VOCAL GROUPS BATTLE : Round 1 - Part 2 : RESULTS!!

[Roger Ford]

Here are the voting results in Round One - Part Two of the Vocal
Groups Battle. 20 people voted. There were FOUR draws :-

>17 The Heartbeats -- A Thousand Miles Away -- Hull 720 -- 1956
> 2 The Jesters -- Sally Green -- Winley 242 -- 1960

WINNER : HEARTBEATS

> 5 The Five Royales -- Women About To Make Me Go Crazy -- King 4819 -- 1955
>15 The Drifters -- This Magic Moment -- Atlantic 2050 -- 1960

WINNER : DRIFTERS

>18 The Chords -- Sh-Boom -- Cat 104 -- 1954
> 1 The Robins -- If It's So Baby -- Savoy 726 -- 1949

WINNER : CHORDS

>13 The Flares -- Foot Stomping -- Felsted 8624 -- 1961
> 4 The Moonglows -- Whistle My Love -- Chance 1147 -- 1953

WINNER : FLARES

>12 The Dominoes -- Do Something For Me -- Federal 12001 -- 1950
> 4 The Baltineers -- Moments Like This -- Teenage 1000 -- 1956

WINNER : DOMINOES

> 8 The Swallows -- Roll,Roll Pretty Baby -- King 4515 -- 1951
> 9 The Pips -- Every Beat Of My Heart -- Huntom 2510 -- 1961

WINNER : PIPS

> 8 The Duprees -- You Belong To Me -- Coed 569 -- 1962
>12 The Toppers -- (I Love To Play Your Piano) Let Me Bang Your Box -- Jubilee 5136 -- 1954

WINNER : TOPPERS

>14 The Five Royales -- Baby Don't Do It -- Apollo 443 -- 1952
> 3 Bobby Nunn & The Robbins -- That's What The Good Book Says -- Modern 807 -- 1951

WINNER : 5 ROYALES

> 0 The Pilgrim Travelers -- Gospel Boogie -- Specialty 306 -- 1948
>18 The Platters -- The Great Pretender -- Mercury 70753 -- 1955

WINNER : PLATTERS

>12 The Olympics -- Western Movies -- Demon 1508 -- 1958
> 7 Don Julian & The Meadowlarks -- Heaven And Paradise -- Dootone 359 -- 1955

WINNER : OLYMPICS

>18 The Drifters -- Honey Love -- Atlantic 1029 -- 1954
> 2 The Exciters -- He's Got The Power -- United Artists 572 -- 1963

WINNER : DRIFTERS

> 1 The Cardinals -- I'll Always Love You -- Atlantic 952 -- 1951
>17 The Dells -- Oh What A Nite -- Vee Jay 204 -- 1956

WINNER : DELLS

>11 Dion & The Belmonts -- A Teenager In Love -- Laurie 3027 -- 1959
> 7 The Velvets -- Tonight (Could Be The Night) -- Monument 441 -- 1961

WINNER : DION/BELMONTS

> 0 The Robins -- You're Fine But Not My Kind -- Savoy 762 -- 1950
>19 The Dominoes -- Have Mercy Baby -- Federal 12068 -- 1952

WINNER : DOMINOES

> 3 The Ravens -- Count Every Star -- National 9111 -- 1950
>15 The Impressions -- It's All Right -- ABC Paramount 10487 -- 1963

WINNER : IMPRESSIONS

> 9 The Five Keys -- Close Your Eyes -- Capitol 3032 -- 1955
>10 The Imperials -- Tears On My Pillow -- End 1027 -- 1958

WINNER : IMPERIALS

> 2 The Weavers -- Goodnight Irene -- Decca 27077 -- 1950
>18 The Capris -- There's A Moon Out Tonight -- Planet 1010 -- 1958

WINNER : CAPRIS

>14 The Coasters -- Charlie Brown -- Atco 6132 -- 1959
> 5 The Swallows -- Dearest -- King 4458 -- 1951

WINNER : COASTERS

>19 The Clovers -- Love Potion No 9 -- United Artists 180 -- 1959
> 0 The Shadows -- I've Been A Fool -- Lee 200 -- 1949

WINNER : CLOVERS

> 9 Clyde McPhatter -- Try Try Baby -- Atlantic 2028 -- 1959
>11 The Elegants -- Little Star -- Apt 25005 -- 1958

WINNER : ELEGANTS

> 8 The Drifters -- I'll Take You Home -- Atlantic 2201 -- 1963
>11 The Cadets -- Stranded In The Jungle -- Modern 994 -- 1956

WINNER : CADETS

> 8 The Five Scamps -- Red Hot -- Columbia 30158 -- 1949
>10 The Four Seasons -- Sherry -- Vee Jay 456 -- 1962

WINNER : 4 SEASONS

>13 The Dreamlovers -- When We Get Married -- Heritage 102 -- 1961
> 6 The Shirelles -- Foolish Little Girl -- Scepter 1248 -- 1963

WINNER : DREAMLOVERS

>12 The Cadillacs -- Down The Road -- Josie 778 -- 1955
> 4 The Soul Stirrers -- Feel Like My Time Ain't Long -- Specialty 360 -- 1950

WINNER : CADILLACS

> 8 The Lamplighters -- I Used To Cry Mercy Mercy -- Federal 12176 -- 1954
>10 The Edsels -- Lama Rama Ding Dong -- Dub International 2843 -- 1958

WINNER : EDSELS

> 5 The Big Three Trio -- You Sure Look Good To Me -- Bullet 275 -- 1947
>15 The Jaynetts -- Sally Go Round The Roses -- Tuff 369 -- 1963

WINNER : JAYNETTS

> 6 Vito & The Salutations -- Unchained Melody -- Herald 583 -- 1963
>11 The Four Jacks -- Last Of The Good Rockin' Men -- Federal 12087 -- 1952

WINNER ; 4 JACKS

> 7 The Clovers -- The Feeling Is So Good -- Atlantic 1010 -- 1953
> 7 Little Esther & The Robins -- Double Crossing Blues -- Savoy 731 -- 1950

Draw #1 and it resolves as follows (based on positions from results in
the yearly Singles Battles as per Rick's rankings on the website
history page)

Year Position
Clovers 1953 118
Esther/Robins 1950 49

Therefore....

WINNER : ESTHER/ROBINS

>13 The Five Royales -- Take All Of Me -- Apollo 443 -- 1952
> 6 The Fleetwoods -- Mister Blue -- Dolton 5 -- 1959

WINNER ; 5 ROYALES

> 7 The Flamingos -- You Ain't Ready -- Chance 1149 -- 1954
>11 The Royals -- Get It -- Federal 12133 -- 1953

WINNER : ROYALS

>15 The Regents -- Barbara Ann -- Cousins 1002 -- 1961
> 5 The Platters -- I'm Sorry -- Mercury 71032 -- 1957

WINNER : REGENTS

>13 The Midnighters -- Open Up The Back Door -- Federal 12260 -- 1956
> 5 The Drifters -- Suddenly There's A Valley -- Atlantic 2087 -- 1960

WINNER : MIDNIGHTERS

>14 Frankie Lymon & Teenagers -- I Promise To Remember -- Gee 1018 -- 1956
> 4 The Orioles -- Deacon Jones -- Jubilee 5005 -- 1949

WINNER : LYMON/TEENAGERS

> 4 The Shirelles -- Soldier Boy -- Scepter 1228 -- 1962
>15 The Penguins -- Hey Senorita -- Dootone 348 -- 1954

