300 Greatest Rock Songs

[The Bloomfield Buddy]

We just did a revision of the site's "Greatest Rock Songs" list. It
was long overdue, as there was not even any hip hop on the old list.

http://digitaldreamdoor.com/pages/best_songsddd.html

It will be expanding to a top 500 early in 2013, with probably an
additional 30 songs from the 50s and about 40 more each from the 60s
and 70s.

Mike should like this entry:

216. Sh-Boom - Chords / Crew Cuts

As we conceded that the Crew Cuts version does have SOME validity as a
"rock" record by listing it alongside the Chords version.

[Ray Arthur]

No room in the Top 300 for Rock and Roll's first Power Ballad?

Ray Arthur

[The Bloomfield Bloviator]

It won't even make the top 500 when we extend the list.

[Ray Arthur]

> It won't even make the top 500 when we extend the list.- Hide quoted text -


So, as far as the validity of your list goes,

It's .... :)

Ray

[The Bloomfield Buddy]

Read the criteria.

It does not do well in "acclaim." It's only the #132 song of the 1950s
on acclaimed.net, which comes out to the #1545 song of all time there.

Can you cite me some other records that you think were influenced by
"It's Only Make Believe."

I can't find anyplace that mentions the record as the first rock power
ballad, by the way.

Power ballads
Simon Frith identifies the origins of the power ballad in the
emotional singing of soul artists, particularly Ray Charles and the
adaptation of this style by figures such as Eric Burdon, Tom Jones and
Joe Cocker to produce slow tempo songs often building to a loud and
emotive chorus backed by drums, electric guitars and sometimes choirs.
According to Charles Aaron, power ballads came into existence in the
early 1970s, when rock stars attempted to convey profound messages to
audiences. He argues that the power ballad broke into the mainstream
of American consciousness in 1976 as FM radio gave a new lease of life
to earlier songs like Led Zeppelin's "Stairway to Heaven" (1971),
Aerosmith's "Dream On" (1973), and Lynyrd Skynyrd's "Free Bird" (1974).
[46] Other notable examples include Nazareth's version of "Love
Hurts" (1975), Foreigner's "I Want to Know What Love Is" and Scorpions
"Still Loving You" (both 1984), Heart's "What About Love" (1985), and
Whitesnake's "Is This Love" (1987).

It's also not among the top 200 Rock Ballads on this list:

http://www.digitaldreamdoor.com/pages/best_balladsddd.html

It's also not on any significant all time rock song list. Not on the
Rolling Stone List, not on the R&R Hall Of Fame List, not on the RIAA
list....nothing.

Dave Marsh ranked it as the #689 rock or aoul single of all time in a
25 year old book, By now, with all of the modern stufff that has
passes it by, plus all of the album tracks that Marsh did not
consider, it's probably down near #1000 of all time, which is about
right IMO.

If you want me to get that song on the list you're gonna have to show
me some objective evidence of its significance, beyond your own
personal opinion.

[The Bloomfield Buddy]

The list will be expanding to 500 songs early next year. Here's how I
rank the remaining 50s items:

I see everything in the top 30 here as definitely making the top 500.

1. Folsom Prison Blues - Johnny Cash and the Tennessee Two
2. La Bamba - Ritchie Valens / Los Lobos
3. You Send Me - Sam Cooke
4. School Day - Chuck Berry
5. Lucille - Little Richard
6. All I Have To Do Is Dream - Everly Brothers
7. There Goes My Baby - Drifters
8. Wake Up Little Susie - Everly Brothers
9. I've Got A Woman - Ray Charles
10. Rave On - Buddy Holly

11. Money - Barrett Strong / Beatles
12. Who Do You Love - Bo Diddley
13. Rumble - Link Wray
14. Rocking Pneumonia and the Boogie Woogie Flu - Huey "Piano" Smith &
the Clowns
15. Kansas City - Wilbert Harrison
16. Lonely Teardrops - Jackie Wilson
17. Sincerely - Moonglows
18. Crying In The Chapel - Orioles / Elvis Presley
19. Matchbox - Carl Perkins
20. I Put A Spell On You - Screamin' Jay Hawkins

21. At The Hop - Danny & the Juniors
22. Honky Tonk - Bill Doggett
23. Only You - Platters
24. Jim Dandy - LaVern Baker
25. Rebel Rouser - Duane Eddy
26. Tequila - Champs
27. C'mon Everybody - Eddie Cochran
28. Love Potion No. 9 - Clovers / Searchers
29. Willie And The Hand Jive - Johnny Otis Show
30. Do You Want To Dance - Bobby Freeman / Beach Boys / Ramones

And I see the next 5 or 6 as borderline possibilities.

31. Keep A' Knockin' - Little Richard
32. Susie Q - Dale Hawkins / Creedence Clearwater Revival
33. Come Go With Me - Del-Vikings
34. Searchin' - Coasters
35. I'm Walkin' - Fats Domino
36. Chantilly Lace - Big Bopper

And those below, while great, I don't see as worthy of an all time top
500 over the course of 65 years of rock and roll (1948-2012). That's
an average of less than 8 songs per year.


37. Let The Good Times Roll - Shirley & Lee
38. Rip It Up - Little Richard
39. Goodnite, Sweetheart, Goodnite - Spaniels
40. White Christmas - Drifters featuring Clyde McPhatter

41. Poison Ivy - Coasters
42. Since I Don't Have You - Skyliners
43. Work With Me Annie - Hank Ballard & the Midnighters
44. Gee - Crows
45. C.C. Rider - Chuck Willis
46. Hang Up My Rock And Roll Shoes - Chuck Willis
47. Sea Cruise - Frankie Ford
48. Little Darlin' - Diamonds
49. Rock-In Robin - Bobby Day / Michael Jackson
50. Blue Monday - Fats Domino

51. It's Only Make Believe - Conway Twitty
52. Have Mercy Baby - Dominoes
53. Reelin And Rocking - Chuck Berry
54. Not Fade Away - Buddy Holly and the Crickets / Rolling Stones
55. Speedoo - Cadillacs

[Michael Pendragon]

While I appreciate your inclusion of this record -- not to mention
your granting it "SOME validity" -- I believe that such a strong
contender for the coveted title of "The First Rock 'n' Roll Record"
should place in the Top 10 on historical significance alone.

We also have wildly divergent view as to what "rock 'n' roll" is. For
example I do not consider your #2 pick, Aretha Franklin's "Respect" to
be "rock 'n' roll" by any stretch of the definition. Your #3 pick,
Led Zepplin's "Stairway to Heaven," has only slightly more of a case,
as "classic rock" can claim to be descended from "r'n'r."

In fact, I would only consider 4 of your Top 10 to be "r'n'r" records;
and this ratio decreases further as the list goes on.

Your inclusion of "Billie Jean" at #9 makes me wish I could blast
Digital Dream Door clean outta cyberspace.

Sorry ... Music should be listed alongside of Religion and Politics as
a topic that people can set even the most courteous of men at odds.

Your list is ... (gag) ... interesting ...

[SixStringStu]

"Michael Pendragon" <michaelmalef...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:21d23c24-0174-4199...@e5g2000yqa.googlegroups.com...

On Aug 7, 6:21 pm, The Bloomfield Buddy <Savo...@aol.com> wrote:
> We just did a revision of the site's "Greatest Rock Songs" list. It
> was long overdue, as there was not even any hip hop on the old list.
>
> http://digitaldreamdoor.com/pages/best_songsddd.html
>
> It will be expanding to a top 500 early in 2013, with probably an
> additional 30 songs from the 50s and about 40 more each from the 60s
> and 70s.
>
> Mike should like this entry:
>
> 216. Sh-Boom - Chords / Crew Cuts
>
> As we conceded that the Crew Cuts version does have SOME validity as a
> "rock" record by listing it alongside the Chords version.

While I appreciate your inclusion of this record -- not to mention
your granting it "SOME validity" -- I believe that such a strong
contender for the coveted title of "The First Rock 'n' Roll Record"
should place in the Top 10 on historical significance alone.

We also have wildly divergent view as to what "rock 'n' roll" is. For
example I do not consider your #2 pick, Aretha Franklin's "Respect" to
be "rock 'n' roll" by any stretch of the definition. Your #3 pick,
Led Zepplin's "Stairway to Heaven," has only slightly more of a case,
as "classic rock" can claim to be descended from "r'n'r."

____________

What exactly was Classic Rock, before it achieved classic status?

[Michael Pendragon]

On Aug 8, 5:04 pm, "SixStringStu" <hawkinnc45REM...@hotmail.com>
wrote:
> "Michael Pendragon" <michaelmaleficapendra...@gmail.com> wrote in message

Good question.

