Patsy Cline
SavoyBG
came out, her album "The Patsy Cline Story" in 1962 peaked at # 74 on the pop
album chart, and was only on the chart for 12 weeks.
She then did not chart an album until 22 years later, when the soundtrack from
the movie became here biggest selling album ever, peaking at # 29 on the pop
album chart, and staying around for 18 weeks.
Of course she was dead, and was not releasing albums, but she was pretty much
forgotten my most people until that movie came out.
She did not go into the country music hall of fame until 10 years after her
death (1973).
Merle Haggard had 38 (THAT's THIRTY EIGHT) # 1 singles on the country chart.
He also had 20 albums on the pop chart.
Even if Patsy might rank slightly ahead of Haggard for the 60s (which I doubt),
I don't see how she could possibly rank ahead of him, in any way, on an all
time list of significant country artists.
If it wasn't for the movie, there wouldn't even be anything to discuss.
MY LISTS - http://hometown.aol.com/savoybg/myhomepage/index.html
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donutbandit
news:20040128212225...@mb-m28.aol.com:
> Even if Patsy might rank slightly ahead of Haggard for the 60s (which
> I doubt), I don't see how she could possibly rank ahead of him, in any
> way, on an all time list of significant country artists.
>
> If it wasn't for the movie, there wouldn't even be anything to
> discuss.
>
And I disagree wholeheartedly. Anyone who really knows music should realize
that charts and sales aren't the only criteria much when considering the
worth of an artist. Are we to assume that the Osmonds were "significant"
because of the number of hits and record sales?
Patsy Cline was the Janis Joplin of country music - she influenced many
artists and singers, and still is to this day. Just ask Leann Rhimes.
How many records did Joplin and Jimi Hendrix sell? How many Top 40 hits?
Yet, nobody in their right mind would question their value because of
their not being "hitmakers."
SavoyBG
>Patsy Cline was the Janis Joplin of country music
That about says it all.
Since we all know that Janis Joplin was nothing but a cheap immitator of black
soul and blues singers, this statement proves to me that she must be vastly
overrated, just as Joplin is.
>Anyone who really knows music should realize
>that charts and sales aren't the only criteria much when considering the
>worth of an artist.
No shit.
>How many records did Joplin and Jimi Hendrix sell? How many Top 40 hits?
>Yet, nobody in their right mind would question their value because of
>their not being "hitmakers."
>
Not many people around here think that Joplin is all that important.
SavoyBG
Just ask LeAnn Rimes.
Why would I ask somebody who was born in 1982 about who the most important
country artists from the 1960s are?
If it wasn't for the movie (like I've said all along), Rimes probably would
barely even know that Cline existed.
If on Jan 1, 1970 we made a list of the top ten most significant country
artists of the 1960s, I don't see Cline as being in the top five.
If on Jan 1, 1980 we made a list of the most significant country artists of all
time, I don't see any way that Cline could have been ranked ahead of Haggard.
Are we supposeed to revise the rankings every time some artist (Valens, Cline)
gains new popularity decades later because of a popular movie?
Daniel Heilman
"SavoyBG" <sav...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040128212225...@mb-m28.aol.com...
> Patsy Cline ... was pretty much
> forgotten my most people until that movie came out.
>
Maybe in New Jersey. The rest of the world had no trouble remembering her.
She was considered a goddess by virtually every female country singer who
followed her, and her hits remained staples of country radio up until (and
after) the movie.
SavoyBG
>Maybe in New Jersey. The rest of the world had no trouble remembering her.
Then why wasn't her greatest hits album ever on the charts after 1963?
Tammy Wynette's greatest hits was on the pop charts for 61 weeks in 1969 and
1970. Her nickname was "The First Lady Of Country Music."
You say "the rest of the world." Cline had two singles that barely made the
English charts in 1962, and neither of them was "Crazy."
>She was considered a goddess by virtually every female country singer who
>followed her,
There are a lot more male country singers than female country singers.
We don't use a curve to rank an artist's signifigance based on his or her extra
signifigance within a minority of the artists who make that kind of music.
>and her hits remained staples of country radio up until (and
>after) the movie.
What about Haggard's hits?
Patsy Cline had about 10 hit singles.
Haggard had 38 # 1 singles. Are you telling me that Patsy Cline's records were
played more over the years on country radio than Haggard's records were?
I admit I don't know that much about country music, but I just don't see any
signs of her being so important until after the movie revived her catalog.
SavoyBG
1961 Jimmie Rodgers
1961 Fred Rose
1961 Hank Williams
1962 Roy Acuff
1963 (none elected)
1964 Tex Ritter
1965 Ernest Tubb
1966 Eddy Arnold
1966 Jim Denny
1966 George D. Hay
1966 Uncle Dave Macon
1967 Red Foley
1967 J. L. Frank
1967 Jim Reeves
1967 Stephen H. Sholes
1968 Bob Wills
1969 Gene Autry
1970 Bill Monroe
1970 Original Carter Family
1971 Arthur E. Satherley
1972 Jimmie Davis
1973 Chet Atkins
1973 Patsy Cline
1974 Owen Bradley
1974 Pee Wee King
1975 Minnie Pearl
1976 Paul Cohen
1976 Kitty Wells
1977 Merle Travis
1978 Grandpa Jones
1979 Hubert Long
1979 Hank Snow
1980 Johnny Cash
1980 Connie B. Gay
1980 Original Sons of the Pioneers
1981 Vernon Dalhart
1981 Grant Turner
1982 Lefty Frizzell
1982 Roy Horton
1982 Marty Robbins
1983 Little Jimmy Dickens
1984 Ralph Peer
1984 Floyd Tillman
1985 Lester Flatt & Earl Scruggs
1986 Duke of Paducah
1986 Wesley Rose
1987 Rod Brasfield
1988 Loretta Lynn
1988 Roy Rogers
1989 Jack Stapp
1989 Cliffie Stone
1989 Hank Thompson
1990 Tennessee Ernie Ford
1991 Boudleaux & Felice Bryant
1992 George Jones
1992 Frances Preston
1993 Willie Nelson
1994 Merle Haggard
1995 Roger Miller
1995 Jo Walker-Meador
1996 Patsy Montana
1996 Buck Owens
1996 Ray Price
1997 Harlan Howard
1997 Brenda Lee
1997 Cindy Walker
1998 George Morgan
1998 Elvis Presley
1998 E.W. “Bud” Wendell
1998 Tammy Wynette
1999 Johnny Bond
1999 Dolly Parton
1999 Conway Twitty
2000 Charley Pride
2000 Faron Young
2001 Bill Anderson
2001 Delmore Brothers
2001 Everly Brothers
2001 Don Gibson
2001 Homer & Jethro
2001 Waylon Jennings
2001 Jordanaires
2001 Don Law
2001 Louvin Brothers
2001 Ken Nelson
2001 Webb Pierce
2001 Sam Phillips
2002 Bill Carlisle
2002 Porter Wagoner
2003 Floyd Cramer
2003 Carl Smith
Ritter, Tubb, Eddy Arnold and Reeves were all inducted before Cline, yet ranked
lower than Cline by Bob Roman.
I would think if she was a "goddess" that she would have went in right away
after she died. They didn't elect anybody at all in 1963, but I don't know if
the voting took place before she died in March of that year.
Eddy Arnold seems to get written off by historians, even though at one time he
was the most successful artist of all time on the country charts.
He seems to be thought of the way that Glenn Miller is thought of in swing and
jazz, as a HUGE hitmaker who was not as significant as his record sales would
seem to indicate.
Steve2000indeja
Merle has lived a lot longer, has had the longer career and more hits, at least
country hits. But Patsy's got a handful of crossover recordings that remain as
big and as influential as any country (pop) tunes by any country/pop artist,
any era- 40 years after she died.
Merle wrote most or all of his biggest tunes, Patsy made the songs she sang her
own.
Merle and his band helped create a particular popular country sound- the
Bakersfield honky tonk sound-with his voice (and lyrics) as the centerpiece.
Patsy was a major-perhaps The major voice- as the first version of the
Nashville Sound was crafted by Owen Bradley and those early Nashville session
guys on her records. Her biggest tunes certainly still hold up. It doesn't
matter that others wrote the words. Patsy defined those songs with a style
that's influenced countless female vocalists ever since.
They're both great.
I will say that on my mobile Dj jobs, I can play "Crazy' by Patsy for nearly
any mainstream audience to great success. Merle's music is more hardcore and I
can't do this with his songs. Maybe "Silver Wings' - but it would have nowhere
near the impact "Crazy" still has. "Crazy' is about as foolproof as "Can't Help
Falling In Love" by Elvis.
Both great artists occupying different, special places in the big picture of
country music. And for Patsy - the pop music, too.
Steve
SavoyBG
>But Patsy's got a handful of crossover recordings that remain as
>big and as influential as any country (pop) tunes by any country/pop artist,
>any era- 40 years after she died.
So does Kenny Rogers.
>I will say that on my mobile Dj jobs, I can play "Crazy' by Patsy for nearly
>any mainstream audience to great success.
Sure, ever since the movie "Crazy" has become one of the biggest records ever.
Before the movie it was hardly even known by most mainstream audiences.
In fact, it was really not until after the movie started playing on cable TV
that "Crazy" really took off.
>"Crazy' is about as foolproof as "Can't Help
>Falling In Love" by Elvis.
There are dozens of foolproof slow records like that, doesn't mean that they
are influential at all.
You could play "My Way" or "Unforgettable" or "Unchained Melody" or "Chances
Are" or "I Only Have Eyes For You" and get the same reaction.
In fact, before the movie "Ghost," "Unchained Melody" was just one of several
hundred slow "oldies." Once it was in that movie it becamse one of the biggest
slow dance oldies of all time.
Dyuob Poltice
>Not many people around here think that Joplin is all that important.
>
I do.
============================
http://www.onlinerock.com/musicians/dyuob/
===========================================
"In this world, Elwood, you must be oh so smart,
or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart.
I recommend pleasant."
CitizenDan
> Then why wasn't her greatest hits album ever on the charts after 1963?
>
> Tammy Wynette's greatest hits was on the pop charts for 61 weeks in 1969 and
> 1970. Her nickname was "The First Lady Of Country Music."
>
> Patsy Cline had about 10 hit singles.
>
> Haggard had 38 # 1 singles. Are you telling me that Patsy Cline's records were
> played more over the years on country radio than Haggard's records were?
I never said any such thing, and I'm not comparing her to anyone else.
It would be stupid to compare her to Haggard (you did, I didn't),
because Haggard was alive and well and churning out records during all
those years that Cline was busy being dead. But insisting that she
simply disappeared from the public consciousness between 1963 and 1985
is just ignorant. She flew under your radar, that's all.
>
> I admit I don't know that much about country music, but I just don't see any
> signs of her being so important until after the movie revived her catalog.
>
You apparently didn't have a country radio station playing at the
dinner table every night as you were growing up. I did, and Cline
never disappeared from those airwaves. Your point about her relative
lack of hits works in her favor: The fact that she had only a handful
(and very few posthumous releases until the movie) makes her staying
power on country radio all the more impressive.
