Imported Trumpets
Saxology
like the "old names" are importing horns so some of the inexpensive imports
must be pretty good now. How do I find these??
thanks!
Randall Replogle
Maybe this helps?
http://reviews.ebay.com/TRUMPETS-ON-EBAY-BEWARE_W0QQugidZ10000000001428974
http://www.reviewcentre.com/review425934.html
To be safe maybe just forget about them? Jupiter may be an exception. I
hear their quality has improved.
RR
Saxology
"Randall Replogle" <spamgo...@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:hebje3$5cp$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
My son, a trumpet player, just played an eastman and a jupiter. He though
the jupiter was much better but claimed that the eastmanm felt like it was
stamped out of some cheap sheet metal. I looked at Jinbao a few years ago
and they are still in business so maybe they have improved to a point where
it makes sense to entertain them?
Since the brand names are being made in korea and china .. and mexico, I
would bet some foreign horns are just fine. I am just not sure which ones.
I am willing to try some for the hell of it but I need to get a starting
place first...
thanks!
Jeff
endorsing them now, and has a model coming out early next year.
Bill Graham
"Saxology" <saxolo...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:kIedneODX5mZJZXW...@earthlink.com...
good store here in town, and they are selling the Jupiter brand now (for the
last year or so) because it has improved to the point where it is worth the
money you have to pay for it. But beware if you buy used models that may
have been made before they started to import the better stuff. WW&BW usually
avoids the crappier brands.
lil squirt
wrote:
Oh they do? I see many brands at wwbw.com like:
Prelude
Blessing (the new junkier one)
Stomvi Zenith
Weril Alpha
Fides
Amati
Etude
Kohlert
Brasswind
Barrington
........etc... and at great bargains! Starting at $70 something
bucks. It's a crap shoot out there with the names now. Some Chinese
made brands are actually pretty good. Even Yamaha now has a factory
in Indonesia. Go figure. Seems to me it's not WHERE it's made but
HOW it's made and of WHAT it's made. If you know what you're looking
for in an instrument then try them out and be happy with whatever name
is on it. I hear that some brands (for a few $$$ more) will put YOUR
name on it. I bet fewer Bach Strads would get stolen if they had the
name Elmer Fudd written on the bell.
More than just 2 cents worth but I couldn't let it go that wwbw.com is
pure as driven snow in the competitive market of selling Chinese junk.
ls
Bill Graham
"lil squirt" <tad...@goldenpond.com> wrote in message
news:c0bbh5ducfvqur60j...@4ax.com...
don't try to cheat you by passing off junk as good stuff. They do sell cheap
horns, and you will usually get what you pay for. After all, you can't
expect to get Shilke quality in a $399 horn. But if you are willing to
understand that cheap horns are production line made and not top quality
stuff, but you want to try one for it's weird value, WW&BW will sell you a
playable horn at a very cheap price. They will stand behind their stuff, and
take it back if you aren't satisfied with it.
Robert DeSavage
<tad...@goldenpond.com> wrote:
>On Sun, 22 Nov 2009 21:02:38 -0800, "Bill Graham" <we...@comcast.net>
>wrote:
...snipped...
>If you know what you're looking
>for in an instrument then try them out and be happy with whatever name
>is on it. I hear that some brands (for a few $$$ more) will put YOUR
>name on it. I bet fewer Bach Strads would get stolen if they had the
>name Elmer Fudd written on the bell.
>More than just 2 cents worth but I couldn't let it go that wwbw.com is
>pure as driven snow in the competitive market of selling Chinese junk.
>ls
>
That reminds me of my 1960s Navy S.O.M. days (and later) when a few MU
swabbos who needed a short time payday loan would try to pawn their
Navy issue instruments that were boldly engraved with "Property Of The
United States Navy". For sure, the pawn brokers would tell them to get
the hell out their shops and maybe call in the Shore Patrol if any
were nearby. If so, it wouldn't be long before their asses would be
grass and the Navy would be the lawn mower. 8-)
Bill Graham
"Robert DeSavage" <alle...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:755dh5haatmk3igs3...@4ax.com...
