Is Caruso overrated?
arb...@hotmail.com
I sometimes have my doubts about him. Was he all he's cracked
up to be?
Admittedly, sometimes I hear something and I'm overwhelmed. But
that applies
to all the great singers. I have to admit that sometimes the
great man bores me
just a little. There are not many renditions of arias by him
that are the last word
and would have to come to the desert Island. The unquestioned
supremacy of
Caruso in tenor history is a sacred cow that should be
questioned. What do
others think? Apart from Ed. I know what he thinks before he
thinks it.
Ben
madabouttraviata
with 100% objectivity. Because we didn't hear him "live" and his
recordings are so "low-class" (I mean if you take technical equipment
of that time). He was without any doubt TOP TOP SINGER- but if he was
an incomparable giant, I'm not quite sure. Every generation has (that's
my opinion) its own "Caruso"s!!!! (As every generation has its
"Callas"s for example...).
madabouttraviata
Richard Loeb
news:1136381207.2...@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
The greatest tenor and he never made a boring record. Richard
madabouttraviata
that he was GREAT singer - but I don't like using term "the
greatest"... It's too much definitive.
madabouttraviata
Jon E. Szostak, Sr.
recordings and know the power and quality of the sound. EVEN with the poor
acoustical recording techniques. There were those who heard Caruso
live...and compared him with Bjoerling as silver to Caruso's gold...vocally
speaking. I forget his name...something like Max de Schaugnessy...I really
don't know the proper spelling...among others. I hope one of our East coast
denizens will know the answer to this.
Point being...we know pretty well what Bjoerling sounded like live...and
here is yet another respected source making a direct comparison. Certainly
a basis of some worth.
Jon E. Szostak, Sr.
"Richard Loeb" <loe...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:hs6dnY2rwP7...@giganews.com...
premie...@aol.com
Ed
premie...@aol.com
Ed
------------------------------------
I mean no!!! Why did I type yes when I meant no??? Caruso in NOT
OVERRATED, IMO.
Ed
Larry Friedman
that Caruso was a great singer. He was entitled to his opinion - just as
those of us who beg to differ are entitled to ours.
-Larry Friedman
"Jon E. Szostak, Sr." <jszostaks...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:htKdnf4sGq0GSCbe...@comcast.com...
grndp...@aol.com
If you enjoy Caruso's recordings beyond those of any other tenor, then
for you he is not overrated.
There are many instances where I prefer Carlo Bergonzi or Giuseppe di
Stefano or Placido Domingo or Jussi Bjoerling.
Ratings are fine for sports. Recall "Willie, Mickey and the Duke."
My favorite Caruso arias are "O Paradiso", "Ombra mai fu", and "Over
There."
==G/P Dave
alci...@aol.com
He was a great singer who made a lot of money and owned his Rolls.
J K Harnedy
<arb...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1136378964....@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
>
> I sometimes have my doubts about him. Was he all he's cracked
> up to be?
He's about as overrated as breathing and just as unnecessary a luxury.
John Harnedy
wkas...@comcast.net
arb...@hotmail.com wrote:
>The unquestioned supremacy of Caruso in tenor history is a sacred cow that should be >questioned.
While one might question the quality of the recordings, his importance
to opera can't really be overstated. Before him, the gramophone was
something of a curiosity. He almost singlehandedly turned it into a
household item.
As for the quality of his singing, well, it depends on who's doing the
rating, I suppose. I don't necessarily love everything he recorded,
but it's a pretty remarkable discography with a very, very high
standard, particularly when one considers the obstacles to recording in
those days. On the other hand, there are those who worship every note
he ever recorded, which does no service, either to them, or to Caruso.
Bill
david...@aol.com
By whom?
-david gable
LJO
Overrated by whom?
Jon E. Szostak, Sr.
read what he had to say. But I always feel inadequate when I'm not sure of
the proper spelling of a person's name...and I don't wish to insult anyone
or their memory.
Jon E. Szostak, Sr.
"Larry Friedman" <dis...@adelphia.net> wrote in message
news:Xc-dnSxFdq8Heibe...@adelphia.com...
Jon E. Szostak, Sr.
magnificent as did Caruso given the state-of-the-art for recordings.
I have to add the duet 'Si pel Ciel' from 'Otello' with Tito Ruffo...the
power of the performance in this recording is simply amazing.
Jon E. Szostak, Sr.
<grndp...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1136388956....@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
Jon E. Szostak, Sr.
http://www.angelfire.com/nc3/talkingmachines/caruso.html
Jon E. Szostak, Sr.
"madabouttraviata" <pa...@iol.cz> wrote in message
news:1136381207.2...@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
WWW.Handelmania.com
other terms..like "GODLIKE."
