Jethro Tull
Anthony Hobbs
I would like to officially state here that _A_ is a GREAT album. It's
almost like the Tull's version of _Drama_.
--
Anthony "Slug of Doom" Hobbs, GCP: musician and amateur ranter, Wellington, NZ.
ant...@actrix.gen.nz http://shell.ihug.co.nz/~norway/hobbs.htm
McGillicuddy Serious Party candidate for Invercargill
"you can quote me *any* time, Mr Hobbs" - Wendy Vig on alt.music.yes.
Edward Antoniu
ant...@atlantis.actrix.gen.nz (Anthony Hobbs) writes:
>I would like to officially state here that _A_ is a GREAT album. It's
>almost like the Tull's version of _Drama_.
>--
>Anthony "Slug of Doom" Hobbs
Right. But with the Tull version of Anderson (!) in, and no St. Trevor
to take over, with the Tull version of Downes joining, with the Tull versions
of Wakeman and White leaving or being left, with the Tull version of Howe in,
and, finally, with the Tull version of Squire playing bass not on _A_, but on
some tracks of the previous album (_Stormwatch_) only, and playing harmonica
not occasionally, but flute, as a general rule.
Eddie
DRes
ant...@atlantis.actrix.gen.nz (Anthony Hobbs) wrote:
>
>I would like to officially state here that _A_ is a GREAT album. It's
>almost like the Tull's version of _Drama_.
>--
I think it is quite good and underrated (especially 4WD Low Ratio, though
my favorite song is And Further On), but personally, I prefer Broadsword
and the Beast for 80s Tull.
--
Bye
DRes
**************************************************************************
"There'll be war, there'll be peace, but everything one day will cease,
All the iron turned to rust, all the proud men turned to dust"-D. Gilmour
"All that is now, all that is gone, all that's to come, and everything
under the sun is in tune, But the sun is eclipsed by the moon"- R. Waters
**************************************************************************
Christopher Norman
Anthony Hobbs (ant...@atlantis.actrix.gen.nz) wrote:
: I would like to officially state here that _A_ is a GREAT album. It's
: almost like the Tull's version of _Drama_.
I can't tell you how gratified I am to hear that. I've been the
_A_ equivalent of the Panthers on a.m.jethro-tull for a while, and unlike
_Drama_, it really *is* a great album.
Christopher Norman
Jeff Wilcox
In article <4rppj1$9...@atlantis.atlantis.actrix.gen.nz>, ant...@atlantis.actrix.gen.nz (Anthony Hobbs) writes:
|>
|> I would like to officially state here that _A_ is a GREAT album. It's
|> almost like the Tull's version of _Drama_.
|> --
oh dear.
|> Anthony "Slug of Doom" Hobbs, GCP: musician and amateur ranter, Wellington, NZ.
|> ant...@actrix.gen.nz http://shell.ihug.co.nz/~norway/hobbs.htm
|> McGillicuddy Serious Party candidate for Invercargill
|> "you can quote me *any* time, Mr Hobbs" - Wendy Vig on alt.music.yes.
--
*******************************************************************
* I am me. I was so before you. But afterwards, I am not the same.*
* * wil...@emc.com *
*******************************************************************
Richard Barnes
In article <4rs3ss$f...@scapa.cs.ualberta.ca>, Edward Antoniu
<ant...@cs.ualberta.ca> writes
>ant...@atlantis.actrix.gen.nz (Anthony Hobbs) writes:
>
>
>>I would like to officially state here that _A_ is a GREAT album. It's
>>almost like the Tull's version of _Drama_.
>>--
>
> Right. But with the Tull version of Anderson (!) in, and no St. Trevor
>to take over, with the Tull version of Downes joining, with the Tull versions
>of Wakeman and White leaving or being left, with the Tull version of Howe in,
>and, finally, with the Tull version of Squire playing bass not on _A_, but on
>some tracks of the previous album (_Stormwatch_) only, and playing harmonica
>not occasionally, but flute, as a general rule.
>
>Eddie
>
--
Richard Barnes (ric...@sandyrig.demon.co.uk)
"Close to the Edge"
Richard Barnes
In article <4rsgkn$s...@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>, DRes
<Pedro.R...@worldnet.att.net> writes
>ant...@atlantis.actrix.gen.nz (Anthony Hobbs) wrote:
>>
>>I would like to officially state here that _A_ is a GREAT album. It's
>>almost like the Tull's version of _Drama_.
>>--
>
>my favorite song is And Further On), but personally, I prefer Broadsword
>and the Beast for 80s Tull.
Spot on - although A and stormwatch have some merit, IMO Broadsword is
the only really good Tull of the 80s. Pity they are so inconsistent.
mathias thallmayer
Christopher Norman (cano...@unixg.ubc.ca) wrote:
>Anthony Hobbs (ant...@atlantis.actrix.gen.nz) wrote:
>: I would like to officially state here that _A_ is a GREAT album. It's
>: almost like the Tull's version of _Drama_.
>I can't tell you how gratified I am to hear that. I've been the
>_A_ equivalent of the Panthers on a.m.jethro-tull for a while, and unlike
>_Drama_, it really *is* a great album.
"A" is a great album (one of my Tull favorites) but so is "Drama".
--
Mathias
icono...@tarkus.ocis.temple.edu
Christopher Norman
Richard Barnes (ric...@sandyrig.demon.co.uk) wrote:
: In article <4rsgkn$s...@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>, DRes
: <Pedro.R...@worldnet.att.net> writes
: >ant...@atlantis.actrix.gen.nz (Anthony Hobbs) wrote:
: >>
: >>I would like to officially state here that _A_ is a GREAT album. It's
: >>almost like the Tull's version of _Drama_.
: >I think it is quite good and underrated (especially 4WD Low Ratio, though
: >my favorite song is And Further On), but personally, I prefer Broadsword
: >and the Beast for 80s Tull.
: Spot on - although A and stormwatch have some merit, IMO Broadsword is
: the only really good Tull of the 80s. Pity they are so inconsistent.
I have a special dislike for Broadsword. It's their single most boring
album, and although it's not quite as bad as Crest of a Knave or the
worst parts of Rock Island, I think of it as their worst 80s album by
far. I know lots of Tull fans worship that album, and I don't understand
why. I still say _A_ was their best until last year's _Roots to
Branches_...and even there, _A_ has the edge.
Christopher Norman
Stegor
mat...@tarkus.ocis.temple.edu (mathias thallmayer) wrote:
>Christopher Norman (cano...@unixg.ubc.ca) wrote:
>
>>: I would like to officially state here that _A_ is a GREAT album. It's
>>: almost like the Tull's version of _Drama_.
>
>>_A_ equivalent of the Panthers on a.m.jethro-tull for a while, and unlike
>>_Drama_, it really *is* a great album.
>
>
>"A" is a great album (one of my Tull favorites) but so is "Drama"
>Mathias
>
Well, I liked "Drama" but not "A" (notice I said liked - I don't think I
could listen to it with pleasure now).
-Stegor
Robin Gill
mat...@tarkus.ocis.temple.edu (mathias thallmayer) wrote:
>Christopher Norman (cano...@unixg.ubc.ca) wrote:
>>Anthony Hobbs (ant...@atlantis.actrix.gen.nz) wrote:
>
>>: I would like to officially state here that _A_ is a GREAT album. It's
>>: almost like the Tull's version of _Drama_.
>
>>I can't tell you how gratified I am to hear that. I've been the
>>_A_ equivalent of the Panthers on a.m.jethro-tull for a while, and unlike
>>_Drama_, it really *is* a great album.
>
>
>
>--
>Mathias
>
>icono...@tarkus.ocis.temple.edu
>
I heard a track from A on the radio once and was impressed so I may
well get the CD.
I can't comment about Drama as I have not heard it (they dont play
much prog stuff on the radio in the UK) but it apparently did not
get very good critical reviews.
See you
Robin Gill
r.s.c...@ais.salford.ac.uk
BRIAN R. AUST
> In article <4rppj1$9...@atlantis.atlantis.actrix.gen.nz>, ant...@atlantis.actrix.gen.nz (Anthony Hobbs) writes:
> |>
> |> almost like the Tull's version of _Drama_.
Anthony Hobbs' response to this was:
> oh dear.
I agree with Hobbs. _A_ is an astonishingly miserable album, one that
for me essentially brought Jethro Tull to an end. Wretched doesn't even
begin to describe it - hell, it was IA's solo album for most of the way,
and he just totally tossed out three of the pillar band members that
comprised the better part of the '70s, and with no explanation! Tull were
doing so well: _SftW_, _Heavy Horses_, and _Stormwatch_ represent a
trilogy of sorts for me, in that each has a fairly similar feel to each
other, although in different "settings" (wood, farm, sea). All with
gorgeous music. Then _A_ comes along, and the death knell has sounded.
Only _Broadsword_ "sort" of recaptures the old days, but it feels too
polished and synthesizery to be on par with the '70s material. Aside from
_Warchild_, which is Tull's Brain Fart of the 1970's, every album from
that decade is light years beyond _A_. I just cannot despise that album
enough - rotten lyrics, rotten music... only the cover is
semi-interesting.
Brian
BRIAN R. AUST
On Thu, 11 Jul 1996, BRIAN R. AUST wrote:
> > In article <4rppj1$9...@atlantis.atlantis.actrix.gen.nz>, ant...@atlantis.actrix.gen.nz (Anthony Hobbs) writes:
> > |>
> > |> I would like to officially state here that _A_ is a GREAT album. It's
> > |> almost like the Tull's version of _Drama_.
>
> Anthony Hobbs' response to this was:
>
> > oh dear.
>
Er... .I'm responding to my own message. The first message I got on
this subject had Hobbs saying "oh dear," but in subsequent messages (I had
a backlog of about 100) on the same thread, I've seen him quoted entirely
differently, being the guy who actually liked _A_. Anthony?? <grin> I'm
sure it was just my server screwing up or something, but which side were
you on? I didn't mean to misquote you in my first message if you did, in
fact, like _A_...
Another guy in a later message said _Broadsword_ was the single most
boring Tull album... I disagree with this statement heartily, and not one
bit because of _Broadsword_'s merits - instead it's because there are a
number of Tull albums which are incredibly WORSE. I'd go even further
than you and say that not only _Crest of a Knave_ and parts of _Rock
Island_ are worse, but the ENTIRE _Rock Island_ album, as well as _Under
Wraps_, _Catfish Rising_, _Roots to Branches_, and _Warchild_. And I say
all of this WITHOUT being a _Broadsword_ fan. I stand by the conclusion
that it is an "acceptable" album considering it came after the purging of
the heart of Tull and the subsequent dreaded _A_.
Brian
Jeff Glatt
>I would like to officially state here that _A_ is a GREAT album. It's
>almost like the Tull's version of _Drama_.
"A" is better than Drama. (I don't like the latter at all). I really
like "Batteries not Included". A few other songs are pleasant, though
otherwise not particularly notable. But it's a far cry from "Passion
Play", "Thick as a Brick", or "Songs from the Wood".
Admit it. You're just trying to shock people. Next you're going to
tell us that "Civilian", "3 of a Perfect Pair", and "And then there
were 3" are great recordings representing some of the best of their
respective bands. (I just don't know why it didn't occur to you that
an even better way to shock people would be to proclaim "Metal Machine
Music" as the pinnacle of progressive rock)
Eric Hermans
I agree but don't forget "Too old to Rock'n Roll, too young to die" that is
also crap.
--
Eric Hermans
Ulf Torkelsson
In article <4s4vjt$f...@kwuz.nerc-keyworth.ac.uk> Eric Hermans <ehe> writes:
>I agree but don't forget "Too old to Rock'n Roll, too young to die" that is
>also crap.
