madonna & money
Ira K Janis
I know Forbes magazine publishes annual lists on the highest-income
entertainers. I'd really want to know
a) how much did Madonna make last year?
b) how much money has she made in the past?
c) how much is she worth?
--
Ira Janis ija...@helsinki.fi
"Curiosity killed the cat. But, for a while, I was a suspect" -Steve Wright
William McBrine
: c) how much is she worth?
She's priceless. :-)
--
William McBrine
wmcb...@clark.net
little
>
> I know Forbes magazine publishes annual lists on the highest-income
> entertainers. I'd really want to know
> a) how much did Madonna make last year?
> b) how much money has she made in the past?
> c) how much is she worth?
>
in the top ten of Celebrities.
ANd I too, believe she is priceless.
Lit...@bcl.santarosa.edu
Michael John Falkner
: In article <38kfcm$3...@uwm.edu> mfal...@alpha2.csd.uwm.edu (Michael John Falkner) writes:
: >
: > little (lit...@bcl.santarosa.edu) wrote:
: >
: > : TV guide posted her Net WOrth a couple of Years ago I know she was
: > : ANd I too, believe she is priceless.
: > I guess prostitutes do have their fans too...
: Ack! Flamebait alert! I guess busybodies just don't learn...
Might appear flamebait, but it's really true. She's the master at
prostituting herself to sell records, and now a whole generation of female
musicians is following in her footsteps.
Mike Falkner
Tom Wu
>
> little (lit...@bcl.santarosa.edu) wrote:
>
> : ANd I too, believe she is priceless.
>
Ack! Flamebait alert! I guess busybodies just don't learn...
--
Thomas Wu "Driving the Information Superhighway
Internet: t...@mtgbcs.att.com is a privilege, not a right."
"Why is common sense... so uncommon?"
Tom Wu
>
> Might appear flamebait, but it's really true. She's the master at
> prostituting herself to sell records, and now a whole generation of female
> musicians is following in her footsteps.
Rather than repeating that tired refrain again, how about posting something
of substance and commenting on her new album? She's broken new musical
ground again with collaborations with an array of new artists and released
a work that is even more personal, in many ways, than Like A Prayer.
Of course, I've discovered that Madonna's most vocal critics are too busy
trying to trash her to have time to listen. Their loss.
Michael John Falkner
: In article <38mgvd$m...@uwm.edu> mfal...@alpha2.csd.uwm.edu (Michael John Falkner) writes:
: >
: > Might appear flamebait, but it's really true. She's the master at
: > prostituting herself to sell records, and now a whole generation of female
: > musicians is following in her footsteps.
: Rather than repeating that tired refrain again, how about posting something
: of substance and commenting on her new album? She's broken new musical
: ground again with collaborations with an array of new artists and released
: a work that is even more personal, in many ways, than Like A Prayer.
: Of course, I've discovered that Madonna's most vocal critics are too busy
: trying to trash her to have time to listen. Their loss.
Problem is, I have listened. Up to this album, it's been the same dance
schlock that 100 other artists have tried. She only puts her body so far in
front of the matter that she obscures her music entirely.
Mike
little
>
> : TV guide posted her Net WOrth a couple of Years ago I know she was
> : ANd I too, believe she is priceless.
>
>
>
Nice Mike I guess you could probaly tell me all about prostitutes,
now couldn't you. Well since some of are interested in something
other then the sex life of someone (good or bad). We listen to the
music and how we can relate or just dig it. get a life and get off
this group, if you don't like her don't listen. I on the other hand
choose not to listen to bigoted and slanderious opinions. Thanks for
sharing.
Little
little
>
> : TV guide posted her Net WOrth a couple of Years ago I know she was
> : ANd I too, believe she is priceless.
>
>
> Mike
>
experience with them, huh? Well, SInce I and many others woud prefer
to listen to someone's music, rather than bash them for who they are
or who others claim they are. Music speaks to us and either brings us
joy or we can simply groove to it. I like a lot of Madonna tunes and
have for many years. What she does behind closed doors is none of my
business and I will therefore not judge her for it. Besides most of
you have listened to, you just wanted to be a part of, why else would
you have listened. Since it is obvious that you are sexually repressed
get a clue. Stop hiding behind your fears and except life with an
open mind. As someone once said "If you don't get it, it ain't worth
explaining." If you don't like Madonna, then don't listen to her.
All of us who do, won't mind one bit.
Little
Michael John Falkner
: > little (lit...@bcl.santarosa.edu) wrote:
: >
: > : TV guide posted her Net WOrth a couple of Years ago I know she was
: > : in the top ten of Celebrities.
: > : ANd I too, believe she is priceless.
: >
: > I guess prostitutes do have their fans too...
: >
: > Mike
: >
: Nice Mike I guess you could probaly tell me all about prostitutes,
: now couldn't you.
No, sir. I was referring to Madonna as one. And you can take that in
many ways.
: Well since some of are interested in something
: other then the sex life of someone (good or bad). We listen to the
: music and how we can relate or just dig it. get a life and get off
: this group, if you don't like her don't listen. I on the other hand
: choose not to listen to bigoted and slanderious opinions. Thanks for
: sharing.
Hey... I posted this to rec.music.misc... I can't help it that this got to
the fan group, but now that it's there, I don't mind...
Bigoted and slanderous opinions?? Considering Madonna's record, I will take
that as a complement.
Mike
William McBrine
: Might appear flamebait, but it's really true.
No, asshole, it's really flamebait.
--
William McBrine
wmcb...@clark.net
Tom Wu
>
> Problem is, I have listened. Up to this album, it's been the same dance
> schlock that 100 other artists have tried. She only puts her body so far in
> front of the matter that she obscures her music entirely.
"Dance schlock"? If you don't like dance music, fine, but that places you
in a bad position to judge it. Anyway, she produces much more than just
dance music. _Bedtime_Stories_ has no real dance music to speak of; it's
almost all ballads and instrumentals with a heavy R&B slant. There's
something for just about anyone, even you who hate dance "schlock". :-)
Michael John Falkner
: Michael John Falkner (mfal...@alpha2.csd.uwm.edu) wrote:
: : Might appear flamebait, but it's really true.
: No, asshole, it's really flamebait.
I happen to think what I said was true, sir. So it's not flamebait. =)
As for the asshole comment, you must really have experience with them...
Mike
[now that _is_ flamebait, for the net.impaired like this poster]
Tom Wu
> William McBrine (wmcb...@clark.net) wrote:
>
> : No, asshole, it's really flamebait.
>
> I happen to think what I said was true, sir. So it's not flamebait. =)
>
> As for the asshole comment, you must really have experience with them...
*sigh* Here we go again... BTW, for the record, just because you believe
something doesn't magically convert it into anything other than flamebait.
Only a newbie in the worst sense of the word would post something like
mfalkner's original line and not see the flames coming a mile away.
Tom Wu
>
> little (lit...@bcl.santarosa.edu) wrote:
> : Nice Mike I guess you could probaly tell me all about prostitutes,
> : now couldn't you.
>
> No, sir. I was referring to Madonna as one. And you can take that in
> many ways.
Okay, I'll bite. In which way do *you* take it? Obviously, she doesn't
fit the dictionary definition. In what sense are you calling her one?
(Not that I agree in the slightest, but I think we should get definitions
straight first).
Michael John Falkner
: In article <38ov6v$o...@uwm.edu> mfal...@alpha2.csd.uwm.edu (Michael John Falkner) writes:
: >
: > little (lit...@bcl.santarosa.edu) wrote:
: > : Nice Mike I guess you could probaly tell me all about prostitutes,
: > : now couldn't you.
: >
: > No, sir. I was referring to Madonna as one. And you can take that in
: > many ways.
: Okay, I'll bite. In which way do *you* take it? Obviously, she doesn't
: fit the dictionary definition. In what sense are you calling her one?
: (Not that I agree in the slightest, but I think we should get definitions
: straight first).
Here's how I come up with Madonna as a prostitute:
She's using her body -- and only limited musical potential -- to sell her
records. For you people over in a.f.m., how many of you would be fans [or
even have heard of Madonna to the extent you do now] if she hadn't basically
started shoving her breasts out in public for full view of everyone...
The woman uses her body as a means to gain more exposure [pun not intended]
and sell her records. That, to me, is prostitution. Using sex to gain
money.
Mike Falkner
mfal...@csd.uwm.edu
Michael John Falkner
: In article <38p6ht$j...@uwm.edu> mfal...@alpha2.csd.uwm.edu (Michael John Falkner) writes:
: > William McBrine (wmcb...@clark.net) wrote:
: >
: > : No, asshole, it's really flamebait.
: >
: > I happen to think what I said was true, sir. So it's not flamebait. =)
: >
: > As for the asshole comment, you must really have experience with them...
: *sigh* Here we go again... BTW, for the record, just because you believe
: something doesn't magically convert it into anything other than flamebait.
: Only a newbie in the worst sense of the word would post something like
: mfalkner's original line and not see the flames coming a mile away.
Flamebait is just saying something for the sake of being flamed.
I'm expressing my true opinions about Madonna. It makes me ppuke to see her
style being copied by even my favorites. When an artist sells their body to
try to get more record sales, that makes my stomach turn.
