Pat Boone - HoF? II
Scarlotti
I'd just like to take the opportunity to let you know that I've been
danced around here in the past, know the tune, steps and score -- and,
merci beaucoup, I'm not dancing anymore.
As the "Pat Boone" thread has become bogged down with more two-steps,
side-steps, skips, jumps and missteps than Arthur Murray ever dealt
with (even when teaching dancing in a hurry), I've decided to waltz on
over to this one and start the dance anew.
Now then, my nimble partners, allow me to resume the lead:
For all your semantic nit-picking, disingenuousness, evasion,
misdirection, redirection and general obfuscation, you have made me
lose sight of the facts ... facts which you seem hell bent on
avoiding.
FACT #1: Pat Boone had charted r'n'r hits approximately 6 months prior
to Elvis.
FACT #2: Pat Boone was considered to be a r'n'r singer in 1955.
FACT #3: In terms of popularity, Pat Boone was second only to Elvis.
FACT #4: Joel Whitburn reports that Pat Boone is the 7th most
successful singles artist of all time.
FACT #5: Pat Boone's clean-cut image helped to legitimatize (and
popularize) r'n'r among a greater portion of mainstream audiences.
FACT #6: No matter how much anyone tries to make an issue out of
whether or not Bill Haley counts as a "singer," you cannot get around
the fact that Pat Boone was the first white solo-artist/singer/teen
idol of the r'n'r era.
CONCLUSION: Pat Boone should be in the R'n'R Hall of Fame.
If either of you feels that Pat Boone should not be inducted into the
HoF, then please address the above-listed FACTS and/or CONCLUSION.
For example:
1: Do you claim that Pat Boone didn't chart prior to Elvis?
2: Do you doubt that Pat Boone was considered to be a "r'n'r" singer
in 1955?
3: Do you deny that Pat Boone was second only to Elvis when it came to
charting songs in the late 50s?
4: Do you dispute Joel Whitburn's claim that Pat Boone is the 7th most
successful singles artist of all time?
5: Do you deny that Pat Boone's clean-cut image helped to bring r'n'r
to a wider audience?
6: Do you maintain that there should not be separate categories in the
r'n'r HoF for "male vocalist," "female vocalist," "group vocals,"
"band," "guitarist," "songwriter," etc.?
If you answered "yes" to any of the above questions, please state your
reasons for doing so.
If, otoh, you agree with all of the above, then please be so good as
to explain how you can possibly deny Pat Boone his rightful place in
the R'n'R HoF?
Tony Borgosano
"Scarlotti" <Scar...@searchhawkmail.com> wrote in message
news:4c6e579a.04031...@posting.google.com...
He will be blacklisted forever because of the cover records.
Tony Borgosano
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Kelaugh
>to explain how you can possibly deny Pat Boone his rightful place in
>the R'n'R HoF?
You have summoned every available FACT at your disposal to make your strongest
possible case, but even you do not attempt to claim that his music had any
lasting value. Case closed.
Keith
SHARX..
Says WHO?????
SHARX..
As if NOBODIES like Wynonie, Howling Wolf or Crudup had ANY measurable
value.
Scarlotti
You must've missed my All-Time Greatest List and my comments in the
previous Pat Boone thread.
I'm a big fan of Pat's music and the more of his music that I hear,
the more I appreciate him as one of my all-time favorite rock 'n'
rollers.
I've said it before, and I'll say it again -- Pat Boone rules!
pen...@earthlink.net
Considering that Presley choose to record their material says they had
some measurable value. Has any person of significance ever recorded
anything by Boone?
pen...@earthlink.net
<SH...@SHARXTANKSnospam.com> wrote:
>|| He will be blacklisted forever because of the cover records.
>||
>|| Tony Borgosano
>
>Says WHO?????
I don't know if he'll be blacklisted, but he'll never be voted in
SavoyBG
>Has any person of significance ever recorded
>anything by Boone?
Of course not, they all knew that his versions could not have been improved
upon.
I take that back, the Beatles did re-do his recording of "Long Tall Sally."
MY LISTS - http://hometown.aol.com/savoybg/myhomepage/index.html
SURVEYS - http://hometown.aol.com/savoybg1/myhomepage/index.html
Tregembo
"Kelaugh" <kel...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040315213150...@mb-m25.aol.com...
