What do you think of Jenna & Barbara Bush?
Egyptienne.
--
nothing here to fear
i'm just sitting around being foolish
when there is work to be done
-tori amos
http://geezohpetes.blogspot.com
[reverse my name to reply]
mount2073
http://www.40ozmaltliquor.com/jenna40.jpg
http://www.40ozmaltliquor.com/jenna40.jpg
I'm partial to the 40....
--
Nate
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
That Simpson, he thinks he's the Pope of
Chili-Town.
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mount2073
http://shinerman.tripod.com/ladies/barbara2.jpg
Stoy
i think the same thing as any other young bush doctrine fanatic... if you agree
with it, enlist... put your life where your wallet is, so to speak
el Stoy!
Stoy
call since i pledged my service when they invaded saudi arabia. sometimes the
truth hurts
el Stoy!
Moondog
which barbara?
--
"I am not allowed to ever come up with a single original thought.
And I am not allowed to meet the criminal government agent who
oppresses me." -- they might be giants
dig under rocks
boogie
> SSIA
>
They know how to salute the Command in Chief.
http://www.boingboing.net/images/satannnnnn.jpg
--
-marc
If you had my life, you'd stay sober too.
John
Egyptienne.
> http://shinerman.tripod.com/ladies/barbara2.jpg
I think Barbara's quite pretty, actually. She's classier than Jenna and
has a very simple beauty to her.
http://us.news1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/rids/20050121/i/r2186306882.jpg
http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20050121/capt.dcth12601210052.bush_inaugural_dcth126.jpg
http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20050120/capt.dcth11101202155.bush_inaugural_dcth111.jpg
http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20050121/capt.wx10101212248.inaugural_snapshot_wx101.jpg
http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/nm/20050121/mdf829422.jpg
Egyptienne.
> They know how to salute the Command in Chief.
> http://www.boingboing.net/images/satannnnnn.jpg
Dude, if you look at images from that night, she could not STOP doing
that! I know she was a Longhorn, but chill already!
Egyptienne.
> which barbara?
The twin, of course.
Scott Tillman
of them is really "my type" per se and also considering I have no knowledge
of their personalities. I do not find Barbara that hot, way too skinny and
something erks me about the face...
Take er easy
Scott T.
Whyweigh
JB
> SSIA
>
Barbara is hot. Jenna is probably better in bed....
;-)
Egyptienne.
> Barbara is hot. Jenna is probably better in bed....
Does anyone know what they're up to now that they've graduated college?
I've heard that Jenna is a teacher (scary thought) and Barbara works
with AIDS patients (but doing what, I don't know).
Scott Tillman
I must add a disclaimer, the early Gina pictures aren't as flattering as the
later. It appears she perhaps lost a few pounds...
JB
>
> Does anyone know what they're up to now that they've graduated college?
> I've heard that Jenna is a teacher (scary thought)
Amazing. You know so very little about her, yet the mere thought that
she may actually be a teacher is "scary" to you......
On what facts are you making your judgement?
Egyptienne.
> Amazing. You know so very little about her, yet the mere thought that
> she may actually be a teacher is "scary" to you......
>
> On what facts are you making your judgement?
I do know very little about her, right. But from what I do know, she
seems just as bright as her father. I'd rather have Barbara educating
my children, if I had to pick a twin.
JB
> JB wrote:
>
>> Amazing. You know so very little about her, yet the mere thought that
>> she may actually be a teacher is "scary" to you......
>>
>> On what facts are you making your judgement?
>
>
> I do know very little about her, right. But from what I do know, she
> seems just as bright as her father. I'd rather have Barbara educating
> my children, if I had to pick a twin.
>
>
That's hilarious. Having never met them, and having very limited
information about either of them, then the only thing you know about
Jenna and/or Barbara is how they look and, based on that, you determine
that you would rather have Jenna educating your children.
And, fwiw, GWB has degrees from Harvard and Yale. Can you say the same?
Moondog
> And, fwiw, GWB has degrees from Harvard and Yale. Can you say the same?
>
if my family could have gotten me into yale and/or harvard, i would have
degrees from there as well
BoMaGoSh Yndit
news:OqCdnfhIhdm...@rcn.net...
Considering that neither of my parents were legacies at either of those
institutions (which greatly increases the chances of getting admitted) let
alone the fact that my grandfather was not the sitting US Senator of the
state at the time I applied (as Prescott Bush was for Connecticut at the
time that GWB was applying to Yale) I would have had to be far more than a C
student that Bush has acknowledge he was -- even coming from a top-notch
prep school the way Bush was. That actually is one of Bush's biggest
failings, in my view -- he, even more than his father (who actually DID make
something of himself as a WWII aviator) embodies what Ann Richards said of
GHWB -- "He was born on third base, and thought he hit a triple."
I've never gotten a job or gotten into a school because of who my father or
grandfather were. As far as I can tell, GW Bush has never gotten a job or
into a school EXCEPT as a result of who his father and grandfather were.
The closest he came was this last election, but there is no way he would
have been running for reelection if he hadn't been George Bush's son,
because he would never have been elected to any job in Texas on his record
of being a guy who drove one business after another into the ground.
Egyptienne.
> That's hilarious. Having never met them, and having very limited
> information about either of them, then the only thing you know about
> Jenna and/or Barbara is how they look and, based on that, you determine
> that you would rather have Jenna educating your children.
Jenna is wild! I know of her reputation via what is printed in the
papers about her.
> And, fwiw, GWB has degrees from Harvard and Yale. Can you say the same?
Um, he didn't get there via his intelligence, if you haven't noticed.
It's called money, influence, admission.
Egyptienne.
> he, even more than his father (who actually DID make
> something of himself as a WWII aviator) embodies what Ann Richards said of
> GHWB -- "He was born on third base, and thought he hit a triple."
Great quote. Highly accurate.
> As far as I can tell, GW Bush has never gotten a job or
> into a school EXCEPT as a result of who his father and grandfather were.
Those are the coattails he's ridden his entire life.
> The closest he came was this last election, but there is no way he would
> have been running for reelection if he hadn't been George Bush's son,
> because he would never have been elected to any job in Texas on his record
> of being a guy who drove one business after another into the ground.
Ah. Nails in the coffin. Right on.
Brendon M. Troy
> Egyptienne. wrote:
> > I've heard that Jenna is a teacher (scary thought)
>
> Amazing. You know so very little about her, yet the mere thought
that
> she may actually be a teacher is "scary" to you......
> On what facts are you making your judgement?
I don't have to have actually met Pauly Shore to know I wouldn't want
him as my children's teacher...
-Brendon
Moondog
> BoMaGoSh Yndit wrote:
> > he, even more than his father (who actually DID make
> > something of himself as a WWII aviator) embodies what Ann Richards said of
> > GHWB -- "He was born on third base, and thought he hit a triple."
>
> Great quote. Highly accurate.
>
ann richards also said "the only things in the middle of the road are
yellow lines and dead armadillos"
BoMaGoSh Yndit
get Hightower and Richards confused all the time.
dig under rocks
"Egyptienne." <az...@twcny.rr.com> wrote in message
news:SFZId.159298$Uf.9...@twister.nyroc.rr.com...
> JB wrote:
>> That's hilarious. Having never met them, and having very limited
>> information about either of them, then the only thing you know about
>> Jenna and/or Barbara is how they look and, based on that, you determine
>> that you would rather have Jenna educating your children.
>
> Jenna is wild! I know of her reputation via what is printed in the papers
> about her.
Well, a couple crazy nights...and a couple crazy pictures....does not mean
she's "wild".....we've all had our crazy nights.
dig under rocks
> And, fwiw, GWB has degrees from Harvard and Yale. Can you say the same?
A lot of dumb people have framed degrees on their walls.
kiwi
> And, fwiw, GWB has degrees from Harvard and Yale. Can you say the same?
I can't believe ANYONE would use this argument, heh...
Do you actually think he EARNED those degrees? Take away his name, his
family members going there, the fact that his family is a big name in
politics... and do you think he coulda gotten in?
He's led a privileged life, a life he was born into.
--
Matt
mveino at gmail dot com
http://www.phishyphotos.com
rmp photo album: http://www.recmusicphish.com
IM: Dividedsky319
Craig
> I don't have to have actually met Pauly Shore to know I wouldn't want
> him as my children's teacher...
How about an undercover police officer with an Austrian accent, sans tumor?
--
Craig
Brendon M. Troy
> Brendon M. Troy wrote:
> > I don't have to have actually met Pauly Shore to know I
wouldn't want
> > him as my children's teacher...
>
> How about an undercover police officer with an Austrian accent,
sans tumor?
hahahahahahahahaha ... hahahahahahaha, oh shit, I thought I was
done laughing there, but I wasn't. This really cracked me up.
Very "LOL".
-Brendon
P.S. No way, even if he does take a stance against underage
drinking as the "paahhty pooopahh".
BoMaGoSh Yndit
>> > As far as I can tell, GW Bush has never gotten a job or
> > into a school EXCEPT as a result of who his father and grandfather
were.
>
> Those are the coattails he's ridden his entire life.
>
Prep School: Phillips Andover -- where his father went
College: Yale -- where his father and Grandfather went and which is in
Connecticut which his Grandfather represented in the Senate until 1963.
Yale has a policy of preferred admissions to students who are
"legacies" of parents who graduated from the school.
Graduate School: Harvard Business School. Bush has acknowledged that
he was a poor student at Yale and was a "C" student. It's unclear how
he got into B-school at the best university with a 2.35 GPA at Yale.
National Guard: Bush got into the national guard and avoided service
in Vietnam, skipping over a long waiting list of applicants. Bush has
acknowledged that calls were made on his behalf by friends of the
family to get him this posting.
Professional: Started Arbusto Oil with college funds and the
investment by William H Draper (college friend of GHW Bush), James R.
Bath (another member of Bush's "champagne Squadron" in the Guard), and
prominent conservative Lewis Lehrman. Why would Lehrman back a recent
B-School graduate with no actual experience in a venture as fraught
with risk as oil exploration? Maybe because his father was recently
the chair of the Republican National Committee and the Director of the
CIA. It would be nice if people like me could start multimillion
dollar businesses right out of grad school, but unfortunately, my
grandfather was a plumber, not a US Senator.
Bush used his position with Arbusto (Spanish for "shrub") to get
positions with Spectrum 7, and Harken Oil (where he served as a
director), a series of transactions which kept him employed even though
his companies didn't have much success. Coincidentally, at the time,
his father was the sitting vice president of the US.
