Re: was vs. cork/leather?
Alan Sharkis
incident is still fresh in my mind.
I brought my kids to a small, indoor amusement park to ride a
carousel. Somebody was repairing/restoring band organs in the
building, and apparently didn't mind us looking on. At the moment he
was replacing a lot of old red rubber tubing that had begun to crumble
with plastic tubing that would probably last a very long time. Funny.
Nobody criticized him for not using the original materials. Sure, the
tubing was part of the vacuum control system employed by the
instrument, and using plastic probably didn't affect the tone quality
that the pipes would eventually produce.
So, let's assume that pouring wax over leather that's no longer
sealing doesn't affect the tone quality of the accordion, but makes it
playable. Unless the accordion goes to a collector or a museum, in
which cases it wouldn't be played often anyway, and after carefully
explaining to the customer why wax would be a good compromise between
throwing the accordion away and spending a fortune for the long,
expensive process of restoring the leather, what's the harm?
Take care.
Alan
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David Kastrup
> So, let's assume that pouring wax over leather that's no longer
> sealing doesn't affect the tone quality of the accordion, but makes it
> playable. Unless the accordion goes to a collector or a museum, in
> which cases it wouldn't be played often anyway, and after carefully
> explaining to the customer why wax would be a good compromise between
> throwing the accordion away and spending a fortune for the long,
> expensive process of restoring the leather, what's the harm?
I've heard the proposal to replace a working leather setup with waxing
(at considerable cost to the customer) as part of an overhaul because
the person (I think this was about some routine maintenance job, maybe a
slight retune) considered leather as something he was not willing to
work with.
It's not in the same class as the one proposing "we'll rip out those old
scrappy reed plates and put in shiny new ones" for the very highest
grade hand-made ones, but it still is something leaving a bad taste in
your mouth.
--
David Kastrup
Johann Pascher
Well whatever makes anyone here think the customer is not willing to
spend more money for restoring if you use the right arguments?
The other argument her comparing rubber tube replacement is just not
worth talking about, think abut it, we all know that natural rubber
and as well some plastic has limited lifetime.
We talk here abut two alternative methods, both well usable if it was
intended so the first place.
Johann
David Kastrup
> On May 7, 4:03 pm, David Kastrup <d...@gnu.org> wrote:
>
>> I've heard the proposal to replace a working leather setup with
>> waxing (at considerable cost to the customer) as part of an overhaul
>> because the person (I think this was about some routine maintenance
>> job, maybe a slight retune) considered leather as something he was
>> not willing to work with.
>
> Well whatever makes anyone here think the customer is not willing to
> spend more money for restoring if you use the right arguments?
In this case it was more about spending money for mutilating.
> The other argument her comparing rubber tube replacement is just not
> worth talking about, think abut it, we all know that natural rubber
> and as well some plastic has limited lifetime.
Both leather and wax have limited lifetime as well. In 50 years you'll
need to redo either, and the leather will still be the more expensive
variant.
Over the lifetime of the material, the investment is not that large,
however.
--
David Kastrup
Ventura
Johann Pascher wrote:
> We talk here abut two alternative methods, both well usable if it was
> intended so the first place.
>
i'm not sure, Johann... as I think about it
(from my limited experience) i can easily see
where a decent tech, honestly servicing a leather based
reed mounted accordion, after other work was complete,
tuning was touched up, etc. but then finding there is
considerable seepage of air pressure around the hardened
leather gasket(s) might be inclined to offer a simple
wax alternative to a complete gasket overhaul
(should the accordion not be worth that high an
investment, or the owner simply not be able to anywhere
near afford to have it done to original specs.
now in this scenario, the old, hardened leather is still
the point of contact material for the most part for all
the reedplates... so the charachteristics of the tone
are not going to change if you just draw a thin bead
of was on all the outside edges of the plates, right along
the leather
all you're doing is sealing air gaps along the edges
which would improve things a lot
it would not change the tone at all as i see it,
since the edges of the reedplates are not a resonant
factor... the transfer area for vibrations has not
been altered at all... the principal mounting strength
still comes from the screws, the plates lie in the
same leather indentations as they have for 50 years.
maybe it would make a full restoration a bit more
difficult at a later date, but not by much as you'd
have to strip the reed-block surfaces in any case.
it makes sense to me
now the guy who tried to get someone to pay a huge amount
to have him strip the leather THEN shim and wax was obviously
a crook and a hack and a liar
Ciao
Ventura
David Kastrup
> i'm not sure, Johann... as I think about it
> (from my limited experience) i can easily see
> where a decent tech, honestly servicing a leather based
> reed mounted accordion, after other work was complete,
> tuning was touched up, etc. but then finding there is
> considerable seepage of air pressure around the hardened
> leather gasket(s) might be inclined to offer a simple
> wax alternative to a complete gasket overhaul
> (should the accordion not be worth that high an
> investment, or the owner simply not be able to anywhere
> near afford to have it done to original specs.
