Music Pioneer Ahmet Ertegun Dies at 83 Email this Story
Dec 14, 6:33 PM (ET)
By NEKESA MUMBI MOODY
NEW YORK (AP) - Ahmet Ertegun, who helped define American music as the founder of Atlantic Records, a label that popularized the gritty R&B of Ray Charles, the classic soul of Aretha Franklin and the British rock of the Rolling Stones, has died, his spokesman said. He was 83.
Ertegun remained connected to the music scene until his last days - it was at an Oct. 29 concert by the Rolling Stones at the Beacon Theatre in New York where Ertegun fell, suffered a head injury and was hospitalized. He later slipped into a coma.
"He was in a coma and expired today with his family at his bedside," said Dr. Howard A. Riina, Ertegun's neurosurgeon at New York Presbyterian Hospital-Weill Cornell Medical Center.
Ertegun will be buried in a private ceremony in his native Turkey, said Bob Kaus, a spokesman for Ertegun and Atlantic Records. A memorial service will be conducted in New York after the New Year's.
Ertegun, a Turkish ambassador's son, started collecting records for fun, but would later became one of the music industry's most powerful figures with Atlantic, which he founded in 1947.
The label first made its name with rhythm and blues by Charles and Big Joe Turner, but later diversified, making Franklin the Queen of Soul as well as carrying the banner of British rock (with the Rolling Stones, Cream, Led Zeppelin) and American pop (with Sonny & Cher, Crosby, Stills, Nash & Young, and others).
Today, the company, part of Warner Music Group, is the home to artists including Kid Rock, James Blunt, T.I., and Missy Elliott.
Ertegun's love of music began with jazz, back when he and his late brother Nesuhi (an esteemed producer of such jazz acts as Charles Mingus and Ornette Coleman) used to hang around with Louis Armstrong and Duke Ellington in the clubs of Washington, D.C.
"My father was a diplomat who was ambassador to Switzerland, France and England before he became ambassador to the United States, and we lived in all those countries and we always had music in the house, and a lot of it was a kind of popular music, and we heard a lot of jazz," Ertegun recalled in an interview with The Associated Press. "By the time we came to Washington, we were collecting records and we amassed a collection of some 25,000 blues and jazz records."
Ertegun parlayed his love of music into a career when he founded Atlantic with partner Herb Abramson and a $10,000 loan. When the label first started, it made its name with blues-edged recordings by acts such as Ruth Brown.
Despite his privileged background, which included attending prep school and socializing with Washington's elite, Ertegun was able to mix with all kinds of people - an attribute that made him not just a marketer of black music, but a part of it, said Jerry Wexler.
"The transition between these two worlds is one of Ahmet's most distinguishing characteristics," Wexler said.
Black music was the backbone of the label for years - it was Atlantic, under Wexler's production genius, that helped make Franklin the top black female singer of her day.
"We had some pop music - we had Bobby Darin ... and we developed other pop artists such as Sonny and Cher and Bette Midler and so on," said Ertegun. "But we had been most effective that set a style as purveyors of African-American music. And we were the kings of that until the arrival of Motown Records, which was long after we started."
But once music tastes changed, Ertegun switched gears and helped bring on the British invasion in the '60s.
"If Atlantic had restricted itself to R&B music, I have no doubt that it would be extinct today," Wexler said.
Instead, it became even bigger.
In later years, Ertegun signed Midler, Roberta Flack and ABBA. He had a gift for being able to pick out what would be a commercial smash, said the late producer Arif Mardin, who remembered one session where he was working with the Bee Gees on an album - but was unsure of what he had produced.
"Then Ahmet came and listened to it, and said, 'You've got hits here, you've got dance hits,'" Mardin once told the AP. "I was involved in such a way that I didn't see the forest for the trees. ... He was like the steadying influence."
One strength of the company was Ertegun's close relationships with many of the artists - relationships that continued even after they left his label. Midler still called for advice, and he visited Franklin's home when he dropped into Detroit.
His friendships extended to the younger generation, too, including Kid Rock and Lil' Kim.
Besides his love of music, Ertegun was also known for his love of art, and socializing. It was not uncommon to find him at a party with his wife, Mica, hanging out until all hours with friends.
Although he was slowed by triple-bypass surgery in 2001, he still went into his office almost daily to listen for his next hit.
Finding those hits were among the most wonderful moments in his life, he said.
"I've been in the studio when you go through a track and you run down a track and you know even before the singer starts singing, you know the track is swinging ... you know you have a multimillion-seller hit - and what you're working on suddenly has magic," he said. "That's the biggest."
Thanks from the bottom of my heart, Ahmet, for bringing what you knew was great music to us, the fans, down through the years, and enabling artists to heard far and wide who might not have had that chance.
This is the biggest kind of non-performer loss, but rock and soul music consumers were the richer for your industrious labors of love in the music industry.