She was revered in Nashville all along, not just as a great singer,
but as a savvy, hardnosed trailblazer for female performers -- who,
while always a minority, were and are a more significant minority in
country than they are in most other areas of music.
I don't think any movie studio would have sunk tens of millions of
dollars into a biographical picture about a singer nobody remembered
or cared about. She was a legend all along, you just weren't aware of
it.
SavoyBG
>I don't think any movie studio would have sunk tens of millions of
>dollars into a biographical picture about a singer nobody remembered
>or cared about.
They've done that before and got lucky, like with Ritchie Valens.
When films like that become big, it's not because the singer was well
remembered, it's because the movie was good.
Movies about much bigger stars (Jerry Lee Lewis, Little Richard, Chuck Berry)
were not very good and did nothing to revive those guys' careers.
>She was a legend all along, you just weren't aware of
>it.
I'm not disputing that, I'm saying that ranking her among the top ten country
artists of all time is excessive.
>You apparently didn't have a country radio station playing at the
>dinner table every night as you were growing up. I did,
And how much Haggard did you hear?
William Cox
artist dies, they are not eligible for nomination for three years.
Jim Reeves died in 1964, and was inducted in 1967. Tammy Wynette had
been nominated and elected before her death in 1998, although the
announcement wasn't made until afterward.
However, look at the list you posted and your question about Patsy's
importance in Country Music history is answered. She was the FIRST
female soloist elected to the Hall of Fame. Three years before Kitty
Wells, who is considered the Queen of Country Music. That says
volumes.
Patsy Cline's Greatest Hits was released March 13, 1967. I have no
idea where it ranked on the Billboard Top 200 Albums Chart, or on the
Country Albums chart, when it was first released. However, it has
been #1 on the Top Country Catalog Albums Chart most weeks since the
chart was created in 1988. It had high rankings on the overall
Country albums chart before that. When the 24-bit remastered edition
was released last September, it sold enough in the first week to reach
#12 on Top Pop Catalog. To date, it has been certified 9X Platinum
and has probably sold enough to receive its Diamond certification.
The whole record selling machine is vastly different today than it was
in Patsy's lifetime. Back in the '60's, a country record was
considered a monster if it sold 50,000 copies. Some of the top
selling country albums of the day sold less than 100,000. So, it's a
testament to Patsy's impact on the genre that her album sales averaged
75,000 copies per year through the '60's and '70's. Enough for Decca
and MCA to keep several of them in print for 40 or more years
("Showcase" was released in 1961, "The Patsy Cline Story" was released
in 1963).
Truthfully, Patsy always achieved greater success on the Country
Charts than on the Pop Charts. Even in the '60's, when the line
between Country and Pop was less rigid than it is today, Patsy was
considered a Country artist and her records were viewed as such.
After her death, she maintained a strong Country fanbase. And, her
records remained in regular rotation on Country radio.
If you are looking strictly at her Mainstream Pop success, then you're
correct that "Sweet Dreams," and "Coal Miner's Daughter" before it,
had a lot to do with renewed interest in Patsy's catalog. Her fans
are thankful for that, because it made the rest of the world take
notice of what we knew all along.
Bill
sav...@aol.com (SavoyBG) wrote in message news:<20040129005402...@mb-m28.aol.com>...
SavoyBG
>She was the FIRST
>female soloist elected to the Hall of Fame.
No doubt her death created some sentimentality towards that.
>The Country Music Hall of Fame's induction rules state that if an
>artist dies, they are not eligible for nomination for three years.
>Jim Reeves died in 1964, and was inducted in 1967.
So Reeves only waited the minimum 3 years, but Cline had to wait 10 years.
Apparently Reeves is considered more important than Cline.
>Patsy Cline's Greatest Hits was released March 13, 1967. I have no
>idea where it ranked on the Billboard Top 200 Albums Chart,
It never made the pop chart.
>However, it has
>been #1 on the Top Country Catalog Albums Chart most weeks since the
>chart was created in 1988.
Not surprising. I freely admit that AFTER the movie she became a HUGE star.
>When the 24-bit remastered edition
>was released last September, it sold enough in the first week to reach
>#12 on Top Pop Catalog. To date, it has been certified 9X Platinum
>and has probably sold enough to receive its Diamond certification.
Just shows you how powerful a movie can be.
>So, it's a
>testament to Patsy's impact on the genre that her album sales averaged
>75,000 copies per year through the '60's and '70's.
Where are you getting that information from?
>If you are looking strictly at her Mainstream Pop success, then you're
>correct that "Sweet Dreams," and "Coal Miner's Daughter" before it,
>had a lot to do with renewed interest in Patsy's catalog. Her fans
>are thankful for that, because it made the rest of the world take
>notice of what we knew all along.
>
So where would you rank her, objectively, on a list of the all time most
significant country artists?
Would you rank her ahead of Tubb, Haggard, George Jones, Eddy Arnold, etc...?
CitizenDan
Date: 29 Jan 2004 14:43:02 GMT
Subject: Re: Patsy Cline
>>From: d...@computeruser.com (CitizenDan)
>>You apparently didn't have a country radio station playing at the
>dinner table every night as you were growing up. I did,
>And how much Haggard did you hear?
Tons, of course. Your point?
SavoyBG
>>And how much Haggard did you hear?
>
>Tons, of course. Your point?
My point was in the last post.
I asked you, if you were objectively ranking the top country artists of all
time, would Cline rank ahead of Haggard?
CitizenDan
Date: 29 Jan 2004 16:42:32 GMT
Subject: Re: Patsy Cline
>From: d...@computeruser.com (CitizenDan)
>>And how much Haggard did you hear?
>
>>Tons, of course. Your point?
>My point was in the last post.
>I asked you, if you were objectively ranking the top country artists
of all
>time, would Cline rank ahead of Haggard?
Of course not. You're talking about 40 years of recording history for
Haggard vs. six or seven for Cline. The question has nothing to do
with your previous claim that Cline was forgotten between her death
and the movie about her, which is all I was disputing.
SavoyBG
>>I asked you, if you were objectively ranking the top country artists
>of all
>>time, would Cline rank ahead of Haggard?
>
>Of course not.
That's what I thought.
>Haggard vs. six or seven for Cline. The question has nothing to do
>with your previous claim that Cline was forgotten between her death
>and the movie about her, which is all I was disputing.
Obviously she was not totally forgotten, but she is MUCH more popular since the
movie than she ever was before the movie.
Bob Roman
> Ritter, Tubb, Eddy Arnold and Reeves were all inducted before Cline, yet
> ranked lower than Cline by Bob Roman.
And Grandpa Jones was inducted ahead of Johnny Cash. Do you want to
claim I overrated Johnny at the expense of Grandpa?
Cline was inducted 20 years before Haggard. You can't have it both
ways. Little Jimmy Dickens was inducted before Haggard. Do you want
to make a case that the Tator was more important?
What's more, Cline was inducted 12 years before the movie that you
claim created her popularity.
The fact is, your posting of the Hall of Fame list makes my point for
me. Look at the induction years with a more discerning eye. Patsy
Cline started her career in 1957 and was inducted into the Country
Music Hall of Fame in 1973, a span of only 16 years.
If you compare that span to that of any other inductee you will see
that Patsy made it in in record time.
Maybe I underrated her.
Bob Roman
SavoyBG
>Patsy
>Cline started her career in 1957 and was inducted into the Country
>Music Hall of Fame in 1973, a span of only 16 years.
>f you compare that span to that of any other inductee you will see
>that Patsy made it in in record time.
No, Hank Williams made it quicker.
I also believe that Cline would have taken longer to make it if she hadn't
died.
>What's more, Cline was inducted 12 years before the movie that you
>claim created her popularity.
I'm not disputing that she belongs in the hall of fame. I'm disputing that she
belongs among the top ten all time acts of the genre.
By the way Bob, honestly, were you a big Patsy Cline fan BEFORE the movie?
SavoyBG
>>Patsy
>>Cline started her career in 1957 and was inducted into the Country
>>Music Hall of Fame in 1973, a span of only 16 years.
>
>>f you compare that span to that of any other inductee you will see
>>that Patsy made it in in record time.
>
>
How about Jim Reeves, started in 1953, inducted in 1967, only 14 years.
Why was Reeves inducted in just the minimum 3 year wait after his death, while
Patsy took 10 years after her death, yet you rank Patsy ahead of Reeves?
Apparently the hall of fame voters thought that Reeves was much more
significant than Patsy.
Marc Dashevsky
> sav...@aol.com (SavoyBG) wrote...
> > Ritter, Tubb, Eddy Arnold and Reeves were all inducted before Cline, yet
> > ranked lower than Cline by Bob Roman.
>
> And Grandpa Jones was inducted ahead of Johnny Cash. Do you want to
> claim I overrated Johnny at the expense of Grandpa?
>
> Cline was inducted 20 years before Haggard. You can't have it both
> ways. Little Jimmy Dickens was inducted before Haggard. Do you want
> to make a case that the Tator was more important?
Bruce, you trimmed this paragraph from both of your responses.
Do you intend to answer it's question?
> What's more, Cline was inducted 12 years before the movie that you
> claim created her popularity.
>
> The fact is, your posting of the Hall of Fame list makes my point for
> me. Look at the induction years with a more discerning eye. Patsy
> Cline started her career in 1957 and was inducted into the Country
> Music Hall of Fame in 1973, a span of only 16 years.
>
> If you compare that span to that of any other inductee you will see
> that Patsy made it in in record time.
>
> Maybe I underrated her.
--
Marc Dashevsky -- Put "usenet" in Subject if you want me to read e-mail.
William Cox
Music Foundation and issued by MCA Records. Since her record company
says that, it must be so.
Bill
sav...@aol.com (SavoyBG) wrote in message news:<20040129095741...@mb-m10.aol.com>...
> >From: Clinet...@gmx.net (William Cox)
SavoyBG
>Bruce, you trimmed this paragraph from both of your responses.
>Do you intend to answer it's question?
No, the answer is obvious Mark.
SavoyBG
>The companion booklet to the 4-CD Box Set Produced By The Country
>Music Foundation and issued by MCA Records. Since her record company
>says that, it must be so.
Of course, why would a record company ever make a mistake, or lie?
donutbandit
m28.aol.com:
> Then why wasn't her greatest hits album ever on the charts after 1963?
Maybe because nobody was promoting her?
A great deal of an artist's exposure is due to promotion. The record
company, the agent. After Patsy's death, there just wasn't any cause to
promote her.
I don't know what label she was on, but maybe it was a label that didn't
see much value in promoting a deceased female honky-tonk singer.
donutbandit
futile. All they can see is Xs and Os, numbers and charts.
Bruce's entire reason for being seems to be about charts and hit lists,
numbers and rankings. So, he is going to look at the numbers and make his
judgments, and nothing anybody says is going to change his mind.
Stop arguing with him. It's futile.