Every "vocal situation" in all his recordings..is extraordinary..Like
Bergonzi (unlike Pavarotti)..he ios INTERESTING!!!!!...No one vowel is
the same in every single aria..in the sense that he brings heart and
soul and a fabulouas voice..and feeling..and LORD..I could go on.
Just play "Mia picirella" or play "Musette..." from the Leoncavallo
Boheme...or...ANYTHING....
The man was ALONE..He stood ALONE...and not one singer since could
touch him for the combination of vocal quality and heart and anything
else you could want.
I can listen over and over and over to this man..and NOTHING thrills
me more..and nothing brings the tears.
Just listen to "Over There,"in that phonetic English..."That the boys
are ComIIIIING"..Lord..what a tone....and that last session when he did
the "Di ch'io ritorni" from L'Africaine..sounds sometimes like a
basso!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
NO WORDS can describe him..as someone said:
Ponselle,Caruso,Ruffo...and then AFTER THEM..come the singers.
Closest to caruso in my view is Richard Tucker..for the glory of the
tone..the ability to sing lyric and dramatic music with equally
brilliance....Had Tucker "calmed down' he might have been even closer
to what Caruso was...
Caruso was as overrated as Shakespeare,Michelangelo,
Jolson, Zinka Milanov (well.I had to throw her in there)..Charlie
wkas...@comcast.net
Stephen Worth
the Caruso records that bore you. I guarantee that when you hear
them the way they were intended to be heard, you won't be bored.
See ya
Steve
--
Rare 78 rpm recordings on CD! http://www.vintageip.com/records/
Building a museum and archive of animation! http://www.animationarchive.org/
The Quest for the BEST HOTDOG in Los Angeles! http://www.hotdogspot.com/
Rediscovering great stuff from the past! http://www.vintagetips.com/
LJO
> the same in every single aria..in the sense that he brings heart and
> soul and a fabulouas voice..and feeling.>
He wouldn't be much of a singer if he didn't sing a vowel the same way
twice.
< and LORD..I could go on. >
That won't be necessary.
Lord Olsen
arb...@hotmail.com
Comparing Caruso to Shakespeare
and Michaelangelo is childish. And that hideous jingoistic
Over There crap is a blight
on music.
donpaolo
the same rudimentary state-of-the-art technology!
Is he MY fav? No, not really, but I hold him in the highest regard for what
he was as a person, an artist, & what he did to foster the(then) fledgling
recording industry.
I had relatives & friends of my relatives who saw him live many, many times.
These people would regale us "kids" with stories of his stage presence,
acting abilities & outpouring of intensity & emotion. The parallel with
Richard Tucker in these aspects is 100% valid, according to what I have
heard & learned from the people I have mentioned. I personally do not see a
basis for comparison with Bjoerling - voices are completely different (I do
like JB, BTW).
My "goose bump" recordings of Caruso's, among others, remain the "Rachel,
quand du seigneur" , "magiche tone", & his part in the trio from I Lombardi.
Good (ON topic) thread, Ben!
DonPaolo
"Jon E. Szostak, Sr." <jszostaks...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:qZmdnZdBRra0sCHe...@comcast.com...
Stephen Worth
Thanks
Steve
In article <1136412824.8...@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>,
<arb...@hotmail.com> wrote:
--
LJO
Aires (or was it Rio?). He would never stop raving about Caruso. I would
have to remind him not to rave until the lesson was finished. Mrs Little
Jimmy and I had him to dinner one night. Would you think he would brag a bit
to Mrs LJO about what a splendid tenor I was becoming? Nooooo. All he could
talk about was Caruso la, Caruso qua, Caruso su, Caruso giu etc . . you know
the rest.
LJO
"donpaolo" <donp...@erols.com> wrote in message
news:7JudnTreAKuG1CHe...@rcn.net...
premie...@aol.com
opinion
that Caruso was a great singer. He was entitled to his opinion - just
as
those of us who beg to differ are entitled to ours.
-Larry Friedman
I knew Max a bit. He was THE leading Philadelphia music review person
for countless years, and I believe his column may have been syndicated
in other papers, too. He did hear Caruso a number of times, and spoke
of it whenever asked. He was a frequent guest on the Met bdcst.
intermission features for many years, at least until the '60's, when he
was 90 plus. I met him a number of times at the Academy of Music in
Philadelphia, and he was a very pleasant man, and very knowledgeable.
He heard every important singer from perhaps 1915 onward, and had a
wonderful memory. It was a thrill to know him.
Ed
premie...@aol.com
thinks it.
Ben
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Really? Very interesting, Ben, and thanks for the compliment. Guess
what I am thinking about you right this moment! Right you are!!