Some random favorite Atlantic lps, here and there:
"Joe Turner" My Favorite Things - John Coltrane Lady Soul - Aretha Franklin Buffalo Springfield Again Layla & Other Assorted Love Songs - Derek & The Dominoes In A Broadway Bag - Bobby Darin Blind Faith The Genius Of Ray Charles The Drifters Greatest Hits "Spinners"
If you haven't seen the documentary, "Tom Dowd & the Language of Music", now would be a good time to netflix it. Dowd was Atlantic's top recording engineer during its heyday. Ertegun is featured pretty prominently.
Dowd was like the "Forrest Gump" of the recording industry...it's an incredible life story, and it's a shame more people don't know it.
> Music Pioneer Ahmet Ertegun Dies at 83 > Email this Story
> Dec 14, 6:33 PM (ET)
> By NEKESA MUMBI MOODY
> NEW YORK (AP) - Ahmet Ertegun, who helped define American music as the > founder of Atlantic Records, a label that popularized the gritty R&B of > Ray Charles, the classic soul of Aretha Franklin and the British rock > of the Rolling Stones, has died, his spokesman said. He was 83.
While this in no way is meant to underestimate the vast contributions of Ertegun, for the record Atlantic didn't popularize the Stones; they were already superstars when they switched to the company in the early 70s.
> Music Pioneer Ahmet Ertegun Dies at 83 > Email this Story
> Dec 14, 6:33 PM (ET)
> By NEKESA MUMBI MOODY
[...]
> The label first made its name with rhythm and blues by [Ray] Charles and Big > Joe Turner
Turner already had a relationship with Herb Abramson, for the National label, before Atlantic was formed.
> Ertegun parlayed his love of music into a career when he founded > Atlantic with partner Herb Abramson[...]
Abramson was president and Ertegun was vice-president. Abramson had previous experience recording "black" music for indies, and at the time knew far more about the music business than Ertegun did.
When the label
> first started, it made its name with blues-edged recordings by acts > such as Ruth Brown.
Largely. Quoting David Edwards and Mike Callahan: "The early Atlantic roster was eclectic, to say the least. It included Stan Kenton band members Art Pepper, Shelly Manne, and Pete Rugolo, guitarist Tiny Grimes, vocal groups such as the Delta Rhythm Boys, the Clovers, and the Cardinals, rhythm and blues singers Ruth Brown, Stick McGhee and Joe Turner, pianists Erroll Garner and Mal Waldron, progressive jazz artists Howard McGhee, James Moody and Dizzy Gillespie, jazz singers Jackie & Roy and Sarah Vaughan, blues singers Leadbelly and Sonny Terry, and café society singers Mabel Mercer, Sylvia Syms and Bobby Short."
[...]it was Atlantic,
> under Wexler's production genius, that helped make Franklin the top > black female singer of her day.
Diana Ross wasn't bigger?
> "We had some pop music - we had Bobby Darin ... and we developed other > pop artists such as Sonny and Cher and Bette Midler and so on," said > Ertegun. "But we had been most effective that set a style as purveyors > of African-American music.
Whether Atlantic set a "style" re "black" popular music is arguable. Lots of labels participated in the way "black" popular music evolved during the late '40s and '50s.
And we were the kings of that until the
> arrival of Motown Records, which was long after we started."
In general, yes, although Atlantic didn't have a huge year compared to its competitors in '56, for example:
December 15, 2006 Ahmet Ertegun, Music Executive, Dies at 83 By TIM WEINER [...] Ever conscious of the music's roots, Mr. Ertegun was also a prime mover in starting the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame and Museum.
This sentence is misleading, because that particular hall of fame has _not_ done a good job of recognizing roots artists such as Wynonie Harris and Roy Brown, and is better at recognizing very well-known artists (whether they had all that much to do with rock and roll or not) than "roots" artists.
[...]Atlantic[...] mingled blues and jazz with the mambo of New Orleans, the urban blues of Chicago, the swing of Kansas City and the sophisticated rhythms and arrangements of New York.
As did countless other '50s labels. And except for mambo, all this stuff was being mingled in "black" popular music plenty before Atlantic even started up.
[...]In 1954, Atlantic released both "I Got a Woman" by Ray Charles and "Shake, Rattle and Roll" by Joe Turner. (Mr. Ertegun was a backup singer on "Shake, Rattle and Roll.") The songs had a good beat, and people danced to them.
Which is also true of hit records Charles and Turner had before they signed to Atlantic...
They were among the strongest roots of rock and roll.
Nah, the strongest roots of rock and roll are various recordings of 1949-1953, many of which can be heard at
[...]"Together, they helped move rhythm and blues to the center of American popular music."[...]
Along with all the other labels that recorded "black" music in the '40s and '50s, and all the other people who set out to popularize "black" music with Americans in general during the '30s-'50s (e.g., John Hammond was promoting boogie-woogie to "whites" big-time as of 1939).
Louisiana Lou wrote: > True. Ed Sullivan probably did more to popularize them while they were > still on the London label in the '60s. IIRC, they signed with Atco in > or about 1970 or '71.