Mark Dintenfass
<sav...@aol.com> wrote:
> >From: d...@computeruser.com (CitizenDan)
>
> >I don't think any movie studio would have sunk tens of millions of
> >dollars into a biographical picture about a singer nobody remembered
> >or cared about.
>
> They've done that before and got lucky, like with Ritchie Valens.
There are plenty of people--maybe millions--who know about Ritchie
Valens. "La Bamba" is on dozens of LP and CD compilations of 50s hits,
so lots of them have the song in their collections, even if their
collections are relatively small. You consistently underestimate his
fame
>
> When films like that become big, it's not because the singer was well
> remembered, it's because the movie was good.
>
> Movies about much bigger stars (Jerry Lee Lewis, Little Richard, Chuck Berry)
> were not very good and did nothing to revive those guys' careers.
The Little Richard movie you referring to was a tv movie, right? So it
doesn't really count for your point. The Chuck Berry movie you
referring to must be "Hail! Hail! Rock'n'Roll!" and it's a documentary,
so it doesn't count either. That leaves the only pretty good Jerry Lee
Lewis movie to make your point. I have no idea if it was profitable or
not? Do you? Anyway, Jerry Lee could always be counted on to get plenty
of publicity whenever he almost died or shot one of his wives, so in
that sense, he never went away.
--
--md
Remove xx to respond
Mark Dintenfass
<sav...@aol.com> wrote:
> >From: Marc Dashevsky
>
> >Bruce, you trimmed this paragraph from both of your responses.
> >Do you intend to answer it's question?
>
> No, the answer is obvious Mark.
I'm the answer to Marc's question?
Phaeton
Well said.
"Stathead" :-) I like this term...
Cheers, Csaba
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
CSABA I. HARANGOZO |d|i|g|i|t|a|l| csabah(at)zipworld(dot)com(dot)au
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
EARTH::AUSTRALIA:[SYDNEY]HARANGOZO.CSABA;1, delete? [N]:
Murphy's Fourth Law :
If there is a possibility of several things going wrong, the one that
will cause the most damage will be the one to go wrong.
Bob Roman
> How about Jim Reeves, started in 1953, inducted in 1967, only 14 years.
Jim Reeves first recordings under his own name were from 1949. Before
that he was a vocalist in Moon Mullican's band.
Bob Roman
Bob Roman
> By the way Bob, honestly, were you a big Patsy Cline fan BEFORE the movie?
I've never seen the movie.
Bob Roman
DianeE
"donutbandit" <no...@none.com> wrote in message
news:bvbq16$bot$6...@news.snowcrest.net...
Many years ago I worked for a bank. My supervisor's favorite advice to us
regarding customer relations was "Confuse'em with the facts!"
DianeE
SavoyBG
>I don't know what label she was on, but maybe it was a label that didn't
>see much value in promoting a deceased female honky-tonk singer.
Obviously not true based on the reported sales of her stuff since the movie
came out.
SavoyBG
>The Little Richard movie you referring to was a tv movie, right? So it
>doesn't really count for your point.
Sure it does. The Cline movie only really took off after it hit cable TV.
>That leaves the only pretty good Jerry Lee
>Lewis movie to make your point.
I thought it was pretty good, but the critics and the general public didn't,
and it did not ignite any kind of revival of Jerr's career. On the other hand
the Valens movie was gigantic, and it put Valens' music back in demand.
>There are plenty of people--maybe millions--who know about Ritchie
>Valens. "La Bamba" is on dozens of LP and CD compilations of 50s hits
Just like there are millions of people who knew about "Unchained Melody" by the
Righteous Brothers before it was used in "Ghost," but it rocketed from just
another oldie to perhaps the # 1 slow dance oldie of all time after it was in
the movie.
SavoyBG
>Jim Reeves first recordings under his own name were from 1949. Before
>that he was a vocalist in Moon Mullican's band.
>
That still doesn't adress why he was inducted just 3 years after his death
while Cline had to wait 10 years after her death.
Regina Litman
> To illustrate my point about Patsy Cline not meaning very much until the movie
> came out, her album "The Patsy Cline Story" in 1962 peaked at # 74 on the pop
> album chart, and was only on the chart for 12 weeks.
>
> She then did not chart an album until 22 years later, when the soundtrack from
> the movie became here biggest selling album ever, peaking at # 29 on the pop
> album chart, and staying around for 18 weeks.
>
> Of course she was dead, and was not releasing albums, but she was pretty much
> forgotten my most people until that movie came out.
It's been interesting, enlightening, and educational reading all of the
messages in this thread. And perhaps a mystery has been solved for me.
You may recall (and probably wish you didn't recall) that a few days
ago, I posted a list of songs I've been hearing as oldies on the radio
in Philadelphia since I moved here in 1986 but had never heard all those
years I constantly listened to the radio in the Washington, DC, for 20+
years before that.
One more thing you can add to this list - anything by Patsy Cline. I
wondered why I was hearing such songs as "Crazy" on WOGL after I never
heard her on a Top 40 or Adult Contemporary station in the DC area.
Especially since Philadelphia is such an r&b-oriented city (well,
Washington was) and not so much a country crossover town (but Washington
was), perhaps due to its closer proximity to the south and its influx of
so many people from elsewhere). Especially since Patsy's hometown of
Winchester, VA, is practically in the exurbs of DC - almost like a
Philadelphia station totally ignoring a hitmaker who came from, say,
Lancaster, PA.
Now I realize that my arrival on the Philadelphia scene practically
coincided with the release of this movie. It wouldn't surprise me if I
were to discover that "Crazy" did not get played on WFIL or "Wibbage"
during its heydey back in 1961.
> Merle Haggard had 38 (THAT's THIRTY EIGHT) # 1 singles on the country chart.
>
> He also had 20 albums on the pop chart.
>
> Even if Patsy might rank slightly ahead of Haggard for the 60s (which I doubt),
> I don't see how she could possibly rank ahead of him, in any way, on an all
> time list of significant country artists.
I do know a few songs by Patsy Cline, none of which I knew by her before
the two movies (the one about her plus the earlier "Coal Miner's
Daughter"). I say "by her" because I did know "Sweet Dreams", but I knew
it by Tommy McLain. I see that Diane E. knows one more Merle Haggard
song than I do because even though I have heard OF "Okie from Muskogee",
I don't think I've ever heard it.
--
Please note my correct email address:
rslitman [at-sign] infionline [dot] net
William Cox
>
> Of course, why would a record company ever make a mistake, or lie?
Yeah, why would they lie?
The truth hurts, doesn't it? Just because this factoid didn't
register in your world, doesn't mean it's a lie or didn't happen. The
fact remains that Patsy Cline was always a presence in Country Music.
It just took a while for the mainstream world to catch up.
The "Patsy Renaissance," if you want to call it that, began in earnest
around 1975. A full 10 years before "Sweet Dreams" was released. A
host of female artists came along who grew-up listening to Patsy
Cline's music in the '60's and early '70's.
Without question, Patsy had a profound impact on Loretta Lynn. Tammy
Wynette cited her as an influence early on. Linda Ronstadt paid
tribute by covering "Crazy" and "I Fall To Pieces" in the early '70's.
Emmylou Harris covered "Sweet Dreams" in 1976.
Reba McEntire began her recording career in 1976, and included one of
Patsy's songs on each of her first three albums for Mercury Records.
Further, in her concerts, Reba always included a tribute to Patsy with
a tremendous acapella version of "Sweet Dreams." That is, up until
the plane crash that killed her band in 1991. Barbara Mandrell, who
at age 12 toured with Patsy on a package tour in 1962, inaugurated her
1981-82 NBC variety series with a medley of Patsy Cline songs.
Then there's k.d. lang, Trisha Yearwood and Faith Hill, who have
always stated that they grew up listening to their
parent's/grandparent's/neighbor's/friend's Patsy records and became
fans and admirers. All long before the movie "Sweet Dreams" was ever
released.
I came across this thread of posts while doing a Google search, and
only jumped in because I wanted to further understand your reasoning
for dismissing Patsy's impact on, and importance to, the world of
music. What I'm sensing is that she doesn't fit the criteria you have
established for yourself in determining someone's standing in music
history. You throw out facts, figures and dates to prove your point.
Really, none of that matters. Patsy's impact lies in how her music
resonates with listeners, and how up and coming performers who love
her music and style adapt it. Yes, Patsy's mainstream record sales
increased because of "Sweet Dreams." But, if she hadn't delivered the
goods her sales would have trailed back off instead of remaining
steady.
Bill
William Cox
>
> Why was Reeves inducted in just the minimum 3 year wait after his death, while
I'll answer this part of the question. . . It's because Patsy was a
woman. The Hall of Fame induction process was quite patriarchal.
Still is. To date, only 10 female artists/performers, 2 female
songwriters and 2 female industry executives have been elected to the
hall. That's 14 out of 104 members, through 90 separate inductions.
Mother Maybelle Carter and Sara Cara were inducted as part of the
Carter Family in 1970. Patsy was the first female soloist inducted
when she was elected in 1973. Minnie Pearl, the beloved Country
commedienne, was inducted in 1975. Kitty Wells, the Queen of Country
Music, whose career began almost a decade before Patsy's, but didn't
take off until the success of "It Wasn't God Who Made Honky Tonk
Angels" in 1952, was inducted in 1976.
Loretta Lynn was the next female inducted (1988), followed by
Songwriter Felice Bryant (with husand Boudleaux) in 1991, BMI
executive Frances Preston in 1992, CMA Executive Jo Walker-Meador in
1995, Patsy Montana in 1996, Brenda Lee and Songwriter Cindy Walker in
1997, Tammy Wynette in 1998 and Dolly Parton in 1999.
The criteria for induction to the Hall is that your career has lasted
a minimum of 25 years, or (if due to death, etc.) has had a
significant impact on the genre.
Let's see. . . Patsy Cline's recording/touring career lasted from
1955-1963, a total of 8 years. She was the first female headliner in
Country Music. She was the first female Country artist to do Vegas.
She was the first female artist to regularly chart both Country and
Pop.
<sarcasm>
Nah, she's not significant.
</sarcasm>
Bill
Mark Dintenfass
<Tired...@SorryFolks.com> wrote:
> WHAT IS THIS !#$%*%&! MOVIE YOU KEEP TALKING ABOUT?
>
> I remember a movie about Loretta Lynn, starring Sissy Spacek. I don't
> remember any movie about Patsy Cline.
The movie about Loretta Lynn was "Coal Miner's Daughter," starring
Spacek and Tommy Lee Jones, a very successful movie that is easy to
confuse with the movie about Patsy Cline, which is called "Sweet
Dreams," and which stars Jessica Lange and Ed Harris. It's a much less
well-known movie than the Lynn biopic, but for some reason Bruce seems
to think it's the main reason Patsy Cline is revered today just the way
he thinks the only reason people have heard of Ritchie Valens is the
movie "La Bamba." In both cases, Bruce seems to have started with an
gross overstatement of a somewhat reasonable case, and then, being
Bruce, just couldn't back down.
