markfro...@earthlink.net (markfromsf) wrote in message <news:284f6ebd.0308192054.7838b2b6@posting.google.com>... > When you go to a museum and see art that's so wonderful, it makes you > proud to be a human being, do you discredit the art if the artist's > values don't agree with yours?
My original point was that I have less than -0- interest in hearing any more about this guy's seedy, screwed up life. People seem to elevate this bullshit into to some sort of quasi-religion just because the person in question happened to be famous. Even if they're famous for something extremely unsavory, such as Charles Manson, a waste of protoplasm who's still alive only because of the screwed-up nature of our judicial system. O.J. hacks two people to death and England's Hasty Pudding club thought that made him of interest and paid him to speak at one of their gatherings, and yukked it up with him too from the snippets I saw on T.V., Jeezus, what the hell is wrong with people...
If someone else has what you perceive as talent as an artist, why does that make you "proud to be a human being"? Why does someone else having a talent that you lack having any bearing on you?
Adolph Hitler was a painter and some might say he had talent. Charles Manson wrote songs, even had one recorded by the Beach Boys. We'd all be better off if neither of these people had ever existed. There are, and will continue to be talented people. The world doesn't need psychopaths.
Not equating Chet Baker with Hitler, but I'm similarly disinterested in parting with any cash to hear more about his cesspool of a life.
> There's a bronze plaque on the hotel > where chet died in Amsterdam.........It reads......."He will live on > in his music for anyone willing to listen and feel"
When I first heard about this, it struck me as somewhat humorous if a bit tacky/ghoulish. No doubt it hasn't hurt their business to have had a celebrity do a balcony dive onto their sidewalk. Poetic words, but in essence it's saying "Chet Baker landed here". I'm sure they can show you the exact spot where his cranium broke his fall too. If he had happened to croak in a public restroom, I wonder if they would have put a plaque there?
> wouldn't let him sit in with the band at the Great American Music > Hall. (trimmed) > John L. Worley Jr.
I can confirm John's story about Chet taking a swing at Maynard. I was there too. It was in the basement of the club (in SFO) and Chet was very drunk. Two or three guys grabbed Maynard, since he wasn't happy at all and reacted to being swung at. A couple of guys helped Chet up the stairs, and I guess he left after that. I didn't see him again. Maynard was cool after a couple of minutes. I doubt he would have thrashed Chet, but . . .
> From: jworle...@aol.com (John L. Worley Jr) > Organization: http://groups.google.com/ > Newsgroups: rec.music.makers.trumpet > Date: 20 Aug 2003 02:16:55 -0700 > Subject: Re: While on the subject of Chet...
> Chet Baker was a "from the heart" trumpet player who influenced and > seduced millions with his stark but beautiful renditions of jazz > standards. Regardless of the fact that he was a junkie, burned people > left and right and treated a whole lot of people terribly, he made a > major contribution to the art form Jazz. He might not have had the > range, total command of all of the possible registers on the horn but > what he managed to do with what he had was remarkable. Even more so, > being stoned on junk as he was for most of his playing career. I > couldn't have done it, could any of you? > I've read the books, seen the movies and can tell you that nothing > compares to have seen him live and weave his magic on the audience. If > you don't like Chet and his tpt playing/singing well that's ok. We > all don't have to like everything. My take on it is that it's too bad > if one cannot appreciate the beauty of what he bestold upon us for the > time he was with us. I saw him many times. Stoned and straight. I > saw him try to punch Maynard out in the mid 70's because Maynard > wouldn't let him sit in with the band at the Great American Music > Hall. I saw him at Garden City in Saratoga, CA playing on a borrowed > Bach tpt around the time the album "The Improvisor" was released and I > can honestly say I never heard him sound so great or for that matter, > anyone else at the time who had what he had to offer. > Say what you will about his habits, personal tragedies ect.... He > made a solid contribution to the art form JAZZ and nothing anyone can > say or argue will change that. > A die hard Chet fan, > John L. Worley Jr.
> Sorry, I didn't get the name (they didn't announce it) BUT I'll do a little > research to see if I can find it. It was amazing. (It must be a recent remix > since the production was so clear).