It's several steps removed from rock 'n' roll -- far enough removed to
constitute a separate genre.

Let's put it this way: No one would ever mistake Zed Lepplin music for
50s style rock 'n' roll.

[Dean F.]

I'm surprised that song #71 cites Wynonie Harris only. Didn't you
consider Elvis' remake worthy of inclusion as well?

I'm also glad that Cee Lo Green made the list! That's easily the best
top forty hit I've heard since song #35.

[wereoawl]

"The Bloomfield Buddy" <Sav...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:dd4317a0-6aec-4b01...@f2g2000vbm.googlegroups.com...

Rock 'n' roll is a crock of shit!

[BobbyM]

But don't expect a person who doesn't know what rock & roll is to give
you a good answer.

>
> It's several steps removed from rock 'n' roll -- far enough removed to
> constitute a separate genre.
>
> Let's put it this way: No one would ever mistake Zed Lepplin music for
> 50s style rock 'n' roll.

Caveat emptor. Pendragon is a guy who wouldn't consider Led Zeppelin's
song, "Rock & Roll" a rock & roll record but would consider Kay
Starr's, "Rock & Roll Waltz", a rock & roll classic. Pendragon
outrightly dismisses "Respect"; obviously, he knows more about gerbils
than rock & roll.

[Dean F.]

On Aug 8, 5:04 pm, "SixStringStu" <hawkinnc45REM...@hotmail.com>
wrote:

> What exactly was Classic Rock, before it achieved classic status?

It was called AOR: Album Oriented Rock.

[The Bloomfield Buddy]

On Aug 8, 11:54 pm, "Dean F." <soulexpr...@gmail.com> wrote:

> I'm surprised that song #71 cites Wynonie Harris only. Didn't you
> consider Elvis' remake worthy of inclusion as well?

Not quite, no. While I personally think it's one of the greatest
records anybody ever made, based on the criteria, Elvis's version
doesn't measure up. It had no initial popularity, and little lasting
popularity. As for acclaim, "Mystery Train" and "That's All Right are
both in the top 120 on the Rolling Stone Top 500 song list, "Good
Rockin' Tonight" is not on the top 500 at all. Same thing on the R&R
hall Of Fame list. We'd probably be more likely to list Roy Brown's
version.

> I'm also glad that Cee Lo Green made the list! That's easily the best
> top forty hit I've heard since song #35.

You like the Nirvana thing? I think it's terrible. But huge.

[Travis_Trite]

> > I'm also glad that Cee Lo Green made the list! That's easily the best
> > top forty hit I've heard since song #35.

> You like the Nirvana thing? I think it's terrible. But huge.

Machinehead, by Bush, is better

[The Bloomfield Buddy]

The only bush you know about is the kind that you've never been able
to get.

[Travis_Trite]

>
> "The Bloomfield Buddy" <Sav...@aol.com> wrote in message

> news:f39e30ca-1a79-4d37...@w14g2000vbx.googlegroups.com...

Good one. I have no comeback

[Dean F.]

On Aug 9, 12:19 am, BobbyM <masseybNOS...@hotmail.com> wrote:

> Caveat emptor.  Pendragon is a guy who wouldn't consider Led Zeppelin's
> song, "Rock & Roll" a rock & roll record but would consider  Kay
> Starr's, "Rock & Roll Waltz", a rock & roll classic.  Pendragon
> outrightly dismisses "Respect"; obviously, he knows more about gerbils
> than rock & roll.

What Pendragon knows about rock 'n' roll wouldn't fill a Post-It Note.

[SixStringStu]

"Michael Pendragon" <michaelmalef...@gmail.com> wrote in message

news:66b1a76b-14cc-46a5...@y1g2000vbx.googlegroups.com...

________________________


Thank you for the very biased opinion but I was looking for educated
honesty.
I distinctly remember Led Zepplin being played on "Rock and Roll" radio
stations.

Better for you to treat my original question as one that was rhetorical in
nature.

[SixStringStu]

"Dean F." <soule...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:cd2120b1-dbf6-48c9...@n18g2000yqn.googlegroups.com...

_____________________

Thankfully we had radio to keep the songs to a reasonable length. On some of
those albums there were only a couple of tracks because of the long drawn
out solo's by the 1st, 2nd guitar the organ and the drummer.

But seriously, was it called AOR back then , or was the label given post
period? I seem to remember the old folks calling it "that damned Rock and
Roll". Me and my friends called it Rock and "Roll" seemed to be used less.
Case in point: The Capt. and Teniel were Soft Rock, James Taylor and Carly
Simon were not making the same upbeat sounds as Led Zepplin or dark and
aggressive stuff like Alice Cooper or Black Sabbath. Yet all are lumped into
the parent genre' as Rock and Roll. Why, because they are not polkas or
waltzes?

[Michael Pendragon]

On Aug 9, 12:19 am, BobbyM <masseybNOS...@hotmail.com> wrote:

"Rock & Roll Waltz" fittingly mixes r'n'r and traditional pop styles
to reflect both the song's story and the sometimes uneasy
intergenerational ties between parent and child. The end result is
neither entirely r'n'r or pop, but is definitely a classic.

I don't know Zep's "Rock & Roll," and don't want to.

> Pendragon
> outrightly dismisses "Respect"; obviously, he knows more about gerbils
> than rock & roll.

"Respect" is a gospel styled number -- and gospel in it's most
negative form. Aretha Franklin's delivery is virtually a sustained
screech. Not only isn't it r'n'r, but it's several degrees short of
music.

[Michael Pendragon]

Unlike yourself, I know where the genre begins and ends.

[Michael Pendragon]

On Aug 9, 8:34 am, "SixStringStu" <hawkinnc45REM...@hotmail.com>

I did.

But seeing how your implied conclusion was faulty, I attempted to set
you straight. So much for good deeds.

[Bob Roman]

On Aug 9, 8:52 am, "SixStringStu" <hawkinnc45REM...@hotmail.com>
wrote:

> But seriously, was it called AOR back then , or was the label given post
> period?

I knew the term in the 1970s. According to Wikipedia, the name was
coined by Radio & Records magazine in the early part of that decade.

--
BR

[The Bloomfield Buddy]

Bob, nice to hear from you. It's been awhile since you stopped by here
in our wonderful 1950s Music Newsgroup. Always great to hear from one
of the old timers here, a member who was posting here even before
yours truly arrived.

Hopefully you'll have time to stop by more often in the future. Your
contributions to this group have always been very valuable and
appreciated. Hope all is well in Hoboken. Next time I am officating a
game in town maybe you can stop by and say hello. I was there at the
high school twice for basketball this past winter.

Stay well.

[SixStringStu]

"Bob Roman" <robert...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:caaf3171-4f3a-436d...@b10g2000vbj.googlegroups.com...

Label was coined durring the era, ok.
Hey thanks for the answer! :-)

[The Bloomfield Bloviator]

On Aug 9, 4:58 pm, poisoned rose <pro...@poisonedrose.com> wrote:

> "Travis_Trite" <Travis_Tr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Machinehead, by Bush, is better
>

> Eww. There were a lot of new bands flying around during the grunge
> movement, but it was pretty easy to tell which ones were the real deal
> and which ones were the poseurs. Bush: poseurs. Candlebox was another
> notorious example. Papa Roach, Collective Soul, Our Lady Peace,
> Silverchair...a few other names. Stone Temple Pilots arrived as poseurs
> but half-validated themselves with subsequent albums.

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ

[Travis_Trite]

> > Machinehead, by Bush, is better
>

> Eww. There were a lot of new bands flying around during the grunge
> movement, but it was pretty easy to tell which ones were the real deal
> and which ones were the poseurs.


> Bush: poseurs.

I don't care whether they were poseurs. All that matters is what comes out
of the speakers. I like Machinehead and Come Down. Glycerine is oppressive,
but okay to hear once every 3-6 years. And, like I said, I think Machinehead
is as good as or better than any particular Nirvana song, though Nirvana
have a lot more good ones.


> Candlebox was another

See above. I like Far Behind, but haven't listened to the two albs I have


> Papa Roach

I have a couple songs somewhere but I don't know them


> Collective Soul

Two halfway decent songs I know of, Shine and Precious Declaration



> Our Lady Peace

Don't know



> Silverchair

Have the (hit) album, haven't listened to it. Have lost my auditory memory
of whatever their hit song was. They were tykes.


> Stone Temple Pilots


Far and away the best of all those bands; only competition is Alice in
Chains, though 10 by Pearl Jam is pretty strong; and Nirvana I hold a little
apart from the rest

The people who originated the prejudices you voice above, I think, didn't
have a good way of approaching what they were talking about. I'm not saying
I was or am immune to it, but I view it as cobwebs to be cleared away.

