Great Singles Final Vote - Rec.1950s Hall of Fame
Bob Roman
Singles Wing for the Rec.Music.Rock-Pop-R&B.1970s Hall of Fame.
The following 47 singles received at least three nominations:
Anarchy In the U.K. - The Sex Pistols
Baker Street - Gerry Rafferty
Band of Gold - Freda Payne
Bohemian Rhapsody - Queen
Born to Run - Bruce Springsteen
Bridge Over Troubled Water - Simon and Garfunkel
Brown Sugar - The Rolling Stones
Drift Away - Dobie Gray
Family Affair - Sly & Family Stone
Fire and Rain - James Taylor
Get Up (I Feel Like Being A) Sex Machine - James Brown
Hello It's Me - Todd Rundgren
I'll Take You There - Staple Singers
Imagine - John Lennon
Instant Karma - John Lennon
It's Too Late - Carole King
Just My Imagination - Temptations
Layla - Derek & The Dominos
Let's Stay Together - Al Green
Lola - The Kinks
Love Train - O'Jays
Maggie May - Rod Stewart
Midnight Train to Georgia - Gladys Knight & the Pips
No Matter What - Badfinger
No Woman No Cry - Bob Marley & the Wailers
Papa Was a Rollin' Stone - The Temptations
Rappers Delight - Sugarhill Gang
Rebel Rebel - Bowie
Rich Girl - Daryl Hall & John Oates
Roundabout - Yes
Sheena Is A Punk Rocker - The Ramones
Smoke On The Water - Deep Purple
Superstition - Stevie Wonder
Sweet Home Alabama - Lynyrd Skynyrd
Tell Me Something Good - Rufus
Thank You (Falettinme Be Mice Elf Agin) - Sly & the Family Stone
That Lady - The Isley Brothers
Theme From "Shaft" – Isaac Hayes
Walk On The Wild Side - Lou Reed
We're An American Band - Grand Funk
Werewolves of London - Warren Zevon
What's Going On - Marvin Gaye
Who'll Stop the Rain - Creedence Clearwater Revival
Wild Horses - The Rolling Stones
Wild World - Cat Stevens
You Ain't Seen Nothing Yet - BTO
Your Song - Elton John
Now is time for your final votes. Please submit a list of up to 25
titles from the list above that you feel were the greatest
contributions to 1970s music.
In voting you can follow one of two approaches:
1) Unranked - You can submit names of *up to* 25 nominees, unranked
and in no particular order. If voting for less than 25 nominees, your
choices cannot be ranked
2) Ranked - You can submit names of exactly 25 nominees, *numbered and
in order*. Your votes will weighted by order and there will be added
point value for being top 10, top 5, or #1 choices.
Unranked votes will be weighted by a constant amount, matching the
average weight of the ranked approach.
You can post your votes here, but please also send the list to me so
you can be sure I will see it.
Any votes received by midnight the night of Friday, January 9 will be
counted. Everyone is welcome to vote.
The results will be announced January 10.
(Note: After this year we may induct fewer than 25 singles per year.
This first year I followed the default traditions of the rec.60s and
rec.50s groups.)
Thanks.
Bob Roman
Greg Ioannou
"Bob Roman" <robert...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:288f4c2c.04010...@posting.google.com...
1. Bridge Over Troubled Water - Simon and Garfunkel
2. Lola - The Kinks
3. Roundabout - Yes
4. Bohemian Rhapsody - Queen
5. Baker Street - Gerry Rafferty
6. Smoke On The Water - Deep Purple
7. Layla - Derek & The Dominos
8. Maggie May - Rod Stewart
9. Who'll Stop the Rain - Creedence Clearwater Revival
10. Fire and Rain - James Taylor
11. No Matter What - Badfinger
12. Anarchy In the U.K. - The Sex Pistols
13. Imagine - John Lennon
14. Your Song - Elton John
15. Wild World - Cat Stevens
16. We're An American Band - Grand Funk
17. Hello It's Me - Todd Rundgren
18. It's Too Late - Carole King
19. You Ain't Seen Nothing Yet - BTO
20. Drift Away - Dobie Gray
21. Rebel Rebel - Bowie
22. Instant Karma - John Lennon
23. Sheena Is A Punk Rocker - The Ramones
24. No Woman No Cry - Bob Marley & the Wailers
25. Sweet Home Alabama - Lynyrd Skynyrd
Cheers
Greg
Len Blanks
Baker Street - Gerry Rafferty
Layla - Derek & The Dominos
Let's Stay Together - Al Green
Lola - The Kinks
Sheena Is A Punk Rocker - The Ramones
Smoke On The Water - Deep Purple
Tell Me Something Good - Rufus
Thank You (Falettinme Be Mice Elf Agin) - Sly & the Family Stone
--
Len
The Feynman problem-solving Algorithm:
1) Write down the problem
2) Think real hard
3) Write down the answer -- Murray Gell-Mann in the NY Times
the Petter the Better
Anarchy In the U.K. - The Sex Pistols
Bohemian Rhapsody - Queen
Born to Run - Bruce Springsteen
Bridge Over Troubled Water - Simon and Garfunkel
Brown Sugar - The Rolling Stones
Get Up (I Feel Like Being A) Sex Machine - James Brown
I'll Take You There - Staple Singers
Imagine - John Lennon
Lola - The Kinks
No Matter What - Badfinger
No Woman No Cry - Bob Marley & the Wailers
Papa Was a Rollin' Stone - The Temptations
Rappers Delight - Sugarhill Gang
Rebel Rebel - Bowie
Sheena Is A Punk Rocker - The Ramones
Smoke On The Water - Deep Purple
Superstition - Stevie Wonder
Sweet Home Alabama - Lynyrd Skynyrd
Theme From "Shaft" - Isaac Hayes
Walk On The Wild Side - Lou Reed
What's Going On - Marvin Gaye
Who'll Stop the Rain - Creedence Clearwater Revival
DianeE
hate disco*, it is absurd to have a 1970s hall of *fame* with no disco
records in it. DianeE
1> What's Going On - Marvin Gaye
2> Sweet Home Alabama - Lynyrd Skynyrd
3> Rappers Delight - Sugarhill Gang
4> I'll Take You There - Staple Singers
5> Walk On The Wild Side - Lou Reed
6> No Woman No Cry - Bob Marley & the Wailers
7> Just My Imagination - Temptations
8> Let's Stay Together - Al Green
9> Born to Run - Bruce Springsteen
10> Get Up (I Feel Like Being A) Sex Machine - James Brown
11> Superstition - Stevie Wonder
12> Anarchy In the U.K. - The Sex Pistols
13> Instant Karma - John Lennon
14> Rich Girl - Daryl Hall & John Oates
15> Tell Me Something Good - Rufus
16> Theme From "Shaft" - Isaac Hayes
17> Who'll Stop the Rain - Creedence Clearwater Revival
18> Bridge Over Troubled Water - Simon and Garfunkel
19> Maggie May - Rod Stewart
20> Lola - The Kinks
21> Midnight Train to Georgia - Gladys Knight & the Pips
22> Love Train - O'Jays
23> Brown Sugar - The Rolling Stones
24> You Ain't Seen Nothing Yet - BTO
25> No Matter What - Badfinger
Greg Ioannou
"DianeE" <Tired...@SorryFolks.com> wrote in message
news:hRGJb.590898$0v4.23...@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
> Here are my votes in order. I have to comment, though, that *even though
I
> hate disco*, it is absurd to have a 1970s hall of *fame* with no disco
> records in it. DianeE
Why not? Is the 50s Hall full of the sappy pop singles that were so
prevalent at the time? Is the 60s HAll full of those lame sountracks from
movie musicals that won boatloads of Grammies at the time? We are
remembering the music that had longer-lasting appeal.
Disco was formulaic garbage. I partly paid my way through university selling
"I Hate Disco" t-shirts -- which is about the only way disco played any role
in my life at the time. It deserves vilification, not honour.
Greg
PRowan9262
>"I Hate Disco" t-shirts -- which is about the only way disco played any role
>in my life at the time. It deserves vilification, not honour.
It got me laid, baby!!!
You can take your five-finger villification elswhere, Greggy!!!
I'll honour it!!!!!
Formulaic Garbage has never been so efficacious, baby!!!!
Dennis C from Tennessee
SavoyBG
>K.C. and his hideous Sunshine Band.
They made a couple of good records IMO.
MY LISTS - http://hometown.aol.com/savoybg/myhomepage/index.html
SURVEYS - http://hometown.aol.com/savoybg1/myhomepage/index.html
SavoyBG
>Born to Run - Bruce Springsteen
>Bridge Over Troubled Water - Simon and Garfunkel
>Brown Sugar - The Rolling Stones
>Drift Away - Dobie Gray
>Family Affair - Sly & Family Stone
>Get Up (I Feel Like Being A) Sex Machine - James Brown
>I'll Take You There - Staple Singers
>Instant Karma - John Lennon
>It's Too Late - Carole King
>Just My Imagination - Temptations
>Layla - Derek & The Dominos
>Let's Stay Together - Al Green
>Love Train - O'Jays
>Maggie May - Rod Stewart
>Midnight Train to Georgia - Gladys Knight & the Pips
>No Matter What - Badfinger
>Rappers Delight - Sugarhill Gang
>Rebel Rebel - Bowie
>Roundabout - Yes
>Sheena Is A Punk Rocker - The Ramones
>Tell Me Something Good - Rufus
>Thank You (Falettinme Be Mice Elf Agin) - Sly & the Family Stone
>What's Going On - Marvin Gaye
>Who'll Stop the Rain - Creedence Clearwater Revival
>You Ain't Seen Nothing Yet - BTO
SavoyBG
>Maybe, but "Shake Your Booty," "I'm Your Boogie Man, That's What I Am," and
>the remake of "Yes I'm Ready" aren't among them. Ugh!!!!!
I would agree with those choices as some of the un-good ones.
Greg Ioannou
"SavoyBG" <sav...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040103192707...@mb-m12.aol.com...
> My votes...unranked...
>
> >Born to Run - Bruce Springsteen
> >Bridge Over Troubled Water - Simon and Garfunkel
> >Brown Sugar - The Rolling Stones
No wonder you are so fond of 50s music -- you lived a very different 1950s
from the rest of us!
Greg
Seeno99
2. Bridge Over Troubled Water
3. Maggie May
4. Rapper's Delight
5. Born To Run
6. Fire & Rain
7. Brown Sugar
8. It's Too Late
9. Layla
10. Sweet Home Alabama
11. Let's Stay Together
12. Superstition
13. Who'll Stop The Rain
14. Your Song
15. Anarchy In the UK
16. Bohemian Rhapsody
17. Sex Machine
18. No Woman No Crt
19. Papa Was A Rollin' Stone
20. Roundabout
21. Thank You
22. You Ain't Seen Nothing Yet
23. Theme From Shaft
24. Love Train
25. Midnight Train To Georgia
Tom Lane
SavoyBG
changed it.
Todd Lucas
Anarchy In the U.K. - The Sex Pistols
Band of Gold - Freda Payne
Brown Sugar - The Rolling Stones
Family Affair - Sly & Family Stone
Get Up (I Feel Like Being A) Sex Machine - James Brown
Hello It's Me - Todd Rundgren
I'll Take You There - Staple Singers
Just My Imagination - Temptations
Let's Stay Together - Al Green
Love Train - O'Jays
Midnight Train to Georgia - Gladys Knight & the Pips
No Matter What - Badfinger
Papa Was a Rollin' Stone - The Temptations Rebel Rebel - Bowie
Sheena Is A Punk Rocker - The Ramones
Superstition - Stevie Wonder
Tell Me Something Good - Rufus
Thank You (Falettinme Be Mice Elf Agin) - Sly & the Family Stone
That Lady - The Isley Brothers
Theme From "Shaft" – Isaac Hayes
What's Going On - Marvin Gaye
Who'll Stop the Rain - Creedence Clearwater Revival
Wild Horses - The Rolling Stones
You Ain't Seen Nothing Yet - BTO
Todd
Kent
> (Note: After this year we may induct fewer than 25 singles per year.
