Google Groups no longer supports new Usenet posts or subscriptions. Historical content remains viewable.
Dismiss
The Red Shoes
3 views
Skip to first unread message
Pat
Sep 20, 2011, 9:10:15 AM9/20/11
to
Somehow, I've managed to live quite a few years -- I became a great-
grandfather yesterday, which I still can not quite believe -- without
ever seeing the film 'The Red Shoes', which was released in the year
of my birth.
Until last tonight.
There were some wonderful things in it, but there was one thing that
I absolutely could not fathom. In the opening scene, students and
the rest of the audience rush into a theater to hear a performance.
Then, after it has begun, both the students and the professionals
(composer, ballet impresario, others) proceed to chatter away through
the whole thing. Not whispering, either. Talking, sometimes loudly.
Some of the talk is important to the plot, but surely much the same
effect could have been achieved via conversations during an
intermission or after the performance
This utterly disprespectful display in a film that above almost all
others purports to put music and dance on a pedestals seems very
bizarre to me. Has this been an issue in discussions of this classic
film before, or was it just considered poetic license?
The Wikipedia article makes the interesting point that American
balletomanes praised the film highly when it was a single-theater
arthouse film, but when it began achieving commercial success they
began putting it down. But it makes no reference to the audience
chatter issue.
Pat
grandfather yesterday, which I still can not quite believe -- without
ever seeing the film 'The Red Shoes', which was released in the year
of my birth.
Until last tonight.
There were some wonderful things in it, but there was one thing that
I absolutely could not fathom. In the opening scene, students and
the rest of the audience rush into a theater to hear a performance.
Then, after it has begun, both the students and the professionals
(composer, ballet impresario, others) proceed to chatter away through
the whole thing. Not whispering, either. Talking, sometimes loudly.
Some of the talk is important to the plot, but surely much the same
effect could have been achieved via conversations during an
intermission or after the performance
This utterly disprespectful display in a film that above almost all
others purports to put music and dance on a pedestals seems very
bizarre to me. Has this been an issue in discussions of this classic
film before, or was it just considered poetic license?
The Wikipedia article makes the interesting point that American
balletomanes praised the film highly when it was a single-theater
arthouse film, but when it began achieving commercial success they
began putting it down. But it makes no reference to the audience
chatter issue.
Pat
Message has been deleted
rich...@gmail.com
Sep 20, 2011, 9:44:37 AM9/20/11
to
Do you know their other films? Amazing body of work, from Colonel
Blimp to Thief of Baghad....on and on....careers kind of ended with
the very strange Peeping Tom...disturbing film...but so much of their
work is worth seeing!
Pat
Sep 20, 2011, 11:00:37 AM9/20/11
to
On Sep 20, 6:33 am, Terry <b...@clown.invalid> wrote:
> On Tue, 20 Sep 2011 23:10:15 +1000, Pat wrote
> (in article
> <26bccd56-2722-4d20-80fd-baa1f15a2...@h11g2000vbc.googlegroups.com>):
> Just poetic licence, I think. As it doesn't seem to disturb the rest of the
> audience or the musicians onstage, it appears we are meant to think of their
> conversation as whispered.
Maybe, but when three of them, incensed by the musical plagiarism of
the supposed 'composer', get up to leave in protest, during the middle
of the performance, they have to push and shove and climb over people
to get to the aisle -- no susurrant exit that. And isn't even
whispered conversation severely frowned on?
That said, there are folks here who have been to a hundred times as
many live performances as I have, and perhaps my take on the reality
of concert decorum is more reflective of what I have read here (in
general folks here have lambasted even the most modest of noise
makers), than what actually happens in big concert halls.
I bring it up because one imagines that it might be the kind of film
that a great many women took their children, especially girls in the
8-14 age range, to. But the audience behavior in the film certainly
didn't set a very good example for the concertgoers of tomorrow.
But I must confess that whenever I see it, it puts
> me in mind of the opening night of Le Sacre du Printemps (not that I was
> there, you understand).