Ed
donpaolo
wind-up console (especially Caruso & Ruffo recordings). You have NO IDEA
what tremendous power that Ruffo summoned via that medium - I will never
forget it, it was almost frightening!!!
DonPaolo
"Stephen Worth" <ne...@vintageip.com> wrote in message
news:040120061317048247%ne...@vintageip.com...
donpaolo
Domingo (for a poor joke, that is)?
DonPaolo
<arb...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1136412824.8...@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
donpaolo
resist...
DonP.
"LJO" <seniorcu...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:G4Yuf.4762$M%4.1...@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net...
capa0...@aol.com
++++++++++++++++++++++====
Well, he apparently didn't 'own any roles', (at least he has not been
endowed with any in this thread), so clearly the man is over-rated.
Big time.
After all, if you don't 'own a role' or two you might as well hang it
up.
He coulda stood in bed.
Pat, who never expects to hear an Eleazar like Caruso
drak...@aol.com
instrument, fabulous technique, tremendous expressiveness and
Italianita. His recordings are a priceless treasure of Western
Civilization. Other than that, whatever.
Jake Drake
REG
is separate from getting him) is somewhat similar to Scott's in The Record
of Singing, where he talks about the sea change Caruso inspired in tenors -
the emphasis on power, a ringing tone, and a freely produced top. That's
kind of Scott's take on his importance, and in that way I appreciate him,
but I am not sure that there are many recordings of his where I think, "No
one can do it better".
My loss, undoubtedly.
<wkas...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:1136395973....@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
Jon E. Szostak, Sr.
'Dick Johnson'. I'm sure there were others...can't think of them off hand.
Does 'originate' count as highly as 'own' I wonder?
Jon E. Szostak, Sr.
<capa0...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1136422153.4...@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
Ken Meltzer
Jon E. Szostak, Sr. wrote:
> It may be added that Caruso originated a number of operatic roles...such as
> 'Dick Johnson'. I'm sure there were others...can't think of them off hand.
>
> Does 'originate' count as highly as 'own' I wonder?
>
> Jon E. Szostak, Sr.
Hi Jon:
Caruso also was the first Loris in Fedora and Federico in L'arlesiana.
I believe there were some others as well.
Best,
Ken
MARK MCLEOD
Dick.
And I can't help but wonder how his Calaf would have sounded.
That would have been something.
I can recommend the biography of Caruso by his son, Enrico Jnr.Gives some
real insight into the man himself.
Mc
"Ken Meltzer" <comm...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1136464220....@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
WWW.Handelmania.com
> By whom?
By Charlie, apparently.
Bill
Reply
and i thought 2006 would bring us a NEW BILL...
I have read this several times over the yrs..not sure who said it...but
it was neither you nor me..someone much wiser....CH
WWW.Handelmania.com
WWW.Handelmania.com
that what we hear on records is only a THIRD of what he was in
person......I believe it... ch
WWW.Handelmania.com
great answers..Thanks,jerk...you brought us normal people
together..keep it up.
Next..Please write us about how Birgit Nilsson was inaudible...CH
Ken Meltzer
MARK MCLEOD wrote:
> He sadly, never recorded any of Fanciulla even though he created the role of
> Dick.
> And I can't help but wonder how his Calaf would have sounded.
> That would have been something.
That's interesting to speculate on, Mark. Had Caruso lived to sing the
premiere of Turandot, he would have been 53. It's pretty clear that by
the end of his life, Caruso's voice was getting darker, and the
production was more effortful, even if the results were still
impressive. A Calaf at this stage of Caruso's (fictionally extended)
life might not have been all we could dream of.
Best,
Ken
donpaolo
DonPaolo
"REG" <Rich...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:8P_uf.36925$i1.1...@news-wrt-01.rdc-nyc.rr.com...
donpaolo
in-spite-ful bunch of nonsense, Finley.
DonPaolo
<capa0...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1136422153.4...@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
Ken Meltzer
donpaolo wrote:
> Not even his "nessun dorma"?
Some have said Caruso would have owned the role of Calaf. He never
owned up to it, though.
Best,
Ken
wkas...@comcast.net
WWW.Handelmania.com wrote:
> I have read this several times over the yrs..not sure who said it...
You mean that silly thing about Caruso, Ruffo, and Ponselle? I believe
that it was
Tullio Serafin.
Bill
F R
yes it is a great thread charlie so shhhh!!!
frank
grndp...@aol.com
Jan 4, 6:49 pm show options
Newsgroups: rec.music.opera
From: capa081...@aol.com - Find messages by this author
Date: 4 Jan 2006 16:49:13 -0800
Local: Wed, Jan 4 2006 6:49 pm
Subject: Re: Is Caruso overrated?
