It's The Little Things: Annoying Interpretations?
comes...@hotmail.com
so badly done, silly or just plain wrong that it makes you want to
scream, "WHY?!"
I have one: the Bernstein La Boheme, on DG. At the point in which
Musetta feigns a pain from a too-tight shoe, everything should be played
for comic effect and lightness with a sort of halfhearted squeal.
Instead, Barbara Daniels lets go this bloodcurdling scream. It's like
Klytemnestra. But even worse is, that Alcindoro is supposed to ask
"where?" in a flustered, stuttery way. Instead, whoever the hell he is,
he brings out this long, slow, descending "DOOOOHHHHH-vaaaaayyyy??
Grotesque. I listened to this about twice, realized it was impacting on
my health, and never again.
Is there anything you can think of that bugs you?
~ Roger
Charlie Handelman
people with a brain can think this man knows ANYTHING about singing Italian
Opera..and not only is the style all wrong..the voice is a total disaster..I
think this is a total travesty/./.CH
My best, Charlie.
My Website dedicated to the vocal art is located at:
daniel f. tritter
last 500 posts in which you told us how much you love fischer-dieskau.
my goodness! this comes as a great surprise. one of the first signs of
sclerotic conditions upstairs is the notion that everybody else is hard
of hearing. all this time, i had thought you one of fi-fi's most devoted
admirers.
=================================
MarianneLuban
>From: comes...@hotmail.com
>Date: 7/23/2004 8:09 AM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: <11861-410...@storefull-3234.bay.webtv.net>
>
>Do you find in some recording or other, a bit of interpretation that is
>so badly done, silly or just plain wrong that it makes you want to
>scream, "WHY?!"
>I have one: the Bernstein La Boheme, on DG. At the point in which
>Musetta feigns a pain from a too-tight shoe, everything should be played
>for comic effect and lightness with a sort of halfhearted squeal.
>Instead, Barbara Daniels lets go this bloodcurdling scream. It's like
>Klytemnestra.
LOL!
But even worse is, that Alcindoro is supposed to ask
>"where?" in a flustered, stuttery way. Instead, whoever the hell he is,
>he brings out this long, slow, descending "DOOOOHHHHH-vaaaaayyyy??
>Grotesque. I listened to this about twice, realized it was impacting on
>my health, and never again.
>Is there anything you can think of that bugs you?
>
Yes. The Callas "Carmen". Although I adore Callas, she is the most lifeless
Carmen I have ever heard on record. Because of her versatility, she could
handle the lower register and, given her fiery real life persona, one would
think she would fit this role a lot better than Musetta's shoe--but somehow
Callas is just boring. A few blood-curdling shrieks from her in the part would
have been welcome. Hard to fathom.
Now I love the opera "La Rondine" (okay, anything by Puccini) and thought Moffo
and Barioni (? why do I never remember how to spell this fine tenor's name?)
did a splendid job with it on an old LP I used to play constantly. But I
haven't had that record for a long time, so decided to purchase Alagna and
Gheorghiu's version. Also boring. One big lullaby. Why is it that this tenor
and soprano are always more interesting separately than when paired? I don't
get it.
GRNDPADAVE
(where the accent should be on the first syllable.
Repeatedly, Amelia sings: "mio po-VER-o cor." Somma should have provided a
text where Verdi would not have resorted to corrupt scansion. Probably the
fault was Verdi's.
==G/P Dave
Leonard Tillman
>Do you find in some recording or other, a bit of
> interpretation that is so badly done, silly or
> just plain wrong that it makes you want to
> scream, "WHY?!"
>I have one: the Bernstein La Boheme, on DG.
> At the point in which Musetta feigns a pain
> from a too-tight shoe, everything should be
> played for comic effect and lightness with a
> sort of halfhearted squeal. Instead, Barbara
> Daniels lets go this bloodcurdling scream. It's
> like Klytemnestra. But even worse is, that
> Alcindoro is supposed to ask "where?" in a
> flustered, stuttery way. Instead, whoever the
> hell he is, he brings out this long, slow,
> descending "DOOOOHHHHH-vaaaaayyyy??
> Grotesque.
Yes, - he could just as easily have bellowed, "OYYY vaaaaayyyyy!!!"
Would've gotten some laughs from his co-stars, -- and grimaces from LB.
>I listened to this about twice, realized it was
> impacting on my health, and never again.
>Is there anything you can think of that bugs
> you?
Another Alcindoro, in the '01 NYCO Boheme telecast with Villazon,
SLAPS Musetta before going off to get her some better footwear!
The fault is apparently the director's, not the performer's, -- but IMO
the stunt is all wrong.
The character is a dupe, not a brute!
>~ Roger
Leonard Tillman
Leonard Tillman
From: comes...@hotmail.com
>Do you find in some recording or other, a bit of
> interpretation that is so badly done, silly or
> just plain wrong that it makes you want to
> scream, "WHY?!"
