1971 Album Survivor, MATCHUPS, Semifinals
AlbumSurvivor
Album Survivor game; from our original batch of over 360 albums
released in '71, we have narrowed the field to the Final Four.
For this round, you two selections to make: for each randomly-selected
matchup, indicate your preference. You do not have to vote for both
matchups.
Which albums should survive to move on to battle each other for the
title of Ultimate 1971 Album Survivor? You may post your choices (and
any comments you wish to make) here or send them as e-mail to
AlbumS...@yahoo.com .
1971 Album Survivor, MATCHUPS, Semifinals
The Who - Who's Next vs. John Lennon - Imagine
Led Zeppelin - untitled (AKA Led Zeppelin IV) vs. The Rolling Stones -
Sticky Fingers
Intheway
The Who - Who's Next
The Rolling Stones - Sticky Fingers
Dylan Parry
Rather an easy round for me, as I only like one half of each match :)
> The Who - Who's Next vs. John Lennon - Imagine
The Who.
> Led Zeppelin - untitled (AKA Led Zeppelin IV) vs. The Rolling Stones -
> Sticky Fingers
Led Zeppelin.
--
Dylan Parry
http://electricfreedom.org -- Where the Music Progressively Rocks!
"Judge of a man by his questions rather than by his answers" - Voltaire
Mark Dintenfass
> The Who - Who's Next vs. John Lennon - Imagine
The Who
> Led Zeppelin - untitled (AKA Led Zeppelin IV) vs. The Rolling Stones -
> Sticky Fingers
The Stones
--
--md
_________
Remove xx's from address to reply
Bob Roman
>
> The Who - Who's Next vs. John Lennon - Imagine
The Who - Who's Next
> Led Zeppelin - untitled (AKA Led Zeppelin IV) vs. The Rolling Stones -
> Sticky Fingers
The Rolling Stones - Sticky Fingers
--
Bob Roman
Millard Isobar
1971 Album Survivor, MATCHUPS, Semifinals:
The Who - Who's Next
Led Zeppelin - untitled (AKA Led Zeppelin IV)
--
Millard
Remove SPAMTRAP to reply
Dan
The Who - Who's Next
The Rolling Stones - Sticky Fingers
--
Dan
to reply by email, yank mychain
amil...@hotmail.com
The Who - Who's Next
Sav...@aol.com
Zep
Tomas
>
Ludovic Delamare
>
> 1971 Album Survivor, MATCHUPS, Semifinals
>
> The Who - Who's Next vs. John Lennon - Imagine
THE WHO. But really, I'm not a big fan of that album at all. The Who is
more of a great singles band in my book.
> Led Zeppelin - untitled (AKA Led Zeppelin IV) vs. The Rolling Stones -
> Sticky Fingers
Ouch, that's really tough. Two of my favorite records of all time. But
I don't agree with Mike Mooney. There's absolutely no filler at all on
LZ IV. (there's not a lot either on Sticky Fingers though). And the
whole album is more creative than Sticky Fingers. Which is like a
transition between Beggar's Banquet and Exile imo. One thing is sure
though : I listen to LZ IV a lot more regularly (yep I'm not even tired
of Stairway yet. Fortunately enough, we don't have real classic rock
radios in France) !
ZEP !!!
--
Cordialement,
Ludovic
Please remove NOSPAM from my address to email me
Tomas
>
Frankie
> The Rolling Stones - Sticky Fingers
Mump
>
>
> 1971 Album Survivor, MATCHUPS, Semifinals
>
> The Who - Who's Next
>
mike sparrow
1971 Album Survivor, MATCHUPS, Semifinals
The Who - Who's Next
steve sody
the rolling stones- sticky fingers
Parry
> 1971 Album Survivor, MATCHUPS, Semifinals
My picks
> The Who - Who's Next
> The Rolling Stones - Sticky Fingers
--------------------
Dylan Parry
> john lennon- imagine
I was beginning to think no one would vote for this!
--
Dylan Parry
http://electricfreedom.org -- Where the Music Progressively Rocks!
"Under every stone lurks a politician" - Aristophanes
JL
is probably the best one and that's not all that great except for the title
track and a couple of others.
PASS
Julio
now playing : John Kongos - Tokoloshe Man (Fly/Elektra '71)
DianeE
"Dave Allen" <twod...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:twodorian-9FA9E...@teta.doit.wisc.edu...
> ....Sticky Fingers is often my favorite Stones album, alternately
> sharing that top spot with Beggars Banquet and Let It Bleed (Exile
> sometimes makes it to #2, but never #1).
-----------
Except for the parenthetical part, I could have written this sentence.
DianeE
DianeE
1. The Who
2. The Rolling Stones.
I see that Led Zeppelin is going to win. I guess I knew my moment in the
sun was over when that kind of music became popular. "Stairway to Heaven"
is boring, and the rest of it hurts my ears.
DianeE
LRossi3940
The Who - Who's Next
Led Zeppelin - untitled (AKA Led Zeppelin IV)
Len Blanks
The Who - Who's Next
The Rolling Stones - Sticky Fingers
--
Len
Hibbing's a good ol' town.
I ran away from it when I was
10, 12, 13, 15, 15½, 17 and 18.
I been caught and brought back all but once.
-- Bob Dylan
Ricky Gentry
>
> The Who - Who's Next
blanny
THE WHO
> Led Zeppelin - untitled (AKA Led Zeppelin IV) vs. The Rolling Stones -
> Sticky Fingers
LED ZEPPELIN
Tom Lane
Led Zeppelin
Bruce
>
> 1971 Album Survivor, MATCHUPS, Semifinals
>
BobbyM
The Rolling Stones - Sticky Fingers
Rod Carpenter
>
> The Who - Who's Next
>
DianeE
> "DianeE" <Tired...@SorryFolks.com> wrote:
>
> > "Dave Allen" <twod...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > ....Sticky Fingers is often my favorite Stones album, alternately
> > > sharing that top spot with Beggars Banquet and Let It Bleed (Exile
> > > sometimes makes it to #2, but never #1).
> >
>
> parenthetical part. Is it that Exile never ranks as high as #2 for you,
> or that on occasion it is your favorite Stones album?
----------
The former. If it weren't for "Stop Breaking Down" I could do without
Exile altogether. I'd have to go back to Aftermath for my alternate.
DianeE
Phaeton
> 1971 Album Survivor, MATCHUPS, Semifinals
> The Who - Who's Next
> Led Zeppelin - untitled (AKA Led Zeppelin IV)
Cheers, Csaba
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
CSABA I. HARANGOZO |d|i|g|i|t|a|l| phaeton at iinet dot net dot au
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
EARTH::AUSTRALIA:[SYDNEY]HARANGOZO.CSABA;1, delete? [N]:
Not one shred of evidence supports the notion that life is serious.
overdraft01
> 1971 Album Survivor, MATCHUPS, Semifinals
>
Who
>
> Led Zeppelin - untitled (AKA Led Zeppelin IV) vs. The Rolling Stones -
> Sticky Fingers
Rolling Stones
Muggy
The Who
Rolling Stones
Jason Michael
Led Zeppelin - untitled (AKA Led Zeppelin IV)
It seems I'm falling into the populist camp again.