Hey, I like that one! The perfect album to listen to when yet another of
your old friends have given up his freedoom and got a family. :(
Ulf Torkelsson
Stegor
cano...@unixg.ubc.ca (Christopher Norman) wrote:
>I have a special dislike for Broadsword. It's their single most boring
>album, and although it's not quite as bad as Crest of a Knave or the
>worst parts of Rock Island, I think of it as their worst 80s album by
>far. I know lots of Tull fans worship that album, and I don't understand
>why. I still say _A_ was their best until last year's _Roots to
>Branches_...and even there, _A_ has the edge.
>
>Christopher Norman
>
Wow. Now you're forcing me to listen to it again. I must be missing
something. I'm not a Broadsword fan either, but I always thought it was an
improvement. I'm repeating myself, but I've always liked Eddie a lot, so
it's not his presence that ruins it for me, except that he doesn't "fit
in". Every couple years or so I pull it out and try to like it, knowing
that a big reason for my disliking it at the time was because of the
lineup change, and that's not necessarily a good reason. 16 years later I
think I'm over that shock, but I still don't like it. I'm going to have to
go through it song by song and take notes to really figure out what I have
against it.
-Stegor
Kent R. Summers
"BRIAN R. AUST" <bra...@hamlet.uncg.edu> wrote:
>On Thu, 11 Jul 1996, BRIAN R. AUST wrote:
>> > In article <4rppj1$9...@atlantis.atlantis.actrix.gen.nz>, ant...@atlantis.actrix.gen.nz (Anthony Hobbs) writes:
>> > |>
>> > |> I would like to officially state here that _A_ is a GREAT album. It's
>> > |> almost like the Tull's version of _Drama_.
>>
>> Anthony Hobbs' response to this was:
>>
>> > oh dear.
>>
> Er... .I'm responding to my own message. The first message I got on
>this subject had Hobbs saying "oh dear," but in subsequent messages (I had
>a backlog of about 100) on the same thread, I've seen him quoted entirely
>differently, being the guy who actually liked _A_. Anthony?? <grin> I'm
>sure it was just my server screwing up or something, but which side were
>you on? I didn't mean to misquote you in my first message if you did, in
>fact, like _A_...
>Another guy in a later message said _Broadsword_ was the single most
>boring Tull album... I disagree with this statement heartily, and not one
>bit because of _Broadsword_'s merits - instead it's because there are a
>number of Tull albums which are incredibly WORSE. I'd go even further
>than you and say that not only _Crest of a Knave_ and parts of _Rock
>Island_ are worse, but the ENTIRE _Rock Island_ album, as well as _Under
>Wraps_, _Catfish Rising_, _Roots to Branches_, and _Warchild_. And I say
>all of this WITHOUT being a _Broadsword_ fan. I stand by the conclusion
>that it is an "acceptable" album considering it came after the purging of
>the heart of Tull and the subsequent dreaded _A_.
>Brian
Man, all this negativism about Tull, and I am not just picking on
Brian, If someone new to Tull would listen to only you guys they
would miss out on some great music (uh, everything after 79). The
only Tull album I don't like is Catfish RIsing. All the others (IMO)
have some great stuff on them, ESPECIALLY Roots to Branches, their
most recent album.
I just felt the need to counteract all of this Tull bashing with a
positive post about Ian and the rest of the boys.
Kent
Steven Sullivan
BRIAN R. AUST (bra...@hamlet.uncg.edu) wrote:
: > In article <4rppj1$9...@atlantis.atlantis.actrix.gen.nz>, ant...@atlantis.actrix.gen.nz (Anthony Hobbs) writes:
: > |>
: > |> I would like to officially state here that _A_ is a GREAT album. It's
: > |> almost like the Tull's version of _Drama_.
: Anthony Hobbs' response to this was:
: > oh dear.
: I agree with Hobbs. _A_ is an astonishingly miserable album, one that
: for me essentially brought Jethro Tull to an end. Wretched doesn't even
: begin to describe it - hell, it was IA's solo album for most of the way,
: and he just totally tossed out three of the pillar band members that
: comprised the better part of the '70s, and with no explanation!
I just listened to it again yesterday, as it happens. Excellent bass
work, interesting blending of Jobson into the Tull sound. It's far from
'wretched', whatever the band politics were. More interesting that
'Stormwatch' and 'Heavy Horses', IMO.
Dave Lane
jgl...@servtech.com (Jeff Glatt) wrote:
> Next you're going to
>tell us that "Civilian", "3 of a Perfect Pair", and "And then there
>were 3" are great recordings representing some of the best of their
>respective bands.
Why would it shock people to hear that claim about an album with
"Nuages", "Industry" and "No Warning" on it?
--
--Dave
mathias thallmayer
Christopher Norman (cano...@unixg.ubc.ca) wrote:
>I have a special dislike for Broadsword. It's their single most boring
>album, and although it's not quite as bad as Crest of a Knave or the
>worst parts of Rock Island, I think of it as their worst 80s album by
>far. I know lots of Tull fans worship that album, and I don't understand
>why. I still say _A_ was their best until last year's _Roots to
>Branches_...and even there, _A_ has the edge.
Nah, if you want boring, pick any of the first three. I don't think
there's enough good material to make one short album.
And, while the track "Heavy Horses" is good, the rest of that album
is a snooze.
--
Mathias
icono...@tarkus.ocis.temple.edu
Anthony Hobbs
In article <4rs3ss$f...@scapa.cs.ualberta.ca>,
Edward Antoniu <ant...@cs.ualberta.ca> wrote:
> Right. But with the Tull version of Anderson (!) in, and no St. Trevor
> to take over, with the Tull version of Downes joining,
_A_ is most comporable to _Drama_ in its general technological, darker
feel, and the fact that it doesn't sound much like anything those bands
ever did.
--
Anthony Hobbs
In article <4rsh8b$l...@nntp.ucs.ubc.ca>,
Christopher Norman <cano...@unixg.ubc.ca> wrote:
> I can't tell you how gratified I am to hear that. I've been the
> _A_ equivalent of the Panthers on a.m.jethro-tull for a while, and unlike
> _Drama_, it really *is* a great album.
Don't bait me, Norman, or at least explain your criteria for greatness.
(What would an _A_ order be called? The Air Traffic Controllers, or
Controllers for short?)
Keelo
>I heard a track from A on the radio once and was impressed so I may
>well get the CD.
>I can't comment about Drama as I have not heard it (they dont play
>much prog stuff on the radio in the UK) but it apparently did not
>get very good critical reviews.
I once heard of guy, who thought he heard a track played from A, but it
turned out to be something else, but I did once see an advertisemen of
Drama in Rolling Stone - so I figured it was good idea to post
something.
kyle
Michael Nichols
BRIAN R. AUST wrote:
>
> Another guy in a later message said _Broadsword_ was the single most
> boring Tull album... I disagree with this statement heartily, and not one
> bit because of _Broadsword_'s merits - instead it's because there are a
> number of Tull albums which are incredibly WORSE. I'd go even further
> than you and say that not only _Crest of a Knave_ and parts of _Rock
> Island_ are worse, but the ENTIRE _Rock Island_ album, as well as _Under
> Wraps_, _Catfish Rising_, _Roots to Branches_, and _Warchild_. And I say
> all of this WITHOUT being a _Broadsword_ fan. I stand by the conclusion
> that it is an "acceptable" album considering it came after the purging of
> the heart of Tull and the subsequent dreaded _A_.
>
> Brian
You don't like synthesisers much, do you?
I am a huge Eddie Jobson fan, thank you very much, and I feel his contributions to A
were a huge leap forward for Tull. The subsequent tour only pointed up the plusses EJ
brought to Tull. Unfortunately, due to his not wanting to be in a group at the time, he
was only a special guest and wasn't on Broadsword.
Don't down Tull's 80's output because there ain't enough acoustic instrumentation. IMHO
that's the only difference twixt the LPs you mention. I happen to like everything from
Songs from the Wood to Crest of a Knave. I liked Passion Play, silly as it was.
So I'm not speaking from a total vacuum.
Currently listening to Magna Carta's Tull tribute CD, Killer stuff...
MJN
Jeff Glatt
>_A_ is an astonishingly miserable album, one that
>for me essentially brought Jethro Tull to an end. Wretched doesn't even
>begin to describe it
It's not *that* bad. There are a few pleasant moments.
And Jethro Tull aren't yet at an end. "Roots and Branches" has
reaffirmed that there's still life left in this band. (Maybe you gave
up too quickly? Definitely go give it a listen).
>hell, it was IA's solo album for most of the way,
>and he just totally tossed out three of the pillar band members that
>comprised the better part of the '70s, and with no explanation!
Yes, it's unfortunate that those musicians were let go, particularly
David Palmer whom I consider to be one of the best arrangers in a rock
setting, because they're a talented lot, and had gotten to the point
where they were making very worthy contributions to composition and
arranging.
On the other hand, A did have some remarkably talented musicians
involved with it. The problem was the musical composition. It was too
simple and bland.
>Tull were
>doing so well: _SftW_, _Heavy Horses_, and _Stormwatch_ represent a
>trilogy of sorts for me, in that each has a fairly similar feel to each
>other, although in different "settings" (wood, farm, sea). All with
>gorgeous music.
And exquisite lyrics. Ian really excels at depicting nature.
>Then _A_ comes along, and the death knell has sounded.
Boy, you really have it in for this recording.
>Only _Broadsword_ "sort" of recaptures the old days, but it feels too
>polished and synthesizery to be on par with the '70s material.
I think that Broadsword has some very, very nice moments. It's not
"Passion Play", "Thick as a Brick", or "Songs from the Wood", but it
has real value.
>Aside from
>_Warchild_, which is Tull's Brain Fart of the 1970's, every album from
>that decade is light years beyond _A_.
Hey, I like Warchild. Again, this has some very appealing music on it.
Sure, it has some throwaways like "Bungle in the Jungle", which while
not totally unlistenable, are rather unchallenging. But it also has
some very interesting tunes such as the title track and "Sea Lion".
And I always did like the lyrics to "Skating Away".
If there ever was a weak link in the 70's, it would have to be "Too
Old to Rock and Roll", and even then, "Quiz Kid" alone makes it all
worthwhile
Richard Barnes
In article <4s4p2p$6...@murphy2.servtech.com>, Jeff Glatt
<jgl...@servtech.com> writes
>>I would like to officially state here that _A_ is a GREAT album. It's
>>almost like the Tull's version of _Drama_.
>
>like "Batteries not Included". A few other songs are pleasant, though
>otherwise not particularly notable. But it's a far cry from "Passion
>Play", "Thick as a Brick", or "Songs from the Wood".
>
>tell us that "Civilian", "3 of a Perfect Pair", and "And then there
>were 3" are great recordings representing some of the best of their
>an even better way to shock people would be to proclaim "Metal Machine
>Music" as the pinnacle of progressive rock)
>
Pink Floyd's Final Cut, Oldfield's Earth Moving and Caravan's Back to
Front to the list of 'best ever' farts.
BRIAN R. AUST
On 12 Jul 1996, mathias thallmayer wrote:
> Nah, if you want boring, pick any of the first three. I don't think
> there's enough good material to make one short album.
>
> And, while the track "Heavy Horses" is good, the rest of that album
> is a snooze.
>
> Mathias
No way. <grin> Now you have a point on the first album, that I'll
admit. It's an interesting debut, and any blues lover will enjoy the
interesting interpretations, but for most "classic" Tull fans, it's a bit
rough and undeveloped in Tull style. Even _Stand Up_ has some weak tracks
akin to the debut...
But where your statement fails in my eyes is with regards to _Benefit_.