I agree that Pat's R & R hits have not stood the test of time compared to
many others, but if you use "lasting value" as the sole yardstick, many
other artists IN the R & R H of F would be tossed out.
Based on ALL of the criteria for being inducted into the H of F there is a
case to be made for Pat's inclusion.
How strong a case if, of course, an interesting discussion, as we've seen.
Ray Arthur
RealWildChild
wrote:
>
>"Kelaugh" <kel...@aol.com> wrote in message
>news:20040315213150...@mb-m25.aol.com...
>> >If, otoh, you agree with all of the above, then please be so good as
>> >to explain how you can possibly deny Pat Boone his rightful place in
>> >the R'n'R HoF?
>>
>> You have summoned every available FACT at your disposal to make your
>strongest
>> possible case, but even you do not attempt to claim that his music had any
>> lasting value. Case closed.
>>
>
>I agree that Pat's R & R hits have not stood the test of time compared to
>many others, but if you use "lasting value" as the sole yardstick, many
>other artists IN the R & R H of F would be tossed out.
Yes, I tend to think that too.
>
>Based on ALL of the criteria for being inducted into the H of F there is a
>case to be made for Pat's inclusion.
>
>How strong a case if, of course, an interesting discussion, as we've seen.
>
From the HoF site:
"One of the Foundation’s many functions is to recognize the
contributions of those who have had a significant impact on the
evolution, development and perpetuation of rock and roll by inducting
them into the Hall of Fame"
Evolution: A gradual process in which something changes into a
different form.
Development: Act of improving by aiding the growth of
Scarlotti FACT #5: Pat Boone's clean-cut image [significantly] helped
to legitimatize (and popularize) r'n'r among a greater portion of
mainstream audiences.
Perhaps we could say that Pat Boone's cover records accelerated the
expansion of (ie **developed*) the market for (appreciation of) rock
and roll (at least in in places like Bumfuck, ND :-)
From Jack G, 11/1/04
...in the small towns and more affluent suburbs - there the white
covers by Pat Boone (as well as by Gayle Storm and the Crew-Cuts) did
indeed get Rock & Roll played on many radio stations that would not
have played the originals - at least in the '55- '58 years."
with agreement from Bruce G, 11/1/04
...there were many stations back then that would never have played a
Little Richard record even if it was in the top 5 in the country.
and from (yourself) Ray Arthur, 11/1/04
[some kid] may or may not have heard of Little Richard in East
Bumfuck, ND, but he knows he likes this Tutti Frutti song by this
Boone guy and he wants to hear more like it...
...Maybe not for Tutti Frutti, but certainly there was a spill over
effect as (first) radio stations then the public BECAME AWARE [my
emphasis] that there was a lot more and better original R & R out
there to be listenened to and purchased.
But
Bruce G, 11/1/04 comes back with this counter argument:
"Rock and Roll was a snowball that was rolling down an endless hill,
and picking up steam all of its own, and none of those cover versions
[by Pat Boone for example] did a thing to help the cause..."
>
This my be true as regards the **evolution** of rock and roll music,
but its **development** in the mid 50's in terms of market acceptance
and growth (in countless conservative locations) may owe much to Pat
Boone (???).
Geoff
Scarlotti
> On Tue, 16 Mar 2004 05:27:08 GMT, "SHARX.."
> <SH...@SHARXTANKSnospam.com> wrote:
>
>
> >|| He will be blacklisted forever because of the cover records.
> >||
> >|| Tony Borgosano
> >
> >Says WHO?????
>
> I don't know if he'll be blacklisted, but he'll never be voted in
Sadly, I suspect that both the above statements are probably true. To
induct Pat Boone (a "cover artist") would be too politically
incorrect.
Of course:
1) The practice of making cover records is as old as the record
industry,
2) had nothing to do with "exploitation" or even "race," and
3) in Pat's case, helped to introduce r&r to a much wider audience.
And common sense would tell one that:
1) If there were anything "incorrect" about making cover records, the
fault would lie with the music industry -- not the artists (who often
had little-or-no-say in the matter).
But Pat Boone provides the industry with a convenient scapegoat.
All of which just goes to show that the r'n'r HoF is nothing more than
a high profile (and innately hypocritical) marketing tool of a
money-centered record industry that views artists and art as
disposable commodities.
Len Blanks
> ... the r'n'r HoF is nothing more than a high profile (and innately
> hypocritical) marketing tool of a money-centered record industry
> that views artists and art as disposable commodities.