WINNER : PENGUINS

> 1 The Ravens -- Someday -- National 9089 -- 1949
>17 The Coasters -- Young Blood -- Atco 6087 -- 1957

WINNER : COASTERS

> 5 Bobby Mitchell & The Toppers -- Rack 'Em Back -- Imperial 5236 -- 1953
>14 The Danleers -- One Summer Night -- Amp-3 1005 -- 1958

WINNER : DANLEERS

> 6 The Larks -- Stolen Love -- Apollo 1109 -- 1952
>12 Rochell & The Candles -- Once Upon A Time -- Swingin' 623 -- 1960

WINNER : ROCHELL/CANDLES

>11 The Chiffons -- One Fine Day -- Laurie 3179 -- 1963
> 9 The Jarmels -- A Little Bit Of Soap -- Laurie 3098 -- 1961

WINNER : CHIFFONS

> 5 The Harptones -- Since I Fell For You -- Bruce 113 -- 1954
>10 The Five Royales -- Crazy Crazy Crazy -- Apollo 446 -- 1953

WINNER ; 5 ROYALES

> 5 The Chimes -- Once In A While -- Tag 444 -- 1960
>12 The Spiders -- I Didn't Want To Do It -- Imperial 5265 -- 1953

WINNER : SPIDERS

> 1 The Robins -- I'm Through -- Savoy 762 -- 1950
>18 The Skyliners -- Since I Don't Have You -- Calico 103 -- 1958

WINNER : SKYLINERS

>10 The Drifters -- Bip Bam -- Atlantic 1043 -- 1954
> 6 The Swallows -- Bicycle Tillie -- King 4632 -- 1953

WINNER : DRIFTERS

> 8 The Fascinators -- Oh Rose Marie -- Capitol 4247 -- 1959
> 8 The Ravens -- Get Wise Baby -- National 9098 -- 1949

Draw # 2....

Year Position
Fascinators 1959 56
Ravens 1949 50

WINNER ; RAVENS

>15 The Videos -- Trickle Trickle -- Casino 102 -- 1958
> 3 Al Sears & The Sparrows -- Brown Boy -- Coral 65023 -- 1950

WINNER ; VIDEOS

> 3 Bob B. Soxx & The Blue Jeans -- Why Do Lovers Break Each Others Hearts -- Philles 110 -- 1963
>17 The Silhouettes -- Get A Job -- Junior 391 -- 1957

WINNER : SILHOUETTES

>10 Hank Ballard & The Midnighters -- Nothing But Good -- King 5535 -- 1961
> 7 Little Joe & Thrillers -- Peanuts -- Okeh 7088 -- 1957

WINNER ; BALLARD/MIDNIGHTERS

> 3 The Nutmegs -- A Dream Of Love -- Tel 1014 -- 1960
>14 The Diamonds -- Little Darlin' -- Mercury 71060 -- 1957

WINNER : DIAMONDS

> 7 The Clovers -- Lovey Dovey -- Atlantic 1022 -- 1954
>13 The Miracles -- Shop Around -- Tamla 54034 -- 1960

WINNER : MIRACLES

>15 The Shirelles -- Tonight's The Night -- Scepter 1208 -- 1960
> 5 The Ravens -- Write Me A Letter -- National 9038 -- 1947

WINNER : SHIRELLES

> 9 The Essex -- Easier Said Than Done -- Roulette 4494 -- 1963
>11 The Spaniels -- Baby It's You -- Vee Jay 101 -- 1953

WINNER : SPANIELS

>18 Dion & The Belmonts -- I Wonder Why -- Laurie 3013 -- 1958
> 2 Dinah Washington & The Ravens -- Out In The Cold Again -- Mercury 8257 -- 1951

WINNER : DION/BELMONTS

> 4 The Desires -- Let It Please Be You -- Hull 730 -- 1959
>14 Nolan Strong -- Mind Over Matter -- Fortune 546 -- 1962

WINNER : STRONG (DIABLOS)

> 1 The Orioles -- O Holy Night -- Jubilee 5045 -- 1950
>19 The Dell-Vikings -- Come Go With Me -- Fee Bee 205 -- 1956

WINNER : DELL-VIKINGS

>13 The Five Keys -- Glory Of Love -- Aladdin 3099 -- 1951
> 3 The Dreamlovers -- If I Should Lose You -- Down 2004 -- 1961

WINNER ; 5 KEYS

>10 The Crystals -- Then He Kissed Me -- Philles 115 -- 1963
> 9 The Drifters -- Drip Drop -- Atlantic 1187 -- 1958

WINNER : CRYSTALS

> 3 The Mills Brothers -- Gloria -- Decca 24509 -- 1948
>16 The Bobbettes -- Mr Lee -- Atlantic 1144 -- 1957

WINNER : BOBBETTES

>12 The Crests -- My Juanita -- Joyce 103 -- 1957
> 5 The Trumpeteers -- Milky White Way -- Score 5001 -- 1948

WINNER : CRESTS

> 3 The Midnighters -- Annie's Aunt Fannie -- Federal 12200 -- 1954
>16 The Showmen -- It Will Stand -- Minit 632 -- 1961

WINNER : SHOWMEN

>11 The Diablos -- The Way You Dog Me Around -- Fortune 518 -- 1955
> 6 The Dominoes -- Chicken Blues -- Federal 12001 -- 1950

WINNER : DIABLOS

> 2 Lil Greenwood & The Four Jacks -- Grandpa Can Boogie Too -- Federal 12093 -- 1952
>15 The Cleftones -- You Baby You -- Gee 1000 -- 1955

WINNER : CLEFTONES

> 8 The Four Seasons -- Big Girls Don't Cry -- Vee Jay 465 -- 1962
> 8 The Orioles -- Barbara Lee -- Natural 5000 -- 1948

#3 of them draws.......

Year Position
4 Seasons 1962 21
Orioles 1948 26

WINNER ; 4 SEASONS

>17 Jerry Butler & The Impressions -- For Your Precious Love -- Vee Jay 280 -- 1958
> 3 The Coasters -- I'm A Hog For You -- Atco 6146 -- 1959

WINNER ; BUTLER/IMPRESSIONS

> 8 The Larks -- Eyesight To The Blind -- Apollo 427 -- 1951
> 9 The Carnations -- Long Tall Girl -- Lescay 3002 -- 1961

WINNER : CARNATIONS

>14 The Rivingtons -- Deep Water -- Liberty 55427 -- 1962
> 3 Cathy Jean & The Roomates -- Please Love Me Forever -- Valmor 007 -- 1960

WINNER : RIVINGTONS

> 2 The Checkers -- I Wasn't Thinking I Was Drinking -- King 4751 -- 1954
>18 The Isley Brothers -- Twist And Shout -- Wand 124 -- 1962

WINNER : ISLEY BROS

> 3 The Five Discs -- I Remember -- Emge 1004 -- 1958
>13 The Jewels -- Hearts Of Stone -- R & B 1301 -- 1954

WINNER : JEWELS

>10 The Drifters -- Please Stay -- Atlantic 2105 -- 1961
> 9 The Heartbeats -- Crazy For You -- Hull 711 -- 1955

WINNER : DRIFTERS

> 9 The Clovers -- Fool, Fool, Fool -- Atlantic 944 -- 1951
>10 The Coasters -- Shoppin' For Clothes -- Atco 6178 -- 1960

WINNER : COASTERS

> 2 The Five Keys -- Serve Another Round -- Aladdin 3158 -- 1952
>17 The Fiestas -- So Fine -- Old Town 1062 -- 1958