Dyuob Poltice
<Tired...@SorryFolks.com> wrote:
>
>"Regina Litman" <rsli...@infi.net> wrote in message
>news:4019B694...@infi.net...
>
>> .....even though I have heard OF "Okie from Muskogee",
>> I don't think I've ever heard it.
>------------
>In 1970, when I still considered myself a "hippie" or "freek" (misspelling
>intentional), that song sent me into paroxysms of rage. I think that's
>what it was intended to do. Recently, I downloaded it and was able to
>listen to it in perfect calm, wondering what the hell was so offensive about
>it. You can't imagine how scary this is! Anyhow, here are the lyrics:
>
>We don't smoke marijuana in Muskogee;
>We don't take our trips on LSD
>We don't burn our draft cards down on Main Street;
>'Cause we like livin' right, and bein' free.
>
>We don't make a party out of lovin';
>But we like holdin' hands and pitchin' woo;
>We don't let our hair grow long and shaggy,
>Like the hippies out in San Francisco do.
>
>And I'm proud to be an Okie from Muskogee,
>A place where even squares can have a ball.
>We still wave Old Glory down at the courthouse,
>And white lightnin's still the biggest thrill of all.
>
>Leather boots are still in style for manly footwear;
>Beads and Roman sandals won't be seen.
>Football's still the roughest thing on campus,
>And the kids here still respect the college dean.
>
>And I'm proud to be an Okie from Muskogee,
>A place where even squares can have a ball.
>We still wave Old Glory down at the courthouse,
>And white lightnin's still the biggest thrill of all.
>And white lightnin's still the biggest thrill of all.
>In Muskogee, Oklahoma, USA.
>
>DianeE
>
The last time we drove though Muskogee, we stopped at the chamber of
commerce and bought postcards and a frisbee, just because of that
song! (and yes, I was one of those long hair hippe type 30 years ago,
but, hey, the song is a hoot).
============================
http://www.onlinerock.com/musicians/dyuob/
===========================================
"In this world, Elwood, you must be oh so smart,
or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart.
I recommend pleasant."
SavoyBG
>Yeah, why would they lie?
For many reasons.
Mainly, to try and hype the item.
>The
>fact remains that Patsy Cline was always a presence in Country Music.
No shit, but the question is, how big of a presence?
Is she more significant than artists like Haggard and Tubb?
>Without question, Patsy had a profound impact on Loretta Lynn. Tammy
>Wynette cited her as an influence early on. Linda Ronstadt paid
>tribute by covering "Crazy" and "I Fall To Pieces" in the early '70's.
> Emmylou Harris covered "Sweet Dreams" in 1976.
I don't want to start this again, but those are not "covers" they are
"remakes."
So in your opinion, is Patsy Cline a more significant country artist than Merle
Haggard (and his 38 # 1 singles).
SavoyBG
>"Okie from Muskogee",
<lyrics snipped>
I agree with what he's trying to say here.
FUCK the hippies and the drugs.
SavoyBG
>just the way
>he thinks the only reason people have heard of Ritchie Valens is the
>movie "La Bamba." In both cases, Bruce seems to have started with an
>gross overstatement of a somewhat reasonable case, and then, being
>Bruce, just couldn't back down.
Mark, you forget that not everyone is OLD like you.
There are MILLIONS of people who never heard of Ritchie Valens before seeing
that movie.
There are also MILLIONS of people who never heard of Patsy Cline before her
movie. My ex-wife loved the Cline movie when she saw it. She was born in 1956,
and had never heard of Cline before the movie. After the movie she would
regularly sing "Crazy" around the house.
It reminds me of the story of the kid who liked "Wings" in the mid-70s, but
didn't realize that Paul McCartney was in another band before that.
SavoyBG
>I'll answer this part of the question. . . It's because Patsy was a
>woman. The Hall of Fame induction process was quite patriarchal.
No it wasn't, It inducted the PEOPLE who it should have inducted.
Obviously women are nowhere near the musical force that men are, in just about
every genre.
>To date, only 10 female artists/performers, 2 female
>songwriters and 2 female industry executives have been elected to the
>hall. That's 14 out of 104 members, through 90 separate inductions.
Probably about the right ratio.
How many great female jazz instrumentalists have there been?
How many great female guitarists have there been?
How many great female drummers have there been?
Let's face it, A HUGE MAJORITY of the greatest musicians in practically every
genre are men.
Especially back 30-40-50 (and more) years ago, when women were encouraged to be
wives and mothers a lot more than they have been in the last 20 years or so.
>The criteria for induction to the Hall is that your career has lasted
>a minimum of 25 years, or (if due to death, etc.) has had a
significant impact on the genre.
Explains why people like Haggard didn't get in before Cline. As long as he was
alive he had to wait until his career was 25 years along.
>Let's see. . . Patsy Cline's recording/touring career lasted from
>1955-1963, a total of 8 years.
If she started in 1955 then her career was two years longer than Roman had said
before she was inducted.
>She was the first female headliner in
>Country Music.
Kitty Wells wasn't a headliner?
>She was the first female Country artist to do Vegas.
Probably because she was the first female country artist to have major hits on
the pop chart. In fact, to me, things like "Crazy" and "I Fall To Pieces" sound
more like pop to me than country. I don't see much of a difference between her
recors and Brenda Lee's slow stuff from the same time period.
>She was the first female artist to regularly chart both Country and
>Pop.
I don't think that is significant in the way that being the first black artist
to do that would be. Radio stations were not refusing to play records by women.
There just were not that many female artists around who were all that good,
especially in country (the South), where the young girls were probably brought
up more conservatively than women in other parts of the country, and probably
not encouraged as much towards having careers. Being a musician, especially in
country music, meant hanging around every night in honky tonks, something that
I'm sure most southern fathers didn't want their daughters doing back then.
>Nah, she's not significant.
She is significant.
But she's not among the ten most significant country artists of all time.
And she's nowhere near the top 100 most significant musicians of the 20th
century, a list which would probably only include 3 country artists (Hank,
Cash, Rodgers).
She may not even be among the top 100 most significant musicians of the 1960s.
When I first came into this newsgroup I conducted a survey of the group's
favorite artists. Here are the results of that survey...
# 1 - THE BEATLES
# 2 - ROLLING STONES
# 3 - KINKS
# 4 - BOB DYLAN
# 5 - BEACH BOYS
# 6 - BYRDS
# 7 - THE WHO
# 8 - JIMI HENDRIX
# 9 - OTIS REDDING
# 10 - SMOKEY ROBINSON & THE MIRACLES
# 11 - JAMES BROWN
# 12 - CREAM
# 13 - HOLLIES
# 14 - YARDBIRDS
# 15 - THE TEMPTATIONS
# 16 - VELVET UNDERGROUND
# 17 - ANIMALS
# 18 - ARETHA FRANKLIN
# 19 - LOVE
# 20 - LOU CHRISTIE
# 20 - FOUR TOPS
# 21 - WILSON PICKETT
# 22 - CREEDENCE CLEARWATER REVIVAL
# 23 - ROY ORBISON
# 24 - BUFFALO SPRINGFIELD
# 25 - MARVIN GAYE
# 26 - PAUL REVERE AND THE RAIDERS
# 27 - SIMON AND GARUNKEL
# 28 - THEM / VAN MORRISON
# 29 - ZOMBIES
# 30 - LOVIN' SPOONFUL
# 31 - SMALL FACES
# 32 - DOORS
# 33 - DAVE CLARK FIVE
# 34 - JEFFERSON AIRPLANE
# 35 - SLY AND THE FAMILY STONE
# 36 - SAM AND DAVE
# 37 - CAPTAIN BEEFHEART
# 38 - THE TURTLES
# 39 - THE BAND
# 40 - STEVIE WONDER
# 41 - JOHNNY CASH
# 42 - LEFT BANKE
# 43 - MAMAS AND PAPAS
# 44 - SAM COOKE
# 45 - CURTIS MAYFIELD & IMPRESSIONS
# 46 - DRIFTERS
# 47 - MANFRED MANN
# 48 - DUSTY SPRINGFIELD
# 49 - B.B. KING
# 50 - THE MOVE
# 51 - HOWLIN' WOLF
# 52 - FRANK ZAPPA & MOTHERS OF INVENTION
# 53 - RONETTES
# 54 - DONOVAN
# 55 - SONICS
# 56 - FOUR SEASONS
# 57 - PRETTY THINGS
# 58 - SUPREMES
# 59 - FAIRPORT CONVENTION
# 60 - MC5
# 61 - MARTHA & VANDELLAS
# 62 - MOODY BLUES
# 63 - STEPPENWOLF
# 64 - BOOKER T. & THE MG's
# 65 - TRAFFIC
# 66 - ELVIS PRESLEY
# 67 - IKE & TINA TURNER
# 68 - BOBBY "BLUE" BLAND
# 69 - ASSOCIATION
# 70 - MERLE HAGGARD
# 71 - DEL SHANNON
# 72 - MITCH RYDER AND DETROIT WHEELS
# 73 - GRASS ROOTS
# 74 - RASCALS
# 75 - MONKEES
# 76 - MUDDY WATERS
# 77 - EASYBEATS
# 78 - PROCOL HARUM
# 79 - HERMAN'S HERMITS
# 80 - PINK FLOYD
# 81 - ETTA JAMES
# 82 - TROGGS
# 83 - BOBBY FULLER FOUR
# 84 - IRMA THOMAS
# 85 - TIM HARDIN
# 86 - BEE GEES
# 87 - SIR DOUGLAS QUINTET
# 88 - JUNIOR WALKER & THE ALL-STARS
# 89 - RAY CHARLES
# 90 - SEEDS
# 91 - SOLOMON BURKE
# 92 - VENTURES
# 93 - YOUNGBLOODS
# 94 - McCOYS
# 95 - TRASHMEN
# 96 - EVERLY BROTHERS
# 97 - BONZO DOG BAND
# 98 - 13TH FLOOR ELEVATORS
# 99 - WILLIAM BELL
# 100 - LITTLE MILTON
# 101 - TOMMY JAMES & SHONDELLS
# 102 - BLUE CHEER
# 103 - CHUCK BERRY
# 104 - LINK WRAY
# 105 - PETER, PAUL & MARY
# 106 - LESLEY GORE
# 107 - MOBY GRAPE
# 108 - TIM BUCKLEY
# 109 - PATSY CLINE
# 110 - DIONNE WARWICK
# 111 - BOX TOPS
# 112 - NEIL YOUNG
# 113 - SHIRELLES
# 114 - LEE DORSEY
She came in at # 109.
Haggard was # 70.
Cash was # 41.
Even in a pop, rock & soul newsgroup, without really any straight country fans,
Haggard, who didn't have big hit pop chart singles like Patsy, still finished
higher in the survey.
Intheway1
>
Even the Hall of Fame itself now admits it was biased against women in the
early years of the selection process.
>Obviously women are nowhere near the musical force that men are, in just
>about
>every genre.
>How many great female jazz instrumentalists have there been?
>
>How many great female guitarists have there been?
>
>How many great female drummers have there been?