> > Music Pioneer Ahmet Ertegun Dies at 83 > > Email this Story
> > Dec 14, 6:33 PM (ET)
> > By NEKESA MUMBI MOODY
> [...] > > The label first made its name with rhythm and blues by [Ray] Charles and Big > > Joe Turner
> Turner already had a relationship with Herb Abramson, for the National > label, before Atlantic was formed.
> > Ertegun parlayed his love of music into a career when he founded > > Atlantic with partner Herb Abramson[...]
> Abramson was president and Ertegun was vice-president. Abramson had > previous experience recording "black" music for indies, and at the time > knew far more about the music business than Ertegun did.
> When the label > > first started, it made its name with blues-edged recordings by acts > > such as Ruth Brown.
> Largely. Quoting David Edwards and Mike Callahan: "The early Atlantic > roster was eclectic, to say the least. It included Stan Kenton band > members Art Pepper, Shelly Manne, and Pete Rugolo, guitarist Tiny > Grimes, vocal groups such as the Delta Rhythm Boys, the Clovers, and > the Cardinals, rhythm and blues singers Ruth Brown, Stick McGhee and > Joe Turner, pianists Erroll Garner and Mal Waldron, progressive jazz > artists Howard McGhee, James Moody and Dizzy Gillespie, jazz singers > Jackie & Roy and Sarah Vaughan, blues singers Leadbelly and Sonny > Terry, and café society singers Mabel Mercer, Sylvia Syms and Bobby > Short."
> [...]it was Atlantic, > > under Wexler's production genius, that helped make Franklin the top > > black female singer of her day.
> Diana Ross wasn't bigger?
> > "We had some pop music - we had Bobby Darin ... and we developed other > > pop artists such as Sonny and Cher and Bette Midler and so on," said > > Ertegun. "But we had been most effective that set a style as purveyors > > of African-American music.
> Whether Atlantic set a "style" re "black" popular music is arguable. > Lots of labels participated in the way "black" popular music evolved > during the late '40s and '50s.
> And we were the kings of that until the > > arrival of Motown Records, which was long after we started."
> In general, yes, although Atlantic didn't have a huge year compared to > its competitors in '56, for example:
> December 15, 2006 > Ahmet Ertegun, Music Executive, Dies at 83 > By TIM WEINER > [...] > Ever conscious of the music's roots, Mr. Ertegun was also a prime > mover in > starting the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame and Museum.
> This sentence is misleading, because that particular hall of fame has > _not_ done a good job of recognizing roots artists such as Wynonie > Harris and Roy Brown, and is better at recognizing very well-known > artists (whether they had all that much to do with rock and roll or > not) than "roots" artists.
> [...]Atlantic[...] mingled blues and jazz with the mambo of New > Orleans, the urban blues of > Chicago, the swing of Kansas City and the sophisticated rhythms and > arrangements of New York.
> As did countless other '50s labels. And except for mambo, all this > stuff was being mingled in "black" popular music plenty before Atlantic > even started up.
> [...]In 1954, Atlantic released both "I Got a Woman" by Ray Charles > and "Shake, > Rattle and Roll" by Joe Turner. (Mr. Ertegun was a backup singer on > "Shake, > Rattle and Roll.") The songs had a good beat, and people danced to > them.
> Which is also true of hit records Charles and Turner had before they > signed to Atlantic...
> They were among the strongest roots of rock and roll.
> Nah, the strongest roots of rock and roll are various recordings of > 1949-1953, many of which can be heard at
> [...]"Together, they > helped move rhythm and blues to the center of American popular > music."[...]
> Along with all the other labels that recorded "black" music in the '40s > and '50s, and all the other people who set out to popularize "black" > music with Americans in general during the '30s-'50s (e.g., John > Hammond was promoting boogie-woogie to "whites" big-time as of 1939).
> Joseph Scott
RIP...Ahmet Ertegun's label would of course go on to, in the late 1960s, Iron Butterfly, Derek and the Dominoes (these last two through Atco), Led Zeppelin,then many, many more.
j_nsc...@msn.com wrote: > Some perspective on some of the claims in these articles (not intended > as a knock against the great Mr. Ertegun):
> [...] > > The label first made its name with rhythm and blues by [Ray] Charles and Big > > Joe Turner
> Turner already had a relationship with Herb Abramson, for the National > label, before Atlantic was formed.
That doesn't bear on how Atlantic made its name.
> > Ertegun parlayed his love of music into a career when he founded > > Atlantic with partner Herb Abramson[...]
> Abramson was president and Ertegun was vice-president. Abramson had > previous experience recording "black" music for indies, and at the time > knew far more about the music business than Ertegun did.
They were still co-founders of the label, and partners.
> > [...]it was Atlantic, > > under Wexler's production genius, that helped make Franklin the top > > black female singer of her day.
> Diana Ross wasn't bigger?