Your posts are usually filled with contradictions, but here is a
tautology - nice change of pace. Did you get this from their web
site?
--
Len
Kittens: self-propelled barbed wire in a dewy-eyed mohair sweater.
-- Charlie Stross
Scarlotti
> Scarlotti <Scar...@searchhawkmail.com> writes:
>
> > ... the r'n'r HoF is nothing more than a high profile (and innately
> > hypocritical) marketing tool of a money-centered record industry
> > that views artists and art as disposable commodities.
>
> Your posts are usually filled with contradictions, but here is a
> tautology - nice change of pace. Did you get this from their web
> site?
No. Since when were professional hypocrites honest?
Scarlotti
>
> > ... the r'n'r HoF is nothing more than a high profile (and innately
> > hypocritical) marketing tool of a money-centered record industry
> > that views artists and art as disposable commodities.
>
> Your posts are usually filled with contradictions, but here is a
> tautology - nice change of pace. Did you get this from their web
> site?
Btw, Len:
I'm afraid that your expansive mastery of the English language (and
gosh, but we're all agape on this side of the Atlantic) falls a tad
short on the subtle changes in meaning that words undergo when placed
alongside of other words.
Now I readily concede that I'll never outdo you when it comes to
quoting chapter and verse of Strunk & White, but an industry needn't
be "money-centered" to "view artists and art as disposable
commodities." Nor is it written (er, metaphorically speaking --
though I'd be willing to bet a literal interpretation also applies)
that a "money-centered" industry need necessarily view art and artists
as "disposable."
But that the record industry _is_ a money-centered industry which
_does_ view its art and artists in this light is the non-tautological
point which my sentence clearly makes.
Verbal-retentiveness is a cruel and debilitating illness which has
proven lethal to far greater intellects than your own. Take heed, my
good man, before it's too late. I prescribe two colloquialisms, three
vernaculars and a heaping tablespoon of slang, twice daily -- but at
all costs avoid those damn ebonics (they're nothing but a placebo and
will probably require an oral washing).
Kelaugh
>I agree that Pat's R & R hits have not stood the test of time compared to
>many others, but if you use "lasting value" as the sole yardstick, many
>other artists IN the R & R H of F would be tossed out.
Agreed. There are many in the RRHOF that I would never include. But that is a
weak argument for Boone. Maybe a stronger case could be made based on the
argument that Boone took mediocrity to exceptional levels.
Keith
Scarlotti
That is your opinion, Keith.
But there are quite a few people who believe differently -- myself
included.
Pat Boone is the 7th biggest-selling r'n'r artist of all time.
Obviously a LOT of people would disagree with you regarding his
talent.
The facts (posted by myself, above) remain.
Pat Boone was the first white r'n'r singer, and the 2nd most popular
r'n'r singer of the decade. He not only deserves to be inducted into
the r'n'r hof, but he should have been among the first inductees.
His exclusion from the r'n'r hof is a denial of r'n'r's history.
Plain and simple.
Bobby
> Pat Boone is the 7th biggest-selling r'n'r artist of all time.
He may be the 7th biggest seller during the r'n'r era; however, even you
must realize that only a small portion of his recordings can even be
considered r'n'r, no matter how loosely you want to define that term. So,
in essence, your statement is a gross exaggeration.
Jim Colegrove
(Scarlotti) wrote:
More like first white pop-wannabe-r'n'r singer.
Jim Colegrove
Tregembo
"Jim Colegrove" <co...@thecoolgroove.com> wrote in message
news:tdgr50lfh6gl9a8de...@4ax.com...
> On 20 Mar 2004 20:27:08 -0800, Scar...@searchhawkmail.com
> (Scarlotti) wrote:
>
> >kel...@aol.com (Kelaugh) wrote in message
news:<20040320081139...@mb-m07.aol.com>...
> >> Ray Arthur said:
> >> >I agree that Pat's R & R hits have not stood the test of time compared
to
> >> >many others, but if you use "lasting value" as the sole yardstick,
many
> >> >other artists IN the R & R H of F would be tossed out.
> >>
> >> Agreed. There are many in the RRHOF that I would never include. But
that is a
> >> weak argument for Boone. Maybe a stronger case could be made based on
the
> >> argument that Boone took mediocrity to exceptional levels.