> This first year I followed the default traditions of the rec.60s and
> rec.50s groups.)
Including calling the thread "1950s Hall of Fame"... :-)
Kent
Kent
> Baker Street - Gerry Rafferty
> Bohemian Rhapsody - Queen
> Born to Run - Bruce Springsteen
> Bridge Over Troubled Water - Simon and Garfunkel
> Drift Away - Dobie Gray
> Fire and Rain - James Taylor
> Imagine - John Lennon
> It's Too Late - Carole King
> Lola - The Kinks
> Love Train - O'Jays
> Maggie May - Rod Stewart
> Midnight Train to Georgia - Gladys Knight & the Pips
> Rapper's Delight - Sugarhill Gang
> Roundabout - Yes
> Superstition - Stevie Wonder
> We're An American Band - Grand Funk
> Your Song - Elton John
KentP
Phaeton
> Anarchy In the U.K. - The Sex Pistols
> Baker Street - Gerry Rafferty
> Born to Run - Bruce Springsteen
> Bridge Over Troubled Water - Simon and Garfunkel
> Brown Sugar - The Rolling Stones
> Layla - Derek & The Dominos
> Maggie May - Rod Stewart
> Smoke On The Water - Deep Purple
> Werewolves of London - Warren Zevon
> Wild Horses - The Rolling Stones
Cheers, Csaba
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
CSABA I. HARANGOZO |d|i|g|i|t|a|l| csabah(at)zipworld(dot)com(dot)au
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
EARTH::AUSTRALIA:[SYDNEY]HARANGOZO.CSABA;1, delete? [N]:
Bove's Theorem :
The remaining work to finish in order to reach your goal increases as
the deadline approaches.
Bob Roman
> Bob obviously made a mistake with the subject titlt (1950s) so I've just
> changed it.
Cut-and-paste will kill you every time
Bob Roman
PhillyGuy
1. Let's Stay Together - Al Green (most weight)
2. Brown Sugar - The Rolling Stones (next most weight)
3. Layla - Derek & The Dominos (and so on)
4. It's Too Late - Carole King
5. Bridge Over Troubled Water - Simon and Garfunkel
6. Maggie May - Rod Stewart
7. Lola - The Kinks
8. What's Going On - Marvin Gaye
9. Sweet Home Alabama - Lynyrd Skynyrd
10. Your Song - Elton John
11. Walk On The Wild Side - Lou Reed
12. Werewolves of London - Warren Zevon
13. Instant Karma - John Lennon
14. Fire and Rain - James Taylor
15. Wild World - Cat Stevens
16. Rebel Rebel - Bowie
17. Love Train - O'Jays
18. Get Up (I Feel Like Being A) Sex Machine - James Brown
19. Hello It's Me - Todd Rundgren
20. Tell Me Something Good - Rufus
21. You Ain't Seen Nothing Yet - BTO
22. We're An American Band - Grand Funk Railroad
23. Wild Horses - The Rolling Stones (Mick's valentine to Marianne Faithful)
24. Midnight Train to Georgia - Gladys Knight & the Pips
25. No Matter What - Badfinger
Tom Blumenthal
Todd Tamanend Clark
> A week ago I asked people to submit new nominations for the Great
> Singles Wing for the Rec.Music.Rock-Pop-R&B.1970s Hall of Fame.
[SNIP MASTER LIST.]
> Now is time for your final votes. Please submit a list of up to
> 25 titles from the list above that you feel were the greatest
> contributions to 1970s music.
Unranked, my votes are:
Born To Run - Bruce Springsteen
Imagine - John Lennon
Instant Karma - John Lennon
No Woman No Cry - Bob Marley And The Wailers
Sheena Is A Punk Rocker - The Ramones
Superstition - Stevie Wonder
Theme From Shaft - Isaac Hayes
Walk On The Wild Side - Lou Reed
We're An American Band - Grand Funk Railroad
Who'll Stop the Rain - Creedence Clearwater Revival
- - - -
TODD TAMANEND CLARK
Poet/Composer/Multi-Instrumentalist/Cultural Historian
The Monongahela River, Turtle Island
- -
Now Available:
Staff, Mask, Rattle (2-CD: Instrumental)
http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/ttc2
andy749
Gerry Rafferty - Baker Street
Rolling Stones - Brown Sugar
Sly & Family Stone - Family Affair
James Taylor - Fire & Rain
Todd Rundgren - Hello It's Me
John Lennon - Instant Karma
Carole King - It's Too Late
Temptations - Just My Imagination
Derek & Dominos - Layla
Al Green - Let's Stay Together
O Jays - Love Train
Badfinger - No Matter What
Temptations - Papa Was a Rolling Stone
David Bowie - Rebel Rebel
Deep Purple - Smoke On The Water
Stevie Wonder - Superstition
Rufus - Tell Me Something Good
Isley Bros. - That Lady
Isaac Hayes - Shaft
Lou Reed - Walk On The Wild Side
Grand Funk - We're An American Band
Warren Zevon - Werewolves of London
Marvin Gaye - What's Going On
BTO - You Ain't Seen Nothing Yet
Elton John - Your Song
JGM
>Born to Run - Bruce Springsteen
>Bridge Over Troubled Water - Simon and Garfunkel
>Brown Sugar - The Rolling Stones
>Drift Away - Dobie Gray
>Fire and Rain - James Taylor
>Imagine - John Lennon
>Let's Stay Together - Al Green
>Lola - The Kinks
>Love Train - O'Jays
>Maggie May - Rod Stewart
>Midnight Train to Georgia - Gladys Knight & the Pips
>No Matter What - Badfinger
>No Woman No Cry - Bob Marley & the Wailers
>Papa Was a Rollin' Stone - The Temptations
>Smoke On The Water - Deep Purple
>Superstition - Stevie Wonder
>Thank You (Falettinme Be Mice Elf Agin) - Sly & the Family Stone
>Theme From "Shaft" – Isaac Hayes
LRossi3940
2. Smoke On The Water - Deep Purple
3. Roundabout - Yes
4. Born to Run - Bruce Springsteen
5. Layla - Derek & The Dominos
6. Brown Sugar - The Rolling Stones
7. Imagine - John Lennon
8. Lola - The Kinks
9. Maggie May - Rod Stewart
10. Who'll Stop the Rain - Creedence Clearwater Revival
11. No Woman No Cry - Bob Marley & the Wailers
12. Rebel Rebel - Bowie
13. Wild Horses - The Rolling Stones
14. Superstition - Stevie Wonder
15. Fire and Rain - James Taylor
16. Thank You - Sly & the Family Stone
17. Wild World - Cat Stevens
18. Let's Stay Together - Al Green
19. Instant Karma - John Lennon
20. No Matter What - Badfinger
21. Drift Away - Dobie Gray
22. We're An American Band - Grand Funk
23. You Ain't Seen Nothing Yet - BTO
24. Papa Was a Rollin' Stone - The Temptations
25. Your Song - Elton John
Peace
JL
1. I'll Take You There - Staple Singers
2. Imagine - John Lennon
3. Walk On The Wild Side - Lou Reed
4. Let's Stay Together - Al Green
5. Theme From "Shaft" - Isaac Hayes
6. Rebel Rebel - Bowie
7. What's Going On - Marvin Gaye
8. Family Affair - Sly & Family Stone
9. Anarchy In the U.K. - The Sex Pistols
10. Sheena Is A Punk Rocker - The Ramones
11. Band of Gold - Freda Payne
12. Layla - Derek & The Dominos
13. It's Too Late - Carole King
14. Wild Horses - The Rolling Stones
15. Hello It's Me - Todd Rundgren
16. Lola - The Kinks
17. Instant Karma - John Lennon
18. Wild World - Cat Stevens
19. No Woman No Cry - Bob Marley & the Wailers
20. That Lady - The Isley Brothers
21. Get Up (I Feel Like Being A) Sex Machine - James Brown
22. Superstition - Stevie Wonder
23. Papa Was a Rollin' Stone - The Temptations
24. Werewolves of London - Warren Zevon
25. Brown Sugar - The Rolling Stones
I really think the group could've come up with better nominees.
Julio
now playing: Cherry Vanilla - The Punk (RCA Victor '78)
SavoyBG
>I really think the group could've come up with better nominees.
Let's see what you nominated...
First of all you said....
Bob,
Didn't give it too much thought but here are some memorable ones I came up
with:
So if you're gonna criticize the list of nominees, maybe you ought to do your
part and give it some more thought yourself before you make your nominations!!!
Anyway, you nominated...
A Nickel And A Nail - O.V. Wright (Back Beat)
Very good soul record, but not a charter member of a hall of fame that
encompasses rock, pop & soul for the entire decade.
Jeepster - T. Rex
Good one, but unlikely that it would have a chance to get in the first year,
especially when it's not even the most significant single by this artist.
Scorpio - Dennis Coffey and The Detroit Guitar Band (Sussex)
I'll be shocked if this ever gets in. Pretty good instrumental, might be my
favorite of 1971 possibly, but hall of fame....I can't see it.
Max's Kansas City 1976 - Wayne County & The Back Street Boys (Ram)
Perhaps I'm showing my ignorance here, but I have no idea what this is, and I'm
sure that you must have realized that you were wasting a vote on this.
The Tears Of A Clown - Smokey Robinson & the Miracles (Tamla)
Something I might have nominated, but since I have it in 1967 when it was first
released on the album, I didn't think about it as a possible single to nominate
here.
I Don't Like Mondays - The Boomtown Rats (CBS)
I preferred "Up All Night."
I thought that the voters did a good job of nominating a nice cross section of
pop, rock & soul for this first time around.
Several groundbreaking records were nominated in different genres......
(Punk)
Anarchy In the U.K. - The Sex Pistols
(Whatever you would term this?)
Bohemian Rhapsody - Queen
(Funk-Disco)
Get Up (I Feel Like Being A) Sex Machine - James Brown
(Power Pop)
No Matter What - Badfinger
(Rap)
Rappers Delight - Sugarhill Gang
(Glitter Rock?)
Rebel Rebel - Bowie
(Punk-New Wave)
Sheena Is A Punk Rocker - The Ramones
(Heavy Metal)
Smoke On The Water - Deep Purple
(Funk)
Tell Me Something Good - Rufus
Thank You (Falettinme Be Mice Elf Agin) - Sly & the Family Stone
Progressive R & B
Theme From "Shaft" – Isaac Hayes
What's Going On - Marvin Gaye
The only nominations that surprised me at all were...
Baker Street - Gerry Rafferty
Hello It's Me - Todd Rundgren
Rich Girl - Daryl Hall & John Oates
Wild Horses - The Rolling Stones
Not that any of these are bad, I just didn't realize that any of them were held
in high enough regard to get nominated the first year out. I'll be very
surprised if any of these four gets inducted this year.
Some things that I was surprised at NOT getting nominated...
Let's Get It On - Marvin Gaye
Heart Of Gold - Neil Young
Heart Of Glass - Blondie
Another Brick In The Wall - Pink Floyd
London Calling - Clash
Greg Ioannou
> >From: "JL"
> Jeepster - T. Rex
>
> Good one, but unlikely that it would have a chance to get in the first
year,
> especially when it's not even the most significant single by this artist.
Agreed. I think Hot Love and Get It On are much stronger.
> Max's Kansas City 1976 - Wayne County & The Back Street Boys (Ram)
>
> Perhaps I'm showing my ignorance here, but I have no idea what this is,
and I'm
> sure that you must have realized that you were wasting a vote on this.
> I Don't Like Mondays - The Boomtown Rats (CBS)
>
> I preferred "Up All Night."
Yes, but this is their best-known track. It was the one to go with.
> (Whatever you would term this?)
> Bohemian Rhapsody - Queen
Usually called art rock. Not the best thing in the genre, but definitely the
best known.
> Baker Street - Gerry Rafferty
> Hello It's Me - Todd Rundgren
Two of the best singles of the decade, even if they don't fall into
categories.
