Postmodern prog?
Michael Borella
postmodern qualities, while Genesis, Anglagard, Birdsongs of the Mesozoic,
Echolyn, Mr. Bungle and Porcupine Tree are not. What other bands are heavy on
the postmodernism?
--
Mike Borella
cath...@xnet.com
http://www.borella.net
Gnimelf Cire
What exactly are the qualities of postmodern music? I think I finally have
a grasp on what postmodern philosophy is (i.e. a rather broad category for
any philosophy that is a critique of essentialism). Alas, postmodern
literature doesn't seem to have all that much in common with postmodern
philosophy.
Kinda like modernism. What exactly do the philosophical, architectural, and
literary modernism have in common other than name?
--
Eric Fleming
Word of the Week: space
Quote of the Week:
For beauty is nothing but the beginning of terror we can just barely endure,
and we admire it so because it calmly disdains to destroy us.
-Rainer Maria Rilke
Now Playing: The Beatles- Revolver
"Michael Borella" <cath...@news.xnet.com> wrote in message
news:slrnavakvj....@typhoon.xnet.com...
Tonsoc
>postmodern qualities, while Genesis, Anglagard, Birdsongs of the Mesozoic,
>Echolyn, Mr. Bungle and Porcupine Tree are not. What other bands are heavy
>on
>the postmodernism?
When I was in grad school I was in a band called Modernity Leave. At first our
band existed only as a "discursive field" (i.e., we talked about the fact that
we were a band) before we finally wrote some songs. I'm not sure how
postmodern our music was, but our lyrics made fun of postmodernism. Like:
I've got no signfier.
I've got no signified.
I've got no significant other.
Lord, please give me a sign!
I said to Herman baby,
My hermeneutic man,
Come home and complete the circle
And do it as fast as you can!
Our lead singer wrote both of those, so don't blame me. :-)
Tony Alumkal
Ben Wolfson
> When I was in grad school I was in a band called Modernity Leave. At first our
> band existed only as a "discursive field" (i.e., we talked about the fact that
> we were a band) before we finally wrote some songs. I'm not sure how
> postmodern our music was, but our lyrics made fun of postmodernism. Like:
[snip lyrics]
The best band for lyrics like that is definitely PopCanon. E.g. "Make
Reference":
:chorus:
Is there something between me and the tree
Or is the tree in my head?
Isn't the tree too big to be in my head?
I fantasize that I could drink some wine
With Martin Heidegger and Willard Quine
And the conversation's intense -
It makes reference.
chorus
This song will never be in the top forty
Unless the chart was made by Richard Rorty
And even though that doesn't make sense
It makes reference.
chorus
Every year I send a valentine
To Luther Ludwig Wolfgang Wittgenstein,
And somehow it never gets sent.
There's no referent.
chorus
Hangin' with Loc and Young MC
Bustin' a move on a Fake Lady
And then we listen to the Fresh Prince:
He makes reference.
--
I certainly seem to be enjoying myself in the same way, smacking my
lips, sighing and moaning, dripping [REDACTED] on my shirt and
smearing it into my moustache ... But ... If I snuck a lick of your
cone, I wouldn't smack my lips. -- Ted Cohen
Johan Lif
news:slrnavakvj....@typhoon.xnet.com...
> I find that some prog such as Univers Zero and After Crying have many
> postmodern qualities, while Genesis, Anglagard, Birdsongs of the Mesozoic,
> Echolyn, Mr. Bungle and Porcupine Tree are not.
You're talking nonsense, I'm afraid.
Johan
Julia
>What other bands are heavy on
>the postmodernism?
Count me as another one who doesn't really understand the definition of
postmodernism? Is it the same as deconstructivism? In which case, Beefheart
and Jon Spencer Blues Explosion deconstruct the blues, but that's not really
prog. Bowie deconstructs practically all his influences, which is getting a bit
closer. A lot of Zeuhl sounds like they _might_ be trying to do something like
that, but I can't say for sure. (The alternative is that they are playing it
straight, which is kind of scary when you think about it :-) A similar dilemma
revolves around _Heresie_-era UZ.
Surely there must be at least one neo-prog band who screwed around with the
sympho genre, but I can't thing of one. On the other hand, if such a beast
existed, we would probably all think they were heroes, and I don't recall such
a band.
--
Julia Dream
Oreb
no such thing as "postmodernism", merely loose connections of social,
political, economic and cultural critiques that have as a common
factor a rejection of the individual Subject (i.e. "I") as the centre
of any analysis. It's a dated concept, emerging in France at around
the same time as some of the riots in the late 60's.