Anyone else worry that we are about to hear there is something genetic behind
this?
>Kitty Wells wasn't a headliner?
>
Even when she had top selling singles, she was often second billed to a male
singer.
> I don't see much of a difference between her
>recors and Brenda Lee's slow stuff from the same time period.
Since Owen Bradley was producing them both, this makes sense.
> Radio stations were not refusing to play records by women.
Country stations were, Bruce, and continued to do so for a long time. The bias
was well known in the country music business, and frankly, it was one of the
things Cline helped to break down. In many cases, the only female solo artists
being heard before Cline were doing answer records (including Kitty Wells).
>She may not even be among the top 100 most significant musicians of the
>1960s.
>When I first came into this newsgroup I conducted a survey of the group's
>favorite artists. Here are the results of that survey...
---list edited---
>Even in a pop, rock & soul newsgroup, without really any straight country
>fans,
>Haggard, who didn't have big hit pop chart singles like Patsy, still finished
>higher in the survey.
So popularity equals significance? Are you really saying that?
Fred
SavoyBG
>Even the Hall of Fame itself now admits it was biased against women in the
>early years of the selection process.
So what, they told the women what they wanted to hear because of PC pressure.
They need a guy like Hootie Johnson to stand up to that garbage.
>> I don't see much of a difference between her
>>recors and Brenda Lee's slow stuff from the same time period.
>
>Since Owen Bradley was producing them both, this makes sense.
So why is Cline country and Lee not country?
I know they eventually put Brenda in the country hall of fame, but why didn't
something like "I'm Sorry" make the country charts?
>Country stations were, Bruce, and continued to do so for a long time.
Is this documented somewhere Fred?
And if so, what would be the reason behind it?
>So popularity equals significance? Are you really saying that?
There is definitely a parallel, although this survey was not about
significance, it was about the favorite artists of the voters.
To go back to a similar debate....
If you took every artist who ever recorded, and picked two of them at random,
in over 90% of the cases, the artists who was most popular would also be more
significant.
I don't buy the "what musicians think" or the "influence"argument as defining
significance.
If the music of a particular artist made millions of people happy, that artist
is significant, whether they influenced other musicians or not.
The hamburger is more significant than caviar.
Beer is more significant than cognac.
Significance means importance, and I don't buy that quality equals importance.
I don't even buy that significance implies something good, or positive.
Adolph Hitler was a lot more significant than almost any other person in the
20th century.
Eddie Fisher was a lot more significant than 99% of all recording artists who
never had a record on the charts.
Brett A. Pasternack
> >Even in a pop, rock & soul newsgroup, without really any straight country
> >fans,
> >Haggard, who didn't have big hit pop chart singles like Patsy, still finished
> >higher in the survey.
>
> So popularity equals significance? Are you really saying that?
Sure he is. That's why he always argues that Wynonie Harris is
unimportant and shouldn't be in the Rock And Roll Hall Of Fame.
Oh, wait...
Dyuob Poltice
You aren't a very happy person, are you?
William Cox
Brenda Lee as a Pop/Rock artist.
Bill
sav...@aol.com (SavoyBG) wrote in message news:<20040130023532...@mb-m07.aol.com>...
SavoyBG
>You aren't a very happy person, are you?
Quite the opposite.
Bob Roman
> >"Okie from Muskogee",
> I agree with what he's trying to say here.
> FUCK the hippies and the drugs.
Haggard on politics, 2001
O: How do you feel about being closely identified with the politics of
"Okie From Muskogee" and "The Fightin' Side Of Me" now?
MH: Oh, I must have been an idiot. It's documentation of the
uneducated that lived in America at the time, and I mirror that. I
always have. Staying in touch with the working class... but it's
pretty easy to lie to me. You could lie to me. They had me in a film
called Wag The Dog because of "Okie From Muskogee" and my close
scrutiny of the people that are being shitted. I've become
self-educated since I wrote that song. But it still has a very timely
description.
O: You were expressing how a lot of people felt.
MH: That's what I'm saying. That's the collective demeanor of America
at the time.
O: Do you feel that those songs and the controversy over them limited
your audience?
MH: I'm sure it did. And there, again, I made mistakes, because I
didn't have anybody saying, "Well, you shouldn't do this. You
shouldn't do that. You know, you might not should do that, because
you've got this good career going, and you've got this flow. Step out
here and make a political opinion, and you're gonna be classified an
idiot." I probably could have avoided a lot of this, had I had someone
managing me that... I had a manager, but he didn't really try to get
involved in my feelings on things. He always let me go.
O: Did you vote in the last election?
MH: Yeah, yeah, I did. And I don't know, I wasn't happy with the count
myself. I thought it was pretty damn obvious that we had a situation
there where it made no difference what the American public thought.
They intended to be in office, and they are in office. That's the
bottom line, and we've been manipulated. I feel really violated as a
citizen.
Daniel Heilman
"Brett A. Pasternack" <bret...@erols.com> wrote in message
news:401A1A...@erols.com...
> > So popularity equals significance? Are you really saying that?
>
> Sure he is. That's why he always argues that Wynonie Harris is
> unimportant and shouldn't be in the Rock And Roll Hall Of Fame.
>
> Oh, wait...
It's nice to see I'm not the only one who finds great amusement in watching
Bruce's arguments double back on themselves.
SavoyBG
>Because Decca Records marketed Patsy Cline as a Country artist and
>Brenda Lee as a Pop/Rock artist.
So you're admitting that there isn't much of a difference between the two, and
that Cline was not really even a pure country artist, at least not in the 60s.
SavoyBG
>Haggard on politics, 2001
>O: How do you feel about being closely identified with the politics of
>"Okie From Muskogee" and "The Fightin' Side Of Me" now?
>MH: Oh, I must have been an idiot. It's documentation of the
>uneducated that lived in America at the time, and I mirror that. I
>always have.
So he's decided to become politically correct nowadays, who cares?
I still agree with what he was saying back in 1969.
>But it still has a very timely
>description.
>
It certainly does.
>O: You were expressing how a lot of people felt.
>
>MH: That's what I'm saying. That's the collective demeanor of America
>at the time.
As it should have been. DRUGS have never been a good thing.
>O: Do you feel that those songs and the controversy over them limited
>your audience?
>
>MH: I'm sure it did. And there, again, I made mistakes,
So apparently he's admitting that he wished he had stayed away from the
controversy so he could have been more popular. I would think that would bring
him down in your eyes.
I don't see where his current opinion of the record changes things one iota.
I once saw the Smokey & the Miracles being interviewed about their careers, and
they were actully embarassed about "Got A Job" and "Bad Girl" because they were
such simple pieces of music. They considered them to be real corny records that
they would like to forget about, and not ever perform again.
SavoyBG
>It's nice to see I'm not the only one who finds great amusement in watching
>Bruce's arguments double back on themselves.
How so?
Wynonie Harris had 15 top ten R & B singles between 1946 and 1952, and was one
of the biggest artists of the era.
I think you misinterpreted Brett's comment.
I think he was being sarcastic in defending me with the Wynonie comment.
I think anyone who argues that popularity DOESN'T equate with signifigance is
crazy.
Intheway1
>and
>they were actully embarassed about "Got A Job" and "Bad Girl" because they
>were
>such simple pieces of music. They considered them to be real corny records
>that
>they would like to forget about, and not ever perform again.
>
But of course, these are artists talking about their own careers, so their
statements can't be trusted. Unless, of course, their statements support
whatever position Bruce has taken. Then they take on the legitimacy of the
Magna Carta.
Fred
SavoyBG
>But of course, these are artists talking about their own careers, so their
>statements can't be trusted. Unless, of course, their statements support
>whatever position Bruce has taken. Then they take on the legitimacy of the
>Magna Carta.
In this case they are not giving out any facts about release dates, session
men, alternate versions, etc... they are just expressing an opinion about how
they feel about a piece of music.
Obvioulsy if they were to tell me who played the sax break on "Got A Job," I
wouldn't be surprised at all if they turned out to be wrong.
I listed it to illustrate my point that it doesn't matter what the artist
thinks about their own music, and that they have been conditioned to believe
that simplicity is bad, and that complexity is good.
Intheway1
>one
>of the biggest artists of the era.
I want to make sure I have the reasoning right here. Someone with a six year
stretch of hits on the R&B charts is significant, but someone with an eight
year career of hits on the country chart, and a movie of her life, and a large
number of artists who claim her as a major influence is not.
Interesting.
Fred
Intheway1
>>early years of the selection process.
>
>So what, they told the women what they wanted to hear because of PC pressure.
>They need a guy like Hootie Johnson to stand up to that garbage.
There was no "PC pressure," and I would like to see some substantiation of that
claim from you, if you've got it.
One of the primary reasons for the lack of women in the first decade's
inductees had to do with the lack of women who qualified under the 25-year
career rule. Minnie Pearl and Kitty Wells (the second and third women in the
HoF) were both inducted shortly after they qualified. The shortage of
qualified women nominees was the result of the focus of the country music
industry (and country radio) on male artists through the 50s.
>So why is Cline country and Lee not country?
>
>I know they eventually put Brenda in the country hall of fame, but why didn't
>something like "I'm Sorry" make the country charts?
Because it wasn't marketed to country radio. This made a great deal of sense
at the time, given the existing bias against female artists on radio and Lee's
age, which was a natural selling gimmick to reach the bigger pop market. You
are too young to remember, but when "I'm Sorry" first broke, there was a great
deal of attention paid to her age and size, with a prevalent rumor being that
she was actually much older. Furthermore, while there are great similarities
between Cline and Lee productions, Cline's voice was far more "country" than
Lee's.
>
>>Country stations were, Bruce, and continued to do so for a long time.
>
>Is this documented somewhere Fred?
>
Biographies of Cline, Tammy Wynette and Loretta Lynn all refer to the practice,
as do interviews with Owen Bradley, Connie Gay, Arthur Satherley, Stephen
Sholes and others in the country music business and/or country radio during the
time.
>And if so, what would be the reason behind it?
>
To summarize it, it is one of those great Catch-22 arguments. The men who ran
country radio stations believed that female artists did not sell because there
were so few female artists on their charts, and so came to believe that their
audience didn't want records by female artists. The country record companies
wanted to sell records, so focused on the artists likely to get played by the
radio stations, and this meant they recorded men. Since they didn't record
many women, there were few women on the charts.
Keep in mind that at the time (late 50s) there were less than 200 radio
stations in the country playing country music full time, so it didn't take too
many station owners with this attitude to influence the record companies.
>>So popularity equals significance? Are you really saying that?
>
>There is definitely a parallel, although this survey was not about
>significance, it was about the favorite artists of the voters.
>
>To go back to a similar debate....
>
>If you took every artist who ever recorded, and picked two of them at random,
>in over 90% of the cases, the artists who was most popular would also be more
>significant.
>
So, going by your list:
60 (90%) of the artists listed above him are not only more popular, but also
more significant than Elvis (#66)
68 (90%) of the artists listed above him are not only more popular, but also
more significant than Muddy Waters (#76)
80 (90%) of the artists listed above him are not only more popular, but also
more significant than Ray Charles (#89).
