Children and Nudism
Raider Man
from developing an attitude of shame or disgust about the human body.
If parents are very secretive about their bodies and go to great
lengths to prevent their children from ever seeing a buttock or breast,
children will wonder what is so unusual, and even alarming, about human
nudity."
--Dr. Lee Salk, Psychiatrist (from an article in McCall's Magazine,
June, 1976)
Raider Man Dan
El Dorado Hot Springs
Dear RM,
"Raider Man" <drago...@pcinternet.net> wrote in message
news:1113266600.4...@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
Great post.
I like this one too:
Mary S. Calderone, M.D., in "The Family Book About Sexuality," states:
" ... with very young children accustomed from the beginning to nudity in
themselves and their parents, a great deal is taken for granted, and it
doesn't seem to be much of an issue to them. What nudity does is make it
easy for children to become absolutely certain about just how men and
women are made. This knowledge is of great importance in assuring the
child of his or her own correct gender. The differences in body states
and sizes - and in body organs - can then be taken for granted and will
provide an accurate image of how they themselves, or the opposite sex,
will look when grown up. Children whose parents feel at ease in such
natural events as stepping out of the shower, toweling, and walking back
to their room to dress are fortunate."
Jenny6833A
I haven't seen the full text, but from the above I'm not sure the full
text is as positive as this excerpt makes it sound.
> " ... with very young children accustomed from the beginning to
nudity in
> themselves and their parents, ...
What's she say about children who are NOT accustomed from the
*beginning* to nudity in themselves and their parents?
What's she say about older children?
> Children whose parents feel at ease in such
> natural events as stepping out of the shower, toweling, and walking
back
> to their room to dress are fortunate."
The implication here seems to be that most parents aren't at ease.
What's her advice to them?
:-)
Jenny
(who can read between the lines)
Molly Wilson
act and children will learn what the human body looks like when becoming
an adult.....but this jerk did not mention the functions of such bodies
in a naked state....ie ...erections.....but dysfunctionals like you say
the erection should be suppressed when children are present....well is
your children happy with your healthy presentation of nakedness...or do
they consider it unhealthy......as the clothed compulsive do not agree
with you and your ilk...but do agree with Sir Peter Riden if one is so
inclined to be nude in a social situation........jonZeee
Raider Man
Puberty can be a very difficult time for adolescents; their bodies are
growing rapidly, their genitals are changing, body hair is developing.
Some kids feel clumsy. Many are embarrassed by the changes that are
taking place. They can become VERY body-conscious. At that time, a wise
parent will try to keep lines of honest communication open but still
give them privacy and time to be alone in their room or with their
friends. Most adolescents would rather be ANYWHERE except where their
parents are.
All these things happen to nudist kids, too. The one big difference for
kids who were lucky enough to grow up in a nudist environment is that
those kids have literally seen those changes take place, as their older
friends and/or siblings went through that difficult time. Because of
that experience, they are better prepared for it themselves.
Raider Man Dan
Raider Man
Surveys show that overall, adults who were reared as nudists think of
their childhoods as having been stable. They also find that nudists
tend to be very slightly better educated than their non-nudist peers.
The divorce rate is lower among nudist families, and their children
tend to make better grades than similar children in non-nudist
families. I don't think that this is BECAUSE the families are nudists;
it's more likely that the marriages are more stable AND their kids make
good grades AND the families are nudists because the family members
tend to communicate a little more openly with each other in their daily
lives.
Raider Man Dan
Raider Man
Imagine two young boys. One has visited a nudist club many times with
his family, the other may have only rarely seen a parent unclothed, and
they may have seemed embarrassed when that happened. The non-nudist boy
says to his friend, "Look what I've found!" as he shows the nudist kid
a copy of Playboy or some similar magazine, which he found somewhere.
As they look at the pictures of scantily clothed, erotically posed
women, the boy who has seen hundreds of people of all ages and body
types, will probably think, "I've seen lots of naked people before. Why
does he want to sneak looks at this?" He might also think, "This isn't
even what most people look like."
Now how did I know "jonZee" would jump in screaming "Pervert!"?
Raider Man Dan
Raider Man
We read in the papers almost daily of some teacher, youth leader,
church official or some other trusted individual who took advantage of
a child in a sexual way. With hundreds of nudist clubs in North
America, that problem almost never takes place at our nudists
facilities.
A family which is open enough to have experienced nudism, just like a
healthy non-nudist family, is also open enough to have discussed sex
abuse with their children. These children know that they can tell their
parents immediately if they ever suspect that something is wrong.
Been told by authorities that the reason nudist clubs have a very low
incidence of sex offenders is that we have the reputation of
prosecuting those individuals, while until recent years, many other
organizations have "swept those problems under a rug", more concerned
with their public image than with the safety of the people they should
have been protecting.
Historically, sex abusers have felt much safer committing their
misdeeds within organizations which have tried to cover up their
problems with molesters.
You may find it encouraging to know that many nudist clubs, have a very
good relationship with law enforcement agencies. Some of their officers
are members of our club. You can be certain that if nudist clubs were
doing anything illegal or immoral, they wouldn't join. Instead, they
would very quickly close the club down!
Another fact to ponder: Almost all sex offenders are males. At a nudist
club, it would be very easy to tell if a man were to become sexually
excited.
Raider Man Dan
Molly Wilson
survey has ever ever ever been taken of nudist children.....and if you
had years of nudist club experience you would see and know
why......family nudist come and go..and are never surveyed.....but
chosen family nudist that are liars are chosen....so your surveys are
worthless.......and who told you that nudist have good local police
relations...that is a lie....as freeway signs promoting nudist clubs
have been removed because of local pressure from local citizens.....and
how could nudist clubs that desensitze or jade the male to the opposite
sex nudity be seen any where on the planet as being healthy.....quite
the contrary...it is unhealthy.......and where is all these happy
educated nudist families and their children that were raised in
nudism.....they are not in rec nude or other discussion groups....they
are not in nudist camps ....so all your lies are immature and
stupid....not even a good try....and how about all the child sex that is
not reported in nudist camps.....you really do not know what you are
talking about.....but isolated perverts like you and dario are a dime a
dozen.....and never seem to get a life going...and never bond with
people because of your flaky character........jonZeee
El Dorado Hot Springs
Dear Jenny,
"Jenny6833A" <Jenny...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1113273491.5...@l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
Oh.
> > " ... with very young children accustomed from the beginning to
> nudity in
> > themselves and their parents, ...
>
> What's she say about children who are NOT accustomed from the
> *beginning* to nudity in themselves and their parents?
Don't know.
> What's she say about older children?
Don't know.
> > Children whose parents feel at ease in such
> > natural events as stepping out of the shower, toweling, and walking
> back
> > to their room to dress are fortunate."
>
> The implication here seems to be that most parents aren't at ease.
> What's her advice to them?
Bill
> Jenny
> (who can read between the lines)
That's a great gift. I don't know any of the rest of what she said; the CCBN
printed that in one of their bulletins some years back, so I like to use it
from time to time.
Bill
Who not only can't read between the lines but also can't hear what's not
said.
El Dorado Hot Springs
WRITE ON! RM.
"Raider Man" <drago...@pcinternet.net> wrote in message
news:1113276848.6...@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Raider Man
in your postings, but jump back and forth never finishing a thought
before leaping tangentially to another line of thought.
>.....you mention the survey....what survey....no credible
>survey has ever ever ever been taken of nudist children.....and if you
>had years of nudist club experience you would see and know
>why......family nudist come and go..and are never surveyed.....but
>chosen family nudist that are liars are chosen....
The Survey is "Credible" to those who believe and trust in the findings
of the Survey, but if somebody like you are against the findings than
you will of course decide that the Survey is not "Credible".
>....as freeway signs promoting nudist clubs
>been removed because of local pressure from local citizens.....
If I am understanding your posting you mention "Signage" for Nudist
Resorts?
I know of a minimum of 15 Nudist Resorts in my area which have
prominent, Well-Maintained Freeway signs and these Resorts have very
excellent Relations with the local Law Enforcement and Communities in
their area.
>...it is unhealthy.......and where is all these happy
>educated nudist families and their children that were raised in
>nudism.....they are not in rec nude or other discussion groups....they
>are not in nudist camps ....so all your lies are immature and
>stupid....not even a good try....and how about all the child sex that
is
>not reported in nudist camps.....
I will first address "Where the Happy Educated" ones are.
Obviously they are not at nay resort that you go to, if you have ever
gone to one.
I have many friends and acquaintances in the Nudist Community who have
children or grew up as Nudists who appear very Happy and Well Educated,
many with Advanced Degrees and High Professional standing, including a
few Ministers.
Than your Allegation of "all the child sex that is
not reported in nudist camps".
If it is not reported than how do you know that there is "Child Sex"?
Is this some "Sixth Sense" that you have, which tells you that these
things are happening?
Maybe, just possibly there are incidents like this happening, but I
have never seen nor heard of them occurring at any Venue that I have
gone to and I have visited quite a few in my travels.
As far as your immature attempts at insulting people by calling them
"Perverts" and making references to "Flaky character".
With your fragmentative posting style and insulting manner I think I
come off looking pretty Damn good.
Raider Man Dan
P.S. I have lots of friends, so I'm not hurt that you don't like me.
El Dorado Hot Springs
Dear RM,
"Raider Man" <drago...@pcinternet.net> wrote in message
news:1113281824.4...@l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
> It is very interesting that you can't seem to write a complete sentence
> in your postings, but jump back and forth never finishing a thought
> before leaping tangentially to another line of thought.