>I have one: the Bernstein La Boheme, on DG.
Re another Boheme, Toscanini's:
This doesn't count as an "interpretation", but the Maestro audibly hums
or "croons" along with his great cast of singers at various points
during the recorded performance, - most notoriously, throughout Jan
Peerce's otherwise magnificent Che Gelida Manina.
Toscanini did this in other performances, too, IIRC, e.g., Ballo. He
seemed to enjoy his soloists so much, that he needed to join-in vocally.
Have any other well-known conductors been known to do the same in
their live opera performances?
Leonard Tillman
Premiereopera
>their live opera performances?
>
>Leonard Tillman
Yes. Listen to Jonel Perlea in the Bjoerling-Merrill-Peters RCA Rigoletto.
He grunts, groans, and makes all kinds of weird noises, especially in the
Gilda-Duke duet.
Best,
Ed
NBPalmer1
>their live opera performances?
>
Colin Davis.
The most recent example is the new Peter \Grimes on LSO Live.
NICK/Londin
comes...@hotmail.com
Yes, that left a bad taste in my mouth, also, Leonard. BTW, I beleive
there might even have been something personal between the Musetta and
Marcello; I haven't seen this in a while, but during their Act 3
confrontation in the snow, near the end, she seemed to be wiping her
mouth and seemed stunned about something that didn't quite feel right
to me. Maybe my imagination, though.
~ Roger
Richard Loeb
some of her recordings (e.g. Traviata) - irritating- yes but endearing (as
she herself is!!!) Richard
<comes...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:11861-410...@storefull-3234.bay.webtv.net...
Leonard Tillman
It's possible that some off-stage unfriendliness between the singers was
visibly manifested later on, OTOH, the production was somewhat
"revisionist" in style, - her gesture, therefore, a part of the
director's concept, to express her anger toward Marcello.
>~ Roger
Best,
Leonard Tillman
Leonard Tillman
Right, I just checked it out.
And Nick mentioned Colin Davis.
It would seem to be a worse gaffe in a studio recording, such as
Perlea's Rigoletto.
It's surprising, that RCA let it pass, as they did.
In a live performance, a maestros "Sing Along With Mitch" compulsion
would be less-marring in effect, as the mikes are less likely to pick up
his "vocal contributions". The singers would easily drown him out, to
everyone's benefit -- unless he just happens to have a voice superior to
any of theirs (!?!). Toscanini, alas, did not.
Leonard Tillman
Charlie Handelman
and that means..what???????????CH
Charlie Handelman
of hearing. all this time, i had thought you one of fi-fi's most devoted
admirers.
What is he..a GOD??That people cannot trash him......I recall an opere party
once..with some pretty good musicians there...and they were hysterical at his
"Pieta Rispetto" from Macbeth..Just because he knows 50000 songs does not
entitle him to be off limits to criticism for his Italian style..or lack of
it..and lack of voice.....CH
Mitchell Kaufman
> Yes. Listen to Jonel Perlea in the Bjoerling-Merrill-Peters RCA
> Rigoletto. He grunts, groans, and makes all kinds of weird noises,
> especially in the Gilda-Duke duet.
In the non-operatic, Toscanini-free zone, the most famous example would
undoubtedly be Glenn Gould. Another that I happened just to be listening
to yesterday would be someone--clearly a non-singer--"helping" the
chorus along in the climax of George Szell's (newly- and beautifully-
reissued) recording of Beethoven's Ninth? I'd guess Szell, who admired
Toscanini (perhaps in more ways than one?) but it's coming out of the
left channel exclusively.
Hard to judge on that basis of course, since there are so many tracks
involved in this recording in the first place... ;-)
Anyone with more, er, definitive information on that one?
MK
dtritter
> sclerotic conditions upstairs is the notion that everybody else is hard
> of hearing. all this time, i had thought you one of fi-di's most devoted
>
> What is he..a GOD??That people cannot trash him......I recall an opere party
> once..with some pretty good musicians there...and they were hysterical at his
> "Pieta Rispetto" from Macbeth..Just because he knows 50000 songs does not
> entitle him to be off limits to criticism for his Italian style..or lack of
> it..and lack of voice.....CH
> My best, Charlie.
>
> My Website dedicated to the vocal art is located at:
>
> http://www.handelmania.com
golly ned, charlie. all this time i thought your 5000 posts were to the
effect that you are devoted to him. this will come as a great
disappointment if he ever finds out. but, hush now. your secret is safe
with me. now on another subject ... what do you think of dietrich
fischer-dieskau? [in 10,000 words or less].
Charlie Handelman
fischer-dieskau? [in 10,000 words or less].
DUH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!CH
Leonard Tillman
Re non-singer/performers "singing-along":
>In the non-operatic, Toscanini-free zone, the
> most famous example would undoubtedly be
> Glenn Gould.