The Japanese "junk" of the 50's and 60's (my day) has turned into the
Toyota's, Sony's, Subaru's and Yamaha's of today. If you are half my age,
you will see the same thing happen to the Chinese, "junk" of today. Hell, I
may just see it myself. (I am 74)
Robert DeSavage
wrote:
Firstly, the paragraph with the 3 <<< marks was not originally written
by me. I merely used it as a reference where my reply to the original
post is preceded by 2 << marks and made no comments whatsoever about
Chinese "junk".
With that being said, I do agree with you about the advances that
Japan has made since the end of WW2 when all they made were those
laughable wind up toys that crapped the bed on the first wind. I do
have a Yamaha Z as well as driving a brand new Mitsubishi Eclipse. As
well, I have a recently manufactured Chinese Jupiter Flugel. Being
that we as human beings, no matter what our particular race might be,
all have equal potential to execute good quality. It's the fucking
politics that 'govern' the quality level. For sure, it's the fucking
politics here in the US of A that caused the decline where with the
exception of a few manufacturers, finding a well made horn is like
finding hens teeth. Once upon a time, Elkhart, Indiana was the mecca
of fine musical instruments.
And BTW - I'm 65 and have eye witnessed the transition from what was
Oriental shit to something more world class.
And backtracking to your taste in music, I'm of the old school as
well. My long time teacher / mentor insisted that I memorize at least
two standards each week. It paid off where over the years of playing
trumpet (55 years worth) I have committed to memory a thousand plus /
plus standards that afforded me a great deal of job / gig security
that helped put both of my daughters thru music colleges.
Bill Graham
The Chinese, like the Japanese are fast learners. I had a Chinese physicist
stay in my home for a few months about 30 years ago. (I used to rent rooms
to people who worked at the lab I worked at) He used to look for and buy the
cheapest junk you ever saw.....He bought a can opener for less than a dollar
that wouldn't open even one can without breaking into two pieces.....I had a
hell of a time getting him to understand that you had to optimize your
quality/price ratio in order to get a "good deal". But it didn't take him
long to adjust to this concept. And, it won't take the Chinese very long to
find out that we Americans will buy quality, and will refuse to buy junk no
matter how low the price. The many companies that sell junky horns today
will boil down to just a few that make and sell really fine instruments in
just a very short period of time. In the meantime, buy a few of them for
under $200 each......I bought a bass trumpet last year that had rotary
valves, is tuned in "C", and only cost me about $120 (as if remember) It is
amazingly good quality considering the price, and plays pretty well, except
that it is uncomfortable to hold. I have fun playing it from time to time.
It certainly is a lot better than what I expected for 120 bucks. I bet this
company will go far, and will emerge as one of the better Chinese instrument
manufacturers.
Saxology
> The Japanese "junk" of the 50's and 60's (my day) has turned into the
> Toyota's, Sony's, Subaru's and Yamaha's of today. If you are half my age,
> you will see the same thing happen to the Chinese, "junk" of today. Hell,
> I may just see it myself. (I am 74)
Exactly the point of my post. They must be getting better and better and I
am not a name dropping, brand loyaist. I realize that Bach is a cheap
Mexican horn and that Buffet is an H-K instrument company product. Only
true musicians believe that silver = better or that they can hear the grass
grow. So, they can buy the overpriced, poorly made, horns of yesteryear.
It is reasonable to take advantage of improving horn manufacturers in the
midst of the "old school brands" doing the exact same thing. The old time
instruments are the Edsels of tomorrow. I would like to get on the front
end of the new horns and find some that are "jewels". Inexpensive horns
(because of attractive labor rates and the latest modern tooling). They
will be better than what we have today. No reason to be blind!
-sax
Saxology
snip...
I bet this
> company will go far, and will emerge as one of the better Chinese
> instrument manufacturers.
who is it??
Bill Graham
guitar that sold new for around $400 that was very nicely made, and played
in good tune. The Mexican people are quite artistic, and are capable of
doing some very fine work, if they are decently paid and shown what is
wanted. Here again, the potential for good quality is there if we QC it and
pay for it.....