It's easy to make one great album out of the first 3 Tull albums because,
with the exception of "Play In Time," _Benefit_ IS that album. Granted,
some tracks are better than others, but they are all amazingly
well-developed and polished.
Particular cases in point are "With You There to Help Me" and "Sossity
You're a Woman."
One good album out of the first three? Hell, take the entire _benefit_
album, toss out "Play In Time" and then throw in "Bouree," "We Used To
Know," and maybe "Nothing Is Easy." There, did it. And that's leaving
out some good 'uns like "Look Into the Sun" and "Reasons For Waiting."
Your comment about _Heavy Horses_ is one I don't share, but acknowledge
the validity of. You are perhaps taking on a similar viewpoint with
Sullivan, who found _HH_ and _Stormwatch_ less interesting than the
miserable _A_. It's a difference of opinion as to whether or not it is
good for a group to stick to a style of songwriting that has been
stylistically successful. Me, I loved _SFTW_, and so when _HH_ and _Sw_
came out, I loved them both just the same BECAUSE they were similar.
Someone such as yourself who perhaps has already heard enough of that
style on _SFTW_ is going to find subsequent albums of the similar vein
rather laborious. As you mentioned, though, the title track "HH" is
indeed a unique and wonderful track.
You don't care for "Acres Wild" or the stunningly beautiful (albeit
somewhat repetitive) "Moths"??? Heck, even the closer "Weathercock"
(which is _HH_'s version of "Fire At Midnight" from _SFTW_) is quite good.
Only trouble is Ian's voice is a bit rougher and coarser on _HH_, which
adds to the rustic feel but takes away a bit from the warmth and soul
found on _SFTW_.
An odd comparison, perhaps, but I always equated Tull's _SFTW_ and _HH_ to
the Beatles' _Rubber Soul_ and _Revolver_. Both excellent albums for both
groups, but _SFTW_ and _RS_ were the two warm, emotional, soulful albums,
while _HH_ and _R_ were perhaps more polished but a bit more distanced.
This comparison doesn't lend itself much beyond what I've described
though, as _Revolver_ clearly tred far more new ground artistically than
_HH_ ever did, and perhaps stands the test of time better as well.
Brian
Christopher Norman
: > |>
: > |> I would like to officially state here that _A_ is a GREAT album. It's
: > |> almost like the Tull's version of _Drama_.
: Anthony Hobbs' response to this was:
: > oh dear.
: I agree with Hobbs. _A_ is an astonishingly miserable album,
IYO.
one that
: for me essentially brought Jethro Tull to an end. Wretched doesn't even
: begin to describe it - hell, it was IA's solo album for most of the way,
: and he just totally tossed out three of the pillar band members that
: comprised the better part of the '70s, and with no explanation! Tull were
: doing so well: _SftW_, _Heavy Horses_, and _Stormwatch_ represent a
: trilogy of sorts for me, in that each has a fairly similar feel to each
: other, although in different "settings" (wood, farm, sea). All with
: gorgeous music. Then _A_ comes along, and the death knell has sounded.
If you had bothered to listen more carefully, it would have occurred to
you that _A_ is in fact the continuation and summing up of the late 70s
trilogy. What on earth is wrong with the sinewy folkiness of "Fylingdale
Flyer", the sleek, twisting, dramatic "Black Sunday", the long,
assymmetrical melodies of "Uniform" and "Protect and Survive", the charm
of "Pine Marten's Jig", or the majesty of "And Further On" (which could
have EASILY been on _Stormwatch_, just as "Working John, Working Joe"
could have been from the mid-70s and "Fylingdale Flyer" could have been
on "Heavy Horses").
: Only _Broadsword_ "sort" of recaptures the old days, but it feels too
: polished and synthesizery to be on par with the '70s material.
I could not disagree more. _Broadsword_ is where all the soul goes out of
JT. Bland rock songs, lacking any of the experimentation, intricacy, and
melodic fertility of _A_. Only "Seal Driver" has any real lasting value.
Aside from
: _Warchild_, which is Tull's Brain Fart of the 1970's, every album from
: that decade is light years beyond _A_. I just cannot despise that album
: enough - rotten lyrics, rotten music
Well, this PROVES you haven't listened to it very much. Try taking a nice
relaxing bath to calm you down, and put on the album. LIsten to it and
evaluate it from a *musical* standpoint, instead of bashing it for not
having John Evans and David Palmer on it (which appears to be the sole
basis for the irrational hatred this album seems to draw out of Tull fans).
Honestly, Brian, aren't you the guy who said King Crimson didn't do
anything good after _Islands_? You don't like ANYTHING good!
Christopher Norman
Anthony Hobbs
> Well, I liked "Drama" but not "A" (notice I said liked - I don't think I
> could listen to it with pleasure now).
Why not?
Anthony Hobbs
In article <Pine.GSO.3.93.96071...@hamlet.uncg.edu>,
BRIAN R. AUST <bra...@hamlet.uncg.edu> wrote:
> Er... .I'm responding to my own message. The first message I got on
> this subject had Hobbs saying "oh dear,"
Your newsreader is on drugs, obviously.
> but in subsequent messages (I had
> a backlog of about 100) on the same thread, I've seen him quoted entirely
> differently, being the guy who actually liked _A_. Anthony??
That impression is entirely correct. By the way, my favourite songs on
_A_ are, so far, "Flyingdale Flyer", "Black Sunday" and "And Further On".
Anthony Hobbs
In article <4s2mq1$5u2@io>, Robin Gill <AIS...@news.salford.ac.uk> wrote:
> I heard a track from A on the radio once and was impressed so I may
> well get the CD.
Our bassist Sean claims to have seen the Tull on TV one time playing
"Black Sunday" in spacesuits, or some such. This sound familiar to anyone?
> I can't comment about Drama as I have not heard it (they dont play
> much prog stuff on the radio in the UK)
They do have second hand record shops, don't they? Buy it!
> but it apparently did not get very good critical reviews.
People who hated Yes anyway hated _Drama_. People who couldn't stand the
idea of an Anderson-less Yes also hated _Drama_. Those who'd gotten past
those two particular mental blocks had a far better opinion.
Christopher Norman
: Another guy in a later message said _Broadsword_ was the single most
: boring Tull album...
That was me.
I disagree with this statement heartily, and not one
: bit because of _Broadsword_'s merits - instead it's because there are a
: number of Tull albums which are incredibly WORSE.
True, but _A_ is not even close to being one of them.
I'd go even further
: than you and say that not only _Crest of a Knave_ and parts of _Rock
: Island_ are worse, but the ENTIRE _Rock Island_ album, as well as _Under
: Wraps_, _Catfish Rising_, _Roots to Branches_,
Oi! _RtB_ rules OK!
and _Warchild_.
Good lord! What could any rational person find to dislike about
_WarChild_? Brian, this is the same sort of hatchet job you did on
King Crimson. WHy don't you actually mention some of the things you don't
like about these albums? I've pointed out why I like _A_.
And I say
: all of this WITHOUT being a _Broadsword_ fan. I stand by the conclusion
: that it is an "acceptable" album considering it came after the purging of
: the heart of Tull and the subsequent dreaded _A_.
Read: after they changed their style for the millionth time, and offended
conservative Tull fans everywhere by not having quite as many mandolins
as before.
Christopher Norman
Christopher Norman
Eric Hermans (ehe) wrote:
: I agree but don't forget "Too old to Rock'n Roll, too young to die" that is
: also crap.
Evidence?...
Christopher Norman
Christopher Norman
Anthony Hobbs (ant...@atlantis.actrix.gen.nz) wrote:
: In article <4rsh8b$l...@nntp.ucs.ubc.ca>,
: Christopher Norman <cano...@unixg.ubc.ca> wrote:
: > I can't tell you how gratified I am to hear that. I've been the
: > _A_ equivalent of the Panthers on a.m.jethro-tull for a while, and unlike
: > _Drama_, it really *is* a great album.
: (What would an _A_ order be called? The Air Traffic Controllers, or
: Controllers for short?)
Not bad. The Hard Men (from "Crossfire", as in 'there's nothing for it
but to sit and wait/For the hard men to get me out') might be
okay...they're the gun-toting guys who're there to rescue the hostage in
that song. Somewhat appropriate. I dunno. If you're game for that sort of
thing, I'm game too. _A_ is in even worse trouble than _Drama_ ever was.
Christopher Norman
Christopher Norman
Michael Nichols (nic...@sound.net) wrote:
: BRIAN R. AUST wrote:
: >
: > Another guy in a later message said _Broadsword_ was the single most
: > bit because of _Broadsword_'s merits - instead it's because there are a
: > than you and say that not only _Crest of a Knave_ and parts of _Rock
: > Island_ are worse, but the ENTIRE _Rock Island_ album, as well as _Under
: > all of this WITHOUT being a _Broadsword_ fan. I stand by the conclusion
: > that it is an "acceptable" album considering it came after the purging of
: > the heart of Tull and the subsequent dreaded _A_.
: > Brian
: You don't like synthesisers much, do you?
: I am a huge Eddie Jobson fan, thank you very much, and I feel his contributions to A
: were a huge leap forward for Tull. The subsequent tour only pointed up the plusses EJ
: brought to Tull. Unfortunately, due to his not wanting to be in a group at the time, he
: was only a special guest and wasn't on Broadsword.
: Don't down Tull's 80's output because there ain't enough acoustic instrumentation. IMHO
: that's the only difference twixt the LPs you mention.
Yes! Finally, someone who's really listened, and who gets it!
Christopher Norman
Christopher Norman
Jeff Glatt (jgl...@servtech.com) wrote:
: On the other hand, A did have some remarkably talented musicians
: involved with it. The problem was the musical composition. It was too
: simple and bland.
Explain to me please what is "simple and bland" about the material and
arrangements of "Fylingdale FLyer", "Protect and Survive", "Uniform",
"Pine Marten's JIg", and "Batteries".
: Hey, I like Warchild. Again, this has some very appealing music on it.
: Sure, it has some throwaways like "Bungle in the Jungle", which while
: not totally unlistenable, are rather unchallenging. But it also has
: some very interesting tunes such as the title track and "Sea Lion".
: And I always did like the lyrics to "Skating Away".
: If there ever was a weak link in the 70's, it would have to be "Too
: Old to Rock and Roll", and even then, "Quiz Kid" alone makes it all
: worthwhile
As do "Salamander", the title track, "Crazed Institution", and "Pied Piper".
Christopher Norman
Christopher Norman
Richard Barnes (ric...@sandyrig.demon.co.uk) wrote:
: In article <4s4p2p$6...@murphy2.servtech.com>, Jeff Glatt
: <jgl...@servtech.com> writes
: >>I would like to officially state here that _A_ is a GREAT album. It's
: >>almost like the Tull's version of _Drama_.
: >
: >like "Batteries not Included". A few other songs are pleasant, though
: >otherwise not particularly notable. But it's a far cry from "Passion
: >Play", "Thick as a Brick", or "Songs from the Wood".
: >
: >Admit it. You're just trying to shock people. Next you're going to
: >tell us that "Civilian", "3 of a Perfect Pair", and "And then there
: >were 3" are great recordings representing some of the best of their
: >respective bands. (I just don't know why it didn't occur to you that
: >an even better way to shock people would be to proclaim "Metal Machine
: >Music" as the pinnacle of progressive rock)
: >
: Hey - this sounds like a good theme! How about adding ELP's Love Beach,
: Pink Floyd's Final Cut, Oldfield's Earth Moving and Caravan's Back to
: Front to the list of 'best ever' farts.
For crying out loud, there's no comparison between _Love Beach_, a tired
bit of fluff with no apparent effort or creativity put into it, and _A_,
a challenging collection of complex, interesting tunes.
