> >Do you find in some recording or other, a bit of > > interpretation that is so badly done, silly or > > just plain wrong that it makes you want to > > scream, "WHY?!"
> >I have one: the Bernstein La Boheme, on DG.
> Re another Boheme, Toscanini's:
> This doesn't count as an "interpretation", but the Maestro audibly hums > or "croons" along with his great cast of singers at various points > during the recorded performance, - most notoriously, throughout Jan > Peerce's otherwise magnificent Che Gelida Manina.
> Toscanini did this in other performances, too, IIRC, e.g., Ballo. He > seemed to enjoy his soloists so much, that he needed to join-in vocally.
> Have any other well-known conductors been known to do the same in > their live opera performances?
>Daniel Oren sings all the time (specially in > rehearsals) and he has a good voice btw.
Another, I'm thinking of: the great violinist and sometimes-conductor Itzhak Perlman, sang the role of the Jailer with Domingo in a televised concert in the '80s, and did it again in the PD/Scotto Tosca set released shortly afterwards. Perlman has IMO a fine bass-baritone voice, evident also from his speech.
LT
"Leonard Tillman" <tapefana...@webtv.net> wrote in message
>Do you find in some recording or other, a bit of > interpretation that is so badly done, silly or >just plain wrong that
it makes you want to
> scream, "WHY?!" >I have one: the Bernstein La Boheme, on DG.
" Re another Boheme, Toscanini's: This doesn't count as an "interpretation", but the Maestro audibly hums or "croons" along with his great cast of singers at various points during the recorded performance, - most notoriously, throughout Jan Peerce's otherwise magnificent Che Gelida Manina. Toscanini did this in other performances, too, IIRC, e.g., Ballo. He seemed to enjoy his soloists so much, that he needed to join-in vocally. Have any other well-known conductors been known to do the same in their live opera performances? "
>Subject: Re: It's The Little Things: Annoying Interpretations? >From: "stephenmead" step...@mead9720.freeserve.co.uk >Date: 7/24/2004 2:23 AM Pacific Daylight Time >Message-id: <cdta2c$6u...@news7.svr.pol.co.uk>
>> Now I love the opera "La Rondine" (okay, anything by Puccini) and thought >Moffo >> and Barioni (? why do I never remember how to spell this fine tenor's >name?) >> did a splendid job with it on an old LP I used to play constantly. But I >> haven't had that record for a long time, so decided to purchase Alagna and >> Gheorghiu's version. Also boring. One big lullaby. Why is it that this >tenor >> and soprano are always more interesting separately than when paired? I >don't >> get it.
>My, my, tastes certainly do differ! This recording was hailed by Gramophone >magazine as the best complete recording >of an opera *ever* made
Eh??????????
> and has won >all sorts of international prizes. When I saw Alagna and Gheorghiu together >in this opera at Covent Garden in a beautiful Art Deco production I thought >it was one of the greatest things I have ever seen in my life and the whole >audience went into collective ecstasy.
Maybe they had a good night.
I >have also seen them together at the
>ROH in Romeo et Juliette and recently in Faust and AFAIC they are two of the >greatest opera stars of all time, unprecedented for 150 years, you have to >go back to Mario and Grisi to find a star tenor and soprano who were a >couple onstage and off, and you can feel the rapport and intimacy between >them when they sing together and relate to each other onstage, unlike for >instance Thomas Hampson and Karita Matilla recently in Arabella at ROH who >although they are both spendid artists, did not seem to like each other very >much. >So what I don't get is how your reaction >can be so 100% opposite to mine,
Not an uncommon occurrence here, I'm afraid.
>but I suppose it would be a very dull world and discussion board if we all >felt the same about everything.
>Subject: Re: It's The Little Things: Annoying Interpretations? >From: "Richard Loeb" loeb...@comcast.net >Date: 7/24/2004 2:58 AM Pacific Daylight Time >Message-id: <8ZGdnSXXidVbr5_cRVn...@comcast.com>
>She had no difficulty with Carmen - Callas was never vulgar in her >interpretations ever and stated before the recording started that she would >not be a typical scenery chewing Carmen - thats why she refuses to scream >when she is stabbed in the last Act, What she gives us (In perfect and >idiomatic French) is a subtle portrayal that draws you in.