Shortly after his father was elected president, Bush was offered a
minority (2%) interest in the Texas Rangers. He bought in with a bank
loan covering almost all the cost; he later paid the loan off by
selling his interest in Harken. Bush was aware that Harken was in
precarious financial shape, and had insider information to that effect.
Despite getting a clear statement from the corporate counsel, Bush
went ahead and sold anyway. The next quarter Harken reported a loss of
$23 million and share prices dropped from $4 to $1.25.
He ran for Governor of Texas in 1994. But for his sharing the name of
the just-defeated President, he would never have gotten the nod. His
family connections helped him run for President in 2000.
There you go -- that's a list of achievements, not one of which was
achieved without it being directly related to his family pulling
strings or making a few calls on his behalf. Must be nice.
kiwi
> There you go -- that's a list of achievements, not one of which was
> achieved without it being directly related to his family pulling
> strings or making a few calls on his behalf. Must be nice.
nicely done!
No Names Please
your own arguments don't prove your conclusion. even if one believes
what you have said to be unbiased/un-spun truth, many of the instances
involved no direct involvement of his family and no strings pulled by his
family as you claim.
i'm curious, do you feel the same about hillary, who has gotten to where
she is because she is the wife of bill? or for that matter kennedy.
where would he be without his name and connections? oh yeah, in jail.
potatoman
>
> i'm curious, do you feel the same about hillary, who has gotten to where
> she is because she is the wife of bill?
you should read Hillary Clinton's biography before you start throwing
her name into any of your bullshit propaganda. I'll let you look into
the details and spin them into however you want but here are a couple of
highlights: She grew up below middle class, got in and paid her own way
through college (her grades were a little better than the certain son of
a president I won't name), and was more successful in her career than
her husband before he had any prominance what-so-ever.
kiwi
> many of the instances
> involved no direct involvement of his family and no strings pulled by his
> family as you claim.
In instances like this, no direct activity is needed. Especially when
it comes to getting into schools, or getting jobs. It's all about who
you know.
No Names Please
what exactly does any of that have to do with her political career? do
you really think should would be the senator from new york (or anyone in
new york would even have heard of her) is she wasn't bill's wife? do you
think she would have a shot to run for president if she wasn't bill's wife?
btw, according to:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hillary_Clinton#Early_life.2C_education.2C_and_career
"she describes her upbringing in Park Ridge as 'middle class'"
why do you change that to say "below middle class?" wonder how accurate
the rest of your post is, or is it all, as you say, "spin"
No Names Please
> No Names Please wrote:
>> many of the instances
>> involved no direct involvement of his family and no strings pulled by his
>> family as you claim.
>
> In instances like this, no direct activity is needed. Especially when
> it comes to getting into schools, or getting jobs. It's all about who
> you know.
that's not what he said, in the quote that you cut out, he specifically
said "directly":
"not one of which was achieved without it being directly related to his
family pulling strings or making a few calls on his behalf."
as for knowing people, bush can't help knowing who he and is family know.
Brendon M. Troy
> bush can't help knowing who he and is family know.
Of course not ... I don't think anyone's blaming him for that;
they were simply (imo) stating that those were pretty clear
contributors to his success, and disputing your claim that his
successes were evidence of his intelligence and hard work. Have
you forgotten where this game of hair-splitting began?
-Brendon
No Names Please
> "No Names Please" <gameh...@zaldo.comnospam> wrote
>> bush can't help knowing who he and is family know.
>
> Of course not ... I don't think anyone's blaming him for that;
yes they are. that is exactly what the post i objected to was about.
> they were simply (imo) stating that those were pretty clear
> contributors to his success, and disputing your claim that his
> successes were evidence of his intelligence and hard work. Have
> you forgotten where this game of hair-splitting began?
hey, i didn't make the post saying that everything he achieved was
"directly related to his family pulling strings or making a few calls on
his behalf."
if you agree that the statement was wrong, why are you taking it up with
me?
as for his achievements, no matter who he knows, he would not have gotten
to where he is now without "intelligence and hard work". a lot of people
know people and get advantages because of it. that doesn't mean that they
succeed.
Brendon M. Troy
> On Mon, 24 Jan 2005 14:55:09 -0500, Brendon M. Troy wrote:
> > "No Names Please" <gameh...@zaldo.comnospam> wrote
> >> bush can't help knowing who he and is family know.
> > Of course not ... I don't think anyone's blaming him for
that;
> yes they are. that is exactly what the post i objected to was
about.
No, they were saying that it contributed to this success; not
blaming him. They said (as you went on to point out) that they
interfered directly, which I don't believe we can know, but they
didn't blame Bush ...
> > they were simply (imo) stating that those were pretty clear
> > contributors to his success, and disputing your claim that
his
> > successes were evidence of his intelligence and hard work.
Have
> > you forgotten where this game of hair-splitting began?
> hey, i didn't make the post saying that everything he achieved
was
> "directly related to his family pulling strings or making a few
calls on
> his behalf."
> if you agree that the statement was wrong, why are you taking
it up with
> me?
Sorry, I see the distinction that you were trying to make as part
of your argument ... you're still splitting hairs about the
above, but I see what you were saying here. This thread has
gotten so drawn-out and away from the original subject, it's easy
to lose track.
> as for his achievements, no matter who he knows, he would not
have gotten
> to where he is now without "intelligence and hard work".
I disagree ... while he may have shown periods of concerted
effort and perhaps flashes of college-level reading and speaking
skills, those are not the overall story of his life as I've known
it, and ultimately, it seems to have been one of privelege and
hidden (or not-so-hidden) low intelligence. This is of course
only an informed opinion, and I've got a strong hunch yours will
be different. That's hard for me to understand, but okay.
> a lot of people
> know people and get advantages because of it. that doesn't
mean that they
> succeed.
Flawed logic here ... while your above statement (for some
actors, if X & Y, A) may be true, the implicit statement (for
this actor, not A, so not X & Y) is illogical.
-Brendon
No Names Please
> No Names Please wrote:
>> what exactly does any of that have to do with her political career?
no answer to this?
>> do
>> you really think should would be the senator from new york (or anyone in
>> new york would even have heard of her) is she wasn't bill's wife? do you
>> think she would have a shot to run for president if she wasn't bill's wife?
no answer to this either?
>>
>> btw, according to:
>>
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hillary_Clinton#Early_life.2C_education.2C_and_career
>>
>> "she describes her upbringing in Park Ridge as 'middle class'"
>>
>> why do you change that to say "below middle class?" wonder how accurate
>> the rest of your post is, or is it all, as you say, "spin"
>
> just going by the memory of the biography I read. poor memory I guess,
> but actually now that I've refreshed my memory by doing a quick google,
> it was her father's family who was below middle class and, after having
> to live that tough life, instilled in his children an ethic of hard
> work, which you are completely ignoring in her.
i'm not ignoring anything. none of this has anything to do with my
original comments that she would have not political career if it wasn't
for bill.
>
> Either way, you've got a fuckin' agenda against her and everybody else
> who isn't a republican.
shows how much you know. i'm not a republican and have voted dem as
recently as the past election. i do see your agenda against anyone who is
a republican though.
> With her intelligence
i don't recall ever saying that she isn't intelligent. since you seem to
want to make stuff up, i'll say for the record right now, i think she is
very intelligent.
> and hard work, hillary
> clinton was destined to be a success,
don't know if she's worked hard, but with her skills at manipulation and
with her opportunistic nature, i do agree that she probably would have
been a success at some level.
> politcally or otherwise, whether
> she was married to someone with similar traits or not. you pick out one
> detail in my post and claim that that's suspician that Hillary is only
> successful because she was married to Bill.
i never said that she was successful only because of bill. i said she was
successful *in her political career* because of bill. you haven't even
attempted to dispute that, instead you have posted irrelevant information
and attacks on me. as for what i picked out, it was just the first thing
you posted and i looked it up. if the first thing is wrong, i question
the rest and don't waste my time researching it, especially when coming
from someone with an agenda such as yours.
> Instead of doing that why
> don't you take five fucking minues of your life to be unbiased and read
> a quick biography of the woman to see for yourself.
i've seen enough of her to form my opinion, just as you have formed
one about bush and his administration. when throwing out the accusations
of bias, you should look in the mirror.
> Or you can keep
> listening to Rush and think that she's a spoiled bitch.
i don't listen to or like rush. what does he have to say about her?
> http://www.whitehouse.gov/history/firstladies/hc42.html
>
> She certainly was no C student and wasn't handed an oil well and
> baseball team at high-school graduation. Before Bill was even running
> for governer of arkansas, Hillary was heavily involved in politics. I'm
> not going to go through the whole biography here. Read the link and look
> at how much she accomplished before he husband was even a household name
> in Arkansas and then try and say that you honestly don't think there is
> a high probability that she would've been politically successful.
she would not be where she is today if it wasn't for bill. you never
answered my question, do you think that people from NY would even know who
she was, let alone be their senator if bill hadn't been president?
>
> You can say you don't like her, but to say that she is where she is
> because of 'connections' is more ignorant than most of the bullshit you
> spout around here.
ahh, the attacks. at least i know what i am dealing with here.
> If you're going to pick someone who was born with a
> silver spoon, go for Kerry. He fits it much more than most people.
what was his connection that got him his political career?
>
> i'm not in this thread for any other reason than to point out, yet
> again, to everyone else how biased and agenda oriented you are.
again, look in the mirror when talking about bias. you still haven't
provided an ounce of evidence to counter my claim that she is senator from
NY only because of her husband.
> I'm
> certainly not coming in to have any kind of intelligent discussion with
> you. you always have to have the last word, no matter how ignorant it
> is.
keep up the attacks, it does a great job to further your non-existent
argument.
>
> so let's hear that last word on how hillary wouldn't have gotten where
> she is without bill. I'm sure we will all be enlightened.
i already have, instead of responding, you just attacked me
>
> i'm done.
we'll see.
BoMaGoSh Yndit
I apologize. In some instances listed, his family didn't even have to
call.
>
> i'm curious, do you feel the same about hillary, who has gotten to
where
> she is because she is the wife of bill? or for that matter kennedy.
> where would he be without his name and connections? oh yeah, in
jail.