Jason
jasonmichael NOSPAM @ REMOVE canada.com
dr.modesto
> 1971 Album Survivor, MATCHUPS, Semifinals
John Lennon - Imagine
Led Zeppelin - untitled (AKA Led Zeppelin IV)
--Glenn
NP: Sonic Youth - Goo
Greg Ioannou
Now THAT would be my candidate for best album of 1971 -- except the album
was from 1970. The single was perhaps from 71. Kongos blows all four of the
finalists out of the water.
Greg
Greg Ioannou
Who and Zep
Greg
Bajamark
> The Who - Who's Next
> Led Zeppelin - untitled (AKA Led Zeppelin IV)
dr.modesto
> dr.modesto <dr.mo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> NP: Sonic Youth - Goo
>
> ...which I'd choose over almost all of the albums in this 1971 tournament. :)
Yeah, I had just given The Who's classic finely-tuned rock one more
spin and felt a strong desire to hear some classic not-so-finely-tuned
rock. Can't say I'd swap ZOSO or TAGO MAGO for GOO, but DAYDREAM
NATION would likely mop the floor with nearly all of it.
--Glenn
NP: Husker Du - NEW DAY RISING
TODD TAMANEND CLARK
> I think I will be forced to pass on these four weak albums,
> the Lennon album is probably the best one and that's not
> all that great except for the title track and a couple of
> others.
What Julio said.
As usual in these newsgroup contests, we're left with a
bunch of corporate dinosaur AOR bullshit, overhyped albums
by artists who were the very reason punk rock needed
to come into existence.
Some of us were already years ahead of the curve listening
to The Velvet Undergound, The Flamin' Groovies, The MC5,
The Stooges, Alice Cooper, The New York Dolls, etc.
(((((((((((((((((( * ))))))))))))))))))
TODD TAMANEND CLARK
Gothic-Industrial-Cyberpunk Composer
Primal Pulse Productions
Greensboro, Pennsylvania
http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/ttc
Now Playing: Unit Structures (Cecil Taylor, 1966)
JGM
> bunch of corporate dinosaur AOR bullshit, overhyped albums
1. "AOR" didn't exist in 1971;
2. The "corporate" aspect of rock didn't either, really (though Sticky
Fingers represents something of an early milestone in this regard as
the Rolling Stones Records deal was everything Apple failed to be)
3. Overhyped? I dunno: there wasn't really an organized hype machine
in '71, either, I don't think. Of course Rolling Stone mag and what
passed for a rock "establishment" (only a few years old at the time!)
had their own peculiarities and insularities, but the record buying
scene was still pretty organic at the time; go back a few rounds and
look at the variety (dare I say diversity) of acts and styles that made
the charts. You want to talk overhyped, fast forward a few years to
Zappa's Apostrophe album.
So, if we view this thing contemporaneously, then I think your
criticism is completely off-base. Of course, a lot has happened
between '71 and now, and you are free to take that into account: I'd
certainly agree that since then these albums (and many others that made
it into the AOR/Classic Rock canon) have been *overexposed*; whether
that makes them any inherently less *worthy* of regard is debatable.
> by artists who were the very reason punk rock needed
> to come into existence.
Enh. If you are able to clear your mind of preconceptions and really
listen to, say, Sticky Fingers or Imagine, I think you'll find that
they are pretty damn punky in their own ways. You can make your own
decision as to the relative merits of "Sister Morphine" as opposed to
"White Punks on Dope" or "Now I Wanna Sniff Some Glue", or consider
"Gimme Some Truth" vs. "Anarchy in the UK", but I think you'll find
that the the artists involved on both sides of this coin were, in their
own moments, more kindred spirits than not.
Put another way: "Won't Get Fooled Again" is, essentially, a punk rock
song, with as much bitter angst and impotent raging against the machine
as any Richard Hell song you can name. The fact that it has been
played to death on mega-corporate radio and used as a TV show theme is
a sad irony; does it make the song (and the album it's on) less worthy
of consideration?
> Some of us were already years ahead of the curve listening
> to The Velvet Undergound, The Flamin' Groovies, The MC5,
> The Stooges, Alice Cooper, The New York Dolls, etc.
This strikes me as posturing as well. Curve? What curve? Again,
there was no AOR radio to filter this stuff out in '71: pretty much
everybody who listened to the Stones and Who *did* also listen to or at
least know about most of the bands you mention, either through
underground/progressive early FM, the early rock press, or word of
mouth. It's just that some of this stuff later made the cut as
"classic rock" and some didn't. As insidious and inbred as that format
has been, I do think there was some relationship between what albums
entered that canon and the underlying quality or worthiness of the
music: from a critical perspective, at least, the contemporaneous
reviews bear this out.
So, if you want to say "I'm sick of these albums and never want to
hear them again, so I'm not voting for any of them", fine, you are of
course free to use whatever criteria you like; but if you want to say
"these albums suck and always have, because they were not as cool as
the stuff I listened to" then I think you are kidding yourself, or, as
Mike M. points out, confusing obscurity or hipness with quality.
JGM
JGM
> I see that Led Zeppelin is going to win.
Actually neck-and-neck right now.
JGM
dr.modesto
> TODD TAMANEND CLARK wrote:
>
>> bunch of corporate dinosaur AOR bullshit, overhyped albums
>
> 1. "AOR" didn't exist in 1971;
>> Some of us were already years ahead of the curve listening
>> to The Velvet Undergound, The Flamin' Groovies, The MC5,
>> The Stooges, Alice Cooper, The New York Dolls, etc.
>
> This strikes me as posturing as well. Curve? What curve? Again,
> there was no AOR radio to filter this stuff out in '71: pretty much
> everybody who listened to the Stones and Who *did* also listen to or at
> least know about most of the bands you mention, either through
> underground/progressive early FM, the early rock press, or word of
> mouth.
>
> I understand your point that "classic rock" albums from 1971 were not
> created with an eye to capitalizing on/playing to the US AOR market,
> but I actually thought AOR did technically take hold in 1971. Doing a
> quick search, I found a WRKO history claiming that its AOR format was
> started in the latter part of 1971. I know very little about the
> early history of AOR (or WRKO, for that matter), so I could have just
> come across a flukey or inaccurate reference. Is there a year that's
> considered the big breakthrough year for the format?
--Glenn
NP: The Disposable Heroes Of Hiphoprisy - Hypocrisy is the Greatest Luxury
Brett A. Pasternack
>>Julio wroteth:
>>I think I will be forced to pass on these four weak albums,
>>the Lennon album is probably the best one and that's not
>>all that great except for the title track and a couple of
>>others.
>
>
> What Julio said.
>
> As usual in these newsgroup contests, we're left with a
> bunch of corporate dinosaur AOR bullshit, overhyped albums
> by artists who were the very reason punk rock needed
> to come into existence.