[The Bloomfield Bloviator]

On Aug 9, 5:32 pm, "Travis_Trite" <Travis_Tr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Eric Broomedick wrote......

>
> > > Machinehead, by Bush, is better
>
> > Eww. There were a lot of new bands flying around during the grunge
> > movement, but it was pretty easy to tell which ones were the real deal
> > and which ones were the poseurs.
> > Bush: poseurs.
>
> I don't care whether they were poseurs. All that matters is what comes out
> of the speakers.

TELL HIM, TRAVIS !!!

[Travis_Trite]

> > The people who originated the prejudices you voice above, I think,
> > didn't
> > have a good way of approaching what they were talking about.
>

> It's not prejudice...it's just observing who naturally gravitated toward
> the sound and who belatedly perceived it as "marketable."

It's an argument ad hominem. I don't like it and I never have. I didn't like
it when Keith Emerson was being criticized for being able to play well.

Your boy Elvis Costello (Joe Jackson and some others) could be called
opportunists who modified their pub rock sound to new wave. New Wave itself
was accused of sell-out. People change their sound because they get excited
about what's happening around them. They thought they should play punk but
now it's okay to inject some metal. If you read about the smarmy acts, they
usually grew out of real and organic "scenes," it's just that the culture of
those scenes was based on making it. Hair metal. I don't feel qualified to
evaluate these things on moral grounds, and I wonder how you think you are.
Maybe you are. Have you interviewed Creed or Train-like bands?

I'm just always more suspicious of critically and socially driven groupthink
than the way bands play music. Bands have to learn to play together, merge
their tastes, create a sound, figure out who should sing, write. These are
difficult. Meanwhile what takes less effort is that each quarter-generation
of wannabe cool kids has to find something to make their own and think about
their music as if it's 1955 or 1977. It isn't. We've been through this
dozens of times.


> the latter types (like Bush) had a very short day in the sun, while some
> other acts like Nirvana, Pearl Jam, Soundgarden and Alice in Chains are
> quite durable. Personally, I also like Mudhoney, Helmet, Dinosaur Jr.
> (they're more "proto-grunge"), Afghan Whigs, Hole, Screaming Trees/Mark
> Lanegan and SOME Green River. And nowadays, Queens of the Stone Age are
> carrying the torch quite well.

I'm okay with all that, but why fault a band for making only one decent
album? Gavin Rossdale stopped playing music because he was too good-looking
and could just become an auto-celebrity. He wrote one good song and that's
good enough for me. I don't fault ? and the Mysterians for not following up
96 Tears. I just enjoy 96 Tears.

[Jim Colegrove]

Stu, I'll take a stab at this. It was called "progressive rock" by
some in the late 1960s when FM DJs were given a wide path to play what
they wanted. The term "classic rock" seems to me to have come sometime
in the 1970s. I lived and worked in NYC from 1967 to 1970 and there
was no "classic rock" as far as I can recall. None of my friends that
are still around from then recall it either. Tom Donahue in San
Francisco had a large roll in this movement. And yes, most simply
referred to it as "rock" at the time. In my memory,







Jim Colegrove
www.thecoolgroove.com

[Way Back Jack]

The Bloomfield Buddy <Sav...@aol.com> wrote in news:dd4317a0-6aec-4b01-
a8bd-d45...@f2g2000vbm.googlegroups.com:

> We just did a revision of the site's "Greatest Rock Songs" list. It
> was long overdue, as there was not even any hip hop on the old list.
>
> http://digitaldreamdoor.com/pages/best_songsddd.html
>
> It will be expanding to a top 500 early in 2013, with probably an
> additional 30 songs from the 50s and about 40 more each from the 60s
> and 70s.
>
> Mike should like this entry:
>
> 216. Sh-Boom - Chords / Crew Cuts
>
> As we conceded that the Crew Cuts version does have SOME validity as a
> "rock" record by listing it alongside the Chords version.

Here's my Top Pick In Honor of SixStringStu and his classy bride (was: 300
Greatest Rock Songs)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qh9ZZgDqzAg

James Stuart Hodges, aka SixStringStu, is a life-long societal parasite,
a Christian hypocrite, a pathological liar and a self-proclaimed sociopath
who has a long criminal record and several felony arrests, one of which got
him locked up by the Feds in a loony bin. Loony-bin boy also fathered a
child who was murdered because the woman who he impregnated didn't want to
spend the best years of her life rasing the illegitimate child of a
criminal freak.

James Styart Hodges
1442 SW Haygood Loop
Lake City, FL 32025
(386) 438-8968
http://tinyurl.com/6tbq5ap


At age 50, loony-bin boy searched every flop house, whore house, out house,
dog house and trailer park on the east coast, and found his perfect bride.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/71847494@N08/?saved=1
http://s1120.photobucket.com/albums/l487/wesolouseki/
http://www.facebook.com/people/Suzanne-Roberta-Hodges/100001276048983

Isn't she classy?

[Curmudgeon]

In article <i0j828lmkp5om3sgu...@4ax.com>, Jim Colegrove

Jim, my memory insists that the "progressive" label was applied to Yes
and Emerson, Lake, & Palmer and people like that. We called the new FM
free-form stations "underground" from their debut in late '67 until the
advent of fairly tight formatting in the mid-'70s. I was the midnight
man at KFIG-FM ("Rock 101"), Fresno from '72 until '75. When I began,
I could play pretty much whatever I wanted, but by the time I left, the
scene had changed and not at all for the better: I was being asked/told
to play Anne Murray at 4:00 in the morning, and that just went against
my grain so I went back to college (and the freedom of college radio).

The "AOR" label might have been batted around at that time but I don't
remember hearing it, nor did I hear the (stupid) term "classic rock" in
my years in the biz.

For what it's worth, Wikipedia says that the "AOR" label was hatched in
the mid-'70s and that "classic rock" succeeded it in the early '80s.

--

Cheers!

Mudge

"And if California slides into the ocean like the mystics and
statistics say it will, I predict this hotel will be standing
until I pay my bill."

[BobbyM]

Wasn't "classic rock" really dreamed up just to differentiate it from
the other oldies r&r music (music from the 50's & early 60's)? Primarily
radio stations that wanted to market to a younger audience?

[The Bloomfield Bloviator]

On Aug 9, 7:40 pm, "Travis_Trite" <Travis_Tr...@gmail.com> wrote:

> I don't fault ? and the Mysterians for not following up
> 96 Tears. I just enjoy 96 Tears.

They did followup 96 Tears, with a couple of pretty good hits, like
"Can't Get Enough Of You Baby.."

[Travis_Trite]

>> It's an argument ad hominem. I don't like it and I never have. I didn't
>> like
>> it when Keith Emerson was being criticized for being able to play well.
>

> No, it isn't. Bush's falseness can be heard in the music.

I like to tweak music critics. One of my "sources" is a pretty important one
of those and I've tweaked him with Bush.

So once again, mission accomplished.

But it's all good. It's only rock 'n' roll.

I'm glad you're here. I like your website.

One of my aphorisms is that after the Beatles and Otis Redding won over the
parents' generation, ideological conflict *within* the r'n'r fanbase became
something akin to a product. The opportunity for identity formation. It
happens but I'm pretty sure it's damaging to the quality of the music.

I used to look down on deadheads, now deadheads are some of my best friends.

>> Your boy Elvis Costello (Joe Jackson and some others) could be called
>> opportunists who modified their pub rock sound to new wave.
>

> Considering that Costello has proved himself one of the most
> stylistically versatile, adventurous artists ever. I think it's tough to
> accuse him of being someone who just cheaply switched from one sound to
> a second one.

I'm saying the "switchers" are just getting excited by what's going on.

I feel one would be hard pressed to come up with a clear example of cheap
switching (Y Can't Tori Read?), so I don't see why people would be so keen
on finding it. Seems like a worthless distraction. Huge ambition drives (or
drove) the business.

I feel for bands from the 90s forward, whose chances of being even Debbie
Harry are so slim.

[Travis_Trite]

> > I don't fault ? and the Mysterians for not following up
> > 96 Tears. I just enjoy 96 Tears.
>
> They did followup 96 Tears, with a couple of pretty good hits, like
> "Can't Get Enough Of You Baby.."

You'll howl but I only know that from the Colour Field version.

[SixStringStu]

"Jim Colegrove" <co...@thecoolgroove.com> wrote in message
news:i0j828lmkp5om3sgu...@4ax.com...

That was my reccolection as well, that the popular music was called just
plain old rock, durring the late 60's up till when Disco ravaged everyones
senses and left the field open for Hair Bands and then Pop culture.
That post rock period alone is what made the era so classic, IMO.
I can even buy into the AOR concept because it was also the era of
individual artists, Mainly guitar and drums with a smattering of organ,
being given long solo space to showcase their talents.
Thanks for the input folks.