Hilary Clinton was already at Yale before she met Bill, and as far as I
know she got there, as did Bill, entirely on merit. She went on to a
career as a successful attorney in Little Rock before and after Bill
ran for office in Arkansas. I would say that she would not have been
elected to the Senate in New York if she had not been the First Lady,
so she got one job out of who she married. That's a bit different from
getting every school admission, admission to the Guard, all of his
private sector jobs and his elective offices primarily because of his
family name or connections. And to get back to the whole point here --
the question raised was whether Bush holding degrees from Yale and
Harvard showed that he was a smart guy. Nobody that I know of has said
that Hillary Clinton isn't a smart person -- she got into Yale on her
grades.
I'd agree that Senator Kennedy similarly benefitted from being the son
of a prominent family to get into colleges and jobs. Of course, he
actually DID serve as a PFC in the US Army. But putting that aside, I
guess I agree with you that both Kennedy and GW Bush sucked off a
silver spoon and benefitted significantly from who their daddies were.
Brendon M. Troy
> I guess I agree with you that both Kennedy and GW Bush sucked
off a
> silver spoon and benefitted significantly from who their
daddies were.
Yeah, I guess I do too ... I never thought of it that way ...
thanks, No Names Please!
-Brendon
No Names Please
> "No Names Please" <gameh...@zaldo.comnospam> wrote
>> On Mon, 24 Jan 2005 14:55:09 -0500, Brendon M. Troy wrote:
>> > "No Names Please" <gameh...@zaldo.comnospam> wrote
>> >> bush can't help knowing who he and is family know.
>> > Of course not ... I don't think anyone's blaming him for
> that;
>> yes they are. that is exactly what the post i objected to was
> about.
>
> No, they were saying that it contributed to this success; not
> blaming him. They said (as you went on to point out) that they
> interfered directly, which I don't believe we can know, but they
> didn't blame Bush ...
then what was the point of the post and those that have agreed? if it
wasn't to blame/attack bush, what was the point?
>
>> > they were simply (imo) stating that those were pretty clear
>> > contributors to his success, and disputing your claim that
> his
>> > successes were evidence of his intelligence and hard work.
> Have
>> > you forgotten where this game of hair-splitting began?
>> hey, i didn't make the post saying that everything he achieved
> was
>> "directly related to his family pulling strings or making a few
> calls on
>> his behalf."
>> if you agree that the statement was wrong, why are you taking
> it up with
>> me?
>
> Sorry, I see the distinction that you were trying to make as part
> of your argument ... you're still splitting hairs about the
> above,
splitting hairs? how is replying to what was posted splitting hairs? the
post said that his success was "directly related to his family pulling
strings or making a few calls on his behalf." that statement is pretty
clear. no splitting hairs in debating it. do you think it is true or
not?
> but I see what you were saying here. This thread has
> gotten so drawn-out and away from the original subject, it's easy
> to lose track.
>
>> as for his achievements, no matter who he knows, he would not
> have gotten
>> to where he is now without "intelligence and hard work".
>
> I disagree ... while he may have shown periods of concerted
> effort and perhaps flashes of college-level reading
you have no idea what his reading skills are.
> and speaking
> skills,
i'll give you that he is not the greatest public speaker. there are a lot
of very intelligent hard working people who can't speak well in public.
> those are not the overall story of his life as I've known
> it, and ultimately, it seems to have been one of privelege and
> hidden (or not-so-hidden) low intelligence.
did you see that round of information that he actually has a higher IQ
than kerry based on, i believe it was, a military IQ test? you have no
idea what his intelligence level is, but i stand by my assertion that you
don't get to where he is with low intelligence.
> This is of course only an informed opinion, and I've got a strong hunch
> yours will be different. That's hard for me to understand, but okay.
informed based on what? have you had a conversation with him? have you
given him an IQ test? do you know him personally?
>
>> a lot of people
>> know people and get advantages because of it. that doesn't
> mean that they
>> succeed.
>
> Flawed logic here ... while your above statement (for some actors, if X
> & Y, A) may be true, the implicit statement (for this actor, not A, so
> not X & Y) is illogical.
no flawed logic. as stated, a lot of people have the advantages of bush
and don't succeed in life. you have to do something right in order to get
to where bush is. you don't just stumble into the presidency.
>
> -Brendon
potatoman
> what exactly does any of that have to do with her political career? do
> you really think should would be the senator from new york (or anyone in
> new york would even have heard of her) is she wasn't bill's wife? do you
> think she would have a shot to run for president if she wasn't bill's wife?
>
> btw, according to:
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hillary_Clinton#Early_life.2C_education.2C_and_career
>
> "she describes her upbringing in Park Ridge as 'middle class'"
>
> why do you change that to say "below middle class?" wonder how accurate
> the rest of your post is, or is it all, as you say, "spin"
just going by the memory of the biography I read. poor memory I guess,
but actually now that I've refreshed my memory by doing a quick google,
it was her father's family who was below middle class and, after having
to live that tough life, instilled in his children an ethic of hard
work, which you are completely ignoring in her.
Either way, you've got a fuckin' agenda against her and everybody else
who isn't a republican. With her intelligence and hard work, hillary
clinton was destined to be a success, politcally or otherwise, whether
she was married to someone with similar traits or not. you pick out one
detail in my post and claim that that's suspician that Hillary is only
successful because she was married to Bill. Instead of doing that why
don't you take five fucking minues of your life to be unbiased and read
a quick biography of the woman to see for yourself. Or you can keep
listening to Rush and think that she's a spoiled bitch.
http://www.whitehouse.gov/history/firstladies/hc42.html
She certainly was no C student and wasn't handed an oil well and
baseball team at high-school graduation. Before Bill was even running
for governer of arkansas, Hillary was heavily involved in politics. I'm
not going to go through the whole biography here. Read the link and look
at how much she accomplished before he husband was even a household name
in Arkansas and then try and say that you honestly don't think there is
a high probability that she would've been politically successful.
You can say you don't like her, but to say that she is where she is
because of 'connections' is more ignorant than most of the bullshit you
spout around here. If you're going to pick someone who was born with a
silver spoon, go for Kerry. He fits it much more than most people.
i'm not in this thread for any other reason than to point out, yet
again, to everyone else how biased and agenda oriented you are. I'm
certainly not coming in to have any kind of intelligent discussion with
you. you always have to have the last word, no matter how ignorant it is.
so let's hear that last word on how hillary wouldn't have gotten where
she is without bill. I'm sure we will all be enlightened.
i'm done.
Brendon M. Troy
No Names Please
> No Names Please wrote:
>> On Mon, 24 Jan 2005 10:30:39 -0800, BoMaGoSh Yndit wrote:
>>
>> your own arguments don't prove your conclusion. even if one believes
>> what you have said to be unbiased/un-spun truth, many of the
> instances
>> involved no direct involvement of his family and no strings pulled by
> his
>> family as you claim.
>
> I apologize. In some instances listed, his family didn't even have to
> call.
>>
>> i'm curious, do you feel the same about hillary, who has gotten to
> where
>> she is because she is the wife of bill? or for that matter kennedy.
>> where would he be without his name and connections? oh yeah, in
> jail.
>
> Hilary Clinton was already at Yale before she met Bill, and as far as I
> know she got there, as did Bill, entirely on merit. She went on to a
> career as a successful attorney in Little Rock before and after Bill
> ran for office in Arkansas. I would say that she would not have been
> elected to the Senate in New York if she had not been the First Lady,
> so she got one job out of who she married.
one job so far.
> That's a bit different from
> getting every school admission,
every school admission? you have proof of that?
> admission to the Guard,
got proof of this? or are you going by the forged docs?
> all of his
> private sector jobs
this getting redundant. got proof of this?
> and his elective offices primarily because of his
> family name or connections.
he got his elected office primarily because people voted for him.
> And to get back to the whole point here -- the question raised was
> whether Bush holding degrees from Yale and Harvard showed that he was a
> smart guy. Nobody that I know of has said that Hillary Clinton isn't a
> smart person -- she got into Yale on her grades.
why do you attack bush, then discard the whole argument when talking about
hillary saying that stuff doesn't count? and i don't care who your family
is, stupid people don't get degrees from both yale and harvard and go on
to become president of the US. lets through in learning to fly a fighter
jet. again something stupid people (or people that don't work hard) don't
tend to excel at.
>
> I'd agree that Senator Kennedy similarly benefitted from being the son
> of a prominent family to get into colleges and jobs. Of course, he
> actually DID serve as a PFC in the US Army.
bush volunteered for and served in the military. he served for a longer
time than kennedy did.
> But putting that aside, I
> guess I agree with you that both Kennedy and GW Bush sucked off a silver
> spoon and benefitted significantly from who their daddies were.
wow, that is a surprising admission. so do you hate kennedy for it or is
there double standard?
personally i don't hate kennedy or even hillary for using connections to
get ahead. that is what most people would do.
kiwi
>>That's a bit different from
>>getting every school admission,
> every school admission? you have proof of that?
you're really stretching aren't you?
yes, who knows if he would have gotten in if he didn't have the
connections he did, because he DID have the connections and that can't
be changed.
kids get into schools every day that they don't necessarily deserve to
go to based on grades alone... based on legacy.
but if your parents are prestigious grads from that school, especially
if they're in politics or are rich... they're basically given their
acceptance letter right at birth.
kiwi
> so since we don't know what would have happened without his connections,
> we should just assume that he only got in because of his connections?
> that is sort of guilty until proven innocent isn't it?
nope. i'm sure you knew some kids in high school who went places they
didn't deserve to go... becuase mommy and/or daddy went there.
it's like affirmative action for well off people ;-)
No Names Please
> No Names Please wrote:
>>>That's a bit different from
>>>getting every school admission,
>> every school admission? you have proof of that?
>
> you're really stretching aren't you?
>
> yes, who knows if he would have gotten in if he didn't have the
> connections he did, because he DID have the connections and that can't
> be changed.
so since we don't know what would have happened without his connections,
we should just assume that he only got in because of his connections?
that is sort of guilty until proven innocent isn't it?
>
> kids get into schools every day that they don't necessarily deserve to
> go to based on grades alone... based on legacy.
yes they do, so why do you hold it against him?
>
> but if your parents are prestigious grads from that school, especially
> if they're in politics or are rich... they're basically given their
> acceptance letter right at birth.
that explains yale, now how about harvard.
No Names Please
> No Names Please wrote:
>> so since we don't know what would have happened without his connections,
>> we should just assume that he only got in because of his connections?
>> that is sort of guilty until proven innocent isn't it?