Reply | Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show
original | Report Abuse
~~~~~~~~~~~
My Goodness, Pat, evidently you haven't heard any of the "complete"
(highly cut) sung gloriously by Richard Tucker (who was going to sing
this role at the Met under the direction of Leonard Bernstein).
An interesting cd was once cobbled together. I think it was called
"Caruso sings Faust." He sounds pretty good here, too. (But I prefer
Domingo and -- for "Salut demeure" nobody, imho, holds a candle to Di
Stefano [perhaps the greatest performance he ever gave of any aria]).
==G/P Dave
WWW.Handelmania.com
that it was
Tullio Serafin.
It cannot be silly if you listen to those voices..unless you think you
know more than Serafin,myself, and a million others....CH
WWW.Handelmania.com
the years i saw Richard Tucker live..knowing that there was another
tenor who could produce the most glorious lirico-dramatico tone
imaginable...i take Tucker,my favorite tenor of those I saw live, and
multiply by......3...4..?? and that was ENRICO!!!!!! (with either a
better toupee or none at all)..CH
REG
"donpaolo" <donp...@erols.com> wrote in message
news:q4ydnRBXr8B...@rcn.net...
LJO
"WWW.Handelmania.com" <Plac...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1136501962....@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Narrowing the focus, he certainly knows more than you and millions of others
do. As to Serafin, I cannot say.
david...@aol.com
Charlie,
You vastly underrate the musicality and sense of phrasing that
Pavarotti exhibited. You seem to find him guilty of not having a voice
of approximately the same size as Caruso and Tucker. I could not care
less. His sound was gorgeous, his production was pure, and his
phrasing was sensitive beyond all imagining.
>Ponselle,Caruso,Ruffo...and then AFTER THEM..come the singers.
I respect Serafin, and I can appreciate why he named the singers he
named. Within the scope of the context of his anwer, I would probably
even agree with him. But you're taking the remarks of a brilliant
conductor made in the context of a career spent conducting Italian
opera and turning his judgement into a universal principle binding for
all repertories until the end of time. There are whole repertories
spanning centuries left out of the equation here. Not to mention the
future.
-david gable
REG
about the Pav's 'natural musicianship' and artistry. It was not, I don't
think, particularly analytic - with Bergonzi you always felt you were
getting a lesson (in the good sense, I loved him), and you can't say that
about the Pav, but he was far better, and deserved better, than his hype,
and I thought that for decades the voice itself was remarkably in its
combination of lyricism and penetrating power.
I think he could often be perfunctory, and in the second half of his career,
nerves and his awareness that the magic was slowly draining out of the glass
took their toll, but at his best he provides great pleasure, if not, I
think, great insight.
<david...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1136525212.6...@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
WWW.Handelmania.com
have been many great tenors...Pavarotti is one of them..only
one.....Caruso( and Gigli) were GODS.....
I hate when people put dumb words in my mouth.....His message is very
strange....
WWW.Handelmania.com
frank
You are right..but one or two people did try to get nasty....but
essentially this thread is what RMO should be all about..Thanks CH
WWW.Handelmania.com
others
do. As to Serafin, I cannot say.
Why don't you give it up..you open your mouth every time and make a
fool of yourself..CH
WWW.Handelmania.com
But you're taking the remarks of a brilliant
conductor made in the context of a career spent conducting Italian
opera and turning his judgement into a universal principle binding for
all repertories until the end of time. There are whole repertories
spanning centuries left out of the equation here. Not
What are you talking about??I have not said anything about
Pavarotti..We are talking about Caruso....What are you talking
about??is someone impersonating me????
You belong with the other snobs...making upb all kinds of things that i
never said..CH
This is strange......
Of course,pav has a gorgeous voice..who said not??? CH
aest...@hotmail.com
their recordings, the following Yahoo Group may be of interest:
WWW.Handelmania.com
Pinkerton....at the end of her entrance.she says,
B.F.Peeeenkerton...JEW!!!!! CH
luiz silva
REG escreveu:
Lookingglass
REG
"luiz silva" <lcm...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1136517476....@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
Ken Meltzer
<<One of my friends used to call his singing, "NEAT!!!" Well, I use
other terms..like "GODLIKE."
Every "vocal situation" in all his recordings..is extraordinary..Like
Bergonzi (unlike Pavarotti)..he ios INTERESTING!!!!!...>>
Ken Meltzer
<<One of my friends used to call his singing, "NEAT!!!" Well, I use
LJO
"> Mme.Butterfly always knew when Peerce,Tucker, or Shicoff sang
> Pinkerton....at the end of her entrance.she says,
> B.F.Peeeenkerton...JEW!!!!! CH
>
Didn't Tebaldi once record that as "F. B. Pinkerton" ?
