tonality and time of day
Orlando Enrique Fiol
theory, I am faced with Indian music's legacy of associations between raags and
specific times of day. I know there were all sorts of ancient Greek and Arabic
correlations between scales and bodily humors or activities. But, are there any
written sources that set up correlations between modes or the major/minor tonal
system and times of day? Would I, for instance, find a source stating that in
the Baroque era, minor music tended to be performed at a specific time of day?
Also, we've long held on to the belief that minor equals sad and major equals
happy. However, I've never actually seen this anywhere. Can anyone orient me?
Thanks,
Orlando
J R Laredo
"Orlando Enrique Fiol" <of...@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:MPG.257495583...@news.albasani.net...
For the most part, specific modes for times of day are relegated to the
canonical hours. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gregorian_chant
Otherwise it tends to be a matter of training and exposure.
http://acapella.harmony-central.com/showthread.php?t=427249
In the west through the various media we have been taught to associate
certains kinds of sounds to certain emotions.
Jon Slaughter
The nocturnes obviously. I imagine dance music was oriented at a "time of
day" as I doubt there were many dances were right after breakfeast.
LJS
All I can say about this is that you might want to look at the
Catholic church and the Ismamic chants that are sung from the Minarets
5 times a day for prayers. In the Church, there was a similar concept
used in the monasteries. I think it was five services for that as
well. If there are certain modes that are characteristic of those
services that show a pattern, it may help with your paper.
I would guess that it is more related to the text in both cases, but
there could certainly be more to i than the text. I downloaded a large
pdf from this group at one time for the church that had a vast
collection of the literature used by the Church and if you can come up
with the name for this, I might be able to find it. I have not sources
for the modes that are used in various parts of the Koran or how they
may be selected for singing during the day although I suspect that
there is that information some place.
Sounds like an interesting topic.
LJS
LJS
> happy. However, I've never actually seen this anywhere. Can anyone orient me?
>
> Thanks,
> Orlando
Bernstein suggests that it is the clash of the minor third and its
clash with the Harmonic Series that gives the minor key its dark
quality. The major 3rd fits into the harmonic series very smoothly and
gives us that consonant quality that we equate with order a sense
order and that the m3 produces a clash with the series and this clash
will yield a more disruptive feeling to this sense of order and
serenity and that this is heard as a darker or sad quality to the
music. I nnever did like the Happy/Sad analogy, but I can accept and
understand how it can be seen as Dark/Bright and that can be
interpreted in many ways.
LJS
Jack Campin - bogus address
> sources that set up correlations between modes or the major/minor
> tonal system and times of day? Would I, for instance, find a source
> stating that in the Baroque era, minor music tended to be performed
> at a specific time of day? Also, we've long held on to the belief
> that minor equals sad and major equals happy. However, I've never
> actually seen this anywhere. Can anyone orient me?
For chant, I think you'd usually stay in the same mode all day.
(In the Syriac liturgy, you only change mode once a week).
Maybe melodic shape rather than octave species? I get the
impression most pieces labelled "aubade" start with rising
phrases and pieces labelled "nocturne" have descending ones
predominating, but they're only a small proportion of the
music of the Western tradition.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
e m a i l : j a c k @ c a m p i n . m e . u k
Jack Campin, 11 Third Street, Newtongrange, Midlothian EH22 4PU, Scotland
mobile 07800 739 557 <http://www.campin.me.uk> Twitter: JackCampin
LJS
wrote:
> "Orlando Enrique Fiol" <of...@verizon.net> wrote in messagenews:MPG.257495583...@news.albasani.net...
>
>
>
> > Hi all. For a paper comparing possible classificatory approaches in Indian
> > raga
> > theory, I am faced with Indian music's legacy of associations between
> > raags and
> > specific times of day. I know there were all sorts of ancient Greek and
> > Arabic
> > correlations between scales and bodily humors or activities. But, are
> > there any
> > written sources that set up correlations between modes or the major/minor
> > tonal
> > system and times of day? Would I, for instance, find a source stating that
> > in
> > the Baroque era, minor music tended to be performed at a specific time of
> > day?
> > Also, we've long held on to the belief that minor equals sad and major
> > equals
> > happy. However, I've never actually seen this anywhere. Can anyone orient
> > me?
>
> > Thanks,
> > Orlando
>
> For the most part, specific modes for times of day are relegated to the
>
> Otherwise it tends to be a matter of training and exposure.http://acapella.harmony-central.com/showthread.php?t=427249
>
> In the west through the various media we have been taught to associate
> certains kinds of sounds to certain emotions.
Hi,
I am not saying its not there about the specific modes for times of
day, but I could not find the section you are talking about. Do you
remember the subheading? Its a long article, very good, especially for
Wiki BTW, but a sub heading would be great. I am thinking maybe that
it refers to the modes as related to the canonical hours and thus you
are summarizing to have it include the time, but I missed those facts
as well. So, if you can remember the sub heading, it will save me a
lot of digging through the article.
LJS
LJS
LJS
in that discussion group on the Indian music.
http://www.itcsra.org/sra_others_samay_index.html
is excellent. Thanks for posting that group and thus the link. You
have to go through scores of those small Indian music books to
research just what I saw there in about 10 or 20 minutes. I didn't
have time to check into it, but I think one the links was leading into
the specific components that were required in order to have a raga and
then hopefully into the analysis of the standard ragas.
I did not realize that their music went back 5000 years, I think that
is similar to the Chinese in origin.
Thanks again.
LJS
J R Laredo
"LJS" <ljsc...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:91810786-3921-4610...@j35g2000vbl.googlegroups.com...