WINNER : FIESTAS

>13 The Robins -- Framed -- Spark 107 -- 1954
> 4 The Shirelles -- Boys -- Scepter 1211 -- 1960

WINNER : ROBINS

>12 Frankie Lymon & Teenagers -- I Want You To Be My Girl -- Gee 1012 -- 1956
> 6 The Dominoes -- Harbor Lights -- Federal 12010 -- 1951

WINNER : LYMON/TEENAGERS

>11 The Cardinals -- The Door Is Still Open -- Atlantic 1054 -- 1955
> 8 The Crystals -- He's Sure The Boy I Love -- Philles 109 -- 1962

WINNER : CARDINALS

> 7 The Checkers -- You Never Had It So Good -- King 4673 -- 1953
> 9 The Charts -- Deserie -- Everlast 5001 -- 1957

WINNER : CHARTS

> 1 The Five Royales -- Give Me One More Chance -- Apollo 434 -- 1951
>19 Hank Ballard & The Midnighters -- Let's Go,Let's Go,Let's Go -- King 5400 -- 1960

WINNER : BALLARD/MIDNIGHTERS

> 6 The Swallows -- Eternally -- King 4501 -- 1951
>11 The Valentines -- Lily Maebelle -- Rama 171 -- 1955

WINNER : VALENTINES

> 6 The Avalons -- Heart's Desire -- Unart 2007 -- 1958
>11 The Clovers -- Middle Of The Night -- Atlantic 963 -- 1952

WINNER : CLOVERS

> 7 The Exciters -- Tell Him -- United Artists 544 -- 1962
>13 The Four Deuces -- W-P-L-J -- Music City 790 -- 1955

WINNER : 4 DEUCES

> 4 Billy Ward & His Dominoes -- Pedal Pushin' Papa -- Federal 12114 -- 1952
>16 The Ronettes -- Be My Baby -- Philles 116 -- 1963

WINNER : RONETTES

>11 The Shields -- You Cheated -- Tender 513 -- 1958
> 7 The Robins -- If Teardrops Were Kisses -- Spark 110 -- 1955

WINNER : SHIELDS

> 7 The Orioles -- I Need You So -- Jubilee 5037 -- 1950
>11 The G-Clefs -- Ka Ding Dong -- Pilgrim 715 -- 1956

WINNER ; G-CLEFS

>12 The Stereos -- I Really Love You -- Cub 9095 -- 1961
> 6 The Shirelles -- Don't Say Goodnight And Mean Goodbye -- Scepter 1255 -- 1963

WINNER : STEREOS

> 8 The Drifters -- Sweets For My Sweet -- Atlantic 2117 -- 1961
>12 The Platters -- Twilight Time -- Mercury 71289 -- 1958

WINNER : PLATTERS

> 6 The Dominoes -- That's What You're Doing To Me -- Federal 12059 -- 1952
>13 The Miracles -- You've Really Got A Hold On Me -- Tamla 54073 -- 1962

WINNER : MIRACLES

> 8 The Royals -- All Night Long -- Federal 12064 -- 1952
> 6 The Clovers -- Yes It's You -- Atlantic 989 -- 1953

WINNER : ROYALS

>11 The Larks -- My Reverie -- Apollo 1184 -- 1951
> 8 The Coasters -- Idol With The Golden Head -- Atco 6098 -- 1957

WINNER : LARKS

>15 The Flamingos -- Lovers Never Say Goodbye -- End 1035 -- 1958
> 5 The Moonglows -- When I'm With You -- Chess 1629 -- 1956

WINNER : FLAMINGOS

> 4 The Swallows -- Will You Be Mine -- King 4458 -- 1951
>14 The Marcels -- Blue Moon -- Colpix 186 -- 1961

WINNER : MARCELS

>13 The Hearts -- Lonely Nights -- Baton 208 -- 1955
> 4 Bobby Hall & The Kings -- Why Oh Why -- Jax 314 -- 1953

WINNER : HEARTS

> 3 The Cardinals -- Come Back My Love -- Atlantic 1067 -- 1955
>16 The Dominoes -- Sixty Minute Man -- Federal 12022 -- 1951

WINNER : DOMINOES

> 3 The Robins -- Turkey Hop -- Savoy 732 -- 1950
>15 The Magnificents -- Up On The Mountain -- Vee Jay 183 -- 1956

WINNER : MAGNIFICENTS

>12 The Drifters -- When My Little Girl Is Smiling -- Atlantic 2134 -- 1962
> 6 The Mello Moods -- Where Are You (Now That I Need You) -- Robin 105 -- 1951

WINNER : DRIFTERS

>11 The Five Keys -- Red Sails In The Sunset -- Aladdin 3127 -- 1952
> 5 The Classics -- Till Then -- Music Note 1116 -- 1963

WINNER : 5 KEYS

> 9 The El Dorados -- I'll Be Forever Loving You -- Vee Jay 165 -- 1955
> 9 The Temptations -- I Want A Love I Can See -- Gordy 7015 -- 1963

Last draw..........

Year Position
El Dorados 1955 56
Temptations 1963 140

WINNER :: EL DORADOS

>19 Shep & The Limelites -- Daddy's Home -- Hull 740 -- 1961
> 0 The Sha-Weez -- No One To Love Me -- Aladdin 3170 -- 1952

WINNER : SHEP/LIMELITES

>18 The Midnighters -- Annie Had A Baby -- Federal 12195 -- 1954
> 1 The Clovers -- I Played The Fool -- Atlantic 977 -- 1952

WINNER : MIDNIGHTERS

>12 The Flamingos -- If I Can't Have You -- Chance 1133 -- 1953
> 3 The Larks -- In My Lonely Room -- Apollo 1190 -- 1952

WINNER : FLAMINGOS

> 7 Little Esther & The Dominoes -- The Deacon Moves In -- Federal 12016 -- 1951
>10 The Coasters -- Little Egypt -- Atco 6192 -- 1961

WINNER : COASTERS

>14 The Shells -- Baby Oh Baby -- Johnson 104 -- 1957
> 3 The Gaylords -- Tell Me You're Mine -- Mercury 70067 -- 1952

WINNER : SHELLS

> 7 Randy & The Rainbows -- Denise -- Rust 5059 -- 1963
>12 The Spaniels -- You Gave Me Peace Of Mind -- Vee Jay 229 -- 1956

WINNER : SPANIELS

> 3 The Moonglows -- I Just Can't Tell No Lie -- Champagne 7500 -- 1952
>15 The Coasters -- Down In Mexico -- Atco 6064 -- 1956

WINNER : COASTERS

>18 The Orioles -- It's Too Soon To Know -- Natural 5000 -- 1948
> 0 The Mills Brothers -- Daddy's Little Girl -- Decca 24872 -- 1950

WINNER : ORIOLES

> 5 The Four Seasons -- Walk Like A Man -- Vee Jay 485 -- 1963
>14 The Crows -- Gee -- Rama 5 -- 1953

WINNER : CROWS

> 9 The Clovers -- Don't You Know I Love You -- Atlantic 934 -- 1951
> 6 The Swallows -- Please, Baby, Please -- King 4579 -- 1952

WINNER : CLOVERS

>12 Hank Ballard & The Midnighters -- The Twist -- King 5171 -- 1958
> 8 The Danderliers -- Chop Chop Boom -- States 147 -- 1955

WINNER : BALLARD/MIDNIGHTERS

> 6 The Drifters -- The Way I Feel -- Atlantic 1006 -- 1953
>11 The Rays -- Silhouettes -- XYZ 102 -- 1957