It didn't draw me in. Anyway, since when is the character of Carmen supposed to be subtle or even "elegant"? She was the height of vulgarity! And "perfect French" is no help, either--because a Gypsy scarcely ever spoke perfect anything, except maybe Romany. Nowadays, when certain Gypsies are more settled than they were in the days of Carmen, this can be no longer true. Did you ever see the film "Snatch", though? Brad Pitt did an amazing job of mimicking the Anglo-Gypsy dialect. How well did you understand him? :-)
> Not that it isn't >sharp rythmically (The aria at the beginning if the second Act wants to make >you jump onto a table!!!) but it pulls you in instead of coming out at you >in the usual pedestrian way. It's my favorite Carmen (for the character not >the recording) every time I hear it I get more from her interpretation, full >of a thousand nuances and shadings. Those who want the gypsy we have seen >many times elsewhere can certainly find her somewhere else; Callas gives us >something unique. Richard
Perhaps. But would you want a Don Jose as a nose-picking, ball-scratching rustic instead of a well-bred young man who falls low on account of his obession with a wild creature? "Unique" is not always a positive thing.
>NNRathbun" <nnrath...@aol.com> wrote in message >news:20040723235750.15298.00000285@mb-m04.aol.com... >> >Although I adore Callas, she is the most lifeless Carmen I have ever >heard on >> record.< >> I haven't heard the Callas Carmen yet, but when I was listening to her >> recording of Nedda in an otherwise fantabulous Pagliacci, I thought she >really >> didn't seem comfortable in the role. It occurred to me that she wasn't >> comfortable playing a "low" type of woman, and I don't mean strictly in >class. >> For instance, she made a great Santuzza, who can be seen as a noble soul >> betrayed.
>> Anyway, maybe she had a similar difficulty with the character Carmen.
This is not Verdi's mistakes. Sopranos are allowed to get away with this mistake all too often. The musical accent is in the right syllable, but it is a challenge for the soprano to sing an ascending interval without "soaring."
grndpad...@aol.com (GRNDPADAVE) wrote in message <news:20040723132239.22404.00000349@mb-m11.aol.com>... > Listening to BALLO, I am annoyed that Verdi misaccentuates the word "povero" > (where the accent should be on the first syllable.
> Repeatedly, Amelia sings: "mio po-VER-o cor." Somma should have provided a > text where Verdi would not have resorted to corrupt scansion. Probably the > fault was Verdi's.
MarianneLuban <mariannelu...@aol.comnospam> wrote: > It didn't draw me in. Anyway, since when is the character of Carmen > supposed to be subtle or even "elegant"? She was the height of vulgarity! > And "perfect French" is no help, either--because a Gypsy scarcely ever > spoke perfect anything, except maybe Romany. Nowadays, when certain > Gypsies are more settled than they were in the days of Carmen, this can be > no longer true. Did you ever see the film "Snatch", though? Brad Pitt > did an amazing job of mimicking the Anglo-Gypsy dialect. How well did you > understand him? :-)
Yes, but this is an opera, not a Brad Pitt film. Opera singers are generally required to properly sing the language in which the opera is composed, rather than to accent or otherwise de- or re-form it to fit one's notion of the character.
> Perhaps. But would you want a Don Jose as a nose-picking, ball-scratching > rustic instead of a well-bred young man who falls low on account of his > obession with a wild creature? "Unique" is not always a positive thing.
In other words, because Gypsies didn't speak proper French, the singer who sings Carmen shouldn't either, um..huh???? . isn't that kind of stupid????
If someone sees her as the height of vulgarity, OK - (that knocks out de los Angeles and a few others as well) I don't see the character IN THIS OPERA that way and neither does Callas. IMHO French singing should never be vulgar or crass; the same effect can be achieved through other means.