It's a symptom of worse problems.
A person trying to convince us all (who didn't already know) how little they
know:
> >.....you mention the survey....what survey....no credible
> >survey has ever ever ever been taken of nudist children.
This shows you don't know what you're talking about. Several surveys have
been done and books have been written. One of the best and most well know is
"Growing Up Without Shame" by Dennis Craig Smith whose survey lasted more
than ten years of the lives of nudist children and is scientifically
accurate.
> I know of a minimum of 15 Nudist Resorts in my area which have
> prominent, Well-Maintained Freeway signs and these Resorts have very
> excellent Relations with the local Law Enforcement and Communities in
> their area.
Add us to that list; we have half a dozen signs in town and all the
businesses have our brochures right at the cash registers.
Raider Man Dan:
> With your fragmentative posting style and insulting manner I think I
> come off looking pretty Damn good.
You surely did. ANYthing would look better than that fool.
Bill
Molly Wilson
and company that wrote that growing up thing ....years and years
ago.....what a laugh......he he....you guys are total tribal
nuts........i gotta tell ya i dont go to dalhmer country very often but
i would like to know about fifteen nudist camps that have freeway signs
and how many are listed by the kiwanis club.....jonZeee
Molly Wilson
erection....i think the answer is no...when they are clothed....but
society has never approved of boys or adult males being unclothed with
erections...right...OTOH....society does not approve of social nudity
for the sake of social nudity where children are
involved.....why.................................................................................because
you...i and all other sane humans on the face of the earth know that sex
will be on the agenda of some if not most and therefore it is now a no
no and will for the forseeable future be a no no......and then on the
other far reaching hand.....a family group could take a stand and
say.....we advocate open sexuality for our children includes sex with
stranger adults as well as children....which includes social
nudity.......NOW NOW NOW.....a hush comes upon the land......FINALLY
FINALLY ...at last.. a reason for social nudity has come to
light.....right....and then all the stupid....ignorant....cult nudism
reasons for children being exposed to nudity makes sense.....ie....a
child in the 2nd grade can click a few times on the internet and see all
the naked bodies of all ages doing all things including sex....in about
ten or fifteen minutes on the internet...so why is there a need for sex
education or social nudity.....reality is a bitch it exposes all the
bull..shitters.....jonZeee
Vagina Canal
> willy.....so stepping out of the shower naked is a normal and natural
> act and children will learn what the human body looks like when becoming
> an adult.....but this jerk did not mention the functions of such bodies
> in a naked state....ie ...erections.....but dysfunctionals like you say
> the erection should be suppressed when children are present....
Should young males who have frequent reflex erections be shunned?
Mark
"Molly Wilson" <mollye...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:27509-425...@storefull-3176.bay.webtv.net...
> .....reality is a bitch it exposes all the bull..shitters.....ESPECIALLY
> jonZeee
BBp
BBp
BBp
http://www.serendipity-park.com/other.htm
BBp
El Dorado Hot Springs
Dear Richard,
"Richard C." <post...@spamcop.net> wrote in message
news:425bf391$0$5851$9a6e...@news.newshosting.com...
> Our club is one of the oldest members of the Issaquah Chamber of Commerce.
> We have good relations with the community and local law enforcement.
> Our brochures are in local visitor's bureaus.
> We attend many local street fairs and other events.
Oh, I forgot -- we belong to two local chambers of commerce and have
brochures in at least four other chambers or visitors centers.
Bill
Molly Wilson
nudist club or....what.....the devil is in the details right.....dont be
shy ...show us the whole nine yards......how the chamber of commerce has
it listed and what it says......jonZeee
Jenny6833A
> > I know of a minimum of 15 Nudist Resorts in my area which have
> > prominent, Well-Maintained Freeway signs and these Resorts have
very
> > excellent Relations with the local Law Enforcement and Communities
in
> > their area.
>
> Add us to that list; we have half a dozen signs in town and all the
> businesses have our brochures right at the cash registers.
But, as of last week, no signs on the freeway. Most of the other
businesses have signs on I-10, but yours does not.
I've always been curious about that. How come?
:-)
Jenny
Jenny6833A
> > Jenny
> > (who can read between the lines)
>
> That's a great gift. I don't know any of the rest of what she said;
the CCBN
> printed that in one of their bulletins some years back, so I like to
use it
> from time to time.
>
> Bill
> Who not only can't read between the lines but also can't hear what's
not
> said.
Bill, when it comes to partial quotes, finding potential hanky-panky is
easy.
I said,
> > I haven't seen the full text, but from the above I'm not sure the
full
> > text is as positive as this excerpt makes it sound.
> > > " ... with very young children accustomed from the beginning to
> > nudity in
> > > themselves and their parents, ...
> >
> > What's she say about children who are NOT accustomed from the
> > *beginning* to nudity in themselves and their parents?
> > What's she say about older children?
There are words in the partial quote that indicate
comparisons/distinctions have been omitted by the partial quoter.
Those words are "very young" and "from the beginning."
If the author was not making the distinctions I asked about, she (Ms
Calderone) would have left the words out. She would simply have
written,
" ... with children accustomed to nudity in themselves and their
parents, ..."
There's another reason to be suspicious. It's a short quote. If a
longer quote would have been as positive as the short one, I'd expect
the partial quoter to have quoted more.
I bring all this up for a simple reason. By not having read the longer
text, you may be setting yourself up for a devastating response. You
may use that partial quote some day in the presence of an anti-nudist
who *has* read the entire passage -- and who then quotes it in full to
show 1) that Ms Calderone has quite different views about nudity than
the partial quote seems to indicate, and 2) that you tried to bamboozle
the audience by cheating. Then, no matter what other points you may
have made, you (and nudism) lose the debate.
I'd be very interested to learn what Mary Calderone's full views are.
:-)
Jenny
El Dorado Hot Springs
Dear Jenny,
"Jenny6833A" <Jenny...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1113327504.0...@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
> El Dorado Hot Springs wrote:
No, I didn't write that.
> > > I know of a minimum of 15 Nudist Resorts in my area which have
> > > prominent, Well-Maintained Freeway signs and these Resorts have
> very
> > > excellent Relations with the local Law Enforcement and Communities
> in
> > > their area.
I did write this:
> > Add us to that list; we have half a dozen signs in town and all the
> > businesses have our brochures right at the cash registers.
Jenny wrote this:
> But, as of last week, no signs on the freeway. Most of the other
> businesses have signs on I-10, but yours does not.
> I've always been curious about that. How come?
That's something we looked into right away, even before we opened and
learned that in this state, the municipal signs on the freeway can be only
for food, fuel, camping and lodging. For lodging, a minimum of 8 rooms are
required while we have 4 and for camping, a minimum of 20 spaces hookup
spaces are required and we don't have any, just a few with electric, though
we have a dump station and water fill at no extra charge to paying guests.
Further, last time we checked, one sign without even a name on it, just the
category (food, fuel, camping, lodging) costs $250 a month; to have one with
a specific name, such as Tonopah Joe's does, is at least double that. Now we
could buy a billboard from several private companies closer to town, but at
$500 per month with a minimum of two year commitment, we opted not to do
that.
Bill
El Dorado Hot Springs
Dear Jenny,
"Jenny6833A" <Jenny...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1113329630.5...@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
> I'd be very interested to learn what Mary Calderone's full views are.
So would I. Now that you mention it, her wording does seem to be creating
some sort of exception to the partial quote.
Bill
Rev. JW
> This shows you don't know what you're talking about. Several surveys have
> been done and books have been written. One of the best and most well know is
> "Growing Up Without Shame" by Dennis Craig Smith whose survey lasted more
> than ten years of the lives of nudist children and is scientifically
> accurate.
Just in case there is a need of a few studies:
Some of the Studies that I have found.
Ableman, Paul, "The Anatomy of Nakedness" Elysium Growth Press, Los
Angeles CA.
Casler, Lawrence, Ph. D., [Professor, Department of Psychology, State
University College of Arts & Science, Geneseo, NY], "Nudist Camps,"
MEDICAL ASPECTS OF HUMAN SEXUALITY, May 1971, pp. 92 - 98.
Casler, Lawrence, Ph. D., [Professor, Department of Psychology, State
University College of Arts & Science, Geneseo, NY], "Some
Sociopsychological observations in a Nudist Camp: A preliminary Study,"
THE JOURNAL OF SOCIAL PSYCHOLOGY, 1964, 64, pp. 307 - 323.
Gardener, Richard A., "Exposing Children to Parental Nudity", Medical
aspects of Human Sexuality, June 1975
Ketterman, Grace, Ph. D., "Real solutions for Abuse Proofing Your Child"
Vine Books, Ann Arbor, MI.
Foster, Jeremy J., [Bolton Institute of Technology, England], "Notes on
Perceived Personality of a Nude," PERCEPTUAL AND MOTOR SKILLS, 1970, 31,
pp. 941-942.
Freed, Herbert, M. D., [Clinical Professor of Psychiatry and Medical
Director of Psychotherapy at Temple University, Philadelphia, PA},
"Nudity & Nakedness," SEXUAL BEHAVIOR, January 1973, pp. 3 - 7.
Goldman, R. J. & Goldman, J. G., [La Trobe University, Bundoora,
Victoria, Australia] (1981) Children's perceptions of clothes and
nakedness: A cross-national study, GENETIC PSYCHOLOGY MONOGRAPHS, 104,
163-185.
