Watson and Opera Babes..be afraid

RKBB

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Jul 6, 2002, 3:50:13 AM7/6/02

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Recently at work I checked out samples of both the Opera Babe's 'Beyond
Imagination' (my favourite track being from a little known Puccini Opera
'Sharka Butterfly') and horror of horror's Russell Watson's new CD 'Encore'.
Difficult to know what to say...harmless enough in themselves I guess but
the undercurrent is what worries me. People come into the store and just
love them, real fans. And who the hell am I to tell them they have no taste
etc etc. Someone once asked me if we sold much Boccelli to which I replied
'We can't sell Melchior let alone Boccelli'. Her response was a blank look
and the expected 'who'?
What worries me there will come a day when the Babes and Russells of this
world will somehow be placed in the same category as, dare I say, 'real'
operatic voices.
I think most of the audiences for this type of crossover pseudo Operatic
crap would not feel too comfortable in an Opera House with all dress codes
and pomp' that often goes with it. Although in the case of one Russell fan
she was going to see Rondine at Holland Pk.
In a way I feel that the Operatic world is in part responsible for creating
the breeding ground for such people as the Babes and Watson to appear. A
way for the people who might not want to go to an Opera House to hear the
same rep' (done in a very special way!!) with a more 'club' style atmosphere
where its safe not to dress up, be worried about looking foolish if you
can't say the names of Operas, Arias etc.
In defence of the Babes and Watson all I would say is that they do look much
better in short dresses then I do and Watson's new CD does offer a couple of
items above the usual cut off point 'A'. Che Gelida Manina, (which doesn't
sound transposed, but who knows how many takes are in the one recording)
Celeste Aida. There is, God forbid, the odd note (very odd note) that
doesn't sound as thin, nasal or duck like then the others but at the end of
the day these people have good careers, enthusiastic fans and I'm selling
their CDs instead of being approached by Decca/Sony to record for them.
Having a career is tough enough so I say good luck to them all with the
short dresses, odd African drum backings, duck like tone, nasal- to- the-
point- of- pain -threshold- production.
I just hope after all this settles down there'll be a place left for us
singers who did it the tough way...ie study, chorus work.
Decca and Sony may well have created a monster.
All the best,
RKBB

Skip

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Jul 6, 2002, 3:51:27 AM7/6/02

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I wouldn't worry about it, people who know the difference between real opera
singers, and pure crap won't let it happen..........
"RKBB" <rkb...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
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RKBB

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Jul 6, 2002, 4:07:31 AM7/6/02

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Dear Skip,
Whereas I know what you're saying people genuinely do love the Babes and
Watson. Now, I don't care too much for what they do, but I don't feel I
have the right to say 'Excuse me Sir/Madam but you have absolutely no
****ing taste in music...why don't you go sit in an elevator and listen for
free'. I'm not trying to defend this type of crossover crap...but I don't
think it'll go away in a hurry...so those of us that prefer the Melchoirs,
Varney's and voices generally larger then the average Sparrow flatulence
(unless its heavily miked) perhaps should offer some gentle suggestions to
such folk.
Perhaps after listening to Melchoir the said lady wouldn't care for Russell
anymore (although she might like the way he looks in jeans, which I don't
think Melchoir at any time could match)...and then again she might think
Melchoir is a third rate belter....ok, that's fine with me....if that's what
she really thinks. But at least she has a choice and might go looking for
other tenors to compare Russell baby with.
Regards,
RKBB

Skip

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Jul 6, 2002, 4:09:40 AM7/6/02

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What happens with these people, even if you play them Melchoir, or Varney,
they will still think the others are better.... Even if Rosa Ponselle was on
a stage singing to them, they would have no idea of what they are listening
to........
They get a certain sound in their heads, no matter how bad, but will defend
it to the end..........Deaf? Could be.......