You could run year-by-year chart and sales data on both singers to see who "wins"; Ross certainly had more #1 hits, especially if you include her records with The Supremes, but Franklin was (and still is) generally much more highly regarded as a singer. One could argue Franklin as the "greatest black female singer of her day," if you don't like "top"; there are other contenders, but Diana Ross isn't amongst them.
> > "We had some pop music - we had Bobby Darin ... and we developed other > > pop artists such as Sonny and Cher and Bette Midler and so on," said > > Ertegun. "But we had been most effective that set a style as purveyors > > of African-American music.
> Whether Atlantic set a "style" re "black" popular music is arguable. > Lots of labels participated in the way "black" popular music evolved > during the late '40s and '50s.
Atlantic's records were distinctive, and brought a new level of recording quality and production to R&B. Like the sound or not, there's no question Atlantic set a style. It's a little hard to tell exactly what Ertegun was claiming, however, given how badly that quote is mangled.
> > And we were the kings of that until the > > arrival of Motown Records, which was long after we started."
> In general, yes, although Atlantic didn't have a huge year compared to > its competitors in '56, for example:
In that list, Atlantic has the most entries of any single record company. It's also the only company not dependent on a single artist for all its entries, save that King has one Bill Doggett record in addition to its two Little Willie John hits. So, I'd say the chart backs up Ertegun's claim.
> > [...]In 1954, Atlantic released both "I Got a Woman" by Ray Charles > > and "Shake, Rattle and Roll" by Joe Turner. (Mr. Ertegun was a backup > > singer on "Shake, Rattle and Roll.") The songs had a good beat, and > > people danced to them.
> Which is also true of hit records Charles and Turner had before they > signed to Atlantic...
It's a little disingenuous to suggest that either artist was as successful prior to signing with Atlantic as they were afterwards, particularly in the case of Ray Charles.
> > They were among the strongest roots of rock and roll.
> Nah, the strongest roots of rock and roll are various recordings of > 1949-1953, many of which can be heard at
"Among" means they weren't alone. Big Joe Turner is listed at hoyhoy; Ray Charles isn't, but should be.
> > [...]"Together, they helped move rhythm and blues to the center of American popular > > music."[...]
> Along with all the other labels that recorded "black" music in the '40s > and '50s, and all the other people who set out to popularize "black" > music with Americans in general during the '30s-'50s (e.g., John > Hammond was promoting boogie-woogie to "whites" big-time as of 1939).
Hence, the word, "helped."
For someone claiming no intention to knock Ahmet Ertegun, it seems as if your post is designed explicitly to do just that.
Interesting facts about the very famous label layout.
1.Its "Atco" subsid. had a different font (plus bugle), though usually with the same divided-color scheme as the parent.
2. That Abnak label that the Five Americans (most remembered today for the top five hit of 1967, "Western Union", but also for "I see the Light" and "The Sound of Love" as well), founded by Dale "Susie Q" Hawkins, is an almost BLATANT rip off on the "Atlantic", only with modified "ersatz-Atlantic" font, and different label color by the time that the records mentioned above came out, but the same color that Atlantic its had started (red,white),..
Mike G wrote: > "Steve Carras" <gcar...@aol.com> wrote:
> > RIP...Ahmet Ertegun's label would of course go on to, in the late > > 1960s, Iron Butterfly, Derek and the Dominoes (these last two through > > Atco), Led Zeppelin,then many, many more.
> Sure isn't much going on at Atlantic nowadays, though. Not counting > a stray affiliated-label disc or two (Art Brut!), one Tori Amos CD > is all I have from Atlantic during the whole '00s decade.
As if we think that your collection is an accurate barometer of what's going on these days.
Mike G wrote: > "Steve Carras" <gcar...@aol.com> wrote:
>>RIP...Ahmet Ertegun's label would of course go on to, in the late >>1960s, Iron Butterfly, Derek and the Dominoes (these last two through >>Atco), Led Zeppelin,then many, many more.
> Sure isn't much going on at Atlantic nowadays, though.
Most decent artists left Atlantic, long ago. Actually, you'll find most artists who were on Atlantic, stepping into every recording studio, afterwards, trying to make some decent money, with remakes, since Atlantic didn't do them well. Atlantic Records was like - a nice place to visit, but I wouldn't want to live there, label. Hall & Oates wised up.
> a stray affiliated-label disc or two (Art Brut!), one Tori Amos CD > is all I have from Atlantic during the whole '00s decade. And she > subsequently left and signed with Epic, so no glory there. The rest > of the roster is mostly just product and packaging.
> Folks might be interested in this link, if it wasn't already posted:
> > > Sure isn't much going on at Atlantic nowadays, though. Not counting > > > a stray affiliated-label disc or two (Art Brut!), one Tori Amos CD > > > is all I have from Atlantic during the whole '00s decade.
> > As if we think that your collection is an accurate barometer of what's > > going on these days.
> It's certainly miles and miles more "accurate" about it than yours.