Interestingly, he happened to have a damn good voice! :)))
--Baritone, IIRC, on the basis of a couple of times he really "let go"
with a few notes.
Leonard Tillman
NNRathbun
record.<
recording of Nedda in an otherwise fantabulous Pagliacci, I thought she really
didn't seem comfortable in the role. It occurred to me that she wasn't
comfortable playing a "low" type of woman, and I don't mean strictly in class.
For instance, she made a great Santuzza, who can be seen as a noble soul
betrayed.
Anyway, maybe she had a similar difficulty with the character Carmen.
Thoughts?
Nancy
David Melnick
just before the end can sometimes sound as if it's an
engineer's splice -- even in live performance when you know
that's impossible. :-)
In the Beecham Boheme, I never quite believed Jussi's
laugh.
MarianneLuban
>From: nnra...@aol.com (NNRathbun)
>Date: 7/23/2004 8:57 PM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: <20040723235750...@mb-m04.aol.com>
Maybe you're on to something here. Come to think of it, I have never seen
Callas in a filmed interview where she did not come across as rather "stuffy".
Maybe she wasn't the spontaneous, mercurial type at all--but a good deal more
reserved than people believe. On the other hand, Callas was a great Tosca.
But who was Tosca?
The character seems both proud and insecure by turns but certainly has one
moment of pure sang froid when she plunges the blade into Scarpia. But Tosca
had a great capacity for love, as she demonstrates. And could not live without
it. Carmen is a likeable character in a way because she is such a little devil,
but she is basically a soul-less woman without any real capacity to love,
although the naive sincerity of Don Jose touches her briefly. But she uses him
like everyone else.
I don't think Callas, the woman, although a great actress--could identify much
with someone who was just a gay, street-smart hoyden. Callas, one suspects,
took herself very seriously early on and never was much of a reveler or free
spirit. There wasn't that much fun to be had in wartime Greece and then
Callas, having worked tirelessly on her singing, was already nearly a
full-fledged soprano despite her youth. When she returned to America she
concentrated on her career and seems to have been single-minded in her goal and
just concentrated on her career. But that's the way it's got to be, in any
case, if one wants to get to the top. Until she met her nemesis--or rather
Onassis. I have always felt there was a solid core of sadness in Callas. I
think she found it difficult to be very close to anyone for a long time and
felt rejected by her own mother, a simple woman who probably never understood
this complex creature. So "serious" women who faced adversity seemed to be her
forte. I doubt Maria had much of a sense of humor--but was certainly attracted
to men who did. Onassis was a charmer and so is DiStefano. Meneghini--who
knows? While the art and vocal quality of Callas has affected me like no other
soprano ever has--I admit I am no expert on her character. These are just
impressions I have formed but I am sure others here are better "informed".
stephenmead
"MarianneLuban" <marian...@aol.comnospam> wrote in message
news:20040723125440...@mb-m17.aol.com...
> >Subject: It's The Little Things: Annoying Interpretations?
>
> Now I love the opera "La Rondine" (okay, anything by Puccini) and thought
Moffo
> and Barioni (? why do I never remember how to spell this fine tenor's
name?)
> did a splendid job with it on an old LP I used to play constantly. But I
> haven't had that record for a long time, so decided to purchase Alagna and
> Gheorghiu's version. Also boring. One big lullaby. Why is it that this
tenor
> and soprano are always more interesting separately than when paired? I
don't
> get it.
My, my, tastes certainly do differ! This recording was hailed by Gramophone
magazine as the best complete recording of an opera *ever* made and has won
all sorts of international prizes. When I saw Alagna and Gheorghiu together
in this opera at Covent Garden in a beautiful Art Deco production I thought
it was one of the greatest things I have ever seen in my life and the whole
audience went into collective ecstasy. I have also seen them together at the
ROH in Romeo et Juliette and recently in Faust and AFAIC they are two of the
greatest opera stars of all time, unprecedented for 150 years, you have to
go back to Mario and Grisi to find a star tenor and soprano who were a
couple onstage and off, and you can feel the rapport and intimacy between
them when they sing together and relate to each other onstage, unlike for
instance Thomas Hampson and Karita Matilla recently in Arabella at ROH who
although they are both spendid artists, did not seem to like each other very
much.
So what I don't get is how your reaction can be so 100% opposite to mine,
but I suppose it would be a very dull world and discussion board if we all
felt the same about everything.
Richard Loeb
interpretations ever and stated before the recording started that she would
not be a typical scenery chewing Carmen - thats why she refuses to scream
when she is stabbed in the last Act, What she gives us (In perfect and
idiomatic French) is a subtle portrayal that draws you in. Not that it isn't
sharp rythmically (The aria at the beginning if the second Act wants to make
you jump onto a table!!!) but it pulls you in instead of coming out at you
in the usual pedestrian way. It's my favorite Carmen (for the character not
the recording) every time I hear it I get more from her interpretation, full
of a thousand nuances and shadings. Those who want the gypsy we have seen
many times elsewhere can certainly find her somewhere else; Callas gives us
something unique. Richard
NNRathbun" <nnra...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040723235750...@mb-m04.aol.com...