[tr...@iwvisp.com]

From an east coast perspective, I worked middays at WMGM-FM Atlantic City in 1972. We were billed/labeled/promoted as AOR: Album Oriented Radio, or as our detractors referred to us, "All Over the Radio." Big LP library. The playlist was broad and the guidelines were pretty loose. Know the music, build and blend the sets, don't bring any music in, play the marked cuts, solict requests, don't play requestas, etc.!

Ray Arthur

[Dean F.]

On Aug 9, 7:55 pm, Jim Colegrove <co...@thecoolgroove.com> wrote:

> Tom Donahue in San Francisco had a large roll in this movement.

Was it a sesame seed roll? A kaiser roll, perhaps?

[Bob Roman]

On Aug 9, 1:39 pm, The Bloomfield Buddy <Savo...@aol.com> wrote:

> Bob, nice to hear from you. It's been awhile since you stopped by here
> in our wonderful 1950s Music Newsgroup. Always great to hear from one
> of the old timers here, a member who was posting here even before
> yours truly arrived.

I've been watching your performance all week, and enjoying it. Good
luck with the new persona as long as it lasts.

--
BR

[Travis_Trite]

> That was my reccolection as well, that the popular music was called just
> plain old rock, durring the late 60's up till when


Disco ravaged everyones
> senses

What can your world be worth if it can be torn asunder by Gloria Gaynor and
Barry Gibb?

[Travis_Trite]

>>> It's an argument ad hominem. I don't like it and I never have. I didn't
>>> like
>>> it when Keith Emerson was being criticized for being able to play well.
>>
>> No, it isn't. Bush's falseness can be heard in the music.
>
> I like to tweak music critics. One of my "sources" is a pretty important
> one of those and I've tweaked him with Bush.
>
> So once again, mission accomplished.

I read a great thing long ago. Music critic at a Rush concert
self-deprecatingly reports on how he cornered a fan in the restroom and
asked how the guy could tolerate Geddy Lee's voice.

That's what music criticism is -- cornering a fan in the restroom at a Rush
concert

Personally I love it, but it should know its place

[Michael Pendragon]

Evil is evil. You might as well ask what the world could be worth if
Adolf Hitler could tear it to shreds.

[Travis_Trite]

> > > That was my reccolection as well, that the popular music was called
> > > just
> > > plain old rock, durring the late 60's up till when
> >
> > Disco ravaged everyones
> >
> > > senses
> >
> > What can your world be worth if it can be torn asunder by Gloria Gaynor
> > and
> > Barry Gibb?
>
> Evil is evil. You might as well ask what the world could be worth if
> Adolf Hitler could tear it to shreds.

You're so right. Forgot about that.

[Ray Arthur]

Bob,

That's (Wiki) factoid is interesting eskew in that R & R's first issue
was in October of 1973 but my time at AOR WMGM was a year earlier!
And thazt's why I love Wikipedia!

Ray

[The Bloomfield Buddy]

Thank you Bob, you're a very gracious man. Buddy is only operating in
the 1950s group. That's because all the long time good people here
deserve a friend like Bloomfield Buddy. The Bloviator is still as
opinionated, candid, and sharp tongued as ever in the 60s and 70s
groups.

Stay well.

[Ray Arthur]

On Aug 10, 3:14 pm, The Bloomfield Buddy <Savo...@aol.com> wrote:
> On Aug 10, 6:00 pm, BobbyM <masseybNOS...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > Since Bruce is being nice & probably feels guilty about bringing it up
> > although he alluded to it, I'll be his proxy on this one.  You're likely
> > to hear little if any music performed by Black artists on classic rock
> > stations.  They might play the Chambers Brothers' "Time Has Come Today"
> > (everybody but the drummer was Black).  These are typically the "white
> > guys with guitars" stations that Bruce & Dean talk about.
>
> That's true Bob. like MTV when it began, those stations were deathly
> afraid of attracting black listeners, fearful that their advertisers
> would not want that. Other than Jimi Hendrix, whose was the black
> leader of a band that was 2/3 white, they rarely played any music by
> any black acts. Not even black artists with some guitar rock
> credibility like Sly and the Family Stone or Prince.
>
> Somehow they have sold the white public on the idea that black music
> of the 60s (Wilson Pickett, Temptations, Sam & Dave) is not rock, but
> the white music of non rocking artists like James Taylor and Jimmy
> Buffet, is.

Without getting too far into semantical definitions, if we're talking
about AOR / Free Form in the late '60's to mid '70's many stations did
have a mix of two sub genres: album rock and folk rock. While SATFS
started charting in '68 much of their commercial music was soul/dance
oriented and didn't fit either folk rock or album rock. Plus, all the
black artists you mentioned were saturating all the Top 40 & R & B
stations and this new format was finding its own path. Prince didn't
arrive until the very later '70's. As the format morphed into
progressive and/or classic rock, its playlists became better defined.
The reality is that from the '70's through today there are very few
artists and bands of color whose music fits the now Classic Rock
format. We have two Classic Rock stations and I occasionally hear
hear Hendrix, Chambers Brothers, Prince, plus other mixed race acts
like Toto, Redbone, Santana, etc. I don't think it is or ever was a
conscious effort to be white, IMO time defined the format, and the
acts that filled the playlist happened to be mostly white.

Ray Arthur

PS

[The Bloomfield Buddy]

"Happened?"

That's total hosreshit..

Why doesn't "I Want To Take You Higher" fit the "album rock" format?

It was good enough to be huge at Woodstock, why not on "album rock"
radio?

Don't be fooled by these ploys, Ray. It was all about not wanting to
attract black listeners, who at that time were not wanted by
advertisers, who perceived that blacks did not have money to spend, as
most of them were on welfare (in their bigoted minds).

There's no "musical" reason why "In The Midnight Hour" and "Cloud
Nine" and "Everyday People" and many other rock records by black acts
did not fit their format.

Do you deny that that format was designed to only attract white
listeners?

The joke in the industry for years was that AOR stood for Appartheid
Oriented Radio.

[The Bloomfield Bloviator]

On Aug 10, 7:02 pm, Ray Arthur <fresnof...@gmail.com> wrote:
>

> Without getting too far into semantical definitions, if we're talking
> about AOR / Free Form in the late '60's to mid '70's many stations did
> have a mix of two sub genres: album rock and folk rock.  While SATFS
> started charting in '68 much of their commercial music was soul/dance
> oriented and didn't fit either folk rock or album rock.

So why do black styles of rock like soul and funk not fit the "album"
rock format?

Don't kid yourself, Ray. There's only one reason. They don't fit that
format because they are "black" styles of rock.

When white rock stars do records in one of those black styles, all of
a sudden they DO fit the format. Things like "Miss You" by the Stones
and "You Are In My System" by Robert Palmer were played on those
stations.

Why is Palmer's almost identical sounding version of "You Are In My
System" fit the album rock format, but the System version of the song
does not?

Why did "What A Fool Believes" fit that format, but not loads of
similar sounding records by black acts?

The whole thing is a crock, and I'm surprised that you would attempt
to defend it.

[Jim Colegrove]

Let's just say I'm with the Bloomfield Buddy on this one.


Jim Colegrove
www.thecoolgroove.com

[Jim Colegrove]

Wait, he's the Bloviator again! Any event I agree with his position.



Jim Colegrove
www.thecoolgroove.com

[Ray Arthur]

I'm not defending anything. I'm giving you the perspective of someone
who spent 36 years on the radio and a few brief years in that format.
My experience may be anecdotal but your two thin examples, Stones and
Palmer, are reed thin. I may be incorrect but I have never heards
"What a Fool Believes" by McDonald on a Classic Rock station. Top 40
some, mostly AC.

So, you're suggesting that radio stations, who were at that time 100
percent dependent on advertising for revenue, made a conscious
decision to NOT include popular music by popular Black artists that
fit the Classic Rock format (so far, no examples) because? The black
music that fits the format would drive white listeners/advertisers
away? The additional black listeners would drive down the property
value of the transmitter shack? I can't see the conspiracy here?

Ray

[Mark Dintenfass]

In article <q48b28h2laujncas1...@4ax.com>, Jim Colegrove

So am I. I remember vividly how frustrating it was when the wonderful
multi-genre and multi-ethnic playlists of radio stations in the middle
sixties quite quickly splintered into stations playing limited
playlists aimed at specific demographic groups, which led to the
splintering of the music itself in the 70s. Or, to put it another way,
the integrating forces in music spawned by the coming of r'n'r, and
certified by the way soul, Motown, Brit rock, California rock, pop,
folk, and even some jazz might all be played on one station during the
same hour, were reversed and a new segregated kind of radio was
spawned. The major impulse behind the change was no doubt commercial,
but the commercial considerations were obviously driven by
considerations of race, especially as black music and black performers
got caught up in the racial politics of the time.