Lewis, Robert J. and Louis H. Janda. "The Relationship Between Adult
Sexual Adjustment and Childhood Experiences Regarding Exposure to
Nudity, Sleeping in the Parental Bed, and Parental Attitudes Toward
Sexuality." Archives of Sexual Behavior 17.4 (1988): 349-362.
Okami, Paul. "Childhood Exposure to Parental Nudity, Parent-Child
Co-sleeping, and 'Primal Scenes': A Review of Clinical Opinion and
Empirical Evidence." Journal of Sex Research 32.1 (1995): 51-64.
Okami, Paul, Richard Olmstead, Paul R. Abramson, and Laura Pendleton.
"Early Childhood Exposure to Parental Nudity and Scenes of Parental
Sexuality ('Primal Scenes'): An 18-Year Longitudinal Study of Outcome."
Archives of Sexual Behavior 27.4 (1998): 361-384.
Oleinick, M. S., A. K. Bahn, L. Eisenberg, and A. M. Lilienfeld. "Early
Socialization Experiences and Intrafamilial Environment: A Study of
Psychiatric Outpatient and Control Group Children." Archives of General
Psychiatry 15.4 (1966): 344-353.
Smith, Dennis Craig and William Sparks. The Naked Child: Growing Up
Without Shame. Los Angeles: Elysium Growth, 1986.
Story, Marilyn, Ph.D., "A Comparison of Social Nudists and Non-nudists
on Experience with Various Sexual Outlets", JOURNAL OF SEX RESEARCH,
(Vol.23, No.2, May 1987), pp.197-211.
Story, Marilyn, Ph.D., "Comparisons of Body Self-concept between Social
Nudists and Nonnudists": JOURNAL OF PSYCHOLOGY, Volume 118, First Half,
September 1984, pp. 101-111.
Story, Marilyn, Ph.D., "Factors Associated with more positive Body
Self-Concepts in Preschool Children," JOURNAL OF SOCIAL PSYCHOLOGY,
Volume 108, 1979, pp. 49-56.
Weinberg, Martin S., Ph.D., [Senior Sociologist, Institute for Sex
Research, Indiana University, Bloomington, IN], "Nudists," SEXUAL
BEHAVIOR, August 1971, pp. 51 - 54.
--
73 de N7PSV aka Rev. JW <n><
http://members.hscis.net/~jolson/health.html
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/the_original_inner_circle
Molly Wilson
subjects.....none represent natural behavior of children......and with a
healthy mixture of pedophiles and clinical wage earners....it is not
worth mentioning as having credibility...the nudist hall of shame and
hundreds of girls from nudism that end up on drugs and at the tyranny of
a pimp ....is not mentioned......and you are the rev of paganism
huh.....another phony that justifies all sin being ok....because Jesus
did not clearly state that it was.....self made ....huh....jonZeee
Molly Wilson
dollars a year on farm land...where are they....there is none now i am
aware of ....and that would really bring them in....hey all you people
get naked at the next exit and expose your crotch....open 24 hours a
day....bring the kids ...dogs and all ....just keep the dog on
leash.....come and enjoy.....do it cummings....or why not.....jonZeee
sarasm...@hotmail.com
>>>Great post.
I like this one too:
Mary S. Calderone, M.D., in "The Family Book About Sexuality," states:
" ... with very young children accustomed from the beginning to nudity
in
themselves and their parents, a great deal is taken for granted, and
it
doesn't seem to be much of an issue to them. What nudity does is make
it
easy for children to become absolutely certain about just how men and
women are made. This knowledge is of great importance in assuring the
child of his or her own correct gender. The differences in body
states
and sizes - and in body organs - can then be taken for granted and
will
provide an accurate image of how they themselves, or the opposite sex,
will look when grown up. Children whose parents feel at ease in such
natural events as stepping out of the shower, toweling, and walking
back
to their room to dress are fortunate."
>>>>
Then why doesn't your daughter feel fortunate, Bill. She won't even
talk to you for raising her the way you did. Shame on you for putting
her through what you did.
You need to keep your mouth shut when it comes to children. You
couldn't even raise your own daughter correctly. Though she turned out
to be one smart lady, saying good riddance to the likes of you.
Molly Wilson
Commerce. We have good
have a chamber of commerce......you are pathological....seek
help......if you find a url that says it does ....lets have it.....and i
would bet that ol willy is lying too......nothing but low life liars in
nudism......every thing all you folks say is bull shit lies.....jonZeee
Molly Wilson
of the Survey, but if somebody like you are against the findings than
you will of course decide that the Survey is not "Credible"
you is the reason i treat you like a little boy....and everybody loves
little boys.....but hey ....who taught you to trust and believe in
findings of a survey.....credible surveys are surveys that are perfected
by totally unbiased professionals......there can be no link to the
surveyed.....otherwise it is biased.....but common sense says that a
secretive organization can only have testimonies and of course police
records taken by spies to show the opposite of your phony surveys....you
tribal kind would do yourself a favor by not even mentioning a
survey...as it means nothing and makes you guys look like fools.....and
all the garbage books that you guys put forth does not
mention....nudisms hall of shame ...by nikki craft.....and so where does
the molested nudist child that is a matter of police records...fit into
your educated happy and better off than textiles
child.....survey.....just ignore that..huh....take a nap with
Floyd...cummings....and VC......and chill the lies....jonZeee
Mark
> The Survey is "Credible" to those who believe and trust in the findings
> of the Survey, but if somebody like you are against the findings than
> you will of course decide that the Survey is not "Credible"
> ====================================== raider.....the above stated by
> you is the reason i treat you like a little boy....and everybody loves
> little boys.....
Well cross-dresser.........we know that YOU love little boys, little girls
(and probably sheep).....Johnz (or Molly) are you related to Michael
Jackson????
El Dorado Hot Springs
> Johnz (or Molly) are you related to Michael
> Jackson????
Don't insult Michael!
Raider Man
Molly Wilson wrote:
> The Survey is "Credible" to those who believe and trust in the
findings
> of the Survey, but if somebody like you are against the findings than
> you will of course decide that the Survey is not "Credible"
> ====================================== raider.....the above stated by
> you is the reason i treat you like a little boy..
Actually "jonZee" the reason that you prefer to think of me as a
"little boy" is because than you can feel "superior" by age at least (I
assume) and thereby more experienced, I suppose that this belief is
preferred to thinking that I may possibly be a Grandfather with a
Family of 5 grown children with Nudist Families of their own.
>..and everybody loves
> little boys.....but hey ....who taught you to trust and believe in
> findings of a survey.....credible surveys are surveys that are
perfected
> by totally unbiased professionals......there can be no link to the
> surveyed.....otherwise it is biased...
The Surveys have been done and the results Documented, as I stated
before you have already decided that the Surveys are not credible so I
don't expect you to believe the findings.
As to my trusting and believing in the results of these Surveys, my
many years of experience with traveling to many Countries has shown me
the same facts that these Surveys Corroborate what I already knew.
>..but common sense says that a
> secretive organization can only have testimonies and of course police
> records taken by spies to show the opposite of your phony
surveys....you
> tribal kind would do yourself a favor by not even mentioning a
> survey...as it means nothing and makes you guys look like
fools.....and
> all the garbage books that you guys put forth does not
> mention....nudisms hall of shame ...by nikki craft.....and so where
does
> the molested nudist child that is a matter of police records...fit
into
> your educated happy and better off than textiles
> child...
"Nikki Craft" is just another "Anti-Nudist" who is gathering
information to a Site in an effort to prove that all Nudists are
"Perverts" and that we are corrupting the Children, I believe they
thought the same of Socrates.
I have no doubt that somewhere there are actually places where the
Crimes "She" sites do occur, but I believe you will find that they are
the exception rather than the Rule.
You could always search "Naked City Los Angeles" and "Dick Droste", I
recall he ran a "Sex Club" and called it a "Nudist Club", I believe
that we got him shut down for Child Porn Violations.
I think that you will find that the majority of "Police Records"
mentioned are only Hearsay and have no validity in reality.
>..survey.....just ignore that..huh....take a nap with
> Floyd...cummings....and VC......and chill the lies....jonZeee
Also you are still very fragmented in your posting style, do you have
similar problems in your spoken communications with finishing a
thought???
Raider Man Dan
Raider Man
El Dorado Hot Springs wrote:
http://www.wic.org/bio/calderon.htm
Mary S. Calderone, M.D., was internationally recognized as a pioneer in
the field of human sexuality. She was former President of the Sex
Information and Education Council of the United States, which she
co-founded in 1954, and for which she was Executive Director and
President until 1982. From 1953-1964, she was the Medical Director for
Planned Parenthood Federation of America.
She was an Adjunct Professor, Program in Human Sexuality, in the New
York University Department of Health Education. Her writings included:
Questions and Answers About Sex and Love; Sexuality and Human Values;
Manual of Family Planning and Contraceptive Practices; The Family Book
About Sexuality, and Talking With Your Child About Sex.
She was noted in major publications such as 50 Most Influential Women
in America and America's 75 Most Important Women. She was also listed
in the World Almanac among the 200 Most Influential People in the
World. Awards honoring her vast contributions include such
acknowledgments as Lifetime Achievement Award from the Schlesinger
Library, Radcliffe/Harvard; Browning Award for Prevention of Diseases,
American Public Health Association: Margaret Sanger Award, Planned
Parenthood Federation of America; Elizabeth Blackwell Award for
Distinguished Services to Humanity and many others.