> > > Chet had great range, power and articulation in his early years. I heard > him > > > on KNTU a few weeks ago and I was thinking, before they announced who it > > > was, "who is that, Ryan Kyser or one of several other great young > players." > > > He was playing blazing bebop at warp speed, up it the higher reaches (no > > > screeches, but much above high-C) with absolute clarity and incredible > > > creativity. I thought it was cleaner than Dizzy at his early best, and > > > musically more mature than most of Dizzy's stuff from the '40s and '50s.
> > When you go to a museum and see art that's so wonderful, it makes you > > proud to be a human being, do you discredit the art if the artist's > > values don't agree with yours?
> My original point was that I have less than -0- interest in hearing > any more about this guy's seedy, screwed up life. People seem to > elevate this bullshit into to some sort of quasi-religion just because > the person in question happened to be famous. Even if they're famous > for something extremely unsavory, such as Charles Manson, a waste of > protoplasm who's still alive only because of the screwed-up nature of > our judicial system. O.J. hacks two people to death and England's > Hasty Pudding club thought that made him of interest and paid him to > speak at one of their gatherings, and yukked it up with him too from > the snippets I saw on T.V., Jeezus, what the hell is wrong with > people...
> If someone else has what you perceive as talent as an artist, why does > that make you "proud to be a human being"? Why does someone else > having a talent that you lack having any bearing on you?
> Adolph Hitler was a painter and some might say he had talent. Charles > Manson wrote songs, even had one recorded by the Beach Boys. We'd all > be better off if neither of these people had ever existed. There are, > and will continue to be talented people. The world doesn't need > psychopaths.
> Not equating Chet Baker with Hitler, but I'm similarly disinterested > in parting with any cash to hear more about his cesspool of a life.
> > There's a bronze plaque on the hotel > > where chet died in Amsterdam.........It reads......."He will live on > > in his music for anyone willing to listen and feel"
> When I first heard about this, it struck me as somewhat humorous if a > bit tacky/ghoulish. No doubt it hasn't hurt their business to have > had a celebrity do a balcony dive onto their sidewalk. Poetic words, > but in essence it's saying "Chet Baker landed here". I'm sure they can > show you the exact spot where his cranium broke his fall too. If he > had happened to croak in a public restroom, I wonder if they would > have put a plaque there?
> > When you go to a museum and see art that's so wonderful, it makes you > > proud to be a human being, do you discredit the art if the artist's > > values don't agree with yours?
> My original point was that I have less than -0- interest in hearing > any more about this guy's seedy, screwed up life. People seem to > elevate this bullshit into to some sort of quasi-religion just because > the person in question happened to be famous. Even if they're famous > for something extremely unsavory, such as Charles Manson, a waste of > protoplasm who's still alive only because of the screwed-up nature of > our judicial system. O.J. hacks two people to death and England's > Hasty Pudding club thought that made him of interest and paid him to > speak at one of their gatherings, and yukked it up with him too from > the snippets I saw on T.V., Jeezus, what the hell is wrong with > people...
> If someone else has what you perceive as talent as an artist, why does > that make you "proud to be a human being"? Why does someone else > having a talent that you lack having any bearing on you?
> Adolph Hitler was a painter and some might say he had talent. Charles > Manson wrote songs, even had one recorded by the Beach Boys. We'd all > be better off if neither of these people had ever existed. There are, > and will continue to be talented people. The world doesn't need > psychopaths.
> Not equating Chet Baker with Hitler, but I'm similarly disinterested > in parting with any cash to hear more about his cesspool of a life.
> > There's a bronze plaque on the hotel > > where chet died in Amsterdam.........It reads......."He will live on > > in his music for anyone willing to listen and feel"
> When I first heard about this, it struck me as somewhat humorous if a > bit tacky/ghoulish.
No doubt it hasn't hurt their business to have
> had a celebrity do a balcony dive onto their sidewalk. Poetic words, > but in essence it's saying "Chet Baker landed here". I'm sure they can > show you the exact spot where his cranium broke his fall too. If he > had happened to croak in a public restroom, I wonder if they would > have put a plaque there?
I suppose someone out there probably even agrees with you, but how are you going to handle the moment when you hear a breathtakingly beautiful fragment of music that touches you like little else has, and you absolutely have to find out who it is because you NEED to hear it again ...only to learn it was Chet Baker.......