....says the Doors fan.
JGM
dr.modesto wrote:
> > but I actually thought AOR did technically take hold in 1971. Doing a
> > quick search, I found a WRKO history claiming that its AOR format was
> > started in the latter part of 1971. I know very little about the
> > early history of AOR (or WRKO, for that matter), so I could have just
> > come across a flukey or inaccurate reference. Is there a year that's
> > considered the big breakthrough year for the format?
Could be, but I suspect they are "backdating" their entry into the
format. Of course, early FM "progressive" stations *always* played
album cuts; that's how they got their start. But I don't think there
was much thought to "formats" at that point. And it could be that my
definition is just wrong, but what I think of as "AOR" -- the idea of a
limited stable of artists and styles, a mix of old and new album cuts,
and specifically the segregating out of most R&B/Soul -- didn't take
hold where I was (Chicago) until around '74 or so.
JGM
Ian Doran
DianeE
"TODD TAMANEND CLARK" <tama...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1127998551....@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> > Julio wroteth:
> > I think I will be forced to pass on these four weak albums,
> > the Lennon album is probably the best one and that's not
> > all that great except for the title track and a couple of
> > others.
>
> What Julio said.
>
> As usual in these newsgroup contests, we're left with a
> bunch of corporate dinosaur AOR bullshit, overhyped albums
> by artists who were the very reason punk rock needed
> to come into existence.
>
> Some of us were already years ahead of the curve listening
> to The Velvet Undergound, The Flamin' Groovies, The MC5,
> The Stooges, Alice Cooper, The New York Dolls, etc.
And some of us were in our basement room with a needle and a spoon,
listening to Junior Wells and Buddy Guy.
DianeE
Endy9
--
Dennis/Endy
http://home.comcast.net/~endymion91/
~I was born to rock the boat. Some will sink but we will float.
Grab your coat. Let's get out of here.
You're my witness. I'm your Mutineer~ - Warren Zevon
--
"AlbumSurvivor" <AlbumS...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1127831868.6...@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
> Here are the matchups for the Seventh and Semifinal Round of our 1971
> Album Survivor game; from our original batch of over 360 albums
> released in '71, we have narrowed the field to the Final Four.
>
> For this round, you two selections to make: for each randomly-selected
> matchup, indicate your preference. You do not have to vote for both
> matchups.
>
> Which albums should survive to move on to battle each other for the
> title of Ultimate 1971 Album Survivor? You may post your choices (and
> any comments you wish to make) here or send them as e-mail to
> AlbumS...@yahoo.com .
>
>
> 1971 Album Survivor, MATCHUPS, Semifinals
>
RevReplies
news:1127831868.6...@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com
The Who - Who's Next
Saw The Who on this tour-the loudest show I've ever attended
The Rolling Stones -Sticky Fingers
For my money, they peaked with "Brown Sugar" While I prefer this to
"Exile" (a grossly overrated record IMHO), nothing tops the 1-2 punch of
"Beggars Banquet" & "Let It Bleed"
Rev
--
Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG
TODD TAMANEND CLARK
>
> And waving the punk flag, huh?
Punk music has been an important component of my
musical taste ever since the proto-punk days of
The Sonics and The Seeds in 1965.
I'm very interested in the long view of protest in
this hemisphere and even designed a college course on
the topic:
HISTORY OF AMERICAN DISSENT
I. Native American
A. Precontact
B. Contact
C. Genocide
D. Resistance
E. Survival
F. Assimilation
G. Rebirth
II. Transcendentalist
A. Animistic God Concept
B. Classic Anarchy
C. Civil Disobedience
D. Transcendentalist Literature
III. Surrealist
A. Proto-Surrealism
B. Self-Inflicted Madness
C. Dream Interpretation
D. Psychoanalysis
E. Hispanic Socialism
F. Surrealist Paintings
IV. Beat Generation
A. Post-War Vacuum
B. Meeting Of The Minds
C. Jazz
D. Travel
E. Social Disillusionment
F. Beat Literature
V. Counterculture
A. Hallucinogens
B. Rock Music
C. Civil Rights
D. Peace Movement
E. Gender Liberation
F. Free Speech
VI. Punk
A. Modern Anarchy
B. Punk Rock
C. Nihilism
D. Punk Culture
VII. Cyberpunk
A. Science Fiction
B. Electronic Music
C. Digital Technology
D. The Internet
E. Industrial-Gothic Culture
Main textbooks:
A People's History Of The United States: 1492-Present
[New Edition]
(Howard Zinn, 2003)
Acts Of Rebellion: The Ward Churchill Reader
(Ward Churchill, 2002)
Year 501: The Conquest Continues
(Noam Chomsky, 1992)
Plus a separate biography of a prominent individual
from each movement:
I. Native American: Tecumseh (1768-1813)
II. Transcendentalist: Henry David Thoreau (1817-1862)
III. Surrealist: Frida Kahlo (1907-1954)
IV. Beat Generation: William S. Burroughs (1914-1997)
V. Counterculture: Jim Morrison (1943-1971)
VI. Punk: Patti Smith (1946-present)
VII. Cyberpunk: Trent Reznor (1965-present)
+ + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +
TODD TAMANEND CLARK
Poet/Composer/Multi-Instrumentalist/Cultural Historian
The Monongahela River, Turtle Island
http://tinyurl.com/5uu5c
TODD TAMANEND CLARK
> Too bad you're decades *behind* the curve now, eh?
> Still clinging to tired industrial-beat acts whose
> style already seemed passé by the early '90s?
So put up or shut up.
What albums released by American artists from 1995
to the present should I be listening to that are
with the curve or ahead of it in your opinion?
The two main components that I look for are great
synthesizer usage and intelligent lyrics. I would
prefer to listen to instrumental music rather than
have to endure incompetent low-brow lyrics. I can
make an occasional exception on the synth content
if there's a highly innovative guitarist like Tom
Morello who gets clever timbres out of his effects
pedals.
Any of these ingredients would additionally be a plus:
Abandonment of Eurocentric key structures
Advanced sample editing
Avant-garde lead guitar
Baritone lead vocals
Complex time signatures and/or dramatic rhythm changes
Effects processing on the vocals
Heavy aggro rhythm guitar
Highly evolved sense of conceptual design
Innovative drum machine programming
Keyboard bass
Native American instrumentation, rhythms, scales, lyrics
Multitimbral MIDI layering
Psychedelic and/or surrealistic content
Radical anti-establishment sociological lyrics
State-of-the-art audio production
Vintage analog synthesizers
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
TODD TAMANEND CLARK
Poet/Composer/Multi-Instrumentalist/Cultural Historian
Owls In Obsidian (CD: Instrumental, 2000)
http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/ttc
Staff, Mask, Rattle (2-CD: Instrumental, 2002)
http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/ttc2
Monongahela Riverrun (CD: Instrumental, 2004)
http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/ttc3
Nova Psychedelia (2-CD: Vocal, 2005)
http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/ttc4
TODD TAMANEND CLARK
> > TODD TAMANEND CLARK commented:
> >
> > As usual in these newsgroup contests, we're left
> > with a bunch of corporate dinosaur AOR bullshit,
> > overhyped albums by artists who were the very
> > reason punk rock needed to come into existence.
