While on the subject of Chet...
jazz...@hotmail.com
Music" is about to hit its second printing and should be available again
in bookstores. Some corrections and additions, but not a major revision.
Details from
(It can be ordered there as well.)
--
Jeff Helgesen
http://www.shout.net/~jmh/
Doc
> I'm told by Jeroen de Valk that his book "Chet Baker: His Life and
> Music" is about to hit its second printing and should be available again
> in bookstores. Some corrections and additions, but not a major revision.
I'm going to do some editorializing on this subject. Not a slam
against you or other Chet Baker fans, but assuming what I've read/seen
about this guy is accurate, I feel there's absolutely no value in
exploring his life any further.
I'm someone who eschews celebrity mongering as a rule, and certainly
in the case of those who are severely lacking as human beings. Anyone
who has kids and doesn't look after them is pretty close to the bottom
of the barrel in my book. Especially when his dereliction of
responsibility was wholly the result of his choices, what he valued.
Consumption of drugs over those he brought into the world.
I don't care what talent he ostensibly had, he was a messed up,
lowlife sack of shit. As near as I can tell, he was someone who simply
didn't see any particular reason to give a fuck. Reading more about
his various drug addict exploits seems like continuing to look into a
recently used public toilet. Same old shit, different flush.
As a musician, there may be some elements of interest, though I
suspect not as valuable as orthodoxy and hype would have us believe.
As a person he's not worthy of further consideration except perhaps as
an object lesson of what path not to take.
William Graham
Doc <docsa...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:f0c1bc20.03081...@posting.google.com...
I generally agree with this....There are a lot of things that happen in this
world that are a shame....It's a shame that Mozart didn't live to be 87
instead of 37, and have 16 children who all inherited his wonderful talent.
Its a shame that there are so many talented musicians and other artists that
never develop their talent beyond the, "play around" stage.....I think that
someone like Baker should be listened to, and enjoyed for what he produced,
and not for anything else. If you can get something out of his music, that's
fine, but to try to glorify his obviously f***** up life is just a waste of
time and energy, except to say, "What a shame that he wasted that wonderful
talent by spending so much time in a drug induced stupor".
jazz...@hotmail.com
>
> I'm going to do some editorializing on this subject. Not a slam
> against you or other Chet Baker fans, but assuming what I've read/seen
> about this guy is accurate, I feel there's absolutely no value in
> exploring his life any further.
You should write the publisher.
How do you feel about Bird?
Mark Bradley
>> As a musician, there may be some elements of interest, though I
> suspect not as valuable as orthodoxy and hype would have us believe.
> As a person he's not worthy of further consideration except perhaps as
> an object lesson of what path not to take.
So what you're saying is that one should shun any knowledge of his
life and music simply because you find his (admittadly sordid)
lifestyle not to your liking? In so doing the only person you're
punishing is yourself, because the fact remains, whether you're aware
of it or not, that he remains one of the greatest trumpet players of
all time. Don't you see the close-mindedness of what you're saying?
You're determined to not give his music a chance.
Does your reasonaing mean we also should dismiss and deam "not worthy
of consideration" all other unlikeable personalities who were great in
their field too? Like Stan Getz, Miles Davis, Charles Mingus, Charlie
Chaplin, Van Gogh, Ty Cobb, Pete Rose... Wynton (the list could go on
forever, depending on ones on strict set of whatever "worthy" is).
Of course there is a lot of sensationalism surrounding Chet's life--
such is modern culture that it is his sort of stuff that sells books,
movies, and makes the Biography Channel interesting. However one
should have the ability to put the hype into perspective appreciate
what desearves to be appreciated-- the artistry. When I spin a Chet
disc, and I find myself playing as much of his music as anybody, I
don't give a hang about his personal problems, although at times I do
wonder how someone so screwed up could play so beautifully-- all I
know is I'm listening to some mighty fine trumpet playing.
Doc
> So what you're saying is that one should shun any knowledge of his
> life and music simply because you find his (admittadly sordid)
> lifestyle not to your liking?
Did you read my post? What I said is what I said. Our society seems to
exhalt "celebrities" regardless of their actions. If he didn't play
trumpet, you'd say he was a junkie and a deadbeat. So, he played
trumpet. He was still a deadbeat junkie. I've heard enough about his
lifestyle, I've got way better ways to spend my time than exploring
the minutiae of who he conned, why he conned them, the idiot women who
were drawn to him (apparently indulged in a little wifebeating on the
side too), exactly which bathrooms he puked and passed out in, etc.
Who cares.
His music may be of mild further interest to me, his persona is not.
Hopefully sales of his music benefits his family.
> because the fact remains, whether you're aware
> of it or not, that he remains one of the greatest trumpet players of
> all time.
Well, it would seem you've certainly been convinced of this. "Whether
I know it or not"? I'm sure it makes you feel like one of the
cognoscenti to cast your pearls in such a manner.
He may have been of interest as a jazz stylist, as a trumpet player as
such, he wasn't shit. Extremely limited range, facility, power. In
Let's Get Lost, they show a clip from a movie he was in. He played
some, but they had to dub in a simple blues lick that had a bit more
gusto behind it, that was apparently beyond him to execute on camera.
It seems that a large part of his "style" resulted from the
limitations of his chops. To be honest, I don't see what was the big
deal about his singing. If it speaks to you, enjoy.