>
> now in this scenario, the old, hardened leather is still
> the point of contact material for the most part for all
> the reedplates... so the charachteristics of the tone
> are not going to change if you just draw a thin bead
> of was on all the outside edges of the plates, right along
> the leather
The wax is not intended to bridge gaps: it just seals off the wood/plate
contact which gives a much smaller area for pressure on the wax. And if
the leather is hardening, the air will escape _sideways_, to other
reeds. You can't really fix that with wax since the leather is
basically one strip on each side of the reed block.
--
David Kastrup
Ventura
David Kastrup wrote:
> And if
> the leather is hardening, the air will escape _sideways_, to other
> reeds. You can't really fix that with wax
ahh... i hadn't thought of that... so the bond between leather
and block can be affected by the hardening and the air slips
under the leather to the next reed/embochure
i was assuming the only leakage was around the outside
(visible) edges
ciao
Ventura
David Kastrup
The leather has no air-relevant edges one could seal, does it? It is
one piece. The edges with pressure are where the holes for the reeds
have been cut.
I have no practical experience myself here, but it appears to me that
you can't even attempt to do a half-baked job here.
--
David Kastrup
Ventura
> one piece. The edges with pressure are where the holes for the reeds
> have been cut
it depends... i mean, if the leather was just tacked lightly
acrodd the wood to begin with, OK, it could lift, but if it
was glues seriously, then the holes cut, then the reedplates
screwed on, then yes, over time, the leather hardening
(and especially if a couple had to be removed and re-attached
for servicing) then the outer aluminum edges of the reed-plates,
which are at right angles to the leather, give a 90 degree
angle to seal with a tiny line of wax
if the leather was glued firmly to the reedblock, during
shrinkage, the surface most likely to move is the side
exposed to air, and the resulting irregularities seem,
to me, to be likely to cause air leakage between the flat
outer rectangle of the aluminum plate that is in direct
contact with the exposed surface of the leather, and the
most likely area of escape would be along the 90 degree edge
Ciao
Ventura
whatsanike
"Alan Sharkis" <cartilagi...@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:2fb3245r8jccjjpa2...@4ax.com...
I can't believe that it was some thirty years ago, because the
incident is still fresh in my mind.
I brought my kids to a small, indoor amusement park to ride a
carousel. Somebody was repairing/restoring band organs in the
building, and apparently didn't mind us looking on. At the moment he
was replacing a lot of old red rubber tubing that had begun to crumble
with plastic tubing that would probably last a very long time. Funny.
Nobody criticized him for not using the original materials. Sure, the
tubing was part of the vacuum control system employed by the
instrument, and using plastic probably didn't affect the tone quality
that the pipes would eventually produce.
So, let's assume that pouring wax over leather that's no longer
sealing doesn't affect the tone quality of the accordion, but makes it
playable. Unless the accordion goes to a collector or a museum, in
which cases it wouldn't be played often anyway, and after carefully
explaining to the customer why wax would be a good compromise between
throwing the accordion away and spending a fortune for the long,
expensive process of restoring the leather, what's the harm?
Take care.
Alan
OK, well why would you assume that it makes no difference in the sound? If
you had followed the whole thread, you would have seen -- I think it was the
OP -- about the leather mounting getting rid of unwanted overtones.
As for what the customer wants: The customer doesn't care to begin with. If
the customer cared, then there would be a discussion about using leather.
Now, all I will say to that customer is, (if the leather is mostly bad) is,
"I will go ahead and pour some wax because the leather is all dirty and
falling apart". If the customer wants leather, he will then tell me not to
pour wax, but fix the leather. I have had extremely few with leather anyway
.
In fact, until I read the OP, I didn't think it mattered much. I would just
use the leather if it was good, or pour wax if it was bad.
The worst thing now, I think, is if someone automatically pours wax no
matter what. I wasn't guilty of that.
whatsanike
"Ventura" <acco...@att.net> wrote in message
news:PNCUj.306282$cQ1.2...@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
You would not tune the accordion int the first place unless the leather waqs
probviding a good seal, as the air leakage will afect the tuning. So you
wouldnot just tune it with the bad leather and then pour wax all over it to
seal it. You would decide first what to do, then the tuning is the last
thing.
whatsanike
See my post just now. The leakage is most likely to be at the place where
the reed plate is not held tightly under the wood strip, due to shrinkage of
the leather. Very hot wax takes care of that issue.
whatsanike
"David Kastrup" <d...@gnu.org> wrote in message
news:86zlr1n...@lola.quinscape.zz...
loose, some air will escape to the sides. The question might be whether this
is significant seepage, as the path of least resistance is not under the
sides between the chambers. The air has a long way to go if it goes that way
and a lot of resistance. The seepage might be minimal. Usually the problem
with the leather is it has shrunk, and not necessarily loose between the
reeds. The place where it is likely to have seepage between the chambers or
leakage is under the heel of the plate, where there is a strip of wood with
a leather lining holding that end down, usually where the riveted end is.