>
> .... says the Doors fan.
Jim Morrison was the ultimate subversive anarchist
while he was alive.
It wasn't until after the publication of "No One
Here Gets Out Alive" in 1980 that The Doors became
overhyped.
////////////////////////////////////////////////
TODD TAMANEND CLARK
Shamanic Poet & Electronic Composer
Ludovic Delamare
>> Brett A. Pasternack responded when:
>>> TODD TAMANEND CLARK commented:
>>>
>>> As usual in these newsgroup contests, we're left
>>> with a bunch of corporate dinosaur AOR bullshit,
>>> overhyped albums by artists who were the very
>>> reason punk rock needed to come into existence.
>>
>> .... says the Doors fan.
>
> Jim Morrison was the ultimate subversive anarchist
> while he was alive.
mdr
You should study these things a bit more seriously.
--
Cordialement,
Ludovic
Please remove NOSPAM from my address to email me
TODD TAMANEND CLARK
>
> "AOR" didn't exist in 1971.
AOR existed at least as early as mid-1972 in the
Pittsburgh area when I moved from San Francisco
to Butler, Pennsylvania.
> There wasn't really an organized hype machine
> in '71, either, I don't think.
There's been a hype machine ever since radio
payola in the 1950s.
> You want to talk overhyped, fast forward a few
> years to Zappa's Apostrophe album.
I find your choice of Zappa as an example of
overhype absolutely ludicrous. "No commercial
potential."
> If you are able to clear your mind of
> preconceptions and really listen to, say, Sticky
> Fingers or Imagine, I think you'll find that
> they are pretty damn punky in their own ways.
I'll grant you the example of John Lennon's "Gimme
Some Truth", which along with "How Do You Sleep?"
and "Imagine", caused me to agree with Julio that
the Lennon album is the best of the four left in
the contest.
I'll also acknowledge that the pre-1969 Brian Jones
era Rolling Stones had a fair amount of punkitude,
but there was very little left by 1971.
Led Zeppelin are just about as far from punk as you
can get and still be considered rock.
Here is a partial list of bloated musical artists
who were popular during the 1970s that punk was
an agressive alternative answer to:
Aerosmith
Bachman-Turner Overdrive
Bad Company
Billy Joel
Black Sabbath
Bob Seger
Chicago
Deep Purple
Donna Summer
Eric Clapton
Elton John
Emerson, Lake, And Palmer
Fleetwood Mac
Heart
Humble Pie
James Taylor
Kiss
Led Zeppelin
Lynyrd Skynyrd
Paul McCartney
Pink Floyd
Queen
REO Speedwagon
Rod Stewart
Rush
Styx
The Allman Brothers
The Bee Gees
The Doobie Brothers
The Eagles
The Grateful Dead
The Jackson Five
The Moody Blues
The Rolling Stones
The Who
Traffic
Van Halen
Van Morrison
Yes
> "Won't Get Fooled Again" is, essentially, a punk
> rock song, with as much bitter angst and impotent
> raging against the machine as any Richard Hell
> song you can name.
Unfortunately, it appears to me to be an anti-left
screed of the type Pete Townshend has endorsed ever
since his conflict with Abbie Hoffman at Woodstock.
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
TODD TAMANEND CLARK
Lyricist/Composer/Arranger/Producer/Graphic Artist/
Vocalist/Synthesist/Guitarist/Percussionist/Flutist
TODD TAMANEND CLARK
> > TODD TAMANEND CLARK commented:
> >
> > Jim Morrison was the ultimate subversive
> > anarchist while he was alive.
>
> seriously.
I think I know a thing or two on the topic,
considering that I've made a near-lifetime
academic study of the subject matter, have
spent time in person with Ray Manzarek, and
was one of the contenders to play Jim Morrison
in the film prior to Val Kilmer.
Much of the publicity that The Doors received
previous to 1980 was well deserved. So was some
of it after 1980, but certain authors carried
things a little too far, and the younger
generation of fans often gravitated too much
towards the shocking sensationalism instead of
the philosophical poetry.
The fact that The Doors had songs played on both
AM and FM radio is part of the beauty of the
subversion.
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
TODD TAMANEND CLARK
Ludovic Delamare
>> Ludovic Delamare replied when:
>>> TODD TAMANEND CLARK commented:
>>>
>>> Jim Morrison was the ultimate subversive
>>> anarchist while he was alive.
>>
>> You should study these things a bit more
>> seriously.
>
> I think I know a thing or two on the topic,
> considering that I've made a near-lifetime
> academic study of the subject matter, have
> spent time in person with Ray Manzarek, and
> was one of the contenders to play Jim Morrison
> in the film prior to Val Kilmer.
Alright then. I'm not saying you don't know Morrison. It's just that I
don't see what was especially "anarchist" in his character. And I'm not
saying he was not "subversive". In a rock establishment context, he
certainly was. But the "ultimate subversive anarchist" ! Gimme a break.
Compared to people like Antonin Artaud or even Jean-Luc Godard,
Morrison was a bonafide bourgeois.
JGM
> > JGM editorialized thusly:
> >
> > "AOR" didn't exist in 1971.
>
> AOR existed at least as early as mid-1972 in the
> Pittsburgh area when I moved from San Francisco
> to Butler, Pennsylvania.
As I've acknowledged, there may have been some stations moving in this
direction as early as you claim; the point is that these records
weren't planned and executed as "AOR" content the way, say, a Boston
disc was later on.
> > There wasn't really an organized hype machine
> > in '71, either, I don't think.
>
> There's been a hype machine ever since radio
> payola in the 1950s.
But I don't believe these albums were "hyped" -- at the time of
release, nobody was making grandiose claims or paying off DJs to play
them. They were highly-anticipated releases by big names, were
excellently reviewed and received. In the interim, they've developed
such a reputation leading them to become known as among the "best-ever"
albums even by folks who don't know that much on the subject; this is
different from "hype", though.
> > You want to talk overhyped, fast forward a few
> > years to Zappa's Apostrophe album.
>
> I find your choice of Zappa as an example of
> overhype absolutely ludicrous. "No commercial
> potential."
I didn't say anything about "commercial" (though Apostrophe did hit
the top 10 on the charts), I said hyped. Apostrophe remains the only
album I've ever seen a commercial for on network TV. At the time Zappa
desperately wanted to capitalize on the recognition from the notice
Overnight Sensation got; the album was conciously stuffed full of
short, novelty songs targeting radio airplay, and Zappa appeared on
every magazine and TV show he could get booked for to push the album.
> Here is a partial list of bloated musical artists
> who were popular during the 1970s that punk was
> an agressive alternative answer to:
(snip list)
Not sure your point here; I don't debate that punk arose at least
partially in response to the corporitization and bloat of '70s music;
but many of the artists you list weren't even recording in '71, and
there was, to my understanding, no "backlash" or reaction to this music
going on contemporaneously; certainly I don't view the MC5, Alice
Cooper, and the others you mentioned that way.