As per the preface to my previous post, I was editorializing. I hereby
grant you permission to take exception to my comments.
jazz...@hotmail.com
>
> Did you read my post? What I said is what I said. Our society seems to
> exhalt "celebrities" regardless of their actions. If he didn't play
> trumpet, you'd say he was a junkie and a deadbeat. So, he played
> trumpet. He was still a deadbeat junkie.
(And Harry James was a lush. Throwing out your collection yet? Didn't
think so.)
I don't think anyone's celebrating Baker's drug abuse nor his predeliction
for abusive relationships with women. The fact that they are part of his
life, and that they offer a very stark contrast to his music, makes for an
interesting literary juxtaposition.
I guess I'm not sure what the problem is.
How do you feel about Conrad Gozzo?
David C. Stephens
news:<a94cda4c.03081...@posting.google.com>...
>
>
as
> such, he wasn't shit. Extremely limited range, facility, power.
With all due respect, I think you're wrong.
Chet had great range, power and articulation in his early years. I heard him
on KNTU a few weeks ago and I was thinking, before they announced who it
was, "who is that, Ryan Kyser or one of several other great young players."
He was playing blazing bebop at warp speed, up it the higher reaches (no
screeches, but much above high-C) with absolute clarity and incredible
creativity. I thought it was cleaner than Dizzy at his early best, and
musically more mature than most of Dizzy's stuff from the '40s and '50s.
Relatively early on (like in his 30s), not unlike Miles, Chet seems to have
given up speed and range and focused more on beautiful ballads. I don't
think anyone can beat Chet with a ballad (not Brownie, or Hargrove -- my
current ballad favorite, or Wynton). Chet is a master and many other
non-trumpeters have transcribed his solos to incorporate in their arsenals.
Best regards,
Dave
jazz...@hotmail.com
>
> I don't
> think anyone can beat Chet with a ballad (not Brownie, or Hargrove -- my
> current ballad favorite, or Wynton).
Heresy! I'd much rather sound like Clifford than the others. But I guess
we live and die by our tastes.
For me, I can only take a couple of Chet's ballad interpretations before
nodding off. But I will say that I appreciate the concept of an
understated melody...
David C. Stephens
<jazz...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:bhrfn2$i6m$1...@roundup.shout.net...
> David C. Stephens <dcs...@swbell.net> wrote:
> >
> > I don't
> > think anyone can beat Chet with a ballad (not Brownie, or Hargrove -- my
> > current ballad favorite, or Wynton).
>
> Heresy! I'd much rather sound like Clifford than the others. But I guess
> we live and die by our tastes.
I don't plan on dieing over this. ;-)
I do love Clifford Brown with Strings. I just wish I could find a decent
remastering where the strings didn't sound so harsh and raspy.
Brownie surely was one of the two or three best bebop guys around. My God,
what if he'd lived a normal life span! It blows my mind to think how young
he was.
Dave
Doc
> Doc <docsa...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> (And Harry James was a lush. Throwing out your collection yet? Didn't
> think so.)
I had actually included something about HJ in my original rant but cut
it to keep the length down. But since you bring it up, he's worthy of
much the same scorn as I direct at Chet Baker and for the same
reasons. Had a talent for sure, but was apparently next to useless in
the ways that really counted - i.e. in relation to his family. All the
applause, all the public acclaim don't balance out the fact that he
was derelict in his primary responsibility and obligations. Pissed
away a fortune a bet at a time. Besides whatever strife it caused his
family, think of what could have been done with that money -
scholarships for aspiring musicians, etc. Instead, it ended up in some
mobster's pockets.
Reading the anecdote about him getting pissed because his band got
stuck in an obscure corner totally out of the limelight at Danny
Kaye's party, I couldn't help but think - yeah, I think that's a good
place for 'ya pal. It sounds as if he felt despondent at the end of
his life, I don't feel a bit of sympathy for him.
Apparently, famous people often make lousy parents. I had a brief
relationship with a daughter of someone who was among the most famous
people on the planet, someone who's deified by the press, fans etc.,
thought of as a "hero". I was utterly floored hearing some of the crap
that went on in their lives. Some of the most messed up bullshit you
ever heard of. And again, it didn't HAVE to be that way, they just
didn't bother to make the effort to make it otherwise.
Guess who?
David C. Stephens
research to see if I can find it. It was amazing. (It must be a recent remix
since the production was so clear).
Dave
"Guess who?" <brianda...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:74f77e5e.0308...@posting.google.com...
Doc
> Chet had great range, power and articulation in his early years.
"Great" range, power etc.? Pardon my incredulity, but could you point
me toward a Chet Baker recording that displayed this? You mean great,
or "passable especially compared to what he had later"? That movie I
referred to in another post in this thread was filmed when he was in
his so-called prime, and they had to dub in someone else playing a
lick for him. I suspect that wouldn't have been neccessary if he'd had
"great" range and power.
At any rate, the original comment was that Baker was "one of the
greatest trumpet players of all time", which is ridiculous hyperbole
IMO. Someone might make the argument that he was a great jazz stylist,
which is more subjective. But when you say someone is a great trumpet
player, as far as I'm concerned this suggests more overall command of
the instrument.
David C. Stephens
Even if he never had great range and power, that wouldn't disqualify him
from being listed as one of the greatest jazz trumpeters of all time. Miles
proved over and over that range and power had little to do with the
profoundness of the music.
