Why Bocelli is a pop artist not an opera singer
NAC
I can't do this thread alone. I just think it should be stated formerly why
the man that has "captured the hearts" of so many is ultimately doing great
damage to classical vocal technique and opera as a whole.
1. Bocelli is the "anti-squillo"
2. Bocelli is not resonant
3. Bocelli does not adhere to techniques that have exhausted for centuries.
shall we continue?
Rick FF
NAC wrote:
No. Stop right there. Everything that can be said on either side of the subject
already has been said, and it's getting tired. Except that to give him credit
for "doing great damage to classical vocal technique and opera as a whole" is
silly beyond belief. Or did you ride to school on a special bus?
------
rickff
if you don't have friends, you don't need Sprint--bernice clifton
Matthew B. Tepper
In article <6i1080$m84$1...@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu>,
ncop...@indiana.edu spake unto the unwashed masses:
>
>I can't do this thread alone. I just think it should be stated
>formerly why the man that has "captured the hearts" of so many is
>ultimately doing great damage to classical vocal technique and opera
>as a whole.
>
>1. Bocelli is the "anti-squillo"
>2. Bocelli is not resonant
>3. Bocelli does not adhere to techniques that have exhausted for
>centuries.
>
>shall we continue?
Does Stefan Zucker still have his radio program in New York? And if
so, has he yet emitted an opinion on this singer?
--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://www.deltanet.com/~ducky/index.htm
My main music page --- http://www.deltanet.com/~ducky/berlioz.htm
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Marcia Dietrich
ric...@aol.com (Rick FF) wrote:
(in response to NAC's comments)
>No. Stop right there. Everything that can be said on either side of the
subject
>already has been said, and it's getting tired. Except that to give him
credit
>for "doing great damage to classical vocal technique and opera as a
whole" is
>silly beyond belief. Or did you ride to school on a special bus?
Hi Rick,
I agree except for the last line. If NAC did need to ride to school on a
special bus, he probably wouldn't be here gracing us with his opinion on
Bocelli.
Marcia
Xise
I don't want to sound arrogant but it seems to me there are two different
groups discussing this subject: (1) trained opera singers and (2) people who
just enjoy listening..
I am not looking down on anybody but an opera singer dedicates his/her whole
life to training and improving his/her technique to get the best results, juts
like any other athlete does. You need strength in your muscles and vocal cords
in order to sound healthy. In the pop world you find stars overnight but
these are only fads that eventually fade with time.
Regards,
Ximena
donpaolo
I think that in the midst of all the screaming, shouting, insulting &
hateful rhetoric you have stated the case extremely well...Bocelli is
nothing more than a "fad"...all the way to the bank.
He is not, by any stretch of a generous & kind imagination, going to endure
as an opera singer, simply because he just does not possess the "right
stuff".
Several contacts who have seen him perform have advised that he is easily
overwhelmed by singing partners, orchestra, piano, whatever.
This is not to say that he cannot be enjoyed for what he is - a pleasant
sounding pop singer, who happens to dip into an aria or ten, that
ultimately all sound the same.
Regards,
DonP.
Xise <xi...@aol.com> wrote in article
<199804271716...@ladder01.news.aol.com>...
joseph ballo
Let's see now: "ultimately doing great
damage to classical vocal technique and opera as a whole."
let's concentrate on: 'opera as a whole'. Here we have an art form
totally divorced from any contact with popular culture 'as a whole'. So
what is the sin of Mr. Bocelli? Why he involves people in it!! What
nerve! What effrontery! He leads people to listen to it. What right do
they have, these great unwashed masses who don't spend $150 for a
mediocre performance in a barn of a house (pace Met) to listen to a
Puccini aria or even - gasp - a Neapolitan song? .
I mean how much more damage can be done to 'opera as a whole' after the
elite snobs, opera queens, claque organizers and fans of over-the-hill
divas from zeroth-rate minor European principalities have gotten
finished with it..
Let me clue you all into something. Opera is musical theater. Not the
only form of musical theater but the greatest of them. Not a vocal
endurance contest. Not an athletic display of vocal pyrotechnics. I
cannot but believe in my heart that the truly great composers of this
greatest of all forms of musical theater, Verdi, Wagner, Strauss, Mozart
et al would not have had anything but the greatest contempt for the
views expressed in this NG for Mr. Bocelli's talent.
Flame Away. Disgusting!!!
drjoe
dtritter
On the contrary, those composers would have had the greatest of contempt
for an interloping dollar driven [or name your currency] undertalented
club singer who demonstrates that hype is all and talent means nothing
and that pandering to the lowest common denominator is fit demonstration
that you can fool some of the people all of the time. e tardi al ballo.
dft
Ralph Giorno
>silly beyond belief. Or did you ride to school on a special bus?