Christopher Norman
Richard Barnes
In article <4s9ldn$l...@nntp.ucs.ubc.ca>, Christopher Norman
<cano...@unixg.ubc.ca> writes
Calm down Chris - I was referring to the last paragraph - I rather like
A. Oh I just though of another - Nektar's 'Down to Earth'
Steven Sullivan
Richard Barnes (ric...@sandyrig.demon.co.uk) wrote:
: In article <4s4p2p$6...@murphy2.servtech.com>, Jeff Glatt
: <jgl...@servtech.com> writes
: >>I would like to officially state here that _A_ is a GREAT album. It's
: >>almost like the Tull's version of _Drama_.
: >
: > "A" is better than Drama. (I don't like the latter at all). I really
: >like "Batteries not Included". A few other songs are pleasant, though
: >otherwise not particularly notable. But it's a far cry from "Passion
: >Play", "Thick as a Brick", or "Songs from the Wood".
: >
: >Admit it. You're just trying to shock people. Next you're going to
: >tell us that "Civilian", "3 of a Perfect Pair", and "And then there
: >were 3" are great recordings representing some of the best of their
: >respective bands. (I just don't know why it didn't occur to you that
: >an even better way to shock people would be to proclaim "Metal Machine
: >Music" as the pinnacle of progressive rock)
: >
: Hey - this sounds like a good theme! How about adding ELP's Love Beach,
: Pink Floyd's Final Cut, Oldfield's Earth Moving and Caravan's Back to
: Front to the list of 'best ever' farts.
OK. Pink FLoyd's FInal Cut is one of their best albums. Now go open the
window.
Jeff Glatt
>:The problem was the musical composition. It was too simple and bland.
>
>Explain to me please what is "simple and bland" about the material and
>arrangements of "Fylingdale FLyer", "Protect and Survive", "Uniform",
>"Pine Marten's JIg", and "Batteries".
Well, I noted that I liked "Batteries Not Included". It had some neat
syncopation, and a more complex, carefully worked-out arrangement. I
also liked some instrumental parts in "Black Sunday".
But on the whole, the album is plagued by simple A-B-A-C-A-B song
structures (or other simple verse-chorus combos), not very inventive
chord, key, meter, nor even tempo changes, and arrangements that
aren't all that complex and sound like basic "jamming" (ie, there
aren't very many complex, worked out parts. It simply sounds like the
musicians improvised their way through most of it). That's what is
simple and bland about it
Michael Julian Topper
sull...@gwis2.circ.gwu.edu (Steven Sullivan) wrote:
>OK. Pink FLoyd's FInal Cut is one of their best albums.
To retards, I suppose...
Michael
BRIAN R. AUST
On Sat, 13 Jul 1996, Michael Nichols wrote:
> You don't like synthesisers much, do you?
> I am a huge Eddie Jobson fan, thank you very much, and I feel his contributions to A
> were a huge leap forward for Tull. The subsequent tour only pointed up the plusses EJ
>
> Don't down Tull's 80's output because there ain't enough acoustic instrumentation. IMHO
> that's the only difference twixt the LPs you mention. I happen to like everything from
> Songs from the Wood to Crest of a Knave. I liked Passion Play, silly as it was.
> So I'm not speaking from a total vacuum.
You're probably right about the synthesizers. Maybe in another life
where the first Tull album I was exposed to was _Crest of a Knave_ then
yeah, perhaps I'd be a bit more accepting. But the reality is that my
very first albums were _Minstrel_, _Songs FTW_, _Stormwatch_, and
_Aqualung_. _Stormwatch_ probably comes closest to that synthy sounds
that persists throughout the '80s, and I liked it on that one album. I
think I could have stomached it all better had Tull continued slowly and
gradually with the synths that started on _Stormwatch_. They were easing
me into them, and then WHAM three guys get the boot, Ian does a solo album
and now not only is the music entirely changed, but (and even more sadly)
gone also are Ian's exquisitly British allegories and humour, soft
whimsical tunes, and overtly personal lyrics.
_Minstrel_ is the high point of Tull for me. It doesn't get any better
than "Baker St. Muse" and "One White Duck." But as you mentioned, they
did some weird stuff on _APP_ and to a lesser extent _TaaB_, and I loved
both of those too.
So I guess it's more than just the synths that separate the albums. To
me there's less soul on the '80s albums, and most of all it was just too
blunt. _A_ would be a perfectly acceptable album had it been released in
1990 after ten years of albums between _Stormwatch_ and itself that eased
us into that style. But I'd still love _SFTW_ and _HH_ more...
Brian
BRIAN R. AUST
On 14 Jul 1996, Christopher Norman wrote:
> If you had bothered to listen more carefully, it would have occurred to
> you that _A_ is in fact the continuation and summing up of the late 70s
> trilogy. What on earth is wrong with the sinewy folkiness of "Fylingdale
> Flyer", the sleek, twisting, dramatic "Black Sunday", the long,
> assymmetrical melodies of "Uniform" and "Protect and Survive", the charm
> of "Pine Marten's Jig", or the majesty of "And Further On" (which could
> have EASILY been on _Stormwatch_, just as "Working John, Working Joe"
> could have been from the mid-70s and "Fylingdale Flyer" could have been
> on "Heavy Horses").
Well, read my response that I just wrote a few minutes ago. You'll see
that I did listen to it again, and while my opinion hasn't changed much,
the beginning of the album is by far the "best" part of the album, and the
tracks you've just mentioned: "Fylingdale," "WJ-WJ", and "Black Sunday"
ARE those tracks. And yes, "And Further On" is decent. Unfortunately,
it's not enough to save the album...
> : Only _Broadsword_ "sort" of recaptures the old days, but it feels too
> : polished and synthesizery to be on par with the '70s material.
>
> I could not disagree more. _Broadsword_ is where all the soul goes out of
> JT. Bland rock songs, lacking any of the experimentation, intricacy, and
> melodic fertility of _A_. Only "Seal Driver" has any real lasting value.
Agreed with "Seal Driver." But you don't like "Slow Marching Band" or
"Broadsword?" And "Cheerio" is pleasant, if a bit tame. But the whole
album is a welcome respite from _A_, although it was a short-lived one at
that.
> Well, this PROVES you haven't listened to it very much. Try taking a nice
> relaxing bath to calm you down, and put on the album. LIsten to it and
> evaluate it from a *musical* standpoint, instead of bashing it for not
> having John Evans and David Palmer on it (which appears to be the sole
> basis for the irrational hatred this album seems to draw out of Tull fans).
Not the sole basis at all. I couldn't state whether or not I'd hate
the album just as much had those guys been on it, because that would be a
logical impossiblity - they wouldn't do it. Don't get me wrong - your
idea of taking a bath and judging its musical worth is a good one. But in
this special instance, you have to go beyond just musical value. You
CANNOT just rip away half of a band (the members who were often
responsible for the English touches of the band, along with Ian) and
pretend like everything's all fine and dandy. What the hell would've
happened had Genesis decided to just dump Gabriel, Hackett, and Banks back
in 1972, and made something like _Duke_ in 1973? _Duke_ isn't abysmal in
its own right, and it's moderately listenable given that its 1980 release
date is far enough removed from _Nursery Cryme_. But put _Duke_ in 1973
following _Foxtrot_ with half the important members purged??? All Genesis
fans would hate _DUke_ too! There's a reason for this. Music isn't just
about musical value - it has to do with continuity, band members, and
logical followups. Too nasty a jar like that is going to leave a sour
taste in many mouths, regardless of a music's merit.
> Honestly, Brian, aren't you the guy who said King Crimson didn't do
> anything good after _Islands_? You don't like ANYTHING good!
I automatically infer a ":-)" with that at least for friendliness, even
if you were serious (which I'll bet you were). :-)
Youchers.... no I wouldn't say anything like you just said there.
You're probably recalling my lament that _LTIA_ contained alot of
"noodling" and that '80s Crimson tried to be too 3rd-wordly to be
eminently enjoyable.
But hell... _S&BB_ is fascinating, and _Red_ is brilliant. And I
enjoy the '90s Crimson in it's own way, even if I don't feel the '80s
incarnation was all that great....
Me like nothing good? Nah! I still get goosebumps listening to
Anglagard's "Jordrok" after thousands of listens and Amazing Blondel's
_England_ album is stunning. Give the latter a look-see - it's on the
Si-Wan Korean label.
Brian
Steven Sullivan
Jeff Glatt (jgl...@servtech.com) wrote:
: >:The problem was the musical composition. It was too simple and bland.
The first tune has an interesting arrangement (but not an interesting
title, I guess: I can't recall it now). Pine MArten's Jig is as
un-simple and un-bland an odd-time workout as anything Tull ever produced.
So that's two more tunes, making four, about a sides worth. Not too bad.
Steven Sullivan
Michael Julian Topper (mto...@ucla.edu) wrote:
: sull...@gwis2.circ.gwu.edu (Steven Sullivan) wrote:
: To retards, I suppose...
: Michael
is this the sad state to which UCLA has fallen?
Jeff Glatt
>>: >Admit it. You're just trying to shock people. Next you're going to
>>: >tell us that "Civilian", "3 of a Perfect Pair", and "And then there
>>: >were 3" are great recordings representing some of the best of their
>>: >respective bands. (I just don't know why it didn't occur to you that
>>: >an even better way to shock people would be to proclaim "Metal Machine
>>: >Music" as the pinnacle of progressive rock)
>>: >
>>: Hey - this sounds like a good theme! How about adding ELP's Love Beach,
>>: Pink Floyd's Final Cut, Oldfield's Earth Moving and Caravan's Back to
>>: Front to the list of 'best ever' farts.
>Oh I just though of another - Nektar's 'Down to Earth'
How about Renaissance recordings after "Song for All Seasons"?
BRIAN R. AUST
On Sat, 13 Jul 1996, Jeff Glatt wrote:
> >_A_ is an astonishingly miserable album, one that
> >for me essentially brought Jethro Tull to an end. Wretched doesn't even
> >begin to describe it
>
> It's not *that* bad. There are a few pleasant moments.
>
I listened to it again (as I usually do with albums that I slam and
others defend in response). Somehow this usually works best for me. If I
can't get it for myself, if others show where the values lie and what
personal meaning an album holds for them, I usually see the light not too
far away. That's why I love the rmp, because that's what we're here for.
Unfortunately, I'm still waiting for something to happen with _A_. But I
have figured out that the best part of the album is the beginning. The
first three or four tracks are definitely above the rest of the lot. But
"4WD"???
> And Jethro Tull aren't yet at an end. "Roots and Branches" has
> reaffirmed that there's still life left in this band. (Maybe you gave
> up too quickly? Definitely go give it a listen).
Yes, I definitely gave up too quick on this one. Several people have
commented that it's their best album since at least UnderWraps. Yeah....
_Roots and Branches_ definitely has another chance coming.
> Yes, it's unfortunate that those musicians were let go, particularly
> David Palmer whom I consider to be one of the best arrangers in a rock
> setting, because they're a talented lot, and had gotten to the point
> where they were making very worthy contributions to composition and
> arranging.
Is there ANY clue why this atrocity happened? I mean, that _20 Years_
box set blithely comments that Ian started a solo album, and then, when he
realized that it was more of a group effort than just him, well, hey,
it'll be the next Tull album. "And so, in effect, Barrie Barlow, David
Palmer, etc. were effectively gone from the band." HUH????/ WHa??????
These guys were on all of the great albums of the '70s starting with
_Minstrel_ or so, and now, because Ian feels his solo album wasn't really
just him, that these guys are just gone? Just like that??? There MUST
have been some sort of political something or other going on.... Any
ideas???