That's true. There certainly have been performances (the debuts of
Il Barbiere and Madama Butterfly are notable examples) where some in
the audience got very stirred up over aesthetic issues. And there's
some of that here. But the students talk among themselves pretty much
non-stop, and the professionals in the boxes seem to be paying more
attention to each other than to what's going on onstage. We've all
seen a hundred films which depict parts of theatrical or music or
operatic performances, but I don't think I've ever seen a non-
slapstick film in which members of the audience are so inattentive and
distracting.
>
It was all very odd, I thought. And strange that an all-time great
like Massine would be a party to such goings-on.
Pat
> On Tue, 20 Sep 2011 23:10:15 +1000, Pat wrote
> (in article
> <26bccd56-2722-4d20-80fd-baa1f15a2...@h11g2000vbc.googlegroups.com>):
> audience or the musicians onstage, it appears we are meant to think of their
> conversation as whispered.
Maybe, but when three of them, incensed by the musical plagiarism of
the supposed 'composer', get up to leave in protest, during the middle
of the performance, they have to push and shove and climb over people
to get to the aisle -- no susurrant exit that. And isn't even
whispered conversation severely frowned on?
That said, there are folks here who have been to a hundred times as
many live performances as I have, and perhaps my take on the reality
of concert decorum is more reflective of what I have read here (in
general folks here have lambasted even the most modest of noise
makers), than what actually happens in big concert halls.
I bring it up because one imagines that it might be the kind of film
that a great many women took their children, especially girls in the
8-14 age range, to. But the audience behavior in the film certainly
didn't set a very good example for the concertgoers of tomorrow.
But I must confess that whenever I see it, it puts
> me in mind of the opening night of Le Sacre du Printemps (not that I was
> there, you understand).
That's true. There certainly have been performances (the debuts of
Il Barbiere and Madama Butterfly are notable examples) where some in
the audience got very stirred up over aesthetic issues. And there's
some of that here. But the students talk among themselves pretty much
non-stop, and the professionals in the boxes seem to be paying more
attention to each other than to what's going on onstage. We've all
seen a hundred films which depict parts of theatrical or music or
operatic performances, but I don't think I've ever seen a non-
slapstick film in which members of the audience are so inattentive and
distracting.
>
It was all very odd, I thought. And strange that an all-time great
like Massine would be a party to such goings-on.
Pat
Pat
Sep 20, 2011, 11:05:53 AM9/20/11
to
On Sep 20, 6:44 am, "richer...@hotnail.com" <richer...@gmail.com>
wrote:
Not really, no. Saw the reference to "Peeping Tom" and Powell's fall
in Wiki, but other than that didn't know much about him or his films.
Amazing body of work, from Colonel
> Blimp to Thief of Baghad....on and on....careers kind of ended with
> the very strange Peeping Tom...disturbing film...but so much of their
> work is worth seeing!-
The 'visuals' were spectacular, but the acting of the three principals
- seemed very mannered to me. I'm sure that to some extent that was
intentional -- that artists are captives of their art, blah, blah,
blah -- but at times it was very off-putting. And yet ... their
captivity captivated me too, in a way.
Pat
wrote:
in Wiki, but other than that didn't know much about him or his films.
Amazing body of work, from Colonel
> Blimp to Thief of Baghad....on and on....careers kind of ended with
> the very strange Peeping Tom...disturbing film...but so much of their
The 'visuals' were spectacular, but the acting of the three principals
- seemed very mannered to me. I'm sure that to some extent that was
intentional -- that artists are captives of their art, blah, blah,
blah -- but at times it was very off-putting. And yet ... their
captivity captivated me too, in a way.
Pat
A21²
Sep 20, 2011, 11:55:55 AM9/20/11
to
On Sep 20, 9:10 am, Pat <pfin...@fenceonline.com> wrote:
Vicky: Why do you want to live?