She had received twelve honorary doctorates from such notable
institutions as Columbia, Brandeis, Adelphi, Dickinson, Bucknell and
Hofstra Universities.
Dr. Calderone was the mother of three daughters, a grandmother of three
and a great-grandmother of three. She passed away in October 1998.
Here's a brief Bio on Mary.
Raider Man Dan
Molly Wilson
a nudist camp....the header page only listed FS.....jz
Molly Wilson
shame and that some of those cases may be real......so which ones are
not real....huh.....jonZeee
El Dorado Hot Springs
Dear RM,
Thanks much!
Bill
"Raider Man" <drago...@pcinternet.net> wrote in message
news:1113353867.4...@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
Raider Man
Ok, "jonZee" What exactly is it that is "all junk"?
To what are you referring?
I am having a difficult time understanding your fragmentary postings.
I do not give much credence to the "Nudism Hall of Shame" because it is
made by a person who is a known "Anti-Nudist" and therefore suspect of
being highly biased.
I admitted that some of the instances of "Sexual Incidents" may have
happened because I can't totally disprove them as you can't totally
prove ALL of them either.
Please try to post in a more coherent fashion.
Raider Man Dan
Raider Man
Richard C. wrote:
> X-No-archive: yes> ============================================
> Listen, you syphilitic little worm.
> You are so full of fetid s**t.
> http://www.issaquahchamber.com/
>
> You are now proven once again to be lying scum!
> ==========================================
Now, Now Richard, We both realize that "jonZee"s main purpose here is
to cause aggravation.
But we shouldn't give She/He/It the satisfaction by dropping to "Its"
level with insults.
We all know that "jonZee" doesn't care if we post 200 irrefutable
Facts, "jonZee" will insist that they are all lies because "They"
don't want to believe "They" could be wrong.
Raider Man Dan
El Dorado Hot Springs
Dear RM,
"Raider Man" <drago...@pcinternet.net> wrote in message
news:1113367607....@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
> Please try to post in a more coherent fashion.
S/he/it is already doing the best s/he/it can.
Raider Man
El Dorado Hot Springs wrote:
I know, unfortunate isn't it?
Raider Man Dan
Molly Wilson
abuse of girls..that certainly was not beneficial to their well being
..and no one was documenting these cases.... so how could any any any
of these so called cases of happiness and prosperous lives be
known.....positive enuendos are not proof of anything....so this renders
the books non credible.....and how could a non nudist ..anti
nudist...police ...or anyone else be untruthful about actual documented
cases of molestation and abuse.....yes the police is biases i suppose
but police records are facts and cannot be disputed.....no one in rec
nude has proven any of hall of shame cases was not true...jonZeee
Mark
.......it is hard to believe that a grown man or woman---(whichever he/she
is at the moment), can write so incoherently and express themself so poorly
as to be an embarrasment to themselves, their peers and their family.
Mark
> cummings.....you have to type in the name of the camp to find that it is
> a nudist camp....the header page only listed FS.....jz
And that was ALL that he claimed.....specifically he said:
"===============================
Our club is one of the oldest members of the Issaquah Chamber of Commerce.
We have good relations with the community and local law enforcement.
Our brochures are in local visitor's bureaus.
We attend many local street fairs and other events.
=========================="
Just more of your smoke fog......your reading skills are almost as poor as
your writing skills and your deliberate clouding of issues with deception,
deflection and outright lies is astounding.
Ya know, it actually amazes me that Peter Riden would defend anything you
say--I'd be embarrasssed if you were to endorse MY business----in fact
little molly, your public "BS condemnation" of FS and Richard individually,
is the BEST endorsement they could receive!!!
Molly Wilson
leaves you guys with no one to support you.....so you sure do not have
any thing to brag about....jonZeee
Peter Riden
It actually amazes me that someone who was at Deja Vue, a perfect mini
approach to what THE GRAND BARN is about, has vehemently been talking
against THE GRAND BARN and that same person would have the audacity to
question John (Simmons) integrity. When it relates to something I
believe in, you can be sure that I'll gladly defend John for his
non-vaccilating stance as compared to you who has been at Dan Rondello
for years, calling him Slimey, and now because he sucks up to you ,
you will shift your attacking mode towards him in one approach of full
tolerance. Don't even question my respect for one who has been the
best devil's advocates to many of the inanities I've seen displayed
here by The Little Tribe few malcontents.
If my silence to John's sometimes striking comments are seen as full
approval I'll also conclude that your silence on ON~Anon's inanities
were also "supportive" endorsements. Then again, not complimentary of
you and anyone of The Little Tribe.
And don't tell me that The little Tribe is in my imagination only.
Terry "woman in red" Wood has confirmed her "proud" membership in
such. and her adulation for TLT's "Cheef"
You're not going to tell us all that Terry is also hallucinating..;-)
Anyhow I also observe that you all fancy a lot when it comes to
Children topics. For the fully functional adult-minded.. come and look
us up..;-)
In Friendship & Universality
Peter Riden
for THE WORLDWIDE AFFILIATE NETWORK {T.W.A.N.}
http://www.the-worldwide-affiliate-network.com
T.W.A.N.'s very own newsgroup: alt.the-worldwide-affiliate-network
THE GRAND BARN {TGB}:http://www.the-grand-barn.com
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Affiliate-Online
Mark
"Peter Riden" <Affi...@the-grand-barn.com> wrote in message
news:1113396265.5546a71f827159825e48bd7e6f0fc644@teranews...
>>Ya know, it actually amazes me that Peter Riden would defend anything you
>>say--I'd be embarrasssed if you were to endorse MY business----in fact
>>little molly, your public "BS condemnation" of FS and Richard
>>individually,
>>is the BEST endorsement they could receive!!!
> It actually amazes me that someone who was at Deja Vue, a perfect mini
> approach to what THE GRAND BARN is about, has vehemently been talking
> against THE GRAND BARN and that same person would have the audacity to
> question John (Simmons) integrity.
First of all Pete, we've had this discussion MANY times.....Deja Vu, yes I
stayed there--because it was clothing optional, PERIOD. End of Story. I will
opt for a clothing optional or nude venue in ANY of my travels where that
choice is available.
Secondly Pete, I've NOT talked down the grand barn in a long, long time. You
want to run an adult place where open sex is permissible, that is your
business--there is a market for it and more power to you and those who go to
your place--you are honest in what it is JUST AS OTHERS are HONEST with what
family nudist resorts present. Simmons is NOT one of those who is honest
with that--he sees things that none of us EVER have seen....and he makes it
sound like he's seen this crap EVERY damned time he's been to a family
nudist venue. He is a goddamned liar, I know it and you know it!
> When it relates to something I
> believe in, you can be sure that I'll gladly defend John for his
> non-vaccilating stance as compared to you who has been at Dan Rondello
> for years, calling him Slimey, and now because he sucks up to you ,
> you will shift your attacking mode towards him in one approach of full
> tolerance.
Dan took down his exploitive site, apologized for it, and has tried to write
about nudist experiences....at least he's making an effort at honesty which
is something simmons has NEVER done.
> Don't even question my respect for one who has been the
> best devil's advocates to many of the inanities I've seen displayed
> here by The Little Tribe few malcontents.
Inane is a perception Pete......and simmons is perceived as inane by 90% of
the people that post here (not counting the ones who've killfiled him).
> If my silence to John's sometimes striking comments are seen as full
> approval I'll also conclude that your silence on ON~Anon's inanities
> were also "supportive" endorsements. Then again, not complimentary of
> you and anyone of The Little Tribe.
And we've discussed THIS BEFORE as well pete....I was NOT HERE when this
'ON~Anon' posted here, and I really haven't cared enough to search out shit
that happened before I got here......John's "striking comments" are made up
stories, nothing more and nothing less--and you know that as well.
> And don't tell me that The little Tribe is in my imagination only.
> Terry "woman in red" Wood has confirmed her "proud" membership in
> such. and her adulation for TLT's "Cheef"
I have great respect for Cheef myself.....he's contributed MUCH to family
nudism, as has Dennis Kirkpatrick. You'd do well to develop the respect in
"your community" that they have in the nudist community.
> You're not going to tell us all that Terry is also hallucinating..;-)
simmons is the only hallicinator here pete......
> Anyhow I also observe that you all fancy a lot when it comes to
> Children topics. For the fully functional adult-minded.. come and look
> us up..;-)
ROFLMAO.........your buddy simmons is the perpetuator of most "Children
topics" as you call it....he and the couple of other trolls and pretenders
that come in here share 95% of the responsibility for children's topics,
erections, smoothies, etc..
"Fully functional adult-minded" people come with different interests,
different beliefs and different approaches. Too bad people like mr. simmons
can't draw that distinction.
Finally pete, do me and others a big favor, PLEASE:
Learn to use the space bar a time or two before you start a reply to
posts....it is so much easier to read your posts when one doesn't have to
search for its beginning as it is run on with the previous post....AND,
learn to write in paragraphs and/or to use that magic space bar between
paragraphs--PLEASE. (Your posts seem to have a great resemblance to johnz's
posts, and while they are somewhat more coherent they aren't any more
cohesive.) Every great once in awhile you, unlike your buddy simmons, have
something worthwhile to say. It would be nice to find it without having to
experience eye strain or having to refer pack to previous posts to see where
THEY end and your "dialogue" begins. Thank you pete.