Leonard Tillman
>Although I adore Callas, she is the most
> lifeless Carmen I have ever heard on
>record.<
>I haven't heard the Callas Carmen yet, but
> when I was listening to her recording of
> Nedda in an otherwise fantabulous Pagliacci,
> I thought she really didn't seem comfortable in
> the role. It occurred to me that she wasn't
> comfortable playing a "low" type of woman,
> and I don't mean strictly in class. For
> instance, she made a great Santuzza, who
> can be seen as a noble soul betrayed.
>Anyway, maybe she had a similar difficulty
> with the character Carmen.
>Thoughts?
>Nancy
However she may have viewed the role personally, I always regarded
Callas as a practically ideal Carmen, and for that matter, Lady
Macbeth, - different, yet similar, regarding the coldness common to
both, the latter being the more "scheming", the former, the more
impulsive in thought and actions.
OTOH, Callas' Gilda, however well and intelligently sung and dramatized,
seemed considerably less-beiieveable to me than a Berger, Moffo,
Pagliughi, or Gueden, all of whom conveyed the necessary innocence and
vulnerablitity.
That said, I'll add that a great component of Maria Callas' art and
appeal was every bit as much *visual* as vocal! Those fortunate to
actually see her in these and other roles might well consider her The
Best, - in a class of her own.
Leonard Tillman
Sergio H. da Silva
voice btw.
"Leonard Tillman" <tapef...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:16478-410...@storefull-3334.bay.webtv.net...
Leonard Tillman
>Daniel Oren sings all the time (specially in
> rehearsals) and he has a good voice btw.
Another, I'm thinking of: the great violinist and sometimes-conductor
Itzhak Perlman, sang the role of the Jailer with Domingo in a televised
concert in the '80s, and did it again in the PD/Scotto Tosca set
released shortly afterwards. Perlman has IMO a fine bass-baritone voice,
evident also from his speech.
LT
MarianneLuban
>From: "stephenmead" ste...@mead9720.freeserve.co.uk
>Date: 7/24/2004 2:23 AM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: <cdta2c$6uf$3...@news7.svr.pol.co.uk>
>
>
>"MarianneLuban" <marian...@aol.comnospam> wrote in message
>news:20040723125440...@mb-m17.aol.com...
>> >Subject: It's The Little Things: Annoying Interpretations?
>
>>
>> Now I love the opera "La Rondine" (okay, anything by Puccini) and thought
>Moffo
>> and Barioni (? why do I never remember how to spell this fine tenor's
>name?)
>> did a splendid job with it on an old LP I used to play constantly. But I
>> haven't had that record for a long time, so decided to purchase Alagna and
>> Gheorghiu's version. Also boring. One big lullaby. Why is it that this
>tenor
>> and soprano are always more interesting separately than when paired? I
>don't
>> get it.
>
>My, my, tastes certainly do differ! This recording was hailed by Gramophone
>magazine as the best complete recording >of an opera *ever* made
Eh??????????
> and has won
>all sorts of international prizes. When I saw Alagna and Gheorghiu together
>in this opera at Covent Garden in a beautiful Art Deco production I thought
>it was one of the greatest things I have ever seen in my life and the whole
>audience went into collective ecstasy.
Maybe they had a good night.
I >have also seen them together at the
>ROH in Romeo et Juliette and recently in Faust and AFAIC they are two of the
>greatest opera stars of all time, unprecedented for 150 years, you have to
>go back to Mario and Grisi to find a star tenor and soprano who were a
>couple onstage and off, and you can feel the rapport and intimacy between
>them when they sing together and relate to each other onstage, unlike for
>instance Thomas Hampson and Karita Matilla recently in Arabella at ROH who
>although they are both spendid artists, did not seem to like each other very
>much.
>So what I don't get is how your reaction >can be so 100% opposite to mine,
Not an uncommon occurrence here, I'm afraid.
>but I suppose it would be a very dull world and discussion board if we all
>felt the same about everything.
Yes.
MarianneLuban
>Date: 7/24/2004 2:58 AM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: <8ZGdnSXXidV...@comcast.com>
>
>She had no difficulty with Carmen - Callas was never vulgar in her
>interpretations ever and stated before the recording started that she would
>not be a typical scenery chewing Carmen - thats why she refuses to scream
>when she is stabbed in the last Act, What she gives us (In perfect and
>idiomatic French) is a subtle portrayal that draws you in.
