was vs. cork/leather
Russ Gray
line and Beltrami's new folk model) that say they are putting the
reeds on the reed blocks with a layer of leather or cork as a gasket
rather than waxing them in.
Would someone elaborate on this or give an opinion as to the
differences and similarities. Is one method superior or are there are
certain drawbacks or things to watch out for. Does it matter? Is
there a noticeable difference in sound?
Thanks
russ
teje...@gmail.com
Hi Russ,
Being a proffessional accordion technician and organ builder since
1981 my experience tells that using a cork or leather gasket between
reed and reedblock primarily is an "overnote-killer". Wether you like
it or not is subjective recording to your personal taste.
Using handmade reeds is implimenting a big amount of overnotes. These
will give the instrument a crispy and transparent sound character.
Besides this it also expires very clearly the tuning standard of the
instrument because the overnotes are "fighting" against each other
especially when using equal temperament. As you probably have realized
already, accordions are seldom in tune. One way to cover this fact is
to reduce the amount of overnotes in different ways. The most common
way is using a tone chamber. Another way is to use a gasket of cork or
leather between reed and reedblock which means that you will have a
flexible or plastic connection between the two surfaces.
The other way around - wanting a sound rich of overnotes - is to nail
or screw the reeds directly on the reedblock as f.ex. Cavagnolo has
done for decades in their musette models. In older instruments the
reedblock where glued directly to the fundament plate which gave the
same result. By doing this you can also "improve" reeds of a poorer
quality to be more crispy.
In short: using gaskets is a way to kill some of the unwanted
overnotes in hand made reeds and still having the advantage of the
hand made reeds better attack, dynamic and less air consumption.
Basically I believe that equal temperament is the main reason that
accordions do sound harsch and unpleasant because the overnote
patterns do not fit at all to each other. I have had only positive
results by using alternative temperament models.
Torben Ejersbo
whatsanike
<teje...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:90e14f2b-9208-4100...@59g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
Hi Russ,
Torben Ejersbo
Thank you for that reply. There was a discussion a few months ago about
leather vs. wax. What would be interesting to know is, among the many
alternatives to Equal Temperament, which do you prefer?
I would have to agree athat the overtone problem is probably made worse by
Equal Temperament. Maybe this could be overcome by stretch tuning where the
octaves are tuned by synchronizing the 3rd partials?
Ventura
it happened that i was at the Serenellini factory the year he introduced
his "Imperator" model, and he was working on the reeds to one that day.
The raison'de'etre for his new model was, principally, predicated
on featuring the no-wax French style Reed mounting system.
basically, it reflects a lot of hours in setup, as well as a level
of precision and skill, and preparation in terms of material's, that
aren't something you just decide to do overnight
Obviously, the reedblocks have to be absolutely stable in terms
of the type of wood, kilned of course, as the slightest warpage
factor would screw this system up... the holes for the screws
have to be drilled ahead of time so the block can be cleaned of
all particles... then a very fine, thin layer of Leather is bonded
across the reedblock, the holes carefully re-cut, the reeds mounted
perfectly via the screws (the thin leather being the gasket)
positioning is a tad bit more critical for each reedplate...
obviously the plates themselves must be perfectly edged and dead
flat surfaced with no tiny imperfections or burrs
After having watched this painstaking process, i'd have to say
i can't imagine using Cork... that material is just not conducive
to ultra-thin, strong, and workable gasketing... i'd think it would
be a nightmare to use in production... maybe it's some new machine
done wrinkle with a thicker gasket? if the "fun" line is inexpensive
i'd have to imagine so... as the process I saw is absolutely a premium,
costly, and highly skilled technical marvel of dedication.
the Imperator had a more powerful sound than his normal professional
models, the tone chamberd reeds were warm but not muted as in many
of todays thick, generic bodied bare-bones full size accordions
that so many small factories buy/use for finishing/building their models
I can't comment on the beltrami specifically, as i've never heard of the
brand nor seen one of their accordions... but now that all the majors
are dead, it does seem like there are more names/brands available
today than i've seen in decades... no way to tell what these small
finishing shops actually specialise in, or what makes their
accordions special without visiting them, as they all look huge
on the Internet, and all their importers will tell you what great
factories they are no matter what holes-in-the-wall they actually
might be
i would estimate no more than 2 places left that make Accordion
linkage and key-mechanism's (in Italy) which is a very limiting
factor and only varies in the level of felting and final adjustment
between brands... most reedblocks are generic, and most are waxed
on kitchen tables by sub-contractors, then brought back to the
factories for inclusion in assemblies
with the death of the original SEM factory, (and considering the
"pretender") plus the buyout of Excelsior and sale of the facility
and (so i've heard) scrapping of much of the old New York machinery,
and consider Zero supplied a lot of shells, now they are dead too...
i would speculate there are more Asian bodies under so-called
Italian accordions than you would be comfortable knowing about, and
more "factories" looking the other way about it too...
(when you hear of a new $2000-3000 "pro" accordion at retail...
well, just remember what I said and wonder where the Body and Mechanics
actually were sourced)
For me, Serenellini reflects the intense dedication of it's Master
to finely controlled process, technical excellence, and tone...
FisItalia reflects the epitome of factory Tuning, creative Style,
Focused models, and ability to customize
Guerrini reflects tradition and a standard of excellence as well
as dedication to a specific tonality
other factories i visited either did not impress me, or no longer exist
but each of you can go, visit, pay attention and figure out
who is doing what well (or not)
IMHO, the fact that old Italian accordions, even Student models,
easily exceed 50 years of usable life is not going to be reflected
in the vast majority of todays brands... and is in fact by
association propping up the value of some of the new stuff...
the pressure to cut corners and survive at all costs is more
than many can resist... please reflect that Accordion manufacturing
is not exactly renowned for it's honesty, as it is for telling
you what you want to hear and taking your money and keeping you
very, very busy until your flight boards
Ciao
Ventura
David Kastrup
> it happened that i was at the Serenellini factory the year he
> introduced his "Imperator" model, and he was working on the reeds to
> one that day. The raison'de'etre for his new model was, principally,
> predicated on featuring the no-wax French style Reed mounting system.