My major response to your statement that these albums were "overhyped
AOR corporate dinosaur bullshit" has gone unanswered -- I still think
you are 5 years too early to make such a claim.
JGM
TODD TAMANEND CLARK
> I'm not saying you don't know Morrison. It's just
> that I don't see what was especially "anarchist"
> in his character.
Read the first Morrison biography ever:
Jim Morrison And The Doors (Mike Jahn, 1969)
In fact, Mike occasionally posts on this newsgroup.
He was the first rock critic ever hired by The New
York Times, and knew Morrison and many other 1960s
rock musicians personally.
> And I'm not saying he was not "subversive".
> In a rock establishment context, he certainly was.
I should have clarified myself further and limited it
to musicians active in America between the years 1965
when The Doors were formed and 1971 when Morrison died.
Who else do we have to consider?
Country Joe And The Fish
Jefferson Airplane
Nina Simone
Sun Ra
The Fugs
The MC5
The Mothers Of Invention
The United States Of America
> But the "ultimate subversive anarchist"! Gimme a break.
I didn't intent ultimate as mathematically literal but
simply as expressionistic.
> Compared to people like Antonin Artaud or even Jean-Luc
> Godard, Morrison was a bonafide bourgeois.
Well, if you really want to discuss artists from other
fields during the same time frame, there's always:
Abbie Hoffman
Allen Ginsberg
Anita Davis
Diane DiPrima
Gary Snyder
Huey Newton
John Sinclair
Lawrence Ferlinghetti
Michael McClure
Russell Means
Timothy Leary
Tom Hayden
William Burroughs
- - - - - - -
TODD TAMANEND CLARK
[The signature keeps changing within each thread in order
to defeat the annoying new Google quotation system.]
DianeE
"Ludovic Delamare" <ludovic.rl.d...@free.fr> wrote in message
news:mn.0c947d5ad...@free.fr...
> TODD TAMANEND CLARK vient de nous annoncer :
> >> Ludovic Delamare replied when:
> >>> TODD TAMANEND CLARK commented:
> >>>
> >>> Jim Morrison was the ultimate subversive
> >>> anarchist while he was alive.
> >>
>
> Compared to people like Antonin Artaud or even Jean-Luc Godard,
> Morrison was a bonafide bourgeois.
The ultimate subversive anarchist of rock and roll was Little Richard.
DianeE
Sav...@aol.com
JGM wrote:
> > Some of us were already years ahead of the curve listening
> > to The Velvet Undergound, The Flamin' Groovies, The MC5,
> > The Stooges, Alice Cooper, The New York Dolls, etc.
>
> This strikes me as posturing as well. Curve? What curve? Again,
> there was no AOR radio to filter this stuff out in '71: pretty much
> everybody who listened to the Stones and Who *did* also listen to or at
> least know about most of the bands you mention, either through
> underground/progressive early FM, the early rock press, or word of
> mouth.
I'm afraid not JGM.
I was well aware of the Who, Stones and Led Zeppelin in 1971 (I was 14
years old) but I never heard of the Velvet Undergound until about 1976,
I never heard of the MC5 until the late 70s, I never heard of the
Flamin' Groovies until the late 70s, I never heard of the Dolls until
about 1977, and I never heard of the Stooges until at least the 1980s.
I did like Alice Cooper, especially the "Schools Out" album.
What makes you say that there was no AOR in 1971?
Radio stations like WNEW-FM in NY played album oriented rock, even if
the format hadn't been named yet. I dodn't listen to those stations
except when somebody else had them on when I happened to be around. In
1971 I was listening to WABC, WWDJ (a NJ top 40) and I'm not sure what
esle, maybe WOR-FM if it was still on.
TODD TAMANEND CLARK
> infamous red-headed step-child "Mike G" wrote:
>
> I can't figure out why your taste in older music
> seems a bit broader but, once you get to the mid
> '80s or so, you suddenly stop liking anything
> except self-flagellating, industrial-synth jerkoffs.
> What's up with that?
OBJECTION! Leading the witness!
Could you have asked a more biased and manipulative
question?
Obviously I reject your mischaracterization of the
newer music that I listen to. I don't see a break with
the basic things that I have always liked in rock, it
just uses more advanced technology that has been
invented over time.
It seems to me that Berlin and Missing Persons are
musical descendents of The United States Of America,
The Lords Of The New Church of The Doors, Skinny Puppy
of Silver Apples, Nine Inch Nails of The Stooges,
Ministry and Rage Against The Machine of The MC5,
Marilyn Manson and Rob Zombie of Alice Cooper, etc.
You also forget that in addition to cyberpunk, I
also buy a hell of a lot of Native American music,
both traditional and contemporary. I own hundreds of
compact discs by indigenous artists that you probably
have never heard anything by, if you are even aware
that they exist at all.
> But in any case, as far as newer music, you probably
> should be investigating all the post-rock bands, on
> labels like Thrill Jockey, Touch & Go, and Kranky.
> Or the modern prog stuff on Cuneiform...
There are several hundred releases on those four
labels combined. You're going to have to be a little
more specific.
> Or the multiple projects of Brad Laner, Bill Laswell,
> and Jim O'Rourke.
I already have a smattering of Bill Laswell's stuff.
I'll look into the other two.
> Seems like you should like Diamanda Galas, even
> though she doesn't satisfy many of your requirements.
> But she does have that coldly ruthless, in-your-face,
> abrasive pretension which you demand.
Diamanda Galas has been in the back of my mind for
some time now, but I seem to fail to remember her when
I'm placing a CD order. I'm going to rectify that soon
and get "The Sporting Life" (1994) and "La Serpenta
Canta" (2004). Her incredibly expressive multi-octave
voice seems to be in the tradition of my long-time
favorite Yma Sumac, and her avant-garde piano skills
somewhat akin to Cecil Taylor, but more sparse. She
then sets it all in that demonic harmonic structure
that I find fascinating with The Residents.
> Seems like you might like Les Claypool-related stuff
> too, even though he's not big on synthesizers.
My twenty-nine year old daughter Lyric is heavy into
Primus.
> I don't think I can recommend any electronic acts to
> you, because you only seem to enjoy the most crass,
> unsubtle, bash-it-out variety.
The operative word here is SEEM.
> Anything with an air of restraint or cool refinement
> seems utterly taboo to you, and I can't stomach that
> mentality at all.
Wrong. I like both aggressive industrial noise and
ambient soundscapes when either is done with sufficient
quality.
> It's generally hard for me to recommend things to
> you, because our values in modern music seem to have
> no intersection whatsoever...
Ain't that the truth!
But consider this: you and I are two of the very few
people on these "oldies" newsgroups that like much
of anything postmodern at all, not to mention have a
serious interest in jazz.
> ... and so anything I suggest is likely to be just
> an impersonal attempt at "profiling" you which
> doesn't reflect my own tastes at all.