I stated that Callas gives us a unique interpretation, one totally her own as she did so often; any Callas fan should apprciate that. What that has to do with Don Jose picking his nose is beyond me. Richard
"Mitchell Kaufman" <forge...@iaint.disclosinit> wrote in message
> > It didn't draw me in. Anyway, since when is the character of Carmen > > supposed to be subtle or even "elegant"? She was the height of vulgarity! > > And "perfect French" is no help, either--because a Gypsy scarcely ever > > spoke perfect anything, except maybe Romany. Nowadays, when certain > > Gypsies are more settled than they were in the days of Carmen, this can be > > no longer true. Did you ever see the film "Snatch", though? Brad Pitt > > did an amazing job of mimicking the Anglo-Gypsy dialect. How well did you > > understand him? :-)
> Yes, but this is an opera, not a Brad Pitt film. Opera singers are > generally required to properly sing the language in which the opera is > composed, rather than to accent or otherwise de- or re-form it to fit > one's notion of the character.
> > Perhaps. But would you want a Don Jose as a nose-picking, ball-scratching > > rustic instead of a well-bred young man who falls low on account of his > > obession with a wild creature? "Unique" is not always a positive thing.
> Daniel Oren sings all the time (specially in rehearsals) and he has a good > voice btw.
For the height of offensiveness, I was in the chorus of an Aida in Dallas (Sharon Sweet and Ermanno Mauro). The conductor quite often burst into Radames' part (in a loud, dramatic tenor voice) whenever he felt Mauro was not doing it "right" (presumably, to show him how it "should" be done). At the final dress, Mauro was marking (as he always did until the performance), but the conductor didn't like this, so he began singing the ENTIRE ROLE from the pit. Mauro (and Sweet) walked off the stage in the middle of the fourth act and the rehearsal was over. Don't know how they smoothed it over, but opening night everything was fine and the conductor kept his mouth SHUT. The conductor was Daniel Oren.
> > Now I love the opera "La Rondine" (okay, anything by Puccini) and thought > Moffo > > and Barioni (? why do I never remember how to spell this fine tenor's > name?) > > did a splendid job with it on an old LP I used to play constantly. But I > > haven't had that record for a long time, so decided to purchase Alagna and > > Gheorghiu's version. Also boring. One big lullaby. Why is it that this > tenor > > and soprano are always more interesting separately than when paired? I > don't > > get it.
> My, my, tastes certainly do differ! This recording was hailed by Gramophone > magazine as the best complete recording of an opera *ever* made and has won > all sorts of international prizes. When I saw Alagna and Gheorghiu together > in this opera at Covent Garden in a beautiful Art Deco production I thought > it was one of the greatest things I have ever seen in my life and the whole > audience went into collective ecstasy. I have also seen them together at the > ROH in Romeo et Juliette and recently in Faust and AFAIC they are two of the > greatest opera stars of all time, unprecedented for 150 years, you have to > go back to Mario and Grisi to find a star tenor and soprano who were a > couple onstage and off, and you can feel the rapport and intimacy between > them when they sing together and relate to each other onstage, unlike for > instance Thomas Hampson and Karita Matilla recently in Arabella at ROH who > although they are both spendid artists, did not seem to like each other very > much. > So what I don't get is how your reaction can be so 100% opposite to mine, > but I suppose it would be a very dull world and discussion board if we all > felt the same about everything.
> In other words, because Gypsies didn't speak proper French, the singer who > sings Carmen shouldn't either, um..huh???? . isn't that kind of stupid????
> If someone sees her as the height of vulgarity, OK - (that knocks out de > los Angeles and a few others as well) I don't see the character IN THIS > OPERA that way and neither does Callas. IMHO French singing should never be > vulgar or crass; the same effect can be achieved through other means.
> I stated that Callas gives us a unique interpretation, one totally her own > as she did so often; any Callas fan should apprciate that. What that has to > do with Don Jose picking his nose is beyond me. Richard
If I read her post aright there was an implied emphasis on ball scratching.
>> It didn't draw me in. Anyway, since when is the character of Carmen >> supposed to be subtle or even "elegant"? She was the height of vulgarity! >> And "perfect French" is no help, either--because a Gypsy scarcely ever >> spoke perfect anything, except maybe Romany. Nowadays, when certain >> Gypsies are more settled than they were in the days of Carmen, this can be >> no longer true. Did you ever see the film "Snatch", though? Brad Pitt >> did an amazing job of mimicking the Anglo-Gypsy dialect. How well did you >> understand him? :-)
>Yes, but this is an opera, not a Brad Pitt film. Opera singers are >generally required to properly sing the language in which the opera is >composed, rather than to accent or otherwise de- or re-form it to fit >one's notion of the character.