Thanks. Your post made me want to see this film again after lo these
many years. It is on YouTube in 13 parts and it is of surprisingly
good quality.*
http://www.youtube.com/user/RobinSena23344#p/c/DA739830CD3F60D2/0/svTTsrHCvdo
Ancona21
*I wonder whether it is the recently restored version.
http://articles.latimes.com/2009/may/17/entertainment/ca-redshoes17
rich...@gmail.com
Sep 20, 2011, 11:50:16 AM9/20/11
to
>
> - Show quoted text -
I think you have a point which I have never focused on in their
films, which is that the acting can be stagey or something....not
always, but maybe it was their style. Peeping Tom may be as creepy a
movie as anyone has made and at the end it directly threatens the
audience. I have a recollection that one of them did the Oh Rosalinda,
which is a telling of Fledermaus (I think with the star who did The
Day The Earth Stood Still, but I could be wrong - Rick Perry wasn't
acting then), and it is dreadful beyond human comprehension. It should
be required viewing for those who insist on liking Fledermaus.....one
viewing could cure all operatta going....
My comments are just like clockwork.
wkasimer
Sep 20, 2011, 12:02:44 PM9/20/11
to
On Sep 20, 9:10 am, Pat <pfin...@fenceonline.com> wrote:
> Somehow, I've managed to live quite a few years -- I became a great-
> grandfather yesterday,
Congratulations, Pat!
Bill
Pat
Sep 20, 2011, 12:40:02 PM9/20/11
to
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Thank you, Bill.
To celebrate the occasion, and being in a Red Shoes mood and all, I
hopped in the old roadster and drove over to Bed, Bath, and Ballet
yesterday and picked out a pair of red ballet slippers. Then I went
home and glided around the house with all the effortless elan of youth
for about thirty seconds, until I tore up an ACL banging into the edge
of our coffee table.
L'Apres-midi d'un Idiot.
Pat
rich...@gmail.com
Sep 20, 2011, 1:51:26 PM9/20/11
to
I must be a victim of not having benefitted from the No Poster Left
Behind Law, but I didn't see a post by you saying that you were now a
great grandfather, or I also would have congratulated you too. I feel
a kind of vicarious joy in thinking of how many younger generations
there are now to rebel against their elders!
Terrific.
All best
REP
Sep 20, 2011, 7:57:15 PM9/20/11
to
included their adaptation of Tales of Hoffmann:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3LKeDX2C5r4
Pretty good, but the English translation is terrible.
REP
gerberk
Sep 22, 2011, 1:03:06 PM9/22/11
to
That is one movie I really dont like at all.
It totally sucks.
Why has this movie been made is something one wonders abou
Gone with the wind from 1939 is much much better in my opinion
but this movie Yek
especially those fabulous colours.
"Pat" <pfi...@fenceonline.com> schreef in bericht
news:26bccd56-2722-4d20...@h11g2000vbc.googlegroups.com...
It totally sucks.
Why has this movie been made is something one wonders abou
Gone with the wind from 1939 is much much better in my opinion
but this movie Yek
especially those fabulous colours.
"Pat" <pfi...@fenceonline.com> schreef in bericht
news:26bccd56-2722-4d20...@h11g2000vbc.googlegroups.com...
Steve Crook
Sep 27, 2011, 3:20:04 AM9/27/11
to
They're students (from the Royal Academy of Music). They're also up in
the Gods, in the cheap seats. They would have to shout very loudly to
disturb most of the audience or any of the performers.
When the students stormed out the audience around them expressed their
extreme outrage. But they were British so they expressed that outrage
by tutting under their breath :)
Steve
JimCo
Oct 5, 2011, 12:13:39 PM10/5/11
to
>
> - Show quoted text -
Of course the epitome of disturbances at opera must be when Wagner's
> - Show quoted text -
debut of Tannhauser was totally destroyed when the (as I recall the
name) Jockey Club members disrupted the opening scene with their
antics. They were protesting having a ballet so early in a
performance, as they were used to arriving fashionably late at musical
events but still being treated to dance scenes.
