What accordion for classical music?
necz0r
So my ideal here is that I want to start playing classical music on
the accordion. I've been looking into what it takes since I figured a
bunch of things didn't match the accordion I have.
As I now understand you need a free bass layout, as in, single notes
(are these two things the same?), and then the other thing..
I play a piano accordion. As I can understand the bayan chromatic
button accordion is more respected for some reason with classical
music, and I've found a few reasons such as the keyboard being located
a bit farther out so it's easier to reach, different reed shape making
the sound crisper and a more full bass or something like that.
Is this true and a critical requirement for playing good classical
music on an accordion? Or can I stick with my beloved piano layout?
Alan Sharkis
point that classical players who are really serious do use free bass
or a converter, but there's no reason that you can't at least start
with Stradella just to see if you really enjoy that kind of playing.
People who were raised with chromatic button accordions (whether B or
C system) swear that they can play much faster than
piano-accordionists, but I've also heard piano-accordionists who can
match or exceed that kind of speed. There are advantages to chromatic
button layouts but making the switch from piano-accordion to a
chromatic button system is not easily done.
Bayans do have an advantage over other accordions in terms of a tone
that matches well with classical, particularly Baroque, music, but I
don't see them as absolutely necessary.
You should be getting other opinions here shortly :-)
Take care.
Alan
On Mon, 28 Apr 2008 13:42:44 -0700 (PDT), necz0r <necr...@gmail.com>
wrote:
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whatsanike
"necz0r" <necr...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:e1f66b5a-8601-4a6d...@m3g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
The more I played the Stradella piano accordion, the more classical things I
found I could adapt; pieces that I thought were not possible became
possible. The Free bass on the other hand, has single notes in the bass and
converter has a toggle between single notes and stradella. Many Bayans are
converter, and there was quite a bit of classical-type music composed for it
in Russia. The Chromatic accordion is preferred by many for classical
transcriptions, as you can reach a wider interval which can make up for the
limitations of range. I understand that C system chromatic is more likely to
be played using the thumb than is the B system, which is supposed to be
played with only four fingers, and many would argue, so is the C system
chromatic. I once had a C system stradella Chromatic that I found very much
more versatile than the piano accordion for transcribing Classical music,
but like a fool I sold it to a Mexican about 9 years ago. So now I can play
many of the Bach preludes, some fugues, some French suites and violin
sonatas, on the piano stradella, but I have trouble with the English suites.
Dang! WIth the C Chromatic, which was a grey 3/5 Accordiana, I had it up on
a stand, and was using Bartok's 15 Unpleasant Hungarian Songs (or was is
Peasant songs) to learn how to play it, and I found my thuimb was essential.
It still is by the way. But with the PA stradella I can of course play
waltzes, and simpler things. I won't tell you everything I play, because I
am planning to take the World by storm with a repertoire "out of nowhere''.
hvdveen
Of course I "have to" post (btw, AFTER having read the opinion of Alan and
Ike).
"Just" because I prefer to play classical music, and mostly: "Baroque".
Allthough, right now, I have the vespers of Edward Elgar on my repertoire,
with, in it, many winks to Boellman and Franck. Or the other way around, as
those 3 composers were living in the same period, and most probably have
been know to each other, and their compositions.
When 13 I started playing classical music on an "ordinary" P.A. And no, my
parents couldn't afford to buy a free bass instrument. Right then only the
Hohner Morino and Gola were available ... And I enjoyed what I did. With the
usual classical organ music, it will do. When you really want to play Bac,
and Scarlatti the way they wrote their music, you do need a free bass
system, as their left hand musical line uses about 2,5 octaves and are
continuing in the right hand and vice versa. So, to let the musical line /
sentence continu in sound and character you need not only free bass, but
also a 5-voices keyboard side, with several stops in which the voices are
combined in a clever way. But THAT is just an opinion, as this is a matter
of taste and interpretation. So: use your own ears, in stead of trusting a
written advice!
Personally I do prefer a cassotto instrument for baroque music. But again:
that is a personal opinion related to my interpretation of baroque music.
Button or key? I don't think that really is important.
Firstly, becaus speed is not essential in baroque music. Do realise, that
you had to use physical force to play a piano forte, or churchorgan datum
from that time the music was written. "Quick" play was not really an option.
You will find this element ini Bach's own music. When he writes 16th notes,
the speed indication usually will be lower than written 8th! Just because
you can't play 16th that quickly.