>
> nope. i'm sure you knew some kids in high school who went places they
> didn't deserve to go... becuase mommy and/or daddy went there.
oh, i take my argument back. i didn't realize you went to high school
with bush and know him well enough to know that is the only reason he got
into places.
btw, i know people who got into places they didn't deserve and failed.
whether or not he deserved to go to yale, he still earned a degree and
went on to get an MBA from harvard.
i also know people who went where mommy and/or daddy went and deserved to
be there. i don't know if bush's case how he got in, but i don't presume
him guilty until proved innocent. you say "nope" but that is exactly what
you are doing.
>
> it's like affirmative action for well off people ;-)
so you think affirmative action gets people into places they don't belong?
at least we agree on that.
Egyptienne.
> do you really think should would be the senator from new york (or anyone in
> new york would even have heard of her) is she wasn't bill's wife?
Yes.
> do you
> think she would have a shot to run for president if she wasn't bill's wife?
Yes.
--
nothing here to fear
i'm just sitting around being foolish
when there is work to be done
-tori amos
http://geezohpetes.blogspot.com
[reverse my name to reply]
Egyptienne.
> do you feel the same about hillary, who has gotten to where
> she is because she is the wife of bill?
No way. She's brilliant on her own accord.
BoMaGoSh Yndit
news:pan.2005.01.24....@zaldo.comnospam...
> On Mon, 24 Jan 2005 14:23:48 -0800, BoMaGoSh Yndit wrote:
>
>> No Names Please wrote:
>>> On Mon, 24 Jan 2005 10:30:39 -0800, BoMaGoSh Yndit wrote:
>>>
>>> your own arguments don't prove your conclusion. even if one believes
>>> what you have said to be unbiased/un-spun truth, many of the
>> instances
>>> involved no direct involvement of his family and no strings pulled by
>> his
>>> family as you claim.
>>
>> I apologize. In some instances listed, his family didn't even have to
>> call.
>>>
>>> i'm curious, do you feel the same about hillary, who has gotten to
>> where
>>> she is because she is the wife of bill? or for that matter kennedy.
>>> where would he be without his name and connections? oh yeah, in
>> jail.
>>
>> Hilary Clinton was already at Yale before she met Bill, and as far as I
>> know she got there, as did Bill, entirely on merit. She went on to a
>> career as a successful attorney in Little Rock before and after Bill
>> ran for office in Arkansas. I would say that she would not have been
>> elected to the Senate in New York if she had not been the First Lady,
>> so she got one job out of who she married.
>
> one job so far.
>
family's influence -- though in fact, while Clinton was elected to the
Senate because she was married to Bill Clinton, she had a public persona
independent of Bill (particularly after Monica). Bush has had 4 private
sector jobs, and 3 public sector jobs (including the Guard) and each of them
were the result of friends of his dad investing money or influence on his
behalf. Before his first elective office, he was George Bush's son who was
a part owner in the Rangers.
>> That's a bit different from
>> getting every school admission,
>
> every school admission? you have proof of that?
>
He's acknowledged that he wasn't a good student, either at prep school or at
Yale. Either Yale and Harvard suddenly made an exception in their otherwise
highly, highly competetive admissions process, or Bush got special
treatment.
>> admission to the Guard,
>
> got proof of this? or are you going by the forged docs?
>
Former Lt.Governor Ben Barnes said that he made calls to the guard on Bush's
behalf. The elder GHW Bush has acknowledged that calls were made to get GWB
in. The fake documents were about his service IN the guard, not how he got
in.
>> all of his
>> private sector jobs
>
> this getting redundant. got proof of this?
>
I listed the investors in Bush's company. There are two possibilities. A)
a prominent New York conservative and one of George HW Bush's school chums,
in an astounding and baffling coincidence, both independently decided to
invest in a startup company owned by a recent Harvard B-School grad named
George Walker Bush, never realizing that this GW Bush and GHW Bush the
former RNC chair were related to each other; or B) GHW Bush made some calls
to help line up investors for his kid's business.
Now -- don't get me wrong. I don't think it's either immoral or illegal to
do this. On the contrary, I think GHW Bush was doing what he should do as a
father, and I have no doubt that GW Bush was grateful to his old man for
setting him up in business. My only point is that, in terms of a
recognition of GW Bush's capabilities, getting a top job in a company this
way isn't the same as getting one by working your way up by dint of your own
merit. Bush started at the top every time -- he's never had to prove
himself in order to get investors, or political backers.
>> and his elective offices primarily because of his
>> family name or connections.
>
> he got his elected office primarily because people voted for him.
>
True enough, but before that, he had to be nominated, and before that he had
to have people willing to express their support for him through the party
process. And it's not often that managing minor partners in baseball
franchises, who are former failed oil company executives, get to stand for
election to the state's top office without ever having to win a single
election.
>> And to get back to the whole point here -- the question raised was
>> whether Bush holding degrees from Yale and Harvard showed that he was a
>> smart guy. Nobody that I know of has said that Hillary Clinton isn't a
>> smart person -- she got into Yale on her grades.
>
> why do you attack bush, then discard the whole argument when talking about
> hillary saying that stuff doesn't count?
Because she didn't get into college or get her law career from being married
to Bill Clinton. She didn't even know him when she went to college. She
had a career going in politics on her own before Clinton was ever elected to
anything -- she was a counsel on the House Watergate Committee in the 70's.
I acknowledged the one job that lead from being married to Clinton -- her
current one. That's a big difference from spending a lifetime getting one
thing after another from the name on your birth certificate or from your dad
calling his friends on your behalf.
> and i don't care who your family
> is, stupid people don't get degrees from both yale and harvard and go on
> to become president of the US. lets through in learning to fly a fighter
> jet. again something stupid people (or people that don't work hard) don't
> tend to excel at.
>
I don't recall arguing in this thread that Bush got into Yale despite being
stupid. He got into Yale despite not having the grades that people who's
family didn't have connections to the school would need to have to get in.
And he didn't excel -- he was a C student, and he's acknowledged that. As
for learning to fly a fighter jet proving that he's smart -- well, sure.
He's smart enough to fly a fighter jet. But he had to have the Lt.Governor
of Texas call to get him the chance to learn to do it.
>>
>> I'd agree that Senator Kennedy similarly benefitted from being the son
>> of a prominent family to get into colleges and jobs. Of course, he
>> actually DID serve as a PFC in the US Army.
>
> bush volunteered for and served in the military. he served for a longer
> time than kennedy did.
>
Kennedy served in active duty, which has a shorter term of enlistment. When
you say Bush served longer, are you counting the period when there are no
records of his showing up?
>> But putting that aside, I
>> guess I agree with you that both Kennedy and GW Bush sucked off a silver
>> spoon and benefitted significantly from who their daddies were.
>
> wow, that is a surprising admission. so do you hate kennedy for it or is
> there double standard?
>
I don't hate Bush or Kennedy for it. I just don't want people to give Bush
credit (as was done up the thread a ways) for being a really smart guy
because he got a degree from a presigious college, because rich people with
connections are able to get things like this handed to them.
> personally i don't hate kennedy or even hillary for using connections to
> get ahead. that is what most people would do.
Sure. I do it too, and I'm sure you do. Of course, the connections I have
are because people worked with me, got to know my work, and decided to hire
me, or recommended me to someone else. That's a little different than
someone knowing my father and hiring me because my father asked them to.
BoMaGoSh Yndit
> oh, i take my argument back. i didn't realize you went to high school
> with bush and know him well enough to know that is the only reason he got
> into places.
>
Bush didn't go to high school. He went to "prep" school.
> btw, i know people who got into places they didn't deserve and failed.
> whether or not he deserved to go to yale, he still earned a degree and
> went on to get an MBA from harvard.
>
> i also know people who went where mommy and/or daddy went and deserved to
> be there. i don't know if bush's case how he got in, but i don't presume
> him guilty until proved innocent. you say "nope" but that is exactly what
> you are doing.
>
Bush has acknowledged that his grades throughout prep school and college
were in the "C" range -- I gave his exact GPA in college above.
kiwi
> so you think affirmative action gets people into places they don't belong?
> at least we agree on that.
Yep, I guess we can leave it at that. hah
Thin Man
No Names Please
> "No Names Please" <gameh...@zaldo.comnospam> wrote in message
> news:pan.2005.01.25....@zaldo.comnospam...
>
>> oh, i take my argument back. i didn't realize you went to high school
>> with bush and know him well enough to know that is the only reason he got
>> into places.
>>
> Bush didn't go to high school. He went to "prep" school.
he went to phillips school in andover, which is described as a "liberal
arts high school," note the words, "high school"
by the way, phillips was a big feeder school for yale and other elite
schools. it could very well be that he got into yale because of having
been there.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phillips_Academy
>
>> btw, i know people who got into places they didn't deserve and failed.
>> whether or not he deserved to go to yale, he still earned a degree and
>> went on to get an MBA from harvard.
>>
>> i also know people who went where mommy and/or daddy went and deserved
>> to be there. i don't know if bush's case how he got in, but i don't
>> presume him guilty until proved innocent. you say "nope" but that is
>> exactly what you are doing.
>>
> Bush has acknowledged that his grades throughout prep school and college
> were in the "C" range -- I gave his exact GPA in college above.
last i checked, C was a passing grade
JB
> No Names Please wrote:
>
>>
>> i'm curious, do you feel the same about hillary, who has gotten to where
>> she is because she is the wife of bill?
>
>
> you should read Hillary Clinton's biography before you start throwing
> her name into any of your bullshit propaganda.
hahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!
I did read Hillary's book. From cover to cover, it is nothing but
bullshit propoganda.
You're naive if you believe otherwise.
Matt
: On Tue, 25 Jan 2005 02:39:36 +0000, BoMaGoSh Yndit wrote:
: > "No Names Please" <gameh...@zaldo.comnospam> wrote in message
: > news:pan.2005.01.25....@zaldo.comnospam...
: >
: >> oh, i take my argument back. i didn't realize you went to high school
: >> with bush and know him well enough to know that is the only reason he got
: >> into places.
: >>
: > Bush didn't go to high school. He went to "prep" school.
: he went to phillips school in andover, which is described as a "liberal
: arts high school," note the words, "high school"
why split hairs and deflect? according to my dictionary,
prepatory school, n.: A usually private secondary school that prepares
students for college.
GW went to prep school. what's wrong with admitting it? dropping 'prep'
from their advertising seems kinda PC, since the 'prep' connotes affluence
and privilege, ala 'preppy'.
: > Bush has acknowledged that his grades throughout prep school and college
: > were in the "C" range -- I gave his exact GPA in college above.