>
> basically, it reflects a lot of hours in setup, as well as a level of
> precision and skill, and preparation in terms of material's, that
> aren't something you just decide to do overnight
My accordion maker says that in the production line, waxing twenty
accordions a day is not unusual for a skilled worker. If she gets a
single accordion finished when doing the mounting on leather, however,
she is very good.
Is it worth the trouble? Accordion makers not skilled in the process
will, of course, propose changing the reed blocks to wax and bill you
for it. The leather tends to get hard after 50 years or so and needs to
get replaced eventually. But so does the wax.
--
David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum
whatsanike
"David Kastrup" <d...@gnu.org> wrote in message
news:85myn4a...@lola.goethe.zz...
When I get a job where a lot of the leather is bad, I will just pour wax
over it, after cleaning the reeds, etc. I haven't had anyone insist on using
leather. I have done jobs years ago with new leather, but now I haven't got
the luxury of extra time. If you remove the leather, you need to shim the
space that the leather occupied. For this I use "museum board" of about the
same thickness.
Johann Pascher
Is very sad to hear this, that restoration is not done to the state it
original was done!
To all owners of high quality accordions with leather mounted reeds,
please ask for proper fixing!
You surly want that you accordion should not be worth less after
"fixing"!
Best regards, Johann
David Kastrup
> On May 6, 3:25 am, "whatsanike" <ikemilli...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> "David Kastrup" <d...@gnu.org> wrote in message
>>
>> > Is it worth the trouble? Accordion makers not skilled in the
>> > process will, of course, propose changing the reed blocks to wax
>> > and bill you for it. The leather tends to get hard after 50 years
>> > or so and needs to get replaced eventually. But so does the wax.
>>
>> When I get a job where a lot of the leather is bad, I will just pour
>> wax over it, after cleaning the reeds, etc. I haven't had anyone
>> insist on using leather. I have done jobs years ago with new leather,
>> but now I haven't got the luxury of extra time. If you remove the
>> leather, you need to shim the space that the leather occupied. For
>> this I use "museum board" of about the same thickness.
>
> Is very sad to hear this, that restoration is not done to the state it
> original was done! To all owners of high quality accordions with
> leather mounted reeds, please ask for proper fixing! You surly want
> that you accordion should not be worth less after "fixing"!
Accordions are there to be played, so the goal of the restauration
should be to get the best state for playing, not the most original one.
I have a Morino Artiste VI D here. The accordion maker said that if it
was his own instrument, he would replace the waxing by leather.
Now the characteristics of that instrument are very high quality tipo a
mano reed plates (better than quite a few a mano reeds), and no cassotto
(there is an angled bass reed block, and the bassoon discant block has
separately coupled pallets opening into the keyboard casing, sometimes
called "small cassotto", but it is not the same as a full cassotto).
That means that the sound is very crisp. Leather mounts might mellow it
somewhat.
In contrast, I have an old Weltmeister with reasonable quality reeds.
This instrument has an almost sacral sound quality without the need of
cassotto or leather mounting or whatever (those would mostly be wasted,
not causing much sound difference, I guess). However, it has quite less
of a dynamic range, worse response, and requires more effort and air to
play.
Different tradeoffs. The highest quality reeds have very minimal gaps
and, through the resulting air turbulences, a high amount of overtones.
Both cassotto and leather mounts can mellow them.
For some reason, both have become sought-after items by themselves, as
an imagined token of quality, even though they actually improve the
sound mostly of highest-quality reeds.
So nowadays you can pay extra for getting crap reeds placed into
cassotto casings. A waste of money, mostly.
--
David Kastrup
whatsanike
"Johann Pascher" <Johann....@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:60f13a4f-48a4-457d...@26g2000hsk.googlegroups.com...
I know how you feel. Often these old accordions would not be useful at all
if I did not do anything. It might be a choice between not having it played,
or doing the wax.
snavoyosky
Russ, you presented very good questions.
There isn't a noticeable difference between leather and wax
considering that each method has been properly applied. This then
states that one method is not superior to the other.
The bottom line for the 'superior' sound quality rests in the security
of the reeds to the block all of which transmits the sound. Anchoring
the reeds by L screws can achieve great results. Likewise for wax but
only when the wax has the optimum combination and that means high
quality beeswax in particular. As long as that wax strongly holds the
reeds, you'll find the sound quality equivalent to the reeds mounted
on a continuous reed plate as found in the Russian accordions. Now all
this is based on all things being equal starting with the reed tongue
construction, type of reed plate, wood type of reed block, and of
course the achorage.
Hope this answers your concerns.
SJN
whatsanike
"snavoyosky" <SNavo...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:9122aeb3-b8d9-4c7e...@l42g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
SJN
It is believed with some physical evidence that leather mounting will damp
overtones in favor of fundamental, thus giving a mellower sound. The
overtones being higher components of the reed note, they would be
transmitted to the chamber and resonate with hard mounting. The wax is a
hard substance, in that it grips the reed very tightly against the chamber
when poured hot, as it should be. The quality of the beeswax might be less
of an influence on the hardness, than the proportion of collophonium to
beeswax, and the temperature of its application. It is possible to pour the
hot wax so that it is impossible to press out the reed plate without either
destroying the wood, or melting or cutting the wax. This hard wax gives the
maximum brightness (due to high hz overtones) to the sound, when the wax is
carefully poured so that no air can leak out.