How about for the moment we set aside my criteria for
the musical side of things and just deal with the
lyrics. What North American or South American or
Caribbean albums of the last ten years do you think
have intelligent and courageous wordplay on a level
with Jim Morrison or Leonard Cohen or Patti Smith?
(Hopefully, other posters will feel free to make
suggestions of their own.)
- - - - - - - - - - - - -
TODD TAMANEND CLARK
Shamanic Poet/Multi-Instrumentalist/Performance Artist
Somewhere In Cyberspace
http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/ttc2
Brett A. Pasternack
>>Brett A. Pasternack responded when:
>>
>>>TODD TAMANEND CLARK commented:
>>>
>>>As usual in these newsgroup contests, we're left
>>>with a bunch of corporate dinosaur AOR bullshit,
>>>overhyped albums by artists who were the very
>>>reason punk rock needed to come into existence.
>>
>>.... says the Doors fan.
>
>
> Jim Morrison was the ultimate subversive anarchist
> while he was alive.
And the overhyping is alive and well.
> It wasn't until after the publication of "No One
> Here Gets Out Alive" in 1980 that The Doors became
> overhyped.
Well, that's when it kicked into overdrive, anyway. But they were still
part of what the punks were reacting to, which was my point. They were
as much part of "corporate AOR bullshit" as Who's Next or whatever. (Not
that I dislike the Doors, mind you--but, then, I think Who's Next is a
great album.)
blanny
> Diamanda Galas has been in the back of my mind for
> some time now, but I seem to fail to remember her when
> I'm placing a CD order. I'm going to rectify that soon
> and get "The Sporting Life" (1994) and "La Serpenta
> Canta" (2004). Her incredibly expressive multi-octave
> voice seems to be in the tradition of my long-time
> favorite Yma Sumac, and her avant-garde piano skills
> somewhat akin to Cecil Taylor, but more sparse. She
> then sets it all in that demonic harmonic structure
> that I find fascinating with The Residents.
And you get 1/4 of Led Zeppelin !
> How about for the moment we set aside my criteria for
> the musical side of things and just deal with the
> lyrics. What North American or South American or
> Caribbean albums of the last ten years do you think
> have intelligent and courageous wordplay on a level
> with Jim Morrison or Leonard Cohen or Patti Smith?
Reggae artists Prince Far I and Burning Spear come to mind.
TODD TAMANEND CLARK
> managed to arrange doughy bleached wheat letters
> in a sugary broth thusly when:
> > TODD TAMANEND CLARK observed:
> >
> > It seems to me that Berlin and Missing Persons
> > are musical descendents of The United States Of
> > America, The Lords Of The New Church of The Doors,
> > Skinny Puppy of Silver Apples, Nine Inch Nails of
> > The Stooges, Ministry and Rage Against The Machine
> > of The MC5, Marilyn Manson and Rob Zombie of Alice
> > Cooper, etc.
>
> cases except perhaps MC5 vs. Rage Against the
> Machine, the newer band is miles weaker than the
> predecessor?
I don't agree. I'll give you that The Lords are weaker
than The Doors and that Rob Zombie is lyrically weaker
than Alice Cooper, but not musically weaker. Alice
Cooper made five superb albums in a row when he first
came out, but then with "Billion Dollar Babies" he
went commercial. I prefer most of the Marilyn Manson
albums to anything Alice did after that. Skinny Puppy
is far more advanced than Silver Apples.
> And also, Berlin and Missing Persons don't have a
> bloody thing to do with the United States of America...
Their connection may not be as strong as the others,
but they do have several noticable elements in common:
blonde female lead vocalists, based out of California,
heavy use of synthesizers, intense effects processing
on the instrumental solos, and edgy lyrics.
> Ministry doesn't have anything to do with the MC5...
Both Rob Tyner and Al Jourgensen write radical
anti-establishment lyrics and both bands have a very
driving aggro energy with lots of noise applications.
> ... and I can't imagine how you manage to connect
> Trent Reznor's tedious, studio-dork whining with
> the Stooges' raw power.
I take it that you've never seen Nine Inch Nails in
concert? Live the songs take on a much harder edge
than their studio versions. While Trent may play
nearly all the instruments himself during the
recording process, on tour he steps out in front of
a killer band and channels a huge dose of Iggy.
> I really don't understand how someone with as
> much musical background as you can be so avid
> about a composer as embarrassingly formulaic and
> limited as Reznor. The guy's a proven one-trick
> pony, and that's why his stock has sunk so much
> since The Downward Spiral. Quite a prescient
> title, there.
I think that "The Fragile" (1999) is an excellent
album, it's just far less commercial than its
predecessors. It's Trent's career equivalent of Miles
Davis' "Bitches Brew". This year's "With Teeth" was
disappointing to me at first, but after further
listenings, it has grown on me.
> Then there's the second problem, which is that you
> only value a certain lyrical style. Emotional impact
> is not a factor, nor humor or wit, nor personal
> confession... you're only about high-and-mighty
> artists who strive to be overtly "poetic" with an
> air of elite, academic self-consciousness.
You say that as if it were a bad thing! Heh!
> Now, take out ones who don't write in the narrow
> lyrical style which you demand. That wipes out most
> of the field, beyond *maybe* Suzanne Vega, the
> Geraldine Fibbers, Beck, Vic Chesnutt, the Fiery
> Furnaces, and Neutral Milk Hotel.
That's some kind of progress!
> Except none of those acts except maybe Vega, the
> Fibbers and the Furnaces will be of an acceptable
> *musical* style to you. From 30, immediately down
> to (maybe) three. Boom.
I already own (and like) three albums by Suzanne Vega.
I've read up on the other two now and have decided to
give these albums a try: "Blueberry Boat" (The Fiery
Furnaces, 2004) and "Lost Somewhere Between The Earth
And My Home" (The Geraldine Fibbers, 1995).
> Like I said, it's a joyless operation recommending
> stuff to you. Trying to put myself in the head of
> someone who even regards every *meal* as some
> haughty, separatist political statement really
> makes me miserable.
We took my son, X Tecumseh Clark, out to a Mexican
restaurant in Morgantown, West Virginia, for his
twenty-first birthday last night. The guacamole was
excellent.
* * * * * * * * * * * * *
TODD TAMANEND CLARK
Collector Of Noise Toys/Connoisseur Of Precolumbian Food
The Monongahela River, Turtle Island
TODD TAMANEND CLARK
>
> They were still part of what the punks were reacting
> to, which was my point. They were as much part of
> "corporate AOR bullshit" as Who's Next or whatever.
> I think Who's Next is a great album.)
I can see your point somewhat in regards to the last
three Doors studio albums, but it is pretty obvious
that the first three Doors studio albums, as well as
Morrison's on stage behaviorisms, were firmly in the
punk tradition, just intellectually elevated. Many punk
singers have acknowledged in interviews the great
degree to which they were influenced by Jim Morrison.