LJS
I am sorry that I was misleading about the article stating specifics since
it doesn't, just deals in generalities. The Canonical Hours are the only
place I can think of where time of day would dictate what mode would be
appropriate to sing since the Canonical Hours are just that: specific
procedures for prayer, chanting, and reflecting at specific times of the
day. I don't know of any scholarly work which compiles what is sung when,
which doesn't mean there isn't one, just, I don't know it. You'd almost
have to get a copy of an Antiphonar and study it.
J R Laredo
LJS
Yet I recall, somewhere, Bernstein mentioning that "God Rest Ye, Merry
Gentlemen" is a joyous song even though it is in Aeolian, the precursor to
minor. And something I have noticed, and, it might just be because of the
learned association with a sad text, "Londonderry Aire" doesn't sound to me
like a happy tune. Even though it is notated and most often set as a major
mode, it is really Ionian.
Orangeboxman
systems.
South Indian tonal systems are NOT.
Hans Aberg
Do you have any references? - The Indonesian Pelog scale comes from
India, and I have found I can produce a similar scale by alteration of a
Persian one. (Slendro may come from China.)
Hans
Jack Campin - bogus address
> systems.
>
> South Indian tonal systems are NOT.
That's complete nonsense. North Indian and South Indian systems
are much more similar to each other than either is to anything else
in the world. Where they differ is their terminology, which for
North Indian music does in part come from Persian and Greek theory.
(North Indian theory is a chaotic mess of competing systems, South
Indian is a single unified system).
Carnatic and Hindustani classical musicians have no problem at all
playing with each other. There are some forms more common in one
region than the other, but tonality is not an issue.
Hans Aberg
>> North Indian tonal systems are a lot like Greek and Persian tonal
>> systems.
>>
>> South Indian tonal systems are NOT.
>
> That's complete nonsense. North Indian and South Indian systems
> are much more similar to each other than either is to anything else
> in the world. Where they differ is their terminology, which for
> North Indian music does in part come from Persian and Greek theory.
> (North Indian theory is a chaotic mess of competing systems, South
> Indian is a single unified system).
>
> Carnatic and Hindustani classical musicians have no problem at all
> playing with each other. There are some forms more common in one
> region than the other, but tonality is not an issue.
As for the tuning, this link says that Hindustani (northern India) music
use a formalized tuning system, but does not specify on the Carnatic
(southern India) music:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raga#Northern_and_southern_differences
As for the former, there is an interval and frequency table here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shruti_(musical_microtone)
Do you deem that that correct?
Hans
Jack Campin - bogus address
> > Indian is a single unified system).
> >
> > Carnatic and Hindustani classical musicians have no problem at all
> > playing with each other. There are some forms more common in one
> > region than the other, but tonality is not an issue.
> As for the former, there is an interval and frequency table here:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shruti_(musical_microtone)
>
> Do you deem that that correct?
"There are infinite ratios, and therefore kinds of srutis, in
Indian music as there is full freedom"
Not easy to disagree with that.
"yet the classical values described are..."
Described by who, they don't say. Probably one of the systems
developed in north India around 1800.
I don't think many Indian musicians would get very excited about
the exact just-intonation ratios of notes in the scale. Apart
from fourths and fifths, exact ratios don't feature in older
Indian music theory.
Hans Aberg
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shruti_(musical_microtone)
>>
>> Do you deem that that correct?
>
> "There are infinite ratios, and therefore kinds of srutis, in
> Indian music as there is full freedom"
>
> Not easy to disagree with that.
>
> "yet the classical values described are..."
>
> Described by who, they don't say. Probably one of the systems
> developed in north India around 1800.
>
> I don't think many Indian musicians would get very excited about
> the exact just-intonation ratios of notes in the scale. Apart
> from fourths and fifths, exact ratios don't feature in older
> Indian music theory.
OK. Thanks. It is perhaps like in Turkish, Arab and Persian music, with
no commonly agreed upon tuning, but various suggestions.
[About that slide rule question, it was mentioned on the slide rule
museum site that a guy made a circular slide rule by using CD's. when
one buys a spindle, there may be an extra blank and transparent disc for
protecting the tracks, that might be usable.]
Hans
Orangeboxman
scales is essentially the same as that surrounding Greek scales,
whereas the South Indian scales do not conform so much.
The ascending or descending form of a North Indian scale has no more
than one normally occurring tone corresponding appreciably to either
the major or the minor second, only one for the major or minor third,
etc. It's much like writing ascending and descending scales from D to
d without using more than the first 5 sharps and first 4 flats; like
mixing Lydian and Phrygian in various ways without any actual
chromaticism.
A significant number of South Indian scales, though, include as normal
elements both a tone corresponding to the major second and one
corresponding to the minor second, and something similar happens with
major and minor 6ths both being used freely in either direction.
To North Indian or 'Western' ears, the effect is one of augmented and
diminished intervals not merely between the other six scale degrees,
but also in reference to the root of the scale, itself; something that
doesn't happen as such in Greek or Persian music, or classical western
music.
This is an important difference.
As for Indonesian music, Java and Bali are as different as North and
South India, but both seem to be influenced by music from both parts
of India.
LJS
wrote:
> "LJS" <ljsche...@gmail.com> wrote in message
I don't remember him quoting that one in the lecture series but it has
been a long time since I last went through it. Maybe even someplace
else. No matter.
BUT the problem with Happy/Sad is that it is all so subjective. You
hear GRYMG as being "joyous". Is Joyous the same as Happy? I certainly
don't hear is as sad either. The sort of "happier" phrase, sort of the
B section moves more into Dorian or Lydian and then back to aeolian
for "good tidings of comfort and Joy. (very, very loose and subjective
quick take on its tonaliy!) Again, not sad but is it Happy.