I'm not saying my collection has anything to do with what's going on nowadays, I don't even own any modern music. I'm saying that with your disdain for what the general public likes, and with your almost complete lack of taste for rap and hip hip, that your collection is not a good barometer for what's going on now.
> I can't imagine why you even try to pose knowledgeable about issues > like this. Have you even *heard of* Tori Amos? And I don't even need > to ask about Art Brut....
Let's see what RYM has listed for this decade, here's their top rated albums from 2000 and on:
I see there's no Tori Amos or Art Brut in the top 400 albums.
Here the 2000s albums on Atlantic that have a lot of ratings at RYM:
2000 Uncle Kracker Double Wide 83279-2 3 45 2.42 2000 Lil' Kim Notorious K.I.M. 92840-2 2 36 3.21 2000 Taproot Gift 12 96 3.33 2000 Harold Budd The Room 7567-83382-2 1 19 3.84 2000 Collective Soul Blender 83400 9 84 3.10 2001 Big Wreck The Pleasure and the Greed 83452-2 5 34 3.44 2001 Jewel This Way 83519-2 13 106 3.39 2001 Stone Temple Pilots Shangri-LA DEE DA 7567-83449-2 15 265 3.22 2001 Judas Priest Demolition 14 114 2.88
2001 Tori Amos Strange Little Girls [Happiness Is a Warm Gun - The Seductress Cover] 7567-83486-2 4 2.87 2001 Tori Amos Strange Little Girls [Strange Little Girl Cover] 7567-83486-2 2 4.00
Not many ratings on this, but here's your Tori Amos.
2001 Collective Soul 7even Year Itch 83510 13 90 3.99 2001 Bush Golden State 83488 18 188 2.97 2002 Simple Plan No Pads, No Helmets...Just Balls 93119 93 250 1.91 2002 Duncan Sheik Daylight 83569-2 2 22 3.51 2002 Taproot Welcome 15 117 3.16 2002 Sean Paul Dutty Rock 83620-2 12 59 2.81 2003 Junior Senior D-D-Don't Don't Stop the Beat 13 128 3.62 2003 Lil' Kim La Bella Mafia 83572-2 6 38 3.21 2003 Led Zeppelin How the West Was Won 83587-2 73 751 4.37 2003 The Darkness Permission to Land 8 2564-60817-2 1 155 866 3.30 2003 T.I. Trap Muzik 83650-2 6 39 3.55 2003 Rush Rush in Rio 18 186 4.06 2003 Tori Amos Tales of a Librarian [CD + DVD] 83658-2 1 11 3.50 2003 Tori Amos Tales of a Librarian 83658-2 14 142 3.90 2004 The Corrs Borrowed Heaven 7567 793243-2 7 62 3.34 2004 Rush Feedback 24 158 3.62 2004 Dream Theater Live at Budokan 8122-76545-2 8 208 4.00 2004 James Blunt Back to Bedlam 7567-83752-5 62 295 2.80 2004 T.I. Urban Legend 83734-2 7 42 3.53 2005 Dream Theater Octavarium 66 657 3.65 2005 Missy Elliott The Cookbook 83779-2 6 65 3.16 2005 Taproot Blue-Sky Research 1 28 3.82 2005 Death Cab for Cutie Plans 83834-2 51 674 3.70 2005 Little Brother The Minstrel Show 83783-2 8 60 3.93 2005 Lil' Kim The Naked Truth 83818-1 2005 Lil' Kim The Naked Truth 83818-2 4 25 2.91 2005 The Corrs Home 505 1011 0293 2 5 2 32 3.27 2006 Get Cape. Wear Cape. Fly The Chronicles of a Bohemian Teenager 1 19 3.72 2006 George Carlin Life Is Worth Losing 83892-2 3 19 4.18 2006 P.O.D. Testify 7567-83857-2 56 3.37 2006 T.I. King 7567-83800-2 8 73 3.52 2006 Zero 7 The Garden 63380 7 104 3.33 2006 Lupe Fiasco Food & Liquor 83959-2 19 111 3.83 2006 Lupe Fiasco Food & Liquor [Expanded] 94535-2 5 3.98
Apparanetly the members at RYM think that Ruch, Dream Theater, Collective Soul, Junior Senior, Death Cab, Little Brother and Lupe Fiasco are "going on," as well as one Tori Amos album.
Maybe it'e me, Mike, But I accept the collective opinions of the members over there as a barometer to what's "going on" over your lone biased view.
> If you haven't seen the documentary, "Tom Dowd & the Language of > Music", now would be a good time to netflix it. Dowd was Atlantic's > top recording engineer during its heyday. Ertegun is featured pretty > prominently.
> Dowd was like the "Forrest Gump" of the recording industry...it's an > incredible life story, and it's a shame more people don't know it.
> -Dave
LOL . . . If someone called me the Forrest Gump of my profession, I'm not sure I'd take it as a compliment. Nonetheless, the man's life is . . was. . . is . .. fascinating. HH
> > Maybe it'e me, Mike, But I accept the collective opinions of the > > members over there as a barometer to what's "going on" over your lone > > biased view.