: last i checked, C was a passing grade
then you won't mind when the people on this newsgroup grade his presidency
that way.
JB
> No Names Please wrote:
>
>> do you feel the same about hillary, who has gotten to where
>> she is because she is the wife of bill?
>
>
> No way. She's brilliant on her own accord.
>
Shit. I just threw up all over my computer.....
JB
> JB wrote:
>
>> And, fwiw, GWB has degrees from Harvard and Yale. Can you say the same?
>
>
> I can't believe ANYONE would use this argument, heh...
>
> Do you actually think he EARNED those degrees? Take away his name, his
> family members going there, the fact that his family is a big name in
> politics... and do you think he coulda gotten in?
>
> He's led a privileged life, a life he was born into.
>
Did you actually EARN any degrees you hold? Of course you did....
On what facts are you basing your judgement that he did not EARN his
degrees? Even if he was a C student, he still passed and received his
degrees. Ivy League schools have a history of admitting legacy
applicants. That's nothing new, and GWB is certainly not the first to
receive such treatment. However, admission does not guarantee a degree.
I know plenty of people who got into great colleges, but could not
handle the workload and dropped out.
IMO, you're just jealous. You wish your name was Bush.
No Names Please
all i was talking about was her political career. i don't know what
influences she used to get her private sector jobs.
> though in fact, while Clinton was elected to the
> Senate because she was married to Bill Clinton, she had a public persona
> independent of Bill (particularly after Monica). Bush has had 4 private
> sector jobs, and 3 public sector jobs (including the Guard) and each of them
> were the result of friends of his dad investing money or influence on
> his behalf. Before his first elective office, he was George Bush's son
> who was a part owner in the Rangers.
so what you are saying is that the son of any president can easily become
a governor? that is quite a leap.
>
>>> That's a bit different from
>>> getting every school admission,
>>
>> every school admission? you have proof of that?
>>
> He's acknowledged that he wasn't a good student, either at prep school or at
> Yale. Either Yale and Harvard suddenly made an exception in their otherwise
> highly, highly competetive admissions process, or Bush got special
> treatment.
bush came from a prep school that was a big feeder for yale. they
probably do have a different admissions process for students coming from
that school. my high school (public school) which was not far from yale
had "ins" that made it easier to get into yale, then say princeton or
harvard for example.
>
>>> admission to the Guard,
>>
>> got proof of this? or are you going by the forged docs?
>>
> Former Lt.Governor Ben Barnes said that he made calls to the guard on Bush's
> behalf.
he also said bush didn't ask for it. it is also not clear that
general rose, who barnes called even made the decision to admit bush so
the call may have made no difference whatsoever.
> The elder GHW Bush has acknowledged that calls were made to get GWB
> in. The fake documents were about his service IN the guard, not how he got
> in.
>
>>> all of his
>>> private sector jobs
>>
>> this getting redundant. got proof of this?
>>
> I listed the investors in Bush's company. There are two possibilities. A)
> a prominent New York conservative and one of George HW Bush's school chums,
> in an astounding and baffling coincidence, both independently decided to
> invest in a startup company owned by a recent Harvard B-School grad named
> George Walker Bush, never realizing that this GW Bush and GHW Bush the
> former RNC chair were related to each other; or B) GHW Bush made some calls
> to help line up investors for his kid's business.
did bush's dad ask him to do this? you claimed direct involvement of the
family to get him every job he had.
>
> Now -- don't get me wrong. I don't think it's either immoral or illegal to
> do this. On the contrary, I think GHW Bush was doing what he should do as a
> father, and I have no doubt that GW Bush was grateful to his old man for
> setting him up in business. My only point is that, in terms of a
> recognition of GW Bush's capabilities, getting a top job in a company this
> way isn't the same as getting one by working your way up by dint of your own
> merit. Bush started at the top every time -- he's never had to prove
> himself in order to get investors, or political backers.
in the business world, that works once. you need to show some success or
people don't keep throwing money at you. doesn't matter how you get to
where you are, you still need to succeed.
>>> and his elective offices primarily because of his
>>> family name or connections.
>>
>> he got his elected office primarily because people voted for him.
>>
> True enough, but before that, he had to be nominated, and before that he had
> to have people willing to express their support for him through the party
> process. And it's not often that managing minor partners in baseball
> franchises, who are former failed oil company executives, get to stand for
> election to the state's top office without ever having to win a single
> election.
stranger things have happened.
>
>>> And to get back to the whole point here -- the question raised was
>>> whether Bush holding degrees from Yale and Harvard showed that he was a
>>> smart guy. Nobody that I know of has said that Hillary Clinton isn't a
>>> smart person -- she got into Yale on her grades.
>>
>> why do you attack bush, then discard the whole argument when talking about
>> hillary saying that stuff doesn't count?
>
> Because she didn't get into college or get her law career from being married
> to Bill Clinton. She didn't even know him when she went to college.
i didn't say that she did. i made a specific point about her political
career. perhaps if she gets the nomination, we will find out how she got
into school or how she got her job or how she advanced in her career
because her husband was governor.
> She
> had a career going in politics on her own before Clinton was ever
> elected to anything -- she was a counsel on the House Watergate
> Committee in the 70's. I acknowledged the one job that lead from being
> married to Clinton -- her current one. That's a big difference from
> spending a lifetime getting one thing after another from the name on
> your birth certificate or from your dad calling his friends on your
> behalf.
you really sound jealous of bush. he can't help who is and he still had
to succeed in order to move ahead.
>
>> and i don't care who your family
>> is, stupid people don't get degrees from both yale and harvard and go
>> on to become president of the US. lets through in learning to fly a
>> fighter jet. again something stupid people (or people that don't work
>> hard) don't tend to excel at.
>>
> I don't recall arguing in this thread that Bush got into Yale despite
> being stupid.
you didn't say stupid, but you were arguing against him being smart.
basically the same thing. do you recall that your original response was
to a post saying that bush is smart since he went to yale and harvard?
usually when you post an argument against something, you are arguing the
other side.
> He got into Yale despite not having the grades that people who's family
> didn't have connections to the school would need to have to get in.
there are other avenues in.
> And
> he didn't excel -- he was a C student, and he's acknowledged that.
may people consider a C at yale better than an A at some other schools.
> As
> for learning to fly a fighter jet proving that he's smart -- well, sure.
> He's smart enough to fly a fighter jet. But he had to have the
> Lt.Governor of Texas call to get him the chance to learn to do it.
you don't know that. you choose to jump to that conclusion. guilty of
all accusations, until proved innocent when it comes to bush.
yes an unprovoked call was made to a general that may not have even made
the decision to admit bush. wow, that is a smoking gun against bush.
>>>
>>> I'd agree that Senator Kennedy similarly benefitted from being the son
>>> of a prominent family to get into colleges and jobs. Of course, he
>>> actually DID serve as a PFC in the US Army.
>>
>> bush volunteered for and served in the military. he served for a
>> longer time than kennedy did.
>>
> Kennedy served in active duty, which has a shorter term of enlistment.
bush spent more time on active duty than kennedy did.
> When you say Bush served longer, are you counting the period when there
> are no records of his showing up?
you mean when he was excused? no i'm not counting that time.
>
>>> But putting that aside, I
>>> guess I agree with you that both Kennedy and GW Bush sucked off a
>>> silver spoon and benefitted significantly from who their daddies were.
>>
>> wow, that is a surprising admission. so do you hate kennedy for it or
>> is there double standard?
>>
> I don't hate Bush or Kennedy for it. I just don't want people to give
> Bush credit (as was done up the thread a ways) for being a really smart
> guy because he got a degree from a presigious college, because rich
> people with connections are able to get things like this handed to them.
that may help get you in, you still have to succeed on your own.
>
>> personally i don't hate kennedy or even hillary for using connections
>> to get ahead. that is what most people would do.
>
> Sure. I do it too, and I'm sure you do. Of course, the connections I
> have are because people worked with me, got to know my work, and decided
> to hire me, or recommended me to someone else. That's a little
> different than someone knowing my father and hiring me because my father
> asked them to.
again, you sound jealous of what bush, kennedy, etc. had. regardless of
how they got to where they are, they still had to succeed on their own.
No Names Please
> No Names Please wrote:
>
>> do you really think should would be the senator from new york (or anyone in
>> new york would even have heard of her) is she wasn't bill's wife?
>
> Yes.
based on what, other than a pure partisan answer? who in NY even heard of
her before bill was president?
>
>> do you
>> think she would have a shot to run for president if she wasn't bill's
>> wife?
>
> Yes.
again, based on what?
JB
> : > Bush didn't go to high school. He went to "prep" school.
>
> : he went to phillips school in andover, which is described as a "liberal
> : arts high school," note the words, "high school"
>
> why split hairs and deflect? according to my dictionary,
>
> prepatory school, n.: A usually private secondary school that prepares
> students for college.
First of all, it's prepARatory school. And, obviously, you didn't
attend one. Perhaps if you had paid more attention in high school, you
would know the proper spelling and pronunciation of the word. Or, is
that how your dictionary spelled it?
Funny that Phillips defines itself as a "high school" not a "preparatory
school", yet you insist on calling it the latter.
But I'm splitting hairs and deflecting......
dig under rocks
"JB" <nor...@spamsucks.com> wrote in message
news:SemdneAeJa1...@rcn.net...
Oh what the hell are you two arguing about!???
It's like you're fighting about pubes or something......
Brendon M. Troy
> : > Bush has acknowledged that his grades throughout prep
school and college
> : > were in the "C" range -- I gave his exact GPA in college
above.
>
> : last i checked, C was a passing grade
>
> then you won't mind when the people on this newsgroup grade his
presidency
> that way.
Thank Gawd there's still some humor to be found in this thread
... good line, Matt.
-Brendon
kiwi
> Shit. I just threw up all over my computer.....
Awesome, did it short out your keyboard so you can't post your pro-Bush
garbage? ;-)
kiwi
> However, admission does not guarantee a degree.
If you have the right last name, yes, you basically are. Unless you
don't hand anything in, don't go to any tests, etc.
It can't be proven, but I'd be willing to bet that he breezed through
college with little to no studying, becuase since he led a privileged
life, he knew he didn't have to.
No Names Please
> No Names Please <gameh...@zaldo.comnospam> wrote:
> : On Tue, 25 Jan 2005 02:39:36 +0000, BoMaGoSh Yndit wrote:
>
> : > "No Names Please" <gameh...@zaldo.comnospam> wrote in message
> : > news:pan.2005.01.25....@zaldo.comnospam...