LJO
> Pavarotti..We are talking about Caruso....What are you talking
> about??is someone impersonating me????
>
> You belong with the other snobs...making upb all kinds of things that i
> never said..CH
>
> This is strange......
>
Yes you did, Opera Clown. You said this:
< Like Bergonzi (unlike Pavarotti)..he ios INTERESTING!!!!!>
You appear to be saying that Pavarotti is not interesting, true?
Just answer the question.
Ken Meltzer
LJO wrote:
>You said this:
>
> < Like Bergonzi (unlike Pavarotti)..he ios INTERESTING!!!!!>
>
> You appear to be saying that Pavarotti is not interesting, true?
Or, that he's not an island in Greece.
Ken
wkas...@comcast.net
WWW.Handelmania.com wrote:
> I hate when people put dumb words in my mouth.....
Of course - it's so unnecessary...
Bill
WWW.Handelmania.com
Jan 6, 9:31 am show options
Newsgroups: rec.music.opera
From: wkasi...@comcast.net - Find messages by this author
Date: 6 Jan 2006 06:31:08 -0800
Local: Fri, Jan 6 2006 9:31 am
Subject: Re: Is Caruso overrated?
Reply | Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show
original | Report Abuse
WWW.Handelmania.com wrote:
Bill
Reply
This bored would not be what it is..without the usual dumb sayings of
our resident snob...Bill Kasimer..I think he has not been getting any
lately.....
Jon E. Szostak, Sr.
business!
Jon E. Szostak, Sr.
<grndp...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1136497615.8...@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
J.Venning
news:PaCdnXJs0-o...@comcast.com...
> Dave: Nah...that honor belongs to Gedda...the best French tenor in the
> business!
> Jon E. Szostak, Sr.
Gedda is French? Wow, was I misinformed!
J.
RonTheGreatTenor
madabouttraviata wrote:
> I think that Caruso is a symbol of singing. We couldn't measure him
> with 100% objectivity. Because we didn't hear him "live" and his
> recordings are so "low-class" (I mean if you take technical equipment
> of that time).
I have a suggestion for an experiment that could be performed, on a
joint basis,
by the departments of music and technology, of a major university.
Record some
of the great singers of today using devices of the same "poor quality
audio
technology" of Caruso's day. Then compare. The comparisons could be
done on
a blind audition style basis, with the listener/grader not knowing the
identity of
the singer (who has been recorded using the poor quality techniques).
>He was without any doubt TOP TOP SINGER- but if he was
> an incomparable giant, I'm not quite sure. Every generation has (that's
> my opinion) its own "Caruso"s!!!! (As every generation has its
> "Callas"s for example...).
>
The Pav King in his prime (along with his Three Tenor mates) and the
late
great Richard Tucker are my favorites.
RHB
premie...@aol.com
joint basis,
by the departments of music and technology, of a major university.
Record some
of the great singers of today using devices of the same "poor quality
audio
technology" of Caruso's day. Then compare. The comparisons could be
done on
a blind audition style basis, with the listener/grader not knowing the
identity of
the singer (who has been recorded using the poor quality techniques).
>He was without any doubt TOP TOP SINGER- but if he was
> an incomparable giant, I'm not quite sure. Every generation has (that's
> my opinion) its own "Caruso"s!!!! (As every generation has its
> "Callas"s for example...).
The Pav King in his prime (along with his Three Tenor mates) and the
late
great Richard Tucker are my favorites.
RHB
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I certainly agree with your about Tucker!!
As for the experiment you suggested, a similar experiment was performed
and played on a Met intermission feature a number of years ago.
Birgit Nilsson secretly recorded a selection on the old acoustic horn.
NOBODY could identify her voice when it was played back. If I didn't
know it was her, I wouldn't have guessed, either. I do think the horn
was kinder to tenor voices than to soprano voices, with their much
higher overtones,etc., but this actually did happen.
It still doesn't tell us how Caruso sounded in person, but it was most
probably different than his acoustic recordings, great as those are. It
was, IMHO, much greater than his recordings. In a theater his voice had
time to expand, and all the colors and overtones, in addition to the
sheer size, must have made a tremendous impression.
Ed
Jon E. Szostak, Sr.
Jon E. Szostak, Sr.
(aka 'il Riccardo grande')
"J.Venning" <Danis...@Opera.retired> wrote in message
news:43bee319$0$38623$edfa...@dread12.news.tele.dk...
WWW.Handelmania.com
You appear to be saying that Pavarotti is not interesting, true?
Just answer the question.