> Rich Girl - Daryl Hall & John Oates
> Wild Horses - The Rolling Stones
And two that are total shit
Greg
JL
"SavoyBG" <sav...@aol.com> wrote
>Max's Kansas City 1976 - Wayne County & The Back >Street Boys (Ram)
>Perhaps I'm showing my ignorance here, but I have no idea what this is, and
I'm sure that you must have realized that you were wasting a vote on this.
Is this the same "Bruce" that nominated, and may I say rightfully so,
Charlie Feathers - One Hand Loose (King)?
Julio
SavoyBG
>I can't *stand* Todd "Boys Get Anorexia Too!" Rundgren.
I don't know, I think he's a genius, from the beginnings of Nazz, to his own
records, to his production efforts on things like "We're An American Band" and
the "Bat Out Of Hell" album by Meat Loaf.
SavoyBG
>I can't *stand* Todd "Boys Get Anorexia Too!" Rundgren.
Typical female, she likes or dislikes music because of the way the singer
"looks."
SavoyBG
>Is this the same "Bruce" that nominated, and may I say rightfully so,
>Charlie Feathers - One Hand Loose (King)?
>
Yes, and it got nominated, and judging from the ballots I've seen it will
probably get in this year.
The Wayne County thing, whatever it is, is certainly not in the league of "One
Hand Loose" even in its own genre. I've never seen it mentioned anywhere,
including in this group, while "One Hand Loose" is regularly mentioned as one
of the greatest rockabilly records ever recorded.
GBlueOwl
(SavoyBG) writes:
>>From: "JL"
>
>>Is this the same "Bruce" that nominated, and may I say rightfully so,
>>Charlie Feathers - One Hand Loose (King)?
>>
>
>Yes, and it got nominated, and judging from the ballots I've seen it will
>probably get in this year.
>
>The Wayne County thing, whatever it is, is certainly not in the league of
>"One
>Hand Loose" even in its own genre. I've never seen it mentioned anywhere,
>including in this group, while "One Hand Loose" is regularly mentioned as one
>of the greatest rockabilly records ever recorded.
>
>
So, I'm confused. Did you, Bruce Grossberg, nominate "Max's Kansas City 1976"
by Wayne County & The Backstreet Boys or not? Your "Yes" indicates you did,
but then you seem to claim ignorance as to what exactly "The Wayne County
thing" is. Why would you nominate a song you don't seem to be familiar with?
FWIW, I know "Max's Kansas City 1976" from it's inclusion on an old compilation
of 70's New York Punk music from Rhino called "Blank Generation: The New York
Scene". According to the liner notes, the track was taken from an obscure
album of live performances from Max's Kansas City, the most significant New
York venue for "Punk" acts in the 70's after CBGB's. The song itself is a
pleasant enough ditty, I guess, but hardly Hall Of Fame material. It's
basically an excuse for Mr./Ms. County to name check pretty much every group in
the New York "Punk" scene, from the legendary to the long-forgotten, so it does
kind of nicely evoke the musical world the Rhino compilation covers.
Brian
SavoyBG
>So, I'm confused. Did you, Bruce Grossberg, nominate "Max's Kansas City
>1976"
>by Wayne County & The Backstreet Boys or not? Your "Yes" indicates you did,
No, My yes meant that I nominated "One Hand Loose" by Charlie Feathers (in the
50s group).
> According to the liner notes, the track was taken from an obscure
>album of live performances from Max's Kansas City, the most significant New
>York venue for "Punk" acts in the 70's after CBGB's.
Was it ever on a single?
If not, then Julio's nomination of it was invalid in the first place.
JL
Julio
JL
"GBlueOwl" <gblu...@aol.com> wrote in message >
FWIW, I know "Max's Kansas City 1976" from it's inclusion on an old
compilation
> of 70's New York Punk music from Rhino called "Blank Generation: The New
York
> Scene". According to the liner notes, the track was taken from an obscure
> album of live performances from Max's Kansas City, the most significant
New
> York venue for "Punk" acts in the 70's after CBGB's. >
Brian
The Album was a compilation of singles that were released by artists that
frequently performed at Max's. There are no Live tracks on the album they
are all studio performances. Most of the tracks were excellent examples of
the the Pre-77 punk scene in NYC! Don't know where you have gotten your
mis-information from. If Rhino reported this, they don't know what they're
talking about.
Julio
JL
compilation
> of 70's New York Punk music from Rhino called "Blank Generation: The New
York
> Scene". According to the liner notes, the track was taken from an obscure
> album of live performances from Max's Kansas City, the most significant
New
> York venue for "Punk" acts in the 70's after CBGB's. The song itself is a
> pleasant enough ditty, I guess, but hardly Hall Of Fame material. It's
> basically an excuse for Mr./Ms. County to name check pretty much every
group in
> the New York "Punk" scene, from the legendary to the long-forgotten, so it
does
> kind of nicely evoke the musical world the Rhino compilation covers.
>
> Brian
Just got ahold of the liner notes to the Rhino compilation, that you've made
reference to, and nowhere on it does it state what you described! However,
it does include an advertisement for the Wayne County and the Back Street
Boys single, it cost $2.00 at the time.
Julio
now playing: Sex Pistols - Liar (Virgin/Warner Bros '77)
GBlueOwl
<jlauciri...@nyc.nospamrr.com> writes:
I don't have the Rhino album with me here and I was going on memory. Thinking
about it further, I believe I had the Max's Kansas City compilation the Rhino
liner notes mention confused with a second compilation album of live tracks
that the notes also mentions and from which Rhino picked a song or two for
their compilation (in particular I believe a live "Let Me Dream If I Want To"
by Mink Deville)
Brian
Todd Tamanend Clark
> The Wayne County thing, whatever it is, is certainly not in the
> league of "One Hand Loose" even in its own genre. I've never
> seen it mentioned anywhere, including in this group, while "One
> Hand Loose" is regularly mentioned as one of the greatest
> rockabilly records ever recorded.
In posts gone by, you have justified your love of 1960s bubblegum
music by citing its influence on 1970s punk rock, yet here again
you admit to never having heard the music of a well-known figure
in the New York punk scene which flourished not far from your
home state of New Jersey. (This time it is Wayne/Jane County;
previously it was Richard Hell and Television.) You have also
said that you only like one song by Patti Smith, who in my opinion
is the most important punk artist of all time, with Iggy Pop being
a close second.
So were you really deeply into punk, or only its most visible
practitioners like The Ramones?
Here is a list of my favorite punk performers, if you'd like to
comment on any of their works:
Alice Cooper
Arto Lindsay
Berlin
Black Flag
Blondie
Devo
Henry Rollins
Iggy Pop
Lou Reed
Lydia Lunch
Missing Persons
Patti Smith
Pere Ubu
Richard Hell And The Voidoids
Romeo Void
Suicide
Television
The Cars
The Dead Boys
The Dead Kennedys
The Flamin' Groovies
The Fugs
The Lords Of The New Church
The MC5
The Plasmatics
The Ramones
The Reds
The Runaways
The Seeds
The Stilettos
The Stooges
The Tubes
The Up
The Velvet Underground
Tuff Darts
Urban Verbs
Wall Of Voodoo
Wayne/Jane County
X
SavoyBG
>In posts gone by, you have justified your love of 1960s bubblegum
>music by citing its influence on 1970s punk rock
I didn't "justify" it, I just informed somepeople who seem to think influence
is important, that bubbgle gum was not some teenage drivel that was long
forgotten.
> yet here again
>you admit to never having heard the music of a well-known figure
>in the New York punk scene
He couldn't have ben too "well known," I've never seen him ever mentioned in
this group before, or anywhere else for that matter.
>(This time it is Wayne/Jane County;
>previously it was Richard Hell and Television.)
I never said that I never heard of Richard Hell or Television, only that they
are fogotten nobdies now.
>You have also
>said that you only like one song by Patti Smith, who in my opinion
>is the most important punk artist of all time
Opinions are like assholes.....I don't think you'd get much agreement with your
opinion in that case. People seem to give that title to the Sex Pistols, but of
course your bias against Europeon artists would preclude that from happening.
>So were you really deeply into punk, or only its most visible
>practitioners like The Ramones?
>
I was NEVER deeply into punk, but I liked a lot of the punk and new wave music
from the late 70's and early 80's, but you really are in no position to
question my likes or dislikes, since you completely ignore all of the English
punk and new wave acts, and I think just about anybody who was deeply into that
scene will acknowledge that the English artists, on the whole, were more
important and more prolific than the couple of American artists that you
embrace.
>Alice Cooper
He's not punk.
<rest of list snipped for obvious anti-Europeon bias>
JL
"SavoyBG" <sav...@aol.com> wrote in message > the English artists, on the
whole, were more
> important and more prolific than the couple of American artists that you
> embrace.
There were many great English artists on the scene, but where you are
incorrect is there were also many American artists(like Patti Smith) that
were extremely important. In New York City alone there was a huge scene, and
I can think of other cities that also had a great local scene during that
period. It was an extremely creative time.
Julio
now playing: The Mumps - Crocodile Tears (Bomp/Exhibit J '77)
Brett A. Pasternack
> Here is a list of my favorite punk performers, if you'd like to
> comment on any of their works:
>
> Alice Cooper
> Berlin
> The Cars
You consider these artists PUNK?
Todd Tamanend Clark
>
> I didn't "justify" it, I just informed some people who seem to
> think influence is important, that bubblegum was not some
Like any genre, bubblegum needs to be analyzed on a song by song
basis. For instance, "Green Tambourine" is a clever innovative
song, but "Sugar Sugar" is a contrived piece of garbage.
> > ... here again you admit to never having heard the music of a
> > well-known figure in the New York punk scene
>
> He couldn't have been too "well known," I've never seen him ever
> mentioned in this group before, or anywhere else for that matter.
Wayne/Jayne County released fifteen albums between 1977 and 2002
and appeared on the 1997 Iggy Pop tribute album.
Since you like "Too Drunk To Fuck" by The Dead Kennedys, I'm sure
you'd get a huge kick out of his/her classic "If You Don't Wanna
Fuck Me Baby Fuck Off".
Here's an excerpt from Bradley Torreano's review of "Rock 'N' Roll
Cleopatra":
"Jayne County was the John Waters of rock music, crafting
blatantly offensive and goofy music that delivered mean-spirited
entertainment and a hilarious freak show. Bragging up her own
importance on virtually every other song, some of County's best
music can be found on this compilation. "Storm The Gates Of
Heaven" is one of the most silly, offensive, angry, and campy
songs to grace the punk movement, delivering a disdain for
Christianity with tongue firmly in cheek and middle finger
proudly raised. Elsewhere she chastises those who won't take her
home ("Fuck Off"), celebrates the twisted men who go through her
life ("Mean Muthafuckin' Man"), and sings a tribute to filthy
bathroom affairs ("Toilet Love"). Vile, nasty, and hilarious,
County is obviously not for everyone. But this is a document of
an important performance artist; in the 1970s, her live shows
couldn't be touched for sheer energy and entertainment."
> I never said that I never heard of Richard Hell or Television,
> only that they are forgotten nobodies now.
Both Richard Hell's and Television's debut albums are punk
classics, the genre at its very best. Their recent strong
placings in the 1977 Album Survivor contest helps to confirm
this.
> > You have also said that you only like one song by Patti Smith,
> > who in my opinion is the most important punk artist of all
> > time, with Iggy Pop being a close second.
>
> I don't think you'd get much agreement with your opinion in
> that case. People seem to give that title to the Sex Pistols,
> but of course your bias against Europeon [Freudian misspelling]
> artists would preclude that from happening.
Just because I specialize in collecting American music, doesn't
mean that I won't acknowledge the talent of European musicians
when it's present, as my past posts have confirmed, but The Sex
Pistols only made one album, and it is flamingly incompetent
utter musical trash. They simply got the lion's share of punk
publicity due to a combination of their manager's agressive
media stunts and their own vast capacity for self-destruction.
Patti Smith and Iggy Pop, on the other hand, were major pioneers
and had already made several great albums before The Sex Pistols
ever formed.