Yes he rides to school on the bus for the vocally challenged.
Ralph Giorno
NAC wrote in message <6i1080$m84$1...@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu>...
>I can't do this thread alone. I just think it should be stated formerly
why
>the man that has "captured the hearts" of so many is ultimately doing great
>damage to classical vocal technique and opera as a whole.
>
>1. Bocelli is the "anti-squillo"
>2. Bocelli is not resonant
>3. Bocelli does not adhere to techniques that have exhausted for
centuries.
>
>shall we continue?
Hey creep, why don't you read EG's review in gramophone magazine, so you can
learn what real singers are all about. You're the one who is exhausted.
>
>
mdclark
On Mon, 27 Apr 1998 13:52:17 -0400, joseph ballo
<Bal...@mediasoft.net> wrote:
>Let me clue you all into something. Opera is musical theater. Not the
>only form of musical theater but the greatest of them. Not a vocal
>endurance contest. Not an athletic display of vocal pyrotechnics. I
>cannot but believe in my heart that the truly great composers of this
>greatest of all forms of musical theater, Verdi, Wagner, Strauss, Mozart
>et al would not have had anything but the greatest contempt for the
>views expressed in this NG for Mr. Bocelli's talent.
>
>Flame Away. Disgusting!!!
>
>drjoe
You are wrong....musical theater is not so vocally difficult
(although difficult in other ways) .....and I am a tenor who sings
Dramatic opera rep. and have also sung my share of musical theater
when I was younger. In many ways opera IS a vocal endurance contest
and for many (more florid) voices...it IS a display of vocal
pyrotechnics. If you are going to judge the technical nuances of
both...you should be able to sing both! Mr. Bocelli is
talented....just not an "opera singer"!
Marc Donovan Clark
AT
i can only ask, if such is the case, why did they write al the pyros?
why is about ten years of studying the technique needed to sing them needed
correctly?
'cause the masters wrote what they wanted to hear, and if they said f f f f
f f f as in the case of forza, you better be a vocal athlete or you are not
simply "following the composer's wish". and my friend , you have to have
endurance, how can you stand 5 hours of wagnerian singing without it?
a t
mdclark
On Mon, 27 Apr 1998 21:07:32 GMT, mdc...@ix.netcom.com (mdclark)
wrote:
> You are wrong....musical theater is not so vocally difficult
>(although difficult in other ways) .....and I am a tenor who sings
>Dramatic opera rep. and have also sung my share of musical theater
>when I was younger. In many ways opera IS a vocal endurance contest
>and for many (more florid) voices...it IS a display of vocal
>pyrotechnics. If you are going to judge the technical nuances of
>both...you should be able to sing both! Mr. Bocelli is
>talented....just not an "opera singer"!
>
> Marc Donovan Clark
I've just been rehearsing Otello......I'm still stewing over this one!
Musical theater is crooning and belting......this can be done by high
school students.....opera is singing "on the breath" (or "above the
cords" as I think of it). High schools perform Camelot and Jesus
Christ Superstar....they seldom (if ever?) perform Faust or
Turandot.....this is because it takes YEARS to develop a correct
(opera) technique. How often has Robert Goulet been Scarpia...Mandy
Patinkon(?) performed Samson?! The inverse......think about how
"horribly effective" Jose and Kiri were in West Side Story! Musical
theater has a few monster-tough roles (ie. Sweeny Todd)....but.....GET
REAL!
They are not the same! NOT EVEN!!!..........
Marc Donovan Clark
PrinceMyshkin
Did not check this thread until an idle moment today. Have to say that I agree
with the general tenor of it -- opera is an order of magnitude away from any
other kind of singing. It is vocal athletics, if you will, and as much a matter
of stamina as of talent. It is not enough to be a wispy soprano with a
marvelous range and unbelievable control if you cannot be heard over the
orchestra pit without a microphone stuck in your face. And I mean stuck in your
face, not body mikes or floor mikes or suspended mikes. You must fill the house
however large it may be on your voice alone, and for hours on end. Those people
are not sweating (sorry, ladies, glowing) because it's hot up there. It is an
accomplishment that will forever amaze me and fill me with wonder. It is
thrilling. Which is not to say that every such performance merits a standing
ovation. That's what they do. They are paid for it.
By the way, who is this Bocelli person? Never seen him, never heard him that I
know of. Another Mario Lanza? (Some say he had the talent and the stamina to go
the distance, but who knows? Movie performances tell you almost nothing.)
