FAQ: General ?'s, How to avoid getting ripped off
Oldie but a Goodie
Vinyl Collecting FAQ
The current version of this file is also available online at:
http://www.houseofmusic.com/faqmenu.htm
FAQ FOR THE VINYL AND CD COLLECTING AND MARKETPLACE NEWSGROUPS
PART I General Questions
PART II "How Can I Avoid Getting Ripped Off When Buying Vinyl on the
Internet"
G001 How much is my collection worth?
G002 I have a record/CD/tape with a drill hole/notch cut in the cover.
Why are records/CDs/tapes "cut out"?
G003 I have some items marked "Promotional - Not For Sale".Is it
really illegal to buy and sell these?
G004 I want to buy records from someone outside the US, but I don't
want to send cash -- how can I arrange payment?
CD Questions
C001 Is "CD Rot" for real? Some of my CDs are turning a bronze color.
What's going on?
C002 What was the first CD ever?
C003 I have a mispressed CD -- it's supposed to be by Artist X but it
plays a completely different album. Is it worth anything?
C004 Why is it illegal to rent CDs but legal to rent out videogame
CD-ROMs?
C005 Where does my money go when I buy a CD?
C006 What's the longest CD ever pressed?
Vinyl Questions
V001 What is an RCA "Shaded Dog" record? Why are they so valuable?
V002 What is a test pressing? Are they collectable?
V003 Why is the Caine Mutiny soundtrack worth ten thousand dollars or
more?
General Questions
G001 How much is my collection worth?
Any item has two values: how much someone is willing to pay for it,
and how much someone would have to pay before you'd be willing to
sell. Therefore the only people who can really determine the real
"price" of an item are the buyer and seller.
It may or may not help to consult a price guide. Guide authors use all
kinds of techniques to derive the prices they list, but they can't
take into account local supply and demand, market fluctuations brought
on by reissues or changes in people's tastes, or retailer whim. Supply
and demand always trumps the price guide. Some really high guide
prices are the highest price that item brought at auction somewhere;
just because there's one person crazy enough to pay that price for the
record doesn't mean you can expect to find another.
If you're trying to sell your collection to a dealer and expect him to
pay you guide price on it, forget it. Even if he can sell the records
again for those prices, he's typically only going to want to pay you
half that price for them -- otherwise he's not making any money in
selling them. You can almost always do better in selling your
collection to other collectors than in selling to a dealer, but then
you have to do all the work (writing up and placing ads, collecting
payment, packaging and shipping).
In other words, there's no simple answer to this question. You won't
know the answer unil you've sold it all and have time to count the
money in your pocket afterwards.
G002 I have a record/CD/tape with a drill hole/notch cut in the cover.
Why are records/CDs/tapes "cut out"?
The short answer: items are "cut out" (physically damaged in some
way)to prevent record shops from returning them to the labels for
credit. Itmes are marked as cutouts by slicing a notch or drilling a
hole in a corner of the sleeve or jewel box.
The term "cutouts" generically refers to discontinued or overstock
items that were marked as cutouts by the record label, then sold in
bulk to a cutout distributor. The cutout distributor then sells them
(usually in "grab bag" form -- pay a flat price per unit, you don't
get to choose what you get) to record stores, who sell them on the
cheap. Artists don't get royalties on these sales, which is part of
why they can be let go for so little.
To confuse things slightly, some labels will mark promo releases in
the same way they mark cutouts -- by notching or drilling the case --
instead of using a "For Promotional Release Only" stamp or sticker. If
you run across a "cutout" of something that's been released in the
last couple of months, it's really a promo. Some promo CDs have a hole
punched (not drilled) in the UPC code on the tray insert, but leave
the jewel case intact. In general, ragged drill holes or slices mark
cutouts, and "clean" punch holes, clipped corners, etc. mark promos.
G003 I have some items marked "Promotional - Not For Sale".
Is it really illegal to buy and sell these?