> I was NEVER deeply into punk, but I liked a lot of the punk and
> new wave music from the late 70s and early 80s, but you really
> are in no position to question my likes or dislikes...
I'm not trying to start a flame war with you, Bruce. I'm just
asking you for clarification of your position and hoping to
maybe expose you to some new music that you might enjoy.
> ... since you completely ignore all of the English punk and new
> wave acts, and I think just about anybody who was deeply into
> that scene will acknowledge that the English artists, on the
> whole, were more important and more prolific than the couple of
> American artists that you embrace.
As Julio has pointed out in another post, there were a very large
number of American punk artists who led thriving cultural
enclaves in just about every major American city.
> > Alice Cooper
>
> He's not punk.
He himself begs to differ.
And I thing his first five albums support his contention of being
one of the grandfathers of punk.
> (rest of list snipped for obvious anti-Europeon bias)
What a convenient cop-out!
And here I was regretting that I had left Robert Gordon off the
list, an artist you and I both like very much.
GBlueOwl
<bret...@erols.com> writes:
He lost me on Alice Cooper as well, but as for the other two, and several
others on his original list, I just assumed that by "Punk", he was including
the whole larger "Punk / New Wave" thing.
I've believe I've mentioned here before how inadequate I find "Punk" as the
label used to describe the mid 70's musical shift that was really just a
rebellion against the entrenched "establishment" Music scene of the day which
perpetuated overly restrictive radio formats & familiar cash cow "Dinosaur"
bands that Record labels focused all their attention on. This rebellion
actually took a fairly wide variety of forms, particularly in the New York
scene where it first took root, and Loud, Fast, Aggressive was really only one
flavor.
Quite often it seems that the labels that get attached to music, artistic or
social movements early on later prove to be misleading or inadequate to
describe what the movement is actually about, what grows into or how it winds
up changing the course of whatever it's a part of (Many such labels in fact
just wind up being variations of "New", "Modern" "Neo-", ect, which becomes
inherently inaccurate with the simple passage of time, and inevitably leave the
next phase being stuck with a "Post-" prefix). Sometimes it seems there is an
effort to retroactively apply labels to past movements once the true nature of
their influence can be better seen, hence the "Freakbeat" label given to a
flavor of mid 60's British music whose original practitioners & fans had never
heard the term "Freakbeat" in their lives. There also seems to have been an
attempt to retroactively give the label "D.I.Y." to the whole Punk / New Wave
thing (apparently for the Do It Yourself nature of self taught musicians
starting up their own labels to release their own often crude sounding
recordings), but that doesn't seem to have really caught on.
The point is "Punk", while probably a good term for the "Loud Fast Aggressive"
subgenere of the movement, is a woefully inadequate label for the explosion of
new forms of music that sprang up from the 70's musical underground, but with
the exception of Alice Cooper all the artists on Clark's list can in some way
trace their origins to this larger Musical Movement. He probably should have
used some term other than Punk, but there doesn't seem to really be one, except
possibly "Punk / New Wave".
Brian
SavoyBG
>Like any genre, bubblegum needs to be analyzed on a song by song
>basis. For instance, "Green Tambourine" is a clever innovative
>song, but "Sugar Sugar" is a contrived piece of garbage.
>
I don't consider "Green Tambourine" to be bubble gum. Just because it was on
Buddah dies not make it bubble gum. It's no more bubble gum than other similar
records of the day like "Incense & Peppermints."
Talk about contrived pieces of garbage, half of the Injun shit that you like is
contrived buffalo shit.
Gross Bruceberg uttered:
Keep fucking with my name Sitting Bullshit.
>Since you like "Too Drunk To Fuck" by The Dead Kennedys, I'm sure
>you'd get a huge kick out of his/her classic "If You Don't Wanna
>Fuck Me Baby Fuck Off".
Why would you think that?
# 1 - I don't like records because of the lyrics, never have.
# 2 - Even if I did like "Too Drunk To Fuck" because of the lyrics, do you
think that means I would automatically like any record with a similar subject
matter?
>Here's an excerpt from Bradley Torreano's review of "Rock 'N' Roll
>Cleopatra":
>
Why would I POSSIBLY care what some schmuck named Bradley Torreano thinks about
anything?
>"Jayne County was the John Waters of rock music,
Who the fuck is John Waters?
>crafting
>blatantly offensive and goofy music that delivered mean-spirited
>entertainment and a hilarious freak show.
I normally hate freak show type acts.
>Both Richard Hell's and Television's debut albums are punk
>classics, the genre at its very best.
Tell us Clark, what do you think of the following punk / new wave artists?
The Clash
Squeeze
New Muzik
Elvis Costello
Sex Pistols
Ten Pole Tudor
Department S
Ian Dury
Human League
>Their recent strong
>placings in the 1977 Album Survivor contest helps to confirm
>this.
>
Since you are placing some importance on that contest, could you refresh my
memory and tell me which album WON that contest, and how did it do in the final
against Television?
>but The Sex
>Pistols only made one album, and it is flamingly incompetent
>utter musical trash.
Unlike Patti barking out "My Generation," which is musicial genius, right?
>Patti Smith and Iggy Pop, on the other hand, were major pioneers
>and had already made several great albums before The Sex Pistols
>ever formed.
I agree, Patti Smith and Iggy Pop both made several grating albums.
> Alice Cooper
>>
>> He's not punk.
>
>He himself begs to differ.
As the Anti-Nowhere League said, "So What?"
You won't find hardly any punk fans who agree with you or Vinny that his music
was punk.
>And I thing his first five albums support his contention of being
>one of the grandfathers of punk.
>
I think you're crazy.
Todd Tamanend Clark
I was including the proto-punk and new wave subgenres as part of
the punk label.
And the problems and process of labeling then bring us to the
nebulous point at which punk evolves into cyberpunk.
I think that from my original list Berlin, Devo, Missing Persons,
and The Lords Of The New Church were technological forerunners of
what eventually became cyberpunk with Ministry, Skinny Puppy, Die
Warzau, Nine Inch Nails, Consolidated, and Marilyn Manson.
SavoyBG
>Alice Cooper
>>And I thing his first five albums support his contention of being
>>one of the grandfathers of punk.
>>
You said yourself that Kiss was a corporate ripoff of Alice Cooper, and I
agree.
Do you consider Kiss to be punk?
Todd Tamanend Clark
> You said yourself that Kiss was a corporate ripoff of Alice
> Cooper, and I agree.
>
> Do you consider Kiss to be punk?
No.
And I don't consider Pat Boone to be rock'n'roll, no matter
how much he ripped off Little Richard's repertoire.
SavoyBG
>It's hilarious how hard you work to warp the results into an
>anti-Television outcome. "Oh sure, Television was in the final over
>dozens and dozens of other releases. But it LOST BIG! BIG! BIG!!!" Too
>funny.
As usual you miss the point entirely Mikey.
Mr. Clark refuses to recognize Elvis Costello as an important punk atist
because Elvis is from Europe.
SavoyBG
>And I don't consider Pat Boone to be rock'n'roll, no matter
>how much he ripped off Little Richard's repertoire.
Well, Pat Boone WAS considered to be rock and roll in the 50s, whether you want
to accept it or not.
Alice Cooper is about as much "punk" as Alice Kramden.
SavoyBG
>I've decided that Clark's racism and bigotry are so outfront and obvious
>that there's really no point in even mentioning them anymore.
>
>His recent one-sentence dismissal of Elton John's career was classic.
>
So he's even more of a buffoon that I am in your opinion?
Todd Tamanend Clark
> > Gross Bruceberg uttered:
>
> Keep fucking with my name Sitting Bullshit.
Holy knishes, my fine feathered fiend, you get as cranky as a
crack addict whenever you have computer crash conundrums!
> Tell us, Clark, what do you think of the following punk/new
> wave artists?
>
> The Clash
Average musicianship, but right-on politics. I like Allen
Ginsberg's guest vocals on "Ghetto Defendant".
> Squeeze
Totally boring.
> New Muzik
Never heard of them.
> Elvis Costello
Average musicianship, but articulate lyrics. The more I see
otherwise sensible women dating lowbrow neanderthals, the more
I appreciate "Is She Really Going Out With Him".
> Sex Pistols
Horrible musicianship, but they at least have the courage to
criticize the fascist wrongdoings of the British Empire.
> Ten Pole Tudor
Never heard of them.
> Department S
Never heard of them.
> Ian Dury
Totally boring.
> Human League
Cool synthesizer layering.
- - - -
TODD TAMANEND CLARK
Poet/Composer/Multi-Instrumentalist/Cultural Historian
The Monongahela River, Turtle Island
- -
Now Available:
Staff, Mask, Rattle (2-CD: Instrumental)
http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/ttc2
- - - -
"We need more diabolic music everywhere."
- - William S. Burroughs
SavoyBG
>Already Here (Redbone, 1972: Vinyl)
They made one good song.
>Are You Experienced (The Jimi Hendrix Experience, 1967: CD)
Garbage
>Axis: Bold As Love (The Jimi Hendrix Experience, 1967: CD)
Worse garbage
>Coincidence And Likely Stories (Buffy Sainte-Marie, 1992: CD)
Everything I ever heard by her sucked.
>Electric Ladyland (The Jimi Hendrix Experience, 1968: CD)
Garbage.
>First Rays Of The New Rising Sun (Jimi Hendrix, 1997: CD)
Horseshit
<rest of list snipped>
The fact that you even care to list these itmes seperately from everything else
is embarassing.
How about a list of the TEN WORST Native American albums, or have none of you
ever made anything bad?
From what I've heard your own shit might take up half of that list.
SavoyBG
>Elvis Costello
>
>Average musicianship, but articulate lyrics. The more I see
>otherwise sensible women dating lowbrow neanderthals, the more
>I appreciate "Is She Really Going Out With Him".
What does a Joe Jackson song have to do with Elvis Costello?
Todd Tamanend Clark
that list of American proto-punk, punk, new wave, and cyberpunk
again for you to likewise analyze, Bruce:
Alice Cooper
Arto Lindsay
Berlin
Black Flag
Blondie
Consolidated
Devo
Die Warzau
Filter
Gravity Kills
Henry Rollins
Iggy Pop
Jim Carroll
Lou Reed
Lydia Lunch
Marilyn Manson
Ministry
Missing Persons
Nine Inch Nails
Patti Smith
Pere Ubu
Richard Hell And The Voidoids
Rob Zombie
Robert Gordon
Romeo Void
Skinny Puppy
Stabbing Westward
Suicide
Television
The Cars
The Dead Boys
The Dead Kennedys
The Flamin' Groovies
The Fugs
The Lords Of The New Church
The MC5
The Plasmatics
The Ramones
The Reds
The Runaways
The Seeds
The Sonics
The Stilettos
The Stooges
The Tubes
The Up
The Velvet Underground
Tuff Darts
Urban Verbs
Wall Of Voodoo
Wayne/Jayne County
X
- - - -
TODD TAMANEND CLARK
Poet/Composer/Multi-Instrumentalist/Cultural Historian
The Monongahela River, Turtle Island
- -
Now Available:
Staff, Mask, Rattle (2-CD: Instrumental)
http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/ttc2
- - - -
DianeE
"Todd Tamanend Clark" <tama...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:41960cc5.04010...@posting.google.com...
>
> Here is a list of some of my favorite Native American albums:
<snip of very long list>
--------------
I don't see Tina Turner on that list! Are you immune to her charms?
DianeE
SavoyBG
>Now that I commented on the British list that you gave me, here's
>that list of American proto-punk, punk, new wave, and cyberpunk
>again for you to likewise analyze, Bruce:
>Alice Cooper - NOT PUNK
>Arto Lindsay - NEVER HEARD OF THEM
>Berlin - FIGURES YOU'D LIKE CORNY STUFF LIKE "TAKE MY BREAT AWAY."