Mike Falkner
William McBrine
: Problem is, I have listened. Up to this album, it's been the same dance
: schlock that 100 other artists have tried.
Every one of her albums, up to and including this one, has been distinct
from any of her others; in general, she's improved with each one. And at
least 90 of those 100 other artists are simply imitating Madonna. Their
stuff may well be shlock, because it's derivative.
: She only puts her body so far in front of the matter that she obscures
: her music entirely.
That's simply nonsense. As a fan, I readily admit I like her body, but
it's very far down on the list of things I like about her. The music is at
the top. I know a blind guy who's a huge Madonna fan... not to mention her
millions of straight female and gay male fans.
--
William McBrine
wmcb...@clark.net
Michael John Falkner
: Michael John Falkner (mfal...@alpha2.csd.uwm.edu) wrote:
: : Problem is, I have listened. Up to this album, it's been the same dance
: : schlock that 100 other artists have tried.
: Every one of her albums, up to and including this one, has been distinct
: from any of her others; in general, she's improved with each one. And at
: least 90 of those 100 other artists are simply imitating Madonna. Their
: stuff may well be shlock, because it's derivative.
So it's a "which came first, the chicken or the egg?" argument...
We'll be debating that ad nauseum...
: : She only puts her body so far in front of the matter that she obscures
: : her music entirely.
: That's simply nonsense. As a fan, I readily admit I like her body, but
: it's very far down on the list of things I like about her. The music is at
: the top. I know a blind guy who's a huge Madonna fan... not to mention her
: millions of straight female and gay male fans.
I'll admit that there are fans that get into the music, but I submit that
the main way people know about Madonna is how far she shoves her breasts
into the camera for all to see.
Mike Falkner
William McBrine
: No, sir. I was referring to Madonna as [a prostitute]. And you can
: take that in many ways.
I can see only one way to take that.
: Bigoted and slanderous opinions?? Considering Madonna's record, I will
: take that as a complement.
Madonna's record is one of combatting bigotry in every shape and form.
--
William McBrine
wmcb...@clark.net
William McBrine
: I'll admit that there are fans that get into the music, but I submit that
: the main way people know about Madonna is how far she shoves her breasts
: into the camera for all to see.
Wrong. Your submission is not accepted.
--
William McBrine
wmcb...@clark.net
Paul Halley
: Here's how I come up with Madonna as a prostitute:
: She's using her body -- and only limited musical potential -- to sell her
: records. For you people over in a.f.m., how many of you would be fans [or
: even have heard of Madonna to the extent you do now] if she hadn't basically
: started shoving her breasts out in public for full view of everyone...
: The woman uses her body as a means to gain more exposure [pun not intended]
: and sell her records. That, to me, is prostitution. Using sex to gain
: money.
Does this mean that all those volleyball-playing ladies on the Budweiser
commercials are prostitutes too? What about that woman riding that
giant beeper on those billboards all over LA? And then there's that
famous harlot of the past, Marilyn Monroe. And let's not forget Julie
Andrews, who "shov[ed] her breasts out in public for full view of
everyone" in her hubby's film _SOB_.
Madonna's art is an accurate expression of America's sexual
confusion, as is your post, with its prudish, reflex-action putdowns
not quite camouflaging your own prurient interest in the subject.
Paul
pha...@crl.com
Richard Caley
mjf> The woman uses her body as a means to gain more exposure [pun not
mjf> intended] and sell her records. That, to me, is prostitution.
No, it's Rock and Roll.
--
r...@cogsci.ed.ac.uk _O_
|<
Richard Caley
mjf> I happen to think what I said was true, sir. So it's not flamebait. =)
Fools are allowed to post flamebait too.
--
r...@cogsci.ed.ac.uk _O_
Michael John Falkner
: Michael John Falkner (mfal...@alpha2.csd.uwm.edu) wrote:
: : No, sir. I was referring to Madonna as [a prostitute]. And you can
: : take that in many ways.
: I can see only one way to take that.
William, as I said, there are many ways to take that comment... You chose
one way to take it, and there are many other ways she prostitutes herself
and the entire music industry.
: : Bigoted and slanderous opinions?? Considering Madonna's record, I will
: : take that as a complement.
: Madonna's record is one of combatting bigotry in every shape and form.
Yeah, right...
Mike Falkner
Michael John Falkner
: Michael John Falkner (mfal...@alpha2.csd.uwm.edu) wrote:
: : I'll admit that there are fans that get into the music, but I submit that
: : the main way people know about Madonna is how far she shoves her breasts
: : into the camera for all to see.
: Wrong. Your submission is not accepted.
Then counter it. Don't just come out here with your "Madonna is God"
attitude and try to convince the Net of your and her superiority, cause it
just don't wash!!
Mike Falkner
Michael John Falkner
: In article <38p6ht$j...@uwm.edu>, Michael John Falkner (mjf) writes:
: mjf> I happen to think what I said was true, sir. So it's not flamebait. =)
: Fools are allowed to post flamebait too.
You seem to know a lot about the subject of fools... And judging by THAT
flame-bait... NAH!! Too easy...
Michael John Falkner
: In article <38rjs7$c...@uwm.edu>, Michael John Falkner (mjf) writes:
: mjf> The woman uses her body as a means to gain more exposure [pun not
: mjf> intended] and sell her records. That, to me, is prostitution.
: No, it's Rock and Roll.
And that's one of my problems with the state of said medium.
Mike
Michael John Falkner
: Does this mean that all those volleyball-playing ladies on the Budweiser
: commercials are prostitutes too? What about that woman riding that
Why do you think that a lot of people would like to see the practice of
skimpily-clad women helping to sell beer stopped? A one word answer to your
question: yep.
: giant beeper on those billboards all over LA? And then there's that
: famous harlot of the past, Marilyn Monroe. And let's not forget Julie
: Andrews, who "shov[ed] her breasts out in public for full view of
: everyone" in her hubby's film _SOB_.
Three more good examples. I think that the media's fascination with sex and
sexuality has cheapened a lot of what they try to accomplish. It doesn't
take much talent to do what they, or Madonna, are doing.
: Madonna's art is an accurate expression of America's sexual
: confusion, as is your post, with its prudish, reflex-action putdowns
: not quite camouflaging your own prurient interest in the subject.
Prurient? Are you trying to insinuate that I am sexually interested in
Madonna?? If so, please spare your breath. I prefer women with some class.
Mike Falkner
mfal...@csd.uwm.edu
Richard Caley
mjf> And that's one of my problems with the state of said medium.
It's always been like that. Think about Presley, jagger etc.
--
r...@cogsci.ed.ac.uk _O_
|<
Richard Caley
In article <3942ub$8...@uwm.edu>, Michael John Falkner (mjf) writes:
mjf> You seem to know a lot about the subject of fools...
Oh wow, I am hurt, what an amazing flame.
--
r...@cogsci.ed.ac.uk _O_
|<
Paul Halley
: : Madonna's art is an accurate expression of America's sexual
: : confusion, as is your post, with its prudish, reflex-action putdowns
: : not quite camouflaging your own prurient interest in the subject.
: Prurient? Are you trying to insinuate that I am sexually interested in
: Madonna?? If so, please spare your breath. I prefer women with some class.
No, I don't imagine you're sexually interested in Madonna (as though that
would get you anywhere). I do think you are unhealthily interested in
exposure or non-exposure of female breasts (the "subject" to which I was
referring). Just because you're against something doesn't mean you're
not spending inordinate amounts of time thinking about it (quite the
contrary, in fact). Anyway, enjoy your fantasies, and remember,
"happiness lies in your own hand" - just don't stain the sheets!
Paul
pha...@crl.com
Michael John Falkner
: In article <395qe3$o...@uwm.edu>, Michael John Falkner (mjf) writes:
: mjf> And that's one of my problems with the state of said medium.
: It's always been like that. Think about Presley, jagger etc.
Not as blatant as now, though. You are correct when you talk about Presley
[remember the Ed Sullivan editing?], and Jagger of course has some legend
behind him, but it's now gotten to the point where you have to be sexual to
survive in pop music, and, even more so, it has to be believable...
Mike
Tom Wu
> William McBrine (wmcb...@clark.net) wrote:
>
> Then counter it. Don't just come out here with your "Madonna is God"
> attitude and try to convince the Net of your and her superiority, cause it
> just don't wash!!
Whoa, hold on a minute. You made the submission, at least have the presence
of mind to back it up with something other than "I *think* it's right".
As for my end of things, I've read too many dissertations, essays, papers,
academic journals, articles, and books about Madonna's influence on our
culture to take seriously the claim that her body was the key to her
success. Her videos, maybe, but *not* her breasts. Besides, countless
artists have tried before and since, including some of your "favorites",
but how many do we actually remember?
Tom Wu
>
> I'm expressing my true opinions about Madonna. It makes me ppuke to see her
> style being copied by even my favorites. When an artist sells their body to
> try to get more record sales, that makes my stomach turn.
First of all, what's the point of blaming another artist for the supposed
shortcomings of your "favorites"? They're the ones who should be making
you puke. And Madonna isn't "selling her body", but integrating it into
her own form of self-expression and style. Why do you have so much trouble
understanding the difference when it's as plain as day?
William McBrine
: Does this mean that all those volleyball-playing ladies on the Budweiser
: commercials are prostitutes too?