No. The record companies will occasionally rattle their sabres on this
issue but in fact they have no legal power to prevent people from
buying and selling marked promos. In fact, they are well aware that
most of the promos they issue end up being sold in the open market
sooner or later, and often will send out "collectable" promos in bulk
as a sort of bribe to encourage record shops and radio stations to
push their product. The "Must Be Returned To The Record Company On
Demand" wording of some promo labels is meaningless; no record company
has ever issued the demand.
G004 I want to buy records from someone outside the US, but I don't
want to send cash -- how can I arrange payment?
Check with your bank first. Most major banks should have a department
or office that can issue checks for you in the currency of your
choice.
Unfortunately, in some areas this service is extremely expensive or
simply unavailable. If you live in the US and have difficulty getting
international checks in your area, a company called Ruesch
International can issue a check in any denomination for a flat fee of
$2.00.
Ruesch International, Inc.
700 Eleventh St. NW
Washington. DC 20001-4507
800: (800) 424-2923
Tel: (202) 408-1200
Fax: (202) 408-1211
Call their 1-800 number and ask for the "international department".
Tell them you want an international check. They'll need the name of
the person you want it made out to, so have that ready when you call.
They will issue a check drawn on a bank in the country you're sending
it too, and will hold the check(s) until they recieve payment (you can
write them a check and mail it to them -- they *do not* take credit
cards). Ruesch is reliable, friendly, and cheap.
CD Questions
C001 Is "CD Rot" for real? Some of my CDs are turning a bronze color.
What's going on?
In general, no, "CD Rot" is not real. To date there is no evidence
that CDs, if properly manufactured and stored, will gradually become
unplayable. Unfortunately there have been several occasions where
*improperly* manufactured CDs have been sold to the public only to
self-destruct in some way later on.
One early problem occurred in the mid-to-late 1980s when a number of
CDs were labeled with an ink that eventually migrated through the
lacquer on the label side and caused the aluminum surface to lose its
reflectivity. The damage is immediately visible by looking at the data
side of the discs in question. These discs self-destructed very
quickly and were pressed in relatively small numbers, so you are
unlikely to run across any today.
The best-known problem is with a larger number of discs pressed
between 1989 and 1991 by Philips Data Optical (PDO) in the UK. Due to
errors in manufacturing, these discs are slowly turning a dark orange
or bronze color, primarily on the label side. This discoloration
gradually propagates from the outer edge of the CD towards the center,
and can eventually make such discs unplayable. If you have such a
disc, PDO will replace it for free. You can contact them at the
following address to arrange for the replacement:
Dave Wilson, Marketing Services Manager
PDO Discs Ltd. (UK)
Philips Road
Blackburn, Lancashire BB1 5RZ
United Kingdom
Tel: +44 254-52448
Fax: +44 254-54729
By all reports, PDO have been very accomodating in their response to
this problem.
There *is* a real phenomenon called "laser rot" that affects 12" video
laserdiscs, but it is caused by problems that occur when the two sides
of such a disc are glued together. CDs are one-sided so they are not
at risk for this particular problem.
C002 What was the first CD ever?
According to the "Tenth Anniversary of The CD" supplement to the 26
Sep 1992 issue of Billboard Magazine (thanks to Derek Nichols for
looking this up):
* October 1982: Billy Joel - 52nd St.
(First commercial CD released in Japan.)
* June 1983: 12 CBS titles, 15 Telarc titles, 30 Denon titles (First
US CD releases. All CDs sold in the US previously had been import
titles pressed for overseas labels. These were still
manufactured overseas, but for US labels.)
* August 1983: Polygram releases 100 titles in the US
* September 1984: Bruce Springsteen - Born In The USA (First CD
manufactured in the US.)
According to Clinton Heylin in his book Bootleg: The Secret History Of
The Other Recording Industry:
* 1987: The Beatles - Get Back acetate, BBC sessions, and Sessions
(Probably the first genuine bootleg CDs; a young entrepreneur
convinced the Technotronics pressing plant in Philadelphia that he
worked for EMI and needed these three CDs pressed in quantities of 500
each as "promos". They did it! He sold most of them for $100 each at
the 1987 Beatlefest.)
* Late 1987: Bob Dylan - The Gaslight Tapes (First "protection gap"
bootleg; i.e., an unauthorized release legal in some countries but not
in others because of differences in
international copyright laws.)