"RKBB" <rkb...@hotmail.com> wrote in message

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RKBB

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Jul 6, 2002, 4:24:23 AM7/6/02

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I think in many cases its more that people are afraid of looking stupid if
they don't know the Operatic traditions, something about the language and
the whole stigma of Wagner. Most people are more curious about the ancient
transfers of Melchoir etc that I play and show little interest in buying
them. The people who have been around voices of the 40s, 50s and 60s would
tend to steer clean of the Phillipa Giordanos (yep, remember her) Babes and
Watson's of this world. I think if they could experience voices like
Melchoir, Ponselle etc live, unmiked then the Watson would certainly have to
wonder how such sounds were produced without amplification but where can the
average person (an to a large extent I include myself in this category) go
to hear such voices. Covent Garden (costs over a days pay for me to sit on
an orange crate). ENO..my preferred house but looked down upon by many for
its productions in English...but affordable and nice atmosphere. The
English just don't seem to produce gutsy tenors...the Welsh yes, in
abundance but I can't think of any English tenor (other then perhaps
Langdrige) with any real power. Baritones, well, that's a different story
as with Sopranos.
Also the media are right behind the Babes, Watsons etc....you can catch the
Babes on morning TV (when there's reception that is) quite often.
Regards,
RKBB

Skip

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Jul 6, 2002, 4:31:14 AM7/6/02

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All true,
I think people who know the real stuff from crap, will keep the real singers
on the operatic stage........I wouldn't worry about any of them in a real
staged opera on a real stage, first off, they wouldn't be able to get
through an entire opera, or sound dreadful if they tried, such as
bocelli..........besides, what would any of them do without the aid of a
mic?

"RKBB" <rkb...@hotmail.com> wrote in message

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Operatunenity

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Jul 6, 2002, 6:14:20 AM7/6/02

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>Decca and Sony may well have created a monster.

And they probably get off on knowing that they had the power to change the
course of things, not to mention making a lot of money. It's sad when art is
commercialized to the point of absurdity. Iconism is a big business.

Bernard Gould

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Jul 6, 2002, 6:52:26 AM7/6/02

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I wouldn't worry about it, people who know the difference between real opera
singers, and pure crap won't let it happen..........

What you going to do shoot the people who buy their Cds!!
Lets get a posse and a neck tie party together, for all these misguided
people!!
Degenerate art well we know where that road leads!!
Fait accompli!!Enjoy the music you love and leave other's to do the same!!
What are you afraid of new ideas?Opera will stay the same, for the purist
and also merge into popular culture !

The old order changeth,yielding place to new
And God/Man Fulfils Himself in many ways,

Bernard

"Skip" <sk...@nyc.rr.com> wrote in message
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Skip

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Jul 6, 2002, 7:06:50 AM7/6/02

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New ideas? What idea are you talking about? Accepting bad singing, singing
opera into a mic? People can buy what they wish, listen to whatever they
want, but when they come into this NG and call this crap opera singing, you
bet your sweet bippi, I'll say something...........Just because these so
called singers are popular at the moment, we don't have to buy into that
crap here.

"Bernard Gould" <gm...@dial.pipex.com> wrote in message
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Bernard Gould

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Jul 6, 2002, 7:27:47 AM7/6/02

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Oh please Skip, I love Opera as much as anyone else here
but its a dead art form,with know where to go!Relevant a hundred years ago
to the masses!!Now its relevant to a small minority, It will die, but the
recorded legacy
will live on, like the paintings of the old master's!!

Bernard

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Skip

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Jul 6, 2002, 7:28:54 AM7/6/02

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Now I know you're crazy, it is hardly a dead art form, people go to the
opera all over the world, and many houses have a full audience, and
completely sold out, of course depending on the opera and cast.....
I don't think it will die anytime soon, maybe if we are subjected to the
likes of bocelli/church/watson singing it, that would be reason for it to
die...........

"Bernard Gould" <gm...@dial.pipex.com> wrote in message

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Skip

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Jul 6, 2002, 7:32:43 AM7/6/02

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Also, since it is a dead art form, I would first like to know what facts you
base that on, and also if it is a dead art form, please let me know all the
opera houses that have closed world-wide since it died..............

"Bernard Gould" <gm...@dial.pipex.com> wrote in message

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Bernard Gould

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Jul 6, 2002, 8:11:38 AM7/6/02

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Also, since it is a dead art form

Why then do people who subscribe to this forum, constantly complain about
the
dearth of singer's and their lack of talent!!
It's the masses that have forsaken Opera!!It is no longer popular culture re
Verdi!!

Bernard

"Skip" <sk...@nyc.rr.com> wrote in message

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Skip

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Jul 6, 2002, 8:12:01 AM7/6/02

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I think you are very wrong..........this small group does not speak for the
entire world......... Many people still go to the opera to hear the singers
that people complain about here..............
It still isn't a dead art form, in Verdi's time, the world didn't have as
many opera houses, nor people, so I think your argument doesn't hold
water....... In fact, I think there are more people listening and going to
the opera today, then in Verdi's time...........