Well, yes, kind of. That's a bad example; it's truly exploiting sexuality
for commercial purposes. Particularly if you're referring to the "Swedish
Bikini Team" ads, which are really dehumanizing and objectifying. Like
Robert Palmer's videos, where all the women are robotic cloned sex
objects... and the exact opposite of Madonna's work, which I'd call
"rehumanizing" and "subjectifying".
--
William McBrine
wmcb...@clark.net
fnov...@email.bony.com
She'll do anything for it.
Frank
Richard Caley
mjf> You are correct when you talk about Presley [remember the Ed
mjf> Sullivan editing?], and Jagger of course has some legend behind
mjf> him, but it's now gotten to the point where you have to be sexual
mjf> to survive in pop music, and, even more so, it has to be
mjf> believable...
All that has changed is the social context. There is more explicit sex in soap
operas etc, just as there is more explicit sex in pop. The fact that
one of the major sections of pop-ionography is blatently sexual hasn't
changed at all. When Bessy Smith was singing about her Poppa Bee with
a sting as long as her right arm, she wasn't talking about apiculture.
And it's certainly not necessary to be explicitly sexual to chart,
just as always you can be mind numbingly sentimental or ridiculously
adolescent and sulky or...
--
r...@cogsci.ed.ac.uk _O_
|<
Richard Caley
rjc> When Bessy Smith was singing about her Poppa Bee [...]
Or was that `Big Momma' Thornton? Anyway, you get the point.
--
r...@cogsci.ed.ac.uk _O_
|<
Michael John Falkner
: Paul Halley (pha...@crl.com) wrote:
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!! I laugh out loud at this crap!!!
MY GOOD GOD!! If this is how Madonna fans look at her videos, then they've
truly lost all sense of reality!!
You call Erotica "rehumanizing"???
ROTFLMAO!!!!
Mike Falkner
mfal...@csd.uwm.edu
Michael John Falkner
: And it's certainly not necessary to be explicitly sexual to chart,
: just as always you can be mind numbingly sentimental or ridiculously
: adolescent and sulky or...
I doubt this seriously. If you are of the latter categories, you can best
take it as a matter of time before you are shoved into the former.
Mike
Michael John Falkner
: In article <38rjv8$c...@uwm.edu> mfal...@alpha2.csd.uwm.edu (Michael John Falkner) writes:
: >
: > I'm expressing my true opinions about Madonna. It makes me ppuke to see her
: > style being copied by even my favorites. When an artist sells their body to
: > try to get more record sales, that makes my stomach turn.
: First of all, what's the point of blaming another artist for the supposed
: shortcomings of your "favorites"? They're the ones who should be making
Which would be true except for one problem...
Once you get to the point that people in the music industry see that the
Madonna syndrome is almost necessary for success [Name more than maybe three
female artists that don't in some way employ sex as one of their themes and
I'd be surprised...], it's not hard to see where one gets pushed into it.
If it were of the artist's own free will, then it would be a shortcoming...
: you puke. And Madonna isn't "selling her body", but integrating it into
: her own form of self-expression and style. Why do you have so much trouble
: understanding the difference when it's as plain as day?
Because there IS no difference, at least with respect to Madonna!!
You see, most people DON'T CARE about how Madonna wants to express herself
and how she wants to be stylistic. People want to see her naked... That's
it!! Now maybe there are a bunch of fans that do want to see how stylistic
and expressionistic she can be, but I'd submit that's far in the minority.
Mike Falkner
mfal...@csd.uwm.edu
Caitlin M.
Falkner) writes:
Let me try to explain it to you- although you seem to be stuck in
viewing-women-as-either-virgins-or-whores mode.
Madonna is not an OBJECT that plays into stereotypical "male" sexual
fantasies. She is the SUBJECT because they are clearly her fantasies and
not to please anyone else.
Get it?
Caitlin M.
Falkner) writes:
This is because MOST people become more aware of and comfortable with
their own sexuality as they grow older. You'll undertstand one day...
Caitlin M.
Falkner) writes:
Name more than maybe three
>female artists that don't in some way employ sex as one of their themes
and
>I'd be surprised...], it's not hard to see where one gets pushed into
it.
Pushed into it? Man, oh man. Wake up. Sexuality is a part of life,
and women are allowed to enjoy their sexuality, you know. And as for
laying the "blame" for this on Madonna, Tina Turner, Debbie Harry, and
plenty of other women were sexual on a mainstream level before anyone
had even heard of Madonna Ciccone.
Caitlin M.
Falkner) writes:
And whiile I'm at it, I should say that I'm one of this minoirity
you mentioned. I''m and admirer of Madonna more for her influence on
modern pop culture and her undervalued talent as a sngwriter than
anything else.
I should also tell you that I'm enjoying our little debate ;-).
Michael John Falkner
: This is because MOST people become more aware of and comfortable with
: their own sexuality as they grow older. You'll undertstand one day...
Oh, I get it... Once we become more comfortable with our sexuality, we can
act on those impulses...
Mike
Caitlin M.
Falkner) writes:
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
It all depends on what your impulses are. Examining that is a big
part of what Madonna's work inspires some of us to do.
Michael John Falkner
: In article <393n1i$6...@uwm.edu> mfal...@alpha2.csd.uwm.edu (Michael John Falkner) writes:
: > William McBrine (wmcb...@clark.net) wrote:
: > : Wrong. Your submission is not accepted.
: >
: > Then counter it. Don't just come out here with your "Madonna is God"
: > attitude and try to convince the Net of your and her superiority, cause it
: > just don't wash!!
: Whoa, hold on a minute. You made the submission, at least have the presence
: of mind to back it up with something other than "I *think* it's right".
You guys came out [at the very start of this] in rec.music.misc, with a
thread that basically told the world "Madonna Rules", "Madonna is God", and
the like... To which makes me puke...
Madonna has taken the sexual revolution in pop music and taken it to the
brink of open sex during concerts. I'm surprised she hasn't done that [yet].
And all this with a woman who's not that good looking...
: As for my end of things, I've read too many dissertations, essays, papers,
: academic journals, articles, and books about Madonna's influence on our
: culture to take seriously the claim that her body was the key to her
: success. Her videos, maybe, but *not* her breasts. Besides, countless
: artists have tried before and since, including some of your "favorites",
: but how many do we actually remember?
Quite a few. Remember Olivia Newton-John, for one??
"Soul Kiss" made me about want to throw up!!
Try Debbie Gibson. I have a review of her "Losin' Myself" video that damn
near lost me as her fan...
Am I angry?? You sure as hell right I am!! Because people like Madonna and
the other sex artists in pop music make it impossible for true talent to be
heard...
And then they have to get desperate...
Mike
Alex Fung
: In article <398rgc$i...@uwm.edu>,
: mfal...@alpha2.csd.uwm.edu (Michael John Falkner) writes:
: |> Try Debbie Gibson. I have a review of her "Losin' Myself" video that
: |> damn near lost me as her fan...
: Why? I'm sorry, I've never seen that over hear in Europe.
: (I wish I had.) I just don't get the context. And I'm curious...
Most people in North America haven't seen the video either, since
the single didn't have much chart success.
Mr. Falkner intensely disliked the video for the song due to the
fact that Gibson had a stripping sequence. This simply did not
mesh with her previous squeaky-clean image, and I believe Mr.
Falkner was worried that Gibson would become like Madonna at
the time, in order to revive her flagging career.
--
Alex Fung (fu...@bnr.ca) (905)-452-3886
Northern Telecom - Bramalea Labs
Tom Wu
>
> This is to noone and to anyone. People in this country and several others
> are generally sexually repressed. I think America has an excuse because it
> is a young country and was basically founded by the Puritans. So, it's
> just a question of time until the mentality starts to change drastically.
> I'm used to seeing nude people on Billboards and TV commercials. I'm also
> used to seeing what is referred to here (America) as soft and hard porn on
> public access tv. And I'll put in my 2 cents by saying I think Madonna
> sucks pissed-on rocks.
Why? Your last sentence contradicts the rest of your article, assuming that
you wanted America to become less sexually repressed.
Richard Caley
rjc> And it's certainly not necessary to be explicitly sexual to chart,
rjc> just as always you can be mind numbingly sentimental or ridiculously
rjc> adolescent and sulky or...
mjf> I doubt this seriously. If you are of the latter categories, you can best
mjf> take it as a matter of time before you are shoved into the former.
Examples of people who chart in categories other than the sexually
explicit: REM. Nirvana. Elton John. Mr Blobby. MC Hammer. etc.
All of which is besides the point since you still havn't managed to
explain what is so wrong with sex? At least sex is a something real,
unlike the tacky glitz pushed by many of the people who get onto the
US charts (the UK charts are minutely better since they don't get
hijacked by radio play, but the difference is small).
--
r...@cogsci.ed.ac.uk _O_
|<
Michael John Falkner
: In article <398qua$i...@uwm.edu>, Michael John Falkner (mjf) writes:
: Examples of people who chart in categories other than the sexually
: explicit: REM. Nirvana. Elton John. Mr Blobby. MC Hammer. etc.
Blobby -- a novelty. Refreshing to see him do well.
Hammer -- BZZT! Look at his last video [Humps to the Bump, I think...]
John I'll grant you.
Nirvana?? Ed. comment: Probably too stupid to...