The leather mounting is for the purpose of damping the overtones, so that
the sound is less harsh or bright. Some players might prefer the
brightness, and others might consider it harsh. The L shaped nail that is
often used is so that the reed can be pushed firmly against the leather to
minimize or eliminate air leakage. It does little to transmit overtones, as
the leather mounting has a strong influence on damping them. See the OP in
this thread.
~Ike
David Kastrup
> The leather mounting is for the purpose of damping the overtones, so
> that the sound is less harsh or bright. Some players might prefer the
> brightness, and others might consider it harsh. The L shaped nail that
> is often used is so that the reed can be pushed firmly against the
> leather to minimize or eliminate air leakage. It does little to
> transmit overtones, as the leather mounting has a strong influence on
> damping them. See the OP in this thread.
Well, I was yesterday at my accordion maker. His take on the leather
mounts is that the wax dampens the vibration.
David Kastrup
> The leather mounting is for the purpose of damping the overtones, so
> that the sound is less harsh or bright. Some players might prefer the
> brightness, and others might consider it harsh. The L shaped nail that
> is often used is so that the reed can be pushed firmly against the
> leather to minimize or eliminate air leakage. It does little to
> transmit overtones, as the leather mounting has a strong influence on
> damping them. See the OP in this thread.
Well, I was yesterday at my accordion maker. His take on the leather
mounts is that the wax dampens the vibration. So you get a clearer and
better sustained sound.
Now don't ask me what to believe...
Ventura
we were shown to take a simple long wood or metal dowel/rod,
place one end firmly behind the ear against the bone,then take the other
end and touch it to various metal points on a running engine
(carefully)
to locate a clacking valve, or localize some other noise
and figure out what to repair
conducting a similar experiment for yourself
will quickly show the best transmission of sound
through solid objects is with a firm contact
hard surface to hard surface
anything coming between the contact area...
leather or cork gasket... air... skin... etc.
attenuates the high frequencies most noticeably
and all frequencies to some degree
the leather mounting system can be perceived as
a type of pre-set tone control, the same could be
said for a tone chamber.
the wax is merely a means of keeping the metal reed-plate,
which is in tight and riveted contact with the reed tongue,
in tight and direct contact with the wood of the block.
you could use your fingers and press it tight, though wax
does a better job sealing all the little leaks
(how many accordion makers sand their reed blocks to a dead
flat surface before installing the reeds? don't make
me laugh!)
the best transmission of vibrations from the reed through
the reed plate into the reed block would be to have maximum
dead flat surfaces in full and direct contact
but there is another factor here... please tell me where
is the resonant soundboard or other resonant device that
is now going to take these transmitted vibrations and
convert them into audible sound? the reed block is solidly
mounted and is not a resonant device (as far as i can tell)
the surface those blocks are firmly mounted against is usually
an aluminum plate, plywood, or some such combination of
decidedly non-musical materials (it's key purpose is
to stay strong and flat) that is most definitely not
crowned (like a typical soundboard) and very securely
and rigidly held around it's perimeter... i doubt it
will allow those vibrations to resonate out into the air...
from there you are into the body proper...
so the way sound vibrations transmit through solid materials
vs soft materials, and where those vibrations end up and escape
into the air (if anywhere) is the key... do the trapped vibrations
act as a reduction vs. if they had been transmitted out the air
hole directly from the reed? or is there no subtraction? is the
tonal softness principally due to the soft leather sucking up
a tiny amount of treble from the sound IN THE AIR nearby before
the air escapes out the accordion? or is there some place the
vibrations through the materials turn into audible sound? and where
does that sound escape the accordion? is it in phase with the
audible vibrations in the air swoosh as the pad lifts off the
embouchure? or does it cause cancellations?
ciao
Ventura
David Kastrup
> conducting a similar experiment for yourself
> will quickly show the best transmission of sound
> through solid objects is with a firm contact
>
> hard surface to hard surface
>
> anything coming between the contact area...
> leather or cork gasket... air... skin... etc.
> attenuates the high frequencies most noticeably
> and all frequencies to some degree
Sure, but nails are not elastic. To establish a firm reliable
non-snaring contact of plate to block, you need something providing
reliable pressure/tension. The leather will press the plate against the
nail heads. With a leather mount, the main transfer of sound is
probably through the nails rather than the plate/block contact.
> the leather mounting system can be perceived as
> a type of pre-set tone control, the same could be
> said for a tone chamber.
>
> the wax is merely a means of keeping the metal reed-plate,
> which is in tight and riveted contact with the reed tongue,
> in tight and direct contact with the wood of the block.
No, the wax is sealant. It is not strong enough to provide any
pressure/tightness worth noting: after all, it needs to retain its
plasticity.
> you could use your fingers and press it tight, though wax
> does a better job sealing all the little leaks
> (how many accordion makers sand their reed blocks to a dead
> flat surface before installing the reeds? don't make
> me laugh!)
Necessary for leather mounts, by the way.
> the best transmission of vibrations from the reed through
> the reed plate into the reed block would be to have maximum
> dead flat surfaces in full and direct contact
The question is whether you really want to have the best transmission:
the best transmission also sucks off energy and thus dampens the
vibration.
> but there is another factor here... please tell me where
> is the resonant soundboard or other resonant device that
> is now going to take these transmitted vibrations and
> convert them into audible sound? the reed block is solidly
> mounted and is not a resonant device (as far as i can tell)
Uh, I had the means to compare plastic and wooden reed block accordions.
No competition here. There will also be people that tell you that the
wood type and quality of a solid electric guitar makes a world of
difference even when everything else is the same.
Knock on the wood. Hear anything? If yes, it is a resonant device.
> the surface those blocks are firmly mounted against is usually
> an aluminum plate, plywood, or some such combination of
> decidedly non-musical materials (it's key purpose is
> to stay strong and flat) that is most definitely not
> crowned (like a typical soundboard) and very securely
> and rigidly held around it's perimeter... i doubt it
> will allow those vibrations to resonate out into the air...