"Bernard Gould" <gm...@dial.pipex.com> wrote in message

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Derrick Everett

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Jul 6, 2002, 8:16:51 AM7/6/02

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On Sat, 06 Jul 2002 10:24:23 +0200, RKBB wrote:

> I think in many cases its more that people are afraid of looking stupid
> if they don't know the Operatic traditions, something about the language
> and the whole stigma of Wagner.

What are YOU doing to eradicate these ill-informed prejudices -- apart
from whining about them?

--
Derrick Everett (deverett at c2i.net)
==== Writing from 59°54'N 10°36'E ====
http://home.c2i.net/monsalvat/index.htm

RKBB

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Jul 6, 2002, 8:34:18 AM7/6/02

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What are YOU doing to eradicate these ill-informed prejudices -- apart
from whining about them?

I'm actually on the side of people having free choice...its not my intention
to 'whin' about them, which I didn't think I did nor is it my place to say
which music, composer singer is better...all I was trying to say is that
often people feel safer with the crossover stuff rather then risking being
looked down upon for not knowing how to pronounce the titles, know the
composers etc etc. Most people, it seems to me, are simply not aware of, or
too worried about dealing with judgemental people, to venture into Operatic
singing. Hey, if people love Watson, Operababes etc I don't mind...good
luck to them, have a good life. But it would be a pity not to explore other
singers etc simply because of the stigma attached.
Regards,
RKBB

Skip

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Jul 6, 2002, 8:49:16 AM7/6/02

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The people who want to explore other singers will, the ones who stay with
the crap singers will miss out.

"RKBB" <rkb...@hotmail.com> wrote in message

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Bernard Gould

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Jul 6, 2002, 8:57:52 AM7/6/02

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Thanks Skip
So give me an Opera that was written in 2002, that I have to see
and no doubt I will come out with an aria still in my head !
and the composer understands what it is to live here and now!!

Bernard

"Skip" <sk...@nyc.rr.com> wrote in message

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Skip

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Jul 6, 2002, 9:01:05 AM7/6/02

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Give me a great work of art such as a Rembrant that was painted in 2002.
You really have no point....... Great Art as Great Music will go
on...............You still have not proven any of your facts about opera
being a dead art form......... nor have you given me the name of one opera
house that has closed as a result of this so called death........
Why are there so many voice students all over the world studing
voice/opera........ very young students.........so I really doubt this is a
dying art form.........

"Bernard Gould" <gm...@dial.pipex.com> wrote in message

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gerberk

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Jul 6, 2002, 9:34:23 AM7/6/02

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He has a point if the last great opera that is very good is from 1945
(Grimes) and the last good painting is from say 1930.Some abstract painting
is pretty good if not great and Bernstein wrote West Side Story in the
60s.There is some hope.
...

Bernard Gould

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Jul 6, 2002, 9:33:58 AM7/6/02

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Dear Skip
Rembrandt new nothing of Sept 11, neither did Verdi each,
had their own agenda an art for the people.So give me an Opera that was
written
in 2002 that I have to see and the composer understands what it is like to
live here and now post Sept 11!

Bernard

"Skip" <sk...@nyc.rr.com> wrote in message

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Skip

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Jul 6, 2002, 9:32:10 AM7/6/02

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yes, but my point is, that great opera as great art will survive...........
"gerberk" <ger...@home.nl> wrote in message
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Skip

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Jul 6, 2002, 9:41:32 AM7/6/02

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What does sept 11th have to do with anything? Donizetti knew nothing of
WW1, what's your point? Just because you haven't heard of anything written
in 2002, doesn't mean it hasn't been written, or isn't being written, and
besides, even if nothing great is written for the next 50 years, people will
still listen to the great opera's already written, just the same way as they
will look at fine art, new people are born everyday and will discover music
and art as they grow, and it will be new to them. You still haven't
proven any of your "facts"..........Can you name one opera house in the
world that has closed because opera is a dead art form?

"Bernard Gould" <gm...@dial.pipex.com> wrote in message

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gerberk

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Jul 6, 2002, 9:59:32 AM7/6/02

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Sure it will but if all they do is just stage another Verdi or Mozart to
name the more human composers it will only repeat itself and eventually just
be for snobs.
Skip heeft geschreven in bericht ...