Sound? Bayan? Again: a personal opinion. The sound of a Bayan tends to be
more straigt, harsh, than a conventional accordion. The result is that the
caracter of the music you play, sounds like: "it is all the same". But
again: trust you own ears. When you play French organ music (or, for that
matter: the vespers by Elgar) you "need" a kind of romantic (tremolo?) voice
into the total sound. You won't be able to find that in a Bayan.
Apart from the fact that if you want to play more than just classical music,
you'd better choose an accordion wit a multi purpose sound. Which, the other
way around, obliges you to not buy a Parrot or Charron Freres because of the
too obvious tremolo, which is ideal for playing musettes.
By the way. I, again, personally, stick to classical music written for organ
"two hands", or piano (better: "Klavier"). Many of those compositions can be
played without need of an arrangement or transcription. When your idea of
"classical music" is "The Blue Danube" you'll have to (!) end up with an
arrangement, and you do need your chord bass system. No free basses are
really necessary, and, because of it's sound, I wouldn't choose a Bayan. A
lot of realy good transcriptions of orchestra classical music do need a
button lay out. Think for instance of the paganinivariations, or the liszt
arrangement of the La Campanella.
So:
1. What is the main part of your repertoire you fancy?
2. What do your ears advice you?
3. How much is there in your wallet?
Regards from The Netherlands
Hillebrand
"necz0r" <necr...@gmail.com> schreef in bericht
news:e1f66b5a-8601-4a6d...@m3g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
Ventura
in the States, it seems to my eyes that the Titano's are
an overwhelming favorite of the "serious" music sect,
and the competitions... certainly, Ms. Deffners longtime
support (commissioning works of music, keeping marginal
music in print and available) and committment to certain
standards of tone and playability (and free-bass) and
work with the AAA has something to do with that...
and on the modern side, obviously, with the variety of sounds
and the multitude of free and stradella bass layouts built
into the instrument, the FR-3 V-Accordion (around 3 grand)
is likely a certain type of Students most versatile choice...
i mean, by all means spend 7 grand or so for a great Acoustic
with the type of Freebass you really want... but you need to know
exactly what you want/need to make that kind of investment...
i feel the Roland gives you an economical bridge from here to there
Ciao
Ventura
FR-3 spec's (tone list & un-official reed reference)
full reed-sets:
1 Classic (Bugari type tone)
2 Jazz (Excelsior type tone)
3 Italian Folk (Beltuna type tone)
4 Diatonic Folk (Warm tone, good for solo's)
5 French Folk (Maugein type tone)
6 Spanish Folk
7 Bandoneon
8 Steirische (and Tuba bass)
9 Cajun
10 Tex-Mex (typical straight up tone)
Tones:
1 Trombone
2 Latino Trumpet
3 Tenor Sax
4 Alto Sax
5 Clarinet
6 Harmonica
7 Violin
8 Flute
9 Jazz Organ
10 Blues Organ
treble registers:
1 L
2 L M
3 L M H
4 L H
5 L M M H (Master)
6 M M + (M M M) on second press
7 M M H + (M M M H) on second press
8 M H
9 M
10 H
exception: French (group 5)
1 L
2 L M
3 M (variation Middle)
4 L M (M is sharp)
5 L M M H (Voix)
6 6a MMM Av Meusette 6b MMM Sos meus
7 7a MMM Sw Waltz 7b MM Mr Gus
8 M H
9 M (normal Middle)
10 H
there are 7 bass shifts, typical reed tones, or instruments
you can also mix inst Bass+Acc reeds/Acc Bass+inst chords
bass tones: chord tones:
1 Acoustic Bass strings
2 Bowed organ
3 FIngered guitar
4 Fretless brass
5 Picked choir
6 Tuba harps & Strings
7 Tuba mix Guitar & Organ
David Kastrup
> So my ideal here is that I want to start playing classical music on
> the accordion. I've been looking into what it takes since I figured a
> bunch of things didn't match the accordion I have.
>
> As I now understand you need a free bass layout, as in, single notes
> (are these two things the same?), and then the other thing..
There are pretty good arrangements for Stradella available sometimes.
If you don't want to depend on Stradella arrangements (after all, the
original composers did not have it at their disposal often), a free bass
becomes more interesting.
> I play a piano accordion. As I can understand the bayan chromatic
> button accordion is more respected for some reason with classical
> music, and I've found a few reasons such as the keyboard being located
> a bit farther out so it's easier to reach, different reed shape making
> the sound crisper and a more full bass or something like that.
>
> Is this true and a critical requirement for playing good classical
> music on an accordion? Or can I stick with my beloved piano layout?
You can stick with piano. Button is more flexible in what you can reach
(though I find it more difficult to do a good legato flow). And having
only one hand on the discant side is more flexible with button. But it
is not so essential unless you are planning to go for virtuoso.