Well, I discussed the reed blocks of an old Morino with my accordion
maker yesterday. They use about 4 different wood types for the various
parts of it, for different mechanical and acoustical properties.
It would be my guess that Venanzio Morino was no fool when it came to
building materials.
And if you have heard accordions with plastic reed blocks in direct
comparison, I think you might reconsider your stance that no resonance
can be involved here.
Anyway, according to my accordion maker, the wax is dampening the
vibrations of the reed block.
I am no longer sure about attenuating the higher partials. One would
probably have to do frequency analysis on the built-in parts before and
after refitting one instrument in one of the two possible ways.
It would be interesting to see just how much of an effect is there. But
at least according to my source (and he has learnt in the Italian
factories and seen a lot of instruments and arts), basically all
first-class soloist instruments are done with leather. There must be
some reason for that I would think.
snavoyosky
Ventura <accord...@att.net> writes:
> conducting a similar experiment for yourself
> will quickly show the best transmission of sound
> through solid objects is with a firm contact
> hard surface to hard surface
> anything coming between the contact area...
> leather or cork gasket... air... skin... etc.
> attenuates the high frequencies most noticeably
> and all frequencies to some degree
<<Sure, but nails are not elastic. To establish a firm reliable non-
snaring contact of plate to block, you need something providing
reliable pressure/tension. The leather will press the plate against
the nail heads. With a leather mount, the main transfer of sound is
probably through the nails rather than the plate/block contact. >>
While there is some transference of “vibration” by the plate and
nails, this is not the main manner in which the timbre, amplitude,
etc. is transferred.
> the leather mounting system can be perceived as
> a type of pre-set tone control, the same could be > said for a tone chamber.
> the wax is merely a means of keeping the metal reed-plate,
> which is in tight and riveted contact with the reed tongue, > in tight and direct contact with the wood of the block.
<<No, the wax is sealant. It is not strong enough to provide any
pressure/tightness worth noting: after all, it needs to retain its
plasticity.>>
Yes, the wax is sealant but the consistency of same can and should
provide reed plate attachment to cause the reed to speak optimally.
> you could use your fingers and press it tight, though wax
> does a better job sealing all the little leaks
> (how many accordion makers sand their reed blocks to a dead
> flat surface before installing the reeds? don't make > me laugh!)
<<Necessary for leather mounts, by the way.>>
> the best transmission of vibrations from the reed through
> the reed plate into the reed block would be to have maximum
> dead flat surfaces in full and direct contact
<<The question is whether you really want to have the best
transmission: the best transmission also sucks off energy and thus
dampens the vibration.>>
Only if the transmission device is truly inferior.
> but there is another factor here... please tell me where
> is the resonant soundboard or other resonant device that
> is now going to take these transmitted vibrations and
> convert them into audible sound? the reed block is solidly
> mounted and is not a resonant device (as far as i can tell)
<<Uh, I had the means to compare plastic and wooden reed block
accordions. No competition here. There will also be people that tell
you that the wood type and quality of a solid electric guitar makes a
world of difference even when everything else is the same. Knock on
the wood. Hear anything? If yes, it is a resonant device. >>
The reed block is a resonant component as well as an amplitude
component and is attached to a soundboard to expand those features---
subject of course to the quality of workmanship and materials
used….and the reed and plate.
>> the surface those blocks are firmly mounted against is usually
> an aluminum plate, plywood, or some such combination of
> decidedly non-musical materials (it's key purpose is
> to stay strong and flat) that is most definitely not
> crowned (like a typical soundboard) and very securely
> and rigidly held around it's perimeter... i doubt it
> will allow those vibrations to resonate out into the air...
<<Well, I discussed the reed blocks of an old Morino with my accordion
maker yesterday. They use about 4 different wood types for the
various parts of it, for different mechanical and acoustical
properties. It would be my guess that Venanzio Morino was no fool when
it came to building materials. And if you have heard accordions with
plastic reed blocks in direct comparison, I think you might reconsider
your stance that no resonance can be involved here. Anyway, according
to my accordion maker, the wax is dampening the vibrations of the reed
block.>>
Here again, the wax is a sealant and if rendered with skill will grant
a strong holding power to secure those reed plates to the block. This
bonding is what makes the difference in the partials being strong or
not, coupled with the wood material and it’s grain selection. This
bonding will be no different than when reeds are mounted on a single
or monolithically plate. But since much wax rendering is lacking in
these qualities, the skin/nail method holds a better second to the
single plate. Another reason is that so few techs cannot make reeds to
match the single plate process, and so the skin/nail gives the tech
ease in just replacing plates.
<<I am no longer sure about attenuating the higher partials. One
would probably have to do frequency analysis on the built-in parts
before and after refitting one instrument in one of the two possible
ways. It would be interesting to see just how much of an effect is
there. But at least according to my source (and he has learnt in the
Italian factories and seen a lot of instruments and arts), basically
all first-class soloist instruments are done with leather. There must
be some reason for that I would think.-- David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr.
15, 44793 Bochum >>
Durability and consistency of bonding, ease in individual reed plate
removal, closer adjacent placing of reed plates, and especially the
bypassing of any inferior wax whereas strong bonding would not prevail
nor last, are only several reasons. My time in factories were devoted
to this very subject and particularly the making of reeds by hand
tools and its transference of vibration through the materials.
whatsanike
"Ventura" <acco...@att.net> wrote in message
news:f2kWj.199855$D_3....@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
Nearly all sand the block to a dead flat surface. If you don't and the wax
is poured hot like the manufacturer does, It will run down under the plate.
So "don't make me laugh" means what?