It didn't draw me in. Anyway, since when is the character of Carmen supposed
to be subtle or even "elegant"? She was the height of vulgarity! And "perfect
French" is no help, either--because a Gypsy scarcely ever spoke perfect
anything, except maybe Romany. Nowadays, when certain Gypsies are more settled
than they were in the days of Carmen, this can be no longer true. Did you ever
see the film "Snatch", though? Brad Pitt did an amazing job of mimicking the
Anglo-Gypsy dialect. How well did you understand him? :-)
> Not that it isn't
>sharp rythmically (The aria at the beginning if the second Act wants to make
>you jump onto a table!!!) but it pulls you in instead of coming out at you
>in the usual pedestrian way. It's my favorite Carmen (for the character not
>the recording) every time I hear it I get more from her interpretation, full
>of a thousand nuances and shadings. Those who want the gypsy we have seen
>many times elsewhere can certainly find her somewhere else; Callas gives us
>something unique. Richard
Perhaps. But would you want a Don Jose as a nose-picking, ball-scratching
rustic instead of a well-bred young man who falls low on account of his
obession with a wild creature? "Unique" is not always a positive thing.
Valfer
this mistake all too often. The musical accent is in the right
syllable, but it is a challenge for the soprano to sing an ascending
interval without "soaring."
Valfer
grndp...@aol.com (GRNDPADAVE) wrote in message news:<20040723132239...@mb-m11.aol.com>...
Mitchell Kaufman
> It didn't draw me in. Anyway, since when is the character of Carmen
> supposed to be subtle or even "elegant"? She was the height of vulgarity!
> And "perfect French" is no help, either--because a Gypsy scarcely ever
> spoke perfect anything, except maybe Romany. Nowadays, when certain
> Gypsies are more settled than they were in the days of Carmen, this can be
> no longer true. Did you ever see the film "Snatch", though? Brad Pitt
> did an amazing job of mimicking the Anglo-Gypsy dialect. How well did you
> understand him? :-)
Yes, but this is an opera, not a Brad Pitt film. Opera singers are
generally required to properly sing the language in which the opera is
composed, rather than to accent or otherwise de- or re-form it to fit
one's notion of the character.
> Perhaps. But would you want a Don Jose as a nose-picking, ball-scratching
> rustic instead of a well-bred young man who falls low on account of his
> obession with a wild creature? "Unique" is not always a positive thing.
I think I'll pass on this one.
MK
Richard Loeb
sings Carmen shouldn't either, um..huh???? . isn't that kind of stupid????
If someone sees her as the height of vulgarity, OK - (that knocks out de
los Angeles and a few others as well) I don't see the character IN THIS
OPERA that way and neither does Callas. IMHO French singing should never be
vulgar or crass; the same effect can be achieved through other means.
I stated that Callas gives us a unique interpretation, one totally her own
as she did so often; any Callas fan should apprciate that. What that has to
do with Don Jose picking his nose is beyond me. Richard
"Mitchell Kaufman" <forg...@iaint.disclosinit> wrote in message
news:1ghfjml.13lbq539mh6igN%forg...@iaint.disclosinit...
John
news:BNtMc.12005$%S4....@bignews1.bellsouth.net...
> Daniel Oren sings all the time (specially in rehearsals) and he has a good
> voice btw.
For the height of offensiveness, I was in the chorus of an Aida in Dallas
(Sharon Sweet and Ermanno Mauro). The conductor quite often burst into
Radames' part (in a loud, dramatic tenor voice) whenever he felt Mauro was
not doing it "right" (presumably, to show him how it "should" be done). At
the final dress, Mauro was marking (as he always did until the performance),
but the conductor didn't like this, so he began singing the ENTIRE ROLE from
the pit. Mauro (and Sweet) walked off the stage in the middle of the fourth
act and the rehearsal was over. Don't know how they smoothed it over, but
opening night everything was fine and the conductor kept his mouth SHUT.
The conductor was Daniel Oren.
- John
Dan
common engagements for the next while. There was a rumour they split up...
Dan
"stephenmead" <ste...@mead9720.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
news:cdta2c$6uf$3...@news7.svr.pol.co.uk...
Little Jimmy Olsen
"Richard Loeb" <loe...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:oqednSlTQIl...@comcast.com...
> In other words, because Gypsies didn't speak proper French, the singer who
> sings Carmen shouldn't either, um..huh???? . isn't that kind of stupid????
>
> If someone sees her as the height of vulgarity, OK - (that knocks out de
> los Angeles and a few others as well) I don't see the character IN THIS
> OPERA that way and neither does Callas. IMHO French singing should never
be
> vulgar or crass; the same effect can be achieved through other means.
>
> I stated that Callas gives us a unique interpretation, one totally her own
> as she did so often; any Callas fan should apprciate that. What that has
to
> do with Don Jose picking his nose is beyond me. Richard
>
If I read her post aright there was an implied emphasis on ball scratching.