Dave
"Doc" <docsa...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:f0c1bc20.03081...@posting.google.com...
jazz...@hotmail.com
>
> At any rate, the original comment was that Baker was "one of the
> greatest trumpet players of all time", which is ridiculous hyperbole
> IMO.
He's certainly one of the most influential.
> Someone might make the argument that he was a great jazz stylist,
> which is more subjective.
True, but I'm not sure you can make the argument that he wasn't a great
jazz stylist. He's certainly got an individual sound on the instrument,
which is more than you can say for most players.
> But when you say someone is a great trumpet
> player, as far as I'm concerned this suggests more overall command of
> the instrument.
I understand your point, though I'm hard pressed to apply
current commercial standards to players who came up playing small group
stuff during the 50s. People payed to hear him do exactly what he did,
exactly as he did it. Exploring the high register would have run counter
to his improvisational style.
He could play fast and had a gorgeous tone (see "Chet Baker Quartet
featuring Russ Freeman"), and even when periodontal (sp?) disease caused
him to lose most of the teeth that are important for trumpet playing, he
managed to rebuild his chops to the point where he could play
professionally, no small feat.
Regardless, I would submit that you measure the impact of a jazz trumpet
player by the way in which his style impacts the playing of others. NOT
by what kind of person they are, NOT what kind of physical mastery of the
horn, NOT by whether or not their music even speaks to you or not, NOT by
whether they used drugs or not.
nick hansinger
>
>
> player, as far as I'm concerned this suggests more overall command of
> the instrument.
Wow, what an incredibly narrow view you have. Tell me, what
benefit(s) do you find in listening and judging with such limited
criteria?
-Nick
David C. Stephens
"nick hansinger" <nhans...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:87a89876.03081...@posting.google.com...
The quote above is from Doc, not me. I think musicianship (making more
music) is way more important that chops, power and range.
Dave
nick hansinger
> news:<5Qa0b.472$Ac5.49...@newssvr30.news.prodigy.com>...
> > >
> > >
>
> The quote above is from Doc, not me. I think musicianship (making more
> music) is way more important that chops, power and range.
>
> Dave
Sorry for the misquote. My mistake.
Doc??
-nick
DHoff56012
>player by the way in which his style impacts the playing of others. NOT
>by what kind of person they are, NOT what kind of physical mastery of the
>horn, NOT by whether or not their music even speaks to you or not, NOT by
>whether they used drugs or not.
>
>--
>Jeff Helgesen
>http://www.shout.net/~jmh/
>
Or any artist. Hell, Jeff and I both worked for a guy like that. Musically
respected by everyone. Personally, well I'm not going to go there, but my
personal feelings for him aren't going to cause me to discount his value as an
artist.
Dave
markfromsf
proud to be a human being, do you discredit the art if the artist's
values don't agree with yours? There's a bronze plaque on the hotel
where chet died in Amsterdam.........It reads......."He will live on
in his music for anyone willing to listen and feel"
markfromsf
> Doc <docsa...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> > I'm going to do some editorializing on this subject. Not a slam
> > against you or other Chet Baker fans, but assuming what I've read/seen
> > about this guy is accurate, I feel there's absolutely no value in
> > exploring his life any further.
>
> You should write the publisher.
>
> How do you feel about Bird?
really....and Bird is just the tip of the iceburg. Don't even start
with the artists in the world's best museums, some of the authors of
the greatest literature, etc, etc, etc.....
John L. Worley Jr
seduced millions with his stark but beautiful renditions of jazz
standards. Regardless of the fact that he was a junkie, burned people
left and right and treated a whole lot of people terribly, he made a
major contribution to the art form Jazz. He might not have had the
range, total command of all of the possible registers on the horn but
what he managed to do with what he had was remarkable. Even more so,
being stoned on junk as he was for most of his playing career. I
couldn't have done it, could any of you?
I've read the books, seen the movies and can tell you that nothing
compares to have seen him live and weave his magic on the audience. If
you don't like Chet and his tpt playing/singing well that's ok. We
all don't have to like everything. My take on it is that it's too bad
if one cannot appreciate the beauty of what he bestold upon us for the
time he was with us. I saw him many times. Stoned and straight. I
saw him try to punch Maynard out in the mid 70's because Maynard
wouldn't let him sit in with the band at the Great American Music
Hall. I saw him at Garden City in Saratoga, CA playing on a borrowed
Bach tpt around the time the album "The Improvisor" was released and I
can honestly say I never heard him sound so great or for that matter,
anyone else at the time who had what he had to offer.
Say what you will about his habits, personal tragedies ect.... He
made a solid contribution to the art form JAZZ and nothing anyone can
say or argue will change that.
A die hard Chet fan,
John L. Worley Jr.
Doc
> not unlike Miles, Chet seems to have
> given up speed and range and focused more on beautiful ballads. I don't
> think anyone can beat Chet with a ballad
The point about ballads is one that's completely subjective, but as
for the first point, My personal theory is that both Baker & Miles
"gave up" speed and range for a variety of reasons that were purely
physical, not by choice. It just seems against the basic nature of
most trumpet players to simply forego high notes if they have them in
your pocket, unless they're forced to.
Baker had problems with his teeth as the result of both medical
problems and unfortunate social interactions. I'm guessing the
constant stream of chemicals didn't help.