Bill Graham
a link to the horn and their website:
http://gosuperdvd.stores.yahoo.net/berkeleywind-c-3rotaryvalve-flugelhornfrench-post-hor.html
Bill Graham
"Bill Graham" <we...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:86CdnReazvnW4oXW...@giganews.com...
here is my circumstantial evidence:
Berkeleywind have this very special and Rare instruments.C Bass Flugelhorn
this beautiful instruments have a consistently deliver legendary sound.and
clarity response sound, with 3 Rotary Valves can provides an instrument of
legendary playability. this horn is between French horn and flugelhorn. we
call Post Horn.only French people play this bass horn. if any one know more
about what kinds horn or More information, please let me know and i can let
everybody know, because i look all over the internet,can't find anyone like
this. its Key C have very special sound.low register sound like baritone
horn but high pitch sound like Flugelhorn or French Horn.the mouthpiece is
close to Alto horn,
Yellow brass Bell
Yellow brass Body
Gold plated Finish
....:^)
Robert DeSavage
wrote:
Snipped
>I have no forensic evidence that these instruments were made in China, but
>here is my circumstantial evidence:
>
>Berkeleywind have this very special and Rare instruments.C Bass Flugelhorn
>this beautiful instruments have a consistently deliver legendary sound.and
>clarity response sound, with 3 Rotary Valves can provides an instrument of
>legendary playability. this horn is between French horn and flugelhorn. we
>call Post Horn.only French people play this bass horn. if any one know more
>about what kinds horn or More information, please let me know and i can let
>everybody know, because i look all over the internet,can't find anyone like
>this. its Key C have very special sound.low register sound like baritone
>horn but high pitch sound like Flugelhorn or French Horn.the mouthpiece is
>close to Alto horn,
>
>Yellow brass Bell
>Yellow brass Body
>Gold plated Finish
I'll bet my bottom silver dollar (90% silver 10% copper) that these
horns are NOT gold plated. Nowadays, you'd need to take out a second
mortgage on your house in order to afford it. I'll go out on a limb
here and probably get flamed for it by saying that the finish is gold
LACQUER. My Yammie Z didn't come cheap and it's finish is gold
lacquer. While it looks great on Jump Street, it's won't be long
before the finish deteriorates from perspiration. From what I've read
and listened to, a gold PLATED horn is silver plated first, followed
with gold plate on the surface which means big $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$.
As to the horns built in the thrilling days of Yesteryear, I'd kill to
be able to have an early sixties Olds Recording trumpet. It never gave
me one iota of trouble especially when I was on a sea going band in
the Navy. While the Navy issued Conn Connstellation (that's how Conn
spelled it) trumpets, I very rarely used it. After I was discharged in
1968, I bought a new Olds which couldn't hold a candle to my earlier
model. While the valves on the earlier Olds worked flawlessly, the
newer horn's valves sucked. No matter what I did to keep them in good
working order, they'd hang - always at a critical moment. I dare say
that it's because Olds and the other makes, started using monel
valves. While I feel safe in an aircraft 30K up in the air where monel
is used for many of it's moving parts, I sure as hell didn't feel at
all 'safe' playing a horn with monel valves on a two foot high band
stand. Along with being willing to kill for a 'vintage' Olds, I'd also
would kill to have an early Martin Committee, Reynolds Contempora,
Holton, Getzen Eterna, and yes a Mt. Vernon Bach. These horns are
venerable to many of us old fossils where we remain staunch about the
notion that they don't make them like they used to. However, I do hold
hope that you and Saxology are right. BTW - I understand that Stomvi
(made in Spain?) is no slouch. I can't leave without saying that I
love my Wild Thing (AMERICAN made by Kanstul and expertly tweaked by
Flip Oaks).
CHEERS and all that good kaka 8-)
Robert DeSavage
wrote:
SNIPPED
>Don't discount the Mexicans out of hand.....I had a Mexican made Fender
>guitar that sold new for around $400 that was very nicely made, and played
>in good tune. The Mexican people are quite artistic, and are capable of
>doing some very fine work, if they are decently paid and shown what is
>wanted. Here again, the potential for good quality is there if we QC it and
>pay for it.....
We all want the 'perfect horn'. Despite our wants, there's a fly in
the ointment that screws up any so called equation. Until such time as
'they' come out with the perfect HUMAN, that equation is a pipe dream
never to be.