: All of which is besides the point since you still havn't managed to
: explain what is so wrong with sex? At least sex is a something real,
If you're selling music, then you belong in the music business.
Selling sex should land you on a street corner or in jail, not at #1 on the
Billboard charts with millions looking up to you all over the world.
That answer your question??
: unlike the tacky glitz pushed by many of the people who get onto the
: US charts (the UK charts are minutely better since they don't get
: hijacked by radio play, but the difference is small).
I'd say the UK charts are a lot better... US people would've laughed at the
likes of Mr. Blobby... Elton John is doing well, but could be doing
better...
Mike
Michael John Falkner
: In article <398rgc$i...@uwm.edu>, Michael John Falkner (mjf) writes:
: mjf> Am I angry?? You sure as hell right I am!! Because people like
: mjf> Madonna and the other sex artists in pop music make it impossible
: mjf> for true talent to be heard...
: Don't be silly. How does Madonna flashing her nipples make it harder
: for you to listen to what you want.
Because the stuff I want becomes unavailable -- as in not released in this
country.
Mike
Richard Caley
mjf> Am I angry?? You sure as hell right I am!! Because people like
mjf> Madonna and the other sex artists in pop music make it impossible
mjf> for true talent to be heard...
Don't be silly. How does Madonna flashing her nipples make it harder
for you to listen to what you want.
--
r...@cogsci.ed.ac.uk _O_
|<
Tom Wu
>
> behind him, but it's now gotten to the point where you have to be sexual to
> survive in pop music, and, even more so, it has to be believable...
I wouldn't draw that conclusion; some artists are in fact being "sexual"
and succeeding, but it is a gross exaggeration to say that *everyone* is
doing it and that you *must* do it to survive. Your group of "favorite"
pop stars does not an industry make.
Michael John Falkner
: In article <399c5v$l...@uwm.edu>, Michael John Falkner (mjf) writes:
: rjc> Don't be silly. How does Madonna flashing her nipples make it harder
: rjc> for you to listen to what you want.
: mjf> Because the stuff I want becomes unavailable -- as in not released in this
: mjf> country.
: Er, what's the causal link here?
It used to be that if you put some actual work in the music and could
actually sing and/or play an instrument, you could go far.
Now, your success is usually in mathematically direct proportion to the
amount of skin you believably show.
There's your causal link.
Mike
Caitlin M.
Falkner) writes:
>
>It used to be that if you put some actual work in the music and could
>actually sing and/or play an instrument, you could go far.
>
>Now, your success is usually in mathematically direct proportion to the
>amount of skin you believably show.
Funny, I've never seen Barbra Streisand, Mariah Carey, Anita Baker,
and they sell records simply because their name is on them, just like
Madonna.
Richard Caley
rjc> Don't be silly. How does Madonna flashing her nipples make it harder
rjc> for you to listen to what you want.
mjf> Because the stuff I want becomes unavailable -- as in not released in this
mjf> country.
Er, what's the causal link here?
--
r...@cogsci.ed.ac.uk _O_
|<
Richard Caley
mjf> Blobby -- a novelty. Refreshing to see him do well.
Didn't he appear in the video for his single in the nude!
mjf> Nirvana?? Ed. comment: Probably too stupid to...
I don't know, the only N-related CD I have is Corbain(sp?) and William
Burroughs, which at least has a little intelectual cred.
mjf> If you're selling music, then you belong in the music business.
mjf> Selling sex should land you on a street corner or in jail, not at
mjf> #1 on the Billboard charts with millions looking up to you all
mjf> over the world.
But they aren't selling sex, they are selling music which deals with
sex. What's wrong with that?
``Don't want you bullshit, just want your sexuality,
Don't need excuses, write me your poetry in motion,
Write it kjust for me,
And sign it with a kiss.''
- Kate Bush, Song of Solomon
--
r...@cogsci.ed.ac.uk _O_
|<
Hans Huttel
>>>>> "WeKnowWho" == Michael John Falkner <mfal...@alpha2.csd.uwm.edu> writes:
WeKnowWho> Not likely, but it is happening. Especially with the
WeKnowWho> emergence of cRAP "music" [yeah, I'll incorporate that
WeKnowWho> flamewar too...], sexual themes have become the norm,
WeKnowWho> instead of the exception. I mean, Madonna may not be
WeKnowWho> pushing anyone, but the "Madonna formula" or "syndrome"
WeKnowWho> certainly could be...
Is this a flamewar ? D don't think so. This is more a case of everyone
agreeing that young Mike Falkner is an unrepentant, narrowminded
ignoramus?
Hans (who happens to like that awful sexual aspect of human existence)
--
Hans Huttel | ha...@iesd.auc.dk
Dept. of Mathematics and Computer Science | fax: (+45) 98 15 81 29
Aalborg University | tel.: (+45) 98 15 85 22, ext. 5014
9220 Aalborg \emptyset, DENMARK. | Read this.
Tom Wu
> Tom Wu (t...@mthpgc.att.com) wrote:
> : future artists but she isn't pushing anyone through. If Madonna stops using
> : sexual themes in her work, will everyone else follow? Not bloody likely.
>
> Not likely, but it is happening. Especially with the emergence of cRAP
> "music" [yeah, I'll incorporate that flamewar too...], sexual themes have
Oh nooo, not *that*
> become the norm, instead of the exception. I mean, Madonna may not be
> pushing anyone, but the "Madonna formula" or "syndrome" certainly could be...
Oh, I agree, she certainly isn't restricting any artists options; the opposite
would be more true. Think of it from the opposite perspective: Musical acts,
especially female artists, are now able to express and integrate sexual themes
into their work without getting as much flak and being called all sorts of
names. If the men can do it, it is only fair that women can too. The
Victorian era is over. But see below before turning on the flamethrower.
> I disagree, especially with the admitted impact Madonna has had on the
> music landscape. Female artists didn't have to literally strip in their
> work to be recognized, but now it's hard for a female musician to gain any
> respect at all if she won't bare a little skin to back it up...
You've said before that the record companies are the ones who are dropping
artists who don't rake in the bucks. They're the ones embodying the attitude
you so despise, and although they are a less obvious target, you should focus
your blame there. Madonna happens to be the latest artist in a long line
incorporating sensuality into her work, but the record companies still get
to decide who lives and who dies, in a manner of speaking. If Atlantic
records drops Gibson because she doesn't sell, maybe she should go to a label
that better recognizes musical talent. I submit that they're the ones at fault.
> You really think that in the age of MTV, a person's music actually means
> anything anymore in the music business??
Yep. With airplay factoring as much as it does into chart performance,
I'd still say so. They can't watch you over FM...
Tom Wu
>
> Now, your success is usually in mathematically direct proportion to the
> amount of skin you believably show.
Okay, Mike, be a good boy and show your proof on the blackboard for the class.
Alex Fung
: In article <39cbpu$n...@uwm.edu> mfal...@alpha2.csd.uwm.edu (Michael John Falkner) writes:
: > Tom Wu (t...@mthpgc.att.com) wrote:
: > : future artists but she isn't pushing anyone through. If Madonna stops using
: > : sexual themes in her work, will everyone else follow? Not bloody likely.
: >
: > Not likely, but it is happening. Especially with the emergence of cRAP
: > "music" [yeah, I'll incorporate that flamewar too...], sexual themes have
: Oh nooo, not *that*
Oh boy, let's throw in Mike's "Beavis & Butthead" flamewar too!
And the flamewar on Fermat's Last Theorem (readers of Mike's anti-rap
thread last year might remember this one).
--
Alex Fung (fu...@bnr.ca) (905)-452-3886
Northern Telecom - Bramalea Labs
All opinions are mine, I think.
Moritz Barsnick
mfal...@alpha2.csd.uwm.edu (Michael John Falkner) writes:
|> Try Debbie Gibson. I have a review of her "Losin' Myself" video that
|> damn near lost me as her fan...
Why? I'm sorry, I've never seen that over hear in Europe.
(I wish I had.) I just don't get the context. And I'm curious...
Moritz :)
Tom Wu
>
> Tom Wu (t...@mthpgc.att.com) wrote:
> : Whoa, hold on a minute. You made the submission, at least have the presence
> : of mind to back it up with something other than "I *think* it's right".
>
> You guys came out [at the very start of this] in rec.music.misc, with a
> thread that basically told the world "Madonna Rules", "Madonna is God", and
> the like... To which makes me puke...
And, as I recall, you posted that little morsel about prostitution. None of
which has anything to do with your submission about most of her fans being
raving, hormone-crazed male adolescents. Now that I think about it, you
made exactly the same claim during a similar flame war about a year ago.
I also remember you promising to produce some hard numbers backing your
case. Of course, you never did, and a year later, we're all still waiting.
To wit:
In article <1993Oct19.1...@cnsvax.uwec.edu>, falk...@cnsvax.uwec.edu wr
ites:
>> Mike, what statistical evidence do you have to support this claim? I've
>> stated before that *all* artists have fans ranging from mildly supportive
>> ones to people who devote their lives to their idol. Nothing unusual here.
>> You're making a fairly serious claim against Madonna fans, and the burden
>> of proof is upon you to back it up. Numbers, please!
>
> This shall be stated in a separate post, but it shall be stated.