On his best day I don't think Miles ever had truly great range. Simply
hitting the notes isn't enough. I've never thought much of Miles'
sound in general and certainly anything I've ever heard him play in
the high register (over high C or thereabouts) sounds brittle, thin
and tenuous to me, never with the solidity of any of a number of
players with truly strong chops. I don't think he ever truly had a
handle on his embouchure, and think he was only able to get up there
at all by forcing chops that weren't really prepared to do so, and at
some point they just folded and wouldn't respond to whatever artifices
he was employing to get high.
Yeah, I know he got into Juilliard, but I'd be really curious to hear
what his playing actually sounded like at that point. If anyone knows
of any recordings that exist of the teenage Miles playing legit, I'd
be very interested to hear them. Whatever he played in his audition,
I'll bet it wasn't the most demanding of literature and I'll also bet
he wasn't in the same universe as say the teenage Wynton.
His own encounters with "personalized pharmaceutical products" might
have played a role also.
jazz...@hotmail.com
>
> It just seems against the basic nature of
> most trumpet players to simply forego high notes if they have them in
> your pocket, unless they're forced to.
True of most trumpet players.
> Baker had problems with his teeth as the result of both medical
> problems and unfortunate social interactions. I'm guessing the
> constant stream of chemicals didn't help.
Could be. He may simply have failed to take care of his choppers.
> On his best day I don't think Miles ever had truly great range. Simply
> hitting the notes isn't enough. I've never thought much of Miles'
> sound in general and certainly anything I've ever heard him play in
> the high register (over high C or thereabouts) sounds brittle, thin
> and tenuous to me, never with the solidity of any of a number of
> players with truly strong chops.
There are some mighty recordings of Miles in Europe right before Coltrane
left his band where his Fs and F#s were very strong. I'm thinking of the
point in "Round Midnight" where the break before the double-time occurs
for the sax solo, where Miles made it his routine to nail 7-8 Fs in a row
(with an F# near the end) before resolving to a whole note F.
> I don't think he ever truly had a
> handle on his embouchure, and think he was only able to get up there
> at all by forcing chops that weren't really prepared to do so, and at
> some point they just folded and wouldn't respond to whatever artifices
> he was employing to get high.
Okay. So what you're saying is that he had a long way to go mechanically
before he'd be Wynton or Maurice or Bobby Shew or whatever.
Seems to me that makes the power of his (their) music that much more
significant.
Frankly, most strong jazz players are strong because they're concentrating
on note choice, not weightlifting.
> Yeah, I know he got into Juilliard, but I'd be really curious to hear
> what his playing actually sounded like at that point.
Miles was out of Julliard as fast as he got in, once he hit the 52nd
street scene and began playing with Bird, it was all over.
> I'll bet it wasn't the most demanding of literature and I'll also bet
> he wasn't in the same universe as say the teenage Wynton.
One might also say that Wynton isn't in the same universe with Miles. But
I don't think we're saying the same thing.
> His own encounters with "personalized pharmaceutical products" might
> have played a role also.
I doubt that. Miles' involvement early in life was with heroin, which
(if the quality of the drug is high) is actually a relatively clean drug
if you don't OD on it. And I think he'd kicked his habit by the mid
1950s. He did smoke Winstons, which probably didn't help his cause.
And, again, we're back to the subject of whether a player has to win the
iron man competition to be considered a great artist. Seems to me we've
been down this road before...?
Doc
> When you go to a museum and see art that's so wonderful, it makes you
> proud to be a human being, do you discredit the art if the artist's
> values don't agree with yours?
My original point was that I have less than -0- interest in hearing
any more about this guy's seedy, screwed up life. People seem to
elevate this bullshit into to some sort of quasi-religion just because
the person in question happened to be famous. Even if they're famous
for something extremely unsavory, such as Charles Manson, a waste of
protoplasm who's still alive only because of the screwed-up nature of
our judicial system. O.J. hacks two people to death and England's
Hasty Pudding club thought that made him of interest and paid him to
speak at one of their gatherings, and yukked it up with him too from
the snippets I saw on T.V., Jeezus, what the hell is wrong with
people...
If someone else has what you perceive as talent as an artist, why does
that make you "proud to be a human being"? Why does someone else
having a talent that you lack having any bearing on you?
Adolph Hitler was a painter and some might say he had talent. Charles
Manson wrote songs, even had one recorded by the Beach Boys. We'd all
be better off if neither of these people had ever existed. There are,
and will continue to be talented people. The world doesn't need
psychopaths.
Not equating Chet Baker with Hitler, but I'm similarly disinterested
in parting with any cash to hear more about his cesspool of a life.
> There's a bronze plaque on the hotel
> where chet died in Amsterdam.........It reads......."He will live on
> in his music for anyone willing to listen and feel"
When I first heard about this, it struck me as somewhat humorous if a
bit tacky/ghoulish. No doubt it hasn't hurt their business to have
had a celebrity do a balcony dive onto their sidewalk. Poetic words,
but in essence it's saying "Chet Baker landed here". I'm sure they can
show you the exact spot where his cranium broke his fall too. If he
had happened to croak in a public restroom, I wonder if they would
have put a plaque there?
Bill Atwood
(trimmed)
I saw him try to punch Maynard out in the mid 70's because Maynard
> wouldn't let him sit in with the band at the Great American Music
> Hall.
> John L. Worley Jr.