> I can confirm John's story about Chet taking a swing at Maynard. I > was there too. It was in the basement of the club (in SFO) and Chet > was very drunk. Two or three guys grabbed Maynard, since he wasn't > happy at all and reacted to being swung at. A couple of guys helped > Chet up the stairs, and I guess he left after that. I didn't see him > again. Maynard was cool after a couple of minutes. I doubt he would > have thrashed Chet, but . . .
> John, my son, how are ye?
> Bill Atwood > Fort Worth
Hi Bill, I'm doing fine thank you. Your name comes up when guys like Fred Berry, Tim Acosta and Larry Souza hang and reminise about the old SF days. Scratch Ensemble ect. I'm doing a session with Fred tomorrow. We're gonna lay down some horn parts on a John Lee Hooker tune w/ an horn arrangement by Wayne Wallace at Fantasy. I'm sure you remember that place. I still talk about the days when I saw you playing in sections with Zane, Rigby, Jack Walrath ect. Plus the Cold Blood recordings. I hope you are doing well and this email finds you in good health, spirits and chops. Take care, John
> I suppose someone out there probably even agrees with you, but how > are you going to handle the moment when you hear a breathtakingly > beautiful fragment of music that touches you like little else has, and > you absolutely have to find out who it is because you NEED to hear it > again ...only to learn it was Chet Baker.......
Sounds like the makings of a moment in a Tom Hanks movie...
I never said I found his music unlistenable. I said that I don't go along with the idea that his talent as a musician makes traits and actions that would seem disdainful in anyone else somehow elevated to a greater status that entitles him to special dispensation.
Doc wrote: > I never said I found his music unlistenable. I said that I don't go > along with the idea that his talent as a musician makes traits and > actions that would seem disdainful in anyone else somehow elevated to > a greater status that entitles him to special dispensation.
Doc, dude, I don't think anyone here is claiming it does. What I've seen is that you *appear* to be denigrating his musical output because of his personal faults, and others appear to be defending the idea that his musical output is good *despite* his personal faults. I don't recall seeing anyone in this newsgroup glorify drug use. I do recall seeing lots of people say, "Love his music; it's a shame about his lifestyle."
Can we drop this now, or do you wish to continue making yourselves dizzy going 'round and 'round in circles?
I searched through 235 Amazon listings and couldn't find it in the track samples. The most album likely is The Pacific Jazz Years, but just when he seems like he's going to take the solo up, the sample ends (anyone here got this boxed set?). Lot's of albums didn't have samples also. Still, the weight of evidence (the dozens of samples I did hear) would say that Chet rarely ventured above high-C. However, these Pacific Jazz cuts potentially have Chet venturing into higher zones.
I'm certain that the announcer said that it was Chet Baker that I heard. The reason I'm so certain, now that I recall the incident more clearly, was that I was riding in a hotel-van in Minneapolis (not KNTU) and heard the cut on the radio. The van driver was a known jazz lover that knew I play trumpet, so I tried to predict the player. I guessed someone like Kyser and we both fell out of our seats when the announcer said Chet! This doesn't mean that the announcer didn't make a mistake. I've tried looking for Baker tributes or something else that might clear this up.
Sorry for the confusion.
Dave
"Guess who?" <briandavidm...@comcast.net> wrote in message
> Did you get the name of the recording? I wanna hear this.
> > Chet had great range, power and articulation in his early years. I heard him > > on KNTU a few weeks ago and I was thinking, before they announced who it > > was, "who is that, Ryan Kyser or one of several other great young players." > > He was playing blazing bebop at warp speed, up it the higher reaches (no > > screeches, but much above high-C) with absolute clarity and incredible > > creativity. I thought it was cleaner than Dizzy at his early best, and > > musically more mature than most of Dizzy's stuff from the '40s and '50s.
just a few things, I owe a lot to Chet Baker, it was his playing on the -Chet - cd that made me want to get my first trumpet. I was never interested in trumpets before. His horn brought me and a lot others into jazz. I have over a hundred of his cds. As far as the sordid details of his life, that is what makes up the book by James Gavin. Gavins book reads like the national Inquirer. The Jeroen de Valk book goes into the music making. The cd recommendations has steered me right to the good stuff. About Miles and Chet not playing high notes, in Miles autobiography, he said that the middle and lower registers is where he hears the music in his head. He said he doesnt hear a lot of high fast notes and does not play them. About finding it funny that the hotel where he died would put a plaque up, the hotel owners were not fans of jazz, didnt know who he was, just a junkie falling from thier window, an embarrassment to them. It took years of trying before they agreed to allow it. so stop laughing and do some reading.