Saxology
> As to the horns built in the thrilling days of Yesteryear, I'd kill to
> be able to have an early sixties Olds Recording trumpet. It never gave
> me one iota of trouble especially when I was on a sea going band in
> the Navy. While the Navy issued Conn Connstellation (that's how Conn
> spelled it) trumpets, I very rarely used it. After I was discharged in
> 1968, I bought a new Olds which couldn't hold a candle to my earlier
> model. While the valves on the earlier Olds worked flawlessly, the
> newer horn's valves sucked. No matter what I did to keep them in good
> working order, they'd hang - always at a critical moment. I dare say
> that it's because Olds and the other makes, started using monel
> valves. While I feel safe in an aircraft 30K up in the air where monel
> is used for many of it's moving parts, I sure as hell didn't feel at
> all 'safe' playing a horn with monel valves on a two foot high band
> stand. Along with being willing to kill for a 'vintage' Olds, I'd also
> would kill to have an early Martin Committee, Reynolds Contempora,
> Holton, Getzen Eterna, and yes a Mt. Vernon Bach. These horns are
> venerable to many of us old fossils where we remain staunch about the
> notion that they don't make them like they used to. However, I do hold
> hope that you and Saxology are right. BTW - I understand that Stomvi
> (made in Spain?) is no slouch. I can't leave without saying that I
> love my Wild Thing (AMERICAN made by Kanstul and expertly tweaked by
> Flip Oaks).
>
> CHEERS and all that good kaka 8-)
I would have to say that if I needed a new trumpet I would go to Flip Oaks.
Period. I have a Kanstul Flugelhorn and it is top notch.
That said, if you wanted a large bore Martin you missed your chance. The
MFHorn by Holton (the large bore model) was basically a large bore Martin.
Martin valve casing.... very nice horn and basically a Martin. The smaller
bore models were Holtons.
Just remember, the good old days is a sliding window..... don't get your
finger caught in it when it closes!
-sax
Saxology
What it comes down to is that too many inexperienced people in the
production will lower quality. As the standard of living improves in Chine
and time generates the experience, the horns will be there, count on it.
New mechanization will drive the quality up, just like it did in Japan
previously. There are a lot of people there so I am hopeful that there will
be a lot of good horns too.
-sax
Bill Graham
are a Billion Chinese making a hundred dollars a month, you don't have the
market for quality, and there won't be enough manufacturers of horns to
afford any competition anyway. But when their living standard improves, and
several horn makers emerge to compete for the market, then the quality will
improve and we will benefit. Back in Japan in the late 50's, (when I was
there) there were lots of bands playing American style music......I wonder
if the same thing is true in China today? Do they play our Western-style
music? It always helps when there is a local market for the
instruments.....The feedback is faster, and the quality improves
quicker......
Robert DeSavage
wrote:
>
>I would have to say that if I needed a new trumpet I would go to Flip Oaks.
>Period. I have a Kanstul Flugelhorn and it is top notch.
>
>That said, if you wanted a large bore Martin you missed your chance. The
>MFHorn by Holton (the large bore model) was basically a large bore Martin.
>Martin valve casing.... very nice horn and basically a Martin. The smaller
>bore models were Holtons.
>
>Just remember, the good old days is a sliding window..... don't get your
>finger caught in it when it closes!
>-sax
>
Thankfully Sax, I ain't worried at all about getting my finger caught
in that sliding window. At my age (65), I have everything I need and
want and then some. Advances in trumpet technology I hope will be of
benefit to those of the younger generation. But since I have no desire
or the energy to go out and play gigs, it really won't matter to me
one way or the other. I've had my fling with moderate success and am
at the point where enough is enough.
Although sometimes I feel like a 'traitor' for buying a Japanese
Mitsubishi, it is a good car for my needs (knock on wood) and WILL be
the last automobile I'll ever buy. But again - enough is enough where
I've more than subsidized the Oriental economy. As I said earlier, I
have all that I could ever want where I can go to the local mall with
a pocket full of money and leave the mall with a pocket full of money.
While the Orient is making remarkable strides in technology and
manufacturing, too much of their shit is littering the stores here in
the U.S. of A. and I'll thumb my nose at stores like Walmart. Of
course, with necessities such as clothing and of course computers, I
don't have too many options and take it with a grain of salt. In the
meantime, I'll do my best to buy American, however limited American
made products are available, But alas, if there's nothing 'American',
there's always available some good old American Kentucky distilled
Bourbon that at my age I will feel no consequences spending my cash
money (no credit cards used) on. For sure, they make it like they
always did.
In closing, please don't get me wrong. I wish no ill will to other
nations. However, with a tad over 10% unemployment rate here, it's
very difficult to wish these nations well.