> On the other hand, A did have some remarkably talented musicians
> involved with it. The problem was the musical composition. It was too
> simple and bland.
Quite possibly. Hadn't really considered it like that before. The
product tasted like crap, and so I figured the musicians who did it were
at fault. But yeah, it WAS Ian's solo thing to begin with, so my judgment
re Jobson is perhaps a bit harsh. _A_ was just too much of a slam in the
face with a slab of concrete, especially since the previous 3 albums were
SO similar and Tull was sort of "coasting." You'd never see _A_ coming
from ten miles away....
Sigh... I remember that _A_ was the hardest album for me to buy. I
had every Tull album prior to it save for the debut, plus I had
_Broadsword_, which was respectable, and the _20 Years_ set. _A_ was that
one missing piece of the puzzle from 1980. I remember wondering what it
would sound like, bridging the three year gap between _SW_ and _BatB_.
Took me awhile to find it. I tried calling and visting at least 25 record
stores within a one or two hour radius, and nobody had it. I finally
found a Camelot records way the hell out and made the 2.5 hour drive JUST
for the _A_ album. I was so excited! And the cover looked so mysterious,
I figured it was the "fourth album of the trilogy" so to speak: from
forest, to country, to sea, to space. I put the disc in the player,
heaved a sigh of relief, and sat back to enjoy the ride.
But then:
"There sits a Japanese toy / And I like it
See the name on the wrapping / Can't read yet but I know
it's meant for me (lucky boy)"
Waves of nausea started over me. But the nightmare had just begun.
"Got a car for you - it's a real steal.
Cleaned it right down - new brakes, clutch, and here's the hook
Yes, it's a 4WD (low ratio)"
Boys, it just don't get no worse than this!
> And exquisite lyrics. Ian really excels at depicting nature.
You said it. I concur 100%.
> >Then _A_ comes along, and the death knell has sounded.
>
> Boy, you really have it in for this recording.
When Tull has spoiled you by creating some of the best music ever
recorded with _Minstrel_, _SFTW_, _APP_, and _HH_, and then gives you a
matter of months to deal with hacking the band in half and creating a
keyboardy monster with shameful lyrics (even if the bland style wasn't
Jobson's fault, as it's all the same to the unsuspecting record buyer of
1980), well, I guess one just starts pointing fingers, and _A_ is the
obvious scapegoat <grin>
> >Only _Broadsword_ "sort" of recaptures the old days, but it feels too
> >polished and synthesizery to be on par with the '70s material.
>
> I think that Broadsword has some very, very nice moments. It's not
> "Passion Play", "Thick as a Brick", or "Songs from the Wood", but it
> has real value.
Again, you put it better than I did. I agree 100%. A unique album by
every count, even if it wasn't their best. Stands by itself proudly.
> Hey, I like Warchild. Again, this has some very appealing music on it.
> Sure, it has some throwaways like "Bungle in the Jungle", which while
> not totally unlistenable, are rather unchallenging. But it also has
> some very interesting tunes such as the title track and "Sea Lion".
> And I always did like the lyrics to "Skating Away".
Well, "Skating Away..." is going to be the obvious exception <grin>
especially considering it's really part of _APP_ (along with the other
good track, "Only Solitaire"). The brass seemed to give Tull a bit of an
identity crisis, akin to what happened to Pink Floyd about five years
earlier on _Atom Heart Mother_.
> If there ever was a weak link in the 70's, it would have to be "Too
> Old to Rock and Roll", and even then, "Quiz Kid" alone makes it all
> worthwhile
I disagree here, although I know I'm outnumbered, and probably for a
reason. I agree that it pales compared to its predecessor (Minstrel) and
it's follower (SFTW), and hence represents a bit of a valley, but the
autobiographical work with accompanying cartoon sits well with me, and
tracks like "Chequered Flag," the title track, "Salamander" (despite the
blatant ripoff of ColdWindtoValhalla), and "From a Deadbeat to an Old
Greaser" make this album a winner. I find "Quiz Kid" to be a
middle-of-the-road track, weaker than the four I just mentioned, but
better than something like, say, "Taxi Grab" or "Big Dipper."
I still maintain that _WarChild_ was the bomb of the '70s, and that, now
that I think of it, _TOtRaR-TYtD_ was the second worst. Wow.... that
just goes to show how high Tull's quality really was.
I was listening to _Benefit_ last night. I just CANNOT get over how
incredible that first track, "With You There to Help Me" really is. What
a tune. Easily their most psychedelic album.
Brian
Christopher Norman
Jeff Glatt (jgl...@servtech.com) wrote:
: >:The problem was the musical composition. It was too simple and bland.
: >
: >Explain to me please what is "simple and bland" about the material and
: >arrangements of "Fylingdale FLyer", "Protect and Survive", "Uniform",
: >"Pine Marten's JIg", and "Batteries".
: Well, I noted that I liked "Batteries Not Included". It had some neat
: syncopation, and a more complex, carefully worked-out arrangement. I
: also liked some instrumental parts in "Black Sunday".
: But on the whole, the album is plagued by simple A-B-A-C-A-B song
: structures (or other simple verse-chorus combos), not very inventive
: chord, key, meter, nor even tempo changes, and arrangements that
: aren't all that complex and sound like basic "jamming" (ie, there
: aren't very many complex, worked out parts. It simply sounds like the
: musicians improvised their way through most of it). That's what is
: simple and bland about it
This is so far from what I hear on the album...that is, every part sounds
to me to be meticulously arranged, there are plenty of innovative bits of
harmony and melody, plenty of interesting rhythmic bits and "chord, key,
meter, and tempo" changes, that I wonder if we're even talking about the
same album. Did you listen, I mean actually *listen* past "Crossfire",
which is admittedly the weak link in the _A_ chain?
Christopher Norman
Frank D. Malczewski
In article <4sedhj$b...@cronkite.seas.gwu.edu>,
Actually, it looks like things are starting to look up for them...
--
--
Frank Malczewski (f...@wlv.iipo.gtegsc.com)
BRIAN R. AUST
On 14 Jul 1996, Christopher Norman wrote:
> : If there ever was a weak link in the 70's, it would have to be "Too
> : Old to Rock and Roll", and even then, "Quiz Kid" alone makes it all
> : worthwhile
>
> As do "Salamander", the title track, "Crazed Institution", and "Pied Piper".
>
> Christopher Norman
>
Agreed, agreed, agreed, and agreed. Don't forget "Chequered Flag" and
"From a Deadbeat..." for the tearjerkers. Definitely an underrated album.
Brian
BRIAN R. AUST
On 14 Jul 1996, Christopher Norman wrote:
> BRIAN R. AUST (bra...@hamlet.uncg.edu) wrote:
> : On Thu, 11 Jul 1996, BRIAN R. AUST wrote:
>
> : Another guy in a later message said _Broadsword_ was the single most
> : boring Tull album...
>
> That was me.
OK... I was afraid of misquoting someone just because my unreliable
host has mail problems <grin>
> Oi! _RtB_ rules OK!
Jury's out for me - haven't heard it enough, and hence I retract my
inclusion of that album as being worse than Broadsword. I just know
Broadsword better, so it's familiarity, not value.
> and _Warchild_.
Never. The two best songs on that album didn't even originate with it
- they came from the original _APP_. Take away those two and now the
album REALLY blows. And THIS one I know what I'm talking about - had it
for at least six or seven years now, and have been so fascinated and
obsessed with what the hell was going on through Ian's mind that I have
played that thing to death. Tull is not brass.
> Good lord! What could any rational person find to dislike about
> _WarChild_? Brian, this is the same sort of hatchet job you did on
> King Crimson. WHy don't you actually mention some of the things you don't
> like about these albums? I've pointed out why I like _A_.
Your complaint is justified - one should always give reasons. I guess
the reason I didn't is because I've explained before in earlier threads on
the same subject in years past. But you're correct - I should re-state
those reasons for people who are just joining our show already in
progress....
> Read: after they changed their style for the millionth time, and offended
> conservative Tull fans everywhere by not having quite as many mandolins
> as before.
Ah, but there's a difference between "not having quite as many" as
before, and utterly chucking their long-held style out the window in one
fell swoop.
When Rush decided to abandon their melodic Trilogy of _2112_ through
_Hemispheres_ in favor of the "sterile techno-crap" of their '80s albums
such as _Power Windows_, _(Dis)Grace Under Pressure_, or _Hold Your Fire_,
at least they gave us some warning. At least Rush produced albums like
_Permanent Waves_ and _Moving Pictures_ to get us ready, and these two
albums still have great tracks on them.
Tull gave no such warning. Change is one thing, but a lobotomy is
quite another... otherwise, your argument against "conservative" Tull
fans would be well-taken, had Tull had a bit more subtlety than a
sledgehammer.
Brian
BRIAN R. AUST
On 14 Jul 1996, Christopher Norman wrote:
Ah, Norman... you may very well be purely asking for evidence, but it
appears as if you like that album. Perhaps we are in agreement, sir?
Brian
BRIAN R. AUST
On 14 Jul 1996, Christopher Norman wrote:
> : You don't like synthesisers much, do you?
> : I am a huge Eddie Jobson fan, thank you very much, and I feel his contributions to A
> : were a huge leap forward for Tull. The subsequent tour only pointed up the plusses EJ
> : brought to Tull. Unfortunately, due to his not wanting to be in a group at the time, he
> : was only a special guest and wasn't on Broadsword.
> : Don't down Tull's 80's output because there ain't enough acoustic instrumentation. IMHO
> : that's the only difference twixt the LPs you mention.
>
> Yes! Finally, someone who's really listened, and who gets it!
>
Read my response to him, which explains things in a bit more detail...
Christopher Norman
: > Oi! _RtB_ rules OK!
: > and _Warchild_.
But the whole bloody point of Jethro Tull is to throw in all sorts of
different styles in at the same time, with many sudden and unpredictable
changes. If you were already used to the quantum leap from _This Was_ to
_Aqualung_, and then the huge jump from _Aqualung_ to _A Passion Play_,
and then the gigantic heave-ho from _Passion Play_ to _Heavy
Horses_...the distance between _A_ and _Stormwatch_ doesn't look very
big. And anyway, this was certainly not a "long-held" style...they
started doing that faux-folk stuff in 1977 with _Songs From the Wood_,
did it on three albums in two years, and then decided to try something
different, which is just what they've always done.
: When Rush decided to abandon their melodic Trilogy of _2112_ through
: _Hemispheres_ in favor of the "sterile techno-crap" of their '80s albums
: such as _Power Windows_, _(Dis)Grace Under Pressure_, or _Hold Your Fire_,
: at least they gave us some warning. At least Rush produced albums like
: _Permanent Waves_ and _Moving Pictures_ to get us ready, and these two
: albums still have great tracks on them.
: Tull gave no such warning.
Nor have they EVER. Were you just as offended when the heavy rock album
_Aqualung_ was followed by the quasi-classical _Thick As a Brick_?
Change is one thing, but a lobotomy is
: quite another... otherwise, your argument against "conservative" Tull
: fans would be well-taken, had Tull had a bit more subtlety than a
: sledgehammer.
So, a musician shouldn't be allowed to try out different ideas without
consulting their fans and "warning" them first? I don't know...I fail to
see why a rock band should be criticised for not mollycoddling their fans.
Christopher Norman
Christopher Norman
Eric Hermans (ehe) wrote:
: Evidence, this is not a court case but just my personal opinion as all your
: replies are personal opinions.
Okay, I'll speak more plainly. Exactly what don't you like about the
songs on that album?
Christopher Norman
Eric Hermans
Evidence, this is not a court case but just my personal opinion as all your
replies are personal opinions.