--
--md
_________
Remove xx's from address to reply

[The Bloomfield Buddy]

On Aug 10, 8:18 pm, Ray Arthur <fresnof...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> So, you're suggesting that radio stations, who were at that time 100
> percent dependent on advertising for revenue, made a conscious
> decision to NOT include popular music by popular Black artists that
> fit the Classic Rock format (so far, no examples) because?

And why does "Everyday People" not fit the "Clasic Rock" format?

What about "I Want To Take You Higher?" If it was good enough to be
huge at Woodstock, why would it not fir the "album rock" format?

Only one reason. It's a "black" style of rock rather than a "white"
style of rock.

The black
> music that fits the format would drive white listeners/advertisers
> away? The additional black listeners would drive down the property
> value of the transmitter shack?  I can't see the conspiracy here?
>

> Ray- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

[The Bloomfield Buddy]

On Aug 10, 8:33 pm, Mark Dintenfass <mdintenf...@xxnew.rr.com> wrote:
> In article <q48b28h2laujncas13mrgb45f41s1em...@4ax.com>, Jim Colegrove

It's common knowledge that in those days (the late 60s) it was still
considered very bad business to feature a bkack person on a cover of a
magazine, or as the lead actor on a TV show, etc....so why would Ray
not believe that the money people who were calling te shots at these
big time radio stations felt the same way? They did not want to risk
their money on black,

I still fail to see why he thinks that the black style of rock at that
time (soul) did not fit this format, but all the white styles of rock
(folk rock, prog, metal, hard rock) did.

Did black artists not make albums?

"Album rock" is just a code word for "white rock,"

[Michael Pendragon]

On Aug 10, 7:19 pm, The Bloomfield Bloviator <Savo...@aol.com> wrote:
> On Aug 10, 7:02 pm, Ray Arthur <fresnof...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > Without getting too far into semantical definitions, if we're talking
> > about AOR / Free Form in the late '60's to mid '70's many stations did
> > have a mix of two sub genres: album rock and folk rock.  While SATFS
> > started charting in '68 much of their commercial music was soul/dance
> > oriented and didn't fit either folk rock or album rock.
>
> So why do black styles of rock like soul and funk not fit the "album"
> rock format?

You've just answered your own question: because they're "soul" and
"funk."

[Bob Roman]

On Aug 10, 12:11 pm, The Bloomfield Buddy <Savo...@aol.com> wrote:

> Buddy is only operating in
> the 1950s group. That's because all the long time good people here
> deserve a friend like Bloomfield Buddy. The Bloviator is still as
> opinionated, candid, and sharp tongued as ever in the 60s and 70s
> groups.

It doesn't matter if we notice or appreciate the difference between
your personas. All that matters is what glows off the computer
screen.

--
BR

[The Bloomfield Buddy]

On Aug 11, 12:37 am, Michael Pendragon

Soul and funk are sub-genres of rock. Just as much a part of rock as
heavy metal, progressive, new wave, punk and folk rock, all of which
are played at least some on classic rock stations.

[Michael Pendragon]

They don't sound at all like rock to me.

Punk rock and folk rock are obviously sub-genres of rock. I'm not
sure what new wave and progressive are. Heavy Metal is only
orchestrated noise -- although I suppose its rock origins are still
evident.

[Way Back Jack]

"SixStringStu" <hawkinnc...@hotmail.com> wrote in
news:k00ao3$n8h$1...@dont-email.me:

>
> Thank you for the very biased opinion

By definition, all opinions are biased.
That's why they are called opinions.....DUMBO.

> but I was looking for educated honesty.

SixStringStu, the criminal, pathological liar and self-proclaimed
sociopath, who has several felony arrests and who was locked up by the Feds
in a loony bin, is demanding honesty.

Now tell me that isn't a fucking hoot.

[Way Back Jack]

"SixStringStu" <hawkinnc...@hotmail.com> wrote in
news:k00bre$tfe$1...@dont-email.me:

>
> But seriously, was it called AOR back then , or was the label given

> post period? I seem to remember the old folks calling it "that damned
> Rock and Roll". Me and my friends called it Rock and "Roll" seemed to
> be used less.

Me and my friends???

It's too bad that you weren't given a book on English grammar to study when
you were locked up by the Feds in a loony bin. What exactly did you do
other than rape your cellmate and and watch cartoons?

[The Bloomfield Buddy]

On Aug 8, 11:54 pm, "Dean F." <soulexpr...@gmail.com> wrote:

> I'm surprised that song #71 cites Wynonie Harris only. Didn't you
> consider Elvis' remake worthy of inclusion as well?

Dean, you'll be glad to know i thought about this and decided to add
Elvis as the second artist for this entry. I just sent the info to
Lew, should be listed that way by tomorrow, maybe sooner.

[Michael Pendragon]

You might also want to list Pat Boone's version which hit the #49 spot
on the Hot 100 charts -- which is a damn sight more than Wynonie
Harris and Elvis Presley's versions combined.

[The Bloomfield Buddy]

On Aug 14, 4:19 pm, Michael Pendragon

No thanks. Wynonie's would have been bigger than that if Billboard had
more than a top 30 in 1948, or if they counted R&B locations towards
their pop chart listings.

If I added a third version it would be the Roy Brown original which
was a hit in 1947.

[Michael Pendragon]

"Would have" is speculation on your part. I've done quite a lot of
research over the past 10 years and have yet to find one shred of
credible evidence that Wynonie Harris was known outside of the "race"
market.

> If I added a third version it would be the Roy Brown original which
> was a hit in 1947.

Roy Brown is even less well known than Mr. Harris.

[The Bloomfield Buddy]

On Aug 14, 11:39 pm, Michael Pendragon

<michaelmaleficapendra...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> "Would have" is speculation on your part.  I've done quite a lot of
> research over the past 10 years and have yet to find one shred of
> credible evidence that Wynonie Harris was known outside of the "race"
> market.

I have to say that your research is lacking some then, because Wynonie
is the lead singer of this record that was top ten on the pop chart in
1945.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RmkcAgRGPV8

Lucky Millinder Orchestra feat. Wynonie Harris.

He was even known by whites in the UK, as evidenced by an interview
with Eric Burdon, who talks of being influenced by a Wynonie record
(Bloodshot Eyes) when he was a young kid, hearing a neighbor blast it
all the time.

Clearly he was popular with Presley.

A friend of mine in high school had the 78, from his father's
collection. That;s in an all white town called Paramus, I'm sure you
know it.

[Dean F.]

On Aug 15, 12:22 am, The Bloomfield Buddy <savo...@verizon.net> wrote:

> > "Would have" is speculation on your part.  I've done quite a lot of
> > research over the past 10 years and have yet to find one shred of
> > credible evidence that Wynonie Harris was known outside of the "race"
> > market.
>
> I have to say that your research is lacking some then, because Wynonie
> is the lead singer of this record that was top ten on the pop chart in
> 1945.

Pendragon is undoubtedly one of those "researchers" who begins with a
foregone conclusion and seeks evidence to back it up. And if he comes
across evidence that fly in the face of his pet theory, he either
ignores it completely or dismisses it as unreliable or irrelevant.
Holocaust deniers, Kennedy assassination buffs, those who insist that
the 1969 moon landing was faked, and more recently 9/11 "Truthers" are
all notorious for that crap.

[The Bloomfield Bloviator]

On Aug 15, 1:49 am, poisoned rose <pro...@poisonedrose.com> wrote:

> "Dean F." <soulexpr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Pendragon is undoubtedly one of those "researchers" who begins with a
> > foregone conclusion and seeks evidence to back it up. And if he comes
> > across evidence that fly in the face of his pet theory, he either
> > ignores it completely or dismisses it as unreliable or irrelevant.
>

> You mean like Bruce?

Check out my lists on DDD and show me where I ignore evidence and push
my favorites.

There's only two Fats Domino things (my favorite artist) on the "300
Greatest Rock Songs" list, and there will not be any added when we
expand to 500 songs next year.

But there are lots of songs that I can't stand that I put on that
list.

[Dean F.]

On Aug 15, 1:49 am, poisoned rose <pro...@poisonedrose.com> wrote:

> "Dean F." <soulexpr...@gmail.com> wrote:

> > Pendragon is undoubtedly one of those "researchers" who begins with a
> > foregone conclusion and seeks evidence to back it up. And if he comes
> > across evidence that fly in the face of his pet theory, he either
> > ignores it completely or dismisses it as unreliable or irrelevant.
>

> You mean like Bruce?