> the best transmission of vibrations from the reed through
> the reed plate into the reed block would be to have maximum
> dead flat surfaces in full and direct contact
>
> but there is another factor here... please tell me where
> is the resonant soundboard or other resonant device that
> is now going to take these transmitted vibrations and
> convert them into audible sound? the reed block is solidly
> mounted and is not a resonant device (as far as i can tell)
> the surface those blocks are firmly mounted against is usually
> an aluminum plate, plywood, or some such combination of
> decidedly non-musical materials (it's key purpose is
> to stay strong and flat) that is most definitely not
> crowned (like a typical soundboard) and very securely
> and rigidly held around it's perimeter... i doubt it
> will allow those vibrations to resonate out into the air...
> from there you are into the body proper...
>
The chamber of the reed blok is the resonating surface, but alos the inside
of the vlave cover and the back plate behind the bass mechanism, as well as
hollow places in or connectied with the casing like the "venetian blind"
Crucianelli, and the Titano "Tube Chamber". try this. Put a flat piece of
newspaper insde your treble vavle cover (grill). this will cause the sound
to resonate against the flat newspaper as newspaper is very smooth.
> so the way sound vibrations transmit through solid materials
> vs soft materials, and where those vibrations end up and escape
> into the air (if anywhere) is the key... do the trapped vibrations
> act as a reduction vs. if they had been transmitted out the air
> hole directly from the reed? or is there no subtraction? is the
> tonal softness principally due to the soft leather sucking up
> a tiny amount of treble from the sound IN THE AIR nearby before
> the air escapes out the accordion? or is there some place the
> vibrations through the materials turn into audible sound? and where
> does that sound escape the accordion? is it in phase with the
> audible vibrations in the air swoosh as the pad lifts off the
> embouchure? or does it cause cancellations?
> Ventura
The leather acts as a damper more of the weaker overtones than the sronger
fundamental tone. So that the leather mounting damps the overtones and makes
the sound more mellow. DOH!
whatsanike
whatsanike
> Ventura <acco...@att.net> writes:
>
>> conducting a similar experiment for yourself
>> will quickly show the best transmission of sound
>> through solid objects is with a firm contact
>>
>> hard surface to hard surface
>>
>> anything coming between the contact area...
>> leather or cork gasket... air... skin... etc.
>> attenuates the high frequencies most noticeably
>> and all frequencies to some degree
>
> Sure, but nails are not elastic. To establish a firm reliable
> non-snaring contact of plate to block, you need something providing
> reliable pressure/tension. The leather will press the plate against the
> nail heads. With a leather mount, the main transfer of sound is
> probably through the nails rather than the plate/block contact.
>
Respectfully, this is nonsense. The influence of the nails on sound
transmission come form the nails pressing the plate tightly against whatever
is under the plates. When the wood shrinks, the nails will likely let go
unless they were cemented in. Screws are more reliable. Wasx itself when
poured hot, and not too soft when cool, will greatly contract as it cools
and will pull the plate tightly against the wood. In that case, nails are
redundant. Once the wood lets go, the nails are not needed for pressure,
although they help to position the plates when pouring the wax.
>> the leather mounting system can be perceived as
>> a type of pre-set tone control, the same could be
>> said for a tone chamber.
>>
>> the wax is merely a means of keeping the metal reed-plate,
>> which is in tight and riveted contact with the reed tongue,
>> in tight and direct contact with the wood of the block.
>
> No, the wax is sealant. It is not strong enough to provide any
> pressure/tightness worth noting: after all, it needs to retain its
> plasticity.
>
That depends on what kind of wax you are using. I mix my own wax. It is very
good at holding the reeds as described above. you have to know how to make
the recipe and then how to use the stuff. The wax you buy from suppliers is
not the same, and it is true what you say about that wax, esp[ecially if you
don't pour it extremely hot using an alcohol flame and v-spoon..
It is however easy to mold reed blocks from plastic that have a widening
cavity between the reed chambers as Delicia is using now. This helps to
equalize the volume of sound between the lower reeds and the higherr-pitched
ones. Plasic is not a lot worse tha wood. Even paper can form a resonant
chamber. the important thing is, that the inside of the chamber be smooth.
The higher-end accordions therefore have the inside of the wooden chambers
shellacked which provides a smoother surface.
> Anyway, according to my accordion maker, the wax is dampening the
> vibrations of the reed block.
Maybe his wax is. Mine doesn't
>
> I am no longer sure about attenuating the higher partials. One would
> probably have to do frequency analysis on the built-in parts before and
> after refitting one instrument in one of the two possible ways.
>
> It would be interesting to see just how much of an effect is there. But
> at least according to my source (and he has learnt in the Italian
> factories and seen a lot of instruments and arts), basically all
> first-class soloist instruments are done with leather. There must be
> some reason for that I would think.
>
It costs more and they can afford it, is probably the main reason, in
addition to damping the harsh partials.
whatsanike
This time there is nothing here that I would fundamentally disagree with.
Well-made wax when properly applied gives very superior bonding and that
makes a lot of difference in the strength of the sound. It also will
transmit the partials much better than leather mounting, but some people
don't wnat the partials. So mere convenience is not the only reason leather
is used. Yes, the leather makes it convenient to work on a single reed
plate, without having to pour wax, and yes, it can transmit sound much
better than poor cheap wax applied without getting it very hot with a flame,
provided that the means of securing the plate over the leather is airtight
and has enough pressure.
Incidentally, besides wax or leather, I have seen screws washers and
lacquer used. I have seen wax that was very hard like shellac. I have even
seen a very tough rubber-like material that looked just like wax. I never
figured out an easy way to get those plates out of a Hohner from the 60's. I
heated it and it just stretched and wouldn't let go. It was so strong that
it cound break the wood.
When I pour my best wax, the plate won't come out without cutting or melting
the wax.