I think that one way of looking a postmodern prog is therefore to look
at bands/artists who play around with personae and irony. My primary
nominee would be early Roxy Music, particularly the debut album. Ferry
switches identity numerous times within a song ("If There is
Something") and the concept of soloing is played with in
"Re-make/Re-model".
This is an exception, however. Any form that tries to capture the
essence of a moment is necessarilly Modernist, because postmodernism
would deny that any moment has an essence: merely a set of
subjectivities (or perspectives). Therefore forget free improvisation
or the sophmoric games of GYBE or the cosmic stuff.
What parades as postmodern these days is generally stuff that is
"Radical" (like wow: let's not put our names on the sleeve, let's call
the album by a different name.) When you scratch the surface there is
sentimentality and a "meaning" waiting for us to find (e.g. Sonic
Youth). Roxy in the early days (i.e. before Ferry started to believe
his own persona) was the real deal. Steely Dan are another.
Apologies if this seems very dry, but hey: you asked.
Richard Barnes
really means :-) Any ideas?
--
Richard Barnes
"Julia" <Saf...@abfab.com> wrote in message
news:at45sr$8ip$1...@fang.dsto.defence.gov.au...
Pure Absurd
> I find that some prog such as Univers Zero and After Crying have many
> postmodern qualities, while Genesis, Anglagard, Birdsongs of the Mesozoic,
> Echolyn, Mr. Bungle and Porcupine Tree are not. What other bands are heavy on
> the postmodernism?
> --
Let me deconstruct your POV. Will assume that the features of PoMo music
could be taken similar to ones of PoMo literature. In my own words they are:
A. distorsion of reality; 'timelessness' - confrontation/coexistence of
events/characters from different times; chronological and casual
non-linearity; irony and absurdizm
B. heavy citation use and intertextuality; mixing different styles and
genres; rhizomeness
C. renunciation of epic forms; close attention to everyday life; multicultural,
'something interesting for everybody' approach
D. 'reader is a hero' - huge amount of plot-work, psyho-work and
emotio-work is transferred to the reader's side of equation - no more
'canned novels'; different people interpret things differently; search
for different means of communication
E. opposition to ideology-centrism and logocentrism; paying attention
to irrational sides of things; building custom 'logical' models; self-reference
Any other?
I think it's not too hard to refit them to music...
All in all, it looks like Mr. Bungle is the most postmodernistic band from your list.
And I'd say that BotM are more PMish, then UZ... More examples of PM prog
that comes to mind are SGM, Ruins, Arcturus, Demimonde (they define
themselves as 'Kozmik postmodern art metal').
Actually, prog has much less to do with PoMo then many of popular music genres.
It often takes itself too seriously.
Vadim
NP: Hedningarna - fiRe
- one more example
Johan Lif
seeing that one of the core beliefs of postmodernism, however one chooses to
define it more precisely, is scepticism towards the idea of progress itself.
But this had better stop before it ends up in mere terminological exercises,
or just another debate where everyone is using the same word to mean
completely different things.
It's true that postmodernism is such a watered-down concept these days that
any meaningful use of the word is close to impossible. More often than not
is merely empty Zeitgeist jargon ("our postmodern age") or bad shorthand
sociology. It's inevitably bad politics. If you look at it philosophically
it may be reduced to a number of tenets, none of them especially new:
usually a belief in postmodernism requires a grotesquely unfair charicature
of what one imagines "modernism" to have been. Taken into the realm of
politics and economics, it's usually nonsense (hello, Hardt; hello, Negri).
As for science, well, ask Alan Sokal about that.
"Oreb" <cathi...@optushome.com.au> skrev i meddelandet
news:1df531e6.02121...@posting.google.com...
> of any analysis. It's a dated concept, emerging in France at around
> the same time as some of the riots in the late 60's.
"Riots" is a simplistic way of summing up the political situation of the
late 1960s. But yes, there is a relation: postmodernism is the hangover from
May 1968. Its politics are defeatist through and through; radical in
everything except action, one of its methods being to question everything
mercilessly except ones own academic privileges. Eagleton is good on this in
The Illusions of Postmodernism (Blackwell, 1996).
> I think that one way of looking a postmodern prog is therefore to look
> at bands/artists who play around with personae and irony.
A concept certainly not unfamiliar to modernism ("The Love Song of J. Alfred
Prufrock").
> My primary
> nominee would be early Roxy Music, particularly the debut album.
