Expected Prog and got Progpop..
Know Kname
Maker...Prog legends from Yes-ELP-King Crimson/U.K. join forces to
become Asia.
what a letdown.....Wildest Dreams is my fave....and the last 2 bars of
Here Comes The Feeling.
love that ending.
GTR...same thing....last song Imagining is not bad.
ELP-Love Beach....all i kept thinking was why-why-why???
Triumvirat-A la Carte...omg what were they thinking?
Starcastle-Real To Reel......awful in every way.
Genesis-ABACAB....I was stunned on first listen....I saw it coming in
Follow You,Follow Me and Misunderstanding..the Phil Collins $$$$$$
machine is born.
Gentle Giant-Giant For A Day......did Capitol hold a POP gun (bad pun
sorry) to their heads or was it a last effort for a way out of the
contract? I like Civilian...it has some dignity at least.
Caravan-The Album--disco at best.
Ambrosia-One Eighty....the title should have been the tip off to the
progheads i guess.
Romerovm
A agree completely. All of the albums above are awful.
Specially the Starcastle, Asia and Triumvirat one ;-)
Victor
np-Albert Marcoeur- Album A Colorier
greblracr
royalties, see those 6-figure incomes of soundtrack composers & ad jinglemen,
and wonder, "What the fuck am I doing, and why?"
Steven Sullivan
> ASIA....I remember seeing this huge ad on the back of a Melody
> Maker...Prog legends from Yes-ELP-King Crimson/U.K. join forces to
> become Asia.
> what a letdown.....Wildest Dreams is my fave....and the last 2 bars of
> Here Comes The Feeling.
> love that ending.
it's the cowbell.
--
-S.
stePH
> ASIA....I remember seeing this huge ad on the back of a Melody
> Maker...Prog legends from Yes-ELP-King Crimson/U.K. join forces to
> become Asia.
>
Isn't this old news?
stePH
--
NP: Kenso, "Sayonara Prog"
Know Kname
discovered prog and perhaps have only recently found this place....maybe
they never saw this "old news" like you, and would not mind a little
history and sharing of memories. Is there a rule that certain subjects
are not allowed due to previous coverage? I'm not being sarcastic but
actually seeking an honest answer.
Because I don't know.....I just see a green page with all these
threads....and I respond or post as I feel.
I was just curious to see what others had to contribute.
but S. lost me with the cowbell line. I was thinking of the rapid-fire
notes before the abrupt ending of HCTF. My friends listening in 1982
thought that maybe the next one-(Alpha) would be more progressive now
that they had such a big hit with HOTM....Righhhhhhhttt.
Since many of the prog bands did go commercial in the 80's....another
one I forgot about was 90125...I wanted a new Yes record so bad, but to
this day it sounds less Yes than Drama....and as you know, no Jon.
I also would like to point out that with all these bands buckling under
to corporate pressure only one group had the discipline to stay true to
their musical integrity.
King Crimson....not a hit single in sight...and that music has remained
in my heart as art. The only other record from 1983 that i listen to is
Eddie Jobson/Zinc-The Green Album. Never tire of that...
Robbobell
to corporate pressure only one group had the discipline to stay true to
their musical integrity.
King Crimson....not a hit single in sight...and that music has remained
in my heart as art. >>
The corporate pressure no doubt came from the lack of fan support. If all the
same people who bought the first 4 or 5 Gentle Giant albums had bought the rest
perhaps they would have made quite different followup albums.
Fripp at least had the good sense to call it quits when the handwriting was on
the wall. The re-born '80's Crimson was to a large degree what you call it
"pop-prog" but say what you will, they managed to weather the whims of the
buying public and still make music your mother will never understand.
~R
stePH
> to you maybe so....but imagine younger people who may have just
> discovered prog and perhaps have only recently found this place....maybe
> they never saw this "old news" like you, and would not mind a little
> history and sharing of memories. Is there a rule that certain subjects
> are not allowed due to previous coverage? I'm not being sarcastic but
> actually seeking an honest answer.
I just thought it was common knowledge that Asia was pop crap despite
their prog pedigree, is all.
> I also would like to point out that with all these bands buckling under
> to corporate pressure only one group had the discipline to stay true to
> their musical integrity.
>
> King Crimson....not a hit single in sight...and that music has remained
> in my heart as art.
Of course, they've been disbanded for about half of their lifetime, not
carrying on in an unbroken line -- and also the band that recorded
"Happy With What You Have To Be Happy With" in 2003 is not at all the
same band that recorded "Epitaph" in 1969 ....
stePH
--
NP: Happy Family - "Kaiten (Ningen Gyorai)"
Jeff Blanks
Fair enough, but must they make *albums* like that?