> >>
> >> Keith
Keith,
This was not an argument FORE Pat Boone but rather, an observation based on
the unilaterality (I think I just created a new word) of the previous post,
i.e. "lasting value."
> >
> >
> >That is your opinion, Keith.
> >
> >But there are quite a few people who believe differently -- myself
> >included.
> >
> >Pat Boone is the 7th biggest-selling r'n'r artist of all time.
> >Obviously a LOT of people would disagree with you regarding his
> >talent.
> >
> >The facts (posted by myself, above) remain.
> >
> >Pat Boone was the first white r'n'r singer, and the 2nd most popular
> >r'n'r singer of the decade. He not only deserves to be inducted into
> >the r'n'r hof, but he should have been among the first inductees.
>
> More like first white pop-wannabe-r'n'r singer.
> Jim Colegrove
Just for the record. I don't have a strong feeling one way or the other
about Pat Boone in the R & R HOF. More importantly, I don't believe
Scarlotti and I have ever agreed on anything. He and his cast of multiple
personality aliases have been in my kill file since shortly after he/they
arrived. So I have nothing to do with any Scarlotti/Arthur "cut & paste"
posts.
Ray Arthur
Kelaugh
>Keith,
>
>This was not an argument FORE Pat Boone but rather, an observation based on
>the unilaterality (I think I just created a new word) of the previous post,
>i.e. "lasting value."
Ray added:
>Just for the record. I don't have a strong feeling one way or the other
>about Pat Boone in the R & R HOF. More importantly, I don't believe
>Scarlotti and I have ever agreed on anything. He and his cast of multiple
>personality aliases have been in my kill file since shortly after he/they
>arrived. So I have nothing to do with any Scarlotti/Arthur "cut & paste"
>posts.
>
>Ray Arthur
Ray, I think we are in agreement on the "lasting value" of both Mr. Boone's
music and Mr. Scarlotti's posts.
Keith
Scarlotti
Other R'n'R HoF inductees like Elvis Presley and Bobby Darin also
quickly abandoned r'n'r for more traditional styles, so there is no
reason to deny Pat Boone recognition for doing likewise.
Based on the track lists of his complete 50s box set, the majority of
his early recordings are r'n'r -- and r'n'r at a crucial time in that
genre's development.
And IMHO his r'n'r songs rock.
There is ample reason for inducting Pat Boone into the HoF. The real
question is why this induction is being denied him -- and how
supporters of his denial can possibly justify doing so.
Because he made "covers?" So did everyone and their brother from the
record industry's inception. So did other inductees like Elvis.
Because his image is too clean-cut (read "square")? If otoh the HoF
is viewed (in its true light) as a marketing gimmick that feels
honoring a clean-cut rock 'n' roller would be detrimental to its
already diminishing sales, then they've got a point. A lousy one --
but, technically, a point.
Because his singing style sounds "square" compared to the vocal
shenanigans of Little Richard's originals? The HoF isn't (at least
not officially) about image.
Because his r'n'r recordings are deemed to have "no lasting impact"
(largely because the p.c. d.j.s refuse to play them? Even if his
r'n'r music is currently shunned on the airwaves, its original impact
is undeniable. He brought the r'n'r sound to a far wider audience
than would have heard it without him. Pardon the paraphrase, but if
Pat Boone didn't exist, the r'n'r industry would have had to create
him.
So I'm interested in hearing your p.o.v., Bobby. On what grounds
would you justify Pat Boone's exclusion from the HoF?
To date, your only expressed reason is that his records are "s__t," --
which is a personal judgement call, and certainly not a valid reason
(as many people like Pat Boone's records, and as many "s__tty" songs
and artists have already been honored with inclusion).
BBE
>
>
>
> Jim Colegrove
As much as appreciate the bulk of Scarlotti's posts, I have to
disagree-strongly-with his contention that Pat Boone was a rock and
roll singer. At best, he was what Jim Colegrove says above. And I'm
not even convinced that Boone's first-and-foremost professed mission
in life was to be an entertainer. I think he was into being a kind of
spokesman for "good, clean living", almost, literally, a missionary.
Read "Twixt Twelve and Twenty" sometime (if you can stand the utter
drivel therein).
BBE
Roger Ford
I think,according to the sometimes strange way America defines rock
'n' roll that he was generally percieved over there as a rock 'n' roll
singer in the 50's.