Ed. note: I browsed quickly through last year's flamewar. So far, this
one has been more civil. Let's just see how long *that* lasts. :-)
> : success. Her videos, maybe, but *not* her breasts. Besides, countless
> : artists have tried before and since, including some of your "favorites",
> : but how many do we actually remember?
>
> Quite a few. Remember Olivia Newton-John, for one??
Who has faded into relative obscurity, at least in the US. I happen to know
who she was only because my parents used to have some of her 8-tracks.
> Am I angry?? You sure as hell right I am!! Because people like Madonna and
> the other sex artists in pop music make it impossible for true talent to be
> heard...
Your motivation is obvious, but it still doesn't support your position.
Michael John Falkner
: Just because one artist (or even many artists) does/do something right and
: earns success as a result doesn't mean that everyone should follow or even
: that it's the right course for everyone. She may have opened the door for
: future artists but she isn't pushing anyone through. If Madonna stops using
: sexual themes in her work, will everyone else follow? Not bloody likely.
Not likely, but it is happening. Especially with the emergence of cRAP
"music" [yeah, I'll incorporate that flamewar too...], sexual themes have
become the norm, instead of the exception. I mean, Madonna may not be
pushing anyone, but the "Madonna formula" or "syndrome" certainly could be...
: See above (re: being pushed). So what your saying is that your the artists
: you admire(d) have no free will or are afraid to use it?
Be realistic! What is the bottom line in the [especially pop] music
business?? To make money. To move product. And if one artist can't do it,
they'll be shoved back into the background so that other artists would take
the forefront.
I hate to say it,
: but the music industry is not so small that any one artist or even a record
: label can dictate what artists *must* do to succeed. Madonna herself had to
: "break the rules" to get where she is now.
I disagree, especially with the admitted impact Madonna has had on the
music landscape. Female artists didn't have to literally strip in their
work to be recognized, but now it's hard for a female musician to gain any
respect at all if she won't bare a little skin to back it up...
: > Because there IS no difference, at least with respect to Madonna!!
: >
: > You see, most people DON'T CARE about how Madonna wants to express herself
: > and how she wants to be stylistic. People want to see her naked... That's
: Again, judging an artist by the way fans react. So if I wanted to see
: Debbie Gibson naked, that makes her a prostitute? Please.
If you wanted to see her naked, I'd call you desperate. =)
But Debbie, as far as her music career goes, also decided to Madonna-ize her
career and prostitute herself. I'm glad she realized her mistake.
: > it!! Now maybe there are a bunch of fans that do want to see how stylistic
: > and expressionistic she can be, but I'd submit that's far in the minority.
: You've made that submission before, but I'm still not buying it. I could
: say from my experience that the opposite is true, but all this really proves
: nothing.
You really think that in the age of MTV, a person's music actually means
anything anymore in the music business??
Mike
Tom Wu
>
> : All of which is besides the point since you still havn't managed to
> : explain what is so wrong with sex? At least sex is a something real,
>
> If you're selling music, then you belong in the music business.
> Selling sex should land you on a street corner or in jail, not at #1 on the
> Billboard charts with millions looking up to you all over the world.
But she isn't selling sex. Just using it in her work. Artists since the
beginning of time have been doing it. You argue that she takes it even
farther than that, but I'd be worried if she were just duplicating their
efforts and not exploring and experimenting in her own way.
Tom Wu
> Tom Wu (t...@mthpgc.att.com) wrote:
> : First of all, what's the point of blaming another artist for the supposed
> : shortcomings of your "favorites"? They're the ones who should be making
>
> Which would be true except for one problem...
>
> Once you get to the point that people in the music industry see that the
> Madonna syndrome is almost necessary for success [Name more than maybe three
Just because one artist (or even many artists) does/do something right and
earns success as a result doesn't mean that everyone should follow or even
that it's the right course for everyone. She may have opened the door for
future artists but she isn't pushing anyone through. If Madonna stops using
sexual themes in her work, will everyone else follow? Not bloody likely.
> female artists that don't in some way employ sex as one of their themes and
> I'd be surprised...], it's not hard to see where one gets pushed into it.
>
> If it were of the artist's own free will, then it would be a shortcoming...
See above (re: being pushed). So what your saying is that your the artists
you admire(d) have no free will or are afraid to use it? I hate to say it,
but the music industry is not so small that any one artist or even a record
label can dictate what artists *must* do to succeed. Madonna herself had to
"break the rules" to get where she is now.
> : you puke. And Madonna isn't "selling her body", but integrating it into
> : her own form of self-expression and style. Why do you have so much trouble
> : understanding the difference when it's as plain as day?
>
> Because there IS no difference, at least with respect to Madonna!!
>
> You see, most people DON'T CARE about how Madonna wants to express herself
> and how she wants to be stylistic. People want to see her naked... That's
Again, judging an artist by the way fans react. So if I wanted to see
Debbie Gibson naked, that makes her a prostitute? Please.
> it!! Now maybe there are a bunch of fans that do want to see how stylistic
> and expressionistic she can be, but I'd submit that's far in the minority.
You've made that submission before, but I'm still not buying it. I could
say from my experience that the opposite is true, but all this really proves
nothing.
Michael John Falkner
: In article <399c2h$l...@uwm.edu> mfal...@alpha2.csd.uwm.edu (Michael John Falkner) writes:
: >
: > : All of which is besides the point since you still havn't managed to
: > : explain what is so wrong with sex? At least sex is a something real,
: >
: > If you're selling music, then you belong in the music business.
: > Selling sex should land you on a street corner or in jail, not at #1 on the
: > Billboard charts with millions looking up to you all over the world.
: But she isn't selling sex. Just using it in her work. Artists since the
What is her work?? She's a musician trying to make money with sex at the
forefront of her image, glorifying it and the like while trying to pass
herself off as an AIDS activist. If she ain't selling sex, then I have a
hard time thinking of who is...
: beginning of time have been doing it. You argue that she takes it even
: farther than that, but I'd be worried if she were just duplicating their
: efforts and not exploring and experimenting in her own way.
I'm worried she takes it that far, since she's encouraging others to take it
even farther...
Mike
Tom Wu
>
> their nipples) by a ratio of 50:1 (at least), he feels it compels
> them to also revert to glamour and sensuality in order to boost
> their sales and ensure their contracts to record labels are
> continued. If they don't, Mr. Falkner believes their record
> companies will dump them. (ie. Atlantic Records on Gibson).
I've said it before and I'll say it again, but fashion changes like the
phase of the moon and fads come and go, but the greed of the record company
will last until the end of mankind. Blaming Madonna for the policies and
decisions of Atlantic records is like blaming Picasso for so-called
"modern art". Actually quite funny in a sense.
Caitlin M.
posts since I guess I threaten him for some reason. I want this posted
where evryone can read it.
In <39cbdg$n...@uwm.edu> mfal...@alpha2.csd.uwm.edu (Michael John
Falkner) writes:
>
>: But she isn't selling sex. Just using it in her work. Artists since
the
>
>What is her work?? She's a musician trying to make money with sex at
the
>forefront of her image, glorifying it and the like while trying to pass
>herself off as an AIDS activist. If she ain't selling sex, then I have
a
>hard time thinking of who is...
You know what her work is. You put "musician" first. I would've put
"celebrity" or "icon" next but YOU put sex next. How come you only think
of sex when it comes to Madonna?
By the way, a woman-or man, for that matter- who will engage in
sexual activity in exchange for money is "selling sex". Arguably,
Madonna sells ideas and images, but not sex.
And "pass herself off" as an AIDS activist is a ridiculous statement
and you know it. With the time and the money she has given to the cause
and the information about the virus that she has spread, she IS an
activist. Although you can't bring yourself to say anything positive
about Madonna (in public) those asre the facts.
>
>: beginning of time have been doing it. You argue that she takes it
even
>: farther than that, but I'd be worried if she were just duplicating
their
>: efforts and not exploring and experimenting in her own way.
>
>I'm worried she takes it that far, since she's encouraging others to
take it
>even farther...
Yeah- people talking about sex is REALLY dangerous, Mike. Next they
might even start thinking for themselves!
-Cait.
Caitlin M.
Gollent) writes:
>
>Tom Wu (t...@mthpgc.att.com) wrote:
>: Why? Your last sentence contradicts the rest of your article,
assuming that
>: you wanted America to become less sexually repressed.
>
>All I am trying to say is that I am from a non-repressed background and
I
>still think Madonna sucks.
Good choice of words this time. Last time you stated it as fact. this
time you state it as opinion. You're welcome to think what you like.
-Cait.
Tom Wu
> Tom Wu (t...@mthpgc.att.com) wrote:
> : you wanted America to become less sexually repressed.
>
> still think Madonna sucks.
You still didn't say why...
Tom Wu
> Tom Wu (t...@mthpgc.att.com) wrote:
> : But she isn't selling sex. Just using it in her work. Artists since the
>
> What is her work?? She's a musician trying to make money with sex at the
> forefront of her image, glorifying it and the like while trying to pass
> herself off as an AIDS activist. If she ain't selling sex, then I have a
> hard time thinking of who is...
Think harder. Sex has been a part of her image to varying degrees (in fact,
she has toned it down recently), and it would be more accurate to say that
being honest about sexuality is what is part of her image. BTW, after
considering the millions of dollars she has donated to AIDS research and
the time and energy spent both organizing and participating in AIDS benefits,
I'd call her the most visible and effective AIDS activist (individual) to date.