In Friendship and Honesty
Mark
Mark
> allnude.....you being a child porn peddler and cummings a proven liar
> leaves you guys with no one to support you.....so you sure do not have
> any thing to brag about....jonZeee
>
I sell nothing, absolutely nothing, on my website or anywhere
else.........and Richard has done nothing but tell the truth....the only
LIES emanating from this thread are YOURS.
Jenny6833A
> El Dorado Hot Springs wrote:
> >
> > > I'd be very interested to learn what Mary Calderone's full views
> are.
> >
> > So would I. Now that you mention it, her wording does seem to be
> creating
> > some sort of exception to the partial quote.
> >
> > Bill
>
> http://www.wic.org/bio/calderon.htm
>
> Raider Man Dan
RMD, the bio doesn't answer the question. If you want to be helpful,
identify the book or article that the partial quote came from, then
fill out the quote.
:-)
Jenny
E R
href="http://search.bay.webtv.net/Search.aspx?FORM=WEBTV&cfg=MSTVXML&v=1&c=US&q=%22The+Family+Book+About+Sexuality%22">search</a>
about Mary S. Calderone's book and noted that she had been honored by a
humanist association which in turn was affiliated with the American
Humanist Association. Isn't that an organization which promotes atheism?
I recall reading Francis A. Schaeffer write that atheism would give
results diametrically opposite to those from considering the "personal,
infinite God" the source of reality in law and other fields. See his
"line of despair" comments in "A Christian Manifesto", for example.
I am not saying that she was not a fell scholar, but the association
with atheism and Planned Parenthood makes the source of her opinion
suspect in my opinion.
Do you know of any Bible-believing, or at least theistic, scholars who
share her view?
NICB
===============================
Re: Children and Nudism
Group: rec.nude Date: Tue, Apr 12, 2005, 2:12am (CDT+5) From:
HotSp...@El-Dorado.com (El Dorado Hot Springs)
Dear RM,
"Raider Man" <drago...@pcinternet.net> wrote in message
news:1113266600.4...@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
"Being natural and matter-of-fact about nudity prevents your children
from developing an attitude of shame or disgust about the human body. If
parents are very secretive about their bodies and go to great lengths to
prevent their children from ever seeing a buttock or breast, children
will wonder what is so unusual, and even alarming, about human nudity."
--Dr. Lee Salk, Psychiatrist (from an article in McCall's Magazine,
June, 1976)
E R
The reference to "a clergyman" is not specific enough, in my opinion.
Where the clergyman is coming from would be plainer if his
denominational affiliation were mentioned, for example, a U-U clergyman
might be expected oft to disagree with a CLC clergyman.
NICB
=========================
Re: Children and Nudism
Group: rec.nude Date: Tue, Apr 12, 2005, 9:14am (CDT-2) From:
loo...@msn.com (BBp)
Per chance have ya been over at Serendipity Park's site? :)
http://www.serendipity-park.com/other.htm
BBp
Raider Man wrote:
"Being natural and matter-of-fact about nudity prevents your children
from developing an attitude of shame or disgust about the human body. If
parents are very secretive about their bodies and go to great lengths to
prevent their children from ever seeing a buttock or breast, children
will wonder what is so unusual, and even alarming, about human nudity."
--Dr. Lee Salk, Psychiatrist (from an article in McCall's Magazine,
June, 1976)
Raider Man Dan
E R
from the search I posted
might be useful in finding her book at a local library.
NICB
============================
Re: Children and Nudism
Group: rec.nude Date: Tue, Apr 12, 2005, 7:18pm (CDT+5) From:
HotSp...@El-Dorado.com (El Dorado Hot Springs)
Dear Jenny,
"Jenny6833A" <Jenny...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1113329630.5...@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
E R
Dan Abel
<ma...@nospam.com> wrote:
> Secondly Pete, I've NOT talked down the grand barn in a long, long time. You
> want to run an adult place where open sex is permissible, that is your
> business--there is a market for it and more power to you and those who go to
> your place--you are honest in what it is JUST AS OTHERS are HONEST with what
> family nudist resorts present.
Peter Riden's acceptance on this group has gone way up since he stopped
trying to claim that TGB was a family nudist place. I haven't seen
*anybody* talk down TGB since that happened.
--
Dan Abel
Sonoma State University
AIS
da...@sonic.net
Terry...@nospampleasehotmail.com
Dan Abel <da...@sonic.net> wrote a dose of TRUTH with:
>Peter Riden's acceptance on this group has gone way up since he stopped
>trying to claim that TGB was a family nudist place. I haven't seen
>*anybody* talk down TGB since that happened.
I once saw a video shot at TGB that featured an accordion player. So
I guess the message of the video was "If you like accordion music, you'll
like TGB".
Terry "Lady of Spain, I adore you!" Wood
Q: What do you call an accordion player with a beeper. A: An optimist.
Dan Abel
TerryJWoo...@hotmail.com wrote:
> Q: What do you call an accordion player with a beeper. A: An optimist.
Q: What do you call a trombone player with a daily planner? [same punch line]
Raider Man
Molly Wilson wrote:
> raider ....I personally know of sad cases of family abuse and nudism
> abuse of girls..
It is very Sad that you seem to be fixated on finding any and all cases
of such abuse of children (I do note that you didn't reference "Boys"
does that mean "Boys" aren't "Abused"?), I didn't say that these things
Never happen I said that I believe they are the exception rather than
the rule.
>that certainly was not beneficial to their well being
> ..and no one was documenting these cases.... so how could any any
any
> of these so called cases of happiness and prosperous lives be
> known.....positive innuendos are not proof of anything....so this
renders
> the books non credible.....
There are many "happiness and prosperous lives" and we have given
you multiple links to sites referencing them, but you don't want to
believe that they exist or that they are a lie, just as you refuse to
believe all of the book references we've supplied, personal
anecdotes, Official websites documenting the findings of Reputable
Researchers.
It's much easier to call all these things "Lies and Innuendo"
than to accept that you may be "Wrong".
>and how could a non nudist ..anti
> nudist...police ...or anyone else be untruthful about actual
documented
> cases of molestation and abuse.....yes the police is biases I suppose
> but police records are facts and cannot be disputed.....no one in rec
> nude has proven any of hall of shame cases was not true...jonZeee
I didn't say that the Police are biased that was your statement, I
said that people are biased, I believe in fact that I said that
"Nikki Craft" was biased against Nudists.
In fact most ( 90% +/-) Police Officers are not "Biased" one way or
the other towards Nudism, point is that I know a few people in Law
Enforcement who are Nudists, some very high up in Law Enforcement.
The main thing I can surmise from your postings is that you are for
some reason (probably either past Abuse, Religious Indoctrination or
upbringing) very "Anti-Nudist" and therefore you are more focused
upon any negative information that you acquire and prefer to believe
that anything to the contrary is a lie made up by "Perverts who wish
to continue and spread their illegal activities while lending a façade
of legitimacy to their behavior".
If it is something resulting from some past Abuse I hope that you can
eventually either get some Therapy or in some fashion recover from the
Abuse.
If it is from a "training" as you were growing up I hope that you
can grow beyond the lessons of your youth.
If it is "Religious" than I feel very sorry for you being with a
"Religion" that teaches people to be ashamed of the body that God
gave us.
The Pastor of my Church made it plain that while he may not be Nudist,
he sees no "Sin" in people enjoying Nudism as long as they "put
on clothes to come to Church".
Actually from what I've observed the "Sin" is in being Ashamed of
Gods Creation.
Quoting from Genesis, "They were nude but they were not ashamed."
Furthermore, because God created it, "The human body can remain nude
and uncovered and preserve its splendor and its beauty."
- Pope John Paul II
Raider Man Dan
El Dorado Hot Springs
Dear RM,
"Raider Man" <drago...@pcinternet.net> wrote in message
news:1113436110.2...@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
> Quoting from Genesis, "They were nude but they were not ashamed."
Some translations read the more positive, "They were nude and they were not
ashemed."
> Furthermore, because God created it, "The human body can remain nude
and uncovered and preserve its splendor and its beauty."
- Pope John Paul II
Write on! The first Polish Pope, and the one to make the most sense.
Bill Kisselewczski Pennington
Terry...@nospampleasehotmail.com
To paraphrase Jon Stewart of THE DAILY SHOW:
"Whaaaaatt!?!?!?!??!!?"
Or as Inspector Renault says in Casabanca: "I'm shocked, shocked to find
that gambling is going on in here!"
Yes, I'm shocked that us say that Nikki Craft *WAS* biased against nudists.