That being the case tho I detest most of his records personally I
would accept that the #2 best selling rock 'n' roll artist of the
1950's certainly has a good case for being in any credible HOF
ROGER FORD
-----------------------
"Spam Free Zone" - to combat unwanted automatic spamming I have added
an extra "b" in my e-mail address (mari...@bblueyonder.co.uk).
Please delete same before responding.Thank you!
Bobby
> To date, your only expressed reason is that his records are "s__t," --
> which is a personal judgement call, and certainly not a valid reason
> (as many people like Pat Boone's records, and as many "s__tty" songs
> and artists have already been honored with inclusion).
I did not not say that I personally think ALL of Boone's records are "shit";
I personally like a few of Boone's recordings . I was interpreting a phrase
in an interview (which you posted) in which Boone said: "Admittedly, my
records were vanilla compared to the originals." If you are the writer that
you claim to be, you shoul know Pat Boone wasn't talking about vanilla ice
cream, about which you went on at some length in your original reply. He
was saying that compared to the originals, his versions were bland,
flavorless, ordinary, plain, etc; I prefer to use the vernacular "shit".
I don't consider Boone a rock and roller and neither does Boone, himself.
In the interview you posted, he states "I was a midwife for rock and roll.
For better or worse." This statement is rather forthright, but if you need
an explanation, let me know.
In summation, Boone states:
(1) He wasn't a rock & roller.
(2) His covers were "vanilla" but were acceptable to pop radio.
If Boone has gone on record with these facts, why can't you accept them?
Mark Dintenfass
<mari...@bblueyonder.co.uk> wrote:
> I think,according to the sometimes strange way America defines rock
> 'n' roll that he was generally percieved over there as a rock 'n' roll
> singer in the 50's.
Not in my neighborhood. For us was a pop singer who sang pop versions
of r'n'r and r&b. Only people who hated r'n'r liked him. I will concede
that in some more backward parts of the country, where he was the only
kind of r'n'r singer they had heard, he may have been thought of as an
r'n'r singer--but then so was Tommy Sands in that world.
--
--md
_________
Remove xx's from address to reply
Scarlotti
In keeping with the religious elements of the topic (raised below), I
think a variant on the popular WWJD? (What Would Jesus Do?) theorem is
fitting. In this case WWPBS? (What Would Pat Boone Say?):
> As much as appreciate the bulk of Scarlotti's posts, I have to
> disagree-strongly-with his contention that Pat Boone was a rock and
> roll singer.
PB: I was a midwife for rock and roll. For better or worse.
SCARLOTTI: I don't think it's so much an issue of whether you or I
consider Pat's music to be r'n'r, as it is:
1) whether he was considered "r'n'r" in his day and
2) whether his career had historical and/or musical significance.
JOHN W. WHITEHEAD (interviewing PB): There are some who believe that
Pat Boone legitimized rock and roll in the eyes of the white middle
class.
PB: I don't think there's any question about it. For folks who didn't
live through the era and were too young to really grasp all the
context of what was happening, it was a turbulent time. It was a very
controversial time. I was in the middle of the controversy, as was
Elvis. Fortunately for me, I had a six-month head start on him. My
first record came out in March of 1955. My second one, "Ain't That A
Shame," which went right to number one came out, I believe, in August
or September that same year. Elvis' "Heartbreak Hotel" came out in the
fall of 1955. Thus, I had virtually a six-month head start which, of
course, meant that as his phenomenon erupted–it was sort of like an
eruption out of the earth–I happened to be sitting on top of it. So I
rode the crest. I was the opposite of Elvis. As you said, he was the
rebel. He was the guy the parents and preachers and teachers were all
getting upset about because he was a single guy wiggling his hips and
snarling and mumbling. There was obviously something very erotic about
what he did. Meanwhile, I was having hit after hit and was going to
college and was married and having kids and going to church. I was the
guy playing by all the rules and winning. Elvis was the guy breaking
the rules and winning as well. We both appealed to a lot of the same
fans but for different reasons. He was pepper, and I was salt.
PB: The funny thing is that a lot of people in the early days thought
I was a Black artist. I would go into radio stations in the first few
months of my career and be introduced by a promotion guy to DJs. He
would say, "This is Pat Boone. He's got that big record "Ain't That A
Shame." But they wouldn't believe it. I would have to show them my
bracelet or something because they were expecting a Black guy. Also,
as vanilla as my records may sound today, you make the wrong
comparison if you compare them to Little Richard or Fats. You need to
compare my records to Eddie Fisher, Perry Como and Patti Page and
other records that were happening at that time. Suddenly mine sound
raw and loud and pretty arresting compared to "How Much Is That Doggie
In the Window?"