Matthew B. Tepper

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Jul 6, 2002, 9:58:30 AM7/6/02

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"RKBB" <rkb...@hotmail.com> wrote in
news:VixV8.59275$2c3.5...@news.easynews.com:

> In a way I feel that the Operatic world is in part responsible for
> creating the breeding ground for such people as the Babes and Watson
> to appear.

This is total BS. I pretty much agree with the rest of what you wrote,
however.

--
Matthew B. Tepper: WWW, science fiction, classical music, ducks!
My personal home page -- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/index.html
My main music page --- http://home.earthlink.net/~oy/berlioz.html
To write to me, do for my address what Androcles did for the lion
Top 3 worst UK exports: Mad-cow; Foot-and-mouth; Charlotte Church

Bernard Gould

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Jul 6, 2002, 10:04:53 AM7/6/02

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yes, but my point is, that great opera as great art will survive...........

Thanks Skip\
great art will always survive, but we live in peculiar times, our fears are
different
but we still need to love.How does Opera 2002, address these issues post
Sept 11!!

Bernard

"Skip" <sk...@nyc.rr.com> wrote in message

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Jul 6, 2002, 10:23:22 AM7/6/02

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"gerberk" <ger...@home.nl> wrote in
news:EPCV8.200931$3g4.17...@zwoll1.home.nl:

> Art has nothing to do with politics. [PUT A SPACE IN HERE!] The

> composer Hindemith called the 9/11 attacks a great work of art.

> [PUT A SPACE IN HERE!] It[APOSTROPHE!]s a totally different world.

Paul Hindemith died in 1963, so his opinion of the 9/11 attacks is not
easily obtainable.

gerberk

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Jul 6, 2002, 10:28:32 AM7/6/02

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Jul 6, 2002, 10:27:52 AM7/6/02

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Are you kidding? Maybe art itself has nothing to do with politics, but
politics has a lot to do with art.

Skip

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Jul 6, 2002, 10:28:54 AM7/6/02

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You make no sense, why should it? I'm still waiting for your facts about
opera being a dead art form...........

"Bernard Gould" <gm...@dial.pipex.com> wrote in message

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RKBB

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Jul 6, 2002, 10:33:42 AM7/6/02

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This is total BS. I pretty much agree with the rest of what you wrote,
however.

I'll take that as a compliment....I think!!!! But I do feel that the many
factions of the Opera world from public, to houses, record companies etc
have contributed to the feeling of Opera being not something for everyday
people to enjoy but rather something for certain factions to display their
knowledge, high tastes etc in.
When Opera Australia were doing marketing they found that it was better to
advertise ticket sales in English rather then the original language as
people were more likely to ask for 'Two tickets to The Pearl Fishers please'
rather then struggle with the French title. The Opera was given in French
with subtitles, which I think are a good thing. What worries me in someway
is that someone might feel that they can't ask for a ticket to Bizet's Pearl
Fishers (or Oyster Finders as someone once asked) without feeling worried
about getting it wrong. This is why I think some members of the public feel
more at home with crossover singers like Watson etc because they can freely
say 'You sing that Nissan Doormat really well mate' and genuinely mean it.
Now, to me that doesn't make them any less of a music lover or a die hard
Operatic person superior...what's important is that they gave the aria a go
and are now in a position to explore other singers but sometimes the Opera
House, and die hard Opera lovers can be a barrier to such an experience.
Regards,
RKBB

gerberk

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Jul 6, 2002, 10:41:15 AM7/6/02

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You know very well it was beautiful to watch these towers fall ,fascinating
and full of awe .I never saw anything like it on tv.Symbols of capitalism
being destroyed by a few airplanes.So much for the beauty.A true work of
art.You didn't see the massmurder happening.

Skip

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Jul 6, 2002, 10:38:29 AM7/6/02

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I think anyone with an I.Q. over 80 if they can't pronounce a few words they
will find out how, the same way a person who looses directions will ask for
help.......
It comes down to two things, either you want to learn or you
don't............I think that's a poor excuse for people wanting to listen
to watson because they can't pronounce a title..........
please............People from all over the world come to nyc to see broadway
shows and some do not speak a word of English, but manage to get
tickets...........

"RKBB" <rkb...@hotmail.com> wrote in message

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Skip

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Jul 6, 2002, 10:41:26 AM7/6/02

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Listen, I think you need professional help......