MarianneLuban
>From: forg...@iaint.disclosinit (Mitchell Kaufman)
>Date: 7/24/2004 10:22 AM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: <1ghfjml.13lbq539mh6igN%forg...@iaint.disclosinit>
>
>MarianneLuban <marian...@aol.comnospam> wrote:
>
>> It didn't draw me in. Anyway, since when is the character of Carmen
>> supposed to be subtle or even "elegant"? She was the height of vulgarity!
>> And "perfect French" is no help, either--because a Gypsy scarcely ever
>> spoke perfect anything, except maybe Romany. Nowadays, when certain
>> Gypsies are more settled than they were in the days of Carmen, this can be
>> no longer true. Did you ever see the film "Snatch", though? Brad Pitt
>> did an amazing job of mimicking the Anglo-Gypsy dialect. How well did you
>> understand him? :-)
>
>Yes, but this is an opera, not a Brad Pitt film. Opera singers are
>generally required to properly sing the language in which the opera is
>composed, rather than to accent or otherwise de- or re-form it to fit
>one's notion of the character.
You're right. But the point I was making was that Callas' good French
pronunciation could not redeem a dull interpretation of Carmen.
stephenmead
"Dan" <dpet...@rogers.com> wrote in message
news:cxAMc.1202097$Ar.11...@twister01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com...
> Are Gheorghiu and Alagna still together? I heard they cancelled all their
> common engagements for the next while. There was a rumour they split up...
>
> Dan
>
but she is coming back next year for La Rondine and he isn't. What if
anything this means as far as them still being together I do not know.
Little Jimmy Olsen
"MarianneLuban" <marian...@aol.comnospam> wrote in message
> >Subject: Re: It's The Little Things: Annoying Interpretations?
> >From: forg...@iaint.disclosinit (Mitchell Kaufman)
> >Date: 7/24/2004 10:22 AM Pacific Daylight Time
> >Message-id: <1ghfjml.13lbq539mh6igN%forg...@iaint.disclosinit>
> >
> >MarianneLuban <marian...@aol.comnospam> wrote:
> >
> >> It didn't draw me in. Anyway, since when is the character of Carmen
> >> supposed to be subtle or even "elegant"? She was the height of
vulgarity!
> >> And "perfect French" is no help, either--because a Gypsy scarcely ever
> >> spoke perfect anything, except maybe Romany. Nowadays, when certain
> >> Gypsies are more settled than they were in the days of Carmen, this can
be
> >> no longer true. Did you ever see the film "Snatch", though? Brad Pitt
> >> did an amazing job of mimicking the Anglo-Gypsy dialect. How well did
you
> >> understand him? :-)
> >
> >Yes, but this is an opera, not a Brad Pitt film. Opera singers are
> >generally required to properly sing the language in which the opera is
> >composed, rather than to accent or otherwise de- or re-form it to fit
> >one's notion of the character.
>
> You're right. But the point I was making was that Callas' good French
> pronunciation could not redeem a dull interpretation of Carmen.
> >
Dull? Callas dull? There are no dull Callas interpretations, only dull
Callas listeners.
Burns63
>
>
>DUH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!CH
First of all, it's spelt "Dutch" and second of all, he's German.
La Donna Mobile
"MarianneLuban" <marian...@aol.comnospam> wrote in message
Did you ever
> see the film "Snatch", though? Brad Pitt did an amazing job of mimicking
the
> Anglo-Gypsy dialect. How well did you understand him? :-)
>
Devil's Own and we had to put up the subtitles even though my partner's
father had an impenetrable Northern Ireland accent, and therefore, you'd
think we would be above average in being able to understand it...!
La Donna Mobile
If you look back through the archives of, say, Opera-L or parterrebox, and
believe everything you read it seems that M. Alagna has a divorce lawyer on
constant retainer!
Considering that they have two teenage daughters who have already had enough
upset and turmoil in their lives, it may just be that they have decided to
do what very many parents do - stay together until the kids have grown up.
And I guess 'staying together' is easier when you have multiple homes in
multiple countries than if you live ina three-bedroomed semi and have to
manage your finances carefully!
OTOH, some people thrive on tempestuous relationships - never a dull moment
and all that...!
(Besides, she says cynically - no publicity is bad publicity in maintaining
that stroppy diva image - I do so love reading al those interviews that
begin "I went to interview Angela Gheorgiou and I was expecting an
unpleasant bitch and all I found was a sweet little kitten...")
"Dan" <dpet...@rogers.com> wrote in message
news:cxAMc.1202097$Ar.11...@twister01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com...
live4lazio
recordings are the little verismo touches often employed by singers
like Albanese and Del Monaco--the fake laughter and even worse, fake
sobbing! Albanese has a lovely voice, but she is almost impossible to
listen to in things like, "Donde lieta", "Tu, tu, piccolo Iddio" and
"Sola, perduta, abbandonata". You can't tell if she's laughing or
crying sometimes. Her sobs are very annoying and are often inserted in
places where they distort the vocal line. I think it's very possible
to sound tragic and sad without these distracting noises.