David Kastrup
> "David Kastrup" <d...@gnu.org> wrote in message
> news:85y76e0...@lola.goethe.zz...
>> Ventura <acco...@att.net> writes:
>>
>>> conducting a similar experiment for yourself
>>> will quickly show the best transmission of sound
>>> through solid objects is with a firm contact
>>>
>>> hard surface to hard surface
>>>
>>> anything coming between the contact area...
>>> leather or cork gasket... air... skin... etc.
>>> attenuates the high frequencies most noticeably
>>> and all frequencies to some degree
>>
>> Sure, but nails are not elastic. To establish a firm reliable
>> non-snaring contact of plate to block, you need something providing
>> reliable pressure/tension. The leather will press the plate against the
>> nail heads. With a leather mount, the main transfer of sound is
>> probably through the nails rather than the plate/block contact.
>>
>
> Respectfully, this is nonsense. The influence of the nails on sound
> transmission come form the nails pressing the plate tightly against whatever
> is under the plates.
"Tightly" requires tension, tension requires elasticity. While the
engineer will declare the nails quite more "elastic" than wood or
leather (meaning that minimal deformations are not permanent, but return
to an almost unchanged state, so the nails can actually transmit sound
reasonable well), the amount of deformation is minimal. Maintaining a
tight fit that transmits vibration well and consistently requires
counterpressure from the material below the plate.
Whatever.
--
David Kastrup
David Kastrup
Hm? "Leather will dampen the overtones" vs "Leather will dampen the
vibration less"? That's a contradiction unless one wants to go the path
of "leather will dampen the overtones more than the fundamental
vibration" or something.
--
David Kastrup
Ventura
stuck on the vibration to sound section...
now in other instruments, the bridge is very
(to my mind) similar to the reedblocks i've seen...
a dense, rigidly mounted and rather inflexible device...
good, in other words, for passing along the vibrations,
but neither retaining, impeding, or broadcasting them...
then on to the soundboard, which is a lightweight, sprung,
flexible device made of very specific material...
there is no equivalent to a crowned soundboard in an Accordion
Spruce being the overwhelming best by far of all materials...
certain cuts and types of Mahogany and Cedar do fairly well
in Guitars (not Piano's or anything else)
and other woods are all pretty dull... metal is terrible...
between the bridge and soundboard, there is no dampening
gasket material at all, and the strings must have downward
bearing force to insure the vibrations go into the bridge
so with leather reed mounting, you have that leather
gasket impeding the transmission of vibrations, and
then the reebblock of course rests on another thin
leather gasket between it and the holes of the plate,
which further impedes any flow of vibration
i will agree that there is a huge difference between a fine
reedblock hewn from a solid piece of hardwood, and the little
popsickle stick reedblocks so common today... there also seems
to be a lot of choice of base materials for the reedblocks, as
i've seen Walnut, Oak, and Maple as well as nondescript woods
(i mean to say the piece of wood on the long bottom of the
reedblock that mates to the holes in the plate)
i'm guessing the various materials and styles of blocks has
good reason to exist, and in the case of very hardwood, well
shaped chambers, and hewn blocks, an amplification of the
vibrations in each tiny chamber would result?
at any rate, i don't have the equipment to isolate, measure
and detect how much sound a reedblock can project while mounted,
though pinging the reeds by hand suggests it's negligible
pinging the reeds while holding a block in ones hand doesn't
have much sound either... put your ear to the wood and ping,
now you have something to hear
so i still feel all the different soft elements alter tone
primarily by subtraction, while dense, hard elements alter
tone by reflection and phase effects
And David, during the long period Morino's and other high
end Hohners were made in Italy under contract, there
could have been over 20 types of wood in the construction
of a single accordion, as there were in the Excelsiors of
the same period.
Ciao
Ventura
David Kastrup
> at any rate, i don't have the equipment to isolate, measure
> and detect how much sound a reedblock can project while mounted,
> though pinging the reeds by hand suggests it's negligible
Well, what my accordion maker used for a demonstration was to ping a
reed plate enclosed in thumb and index finger (corresponding to the wax)
versus pinging a reed plate held in a tweezer (corresponding to the
leather mount). Whether that is an accurate correspondence may well be
questioned, but the difference in sound and sustaining was obvious (and
not really surprising).
> And David, during the long period Morino's and other high
> end Hohners were made in Italy under contract, there
> could have been over 20 types of wood in the construction
> of a single accordion, as there were in the Excelsiors of
> the same period.
And I bet that some of those choices were dictated by "sound reasons"
instead of just mechanical properties making them easier to the woodwork
with.
--
David Kastrup
DoN. Nichols
> this is an interesting thread, but i still get
> stuck on the vibration to sound section...
>
> now in other instruments, the bridge is very
> (to my mind) similar to the reedblocks i've seen...
> a dense, rigidly mounted and rather inflexible device...
>
> good, in other words, for passing along the vibrations,
> but neither retaining, impeding, or broadcasting them...
>
> then on to the soundboard, which is a lightweight, sprung,
> flexible device made of very specific material...
>
> there is no equivalent to a crowned soundboard in an Accordion
Agreed!
You want a simple way to demonstrate this? Play a note, and then
suddenly remove all bellows pressure. The reed will keep vibrating for
a while, but you can barely hear it, if at all. You are most likely to
hear really low pitched reeds if any at all. So -- the sound transmitted
through the wood is minimal.
The sound of a free reed instrument is comprised of:
1) The airflow through the reed chopped into pulses by the
reed's opening and closing the hole through the reed plate.
2) Shaping of the sound thus produced by the size and shape of
the reed chamber.
3) Farther shaping of the sound by various things through which it
passes (in the air, not in the wood) on the way out of the
instrument. In an accordion, this can include the cassotto if
so fitted.