92 (90%) of the artists listed above him are not only more popular, but also
more significant than Chuck Berry (#103).
Interesting.
Fred
William Cox
Lee. Sure, there is a lot of similarity between Patsy's ballads and
Brenda's ballads. That's because both artists were produced by Owen
Bradley, they recorded in the same studio and were backed by the same
Nashville session players.
The difference between Patsy Cline and Brenda Lee lies in their
styles. Patsy's was more mature and appealed more to the Country
audience. The fact that Pop audiences liked Patsy's records and
bought them, although to a lesser extent than Brenda's, was gravy.
Brenda, on the other hand, was a teenager and appealed to the teen
audience. Most of Brenda's records at the time were straight ahead
Pop/Rock. They were not, and should not even to this day, be
considered Country. Brenda Lee is categorized as Country today,
because that's what she focused her recording career on in the '70's
and '80's. Quite successfully, I might add.
Brenda was inducted into the Rock Hall as a performer. When Patsy is
inducted, it will be as an influence.
Bill
sav...@aol.com (SavoyBG) wrote in message news:<20040130101537...@mb-m02.aol.com>...
William Cox
>
> I don't want to start this again, but those are not "covers" they are
> "remakes."
No, a "remake" is when an artist makes a new recording of a song they
cut earlier in their career. A "cover" is when an artist records a
song that was a hit for another artist.
And, yes, I do consider Patsy Cline more significant in the history of
Country Music than Merle Haggard. Merle was one in a long string of
male artists who adapted the styles of several of his predecessors to
create his own unique sound. Patsy Cline accomplished many things in
a short amount of time (headliner, a stint in Vegas, consistent
success on both the Country and Pop Charts) that have enabled the
female Country artists of today to have the types of careers they
have.
If you want to get into rankings, fine. There have been several
rankings done within the Country Music industry that place Patsy in
the Top 5, and certainly the Top 10, of all performers. One,
published in a special edition of Life Magazine about 10 years ago,
ranked Patsy as #4, behind Hank Williams, The Carter Family and Jimmie
Rodgers. On VH1's "100 Greatest Women In Rock," she ranked #11 (the
highest ranking Country artist on the list). On CMT's "40 Greatest
Women of Country," she ranked #1. On CMT's "100 Greatest Songs of
Country Music," she placed 4 songs overall, two of them in the Top 10
(the only artist to do that). And, as previously stated, she was the
first female soloist elected to the Country Music Hall of Fame.
Bill
William Cox
because it did make back it's budget (a modest $13 Million).
Most Patsy Cline fans, and the people in Nashville who knew Patsy,
dislike "Sweet Dreams" because of it's characterization of Patsy.
They agree that Jessica Lange did a great job of lip-synching Patsy's
recordings, but that's all they do like about the film.
The consensus is that Beverly D'Angelo's portrayal of Patsy in "Coal
Miner's Daughter" was more accurate in depicting Patsy's nature.
Bill
sav...@aol.com (SavoyBG) wrote in message news:<20040129094302...@mb-m10.aol.com>...
>
> When films like that become big, it's not because the singer was well
> remembered, it's because the movie was good.
SavoyBG
>stretch of hits on the R&B charts is significant,
Is not just the stretch, but the total number of hits and how high they
charted. Wynonie had about twice as many top ten hits on the R & B chart as
Cline had on the country chart.
> but someone with an eight
>year career of hits on the country chart,
Where do you get that from?
Patsy Clline had one country chart hit in 1957.
She then went without anything on the chart for over THREE YEARS.
She charted nothing in 1958.
She charted nothing in 1959.
She charted nothing in 1960.
She went almost FOUR YEARS without a record on the chart, from the early summer
of 1957 when "Walkin' At Midnight" droopped off the chart until April of 1961
when "I Fall Tp Pices" entered the chart.
You can't call that an "Eight year career of hits on the country chart."
She had one record on the chart in 1957
She had two records on the chart in 1964, neither of them in the top 20.
She had a fluke # 73 chart record in 1969.
Essentially she had a 3 year career of chart hits (1961 to 1963).
>and a movie of her life
So I guess by that logic Ritchie Valens is more important than Fats Domino.
I've NEVER once said that Cline wasn't significant.
All I've said is that she does not belong among the top ten country artists of
all time. I don't buy that she's as significant as people like Ernest Tubb and
Merle Haggard.
SavoyBG
>>If you took every artist who ever recorded, and picked two of them at
>random,
>>in over 90% of the cases, the artists who was most popular would also be
>more
>>significant.
>So, going by your list:
>60 (90%) of the artists listed above him are not only more popular, but also
>more significant than Elvis (#66)
>
What list are you talking about?
You are looking at one of lists of "recordings" not of artists.
Again, read my statement carefully.
in over 90% of the cases, the artists who was most popular would also be
more
significant.
This has NOTHING to do with my personal opinion of the artist's music.
I'm saying if you took EVERY artist who ever made a record, and put their name
on a slip of paper, and dropped those millions of slips into a big container,
and then pulled out two of those artists at random, that over 90% of the time
the more popular of the two artists (record sales, chart performance) would be
the more significant of the two artists.
This does not translate to mean that any popular artist would be more
significant than 90% of the artists who were less popular than him.
SavoyBG
>Brenda was inducted into the Rock Hall as a performer. When Patsy is
>inducted, it will be as an influence.
Hopefully that won't ever happen. She has about as much influence on rock and
roll as I do.
SavoyBG
> A "cover" is when an artist records a
>song that was a hit for another artist.
No, a "cover" is when an artsit releases a version of a current record, trying
to steal away some of the ales from the opriginal artist, such as "Tutti
Frutti" by Pat Boone.
It's not a cover anymore once the original record is not current anymore.
>Patsy Cline accomplished many things in
>a short amount of time (headliner, a stint in Vegas, consistent
>success on both the Country and Pop Charts) that have enabled the
>female Country artists of today to have the types of careers they
>have.
So we gtrade her on a curve because she's a woman?
>And, as previously stated, she was the
>first female soloist elected to the Country Music Hall of Fame.
Only because she died, Kitty Wells would have beaten her in if she had been
qualified (25 years) to be considered.
SavoyBG
>Most Patsy Cline fans, and the people in Nashville who knew Patsy,
>dislike "Sweet Dreams" because of it's characterization of Patsy.
But the millions of people who never heard of her before that didn't know the
difference and liked the movie, and then went and bought her music.
Bob Roman
> From: robert...@hotmail.com (Bob Roman)
> >Haggard on politics, 2001
> >O: How do you feel about being closely identified with the politics of
> >"Okie From Muskogee" and "The Fightin' Side Of Me" now?
>
> >MH: Oh, I must have been an idiot. It's documentation of the
> >uneducated that lived in America at the time, and I mirror that. I
> >always have.
>
> So he's decided to become politically correct nowadays, who cares?
"Politically correct" is thrown around so loosely. What do you mean
by it here?
> >MH: That's what I'm saying. That's the collective demeanor of America
> >at the time.
>
> As it should have been. DRUGS have never been a good thing.
"Okie From Muskogee" isn't primarily about drugs. It's about equating
the any social rebellion with the worst aspects of that rebellion, and
praising the most bland aspects of conformity because they are
unthreatening.
Bob Roman
Bob Roman
> I've NEVER once said that Cline wasn't significant.
>
> All I've said is that she does not belong among the top ten country artists of
> all time. I don't buy that she's as significant as people like Ernest Tubb and
> Merle Haggard.
I know why I think Ernest Tubb and Merle Haggard are significant. Why
do you think they are? If your answer simply comes down to number of
hits, there's really no point continuing the conversation. We will
never find a common ground.
Bob Roman
Steve2000indeja
em and obviously isn't afraid to speak -or change- his mind.
Bruce Springsteen was probably the first major artist to come out with a public
statement supporting the Dixie Chicks' right to criticize the President after
they did so and got bushwhacked by the US news media- which widely publicized
the Famous Comment and helped create the 'if you don't support the war, you're
unpatriotic'/ Chicks backlash during the (now, seemingly orchestrated)
war-fever days and weeks of a year ago.
Other rock artists eventually gave support to the Chicks, though some lesser
ones cowered or backed off, fearing that their own careers might be hurt by the
backlash.
No major country artists supported the Chicks publicly during those dark days.
Except Merle Haggard.
Writing in an editorial about the Chicks, the government and the war on his
website in July of last year, he said:
"I don't even know the Dixie chicks, but I find it an insult for all the men
and women who fought and died in past wars when almost the majority of America
jumped down their throats for voicing an opinion. It was like a verbal
witch-hunt and lynching. Whether I agree with their comments or not has no
bearing.
Those who have the gumption to investigate, know that the reputation of honesty
between the government and the people cannot reflect the reason for a single
man or woman to have confidence in what we're doing in current day conditions.
I'm suspicious, I'm paranoid, and I'm afraid. And the person who says he isn't
has not looked up or around lately." -Merle Haggard, July 2003.
Steve
donutbandit
news:288f4c2c.04013...@posting.google.com:
> If your answer simply comes down to number of
> hits, there's really no point continuing the conversation. We will
> never find a common ground.
>
The ONLY thing this man understands is charts, numbers, statistics. He's
proven that here over and over.
What a sad life the stathead must lead - nothing but black, white, and
shades of gray. They can't conceive of anything that doesn't have numbers
to form their opinion one way or the other.
Like I said before, the conversation is fruitless. He will still be
claiming he's right 6 months from now. Why? Because he sees NUMBERS that
indicate to him that he's right.
Intheway1
>
>You are looking at one of lists of "recordings" not of artists.
Nope, I'm looking at the list you put up in the previous post, the one you said
was the result of a newsgroup poll, the one you said was, in some way, proof of
the correlation between popularity and significance.
This list:
"She may not even be among the top 100 most significant musicians of the 1960s.
When I first came into this newsgroup I conducted a survey of the group's
favorite artists. Here are the results of that survey...