Dan
Dan
"stephenmead" <ste...@mead9720.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
news:cdvur5$uvg$3...@newsg2.svr.pol.co.uk...
Leonard Tillman
From: dpet...@rogers.com (Dan)
>Did the Rondine the two did together get
> taped for video release?
>Dan
If so, it hasn't become available yet.
The CD set, however, has mixed reviews, mostly positive:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B000002RYA/103-1258882-5166216?v=glance
LT
MarianneLuban
>From: tapef...@webtv.net (Leonard Tillman)
>Date: 7/25/2004 4:53 PM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: <14375-410...@storefull-3333.bay.webtv.net>
>
>
>From: dpet...@rogers.com (Dan)
>
>>Did the Rondine the two did together get
>> taped for video release?
>>Dan
>
>If so, it hasn't become available yet.
>
>The CD set, however, has mixed reviews, mostly positive:
>
>
>http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B000002RYA/103-1258882-5166
216?v=glance
>
I listened to it again this morning to make sure I hadn't missed anything. I
hadn't. These are the two major flaws, IMO. The tempo is at a snail's pace.
So much of the fault has to lie with the conductor. It is almost unbearably
languid.
Then there is the sound quality. I played these two CDs on the same equipment
I do everything else--but had to crank it up to full volume in order to be able
to hear anything--and there is nothing wrong with my hearing. The whole thing
is just bad--and how anyone could praise it is beyond me.
MarianneLuban
>Date: 7/25/2004 2:13 PM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: <a65fa91a.04072...@posting.google.com>
I once asked Jan Peerce if he had ever noticed that, on his "Butterfly" with
Albanese, she was constantly panting throughout their "Bimba, etc" duet.
Peerce said he hadn't noticed, but would have a listen later and added "I must
really have given her a run for her money." But there it is, audible panting
from Albanese. Was it deliberate--or was the poor woman having trouble
breathing for some reason? I can't say it's really an annoyance but damned odd
nonetheless.
Richard VanDerBeets
>I once asked Jan Peerce . . .
Charlie Handelman, call your office.
Richard VanDerBeets
==================================================
"'Tis with our judgments as our watches: none
Go just alike, yet each believes his own." -- Pope
Dan
recording quality AND the slow, overly sugary conducting...
Dan
"MarianneLuban" <marian...@aol.comnospam> wrote in message
news:20040725211635...@mb-m06.aol.com...
Leonard Tillman
><beep bleeped>
Now, Li'l dickie-do, leave us. You stink. Bigtime.
LT
PS: Ruck you, Fichard.
MarianneLuban
>Date: 7/25/2004 9:40 PM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: <CW%Mc.1223855$Ar.4...@twister01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>
>
>I also don't understand what the fuss is about... and I agree about the
>recording quality AND the slow, overly sugary conducting...
>
>Dan
If your name is really Petrescu then you must be Romanian. You know, I really
admire Gheorghiu. (Even Alagna--although not as much as his wife). Have you
ever heard the CD "The Gold and Silver Gala" featuring Domingo and other
artists at Covent Garden? It is a really fine recording and one of the cuts I
like best is Gheorghiu's "Muszica" from "Valurile Dunarii" (Waves of the
Danube). What a wonderful song! I was still singing, myself, when the CD
first appeared and tried to find the sheet music--unsuccessfully.
La Donna Mobile
"MarianneLuban" <marian...@aol.comnospam> wrote in message
Ooh yes - and when Angela was on Desert Island Discs, all her choices were
Romanian (mainly) folk tunes, including one sung by Roberto Alagna.
Mind you, on that video, I think Alagna's Don Jose was better than Angela's
Micaela...
MarianneLuban
>Date: 7/26/2004 9:58 AM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: <ce3d7t$1ho$1...@sparta.btinternet.com>
>From: "La Donna Mobile" donna...@REMOVEbrixton.fsworld.co.uk
>Date: 7/26/2004 9:58 AM Pacific Daylight Time
>Message-id: <ce3d7t$1ho$1...@sparta.btinternet.com>
Come to that, on their CD of duets, the exchange between Don Jose and Micaela
was pretty well done--the best thing on the recording. It is one of my
favorites duets, in any case--and really my favorite moment from the entire
opera, "Carmen", musically.
La Donna Mobile
"MarianneLuban" <marian...@aol.comnospam> wrote in message
No, no, no, no - La ci darem la mano. Especially on the video!!!!
