Puccini the racist
Stelucia
discovery: Puccini is racist.
Read this: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/02/14/nopera14.xml
REG
Butterfly isn't still under copyright :)
What is interesting is the genesis of the story - it's well known that
Puccini saw it on the stage in English and immediately knew he wanted to
acquire the rights, despite the fact that he understood no English. The play
was credited to David Belasco, an extremely interesting guy, although I
think there is some controversy or lack of clarity about how much of MB he
actually wrote, and how much he just hired someone to do the writing for
him - Belasco was best known as an impressario. SJT and I have had some
discussions about this (I've always had the position that Belasco didn't
write much or any of this, but basically produced it and took credit for the
writing; SJT says there's some evidence that Belasco was the real writer).
My question is, "How much of the alleged factual basis of the story has been
known previously?" Is this really verified information, is it information
that's been around for a while, or what?
If SJT or Thierry or anyone else can clarify this, I would be very
interested.
Thanks
"Stelucia" <Stel...@altavista.net> wrote in message
news:1171452952....@l53g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
J.Venning
news:1171452952....@l53g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
there are hints to paedophilia (Butterfly was supposed to be only 15 years
old) ?
J.
Mrs T xx
> "Stelucia" <Stelu...@altavista.net> wrote in message
>
> news:1171452952....@l53g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...> Some busibody from the race relations industry has made a sensational
> > discovery: Puccini is racist.
> > Read this:
>
> Oh, for God's sake ! What next? Are they going to ban the opera because
> there are hints to paedophilia (Butterfly was supposed to be only 15 years
> old) ?
> J.
Yes, most of the 18th and 19th century operas contain things that are
very un-PC by today's standards but you can't exactly start banning
them all because of it
By that reckoning, Mozart was sexist and racist too. Look at the
Magic Flute - lots of sexist comments about stupid women and their
"Weibersinn" - not to mention all the racist stuff with poor
Monostatos complaining that nobody loves him because black people are
ugly and white is beautiful.
Mrs T xx
Richard Loeb
"Mrs T xx" <mrs.t...@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:1171458209.7...@m58g2000cwm.googlegroups.com...
Yes I never why producers think they have to correct all that "unpleasant"
Monostatos business-surely the history of blackness or darkness or night, as
symbolic representations of evil and mystery need not be traced or
explained. Richard
James Kahn
But this "scholar" is even stupider than that. MB arguably depicts
racist attitudes (I don't think it even does that--it's more
cultural than racial), but given that Pinkerton is clearly the villain,
the opera does not *express* such attitudes. So this is more like
saying "To Kill a Mockingbird" or "In the Heat of the Night" is
racist. What a fool. It's telling that the Japanese "source"
says "I don't think it is racist at all."
--
Jim
New York, NY
(Please remove "nospam." to get my e-mail address)
http://www.panix.com/~kahn
Mark
> "Stelucia" <Stelu...@altavista.net> wrote in message
>
> news:1171452952....@l53g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...> Some busibody from the race relations industry has made a sensational
> > discovery: Puccini is racist.
> > Read this:
>
> Oh, for God's sake ! What next? Are they going to ban the opera because
> there are hints to paedophilia (Butterfly was supposed to be only 15 years
> old) ?
> J.
I think they should ban all operas that contain trans-fats and foie
gras!
oops.
Stelucia
Or Cosi fan tutte. You cannot get more sexist than this. I'm surprised
no feminist has asked for a Mozart ban.
J.Venning
>> By that reckoning, Mozart was sexist and racist too. Look at the
>> Magic Flute - lots of sexist comments about stupid women and their
>> "Weibersinn" - not to mention all the racist stuff with poor
>> Monostatos complaining that nobody loves him because black people are
>> ugly and white is beautiful.
>>
> no feminist has asked for a Mozart ban.
>
Ortrud.
J.
La Donna Mobile
"Prof Parker said that the clearly racist sentiments of Pinkerton, who
derides the Butterfly's relatives and their religious sentiments, need
to be exposed, or distanced, in any modern production."
I just can't accept that. The logical conclusion is that every great
work of art that contains attitudes or depictions at odds with attitudes
of 2007 should be airbrushed, and bowdlerised. the museums are full of
beautiful Greek and Roman statues with hacked-off genitalia because at
some point in history society got squeamish about nakedness. It's not an
exact analogy because I approve of nakedness and not of racism; and a
bowdlerised text can be restored but a vandalised statue can't be. But
in essence, it's all about having a narrow focus that forces the Greats
of history to conform to our sensibilities.
gerberk
tired of political correctness, and the immigrants exploit this idea
that they should be treated equally even if they don't work equally
hard. When I see a fat man, I wanna say fat man, not heavy man. When I
buy recordings of Negro Spirituals, I wanna say Negro Spirituals, not
African American soul songs. What is now Negro Spirituals called in
America anyway? Anyone knows? In Old Man River, I wanna hear the words
Nigger Folks, not Colored Folks. I think it is so stupid to try and
change history.