In an English made English system concertina, there is no
question of wax or leather for mounting the reeds. Each reed is in its
own brass or bronze carrier -- shaped like a shoe, and dovetailed into
the reed pan (the wood equivalent of the reed block in an accordion).
Some concertina are harsh, and some are mellow. The harsh ones
are favored by those who play in sessions, the mellow ones by solo
players.
The primary difference between them is the material and the
configuration of the end plates.
The very harsh ones are metal ends with large holes through
which the sound passes.
Medium ones have wooden ends with similar sized holes. The
thickness of the wood forming the holes through which the sound passes
attenuates the higher overtones.
Mellow ones are also wooden ends but with very fine fretwork.
The smaller holes, with similar thickness of wood, provides greater
attenuation of the higher overtones. The total area of open holes is
the same as in the instruments above, but it is spread among a greater
number of smaller holes.
And the most mellow have a wooden baffle under the fine fretwork
wood ends to make the sound have to travel a more convoluted path.
To prove that it is only the end plate material and shape which
affects the sound, two instruments from near the same period but with
vastly different endplate construction can often allow interchanging of
the reed pans with reeds. When you do this, the reeds and reed pan from
the previously harsh instrument, when installed in the mellow
instrument's body will become mellow, while the reeds and reedpan from
the mellow instrument will become harsh in the other instrument's body.
Since in all cases, the mounting of the reeds to the reedpans
was not disturbed, (and all were dovetailed into the reed pan -- no wax,
no leather)
If you want to see what the reed mounting is like in an English
construction concertina, you can visit my web page (URL below), and
navigate to the "TOUR of a CONCERTINA" sub-page, and to the "Reedpan"
sub-page from there.
Now -- there *can* be a selection of reeds which will be more
mellow with no changes in the rest of the instrument. That is when the
more modern steel reeds are replaced with the older brass (or probably
really bronze) reeds.
Squeeze On,
DoN.
--
Email: <dnic...@d-and-d.com> | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---
DoN. Nichols
> Ventura <acco...@att.net> writes:
>
>> at any rate, i don't have the equipment to isolate, measure
>> and detect how much sound a reedblock can project while mounted,
>> though pinging the reeds by hand suggests it's negligible
>
> Well, what my accordion maker used for a demonstration was to ping a
> reed plate enclosed in thumb and index finger (corresponding to the wax)
> versus pinging a reed plate held in a tweezer (corresponding to the
> leather mount). Whether that is an accurate correspondence may well be
> questioned, but the difference in sound and sustaining was obvious (and
> not really surprising).
The sustaining is simply physics. If the reed plate is firmly
anchored to a much greater mass at both ends then all the energy in the
deflected reed is retained in the reed other than a tiny amount lost to
heat in the flexing of the reed near the root end. If it is not firmly
mounted at both ends, then a lot of the energy in the reed goes into
moving the reed plate instead -- and that is a major waste of energy
from the reed. Either the wax or the leather with hold downs is
sufficient to do the task well.
And I keep seeing mention of *nails* in the reed plate to the
reed block. I've never seen them used with leather. My examples of
leather were:
1) An Italian made English system concertina which used accordion
reeds -- but they were held in place by two sood screws through
notches in the ends of the plate.
2) A Arno Arnold Chemnitzer concertina (much closer to accordion
construction) which uses special screws for the purpose --
screws with no heads, but with the shank bent into an 'L' which
is rotated over the reed plate at the proper depth of the screw
into the reed block. To remove one of these reed plates, you
rotate the screw typically about 90 degrees (and no more than
180 degrees) to swing the 'L' clear of the top of the reed plate
so you can lift it clear.
The only use of nails that I have seen was to hold reed plates
in place prior to waxing in place.
whatsanike
exact same reed on the smae sized and shpaed chamber in the same reed block
using leather and wax and looking at the waveform on a computer screen. you
would then see the damn overtones in each case and make your comparison.
whatsanike
whatsanike
"DoN. Nichols" <dnic...@d-and-d.com> wrote in message
news:slrng2pbpj....@Katana.d-and-d.com...
the screws you mention. To remove the plate, the L nail can be rotated
rather than pulled all the way out. I have also seen nails used. These are
often cemented in place and very hard to pull up. Screws and washers are a
favorite.
Ventura
DoN noted something that me slap my forehead:
> You want a simple way to demonstrate this? Play a note, and then
> suddenly remove all bellows pressure. The reed will keep vibrating for
> a while, but you can barely hear it, if at all. You are most likely to
> hear really low pitched reeds if any at all. So -- the sound transmitted
> through the wood is minimal.
now why couldn't i think of that?
lol
i'm gonna try and stop over in June sometime
while i still have these Rolands so you can
hear them... i'm curious as to how accurate
(or not) some of the more eclectic reed tones
are, in your opinion.
hope things are going well for you 2
Ciao
Ventura
Ventura
DoN. Nichols wrote:
> The only use of nails that I have seen was to hold reed plates
> in place prior to waxing in place.
>
i've seen those also... they scare the heck out of me,
as they clearly pre-suppose the wax will always remain intact
since eventually the main thing holding IN the nail would
be the wax
i can see using them, but i'd then remove them after one
pass with wax, then fill the resulting spots...
it's bad enough to have old wax crack and crumble,
even a reed plate come loose or fall out... but to have
a certain death for the Bellows if a single nail
ever slips free built in to your Accordion!
ciao
Ventura
DoN. Nichols
> hi DoN,
>
> DoN noted something that me slap my forehead:
>
>> You want a simple way to demonstrate this? Play a note, and then
>> suddenly remove all bellows pressure. The reed will keep vibrating for
>> a while, but you can barely hear it, if at all. You are most likely to
>> hear really low pitched reeds if any at all. So -- the sound transmitted
>> through the wood is minimal.
>
> now why couldn't i think of that?