>Black Flag - LOUD NOISE SLIGHTLY RESEMBLING MUSIC
>Blondie - DEBBIE HARRY DID MY MOTHER'S NAILS IN THE 60's, SHE WAS A MANICURIST
AT A BEAUTY PARLOR OWNED BY TWO HOMOSEXUALS. SEE MY 1970s TOP 100 ON MY
WEBPAGE, IT CONTAINS "Heart Of Glass," which does not sound like punk to me.
>Consolidated - NHOT
>Devo - SEE MY 1980s LIST ON MY WEBPAGE, THEY HAVE TWO RECORDINGS THAT JUST
MISSED THE TOP 50.
>Die Warzau
>Filter
>Gravity Kills
>Henry Rollins -NOHAOT
>Iggy Pop - MADE A COUPLE OF THINGS I THOUGHT WERE OKAY, like "
RUN LIKE A VILLIAN."
>Jim Carroll - UNTALENTED STREET PERSON, DECENT RECORD.
>Lou Reed - ONE OF THE WORST SINGERS I'VE EVER HEARD FROM AMONG POPULAR
ARTISTS
>Lydia Lunch - NHOT
>Marilyn Manson - WHITE NOISE
>Ministry - "WORK FOR LOVE" was pretty good. LIKE A LOT OF THE ARTISTS YOU
LIST, I"D CATEGORIZE THEM AS "NEW WAVE" RATHER THAN PUNK.
I WAS BUYING A LOT OF THIS STUFF WHEN IT CAME OUT (1981 to 1985) AND NOBODY WAS
CALLING IT PUNK.
>Missing Persons - COULDN'T STAND HER BARBIE DOLL VOICE.
>Nine Inch Nails - NOTHING TOO GOOD
>Patti Smith - A LOUD UGLY WOMAN WHO SCREACHED BAD REMAKES OF "GLORIA" & "MY
GENERATION" AND MADE OTHER UNLISTENABLE NOISE LIKE "PISS FACTORY."
>Pere Ubu - NHOH
>Richard Hell And The Voidoids - DIDN'T CARE FOR THEM
>Rob Zombie - NHOH
>Robert Gordon - ONE OF MY FAVORITES OF THE LATE 70s, BUT ONLY AFTER HIS PUNK
DAYS WHEN HE STARTED MAKING GOOD ROCKABILLY REMAKES.
>Romeo Void - GOD UGLY WOMAN, BUT "NEVER SAY NEVER" WAS A PRETTY GOOD RECORD.
>Skinny Puppy
>Stabbing Westward - NOHAOT
>Suicide
>Television - NOT GOOD
>The Cars - SEVERAL PRETTY GOOD RECORDS, NOTHING OUTSTANDING, NOT REALLY PUNK
IMO, they are to punk what Herb Alpert was to jazz
>The Dead Boys - DIDN'T CARE FOR THEM
>The Dead Kennedys - HOLIDAY IN CAMBODIA WAS GOOD, TOO DRUNK TO FUCK WAS
PRETTY GOOD, MY FAVORITE PART WAS AT THE END WHEN HE PUKES.
>The Flamin' Groovies - GOOD SOUND, NOT PUNK THOUGH
>The Fugs - DON'T LIKE THEM
>The Lords Of The New Church - COUPLE OF GOOD RECORDS LIKE "OPEN MY EYES."
>The MC5 - NOT PUNK TO ME, MORE LIKE HARD ROCK - UNLISTENABLE WHITE NOISE.
>The Plasmatics - UNLISTENABLE WHITE NOISE
>The Ramones - PROBABLY MY FAVORITE NEW WAVE ACT OF THE 70s.
>The Reds - NHOT
>The Runaways - GOOD LOOKING GIRLS, NOT MUCH MUSIC TO LIKE.
>The Seeds - COUPLE OF GOOD RECORDS.
>The Sonics
>The Stilettos - UNIMPRESSIVE TO ME
>The Stooges - DIDN'T CARE FOR THEM
>The Tubes - HARDLY PUNK FOR LONG - "SHE'S A BEAUTY" IS A TYPICAL FM ROCK SONG
- "TALK TO YOU LATER" wasn't bad.
>The Up - THUMBS DOWN
>The Velvet Underground - DO NOT LIKE THEM AT ALL, ONE OF THE MOST OVERRATED
GROUPS EVER, WOUL RATHER LISTEN TO THE ENTIRE BILLY JOEL AND ELTON JOHN CATALOG
ANYDAY THAN TO HAVE TO ENDURE ANY OF THEIR MUSIC.
>Tuff Darts - SEE ROBERT GORDON
>Urban Verbs - What's an urban verb, is that like when an urban kid tries to
grub money of you and says "Can I hold a dollar?" Would "hold" be an urban verb
meaning "have."
>Wall Of Voodoo - LIKED "MEXICAN RADIO" but it's awfully hard to sit through
now.
>Wayne/Jayne County - NHOT
>X - DIDN'T LIKE THEM
Todd Tamanend Clark
> > > Elvis Costello
> >
> > Average musicianship, but articulate lyrics. The more I see
> > otherwise sensible women dating lowbrow neanderthals, the
> > more I appreciate "Is She Really Going Out With Him".
>
> What does a Joe Jackson song have to do with Elvis Costello?
My mistake.
The song I think is really well-written by Elvis Costello is
"Alison".
Todd Tamanend Clark
> > Here is a list of some of my favorite Native American albums:
> I don't see Tina Turner on that list!
As long as it was, the list was by no means complete.
My house is filled with thousands of Native American records, CDs,
DVDs, video tapes, books, magazines, artifacts, crafts, sculptures,
and hand-made musical instruments.
> Are you immune to her charms?
Absolutely not.
I've bought Tina Turner records on vinyl ever since the early
1960s, and I often defend Ike Turner's guitar and piano prowess
to underrating unbelievers.
What I have by Tina Turner on CD right now is:
Bold Soul Sister: The Best Of The Blue Note Recordings
Every Hit Single: 1960-1974
River Deep Mountain High
The Collected Recordings: Sixties To Nineties Box Set
As well as her autobiography "I, Tina" and the DVD of "What's Love
Got To Do With It".
Todd Tamanend Clark
> > Already Here (Redbone, 1972: Vinyl)
>
> They made one good song.
>
> > Are You Experienced (The Jimi Hendrix Experience, 1967: CD)
>
>
> > Axis: Bold As Love (The Jimi Hendrix Experience, 1967: CD)
>
>
> > Coincidence And Likely Stories (Buffy Sainte-Marie, 1992: CD)
>
> Everything I ever heard by her sucked.
>
> > Electric Ladyland (The Jimi Hendrix Experience, 1968: CD)
>
> Garbage.
>
> > First Rays Of The New Rising Sun (Jimi Hendrix, 1997: CD)
>
So out of a list of one hundred and ninety-five Native American
albums, you've only ever heard six of them?
> The fact that you even care to list these items seperately
> from everything else is embarassing.
It's called affirmative action. It's an unfortunately necessary
device to remedy five hundred and twelve years of oppression
and genocide.
> How about a list of the TEN WORST Native American albums, or
> have none of you ever made anything bad?
Every ethnic group has made both greater and lesser works.
> From what I've heard your own shit might take up half of that
> list.
Considering your low opinions of Jimi Hendrix, Frank Zappa, and
Sun Ra, I guess I'm in pretty good company then.
- - - -
TODD TAMANEND CLARK
Poet/Composer/Multi-Instrumentalist/Cultural Historian
The Monongahela River, Turtle Island
- -
Now Available:
Staff, Mask, Rattle (2-CD: Instrumental)
http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/ttc2
- - - -
"A shattering realization is brought home: The German Holocaust
was not unique in history. There is a holocaust in our American
past. We owe it to its victims, and to our own future, to reflect
on this." - - Hans Koning
Todd Tamanend Clark
> I've decided that Clark's racism and bigotry are so outfront
> and obvious that there's really no point in even mentioning
> them anymore.
This is the typical misdirection tactic employed by closet white
supremists to try to discredit people of color whenever they
stand up for themselves against the actual racism of the dominant
culture. Your reverse psychology attempt to blame the victim is
pathetically transparent to anyone who has experienced the day
to day boot-heel living that is rampant under colonial oppression.
- - - -
TODD TAMANEND CLARK
Poet/Composer/Multi-Instrumentalist/Cultural Historian
The Monongahela River, Turtle Island
- -
Now Available:
Staff, Mask, Rattle (2-CD: Instrumental)
http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/ttc2
- - - -
"Our sacred birthright, which we shall never freely forfeit,
includes the right to heal from the trauma of colonization, and
to one day be free and independent of all forms of colonial
domination. We have a solemn responsibility to use every fiber
and breath of our being to uphold and protect the sacred
birthright of our own children and young people, for the benefit
of our future generations, and for the benefit of all life."
- - Steven Newcomb
SavoyBG
>So out of a list of one hundred and ninety-five Native American
>albums, you've only ever heard six of them?
Where did I say that?
>It's called affirmative action. It's an unfortunately necessary
>device to remedy five hundred and twelve years of oppression
>and genocide.
Glad to hear you admit this, that you are purposely rating these records higher
than they deserve to be rated. I don't agree that it should be done, but at
least your admission lets me realize that a lot of these records are not really
very good and that you are just SAYING that they are because you think that
somehow makes up for past injustices done to ancestors of the artists.
By the way, when was the last time that genocide was used on your people?
Certainly is was much longer ago that when genocide was used on the Jews in
Europe.
SavoyBG
>Your reverse psychology attempt to blame the victim is
>pathetically transparent to anyone who has experienced the day
>to day boot-heel living that is rampant under colonial oppression.
And you've been opressed by the colonies?
I suppose that's a conveniant excuse to make you feel better about your failure
as a musician.
JL
Julio
Todd Tamanend Clark
>
> > Berlin
>
> FIGURES YOU'D LIKE CORNY STUFF LIKE "TAKE MY BREATH AWAY"
I like their early heavy electronic stuff best, but "Take My
Breath Away" still has a great synth bass line.
> > Black Flag
>
> LOUD NOISE SLIGHTLY RESEMBLING MUSIC
First you don't like a group because they don't rock enough,
then you dislike another group because they rock too much.
> > Blondie
>
> SEE MY 1970s TOP 100 ON MY WEBPAGE, IT CONTAINS "Heart Of Glass"
> which does not sound like punk to me.
"Heart Of Glass" is a punk satire on disco.
> > Consolidated - NHOT
Obviously, because it takes a Mensa level I.Q. to understand them,
and you're too subliterate to pay attention to even the simplest
of lyrics.
> > Lou Reed
>
> ONE OF THE WORST SINGERS I'VE EVER HEARD FROM AMONG POPULAR
> ARTISTS
Lou Reed sings bad in a good way, just like Bob Dylan: with total
direct honesty and completely relaxed and in control.
> > Ministry
>
> "WORK FOR LOVE" was pretty good. LIKE A LOT OF THE ARTISTS YOU
> LIST, I"D CATEGORIZE THEM AS "NEW WAVE" RATHER THAN PUNK.
>
> I WAS BUYING A LOT OF THIS STUFF WHEN IT CAME OUT (1981 to 1985)
> AND NOBODY WAS CALLING IT PUNK.
Their early career was as a new wave dance act, a period in Al
Jourgensen's life that he now totally rejects. All of these later
albums are so heavy they make Metallica look like John Denver:
The Land Of Rape And Honey (1988)
The Mind Is A Terrible Thing To Taste (1989)
In Case You Didn't Feel Like Showing Up (1990)
Psalm 69: The Way To Succeed And The Way To Suck Eggs (1992)
Filth Pig (1996)
Dark Side Of The Spoon (2000)
Animositisomina (2003)
> > Missing Persons
>
> COULDN'T STAND HER BARBIE DOLL VOICE.
Granted, Dale Bozzio's voice is an acquired taste, but the band
behind her are all top notch Zappa veterans.
> > Nine Inch Nails
>
> NOTHING TOO GOOD
It figures that since you don't appreciate a genius like Frank
Zappa, you also wouldn't appreciate a genius like Trent Reznor.