Pat Finley
>
> However she may have viewed the role personally, I always regarded
> Callas as a practically ideal Carmen, and for that matter, Lady
> Macbeth, - different, yet similar, regarding the coldness common to
> both,
> Leonard Tillman
=============================
Apart from their great strength and an excess of self-centeredness,
there is nothing ‘similar' about these two women, who could hardly be
more intrinsically unlike.
Carmen is a child of nature who embraces that mother with her entire
being; she is a creature of, and in some respects a slave to, her
natural passions. There is not an ounce of subtlety in her being.
On the other hand, there is not an ounce of frivolousness or
flirtation in Lady Macbeth. She suppresses her feminine nature as
profoundly as any character in art or literature.
… Come, you spirits
That tend on mortal thoughts! unsex me here,
And fill me from the crown to the toe top full
Of direst cruelty; make thick my blood,
Stop up the access and passage to remorse,
That no compunctious visitings of nature
Shake my fell purpose, nor keep peace between
The effect and it! Come to my woman's breasts,
And take my milk for gall, you murdering ministers,
Wherever in your sightless substances
You wait on nature's mischief!
And later:
I have given suck, and know
How tender 'tis to love the babe that milks me:
I would, while it was smiling in my face,
Have pluck'd my nipple from his boneless gums,
And dash'd the brains out, had I so sworn as you
Have done to this.
Carmen would no more have said these words than Lady Macbeth would
have sung "Pres de ramparts de Dunsinane."
Pat
Richard Loeb
presented to the public in certain ways. via French and Italian opera and
there are certain qualities those venues require. To think otherwise would
be like saying that the character of the Flying Dutchman should be sung with
a Dutch accent!! Proof of the pudding is that if you see the famous Migenes
Johnson film of Carmen you will not see a more vulgar (and wonderful
portrayal) however if you just hear the soundtrack you don;t get that at
all - you get a rather nicely sung rendition of the work in variable French.
What Callas would have done with the character on stage is anyones guess but
via recording only she presents a fascinating creature (to me), To say that
she has to distort the music (which seems to be what you are intimating) by
some means or other to sound "vulgar" really IMHO works against certain
traits of French singing for the lyric stage. The thing the singer has to
accomplish is to present to the public the "vulgarity" (if you think that
necesary) while staying within the French singing style. Richard
"Pat Finley" <capa0...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:ce68920e.04072...@posting.google.com...
> tapef...@webtv.net (Leonard Tillman) wrote in message
news:<1643-410...@storefull-3334.bay.webtv.net>...
>
> >
> > However she may have viewed the role personally, I always regarded
> > Callas as a practically ideal Carmen, and for that matter, Lady
> > Macbeth, - different, yet similar, regarding the coldness common to
> > both,
> > Leonard Tillman
>
> =============================
>
> Apart from their great strength and an excess of self-centeredness,
> there is nothing 'similar' about these two women, who could hardly be
> more intrinsically unlike.
>
> Carmen is a child of nature who embraces that mother with her entire
> being; she is a creature of, and in some respects a slave to, her
> natural passions. There is not an ounce of subtlety in her being.
>
> On the other hand, there is not an ounce of frivolousness or
> flirtation in Lady Macbeth. She suppresses her feminine nature as
> profoundly as any character in art or literature.
>
> . Come, you spirits
Leonard Tillman
From: loe...@comcast.net (Richard Loeb)
>Yes, we all know the characters are different -
Correct, though some like to pretend that they are alerting us to the
fact.
> however they are being presented to the
> public in certain ways. via French and Italian
> opera and there are certain qualities those
> venues require. To think otherwise would be
> like saying that the character of the Flying
> Dutchman should be sung with a Dutch
> accent!!
Might be so, -- IF the performance is sung in that language.
>Proof of the pudding is that if you see the
> famous Migenes Johnson film of Carmen you
> will not see a more vulgar (and wonderful
> portrayal) however if you just hear the
> soundtrack you don;t get that at all - you get a
> rather nicely sung rendition of the work in
> variable French. What Callas would have
> done with the character on stage is anyones
> guess but via recording only she presents a
> fascinating creature (to me), To say that she
> has to distort the music (which seems to be
> what you are intimating)
Assuming he knows what he's intimating. :-)
>by some means or
> other to sound "vulgar" really IMHO works >against certain traits of
French singing for the
> lyric stage. The thing the singer has to
> accomplish is to present to the public the
> "vulgarity" (if you think that necesary) while
> staying within the French singing style.
> Richard
As Callas and several others did, admirably.
LT
"Pat Finley" <capa0...@aol.com> wrote
Dan
"Valurile Dunarii" is a waltz that has words set to it, akin to Strauss Jr.
music, though a little more sugary. You make it sound like "Muzica" is a
song out of an operetta "Valurile Dunarii". If that is the case I've never
heard it, though I'd plug the waltz as being very beautiful.
Dan
"MarianneLuban" <marian...@aol.comnospam> wrote in message
news:20040726121217...@mb-m22.aol.com...