I'd look for the music made when "postmodernism" still seemed like a rather
vital buzzword, ie the early 80s. Cassiber, maybe: Chris Cutler fits the
academic postmodern pattern by having gone from ultra-leftism to PoMo
vacuity. Or why not early Scritti Politti. They even recorded a (good!) song
called "Jacques Derrida". Or post-punk. See Simon Reynold's piece here:
http://members.aol.com/blissout/postpunk.htm
Johan
Johan Lif
You need some Philip Glass or John Adams! They were just as upmarket as
Derrida.
Johan
Johan Lif
news:at45sr$8ip$1...@fang.dsto.defence.gov.au...
> Count me as another one who doesn't really understand the definition of
> postmodernism? Is it the same as deconstructivism?
You mean "deconstruction". Derrida coined the word, punning on
"structuralism" and Heidegger's concept of "Destruktion". It's an anlytical
method, sort of (its adherents would no doubt sneer at my reductionism),
that attempts to locate the contradictions hidden within every text and put
the finger on where the seams are showing. That way any text can be turned
on its head, its hierarchies reversed. Usually "deconstruct" means nothing
more than "analyse". Sometimes it means nothing whatsoever. Saying that
Beefheart "deconstructs" the blues just means that he's twisting it around a
bit.
Johan
cap...@hotmail.com
wrote:
One day we'll all be dead, you know.
Box0
>Or post-punk. See Simon Reynold's piece here:
>http://members.aol.com/blissout/postpunk.htm
an excellent read. thanks for the link
TOIB
> Of course the music mostly associated with postmodernism is 80s minimalism.
> You need some Philip Glass or John Adams! They were just as upmarket as
> Derrida.
The music I most often hear associated with postmodernism is
80s(-ish) jazz from the likes of Zorn (likely New York scene in general),
Braxton, etc.
Regards,
--
Sean McFee
Johan Lif
news:at4io7$2f8$1...@thorium.cix.co.uk...
> Ah yes, "deconstructed" - a word I've used often without knowing what it
> really means :-) Any ideas?
That's how most people use it. In most non-academic writing it's a bit of
airy jargon. A joke, more or less. Use it like that, if you must.
I did a quick search for "deconstruction" on a Swedish database of newspaper
articles. Here are just a few examples of the many colourful things it could
refer to: critical archeology (based the idea that the past is used
ideologically to legitimate the present); an artwork by Jasper Morrison that
deconstructs the difference between product and production; children's
literature (a character's "deconstruction of her teenage identity": ie, she
deftly analyses what the grown-up world expects of her); a staging of
Shakespeare's As You Like It; Bush's "War Against Terrorism" (it
deconstructs the global order of justice, apparently); lesbianism as an
emancipatory deconstruction that poses an alternative to heterosexuality;
fashion (the Belgian designer Margiela); architecture, and Bill Clinton.
Johan
Johan Lif
news:at5i53$akl$1...@driftwood.ccs.carleton.ca...
> The music I most often hear associated with postmodernism is
> 80s(-ish) jazz from the likes of Zorn (likely New York scene in general),
> Braxton, etc.
I'm not so sure about how Braxton fits in but Zorn's playfully polystylistic
works certainly do: Spillane, Godard, Spy vs. Spy, Naked City, Cobra, etc.
Johan
TOIB
I think it's in the same context that Stravinsky's
neo-classicalism is viewed. He tends to do some takes on traditional
material that (supposedly) subvert the original stylistic conventions in
no-doubt clever ways ;).
> but Zorn's playfully polystylistic
> works certainly do: Spillane, Godard, Spy vs. Spy, Naked City, Cobra, etc.
Yes.
Regards,
--
Sean McFee
Alex Temple
>
> Johan awakens Beta 14 OK:
> > I'm not so sure about how Braxton fits in
>
> I think it's in the same context that Stravinsky's
> neo-classicalism is viewed. He tends to do some takes on traditional
> material that (supposedly) subvert the original stylistic conventions in
> no-doubt clever ways ;).
If Stravinsky is POST-modern, I think we should just give up entirely.
--
Alex Temple
fiber_optiq at yahoo dot com
"This Temple raving of the week is brought to you by Wayside,
proudly bringing you wierd avant shit since 1981" -Pr33t
TOIB
>> I think it's in the same context that Stravinsky's
>> neo-classicalism is viewed. He tends to do some takes on traditional
>> material that (supposedly) subvert the original stylistic conventions in
>> no-doubt clever ways ;).
> If Stravinsky is POST-modern, I think we should just give up entirely.
I never said he was, grasshopper ;). I said he was a
neo-classicalist.
Regards,
--
Sean McFee
Johan Lif
meddelandet news:3DF66165...@yahoo.com...
> If Stravinsky is POST-modern, I think we should just give up entirely.
Arnold Schönberg, Le Corbusier, Ezra Pound, Isadora Duncan and Leon Trotsky
are some other notable post-modernists.