I recorded the album from a friend a long time ago and after a while discovered
that I really disliked listening to it - in contrast to other Tull stuff, and
eventually deleted it and have not missed listening to it ever since as there
is so much other worthwhile prog around.
--
Eric Hermans
BRIAN R. AUST
On 14 Jul 1996, Anthony Hobbs wrote:
> That impression is entirely correct. By the way, my favourite songs on
> _A_ are, so far, "Flyingdale Flyer", "Black Sunday" and "And Further On".
OK, I'm beginning to suspect I'm not as crazy as others would have me
believe. Those are three of the better tracks I've found on the album as
well. I believe C Norman also mentioned "WJ-WJ" could be from the
mid-'70s, and he's right. The vocal harmonies and style are suggestive of
this...
Brian
Michael Julian Topper
sull...@gwis2.circ.gwu.edu (Steven Sullivan) wrote:
>: >OK. Pink FLoyd's FInal Cut is one of their best albums.
>
>: To retards, I suppose...
>is this the sad state to which UCLA has fallen?
It's much worse than you think, actually. Back in the dorms, I was the
only one who listened to anything before 1988; techno-pop reigned
supreme. It was truly depressing--I'd be trying to listen to Third or
Sell Out or Future Days and then the room next to mine would start blasting
New Order...sigh...
The Final Cut is still one of Floyd's *worst* albums, however.
Michael
mathias thallmayer
>1990 after ten years of albums between _Stormwatch_ and itself that eased
>us into that style. But I'd still love _SFTW_ and _HH_ more...
No, you're totally wrong. Tull had done complex music on PP. The albums
that followed were not exactly regressive but sort of a retrograde
sidestep. Combine them with UK (who any prog fan of that era would be
familiar with) and you've got "A". No "easing into" needed!
It's just a shame that Jobson didn't stay for a few more albums
to develop and expand the style. Then we wouldn't be having this
discussion.
--
Mathias
icono...@tarkus.ocis.temple.edu
Steven Sullivan
: > If you had bothered to listen more carefully, it would have occurred to
: > you that _A_ is in fact the continuation and summing up of the late 70s
: > trilogy. What on earth is wrong with the sinewy folkiness of "Fylingdale
: > Flyer", the sleek, twisting, dramatic "Black Sunday", the long,
: > assymmetrical melodies of "Uniform" and "Protect and Survive", the charm
: > of "Pine Marten's Jig", or the majesty of "And Further On" (which could
: > have EASILY been on _Stormwatch_, just as "Working John, Working Joe"
: > could have been from the mid-70s and "Fylingdale Flyer" could have been
: > on "Heavy Horses").
: Well, read my response that I just wrote a few minutes ago. You'll see
: that I did listen to it again, and while my opinion hasn't changed much,
: the beginning of the album is by far the "best" part of the album, and the
: tracks you've just mentioned: "Fylingdale," "WJ-WJ", and "Black Sunday"
: ARE those tracks. And yes, "And Further On" is decent. Unfortunately,
: it's not enough to save the album...
for heaven's sake, have you *listened* to 'Pine Marten's Jig'? Or is it
too far towards the end of the disc for you?
mathias thallmayer
While FF and BS are exquisite, I also love Batteries, Uniforms, Protect
and Survive. Also good are Crossfire, PM Jig, WJWJ. The only song I
really don't care for is 4WD.
--
Mathias
icono...@tarkus.ocis.temple.edu
mathias thallmayer
>before, and utterly chucking their long-held style out the window in one
>fell swoop.
Which they had done on a number of occassions before. Personally,
I wanted to see them continue in the APP style. If so, you would
never have the series that you so dearly love.
--
Mathias
icono...@tarkus.ocis.temple.edu
Christopher Norman
: > That impression is entirely correct. By the way, my favourite songs on
: > _A_ are, so far, "Flyingdale Flyer", "Black Sunday" and "And Further On".
: OK, I'm beginning to suspect I'm not as crazy as others would have me
: believe. Those are three of the better tracks I've found on the album as
: well. I believe C Norman also mentioned "WJ-WJ" could be from the
: mid-'70s, and he's right. The vocal harmonies and style are suggestive of
: this...
: Brian
They *are* all good songs, but for me side two is the real treasure.
There's little in the Tull catalogue to match the radical New
Wave/prog/weirdo Eddie Jobson-rock of stuff like "Uniform" and "Batteries
Not Included", and I think even the most conservative Tull fan should be
happy with "Pine Marten's Jig". "And Further On" is one of Anderson's
loveliest songs ever.
Christopher Norman
Michael Nichols
BRIAN R. AUST wrote:
>
> Ah, but there's a difference between "not having quite as many" as
> before, and utterly chucking their long-held style out the window in one
> fell swoop.
>
> Tull gave no such warning. Change is one thing, but a lobotomy is
> quite another... otherwise, your argument against "conservative" Tull
> fans would be well-taken, had Tull had a bit more subtlety than a
> sledgehammer.
>
> Brian
Being that "A" started out as Ian's first solo LP, I can understand the jarring change
for you. That still doesn't change the fact that it's a great album with excellent
musicianship that has always been a Tull trademark. You still seem to be ragging them
for attempting to progress. I always thought that's what "Progressive Rock" meant.
MJN
Peter Wilton
In article <4s9ldn$l...@nntp.ucs.ubc.ca>, Christopher Norman
<cano...@unixg.ubc.ca> writes
>For crying out loud, there's no comparison between _Love Beach_, a tired
>bit of fluff with no apparent effort or creativity put into it, and _A_,
>a challenging collection of complex, interesting tunes.
I have to say that I disagree completely with the convention that wrote
off Love Beach, because _Memoirs_ is as good an instrumental suite as
Emerson ever wrote. (I don't wish to defend the Lake songs on side 1.)
I'm not sure the concept worked, but I've always heard ELP's music as
"symphonic" with lyrics added as an afterthought! (It would seem that's
how Tarkus arose, for example). I note that the ELP most fans seem to
like is the more consistently heavy stuff, rather than the more
stylistically varied records. People tend to be enthusiastic about Karn
Evil 9 1st impression, much of which is the repetition of fairly "easy
listening" harmonies. There is variety of harmonic style, including a
fairly spicy style at times in _Memoirs_, which prefigures the much
denser style Emerson uses in the eighties in e.g. O little town, The
Miracle, Inferno. There is less predominance of his jazz blues harmonic
style, and a finding of his own. I wonder whether people actually don't
like him when he's being more "progressive", certainly more individual
and less conventional?
--
Peter Wilton
Jeff Glatt
>> And Jethro Tull aren't yet at an end. "Roots and Branches" has
>> reaffirmed that there's still life left in this band. (Maybe you gave
>> up too quickly? Definitely go give it a listen).
>Yes, I definitely gave up too quick on this one. Several people have
>commented that it's their best album since at least UnderWraps. Yeah....
>_Roots and Branches_ definitely has another chance coming.
Yes, I like some of "eastern flavorings" (ie, "arabic" sounding modal
lines) and particularly strong melodic lines. (I don't know why folks
are making such a big deal of Ian's voice. He sounds great here. He's
singing more melodic lines, and has developed nice phrasing and a
pleasant vibrato). The flute playing is not as flashy here as has
often been in the past, but it has a fuller tone. Maybe Martin Barre
could have cut loose a little more. He's a bit subdued, but then, I do
like the slow stuff even more than the uptempo stuff here. The
keyboard player is OK, but relies a little too much on the "synth
pads" for my tastes. Bass and drums are very good. (But I still miss
David Palmer a lot).
>Is there ANY clue why this atrocity happened? I mean, that _20 Years_
>box set blithely comments that Ian started a solo album, and then, when he
>realized that it was more of a group effort than just him, well, hey,
>it'll be the next Tull album. "And so, in effect, Barrie Barlow, David
>Palmer, etc. were effectively gone from the band."
It has been said that Ian was strongly coerced into billing "A" as a
Tull recording by the record company (who thought that A would sell a
lot better as a Tull recording than an Anderson solo). And of course,
he then had to tour to support it, billing the band as Tull, so the
"real" Tull was going to be "gone" for awhile anyway.
Speculating further, I wonder if Ian may have decided that he wanted
to work with other musicians for a change of pace. Those certainly
weren't bad musicians with whom he was playing. Maybe he thought that
this would inspire him to write better, new material, or allow him to
try music that he couldn't make with the old band due to limitations
in musicians' techniques and knowledge of musical theory. Maybe he
even thought that he could get things done quicker and easier with
"session musicians".
Ultimately, I think that he made a mistake. It would have been OK to
let the real Tull take a hiatus, and there has been some good music
made with other musicians, but let's face it, the old lineup had as
good musicians as Ian is ever going to get to play progressive rock.
He lost a lot with that decision.
>> On the other hand, A did have some remarkably talented musicians
>> involved with it. The problem was the musical composition. It was too
>> simple and bland.
>
>Quite possibly. Hadn't really considered it like that before. The
>product tasted like crap, and so I figured the musicians who did it were
>at fault. But yeah, it WAS Ian's solo thing to begin with, so my judgment
>re Jobson is perhaps a bit harsh.
It is. Jobson is tremendously talented. At his best, Jobson is hard to
beat. But "A" was hardly an example of him at his best. I find the
material to be at fault. He just wasn't given anything really complex
to play. He was relegated to adding mostly "synth pads" to relatively
straight 4/4 song structures.
> But then:
> "There sits a Japanese toy / And I like it
> See the name on the wrapping / Can't read yet but I know
> it's meant for me (lucky boy)"
> Waves of nausea started over me. But the nightmare had just begun.
Well, that's my favorite tune on A. I like the weirder stuff, and that
tune had the most unusual syncopation and keyboard parts on the
recording. It had the most unusual lyrics too.
> "Got a car for you - it's a real steal.
> Cleaned it right down - new brakes, clutch, and here's the hook
> Yes, it's a 4WD (low ratio)"
Now that's a stinker there.
>> >Only _Broadsword_ "sort" of recaptures the old days, but it feels too
>> >polished and synthesizery to be on par with the '70s material.
I'm a keyboard player. I love synths. Nothing wrong with them as far
as I'm concerned... except when they're used to play simple 4/4 ABACAB
song structures with no interesting melodic or harmonic aspects, which
was too often the case with A.
>> Hey, I like Warchild. Again, this has some very appealing music on it.
>Well, "Skating Away..." is going to be the obvious exception <grin>
>especially considering it's really part of _APP_ (along with the other
>good track, "Only Solitaire"). The brass seemed to give Tull a bit of an
>identity crisis, akin to what happened to Pink Floyd about five years
>earlier on _Atom Heart Mother_.
"Atom Heart Mother" is my favorite Floyd recording (although I'm not a
especially big Floyd fan -- I like Tull a lot more). I don't think
that particular instrumentation is the problem. (My favorite recording
is probably Zappa's Studio Tan, and that has all kinds of
instrumentation on it). It's really the material -- the musical
composition, and the arrangement to a lesser extent. When I don't like
certain recordings, it's almost always because of simple, weak,
uninteresting composition and arranging, not because of
instrumentation. (In fact, Warchild prominently features an instrument
that is often used in music that I hate -- an accordian. Here, John
Evans proves how good composition can make an instrument sound "good".
I really like the accordian on Warchild, and it's one of my favorite
aspects of the recording).