Terry "Shocked" Wood
Molly Wilson
all you guys have presented a library of reading material that has been
published in the last forty odd years...and i have read craig and all
the other pedo junk forward and backward and every which way it can read
and interpreted.....so i am more knowledgeable than certainly you and
most others in this NG.....you come at me with this religious upbringing
and i and only i is the most unbiased in this NG compared to the tribal
kind.....i see the benefits of nudism for the ones that are so inclined
and have no moral or religious reasons to resist it......and the good
reasons are not the dogma presented by the cult nudist like you and many
others....example...religious children and atheist children have no
problem with body shame or self image...as these lying cult nudist would
have the world think.....as a matter of fact i believe you could at
random pick 100 non nudist from society and pick 100 nudist from AANR
and the non nudist would be found with the most healthy social attitude
towards their fellow citizens and their naked bodies......and their self
image as a person......nudism is chock full of perverts and pedos and
most of the perverts are real physo cases of the worst kind.....you and
goofus have demonstrated your whore mongering quest for
voyeurism.....now we have got this one straight....NO2.. ok....queers
maintain a low profile in nudism and i believe are low in numbers.....bi
sexuals are in abundance but usually are married or bring a dumb female
with them.......so having said this i am not familiar with any boys ever
being sexually abused by pedos....as the pedos in nudism are there for
the girls and are heterosexual....married ...single....seizing the
moment......so that answers the question of why i speak of girls
only...they are the only victims i have seen..beside adutl
women.....No3....i am sick and tired of responding and hearing that
Nikki Craft is biased.......because that is irrelevant....her cases are
not like mine where i usually shield the victims that have already been
hurt or could have been hurt....or were plain nudist kids allowed to
have sex at their own will......but the greatest nudist hating person on
the planet could document official police and court records and it would
be the same as a nudist loving person right behind him doing the same
thing.....so why do you mention it.....immaturity is the only thing i
can think of or a hopeless desire to defend a guilty situation.....and
another thing i personally know about thirty to thirty five nudist pedos
of which some are listed in N hall of shame ....i know heilberg...nudist
pedo photo guy from germany.....i know personally ...ca...tim
wilcox........i know Nikki Craft personally and she is morally not
inclined to lie.....but that really is of no significance as to her
cases being false ....over the years they would have been
challenged.....i knew most of the club owners personally from ca to
florida and one of the problems that you guys have is you have not been
into a landed sex oriented business such as social nudism....it is a sex
oriented business...just like the TGB....the dirty book store....the
massage parlor....the nude encounter studios.....and all the naked
people magazines....it is one big family..and all of it was set in
motion by the original family nudist camps......so chill out and think
about what you are saying .... and demonstrate some degree of maturity
and then we can have a conversation on the same level......jonZeee
Raider Man
>Anyhow I also observe that you all fancy a lot when it comes to
>Children topics. For the fully functional adult-minded.. come and look
>us up..;-)
I am the one who started with the topic "Children and Nudism".
Raider Man Dan
I set it up because I have Heard and read many posts and messages from
people who seem to be insisting that children should not be allowed at
Nudist Venues, it seems that they believe that such places are only for
"Adults".
I strongly disagree with such narrow-mindedness, after all by
restricting children from the simple pleasure of being Nude and hiding
the Nudist experience from them you are teaching them that being Nude
is a "Secret Adult Thing" and in essence something Shameful and
"Dirty".
The fact is that young Children are Natural Nudists and it is Societal
"Training" which insists that they need to wear clothing to be
"Acceptable".
I have seem many, many Children who without hesitation will strip off
their clothes while playing and not show the least bit of
"embarrassment" or "shame" usually it is between the ages of 5 and 10
that they have been indoctrinated with modesty that they start being
embarrassed if seen Nude and this is because they have been taught by
either their Family or Society that to be Nude is "Bad" and "Shameful".
I know that some (jonZee) are certain that anyone involved with talking
of the topic of "Nudism" in conjunction with "Children" is obviously
involved in or has a prediliction towards Pedophilia or Child
Pornography, but I think anyone who looks at my postings with a mature
unprejudiced eye will see that I have not posted anything of the sort.
In fact I am very strong against activities of that kind and find it
offensive that someone would accuse me otherwise.
So unless someone can show a real problem I will keep this;
"Children and Nudism"
Raider Man Dan
" ... with very young children accustomed from the beginning to nudity
in themselves and their parents, a great deal is taken for granted, and
it doesn't seem to be much of an issue to them. What nudity does is
make it easy for children to become absolutely certain about just how
men and women are made. This knowledge is of great importance in
assuring the child of his or her own correct gender. The differences in
body states and sizes - and in body organs - can then be taken for
granted and will provide an accurate image of how they themselves, or
the opposite sex, will look when grown up. Children whose parents feel
at ease in such natural events as stepping out of the shower, toweling,
and walking back to their room to dress are fortunate." - Dr.
Calderone, MD (The Family Book About Sexuality, New York: Harper & Row,
1981)
Raider Man
children at Nudist Venues that are acting as "Normal" children, if you
listen to "jonZee" all of the children at these places are being Abused
and Molested.
I have here some letters that I copied from the April 2005 issue of
"The Bulletin" Published by The American Association for Nude
Recreation.
I hope the AANR doesn't mind my use of the articles.
__________________________________________________________________________________
A Kid's view of Sunsport Gardens Festival
By Mary Beth Hietapelto, age 11
I'm Mary Beth Hietapelto, daughter of Cathy Hietapelto who manages the
Sun-sport Gardens restaurant. I'm going to tell you about what it's
like for an 11-year-old kid at a festival like Sunsport Gardens
Mid-Winter Naturist Gathering.
Friday was the day it all started. I got to Sunsport at 3p.m. just in
time for children's body painting. Tom Black Hawk Ca.ffrey and Katie
Hietapelto, the kid supervisors, painted anything anywhere. I got a
moon on my back done by Katie. Also on Friday I got to meet other vice
kids. That night we watched a movie and ate popcorn and played until it
got late.
I had a ton of fun under the blazing sun.
Saturday morning I woke early to eat breakfast at Alice's Restaurant.
(Com-pliments to Cathy, Jessica Lipinski, and Patty Martin) At 10:30
a.m. the other kids were awake, and it was time for messy gooey race.
This was fun with foam, soap, bubbles, and muddy sliding all around. At
1 p.m. we had pool games, swimming races, and more. We also did a mural
painting on the pool walls, and just
before that we had a clown show. To end Saturday was a campfire with
s'mores and a kid sing-along. We played Duck Duck Goose, too.
Sunday was leaf painting, and that was lots of fun for everybody. Me
and some of the other kids sold sunscreen and lem-onade. Thanks to the
lemonade kitchen staff, we raised $62 to help support the children's
area. At 11 a.m. Barbara Fries helped us finish the mural painting,
which is by the pool showers if you ever get a chance to see it. Mter
lunch we made mouth watering and very scrumptious banana splits. Four
o'clock was great, thanks to those who helped us prepare for the talent
show. At 7 p.m. we had fun family games with Morley Schioss.
On Monday I played hookie which means I skipped school. At 10 am. we
played exploring foods, and we guessed what foods we were feeling in
different bags. We made dream catchers with Wal-ter Two Eagle Smith. We
had field and pool games again, thanks to Mr. Tattoo guy. At 3 p.m. we
had a pudding toss. That's when you get to throw pudding at each other,
and that was my favorite thing I did. I smeared pudding all over
people. The talent show was at 8 p.m.
Every good story has a little bad, and my bad is that me and my sister
were so tired that we had to miss it. I would like to say thanks for
all the good times we had practicing "Puff the Magic Dragon" and other
great tunes.
I went to school on Thesday, and I missed the closing friendship
circle, but I had a ton of fun under the blazing sun.
So, I hope next year you will come to the Mid-Winter Naturist Festival
at Sunsport Gardens.
Spreading the Word
By Kameron Goodin, age 16
Last summer I attended the FANR Youth Leadership Academy at Sunsport
Gardens and found solace in not being an outsider.
It provided needed comfort and assurance as to why I was a
nudist and how my beliefs fit in.. Of all the activities I participated
in, the seminars were the most beneficial and enjoyable for me.
The topics were extremely pertinent to our everyday lives.
It was so encouraging to hear others talk about their experiences and
how they handled problems with non-nudist friends.
It reminded me of a family meeting; everyone had a right to speak and
to be heard.
I was able to get new ideas for how to deal with situations that
inevitably arise.
I found a peer group that affirms something important to me that I
can't truly share with my friends at school because even if they
are "tolerant" they still just don't get it.
Camp Can Be .... .Or At Least This One Can
By Jeanene Watters, age 16
Instead of the boring routine where parents send you off to camp for a
couple of weeks where you do not want to be, FANR Youth Camp provides
intellectual, thought-provoking workshops, mouthwatering meals,
everlasting friendships, and lots and lots of fun, not to mention the
memories that last a lifetime.
During the workshops, the academy discusses nudism and the counections
to it.
We share our thoughts and stories of how we can be nudists without
being criticized, how to be comfortable with ourselves and our peers
without embarrassment, and how nudism can fit in with our friendships
and our morals.... As we listen to each other, we bond, thus starting
new friendships.
We become comfortable with each other, and we forget about the
uneasiness there is between adolescent peers.
For one week a miniature family is formed.
What Nudism Means to Me
By Morgan Salomon,
Age 13
One more way I think of nudism is it is a peaceful and happy
lifestyle, where everyone can be comfortable and live in harmony with
each other and nature. In the textile world, you are always worrying
about what people think about you and what you look like.
In a nudist society everyone gets along, and no one judges you simply
because of your looks.
Therefore, not even one single person is ashamed of their body,
uncomfortable, or miserable.
Also since you are "au natural," you can exist as one with nature.
You can feel the warmth of the sun gently bathing your skin.
You can feel the cooling waters caressing your body in a never-ending
flow.
And you can also feel the unconditional love of every living breathing
creature around you, calling you back to your original way of life one
of peace, harmony, happiness and nudity.
What Nudism Means to Me
By William E. Williamson III,
Age 14
I live in Alabama, which is a good way from Virginia by car.
Back home I don't really have friends.
I lost most of them after my accident Here it's like no one cares
about my condition.
No one even notices (which is great).
I've made several friends here, even a "close friend."
I really try hard to be accepted everywhere I go, but it never seems
to work.
But here, it's different.