Pot calls kettle black! Film at eleven.

[Michael Pendragon]

On Aug 15, 12:22 am, The Bloomfield Buddy <savo...@verizon.net> wrote:

> On Aug 14, 11:39 pm, Michael Pendragon
>
> <michaelmaleficapendra...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > "Would have" is speculation on your part.  I've done quite a lot of
> > research over the past 10 years and have yet to find one shred of
> > credible evidence that Wynonie Harris was known outside of the "race"
> > market.
>
> I have to say that your research is lacking some then, because Wynonie
> is the lead singer of this record that was top ten on the pop chart in
> 1945.
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RmkcAgRGPV8
>
> Lucky Millinder Orchestra feat. Wynonie Harris.

Here's the 3rd User Comment that appears under your link:

"NEVER heard of HIM or this SONG"
ShayW125 3 years ago

> He was even known by whites in the UK, as evidenced by an interview
> with Eric Burdon, who talks of being influenced by a Wynonie record
> (Bloodshot Eyes) when he was a young kid, hearing a neighbor blast it
> all the time.

All that proves is that Mr. Burdon's neighbor had odd tastes. My
neighbors have heard me blasting a lot records you'd deem obscure.

> Clearly he was popular with Presley.

Clearly? Could you show me some actual proof of this?

The fact that Elvis recorded the song, doesn't mean he liked, or even
heard of, the original. Remember how he was inspired to record Hound
Dog from having heard Freddie Bell & The Bellboys perform it -- and
*not* from BMT's r&b record.

> A friend of mine in high school had the 78, from his father's
> collection. That;s in an all white town called Paramus, I'm sure you
> know it.

Yes, I've been there once or twice.

My family's old 78s had a few obscurities amongst them as well. I'm
still trying to find a digital copy of Skip Nelson's "The Ferris
Wheel" and Texas Jim Robertson's "Headin' Down the Wrong Highway."

[Michael Pendragon]

From the first customer review for one of Mr. Harris' albums at
Amazon: "Sad to say that Wynonie died of cancer in 1969 in relative
obscurity and lack of wealth."
http://www.amazon.com/Good-Rockin-Tonight-Wynonie-Harris/dp/B0012IPYOG

From a site reviewing Nick Tosches' "Unsung Heroes of Rock 'n' Roll":
"Wynonie Harris – The man Elvis stole most of his stage swagger from.
Drank himself to death and died penniless and forgotten in the summer
of 1969. Didn’t make it."
http://figmentcity.wordpress.com/2012/08/07/unsung-heroes-of-rocknroll/

From a music site article/bio: "After the mid fifties he remained
largely unknown to the general public, and passed away in relative
obscurity in 1966."
http://home.earthlink.net/~jaymar41/luckym.html

From an article in The Halifax Commoner: "Harris saw little of the
[r'n'r] action. He continued to tour in relative obscurity until his
death from cancer in 1969."
http://thecommoner.kingsjournalism.com/?p=4155

You starting to sense a pattern here?

[The Bloomfield Buddy]

On Aug 15, 9:09 am, Michael Pendragon

<michaelmaleficapendra...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Aug 15, 12:22 am, The Bloomfield Buddy <savo...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Aug 14, 11:39 pm, Michael Pendragon
>
> > <michaelmaleficapendra...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > "Would have" is speculation on your part.  I've done quite a lot of
> > > research over the past 10 years and have yet to find one shred of
> > > credible evidence that Wynonie Harris was known outside of the "race"
> > > market.
>
> > I have to say that your research is lacking some then, because Wynonie
> > is the lead singer of this record that was top ten on the pop chart in
> > 1945.
>
> >http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RmkcAgRGPV8
>
> > Lucky Millinder Orchestra feat. Wynonie Harris.
>
> Here's the 3rd User Comment that appears under your link:
>
> "NEVER heard of HIM or this SONG"
> ShayW125 3 years ago

The song is from 1945. Unless you were born in 1935 or earlier, you
probably don't know the song. It's a top ten pop chart hit, and YOU
didn;t know it.

> > He was even known by whites in the UK, as evidenced by an interview
> > with Eric Burdon, who talks of being influenced by a Wynonie record
> > (Bloodshot Eyes) when he was a young kid, hearing a neighbor blast it
> > all the time.
>
> All that proves is that Mr. Burdon's neighbor had odd tastes.  My
> neighbors have heard me blasting a lot records you'd deem obscure.
>
> > Clearly he was popular with Presley.
>
> Clearly?  Could you show me some actual proof of this?

See the A side of Elvis's second single.

> The fact that Elvis recorded the song, doesn't mean he liked, or even
> heard of, the original.  Remember how he was inspired to record Hound
> Dog from having heard Freddie Bell & The Bellboys perform it -- and
> *not* from BMT's r&b record.

The Harris is not the original.

From the book "Catalyst - The Sun Records Story"

page 9
He (Elvis) also liked hillbilly, country boogie, and of course the
powerful early 50s R&B typified by Wynonie Harris, Arthur Crudup and
Big Mama Thornton.

Page 10
For his second release "Presley chose" (songwriter) Roy Brown's "Good
Rockin' Tonight," which had been a bigger hit for Wynonie Harris in
1948.


KEY WORDS - Presley chose.

It was his idea to do the song, which means he was familiar with it.

>
> > A friend of mine in high school had the 78, from his father's
> > collection. That;s in an all white town called Paramus, I'm sure you
> > know it.
>
> Yes, I've been there once or twice.
>
> My family's old 78s had a few obscurities amongst them as well.  I'm
> still trying to find a digital copy of Skip Nelson's "The Ferris

> Wheel" and Texas Jim Robertson's "Headin' Down the Wrong Highway."- Hide quoted text -

[The Bloomfield Buddy]

On Aug 15, 9:20 am, Michael Pendragon

Yes, these indicate a pattern:

Wynonie Harris – The man Elvis stole most of his stage swagger from.

After the mid fifties he remained largely unknown to the general
public,

Translation, he was a big influence on Elvis, and while he was popular
and known in the 40s and eatly 50s, he did not maintain that due to
the lifestyle he led, he no longer sounded very good.

For Elvis to have stolen most of his stage swagger from Wynonie, he
must have seen him in person, correct? I would venture to guess that
if he saw him in person, that he heard of him, no?

[The Bloomfield Bloviator]

On Aug 15, 9:09 am, Michael Pendragon

<michaelmaleficapendra...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Aug 15, 12:22 am, The Bloomfield Buddy <savo...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> > On Aug 14, 11:39 pm, Michael Pendragon
>
> > <michaelmaleficapendra...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > "Would have" is speculation on your part.  I've done quite a lot of
> > > research over the past 10 years and have yet to find one shred of
> > > credible evidence that Wynonie Harris was known outside of the "race"
> > > market.
>
> > I have to say that your research is lacking some then, because Wynonie
> > is the lead singer of this record that was top ten on the pop chart in
> > 1945.
>
> >http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RmkcAgRGPV8
>
> > Lucky Millinder Orchestra feat. Wynonie Harris.
>
> Here's the 3rd User Comment that appears under your link:
>
> "NEVER heard of HIM or this SONG"
> ShayW125 3 years ago

Nice of you to post that comment for us. I'm wondering why you only
posted one of the comments, though. You neglected to post some of the
others.

Here's the first comment:

Listen to his 'Good morning Judge', still hear it in dance halls 1-2x
a week.
Uptownsort - 2 years ago.

And the last comment.

Fabulous voice, I love the oldies too x
Catnapism - 2 years ago

One more:

Great song! Give me random thumbs upps if you think this song is rly
good!
Dennisjoon - 8 months ago

[Michael Pendragon]

Note the accusation against Mr. Presley. This sort of thing is
typical of fans trying to make a case for a nobody.

> After the mid fifties he remained largely unknown to the general
> public,
>
> Translation, he was a big influence on Elvis, and while he was popular
> and known in the 40s and eatly 50s, he did not maintain that due to
> the lifestyle he led, he no longer sounded very good.

It says that *he remained largely unknown.* You have to be unknown to
remain unknown.

> For Elvis to have stolen most of his stage swagger from Wynonie, he
> must have seen him in person, correct?  I would venture to guess that
> if he saw him in person, that he heard of him, no?

You're acting as if one whiny fan's accusation is the gospel truth.
Before you can surmise that Mr. Presley "must have seen him in
person," you first have to establish (beyond a reasonable doubt) that
he "stole" from him in the first place.