--
"There is no excellent beauty which hath not some
strangeness in the proportion." --Sir Francis Bacon
Jeff Blanks
> << I also would like to point out that with all these bands buckling under
> to corporate pressure only one group had the discipline to stay true to
> their musical integrity.
>
> King Crimson....not a hit single in sight...and that music has remained
> in my heart as art. >>
> The corporate pressure no doubt came from the lack of fan support. If all the
> same people who bought the first 4 or 5 Gentle Giant albums had bought the rest
> perhaps they would have made quite different followup albums.
But it's not exactly as if going commercial saved GG. Did GG's sales
fall off when they made *The Missing Piece* or *Interview*? (Apparently
there was pressure from Ray Shulman as well; he genuinely liked "new
wave" and wanted to push the band in that direction.)
> Fripp at least had the good sense to call it quits when the handwriting was
> on the wall. The re-born '80's Crimson was to a large degree what you call it
> "pop-prog" but say what you will, they managed to weather the whims of the
> buying public and still make music your mother will never understand.
Fripp looked for (and found) a "hip" context that he could put himself
in, through his links with Brian Eno and David Bowie. People will pay
for hip, and if he can satisfy himself musically, too, why not? (It's
worth noting, though, that once he couldn't even be hip anymore--at
least not in that way--the music took a turn back toward the spirit of
the '73 Crimson. Or else he found that the '73 Crimson had become
somewhat hip.)
Jeff
>King Crimson....not a hit single in sight...
No. But "Sleepless" had a video and "Heartbeat" sucked.
Still, I agree that Crimso had a hundred times the integrity of Yes or Genesis
in the eighties.
- Jeff
Robbobell
fall off when they made *The Missing Piece* or *Interview*? (Apparently
there was pressure from Ray Shulman as well; he genuinely liked "new
wave" and wanted to push the band in that direction.) >>
Well, "progress" can take some curious turns and while it didn't sit well as
"progressive" with fans of the genre GG certainly didn't rehash their old
ideas. They lost my interest after Glass House.
<< Fripp looked for (and found) a "hip" context that he could put himself
in, through his links with Brian Eno and David Bowie. People will pay
for hip, and if he can satisfy himself musically, too, why not? (It's
worth noting, though, that once he couldn't even be hip anymore--at
least not in that way--the music took a turn back toward the spirit of
the '73 Crimson. Or else he found that the '73 Crimson had become
somewhat hip.) >>
I more or less agree and although I am lukewarm regarding the 80's Crimso I
still like Fripp's various journeyman adventures during that lead-up
period....yes, even Exposure. I also agree that the latter day KC harkens back
to the earlier spirit but adds the new zeitgeist with little or no pining for
the old glory days.
KC can still generate enough income (apparently) to pay for itself and it has
always seemed curious to me that bands completely dissolve when the big bucks
dry up. What does that imply about musical integrity?
~R
greblracr
>always seemed curious to me that bands completely dissolve when the big bucks
>dry up. What does that imply about musical integrity?
Nothing about 'musical integrity' but everything about self-indulgent rock
stars.
R. Totale
>Still, I agree that Crimso had a hundred times the integrity of Yes or Genesis
>in the eighties.
Uh, I dunno. I strongly dislike almost everything I've heard from
Genesis after W&W (and I'm not crazy about that one, either), but I
don't think it lacks =integrity=. Genesis was a songwriting
collective and those were the songs they brought to the table - I
didn't like them, millions more did than liked their songs about
Giant Hogweeds. So they all got rich but I don't think it was ever
dishonest or even particularly contrived.
Mivarsh Faz
:But it's not exactly as if going commercial saved GG. Did GG's sales
:fall off when they made *The Missing Piece* or *Interview*? (Apparently
:there was pressure from Ray Shulman as well; he genuinely liked "new
:wave" and wanted to push the band in that direction.)
Most of the pressure seemed to come from their new management
after _Interview_. Can't remember the name of the guy they signed up
with, but he was a sleazy radio-programmer type, and basically coerced
them into writing music that was geared for American AOR airplay. It
blew up in their face, though, by alienating their established
fan-base, and not gaining a new one.
MIKE (a.k.a. "Progbear")
to reply, See Beautiful Corners GLOBAL-ly, "dot" your I's and above
all, don't get caught in the NET
"The world of the heterosexual is a sick and boring life." --Edith
Massey
N.P.:"Rumour"- M o v i e s / D o u b l e "A"
Jeff
Know Kname
R. Totale
>Two words: Illegal Alien
and Knowbody says
>Invisible Touch
Yeah, a couple of pop songs I don't care for and as stated sold in the
millions. "Visions of Angels" is a pop song I didn't care for and
sold in the hundreds (at first, anyway). I'm lost as to why the first
has integrity
· n.