Which is still no excuse to dump over anyone who feels that Bocelli (or X) may
be something that person thinks to be pretty good. I mean dumps with
obscenities. I don't mean reasoned discourse. And there has been a fair amount
of reasoned discourse here concerning why Mr. Bocelli does not measure up to
high operatic standard.
katr...@aol.com
In article <3544fb08...@nntp.ix.netcom.com>,
mdc...@ix.netcom.com (mdclark) wrote:
> I've just been rehearsing Otello......I'm still stewing over this one!
> Musical theater is crooning and belting......this can be done by high
> school students.....opera is singing "on the breath" (or "above the
> cords" as I think of it). High schools perform Camelot and Jesus
> Christ Superstar....they seldom (if ever?) perform Faust or
> Turandot.....this is because it takes YEARS to develop a correct
> (opera) technique. How often has Robert Goulet been Scarpia...Mandy
> Patinkon(?) performed Samson?! The inverse......think about how
> "horribly effective" Jose and Kiri were in West Side Story! Musical
> theater has a few monster-tough roles (ie. Sweeny Todd)....but.....GET
> REAL!
> They are not the same! NOT EVEN!!!..........
>
> Marc Donovan Clark
Ok, ok, hold on just a minute here...I think there's a slight
misunderstanding.
Opera IS "musical theater" in the sense that it is the ultimate combination
of music and drama--and IMHO it is absolutely necessary to be highly trained
in both areas to be a convincing operatic performer. It takes years to
develop a correct SINGING technique--and, I'm sure you've noticed, once one
has learned correct singing it is possible to sing almost any kind of music
(perhaps "thrash metal" excepted?), provided one also takes the time to
develop the correct musical style for what he or she sings (in other words,
Kiri and Jose sang "West Side Story" just fine, but the style was wrong.
Dawn Upshaw--again, IMHO-- is one of the few who does both well).
It is also necessary to be well-trained in these areas to be a convincing
performer of contemporary "Broadway-style" musicals (and yes, I have 10 years
of performing experience in this area, although now I sing opera pretty much
exclusively). If you want to discuss the lamentable state of performance on
the Broadway stage today (with a few exceptions, like Rebecca Luker), that's
a subject for an entirely different thread, and I'll be glad to bemoan it
right along with you.
I don't necessarily think that Mr. Bocelli has the technique--i.e. formal
training*--to successfully sing either opera or Broadway style correctly, and
THIS is what makes him a "pop" singer rather than an opera singer. Perhaps,
given time and training, he could develop into an operatic tenor. If he
wants to record and perform opera because he loves it, well and good, and I
salute him for it. That said, I CANNOT compare him technically to singers
who have spent many years and much money formally training their voices to
cope with the demands of the music.
*I could be wrong about this--I don't know much about Bocelli's background.
If he is indeed formally trained, would someone please tell me where and with
whom and for how long he studied voice? Thanks very much.
Once again, posting with the greatest of trepidation,
A Soprano who is too Tall for Broadway (no kidding)
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katr...@aol.com
In article <6i554g$tjv$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
katr...@aol.com wrote:
>
*a very long rant*
>
Just one more little addendum. I realized in re-reading that I left out
perhaps the most important aspect of being an opera singer...the need for an
"operatic" voice! There are, of course, singers who have the training but
lack the basic voice quality to sing opera. I apologize. I never meant to
imply that all you need is technique and training!
Once again, that pesky Tall Soprano
CT
Hi all,
I am new to this newsgroup. I stumbled upon opera quite by chance some 4
years ago. An unidentified short-haired 40-ish(?) soprano was singing the
rage aria of the Queen of the Night on TV and it just sent chills down my
spine though I couldn't understand a word of German.
I went to the music library and listened to various soprani huff and puff
or breeze through it. I was hooked. Though paradoxically, not to German
opera but to Italian Mozart's - Don Giovanni, Le Nozze, Cosi. I am waiting
to be much more fluent in German to tackle Die Zau..
Let me say, that I find this ng very interesting and instructive, although
at times, intimidating.
There! Now that I have de-lurked properly, I shall proceed with a simple
stupid question. Please feel free to direct me to your favourite book,
author, method, whatever.
> perhaps the most important aspect of being an opera singer...the need for
an
> "operatic" voice! There are, of course, singers who have the training
but
> lack the basic voice quality to sing opera. I apologize. I never meant
to
> imply that all you need is technique and training!
>
> Once again, that pesky Tall Soprano
How do you know if someone as yet untrained, has or will have an "operatic
voice"? I seriously doubt that there is a cut and dry answer...