WINNER : RAYS

> 2 Dion & The Belmonts -- No One Knows -- Laurie 3015 -- 1958
>16 The Cleftones -- Little Girl Of Mine -- Gee 1011 -- 1956

WINNER : CLEFTONES

> 4 The Swallows -- Tell Me Why -- King 4515 -- 1951
>14 The Shirelles -- I Met Him On A Sunday -- Tiara 6112 -- 1958

WINNER : SHIRELLES

> 4 The Pilgrim Travelers -- I'll Be Home For Christmas -- Specialty 837 -- 1952
>13 The Diablos -- The Wind -- Fortune 511 -- 1954

WINNER : DIABLOS

>18 The Moonglows -- Sincerely -- Chess 1581 -- 1954
> 0 The Checkers -- Night's Curtains -- King 4581 -- 1952

WINNER : MOONGLOWS

>12 The Mello-Kings -- Tonite Tonite -- Herald 502 -- 1957
> 6 The Clovers -- Here Goes A Fool -- Atlantic 1000 -- 1953

WINNER : MELLO-KINGS

> 4 The Royals -- Moonrise -- Federal 12088 -- 1952
>16 The Ronettes -- Baby I Love You -- Philles 118 -- 1963

WINNER : RONETTES

> 8 The Platters -- Only You -- Mercury 70633 -- 1955
>10 The Coasters -- That Is Rock And Roll -- Atco 6141 -- 1959

WINNER : COASTERS

> 8 Frankie Lymon & Teenagers -- I'm Not A Juvenile Delinquent -- Gee 1026 -- 1956
>10 The Harptones -- My Memories Of You -- Bruce 102 -- 1954

WINNER : HARPTONES

> 4 The Impressions -- I'm The One Who Loves You -- ABC Paramount 10386 -- 1962
>14 The El Dorados -- At My Front Door -- Vee Jay 147 -- 1955

WINNER : EL DORADOS

>16 The Crystals -- He's A Rebel -- Philles 106 -- 1962
> 3 The Five Sharps -- Stormy Weather -- Jubilee 5104 -- 1952

WINNER : CRYSTALS

> 7 The Angels -- My Boyfriends Back -- Smash 1834 -- 1963
>10 The Spaniels -- Everyone's Laughing -- Vee Jay 246 -- 1957

WINNER : SPANIELS

>17 The Clovers -- Blue Velvet -- Atlantic 1052 -- 1955
> 3 The Cookies -- Don't Say Nothin' Bad About My Baby -- Dimension 1008 -- 1963

WINNER : CLOVERS

>17 The Drifters -- White Christmas -- Atlantic 1048 -- 1954
> 2 The Orlons -- Don't Hang Up -- Cameo 231 -- 1962

WINNER : DRIFTERS

> 9 The Chiffons -- He's So Fine -- Laurie 3152 -- 1963
>11 The Soul Stirrers -- Touch The Hem Of His Garment -- Specialty 896 -- 1956

WINNER : SOUL STIRRERS

> 9 The Crests -- Trouble In Paradise -- Coed 531 -- 1960
>11 The Du-Droppers -- Can't Do Sixty No More -- Red Robin 108 -- 1952

WINNER : DU-DROPPERS

> 2 Jay & The Americans -- She Cried -- United Artists 415 -- 1962
>18 The Chantels -- Maybe -- End 1005 -- 1957

WINNER : CHANTELS

>16 The Robins -- Riot In Cell Block # 9 -- Spark 103 -- 1954
> 1 The Orioles -- At Night -- Jubilee 5025 -- 1950

WINNER : ROBINS

> 5 The Spaniels -- The Bells Ring Out -- Vee Jay 103 -- 1953
>12 Shirley Gunter & The Queens -- Oop Shoop -- Flair 1050 -- 1954

WINNER : GUNTER/QUEENS

> 3 Billy Ward & His Dominoes -- These Foolish Things Remind Me Of You -- Federal 12129 -- 1953
>16 The Coasters -- Searchin' -- Atco 6087 -- 1957

WINNER : COASTERS

>12 Garnet Mimms & The Enchanters -- Cry Baby -- United Artists 629 -- 1963
> 7 The Drifters -- I Count The Tears -- Atlantic 2087 -- 1960

WINNER : MIMMS/ENCHANTERS

> 3 The Platters -- Harbor Lights -- Mercury 71563 -- 1960
>17 The Marvelettes -- Please Mister Postman -- Tamla 54046 -- 1961

WINNER : MARVELETTES

> 4 The Crystals -- Uptown -- Philles 102 -- 1962
>16 The Swallows -- It Ain't The Meat -- King 4501 -- 1951

WINNER : SWALLOWS

>12 The Turbans -- When You Dance -- Herald 458 -- 1955
> 8 The Shirelles -- Baby It's You -- Scepter 1227 -- 1961

WINNER : TURBANS

All designated winners move to Round Two

Regrettably owing to a heavy day at work today Round Two will probably
be delayed appearing here and on website until tomorrow (Weds)

Keep watching the skies!

ROGER FORD
-----------------------

"Spam Free Zone" - to combat unwanted automatic spamming I have added
an extra "b" in my e-mail address (mari...@bblueyonder.co.uk).
Please delete same before responding.Thank you!

[Bob Roman]

> > 8  The Platters -- Only You -- Mercury 70633 -- 1955
> >10  The Coasters -- That Is Rock And Roll -- Atco 6141 -- 1959
>
> WINNER : COASTERS

That's a pretty big upset.

--
BR

[Mark Dintenfass]

In article
<95f6e1e0-a7f4-406a...@p27g2000vbl.googlegroups.com>,

Is it? I think the Platters have been tagged with being "too pop" by
some of the hardcore group harmony people, and their showing in these
contests, IIRC, doesn't nearly match up to their chart supremacy in the
50s.

Anyway, the result is a good one. Is there any other single in the era
where a non-charting flip is that much better than the big hit A-side?

--
--md
_________
Remove xx's from address to reply

[Bob Roman]

On May 22, 10:24 am, Mark Dintenfass <mdintenf...@xxnew.rr.com> wrote:
> In article
> <95f6e1e0-a7f4-406a-8630-beadc9844...@p27g2000vbl.googlegroups.com>,

>
> Bob Roman <robertjro...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > 8  The Platters -- Only You -- Mercury 70633 -- 1955
> > > >10  The Coasters -- That Is Rock And Roll -- Atco 6141 -- 1959
>
> > > WINNER : COASTERS
>
> > That's a pretty big upset.
>
> Is it? I think the Platters have been tagged with being "too pop" by
> some of the hardcore group harmony people, and their showing in these
> contests, IIRC, doesn't nearly match up to their chart supremacy in the
> 50s.
>
> Anyway, the result is a good one. Is there any other single in the era
> where a non-charting flip is that much better than the big hit A-side?

I voted for the Platters (Tony Williams is great here) but that's not
what was driving my comment. I considered voting for TIR&R.

Regardless of the competition it just surprises me that a record as
iconic as "Only You" fell in the first round. It's as if "Earth
Angel" had fallen to "Daddy Cool."

--
BR

[F R]

Bob>

I voted for the Platters (Tony Williams is great here) but that's not
what was driving my comment. I considered voting for TIR&R.
Regardless of the competition it just surprises me that a record as
iconic as "Only You" fell in the first round. It's as if "Earth Angel"
had fallen to "Daddy Cool."