That part has to be carefully waxed with wax hot enough to get into the
crevice.
Ventura
whatsanike wrote:
The leakage is most likely to be at the place where
> the reed plate is not held tightly under the wood strip, due to shrinkage of
> the leather. Very hot wax takes care of that issue.
>
>
it makes sense to me...
i've never worked on leather mounts, and anyhow my work is just
spot stuff to get by
just got lucky though and ran across a nice
italian made iorio for 100 bucks... it needed
less than an hour and a set of straps...
3/4 size model, decent reeds... i gave it to
my Pizza guy, Mike who's been wanting to learn
how to play... just enough to get him started
50 year old box and the tuning was almost dead on
same factory as a Cornet i have (don't know which
factory, recognized the bodywork and mechanics)
ciao
Ventura
whatsanike
"Ventura" <acco...@att.net> wrote in message
news:OMDUj.306485$cQ1.2...@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
it with leather, but the biggest gap will be there. the leather is in the
slot formed by the wood strip, not under the strip itslef. The screwss or
nails hold the plate down against the leather on the sides andthe other end
of the plate, and shrinkage of the leather ther will not have a great
effect, because the tightness of the screwss makes a dent in it around the
plate. But where ther is no such kind of pressure is at the top of the reed
plate againsts the leather butting up against the end under the wood strip
(if present), and when this leather shrinks it causes a significan leak in
some places where the reed platecan even slip lengthwise away from it. So
that is why very hot wax is poured there.
With aopologies to Johann..
Johann Pascher
> "Ventura" <accord...@att.net> wrote in message
It always depends on the actual state the accordion is in and the
material that ware used, even leather is not leather some old natural
leather would even be nearly like new after 100 years, and other
leather may by needed to exchange. if some wrapping and bending on the
reed blocks did take place it my be impossible to fix this with just
replacing the leather, but with wax you my get it to be usable. I did
not point at this situation when the technician must decide what is
best or even is only possible to do in his situation possible to do.
But using wax instead of leather nearly in every case without good
reason is not a good thing. I had to clean off wax and had to redo the
leather on some accordion's where there war no real need and the
fixing could have bean done in the first place without wax. On other
very old Accordions with brass reed frames and leather the leather is
and was usable in most cases without replacing. With aluminium or zinc
frames on leather it depends much on the Leather how much the leather
and the frames are effected. I even would think with modern Leather
and aluminium it may even be better to use wax on the long run in the
first place. But we talk here not about 50 years that course
problems.
Then here it was stated that it does not effect the sound at all or
much if it is changed from wax to Leather or it is more related to the
screws.
Still the screws is is strongly involve in the change of sound and as
well the placing of the screws. For the technician this may be not
evident because he douse not concentrate on this little differences
and he my have his own preferences, but only the preferences of the
customer should count. And often the result is more evident on the
complete instrument as on sounding a singe reed. If it ware Leather
montage in the first place it was done for some reason and it was the
more expensive way of doing the job. If you rely have to change it for
very good reason later, think carefully about it, it my be that you do
better to fix the problem as to do dirty and fast patch. If there is a
problem on single reed don't do the dirty fix to all reeds. My be the
customer makes a different decision later. And take your time to
explain the situation and to the customers as with most things in live
there is not an easy way to answers everything.
Johann Pascher
> You would not tune the accordion int the first place unless the leather waqs
> probviding a good seal, as the air leakage will afect the tuning. So you
> wouldnot just tune it with the bad leather and then pour wax all over it to
> seal it. You would decide first what to do, then the tuning is the last
> thing.
Yes agree, think twice before you start tuning reeds!
Are the reed s clean?
In what condition are the Valves?
Are the red blocks in position?
Do the the switches work correct?
And even the mechanic and the flaps my effect the pitch.
This are just the first thing that get in my mind before i would start
tuning.
Is just a singe reed to re-tune or is the complete set of reed
effected is some way, then most likely retuning is not the thing you
should concentrate first.
David Kastrup
> OK, well why would you assume that it makes no difference in the
> sound? If you had followed the whole thread, you would have seen -- I
> think it was the OP -- about the leather mounting getting rid of
> unwanted overtones.
One has to balance here: at some time, wax was not even getting used,
and leather was used indiscriminately. It makes a noticeable difference
only with highest-quality reeds (which are overtone-rich as a by-product
of minimal air gaps), and I would think quite less than a cassotto.
> As for what the customer wants: The customer doesn't care to begin
> with. If the customer cared, then there would be a discussion about
> using leather. Now, all I will say to that customer is, (if the
> leather is mostly bad) is, "I will go ahead and pour some wax because
> the leather is all dirty and falling apart". If the customer wants
> leather, he will then tell me not to pour wax, but fix the leather. I
> have had extremely few with leather anyway.
Well, if we are talking top of the line, people will tend to go to
factory certified accordeon makers. And if we are just talking about
quite old instruments not in the top range, the difference will not be a
glaring advantage. So I am not surprised.
--
David Kastrup