> > I suppose someone out there probably even agrees with you, but how > > are you going to handle the moment when you hear a breathtakingly > > beautiful fragment of music that touches you like little else has, and > > you absolutely have to find out who it is because you NEED to hear it > > again ...only to learn it was Chet Baker.......
> Sounds like the makings of a moment in a Tom Hanks movie...
It does, and now you're starting to get IT, because what I descibed is exactly what happened to millions of people... I am done.
I'd really like to find whoever's responsible for the cultural mind control that results in people under about 30 prefacing every statement with "dude", (in writing too apparently...) and strap them to a rocket to some distant planet. To the EXTERIOR of the rocket that is.
Go back and reread my original post, you've totally missed the point....dude.
Doc wrote: > I'd really like to find whoever's responsible for the cultural mind > control that results in people under about 30 prefacing every > statement with "dude", (in writing too apparently...) and strap them > to a rocket to some distant planet. To the EXTERIOR of the rocket that > is.
My goodness, you DO like to complain, don't you? I was merely going for a lighthearted, non-combative feel, and added the "dude" deliberately toward that end. I'm over 40, by the way; but I'm doing my best to avoid turning as a result into a crotchety old curmudgeon trying to practice cultural mind control on young whippersnappers.
> Go back and reread my original post, you've totally missed the > point....dude.
From your *original* post on this thread:
> I don't care what talent he ostensibly had, he was a messed up, > lowlife sack of shit. ... > As a musician, there may be some elements of interest, though > I suspect not as valuable as orthodoxy and hype would have us > believe.
Sounds to me (and, evidently, to most of the other participants in this thread) like you're suggesting that because Chet Baker was a "lowlife", his "ostensible" musical talent is also subject to unearned "hype" and somehow "not as valuable" as some other (discerning, educated, experienced) musicians consider it to be. Please correct me if I've totally missed your point.
Better yet, don't bother. I'm tired of this pointless and repetitive discussion. I apologize to all for contributing to the flames, and I won't respond to any more posts on this subject. I'm just going to go relax with some very enjoyable music...much of which was made by messed-up, alcoholic, drug-using, and/or womanizing lowlifes. Dude.
> I'd really like to find whoever's responsible for the cultural mind > control that results in people under about 30 prefacing every > statement with "dude", (in writing too apparently...) and strap them > to a rocket to some distant planet. To the EXTERIOR of the rocket that > is.
Not trying to change the subject here but worse than "dude" are those waiters in restuarants (although often young women) who address everyone as "guys" (LOL). Larry
"Greg Evans" <mist...@larkbooks.com> wrote in message <news:bi38fr$4skq9$1@ID-159999.news.uni-berlin.de>... > Sounds to me (and, evidently, to most of the other participants in this > thread) like you're suggesting that because Chet Baker was a "lowlife", his > "ostensible" musical talent is also subject to unearned "hype" and somehow > "not as valuable" as some other (discerning, educated, experienced) > musicians consider it to be. Please correct me if I've totally missed your > point.
What you've missed is the distinction between denigrating someone and questioning the kind of praise they receive. For example, I think the world of Doc, would rather sound like him and have his chops than anyone. However think it's ridiculous that he won all those Playboy jazz polls when clearly there were far more capable jazz players.
I like Chet's playing. I remember the exact circumstances the first time I heard one of his recordings. A high school classmates dad was a former jazz muzician and jazz buff and played one of his old records for me when he learned I played trumpet. It was interesting to hear this different approach to the instrument.
However, in the interim, as my awareness has expanded, I realize there were a lot of other players. Do you think for example, Chet Baker was Jack Sheldon's equal? How long do you think Baker would have lasted playing the ride chair in Kenton's orchestra, which would have required him to be able to actually play with a section? I know Jack says glowing things about CB and talks like he wasn't fit to walk on the same ground, but I think he's clearly saying it to be PC. I know who I'd rather listen to for any length of time.