---------------------
I never loved "Only You" during their incredible run of hits. It was
O.K. but I liked songs like "The Great Pretender", "One in a Million",
"My Prayer", "My Dream" and "Heaven on Earth" much more. Many here like
"Smoke Gets in Your Eyes" a lot, but it wouldn't make my Platters' top
10 list if I had one.

[Mark Dintenfass]

In article <10959-4FB...@storefull-3112.bay.webtv.net>, F R

It would top mine, followed by "My Prayer," "The Great Pretender," and
then "Only You," if only for the sublime "uh-oh-nly." "The Magic Touch"
would fill out my top 5.

[Mark Dintenfass]

In article
<e881e635-3559-40e6...@z19g2000vbe.googlegroups.com>,

But "TIR&R" is one of L&S's great ones, way better then "Daddy Cool."
And speaking of flips, I was surprised by the big win of "Hey Senorita"
over a very good Shirelles hit.

[Rick Schubert]

On Tue, 22 May 2012 04:50:27 GMT, mari...@bblueyonder.co.uk (Roger Ford) wrote:

>Here are the voting results in Round One - Part Two of the Vocal
>Groups Battle. 20 people voted. There were FOUR draws :-

>> 6 The Dominoes -- That's What You're Doing To Me -- Federal 12059 -- 1952
>>13 The Miracles -- You've Really Got A Hold On Me -- Tamla 54073 -- 1962

>WINNER : MIRACLES

Too bad; I had been hoping that "That's What You're Doing To Me" would eventually come up against
"Sincerely."

>>18 The Moonglows -- Sincerely -- Chess 1581 -- 1954
>> 0 The Checkers -- Night's Curtains -- King 4581 -- 1952

>WINNER : MOONGLOWS

-- Rick Schubert <r...@san.rr.com>

[Roger Ford]

"Smoke Gets In Your Eyes" EASILY tops my list of favorite Platters
tracks. In fact its one of my very favorite revivals of a "standard"
rivalled only by Ray Charles' "Georgia On My Mind".

OTOH I never cared for "You've Got The) Magic Touch" which always
seemed to be well below par compared with their others from that
period. I'd go with the much better "You'll Never Never Know"

[Mark Dintenfass]

In article <4fbc0ea9...@news.virginmedia.com>, Roger Ford

YNNK would be my #6 if I went that far, but between it and "Magic
Touch," I don't see a great deal of difference in quality. Both are a
drop-off from the top 4. If I went further, I'd probably pick "Twilight
Time," and then their very good version of "My Old Flame," which was
never a single and has Zola Taylor doing her best Billie Holiday
imitation.

[F R]

Mark>

It would top mine, followed by "My Prayer," "The Great Pretender," and
then "Only You," if only for the sublime "uh-oh-nly." "The Magic Touch"
would fill out my top 5.

--------------------
Like the third incarnation of the pop sounding '60s Drifters, I liked
the Platters earlier doo-wopish songs better than ones like "Harbor
Lights", 'Twilight Time" and songs of that ilk, although I disliked
hardly anything they did because of William's great voice.

[The Bloomfield Bloviator]

They have 6 or 7 songs that are roughly equal for me.

The Great Pretender
My Prayer
It Isn't Right

You'll Never Never Know

Twilight Time

Smoke Gets In Your Eyes

"Only You" is a cunt hair below the other 6,

[Mark Dintenfass]

In article <27560-4FB...@storefull-3111.bay.webtv.net>, F R

If you leave Clyde McPhatter out of the discussion, you can certainly
make a case for Williams being one of the greatest vocal group leads.

[DianeE]

"Roger Ford" <mari...@bblueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message
news:4fbc0ea9...@news.virginmedia.com...

>>
> "Smoke Gets In Your Eyes" EASILY tops my list of favorite Platters
> tracks. In fact its one of my very favorite revivals of a "standard"
> rivalled only by Ray Charles' "Georgia On My Mind".
>
> OTOH I never cared for "You've Got The) Magic Touch" which always
> seemed to be well below par compared with their others from that
> period. I'd go with the much better "You'll Never Never Know"

-----------------
My favorite Platters record is "Twilight Time," followed by "My Prayer." I
completely agree with you about "The Magic Touch." There's just something
hokey about the arrangement, to me. Also agree about "You'll Never Never
Know."

DianeE

[DianeE]

"Bob Roman" <robert...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:95f6e1e0-a7f4-406a...@p27g2000vbl.googlegroups.com...

--------------
I voted for the Platters, but in this group I'm not surprised by the above
result. A lot of praise has been heaped on that Coasters record over the
years.

I don't much like it, myself. As I've said before, the name of the record
is "That Is Rock And Roll," but the record itself *isn't* rock & roll, it's
more like....I don't know, maybe Dixieland or something. You sure can't
dance to it!

DianeE

[Bob Roman]

On May 22, 1:32 pm, Mark Dintenfass <mdintenf...@xxnew.rr.com> wrote:

> It would top mine, followed by "My Prayer," "The Great Pretender," and
> then "Only You," if only for the sublime "uh-oh-nly." "The Magic Touch"
> would fill out my top 5.

Do you prefer the Ink Spots or the Platters on "My Prayer"?

--
BR

[PStoller]

On Tuesday, May 22, 2012 7:09:33 PM UTC-7, DianeE wrote:
>
> As I've said before, the name of the record is "That Is Rock And Roll," but

> the record itself *isn't* rock & roll, it's more like...I don't know, maybe
> Dixieland or something.

FWIW, Jerry and Mike always agreed with this assessment.

I would say that both the music and lyrics are an outsider's commentary on rock & roll, rather than the thing itself. If you regard it as a parody of attitudes about R&R, then it's a commentary on a commentary. Perhaps it reflects the fact that L&S didn't claim the R&R label for themselves, but rather had it thrust upon them.

[The Bloomfield Bloviator]

On May 22, 11:38 pm, PStoller <afcpet...@aol.com> wrote:
> On Tuesday, May 22, 2012 7:09:33 PM UTC-7, DianeE wrote:
>
> > As I've said before, the name of the record is "That Is Rock And Roll," but
> > the record itself *isn't* rock & roll, it's more like...I don't know, maybe
> > Dixieland or something.
>
> FWIW, Jerry and Mike always agreed with this assessment.

It's not worth much. Having talent to write songs does not necesarrily
qualify you to identify genres.

> I would say that both the music and lyrics are an outsider's commentary on rock & roll, rather than the thing itself. If you regard it as a parody of attitudes about R&R, then it's a commentary on a commentary. Perhaps it reflects the fact that L&S didn't claim the R&R label for themselves, but rather had it thrust upon them.

An outsider would never understand it enough to describe it so well.

[Roger Ford]

On Tue, 22 May 2012 17:34:01 -0500, Mark Dintenfass

"My Old Flame" was most certainly a single for The Platters and
appeared as the flip to the #50 hit "You're Making A Mistake" on
Mercury 71320 in 1958. Both sides featured in that years Singles
Battle.

[Roger Ford]

Another of my favorites by them and one that REALLY was never a single
(not in US or UK anyway) is their version of Gershwin's "Someone To
Watch Over Me" that was also fronted by Zola Taylor. It appeared on
their first Mercury LP "The Platters" in 1956.

[PStoller]

On Tuesday, May 22, 2012 8:57:23 PM UTC-7, The Bloomfield Bloviator wrote:
>
> > > As I've said before, the name of the record is "That Is Rock And Roll," but
> > > the record itself *isn't* rock & roll, it's more like...I don't know, maybe
> > > Dixieland or something.
> >
> > FWIW, Jerry and Mike always agreed with this assessment.
>
> It's not worth much. Having talent to write songs does not necesarrily
> qualify you to identify genres.