I found NO SUCH BEAUTY AT ALL....... I worked on the top floor at Windows On
the World for 5 years, and all I saw was complete horror, and the thought of
how terrified the people inside must have felt. You must be very
young................

"gerberk" <ger...@home.nl> wrote in message

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Bernard Gould

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Jul 6, 2002, 10:48:31 AM7/6/02

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Well opera is an act of beauty, violence, romance etc....... but I think
anyone who would look at a tragic event such as 9/11 and compare it to art,
has a sick mind.......

Oh come on Skip,
you know better than this I'm not comparing it to art,I'm looking to try and
understand the world we are living in now 2002!! NOT 1880!!!

Bernard

"Skip" <sk...@nyc.rr.com> wrote in message

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Skip

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Jul 6, 2002, 10:44:57 AM7/6/02

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Every part of history had it's changing times..... When ever a great event
changed things, it was also called, "these are different times" What is
there to understand? Anything different? Vietnam, WW11, Korean War, Cold
war? What's so different? We live in a world that has constant conflicts,
when have we ever had peace in the world?

"Bernard Gould" <gm...@dial.pipex.com> wrote in message

Skip

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Jul 6, 2002, 11:17:54 AM7/6/02

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Which legitimate companies are we talking about? bocelli in detroit? This
soon will pass, not one of them could ever get through an entire opera
anyway, especially without a mic..............
"Operatunenity" <operat...@aol.com> wrote in message
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Bernard Gould

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Jul 6, 2002, 11:06:01 AM7/6/02

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You make no sense, why should it? I'm still waiting for your facts about
opera being a dead art form...........

Well lets try to put a point forward ,
Has 19 th century Opera any relevance to the problems we face today, of
Corporate greed,
Sept 11,Eminem !!

Keep IT coming Skip

Bernard

"Skip" <sk...@nyc.rr.com> wrote in message

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Bernard Gould

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Jul 6, 2002, 11:43:33 AM7/6/02

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How do I get THROUGH TO THIS GROUP MY PAIN IS NOW!!!
not 1918, NOT 1939, not Vietnam , BUT Sept 11,
What composer has addressed the issue !!what Opera 2002, HAS ADRESSED THIS
ISSUE

B ernard

"gerberk" <ger...@home.nl> wrote in message

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Bernard Gould

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Jul 6, 2002, 12:01:15 PM7/6/02

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Opera will live or die by bums on seats; perhaps these people will want to
shield themselves
from the real world,understandable!!,but great art addresses the issues of
it's day!!
In our own era the pain is too close for comfort!!!

Bernard

Skip" <sk...@nyc.rr.com> wrote in message

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Matthew B. Tepper

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Jul 6, 2002, 1:40:07 PM7/6/02

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"gerberk" <ger...@home.nl> wrote in
news:xgDV8.200981$3g4.17...@zwoll1.home.nl:

> You know very well it was beautiful to watch these towers fall

PLONK.

Well, that takes care of my complaints about the irritating punctuation
too, I guess. Not to mention those posts consisting of three- or four-
line comments, followed by 500 lines of cascading quotes (all poorly
formatted so that most of them are orphans from the previous lines).

Whew! I wonder what took me so long?

gerberk

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Jul 6, 2002, 2:22:03 PM7/6/02

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You judge easily Tepper.You are implying that i love to watch people
dying.Now it may surprise you but i dont.And what is more you know that.

Andre Storfer

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Jul 6, 2002, 3:26:38 PM7/6/02

to

Surely Sir, you jest,
Matthew B. Tepper [of the California B. Teppers] judgemental?
He has killfiled me so often my body bears "PLONK" scars to this
day.
Yet all may not be lost. Life goes on.
AES

gerberk

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Jul 6, 2002, 3:44:50 PM7/6/02

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I know Storfer its hard with these guys like Tepper.He looks nice even human
on his picture but what goes on in this mind of his.This thing about ducks
is suspicious,he could be dangerous,but as for now i have no reason to
report him to the FBI or any other institution.However his website is or
could be potentially dangerous.
<3D274547...@attbi.com>...