Even though I do not answer questions posed by idiots..I do feel pav
"phones it in'....Great voice..not great artist.....CH
david...@aol.com
>at his best he provides great pleasure, if not, I think, great insight.
I know what REG means by this and by his comparison of Pavarotti to
Bergonzi in which he views Bergonzi as the greater "thinker." But I
would say that precisely one of the most instructive things about
listening to Pavarotti is that he does phrase "instinctively" in a very
beautiful, musical, and expressive way without "reflection" in quite
the Bergonzi sense. (No singer is or could be entirely unreflective
while singing. Singers are paying attention to what they're doing
while they're doing it.) Listening to Pavarotti at his best, we're
getting a glimpse at what the man absorbed by osmosis from a tradition
rather than through critical reflection. Nor could we get that glimpse
from just anybody. The person we get if from has to have been endowed
not only with a voice but with an ear, and he has to have been at least
as musical as Pavarotti.
Nobody will ever convince me that Pavarotti's best singing--in the
sense that I care most about, his shaping of phrases on an ongoing
basis--was the result of mere accident. There is a real musicality at
work there, and the off nights, the laziness, the decline, and the
Three Tenors circus are no counter evidence at all.
-david gable
WWW.Handelmania.com
Bergonzi (unlike Pavarotti)..he ios INTERESTING!!!!!..>>
.
YUP....But I never thought Pav did not have a great voice.....CH
Mark
REG
Pavarotti PROVIDES to listeners is insight, either insight into the
structure of the piece, as Bergonzi might, or insight into the characters.
It's not that he doesn't have some special gifts, just as you outline them
below, and it's not that he doesn't have insight into what he's doing - I am
sure you're right, but it's that in listening, I don't think he communicates
to us "insight" in either of the two senses I am refering to. I can't say
that I listen to the Pav and 'learn' something different or more complex
about the characters he portrays, or their emotions, and I can't say that in
listening I am getting the kind of 'lesson' that someone like Bergonzi might
provide. That doesn't mean, obviously, that I am not getting a lot, or not
getting a kind of glorious tradition communicated, but his singing stays
within that kind of parameters. Not a bad thing, or an easy thing,
certainly, but not particularly a complex thing.
<david...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1136571939....@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
LJO
Then you owe Mr Gable an apology.
LJO
>
>>at his best he provides great pleasure, if not, I think, great insight.
>
> I know what REG means by this and by his comparison of Pavarotti to
> Bergonzi in which he views Bergonzi as the greater "thinker." But I
> would say that precisely one of the most instructive things about
> listening to Pavarotti is that he does phrase "instinctively" in a very
> beautiful, musical, and expressive way without "reflection" in quite
> the Bergonzi sense. (No singer is or could be entirely unreflective
> while singing. Singers are paying attention to what they're doing
> while they're doing it.) Listening to Pavarotti at his best, we're
> getting a glimpse at what the man absorbed by osmosis from a tradition
> rather than through critical reflection. Nor could we get that glimpse
> from just anybody. The person we get if from has to have been endowed
> not only with a voice but with an ear, and he has to have been at least
> as musical as Pavarotti.
>
Bravo, bravo, arcibravo! Indeed, it is the ear first and then the voice.
The major portion
of the control a singer possesses over his voice rests on his ability to
imagine in its full
complexity the sound which he wishes to produce---that is, in its pitch,
vowel, duration, quality,
volume, resonance, timbre, inflection, color, etc. We do not possess the
faculty of compelling
our vocal folds to flex in any precise manner without first having conceived
an image of the sound
we wish to produce. This a fact of cardinal importance. It has an enormous
bearing
upon any approach toward the study of vocal technique. Most people listening
to a great singer
would say, "I wish I had that voice." You and I would say, "I wish I had
that ear." Pavarotti's ear
was miraculous, and it was that which enabled the voice. --- LJO
LJO
>I don't disagree with anything you say here, but I don't think that what
>Pavarotti PROVIDES to listeners is insight, either insight into the
>structure of the piece, as Bergonzi might, or insight into the characters.
>It's not that he doesn't have some special gifts, just as you outline them
>below, and it's not that he doesn't have insight into what he's doing - I
>am sure you're right, but it's that in listening, I don't think he
>communicates to us "insight" in either of the two senses I am refering to.
>I can't say that I listen to the Pav and 'learn' something different or
>more complex about the characters he portrays, or their emotions, and I
>can't say that in listening I am getting the kind of 'lesson' that someone
>like Bergonzi might provide. That doesn't mean, obviously, that I am not
>getting a lot, or not getting a kind of glorious tradition communicated,
>but his singing stays within that kind of parameters. Not a bad thing, or
>an easy thing, certainly, but not particularly a complex thing.