1 the quality of having strong moral principles.
2 the state of being whole. The condition of being unified or sound in
construction.
and the last two don't.
greblracr
>music that was geared for American AOR
>airplay.
Nobody can "coerce" you into writing something you don't believe in. Obviously
the band -- or at least stronger elements of it -- was willing to give it a
try.
The hubris of many prog musicians, thinking that just because they have monster
chops they should be able to succeed in a whole different genre!
Jeff
>even worse: Invisible Touch
Yes. But since we are discussing Yes and Genesis in comparison to King Crimson
in the eighties, I think we should stop at 1984, as Crimson did.
- Jeff
Cabeza Borradora
>> The corporate pressure no doubt came from the lack of fan support. If all the
>> same people who bought the first 4 or 5 Gentle Giant albums had bought the rest
>> perhaps they would have made quite different followup albums.
>
>But it's not exactly as if going commercial saved GG. Did GG's sales
>fall off when they made *The Missing Piece* or *Interview*? (Apparently
>there was pressure from Ray Shulman as well; he genuinely liked "new
>wave" and wanted to push the band in that direction.)
Uh. "Interview"? As in quite possibly their LEAST commercial album, EVER?
The only album they did that remotely resembles "new wave" is Civilian. Which
as it turns out is not a bad album at all, though hardly typical Gentle Giant.
--
"Flames are discouraged, except for those which quote famous (or
not-so- famous) Stooge lines. For example, it would be acceptable to
threaten to 'tear out your tonsils' or to 'gouge your eyes out'."
- alt.comedy.slapstick.3-stooges FAQ
Cabeza Borradora
>Jeff Blanks <jbl...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>
>:But it's not exactly as if going commercial saved GG. Did GG's sales
>:fall off when they made *The Missing Piece* or *Interview*? (Apparently
>:there was pressure from Ray Shulman as well; he genuinely liked "new
>:wave" and wanted to push the band in that direction.)
>
> Most of the pressure seemed to come from their new management
>after _Interview_. Can't remember the name of the guy they signed up
>with, but he was a sleazy radio-programmer type, and basically coerced
>them into writing music that was geared for American AOR airplay. It
>blew up in their face, though, by alienating their established
>fan-base, and not gaining a new one.
It's interesting to note as well that GG toured before recording "The Missing
Piece" playing some of the songs on it. The songs they played were the
marginally better songs on side two. So it seems like the proggier stuff on
that album was written first, and only later did complete garbage like "Betcha
Thought We Couldn't Do It" get written.
Cabeza Borradora
>rcar...@aol.commoc.loa (greblracr) wrote:
>
>> At some point in their 'career' many prog musicians look at their palty
>> royalties, see those 6-figure incomes of soundtrack composers & ad jinglemen,
>> and wonder, "What the fuck am I doing, and why?"
>
>Fair enough, but must they make *albums* like that?
The songs in ad jingles are, it must be noted, consistently better at this
point than the songs on the radio.
Cabeza Borradora
I think the first couple years of Collins Genesis were sincerely and honestly
crap- I mean, if you listen to recordings from the _Duke_ tour, this music is
obviously something Collins is passionate about, even if it isn't, per se,
very good- but by the time of, say, "Invisible Touch" they pretty
transparently didn't give a fuck anymore. I would say that Invisible Touch is
about as apathetic and insincere as music can get, except that "We Can't
Dance" was even worse.
Jeff
You have compared "Visions of Angels" to to "Invisible Touch" and "Illegal
Alien."
While it could be argued that "Visions of Angels" is a "pop" song, I am not
suggesting there is anything inherently wrong with that. Nor do I suggest that
there can be no integrity in writing "pop" songs. In fact, even if I don't care
as much for what they were doing, Genesis continued to have musical integrity
through _Abacab_, afaic.
"Illegal Alien" was, IMO, where Genesis became a joke, and ironically, they
were trying to *be* funny. In fact, the video and song are really in poor taste
and there is no integrity in being reduced to trying to be funny by dressing
up as Mexicans. That is one of single most stupid, idiotic, devoid of taste
moves they ever made, IMO. However, to be clear, having "integrity" in this
case applies to artistic principles, not moral. I don't think Genesis meant any
ill will by that song and video, it just sucked.