I think that L.B. mentioned "dark" and chose that term because it is
not limited to happy or sad. Emotions are very subjective. I try to
take the Happy/Sad comparison with a grain of salt and accept it as a
very subjective statement that is easily shown to be "true" with an
example of "Go Tell Aunt Rhoda" (or what ever her name is) by being in
Major when the goose is alive but then played in minor when it is
cooked. Personally, I am much happier when the goose is cooked and on
the table myself! lol
LJS
LJS
Hmm, slightly off topic, but except for the Tonic, the Subdominant and
the dominant (Tonic, 5th below and 5th above) does our Western concept
of music, especially from a functional harmonic aspect of the CPP,
really depend on the exact ratios?
With all the various tunings that Hans has pointed out within the CPP
alone seems to suggest that it doesn't. If the music works in the
original tunings, or 12-tet or even on an out of tune piano, the
ratios may be important for some reasons, but we seem to be able to
overlook it when we actually listen to it. If you take an out of tune
piano and tune up the three 5ths to set a tonic, the piano doesn't
seem as out of tune when played in the key of the center tone of the
5ths, than if you have the other tones in tune and the 5ths out of
tune. At least that is the way it sounds to me.
LJS
Hans Aberg
> The biggest difference is that the ideation surrounding North Indian
> scales is essentially the same as that surrounding Greek scales,
> whereas the South Indian scales do not conform so much.
>
> The ascending or descending form of a North Indian scale has no more
> than one normally occurring tone corresponding appreciably to either
> the major or the minor second, only one for the major or minor third,
> etc. It's much like writing ascending and descending scales from D to
> d without using more than the first 5 sharps and first 4 flats; like
> mixing Lydian and Phrygian in various ways without any actual
> chromaticism.
One can introduce the notion of a scale degree, as follows:
Departing from the pitch system generated by a minor second m and major
second M and the set of pitches p m + q M where p, q are integers then.
Flats and sharps alter with the interval M - m. Define a scale degree
for the whole pitch system by d(p m + q M) = p + q. Note that sharps and
flats do not alter this scale degree.
Then Western scales but also those of Balkan typically have 7 notes of
adjacent scale degrees (key does not matter). One can also have scale
with alternate scale degrees; then those alterations have the same
d-number. Typically, the music moves between different scale degrees
when altering, rather staying on the same scale degree (this is hard to
see when only using E12).
This description can be extended to Turkish, Arab and Persian music. One
then still have scales with adjacent d-numbers, but they perform
different intermediate pitches like when k(M - m), where k is a factor
(I omit details).
My guess is that you say it is the same here, only that the scales of
the North typically do not have alternate scale degrees.
> A significant number of South Indian scales, though, include as normal
> elements both a tone corresponding to the major second and one
> corresponding to the minor second, and something similar happens with
> major and minor 6ths both being used freely in either direction.
And here it would be scales with alternate scale degrees, like in
melodic minor, only on other scale degrees, like on the second. - For
intermediate pitches, this can be described using neutral seconds. Such
alternate scale degree occur for example in Swedish music, but also
Persian, Arab and Turkish music. - It is only CPP that finally ended up
using mostly harmonic minor.
> To North Indian or 'Western' ears, the effect is one of augmented and
> diminished intervals not merely between the other six scale degrees,
> but also in reference to the root of the scale, itself; something that
> doesn't happen as such in Greek or Persian music, or classical western
> music.
>
> This is an important difference.
I am not sure what you mean here. Is it an effect caused by alterations
on the second scale degree? Like combining Phrygian and Aeolian (minor)?
> As for Indonesian music, Java and Bali are as different as North and
> South India, but both seem to be influenced by music from both parts
> of India.
Thank you, though I had tuning of the scales in mind.
Hans
J R Laredo
LJS
Yes, this is all the subjective truth, and just something that needs to be
remembered.
Orangeboxman
> on the second scale degree? Like combining Phrygian and Aeolian (minor)?
Not exactly.
Putting aside the question of precise intonation (which is variable
both in western and Indian systems anyway),
the point is that at any point in North Indian raga, for 7 tone scale
degrees 2 through 7, only one form for each of them may be operant;
EITHER a tone we can more-or-less derive from Lydian OR a tone we can
more-or-less derive from Phrygian.
ALL the diatonic scales can be constructed in this way, and much
more.
But a North Indian rag which uses both the major and minor sixth (for
instance) will require that one is always framed as replacing the
other in some way; the two tones above the root of the scale will
practically never succeed each other in a way that treats them as
separate scale degrees... which IS done OFTEN in South Indian music.
Any clearer?
Orangeboxman
The theoretical tuning of scales in Java and Bali both differ from
actual tuning very, very much.
Mostly, Javanese scales sound more like an incomplete whole-tone
scale, stretched out halfway to a series of 5th root of 2 intervals.
Mostly, Balinese scales sound like vague diatonic inclusions of the Z-
tetrachords (contain 6 interval classes each),
like a Hungarian pentatonic scale, or like an inversion of a Japanese
scale.
Hans Aberg
>> Thank you, though I had tuning of the scales in mind.
>
> The theoretical tuning of scales in Java and Bali both differ from
> actual tuning very, very much.
I didn't know there where theoretical tunings. Do you have a reference?
> Mostly, Javanese scales sound more like an incomplete whole-tone
> scale, stretched out halfway to a series of 5th root of 2 intervals.
>
> Mostly, Balinese scales sound like vague diatonic inclusions of the Z-
> tetrachords (contain 6 interval classes each),
> like a Hungarian pentatonic scale, or like an inversion of a Japanese
> scale.