Maybe, but they're still more qualified than anyone in this group.

> > I would say that both the music and lyrics are an outsider's commentary on rock & roll, rather than the thing itself. If you regard it as a parody of attitudes about R&R, then it's a commentary on a commentary. Perhaps it reflects the fact that L&S didn't claim the R&R label for themselves, but rather had it thrust upon them.
>
> An outsider would never understand it enough to describe it so well.

Depends from where "outside" one hails. (And I thought you weren't a lyric guy.)

[The Bloomfield Bloviator]

On May 24, 1:34 am, PStoller <afcpet...@aol.com> wrote:
> On Tuesday, May 22, 2012 8:57:23 PM UTC-7, The Bloomfield Bloviator wrote:
>
> > > > As I've said before, the name of the record is "That Is Rock And Roll," but
> > > > the record itself *isn't* rock & roll, it's more like...I don't know, maybe
> > > > Dixieland or something.
>
> > > FWIW, Jerry and Mike always agreed with this assessment.
>
> > It's not worth much. Having talent to write songs does not necesarrily
> > qualify you to identify genres.
>
> Maybe, but they're still more qualified than anyone in this group.

I beg to differ. I doubt very much they've studied the evolution of
rock and roll to anywhere near the extent that some of us around here
have.

> > > I would say that both the music and lyrics are an outsider's commentary on rock & roll, rather than the thing itself. If you regard it as a parody of attitudes about R&R, then it's a commentary on a commentary. Perhaps it reflects the fact that L&S didn't claim the R&R label for themselves, but rather had it thrust upon them.
>
> > An outsider would never understand it enough to describe it so well.
>
> Depends from where "outside" one hails. (And I thought you weren't a lyric guy.)

I'm not, but it doesn't take long to analyze those lyrics.

[Mark Dintenfass]

In article
<2290adb8-d7d6-4a9c...@m8g2000yqo.googlegroups.com>, Bob

Platters. I know that nowadays it sounds a bit schmaltzy, but William's
vocal and the emphasized beat still do it for me, even leaving aside
the heavy dose of nostalgia involved.

[Mark Dintenfass]

In article <922ad6f7-f4d9-440b...@googlegroups.com>,

I'ver never been in favor of rigid genre definitions, and I suppose L&S
would have thought of their genre as r&b in the early years, but it's
hard to see why, aside from modesty, they would not "claim" the
rock'n'roll label. Having lived through it, I think they were not only
doing r'n'r, their work went a long way toward inventing what r'n'r
was. Or am I just echoing what you mean when you say the label was
thrust upon them?

[Bob Roman]

On May 24, 9:24 am, Mark Dintenfass <mdintenf...@xxnew.rr.com> wrote:

> Bob Roman <robertjro...@gmail.com> wrote:

> > Do you prefer the Ink Spots or the Platters on "My Prayer"?
>
> Platters. I know that nowadays it sounds a bit schmaltzy, but William's
> vocal and the emphasized beat still do it for me, even leaving aside
> the heavy dose of nostalgia involved.

To me, how Bill Kenny caresses the word "linger" in the opening line
makes the whole song.

--
BR

[PStoller]

On Thursday, May 24, 2012 6:35:15 AM UTC-7, Mark Dintenfass wrote:
>
> I've never been in favor of rigid genre definitions, and I suppose L&S

> would have thought of their genre as r&b in the early years, but it's
> hard to see why, aside from modesty, they would not "claim" the
> rock'n'roll label. Having lived through it, I think they were not only
> doing r'n'r, their work went a long way toward inventing what r'n'r
> was. Or am I just echoing what you mean when you say the label was
> thrust upon them?

Not so much echoing as expanding upon it. Leiber & Stoller did eventually claim the rock & roll label for reasons musicological, historical, and commercial, but R&R wasn't what they set out to do: it just turned out to be a large part of what they did. As we've discussed before, the term "rock and roll" was used to refer to the sort of R&B L&S made at their outset well before they were the ones making it, so in that sense they couldn't possibly have invented it. They were among those who guided R&R through the '50s and into the mid '60s, bringing new sounds and influences into the music; in that sense, they were "inventors," but hardly THE inventors. (I think "innovators" is a better term.) And while they had a lot to do with how the music developed in terms of songwriting and record production, it's key that, to whatever extent R&R is truly "defined," it's primarily in performance.

Like you, I find rigid genre definitions problematic, especially for "living" music. Rock & roll means different things even to the individual members of this group today. To Bruce, "That Is Rock & Roll" *is* rock & roll for any number of reasons, possibly including: it was written and produced by R&R songwriters/producers, performed by an R&R group, recorded on an R&R-centric label, and sold to an R&R audience. Where else would you put the record in a record store? Of what other genre's history is it a part? From that perspective, Bruce is right.

OTOH, to Diane, it *isn't* R&R, because it doesn't have a real, danceable R&R beat. It also doesn't have a typical R&R harmonic structure, and there's even a banjo on it. Jerry noted that they were going for a New Orleans, "Down At Papa Joe's"-type thing and missed the mark. So, from a musical perspective -- and a historical perspective c. 1959 rather than 2012 -- Jerry and Mike (and Diane) are right.

I'm pretty sure that more people share Bruce's opinion, but not because he or they have "studied the evolution of rock & roll." The further we've moved from the beginnings of R&R (whether you make that out to be the late '40s or mid '50s), the more elastic its definition has become. There are things that many people call "rock and roll" today that are a lot further from it than "That Is Rock & Roll." Some of us might tell those many people that they're wrong. But, fifty years from now, the broader viewpoint will likely have won out, and nobody will know or care what we had to say about it, nor why.

[The Bloomfield Bloviator]

On May 25, 7:23 pm, PStoller <afcpet...@aol.com> wrote:
> On Thursday, May 24, 2012 6:35:15 AM UTC-7, Mark Dintenfass wrote:
>
> > I've never been in favor of rigid genre definitions, and I suppose L&S
> > would have thought of their genre as r&b in the early years, but it's
> > hard to see why, aside from modesty, they would not "claim" the
> > rock'n'roll label. Having lived through it, I think they were not only
> > doing r'n'r, their work went a long way toward inventing what r'n'r
> > was. Or am I just echoing what you mean when you say the label was
> > thrust upon them?
>
> Not so much echoing as expanding upon it. Leiber & Stoller did eventually claim the rock & roll label for reasons musicological, historical, and commercial, but R&R wasn't what they set out to do: it just turned out to be a large part of what they did. As we've discussed before, the term "rock and roll" was used to refer to the sort of R&B L&S made at their outset well before they were the ones making it, so in that sense they couldn't possibly have invented it. They were among those who guided R&R through the '50s and into the mid '60s, bringing new sounds and influences into the music; in that sense, they were "inventors," but hardly THE inventors. (I think "innovators" is a better term.) And while they had a lot to do with how the music developed in terms of songwriting and record production, it's key that, to whatever extent R&R is truly "defined," it's primarily in performance.
>
> Like you, I find rigid genre definitions problematic, especially for "living" music. Rock & roll means different things even to the individual members of this group today. To Bruce, "That Is Rock & Roll" *is* rock & roll for any number of reasons, possibly including: it was written and produced by R&R songwriters/producers, performed by an R&R group, recorded on an R&R-centric label, and sold to an R&R audience. Where else would you put the record in a record store? Of what other genre's history is it a part? From that perspective, Bruce is right.