>> If there ever was a weak link in the 70's, it would have to be "Too
>> Old to Rock and Roll", and even then, "Quiz Kid" alone makes it all
>> worthwhile
>
>I disagree here, although I know I'm outnumbered, and probably for a
>reason. I agree that it pales compared to its predecessor (Minstrel) and
>it's follower (SFTW), and hence represents a bit of a valley, but the
>autobiographical work with accompanying cartoon sits well with me, and
>tracks like "Chequered Flag," the title track, "Salamander" (despite the
>blatant ripoff of ColdWindtoValhalla), and "From a Deadbeat to an Old
>Greaser" make this album a winner.
Oh, I forgot about "Greaser". Excellent song. Really nice chord
changes with a few surprises. I love the sax solo. I certainly don't
hate the recording. I like it better than a number of the 80's
material. But I like everything else in the 70's (from Thick onward)
better.
>I still maintain that _WarChild_ was the bomb of the '70s, and that, now
>that I think of it, _TOtRaR-TYtD_ was the second worst. Wow.... that
>just goes to show how high Tull's quality really was.
A most underrated band among progressive listeners. It appears that
many folks never got past the "hit singles" (including Aqualung) to
discover how many gems there are there
Michael Nichols
Michael Julian Topper wrote:
>
> sull...@gwis2.circ.gwu.edu (Steven Sullivan) wrote:
>
> >OK. Pink FLoyd's FInal Cut is one of their best albums.
>
> To retards, I suppose...
>
Jeez, what an insensitive twit! Listen to the F@#$@%$n' Lyrics will you?
MJN
Michael Julian Topper
sull...@gwis2.circ.gwu.edu (Steven Sullivan) wrote:
>: The Final Cut is still one of Floyd's *worst* albums, however.
>
>
>to cretins, I suppose.
In that case, I'd much rather be a cretin than a retard. ;)
Michael
Michael Julian Topper
Michael Nichols <nic...@sound.net> wrote:
>> >OK. Pink FLoyd's FInal Cut is one of their best albums.
>>
>> To retards, I suppose...
>
>Jeez, what an insensitive twit! Listen to the F@#$@%$n' Lyrics will you?
That's actually my problem with the album--a little *too* much emphasis
on the lyrics (which are heavy-handed and indulgent, anyway), and almost
no emphasis on making good music...all IMO, of course.
Michael
Jason Young
I have read some of the battle about Tull's album _A_. I will admit
as a whole this album didn't turn me on. I have it on LP and I don't have a
phonograph at the moment so I haven't heard _A_ in ages. I do remember that
it did have much more synths than I was use to. I for one don't find
_Aqualung_ as one of my favorite albums where I find _Stand Up_, and
_Benefit_ as a couple of Tull's best. So as you could emagine that _A_ was
a shock. Of course I wasn't turned on by _Minstrel..._, or _SFTW_ on first
listen. I have found that some of Tull's albums take some time for me to
digest and begin to enjoy. For my vote of worst Tull I would say _Under
Wraps_ is my vote, but every once in a while I can find good in that album
also.
Lastly I have found _Roots to Branches_ to be a refreshing album,
and though sometimes quite strait forward lyrically, I find the album just
as complex as anything Ian has produced. I have to also fight against the
opinions about _War Child_, I found that this album fit together well except
for maybe it's most popular track "Bungle In The Jungle", but I will admit
that I am biased since it was the first Tull album that I owned.
Peace,
Slick
Richard Barnes
In article <4sh1ja$h...@cronkite.seas.gwu.edu>, Steven Sullivan
<sull...@gwis2.circ.gwu.edu> writes
>
>: >: >OK. Pink FLoyd's FInal Cut is one of their best albums.
>: >
>: >: To retards, I suppose...
>
>
>: It's much worse than you think, actually. Back in the dorms, I was the
>: only one who listened to anything before 1988; techno-pop reigned
>: supreme. It was truly depressing--I'd be trying to listen to Third or
>: Sell Out or Future Days and then the room next to mine would start blasting
>: New Order...sigh...
>
>
>
>to cretins, I suppose.
>
its main input and who left over it) - but if you like it who's to say
Floyd are right?
--
Richard Barnes (ric...@sandyrig.demon.co.uk)
"Close to the Edge"
BRIAN R. AUST
On Wed, 17 Jul 1996, Michael Nichols wrote:
> Being that "A" started out as Ian's first solo LP, I can understand the jarring change
> for you. That still doesn't change the fact that it's a great album with excellent
> musicianship that has always been a Tull trademark. You still seem to be ragging them
> for attempting to progress. I always thought that's what "Progressive Rock" meant.
>
> MJN
No, that's not why I was miffed about _A_. I don't consider myself an
overly "conservative" or "reactionary" Tull fan, primarily because I have
embraced most changes they have embarked upon. Whether it was doing
almost pure blues work on the debut, to a rather psychedelic effort on
their third LP, _BEnefit_, to the religion album of _Aqualung_, to the
extended forays and metaphors mixed between jarring instrumental passages
of TAAB and APP, to the quieter acoustic material from '75-'79... each
change I have welcomed with no problem. And there's LOTS of people that
don't like APP for all sorts of musical reasons.
So no, it wasn't that they were trying to be progressive that miffed
me. Band members came and went in the earlier days, but usually one
change per album when they happened, and usually for a reason that the
departing member held. This wasn't the case in '80. Someone here quoted
the 20 years booklet by saying that they weren't kicked out, but rather
since the album couldn't rightly be called a solol album, then it became
the next Jethro album, and so presto, here's the new members! Why??? I
mean, fine, so Jobson and company do the _A_ album. Why must that be a
permanent change? The 20 years book says "so the other three were
effectively out of the band." By whose dictation?? Nobody claims
responsibility....
This thread was the first I ever heard about Barriemore wanting to
leave because of Glascock's death. This is the first encouraging info
I've heard about the situation, but it doesn't explain Evans or Palmer.
Hell, just in the past year ('79s Stormwatch) Palmer did that entire
"Elegy" arrangement himself. Maybe Ian hated his guts out of jealousy or
something... <grin>
I think Sullivan, Norman, and others here are going to be better at having
more objective opinions re the lobotomy of the group and the _A_ album
because they are judging the music as it is worth, as it stands on its
own. I'm not sure I'm able to hold this valid a viewpoint because the
band members and the album history is too ingrained in me, and so I'd
probably hold a grudge against any album that followed Stormwatch in the
manner that _A_ did.
Brian
BRIAN R. AUST
On 16 Jul 1996, mathias thallmayer wrote:
> BRIAN R. AUST (bra...@hamlet.uncg.edu) wrote:
> > Ah, but there's a difference between "not having quite as many" as
> >before, and utterly chucking their long-held style out the window in one
> >fell swoop.
>
> Which they had done on a number of occassions before. Personally,
> I wanted to see them continue in the APP style. If so, you would
> never have the series that you so dearly love.
True. I, too, would've liked to have seen another effort in the
direction of APP, but the response was so negative that Ian really felt
put off by the whole thing. And especially considering that _Warchild_
was his response, I wish he'd just forged ahead and done more along the
old lines. But hey, like you said, the albums of '75-'79 never would've
happened (particularly Minstrel and TotRaR, since parts of both of those
albums were direct responses to the backlash against APP) had the press
not been so negative. What I wouldn't give to be able to see Tull on the
Minstrel tour...
Brian
Christopher Norman
Peter Wilton (pj...@beaufort.demon.co.uk) wrote:
: In article <4s9ldn$l...@nntp.ucs.ubc.ca>, Christopher Norman
I like "Pirates" a lot, and I think that's some of his best music, but
"Memoirs" is too uneven for me. The first section is nothing
special...starts off with a couple of chords and a mawkish little
melody, which is actually sort of promising, but then it devolves into
something plodding and dull with no real melody and Greg bellowing like a
walrus. The other parts are all nice, but that's about as far as I can go
in praising it. It doesn't change my belief that ELP were tired and worn
out and pretty useless by the time they came to record it...the
production on "Memoirs" is pretty boring, with lots of empty space and
terrible-sounding drums, and not nearly enough work was done on the
arrangements or on making the suite hang together well.
Christopher Norman
Matthew Martens
On Jul 18, 1996 00:26:02 in article <Re: Jethro Tull>,
Yeah, you're right, but it certainly doesn't deserve its rep. _Love
Beach_ is just about everybody's favorite whipping post, and side 2, at
least, is simply not all that horrible.
--Matthew
BRIAN R. AUST
Update on _A_ situation to follow, but first...
On 16 Jul 1996, Christopher Norman wrote:
> : Ah, but there's a difference between "not having quite as many" as
> : before, and utterly chucking their long-held style out the window in one
> : fell swoop.
>
> But the whole bloody point of Jethro Tull is to throw in all sorts of
> different styles in at the same time, with many sudden and unpredictable
> changes. If you were already used to the quantum leap from _This Was_ to
> _Aqualung_, and then the huge jump from _Aqualung_ to _A Passion Play_,
> and then the gigantic heave-ho from _Passion Play_ to _Heavy
> Horses_...the distance between _A_ and _Stormwatch_ doesn't look very
> big. And anyway, this was certainly not a "long-held" style...they
> started doing that faux-folk stuff in 1977 with _Songs From the Wood_,
> did it on three albums in two years, and then decided to try something
> different, which is just what they've always done.
>
Maybe, but never by hacking the band in half with a hatchet. I think
one of the reasons why I (and many others) have enjoyed the transitions
that you mentioned above from '68-'79 is because they often made sense,
and the band was still readily identifiable as Tull because no more than
one band member or so ever disappeared from one album to the next.
Besides Ian, only ONE person was brought over from Stormwatch and that was
Martin Barre. Do you think Ian and Martin alone could have created all of
those albums from the '70s? No... So I think it makes sense that when
the core remains, a transition in style will go over much better with
older fans than when Ian keeps Martin and shoves everyone else overboard.
(yes, this last bit was melodramatic - just a bit of humour, not intended
to merit serious scrutiny <g>)
> : Tull gave no such warning.
>
> Nor have they EVER. Were you just as offended when the heavy rock album
> _Aqualung_ was followed by the quasi-classical _Thick As a Brick_?
No, but many were. There were plenty of blues fans in England that
loved Tull for the first few albums and then thought they "sold out" to
the artistic pretensions of the day which we at rmp love so much. But for
every one of us who loved TAAB, there's another blues player over across
the pond, sts, who despises the change and considers _Stand Up_ or
_Benefit_ to be the last true Tull album.
> So, a musician shouldn't be allowed to try out different ideas without
> consulting their fans and "warning" them first? I don't know...I fail to
> see why a rock band should be criticised for not mollycoddling their fans.
Well, it IS the fans who buy the albums, no? But seriously, you're
right, I don't think a band should mollycoddle their fans like that all
the time. And Ian doesn't really have to answer anybody when it comes to
his decision-making process. But still, let's examine where _TAAB_ took
us and compare it to where _A_ led us:
following TAAB: Passion Play, Warchild (which you like), Minstrel,
SFTW, Stormwatch
following A: Broadsword, Under Wraps, Crest of a Knave, Rock Island
I'll take the first group of albums, thank you. Are you saying you'd
rather have the second group?? You've already taken a shot at Broadsword,
and Under Wraps is almost universally regarded as their worst-ever album.
Crest might be OK, but Rock Island isn't. These are the albums that
resulted from _A_. I'll take the first group, thanks...
NOW.... to update on _A_. I've done more than just take a bath and
listen to it carefully. I've played the entire thing through 12, count
'em TWELVE times since this thread started, whilst working at home (I'm a
telecommuter...)