Johan
Alex Temple
Gnimelf Cire
news:nYpJ9.901$FF4....@newsb.telia.net...
>
> As for science, well, ask Alan Sokal about that.
>
Or don't. I've read some Sokal, and some other literature from his side of
the debate, and for what little the po-mo's know of science, Sokal knows
even less about postmodernism.
Nevertheless, I think the debate is less between postmodernism and science
than between a caricature of both. Last I've heard, Derrida has said close
to nil regarding science.
From where I stand, nothing would make me happier than a putting to rest of
the word "postmodern."
--
Eric Fleming
Word of the Week: space
Quote of the Week:
For beauty is nothing but the beginning of terror we can just barely endure,
and we admire it so because it calmly disdains to destroy us.
-Rainer Maria Rilke
Now Playing: Tindersticks- Curtains
Richard Barnes
> "Richard Barnes" <ric...@barnes-assoc.co.uk> skrev i meddelandet
> news:at4io7$2f8$1...@thorium.cix.co.uk...
> > Ah yes, "deconstructed" - a word I've used often without knowing what it
> > really means :-) Any ideas?
>
newspaper
> articles. Here are just a few examples of the many colourful things it
could
> refer to: critical archeology
>and Bill Clinton
LOL. Well I've followed this thread with great interest and utter
bafflement. (the postmodern bit, not the "deconstruct" which I get now). I
now have no clue at all what postmodern means, or rather I have no idea what
the definitions of postmodern actually mean.
--
Richard Barnes
Oreb
> are some other notable post-modernists.
>
Pound would have held the po-mo's in understandable contempt, as he
did Taoists and Buddhists. His whole "ideogrammic method" was about
the invocation of essences.
Oreb
> I'd look for the music made when "postmodernism" still seemed like a rather
> vital buzzword, ie the early 80s.
You're right, it certainly proved a political dead-end. But I think
the vitality of po-mo was really in the early-mid 70's. By the 80's it
was a play-thing for rich-kids to talk loudly about in cafes.
;)
Iwan
> I've read some Sokal, and some other literature from his side of
> the debate, and for what little the po-mo's know of science, Sokal knows
> even less about postmodernism.
>
Maybe. But the way I see it, he had a solid case.
Iwan
Alex Temple
>
> LOL. Well I've followed this thread with great interest and utter
> bafflement. (the postmodern bit, not the "deconstruct" which I get now). I
> now have no clue at all what postmodern means, or rather I have no idea what
> the definitions of postmodern actually mean.
OK, try this:
Modernist movements, from Surrealism to the Second Viennese School,
typically believed that they had The Answer to the great question of How
Art Should Be. The image was of brilliant artists showing the True
Whatever to the benighted masses.
Post-modernism includes (though it may not be limited to) the rejection
of the idea that some ideas are inherently superior to others, as well
as the idea that artistic intent is irrelevant: the quality of a piece
of art is non-fixed and determined by its context and its audience at
any given time.
I think Johan about summed it up when he found out he'd been replying to
a troll, and said, "ah, who cares about authorial intent anyway?"
For further information, see:
http://www.catandgirl.com/view.cgi?43
http://www.catandgirl.com/view.cgi?105
http://www.catandgirl.com/view.cgi?59
--
Alex Temple - NP: Stormy Six - Al Volo
TOIB
Hey man, nice to see you posting on RMP. Hope you'll stick around.
Regards,
--
Sean McFee
Johan Lif
news:pMvJ9.192449$GR5....@rwcrnsc51.ops.asp.att.net...
> Or don't. I've read some Sokal, and some other literature from his side
of
> the debate, and for what little the po-mo's know of science, Sokal knows
> even less about postmodernism.
Oh, I don't think Sokal provides a reliable put-down of postmodernism as a
whole. He was right to point out instances of pseudo-scientific jargon in
certain PoMo theorists; wrong to go from there to general conclusions about
their works. As you say, he ends up with a polemical caricature that does
nothing to explain their popularity. Good article about this in the London
Review of Books: http://www.lrb.co.uk/v20/n14/stur01_.html
> Nevertheless, I think the debate is less between postmodernism and science
> than between a caricature of both. Last I've heard, Derrida has said
close
> to nil regarding science.
And I don't think Sokal has said much about Derrida either.
> From where I stand, nothing would make me happier than a putting to rest
of
> the word "postmodern."
Good luck.
Johan
Johan Lif
> > Arnold Schönberg, Le Corbusier, Ezra Pound, Isadora Duncan and Leon
Trotsky
> > are some other notable post-modernists.