Andre Storfer

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Jul 6, 2002, 3:50:40 PM7/6/02

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Quiet..please..it's a secret we share with him.
Ask Don Paolo...patron of conspiricies at rmo.
AES

Jonathan Sydenham

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Jul 6, 2002, 4:03:27 PM7/6/02

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Has anyone considered that if the millions who buy Russell and lovely Miss
Church actually decided to go to the opera the rest of us would be rationed
to just ½ a performance a year if we were lucky? The sheer numbers would be
unmanageable.
Such people do us an enormous favour. Without actually burdening the venues
we love, they make it advantageous for our political leaders to go on
subsidizing the art form. They also make it acceptable for youngsters with
vocal potential to do something about it; pre-Russell, saying you wanted to
sing opera was even less socially acceptable to your teenage peers than
saying you wanted to dance ballet.
It may well be that the major record labels are flunking out of the
classical recording business. But look at the superb, star-studded opera
sets coming out from Opera rara, Naxos, Chandos, and other small labels.
Jonathan

"RKBB" <rkb...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:VixV8.59275$2c3.5...@news.easynews.com...
> Recently at work I checked out samples of both the Opera Babe's 'Beyond
> Imagination' (my favourite track being from a little known Puccini Opera
> 'Sharka Butterfly') and horror of horror's Russell Watson's new CD
'Encore'.
> Difficult to know what to say...harmless enough in themselves I guess but
> the undercurrent is what worries me. People come into the store and just
> love them, real fans. And who the hell am I to tell them they have no
taste
> etc etc. Someone once asked me if we sold much Boccelli to which I
replied
> 'We can't sell Melchior let alone Boccelli'. Her response was a blank
look
> and the expected 'who'?
> What worries me there will come a day when the Babes and Russells of this
> world will somehow be placed in the same category as, dare I say, 'real'
> operatic voices.
> I think most of the audiences for this type of crossover pseudo Operatic
> crap would not feel too comfortable in an Opera House with all dress codes
> and pomp' that often goes with it. Although in the case of one Russell
fan
> she was going to see Rondine at Holland Pk.

> In a way I feel that the Operatic world is in part responsible for
creating

> the breeding ground for such people as the Babes and Watson to appear. A

Skip

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Jul 6, 2002, 4:21:17 PM7/6/02

to

Professional Help.

"Bernard Gould" <gm...@dial.pipex.com> wrote in message

news:3d270fa6$0$8508$cc9e...@news.dial.pipex.com...

gerberk

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Jul 6, 2002, 4:33:13 PM7/6/02

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OK sorry
<3D274AE8...@attbi.com>...

Bernard Gould

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Jul 6, 2002, 5:42:16 PM7/6/02

to

Professional Help.!

Thanks Skip, I respected your point of view though not on the same side!
It,s a pity you have to resort to an insult!!

Bernard

"Skip" <sk...@nyc.rr.com> wrote in message

news:1jIV8.45147$Wi.13...@twister.nyc.rr.com...

Skip

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Jul 6, 2002, 5:38:47 PM7/6/02

to

It wasn't meant to be an insult, many people are trying to deal with this,
some need help through this..........Sorry if it sounded like an insult, it
really wasn't meant to be.

"Bernard Gould" <gm...@dial.pipex.com> wrote in message

news:3d2763b9$0$8506$cc9e...@news.dial.pipex.com...

Bernard Gould

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Jul 6, 2002, 5:54:53 PM7/6/02

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Thanks Skip,
All the very best to you and those you love!

Bernard

"Skip" <sk...@nyc.rr.com> wrote in message

news:HrJV8.45162$Wi.13...@twister.nyc.rr.com...

Leonard Tillman

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Jul 6, 2002, 7:31:55 PM7/6/02

to

>Art has nothing to do with politics.The

> composer Hindemith called the 9/11 attacks a

> great work of art.Its a totally different world.

Are we referring to Paul Hindemith, or some lesser-known
descendant?
Paul Hindemith (an anti-Nazi, btw), having passed on in 1963, would
have had some difficulty in communicating that idea about the 9/11
attacks, it seems to me....

LT
Health-fanatics, ONE FINE DAY, are going to feel foolish, as they lie
in hospitals dying of *nothing*.

Leonard Tillman

unread,

Jul 6, 2002, 7:51:18 PM7/6/02

to

Even giving due respect to the concept of beauty being in the eyes of
its beholders, -- those offering/advancing the idea that the 9/11
attacks, with the towers and their occupants perishing with total
devastation constituted _"beauty" and "art"_ ...should at the very
LEAST realize the unlikelihood of agreement from most of the human
species.

The majority has always considered "beauty", and "art" as synonymous
with "good".

The opposing view of some, may be related to the strangely
conflicted term, "exquisite pain"....which could conceivably define
being subjected to root canal work as an "irresistibly beautiful"
experience.