You're right. But the point I was making was that Callas' good French pronunciation could not redeem a dull interpretation of Carmen.
>> Perhaps. But would you want a Don Jose as a nose-picking, ball-scratching >> rustic instead of a well-bred young man who falls low on account of his >> obession with a wild creature? "Unique" is not always a positive thing.
> Are Gheorghiu and Alagna still together? I heard they cancelled all their > common engagements for the next while. There was a rumour they split up...
> Dan
They were certainly together just a few weeks ago at Covent Garden for Faust but she is coming back next year for La Rondine and he isn't. What if anything this means as far as them still being together I do not know.
> >> It didn't draw me in. Anyway, since when is the character of Carmen > >> supposed to be subtle or even "elegant"? She was the height of vulgarity! > >> And "perfect French" is no help, either--because a Gypsy scarcely ever > >> spoke perfect anything, except maybe Romany. Nowadays, when certain > >> Gypsies are more settled than they were in the days of Carmen, this can be > >> no longer true. Did you ever see the film "Snatch", though? Brad Pitt > >> did an amazing job of mimicking the Anglo-Gypsy dialect. How well did you > >> understand him? :-)
> >Yes, but this is an opera, not a Brad Pitt film. Opera singers are > >generally required to properly sing the language in which the opera is > >composed, rather than to accent or otherwise de- or re-form it to fit > >one's notion of the character.
> You're right. But the point I was making was that Callas' good French > pronunciation could not redeem a dull interpretation of Carmen.
Dull? Callas dull? There are no dull Callas interpretations, only dull Callas listeners.
> see the film "Snatch", though? Brad Pitt did an amazing job of mimicking the > Anglo-Gypsy dialect. How well did you understand him? :-)
What is it with Brad Pitt? We watched him play an IRA terrorist in The Devil's Own and we had to put up the subtitles even though my partner's father had an impenetrable Northern Ireland accent, and therefore, you'd think we would be above average in being able to understand it...!
If you look back through the archives of, say, Opera-L or parterrebox, and believe everything you read it seems that M. Alagna has a divorce lawyer on constant retainer!
Considering that they have two teenage daughters who have already had enough upset and turmoil in their lives, it may just be that they have decided to do what very many parents do - stay together until the kids have grown up. And I guess 'staying together' is easier when you have multiple homes in multiple countries than if you live ina three-bedroomed semi and have to manage your finances carefully!
OTOH, some people thrive on tempestuous relationships - never a dull moment and all that...!
(Besides, she says cynically - no publicity is bad publicity in maintaining that stroppy diva image - I do so love reading al those interviews that begin "I went to interview Angela Gheorgiou and I was expecting an unpleasant bitch and all I found was a sweet little kitten...")
> Are Gheorghiu and Alagna still together? I heard they cancelled all their > common engagements for the next while. There was a rumour they split up...
> > > Now I love the opera "La Rondine" (okay, anything by Puccini) and > thought > > Moffo > > > and Barioni (? why do I never remember how to spell this fine tenor's > > name?) > > > did a splendid job with it on an old LP I used to play constantly. But > I > > > haven't had that record for a long time, so decided to purchase Alagna > and > > > Gheorghiu's version. Also boring. One big lullaby. Why is it that > this > > tenor > > > and soprano are always more interesting separately than when paired? I > > don't > > > get it.
> > My, my, tastes certainly do differ! This recording was hailed by > Gramophone > > magazine as the best complete recording of an opera *ever* made and has > won > > all sorts of international prizes. When I saw Alagna and Gheorghiu > together > > in this opera at Covent Garden in a beautiful Art Deco production I > thought > > it was one of the greatest things I have ever seen in my life and the > whole > > audience went into collective ecstasy. I have also seen them together at > the > > ROH in Romeo et Juliette and recently in Faust and AFAIC they are two of > the > > greatest opera stars of all time, unprecedented for 150 years, you have to > > go back to Mario and Grisi to find a star tenor and soprano who were a > > couple onstage and off, and you can feel the rapport and intimacy between > > them when they sing together and relate to each other onstage, unlike for > > instance Thomas Hampson and Karita Matilla recently in Arabella at ROH > who > > although they are both spendid artists, did not seem to like each other > very > > much. > > So what I don't get is how your reaction can be so 100% opposite to mine, > > but I suppose it would be a very dull world and discussion board if we all > > felt the same about everything.