> : >
> : >> oh, i take my argument back. i didn't realize you went to high school
> : >> with bush and know him well enough to know that is the only reason he got
> : >> into places.
> : >>
> : > Bush didn't go to high school. He went to "prep" school.
>
> : he went to phillips school in andover, which is described as a "liberal
> : arts high school," note the words, "high school"
>
> why split hairs and deflect? according to my dictionary,
>
> prepatory school, n.: A usually private secondary school that prepares
> students for college.
>
> GW went to prep school. what's wrong with admitting it? dropping 'prep'
> from their advertising seems kinda PC, since the 'prep' connotes affluence
> and privilege, ala 'preppy'.
i realize that no matter what he says, you will take boma's side, but
shouldn't this post be to him? he was the one splitting hairs, and that
is what i was pointing that out in my post. he was the one arguing prep
school-vs-high school. the prep school bush went to was a form of high
school and it was boma who was splitting hairs and deflecting. just that
fact that you ignored him doing it and instead accused me shows where you
are coming from.
so boma's quote "bush didn't go to high school" is wrong and that is all i
was saying. i don't deny that he went to a prep school, but i also didn't
want to let mis-information such as that go by without comment.
btw, that wasn't "advertising," it was an encyclopedia entry describing
the school.
>
> : > Bush has acknowledged that his grades throughout prep school and college
> : > were in the "C" range -- I gave his exact GPA in college above.
>
> : last i checked, C was a passing grade
>
> then you won't mind when the people on this newsgroup grade his presidency
> that way.
with the number of liberals on this newsgroup, i would be amazed if they
gave any republican a C.
BoMaGoSh Yndit
> On Tue, 25 Jan 2005 02:39:36 +0000, BoMaGoSh Yndit wrote:
> > Bush didn't go to high school. He went to "prep" school.
>
> he went to phillips school in andover, which is described as a
"liberal
> arts high school," note the words, "high school"
>
> by the way, phillips was a big feeder school for yale and other elite
> schools. it could very well be that he got into yale because of
having
> been there.
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phillips_Academy
>
prep school is "a private secondary school."
As for Phillips being a feeder school for Yale -- sure it is. The same
people whose daddies went to Phillips (as GHW Bush did) are legacies at
Yale as well. They're elite schools and really until the GI bill only
the elite were going to college. Bush is from a family of elites going
back generations, and Yale in the early 60's was still quite willing to
allow admissions to people on the basis of family ties to the
institution.
Bush has talked about legacy preferences at the Unity: Journalists of
Color convention in August. Now he opposes them. But their existence
is undeniable, and Bush's mediocre grades and test scores would never
have academically qualified him for admission to Yale on merit alone.
> >
> >> btw, i know people who got into places they didn't deserve and
failed.
> >> whether or not he deserved to go to yale, he still earned a degree
and
> >> went on to get an MBA from harvard.
> >>
> >> i also know people who went where mommy and/or daddy went and
deserved
> >> to be there. i don't know if bush's case how he got in, but i
don't
> >> presume him guilty until proved innocent. you say "nope" but that
is
> >> exactly what you are doing.
> >>
> > Bush has acknowledged that his grades throughout prep school and
college
> > were in the "C" range -- I gave his exact GPA in college above.
>
> last i checked, C was a passing grade
Sure is. Doesn't get you into Yale, though. Yale currently accepts
only about 10% of applicants, and more than 90% are in the top 10% of
their class. At the low end Yale is admitting students with SAT scores
of 1350. Bush's combined SAT score was 1206, though with the
"recentering" of the scores in the mid-90's to make up for the
continued drop in test scores, Bush would have the equivalent of a
1280. Not a bad score, and not suggesting that Bush is an idiot (which
was not my point) -- just saying that Bush got into Yale because his
dad and grandfather went there, and could not have been admitted if he
was, say, the son of an alcoholic from Hope, Arkansas.
Personally, I'm not all that impressed with the Ivy Leaguers I know --
I think we'd be better off if we were to get a president who wasn't
from an elite institution -- like maybe Hamilton College. . .
Matt
: > No Names Please <gameh...@zaldo.comnospam> wrote:
: > : On Tue, 25 Jan 2005 02:39:36 +0000, BoMaGoSh Yndit wrote:
: >
: > : > "No Names Please" <gameh...@zaldo.comnospam> wrote in message
: > : > news:pan.2005.01.25....@zaldo.comnospam...
: > : >
: > : >> oh, i take my argument back. i didn't realize you went to high school
: > : >> with bush and know him well enough to know that is the only reason he got
: > : >> into places.
: > : >>
: > : > Bush didn't go to high school. He went to "prep" school.
: >
: > : he went to phillips school in andover, which is described as a "liberal
: > : arts high school," note the words, "high school"
: >
: > why split hairs and deflect? according to my dictionary,
: >
: > prepatory school, n.: A usually private secondary school that prepares
: > students for college.
: >
: > GW went to prep school. what's wrong with admitting it? dropping 'prep'
: > from their advertising seems kinda PC, since the 'prep' connotes affluence
: > and privilege, ala 'preppy'.
: i realize that no matter what he says, you will take boma's side, but
nope, faulty assumption. i only skimmed the thread, and have no idea who
started splitting HS hairs, nor do i care who i should be replying to about
it- i cared to show andover is a prep school, in addition to being a HS,
which i did.
: shouldn't this post be to him? he was the one splitting hairs, and that
: is what i was pointing that out in my post. he was the one arguing prep
: school-vs-high school. the prep school bush went to was a form of high
: school and it was boma who was splitting hairs and deflecting. just that
: fact that you ignored him doing it and instead accused me shows where you
: are coming from.
whatever, see above.
: so boma's quote "bush didn't go to high school" is wrong and that is all i
: was saying. i don't deny that he went to a prep school, but i also didn't
: want to let mis-information such as that go by without comment.
ok, so in not reading the history of the thread, i came down on your side,
without knowing it, showing that boma's stance on the issues is not
necessarily mine. as i said above. sorry to mess up your argument stream,
carry on.
: btw, that wasn't "advertising," it was an encyclopedia entry describing
: the school.
: >
: > : > Bush has acknowledged that his grades throughout prep school and college
: > : > were in the "C" range -- I gave his exact GPA in college above.
: >
: > : last i checked, C was a passing grade
: >
: > then you won't mind when the people on this newsgroup grade his presidency
: > that way.
: with the number of liberals on this newsgroup, i would be amazed if they
: gave any republican a C.
i'm amazed you stick around if you don't like anyone here. but i bet many
people like mccain, rudy, colin, heck even orin hatch has his moments. they
might just like the same ones many conservatives like. and i bet there are
local R-politicians people here like, but the're no fun to talk about.
JB
> JB wrote:
>
>> Shit. I just threw up all over my computer.....
>
>
> Awesome, did it short out your keyboard so you can't post your pro-Bush
> garbage? ;-)
>
No, but it suddenly is translating your posts into pro-Bush rhetoric.
There must be something wrong. I know you're a Communist....
No Names Please
>>
>> last i checked, C was a passing grade
>
> Sure is. Doesn't get you into Yale, though. Yale currently
"currently"
interesting. i didn't realize bush was applying to yale now. i thought
he started in 64.
> accepts
> only about 10% of applicants, and more than 90% are in the top 10% of
> their class. At the low end Yale is admitting students with SAT scores
> of 1350. Bush's combined SAT score was 1206, though with the
> "recentering" of the scores in the mid-90's to make up for the continued
> drop in test scores, Bush would have the equivalent of a 1280. Not a
> bad score, and not suggesting that Bush is an idiot (which was not my
> point) -- just saying that Bush got into Yale because his dad and
> grandfather went there, and could not have been admitted if he was, say,
> the son of an alcoholic from Hope, Arkansas.
perhaps, perhaps not. we'll never know for sure. he had other things
going for him, such as the feeder school that he went to. the fact is
that he did get into yale and no matter how he got in, he passed and
earned his degree.
No Names Please
> : > : last i checked, C was a passing grade
> : >
> : > then you won't mind when the people on this newsgroup grade his presidency
> : > that way.
>
> : with the number of liberals on this newsgroup, i would be amazed if they
> : gave any republican a C.
>
> i'm amazed you stick around if you don't like anyone here.
how did you jump to that conclusion? i don't dislike people just because
they are misguided politically. there are actually very few people here
that i dislike and imo, those people have earned it.
Matt
you contribute the most to political posts, representing the minority
viewpoint on this group- it would tire me, but maybe you like it? that's
cool, but i'd get frustrated. do you want to reguide the misguided? it's
like herding cats in here. i'm not knocking your preferences though, keep
going, we all love it ;)
No Names Please
> No Names Please <gameh...@zaldo.comnospam> wrote:
> : On Tue, 25 Jan 2005 15:51:11 +0000, Matt wrote:
>
>
> : > : > : last i checked, C was a passing grade
> : > : >
> : > : > then you won't mind when the people on this newsgroup grade his presidency
> : > : > that way.
> : >
> : > : with the number of liberals on this newsgroup, i would be amazed if they
> : > : gave any republican a C.
> : >
> : > i'm amazed you stick around if you don't like anyone here.
>
> : how did you jump to that conclusion? i don't dislike people just because
> : they are misguided politically. there are actually very few people here
> : that i dislike and imo, those people have earned it.
>
> you contribute the most to political posts, representing the minority
> viewpoint on this group- it would tire me,
that doesn't mean that i don't like anybody.
> but maybe you like it? that's
> cool, but i'd get frustrated. do you want to reguide the misguided?
nope, just pointing out the mis-information.
sort of on this topic, i had a interesting conversation with a buddy
of mine last night. he mentioned that in college, him and all his friends
were big time liberals. now that they are in the real world they have
become much more conservative and the "hate and crap" (his words) coming
from the left keep pushing him further away. while i was never a liberal,
i was much more down the middle and have also become more conservative
over time. if anything, my experiences here, have pushed me further to
the right.
> it's
> like herding cats in here. i'm not knocking your preferences though, keep
> going, we all love it ;)
it would be interesting to see how many of these cats (the younger ones)
change their view as they get into the real world.
BoMaGoSh Yndit
> On Tue, 25 Jan 2005 07:38:44 -0800, BoMaGoSh Yndit wrote:
>
>
> >>
> >> last i checked, C was a passing grade
> >
> > Sure is. Doesn't get you into Yale, though. Yale currently
>
> "currently"
>
> interesting. i didn't realize bush was applying to yale now. i
thought
> he started in 64.