I can confirm John's story about Chet taking a swing at Maynard. I
was there too. It was in the basement of the club (in SFO) and Chet
was very drunk. Two or three guys grabbed Maynard, since he wasn't
happy at all and reacted to being swung at. A couple of guys helped
Chet up the stairs, and I guess he left after that. I didn't see him
again. Maynard was cool after a couple of minutes. I doubt he would
have thrashed Chet, but . . .
John, my son, how are ye?
Bill Atwood
Fort Worth
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jazz...@hotmail.com
End of story.
Guess who?
"David C. Stephens" <dcs...@swbell.net> wrote in message news:<dyp0b.688$5z7.37...@newssvr12.news.prodigy.com>...
William Graham
says, "George Washington vomited here"........
Doc <docsa...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:f0c1bc20.03082...@posting.google.com...
markfromsf
I suppose someone out there probably even agrees with you, but how
are you going to handle the moment when you hear a breathtakingly
beautiful fragment of music that touches you like little else has, and
you absolutely have to find out who it is because you NEED to hear it
again ...only to learn it was Chet Baker.......
John L. Worley Jr
Hi Bill,
I'm doing fine thank you. Your name comes up when guys like Fred
Berry, Tim Acosta and Larry Souza hang and reminise about the old SF
days. Scratch Ensemble ect. I'm doing a session with Fred tomorrow.
We're gonna lay down some horn parts on a John Lee Hooker tune w/ an
horn arrangement by Wayne Wallace at Fantasy. I'm sure you remember
that place. I still talk about the days when I saw you playing in
sections with Zane, Rigby, Jack Walrath ect. Plus the Cold Blood
recordings. I hope you are doing well and this email finds you in
good health, spirits and chops.
Take care,
John
Doc
>
> I suppose someone out there probably even agrees with you, but how
> are you going to handle the moment when you hear a breathtakingly
> beautiful fragment of music that touches you like little else has, and
> you absolutely have to find out who it is because you NEED to hear it
> again ...only to learn it was Chet Baker.......
Sounds like the makings of a moment in a Tom Hanks movie...
I never said I found his music unlistenable. I said that I don't go
along with the idea that his talent as a musician makes traits and
actions that would seem disdainful in anyone else somehow elevated to
a greater status that entitles him to special dispensation.
Greg Evans
> I never said I found his music unlistenable. I said that I don't go
> along with the idea that his talent as a musician makes traits and
> actions that would seem disdainful in anyone else somehow elevated to
> a greater status that entitles him to special dispensation.
Doc, dude, I don't think anyone here is claiming it does. What I've seen is
that you *appear* to be denigrating his musical output because of his
personal faults, and others appear to be defending the idea that his musical
output is good *despite* his personal faults. I don't recall seeing anyone
in this newsgroup glorify drug use. I do recall seeing lots of people say,
"Love his music; it's a shame about his lifestyle."
Can we drop this now, or do you wish to continue making yourselves dizzy
going 'round and 'round in circles?
David C. Stephens
samples. The most album likely is The Pacific Jazz Years, but just when he
seems like he's going to take the solo up, the sample ends (anyone here got
this boxed set?). Lot's of albums didn't have samples also. Still, the
weight of evidence (the dozens of samples I did hear) would say that Chet
rarely ventured above high-C. However, these Pacific Jazz cuts potentially
have Chet venturing into higher zones.
I'm certain that the announcer said that it was Chet Baker that I heard. The
reason I'm so certain, now that I recall the incident more clearly, was that
I was riding in a hotel-van in Minneapolis (not KNTU) and heard the cut on
the radio. The van driver was a known jazz lover that knew I play trumpet,
so I tried to predict the player. I guessed someone like Kyser and we both
fell out of our seats when the announcer said Chet! This doesn't mean that
the announcer didn't make a mistake. I've tried looking for Baker tributes
or something else that might clear this up.
Sorry for the confusion.
Dave
"Guess who?" <brianda...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:74f77e5e.0308...@posting.google.com...
still...@webtv.net
-Chet - cd that made me want to get my first trumpet. I was never
interested in trumpets before. His horn brought me and a lot others into
jazz. I have over a hundred of his cds. As far as the sordid details of
his life, that is what makes up the book by James Gavin. Gavins book
reads like the national Inquirer. The Jeroen de Valk book goes into the
music making. The cd recommendations has steered me right to the good
stuff. About Miles and Chet not playing high notes, in Miles
autobiography, he said that the middle and lower registers is where he
hears the music in his head. He said he doesnt hear a lot of high fast
notes and does not play them. About finding it funny that the hotel
where he died would put a plaque up, the hotel owners were not fans of
jazz, didnt know who he was, just a junkie falling from thier window, an
embarrassment to them. It took years of trying before they agreed to
allow it. so stop laughing and do some reading.
markfromsf
> >
> > I suppose someone out there probably even agrees with you, but how
> > are you going to handle the moment when you hear a breathtakingly
> > beautiful fragment of music that touches you like little else has, and
> > you absolutely have to find out who it is because you NEED to hear it
> > again ...only to learn it was Chet Baker.......
>
> Sounds like the makings of a moment in a Tom Hanks movie...
>
exactly what happened to millions of people... I am done.
Doc
I'd really like to find whoever's responsible for the cultural mind
control that results in people under about 30 prefacing every
statement with "dude", (in writing too apparently...) and strap them
to a rocket to some distant planet. To the EXTERIOR of the rocket that
is.
Go back and reread my original post, you've totally missed the
point....dude.