Baker made good press because of his looks and the cloud of bullshit around him. He got recorded a lot because people bought his albums. Does that mean he's neccessarily the greatest player of his generation? I'm not saying he couldn't play but I think that there was an aura of hype that colored the regard he's been given.
> However, in the interim, as my awareness has expanded, I realize there > were a lot of other players. Do you think for example, Chet Baker was > Jack Sheldon's equal? How long do you think Baker would have lasted > playing the ride chair in Kenton's orchestra, which would have > required him to be able to actually play with a section? I know Jack > says glowing things about CB and talks like he wasn't fit to walk on > the same ground, but I think he's clearly saying it to be PC. I know > who I'd rather listen to for any length of time.
With all due respect, Jack can't hold a candle to Chet's trumpeting or singing. I love Jack and he's great fun, but he's a derivative. Jack rightfully gives credit where it's due. I have no doubt that he transcribed more than a couple of Chet's solos and then made them his own. Jack hasn't had the impact of Chet because he hasn't really plowed any new ground. Playing those ballads and making them sound fresh and original is one of the hardest challenges an instrumentalist can face. (BTW, I love Roy Hargrove's ballad album from a year or two ago).
I understand that for most of his career Chet couldn't read music, so rhetorically asking if he could hold down Kenton's ride chair is ridiculous and irrelevant.
On Fri, 22 Aug 2003 12:27:35 GMT, "David C. Stephens"
<dcs...@swbell.net> wrote: >I understand that for most of his career Chet couldn't read music, so >rhetorically asking if he could hold down Kenton's ride chair is ridiculous >and irrelevant.
>Best regards,
>Dave
Chet was in an official Army band during his military service years. Needless to day, being able to sight read music is a requirement in order to be considered.
> Do you think for example, Chet Baker was Jack Sheldon's equal?
Yes. And I love Jack Sheldon's playing, incidentally, and have probably listened to more Jack Sheldon than Chet Baker.
> How long do you think Baker would have lasted > playing the ride chair in Kenton's orchestra, which would have > required him to be able to actually play with a section?
Hard to say. (He was playing on Sheldon's all-star big band album, interestingly.) What does this have to do with anything? Plenty of small group players didn't gird themselves to be great section players.
> I know Jack > says glowing things about CB and talks like he wasn't fit to walk on > the same ground, but I think he's clearly saying it to be PC.
Pure speculation, let's move on.
> I know > who I'd rather listen to for any length of time.
Nobody's qualified to act as arbitor for your taste in music.
> Baker made good press because of his looks and the cloud of bullshit > around him.
He also made some EXTREMELY excellent albums early in his career, played with Charlie Parker, Gerry Mulligan, etc. I don't think they hired him for his boyish good looks (I suppose I could be wrong).
> He got recorded a lot because people bought his albums.
Yes. This is the way the recording industry works, oddly enough. The same can be said of Al Hirt, Harry James, and Doc Severinson.
> Does that mean he's neccessarily the greatest player of his > generation?
> I understand that for most of his career Chet couldn't read music,
I'm not sure this isn't myth. He played in an Army dance band, and as mentioned elsewhere in this thread, played with Mulligan's tentet and on Jack Sheldon's all-star big band album.
docsavag...@yahoo.com (Doc) wrote in message <news:f0c1bc20.0308211714.5dd3483b@posting.google.com>... > What you've missed is the distinction between denigrating someone and > questioning the kind of praise they receive.
Of course I was definitely denigrating his lifestyle choices.
I have that set. I don't recall any great sounding range as you described. He does bop like mad. Which tune did you hear the sample of? Not like it would hurt to listen to the whole set. I know that it isn't CD #2 because I had that one on my alarm clock for months. It is a great set.
Now I have Elvis Crespo to wake me up in the morning. No chance of sleeping through that.
> I searched through 235 Amazon listings and couldn't find it in the track > samples. The most album likely is The Pacific Jazz Years, but just when he > seems like he's going to take the solo up, the sample ends (anyone here got > this boxed set?). Lot's of albums didn't have samples also. Still, the > weight of evidence (the dozens of samples I did hear) would say that Chet > rarely ventured above high-C. However, these Pacific Jazz cuts potentially > have Chet venturing into higher zones.
It's really simple to test the validity of Chet's playing: try to play like him. In regard to his failed character, let him who is without any cracked notes, cast the first cup mute. No takers? Then shut up.