Genesis wrote some great pop songs in the eighties. In fact, I think "Mama" is
brilliant piece of work.
- Jeff
R. Totale
>>Yeah, a couple of pop songs I don't care for and as stated sold in the
>>millions. "Visions of Angels" is a pop song I didn't care for and
>>sold in the hundreds (at first, anyway). I'm lost as to why the first
>>has integrity and the last two don't.
>
>You have compared "Visions of Angels" to to "Invisible Touch" and "Illegal
>Alien."
>
>While it could be argued that "Visions of Angels" is a "pop" song, I am not
>suggesting there is anything inherently wrong with that. Nor do I suggest that
>there can be no integrity in writing "pop" songs. In fact, even if I don't care
>as much for what they were doing, Genesis continued to have musical integrity
>through _Abacab_, afaic.
>
>"Illegal Alien" was, IMO, where Genesis became a joke, and ironically, they
>were trying to *be* funny. In fact, the video and song are really in poor taste
>and there is no integrity in being reduced to trying to be funny by dressing
>up as Mexicans. That is one of single most stupid, idiotic, devoid of taste
>moves they ever made, IMO. However, to be clear, having "integrity" in this
>case applies to artistic principles, not moral. I don't think Genesis meant any
>ill will by that song and video, it just sucked.
You make a persuasive case. I remember the song only as background
music (which is the only way I ever heard it), and never saw the
video, as I did not own a television at that time. But your last two
sentences basically sum up why I responded to the OP in the first
place. Poor artistic judgement (or aesthetic choices different from
those I would have liked) doesn't in my mind equal a lack of
integrity. I don't think Collins ever saw himself as frontman/singer
as anything but a straightforward commercial artist - as a drummer
with Brand X etc. he may have had somewhat loftier ambitions, but the
Brand X albums I've heard were themselves solid commercial efforts,
not exactly uncompromising art material. I'd reserve lack of integrity
for the last 20 or so cynical "last tours" of The Who, the rveivial of
the Sex Pistols, or the last 20 years of the Rolling Stones career.
Jeff
>Poor artistic judgement (or aesthetic choices different from
>those I would have liked) doesn't in my mind equal a lack of
>integrity.
(snip)
Well, I'm getting caught up in semantics here, but....
From Merriam-Webster:
1 : firm adherence to a code of especially moral or artistic values :
INCORRUPTIBILITY
2 : an unimpaired condition : SOUNDNESS
3 : the quality or state of being complete or undivided : COMPLETENESS
So, I think my argument about artistic integrity holds up. But aside from that,
Genesis just didn't have nearly the commitment to any sort of artistic
achievement in the 80's that King Crimson had, IMO.
- Jeff
Oliver B. Warzecha
<20031111113326...@mb-m26.aol.com>:
> At some point in their 'career' many prog musicians look at their palty
> royalties, see those 6-figure incomes of soundtrack composers & ad jinglemen,
> and wonder, "What the fuck am I doing, and why?"
And then they take 30 seconds from one of their songs, and sell them as
ad jingles. Like Steve Hackett did it with "Timeless" (which is really
just a one-time melody from "There Are Many Sides To The Night")
Seriously, is there any info if Hackett made satisfying amounts of money
with this deal? TUI still runs it commercials for - I think - now more
than 10 years with some seconds of this melody...
--
OBW
"Omega Metallicus is of course old Etruscan for "Let's Party"[...]
Experiments on live guitars were carried out in the most human
conditions imaginable." Steve Hackett, liner notes from "Darktown"
Robbobell
Crimson
in the eighties, I think we should stop at 1984, as Crimson did.
- Jeff
>>
But the point is King Crimson continued for another 20 years. That they toyed
with 'commerciality' in the 80's can't really be held against them since they
also continued to toy with more radical musical ideas. Whether you think they
succeeded or not is beside the point. The fact is they have manged to continue
as a viable progressive looking outfit without making the kinds of compromises
that put profit ahead of a musical mission.
There are still a few others from that era who fall into this category as well:
Frith and Cutler .....
Oh go ahead, you can name them yourself.....
~R
Jeff
I was *defending* Crimson by pointing out that, IMO, they had much more musical
integrity than either Yes or Genesis in the early eighties.
- Jeff
Jeff Heikkinen
> KC can still generate enough income (apparently) to pay for itself and it has
> always seemed curious to me that bands completely dissolve when the big bucks
> dry up. What does that imply about musical integrity?
I'm told - I'm not sure how reliably - that breaking up is often a
band's only defense against contracts that make their record company
millions of dollars but the artist barely enough to pay the bills. So
in some cases (I'm not saying all, or even most) it may be the only
thing thier integrity allows.