I could produce a pelog scale (measured from a gangsa) by some small
modifications of a Persian one.
Hans
Hans Aberg
Possibly. The normal thing towards the West is to alter the quality of a
scale degree by first passing to another scale degree and then back.
Like in melodic minor: one changes by going down or above the variable
scale degrees and then back again, to one of another quality (like form
minor to major). Then same thing happens in Persian music, but it is
harder to see because of the micro-tonality. Also chromatic trills and
the like can be treated as respecting this.
Now, it seems that you say that this is the typical practice in the
North, but in the South, they may stay on the same scale degree, but
altering its quality. Right?
Hans
Orangeboxman
You can find various explanations by non-Indonesians, but they tend to
reference specific sets of instruments as if they had representative
value. I realize I'm somewhat guilty of contributing to that.
When I have pushed the subject with actual Indonesians, I can never
seem to get a straight answer, although there seems to be some amount
of agreement that a theoretical system of tuning exists from which the
actual tunings diverge.
What I tend to hear somewhat in Balinese gamelans is that the gangsas
and such are close to resolving with some of the more distinctive
harmonics of one or more of the larger gongs in the ensemble. I don't
hear this with Javanese groups.
Under western influence, an attempt was made at one point to build a
just-intoned Javanese gamelan in Javanese court. Lou Harrison actually
completed one, on the basis that his personal 'embat' corresponds to
the just intonation. 'Embat' is the term used for why two people
disagree about how a specific key should be tuned in Java. If I
understand correctly, it is thought to be a matter of personality,
rather than abstract judgment.
For SURE, the much more uniform array of interval sizes in Javanese
music encourages the half-asleep state the Javanese have told me to
associate with the experience of playing their music. But you CAN'T
play Balinese gong kebyar while half-asleep, and the array of usually
very dissimilar intervals do not encourage this, either.
Or I'm wrong. Listen a bit and get back to me on that.
Hans Aberg
>> I didn't know there where theoretical tunings. Do you have a reference?
>
> You can find various explanations by non-Indonesians, but they tend to
> reference specific sets of instruments as if they had representative
> value.
There seems to be more than one tuning in use.
> I realize I'm somewhat guilty of contributing to that.
What might that be?
> When I have pushed the subject with actual Indonesians, I can never
> seem to get a straight answer, although there seems to be some amount
> of agreement that a theoretical system of tuning exists from which the
> actual tunings diverge.
As for the pelog scale, I found a site giving rough proportions of which
one seems to agree. They exclude such suggestions such as E9, as the
pelog intervals are unevenly spaced. But the ratio 27/25, one possible
ting of the neutral in Persian music (two syntonic commas above the
minor second), is very close to on E9 tonestep. So that is an interval
that seem to appear in tunings. Another is the Pythagorean minor seconds.
> What I tend to hear somewhat in Balinese gamelans is that the gangsas
> and such are close to resolving with some of the more distinctive
> harmonics of one or more of the larger gongs in the ensemble. I don't
> hear this with Javanese groups.
One source said they tune the other instruments from the gender. So it
may suffice to focus on that one.
> Under western influence, an attempt was made at one point to build a
> just-intoned Javanese gamelan in Javanese court. Lou Harrison actually
> completed one, on the basis that his personal 'embat' corresponds to
> the just intonation. 'Embat' is the term used for why two people
> disagree about how a specific key should be tuned in Java. If I
> understand correctly, it is thought to be a matter of personality,
> rather than abstract judgment.
Western experts seem to not know how the instruments are tuned. But
modifications using Pythagorean tuning with syntonic commas (or using
E53) seems one possibility. I tried a bit with meantone (or E31), and
the fit was not very good.
> For SURE, the much more uniform array of interval sizes in Javanese
> music encourages the half-asleep state the Javanese have told me to
> associate with the experience of playing their music. But you CAN'T
> play Balinese gong kebyar while half-asleep, and the array of usually
> very dissimilar intervals do not encourage this, either.
>
> Or I'm wrong. Listen a bit and get back to me on that.
Some of the music certainly has some trance-like qualities, even used in
the past in late evenings when getting to sleep.
But I do not that will help to figure out what tuning they are used.
Hans
Steve Latham
> Hi all. For a paper comparing possible classificatory approaches in Indian raga
> theory, I am faced with Indian music's legacy of associations between raags and
> specific times of day. I know there were all sorts of ancient Greek and Arabic
> correlations between scales and bodily humors or activities. But, are there any
> written sources that set up correlations between modes or the major/minor tonal
> system and times of day? Would I, for instance, find a source stating that in
> the Baroque era, minor music tended to be performed at a specific time of day?
> happy. However, I've never actually seen this anywhere. Can anyone orient me?
>
> Thanks,
> Orlando
Orlando,
In the Baroque, there was the Doctrine of Affections.
More to your research, there's the idea of KEYS having certain
qualities - Keys like F Major had "Pastoral" qualities, C Major was
"triumphant" or "jubilant", C Minor was sad, Am plaintive (and this
before the associations with Beethoven).
So Tonalities associated with "moods" or "manners", (and I don't know
of any specific documentation of these) but not with times of day to
my knowledge.
Obviously, in the tonal era, there are but two modes - major and
minor. Day and night would be about as close as you could get to any
hourly relationship.
Remember with the modes, there were 8 ecclesiastical modes, then in
the Renaissance, 4 more (total of 2 as described in Dodecachordon) so
the fact that they're constantly shifting implies that any such
associations would be short-lived.
I think your best bet would be looking into Medieval chant, were
certain melodies we applied to certain feast days, services, etc.
There are things called "Matins" and Nocturns or Vigils, but I don't
know that they use specific modes (or a specific set of modes) for
either.