On Feb 14, 4:52 pm, La Donna Mobile <enidlar...@btinternet.com> wrote:
> Stelucia wrote:
> > Some busibody from the race relations industry has made a sensational
> > discovery: Puccini is racist.
> > Read this:http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/02/14/noper...
La Donna Mobile
I'm not saying apply historical attitudes; I am saying that we should
make a distinction between historical artifacts and how we construct
modern society. In order to understand modern society and history, we
need to have the artifacts unchanged and un-reinterpreted. That doesn't
prevent us from commenting on the artifacts from a 21st century
viewpoint, but in doing so we have to understand that our attitudes are
influenced by changes that took place after those artifacts were laid
down, and not try and project a modern sensibility back to a time when
that sensibility did not exist.
You might as well rid all historic artworks of references to capital
punishment because we don't have capital punishment now; alternatively,
you might as well use the fact that it existed in history as a
justification for it continuing today. We've moved on from there; I
don't want to change the past but I can change the future.
--
http://www.madmusingsof.me.uk/weblog/
http://www.geraldine-curtis.me.uk/photoblog/
La Donna Mobile
Having read his original writings in the Guardian
http://music.guardian.co.uk/classical/operalivereviews/story/0,,2011840,00.html
I accuse Roger Parker of racism and historical ignorance.
I take the sentence "we can fully understand the exact terms of
Pinkerton's racist sentiments in act one. We find out that Butterfly is
supposed to be just 15 years old"
What is racist about a piece of work that has a fifteen-year-old married
off?
He is writing from a blinkered 21st century point-of-view that thinks
that because the current age of consent in England is 16 (but in any
case blurred at 13-15), that this is the case universally and has been
the case for ever. If he knew the first thing about history he would
know that under English Law, the age of consent ie the marriageable age
in England was 12 until 1875, and only became 16 in 1885, less than 20
years before Madama Butterfly was premiered. Across Europe now, ages of
consent are as low as 13. In Italy it is currently 14 or 13, depending
on age-closeness.
Shiral
If I only went to see operas that were by Politically Correct
composers on Approved Topics I suspect I'd find very slim pickings.
And I'd probably find the resulting opera a complete bore. Music and
politics are an uneasy arranged marriage, at best. Most of the opera
composers I like were born well before 1900. A few were born before
1800. Very few of their attitudes and world views, I suspect, would
measure up all that well by 21st century standards.
Political Correctness is one of those phenomenons that can easily be
taken to ridiculous extremes. I refuse to give up my favorite operas
on account of political rectitude. Mostly for the same reason that I
refuse to give up operas because the characters IN them don't behave
in honorable or intelligent ways.
Melissa
J.Venning
news:1171478294.1...@v45g2000cwv.googlegroups.com...
>
> If I only went to see operas that were by Politically Correct
> composers on Approved Topics I suspect I'd find very slim pickings.
>
Hmmm ... I didn't know Slim Pickins did opera
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slim_Pickens) :-)
J.
Shiral
> "Shiral" <shira...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
Little known fact. =o) LOTS of people don't know that, including
Slim.
Melissa
samu...@comcast.net
degree. And some of the worst racists in this country are people such
as Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton who promote a racial agenda of
favoritism for blacks by charging others with being racist.
Liberals, who pose as opponents of racism, base their ideas of race
quotas, racial preferences, and "affirmative action" on the implied
assumption that blacks and other under-achieving groups are inherently
inferior and can never succeed without government favors. They see
the beneficiaries of government-enforced favors and privileges as
passive clay unable to make their own choices and make their own way
when surrounded by omnipotent, malicious whites. These politically
correct racists ignore the fact that bad values and bad choices, not
discrimination, are the main causes of inequality. Back to Butterfly
for a minute, Japanese men have been and still are tremendous
racists and chauvinists. Surely Cio-Cio San was unlikely to have
found true romantic happiness in a traditional Japanese marriage of
her day. And her suicide resulted from the perverted values of her
own Japanese culture.
Samurai
ML/NJ
> By that reckoning, Mozart was sexist and racist too. Look at the
> Magic Flute - lots of sexist comments about stupid women and their
> "Weibersinn" - not to mention all the racist stuff with poor
> Monostatos complaining that nobody loves him because black people are
> ugly and white is beautiful.