May it show on the record that I have consumed my helping of humble
pie, and my thanks is extended to Norman, Sullivan, and others who took
the effort on _A_'s behalf. I now know _A_ far better than ever before,
and I think with the help of this group I have finally found "closure" so
to speak when it comes to this album. Although it is no Minstrel, it
isn't supposed to be, and I've tried diligently to take it for what it is,
and it has grown alot on me. It has essentially been distilled down to
two distinct parts - six songs completely cut it for me, and I enjoy each
one of them, whereas the other four have actually gotten worse with each
listen. The breakdown:
Crossfire: Thumbs UP, despite simple time sig
Fylingdale Flyer: Thumbs UP, and I knew I was warming up to
_A_ when I truly found myself humming this thing in my head on my way to
Chapel HIll this morning.
Working John, Joe: Thumbs UP, helps bridge gap between
Stormwatch and A with its older Tull sound
Black SUnday: Thumbs UP, listening to percussion helped
on this one
now the bad part - Protect and Survive, Batteries Not Included, Uniform,
and 4WD low ratio. All four of these just continue to make my skin crawl.
The lyrics to Batteries and 4WD are particularly abysmal.
Pine Marten's Jig: Thumbs UP. Yes, Surly, I DID make it to the end
of the disc, way back in college when I first heard this album. This song
is a no-brainer, so I thought it went without saying. But for the record,
yeah, it's a complex little number, ain't it?
And Further On: Thumbs UP.
So that's six out of ten with a good showing. And hey, it's not easy to
say you don't like an album for whatever reason, because you're going to
offend SOMEONE's sensibilities, whereas supporting an album is a much
easier task. BUt I was not trying to do a hatchet job on _A_ "ala KC" - I
just truly and honestly couldn't pass that hurdle from 1980, because my
Tull sensibilities were so firmly rooted in material prior to '79. And I
wouldn't have seen much good from _A_ if it weren't for this group, so pat
yourselves on the back and accept my gratitude because any time we can
turn a fellow fan onto a great album, it's a positive thing.
Hell, I just turned my ELP-crazy friend (who had never heard of King
Crimson before) onto _ITCOTCK_ and _Red_. The look in his eyes was
unmistakable and great to see. You shoulda seen him when (after YEARS of
hearing Lake sing Karn Evil 9) he finally hears Lake doing the title track
to _ITCOTCK_ and "Epitaph." Heh.... "holy shit, that's a YOUNG Greg
Lake!!" And a thin one, I might add... :-0
Brian
NP: "Black Sunday" no, really??
JSGalvics
In article <TpUR1BAk...@sandyrig.demon.co.uk>, Richard Barnes
<ric...@sandyrig.demon.co.uk> writes:
>>: The Final Cut is still one of Floyd's *worst* albums, however.
>>
>>
>>to cretins, I suppose.
>>
>Well, actually the band themselves hate it (except for Waters who was
>its main input and who left over it) - but if you like it who's to say
>Floyd are right?
Is there some sort of "support group" for people who actually like this
album?
I know I find it much more appealing than _The Wall_ No, not up to a
_DSOM_ or _Animals_ for later Floyd, besides, I've always found it
interesting that in the Movie version of The Wall, you can hear snippits
from this album and Rog's 1st solo.
babymash
sull...@gwis2.circ.gwu.edu (Steven Sullivan) writes:
> BRIAN R. AUST (bra...@hamlet.uncg.edu) wrote:
> : > In article <4rppj1$9...@atlantis.atlantis.actrix.gen.nz>, anthony@atlantis
> : > |>
> : > |> I would like to officially state here that _A_ is a GREAT album. It's
> : > |> almost like the Tull's version of _Drama_.
>
> : Anthony Hobbs' response to this was:
>
> : > oh dear.
>
>
> : I agree with Hobbs. _A_ is an astonishingly miserable album, one that
> : for me essentially brought Jethro Tull to an end. Wretched doesn't even
> : begin to describe it - hell, it was IA's solo album for most of the way,
> : and he just totally tossed out three of the pillar band members that
> : comprised the better part of the '70s, and with no explanation!
>
>
>
> I just listened to it again yesterday, as it happens. Excellent bass
> work, interesting blending of Jobson into the Tull sound. It's far from
> 'wretched', whatever the band politics were. More interesting that
> 'Stormwatch' and 'Heavy Horses', IMO.
>
Jethro Dull,you are all wasting your time,the greatest sound ever
made was of course Cat Stevens song Banapple Gas :).
BABYMASH.
Edward Antoniu
"BRIAN R. AUST" <bra...@hamlet.uncg.edu> writes:
> This thread was the first I ever heard about Barriemore wanting to
>leave because of Glascock's death. This is the first encouraging info
>I've heard about the situation, but it doesn't explain Evans or Palmer.
>Brian
The 25th-anniversary tour programme says that Barriemore Barlow indeed
suffered a lot because of John Glascock's death, since the former was said to
have always been the closest to the latter. They received the bad news, I
think, before their last gig on their then tour, and Barriemore Barlow self
reportedly behaved like a zombie because of his inner pain during that last
gig. Barlow and Glascock were said to have intended to leave Tull and make a
band of their own, but I find myself unable now to credit the source of this
statement.
Eddie
Brian Gabel
"BRIAN R. AUST" <bra...@hamlet.uncg.edu> wrote:
> No, but many were. There were plenty of blues fans in England that
>loved Tull for the first few albums and then thought they "sold out" to
>the artistic pretensions of the day which we at rmp love so much. But for
>every one of us who loved TAAB, there's another blues player over across
>the pond, sts, who despises the change and considers _Stand Up_ or
>_Benefit_ to be the last true Tull album.
>
To tell you the truth, I like Tull's pre-TAAB material the best. I
might call _Stand Up_ their best album. And I'm more a prog fan than
blues. I don't like _Aqualung_ as much as the album's "greatness" is
tauted. Its good material, but just feels odd. But _This Was_, _Stand Up_
and _Benefit_ are awesome, even though the recordings sound like crap.
I just don't get TAAB. I mean, I like material where I can remember SOME
parts of it without hearing it, but very little of TAAB registers with
me. I'll listen to it in my car and at the end of the 40 minute spree,
I'll say "what, it's over? I don't remember anything. It didn't
register." Gentle Giant registers with me; Anglagard registers with me;
KC registers...not TAAB.
Brian
The contents of this message express only the sender's opinion.
This message does not necessarily reflect the policy or views of
my employer, Merck & Co., Inc. All responsibility for the statements
made in this Usenet posting resides solely and completely with the
sender.
Henry Potts
: >: >OK. Pink FLoyd's FInal Cut is one of their best albums.
: >
: >: To retards, I suppose...
: >is this the sad state to which UCLA has fallen?
: It's much worse than you think, actually. Back in the dorms, I was the
: only one who listened to anything before 1988; techno-pop reigned
: supreme. [...]
Trevor Horn rules! There is a Buggles b-side entitled "techno-pop":
was this the first use of the word in a song?
Henry
Steven Sullivan
Matthew Martens (lode...@usa.pipeline.com) wrote:
:
:
: Yeah, you're right, but it certainly doesn't deserve its rep. _Love
: Beach_ is just about everybody's favorite whipping post, and side 2, at
: least, is simply not all that horrible.
:
:
: --Matthew
a whipping *post* is something you'd tie a whipping *boy* to. This being
a family newsgroup I will say no more on the subject.
Steven Sullivan
Joe Bailey (7515...@CompuServe.COM) wrote:
: Passion Play is a prog masterpiece!!!! I think it blows away
: Thick as A Brick and for some reason never achieved its
: popularity.
Actaully, both albums hit the top five or ten at the time of theur
releases, I think.
Joe Bailey
Passion Play is a prog masterpiece!!!! I think it blows away
Thick as A Brick and for some reason never achieved its
melodies abound. TAAB, on the other hand, has very limited
thematic development, IMHO!
Roots to Branches was indeed vindication for these guys. I think
it was one of the suprises of 1995!
Biffyshrew
"A" from the Horses' Mouths
Ian Anderson: "After our last album [Stormwatch], I told everyone that as
far as I was concerned, Tull no longer existed. I made plans to do a solo
album, and just assumed that the band was a thing of the past. But when
the record company heard some of the things that I had been working on,
they rather casually said, 'Ian, wouldn't it be nice to release this as a
Tull album?' I was quite reticent at first, but after a bit of
arm-twisting, I finally gave in." (New York Daily News, 1980)
Eddie Jobson: "I was in the process of recruiting musicians for a solo
project of my own when Ian gave me a call from England. He said he was
working on a solo album and asked me to play on it. ... After I had
completed my tracks and returned home, I got another call to return to
England to do a photo session for the album. It was during the session at
an airfield in Oxfordshire that I found out that the record was going to
be a Jethro Tull album rather than an Ian Anderson album." (Hit Parader,
1980)
Barrie Barlow: "We did the last Tull tour, my last Tull tour, came back
and I had a meeting with Ian and we agreed to go our separate ways, shook
hands and everything. Everything was fine. I called Terry Ellis within a
couple of weeks...And he said, 'I haven't heard you sound this happy for
years'...Then the next issue of Melody Maker came out....it said 'SACKED!
SACKED! SACKED!' And I went ****** [sic] mental, as you can imagine. Ian
had sent a note of apology before it came out, and I thought, 'Hell, it
can't be that bad.' But of course it was. And David Palmer...his
daughter was at school, and the kids were taking the mickey out of her on
the playground; that's how David found out he'd been sacked from the band!
And John Evans was really shattered, you know." (A New Day #19, 1989)
John Evans: "At the end of tours we used to go our own ways and people
would get in touch with us when something was organized, like the next
album or tour. ... Around about July [1980] I got a letter through the
post. I opened it and it was a second copy, a carbon copy from a
typewriter, and it said something along the lines of...'Dear Barrie, David
and John. I'm sorry this is so rushed, but basically Melody Maker is
coming out tomorrow and the story in it--which I couldn't prevent, I
didn't want it but Terry Ellis put it in without my knowledge--is that the
group has split up. Really, I'm going to do something on my own, maybe
called Jethro Tull, maybe not. But I am using different people and I
thought I ought to let you know.' I can't remember whether Ian signed it,
or whether that was a bloody carbon as well." (A New Day #15, 1988; in the
next issue Martin Barre verified this story)
David Palmer: "When I left, it was necessary to leave at the time I did,
if I was ever going to develop any further. ... Ian Anderson has a great
talent and he is also a very astute person....and I'm sure that as long as
I wanted to work in or with the band he would say 'fine,' you know." (A
New Day #23, 1990; David later did indeed do an arrangement for one song
on Catfish Rising, but Ian ended up wiping David's contribution and
replacing it with a keyboard part.)
Your pal,
Biffy the Elephant Shrew @}-`--}----
(representing Michael P. Dawson - Compositeur Americain)
Hear soundbites from THE BRANDNEWBUG CONCERTOS and see lots of other cool
stuff at http://users.aol.com/biffyshrew/biffy.html
No animals were harmed in the production of this post.
RAYMBEN
: Passion Play is a prog masterpiece!!!! I think it blows away
: Thick as A Brick and for some reason never achieved its
: popularity.
>Actaully, both albums hit the top five or ten at the time of theur
>releases, I think.
Both "Thick" and "Passion Play" reached No. 1 in the U.S. charts. These
were the only Tull albums to do so.
mathias thallmayer
Biffyshrew (biffy...@aol.com) wrote:
>David Palmer: "When I left, it was necessary to leave at the time I did,
>if I was ever going to develop any further. ... Ian Anderson has a great
>talent and he is also a very astute person....and I'm sure that as long as
>I wanted to work in or with the band he would say 'fine,' you know." (A
>New Day #23, 1990; David later did indeed do an arrangement for one song
>on Catfish Rising, but Ian ended up wiping David's contribution and
>replacing it with a keyboard part.)
And, DP did "A Classic Case", which IA and MB played on.
--
Mathias
icono...@tarkus.ocis.temple.edu