[Michael Pendragon]

On Aug 15, 10:34 am, The Bloomfield Bloviator <savo...@verizon.net>
wrote:

> On Aug 15, 9:09 am, Michael Pendragon
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> <michaelmaleficapendra...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Aug 15, 12:22 am, The Bloomfield Buddy <savo...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> > > On Aug 14, 11:39 pm, Michael Pendragon
>
> > > <michaelmaleficapendra...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > "Would have" is speculation on your part.  I've done quite a lot of
> > > > research over the past 10 years and have yet to find one shred of
> > > > credible evidence that Wynonie Harris was known outside of the "race"
> > > > market.
>
> > > I have to say that your research is lacking some then, because Wynonie
> > > is the lead singer of this record that was top ten on the pop chart in
> > > 1945.
>
> > >http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RmkcAgRGPV8
>
> > > Lucky Millinder Orchestra feat. Wynonie Harris.
>
> > Here's the 3rd User Comment that appears under your link:
>
> > "NEVER heard of HIM or this SONG"
> > ShayW125 3 years ago
>
> Nice of you to post that comment for us. I'm wondering why you only
> posted one of the comments, though. You neglected to post some of the
> others.

Wondering? Really?

Let's see if we can't figure it out:

> Here's the first comment:
>
> Listen to his 'Good morning Judge', still hear it in dance halls 1-2x
> a week.
> Uptownsort - 2 years ago.

Uptownsort claims to hear this song in "dance halls"? Dance halls???
Come on.

Not only does Uptownsort frequent "dance halls," but he/she does so at
least 1-2x a week (more unless he/she hears "Good Morning Judge"
played *every* time he/she goes out dancing).

I doubt they even play it at the dances Tom attends.

> And the last comment.
>
> Fabulous voice, I love the oldies too x
> Catnapism - 2 years ago

Catnapism loves the oldies. Whoop-de-dam-do. That says a lot about
Mr. Harris' past or lasting fame.

> One more:
>
> Great song! Give me random thumbs upps if you think this song is rly
> good!
> Dennisjoon - 8 months ago

Another resounding W-d-d-d. Dennisjoon thinks the song is really
good.

So let's tally up the omitted quotes:

1 person claims to hear an even more obscure record by Mr. Harris
played in "dance halls" twice a week, and 2 other people commented
that they liked hearing the song that TimmyJ posted.

Not exactly worth bothering about, n'est-ce pas?

[The Bloomfield Buddy]

On Aug 15, 11:36 am, Michael Pendragon

But this one was significant?

[xpen...@gmail.com]

On Tue, 14 Aug 2012 20:39:19 -0700 (PDT), Michael Pendragon
<michaelmalef...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Aug 14, 4:37�pm, The Bloomfield Buddy <Savo...@aol.com> wrote:
>> On Aug 14, 4:19�pm, Michael Pendragon
>>
>> <michaelmaleficapendra...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > On Aug 14, 3:54�pm, The Bloomfield Buddy <Savo...@aol.com> wrote:
>>
>> > > On Aug 8, 11:54�pm, "Dean F." <soulexpr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> > > > I'm surprised that song #71 cites Wynonie Harris only. Didn't you
>> > > > consider Elvis' remake worthy of inclusion as well?
>>
>> > > Dean, you'll be glad to know i thought about this and decided to add
>> > > Elvis as the second artist for this entry. I just sent the info to
>> > > Lew, should be listed that way by tomorrow, maybe sooner.
>>
>> > You might also want to list Pat Boone's version which hit the #49 spot
>> > on the Hot 100 charts -- which is a damn sight more than Wynonie
>> > Harris and Elvis Presley's versions combined.
>>
>> No thanks. Wynonie's would have been bigger than that if Billboard had
>> more than a top 30 in 1948, or if they counted R&B locations towards
>> their pop chart listings.
>
>"Would have" is speculation on your part. I've done quite a lot of
>research over the past 10 years and have yet to find one shred of
>credible evidence that Wynonie Harris was known outside of the "race"
>market.

Elvis Presley knew WH. People like Dewey Phillips, Hunter Hancock etc
that had highly popular radio shows knew WH too.

[xpen...@gmail.com]

On Wed, 15 Aug 2012 06:09:20 -0700 (PDT), Michael Pendragon
<michaelmalef...@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Aug 15, 12:22�am, The Bloomfield Buddy <savo...@verizon.net> wrote:
>> On Aug 14, 11:39�pm, Michael Pendragon
>>
>> <michaelmaleficapendra...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> > "Would have" is speculation on your part. �I've done quite a lot of
>> > research over the past 10 years and have yet to find one shred of
>> > credible evidence that Wynonie Harris was known outside of the "race"
>> > market.
>>
>> I have to say that your research is lacking some then, because Wynonie
>> is the lead singer of this record that was top ten on the pop chart in
>> 1945.
>>
>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RmkcAgRGPV8
>>
>> Lucky Millinder Orchestra feat. Wynonie Harris.
>
>Here's the 3rd User Comment that appears under your link:
>

>"NEVER? heard of HIM or this SONG"

>ShayW125 3 years ago
>
>> He was even known by whites in the UK, as evidenced by an interview
>> with Eric Burdon, who talks of being influenced by a Wynonie record
>> (Bloodshot Eyes) when he was a young kid, hearing a neighbor blast it
>> all the time.
>
>All that proves is that Mr. Burdon's neighbor had odd tastes. My
>neighbors have heard me blasting a lot records you'd deem obscure.
>
>> Clearly he was popular with Presley.
>
>Clearly? Could you show me some actual proof of this?

EP was a big fan of Dewey Phillips Red, Hot and Blue radio show and WH
is the brand of music that he (DP) played.

>
>The fact that Elvis recorded the song, doesn't mean he liked, or even
>heard of, the original.

Again EP was a big fan of Dewey Phillips Red, Hot and Blue radio show
and WH is the brand of music that he (DP) played.

[xpen...@gmail.com]

Been saying the above for years.

[Roger Ford]

On Wed, 15 Aug 2012 07:15:26 -0700 (PDT), The Bloomfield Buddy
<sav...@verizon.net> wrote:

>On Aug 15, 9:20=A0am, Michael Pendragon
><michaelmaleficapendra...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Aug 15, 1:20=A0am, "Dean F." <soulexpr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> > On Aug 15, 12:22=A0am, The Bloomfield Buddy <savo...@verizon.net> wrote=
>:
>>
>> > > > "Would have" is speculation on your part. =A0I've done quite a lot =

>of
>> > > > research over the past 10 years and have yet to find one shred of

>> > > > credible evidence that Wynonie Harris was known outside of the "rac=
>e"
>> > > > market.
>>
>> > > I have to say that your research is lacking some then, because Wynoni=
>e
>> > > is the lead singer of this record that was top ten on the pop chart i=

>n
>> > > 1945.
>>
>> > Pendragon is undoubtedly one of those "researchers" who begins with a
>> > foregone conclusion and seeks evidence to back it up. And if he comes
>> > across evidence that fly in the face of his pet theory, he either
>> > ignores it completely or dismisses it as unreliable or irrelevant.
>> > Holocaust deniers, Kennedy assassination buffs, those who insist that
>> > the 1969 moon landing was faked, and more recently 9/11 "Truthers" are
>> > all notorious for that crap.
>>
>> From the first customer review for one of Mr. Harris' albums at
>> Amazon: "Sad to say that Wynonie died of cancer in 1969 in relative

>> obscurity and lack of wealth."http://www.amazon.com/Good-Rockin-Tonight-W=

>ynonie-Harris/dp/B0012IPYOG
>>
>> From a site reviewing Nick Tosches' "Unsung Heroes of Rock 'n' Roll":

>> "Wynonie Harris =96 The man Elvis stole most of his stage swagger from.

>> Drank himself to death and died penniless and forgotten in the summer

>> of 1969. Didn=92t make it."http://figmentcity.wordpress.com/2012/08/07/un=

>sung-heroes-of-rocknroll/
>>
>> From a music site article/bio: "After the mid fifties he remained
>> largely unknown to the general public, and passed away in relative
>> obscurity in 1966."http://home.earthlink.net/~jaymar41/luckym.html
>>
>> From an article in The Halifax Commoner: "Harris saw little of the
>> [r'n'r] action. He continued to tour in relative obscurity until his

>> death from cancer in 1969."http://thecommoner.kingsjournalism.com/?p=3D41=

>55
>>
>> You starting to sense a pattern here?
>
>Yes, these indicate a pattern:
>

>Wynonie Harris =96 The man Elvis stole most of his stage swagger from.