( -- I know a dentist who would pay WELL for such inspired
advertising slogans.)

LT

---------------------------------
From: sk...@nyc.rr.com (Skip)

>It was beautiful to watch? Now who's
> sick.......... To me it was tragic, hardly
> beautiful.

>Sorry, as long as people create art, it either
> can be immoral or not.........but, that depends
> on what you call immoral

LT

Dr. Speedbyrd:>

unread,

Jul 6, 2002, 8:48:09 PM7/6/02

to

How's that follow up to your threat going, there, shitbag?

Dr. SpeedbyrdŽ
Hallowed be my name....

Dr. Speedbyrd:>

unread,

Jul 6, 2002, 8:48:18 PM7/6/02

to

On Sat, 06 Jul 2002 19:50:40 GMT, Andre Storfer <and...@attbi.com> wrote:

>Quiet..please..it's a secret we share with him.
>Ask Don Paolo...patron of conspiricies at rmo.
>AES

Get lost, loser

>
>gerberk wrote:
>>
>> I know Storfer its hard with these guys like Tepper.He looks nice even human
>> on his picture but what goes on in this mind of his.This thing about ducks
>> is suspicious,he could be dangerous,but as for now i have no reason to
>> report him to the FBI or any other institution.However his website is or
>> could be potentially dangerous.
>> <3D274547...@attbi.com>...
>> >Surely Sir, you jest,
>> > Matthew B. Tepper [of the California B. Teppers] judgemental?
>> > He has killfiled me so often my body bears "PLONK" scars to this
>> >day.
>> > Yet all may not be lost. Life goes on.
>> >AES
>> >
>> >gerberk wrote:
>> >>
>> >> You judge easily Tepper.You are implying that i love to watch people
>> >> dying.Now it may surprise you but i dont.And what is more you know that.

Dr. SpeedbyrdŽ
Hallowed be my name....

Operatunenity

unread,

Jul 6, 2002, 10:10:59 PM7/6/02

to

> The point I was trying to make is that Companies etc
>shouldn't look down on those who for whatever reason fail to do so.

This is almost never the intent or attitude of the company and almost always
the territory of occaisional snob which does not comprise the majority of
people who go to the opera. the last thing a ccompany wants to to is alienate
an audience member. It's a little like the high school student that was picked
on by a few kids in school but was made to feel so bad about himself that he
assumed that all the kids didn't like him.
Also, In Intendent or a member of the administration is obligated to know how
to pronounce a work in it's proper toungue. There is a lot less pomp connected
to opera than you might believe.
a most common conversation that I hear is " I can't stand opera."
" Have you ever seen one?"
" No."
" Then how would you know?"
I remember a conversation by a snob before the advent of surtitles
"Why are they doing this opera in English? It should always be in
Italian."
" Oh, do you speak Italian?"
"Why no, why should I?"

Kimberly

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Jul 7, 2002, 1:05:21 AM7/7/02

to

> Opera will live or die by bums on seats; perhaps these people will want to
> shield themselves
> from the real world,understandable!!,but great art addresses the issues of
> it's day!!
> In our own era the pain is too close for comfort!!!

Our present era is not the only one to experience pain,
disillusionment, greed, political intrigue, war and its related
atrocities. I feel that it is the mark of great art that even in its
anachronistic tableau, it speaks to the commonality of experience of
mankind through the ages through events specific to the artist's time,
or not. Much great art has depicted events and situations that the
artist could never have experienced, but illuminates current events or
feelings and turmoil caused by present events. I feel no less
compassion for the artist or the artistic experience and the
expression thereof, based on chronologic nearness to my time, or
specific events that I have witnessed or been part of. Opera is part
of that artistic record, and lets us express and experience our pain
with those who not only composed, but have performed and witnessed its
power throughout its history. >
>

Mark D Lew

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Jul 7, 2002, 4:13:47 PM7/7/02

to

In article <7945-3D2...@storefull-2276.public.lawson.webtv.net>,
tapef...@webtv.net (Leonard Tillman) wrote:

[answering Gerberk]

> >Art has nothing to do with politics.The
> > composer Hindemith called the 9/11 attacks a
> > great work of art.Its a totally different world.
>
> Are we referring to Paul Hindemith, or some lesser-known
> descendant?

Neither. We are referring to Karlheinz Stockhausen, whose name Gerberk has
mistaken with Hindemith's.