> I'm worried she takes it that far, since she's encouraging others to take it
> even farther...
Which, again, has been happening since Man struck two stones together to
make sound (or was it sticks? :-)
Rodney Eric Griffith
: Moritz Barsnick (y000...@ws.rz.tu-bs.de) wrote:
: : In article <398rgc$i...@uwm.edu>,
: Most people in North America haven't seen the video either, since
: the single didn't have much chart success.
: Mr. Falkner intensely disliked the video for the song due to the
: fact that Gibson had a stripping sequence. This simply did not
: mesh with her previous squeaky-clean image, and I believe Mr.
: Falkner was worried that Gibson would become like Madonna at
: the time, in order to revive her flagging career.
Of course obfuscating the fact that she *always* aped Madonna, from
dressing identically to Madonna's character in "Papa Don't Preach" on _Out
of the Blue_'s cover, to using Fred Zarr (who worked on _Madonna_). Mr.
Falkner's fundamentalcase vagiphobia tends to obscure his vision of this.
--
In the End, There Can Be Only One.
rod...@en.com
MR G NAUDE
Isn't there an alt.bitching channel that people could take their complaints
to instead of posting them here?
>Indeed. In the world of pop music, looks aren't important traditionally and
>never were. What is the world coming to? We should be able to listen to
>music without thinking about sex.
Sex is a reality brother!
>Why can't Madonna be a nice girl like, say, Amy Grant, Gloria Estefan or
>Debbie Gibson?
That's because "nice girls" like Debbie Gibson and Kylie Minogue
never get anywhere in this world. When last did I hear a single by Debbie
Gibson.......? Anyway, it's about time that a woman can show what she
wants, and do what she wants without being cut down by chauvenists. GOOD
FOR MADONNA FOR DOING WHAT SHE WANTS AND WHAT SHE BELIEVES IN! If you don'
t like it, then just don't watch her videos and don't come pleading/
moaning on this Newsgroup because we sure ain't got a problem with
Madonna!
>Instead we are subjected to her lewd and sexually explicit videos.
>Sometimes, when I'm up late at night I catch a glimpse of "Erotica" on MTV.
>I invariably have to change channels after a few minutes.
See, you're half way there! (see above) :)
>Madonna is so inferior, her songs aren't even music. Things have certainly
>gone downhill since the days of the late, great Elvis Presley.
Well what then is music? It sure sounds like music to me. Well one can just
see what time era you are still in <tight laced bodice etc.etc. So I
suppose all the work that Madonna has done for AIDS -sufferers, sexual
liberation and charity is conveniently overlooked? Maybe one of the
charities that she has funded could have helped Elvis with his drug
problem. Then all the better for us- you could have Elvis and we will still
have Her Majesty, Madonna! :)
May you get a life! :)
Garth
Michael John Falkner
BTW, people have been known to lose their accounts by posting others' e-mail
to them without the author's consent. I guess I can put that up with the
mail bomb that I received about three days ago to give me a pretty good
indication that your arguments are only that you're trying to drown me out.
I rapidly grow tired of such idiocy. You claim my arguments are based on my
feelings, when the same can be said for yours. You need to take a look at
the general feelings about Madonna before you can come up and tell me that
she isn't seen as a sexual enterprise. [I'll be sophisticated with it...
=)]
If you wish to try to back up your feelings that Madonna's career is not
centered on sex, you need to remember what has made her one of the most
popular and most-pictured artists of the last 15 years. I assure you that
it is not her music or her manipulative intelligence.
Mike Falkner
Caitlin M.
>
>In article <39bst5$7...@bmerha64.bnr.ca> fu...@bnr.ca (Alex Fung)
writes:
>>
>> their nipples) by a ratio of 50:1 (at least), he feels it compels
>> them to also revert to glamour and sensuality in order to boost
>> their sales and ensure their contracts to record labels are
>> continued. If they don't, Mr. Falkner believes their record
>> companies will dump them. (ie. Atlantic Records on Gibson).
>
>I've said it before and I'll say it again, but fashion changes like the
>phase of the moon and fads come and go, but the greed of the record
company
>will last until the end of mankind. Blaming Madonna for the policies
and
>decisions of Atlantic records is like blaming Picasso for so-called
>"modern art". Actually quite funny in a sense.
Not only that, but sex and sexuality has always been a part of pop
music and pop culture. Madonna didn't invent it.
Why do people try to argue otherwise?
-Cait.
William McBrine
: > You guys came out [at the very start of this] in rec.music.misc,
Originally, the thread was crossposted to rec.music.misc, alt.fan.madonna,
and alt.celebrities. (alt.celebrities got removed from the newsgroups line
at some point.)
: > with a thread that basically told the world "Madonna Rules", "Madonna
: > is God",
Someone asked how much she was "worth", and I replied "She's priceless"
(with no other comment). I believe Thomas Wu posted his agreement - hardly
"Madonna is God" - to which you replied "I guess prostitutes have their
fans too."
Even the simplest things can't pass through you undistorted, can they?
--
William McBrine
wmcb...@clark.net
Hans Huttel
>>>>> "MikeFalkner" == Michael John Falkner
<mfal...@alpha2.csd.uwm.edu> writes:
[ stuff deleted ]
MikeFalkner> I'm expressing my true opinions about Madonna. It
MikeFalkner> makes me ppuke to see her style being copied by even
MikeFalkner> my favorites. When an artist sells their body to try
MikeFalkner> to get more record sales, that makes my stomach turn.
Indeed. In the world of pop music, looks aren't important
traditionally and never were. What is the world coming to? We should
be able to listen to music without thinking about sex. Why can't
Madonna be a nice girl like, say, Amy Grant, Gloria Estefan or Debbie
Gibson? Instead we are subjected to her lewd and sexually explicit
videos. Sometimes, when I'm up late at night I catch a glimpse of
"Erotica" on MTV. I invariably have to change channels after a few
minutes. Madonna is so inferior, her songs aren't even music. Things
have certainly gone downhill since the days of the late, great Elvis
Presley.
Hans
Levien de Braal
MR G NAUDE <g94n...@giraffe.ru.ac.za> wrote:
>Why can't Madonna be a nice girl like, say, Amy Grant, Gloria Estefan or
>Debbie Gibson?
>-never get anywhere in this world. When last did I hear a single by Debbie
>-Gibson.......?
Depends on when you stopped listening to real music and went for the
McDonna product.
>-So I
>-suppose all the work that Madonna has done for AIDS -sufferers, sexual
>-liberation and charity is conveniently overlooked?
As far as I can see what she's doing on video's, etc.. she's supporting
the SPREAD of AIDS, not fighting against it. You just live her sexual
fantasies and find out for yourself how long it takes you to get AIDS with
those ideas of hers.
>-May you get a life! :)
>-Garth
May you get a life of your own, instead of being led by, as you refer to her,
'her majesty Madonna'.
Levien
Richard Caley
mjf> [Name more than maybe three female artists that don't in some way
mjf> employ sex as one of their themes and I'd be surprised...]
Er, if you don't like it, don't buy it. Of course, you're going to be
a bit stuck for music since everything except pure church music has
alwasy had a good slice of sex, and the church music is full of sexual
metaphores.
mjf> You see, most people DON'T CARE about how Madonna wants to express herself
mjf> and how she wants to be stylistic. People want to see her
mjf> naked...
I think you're projecting massively. She's not that good looking, and
anyone can walk into a shop and buy any number of nude pictures of
people.
--
r...@cogsci.ed.ac.uk _O_
|<
MR G NAUDE
: >or Debbie Gibson?
>: >-That's because "nice girls" like Debbie Gibson and Kylie Minogue
>: >-never get anywhere in this world. When last did I hear a single by Debbie
>: >-Gibson.......?
>: Depends on when you stopped listening to real music and went for the
>: McDonna product.
*How on earth can you call Debbie Gibson real music*!? It is superficial,
trite, bubble-gummer crap.
>: As far as I can see what she's doing on video's, etc.. she's supporting
>:the SPREAD of AIDS, not fighting against it. You just live her sexual
>:fantasies and find out for yourself how long it takes you to get AIDS
>:with those ideas of hers.
Madonna is *not* advocating free-for-all sex, with her as leader. She is
going against sexual taboos (ie. prejudices against homosexuality) and
showing how ridiculous they are. She is encouraging people to experiment
with their sexuality and find out who they really are, and not be forced to
live under sexual restraints that bigots and homophobes prescribe to the
rest of society ,which ultimately results in dissatisfaction/unhappiness.
And, she adds, that in either case, one should always practise safe-sex. She
is encouraging people to take *resposibilty for their own actions*, giving
them the *right to decide and freedom of speech*.
Try and think about that (I know that you still have your Victorian Age
blinkers on but still...)
Garth
Michael John Falkner
: : >Why can't Madonna be a nice girl like, say, Amy Grant, Gloria Estefan
: : >or Debbie Gibson?
: >: >-That's because "nice girls" like Debbie Gibson and Kylie Minogue
: >: >-never get anywhere in this world. When last did I hear a single by Debbie
: >: >-Gibson.......?
: >: Depends on when you stopped listening to real music and went for the
: >: McDonna product.