>
>After the mid fifties he remained largely unknown to the general
>public,
>
>Translation, he was a big influence on Elvis, and while he was popular
>and known in the 40s and eatly 50s, he did not maintain that due to
>the lifestyle he led, he no longer sounded very good.
>
>For Elvis to have stolen most of his stage swagger from Wynonie, he
>must have seen him in person, correct? I would venture to guess that
>if he saw him in person, that he heard of him, no?
>

"Rock Mr. Blues - The Life And Music of Wynonie Harris" Tony Collins
P. 112

"According to Jimmy Evans Jr (the son of Wynonie's long time manager)
one white spectator who saw Wynonie's act in Memphis was a young truck
driver and budding singer by the name of Elvis Presley"Every time
Jimmy would bring the show into that area Elvis would come to see the
show and he was such a fan that Jimmy used to let him,get him in to
the evening show. 'Cause see,they had whites in the afternoon and the
blacks would be like the midnight show. Now they had segregation in
those days. You couldn't mingle. And Elvis was the one,he always let
him in. And he'd sneak in and Jimmy would let him in the back and he'd
step in the balcony and he'd be cwatching that. 'Cause he copied
Wynonie's every move. 'He used to be watching him' he says,'and he
copied everything Wynonie did.' Henry Glover supports that claim.
"Presley copied many of the vocal gymnastics of Wynonie Harris as well
as the physical gyrations" he has said. "when you saw Elvis you were
seeing a mild version of Wynonie." Unfortunately there is no surviving
footage of Wynonie's stage act for comparison,but there is every
likelihood that Elvis did watch Wynonie for he regularly went to see
blues musicians at work. Memphis bluesmen B.B King and Billy "The Kid"
Emerson remember Elvis hanging around the black clubs on Beale Street
at this time.The evidence of recordings also shows that Elvis listened
to Wynonie. His second single for Sun Records recorded in 1954 was a
version of "Good Rockin' Tonight""

ROGER FORD
-----------------------

"Spam Free Zone" - to combat unwanted automatic spamming I have added
an extra "b" in my e-mail address (mari...@bblueyonder.co.uk).
Please delete same before responding.Thank you!

[The Bloomfield Buddy]

Thank you. We'll see how the resident Wynonie denier spins this one.

[The Bloomfield Bloviator]

> Two sentences, two tired clich s. So few tools at your disposal beyond
> childish, self-absorbed rage.

Less is more.

Nobody bothers to read through any of your long winded posts. Are you
related to Tom Blumenthal, by chance?

[The Bloomfield Bloviator]

On Aug 15, 4:27 pm, poisoned rose <pro...@poisonedrose.com> wrote:

> The Bloomfield Bloviator <savo...@verizon.net> wrote:
>

> > > Two sentences, two tired clich s. So few tools at your disposal beyond
> > > childish, self-absorbed rage.
>
> > Less is more.
>

> You have an anti-intelligence rationalization for every situation.

Thank you for the compliment, egghead.

[Dean F.]

On Aug 15, 3:46 pm, poisoned rose <pro...@poisonedrose.com> wrote:

> > Pot calls kettle black! Film at eleven.
>

> Two sentences, two tired clich s. So few tools at your disposal beyond
> childish, self-absorbed rage.

And "You mean like Bruce?" is just one sentence. As I said, pot calls
kettle black!

By the way, Broomie, I've checked out some of the other newsgroups
where you've posted. Seems that folks around those places think you're
an even bigger joke than we do around here! Your musical ignorance is
surpassed only by your inability to make friends.

[The Bloomfield Bloviator]

Come on, Dean. Eric is the only smart one in these groups who has good
taste and knows what's going on. Every one of the dozens of people who
think he's an asshole just don't "get it" like he does.

[The Bloomfield Bloviator]

On Aug 15, 8:10 pm, poisoned rose <pro...@poisonedrose.com> wrote:

> You are such a sad, squalling child. I just don't understand how a
> person can behave this way without any second-guessing of himself.
>
> "Broomie"? Yeah, I think I was last called that somewhere around fourth
> grade. The conduct of you and Bruce has an eerie way of steadily evoking
> memories of elementary school. I don't know how you can't be self-aware
> enough to realize how silly you are. Maybe you should go sit in the
> time-out chair for awhile, young man.
>
> And if "You mean like Bruce?" is a cliche, I'm not aware of this.
> ---------------------------------------------------------

> The OTHER tantrum twin <savo...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> > Eric is the only smart one in these groups who has good
> > taste and knows what's going on.
>

> Never said that at all. On the other hand, what does make my take
> superior to yours is that


1) I'm capable of conveying why I like music
> in ways beyond just citing its rank on silly, personal lists

Oh, so that's it. Anybody who can explain why they like something has
superior taste than anybody who can't. Yeah, that's something you want
to use in a debate. It's not "what" they like, it's the ability to
explain "why" they like what they do.....YOU FUCKING JACKASS.


2) I'm far more open-minded than you are

I don't agree with this. You barely like anything from the 7 decades
from before the Beatles hit the USA, but even if this was true, you
would be a "Jack Of All Trades, Master of None." Liking more is in no
way an indication of superior taste YOU FUCKING JACKSS.


3) I have musical training/ability

Having musical ability in no way gives someone better ability to
discern what is good and what isn;t, witnes how different the tsate of
two people who both have great musical ability can be. Prince does not
like what Marvin hamlsich liked, YOU FUCKING JACKASS.


4) I'm not in a continuous state of insecure, childish rage and
bitterness
> about everyone who doesn't share my tastes.

Sure you are. That's why you have to disparige artists like Kevin Mark
and the Dynamic Hepnotics, and Donny Osmond among others that you have
put down here recently. There's no reason for you to be putting any
artists down, especially when you claim to be a musician. YOU FUCKING
JACKASS.


> As for others on Usenet who don't like me,

You're about to explain away a shitload of people with a couple of
sentences.


> Usenet has become a wholly
> insane place. It's a very, very skewed population. Insecure, bitter
> people looking for ego reassurance. The rest of the world just isn't so
> much like this.

Of course the fact that so many people think you're an asshole can't
posssibly have anything to do with you, right? It's ALL those people
that are fucked up.


> I know all sorts of people who can exchange differing
> tastes in pleasant, conversational ways.

As do I, but you're not one of them. You're a strong example of the
bad things about Usenet, not for the good things about people away
from USENET.

[Michael Pendragon]

Yes.

First off, it's on topic -- as it clearly states that its author
"NEVER heard of HIM or this SONG."

Whereas 2 of the 3 omitted quotes do not make it clear that their
authors had ever heard of him or the song -- only that they enjoyed
listening to TimmyJ's post. The remaining quote doesn't specify
whether the author was familiar with the song in the 40s -- only that
they play it at some dance hall/s he/she currently frequents.

Secondly, the author who "NEVER heard of HIM or this SONG" uses all
caps to stress the point that he/she believes that most people share
his/her unfamiliarity with HIM/IT.

[Michael Pendragon]

On Aug 15, 1:45 pm, xpene...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Tue, 14 Aug 2012 20:39:19 -0700 (PDT), Michael Pendragon
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

> <michaelmaleficapendra...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >On Aug 14, 4:37 pm, The Bloomfield Buddy <Savo...@aol.com> wrote:
> >> On Aug 14, 4:19 pm, Michael Pendragon
>
> >> <michaelmaleficapendra...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> > On Aug 14, 3:54 pm, The Bloomfield Buddy <Savo...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> >> > > On Aug 8, 11:54 pm, "Dean F." <soulexpr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >> > > > I'm surprised that song #71 cites Wynonie Harris only. Didn't you
> >> > > > consider Elvis' remake worthy of inclusion as well?
>
> >> > > Dean, you'll be glad to know i thought about this and decided to add
> >> > > Elvis as the second artist for this entry. I just sent the info to
> >> > > Lew, should be listed that way by tomorrow, maybe sooner.
>
> >> > You might also want to list Pat Boone's version which hit the #49 spot
> >> > on the Hot 100 charts -- which is a damn sight more than Wynonie
> >> > Harris and Elvis Presley's versions combined.
>
> >> No thanks. Wynonie's would have been bigger than that if Billboard had
> >> more than a top 30 in 1948, or if they counted R&B locations towards
> >> their pop chart listings.
>
> >"Would have" is speculation on your part.  I've done quite a lot of
> >research over the past 10 years and have yet to find one shred of
> >credible evidence that Wynonie Harris was known outside of the "race"
> >market.
>
> Elvis Presley knew WH. People like Dewey Phillips, Hunter Hancock etc
> that had highly popular radio shows knew WH too.

Did Mr. Presley tell you this personally?

Did you read it in one of his many biographies? If so, which one?

[Michael Pendragon]

1) How do you know that Mr. Presley was a fan of this show?
2) Even *if* he was, you cannot automatically assume that he liked
Wynonie Harris' music.