>
It's not like Yale was a community college in the early 60's but
tightened up in recent years. If your argument is that getting C's
used to be good enough to get into Yale but now it's not, be more
explicit. My argument, explicitly, is that the only way a C student
was getting into Yale -- in 1964 or now -- is by getting around the
regular admission standards. And for a person was a legacy of two
generations of Bushes before him at Yale, Skull and Bones members, it's
clear that Bush took advantange of an opportunity that was open to him
to use his name to get into a better school than someone who wasn't
named Bush.
Back when Bush was applying, actually, Yale was in the process of
revising their legacy acceptance policies downward. When he got in it
was much easier than now for a person who was the son of an alumnus to
get accepted. But the change actually kicked in after Bush got accepted
(in 1967), and in any case, he would probably have gotten through even
the higher bar, since he was from a family of unusual influence and
significance -- his grandfather was not only the Senator from
Connecticut but also was a member of Yale's governing board. If a
member of the governing board can't get his grandson into the school,
there's not much point of being on the board. Now, I don't think it's
wrong that Bush got in that way -- as you point out, it's the way the
game was played back then, and people like Ted Kennedy and Al Gore
benefitted from the same old boy system -- but it's just not credible
to assert that Bush's mediocre grades and good but not great test
scores were enough to get him into one of the toughest institutions in
the country (then and now) on academic merit alone.
> > accepts
> > only about 10% of applicants, and more than 90% are in the top 10%
of
> > their class. At the low end Yale is admitting students with SAT
scores
> > of 1350. Bush's combined SAT score was 1206, though with the
> > "recentering" of the scores in the mid-90's to make up for the
continued
> > drop in test scores, Bush would have the equivalent of a 1280. Not
a
> > bad score, and not suggesting that Bush is an idiot (which was not
my
> > point) -- just saying that Bush got into Yale because his dad and
> > grandfather went there, and could not have been admitted if he was,
say,
> > the son of an alcoholic from Hope, Arkansas.
>
> perhaps, perhaps not. we'll never know for sure. he had other
things
> going for him, such as the feeder school that he went to.
One more instance of preference that Bush (and other rich kids whose
parents can send them to boarding school) had and other people didn't.
To me the "feeder school" theory is indistinguishable from the "legacy
of being a Bush" theory -- they both meant that he got in despite his
grades and test results, not because of them.
> the fact is
> that he did get into yale and no matter how he got in, he passed and
> earned his degree.
Sure. And the reason this was brought up was because it was implied
that Bush having the degree implied that Bush was smarter than the
people on this board (the quote from JB was, "GWB has degrees from
Harvard and Yale. Can you say the same?") I can't say the same -- I
didn't apply at either of those schools -- but I had better grades and
test scores than Bush did.
BoMaGoSh Yndit
> On what facts are you basing your judgement that he did not EARN his
> degrees? Even if he was a C student, he still passed and received
his
> degrees. Ivy League schools have a history of admitting legacy
> applicants. That's nothing new, and GWB is certainly not the first
to
> receive such treatment. However, admission does not guarantee a
degree.
> I know plenty of people who got into great colleges, but could not
> handle the workload and dropped out.
>
Professors in the mid-60's -- not just at Yale, but everywhere -- were
aware of the fact that young men who flunk out of school were
immediately eligible for military service. There was a well known
phenomenon during the years that Bush was in college of grade inflation
because profs were not interested in being responsible for a young man
flunking out and potentially going to his death in a war.
That's not to say that Bush necessarily benefitted from grade inflation
-- but you don't prove that Bush was Yale material because he was able
to stick it out.
BoMaGoSh Yndit
> On Tue, 25 Jan 2005 16:27:28 +0000, Matt wrote:
>
> > : > i'm amazed you stick around if you don't like anyone here.
> >
> > : how did you jump to that conclusion? i don't dislike people just
because
> > : they are misguided politically. there are actually very few
people here
> > : that i dislike and imo, those people have earned it.
> >
> > you contribute the most to political posts, representing the
minority
> > viewpoint on this group- it would tire me,
>
> that doesn't mean that i don't like anybody.
>
I think we actually get along pretty well, at least lately.
No Names Please
> No Names Please wrote:
>> On Tue, 25 Jan 2005 07:38:44 -0800, BoMaGoSh Yndit wrote:
>>
>>
>> >>
>> >> last i checked, C was a passing grade
>> >
>> > Sure is. Doesn't get you into Yale, though. Yale currently
>>
>> "currently"
>>
>> interesting. i didn't realize bush was applying to yale now. i
> thought
>> he started in 64.
>>
> Yale has always been one of the most selective schools in the country.
> It's not like Yale was a community college in the early 60's but
> tightened up in recent years. If your argument is that getting C's
> used to be good enough to get into Yale but now it's not, be more
> explicit.
he got C's at yale. are you proposing that he should have been thrown
out? i've never seen anything showing C's at prep school.
> My argument, explicitly, is that the only way a C student was getting
> into Yale -- in 1964 or now -- is by getting around the regular
> admission standards. And for a person was a legacy of two generations
> of Bushes before him at Yale, Skull and Bones members, it's clear that
> Bush took advantange of an opportunity that was open to him to use his
> name to get into a better school than someone who wasn't named Bush.
and again, no matter how he got it, he earned his degree.
>
> Back when Bush was applying, actually, Yale was in the process of
> revising their legacy acceptance policies downward.
> When he got in it
> was much easier than now for a person who was the son of an alumnus to
> get accepted. But the change actually kicked in after Bush got accepted
> (in 1967), and in any case, he would probably have gotten through even
> the higher bar, since he was from a family of unusual influence and
> significance -- his grandfather was not only the Senator from
> Connecticut but also was a member of Yale's governing board.
or since he was coming from a yale feeder school.
> If a
> member of the governing board can't get his grandson into the school,
> there's not much point of being on the board. Now, I don't think it's
> wrong that Bush got in that way -- as you point out, it's the way the
> game was played back then, and people like Ted Kennedy and Al Gore
> benefitted from the same old boy system -- but it's just not credible to
> assert that Bush's mediocre grades and good but not great test scores
> were enough to get him into one of the toughest institutions in the
> country (then and now) on academic merit alone.
i never said that he got in on academic merit alone, however i am not
ready to jump to the conclusion that he got in on family influence alone
either.
>
>> > accepts
>> > only about 10% of applicants, and more than 90% are in the top 10%
> of
>> > their class. At the low end Yale is admitting students with SAT
> scores
>> > of 1350. Bush's combined SAT score was 1206, though with the
>> > "recentering" of the scores in the mid-90's to make up for the
> continued
>> > drop in test scores, Bush would have the equivalent of a 1280. Not
> a
>> > bad score, and not suggesting that Bush is an idiot (which was not
> my
>> > point) -- just saying that Bush got into Yale because his dad and
>> > grandfather went there, and could not have been admitted if he was,
> say,
>> > the son of an alcoholic from Hope, Arkansas.
>>
>> perhaps, perhaps not. we'll never know for sure. he had other
> things
>> going for him, such as the feeder school that he went to.
>
> One more instance of preference that Bush (and other rich kids whose
> parents can send them to boarding school) had and other people didn't.
> To me the "feeder school" theory is indistinguishable from the "legacy
> of being a Bush" theory -- they both meant that he got in despite his
> grades and test results, not because of them.
just like he earned a degree at yale, he earned his degree in the prep
school. i know someone who lived a life of privilege, went to a prep
school in andover (not sure if it is the same one) and wound up failing
out miserably. having the opportunity, doesn't mean success.
>
>> the fact is
>> that he did get into yale and no matter how he got in, he passed and
>> earned his degree.
>
> Sure. And the reason this was brought up was because it was implied
> that Bush having the degree implied that Bush was smarter than the
> people on this board (the quote from JB was, "GWB has degrees from
> Harvard and Yale. Can you say the same?") I can't say the same -- I
> didn't apply at either of those schools -- but I had better grades and
> test scores than Bush did.
it was implied that bush is intelligent because he has degrees from those
two schools. are you or are you not debating this? your all out attack
on him seems to say that you disagree that he is an intelligent person.
JB
> sort of on this topic, i had a interesting conversation with a buddy
> of mine last night. he mentioned that in college, him and all his friends
> were big time liberals. now that they are in the real world they have
> become much more conservative and the "hate and crap" (his words) coming
> from the left keep pushing him further away. while i was never a liberal,
> i was much more down the middle and have also become more conservative
> over time. if anything, my experiences here, have pushed me further to
> the right.
Believe it or not, I was also a raging liberal in college. I voted for
Dukakis in 1988, and I went to pro-choice rallies in Washington. Then,
the movement towards "political correctness" opened my eyes to what I
see as nothing less than an assault on free speech. That caused me to
start learning more about our founding fathers, our nation's history,
and I started paying much more attention to the matters of the day, and
started examining them under a different microscope. I am still
somewhat pro-choice (it should be a private decision, made between a
woman, her significant other, and her doctor. However, I am extrememly
opposed to abortion in the third trimester (the baby could easily suvive
on its own at that stage of development).
My wife also used to be very liberal. Her views changed when we got
real jobs (and started paying taxes), bought a home, and had children.
Now, we both agree on much more than we did when we first married.
>
>
> it would be interesting to see how many of these cats (the younger ones)
> change their view as they get into the real world.
>
I know I did. And I know many others who did, as well.
Liberals desire Utopia. Conservatives know it doesn't exist.
dig under rocks
dig under rocks
> Liberals desire Utopia. Conservatives know it doesn't exist.
So they support DOMA....?
No Names Please
> JB wrote:
>> On what facts are you basing your judgement that he did not EARN his
>> degrees? Even if he was a C student, he still passed and received
> his
>> degrees. Ivy League schools have a history of admitting legacy
>> applicants. That's nothing new, and GWB is certainly not the first
> to
>> receive such treatment. However, admission does not guarantee a
> degree.
>> I know plenty of people who got into great colleges, but could not
>> handle the workload and dropped out.
>>
> But there was a complicating factor at the time called the draft.
> Professors in the mid-60's -- not just at Yale, but everywhere -- were
> aware of the fact that young men who flunk out of school were
> immediately eligible for military service. There was a well known
> phenomenon during the years that Bush was in college of grade inflation
> because profs were not interested in being responsible for a young man
> flunking out and potentially going to his death in a war.
how many other conspiracy theories can you throw out?
