The corners
Doug Hardie
> Wasn't there an old saying about letters? Something like "gotta send
> them to get them"?
> RR
I have heard for many years to "keep the corners in". I have presumed
the corners were those at the far ends of the mouth. However, I am not
so sure anymore. Recently I discovered that the portion of the top lip
that is either under the rim or just outside the rim seems to be more
important in that aspect. When I lose control of that section I lose
tone, note accuracy, range, and endurance. Basically everything goes
down the drain till I can take a quick break and reset. Which was that
saying referring to?
Randall Replogle
That if we started on-topic threads maybe we'd see that there is still
some life here.
RR
Carl Dershem
@news.lafn.org:
To me, "the corners" (that must be controlled) are where the lip meets
the side of the mouthpiece. Outside of the mouthpiece, not much
happens, and the more relaxed I keep that, the better my endurance and
control are.
cd
--
The difference between immorality and immortality is "T". I like Earl
Grey.
Jeff
>
> To me, "the corners" (that must be controlled) are where the lip meets
> the side of the mouthpiece. Outside of the mouthpiece, not much
> happens, and the more relaxed I keep that, the better my endurance and
> control are.
This is my read on this as well.
If you think of a cross or crosshair centered on where your aperture
forms, then the corners are the sides that form the East/West part of
the pucker that forms the pad of muscle that keeps your chops from
getting pinned by the mouthpiece.
If I stop thinking about generating that pad, I end up using pressure
to close down the aperture, which leads to endurance issues and
bruising.
LHI, III
across from (i.e., next to) the eye teeth while playing.
According to Philip Farcas' descriptions, balanced contractions of the
cheek, both orbicularis oris (upper and lower), and chin muscles, when
in the balanced state of muscle contraction (i.e., "the balance point"),
results in the mouth corners being set (i.e., held in one place). (Note
that Farcas did not advocate a smiling embouchure, as many claim. One
must read the entire section, "1. The Embouchure's Function." )
Furthermore, he claimed that his inquiries amongst other fine players of
all brass instrument types revealed that they agree that after strenuous
playing, it is the corners of their mouth that are the most tired.
That, as I understand it, is how "the corners" are set. Now, in my
experience, and having Farcas' model in mind, my corners are set to a
position closer to the center of my mouth than where they would reside
ordinarily when my lips are in repose (i.e., relaxed, not blowing,
talking, eating, etc.).
I don't know how one could focus to maintain control over the two
"corners" where the mouthpiece touches the lips. Perhaps, what's really
going on for those who say that there is where the real corners are is
that the mouth corners are actually behaving as described above,
resulting in a sensation that the corners at the mouthpiece are being
held in. I don't know. I've never tried to concentrate in that area.
Now for the standard disclaimer: Find a good teacher, one who has a
track record of working with young and older students alike; one who
understands that not everyone's mouth is built the same; one who has the
patience to diagnose problems and craft a solution; and one who is
familiar with (and tolerant of ) the various approaches to embouchure
formation and control.
Doug Hardie
Carl Dershem <der...@cox.net> wrote:
Thats been my recent experience also but for many years I had presumed
it meant the corners of the mouth. Nothing there seemed to do much.
Jeff
>
> I don't know how one could focus to maintain control over the two
> "corners" where the mouthpiece touches the lips. Perhaps, what's really
> going on for those who say that there is where the real corners are is
> that the mouth corners are actually behaving as described above,
> resulting in a sensation that the corners at the mouthpiece are being
> held in. I don't know. I've never tried to concentrate in that area.
My understanding is that you're effectively creating a tissue buffer
with the corners, but otherwise not "controlling" them. In other
words, setting up strong corners is a gross muscle function, while the
fine motor control is occurring in between the corners, where (in
theory) things are more relaxed.
I also think the concept of "corners" is misleading. When we set up
the embouchure effectively, we're actually drawing in tissue from all
sides. It's just that it seems there's more muscle involved in
supporting the embouchure laterally. Or maybe those muscles are
stronger and better able to set the tissue buffer...
Anyway...interesting discussion. I found that developing a more
informed concept of the corners really paid dividends in terms of
endurance.
John Kool
>> To me, "the corners" (that must be controlled) are where the lip meets
>> the side of the mouthpiece. Outside of the mouthpiece, not much
>> happens, and the more relaxed I keep that, the better my endurance and
>> control are.
>
> Thats been my recent experience also but for many years I had presumed
> it meant the corners of the mouth. Nothing there seemed to do much.
I used to have really tight corners of the physical lips.
But I also now agree that the term correctly refers to the muscles at
the rim.
The less tension in areas not necessary for tone production, the better.
Perhaps we should come up with a better term. Or differentiate between
corners of the embouchure and corners of the mouth.
P.S.
I prefer the usenet forum or Tpin mailing list to Trumpet Master or
Trumpet Herald because I can follow a thread, or just read everything
quickly.
Everything on the other forums is automatically threaded, so you have to
know what you are looking to find. or who you are looking to read.
Randall Replogle
I prefer usenet, too. Maybe because that was my first experience? I
subscribed to TPIN but can't seem to get excited about it. Yeah,
"corners" is misleading. How about "lateral points of mouthpiece contact" :)
Randy
Doc
> Borrowing from another posting:
>
> > Wasn't there an old saying about letters? Something like "gotta send
> > them to get them"?
> > RR
>
> I have heard for many years to "keep the corners in". I have presumed
> the corners were those at the far ends of the mouth.
I've always heard it referred to as the corners of the lips - i.e.
where the top and bottom lips hinge, I've also seen it referred to
that way in books. However I believe this to be one of the great
misleading tenets prominent in the orthodoxy of trumpet pedagogy.
It's an aspect of the embouchure that makes an obvious impression upon
casual observation but the firmness that happens to result in that
portion of the embouchure is only one component of a fairly complex
whole. I believe focusing on "the corners" as some central key to a
brass embouchure is a fallacy. There are endless ways you can keep
"firm corners" that don't help you create a functional trumpet
embouchure.
I used to take lessons from an old duffer who preached "corners". I
was a kid at the time and it took me a while to conclude he simply
didn't know what he was talking about and subsequent years of
rehabilitating my embouchure have only reinforced that conclusion. He
didn't even follow his own preaching, when he played his embouchure
looked nothing like his "demonstration of the proper way".
If anything, the formation of the corners follows from how the rest of
the embouchure functions, not vice versa. I don't think I've ever seen
a player where, when going from low to high, the so-called corners
stay the same. If you try to simply "keep firm corners", I think
you'll just get in your own way.
My .02