+ + + + + + + + + + + + +
TODD TAMANEND CLARK
Doors Aficionado & Punk Prognosticator
Somewhere south of Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania
http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/ttc4
Brett A. Pasternack
>>Brett A. Pasternack put forth the proposition:
>>
>>They were still part of what the punks were reacting
>>to, which was my point. They were as much part of
>>"corporate AOR bullshit" as Who's Next or whatever.
>>(Not that I dislike the Doors, mind you -- but, then,
>>I think Who's Next is a great album.)
>
>
> I can see your point somewhat in regards to the last
> three Doors studio albums, but it is pretty obvious
> that the first three Doors studio albums, as well as
> Morrison's on stage behaviorisms, were firmly in the
> punk tradition, just intellectually elevated. Many punk
> singers have acknowledged in interviews the great
> degree to which they were influenced by Jim Morrison.
Many punk singers have acknowledged being influenced by The Who, as
well. They were as much in "the punk tradition" (if such a thing existed
then) as The Doors were, if not more so. Although both group's
explorations of longer musical composition forms were pretty "un-punk".
TODD TAMANEND CLARK
>
> Zombie has the exact same problem as Reznor -- all
> his songs are formulaically centered around one
> pitch. The skimpy melodies and little riffs dance
> around it, but you can hold down the central note
> on an organ as a Zombie/NIN song plays and the note
> never goes dissonant. It's a boring, boring way to
> write music.
>
> Actually, come to think of it, Ministry relies on
> the same formula to a somewhat milder degree.
What exactly are you claiming here? That all of their
songs are in the key of C major (or its relative
A minor)? That they never use any sharps or flats?
If this were so, it holds a special interest to me,
in that a significant number of the pieces I compose
do the exact opposite and uses only the black keys
in order to translate an indigenous pentatonic scale
from the flute to the synthesizer. I then tune my
guitars down a half step to make playing along easier.
> It has nothing to do with being commercial or not --
> it's that Reznor does the same thing over and over
> and over. Rhymes the same words. Offers the same
> phony "misery" themes.
No, Trent really is that depressed about life.
> Records songs with the same soft-then-explode
> dynamic shape. And the aforementioned "one pitch"
> template. He's certainly a talented producer/arranger,
> but he's a washout as a composer. Which is why he
> lost his "cutting-edge tastemaker" status so quickly.
No, he lost it because he takes too long between
releasing each new studio album.
> Maybe you'd be better off rationalizing your
> inexplicable Missing Persons fandom through their
> Zappa connection.
There's nothing inexplicable about it. Terry Bozzio
is quite probably the most advanced drummer currently
walking on this planet, Warren Cuccurullo is an
extremely innovative guitarist, and their two
keyboardists are impeccable.
> It's not necessarily a bad thing. But there are
> other approaches to writing good lyrics. And when
> an artist strives to be aggressively "poetic" and
> doesn't have the talent, the results can be
> especially excruciating. Witness the Moody Blues,
> for instance.
The Moody Blues are indeed horrid lyricists!
> Can you "handle" rap? If so, you should check
> out the Disposable Heroes of Hiphoprisy's "Hypocrisy
> Is the Greatest Luxury" (1992). Certain industrial
> elements and preachy, academic lyrics.
They are guests on a William Burroughs album that I
own. I'll check out their own album.
I like a small dose of rap every now and then, as long
as it's not mysoginistic or advocating gang violence.
The rap albums that I have in my collection right now
are:
A Place Called Survival
(Natay, 1998)
Apocalypse '91: The Enemy Strikes Black
(Public Enemy, 1991)
Are You Ready For W.O.R.?
(WithOut Rezervation, 1994)
Chuck D Presents Louder Than A Bomb
[Various Artists, 1999]
Decolonize
(Aztlan Underground, 2001)
Fear Of A Black Planet
(Public Enemy, 1990)
Good Day To Die
(Litefoot, 1996)
Guilty Till Proven Innocent
(WithOut Rezervation, 1995)
It Takes A Nation Of Millions To Hold Us Back
(Public Enemy, 1988)
Muse Sick-N-Hour Message
(Public Enemy, 1994)
Once Upon A Genocide
(Julian B, 1994)
Reservation Of Education
(Robby Bee And The Boyz From The Rez, 1993)
Sub-Verses
(Aztlan Underground, 1999)
The Iceberg/Freedom Of Speech Just Watch What You Say
(Ice-T, 1989)
TNT
(Natay, 2001)
Urban Skins: Volume Two
[Various Artists, 1999]
*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*#*
TODD TAMANEND CLARK
Lyrical Freedom Fighter/Sonic Anarchist
The Monongahela River, Turtle Island
DianeE
"Mike G" <mikeg...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:mikeg24859-D085E...@newsclstr02.news.prodigy.com...
>
> Let me try again. Let's say the Beatles' "Yesterday" and (for
> instance) NIN's "Head Like a Hole" are both in the key of F.
>
> If you pull out your own keyboard/guitar and bounce a F note on
> the beat while playing the NIN song, it will never sound dissonant
> or clash with the music. The music is *written* to be centered
> around that one note (I think I once saw this harmonic device
> called an "internal pedal," but I may be wrong). But...if you try
> to bounce the F with "Yesterday," the note immediately goes sour
> with just the second and third chords. Because it's a more
> sophisticated piece of music.
>
> To restate it a simpler way, an incredible number of NIN songs are
> basically two-chord blues songs which just switch between open
> tonic and subdominant chords (or "I" and "IV"). The verses of his
> songs are practically interchangeable, because so many of them are
> similar one-chord riffs with the same sort of rote,
> minimal-notespan melody flicked on top. Even his greatest (in my
> opinion) song "Hurt" does this, though the chorus adds slightly
> more melodic wrinkle than usual.
>
> Zombie is the same way. The music never modulates from the tonic
> note. It's why everything he does sounds so damn "droney."
>
> Dull, dull, dull.
-----------
But you like Lou Reed, don't you? And he certainly does the same thing much
of the time.
DianeE
Jason Michael
> "DianeE" <Tired...@SorryFolks.com> wrote:
>
>> But you like Lou Reed, don't you? And he certainly does the same thing
>> much
>> of the time.
>
> thing I'm complaining about in NIN and Rob/White Zombie.
And he's far more gifted as a lyricist as well.
Jason
jasonmichael NOSPAM @ REMOVE canada.com
Jason Michael
> "Jason Michael" <jwmi...@sympatico.ca> wrote:
>
>> >> But you like Lou Reed, don't you? And he certainly does the same
>> >> thing
>> >> much of the time.
>> >
>> > And that's definitely a minus. But he doesn't do the specific
>> > thing I'm complaining about in NIN and Rob/White Zombie.
>>
>> And he's far more gifted as a lyricist as well.
>
>
Not around here! :-)
> Seems like the tide turned against Reznor, around the time people
> started making wisecracks about how many words he rhymes with
> "decay." ;)
lol
blanny
> "TODD TAMANEND CLARK" <tama...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> If you pull out your own keyboard/guitar and bounce a F note on
> the beat while playing the NIN song, it will never sound dissonant
> or clash with the music. The music is *written* to be centered
> around that one note (I think I once saw this harmonic device
> called an "internal pedal," but I may be wrong). But...if you try
> to bounce the F with "Yesterday," the note immediately goes sour
> with just the second and third chords. Because it's a more
> sophisticated piece of music.