On the weekend after the attack on the WTC, Stockhausen was at a scheduled
press conference about his opera _Licht_. In the opera, the two main
characters are Michael and Lucifer, representing good and evil. In the
course of the discussion, Stockhausen mentioned that the real Lucifer has
shown his presence in New York. When questioned on this point, he called
the attack Lucifer's "greatest work of art".

Personally, I think the metaphor was tasteless and insensitive,
particularly so soon after the attack. Nevertheless, the subsequent
reports that Stockhausen "called the attacks a great work of art" are a
gross and unfair misrepresentation of what he actually said. It was obvious
that he was calling it an evil and destructive act.

A complete transcript of the press conference is available at
<http://www.stockhausen.org/musiktexte_hamburg.html>.

mdl

Bernard Gould

unread,

Jul 8, 2002, 4:29:16 AM7/8/02

to

Thanks Kimberly,
Take a look at Picasso's Guernica,still a difficult painting for some[no
simple analysis]
These are the colors of death [black, greys] This a world of
despair,chaos,desolation,
violence,hostile,uncontrollable, beyond understanding,distress anguish,
terror,mans cruelty
to man, no ode to joy here!!But then mans cruelty to man is beyond
understanding!
So my view would be that there is no answer,great art does not answer the
question it simply
says what are you going to do to make peace and justice
happen,Guernica[1937] a painting for our time
maybe!!

Bernard

"Kimberly" <sopra...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:f395b5a8.02070...@posting.google.com...

HelenMynrd

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Jul 11, 2002, 1:47:21 AM7/11/02

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Jul 12, 2002, 7:16:21 AM7/12/02

to

Why does that surpise you? I'm sure Oprah and the Pope will say the
same.........
"Ricky E." <r.123nosp...@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:5DuX8.4713$7W6....@nwrddc02.gnilink.net...

Leonard Tillman

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Jul 12, 2002, 11:59:27 AM7/12/02

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From: tea...@bc.cablemas.com (Aethelred)

>"Leonard Tillman" <tapef...@webtv.net>
> wrote in message

>news:15323-3D2D8E38-147@storefull-2277.p
>ublic.lawson.webtv.net...

>I finally heard Russell Watson singing Nessun
> Dorma on some patriotic
>>program.......Yikes!..Dreadful!......Ah...well.....

>I can always go back to Bocelli.....(Just

> kidding, Skip!....) Love and sing!........Helen....

> Y'know, with all the mentionings of
> these fellows, and from my hearings of each,
> I've (with due consideraton) reached the
> conclusion that Bocelli is about as superior to
> Watson and Amante, as....hmm...Carreras is
> to Bocelli.

> Unreasonable?
--------------------

>Actually, as a light classical singer, Bocelli isn't
> bad. I enjoy some of his non-operatic
> offerings. I think the complaint is his being
> touted as a serious opera singer, worthy to be
> mentioned in the same breath as Pavarotti,
> Domingo, Carreras, et alia. So, to answer
> your question, no it isn't unreasonable. It is a
> fair comparison, IMHO. Aethelred

It tends to demonstrate that there are many degrees of competence,
excellence, and probably of every quality.

And though we, the majority in this, agree that Bocelli is at
*nowhere near* the vocal level of the "3 - Ts", nor other vocal
phenomena of their prime years and before, -- I must say (donning my
asbestos shield, helmet, and scimitar!) that I'veenjoyed, e.g., AB's La
Boheme recording more than this season's Met broadcast of the work,
which featured the usually brilliant tenor, Ramon Vargas (maybe on an
atypically "bad day", for his voice and interpretation), and also more
than several other "official" operatic tenors' assumptions of Rodolfo in
the recent and distant past.

What's unfortunate, IMO, is the inclination of some to dismiss or
ridicule any performer who doesn't "measure up" to their (and often,
my) already-established ideals, - making for a limited ability to
appreciate much, in the long run.

LT

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Jul 13, 2002, 2:18:31 AM7/13/02

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I have listened to him, to me, he's very painful to listen to.

"HelenMynrd" <helen...@aol.com> wrote in message

news:20020712235051...@mb-cf.aol.com...

Leonard Tillman

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Jul 13, 2002, 3:45:02 AM7/13/02

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From: helen...@aol.com (HelenMynrd)

>Sounds right!....Love ya HelenM

Brava!!! - And I Love Ya right back, Helen!!

Leonarrrdo