What about the title? Isn't that an indication of the genre? It's
not called "What's Rock And Roll."

> OTOH, to Diane, it *isn't* R&R, because it doesn't have a real, danceable R&R beat. It also doesn't have a typical R&R harmonic structure, and there's even a banjo on it. Jerry noted that they were going for a New Orleans, "Down At Papa Joe's"-type thing and missed the mark. So, from a musical perspective -- and a historical perspective c. 1959 rather than 2012 -- Jerry and Mike (and Diane) are right.

How can they be right when "Down At Papa Joe's" is from 4 years later?

[PStoller]

On Friday, May 25, 2012 4:31:51 PM UTC-7, The Bloomfield Bloviator wrote:
>
> What about the title? Isn't that an indication of the genre?

No, it's only an indication of the subject.

> > Jerry noted that they were going for a New Orleans, "Down At Papa Joe's"-type thing and missed the mark. So, from a musical perspective -- and a historical perspective c. 1959 rather than 2012 -- Jerry and Mike (and Diane) are right.
>
> How can they be right when "Down At Papa Joe's" is from 4 years later?

He didn't say they were influenced by "Down at Papa Joe's," he said they were going for the same type of thing: which is to say, closer to dixieland (or a dixieland pastiche) than what they got.

[Mark Dintenfass]

In article <42c6e7ef-b56d-413b...@googlegroups.com>,

PStoller <afcp...@aol.com> wrote:

> On Thursday, May 24, 2012 6:35:15 AM UTC-7, Mark Dintenfass wrote:
> >
> > I've never been in favor of rigid genre definitions, and I suppose L&S
> > would have thought of their genre as r&b in the early years, but it's
> > hard to see why, aside from modesty, they would not "claim" the
> > rock'n'roll label. Having lived through it, I think they were not only
> > doing r'n'r, their work went a long way toward inventing what r'n'r
> > was. Or am I just echoing what you mean when you say the label was
> > thrust upon them?
>
> Not so much echoing as expanding upon it. Leiber & Stoller did eventually
> claim the rock & roll label for reasons musicological, historical, and
> commercial, but R&R wasn't what they set out to do: it just turned out to be
> a large part of what they did. As we've discussed before, the term "rock and
> roll" was used to refer to the sort of R&B L&S made at their outset well
> before they were the ones making it, so in that sense they couldn't possibly
> have invented it. They were among those who guided R&R through the '50s and
> into the mid '60s, bringing new sounds and influences into the music; in that
> sense, they were "inventors," but hardly THE inventors. (I think "innovators"
> is a better term.) And while they had a lot to do with how the music
> developed in terms of songwriting and record production, it's key that, to
> whatever extent R&R is truly "defined," it's primarily in performance.

Yes, "inventing" was probably the wrong word since I don't think L&S
were original in the sense of creating a whole new musical style. If,
as I believe, r'n'r was primarily about marketing r&b styles and
sometimes r&b performers to a young white audience, than L&S's
achievement with the Coasters particularly was to find a way of making
r'n'r thoroughly mainstream without seriously compromising its r&b
roots (as a lot of other r'n'r of the period did). I don't know how to
explain what I mean without being confessional. It still amazes me how
"black" the Coasters sounded and how little it seemed to matter to me.
A bit earlier, when I was fourteen or fifteen listening to the stuff
that Alan Freed played in his early years in NY, I was fascinated
because r&b was so clearly in, of, and by a world that was different
from mine. But I didn't feel that way about the Coasters. I wasn't just
eavesdropping on them the way I felt I was eavesdropping on Big
Maybelle or Joe Turner and even Fats Domino. With the Coasters, I was
being addressed directly even while the music's blackness remained
un-compromised. That's how L&S in a sense gave shape to what was good
about r'n'r, and that's what I had in mind in my previous comment.

[The Bloomfield Bloviator]

On May 25, 8:00 pm, PStoller <afcpet...@aol.com> wrote:
> On Friday, May 25, 2012 4:31:51 PM UTC-7, The Bloomfield Bloviator wrote:
>
> > What about the title?  Isn't that an indication of the genre?
>
> No, it's only an indication of the subject.

So you're saying that a record with "Rock And Roll" in the title has
no better chance of being in the rock and roll genre than any random
record that does not have "Rock And Roll" in the title?

It may be a bigger indication of the subject than of the genre, but
it's still "an indication" of the genre.

> > > Jerry noted that they were going for a New Orleans, "Down At Papa Joe's"-type thing and missed the mark.

By his own admission, they missed the mark (and make a rock and roll
record instead).

Are there dixieland records that have rock and roll sax breaks?

[Mark Dintenfass]

In article
<bfb2a121-6b23-44ba...@n42g2000yqm.googlegroups.com>,

The Bloomfield Bloviator <Sav...@aol.com> wrote:

> On May 25, 8:00 pm, PStoller <afcpet...@aol.com> wrote:
> > On Friday, May 25, 2012 4:31:51 PM UTC-7, The Bloomfield Bloviator wrote:
> >
> > > What about the title?  Isn't that an indication of the genre?
> >
> > No, it's only an indication of the subject.
>
> So you're saying that a record with "Rock And Roll" in the title has
> no better chance of being in the rock and roll genre than any random
> record that does not have "Rock And Roll" in the title?
>
> It may be a bigger indication of the subject than of the genre, but
> it's still "an indication" of the genre.

So "Rock and Roll Waltz" is rock and roll?

[Eric Ramon]

On May 25, 7:14 pm, The Bloomfield Bloviator <Savo...@aol.com> wrote:

> So you're saying that a record with "Rock And Roll" in the title has
> no better chance of being in the rock and roll genre than any random
> record that does not have "Rock And Roll" in the title?
>
> It may be a bigger indication of the subject than of the genre, but
> it's still "an indication" of the genre.
>

anything by Georgia Gibbs with the word "rock" in the title.

[The Bloomfield Bloviator]

On May 25, 10:20 pm, Mark Dintenfass <mdintenf...@xxnew.rr.com> wrote:
> In article
> <bfb2a121-6b23-44ba-8dcd-745222035...@n42g2000yqm.googlegroups.com>,

> The Bloomfield Bloviator <Savo...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> > On May 25, 8:00 pm, PStoller <afcpet...@aol.com> wrote:
> > > On Friday, May 25, 2012 4:31:51 PM UTC-7, The Bloomfield Bloviator wrote:
>
> > > > What about the title? Isn't that an indication of the genre?
>
> > > No, it's only an indication of the subject.
>
> > So you're saying that a record with "Rock And Roll" in the title has
> > no better chance of being in the rock and roll genre than any random
> > record that does not have "Rock And Roll" in the title?
>
> > It may be a bigger indication of the subject than of the genre, but
> > it's still "an indication" of the genre.
>
> So "Rock and Roll Waltz" is rock and roll?

"An indication" jackass, and in that case, it's "Rock And Roll" is NOT
the subject matter either.

[PStoller]

On Friday, May 25, 2012 7:14:11 PM UTC-7, The Bloomfield Bloviator wrote:
>
> > > What about the title?  Isn't that an indication of the genre?
> >
> > No, it's only an indication of the subject.
>
> So you're saying that a record with "Rock And Roll" in the title has
> no better chance of being in the rock and roll genre than any random
> record that does not have "Rock And Roll" in the title?
>
> It may be a bigger indication of the subject than of the genre, but
> it's still "an indication" of the genre.