Robbobell
Gullible and budding young would be stars often put every expense on the
label's tab and when their sales do not meet expectations bla bla....but you
still have to admire artists who do it anyway despite the financial downsides.
~Robert (High Llama)
Robbobell
>Crimson
*defending* Crimson by pointing out that, IMO, they had much more musical
integrity than either Yes or Genesis in the early eighties.
- Jeff >>
I thought you were defaming the latter-day King Crimson, sorry Jeff. Fripp
bashing is almost a contact sport sometimes.
~R
Dan Britton
> I think the first couple years of Collins Genesis were sincerely and honestly
> crap- I mean, if you listen to recordings from the _Duke_ tour, this music is
> obviously something Collins is passionate about, even if it isn't, per se,
> very good- but by the time of, say, "Invisible Touch" they pretty
> transparently didn't give a fuck anymore. I would say that Invisible Touch is
> about as apathetic and insincere as music can get, except that "We Can't
> Dance" was even worse.
Tony Banks has gone on record as saying he's very proud of a lot of
their eighties work, and if you listen to interviews with him from the
period, he says that there is actually a lot that the eighties stuff
has in common with the seventies stuff. I think he even said that
"Duchess" was his second favorite Genesis song ever (Supper's Ready
being number one). I'm pretty sure he also said he felt quite proud
of Invisible Touch, especially Tonight Tonight Tonight.
I like prog as much as anybody, and I feel I oughta say that I think
most of the 1980s and 1990's Genesis is really still very good. I
think the main reason it always gets derided is that it was so
freaking popular when it came out, and claiming to like Genesis in
public ostensibly meant liking pop music as far as most people were
concerned. Nothing, of course, could bother a progger more than that,
and the band has been resented ever since.
The climaxes of Tonight Tonight Tonight, Mama, and Home by the Sea
really do have a lot in common with the climaxes in the Gabriel-era
stuff. The pop songs sound a lot more professional, but they're still
good songs. Throwing it all Away is just a really good song, and I
honestly don't see how someone can deny that. I actually think I Know
What I Like is only as good as the eighties singles, and there's
really nothing about that song that makes it any better than a given
eighties Genesis pop song.
If 1) the stuff was never popular and/or 2) it was by a different
band, it would probably be regarded as some of the best music of the
1980s, even by proggers.
greblracr
>Genesis is really still very good.
Two words: illegal alien.
Christopher J Currie
> robb...@aol.comSPAMTHIS (Robbobell) wrote:
>> The corporate pressure no doubt came from the lack of fan support. If all the
>> same people who bought the first 4 or 5 Gentle Giant albums had bought the rest
>> perhaps they would have made quite different followup albums.
> But it's not exactly as if going commercial saved GG. Did GG's sales
> fall off when they made *The Missing Piece* or *Interview*? (Apparently
> there was pressure from Ray Shulman as well; he genuinely liked "new
> wave" and wanted to push the band in that direction.)
Would that he had succeeded ...
Christopher
Jeff Blanks
> Jeff Blanks <jbl...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>
> :Did GG's sales
> :fall off when they made *The Missing Piece* or *Interview*?
>
> Most of the pressure seemed to come from their new management
> after _Interview_. Can't remember the name of the guy they signed up
> with, but he was a sleazy radio-programmer type, and basically coerced
> them into writing music that was geared for American AOR airplay.
Lee Abrams, maybe? By today's standards, he's one of the *good* guys.
:-P (He certainly seems to regret the way rock radio has turned out,
and his own role in it.)
> It blew up in their face, though, by alienating their established
> fan-base, and not gaining a new one.
Yep. People should know better by now.
--
"There is no excellent beauty which hath not some
strangeness in the proportion." --Sir Francis Bacon
Jeff Blanks
> The songs in ad jingles are, it must be noted, consistently better at this
> point than the songs on the radio.
True. Of course, as often as not they seem to be licensed from albums
by bands, not made to order.
Jeff Blanks
> Nobody can "coerce" you into writing something you don't believe in.
No, but they can suspend your contract, which is about the worst
position in which to place a musician.
greblracr
>which is about the worst position in which
>to place a musician.
I thought the worst position in which to place a musician was:
A. With one hand on your wallet,
B. Face planted in the toilet,
C. Pants around the ankles, or
D. All of the above simultaneously
Know Kname
i miss mr. z.:(
Steven Sullivan
E. Near the drummer.
--
-S.
"They've got God on their side. All we've got is science and reason."
-- Dawn Hulsey, Talent Director