> You don't accept anything. You're just being superficially contrary > in the hopes of irritating me.
> And of course that site supports Rush, Collective Soul, P.O.D. and > Dream Theater. Goes along perfectly with that site's odd > prog/hard-rock bent.
> Death Cab for Cutie and Missy Elliott have cred, though I'm not a > fan of either. Rush, Stone Temple Pilots and Dream Theater have > some, but are rather old-school. Most of those other acts are a > washout. James Blunt is a big seller for the moment, but is > horrifying schlock. Bush was a total joke, and is reduced to being a > "trophy husband" now.
> Please stop arguing about subjects you know absolutely nothing > about. Thanks.
You're NOT welcome.
Like I said, I don't think whether or not you have something in your collection is a sign of credibility or of what's "going on."
"hamburger helper" <noth...@nothing.com> writes: > "Dave Sill" <d...@sill.org> wrote in message > news:wx08xh9hwh7.fsf@sws5.ornl.gov... >> If you haven't seen the documentary, "Tom Dowd & the Language of >> Music", now would be a good time to netflix it. Dowd was Atlantic's >> top recording engineer during its heyday. Ertegun is featured pretty >> prominently.
>> Dowd was like the "Forrest Gump" of the recording industry...it's an >> incredible life story, and it's a shame more people don't know it.
> LOL . . . If someone called me the Forrest Gump of my profession, I'm not > sure I'd take it as a compliment. Nonetheless, the man's life is . . was. . > . is . .. fascinating.
I was referring to Forrest Gump's habit of being at crucial points in history without achieving any celebrity. Of course in Gump's case it was fictional and incidental, whereas Dowd was the real thing, and was there at crucial moments because he was a genius at what he did, and he *made* them crucial moments.
> > Some perspective on some of the claims in these articles (not intended > > as a knock against the great Mr. Ertegun):
> > [...] > > > The label first made its name with rhythm and blues by [Ray] Charles and Big > > > Joe Turner
> > Turner already had a relationship with Herb Abramson, for the National > > label, before Atlantic was formed.
> That doesn't bear on how Atlantic made its name.
Without Abramson's connections and experience Atlantic might not have made a name.
[...]
> > > [...]it was Atlantic, > > > under Wexler's production genius, that helped make Franklin the top > > > black female singer of her day.
> > Diana Ross wasn't bigger?
> You could run year-by-year chart and sales data on both singers to see > who "wins"; Ross certainly had more #1 hits, especially if you include > her records with The Supremes, but Franklin was (and still is) > generally much more highly regarded as a singer. One could argue > Franklin as the "greatest black female singer of her day," if you don't > like "top"; there are other contenders, but Diana Ross isn't amongst > them.
I thought the writer was trying to claim that Franklin was the most successful of the era. After all, the claim wouldn't be that Atlantic "helped make" her a really great singer, would it, because she already was a really great singer. Atlantic helped her make records that sold very, very well (although not actually better than those of any other "black" female).
> > > "We had some pop music - we had Bobby Darin ... and we developed other > > > pop artists such as Sonny and Cher and Bette Midler and so on," said > > > Ertegun. "But we had been most effective that set a style as purveyors > > > of African-American music.
> > Whether Atlantic set a "style" re "black" popular music is arguable. > > Lots of labels participated in the way "black" popular music evolved > > during the late '40s and '50s.
> Atlantic's records were distinctive, and brought a new level of > recording quality and production to R&B.
I agree about recording quality.
Like the sound or not, there's
> no question Atlantic set a style.
Which sounds like what?
[...]
> > > And we were the kings of that until the > > > arrival of Motown Records, which was long after we started."
> > In general, yes, although Atlantic didn't have a huge year compared to > > its competitors in '56, for example:
> In that [1956] list, Atlantic has the most entries of any single record > company.
And zero entries above #13, in contrast to King, Imperial, Specialty, Mercury, Gee, Sun, and Aladdin.
It's also [in 1956] the only company not dependent on a single artist
> for all its entries, save that King has one Bill Doggett record [at #1] in > addition to its two Little Willie John hits [one of them at #4].
I don't think number of different artists in a record company's top sellers is relevant to whether the company has had a successful year.
[...]
> > > [...]In 1954, Atlantic released both "I Got a Woman" by Ray Charles > > > and "Shake, Rattle and Roll" by Joe Turner. (Mr. Ertegun was a backup > > > singer on "Shake, Rattle and Roll.") The songs had a good beat, and > > > people danced to them.
> > Which is also true of hit records Charles and Turner had before they > > signed to Atlantic...
> It's a little disingenuous to suggest that either artist was as > successful prior to signing with Atlantic as they were afterwards, > particularly in the case of Ray Charles.
This is a straw man.
> > > They were among the strongest roots of rock and roll.
> > Nah, the strongest roots of rock and roll are various recordings of > > 1949-1953, many of which can be heard at
Imo "I Got A Woman" isn't "among the strongest roots" of rock and roll.