>
Fortunately they sing it in German, and the people who care about all
the PC nonsense mostly only understand English; and just barely (e.g.
consider 'niggardly").
ML/NJ
HE Elsom
> Some busibody from the race relations industry has made a sensational
> discovery: Puccini is racist.
The full article appeared in the Guardian (http://music.guardian.co.uk/
classical/operalivereviews/story/0,,2011840,00.html or http://tinyurl.com/2nnhzl).
The argument is not based purely on the views that Pinkerton
expresses. Indeed, it's not a new argument, but places Butterfly
uncontroversially in the context of latter-day Orientialism.
Hans Christian Hoff
> "
>>>
>> Or Cosi fan tutte. You cannot get more sexist than this. I'm surprised
>> no feminist has asked for a Mozart ban.
>>
But quite a few (among them Beethoven) found it immoral, and then
probably on rather equalgrounds (but the term "sexist" was not coined
then). Wiser views seem to have prevailed, though.
Regards
Hans
Hans Christian Hoff
But what Puccini (or Belasco or whoever) does is of a descriptive
nature. They portray Pinkerton as harbouring the racist attitudes he
undoubtedly harbours and show him acting accordingly, but that cannot
conceivably be any reason for describing Puccini (or Belasco or whoever)
as racist.
Regards
Hans
alcindoro
<
I think they are now called "Obligatory Encore Selections".
alcindoro
The good Professor doesn't mention that in his revision of the 1904
version, Puccini removed some of Pinkerton's most offensive comments
about the physical appearance of Suzuki and the other servants. The
Rosekrans/Vox recording of the three versions of MB is not a great
performance but it's valuable for the booklet, which contains much
information about the various versions. It also contains the original
Belasco play, including some deleted scenes -- extremely interesting
but mind-numbing in it's effort to reproduce
Japanese "Pidgin-English".
LT
> "Stelucia" <Stelu...@altavista.net> wrote in message
>
> news:1171452952....@l53g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...> Some busibody from the race relations industry has made a sensational
> > discovery: Puccini is racist.
> > Read this:
>
> Oh, for God's sake ! What next? Are they going to ban the opera because
> there are hints to paedophilia (Butterfly was supposed to be only 15 years
> old) ?
> J.
On that, it'd be best to check with Stinkie Bollmann and its
SS-'Adoptee'. They're *fascinated with the topic.
LT
*Or is that 'vaccinated'?
LT
> "Mrs T xx" <mrs.ter...@btinternet.com> wrote in messagenews:1171458209.7...@m58g2000cwm.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>
>
>
> > On 14 Feb, 12:43, "J.Venning" <DanishRo...@Opera.retired> wrote:
> >> "Stelucia" <Stelu...@altavista.net> wrote in message
>
> >>news:1171452952....@l53g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...> Some
> >> busibody from the race relations industry has made a sensational
> >> > discovery: Puccini is racist.
> >> > Read this:
> >> >http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/02/14/noper...
>
> >> Oh, for God's sake ! What next? Are they going to ban the opera
> >> because
> >> there are hints to paedophilia (Butterfly was supposed to be only 15
> >> years
> >> old) ?
> >> J.
>
> > Yes, most of the 18th and 19th century operas contain things that are
> > very un-PC by today's standards but you can't exactly start banning
> > them all because of it
>
> > By that reckoning, Mozart was sexist and racist too. Look at the
> > Magic Flute - lots of sexist comments about stupid women and their
> > "Weibersinn" - not to mention all the racist stuff with poor
> > Monostatos complaining that nobody loves him because black people are
> > ugly and white is beautiful.
>
> > Mrs T xx
>
> Yes I never why
Eh?
>producers think they have to correct all that "unpleasant"
> Monostatos business-surely the history of blackness or darkness or night, as
> symbolic representations of evil and mystery need not be traced or
> explained.
Especially when readers are as tremendously clever as:
>Richard Hide quoted text -
LSQT
(Leonard Show Quoted Text)
LT
Yes, he was slated to sing the aria (Campfire Scene) 'They jest don'
make bean casseroles like they use'ta!", in his rich baritonal
Southern-Fried drawl; alas, at the last minute, Mel Brooks decided
against it, feeling that the audience wouldn't be 'cultered-up'
enough to fully appreciate it!
LT
Niels U. Kristiansen
> Whoa ! Take a look at Lohengrin - all the troubles stemmed from Elsa and Ortrud.
Hi John!
In the Konwitschny Lohengrin in Copenhagen these days Elsa is still a
(10-13 yo) scoolchild when Lohengrin tries to seduce her.
