _Still Life: Still Life Painting in the
Early Modern Period_ by Norbert Schneider, Taschen, 1994.
ISBN 3-8228-0296-4 It was on the discount table at Borders. Some of
the paintings of pastries and sweets gives one a good visualization of
conterporary phrases, like Digby refering to cookies as being 'cast
into knots', or Shakespeare refering to sleeves 'carv'd like an apple
tart'.
Bon Appetit! Tracy Justus/Clare de Crecy
Suze Hammond
me> From: Mary Morman <memo...@us.oracle.com>
me> Newsgroups: rec.org.sca
me> Subject: Re: European carrots prior to 1500 CE
me> Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 12:50:29 -0800
me> There is a reference in Le Menagier de Paris (French, 1395) to
me> carrots. The husband is instructing his young wife in how to keep
me> household, and in telling her about doing the marketing suggests that
me> she buy the dark purple carrots that go for so much a bunch.
me> elaina
me> dragonsspine, outlands
Are these carrots still available?
Moreach
Ashley & Barbara Farnsworth
Something that may be of interest. In R.H.Shumway's 1998 seed catalog
they advertise a radish called White Icicle, it is 5 to 6 ins and skin
is icy white( a white looking carrot?). Also they have a carrot that is
called Scarlet Nantes it is 6in long and is a deep orange-red (red
carrot??). Hopes this helps.
Ashley Farnsworth
book...@gator.net
On Mon, 19 Jan 1998 01:21:40 -0800, iguana <je...@mail.cjnetworks.com>
wrote:
My research indicates that white was probably the original color, the
others being genetic sports (perhaps as the root was bred for flavor
or size, these other traits popped up.) For your own edification, pull
up a Queen Anne's Lace plant up the roots. That long white taproot is
the original carot.
Seed Saver's Exchange, Decorah, Iowa probably has someone who is
keeping red, purple, and/or white carrot strains alive and well.
White Icicle radish wouldn't be mistaken for a carrot, at least not by
anyone who has eaten both. The flavors are very distinct and
different.
Brenden Towey
T Justus wrote:
>
> I've begun buying art books with still lifes from the 16th-17th
> centuries because I'm interested in what food looked like. I've found
> a number of paintings from the mid 16th c. that include bunches of
> carrots. They look like modern chanteray carrots-- long, slim, tapered
> orange roots. One painting ('Market Woman with Fruit, Vegetables, and
> Poultry' by Joachim Beuckelaer, 1564) has both orange carrots and a
> white root that looks like a skinny parsnip. The artists of this time
I heard period that period carrots were purple. Based on my knowledge of
the individual who was telling me this, I'd say that he was trying to see
how many people he could get to go around erroneously claiming that
purple carrots were period (ie., he was playing a practicle joke).
IMHO that's another way SCA myths get started :-).
> I found these paintings in _Still Life: Still Life Painting in the
> Early Modern Period_ by Norbert Schneider, Taschen, 1994.
> ISBN 3-8228-0296-4 It was on the discount table at Borders. Some of
> the paintings of pastries and sweets gives one a good visualization of
> conterporary phrases, like Digby refering to cookies as being 'cast
> into knots', or Shakespeare refering to sleeves 'carv'd like an apple
> tart'.
Citations and everything. I'm going out to Borders to look for this one
now. You're a god(ess)!
Cheers,
Brenden
david hughes
For an outside opinion, its value to be determined by yourself, check out
http://www.massgrown.org/Carrot.htm by the Massachusetts Department of
Food and Agriculture
David Gallowglass
Brenden Towey <bre...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in article
<34D7F8...@ix.netcom.com>...