If you find out, though, I'd be interested to know.
Steve
Steve Latham
> Hi all. For a paper comparing possible classificatory approaches in Indian raga
> theory, I am faced with Indian music's legacy of associations between raags and
> specific times of day. I know there were all sorts of ancient Greek and Arabic
> correlations between scales and bodily humors or activities. But, are there any
> written sources that set up correlations between modes or the major/minor tonal
> system and times of day? Would I, for instance, find a source stating that in
> the Baroque era, minor music tended to be performed at a specific time of day?
> Also, we've long held on to the belief that minor equals sad and major equals
> happy. However, I've never actually seen this anywhere. Can anyone orient me?
>
> Thanks,
> Orlando
Orlando,
Here's something:
Like their classical and medieval counterparts, renaissance musical
theorists associated each mode with a specific 'ethos' or mood, much
as we today tend to associate music in minor keys with sadness or
gravity and that in major keys with happiness and lightheartedness.
Thus Adam Gumpelzhaimer (1559-1625), in his Compendium musicae latino
germanicum (1595) enumerated the 12 modes as follows:
* Dorian: Hilaris (Dorian: Cheerful)
* Hypodorius: Moestus (Hypodorian: Sad)
* Phrygius: Austerus (Phrygian: Severe)
* Hypophrygius: Blandus (Hpophrygian: Enticing)
* Lydius: Asper (Lydian: Harsh)
* Hypolydius: Lenis (Hypolydian: Gentle)
* Mixolydius: Indignans (Mixolydian: Impatient)
* Hypomixolydius: Placabilis (Hypomixolydian: Placable)
* Aeolous: Suavis (Aeolian: Pleasant)
* Hypoaeolius: Tristus (Hypoaeolian: Sorrowful)
* Ionicus: Jucundus (Ionian: Delightful)
* Hypoionicus: Flebilis (Hypoionian: Tearful)
Steve
Hans Aberg
> In the Baroque, there was the Doctrine of Affections.
>
> More to your research, there's the idea of KEYS having certain
> qualities - Keys like F Major had "Pastoral" qualities, C Major was
> "triumphant" or "jubilant", C Minor was sad, Am plaintive (and this
> before the associations with Beethoven).
Perhaps there is a relation to the tunings they used? - If they reduced
Renaissance split-keyboards to various 12-note meantone tunings, there
would have been at least a wolf present, putting limitations on modulation.
Hans
Orangeboxman
Yes. In fact, I'm not sure I have ever heard 2 ensembles that really
used the same array of interval sizes.
All the octaves seem large to me, but some are VERY large.
> As for the pelog scale, I found a site giving rough proportions of which
> one seems to agree. They exclude such suggestions such as E9, as the
> pelog intervals are unevenly spaced. But the ratio 27/25, one possible
> ting of the neutral in Persian music (two syntonic commas above the
> minor second), is very close to on E9 tonestep. So that is an interval
> that seem to appear in tunings. Another is the Pythagorean minor seconds.
Close enough to my ear. Javanese scales almost all seem to be in some
neutral point
between the 3 least left packed 5-n set classes. And because the
octave is not of fixed
size across ensembles, it is difficult to talk about what the other
intervals really are
and to talk about what they might be if the octave were not stretched,
as if these two things
were actually the same.
> One source said they tune the other instruments from the gender. So it
> may suffice to focus on that one.
In Java, very likely. I have more of an ear for Balinese ensembles;
especially the gongs.
> Western experts seem to not know how the instruments are tuned.
VERY true. But Java has been repeatedly influenced by sounds from
China, India and Holland,
and it is hinted at that the music has become more and more culturally
neutral.
In both Java and Bali, the grammar seems to have more to do with
ordinal proximity
of pitch and the tangency or non-tangency of dyads than it does with
specific interval sizes.
Gamelan is a music of rhythm and contour more than of 'harmony' in the
western sense.
But
> modifications using Pythagorean tuning with syntonic commas (or using
> E53) seems one possibility. I tried a bit with meantone (or E31), and
> the fit was not very good.
It will always depend on your octave size and the harmonic content of
the specific oscillators.
> Some of the music certainly has some trance-like qualities, even used in
> the past in late evenings when getting to sleep.
>
> But I do not that will help to figure out what tuning they are used.
Debussy hear Javanese music at the World's Faire; not Balinese music.
He was already using a lot of dominant 9 kind of stuff due to Wagner's
influence,
but right about the time of his exposure to Javanese music he begins
using
whole tone scales much more aggressively. That the whole-tone set is
now a cliché
for TV and movie dream sequences does not seem to me like some kind of
random coincidence.
I rather wish Debussy had ALSO heard Balinese music. Although modern
gong kebyar wasn't actually happening yet at that point, some
precursor to that could have sent his music in a very different
direction.
Orangeboxman
notated today, as lower-pitched instruments were used.
How much of the affects are to be attributed to the actual frequency
bands of the pitches and how much is to be attributed to the qualities
of various Baroque instruments when played in those keys is unclear.
That is: if you really want to apply the principle correctly, you'll
need to use Baroque intonation on Baroque instruments,
or a lot of things will not sound as indicated.
Hans Aberg
>> There seems to be more than one tuning in use.
>
> Yes. In fact, I'm not sure I have ever heard 2 ensembles that really
> used the same array of interval sizes.
> All the octaves seem large to me, but some are VERY large.
I measured a gangsa which had a rather stretched 5th partial, tens of
cents per octave. So that might invite a stretch tuning. One can stretch
for other reasons.