Robert DeSavage
wrote:
>
>What it comes down to is that too many inexperienced people in the
>production will lower quality. As the standard of living improves in Chine
>and time generates the experience, the horns will be there, count on it.
>New mechanization will drive the quality up, just like it did in Japan
>previously. There are a lot of people there so I am hopeful that there will
>be a lot of good horns too.
>-sax
>
At the risk of being redundant, again I say that the concept of
wanting the ideal / perfect instrument is a moot point until such time
as the ideal / perfect human being pops out of the oven. Come what
may, a bad workman blames his tools where it's garbage in, garbage
out. Sadly, the Chinese and the Japanese are one step ahead of 'God'
(speaking as a card carrying agnostic) in that respect.
Bill Graham
bands. A community concert band, a jazz band spinoff of the CCB, and a "play
by ear only" senior citizens dance band. The dance band plays twice a week
for two hours each time. We have a lead trumpeter who is 85, and he plays in
all the bands I am in, plus a couple more.......
Robert DeSavage
wrote:
SNIPPED
>At only 65, you sure are quitting early.....I am 74, and play in three
>bands. A community concert band, a jazz band spinoff of the CCB, and a "play
>by ear only" senior citizens dance band. The dance band plays twice a week
>for two hours each time. We have a lead trumpeter who is 85, and he plays in
>all the bands I am in, plus a couple more.......
For declining health reasons - schleroderma. Loosing teeth, bad
digestive system, etc as a result. Can't let it ruin my life though. I
do toodle a bit every day on the horn and spend some extra time on my
vibes.
I'm pleased that you can still keep up. Nowadays I'm lucky to get it
up. We all have different physical characteristics and not humans
shaped out of a cookie cutter. If I let it all get me down, then it
will shorten my life. I still have much to do in life and count my
blessings for what is my past and my hopefully long remaining future
be it with trumpet or sans trumpet.
lil squirt
>>
>At only 65, you sure are quitting early.....I am 74, and play in three
>bands. A community concert band, a jazz band spinoff of the CCB, and a "play
>by ear only" senior citizens dance band. The dance band plays twice a week
>for two hours each time. We have a lead trumpeter who is 85, and he plays in
>all the bands I am in, plus a couple more.......
I would LOVE to hear that last group you mentioned if it's even
halfway good. All the "oldsters" I know who are still playing have a
LOT to give and show off with their improvs. If anybody can get over
themselves and just relax and LISTEN the older musicians have a lot to
offer. Besides, I make a good audience member -- I sit there and
enjoy whatever is coming my way and I don't bring my judgement book
along with me. It makes it so much more fun that way. Oh, just to
put it in perspectove, I've played around in a few orchestras and big
bands myself. I'm not a non-playing musician.
KUDOS to you and your groups!!
Bill Graham
Well, I hear ya.....I have a lot of trouble getting up every AM, and a
couple of my gigs take place at 9:00 AM in the morning. but I struggle to
keep up so I won't just sink into the oblivion of a couch potato TV watcher.
My diabetes is gradually making me go blind, and I know that I won't be able
to read music in a couple or three years, so I am working at developing my
ability to play counterpoint parts by ear. After a couple of years in the
dance band, I am getting pretty good at it. My goal is to be able to play a
passable counterpoint second line accompaniment to a melody that I have
never heard before. It's kind of like being able to play a bass guitar to a
strange melody.....Just sensing the chord changes the first chorus, and then
being able to extend the complexity to a good counterpoint melody the second
time the chorus comes around.
Bill Graham
This guy's name is Bob Schunke......He used to play in Rosemary Clooney's
orchestra, so he is an old pro. I am amazed at the number of pop songs he
knows, and his ability to play lead on all of them in any key. I love to
play counterpoint melodies when he is taking the lead, and he puts up with
me, so that makes me feel pretty good too....:^)
Jeff
>
> That said, if you wanted a large bore Martin you missed your chance. The
> MFHorn by Holton (the large bore model) was basically a large bore Martin.
> Martin valve casing.... very nice horn and basically a Martin. The smaller
> bore models were Holtons.
The sound of the Martin Committee (as with most/all trumpet designs)
was a function of the bell taper.
Robert DeSavage
This might be of interest. Just scroll down toward the bottom of the
page. Hopefully the link below will work.