Greg Evans
> I'd really like to find whoever's responsible for the cultural mind
> control that results in people under about 30 prefacing every
> statement with "dude", (in writing too apparently...) and strap them
> to a rocket to some distant planet. To the EXTERIOR of the rocket that
> is.
My goodness, you DO like to complain, don't you? I was merely going for a
lighthearted, non-combative feel, and added the "dude" deliberately toward
that end. I'm over 40, by the way; but I'm doing my best to avoid turning
as a result into a crotchety old curmudgeon trying to practice cultural mind
control on young whippersnappers.
> Go back and reread my original post, you've totally missed the
> point....dude.
From your *original* post on this thread:
> I don't care what talent he ostensibly had, he was a messed up,
> lowlife sack of shit. ...
> As a musician, there may be some elements of interest, though
> I suspect not as valuable as orthodoxy and hype would have us
> believe.
Sounds to me (and, evidently, to most of the other participants in this
thread) like you're suggesting that because Chet Baker was a "lowlife", his
"ostensible" musical talent is also subject to unearned "hype" and somehow
"not as valuable" as some other (discerning, educated, experienced)
musicians consider it to be. Please correct me if I've totally missed your
point.
Better yet, don't bother. I'm tired of this pointless and repetitive
discussion. I apologize to all for contributing to the flames, and I won't
respond to any more posts on this subject. I'm just going to go relax with
some very enjoyable music...much of which was made by messed-up, alcoholic,
drug-using, and/or womanizing lowlifes. Dude.
Larry Smithee
>
> I'd really like to find whoever's responsible for the cultural mind
> control that results in people under about 30 prefacing every
> statement with "dude", (in writing too apparently...) and strap them
> to a rocket to some distant planet. To the EXTERIOR of the rocket that
> is.
Not trying to change the subject here but worse than
"dude" are those waiters in restuarants (although often young women)
who address everyone as "guys" (LOL).
Larry
Doc
> Sounds to me (and, evidently, to most of the other participants in this
> thread) like you're suggesting that because Chet Baker was a "lowlife", his
> "ostensible" musical talent is also subject to unearned "hype" and somehow
> "not as valuable" as some other (discerning, educated, experienced)
> musicians consider it to be. Please correct me if I've totally missed your
> point.
What you've missed is the distinction between denigrating someone and
questioning the kind of praise they receive. For example, I think the
world of Doc, would rather sound like him and have his chops than
anyone. However think it's ridiculous that he won all those Playboy
jazz polls when clearly there were far more capable jazz players.
I like Chet's playing. I remember the exact circumstances the first
time I heard one of his recordings. A high school classmates dad was a
former jazz muzician and jazz buff and played one of his old records
for me when he learned I played trumpet. It was interesting to hear
this different approach to the instrument.
However, in the interim, as my awareness has expanded, I realize there
were a lot of other players. Do you think for example, Chet Baker was
Jack Sheldon's equal? How long do you think Baker would have lasted
playing the ride chair in Kenton's orchestra, which would have
required him to be able to actually play with a section? I know Jack
says glowing things about CB and talks like he wasn't fit to walk on
the same ground, but I think he's clearly saying it to be PC. I know
who I'd rather listen to for any length of time.
Baker made good press because of his looks and the cloud of bullshit
around him. He got recorded a lot because people bought his albums.
Does that mean he's neccessarily the greatest player of his
generation? I'm not saying he couldn't play but I think that there was
an aura of hype that colored the regard he's been given.
David C. Stephens
news:<bi38fr$4skq9$1...@ID-159999.news.uni-berlin.de>...
>
> were a lot of other players. Do you think for example, Chet Baker was
> Jack Sheldon's equal? How long do you think Baker would have lasted
> playing the ride chair in Kenton's orchestra, which would have
> required him to be able to actually play with a section? I know Jack
> says glowing things about CB and talks like he wasn't fit to walk on
> the same ground, but I think he's clearly saying it to be PC. I know
> who I'd rather listen to for any length of time.
With all due respect, Jack can't hold a candle to Chet's trumpeting or
singing. I love Jack and he's great fun, but he's a derivative. Jack
rightfully gives credit where it's due. I have no doubt that he transcribed
more than a couple of Chet's solos and then made them his own. Jack hasn't
had the impact of Chet because he hasn't really plowed any new ground.
Playing those ballads and making them sound fresh and original is one of the
hardest challenges an instrumentalist can face. (BTW, I love Roy Hargrove's
ballad album from a year or two ago).
I understand that for most of his career Chet couldn't read music, so
rhetorically asking if he could hold down Kenton's ride chair is ridiculous
and irrelevant.
Best regards,
Dave
Robert DeSavage
<dcs...@swbell.net> wrote:
>I understand that for most of his career Chet couldn't read music, so
>rhetorically asking if he could hold down Kenton's ride chair is ridiculous
>and irrelevant.
>
>Best regards,
>
>Dave
>
Chet was in an official Army band during his military service years.
Needless to day, being able to sight read music is a requirement in
order to be considered.
jazz...@hotmail.com
Yes. And I love Jack Sheldon's playing, incidentally, and have probably
listened to more Jack Sheldon than Chet Baker.
> How long do you think Baker would have lasted
> playing the ride chair in Kenton's orchestra, which would have
> required him to be able to actually play with a section?
Hard to say. (He was playing on Sheldon's all-star big band album,
interestingly.) What does this have to do with anything? Plenty of small
group players didn't gird themselves to be great section players.