>> As for the pelog scale, I found a site giving rough proportions of which
>> one seems to agree. They exclude such suggestions such as E9, as the
>> pelog intervals are unevenly spaced. But the ratio 27/25, one possible
>> ting of the neutral in Persian music (two syntonic commas above the
>> minor second), is very close to on E9 tonestep. So that is an interval
>> that seem to appear in tunings. Another is the Pythagorean minor seconds.
>
> Close enough to my ear. Javanese scales almost all seem to be in some
> neutral point
> between the 3 least left packed 5-n set classes. And because the
> octave is not of fixed
> size across ensembles, it is difficult to talk about what the other
> intervals really are
> and to talk about what they might be if the octave were not stretched,
> as if these two things
> were actually the same.
I got better E53 fit by first unstretching the intervals.
>> Western experts seem to not know how the instruments are tuned.
>
> VERY true. But Java has been repeatedly influenced by sounds from
> China, India and Holland,
> and it is hinted at that the music has become more and more culturally
> neutral.
That would be the slendro, but they can perform the same piece in both
slendro and pelog.
> In both Java and Bali, the grammar seems to have more to do with
> ordinal proximity
> of pitch and the tangency or non-tangency of dyads than it does with
> specific interval sizes.
> Gamelan is a music of rhythm and contour more than of 'harmony' in the
> western sense.
One way that one might do is to rearrange the pitches as to destroy
obvious intervals ratios.
> But
>> modifications using Pythagorean tuning with syntonic commas (or using
>> E53) seems one possibility. I tried a bit with meantone (or E31), and
>> the fit was not very good.
>
> It will always depend on your octave size and the harmonic content of
> the specific oscillators.
One may have to take some tuning stretch into account, and harmony in
the sense of always trying to achieve stability is much of a CPP thing,
perhaps needed in view of the large orchestras they used.
>> Some of the music certainly has some trance-like qualities, even used in
>> the past in late evenings when getting to sleep.
>>
>> But I do not that will help to figure out what tuning they are used.
>
> Debussy hear Javanese music at the World's Faire; not Balinese music.
>
> He was already using a lot of dominant 9 kind of stuff due to Wagner's
> influence,
> but right about the time of his exposure to Javanese music he begins
> using
> whole tone scales much more aggressively. That the whole-tone set is
> now a clich�
> for TV and movie dream sequences does not seem to me like some kind of
> random coincidence.
>
> I rather wish Debussy had ALSO heard Balinese music. Although modern
> gong kebyar wasn't actually happening yet at that point, some
> precursor to that could have sent his music in a very different
> direction.
Though I doubt he wrote for their scales. :-)
Hans
Hans Aberg
Particularly string instruments brighten up if tuned up if tuned higher
- if the instrument is of same size, which I assume is the case of old
violins. :-) This requires strings made of better material. But during
the 19th century E12 pianos came into common, so if orchestras use that
as a reference for some meantone drawn adaptive tuning, other
differences between the keys would have been equalized. One should alos
note increased skills of musicians to perform in any key, and
developments in mechanics on winds and brasses.
The gist, though, is that during the Baroque period perhaps they had
good reasons of assigning different qualities to the keys.
Hans
Orlando Enrique Fiol
>In the Baroque, there was the Doctrine of Affections.
Exactly. I'm looking for some primary sources. I keep seeing references to the
affections, but no central repository listing them.
>More to your research, there's the idea of KEYS having certain
>qualities - Keys like F Major had "Pastoral" qualities, C Major was
>"triumphant" or "jubilant", C Minor was sad, Am plaintive (and this
>before the associations with Beethoven).
Temperament surely had a lot to do with those associations, though. Depending
on which transposition of Werkmeister or Valotti one used, the associations
from one key could be grafted on to another.
>So Tonalities associated with "moods" or "manners", (and I don't know
>of any specific documentation of these) but not with times of day to
>my knowledge.
I was afraid you'd say that.
>Obviously, in the tonal era, there are but two modes - major and
>minor. Day and night would be about as close as you could get to any
>hourly relationship.
Of course. But, do you find that major is always associated with day and minor
with night?
Thanks,
Orlando
Orlando Enrique Fiol
>Here's something:
That's exactly the kind of stuff I was looking for. Where did you find that?
Can I have something close to a full citation?
Thanks,
Orlando
LJS
> Hi all. For a paper comparing possible classificatory approaches in Indian raga
> theory, I am faced with Indian music's legacy of associations between raags and
> specific times of day. I know there were all sorts of ancient Greek and Arabic
> correlations between scales and bodily humors or activities. But, are there any
> written sources that set up correlations between modes or the major/minor tonal
> system and times of day? Would I, for instance, find a source stating that in
> the Baroque era, minor music tended to be performed at a specific time of day?
> Also, we've long held on to the belief that minor equals sad and major equals
> happy. However, I've never actually seen this anywhere. Can anyone orient me?
>
> Thanks,
> Orlando
You know, after thinking about Steve's post, I seem to remember that
there was a sight that Jack (?) had posted or has on his site
somewhere that had that same or slightly different information and
maybe from the same source. I think I was looking for the rhythmic
modes and their effect and while looking through his site, I found
this information. Just a thought for you quest.
LJS
Orangeboxman
obvious intervals ratios.
Actually, that would seem to explain it perfectly if it happened to be
true.
There may at least be an aesthetic value against interval duplication
in both Java and Bali,
but no one has told me such, nor have I read it.
It would seem to make sense with the Balinese scales, especially,
though,
as the intervals tend to be of much more appreciably different sizes
at each step.
Orangeboxman
good reasons of assigning different qualities to the keys.
Having heard some of the more faithful efforts to reproduce the sounds
of Baroque music, I am inclined to believe that noted qualities of the
keys was at least not completely arbitrary.