Jeff
>
> >The sound of the Martin Committee (as with most/all trumpet designs)
> >was a function of the bell taper.
>
> This might be of interest. Just scroll down toward the bottom of the
> page. Hopefully the link below will work.
>
> http://www.osmun.com/services/OsmunPage.htm
There you have it!
Cliff Blackburn talked about this (and many other aspects of trumpet
design) at his presentation at ITG this last year. Very, very
interesting stuff.
Bill Graham
I like the idea of the, "tuning slide trigger". Way back when I first
started playing the trumpet I wondered why they didn't do this instead of
putting triggers on the first and third valve slides.....The tuning slide is
the obvious place to do this kind of pitch correction and it works for any
situation, including mutes......I wish there were some way to do this with
my flugelhorn, but the lead pipe tuning makes this impossible. (as far as I
know)
Robert DeSavage
wrote:
SNIPPED
>I like the idea of the, "tuning slide trigger". Way back when I first
>started playing the trumpet I wondered why they didn't do this instead of
>putting triggers on the first and third valve slides.....The tuning slide is
>the obvious place to do this kind of pitch correction and it works for any
>situation, including mutes......
>my flugelhorn, but the lead pipe tuning makes this impossible. (as far as I
>know)
The tried and true way without screwing around tuning slides ---LIP
IT!
Bill Graham
Yup.....That's what I do....But then, what choice do you have? Now,
Maniskawitch (or whatever) makes a quarter tone trumpet. I think a decently
long tuning slide plus a trigger control would do this too.....
Robert DeSavage
wrote:
"...SNIPPED..."
>>
>> The tried and true way without screwing around tuning slides ---LIP
>> IT!
>
>Yup.....That's what I do....But then, what choice do you have? Now,
>Maniskawitch (or whatever) makes a quarter tone trumpet. I think a decently
>long tuning slide plus a trigger control would do this too.....
You brought to mind a recording done some forty plus years ago by Don
Ellis titled "Electric Bath" where he largely utilized a quarter tone
trumpet (I believe manufactured by Holton since Ellis endorsed the
Holton line). It was a most interesting album thankfully re-released
on CD. While interesting, it doesn't hold the interest that I hold
with Hackett's "The Most Beautiful Horn In The World" and on the way
from Barnes and Noble "Jazz Impressions Of Lionel Bart's 'Oliver'".
While maybe not satisfactory to the jazz 'purist', both displayed
Hackett's ability to play with taste and simplicity. The Most
Beautiful Horn... is truly unusual where he was accompanied by a
Wurlitzer theater pipe organ. Sounded like a string section, yet
'organic'.
Jeff
>
> I like the idea of the, "tuning slide trigger".
They make that. It's called a trombone.
Bill Graham
"Jeff" <jeff.h...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:6bdbecc6-328c-436a...@z41g2000yqz.googlegroups.com...
On Dec 9, 3:06 pm, "Bill Graham" <w...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> I like the idea of the, "tuning slide trigger".
They make that. It's called a trombone.
I pride myself on being able to play anything made by man by
ear.......Except the trombone. I picked up one at a yard sale once, and I
couldn't play anything at all on it.
Jeff
> Except the trombone. I picked up one at a yard sale once, and I
> couldn't play anything at all on it.
Don't be too hard on yourself. Neither can most trombone players.
Robert DeSavage
Definitely excluded from the 'most' list would be Frank R. and Urbie
Green.
Randall Replogle
> The tried and true way without screwing around tuning slides ---LIP
> IT!
Yeah, but blowing "down the center of the horn" results in a better tone
quality, right?
RR
Jeff
wrote:
>
> Yeah, but blowing "down the center of the horn" results in a better tone
> quality, right?
Indeed. Compare low D lipped down with the same note where the pitch
is adjusted with the third valve slide...
Randall Replogle
Have you ever used a 1st valve trigger? I'm thinking about adding one.
The 3rd valve slide has always felt a little bit awkward for me.
RR
Jeff
wrote:
>
> Have you ever used a 1st valve trigger? I'm thinking about adding one.
> The 3rd valve slide has always felt a little bit awkward for me.
> RR
There's one on my '57 Connstellation 28A. Definitely preferred to the
3rd valve slide (though that horn's intonation is better than many
others I've played).