Big Joe Turner is listed at hoyhoy;
> Ray Charles isn't, but should be.
I disagree; I don't think Charles made any recordings during the relevant period that meet Morgan's stylistic cutoffs. Charles was basically busy inventing something else during the early '50s, not helping invent the rock and roll sound.
[...]
> For someone claiming no intention to knock Ahmet Ertegun, it seems as > if your post is designed explicitly to do just that.
I knocked a few of the claims made by Moody and a few made by Weiner.
> > > > The label first made its name with rhythm and blues by [Ray] Charles and Big > > > > Joe Turner
> > > Turner already had a relationship with Herb Abramson, for the National > > > label, before Atlantic was formed.
> > That doesn't bear on how Atlantic made its name.
> Without Abramson's connections and experience Atlantic might not have > made a name.
And this changes the claim that "[Atlantic] first made its name with rhythm and blues by [Ray] Charles and Big Joe Turner," how, exactly? It's a simple statement of fact. Yes, Abramson was vital to Atlantic's initial success, but so was Ahmet Ertegun, who was right there with Abramson from day one; and it was Ertegun who steered the company to greater success after 1953, even though Abramson was still nominally the company's president.
> I thought the writer was trying to claim that Franklin was the most > successful of the era. After all, the claim wouldn't be that Atlantic > "helped make" her a really great singer, would it, because she already > was a really great singer. Atlantic helped her make records that sold > very, very well (although not actually better than those of any other > "black" female).
On the contrary, Aretha's records in her prime years at Atlantic sold better than those of most other singers, regardless of gender or ethnicity...even if she didn't outsell Diana Ross. And, although she was already a great singer, there is a world of difference between her records for Columbia and those for Atlantic. Atlantic may not have made her a great singer, but---via the direction of Jerry Wexler and Arif Mardin---it did make her a great recording artist.
> > > Whether Atlantic set a "style" re "black" popular music is arguable. > > > Lots of labels participated in the way "black" popular music evolved > > > during the late '40s and '50s.
> > Atlantic's records were distinctive, and brought a new level of > > recording quality and production to R&B.
> I agree about recording quality.
> > Like the sound or not, there's > > no question Atlantic set a style.
> Which sounds like what?
Which sounds like an Atlantic record. Atlantic used a wider range of producers and writers than, say, Motown, so it's style was more diffuse, but it was still identifiable (at least, during its earlier years.)
> I don't think number of different artists in a record company's top > sellers is relevant to whether the company has had a successful year.
The number of Atlantic artists in the top 30 speaks to the depth of its artist roster in that year, and to how much the record company can be credited for its own apparent success. It's also a likely indicator of presence down the rest of the chart, where there's plenty of money to be found. (Consider Atlantic's longevity vs. what happened at Specialty after Little Richard found God.)
> > > > [...]In 1954, Atlantic released both "I Got a Woman" by Ray Charles > > > > and "Shake, Rattle and Roll" by Joe Turner. (Mr. Ertegun was a backup > > > > singer on "Shake, Rattle and Roll.") The songs had a good beat, and > > > > people danced to them.
> > > Which is also true of hit records Charles and Turner had before they > > > signed to Atlantic...
> > It's a little disingenuous to suggest that either artist was as > > successful prior to signing with Atlantic as they were afterwards, > > particularly in the case of Ray Charles.
> This is a straw man.
Not really. The point of the original quote is not merely that the records "had a good beat, and people danced to them," but that they were hugely successful in terms of both sales and influence. As with Aretha Franklin, Atlantic doesn't get credit for the artists' talent, but the label is the common denominator in their increasing successes.
Your reponse to that was dismissive. Perhaps you merely found the writer's characterization of the records to be to be facile, but it looks to me as if you're dismissing Atlantic's role, and Ertegun's, if not the actual records.
> Imo "I Got A Woman" isn't "among the strongest roots" of rock and roll.
> > Big Joe Turner is listed at hoyhoy; > > Ray Charles isn't, but should be.
> I disagree; I don't think Charles made any recordings during the > relevant period that meet Morgan's stylistic cutoffs. Charles was > basically busy inventing something else during the early '50s, not > helping invent the rock and roll sound.
I guess it depends on how one defines "roots." Charles had a huge influence on what rock & roll became, even if that influence came a few years later than Morgan's choices. I find Morgan's cutoff to be purely arbitrary. "I Got A Woman" is one of the most influential recordings of 1954, if not of all time; I see no reason to say it's not "among the strongest roots of rock & roll" because it wasn't released by 1953.
> > For someone claiming no intention to knock Ahmet Ertegun, it seems as > > if your post is designed explicitly to do just that.
> I knocked a few of the claims made by Moody and a few made by Weiner.
You nitpicked the man's obituaries---for giving him, his label, and/or his artists too much credit---while the ink on them was still fresh. Pardon me if I find that distasteful.
> I don't think number of different artists in a record company's top > sellers is relevant to whether the company has had a successful year.