Niels
J.Venning
message news:45D41C...@mail1.stofanet.dk...
>> Whoa ! Take a look at Lohengrin - all the troubles stemmed from Elsa
>> and Ortrud.
> (10-13 yo) scoolchild when Lohengrin tries to seduce her.
> Niels
>
hear Ann or Inga? The latter should not have been chosen for the role;
anyway, my ex-colleagues had a good time moving tables and throwing paper
planes at one another.
J.
J.Venning
news:1171526515.3...@a75g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
> make bean casseroles like they use'ta!", in his rich baritonal
> Southern-Fried drawl; alas, at the last minute, Mel Brooks decided
> against it, feeling that the audience wouldn't be 'cultered-up'
> enough to fully appreciate it!
> LT
>
J.
leonora
> "Stelucia" <Stelu...@altavista.net> wrote in message
>
> news:1171452952....@l53g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...> Some busibody from the race relations industry has made a sensational
> > discovery: Puccini is racist.
> > Read this:
> >http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/02/14/noper...
>
> Oh, for God's sake ! What next? Are they going to ban the opera because
> there are hints to paedophilia (Butterfly was supposed to be only 15 years
> old) ?
> J.
The play itself was certainly 'about' colonialism and exploitation -
but is anyone suggesting that Pinkerton is the HERO???? Surely, he is
the VILLAIN, isn't this the POINT?
I'm familiar with Parker's scholarship, BTW, and I would advise people
not to discount the possibility that he's being ironic...I mean, are
people really naive enough to believe that either Belasco or Puccini
meant to depict Pinkerton WITH APPROVAL? their sympathies are with the
betrayed Butterfly, Pinkerton is obviously a cad!!!
Leonora
leonora
> On 14 Feb, 12:43, "J.Venning" <DanishRo...@Opera.retired> wrote:
>
> > "Stelucia" <Stelu...@altavista.net> wrote in message
>
> >news:1171452952....@l53g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...> Some busibody from the race relations industry has made a sensational
> > > discovery: Puccini is racist.
> > > Read this:
> > >http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/02/14/noper...
>
> > Oh, for God's sake ! What next? Are they going to ban the opera because
> > there are hints to paedophilia (Butterfly was supposed to be only 15 years
> > old) ?
> > J.
>
> very un-PC by today's standards but you can't exactly start banning
> them all because of it
>
> By that reckoning, Mozart was sexist and racist too. Look at the
> Magic Flute - lots of sexist comments about stupid women and their
> "Weibersinn" - not to mention all the racist stuff with poor
> Monostatos complaining that nobody loves him because black people are
> ugly and white is beautiful.
>
> Mrs T xx
What is interesting about this, actually is that AT FIRST Monostatos
is not presented negatively...you remember, when he and Papageno first
encounter each other, they both run away, thinking the other is the
devil incarnate - then Papageno reflects - there are black birds in
the world, why not also black people?!
it doesn't stay on that level, unfortunately for our sensibilities
today.
Leonora
leonora
> Stelucia wrote:
> > Some busibody from the race relations industry has made a sensational
> > discovery: Puccini is racist.
>
> "Prof Parker said that the clearly racist sentiments of Pinkerton, who
> derides the Butterfly's relatives and their religious sentiments, need
> to be exposed, or distanced, in any modern production."
Well, as I said, I think that Prof. Parker may have had his tongue in
his cheek - Pinkerton exposes his racist sentiments as soon as he
opens his mouth ANYWAY, so I don't see the problem...
Why do I think he just might be trying to be funny? Because in one of
his Verdi books a few years ago, he proposed an alternative ending to
DON CARLOS - namely, that '[the bullet meant for Posa kills Carlos
instead, and Posa and Elisabeth, who have been secretly in love with
each other all along, escape to Brussels, where they are instrumental
in bringing about freedom for Flanders. There is a statue of them in
the Grande Place to this day'.
(Ah, so THAT's what I thought I saw during the beer festival last time
I was in Brussels.....)
Leonora
EvelynVogtGamble(Divamanque)
alcindoro wrote:
> >What is now Negro Spirituals called in America anyway? Anyone knows?
> <
>
> I think they are now called "Obligatory Encore Selections".
Only if the singer happens to be black!
La Donna Mobile
> "Stelucia" <Stel...@altavista.net> wrote in message
> news:1171452952....@l53g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
>>discovery: Puccini is racist.
>>Read this:
>>
>
> Oh, for God's sake ! What next? Are they going to ban the opera because
> there are hints to paedophilia (Butterfly was supposed to be only 15 years
> old) ?