It's neither a direct nor reliable indication of the genre. Granted, more record with "rock & roll" in the title are in than out of the genre, but you cannot simply infer the one from the other. In fact, I'm sure that with your expertise, you could come up with more examples of non-R&R records with R&R in the title than I, were you so inclined. Countless non-retro records from the late '60s onward have been thus titled, and I don't know that you'd consider any of them to be R&R. Maybe you think "Rock & Roll Waltz" is R&R: that would make one of us.

> > > > Jerry noted that they were going for a New Orleans, "Down At Papa Joe's"-type thing and missed the mark.
>
> By his own admission, they missed the mark (and make a rock and roll
> record instead).

The parenthetical addendum was not by Jerry's admission. He started from the premise that it was not really rock & roll.

> Are there dixieland records that have rock and roll sax breaks?

At least one, apparently. :)

[PStoller]

On Friday, May 25, 2012 6:00:07 PM UTC-7, Mark Dintenfass wrote:
>
> If, as I believe, r'n'r was primarily about marketing r&b styles and
> sometimes r&b performers to a young white audience, than L&S's
> achievement with the Coasters particularly was to find a way of making
> r'n'r thoroughly mainstream without seriously compromising its r&b
> roots (as a lot of other r'n'r of the period did). I don't know how to
> explain what I mean without being confessional. It still amazes me how
> "black" the Coasters sounded and how little it seemed to matter to me.
> A bit earlier, when I was fourteen or fifteen listening to the stuff
> that Alan Freed played in his early years in NY, I was fascinated
> because r&b was so clearly in, of, and by a world that was different
> from mine. But I didn't feel that way about the Coasters. I wasn't just
> eavesdropping on them the way I felt I was eavesdropping on Big
> Maybelle or Joe Turner and even Fats Domino. With the Coasters, I was
> being addressed directly even while the music's blackness remained
> un-compromised. That's how L&S in a sense gave shape to what was good
> about r'n'r, and that's what I had in mind in my previous comment.

Well, their songs weren't all about sex, and when they were it was either from a less "knowing" or less graphic perspective than most R&B/blues records. Likewise, the Coasters didn't do the sort of straightforward romantic material -- covers of standards or writing inspired by standards -- as did typical doo-wop groups. So, those records addressed teenagers -- black and white -- in a way other records didn't. Big Joe Turner might be addressing your parents -- or somebody else's parents -- but he wouldn't include you the way the Coasters did.

One of the distinctions people draw between R&B and R&R is that the former was addressed to adults and the latter to teens. What L&S did was address teens without talking down to them; they were teens themselves when they started, and if they were savvy enough to grasp adult language and concepts, why wouldn't their audience be as well? So, they wrote songs that appealed to themselves, and were fortunate that many listeners shared their tastes. It didn't hurt that the Coasters were magnificent performers, either. The "blackness" of the musical and lyrical vernacular not only didn't require any dilution to cross over, but was an essential part of its appeal to the authors. It was inextricable from the whole of the work.

I'd say the records L&S made with the Coasters (and the Robins at Spark) were the most uncompromising of their careers. They wouldn't be so "pure" again until their late '60s-mid '70s work with Peggy Lee in an entirely different mode.

[The Bloomfield Bloviator]

On May 26, 12:43 am, PStoller <afcpet...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> It's neither a direct nor reliable indication of the genre.

I'd disagree. and say that well over 90% of records with "Rock And
Roll" in the title are part of the rock and roll genre, making it a
very reliable predictor of the genre.

> Granted, more record with "rock & roll" in the title are in than out of the genre, but you cannot simply infer the one from the other.

It's not 100%, no, but it's a great indicator. If I gave you two
titles, let's say....

Let's Rock And Roll
Let's Do The Tango

Would you have a good idea as to which one was more likely to be part
of the rock and roll genre?

> In fact, I'm sure that with your expertise, you could come up with more examples of non-R&R records with R&R in the title than I, were you so inclined. Countless non-retro records from the late '60s onward have been thus titled, and I don't know that you'd consider any of them to be R&R.

On the contrary, I'd probabaly consider ALL of the post 50s one to be
rock and roll. I am not one who thinks that there is a difference
between rock and roll and rock. For me, U2 and REM are as much a part
of rock and roll as anything from the 50s.

> > > > > Jerry noted that they were going for a New Orleans, "Down At Papa Joe's"-type thing and missed the mark.
>
> > By his own admission, they missed the mark (and make a rock and roll
> > record instead).
>
> The parenthetical addendum was not by Jerry's admission. He started from the premise that it was not really rock & roll.
>
> > Are there dixieland records that have rock and roll sax breaks?
>
> At least one, apparently. :)

I did not even know that Dixieland records had vocals, let alone sax
breaks.

[Mark Dintenfass]

In article <d2cb2ff3-7770-4e1d...@googlegroups.com>,

That all sounds right to me. And I'd add one more thing: the hip,
ironic, urban--oh, why not just say Jewish sense of comedy that L&S
brought to the mix. African trickster meets shtetl hipster. That put
their work with the Coasters on familiar ground for me, even if I
couldn't have articulated it back then. In that, too, they were ahead
of (or shaping) the curve since not long after we got the got the
emergence of hip Jewish comedians (Mort Sahl, Lenny Bruce) and even
hip Jewish comic novelists (Philip Roth, Joseph Heller) who moved
mainstream American comedy and literature in a similar
direction--similar, that is, to the sensibility of r'n'r.

[Bob Roman]

On May 25, 7:23 pm, PStoller <afcpet...@aol.com> wrote:

> I'm pretty sure that more people share Bruce's opinion, but not
> because he or they have "studied the evolution of rock & roll."
> The further we've moved from the beginnings of R&R (whether
> you make that out to be the late '40s or mid '50s), the more
> elastic its definition has become. There are things that many
> people call "rock and roll" today that are a lot further from it
> than "That Is Rock & Roll." Some of us might tell those many
> people that they're wrong. But, fifty years from now, the broader
> viewpoint will likely have won out, and nobody will know or care
> what we had to say about it, nor why.

The same could be said of jazz. Purely as music it seems strange to
include ODJB's "Tiger Rag" and Coleman's "Free Jazz" under the same
genre label, but everyone accepts that they are.

--
BR

[PStoller]

On Friday, May 25, 2012 11:53:19 PM UTC-7, The Bloomfield Bloviator wrote:
>
> ... well over 90% of records with "Rock And Roll" in the title are part of

> the rock and roll genre, making it a very reliable predictor of the genre.
>

> If I gave you two titles, let's say....
>
> Let's Rock And Roll
> Let's Do The Tango
>
> Would you have a good idea as to which one was more likely to be part
> of the rock and roll genre?

Sure. But, "more likely to be" is a long way from "is."

You're trying to apply general tendencies to specific examples. That never works. L&S also wrote a song called "Tango" that is not a tango. Regardless of how generally likely a song with "tango" in the title is to be a tango, *that* "Tango" is not "more likely to be" one -- because it isn't one.

> I am not one who thinks that there is a difference between rock and
> roll and rock. For me, U2 and REM are as much a part of rock and roll
> as anything from the 50s.

I stand corrected.

> > > Are there dixieland records that have rock and roll sax breaks?
> >
> > At least one, apparently. :)
>
> I did not even know that Dixieland records had vocals, let alone sax
> breaks.

C'mon, now. Back in the '20s, Louis Armstrong sang with the Hot Five, and both Johnny Dodds and Jimmy Strong doubled on sax. By the late '50s, all sorts of changes/variations had been incorporated into traditional jazz.