Can you venture a guess from the volume of that person's speaking voice?
I.e. are naturally soft-spoken people automatically disqualified and must
therefore be satisfied with singing musical theatre once they have been
through formal training ?
Please answer privately if you feel this is too elementary for the rest of
the ng!!
Thanks in advance.
Michael Volpe
I posted a note on Bocelli earlier (have a look at it) and only
afterwards did I see CT's posting. CT perfectly illustrates my point.
Here is a person who came across a piece of opera, found it a thrill
(didn't know the technicalities of the piece, of the voice etc) and is
now on a road of discovery. But wait, s/he wants to know more, enjoy
more, but finds the opera ng intimidating. INTIMIDATING for god's sake.
I don't blame him/her. As I have said before, whilst there is a great
deal of purposeful discussion here on the intracacies of opera, CT would
just have to look at the spleen vented on some Bocelli fans to wonder
what s/he has got him/herself into.
A word of advice for CT. Don't worry about the technicalities of opera.
Don't concern yourself with understanding German - read the libretto.
Don't confine yourself to CD if you have the chance to visit opera.
Allow it to grab you by the guts - like any other artform might - render
you speechless, wash over you and wrap you up as if in cotton wool.
Don't search for the precise meaning of words, don't torment yourself
(yet) with subtext, with vocal technique, with tempi, with tone, with
cultural political correctitudes. Allow the tears to roll down your
cheeks. Do not be intimidated by someone who has trawled the archives in
search of the definitve "Capriccio" and who looks along the nose at you
for being new to opera - do not defer to their "greater" knowledge or
follow a course set for you by someone of differing tastes. Ask your
questions without fear of riducle for doing so. Take part in this group
if you wish and don't tremble as you type "I like Roberto Alagna" or any
other such praise (or condemnation). Say your piece, listen to the music
and when you sit in an opera house with a thousand other people, comfort
yourself with the knowledge that most others there with you are there
for the love of it - to enjoy THAT performance, to experience the
surprises it may throw up and the "vital trust" between you and those
performers.
Intimidated by opera? Mozart, Verdi, Puccini, Wagner, et al. would not
have countenanced such a thought. Nor would the peasants and populus of
Italy, France, Germany of old. So neither should you. Remember the first
time you heard that Queen of the night aria. That is how it should be
always. Believe me, if you find out who it was you heard on that first
occassion and posted the name on this ng, I bet there are many who would
tear that performance to shreds. How then would you feel?
Listen on CT. Trust your own pleasures.
Mike Volpe
CT
Thank you Michael for your words of encouragement and advice.
Yes, I am keeping in touch with the Bocelli controversy. He sounds
pleasing enough. And if he can get previously indifferent people
interested in the classical repertoire, that's definitely a plus.
If I remember right, Callas herself was criticized during her lifetime for
the "gaps" in her registers.
Yet, from what I have read, she seems to have USED those "faults" for
dramatic purposes. I think that's genius. Not that I am putting both on
the same level though.
My 0.02 worth.
Chris
Michael Volpe
Chris,
You are dead right about Callas. Her voice was oft described as ugly -
let me quote from an article I haev just commissioned froma prominent
BBC presenter of opera;
"..colorature asuggests a colouring, an array of light and shadows, that
the excess of the music actually opens up the fantastic realm of the
imagination for the voice to express; Maria Callas was prepared to
scrifice everything for that perfecct expression."
There is a book called "A song of love and death" by Peter Conrad and
is published by Chatto and Windus, London 1987. This gives wonderful
descriptions of Callas performances the strange noise, breaths the
drama. You should read it.
Enjoy your journey
Mike
Ancona21
Mike Volpe wrote:
<<There is a book called "A song of love and death" by Peter Conrad and
is published by Chatto and Windus, London 1987. This gives wonderful
descriptions of Callas performances the strange noise, breaths the
drama. You should read it.>>
A fascinating and informative book, despite its context of Jungian claptrap.
In his afterword to the 1996 edition, Conrad remarks:
". . . there are still great voices, and distinctive vocal personalities to go
with them--for instance, among the men, Roberto Alagna, a bumptiously healthy
tenor to shame the elderly bleating and cheating of Pavarotti, Domingo, and
Carreras as they wearily traipse around the commercial circuit."
Ancona21
Nemo me impune lacessit
April Robillos
Bravo!! I felt my chest tighten and a lump on my throat as I read
M. Volpe's post. Thank you for speaking on behalf of all of us who listen
to opera for pure pleasure, and whose ability to discuss the finer points
of orchestration, interpretation, vocal proficiency, and others is still
quite a few years down the road.