C003 I have a mispressed CD -- it's supposed to be by Artist X but it
plays a completely different album. Is it worth anything?
As mentioned elsewhere, any item is worth pretty much what you can
convince someone else to pay for it. At the moment, there doesn't seem
to be any real collector interest in mislabeled or mispackaged CDs --
among other reasons, they're far too common. In most cases you're
better off taking it back to the store for a new copy.
C004 Why is it illegal to rent out CDs but legal to rent out
CD-ROMs?
The law doesn't say anything about CDs per se, but rather about "sound
recordings" and "computer programs". The relevant section of US
copyright law is 17 USC 109:
[A person who owns a particular copy of a sound recording or computer
program is not allowed] for the purposes of direct or indirect
commercial advantage [to] dispose of, or authorize the
disposal of, the posession of that phonorecord or computer program
(including any tape, disk, or other medium embodying such program) by
rental, lease, or lending...
-- 17 USC 109 (b)(1)(A)
This subsection does not apply to [...] (ii) a computer program
embodied in or used in conjunction with a limited purpose computer
that is designed for playing video games and may be designed for other
purposes.
-- 17 USC 109 (b)(1)(B)
In other words:
* Renting out sound recordings is a violation.
* Renting out CD-ROMS for home computer systems is a violation.
* Renting out CD-ROMs for home videogame systems is not a violation
(there's a specific exemption).
The law prohibiting rental (17 USC 1101 as far as I can tell) applies
to sound recordings -- the format doesn't matter.
C005 Where does my money go when I buy a CD?
The Washington Post ran a report on this subject on February 15, 1995.
Based on information from the RIAA, Billboard Magazine, and elsewhere,
they broke down the $11.99 street price of a typical hit new-release
CD as follows:
$ 2.00 Record-label profit + Executive salaries
$ 1.40 New artist development
$ 1.15 Distribution
$ 1.10 Manufacturing (CD + artwork + jewel case)
$ .85 "Other"
$ .80 Performer royalties
$ .65 Songwriter royalties
$ .65 Advertising and promotion
$ .35 Producer
$ .30 Recording costs
$ .25 Music videos
$ .20 Managers and lawyers
$ .10 Artist pensions
------
$ 9.80 Wholesale cost to retailer
+
$ .95 Miscellaneous retailer expenses
$ .90 Store personnel salaries
$ .75 Rent
------
$12.40 Total cost to retailer
$11.99 CD price at retail
$ .41 Loss to retailer
These figures make it clear that everyone but the label is getting a
royal screwing. Label profit, salaries, distribution (usually
label-owned), manufacturing (label-owned again), and "other" (a.k.a.
"hookers and cocaine for the label VPs") add up to $6.50/disc -- or
more than half of a CD's retail price. The people who actually make
the music (the performers, songwriters, and producers) get less than a
third of that.
C006 What's the longest CD ever pressed?
To date, the longest CD reported is "Gridlock! CD-2", a DJ-only remix
compilation issued by the US DJ label Razormaid. This CD clocks in at
80:16. In future issues of this FAQ I'll try to list the next five or
ten runner-ups.
Vinyl Questions
V001 What is an RCA "Shaded Dog" record? Why are they so valuable?
RCA's "Shaded Dogs" are their LSC-series (Living Stereo Classical) LPs
from the late 1950s and early 1960s -- the term "shaded dog" refers to
the painting of Little Nipper on the label of these records, which has
a shaded background on a red label. This series was very exactingly
recorded and is in demand primarily among audiophiles who actually
want to listen to these excellent-sounding performances. The mere
presence of a "shaded dog" on the label doesn't automatically make it
valuable; since these are sought out for listening purposes, condition
is extremely important and some pressings (identified by the matrix
number in the runout groove) are in higher demand than others.
This is definitely a specialist's market. If you're interested in
dipping your toes, a book by Jonathan Valin called The Living Stereo
Bible describes the series in more detail.
V002 What is a test pressing? Are they collectable?