# 1 - THE BEATLES
# 2 - ROLLING STONES
# 3 - KINKS
# 4 - BOB DYLAN
# 5 - BEACH BOYS
# 6 - BYRDS
# 7 - THE WHO
# 8 - JIMI HENDRIX
# 9 - OTIS REDDING
# 10 - SMOKEY ROBINSON & THE MIRACLES
# 11 - JAMES BROWN
# 12 - CREAM
# 13 - HOLLIES
# 14 - YARDBIRDS
# 15 - THE TEMPTATIONS
# 16 - VELVET UNDERGROUND
# 17 - ANIMALS
# 18 - ARETHA FRANKLIN
# 19 - LOVE
# 20 - LOU CHRISTIE
# 20 - FOUR TOPS
# 21 - WILSON PICKETT
# 22 - CREEDENCE CLEARWATER REVIVAL
# 23 - ROY ORBISON
# 24 - BUFFALO SPRINGFIELD
# 25 - MARVIN GAYE
# 26 - PAUL REVERE AND THE RAIDERS
# 27 - SIMON AND GARUNKEL
# 28 - THEM / VAN MORRISON
# 29 - ZOMBIES
# 30 - LOVIN' SPOONFUL
# 31 - SMALL FACES
# 32 - DOORS
# 33 - DAVE CLARK FIVE
# 34 - JEFFERSON AIRPLANE
# 35 - SLY AND THE FAMILY STONE
# 36 - SAM AND DAVE
# 37 - CAPTAIN BEEFHEART
# 38 - THE TURTLES
# 39 - THE BAND
# 40 - STEVIE WONDER
# 41 - JOHNNY CASH
# 42 - LEFT BANKE
# 43 - MAMAS AND PAPAS
# 44 - SAM COOKE
# 45 - CURTIS MAYFIELD & IMPRESSIONS
# 46 - DRIFTERS
# 47 - MANFRED MANN
# 48 - DUSTY SPRINGFIELD
# 49 - B.B. KING
# 50 - THE MOVE
# 51 - HOWLIN' WOLF
# 52 - FRANK ZAPPA & MOTHERS OF INVENTION
# 53 - RONETTES
# 54 - DONOVAN
# 55 - SONICS
# 56 - FOUR SEASONS
# 57 - PRETTY THINGS
# 58 - SUPREMES
# 59 - FAIRPORT CONVENTION
# 60 - MC5
# 61 - MARTHA & VANDELLAS
# 62 - MOODY BLUES
# 63 - STEPPENWOLF
# 64 - BOOKER T. & THE MG's
# 65 - TRAFFIC
# 66 - ELVIS PRESLEY
# 67 - IKE & TINA TURNER
# 68 - BOBBY "BLUE" BLAND
# 69 - ASSOCIATION
# 70 - MERLE HAGGARD
# 71 - DEL SHANNON
# 72 - MITCH RYDER AND DETROIT WHEELS
# 73 - GRASS ROOTS
# 74 - RASCALS
# 75 - MONKEES
# 76 - MUDDY WATERS
# 77 - EASYBEATS
# 78 - PROCOL HARUM
# 79 - HERMAN'S HERMITS
# 80 - PINK FLOYD
# 81 - ETTA JAMES
# 82 - TROGGS
# 83 - BOBBY FULLER FOUR
# 84 - IRMA THOMAS
# 85 - TIM HARDIN
# 86 - BEE GEES
# 87 - SIR DOUGLAS QUINTET
# 88 - JUNIOR WALKER & THE ALL-STARS
# 89 - RAY CHARLES
# 90 - SEEDS
# 91 - SOLOMON BURKE
# 92 - VENTURES
# 93 - YOUNGBLOODS
# 94 - McCOYS
# 95 - TRASHMEN
# 96 - EVERLY BROTHERS
# 97 - BONZO DOG BAND
# 98 - 13TH FLOOR ELEVATORS
# 99 - WILLIAM BELL
# 100 - LITTLE MILTON
# 101 - TOMMY JAMES & SHONDELLS
# 102 - BLUE CHEER
# 103 - CHUCK BERRY
# 104 - LINK WRAY
# 105 - PETER, PAUL & MARY
# 106 - LESLEY GORE
# 107 - MOBY GRAPE
# 108 - TIM BUCKLEY
# 109 - PATSY CLINE
# 110 - DIONNE WARWICK
# 111 - BOX TOPS
# 112 - NEIL YOUNG
# 113 - SHIRELLES
# 114 - LEE DORSEY
She came in at # 109.
Haggard was # 70.
Cash was # 41.
Even in a pop, rock & soul newsgroup, without really any straight country fans,
Haggard, who didn't have big hit pop chart singles like Patsy, still finished
higher in the survey."
>
>Again, read my statement carefully.
>
>in over 90% of the cases, the artists who was most popular would also be
>more
>significant.
>
>This has NOTHING to do with my personal opinion of the artist's music.
I never said it did.
>
>I'm saying if you took EVERY artist who ever made a record, and put their
>name
>on a slip of paper, and dropped those millions of slips into a big container,
>and then pulled out two of those artists at random, that over 90% of the time
>the more popular of the two artists (record sales, chart performance) would
>be
>the more significant of the two artists.
>
So, what you are saying is that if we took two artists at random, from a "big
container" or a some list, nine times out of ten, the more "popular" artist
would also be the more "significant."
To test this theory, you would first have to assess the relative popularity of
the two artists.
Well, we already have a list of artists and they are already ranked by
popularity within the newsgroup? That's what you provided. So that step is
already done.
Then, if your 90% figure is in any way valid, nine times out of ten, the more
significant artist is going to be ranked higher in popularity. Your premise is
only true if nine of these ten artists (90%) are more significant than Elvis
(#66):
# 19 - LOVE
# 20 - LOU CHRISTIE
# 31 - SMALL FACES
# 37 - CAPTAIN BEEFHEART
# 38 - THE TURTLES
# 42 - LEFT BANKE
# 47 - MANFRED MANN
# 54 - DONOVAN
# 55 - SONICS
# 57 - PRETTY THINGS
>This does not translate to mean that any popular artist would be more
>significant than 90% of the artists who were less popular than him.
Unfortunately, Bruce, that's exactly what it translates to. If you pick two
artists at random, and can determine which one is more popular than the other,
if your premise is correct, and only if your premise is correct, 90% of the
time the more popular artist is going to be more significant. If there is a
90% chance that the less popular artist is less significant, there is an equal
90% chance the more popular artist is more significant. You can't have it one
way and not the other.
Fred
SavoyBG
>I know why I think Ernest Tubb and Merle Haggard are significant. Why
>do you think they are? If your answer simply comes down to number of
>hits, there's really no point continuing the conversation. We will
>never find a common ground.
Look, I admit that I don't know enough about country to argue this
intelligently, but from people who I do know who are big country fans, they
mention guys like Haggard and George Jones as being among the top artists of
all time. I've never heard them say much about Cline. She wasn't any kind of
innovator. She didn't really write many songs, did she?
I'm sorry she died, but I would say that the guy who compared her to Joplin was
probably right, she's at about the same level in country as Joplin is in rock.
William Cox
Bill
sav...@aol.com (SavoyBG) wrote in message news:<20040130144013...@mb-m02.aol.com>...
SavoyBG
>Nope, I'm looking at the list you put up in the previous post, the one you
>said
>was the result of a newsgroup poll, the one you said was, in some way, proof
>of
>the correlation between popularity and significance.
That was only for the 60s Fred, not for all time.
>So, what you are saying is that if we took two artists at random, from a "big
>container" or a some list, nine times out of ten, the more "popular" artist
>would also be the more "significant."
Yes, but ONLY if every artist who ever recorded was listed.
If for instance, we only took artists who had records on the charts, the
percentage would drop dramatically.
>Then, if your 90% figure is in any way valid, nine times out of ten, the more
>significant artist is going to be ranked higher in popularity. Your premise
>is
>only true if nine of these ten artists (90%) are more significant than Elvis
>(#66):
# 1 - That list is only for the 60s.
# 2 - Read above, it doesn't apply to ANY random group of artists like a
smapling of just 100 artists from a survey. It ONLY applies if EVERY artist who
ever made a record is included.
>If there is a
>90% chance that the less popular artist is less significant, there is an
>equal
>90% chance the more popular artist is more significant. You can't have it
>one
>way and not the other.
One more time.
It only applies if every artist that ever made a record is included.
The smaller the group of artists, the lower the percentage will be.
William Cox
sav...@aol.com (SavoyBG) wrote in message news:<20040130144313...@mb-m02.aol.com>...
William Cox
It doesn't matter how successful a woman becomes, what kind of impact
and influence she has, how much she's respected by her peers, no
matter what profession she might enter, you will always deem her to be
inferior to men and therefore insignificant.
It must be sad to have such a dim, limited view of the world.
Bill
sav...@aol.com (SavoyBG) wrote in message news:<20040130144313...@mb-m02.aol.com>...
SavoyBG
>Mark my words, you'll be eating that statement.
>
> Hopefully that won't ever happen. She has about as much influence on rock
>and
>> roll as I do.
EVERY act that the rock and roll hall of fame has inducted as an "early
influence" was recording already by 1951 at the latest, most much earlier. I
don't see any way that they could consider Cline an "early influence," being
that she didn't start recording until 1955, and didn't have a record that was
known by anybody until 1957.
They also haven't inducted anybody in that category for the last 3 years or so,
as if maybe they think they have gotten to everybody that they need to.
I don't see any chance of her getting in as an "early influence."
She has a better chance of getting in as a regular inductee, but that would be
preposterous if it happened.
SavoyBG
>Well, it's all clear to me now. You're biased against women.
LOL!!!
>It doesn't matter how successful a woman becomes, what kind of impact
>and influence she has, how much she's respected by her peers, no
>matter what profession she might enter, you will always deem her to be
>inferior to men and therefore insignificant.
Where are you getting this garbage from?
PRowan9262
>statements can't be trusted. Unless, of course, their statements support
>whatever position Bruce has taken. Then they take on the legitimacy of the
>Magna Carta.
Magna Carta is illigitimate!!!
Just another whiny piece of overrated paper hammered out by some piss-stained
lawyer, baby!!
Quit speaking for artists, Freddie!!!
You specialize in broken down has- beens who were too damn stupid to keep their
pockets protected from record owners in the past and shysters in the present,
baby!!!
Dennis C from Tennessee
PRowan9262
>and women who fought and died in past wars when almost the majority of
>America
>jumped down their throats for voicing an opinion. It was like a verbal
>witch-hunt and lynching. Whether I agree with their comments or not has no
>bearing.
>
>Those who have the gumption to investigate, know that the reputation of
>honesty
>between the government and the people cannot reflect the reason for a single
>man or woman to have confidence in what we're doing in current day
>conditions.
>I'm suspicious, I'm paranoid, and I'm afraid. And the person who says he
>isn't
>has not looked up or around lately." -Merle Haggard, July 2003.
Have another drink, Merle!!!
Dennis C from Tennessee
Intheway1
>
So your "90% rule" only applies to all artists for all time, and can't be used
for any smaller division?
>Yes, but ONLY if every artist who ever recorded was listed.
>
># 2 - Read above, it doesn't apply to ANY random group of artists like a
>smapling of just 100 artists from a survey. It ONLY applies if EVERY artist
>who
>ever made a record is included.
>
Then the premise is not only untestable, it is absolutely worthless.
Thanks for clearing that up.
Fred
Intheway1
>
Bill,
Bruce is not biased against women. He's an objective expert on them, and
should even be considered a historian on the subject because he was married to
one once.
Fred
William Cox
>
> Where are you getting this garbage from?
It may just be me, but it's exactly how you are coming across.
So, let me ask you: which female artists do you feel have had a
considerable impact and influence on their respective genres? Other
than the facts and figures you throw out, what criteria do you use
when determining such impact?
Bill
Dyuob Poltice
>I'm sorry she died, but I would say that the guy who compared her to Joplin was
>probably right, she's at about the same level in country as Joplin is in rock.