Also, last year I was able to purchase a DVD of The Red Shoes online.
As I recall it was from amazon.com. It's an excellent reproduction in
every way.
JimCo
Mike Scott Rohan
Oct 7, 2011, 12:31:00 AM10/7/11
to
On Sep 20, 4:50 pm, "richer...@hotnail.com" <richer...@gmail.com>
Cast included Sir Michael Redgrave, Anthony Quayle, Mel Ferrer, Anton
Walbrook, Dennis Price, Ludmila Tcherina (the ballerina), Anneliese
Rothenberger; some dubbed singing voices supplied by Sari Barabas, no
less, Alexander Young (Stravinsky's favourite Tom Rakewell), Walter
Berry and Dennis Dowling. Not, though, Michael Rennie, from Day the
Earth.... I agree it's a bit odd, but you have to remember it wasn't
made for the ages; it was very much a film of its time, an
affectionate attempt by Emeric Pressburger, Walbrook, the designer
Hein Heckroth and other Viennese refugees in the UK to set it in their
still occupied city, Hence Walbrook's plea during the party for the
city's freedom. It was using Fledermaus to point a contemporary
satire, therefore, with Quayle's Orlovsky becoming the arbitrary
Russian commandant (adding a wry edge to Chacun a son gout),
Redgrave's French colonel and Ferrer's American fighting over the
symbolically Viennese Rosalinda, with the British Colonel Frank
running the jail. The result was more ingenious than convincing,
certainly, but entirely possible to enjoy on its own pleasantly loopy
but affectionate terms. Far from curing me of operetta going, I found
it increased my appreciation of Vienna, which I was just getting to
know, and daft Viennese humour -- and certainly it's no worse than
stodgy trad versions or Neunfels' drug and incest-laden "update". As
so often in the cinema, you just have to take it on its own eccentric
terms.
Cheers,
Mike
Walbrook, Dennis Price, Ludmila Tcherina (the ballerina), Anneliese
Rothenberger; some dubbed singing voices supplied by Sari Barabas, no
less, Alexander Young (Stravinsky's favourite Tom Rakewell), Walter
Berry and Dennis Dowling. Not, though, Michael Rennie, from Day the
Earth.... I agree it's a bit odd, but you have to remember it wasn't
made for the ages; it was very much a film of its time, an
affectionate attempt by Emeric Pressburger, Walbrook, the designer
Hein Heckroth and other Viennese refugees in the UK to set it in their
still occupied city, Hence Walbrook's plea during the party for the
city's freedom. It was using Fledermaus to point a contemporary
satire, therefore, with Quayle's Orlovsky becoming the arbitrary
Russian commandant (adding a wry edge to Chacun a son gout),
Redgrave's French colonel and Ferrer's American fighting over the
symbolically Viennese Rosalinda, with the British Colonel Frank
running the jail. The result was more ingenious than convincing,
certainly, but entirely possible to enjoy on its own pleasantly loopy
but affectionate terms. Far from curing me of operetta going, I found
it increased my appreciation of Vienna, which I was just getting to
know, and daft Viennese humour -- and certainly it's no worse than
stodgy trad versions or Neunfels' drug and incest-laden "update". As
so often in the cinema, you just have to take it on its own eccentric
terms.
Cheers,
Mike
Mike Scott Rohan
Oct 7, 2011, 12:34:50 AM10/7/11
to
Cheers,
Mike
Mike Scott Rohan
Oct 7, 2011, 12:41:03 AM10/7/11
to
Jockeys' private harem, which they expected to have perform for them
-- but only when they'd finished dinner. The girls apparently regarded
themselves as the creme de la creme, terrible snobs who wouldn't admit
anyone less than a Baron to the green room, or consider the advances
of anyone less than a Marquis. Even Prince Edward was admitted on
tolerance, as a mere foreigner.
Cheers,
Mike
0 new messages