: *How on earth can you call Debbie Gibson real music*!? It is superficial,
: trite, bubble-gummer crap.
I'll echo your last question... "When last did [you] hear a single by
Debbie Gibson?"
And I'd like an honest answer....
: >: As far as I can see what she's doing on video's, etc.. she's supporting
: >:the SPREAD of AIDS, not fighting against it. You just live her sexual
: >:fantasies and find out for yourself how long it takes you to get AIDS
: >:with those ideas of hers.
: Madonna is *not* advocating free-for-all sex, with her as leader. She is
: going against sexual taboos (ie. prejudices against homosexuality) and
: showing how ridiculous they are.
Let's see -- she is also going against the taboos of:
-- multiple partners [one or multiple acts]
-- homosexuality
-- and open sex.
Now if that isn't free-for-all... And that's three things that don't really
inhibit the spread of AIDS...
: She is encouraging people to experiment
: with their sexuality and find out who they really are, and not be forced to
: live under sexual restraints that bigots and homophobes prescribe to the
: rest of society ,which ultimately results in dissatisfaction/unhappiness.
So unless we are free and uninhinbited with our sexuality, we will be
unhappy... Oh please...
And how can one "experiment with their sexuality" and not do it, eh??
And do we have to do such an experiment to find out who we really are??
NOW ONE SHOULD SEE WHY I'VE BEEN RAILING SO MUCH, through the mail-bomb and
the e-mail being posted and the threats that I've received...
This is a lot more than just a difference in musical taste. This is a lot
more than just an exercise in "Gibson rules! Madonna sucks!!" and vice
versa.
This is a statement of ideology. This poster, and I believe most Madonna
fans by their statements during this flamewar, are basically saying that to
be a real person, to be who we are, we must be comfortable with [read:
experiment with] our sexuality.
How one can equate that not to a more open series of sexual encounters is
beyond me.... And how can they call themselves fans of an AIDS activist
when they and she advocate through her image things which no AIDS activist
in their right mind would deal with??
For AIDS to be defeated, we must make all realize that they have to be
careful in sex, and if that means a "Victorian-style" look to things, so be
it.
Sir, one must realize that the "sexual restraints" prescribed by the
"bigots
: And, she adds, that in either case, one should always practise safe-sex
While in her image dismissing the idea. Actions speak louder than words,
especially with a media icon like Madonna...
: She
: is encouraging people to take *resposibilty for their own actions*, giving
: them the *right to decide and freedom of speech*.
The freedom of speech only exists until the government which grants it is
threatened, Garth. If it got to the point where the government felt
threatened by the music, it would be stopped.
And if you don't believe me on that statement, Garth, ask Tipper Gore.
As for responsibility for their own actions, you give people a lot more
credit than I or Levien do. I don't think there are that many people
willing to take said responsibility, even in our age group.
: Try and think about that (I know that you still have your Victorian Age
: blinkers on but still...)
I am, and I accept the blinkers if they are necessary. One needs to look at
things realistically.
In the age where sex is becoming more and more open in the media and the
youth of our nation are becoming less and less responsible, we have a
disease out there that kills, period.
You get it, you die. And with Madonna being the most visible fighter
against it gives you one idea why the fight is still not being taken as
seriously as it should.
Mike Falkner
Michael John Falkner
: In article <398r8t$i...@uwm.edu>, Michael John Falkner (mjf) writes:
: mjf> [Name more than maybe three female artists that don't in some way
: mjf> employ sex as one of their themes and I'd be surprised...]
: Er, if you don't like it, don't buy it. Of course, you're going to be
: a bit stuck for music since everything except pure church music has
: alwasy had a good slice of sex, and the church music is full of sexual
: metaphores.
I don't, Richard. It's just getting to the point that there's nothing TO
buy anymore that isn't....
: mjf> You see, most people DON'T CARE about how Madonna wants to express herself
: mjf> and how she wants to be stylistic. People want to see her
: mjf> naked...
: I think you're projecting massively. She's not that good looking, and
: anyone can walk into a shop and buy any number of nude pictures of
: people.
But that's Madonna's only draw, or are you trying to give more intelligence
to the MTV generation than I am willing to give credit for??
Mike
Alex Fung
In a previous article, t...@mthpgc.att.com (Tom Wu) says:
>being honest about sexuality is what is part of her image. BTW, after
>considering the millions of dollars she has donated to AIDS research and
>the time and energy spent both organizing and participating in AIDS benefits,
>I'd call her the most visible and effective AIDS activist (individual) to date.
I disagree - I would definitely believe that Elizabeth Taylor is more
prominent that Madonna as an AIDS activist.
However, didn't Madonna once plan to include a condom in the packing
of one of her album releases? (I seem to recall reading that somewhere).
That certainly would dispute claims that she does not discourage safe
sex.
--
Alex Fung (aw...@freenet.carleton.ca)
"Be afraid. Be very afraid." - Geena Davis, _The Fly_ (1986)
(and later Christina Ricci, _Addams Family Values_)
William McBrine
: Indeed. In the world of pop music, looks aren't important
: traditionally and never were.
Looks: arguable. But sex appeal, which is quite distinct from looks, has
always been *the* most important thing for performers of pop music, male
or female.
: Why can't Madonna be a nice girl like, say, Amy Grant, Gloria Estefan or
: Debbie Gibson?
This is where I started to think your whole article was meant
sarcastically. All of the above have traded on their sex appeal (yes,
including Amy Grant).
: Things have certainly gone downhill since the days of the late, great
: Elvis Presley.
And this is where I became sure of it, since Elvis was known for little
else but his raw sexuality onstage (especially in his early days). He
scandalized 50's America.
--
William McBrine
wmcb...@clark.net
Michael John Falkner
: I hope this was meant 'ironically' since in the 50s, as least as far as i
: have read in one of those 'rawk' history books, folks thought of the
: Elvis as you think now of Madonna.
Which is true, that last statement. But things have gone downhill so that
the sex can be a lot less disguised today as in Elvis' day. At least his
gyrating hips were clothed most if not all of the time...
Mike
Michael John Falkner
: >>>>> "MikeFalkner" == Michael John Falkner
: <mfal...@alpha2.csd.uwm.edu> writes:
: [ stuff deleted ]
: Indeed. In the world of pop music, looks aren't important
: traditionally and never were. What is the world coming to? We should
: be able to listen to music without thinking about sex. Why can't
: Madonna be a nice girl like, say, Amy Grant, Gloria Estefan or Debbie
: Gibson?
The first two I'll grant you, but the third one will run you into trouble,
especially if her last album is any indication of the future of Gibson's
work, Madonna and Gibson could have a lot of comparisons between them...
Mike
Archie Medrano
: : rjc> Don't be silly. How does Madonna flashing her nipples make it harder
: : rjc> for you to listen to what you want.
: I think what Mike Falkner is trying to say is that since Madonna,
: who flashes her nipples, outsells his favourite artists like
: Debbie Gibson and Olivia Newton-John (who don't generally flash
: their nipples) by a ratio of 50:1 (at least), he feels it compels
: them to also revert to glamour and sensuality in order to boost
: their sales and ensure their contracts to record labels are
: continued. If they don't, Mr. Falkner believes their record
: companies will dump them. (ie. Atlantic Records on Gibson).
Why can't females show their nipples while men do all the time???
--
Archie Medrano (amed...@euclid.ucsd.edu)
"The most exciting phrase in science, the one that heralds
new discoveries, is not 'Eureka' (I found it!) but
'That's funny...'" -- Isaac Asimov
Michael John Falkner
something different with his musical career, so he helped guide a woman of
16 to the top of the charts...
As far as always mimicking Madonna pre-"Body, Mind, Soul", I have followed
her career for a much longer time and in much more depth than you have. I
can safely assert that she has had a tasteful career for her first three
albums, and, hence, did not mimic Madonna's career.
Mike Falkner
transmat
>>Instead we are subjected to her lewd and sexually explicit videos.
>>Sometimes, when I'm up late at night I catch a glimpse of "Erotica" on MTV.
>>I invariably have to change channels after a few minutes.
>
>>Madonna is so inferior, her songs aren't even music. Things have certainly
>>gone downhill since the days of the late, great Elvis Presley.
I hope this was meant 'ironically' since in the 50s, as least as far as i
have read in one of those 'rawk' history books, folks thought of the
Elvis as you think now of Madonna.
--
10101010101010101010101=-I brake for Web Sites-=101010101010101010101010101
Michael John Falkner
: In article <g94n3702.7...@giraffe.ru.ac.za>,
: MR G NAUDE <g94n...@giraffe.ru.ac.za> wrote:
: >Why can't Madonna be a nice girl like, say, Amy Grant, Gloria Estefan or
: >Debbie Gibson?
: >-That's because "nice girls" like Debbie Gibson and Kylie Minogue
: >-never get anywhere in this world. When last did I hear a single by Debbie
: >-Gibson.......?
: Depends on when you stopped listening to real music and went for the
: McDonna product.
Precisely. Why do you think Mr Naude made that statement...
Oh, BTW, shall I give Mr. Naude a list of singles and let him pick the last
once he's had enough taste to hear of??
Also, your statement, Mr. Naude, on how "nice girls" never make it is
PRECISELY THE PROBLEM that this whole flame-war centers on -- that it is
necessary to do what Levien implies...