[David A. Pearlman answers:]
Test pressings were issued for many albums issued from the late '60's
through the early '80's. Typically, a small number (very rarely over a
few hundred, frequently fewer) test pressing copies of an album would
be pressed. These were obstensibly for use only by record company
personel, the artist, and/or for advanced promotion. The exact numbers
of test pressings issued varied both with the particular release and
with the label. By the mid '80's, the vinyl test pressing had
generally been replaced by advanced copies on cassette tape.
Test pressings are generally identical to their commercial
counterparts except that the label is different. In some cases, the
label will describe the contents. In most cases, it will simply list
the pressing plant where the test pressing was made. Most test
pressings were originally issued in generic white sleeves, usually
with a Xeroxed copy of the track listing, label information,
producer,publishers, etc. included. Over the years, these Xeroxed
information sheets tend to get lost, so many test pressings are found
without them.
Although most test pressings simply replicate commercially available
material, there are occasional test pressings which correspond to
music that was pulled from issue at the last minute (but after the
test pressings were distributed). These tend to be much more
desirable.
The value of test pressings vary widely. Test pressings for albums by
groups of little collectable interest can usually be obtained for
between $2-10. Test pressings for collectable artists/albums can cost
much more.
V003 Why is the Caine Mutiny soundtrack worth ten thousand dollars or
more?
The soundtrack album for the film The Caine Mutiny is extremely rare,
with possibly less than a dozen copies in circulation. The album was
pressed but never released; extant copies probably slipped out through
label executives and other label employees. Author and playwright
Herman Wouk explained the circumstances behind this release's scarcity
in the following letter to a collector, Mr. John Clark:
Dear Mr. Clark:
Here's the approximate story on LOC-1013 seen from a memory
perspective of a quarter of a century:
My play THE CAINE MUTINY COURTMARTIAL made a great hit on Broadway
while the film was still being completed. Columbia Pictures hastily
rushed out this record to cash in on the play's success. I never saw
the record or its slipcover, but I was warned that they intended to
feature the "courtmartial scene" from the picture soundtrack; the
shoddiest possible piggyback ride on my play.
I am a man of peace, but this annoyed me. I telephoned the brutal,
crafty, able head of Columbia Pictures, Harry Cohn, and warned him
that the issue of this record meant that Columbia Pictures would never
again have an opportunity to bid on one of my novels for filming. Cohn
looked into the matter, called me back, and said in his tough gravelly
voice, "I've got you beat on the legalities, but I've listened to the
record and it's no goddamn good, so I'm yanking it."
Thus was born your collector's item.
Cordially,
Herman Wouk (signed)
This document is Copyright 1995 by Ernie Longmire (Lazlo Nibble).
Permission is granted to download/print out/redistribute/establish WWW
links to this file provided it is unaltered, including credits and
copyright notice. Please ask for permission before publishing this
document(in print, off the Web, and/or for profit) or altering the
file for publishing on the Web.
Thanks to the following for help and suggestions:
David A. Pearlman <d...@vpharm.com>
Andrew Russ <end...@phys.psu.edu>
Jim Saxe <sa...@pa.dec.com>
Part II
How can I avoid getting ripped off when buying vinyl on the net?
Made possible by the contributions of the following:
backt...@aol.com (Tim at BackTrac Records)
pa...@houseofmusicoldies.com (Paula at Paula's House of Music) -
REMOVE "oldies" from address before emailing me!
Viny...@aol.com (Fred Walker)
vin...@panix.com (John Hall)
no...@cts.com (Norm Katuna)
rlda...@unity.ncsu.edu (Randy Darrrah)
to...@druuna.tky.hut.fi (Tomi Kause)
ste...@pluto.njcc.com (Steven Szep)
cyt...@ix.netcom.com (Susan Murray)
We hear too often accounts of unsuspecting buyers being taken for
$100s by unscrupulous individuals posing as dealers. If you follow the
suggestions below, your chances of getting ripped off will be greatly
reduced.
1) Before buying from someone who represents themselves as a record
dealer, ask for references -- and check them! This is the most
effective safeguard recommended.
2) Ask for opinions from the readership of rec.music. marketplace.
vinyl and/or rec.music.collecting.vinyl of the dealer you are
considering doing business with. Does the dealer come through with
good products in a reasonable amount of time after payment is
received? Are the records packaged and shipped with care?