We wake up at 6:30 am to the sunrise and work with complete teamwork
until 11:00 p.m.
We are all friends here.
Everyone gets along.
Usually I'm a complete loner, but now I have friends.
It is very good to be in a place where people accept you.
I believe all of this is because of nudism.
It brings everyone together.
It takes everyone who feels left out and puts them in the crowd.
No one notices your differences.
Everyone accepts you for who you are all because you are nude.
__________________________________________________________________________________
These kids don't sound "Abused" or Deluded to me.
Raider Man Dan
Joseph Greene
Raider Man wrote:
> SAFETY When In Public Nude
> We read in the papers almost daily of some teacher, youth leader,
> church official or some other trusted individual who took advantage of
> a child in a sexual way. With hundreds of nudist clubs in North
> America, that problem almost never takes place at our nudists
> facilities.
I spoke today with a Social Worker who is assigned to a specialized sex
offender treatment unit, specifically asking about this issue. Of the
50 patients on his unit, none have ever used nudist venues as hunting
grounds for their victims. Nor have any of the other patients he has
treated in the past 2.5 years.
We have _extensive_ histories on these folks when they come to the
long-term units, and during the course of therapy we fill in the gaps
pretty thoroughly. While it is possible that some may not have revealed
having done so, it's pretty unlikely; these guys are pretty used to
being very open about their behavior.
What he did point out is that what is more important to a sexual
predator is to be in a position of perceived authority, where they can
convince a child to cooperate with the behavior. Teachers (both formal
and informal; informal meaning Sunday School and the like), ordained or
lay clergy, and Scoutmasters are popular kinds of activities. Becoming
a stepparent is also common.
Obviously, people do engage in the above activities for reasons other
than sexual predation. But given the patterns of manipulation
characteristic of the molester, these would be much more appealing than
a nudist venue. It's easier to hide their arousal until they are ready
to reveal it to the victim.
Admittedly, this is anecdotal data, but it's probably a reasonable basis
for a hypothesis: Sex offenders who offend against children utilize
nudist venues for the purposes of sexual predation significantly less
than they utilize non-nudist venues for the same purpose.
I wonder if there's a grant to study that. <g>
> Another fact to ponder: Almost all sex offenders are males.
Certainly the vast majority of those who are convicted. Some have
speculated that the rate of female offending is much higher than would
be suggested by the arrest/conviction rate. No data I'm aware of to
support this.
At a nudist
> club, it would be very easy to tell if a man were to become sexually
> excited.
Which is not what the sexual predator wants. Their success is based on
being clandestine.
Regards,
Joseph
Molly Wilson
crap an adult nudist puts forth.......yep.....the kids were all smiling
and having fun while being body painted...and that one little loner was
made to feel wanted...yeah he she wanted by the nearest pedophile....and
it is the same with the fat freckled women with hairlips as it is with
the little fat girls with freckles and hairlips.......nudism does not
discriminate because of looks.....as exhibitionism glorifies when
naked...and the nudist call this body enhancement and body acceptance
and self image enhancement...but it is sexual exploitation of the sexual
kind for the moment......by the lustful......now those kids and those
fat little ladies do not realize this until they seek out permanent
relations that would seem to come but never do....cyndiann is an
example.....cyndiann could have married a nice moral guy in a church
setting or local single clothed meets.....and lived the good
life.....but the lustful has exploited her for many years....now it is a
way of life.....the kids do not understand it either...and the little
girls do not tell strangers that their clits got hard and it was a
sexual turn on....or maybe they did not know it was a sexual turn on in
the beginning but when they did learn ...then they will go and seek it
out..and try to recapture the turn on that was so great.....and some if
they cant find a junkyard dog of a guy to marry them of which will most
certainly have to be a textile guy that is not interested in taking a
nudist child bride to see moma and folks back home...because little boy
nudist are very rare and do not attention and by adolescent age are
seldom seen.....then a black smiling pimp might be ok.....or a naked
dancer job might be ok.....or a biker gang monkey might be ok.....or go
down to the mean streets and dance naked and maybe capture that turn on
they had as little girl....and if all fail .....try having sex and
getting paid for it while trying to recapture the moment......but the
married pedo is seizing the moment and he does care for these
children...but hey kid i cant take you home...we have to seize the
moment......and then they seem to be concerned about things they cant
discuss with the kids at school.....yeah man...thats real responsible
parenting.....putting this burden on a childs back to handle those
squeamish situations at school.....and i have forgot to mention in a
while about the rate of drop out from school of nudist kids that cannot
handle it any longer...and when a nudist family has left nudism and
things have went bad.....where was dennis craig to get the story.....oh
ok.....he was back at camp talking TO the fresh turned on new parents or
cult parents AND their turned on little girl.... that were ignorant or
lying about what i have said and the real true REALITY.......was anybody
in RN expecting any other statements by naked children.....if you were
you sure have never been to a family nudist camp....no not laughing it
is really sad......jonZeee
Molly Wilson
camps.....well let me tell you how it is ok.....i got many years
experience doing what not many people have ever done....studying the
effects of nudism on children.....FIRST...and you gotta listen close
man.....ever try meeting a nudist in the textile world.....there are so
few in comparison to the textiles....that a man could spend nine
lifetimes and never meet a nudist in the textile world ....it would be
like trying to find a needle in a haystack........nudist pedophiles are
also hard to find.....but the nudist camps where little naked girls roam
are easy for anyone daring to be nudist can go and encounter little
naked girls that are turned on and naked.....yeah naked.....those
clothed pedos and little clothed girls have a barrier between
them.....first of all they are both clothed....and the little girl is
not turned on but a smart textile guy can use the nudist story to get
her naked and turned on but that still is a little risky because if she
tells she was naked then CPS might be called.....but hey the guy goes
to a nudist camp where many naked little girls have been released to go
off premises with said pedo..or to his trailer or her parents trailer or
just do it in the swimming pool or hot tub or on the couch in the club
house......and when they reach his home she is ready to get naked and if
caught naked then ..NO..big deal....she is a nudist kid...and so is the
pedo a nudist......what a deal.....come on Joseph aint that
somethin.....i bet you never thought of it that way right.....now if
they were not nudist.....somebody like the textile pedo is going to
jail.....what fool wants to go to jail for being naked with a
child.....see if goofy jackson had been smart he would have went to a
nudist camp and picked a little girl as there would not have been many
little boys to pick as you only find one or two and he is hunting rocks
or playing video in the trailer.....but if he had found the naked little
girl he probably would not have his present problems......yeah
right.....naked exploitation of little girls made easy by family
nudism.....hey you got any questions...Joseph...i got all the
answers....dont be bashful and tribal.....hell this is why i am
here....and now you got to admit....that here is a situation that some
little girls get molested that was made possible and easy by social
family nudism ....that had the little girl been a textile and not turned
on would have had clothing as a barrier to molestation......and it is
totally irrelevant that nine thousand kids got molested in each and
every church in america everyday of the year......as one naked child in
nudism could have been prevented that is the question.......so lets talk
on topic naked children and the high risk of molestation that a naked
child presents..........that is what we need to talk about .....that is
relevant ....to nudism...jonZeee
Molly Wilson
ever ever ever said social nudism consisting of the two genders was
OK....that says it all....everybody says the body is beautiful ....even
ol grandma goody.....get a life....jonZeee
Molly Wilson
compared to textile pedos...and they discover that the red hot dripping
little naked nudist girls are the max turn on and have NO NO NO interest
in clothed kids...they are unique ....created by and for the naked
nudist girl by the family nudist...lets talk...jonZeee
Dario Western
There is growing evidence that whom we know as Jonzeee is actually some
basket case called Larry Gooden, whom you can learn more about by looking
him up on Google. If it is him, I'm surprised that the state didn't put him
into an invalids nursing home and deny him access to a PC again.
In friendship and honesty,
Dario Western
"Raider Man" <drago...@pcinternet.net> wrote in message
news:1113368156.6...@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
>
> Richard C. wrote:
> > X-No-archive: yes
> >
> > "Molly Wilson" <mollye...@webtv.net> wrote in message
> > ============================================
> > Listen, you syphilitic little worm.
> > You are so full of fetid s**t.
> > http://www.issaquahchamber.com/
> >
> > You are now proven once again to be lying scum!
> > ==========================================
>
>
> Now, Now Richard, We both realize that "jonZee"s main purpose here is
> to cause aggravation.
> But we shouldn't give She/He/It the satisfaction by dropping to "Its"
> level with insults.
> We all know that "jonZee" doesn't care if we post 200 irrefutable
> Facts, "jonZee" will insist that they are all lies because "They"
> don't want to believe "They" could be wrong.
>
>
>
> Raider Man Dan
>
Mark
> hey Joseph.....how you doing man....have you enjoyed many days at nudist
> camps.....
~snipping the drivel
> ......what a deal.....come on Joseph aint that
> somethin.....i bet you never thought of it that way right.....
Neither did anyone ELSE with education and half a brain 'think of it that
way'.....
Raider Man
you have some severe issues and that you should seek therapy
immediately.
The amount of "Sick", Twisted, Vile Drivel in those posts show that you
are in desperate need of some Serious Help.
As a Psychiatric Professional myself your need is glaringly obvious.
Please seek Counseling.
Raider Man Dan
Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
> In article <d3k2s0$mdm$1...@usenet01.srv.cis.pitt.edu>,
> TerryJWoo...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
>
>
>>Q: What do you call an accordion player with a beeper. A: An optimist.