> J.
>
>
But why is that paedophilia?
alcindoro
I was going to say something to that effect, but I didn't want to
appear racist!
And haven't you seen Mme. Vera-Galoupe-Borschk do "Ride On, King
Jesus"! ;-)
J.Venning
news:yqGdnZ7VhLRHZ0nY...@bt.com...
>> Oh, for God's sake ! What next? Are they going to ban the opera
>> because there are hints to paedophilia (Butterfly was supposed to be only
>> 15 years old) ?
>
>
written, and what is it there today?
J.
LT
> "LT" <lnrd_tl...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
Enough to noticed their 'rhythmic' potentials, setting them to
special, atonal 'themes' - unfortunately (or quite fortunately)
rejected by Mr. Brooks, just prior to filming!
> J.
La Donna Mobile
despite the fact that it would be a mistaken understanding of
'paedophilia*' and betraying an ignorance of the arbitrary nature of
'age of consent' laws and their differences worldwide. But I don't think
that Pinkerton and his type were like the sex-tourists-to-Thailand as
much as wanting the young, nubile etc woman, be it 15, 21, 25 which is
regarded as 'normal' behaviour to this day.
* which is sexual attraction to/abuse of pre-pubescent children and IMO
is often trivialised by misinterpretation.
EvelynVogtGamble(Divamanque)
La Donna Mobile wrote:
Dunno about "paedophilia", but in the U.S. if one partner is
legally a "minor", any sexual intercourse is looked upon as
"statutory rape" - "consent" has nothing to do with it!
(Although unless one of the participants - or his/her parent
- complains to the law, it's ignored, unless he/she is
REALLY a child.)
EvelynVogtGamble(Divamanque)
alcindoro wrote:
On his new Christmas CD, which contains a number of
selections in English, Jose van Dam does a very creditable
performance of Jester Hairston's "Mary Had a Baby"!
For those who care, the disk is titled "Christmas with Jose
van Dam", and apparently has not been released yet. I have
friends who would like to buy it, none of the usual sources
has it, and an e-mail to Sony/BMG (the producer shown on the
label) received no response. (He must have sent out advance
copies as holiday gifts, and I was one of the lucky recipients.)
Mark D Lew
<Danis...@Opera.retired> wrote:
> What is the age of consent in the United States when the opera was
> written, and what is it there today?
It's a matter of state law, not federal. Most states set it at 16, 17,
or 18. A few go as low as 14 with caveats.
In many states the validity of the law is in question, though I'm not
aware of any that have really tested it.
Statutory rape laws, it should be noted, exist not to protect children
but to protect parents' rights *over* children. By definition, in any
case of statutory rape the "victim" was willing. If she were not, then
it wouldn't be statutory rape at all, it would simply be rape.
Statutory rape only comes into play when the girl does want to have sex
with the guy, but her Dad (or whoever) wants to have the guy locked up.
mdl
Mark D Lew
<Rich...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> What is interesting is the genesis of the story - it's well known that
> Puccini saw it on the stage in English and immediately knew he wanted to
> acquire the rights, despite the fact that he understood no English. The play
> was credited to David Belasco, an extremely interesting guy, although I
> think there is some controversy or lack of clarity about how much of MB he
> actually wrote, and how much he just hired someone to do the writing for
> him - Belasco was best known as an impressario. SJT and I have had some
> discussions about this (I've always had the position that Belasco didn't
> write much or any of this, but basically produced it and took credit for the
> writing; SJT says there's some evidence that Belasco was the real writer).
> My question is, "How much of the alleged factual basis of the story has been
> known previously?" Is this really verified information, is it information
> that's been around for a while, or what?
Did I miss this conversation? I used to know something about
Butterfly's origins, but now I've forgotten. Belasco's play is based
on John Luther Long's story (though there are suggestions he draws
ideas from other sources as well). Someone, I think it was Long, but
maybe I'm misremembering, had a female relative who had spent time in
the one mission (Dutch? Portuguese?) that was allowed to remain in
Nagasaki. From that it was conjectured that perhaps he got the story
from her.
I think this is in Carner. I'm sure I read it somewhere.
mdl
Silverfin
> Statutory rape laws, it should be noted, exist not to protect children
> but to protect parents' rights *over* children. By definition, in any
> case of statutory rape the "victim" was willing. If she were not, then
> it wouldn't be statutory rape at all, it would simply be rape.
>
> Statutory rape only comes into play when the girl does want to have sex
> with the guy, but her Dad (or whoever) wants to have the guy locked up.
>
Or boy, presumably?