> I know Jack
> says glowing things about CB and talks like he wasn't fit to walk on
> the same ground, but I think he's clearly saying it to be PC.
Pure speculation, let's move on.
> I know
> who I'd rather listen to for any length of time.
Nobody's qualified to act as arbitor for your taste in music.
> Baker made good press because of his looks and the cloud of bullshit
> around him.
He also made some EXTREMELY excellent albums early in his career, played
with Charlie Parker, Gerry Mulligan, etc. I don't think they hired him
for his boyish good looks (I suppose I could be wrong).
> He got recorded a lot because people bought his albums.
Yes. This is the way the recording industry works, oddly enough. The
same can be said of Al Hirt, Harry James, and Doc Severinson.
> Does that mean he's neccessarily the greatest player of his
> generation?
No.
jazz...@hotmail.com
I'm not sure this isn't myth. He played in an Army dance band, and as
mentioned elsewhere in this thread, played with Mulligan's tentet and on
Jack Sheldon's all-star big band album.
Doc
> What you've missed is the distinction between denigrating someone and
> questioning the kind of praise they receive.
Of course I was definitely denigrating his lifestyle choices.
Doc
>
> With all due respect, Jack can't hold a candle to Chet's trumpeting or
> singing.
Oh yeah? Oh yeah? Did Chet Baker ever do Grammar Rock?
That should tell you something right there....
;-)
Guess who?
described. He does bop like mad. Which tune did you hear the sample
of? Not like it would hurt to listen to the whole set. I know that
it isn't CD #2 because I had that one on my alarm clock for months.
It is a great set.
Now I have Elvis Crespo to wake me up in the morning. No chance of
sleeping through that.
"David C. Stephens" <dcs...@swbell.net> wrote in message news:<UG51b.2157$lT2....@newssvr23.news.prodigy.com>...
Gary Hogan
play like him.
In regard to his failed character, let him who is without any
cracked notes, cast the first cup mute.
No takers? Then shut up.
David C. Stephens
that eliminates about 80% of Chet's output.
Dave
"Guess who?" <brianda...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:74f77e5e.03082...@posting.google.com...
John L. Worley Jr
> David C. Stephens <dcs...@swbell.net> wrote:
> >
> > I understand that for most of his career Chet couldn't read music,
>
> I'm not sure this isn't myth. He played in an Army dance band, and as
> mentioned elsewhere in this thread, played with Mulligan's tentet and on
> Jack Sheldon's all-star big band album.
I had a college teacher who was in the 6th Army band with Chet and I
remember him saying that Chet couldn't music. Herb Alpert was in the
same band.
He also used a couple of excuses to get himself honorably discharged
like being gay (not true)and not being able to defecate in the mens
restroom with the other guys. To make his point, he used to crap in
the bushes.
On the allstar session Jack was the one playing the high notes in his
solos (if I remember correctly). From what I've heard, the highest
note Chet ever played live or recorded was a "D" above high C.
But you never know! I took a couple of lessons from Woody Shaw back
in "76" and on my tpt (Schilke M2) he played lines and scales up to
double C!!! Shocked the hell outta me. He also got the same sound
I'd always heard in my mind about how I wanted to sound when I grew
up. Who would have guessed judging by his recordings that Woody could
or have facility beyond a F above high C.
Dudes, how many of you are into Don Fagerquist or Tony Fruscella?
John L. Worley Jr
ps. I think "dude" is much better than being called "Dog". First time
anyone called me dog took me by surprise. But, every generation has
it's slang eh? Later on
Dave Lee
>remember him saying that Chet couldn't music. Herb Alpert was in the
>same band.
I find this interesting. If only this could be authenticated.
Dave Lee
jazz...@hotmail.com
Fagerquist is great. I have a bunch of his stuff transcribed at
http://www.shout.net/~jmh/fagerquist/transcriptions.htm
Interesting insight about Chet. I guess my point was that him playing the
only other trumpet book on Sheldon's date would suggest that he could read
something. Or he had great ears, which of course would be easy to
believe.
--
Jeff Helgesen
http://www.shout.net/~jmh/
Gary Hogan
played!.
He and Don Joseph were my favorite jazz trumpet players at that
time.
Once Tony said to me, " Man, you gotta LOVE your horn! "
Good advice.
Mike TERRY
attention to him until recently. I began collecting some of his
recordings, and only realized what I had been missing. Such artistry!
So far, I haven't disagreed with anything Chet played, which is a far
cry from Miles.
While Miles was trying so desperately to be "Mr. Cool", Chet was already
there and back.
But, the big difference is in Chet's "warm" cool versus Mile's' "frigid"
cool. I gotta admit, I was never moved by Miles' playing. But with Chet,
there's something which affects both your heart and soul.
Mike Terry
jazz...@hotmail.com
>
> While Miles was trying so desperately to be "Mr. Cool", Chet was already
> there and back.
I'm not sure that Miles was "desperately trying" to be anything at
all. Chet was considered derivative of Miles in alot of circles when he
first came on the scene in the early '50s (the "Birth of the Cool" sides,
which are largely considered to be the seminal recordings from which the
West Coast approach germinated, came from the late '40s).
> But, the big difference is in Chet's "warm" cool versus Mile's' "frigid"
> cool.
Thus the word "cool". Not really sure what "warm cool" is. Chet's
approach was melodic and voicelike (like many jazz musicians, he plays the
way he sings).