> > Patti Smith
>
> A LOUD UGLY WOMAN WHO SCREACHED BAD REMAKES OF "GLORIA" & "MY
> GENERATION" AND MADE OTHER UNLISTENABLE NOISE LIKE "PISS
> FACTORY."
You have no room to be calling other people loud and ugly...
> > Romeo Void
>
> GOD UGLY WOMAN, BUT "NEVER SAY NEVER" WAS A PRETTY GOOD RECORD.
... But there you go again!
> > The Cars
>
> SEVERAL PRETTY GOOD RECORDS, NOTHING OUTSTANDING, NOT REALLY PUNK
> IMO, they are to punk what Herb Alpert was to jazz.
I pretty much agree.
> > The Flamin' Groovies
>
> GOOD SOUND, NOT PUNK THOUGH
Not hard core, but proto-punk.
> > The MC5
>
> NOT PUNK TO ME, MORE LIKE HARD ROCK - UNLISTENABLE WHITE NOISE.
Dave Marsh thinks "Kick Out The Jams" is the best live album ever.
> > The Velvet Underground
>
> DO NOT LIKE THEM AT ALL, ONE OF THE MOST OVERRATED GROUPS EVER,
> WOULD RATHER LISTEN TO THE ENTIRE BILLY JOEL AND ELTON JOHN
> CATALOG ANY DAY THAN TO HAVE TO ENDURE ANY OF THEIR MUSIC.
At least you recognize what total garbage the works of Billy Joel
and Elton John are.
> > X
>
> DIDN'T LIKE THEM
X were perhaps the best punk band ever. But then you'd have to deal
with those literate lyrics again, and I'm sure that would just give
you the same type of headache that that moron in the white house
would get under the same circumstances.
- - - -
TODD TAMANEND CLARK
Poet/Composer/Multi-Instrumentalist/Cultural Historian
The Monongahela River, Turtle Island
- -
Now Available:
Staff, Mask, Rattle (2-CD: Instrumental)
http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/ttc2
- - - -
"The important thing about art is that it makes people aware
of what they know but don't KNOW that they know. This
breakthrough results in a permanent expansion of consciousness."
JGM
>"Heart Of Glass" is a punk satire on disco.
Wow. Quite a statment, there: they weren't co-opted, they were satirizing!
How do you figure this? "Heart" neatly straddles the boundaries between New
Wave and disco, as "Rip Her to Shreds" bridged punk and girl-group pop. It's
not like Blondie were ever a hard-core punk act.
>The Mind Is A Terrible Thing To Taste (1989)
>Filth Pig (1996)
>Dark Side Of The Spoon (2000)
>Animositisomina (2003)
Aren't these all Spinal Tap covers?
If not, they should be. At some point raw agression just becomes funny.
>> > Missing Persons
>Granted, Dale Bozzio's voice is an acquired taste, but the band
>behind her are all top notch Zappa veterans.
Slumming. Missing Persons was synthetic in more ways than one, a desperate
record exec's version of what New Wave was: a Playboy bunny backed by a bunch
of studio flacks.
>X were perhaps the best punk band ever.
A strong candidate at least. Unlike the bands you mentioned that started out
as dance acts or popsters (or Zappa vets) and moved to punk or new wave when it
hit, X were groundbreakers from the start. And, interestingly, of all the acts
of the era, they have worn the best; they were still making great rock records
in the late '80s, an eternity for a punk/new wave band. Even after X split,
Exene Cervenka did some marvelous acoustic folk in the early '90s, and I've
heard John Doe is taking the same tack recently.
JGM
LRossi3940
to try to discredit people of color whenever they stand up for themselves
against the actual racism of the dominant culture. Your reverse psychology
attempt to blame the victim is
pathetically transparent to anyone who has experienced the day to day boot-heel
living that is rampant under colonial oppression. >
" This land is your land, this land is my land.
From California to the New York Island,
From the Redwood Forests, to the Gulf Stream waters, This land was made for you
and me. "
.... And to think these words were written by a white guy. Colonial oppression
? Maybe if your Indian friends put the whiskey bottle down for 5 minutes they
might get somewhere. Whining about how you were oppressed will get you nowhere.
No one gives a shit. We were all oppressed at one point. Get over it.
Peace
SavoyBG
>"Heart Of Glass" is a punk satire on disco.
I guess they foioled all the disco people, I think it was # 1 on the disco
chart.
>The MC5
>>
>> NOT PUNK TO ME, MORE LIKE HARD ROCK - UNLISTENABLE WHITE NOISE.
>
>Dave Marsh thinks "Kick Out The Jams" is the best live album ever.
>
That proves that they stink.
PRowan9262
>might get somewhere. Whining about how you were oppressed will get you
>nowhere.
>No one gives a shit. We were all oppressed at one point. Get over it.
>
>
>
>
>
>Peace
Tremendous rant, baby!!!
Actually.......there was a movement to try the native Americans as slaves at
one point in history but they proved to be anathema to work!!
A more lassitudinous lot could never be found in the history of anthropology,
baby!!!
They're definitely disposed to dipsomania too!!!
Irossi..........I believe you gotta Bingo, baby!!!!
Dennis C from Tennessee
Todd Tamanend Clark
> > So out of a list of one hundred and ninety-five Native American
> > albums, you've only ever heard six of them?
>
> Where did I say that?
Actions speak louder than words.
You only responded to six albums on the original list.
I'll simplify it for you. If one hundred and ninety-five unranked
albums are too many to respond to, here is a list of forty ranked:
01) Are You Experienced (The Jimi Hendrix Experience)
02) Contact From The Underworld Of Redboy (Robbie Robertson)
03) Music For The Native Americans (Robbie Robertson)
04) Electric Ladyland (The Jimi Hendrix Experience)
05) Axis: Bold As Love (The Jimi Hendrix Experience)
06) Bitter Tears (Johnny Cash)
07) Native North American Child (Buffy Sainte-Marie)
08) Five Hundred Nations (Peter Buffett)
09) The Battle Of Los Angeles (Rage Against The Machine)
10) Koyaanisqatsi (Philip Glass)
11) Kokopelli's Cafe (The R. Carlos Nakai Quartet)
12) Kiva (Roach, Stearns, Sunsinger)
13) One Nation Under (Blackfire)
14) Rage Against The Machine (Rage Against The Machine)
15) Roots (Sepultura)
16) Spirit (Peter Buffett)
17) Evil Empire (Rage Against The Machine)
18) The Ultimate Yma Sumac Collection (Yma Sumac)
19) Music From The Fifth World (Jack DeJohnette)
20) Two World Concerto (James DeMars & R. Carlos Nakai)
21) Sub-Verses (Aztlan Underground)
22) White Buffalo (Robert Tree Cody & Others)
23) The Ultimate Redbone (Redbone)
24) Rumble: The Best Of Link Wray (Link Wray)
25) Indigenous (Indigenous)
26) Collected Recordings: Sixties To Nineties (Tina Turner)
27) Under A Pale Grey Sky (Sepultura)
28) Music From A Painted Cave (Robert Mirabal)
29) The Gathering Of Nations Pow Wow 1999 [Various Artists]
30) First Rays Of The New Rising Sun (Jimi Hendrix)
31) Big Medicine (The R. Carlos Nakai Quartet)
32) Ancient Future (The R. Carlos Nakai Quartet)
33) Coincidence And Likely Stories (Buffy Sainte-Marie)
34) Custer Died For Your Sins (Floyd Red Crow Westerman)
35) Already Here (Redbone)
36) Forgotten Gods (Suspended Memories)
37) Gathering Of Shamen (Native Flute Ensemble)
38) Hidden Medicine (Red Thunder)
39) In Beauty I Walk (Coyote Oldman)
40) Letter From The End Of The 20th Century (Joy Harjo)
> > It's called affirmative action. It's an unfortunately
> > necessary device to remedy five hundred and twelve years of
> > oppression and genocide.
>
> Glad to hear you admit this, that you are purposely rating these
> records higher than they deserve to be rated.
That's not what I'm doing. The affirmative action comment was in
response to creating a separate list in the first place.
> I don't agree that it should be done, but at least your admission
> lets me realize that a lot of these records are not really
> very good and that you are just SAYING that they are because you
> think that somehow makes up for past injustices done to ancestors
> of the artists.
Most of these recordings are very good, especially the top forty
listed above. If I hadn't demanded quality as a prerequisite to
getting on the original list, it would have contained approximately
seven hundred items.
- - - -
TODD TAMANEND CLARK
Poet/Composer/Multi-Instrumentalist/Cultural Historian
The Monongahela River, Turtle Island
- -
Now Available:
Staff, Mask, Rattle (2-CD: Instrumental)
http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/ttc2
- - - -
"I am indescribably thankful that our cultures turned out to be so
different, no matter how much abuse and sacrifice it has entailed.
I am proud to stand inside the heritage of native struggle. I am
proud to say that I am an unreconstructable indigenist. For me,
there is no other reasonable or realistic way to look at the world.
And I invite anyone who shares that viewpoint to come aboard,
regardless of race, creed, or national origin."
- - Ward Churchill
Todd Tamanend Clark
>
> When was the last time that genocide was used on your people?
What time is it right now?
> Certainly it was much longer ago that when genocide was used
> on the Jews in Europe.
The genocide against Native Americans may have begun in 1492,
but it has yet to end here in 2004.
- - - -
TODD TAMANEND CLARK
Poet/Composer/Multi-Instrumentalist/Cultural Historian
The Monongahela River, Turtle Island
- -
Now Available:
Staff, Mask, Rattle (2-CD: Instrumental)
http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/ttc2
- - - -
"It's all in the past you can say, but it's still going on here
today." - - Buffy Sainte-Marie
SavoyBG
>The genocide against Native Americans may have begun in 1492,
>but it has yet to end here in 2004.
Let me see, I thought I knew what "genocide" meant. I better check in the
dictionary.
It says....The deliberate and systematic extermination a national, racial,
political, or cultural group.
Are you saying that there is somebody out there in 2004 who is deliberately
murdering native Indians?
GBlueOwl
<twod...@yahoo.com> writes:
>In article <20040108192338...@mb-m06.aol.com>,
> sav...@aol.com (SavoyBG) wrote:
>
>> >From: tama...@hotmail.com (Todd Tamanend Clark)
>>
>> >"Heart Of Glass" is a punk satire on disco.
>>
>> I guess they foioled all the disco people, I think it was # 1 on the disco
>> chart.
>
>Satire often goes right over the heads of the masses. Didn't Peter,
>Paul and Mary make it into the top 10 with "I Dig Rock and Roll Music"?
>
"Heart Of Glass" was *not* a "satire" of disco, any more than the Stones' "Miss
You" was. It was just a song they had kicking around for a while that had
never quite made the cut, but then when they put it to a disco beat everything
suddenly clicked, and they realized that what they had on their hands was
simply a great, infectious song that as a nice bonus happened to be in sync
with what radio was willing to play at the time. Blondie was always a Pop
friendly group that was never adverse to incorporating a variety of musical
styles into their sound. Rather than dissing or mocking the genre, they simply
found a way to take elements of disco and make it work for them.
Brian
Todd Tamanend Clark
> And you've been opressed by the colonies?
Ever since conception.
In religion, in nutrition, in health care, in employment, in civil
rights, in civil liberties, in physical safety, and yes in the arts.
> I suppose that's a conveniant excuse to make you feel better
> about your failure as a musician.
I've not failed in my art as a musician, only in commerce as a
businessman.
I'm currently working on my eleventh album. When's your first one
due? I play thirteen different musical instruments. Could you
even play a tambourine if your life depended on it?
- - - -
TODD TAMANEND CLARK
Poet/Composer/Multi-Instrumentalist/Cultural Historian
The Monongahela River, Turtle Island
- -
Now Available:
Staff, Mask, Rattle (2-CD: Instrumental)
http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/ttc2
- - - -
"Racism in America against Indian people is so institutionalized
and pervasive as to be almost unrecognizable."
- - Russell Means
SavoyBG
>I'm currently working on my eleventh album. When's your first one
>due? I play thirteen different musical instruments. Could you
>even play a tambourine if your life depended on it?