> >
> I'm assuming this is a joke.
Yes, but feel free to ignore authorial intention.
Johan
Richard Barnes
message news:3DF762E5...@yahoo.com...
> Richard Barnes wrote:
> >
> > LOL. Well I've followed this thread with great interest and utter
> > bafflement. (the postmodern bit, not the "deconstruct" which I get now).
I
> > now have no clue at all what postmodern means, or rather I have no idea
what
> > the definitions of postmodern actually mean.
>
> OK, try this:
>
> Modernist movements, from Surrealism to the Second Viennese School,
> typically believed that they had The Answer to the great question of How
> Art Should Be. The image was of brilliant artists showing the True
> Whatever to the benighted masses.
>
> Post-modernism includes (though it may not be limited to) the rejection
> of the idea that some ideas are inherently superior to others, as well
> as the idea that artistic intent is irrelevant: the quality of a piece
> of art is non-fixed and determined by its context and its audience at
> any given time.
>
Second Viennese schoool is anyway, I have a vague understanding of
surrealism but the explanation leaves me still thoroughly baffled. Thanks
for trying anyway.
--
Richard Barnes (BA (Calcutta) failed)
Oreb
> Hey man, nice to see you posting on RMP. Hope you'll stick around.
Cheers, mate.
Alex Temple
>
> > Modernist movements, from Surrealism to the Second Viennese School,
> > typically believed that they had The Answer to the great question of How
> > Art Should Be. The image was of brilliant artists showing the True
> > Whatever to the benighted masses.
> >
> > Post-modernism includes (though it may not be limited to) the rejection
> > of the idea that some ideas are inherently superior to others, as well
> > as the idea that artistic intent is irrelevant: the quality of a piece
> > of art is non-fixed and determined by its context and its audience at
> > any given time.
> >
> Nope, none of the above makes any sense at all to me.
Um, why not? What's not to understand?
> I don't know what the
> Second Viennese schoool is anyway,
Twelve-tone stuff.
--
Alex Temple
Johan Lif
> Nope, none of the above makes any sense at all to me.
I think Alex's presentation is much too schematic and that most of what he's
talking about can be explained without reference to post-modernism.
Johan
Garth Wallace
I think the idea of postmodernism (as it applies to art) can be summed
up by a marquee I saw today on the side of a trendy clothing store:
"Originality is undetected plagiarism". Basically, the idea that there
is nothing new, so all you can hope to do is mix-and-match in an
interesting way. Postmodernism also seems to have stolen a page from the
Pop Art movement in drawing no distinctions between "high" art and "low"
art.
--
Happy denizen of the Nightstar IRC Network
Webcomics discussion: irc://us.nightstar.net/webcomics
Progressive rock chat: irc://us.nightstar.net/progrock
Martial arts talk: irc://us.nightstar.net/martial-arts
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Richard Barnes
news:pmfK9.333305$NH2.23220@sccrnsc01...
> I think the idea of postmodernism (as it applies to art) can be summed
> up by a marquee I saw today on the side of a trendy clothing store:
> "Originality is undetected plagiarism". Basically, the idea that there
> is nothing new, so all you can hope to do is mix-and-match in an
> interesting way. Postmodernism also seems to have stolen a page from the
> Pop Art movement in drawing no distinctions between "high" art and "low"
> art.
>
OK, that I can grasp. Thanks. However I still don't see how this helps me
identify what is post-modern music as opposed to any other label. Is it a
question of attitude? E.g. if Thinking Plague maintain thay are not prog
they aren't post-modern while if Oasis acknowledge their influeces they are?
Or is there some way to use this definition to say one band is or isn't
postmodern?
mike reiss
Julia wrote in message ...
>In article <slrnavakvj....@typhoon.xnet.com>,
cath...@news.xnet.com (Michael Borella) writes:
>>What other bands are heavy on
>>the postmodernism?
>
>Count me as another one who doesn't really understand the definition of
>and Jon Spencer Blues Explosion deconstruct the blues, but that's not
really
>prog. Bowie deconstructs practically all his influences, which is getting a
bit
>closer. A lot of Zeuhl sounds like they _might_ be trying to do something
like
>that, but I can't say for sure. (The alternative is that they are playing
it
>straight, which is kind of scary when you think about it :-) A similar
dilemma
>revolves around _Heresie_-era UZ.
>
>Surely there must be at least one neo-prog band who screwed around with the
>sympho genre, but I can't thing of one. On the other hand, if such a beast
>existed, we would probably all think they were heroes, and I don't recall
such
>a band.
Hmmmm. Twelfth Night maybe
M.
>
>--
>Julia Dream
>
>