>
> To restate it a simpler way, an incredible number of NIN songs are
> basically two-chord blues songs which just switch between open
> tonic and subdominant chords (or "I" and "IV"). The verses of his
> songs are practically interchangeable, because so many of them are
> similar one-chord riffs with the same sort of rote,
> minimal-notespan melody flicked on top. Even his greatest (in my
> opinion) song "Hurt" does this, though the chorus adds slightly
> more melodic wrinkle than usual.
>
> Zombie is the same way. The music never modulates from the tonic
> note. It's why everything he does sounds so damn "droney."
I'm not sure why you think "drone" music is bad. Plenty of great music is in
that vein. Terry Riley (classical) most famous song is named "In C". It lasts
about 45 minutes and, you guessed, the entire song is based on the C chord and
never veers. Terry's influence is pervasive in prog/avant-garde type of
artists, from Zappa, Velvet Underground (Reed & Cale), to Krautrock (Can, Faust,
Tangerine Dream, etc. all feature drone-type music) to Zeuhl (Magma). Modal
jazz was an attempt to simplify fast chord changes in favor of improvising over
"simple" chords.
I'm not defending NIN, but there's plenty of great music that doesn't depend on
the Beatles model of melody w/chord changes.
TODD TAMANEND CLARK
> left hand, "Mike G" used his right hand to type:
>
> Ack. I figured you would understand what I mean.
>
> Let me try again. Let's say the Beatles' "Yesterday"
> and (for instance) NIN's "Head Like a Hole" are both
> in the key of F.
>
> a F note on the beat while playing the NIN song, it
> will never sound dissonant or clash with the music.
What constitutes dissonance is highly subjective
throughout various cultures and centuries, but okay
I'll play along.
> The music is *written* to be centered around that
> one note...
Like much modal jazz.
> (I think I once saw this harmonic device called an
> "internal pedal," but I may be wrong).
Some possibly relevant definitions from Wikipedia:
"Pedal point (also pedal tone, organ point, or just
pedal) is a musical term describing any sustained or
repeated note, usually in the bass, with changing
harmonies in the other voices. The technique is
often found near the end of a fugue or other
polyphonic composition. Usually a pedal point is
either the tonic or the dominant note, typically with
some of the harmonies played above the pedal being
dissonant with the pedal note. The pedal tone is
considered a chord tone in the original harmony, then
a nonchord tone during the intervening dissonant
harmonies, and then a chord tone again when the
harmony resolves. A dissonant pedal point may go
against all harmonies present during its duration,
being almost more like an added tone than a nonchord
tone, or pedal points may serve as atonal pitch
centers.
The term comes from the organ for its ability to
sustain a note indefinitely and the tendency for such
notes to be played on a pedal division.
A double pedal is two pedal tones played
simultaneously.
An inverted pedal is a pedal that is not in the bass
(and often is the highest part.) Mozart included
numerous inverted pedals in his works, particularly
in the solo parts of his concertos.
An internal pedal is a pedal that is similar to the
inverted pedal, except that it is played in the
middle register between the bass and the upper voices.
Pedal points are somewhat problematic on the
harpsichord or piano, which have only a limited
sustain capability. Often the pedal note is simply
repeated at intervals. A pedal tone can also be
realized with a trill; this is particularly common
with inverted pedals.
A drone differs from a pedal point in degree or
quality. A pedal point may be a nonchord tone and
thus required to resolve, unlike a drone, or a pedal
point may simply be a shorter drone, a drone being a
longer pedal point."
> But if you try to bounce the F with "Yesterday," the
> note immediately goes sour with just the second and
> third chords. Because it's a more sophisticated
> piece of music.
"Yesterday" is utter sentimental dreck. If you want
to hear a Beatle song with sophisticated harmonic
progressions try "I Am The Walrus". But here is the
crux of the matter: "I Am The Walrus" uses a whopping
(for rock) twelve chords to make its statement while
"Tomorrow Never Knows" uses but one, yet both are
excellent compositions. It's all in what the composer
and the musicians do with the finished product that
counts far more than merely counting chords.
> To restate it a simpler way, an incredible number
> of NIN songs are basically two-chord blues songs
> which just switch between open tonic and subdominant
> chords (or "I" and "IV"). The verses of his
> songs are practically interchangeable, because so
> many of them are similar one-chord riffs with the
> same sort of rote, minimal-notespan melody flicked
> on top.
A trick that Trent Reznor picked up from Al Jourgensen
is to use two chords in a heavy pummeling rhythm
structure that conveys the environmental destruction
of the modern world by industrial machinery. In other
words, to use the transgressor's own sound pollution
as a sonic palette that critiques the transgressor's
own negative behavior.
> Even his greatest (in my opinion) song "Hurt" does
> this, though the chorus adds slightly more melodic
> wrinkle than usual.
As of today, my favorite Nine Inch Nails songs are:
01. Head Like A Hole
02. Hurt
03. Closer
04. The Perfect Drug
05. Sunspots
06. Wish
07. A Warm Place
08. Terrible Lie
09. The Wretched
10. The Fragile
11. The Great Below
12. Ripe With Decay
13. The Hand That Feeds
> Zombie is the same way. The music never modulates
> from the tonic note. It's why everything he does
> sounds so damn "droney."
>
> Dull, dull, dull.
Now, Rob Zombie is someone who really needs to work
on his lyrics, but his solo post-White Zombie music
takes no prisoners.
> > > It has nothing to do with being commercial or
> > > not -- it's that Reznor does the same thing
> > > over and over and over. Rhymes the same words.
> > > Offers the same phony "misery" themes.
> >
> > No, Trent really is that depressed about life.
>
> If he was a lyricist with talent, his lyrics would
> contain some sense of personal life experience,
> rather than just vague, adolescent "Life is shit/
> I hurt/You hurt me" banalities. But that's all he
> can manage.
I agree that Trent is not a supreme lyricist on a par
with Dylan, Morrison, Cohen, Slick, Reed, or Smith,
but he is still far better than you're giving him
credit for. Some of his overuse of pronouns is simply
an element of postmodern cyberpunk style that is also
evident in the poetry of Nivek Ogre from Skinny Puppy.
Over on allmusic.com, Steve Huey writes:
"Unlike the vast majority of industrial artists,
Reznor wrote melodic, traditionally structured songs
where lyrics were a focal point. His pop instincts
not only made the harsh electronic beats of industrial
music easier to digest, but also put a human face on a
style that usually tried to sound as mechanical as
possible."
Which is the exact opposite of what you are claiming.
~ ~ ~ ~
TODD TAMANEND CLARK
Poet-Lyricist/Composer/Electronic Musician
Southwestern Pennsylvania
http://rateyourmusic.com/view_albums/artist_id_is_25350