>
>
> Q: What do you call a trombone player with a daily planner? [same punch line]
>
Q: What do you call an accountant signing up with a dating service?
[same punchline]
Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
Joseph Greene
Mark wrote:
> ~snipping the drivel
>
>
>>......what a deal.....come on Joseph aint that
>>somethin.....i bet you never thought of it that way right.....
>
>
> Neither did anyone ELSE with education and half a brain 'think of it that
> way'.....
Umm... what _was_ 'that way'? I didn't see Jonzee's reply. I'm mildly
curious as to what he said.
Regards,
Joseph
Molly Wilson
professional dr of some kind..huh........how much do those drs charge
you for that kind of treatment ...are you on lsd danny boy...jz
Molly Wilson
Mark
"Joseph Greene" <jgre...@ev1.net> wrote in message
news:1113485275.3b3d7b44e43e1ed3f08818558f9f08d3@teranews...
>
> Umm... what _was_ 'that way'? I didn't see Jonzee's reply. I'm mildly
> curious as to what he said.
>
> Regards,
>
> Joseph
You must have him killfiled--His whole post follows:
hey Joseph.....how you doing man....have you enjoyed many days at nudist
Dan Abel
"Raider Man" <drago...@pcinternet.net> wrote:
> I set it up because I have Heard and read many posts and messages from
> people who seem to be insisting that children should not be allowed at
> Nudist Venues, it seems that they believe that such places are only for
> "Adults".
Although there have been many posts, they are from a very few people.
Upon reading those posts, it is evident that most of these people have
never experienced social nudity first hand, and are posting from the point
of view of a perverted textile.
Al Bundy
deranged mind. My world is destroyed.
Breanainn
>Thanks for the link.
>The reference to "a clergyman" is not specific enough, in my opinion.
>Where the clergyman is coming from would be plainer if his
>denominational affiliation were mentioned, for example, a U-U clergyman
>might be expected oft to disagree with a CLC clergyman.
>
>NICB
And most will disagree with a member of the Pagan Clergy... with the
exception of the UU
Breanainn - Pagan Priest, licensed Minister
Raider Man
http://www.fcn.ca/children_2.htm
I'm sure "jonZee" will tell us that it is faked by "Perverts".
Raider Man Dan
Raider Man
Hey Dan, would you be counting "jonZee" in that (perverted textile)
group?
I certainly feel that She/He/It might fit in there.
Raider Man Dan
Raider Man
So you are saying that the direct quote is a "Lie"?
Raider Man Dan
Molly Wilson
fabricated lie by nudist to get children naked so they can be
molested..jz
Molly Wilson
perverted....watching live sex shows....and on top of that you have had
nasty child sex porn on your web site...so that says it all...so you are
a pervert.....and of course all the other perverts like sylvia and
willy and a host of others....leaves lurkers with no other option than
to reject social family nudism as not being child friendly....and should
be renamed .. for adults only..jonZeee
Raider Man
Actually "jonZee" I'vebeen working in the Mental Health field for over
30 years now.
How long have you been in need of Therapy?
Raider Man Dan
Mark
> goofus....you have admitted behavior that is considered
> perverted....
Nope, I reported on situations that existed at an adults-only hotel...on the
other hand, YOU have admitted far worse (even though highly unbelievable and
unlikely to have happened).
> watching live sex shows....and on top of that you have had
> nasty child sex porn on your web site...so that says it all...
I've had NOTHING on my website other than a link to a site with many
questionable links (interspersed with LEGITIMATE links)--my mistake--I
admitted it wasn't wholesome and removed it. Have you traced Pete's links
and the links from those links as you did my ONE link? I expect an answer
simmons.
> so you are
> a pervert.....and of course all the other perverts like sylvia and
> willy and a host of others....leaves lurkers with no other option than
> to reject social family nudism as not being child friendly....and should
> be renamed .. for adults only..jonZeee
Lurkers can read 2 or 3 of your posts and see right through your
transparency......didn't take sylvia (or even VC) very long to figure out
your motives......G'night john---(Jeez you're easy pickins')
Raider Man
http://www.bodyfreedom.org/guide/at_risk.html
http://www.ling.ed.ac.uk/~timm/personal/n/index.html
"Are you Nudist Material?"
http://www25.brinkster.com/nudist/test.asp
I wonder how "jonZee" will do on the test?
My score is: 12 - 14: Prime nudist material!
Raider Man Dan
Mark
"Raider Man" <drago...@pcinternet.net> wrote in message
news:1113526788.8...@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
El Dorado Hot Springs
Dear Mark,
"Mark" <ma...@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:%UF7e.9947$44....@newsread1.news.atl.earthlink.net...
> same score here
With some of the tittering in there, I don't think it was written by a
nudist.
But, answering in the vein it was written, we both scored 15.
Bill
Stuffed Tiger
>
>"Peter Riden" <Affi...@the-grand-barn.com> wrote in message
>news:1113396265.5546a71f827159825e48bd7e6f0fc644@teranews...
....snip ...
>Mark to Peter>
>,,, --you are honest in what it is JUST AS OTHERS are HONEST with what
>family nudist resorts present. Simmons is NOT one of those who is honest
>with that--he sees things that none of us EVER have seen....and he makes it
>sound like he's seen this crap EVERY damned time he's been to a family
>nudist venue. He is a goddamned liar, I know it and you know it!
It's true Peter. I only see his posts that others quote, but those are
serious fabrications that can only be intended to deceive and corrupt.
The lies are the only readable text in the quotes. He is not only
dishonest but intentionally so, a troll at work I'm sorry to say.
... snip ...
>I have great respect for Cheef myself.....he's contributed MUCH to family
>nudism, as has Dennis Kirkpatrick. You'd do well to develop the respect in
>"your community" that they have in the nudist community.
... snip ...
Me too, Mark. And what is that TLT nonsense, Peter? If you mean to be
derogatory, the joke is on you. Hey, I'd be happy to join such a TLT.
I'm a member of Cheef's website. I'd be proud to be associated with
Cheef any day, but there is no TLT as far as I can tell. :-)
Anyway, Peter, you know I wish you and yours to stay safe and well at
TGB, and I thank you for keeping TGB distinct from family nudism. It
is always a pleasure to read your posts as well as Mark's.
ST
"Freedom is a funny thing. The more of it you steal from the other
guy, the less of it you have." st05
Raider Man
"JonZee" or "Molly Wilson" or whoever you are I wish you would post in
a more coherent fashion and reference other posts properly so I could
figure out what you are talking about and who you are talking to.
I have heard more understandable babble from my patients(and some of
them are heavily medicated).
It might be even better if (Since you're so "Anti-Nudist") that you
just quit posting here and go away.
Raider Man Dan
Vagina Canal
> In fact, neither Molly nor Johnzee exist in real life.
>
> There is growing evidence that whom we know as Jonzeee is actually some
> basket case called Larry Gooden, whom you can learn more about by looking
> him up on Google. If it is him, I'm surprised that the state didn't put him
> into an invalids nursing home and deny him access to a PC again.
>
> In friendship and honesty,
>
> Dario Western
Thanks, Dario but I put "Molly" in the LooneyFile with the rest.
Vagina Canal
> Raider Man wrote:
>> SAFETY When In Public Nude
>> We read in the papers almost daily of some teacher, youth leader,
>> church official or some other trusted individual who took advantage of
>> a child in a sexual way. With hundreds of nudist clubs in North
>> America, that problem almost never takes place at our nudists
>> facilities.
On Wed, 13 Apr 2005 20:21:54 -0700, Joseph Greene wrote:
> I spoke today with a Social Worker who is assigned to a specialized sex
> offender treatment unit, specifically asking about this issue. Of the
> 50 patients on his unit, none have ever used nudist venues as hunting
> grounds for their victims. Nor have any of the other patients he has
> treated in the past 2.5 years.
>
> We have _extensive_ histories on these folks when they come to the
> long-term units, and during the course of therapy we fill in the gaps
> pretty thoroughly. While it is possible that some may not have revealed
> having done so, it's pretty unlikely; these guys are pretty used to
> being very open about their behavior.
>
> What he did point out is that what is more important to a sexual
> predator is to be in a position of perceived authority, where they can
> convince a child to cooperate with the behavior. Teachers (both formal
> and informal; informal meaning Sunday School and the like), ordained or
> lay clergy, and Scoutmasters are popular kinds of activities. Becoming
> a stepparent is also common.
>
> Obviously, people do engage in the above activities for reasons other
> than sexual predation. But given the patterns of manipulation
> characteristic of the molester, these would be much more appealing than
> a nudist venue. It's easier to hide their arousal until they are ready
> to reveal it to the victim.
>
> Admittedly, this is anecdotal data, but it's probably a reasonable basis
> for a hypothesis: Sex offenders who offend against children utilize
> nudist venues for the purposes of sexual predation significantly less
> than they utilize non-nudist venues for the same purpose.
>
> I wonder if there's a grant to study that. <g>
>
>> Another fact to ponder: Almost all sex offenders are males.
>
> Certainly the vast majority of those who are convicted. Some have
> speculated that the rate of female offending is much higher than would
> be suggested by the arrest/conviction rate. No data I'm aware of to
> support this.
>
> At a nudist
>> club, it would be very easy to tell if a man were to become sexually
>> excited.
>
> Which is not what the sexual predator wants. Their success is based on
> being clandestine.
>
> Regards,
>
> Joseph
Good info, Joseph, thanks.