No, but your commercial failure is undoubtedly due to the anti-American Indian
feeling in the record industry as well as the radio industry, right?
Todd Tamanend Clark
> > The genocide against Native Americans may have begun in 1492,
> > but it has yet to end here in 2004.
>
> Let me see, I thought I knew what "genocide" meant. I better
> check in the dictionary.
>
>
> Are you saying that there is somebody out there in 2004 who is
> deliberately murdering native Indians?
Yes, that is exactly what I'm saying.
In Mexico, in Guatemala, in Peru, in Paraguay, in the rain forests
of Brazil, and to a lesser but not insignificant degree in South
Dakota and elsewhere.
In addition to physical genocide, there is also cultural genocide,
and that is still being practiced throughout all of North America
and South America.
In the past, I have posted a bibliography of over two hundred
Native American books that I have used to teach my children in
home school. I realize now that that is just too much information
for people who are not already well-versed in indigenous cultures
to absorb in a short period of time. Since you have inquired
specifically about contemporary autochthonal events, I suggest
reading several of these books:
A Basic Call To Consciousness
(Akwesasne Notes, 1977)
All Our Relations: Native Struggles For Land And Life
(Winona LaDuke, 1999)
American Indian Activism: Alcatraz To The Longest Walk
(Troy Johnson, 1997)
American Indian Ethnic Renewal: Red Power And The Resurgence Of
Identity And Culture
(Joane Nagel, 1997)
Encyclopedia Of American Indian Civil Rights
(James Stuart Olson & Others, 1997)
From A Native Son: Selected Essays On Indigenism
(Ward Churchill, 1996)
Like A Hurricane: The Indian Movement From Alcatraz To Wounded Knee
(Paul Chaat Smith & Robert Allen Warrior, 1996)
Mankiller: A Chief And Her People [Trade Paperback Edition]
(Wilma Mankiller & Michael Wallis, 1999)
Our Word Is Our Weapon
(Subcomandante Marcos, 2001)
Peace, Power, Righteousness: An Indigenous Manifesto
(Taiaiake Alfred, 1999)
Prison Writings: My Life Is My Sundance
(Leonard Peltier, 1999)
Red Power: The American Indians' Fight For Freedom [Second Edition]
(Alvin Josephy & Others, 1999)
Reinventing The Enemy's Language: Contemporary Native Women's
Writings Of North America
(Joy Harjo & Others, 1997)
Shaking The Rattle: Healing The Trauma Of Colonization
(Barbara-Helen Hill, 1996)
Spirit And Reason: The Vine Deloria, Junior, Reader
(Vine Deloria, Junior, 1999)
The Native American Almanac: A Portrait Of Native America Today
(Arlene Hirschfelder & Martha Kreipe De Montano, 1993)
The Rights Of Indians And Tribes: The Basic ACLU Guide To Indian
Tribal Rights [Second Edition]
(Stephen Pevar, 1992)
The State Of Native America: Genocide, Colonization, And Resistance
(M. Annette Jaimes & Others, 1992)
Where White Men Fear To Tread: The Autobiography Of Russell Means
(Russell Means & Martin Wolf, 1995)
Winds Of Renewal
(Time-Life Books, 1996)
Year 501: The Conquest Continues
(Noam Chomsky, 1993)
Or subscribing to these magazines:
Native Americas
Native Peoples
The Americas
- - - -
TODD TAMANEND CLARK
Poet/Composer/Multi-Instrumentalist/Cultural Historian
The Monongahela River, Turtle Island
- -
Now Available:
Staff, Mask, Rattle (2-CD: Instrumental)
http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/ttc2
- - - -
"To be an American also means that one is related to other
peoples in the Americas. Like the Cubans. Like the Venezuelans.
Like the Nicaraguans. Like the Brazilians."
- - Mumia Abu-Jamal
Todd Tamanend Clark
>
> Your commercial failure is undoubtedly due to the anti-American
> industry, right?
It's one part of the big picture.
As you have discussed in other threads about record collecting,
there are very many recordings that are released each year that
the average person never hears about. Approximately ninety-five
per cent of these recordings lose money, and approximately five
per cent break even or turn a profit. (Some artists make money
from their concerts but not their recordings. While low sales
can be a definite factor, some of this is also due to "creative"
book keeping on the part of corrupt record labels, some of it is
due to bootlegging and downloading, and some of it is due to
recording contracts that have fine print that is heavily weighted
in favor of the company that they offer to first time artists
who are desperate for a break.)
The vocal albums that I released during the 1970s and 1980s
were futuristic proto-cyberpunk that the ears and brains of the
average listener were not yet ready for at the time. Just like
there were minority artists in the 1950s that labored away in
relative obscurity pioneering certain styles of music that would
later become financially rewarding for more mainstream artists,
my early use of industrial machine percussion, agressive
synthesizers, electronically processed vocals, and cutting edge
avant-garde guitar, along with complex and controversial lyrics,
combined to form a style that would make later groups like
Skinny Puppy, Ministry, Nine Inch Nails, and Marilyn Manson rich
and famous.
During the 1990s, I took a hiatus from recording to be a full-time
single father to my children. When I returned to making albums in
the year 2000, I was much more interested in pursuing instrumental
jazz, but still with a cyberpunk edge to it. Most Native Americans
who play instrumental music are doing easy listening new age stuff,
and that's just not my style, even though I do have some ambient
passages in certain songs that act as an intro or interlude to the
harder edged industrial passages.
During both my vocal phase and my instrumental phase, I knew
going in that, like other serious composers such as Charles Ives,
Silvestre Revueltas, John Cage, Sun Ra, Morton Subotnick, Harry
Partch, Philip Glass, Glenn Branca, or Laurie Anderson that I
admire, I was not making music designed to be commercial, no matter
what my ethnicity. I accept responsibility for my own choices in
that regard, but that still does not excuse the way that the media
ignores Native American music in general. It was only a couple of
years ago that they even started a category for Native American
music at the Grammy Awards.
- - - -
TODD TAMANEND CLARK
Poet/Composer/Multi-Instrumentalist/Cultural Historian
The Monongahela River, Turtle Island
- -
Now Available:
Staff, Mask, Rattle (2-CD: Instrumental)
http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/ttc2
- - - -
"I opened the door for a lot of people, and they just ran through
and left me holding the knob."
- - Bo Diddley
JGM
>When I returned to making albums in
>the year 2000, I was much more interested in pursuing instrumental
>jazz, but still with a cyberpunk edge to it.
Sounds interesting. Is any of your stuff available online or are you willing
to share MP3s with the newsgroup?
JGM
SavoyBG
>The vocal albums that I released during the 1970s and 1980s
>were futuristic proto-cyberpunk that the ears and brains of the
>average listener were not yet ready for at the time.
If this makes you feel better about your failures, I gues there's no harm in
using this rationalization.
>my early use of industrial machine percussion, agressive
>synthesizers, electronically processed vocals, and cutting edge
>avant-garde guitar, along with complex and controversial lyrics,
>combined to form a style that would make later groups like
>Skinny Puppy, Ministry, Nine Inch Nails, and Marilyn Manson rich and foamous.
Are you claiming to have been an influence on any of these groups?
>that regard, but that still does not excuse the way that the media
>ignores Native American music in general. It was only a couple of
>years ago that they even started a category for Native American
>music at the Grammy Awards.
Preposterous.
Greg Ioannou
"JGM" <jgmc...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040109174616...@mb-m21.aol.com...
Check out Todd's website -- the address is on his postings. There is some
terrific music on it.
Greg
Todd Tamanend Clark
>
> > Todd Tamanend Clark commented:
> >
> > My early use of industrial machine percussion, aggressive
> > edge avant-garde guitar, along with complex and controversial
> > lyrics, combined to form a style that would make later groups
> > like Skinny Puppy, Ministry, Nine Inch Nails, and Marilyn
>
> Are you claiming to have been an influence on any of these groups?
Just like Little Richard was the architect of rock'n'roll, I was
the architect of cyberpunk.
My first record was released in 1975. The first Skinny Puppy album
was released in 1985, first industrial Ministry was 1986, first
Nine Inch Nails was 1989, and first Marilyn Manson was 1994.
I used to own one of the largest synthesizer collections in the
eastern United States. My gear is used on/in albums and videos by
Reznor and Manson, and that stage blood from Puppy was hard to
clean off of my instrument cases.
- - - -
TODD TAMANEND CLARK
Poet/Composer/Multi-Instrumentalist/Cultural Historian
The Monongahela River, Turtle Island
- -
Now Available:
Staff, Mask, Rattle (2-CD: Instrumental)
http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/ttc2
- - - -
"I'd sooner be Zappa and say, 'Listen you fuckers, *this* is what
*I* did, and I don't care whether you like my attitude saying it.'
That's what I am, you know, I'm a fucking *artist*."
- - John Lennon
Todd Tamanend Clark
>
> > Todd Tamanend Clark commented:
> >
> > That still does not excuse the way that the media ignores
> > years ago that they even started a category for Native
> > American music at the Grammy Awards.
>
> Preposterous.
It is a fully verifiable fact that the first grammy for Native
American music was awarded in March of 2001 to "Gathering Of
Nations Pow-Wow" [Various Artists] and was accepted by the
albums' producers Tom Bee and Douglas Spotted Eagle.
- - - -
TODD TAMANEND CLARK
Poet/Composer/Multi-Instrumentalist/Cultural Historian
The Monongahela River, Turtle Island
- -
Now Available:
Staff, Mask, Rattle (2-CD: Instrumental)
http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/ttc2
- - - -
"Because I identify with my American Indian background, my
creative expression has been enhanced and extended to others."
- - Louis W. Ballard
SavoyBG
>Just like Little Richard was the architect of rock'n'roll, I was
>the architect of cyberpunk.
LOL!!!!!!!!!
LITTLE RICHARD was popular, you wetren't, and still aren't.
It's not even like you developed a cult following like the 13th Floor Elevators
or the Chocolate Watchband.
>My gear is used on/in albums and videos by
>Reznor and Manson, and that stage blood from Puppy was hard to
>clean off of my instrument cases.
So you're the "Sam Ash" of Cyberpunk, you supply equiptment and roadie it
around for the groups.
cordially, even to those musicians in denial about their own lack of
importance.
bg
Todd Tamanend Clark
> LITTLE RICHARD was popular, you wetren't, and still aren't.
Granted, prior to the advent of the internet, I was largely just
a local phenomenon in Pennsylvania, Ohio, and West Virginia,
with some lesser degree of penetration into New York, Vermont,
Michigan, and Maryland. But many other musicians and collectors
had my records elsewhere, and they were fairly often played on
college radio worldwide.
> It's not even like you developed a cult following like the
> 13th Floor Elevators or the Chocolate Watchband.
My original vinyl records sell for hundreds of dollars each at
record conventions, and one reviewer even called me "the Roky
Erickson of Pennsylvania", which is ironic because Roky has since
left Texas and now lives in Pittsburgh with his younger brother
who is a classical musician.
- - - -
TODD TAMANEND CLARK
Poet/Composer/Multi-Instrumentalist/Cultural Historian
The Monongahela River, Turtle Island
- -
Now Available:
Staff, Mask, Rattle (2-CD: Instrumental)
http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/ttc2
- - - -
"I'm a controversial artist, one who dares to have an opinion
and bothers to create music and videos that challenge people's
ideas in a world that is watered-down and hollow."
- - Marilyn Manson
SavoyBG
>My original vinyl records sell for hundreds of dollars each at
>record conventions
Proving how few copies were around.
There are LOADS of R & B vocal group records that sell for thousands of
dollars, most of them by groups that nobody knows anything about, and that were
total bombs when they were out.
An album becoming a collector's item does not in any way prove that it had any
influence on any musicians, in fact, it's more often the opposite.
I was in the business of selling records to collectors from the mid 70s to
around 1990, and I never once heard your name mentioned, never saw your records
on anybody's want list, never saw your records listed for sale on any auctions,
or at any record shows I went to, either as a customer or as a dealer.