3) Check the dealer's return policy and make sure that you may
return damaged or misgraded product within a reasonable amount of
time. Don't expect a dealer to accept returns weeks after the fact or
accept returns simply because you don't like the record you ordered.
The buyer has a resposibility to do his/her homework.
4) Dealers who regularly post are a safer bet than those who simply
lurk and respond to WTB (Want to Buy) advertisements. If you are
posting WTBs for pricey LPs or memorabilia, be particularly careful of
lurkers.
5) If you are the least uncertain about a dealer's authenticity, get
their phone number and speak to them. If the record in question is
expensive, ask the dealer to play it on the phone for you. Trust your
"bullshit-o-meter"!
6) Pay by credit card if possible. You have recourse with your
credit card company if you are defrauded. Remember, however, some
smaller dealers do not accept credit cards, and that fact does not
imply they are dishonest. Just be sure to follow 1 through 5 above.
Checks are easier to trace than money orders, and it is worth the
extra wait (usually a business week) for the check to clear. Tracing a
money order can be difficult.
7) Dealers who have permanent web pages or space provided by
"malls," are a safer bet than those who don't. Setting up shop on the
net indicates a degree of permanance and commitment.
8) ALWAYS send checks and money orders using the postal system,
rather than Federal Express or UPS overnight. You have recourse with
the postal inspector using the USPS; otherwise, you have none. And
never fall into the trap of using someone else's FedEx shipper number
to send funds. If you are in a hurry, then use Express Mail or pay by
credit card. Most credit card transactions clear
within 48 business hours. If a substantial sum is involved, spend
the extra $2 plus change and send the payment "certified mail, return
receipt requested." If you are outside of the US, please check with
your postal service for details on your country's laws covering postal
fraud. It is beyond the scope of this FAQ to cover every country's
postal regulations.
9) If you still have some doubts, ask that your package be shipped
COD, either with UPS (preferrable) or the USPS. Don't expect the
dealer, however, to pay the COD charges.
10) While there are many reputable dealers using America OnLine
(aol.com), AOL makes it very easy for anyone to hide behind "screen
names," and it is almost impossible to uncover the identity of an AOL
user. "Stars...@aol.com" is a known scam artist.
Shipping Considerations
After your've done your homework and feel confident you are doing
buisiness with a reputable dealer, then you need to ensure your
package arrives safely.
1) Always buy insurance when using the postal service. This small
investment (usually $0.75) is prudent. Don't assume the dealer will
automatically mail with insurance. Always specificy insured mail.
2) You can avoid the "I shipped it!" claim from a dealer (who may or
may not have done so) with a request for shipping with a "merchandise
receipt" from the postal service. The dealer will receive a card back
from the post office with a signature indicating who received the
package. This extra protection costs $1.20 and can be used with
international orders also. Alternatively, you can
have your package shipped UPS groundtrac. This option includes $100
of insurance and the ability to track the package. Expect to pay $5-$6
in shipping charges per order for these extras within the US. Most
dealers will ship international orders with the USPS as UPS simply
cannot compete in price.
3) Make sure your packages are being shipped in appropriate sized
mailers with pads. Mailers are a cost of doing business and a
professional dealer would never dream of not using one. 78 rpm records
must be shipped with additional protection in the form of shredded
paper, styrofoam peanuts or other packaging material. Air-popped
popcorn makes a cheap and enviromentally-friendly stuffing
between bundles of 78s!
Final caveat: There's really no recourse against dealers who have
not come through with a "bootleg" record. (The use of the term
'bootleg'implies a record which would be illegal to sell in the
country of origin because of copyright infringement or other reasons.)
By following the sage advice outlined above, your risk of being
ripped off when buying vinyl on the internet will be greatly reduced.
Thanks to all of the regular contributors to r.m.c.v. whose ideas have
made this FAQ possible.
Copyright 1996 Susan Murray. This FAQ may be freely distributed
without modification. Additions, corrections and comments may be sent
to cyt...@ix.netcom.com.
--- Someone who thinks logically provides a nice contrast to the real world ---