> I gotta admit, I was never moved by Miles' playing. But with Chet,
> there's something which affects both your heart and soul.
Some folks get more connection to the melodic approach. I always
considered Miles' playing, especially the late 50s through mid-60s, to be
ALOT deeper. (Though I like both.) To each his/her own, I guess.
JoeGuy
advantage? eveery one knows that he played mostly by ear, and i wonder if he
was able to feel his way around better on a martin. i've tried a holton, and
a benge, that were so easy to play; they practically played themselves. i
believe tis is the case with committees. that's why they were so popular.
any thoughts?
"Doc" <docsa...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:f0c1bc20.03081...@posting.google.com...
> "David C. Stephens" <dcs...@swbell.net> wrote in message
news:<5Qa0b.472$Ac5.49...@newssvr30.news.prodigy.com>...
>
>
> > Chet had great range, power and articulation in his early years.
>
> "Great" range, power etc.? Pardon my incredulity, but could you point
> me toward a Chet Baker recording that displayed this? You mean great,
> or "passable especially compared to what he had later"? That movie I
> referred to in another post in this thread was filmed when he was in
> his so-called prime, and they had to dub in someone else playing a
> lick for him. I suspect that wouldn't have been neccessary if he'd had
> "great" range and power.
>
> At any rate, the original comment was that Baker was "one of the
> greatest trumpet players of all time", which is ridiculous hyperbole
> IMO. Someone might make the argument that he was a great jazz stylist,
> which is more subjective. But when you say someone is a great trumpet
> player, as far as I'm concerned this suggests more overall command of
> the instrument.
jazz...@hotmail.com
they're doing. When Chet was playing a Martin, he was playing alot of
bebop and fast west coast stuff.
The valves are very fast on the committee, that helps.
The pitch is not very rigid. This drives players who rely on this kind of
thing nuts, but if you are a player who likes to bend pitches like Baker,
Don Fagerquist, Kenny Dorham, etc. liked to do, it gives you extra
flexibility. You can also get a REALLY centered, no-vibrato sound a la
Miles with the right setup.
For my own part, in order to get this kind of edge on a committee, I have
to play a pretty deep mouthpiece. I don't know much about the Heim that
Miles played (except that it was supposedly a symphonic piece), but most
played a Bach C cup of their chosen diameter. If I play anything smaller,
the horn starts to skate on me a bit. (This is certainly more a
characteristic of my approach than of the horn itself.)
The bell is heavy. The horn has a reverse lead pipe. Read into those
what you will.
Note that Chet didn't play a committee throughout his career (most folks
didn't, again, this may tell you something). Blue Mitchell switched to
Olds in the 60s, Chet would pick up what he needed after unloading his
previous horn, Maynard played a Conn later and then Holton, etc. etc.
The old Martins are nice vintage horns, but there's no magic there, IMO.
JoeGuy <johnsh...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
> what i wonder is was it the martin comittee horn that gave chet an
> advantage? eveery one knows that he played mostly by ear, and i wonder if he
> was able to feel his way around better on a martin. i've tried a holton, and
> a benge, that were so easy to play; they practically played themselves. i
> believe tis is the case with committees. that's why they were so popular.
> any thoughts?
--
Jeff Helgesen
http://www.shout.net/~jmh/
JoeGuy
bit
"Bill Atwood" <bpa...@swbell.net> wrote in message
news:90b9e29b.03082...@posting.google.com...
> jwor...@aol.com (John L. Worley Jr) wrote in message
news:<c85c96c9.03082...@posting.google.com>...
> (trimmed)
> I saw him try to punch Maynard out in the mid 70's because Maynard
> > wouldn't let him sit in with the band at the Great American Music
> > Hall.
> (trimmed)
> > John L. Worley Jr.
>
> I can confirm John's story about Chet taking a swing at Maynard. I
> was there too. It was in the basement of the club (in SFO) and Chet
> was very drunk. Two or three guys grabbed Maynard, since he wasn't
> happy at all and reacted to being swung at. A couple of guys helped
> Chet up the stairs, and I guess he left after that. I didn't see him
> again. Maynard was cool after a couple of minutes. I doubt he would
> have thrashed Chet, but . . .
>
> John, my son, how are ye?
>
> Bill Atwood
> Fort Worth
DHoff56012
>believe tis is the case with committees. that's why they were so popular.
>any thoughts?
>
>
They definitely don't play themselves. In fact, I've found them extremely
stuffy. And in Chet's case, as most, I think it's not the plumbing, it's the
plumber.
David
Tommy T.
the Hein that Miles played. It is like a Bach 3C except that the cup is a
bit more V shaped than bowl shaped. The rim diameter, measured from high
point to high point, is the same as a 3C but the G1 rim rolls into the cup
more gradually.
I have read that Chet tuned up sharp and then played down, below the center
of the pitch. This created his characteristic sound and gave him a spot
from which he could lip the pitch up as easily as down. I tried this on a
Committee and found that it did, indeed, create a Chet-like sound.
Otherwise, I found the Committee to be very difficult to play in tune.
Miles generally was very conscious of pitch, played with good intonation and
demanded good intonation from his sidemen, evidence that the pitch problems
of the Committee can be overcome.
Tommy T.
JoeGuy
"Dave Lee" <dave...@aol.comspamnot> wrote in message
news:20030823203737...@mb-m06.aol.com...