>
This distinction that you're making is a very ephemeral and personal one.
Where one listener might find "insight" another might find none, or might
not
particularly care. Great singing by a beautiful voice, especially when
driven by
a superb rhythmic sense, can present to the listener a kind of empty
canvas upon which he may paint/imagine any insight or emotion he pleases.
More
sophisticated listeners, such as yourself, may demand more. But I suspect
that
some such folks, in their zeal for analytic listening, have lost the ability
to simply
give free rein to their imaginations (excepting present company of course)
and
enjoy the experience. I've often noticed this about myself. -- LJO
Jon E. Szostak, Sr.
to still project through the orchestra at the end of the 'Liebestod' is
simply a miracle. Those last few words that are held and not punctuated or
helped for emphasis by any rhythm is amazing.
Most singers just wilt at the ending...even if they just record the bloody
aria...forget the whole opera.
When she sang...she was a force of Nature!
Jon E. Szostak, Sr.
"Mark" <Harpsic...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1136610140.8...@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
WWW.Handelmania.com
imagine ANYONE being able to produce the sounds she made.....all the
way up (Flagstad had a fabulous stereo sound but not a top).....
I never heard ANYONE who could make our colective jaws drop....for so
long...Tebaldi was close..but then th top went flat..not Birgit....
Maybe Eva Turner was in that class....CH
REG
read once that Tettrazini wrote that has always stuck with me, to the effect
that singers should never sing faster (ie, with more flexibility) than what
they can hear in their own inner ear.
I think that in a more concrete way, she must have been getting at the same
thing.
Very wel and helpfully said.
"LJO" <seniorcu...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:lJNvf.6120$M%4.4...@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net...
REG
some ways she had strengths that Nilsson didn't.
"WWW.Handelmania.com" <Plac...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1136644414....@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
Richard Loeb
"REG" <Rich...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:ezQvf.39322$i1....@news-wrt-01.rdc-nyc.rr.com...
The problem I have with Turner is that I find her an astonishingly dull
singer - sure, she blows you out of your chair with her Turandot where she
can just belt it out - but in other repertory I find little or no evocation
of mood or feelings - its all so foursquare and boring - with Nilsson there
was always an interpretive improvemnt in her work.
Richard
REG
and see what I think of her artistically - it's been a while.
"Richard Loeb" <loe...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:noadndkR8sq...@giganews.com...
LJO
> This is a very interesting comment - it kind of amplifies on something I
> read once that Tettrazini wrote that has always stuck with me, to the
> effect that singers should never sing faster (ie, with more flexibility)
> than what they can hear in their own inner ear.
>
> I think that in a more concrete way, she must have been getting at the
> same thing.
>
Well, yes. It is fundamental and paramount. As a cellist you must know that
a string player needs a much better ear than a pianist to accomplish similar
results. Notice sometimes which singers in attacking a note tend to slide up
to it, particularly on pitches above the register break. This may just be
sloppy singing, although sometimes it is done for dramatic effect. But most
of the time it is because the singer's sound image of the note is vague or
virtually non-existent. Without the sound image firmly in mind the vocal
apparatus is lost at sea, and by the time the singer arrives at the correct
pitch his musculature is already constricted. If an attack is without
freedom, i.e., constricted, freedom cannot be attained during the phrase.
And, the next attack is unlikely to be free because it is very difficult to
go immediately from a constricted condition to one of freedom. Similarly, if
you cannot imagine pitches at least as fast as you are trying to sing you
are doomed -- doomed, I say.
Richard Loeb
If you compare her work early and later (the Decca Tristan to the DGG, the
RCA Walkure to the Decca or the Aida excerpts to the later complete
recording) you'll find a real deepening of interpretation - and this from a
singer who could have gotten by on voice alone. A superb artist Richard
REG
"Richard Loeb" <loe...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:hKOdnS878pb...@giganews.com...
Richard Loeb
"REG" <Rich...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:5oTvf.39505$i1.2...@news-wrt-01.rdc-nyc.rr.com...
I wouldn't be surprised if she said that - though in the situation we are in
today regarding Wagner singers - I would be perfectly happy if we had her in
1959 vocal form and she stayed that way!!!! Richard
>
MARK MCLEOD
with what you are saying.
Pavarotti has himself said how lucky he was.
He is not saying he wasn't tremendously gifted, he is just concurring that
he had everything in the right place at the right time. He is obviously a
true libran, able to weigh up on the scales what will be successful and what
won't be.
He knows his own limitations-probably too much, otherwise he may have sung
more roles.
A great voice - a great singer maybe just.
Mcnews:O0Lvf.38975$Ed.3...@news-wrt-01.rdc-nyc.rr.com...