I still sell records to collectors now, although only once in a while. I'm not
real active like I once was, but I've still never seen your stuff mentioned
anywhere.
People were paying good money for Chocolate Watchband albums and 13th Floor
Elevator albums in the late 70s. Same thing with lots of other stuff, but
again, none of my customers ever mentioned your name, and I never saw any of
your records listed in any price guides or anything like that either.
If it's true that they are selling for high prices, it must be in the last 10
years or so that this has happened.
>Granted, prior to the advent of the internet, I was largely just
>a local phenomenon in Pennsylvania, Ohio, and West Virginia,
>with some lesser degree of penetration into New York, Vermont,
>Michigan, and Maryland.
Can you show us some proof of what you claim.
1 - A radio station survey with one of your songs listed.
2 - An article about your local success from a newspaper.
Todd Lucas
>Can you show us some proof of what you
>claim.
>1 - A radio station survey with one of your
>songs listed.
>2 - An article about your local success from a
>newspaper.
Mike G. wrote:
>Can you supply any webpage which touts your
>importance, which *isn't* directly fed by your
>own bombastic input?
It's so nice to see you two working towards the same ends.
Todd
SavoyBG
>Bruce G. wrote:
>Mike G. wrote:
>It's so nice to see you two working towards the same ends.
Mike is actually my brother, little Mikey Grossberg, we just thought we'd have
some fun with you unsuspecting gullables around here.
When were kids we played cowboys and indians all the time, but both of us
always wanted to be the cowboys, so here's our chance to both be the cowboys
and gang up on the indian :-)
Todd Tamanend Clark
> > Todd Tamanend Clark said:
> >
> > My original vinyl records sell for hundreds of dollars each
>
> Proving how few copies were around.
Granted. Probably only an average of about a thousand copies
each. But that's about par for the course for most micro-label
independent releases.
> There are LOADS of R & B vocal group records that sell for
> thousands of dollars, most of them by groups that nobody knows
> anything about, and that were total bombs when they were out.
I freely admit that none of my records were lucrative in the
realm of commerce.
> An album becoming a collector's item does not in any way prove
> that it had any influence on any musicians, in fact, it's more
> often the opposite.
It doesn't prove that it didn't either.
> I was in the business of selling records to collectors from the
> mid 70s to around 1990, and I never once heard your name
> mentioned, never saw your records on anybody's want list, never
> saw your records listed for sale on any auctions, or at any
> record shows I went to, either as a customer or as a dealer.
My most collectible record was released under the name of my
band "The Eyes", not under Todd Clark, even though I wrote
all the songs, did all the lead vocals, and played synthesizer,
theremin, and percussion.
> I still sell records to collectors now, although only once in
> a while. I'm not real active like I once was, but I've still
> never seen your stuff mentioned anywhere.
You're also the guy who never had a customer ask for a Sun Ra
album even though he released one hundred and twenty-five records,
and one of them was even on your own grandfather's Savoy label.
Look, Bruce, I respect your encyclopedic knowledge of conservative
forms of music such as blues, rhythm and blues, rockabilly, pop,
soul, bubblegum, and disco, but when it comes to the more radical
forms of music, you are pretty far out of the loop. You had never
even heard of Wayne County and many others mentioned in other
threads who are more famous than I am.
> People were paying good money for Chocolate Watchband albums and
> 13th Floor Elevator albums in the late 70s. Same thing with lots
> of other stuff, but again, none of my customers ever mentioned
> your name, and I never saw any of your records listed in any
> price guides or anything like that either.
Goldmine's Price Guide To Collectible Record Albums [Third Edition]
Page 209:
My 1979 album "We're Not Safe" is valued at three hundred dollars
in near mint, and my 1984 album "Into The Vision" is valued at
twenty dollars in near mint.
Page 282:
My 1977 album "New Gods: Aarvark Thru Zymurgy" is valued at
five hundred dollars in near mint.
> If it's true that they are selling for high prices, it must be
> in the last ten years or so that this has happened.
>
> Can you show us some proof of what you claim.
>
> 1 - A radio station survey with one of your songs listed.
The station that played my records the most was WYEP-FM in
Pittsburgh, but back during the 1970s and 1980s, I used to get
playlists in the mail from public and college radio stations all
over the world that included my songs. (Maybe some of them are
still laying around this big museum of a house somewhere.)
The two songs that got the most airplay were "Secret Sinema"
from 1980 and "Flame Over Philadelphia" from 1985.
> 2 - An article about your local success from a newspaper.
Here you go:
Morgantown Dominion Post (January 25, 2001):
http://www.dominionpost.com/a/marquee/2001/01/25/b/
Greensburg Tribune-Review (February 2, 2003):
http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/tribune-review/sundayextras/faywest/s_115691.html
Morgantown Dominion Post (February 20, 2003):
http://www.dominionpost.com/a/marquee/2003/02/20/au/
Pittsburgh Post-Gazette (March 1, 2003):
http://www.post-gazette.com/ae/20030301todd0301fnp5.asp
These are just the ones that I could find that are still up on the
internet. Many local newspapers only keep articles up for a few
weeks, as they have limited webspace. Our family scrapbook has
hundreds of articles in it from 1967 until the present.
In addition to my musical career, I've also appeared hundreds of
times on television and radio talk shows and in the news in my
role as a civil rights activist, as well as given many, many
presentations on Native American cultures in the schools from
kindergarten to college and at public festivals and pow-wows.
- - - -
TODD TAMANEND CLARK
Poet/Composer/Multi-Instrumentalist/Cultural Historian
The Monongahela River, Turtle Island
- -
Now Available:
Staff, Mask, Rattle (2-CD: Instrumental)
http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/ttc2
- - - -
"If you take the creation of music and the creation of your own life
values as your overall goal, then living becomes a musical process."
- - Cecil Taylor
SavoyBG
>You're also the guy who never had a customer ask for a Sun Ra
>album even though he released one hundred and twenty-five records,
>and one of them was even on your own grandfather's Savoy label.
But that was at one particular store. My record dealing to collectors was
worldwide, and nobody ever mentioned your name.
>My most collectible record was released under the name of my
>band "The Eyes", not under Todd Clark, even though I wrote
>all the songs, did all the lead vocals, and played synthesizer,
>theremin, and percussion.
World Theatre? New Gods?
The price guide says that it goes for $400 to $500.
Do you have any copies left?
SavoyBG
> An article about your local success from a newspaper.
>
>Here you go:
>Morgantown Dominion Post (January 25, 2001):
>Greensburg Tribune-Review (February 2, 2003):
>Morgantown Dominion Post (February 20, 2003):
>Pittsburgh Post-Gazette (March 1, 2003):
My apologies, it does seem that you have achieved a certain amount of local
notoriety. I guess it passed me by since most of it happened after my interest
in current music was about through, and because of the fact that your style
does not seem to be anything that I would like very much.
Also, I guess your stuff never really was around any NJ stores.
Now let's start working on getting you to develop a better feel for soul music.
SavoyBG
>Let's start working on getting you to develop a better feel for
>everything else.
Have you ever contributed one significant post to this group?
Have you ever started one thread that was interesting to anybody?
Todd Tamanend Clark
> > Todd Tamanend Clark said:
> >
> > My most collectible record was released under the name of my
> > band "The Eyes", not under Todd Clark, even though I wrote
> > all the songs, did all the lead vocals, and played synthesizer,
> > theremin, and percussion.
>
> World Theatre? New Gods?
>
> The price guide says that it goes for $400 to $500.
Which price guide are you using?
> Do you have any copies left?
Only enough to pass on to my six offspring, same as with my other
album (We're Not Safe, 1979) on World Theater.
Now, my later album (Into The Vision, 1984) on TMI, I still have
about a hundred of. Does your price guide list a value for it?
- - - -
TODD TAMANEND CLARK
Poet/Composer/Multi-Instrumentalist/Cultural Historian
The Monongahela River, Turtle Island
- -
Now Available:
Staff, Mask, Rattle (2-CD: Instrumental)
http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/ttc2
- - - -
"I'm concerned with the precise manipulation of word and image
to create an action, not to go out and buy Coca-Cola, but to
create an alteration in the reader's consciousness."
- - William S. Burroughs
Todd Tamanend Clark
>
> Did "Flame Over Philadelphia" reference the 1985 Philadelphia
> police assault on the MOVE house that ended up burning down
> most of a city block?
On the MOVE, my brother!
http://www.onamove.org/belief/
Free Mumia!
- - - -
TODD TAMANEND CLARK
Poet/Composer/Multi-Instrumentalist/Cultural Historian
The Monongahela River, Turtle Island
- -
Now Available:
Staff, Mask, Rattle (2-CD: Instrumental)
http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/ttc2
- - - -
"I see anarchism as the theoretical ideal to which we are all
gradually evolving to a point where everybody can tell the truth
to everybody else and nobody can get punished for it. That can
only happen without hierarchy and without people having the
authority to punish other people."
- - Robert Anton Wilson
SavoyBG
>Now, my later album (Into The Vision, 1984) on TMI, I still have
>about a hundred of. Does your price guide list a value for it?
>
I don't have the guide, I called a friend of mine who sells records on E-Bay
every week, and he looked it up for me.
Todd Tamanend Clark
>
> > J.G. McLean quoted, commented, and inquired when:
> > > Todd Tamanend Clark wrote:
> > >
> > > When I returned to making albums in the year 2000, I was
> > > much more interested in pursuing instrumental jazz, but
> > > still with a cyberpunk edge to it.
> >
> > Sounds interesting. Is any of your stuff available online or
> > are you willing to share MP3s with the newsgroup?
I'm willing to share MP3s of my own original material, but I'm not
sure how to go about doing it. Do you need special software?
(I usually don't download or upload songs on the internet. I
actually pay the artists for their work by buying their compact
discs and DVDs.)
> Check out Todd's website - the address is on his postings. There
> is some terrific music on it.
Thanks, Greg, I appreciate the kind words.
Those pages were set up for me by the staff at CD Baby, so I didn't
personally have to upload the two minute samples of each song.
- - - -
TODD TAMANEND CLARK
Poet/Composer/Multi-Instrumentalist/Cultural Historian
The Monongahela River, Turtle Island
- -
Now Available:
Staff, Mask, Rattle (2-CD: Instrumental)
http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/ttc2
- - - -
"The shaman transports listeners to upper and lower worlds where
they visit gods or consort with the dead, and jazz musicians,
like other performing artists, transport their audience to heights
and depths inaccessible through ordinary experience."
- - Neil Leonard
Todd Tamanend Clark
>
> Let's start working on getting you to develop a better feel for
> soul music.
Despite my strong preference for jazz, I actually do like a little
bit of soul music every now and then.
Therefore, I'll offer you a deal.
If you agree to seriously listen to these albums from another of
my favorite genres (Mexican orchestral music), I'll likewise
agree to listen to an equivalent number of soul albums of
your choosing.
Latin American Fiesta - Leonard Bernstein
Musica Mexicana: Volume Two - Various Composers
The Night Of The Mayas - Silvestre Revueltas
- - - -
TODD TAMANEND CLARK
Poet/Composer/Multi-Instrumentalist/Cultural Historian
The Monongahela River, Turtle Island
- -
Now Available:
Staff, Mask, Rattle (2-CD: Instrumental)
http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/ttc2
- - - -
"Revueltas did not return from hell with empty hands."
- - Tim Page
"The genius is the one who plays most like himself."
- - Thelonious Sphere Monk
SavoyBG
>If you agree to seriously listen to these albums from another of
>my favorite genres (Mexican orchestral music), I'll likewise
>agree to listen to an equivalent number of soul albums of
>your choosing.
>Latin American Fiesta - Leonard Bernstein
>Musica Mexicana: Volume Two - Various Composers
>The Night Of The Mayas - Silvestre Revueltas
I'm not really an "album" listener, I prefer to listen to a mix of music from
different artists.
You're one of the few musicians I know in your age group, who likes radical
rock and roll, and that doesn't really like much soul music.