A Baroque bassoon playing in C Major and a modern bassoon playing in B
Major differ slightly in intonation,
but there are other differences in quality that are, to me, anyway, of
greater note.
Hans Aberg
Also, modern instruments have been developed as to equalize the
difference between the keys.
Hans
Hans Aberg
Some (referring to a set 27 measured gamelans) seem to prefer a scale
compression rather than a stretch. In unstretched E53 the most favored
first three intervals are 6 6 12 and 5 6 12. Perhaps the 5 is used to
raise the first note, making it stand out a bit. Such small changes help
giving the tunings a special feel. If one should adhere to the Persian
recipe, then the distance between the 6th and 8th scale degrees would be
17 tonesteps in E53, but most prefer 18, or close to the Pythagorean
major second 9/8.
Hans
Orangeboxman
difference between the keys.
Both in intonation and timbre, yes.
With the Baroque bassoon, regardless of intonation, different
fingerings have different spectral qualities,
which are less pronounced on modern bassoons. Basically, the more
sharps and flats are in use, the
more irregular the thing tends to sound. Given the same design, but
with modern intonation, the same
would be true, but the key assignment to modern listeners would be
different for the same set of fingerings.
B major was a pretty weird key in the Baroque era, even though it was
close to modern Bb major
(one of the most 'normal' major keys on a lot of modern instruments).
I consider that this probably had more to do with instrumental
mechanics than with actual pitch-frequency
assignment.
Orangeboxman
than compressed octaves,
but that's no reason to prefer them for every possible effect.
I have actually heard pianos with deliberately compressed octaves,
myself.
I don't especially like it, but I think it works for things like Bach,
where composers
have somehow missed the fact that a real octave is essentially a
compound unison.
Whether to use a stretched of compressed octave would seem in part to
be tied up in the question
of whether we are trying to get a specific combination of inharmonic
partials to be more resolved or less resolved
than they would be at a simple 2:1 of fundamentals.
Sometimes 'less' is 'more', eh?
Hans Aberg
Stretch may be a compensation for the inharmonicity. The gangsa I
measured has a very strong 5th partial with a stretch of some tens of
cents per octave. This corresponds to typical gamelan stretch. But the
some figures suggest they have used compressed octaves as well (the
figures are scrambled so it is hard to tell for sure). I'm then not sure
as to why that is used - only that it may be the case.
But the playing range (ambitus) is rather small. So if compressing the
scale, the effect may be as to raise the lower notes. This is a common
feature in music from the Balkans down to Persia, though one just raises
a specific note, and stick to the scale.
Hans
Hans Aberg
Also, the basis for the music would have been some meantone, so the
holes might have been drilled as to facilitate that. Scottish music is
also meantone drawn, I think Jack Campin said, and then they use tape on
the bagpipes to adjust.
Modern Western orchestral instruments are made as to facilitate E12, and
so any pitch adjustment will be equal in any key (though adjustment
range varies between notes).
Hans
Orangeboxman
It is on pianos, certainly. I'm inclined to think that it is elsewhere
as well, generally.
If the inharmonicity is very great, though (on metallophones), octave
compression may actually be an easier way to avoid to jangliness.
Octave perception deteriorates in the low bass range, and relations
between the higher harmonics of very low tones and tones in the mid-
range are peculiar indeed, even without appreciable inharmonicity, so
bass pitches below some point could really be almost anything and have
some particular perceived effect on sonority and pitch structure.
Hans Aberg
>> Stretch may be a compensation for the inharmonicity.
>
> It is on pianos, certainly. I'm inclined to think that it is elsewhere
> as well, generally.
>
> If the inharmonicity is very great, though (on metallophones), octave
> compression may actually be an easier way to avoid to jangliness.
I measured as gangsa, and it had about the same inharmonicity as the
most popular tuning stretch of the before mentioned gamelan orchestras,
or about 18 cents per octave. (Some use a higher amount of stretch,
about 31 cents or more, others very little, a few cents. The small
amount of compression, a few cents might be within the accuracy of the
measurements.)
So it certainly possible that this is a stretch tuning, dependent on the
inharmonicity of the instruments.
Also, the gangsa had only a string fundamental and a very strong 5th
partial. Though it is a metallophone, one strikes it in a special way.
On timpani, this is also done, as to suppress the fundamental. The
resonance body helps to line up a few partials. Perhaps this is the same
with the pitched gamelan instruments.
So they certainly have instruments with the 5th partial to work with, if
they would like.
> Octave perception deteriorates in the low bass range, and relations
> between the higher harmonics of very low tones and tones in the mid-
> range are peculiar indeed, even without appreciable inharmonicity, so
> bass pitches below some point could really be almost anything and have
> some particular perceived effect on sonority and pitch structure.
An exercise is to play on the piano one note in the bass and one a
couple octaves higher in the treble plus a semitone - in effect adding
an octave stretch.
Relative pitch is also lost at (possibly depending on ears) about and
above 3500 Hz, or A7 (with A4 = 440 Hz). So the three highest notes on a
grand piano might need some special tuning.
Hans
Orangeboxman
> couple octaves higher in the treble plus a semitone - in effect adding
> an octave stretch.
I actually did that for a theory class once when the professor left
the room briefly after using
a piano to 'show us which intervals are in the harmonic series'.
Only one classmate asked what my point was.
My point was: 'Our professor may not lie, but his piano sure does.'
Hans Aberg
If the notes are close together, one might detect inharmonicity by means
of difference tones and beats among the partials, but if the distance is
great, that is not possible. It is funny how music theory may
extrapolate into contexts where it is no longer true.