I'm new here, but the one thing that has always kind of annoyed me on recordings are the little verismo touches often employed by singers like Albanese and Del Monaco--the fake laughter and even worse, fake sobbing! Albanese has a lovely voice, but she is almost impossible to listen to in things like, "Donde lieta", "Tu, tu, piccolo Iddio" and "Sola, perduta, abbandonata". You can't tell if she's laughing or crying sometimes. Her sobs are very annoying and are often inserted in places where they distort the vocal line. I think it's very possible to sound tragic and sad without these distracting noises.
> They were certainly together just a few weeks ago at Covent Garden for Faust > but she is coming back next year for La Rondine and he isn't. What if > anything this means as far as them still being together I do not know.
>Are Gheorghiu and Alagna still together? I > heard they cancelled all their common > engagements for the next while. There was a > rumour they split up... >Dan >They were certainly together just a few weeks > ago at Covent Garden for Faust but she is > coming back next year for La Rondine and he > isn't. What if anything this means as far as > them still being together I do not know.
I listened to it again this morning to make sure I hadn't missed anything. I hadn't. These are the two major flaws, IMO. The tempo is at a snail's pace. So much of the fault has to lie with the conductor. It is almost unbearably languid. Then there is the sound quality. I played these two CDs on the same equipment I do everything else--but had to crank it up to full volume in order to be able to hear anything--and there is nothing wrong with my hearing. The whole thing is just bad--and how anyone could praise it is beyond me.
>Subject: Re: It's The Little Things: Annoying Interpretations? >From: live4la...@hotmail.com (live4lazio) >Date: 7/25/2004 2:13 PM Pacific Daylight Time >Message-id: <a65fa91a.0407251313.7ff66...@posting.google.com>
>I'm new here, but the one thing that has always kind of annoyed me on >recordings are the little verismo touches often employed by singers >like Albanese and Del Monaco--the fake laughter and even worse, fake >sobbing! Albanese has a lovely voice, but she is almost impossible to >listen to in things like, "Donde lieta", "Tu, tu, piccolo Iddio" and >"Sola, perduta, abbandonata". You can't tell if she's laughing or >crying sometimes. Her sobs are very annoying and are often inserted in >places where they distort the vocal line. I think it's very possible >to sound tragic and sad without these distracting noises.
I once asked Jan Peerce if he had ever noticed that, on his "Butterfly" with Albanese, she was constantly panting throughout their "Bimba, etc" duet. Peerce said he hadn't noticed, but would have a listen later and added "I must really have given her a run for her money." But there it is, audible panting from Albanese. Was it deliberate--or was the poor woman having trouble breathing for some reason? I can't say it's really an annoyance but damned odd nonetheless.
Richard VanDerBeets ================================================== "'Tis with our judgments as our watches: none Go just alike, yet each believes his own." -- Pope
> I listened to it again this morning to make sure I hadn't missed anything. I > hadn't. These are the two major flaws, IMO. The tempo is at a snail's pace. > So much of the fault has to lie with the conductor. It is almost unbearably > languid. > Then there is the sound quality. I played these two CDs on the same equipment > I do everything else--but had to crank it up to full volume in order to be able > to hear anything--and there is nothing wrong with my hearing. The whole thing > is just bad--and how anyone could praise it is beyond me.
>Subject: Re: It's The Little Things: Annoying Interpretations? >From: "Dan" dpetre...@rogers.com >Date: 7/25/2004 9:40 PM Pacific Daylight Time >Message-id: <CW%Mc.1223855$Ar.418...@twister01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>
>I also don't understand what the fuss is about... and I agree about the >recording quality AND the slow, overly sugary conducting...
>Dan
If your name is really Petrescu then you must be Romanian. You know, I really admire Gheorghiu. (Even Alagna--although not as much as his wife). Have you ever heard the CD "The Gold and Silver Gala" featuring Domingo and other artists at Covent Garden? It is a really fine recording and one of the cuts I like best is Gheorghiu's "Muszica" from "Valurile Dunarii" (Waves of the Danube). What a wonderful song! I was still singing, myself, when the CD first appeared and tried to find the sheet music--unsuccessfully.