Steve Silverman
>I agree with you about Birgit - I may go back today and listen to some ET
>and see what I think of her artistically - it's been a while.
Didn't ET just phone everything in?
Steve Silverman
donpaolo
limitations at all. Roles such as Radames, Calaf, Canio & Chenier were all
wrong for him in that he did not do justice to the spinto requirements of
these roles. Werther, Faust, some additional Donizetti, would have better
suited him, IMO. I think he had sufficient pull with management that they
would have mounted these for him at his insistence.
Regards,
DonPaolo
"MARK MCLEOD" <tenor...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message
news:yATvf.97758$vl2....@fe2.news.blueyonder.co.uk...
Ken Meltzer
LJO wrote:
> Bravo, bravo, arcibravo! Indeed, it is the ear first and then the voice.
> The major portion
> of the control a singer possesses over his voice rests on his ability to
> imagine in its full
> complexity the sound which he wishes to produce---that is, in its pitch,
> vowel, duration, quality,
> volume, resonance, timbre, inflection, color, etc. We do not possess the
> faculty of compelling
> our vocal folds to flex in any precise manner without first having conceived
> an image of the sound
> we wish to produce. This a fact of cardinal importance. It has an enormous
> bearing
> upon any approach toward the study of vocal technique. Most people listening
> to a great singer
> would say, "I wish I had that voice." You and I would say, "I wish I had
> that ear." Pavarotti's ear
> was miraculous, and it was that which enabled the voice. --- LJO
>
Very interesting, Mr. Olsen!
Every great golfer says that before he hits a shot, he visualizes
precisely how it should go-distance, trajectory, path, spin, etc.
Unlike some other sports, golf is similar to singing in that the
participant has time (sometimes too much time) to think about what he's
about to do. Proper visualization reduces stress leads to better
execution. And the general consensus in the golf world is that one of
the greatest of them all-Jack Nicklaus-was also the best at shot
visualization.
I'm not sure about Pavarotti's "insight" or ability to "characterize".
I do know that when I want to hear one of the most exciting tenor
albums ever made, I go back to his 1968 Verdi-Donizetti recital for
London. That is glorious singing!
Best,
Ken
Jeffrey
> WWW.Handelmania.com wrote:
>
>
>>I hate when people put dumb words in my mouth.....
>
>
> Of course - it's so unnecessary...
>
> Bill
>
So true. LOL!
--
Jeffrey
donpaolo
the High C's are gems indeed. At the time my reaction was - an Italian
tenor with the beauty of DiStefano & top notes of Gedda. That "deserto in
terra" was alone woth the price of the album. Then, he become affected;
"Pavarotti Doing Pavarotti", along with undertaking heavier roles, for which
he was unsuited (remember, he was even slated for Forza, which he thankfully
cancelled, because he "did not have time to learn the role"...and, the rest
is history.
DonPaolo
"Ken Meltzer" <comm...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1136638190....@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Jon E. Szostak, Sr.
unsuited for some of the heavier stuff. I sang chorus to his 'Rhadames' and
I'll tell you...it was pretty damn good. Then again...during scenes with
the chorus (i.e. 'Sul del Nilo') I felt as if we (as individual tenors) put
out more sound than did he...but not so when he sang in 'L'Elisir' or
'Lucia'. Which is why I'm not sure I disagree entirely.
Still...there were no complaints from the house or the critics...nor anyone
whose opinion I trusted. I wonder if anyone on RMO can make further comment
on this
Jon E. Szostak, Sr.
"donpaolo" <donp...@erols.com> wrote in message
news:NaadnT2qj_7Polze...@rcn.net...
david...@aol.com
rhythmic sense, can present to the listener a kind of empty canvas upon
which he may paint/imagine any insight or emotion he pleases."
Another interesting observation from LJO. This "empty canvas" is
fundamental for the way that music works. In music, there is all of
this activity unfolding through time--hence LJO's emphasis on the
rhythmic sense--but the patterns are abstract. It's very easy for the
listener to glom onto these patterns and treat them as metaphors for
emotions unfolding through time. Not that the emotions depicted are
entirely arbitrary. This metaphorical "language"--music--is shared by
the members of the culture that produces and listens to it, in short,
by composer and listener alike. Of course, the emotions expressed may
be somewhat vague: they're not readily or entirely susceptible to
verbal paraphrase. "What music expresses is not too vague a thought
but too precise a thought to be put in words." (Mendelssohn)
In the case of singing, the human voice speaks for us. The tenor
articulates our emotions for us, not so much though the words, which
are literally a pre-text, but through the abstract musical patterns
that we automatically and unthinkingly accept as metaphors for emotion
whenever we actually succumb to music.
-david gable