Hans
Orangeboxman
> of difference tones and beats among the partials, but if the distance is
> great, that is not possible. It is funny how music theory may
> extrapolate into contexts where it is no longer true.
>
> Hans
Aaron Copeland understood that for sure.
Stravinsky may have known it but not used it as a crutch, or worked
against it with extra accidentals.
Hans Aberg
>> If the notes are close together, one might detect inharmonicity by means
>> of difference tones and beats among the partials, but if the distance is
>> great, that is not possible. It is funny how music theory may
>> extrapolate into contexts where it is no longer true.
> Aaron Copeland understood that for sure.
>
> Stravinsky may have known it but not used it as a crutch, or worked
> against it with extra accidentals.
Some of it transports by tradition - listeners may simply be used to
certain features and that familiarity translates into new musical
contexts. One example is the augmented sixth, which in quarter-comma
meantone is very close to the interval ratio 7/4. In E12, the particular
harmonic stability of this augmented sixth is lost, instead being
similar to the minor 7th in both E12 (obviously) and meantone. But when
working with E12 tunings, some still use the augmented sixth as a
predominant.
Hans
Orangeboxman
Chords of the augmented sixth, I have naturally studied and come to
accept, but they have never really worked for me as a listener to
12tet music, and it seems to me they depend upon reference to a
different array of intervals in which something like a sharp and a
flat at the same time didn't simply sound like two sharps or two
flats, as they tend to anymore.
12tet accidentals jammed on both sides of an absent tone or its octave
so as to form an interval sounding like a major second (or minor 7th)
tend to sound to me as if they want to move away from each other (or
away from each other's octaves, as with the augmented 6th), not both
to the absent tone (or its octave). Absent any reference to 'scale
degrees' such as provided by graphic spellings, the motion I suggest
would seem to be the more normal behavior of such intervals; major
2nds outward, minor 7ths inward.
Then again, I only got the maximum scores on the JOCF tests for pitch
discrimination and ordered pitch memory, so maybe my Schenker
professor was right in suggesting I can't actually hear music as I
should... that is (I can only assume what he must have meant, given
the subsequent tests): as other theorists have decided it 'must be',
rather than as it simply is.
Hans Aberg
The augmented 6th is in 1/4 comma meantone and E31 very close to the
interval ratio 7/4 - in the latter, it is only 1.0840 cents off. It thus
has better harmonic stability than the perfect 5th 3/2 in E12, which is
1.955 cents off.
The interval ratio 7/4 is very special: it is off the modern E12, but
has a harmonic stability. You can listen to them here (made using Scala
and a pipe organ patch):
http://math.su.se/~haberg/m7a6M.mp3
It is the sequence of chords: Ab7 Ab+6 G in E31; Ab7 Ab+6 G in E12; Ab7
in E31 and in E12; Ab+6 in E31 and in E12. Listen particularly for the
Ab+6 in E31.
So assume that one uses the idea consonance means better stability in
the tuning one uses. Then, in a tuning where the 7/4 is close to the
augmented 6th, it will be off the common diatonic scales, but still have
better harmonic stability than a chord that uses the dominant 7th. So an
augmented 6th cannot resolve to the the dominant 7th. That puts some
hard restrictions on its use within such a theory, like for example a
pre-dominant resolving to a major dominant without the 7th. (In E31 the
minor 3rd 6/5 is 5.964 cents off, so the augmented 6th cannot move to a
chord with that one included - only the major triad is more stable.)
Of course, one can just skip that theory when making music.
Hans
LJS
Interesting perspective. If I understand "worked for you" in the
proper context I understand you to be saying that you either don't
like them (which is very subjective) or that you don't hear it as a
functional relationship. Since I don't think you would consider the
subjective aspect of the Aug6 as worthy of discussion I am assuming
that you don't seem to hear it is 12-tet as a functional progress. If
this is so, then I am a bit confused.
The Aug6 may have been used first in the early baroque and have its
roots in a more just tuning, but it certainly flourished later in the
12-tet music. If you can't hear it as functional, then your professor
may have been correct about your description of how you hear things.
Pitch discrimination is one thing. Learning to hear the music and
interpretation are two different things. This could explain your need
to get the actual pitches of a scale in order to talk about it.
Fortunately, I do not have that problem. Although I have good pitch
recognition, as I studied and listened to music, I have either learned
or naturally possessed the ability to "translate" different tunings
into the conventions of the day.
I do, however, believe that if this is the case, you could learn to
hear the music as the composers seemed to have heard it when they
wrote it. Like on of my teachers that had a hard time playing the
Viola as with her perfect pitch, it always sounded out of tune to her.
(isn't that the case with ALL viola music! lol) She was, however, able
to listen to music and all the functional implications worked for
her.
Being able to hear both ways seems to be the way to go. If I
understood your "gripe" correctly, I hope that you will be able to
learn to listen and translate so that you can experience those things
that are not perceptible to you at present.
If I have missed your point, then I have no idea of what you are
saying or how it matters. lol
LJS
Stefan
I must say, I do no, unfortunately, almost nothing about indian music.
But I remember having read something by Clarence Barlow about a
something similar. I suggest You to contact him. He has a web adress at:
http://kalvos.org/barlowk.html
Good luck!
Orlando Enrique Fiol schrieb:
David Raleigh Arnold
Like "My Favorite Things" from /Sound of Music/?
There is no shortage of crazy xxxx from theorists of any age. Seek, and
ye shall find. ;-} Regards, daveA
--
For beginners: very easy guitar music, solos, duets, exercises. Early
intermediate guitar solos. One best scale set for all guitarists.
http://www.openguitar.com/scalescomparison.html ::: plus new and
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