>
> That's not to say that Bush necessarily benefitted from grade inflation
> -- but you don't prove that Bush was Yale material because he was able
> to stick it out.
wow. basically your are questioning bush because it can't be proved he's
worthy. more of that guilty until proven innocent stuff. i find it
interesting that liberals complain about enemy combatants, who were caught
on a battlefield, being presumed guilty, but have no problem assuming that
bush is guilty of anything.
the fact is, bush went to yale and harvard and he has degrees from yale
and harvard. unless you can prove otherwise, he must be considered yale
and harvard and for that matter, prep school, material.
No Names Please
>>
> I don't think NNP doesn't like anybody. He likes to argue. So do I.
> I think we actually get along pretty well, at least lately.
i'd agree, at least lately.
watch out for hell freezing over now, we've actually agreed 100% on
something :)
kiwi
> he got C's at yale. are you proposing that he should have been thrown
> out?
What he, and many others, are trying to say is that he shouldn't have
been there to get those C's in the first place.
JB
>>the fact is
>>that he did get into yale and no matter how he got in, he passed and
>>earned his degree.
>
>
> Sure. And the reason this was brought up was because it was implied
> that Bush having the degree implied that Bush was smarter than the
> people on this board (the quote from JB was, "GWB has degrees from
> Harvard and Yale. Can you say the same?")
Actually, my statement wasn't directed towards all the people on this
board (actually, I think that there are some people here with very high
levels of intelligence). My comments were directed towards the one
person (Fayza) who was making the claim that Jenna is "as bright as her
father". I think that making such statements, based on nothing more
than very limited information (which is filtered by a clearly biased
media) about individuals whom she has never met, is fairly ignorant.
I knew that someone (and I suspected it would be you, BoMa) would jump
all over me for that statement. I just never thought it would develop
into this level of debate.
kiwi
> and again, no matter how he got it, he earned his degree.
and again, that depends on your personal definition of "earned"
JB
I'm not trying to prove anything. I only stated a simple fact (GWB has
degrees from Harvard and Yale). I said nothing about the admission
process, his performance as a student, or whether he was given any
special treatment.
You're the one who is trying to prove that he was NOT "Yale material"
(despite the acknowledged fact that Ivy League schools have historically
given preference to legacy applicants). Now you're going so far as to
insinuate that professors were also in on various scams to keep students
out of Vietnam, and you make inference that Bush could easily have been
the beneficiary of such acts. I would like to see some documented
evidence of this "phenomenon" to which you refer, specifically at Yale.
No Names Please
> No Names Please wrote:
>> he got C's at yale. are you proposing that he should have been thrown
>> out?
>
> What he, and many others, are trying to say is that he shouldn't have
> been there to get those C's in the first place.
in real life, a lot of people get opportunities for reasons other than
going through normal channels. they still have to either succeed or fail.
although not a shining star, bush did succeed at yale. that is not an
easy task.
JB
Yes, they support the Defense Of Marriage Act.
No Names Please
> No Names Please wrote:
>> and again, no matter how he got it, he earned his degree.
>
> and again, that depends on your personal definition of "earned"
my definition of earned is that he went to the school, did his work and
left with a degree. are you saying otherwise? have we now jumped to the
conclusion that he was just given a degree without doing anything?
JB
> I think I'd rather bang Jenna.
I stand by my original assertion:
Barbara is hotter, but Jenna is probably better in bed.
;-)
dig under rocks
Because Utopia doesn't exist?
kiwi
> You're the one who is trying to prove that he was NOT "Yale material"
not harvard material:
The dunce
His former Harvard Business School professor recalls George W. Bush not
just as a terrible student but as spoiled, loutish and a pathological liar.
- - - - - - - - - - - -
By Mary Jacoby
Sept. 16, 2004 | For 25 years, Yoshi Tsurumi, one of George W. Bush's
professors at Harvard Business School, was content with his green-card
status as a permanent legal resident of the United States. But Bush's
ascension to the presidency in 2001 prompted the Japanese native to
secure his American citizenship. The reason: to be able to speak out
with the full authority of citizenship about why he believes Bush lacks
the character and intellect to lead the world's oldest and most powerful
democracy.
"I don't remember all the students in detail unless I'm prompted by
something," Tsurumi said in a telephone interview Wednesday. "But I
always remember two types of students. One is the very excellent
student, the type as a professor you feel honored to be working with.
Someone with strong social values, compassion and intellect -- the very
rare person you never forget. And then you remember students like George
Bush, those who are totally the opposite."
The future president was one of 85 first-year MBA students in Tsurumi's
macroeconomic policies and international business class in the fall of
1973 and spring of 1974. Tsurumi was a visiting associate professor at
Harvard Business School from January 1972 to August 1976; today, he is a
professor of international business at Baruch College in New York.
Trading as usual on his father's connections, Bush entered Harvard in
1973 for a two-year program. He'd just come off what George H.W. Bush
had once called his eldest son's "nomadic years" -- partying, drifting
from job to job, working on political campaigns in Florida and Alabama
and, most famously, apparently not showing up for duty in the Alabama
National Guard.
Harvard Business School's rigorous teaching methods, in which the
professor interacts aggressively with students, and students are
encouraged to challenge each other sharply, offered important insights
into Bush, Tsurumi said. In observing students' in-class performances,
"you develop pretty good ideas about what are their weaknesses and
strengths in terms of thinking, analysis, their prejudices, their
backgrounds and other things that students reveal," he said.
One of Tsurumi's standout students was Rep. Chris Cox, R-Calif., now the
seventh-ranking member of the House Republican leadership. "I typed him
as a conservative Republican with a conscience," Tsurumi said. "He never
confused his own ideology with economics, and he didn't try to hide his
ignorance of a subject in mumbo jumbo. He was what I call a principled
conservative." (Though clearly a partisan one. On Wednesday, Cox called
for a congressional investigation of the validity of documents that CBS
News obtained for a story questioning Bush's attendance at Guard duty in
Alabama.)
Bush, by contrast, "was totally the opposite of Chris Cox," Tsurumi
said. "He showed pathological lying habits and was in denial when
challenged on his prejudices and biases. He would even deny saying
something he just said 30 seconds ago. He was famous for that. Students
jumped on him; I challenged him." When asked to explain a particular
comment, said Tsurumi, Bush would respond, "Oh, I never said that." A
White House spokeswoman did not return a phone call seeking comment.
In 1973, as the oil and energy crisis raged, Tsurumi led a discussion on
whether government should assist retirees and other people on fixed
incomes with heating costs. Bush, he recalled, "made this ridiculous
statement and when I asked him to explain, he said, 'The government
doesn't have to help poor people -- because they are lazy.' I said,
'Well, could you explain that assumption?' Not only could he not explain
it, he started backtracking on it, saying, 'No, I didn't say that.'"
If Cox had been in the same class, Tsurumi said, "I could have asked him
to challenge that and he would have demolished it. Not personally or
emotionally, but intellectually."
Bush once sneered at Tsurumi for showing the film "The Grapes of Wrath,"
based on John Steinbeck's novel of the Depression. "We were in a
discussion of the New Deal, and he called Franklin Roosevelt's policies
'socialism.' He denounced labor unions, the Securities and Exchange
Commission, Medicare, Social Security, you name it. He denounced the
civil rights movement as socialism. To him, socialism and communism were
the same thing. And when challenged to explain his prejudice, he could
not defend his argument, either ideologically, polemically or academically."
Students who challenged and embarrassed Bush in class would then become
the subject of a whispering campaign by him, Tsurumi said. "In class, he
couldn't challenge them. But after class, he sometimes came up to me in
the hallway and started bad-mouthing those students who had challenged
him. He would complain that someone was drinking too much. It was
innuendo and lies. So that's how I knew, behind his smile and his smirk,
that he was a very insecure, cunning and vengeful guy."
Many of Tsurumi's students came from well-connected or wealthy families,
but good manners prevented them from boasting about it, the professor
said. But Bush seemed unabashed about the connections that had brought
him to Harvard. "The other children of the rich and famous were at least
well bred to the point of realizing universal values and standards of
behavior," Tsurumi said. But Bush sometimes came late to class and often
sat in the back row of the theater-like classroom, wearing a bomber
jacket from the Texas Air National Guard and spitting chewing tobacco
into a cup.
"At first, I wondered, 'Who is this George Bush?' It's a very common
name and I didn't know his background. And he was such a bad student
that I asked him once how he got in. He said, 'My dad has good
friends.'" Bush scored in the lowest 10 percent of the class.
The Vietnam War was still roiling campuses and Harvard was no exception.
Bush expressed strong support for the war but admitted to Tsurumi that
he'd gotten a coveted spot in the Texas Air National Guard through his
father's connections.
"I used to chat up a number of students when we were walking back to
class," Tsurumi said. "Here was Bush, wearing a Texas Guard bomber
jacket, and the draft was the No. 1 topic in those days. And I said,
'George, what did you do with the draft?' He said, 'Well, I got into the
Texas Air National Guard.' And I said, 'Lucky you. I understand there is
a long waiting list for it. How'd you get in?' When he told me, he
didn't seem ashamed or embarrassed. He thought he was entitled to all
kinds of privileges and special deals. He was not the only one trying to
twist all their connections to avoid Vietnam. But then, he was
fanatically for the war."
Tsurumi told Bush that someone who avoided a draft while supporting a
war in which others were dying was a hypocrite. "He realized he was
caught, showed his famous smirk and huffed off."
Tsurumi's conclusion: Bush is not as dumb as his detractors allege. "He
was just badly brought up, with no discipline, and no compassion," he said.
In recent days, Tsurumi has told his story to various print and
television outlets and appears in Kitty Kelley's exposé "The Family: The
Real Story of the Bush Dynasty." He said other professors and students
at the business school from that time share his recollections but are
afraid to come forward, fearing ostracism or retribution. And why is
Tsurumi speaking up now? Because with the ongoing bloodshed in Iraq and
Osama bin Laden still on the loose -- not to mention a federal deficit
ballooning out of control -- the stakes are too high to remain silent.
"Obviously, I don't think he is the best person" to be running the
country, he said. "I wanted to explain why."
kiwi
> although not a shining star, bush did succeed at yale. that is not an
> easy task.
says you.
kiwi
> my definition of earned is that he went to the school, did his work and
> left with a degree. are you saying otherwise? have we now jumped to the
> conclusion that he was just given a degree without doing anything?
who earned it more, him, or someone who legitimately got in without any
connections?
(and don't even say "they both earned it becuase they both got in")