>
YES!!!
And since both are considered to be very important in their respective
genres by almost everyone else but you, maybe one day you will open
up your ears.
You are missing some terrific sounds out there, you need to get out of
that box.
============================
http://www.onlinerock.com/musicians/dyuob/
===========================================
"In this world, Elwood, you must be oh so smart,
or oh so pleasant. Well, for years I was smart.
I recommend pleasant."
SavoyBG
>So, let me ask you: which female artists do you feel have had a
>considerable impact and influence on their respective genres?
Just off the top of my head, I don't claim that this list is complete....
R & B
Ruth Brown
Lavern Baker
Big Maybelle
Little Esther
Ella Johnson
Dinah Washington
Etta James
Tina Turner
Soul
Aretha Franklin
Gladys Knight
Mary Wells
Linda Jones
Millie Jackson
Mavis Staples
Carla Thomas
Irma Thomas
Blues
Koko Taylor
Jazz vocals
Billie Holiday
Sarah Vaughan
Ella Fitzgerald
Gospel
Mahalia Jackson
Sister Rosetta Tharpe
Pop Vocals
Andrews Sisters
Dinah Washington
Dionne Warwick
Brenda Lee
Kay Starr
Peggy Lee
Rock & Roll
Linda Ronstadt
Joni Mitchell
Carole King
Heart
Country
Kitty Wells
Patsy Cline
Tammy Wynette
Loretta Lynn
Folk
Joan Baez
Disco
Donna Summer
Gloria Gaynor
Madonna
This is not to say that I like all of these artists, I don't. In most cases
these artists are not nearly as important or influential as many male artists
in those genres.
From the above list the only people who I would rank in the top ten overall
(male and female) in their genres are...
Soul
Aretha Franklin
Jazz Vocals
Billie Holiday
Sarah Vaughan
Ella Fitgerald
Gospel
Mahalia Jackson
Folk
Joan Baez (close)
Disco
Donna Summer
Madonna
I don't think that there's any female artist who is even close to being among
the top ten rock and roll, R & B, or pop artists.
I just don't see Patsy Cline as deserving of top ten status of all time among
all country artists.
I could be wrong, I'm no expert on country music, but the guys I know who are
seem to agree with me. I've checked with several of them since this thread
started.
SavoyBG
>And since both are considered to be very important in their respective
>genres by almost everyone else but you,
I think you are greatly exagerating what people think about Joplin. The people
in this group did not consider her to be among the best 100 artists of the
1960s when we did that survey a few years ago.
Any blues or soul record that she remade is better by the original artist, in
my opinion, and in the opinion of many people around here.
Cry Baby - Garnett Mimms
Piece Of My Heart - Erma Franklin
etc.......
>You are missing some terrific sounds out there, you need to get out of
>that box.
I think YOU'RE the one who is missing some teriffic sounds. Why don't you
investigate the artists that Joplin was trying to emulate.
Dyuob Poltice
>>From: Dyuob Poltice
>
>>And since both are considered to be very important in their respective
>>genres by almost everyone else but you,
>
>I think you are greatly exagerating what people think about Joplin. The people
>in this group did not consider her to be among the best 100 artists of the
>1960s when we did that survey a few years ago.
>
>Any blues or soul record that she remade is better by the original artist, in
>my opinion, and in the opinion of many people around here.
>
>Cry Baby - Garnett Mimms
>Piece Of My Heart - Erma Franklin
>etc.......
>
>>You are missing some terrific sounds out there, you need to get out of
>>that box.
>
>I think YOU'RE the one who is missing some teriffic sounds. Why don't you
>investigate the artists that Joplin was trying to emulate.
>
Oh, but I have.
And to me it's like comparing apples and oranges.
Why not appreciate both for what they are, not for what others think?
And since I formed my own opinions on what I like, I doubt whatever
group I'm in will change that.
SavoyBG
>Why not appreciate both for what they are, not for what others think?
I do.
I like both of those records (Cry Baby, Piece Of My Heart) by Joplin, but I
like them better by the original artists on both.
Janis is overrated by white rock and roll fans who never heard the real thing
before.
Todd Lucas
>all time, and can't be used for any smaller
>division?
Well, your Elvis example also lost a lot of steam if you're only
considering 60's impact.
Todd
William Cox
countering your arguments seem to understand: there is a distinct
dividing line based on gender. Female artists rarely cite male
influences, Male artists rarely cite female influences.
There have been very few rankings of Country Music's all-time greats
that are all-inclusive. Most rankings that are done are usually
"Greatest Male" or "Greatest Female." In the few all-inclusive
rankings that have been done, Patsy has rated very high. She may not
meet your criteria of overall significance, but she does meet the
criteria of those that matter.
Bill
sav...@aol.com (SavoyBG) wrote in message news:<20040130182904...@mb-m12.aol.com>...
SavoyBG
> there is a distinct
>dividing line based on gender. Female artists rarely cite male
>influences, Male artists rarely cite female influences.
Therefore since about 75% of the artists (or more) are male, then by definition
the female artists cannot be as significant.
Certainly lots of female artists were influenced by Hank Williams.
>She may not
>meet your criteria of overall significance, but she does meet the
>criteria of those that matter.
And what makes them matter more than me?
SavoyBG
>Could it be because "Crazy" was a
>crossover record that was played on pop/oldies stations?
Yes, she had 3 or 4 big pop chart hits. None of them sound very "country" to
me.
The only record by her that is real country, and that does anything for me is
"Walkin' At Midnight" (the original '57 version, not the later version with the
extra instrumentation).
William Cox
executives). They're the ones who are contacted when these types of
rankings are compiled. They're the members of the Country Music
Foundation. They're the members of the Hall of Fame induction
committee.
Like I've said previously, I came into this thread after seeing it
during a search on Google Groups. There may be a piece of information
I lack, but as far as I can tell you're just a music fan who has their
own criteria for determing an artist's impact, influence and
significance. That criteria seems to be weighted on dates, chart
rankings and other statistics.
If such definitive rankings were left up to the fans, modern Country
Music fans would probably say that Shania Twain was the most
influential artist of all time and should be inducted into the Country
Music Hall of Fame immediately. Patsy, George Jones and Johnny Cash
would rank high, while Merle Haggard, Ernest Tubb would rank much
lower. Fortunately, it's not up to the fans.
And, for the record, Shania Twain said in a televised interview on CMT
Canada that even though she's sold millions of records worldwide and
has had numerous chart hits, she will never have the impact or
influence that Patsy Cline has had.
Bill
sav...@aol.com (SavoyBG) wrote in message news:<20040131003955...@mb-m23.aol.com>...
Bob Roman
> From: robert...@hotmail.com (Bob Roman)
> I've never heard them say much about Cline. She wasn't any kind of
> innovator. She didn't really write many songs, did she?
Elvis, Jerry Lee Lewis, Bing, Sinatra, Jackie Wilson, George Jones...
> I'm sorry she died, but I would say that the guy who compared her to Joplin
> was probably right, she's at about the same level in country as Joplin is in
> rock.
Other than hard-core Janis Joplin fans, I don't think you would find
anyone to agree with that. It's historically inaccurate.
Bob Roman
PRowan9262
>Canada that even though she's sold millions of records worldwide and
>has had numerous chart hits, she will never have the impact or
>influence that Patsy Cline has had.
>
False modesty..........the cool thing to say.....Shania Twain is hardly an
expert on music history or its attendant influences and impact!!!
I happen to think that Twain has already surpassed Cline in the Country Music
rankings, baby!!
They were astonishingly similar artists.
Both totally dependant on industry songwriters and svengali -like producers who
puppeteer their every career moves!!!
Patsy Cline had the great career move of dying young( sure didn't hurt Richie
Valens and Buddy Holly) which lead to a couple of 80's era cinematic homages
that gave her historic impact a huge spike!!!
Looking at the old films of Patsy........I see no Jessica Lang or Beverly
DeAngelo....rather a overly labialed wooden frump tiredly intoning some very
well written tunes by Don Gibson and Willie Nelson, baby!!!
Shania Twain........on the other hand......has that ass!!!!
oooooh that ass!!!!
That's impact, baby!!!
Dennis C from Tennessee
SavoyBG
>Because they are in the industry (i.e. reviewers, critics, artists,
>executives).
Doesn't mean they know more than anybody else, in fact, most of the time they
get involved in agendas, and in personal feelings that they have for an artist
that they know, and may like, or may dislike.
I don't know that much about country, but I can tell you right now that I know
WAY more about R & B and rock and roll than most artists, industry people,
critics, etc...
>I lack, but as far as I can tell you're just a music fan who has their
>own criteria for determing an artist's impact, influence and
>significance.
As do the people in the industry, whose to say which criteria is the best one?
>That criteria seems to be weighted on dates, chart
>rankings and other statistics.
That's only part of it. If you looked at the list of significant females I gave
you, there were several that I listed that didn't do very well on the charts
(Irma Thomas, Linda Jones, Koko Taylor, etc...)
>If such definitive rankings were left up to the fans, modern Country
>Music fans would probably say that Shania Twain was the most
>influential artist of all time and should be inducted into the Country
>Music Hall of Fame immediately.
Not if the fans also had to wait until the artist's career was 25 years along.
That's the reason for that rule, so that people don't overreact to a hot
current artist.
>And, for the record, Shania Twain said in a televised interview on CMT
>Canada that even though she's sold millions of records worldwide and
>has had numerous chart hits, she will never have the impact or
>influence that Patsy Cline has had.
And what makes her an expert on that?
Just because she (apparently) has talent and is popular, in no way qualifies
her to judge the talent and significance of other artists. Has she gone back
and researched the history of country music?
Babe Ruth picked Hal Chase at the first baseman on his all time team, instead
of Gehrig. Should we assume that he knows something that the rrest of us
missed, because he was a great player, most likely the greatest player of all
time?
Having talent, whether it's athletic talent or musical talent, does not qaulify
you to judge the talents of others. There are seperate skills involved in those
two abilities.
I don't understand why people can't seem to comprehend this. Everybody always
thinks that somehow people who are good at something will be good judges of who
else is good at something.
It doesn't work that way.
SavoyBG
>Other than hard-core Janis Joplin fans, I don't think you would find
>anyone to agree with that. It's historically inaccurate.
Joplin is in the rock and roll hall of fame, Cline is in the country hall of
fame. I think the voters in each of those institutions would more or less agree
about their relative impact.
Joplin was inducted in 1995, about 3 years after she first became eligible.
Polls of rock and roll artists like the ones on VH-1 rank her very high.
I think a lot of people would agree with that assessment.
Jim Colegrove
>>From: "DianeE"
>
>>Could it be because "Crazy" was a
>>crossover record that was played on pop/oldies stations?
>
>Yes, she had 3 or 4 big pop chart hits. None of them sound very "country" to
>me.
>
That's because they are pop records.
>The only record by her that is real country, and that does anything for me is
>"Walkin' At Midnight" (the original '57 version, not the later version with the
>extra instrumentation).
>
>
I happen to agree.
Jim Colegrove