PB: During the time I was recording Little Richard's, Fats Domino's
and Ivory Joe Hunter's songs, they were hits in the R&B field which,
by the way, was its own musical ghetto. They had their own R&B
stations and charts, and their music did not get played in general
society. It was totally ignored and looked down on by pop radio.
However, in the mid-'50s when several artists, of which I was one,
began to record cleaned-up pop versions of some of those R&B songs and
had hits with them, it attracted attention to the Black artists and
their original songs. For instance, "Ain't That A Shame" was a number
one R&B hit by Fats Domino, but it wasn't getting any air play across
the country. It wasn't going to be a hit in the pop world. However,
when I recorded my version, it went right to number one. My version
also went to number four on the same R&B chart where Fats had been
number one. Thus, I was suddenly an accepted R&B artist. In fact, I
had nine records on the R&B charts during that period. I was
considered an R&B artist by the same R&B DJs and record buyers that
liked Little Richard and Fats Domino. I was introducing their music
and them to this vast pop audience that previously knew nothing about
them. The proof is that there were countless R&B hits during that time
that nobody covered or did pop versions of, and nobody knows them
today. The only ones anybody knows from that era are the songs that
were covered not only by white artists but by other pop artists such
as Nat Cole, Ella Fitzgerald and the Mills Brothers. It wasn't a
Black/White thing. It was a musical-found thing. The original R&B was
just too ethnic, too raw sounding and too unpolished to get on pop
radio until some of us made it acceptable. Then Alan Freed refused to
play any but the original records–no covers–and pretty soon the cover
record era was gone. However, it was a necessary transition period.
Scarlotti: Conclusions
1) he was considered to be a r'n'r artist,
2) he is thought to have legitimatized r'n'r for a mainstream
audience,
3) he helped r'n'r artists he covered to gain airplay and overall
acceptance.
> At best, he was what Jim Colegrove says above. And I'm
> not even convinced that Boone's first-and-foremost professed mission
> in life was to be an entertainer.
PB: Of course. My only regret is that my film career didn't go
further. My role model and semi-idol Bing Crosby was still acting and
recording into his early seventies. Although I haven't been seriously
considered for any kind of acting award, I think I'm capable of that
if the right role comes along. So if it does, great; if not, I am
immensely happy. In fact, I am totally amazed at what happened to a
kid from Nashville with no particular training. It was just a love of
music and sort of dreams and even surreptitious prayers that I might
have a shot at singing for people.
SCARLOTTI: He strikes me as more of an entertainer than a missionary.
From his tv show, to his motion pictures, to his promoting The
Phantom, to his selling Beatles prints, to his dressing up like a
biker to promote his heavy metal album, to his deejaying, to his
starting a record company to produce new albums by classic artists who
can no longer get backing from the major labels -- he's one of the
most well-rounded showmen in the business.
> I think he was into being a kind of
> spokesman for "good, clean living", almost, literally, a missionary.
PB: I came across Jesus' statement "If any man"–I knew that meant boy,
girl, woman, anybody–"confesses me before men his peers, I will
confess him before my Father" and "If he denies me, I will have to
deny him before my Father in Heaven." It was then that I realized that
the confession of faith, baptism and claiming Christ was the most
important thing I would ever do in my existence. So I walked down the
aisle. I was 13 when I confessed my faith and was baptized. Something
happened inside me, and I knew that I was different. But I have to be
honest. I haven't always been what I would call a good Christian. But
I've tried and I've known that I was a child of God and that he might
discipline me. He might be disappointed in me, but he wouldn't disown
me.
SCARLOTTI: Well, for a Christian, being a "missionary" is almost a
given. But I think that Pat could have become, very literally, a
missionary at the height of his fame had such been his true desire.
Based on the above quotation, I'd say that being a Christian was
important to him, but as he also notes, his halo has been subject to a
fair amount of slippage.
> Read "Twixt Twelve and Twenty" sometime (if you can stand the utter
> drivel therein).
I probably will. I've always found Pat's comments extremely
interesting and enjoyable to read (and/or listen to). He's
intelligent, literate and not afraid to speak his mind (and/or stir up
a little controversy).