It is relevant if you want to talk about the ability to continue to produce recordings, and the all-important ability to get paid for them. Distributors for indie labels were notorious for holding up payments to labels until "the next big hit" was already in the pipeline. For labels reliant on one or two star stars, the time lag could be fatal, especially if the follow up didn't sell as well as the first. Atlantic beat the system by aggressively developing a broader roster of artists capable of delivering hits. If a distributor wanted to get in on the ongoing business, he had to keep his Atlantic account more or less current.
>>Atlantic's records were distinctive, and brought a new level of >>recording quality and production to R&B.
> I agree about recording quality.
I certainly don't. Labels like Motown blew the doors of Atlantic's recording quality. The way I see it, it was Stax who was the driving force behind Atlantic, until they pulled out when Atlantic was sold to Warner. Current Stax releases sound superior than what I've heard from Atlantic, Rhino or Warner.
>>In that [1956] list, Atlantic has the most entries of any single record >>company.
> And zero entries above #13, in contrast to King, Imperial, Specialty, > Mercury, Gee, Sun, and Aladdin.
> It's also [in 1956] the only company not dependent on a single artist
>>for all its entries, save that King has one Bill Doggett record [at #1] in >>addition to its two Little Willie John hits [one of them at #4].
> I don't think number of different artists in a record company's top > sellers is relevant to whether the company has had a successful year.
> [...]
>>>>[...]In 1954, Atlantic released both "I Got a Woman" by Ray Charles >>>>and "Shake, Rattle and Roll" by Joe Turner. (Mr. Ertegun was a backup >>>>singer on "Shake, Rattle and Roll.") The songs had a good beat, and >>>>people danced to them.
>>>Which is also true of hit records Charles and Turner had before they >>>signed to Atlantic...
>>It's a little disingenuous to suggest that either artist was as >>successful prior to signing with Atlantic as they were afterwards, >>particularly in the case of Ray Charles.
> This is a straw man.
>>>>They were among the strongest roots of rock and roll.
>>>Nah, the strongest roots of rock and roll are various recordings of >>>1949-1953, many of which can be heard at
> Imo "I Got A Woman" isn't "among the strongest roots" of rock and roll.
> Big Joe Turner is listed at hoyhoy;
>>Ray Charles isn't, but should be.
> I disagree; I don't think Charles made any recordings during the > relevant period that meet Morgan's stylistic cutoffs. Charles was > basically busy inventing something else during the early '50s, not > helping invent the rock and roll sound.
> [...]
>>For someone claiming no intention to knock Ahmet Ertegun, it seems as >>if your post is designed explicitly to do just that.
> I knocked a few of the claims made by Moody and a few made by Weiner.
> > > Atlantic's records were distinctive, and brought a new level of > > > recording quality and production to R&B.
> > I agree about recording quality.
> I certainly don't. Labels like Motown blew the doors of Atlantic's > recording quality.
Motown was established a generation later, after the era to which we were referring. You have to compare Atlantic's recordings of the '50s with their contemporaries and immediate predecessors in the genre. Of course, you may still not agree that Atlantic raised the bar, but at least you'll be disagreeing based on a valid comparison.
> The way I see it, it was Stax who was the driving force behind Atlantic, > until they pulled out when Atlantic was sold to Warner.
For the relevant era, I generally agree, but, so what? Even if they used the Stax house band and studios, those records were still Atlantic records, frequently produced by Jerry Wexler. It's those records that can be fairly compared to Motown's; I love both, but I lean towards the Atlantic/Stax records (though not on the basis of sound quality in the purely technical sense.)
>> > > Atlantic's records were distinctive, and brought a new level of >> > > recording quality and production to R&B.
>> > I agree about recording quality.
>> I certainly don't. Labels like Motown blew the doors of Atlantic's >> recording quality.
> Motown was established a generation later, after the era to which we > were referring. You have to compare Atlantic's recordings of the '50s > with their contemporaries and immediate predecessors in the genre. Of > course, you may still not agree that Atlantic raised the bar, but at > least you'll be disagreeing based on a valid comparison.
Guess you know you're talking to a stump here. Uni is not known for making valid comparisons.
>>>>>Atlantic's records were distinctive, and brought a new level of >>>>>recording quality and production to R&B.
>>>>I agree about recording quality.
>>>I certainly don't. Labels like Motown blew the doors of Atlantic's >>>recording quality.
>>Motown was established a generation later, after the era to which we >>were referring. You have to compare Atlantic's recordings of the '50s >>with their contemporaries and immediate predecessors in the genre. Of >>course, you may still not agree that Atlantic raised the bar, but at >>least you'll be disagreeing based on a valid comparison.
> Guess you know you're talking to a stump here. Uni is not known for making > valid comparisons.
Bobby, I have only fond memories of you. Yeah, before I knew you! :-)
PStoller - we shall settle this Atlantic Records sound quality deal, once and for all, at a later date. Be prepared!
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