--
David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum
Keith Freeman
> button accordion is more respected for some reason with classical
> music
Russian) playing classical music (Bach and Pachelbel) not so long ago and
was very impressed with - even moved by - the sound. At times it sounded
almost like a pipe organ.
-Keith
David Kastrup
I don't think that this is an exclusive mark of the Bayan. I have a
purported Weltmeister Caprice (purported since the only hint has been a
decrepit "Capri" on the golden metal discant gaze before restauration,
and I have seen similar builds auctioned as "Perlgold" or "Araldo" or
something like that, and present-day Weltmeister Caprice look nothing
like it), 4/5 reeds and 96 basses.
And this thing has a startingly organ-like sound when you pull all the
stops. I have other accordions that sound just like accordions. Ok, an
Italian one with a "clarinet" reed quite like an oboe d'amore.
It does not, I believe, have the best quality reeds, and perversely,
that may actually help. The very tight fit of high quality reeds also
causes overtones characteristic for, well, high quality accordion reeds.
Very nice silvery sound, but not organ-like.
Organ pipes with reeds in contrast, having a fixed pressure behind them,
don't need such a tight fit and that would likely even be
counterproductive given the temperatures in a church in winter (the
highest quality reeds fail below something like 8 degrees centigrade).
Keith Freeman
violin) in Köln town centre - perhaps you've come across them?
-Keith
David Kastrup
> The Bayan I heard was being played by a couple of buskers (the other played
> violin) in Köln town centre - perhaps you've come across them?
I am afraid that I am almost never in Cologne city.
Keith Freeman
>> played violin) in Köln town centre - perhaps you've come across them?
>
> I am afraid that I am almost never in Cologne city.
Maybe they busk elsewhere in Germany.
-Keith
whatsanike
"David Kastrup" <d...@gnu.org> wrote in message
news:85bq3rl...@lola.goethe.zz...
Soprani with the "Ampliphonic" reed bars, like 11 reed bars in the treble
and 6 in the bass. Of course any of these will have to have the wax an
leathers redone, and the black keys reglued and new or reglued treble pads
as these were put on with hide glue which is starting to let go.
This sounds almost like a cassotto, except without the added weight, and the
tone is less overwhelming and better balanced than the tone chamber. The
bass low notes are very organ-like.
whatsanike
"hvdveen" <H.J....@net.HCC.nl> wrote in message
news:481857b6$0$66955$dbd4...@news.wanadoo.nl...
> Hello to you too.
>
> Of course I "have to" post (btw, AFTER having read the opinion of Alan and
> Ike).
>
> "Just" because I prefer to play classical music, and mostly: "Baroque".
> Allthough, right now, I have the vespers of Edward Elgar on my repertoire,
> with, in it, many winks to Boellman and Franck. Or the other way around,
> as those 3 composers were living in the same period, and most probably
> have been know to each other, and their compositions.
>
> When 13 I started playing classical music on an "ordinary" P.A. And no, my
> parents couldn't afford to buy a free bass instrument. Right then only the
> Hohner Morino and Gola were available ... And I enjoyed what I did. With
> the usual classical organ music, it will do. When you really want to play
> Bac, and Scarlatti the way they wrote their music, you do need a free bass
> system, as their left hand musical line uses about 2,5 octaves and are
> continuing in the right hand and vice versa. So, to let the musical line /
> sentence continu in sound and character you need not only free bass, but
> also a 5-voices keyboard side, with several stops in which the voices are
> combined in a clever way. But THAT is just an opinion, as this is a matter
> of taste and interpretation. So: use your own ears, in stead of trusting a
> written advice!
>
stradella instrumentwhen a lot of the voices just form chords. For instance
te Bach French Suites can be done on SAtradella, but I haven't been able to
do the English Suites.
<...>
> By the way. I, again, personally, stick to classical music written for
> organ "two hands", or piano (better: "Klavier"). Many of those
> compositions can be played without need of an arrangement or
> transcription. When your idea of "classical music" is "The Blue Danube"
> you'll have to (!) end up with an arrangement, and you do need your chord
> bass system. No free basses are really necessary, and, because of it's
> sound, I wouldn't choose a Bayan. A lot of realy good transcriptions of
> orchestra classical music do need a button lay out. Think for instance of
> the paganinivariations, or the liszt arrangement of the La Campanella.
>
I find that some of the Paganini Caprices can be played on Stradella , for
instane "La Campanella"
Paganini caprice, not the Liszt arrangement, if you can make the jumps and
occasionally transpose a line up or down an octave.