: As far as I can see what she's doing on video's, etc.. she's supporting
: the SPREAD of AIDS, not fighting against it. You just live her sexual
: fantasies and find out for yourself how long it takes you to get AIDS with
: those ideas of hers.
Precisely, Levien. Is it no wonder that in the day and age of AIDS, that
some of the biggest music supporters of the fight against it can't seem to
keep their images consistent with the stands behind it??
: >-May you get a life! :)
: >-Garth
: May you get a life of your own, instead of being led by, as you refer to her,
: 'her majesty Madonna'.
I couldn't say it better myself, Levien. Want to join me when
alt.flame.mike-falkner is newgrouped by one of these morons??
Mike
MR G NAUDE
teleport.>com) wrote:
>>: >Mike
>>: Why do you deduce that just because someone can appear naked in public view
>>: that "things are going downhill"? WHAT IS THE BIG DEAL? For ^&*^%!~'s sake
>>So you have no problem with women appearing naked, eh??
I have no problem with women (or men) appearing naked. Why must you
assume that just because I am a male I can only think with my dick? I enjoy
her work *not* because it gives me a turn on but because most of it has
Artistic Value. True I wasn't too thrilled with her book "Sex" but that
doesn't mean I should turn against her. I have seen more good things that
she has done than bad...
>>: we are all human - it's nothing that we havn't seen before. This is >:
>just another form of Artistic Expression. Anyway, the human body is >:
>beautiful to look at. Just because you probably have some malfunctioning >:
>body part you feel needs to be concealed doesn't mean the rest of us have to!
>>Heh. No, the only malfunction that has is, unlike a lot of men, I tend not
>>to have my decisions made by that part of my body. Should I??
For your information I am not thinking with "that part of my body". I don't
get a turn-on or a thrill by watching her naked on stage. THAT IS NOT THE
REASON WHY I LIKE MADONNA. I know that you probably won't believe it, but I
can look at Madonna objectively and still adore her. Why do you think that
my gay friends like her....? I can assure you not because of her appearing
naked, or because of her book "Sex"...Does free speech, non-discrimination
sound familiar?
>>We are all human. But if you want to take license of Artistic Expression,
>>there are a lot of things that artists are doing in the name of artistic
>>expression that are illegal.
It was also once illegal for women to vote, blacks to sleep with whites,
blacks to enter a white bathroom etc.etc. I could go on...
>>Madonna herself has almost been arrested for>some of them. Bobby Brown has
>been arrested.
So? Your point being...?
Garth
fnov...@email.bony.com
> confusion, as is your post, with its prudish, reflex-action putdowns
> not quite camouflaging your own prurient interest in the subject.
>
Actually, Madonna exploits America's sexual confusion, by doing
whatever she can to shock the general public. I've never had too much
of an opinion on Madonna, probably because she's never shocked me...
Frank Novacek
fnov...@email.bony.com
MR G NAUDE
: >or Debbie Gibson?
>: >: >-That's because "nice girls" like Debbie Gibson and Kylie Minogue
>: >: >-never get anywhere in this world. When last did I hear a single by Debbie
>: >: >-Gibson.......?
>: >: Depends on when you stopped listening to real music and went for the
>: >: McDonna product.
>: *How on earth can you call Debbie Gibson real music*!? It is superficial,
>: trite, bubble-gummer crap.
>I'll echo your last question... "When last did [you] hear a single by
>Debbie Gibson?"
>And I'd like an honest answer....
I really don't see what this has got to do with me liking Madonna. I have an
extremely eclectic taste in music, and I like music from Mozart to
Metal. It is simply that Debbie Gibson's music doesn't appeal to my
taste. But I don't go around trying to persuade everybody not to listen
to her. Even though I listen to the radio and nearly anything that is
played, I haven't heard anything recently (for the past two years) by Gibson.
So what? And if you are going to say "Well Madonna has only succeeded
because she is so commercial" what is wrong with that? Alvin Ailey's dance
theatre is also commercial but it is still art, and he makes a lot of money,
and people enjoy his dance theatre. Good for him.
>: >: As far as I can see what she's doing on video's, etc.. she's supporting
>: >:the SPREAD of AIDS, not fighting against it. You just live her sexual
>: >:fantasies and find out for yourself how long it takes you to get AIDS
>: >:with those ideas of hers.
>: Madonna is *not* advocating free-for-all sex, with her as leader. She is
>: going against sexual taboos (ie. prejudices against homosexuality) and
>: showing how ridiculous they are.
> Let's see -- she is also going against the taboos of:
>-- multiple partners [one or multiple acts]
>-- homosexuality
>-- and open sex.
People must take responsibility for their own actions. Do you think that
Madonna would have done any of those things if she thought that they had
AIDS?! I am sure that they would have all been screened before she did
what she did ie. therefore being resposible. Anyway, if someone gets AIDS
because they have been irresponsible I have little sympathy for them.
*And don't* say that you are not prejudiced, because the mere fact that
you added "homosexuality" means that you are also one of the bigots who
believe that AIDS has spread so fast because of gays and it is all the
fault of gays , and that they are a higher risk group than heterosexuals
etc.etc.
>: She is encouraging people to experiment >: with their sexuality and find
out who they really are, and not be forced to >: live under sexual
restraints that bigots and homophobes prescribe to the >: rest of society ,
which ultimately results in dissatisfaction/unhappiness.
> So unless we are free and uninhinbited with our sexuality, we will be
>unhappy... Oh please...
Yes. That's is exactly what I am saying. But you wouldn't know that because
you are probably one of those bigots who have made the rules stating how
*you* believe that people should Love and live (ie. that love is
only something that can exist between a man and a woman etc.) and that *
your* way is the only right way.
> And how can one "experiment with their sexuality" and not do it, eh??>And
do we have to do such an experiment to find out who we really are??
If you know that you are safe then why not? And in reply to the latter,
some people do but you wouldn't understand that because you are so close
minded.
>>This is a statement of ideology. This poster, and I believe most Madonna>
>fans by their statements during this flamewar, are basically saying that to>
>be a real person, to be who we are, we must be comfortable with [read:>
>experiment with] our sexuality.
Yes.
>How one can equate that not to a more open series of sexual encounters is
>beyond me.... And how can they call themselves fans of an AIDS activist
>when they and she advocate through her image things which no AIDS activist
>in their right mind would deal with??
I , fortunately enough, can see the truth in her messages about exploring
ones sexuality while still being resposible.
>For AIDS to be defeated, we must make all realize that they have to be
>careful in sex, and if that means a "Victorian-style" look to things, so be
>it.
In your "Victorian [Age]" sex was such a taboo thing that if a person had
been sexually abused, raped etc. they were too scared to say anything about
it for fear of public and family disapproval, and thus the resulting
psychological problems got worse and worse, *and the problem continued*. The
subject of sex must be something that people aren't afraid to talk about and
discussing sexual frankness (which Madonna is doing) is the only way that
people can actually start to be responsible. She is acknowledging that
people have sexual desires and that it is ok to experiment, but always be
safe. Why must you blame the AIDS epidemic on Madonna? AIDS existed before
she did.
>: She
>: is encouraging people to take *resposibilty for their own actions*, giving
>: them the *right to decide and freedom of speech*.
>The freedom of speech only exists until the government which grants it is
>threatened, Garth. If it got to the point where the government felt
>threatened by the music, it would be stopped.
You yourself have said that they have tried to arrest her. Therefore is she
or isn't she a threat? Maybe the fact that she hasn't been burnt at the
stake means that she is getting through to people, but old prejudices die
hard.
>I don't think there are that many people >willing to take said >
>responsibility, even in our age group.
*Don't try and make descisions for others*. I ,for one, have had enough of
that in South Africa (ie. the Apartheid system). If people are treated as
individuals who can take responsibility then they will take responsibility.
>In the age where sex is
>becoming more and more open in the media and the>youth of our nation are
>becoming less and less responsible,
And if sex was no longer something so secret would they no longer feel the
desire to experiment (which you believe leads to the AIDS epidemic)?
)we have a>disease out there that kills, >period.
Yes we do. But again, people *must* learn to take responsibility and be
treated as individuals who can take responsibility.
Garth
Richard Caley
mjf> Now, your success is usually in mathematically direct proportion to the
mjf> amount of skin you believably show.
Well, that explains Pavaroti:-).
--
r...@cogsci.ed.ac.uk _O_
|<
Richard Caley
In article <39cbpu$n...@uwm.edu> mfal...@alpha2.csd.uwm.edu (Michael John Falkner) writes:
mjf> I disagree, especially with the admitted impact Madonna has had on the
mjf> music landscape. Female artists didn't have to literally strip in their
mjf> work to be recognized, but now it's hard for a female musician to gain any
mjf> respect at all if she won't bare a little skin to back it up...
Tori Amos. Sinead O'Connor. Bjork. ...
There are any number of atrists who hit the charts easily with no skin
flashing.
mjf> You really think that in the age of MTV, a person's music actually means
mjf> anything anymore in the music business??
MTV is a minority interest. It's aimed at kiddies. If someone want's
to sell to kiddies, they can do the MTV thiong, but there's a lot more
money to be made selling to grown ups.
--
r...@cogsci.ed.ac.uk _O_
|<