Because you aren't used to stopping pressure on the bellows
unless you stop pressing the keys too. :-)
For that matter the reeds will continue to vibrate for a while
after the keys are released as well.
> lol
>
> i'm gonna try and stop over in June sometime
> while i still have these Rolands so you can
> hear them... i'm curious as to how accurate
> (or not) some of the more eclectic reed tones
> are, in your opinion.
Some of them attempt to be concertina tones? It will be
interesting to see whether they are trying to duplicate Chemnitzer
concertina tones (as used in polka bands), or English construction ones.
If you hear a wet tone, it is almost certainly the Chemnitzers, as
almost all English concertina have only one reed per button per
direction. :-)
> hope things are going well for you 2
Pretty good at the moment.
How about you?
Johann Pascher
> (too) near Washington D.C. |http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
> --- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---
Hi Don!
basically i agree with your fine explanation!
Still the truth is more complex as we never can explain or demonstrate
correctly.
because there is no way to demonstrate it because in reality the
acoustic sound is present in any time and gives some input on the
complete construction again.
so the wooden parts are in vibration but not manly through direct
transmission from the reed to the reed block and so on.
The mounting of the reed has an very important effect on overtone
generation, but the situation is much more complex as discussed.
All would be easy to explain if "only" the reed tongue is vibrating
or in motion at any time.
I could demonstrate the situation under labor condition to some
extent.
First the amount of change in sound or in the amount of overtones is
not much, still for me a very important part oft the character of the
individual instrument.
So some people could say there is no difference because the don't hear
the difference.
Back to labor condition:
If i mount a reed the same reed on the same chamber and with constant
air pressure then:
If the reed is mounted with different methods i can produce different
tone spectrum's. (very easy to show this to any one if he comes around
to me).
It will make a difference if the screws are positioned differently or
the reed is only waxed to the chamber. (so it is imaginable that long
plates or the mounting like on English concertinas do have some effect
as well)
The type of leather or if no leather is used at all only screws do
have nearly no effect, so it is nearly the same if wax and screws are
used.
Very important is that not every chamber size an reed type has the
same noticeable amount of reaction so with some combinations of
chambersize and reed type there is nearly no effect and on others
there is very much. Under labor conditions i can look for combinations
with big noticeable combinations and do the changes in motion with
this combinations.
So conclusion even if a technician may think he changes nothing if he
makes change in the way the reed are mounted, in the end there will be
a noticeable difference, and it will be difficult to pin it down to
the things he did to the instrument, in most cases not reversible!
Sure it always is some compromise to get a instrument back to working
condition but to all people who do repairs on accordions think twice
before you change anything, also if you may think it makes no
difference.
David Kastrup
> hi DoN,
>
> DoN noted something that me slap my forehead:
>
>> You want a simple way to demonstrate this? Play a note, and then
>> suddenly remove all bellows pressure. The reed will keep vibrating for
>> a while, but you can barely hear it, if at all. You are most likely to
>> hear really low pitched reeds if any at all. So -- the sound transmitted
>> through the wood is minimal.
Or the reeds don't keep vibrating for a while... After all, this is
what the leather argument of my accordion maker claimed.
Now if anyone has both a leather-mounted and a wax-mounted accordion at
hand to compare...
--
David Kastrup
Ventura
David Kastrup wrote:
>
> Or the reeds don't keep vibrating for a while...
they definitely do... now that i've been reminded...
on a tuning bench where you can give intermittent shots
of air to a reed your eyes will easily see the silent
motion during the time it takes the reed to come to rest,
and just thinking about it too, consider a tuning fork
or any musical metal you've ever messed with and how long
sprung steel or symmetrical steel will vibrate below the
audible level fro quite some time...
pop a tuning fork, hold it for 30 seconds or till you can't
really hear anything, then touch it to a soundboardlike
something or a wineglass and you'll hear the energy that
is still hiding in it
musical metal running free doesn't have brakes
ciao
Ventura
David Kastrup
> David Kastrup wrote:
>>
>> Or the reeds don't keep vibrating for a while...
>
> they definitely do... now that i've been reminded...
> on a tuning bench where you can give intermittent shots
> of air to a reed your eyes will easily see the silent
> motion during the time it takes the reed to come to rest,
> and just thinking about it too, consider a tuning fork
> or any musical metal you've ever messed with and how long
> sprung steel or symmetrical steel will vibrate below the
> audible level fro quite some time...
Yes, if it is not dampened...
> pop a tuning fork, hold it for 30 seconds or till you can't
> really hear anything, then touch it to a soundboardlike
> something or a wineglass and you'll hear the energy that
> is still hiding in it
Now cast the base of the tuning fork in wax and try again for the same
amount of time.
> musical metal running free doesn't have brakes
The whole point was that suspended in wax it is not running free...
Anyway, this discussion is going nowhere.
--
David Kastrup
Ventura
>>hope things are going well for you 2
> >
> Pretty good at the moment.
>
> How about you?
>
> Squeeze On,
> DoN.
busy... interesting... Maryland Accordion Club had a fun
morning Wednesday with Maryland Public TV for the Artscape show...
http://www.mpt.org/artworks/thisweek/
btw, the show often airs again
Saturday at 8:30am... channel 22 Annapolis, 67 Baltimore
and another out of Frederick channel 62
playing at Wine in the Woods up on the Merriwether post pavilion
grounds in Columbia saturday
have a gig in Nashville next weekend
and the basement had an inch of water from that huge storm (lol)
but everything is on wheels down there so no big deal
Ciao
Ventura
snavoyosky
On 2008-05-15, Ventura <accord...@att.net> wrote:
> this is an interesting thread, but i still get
> stuck on the vibration to sound section...
> now in other instruments, the bridge is very
> (to my mind) similar to the reedblocks i've seen...
> a dense, rigidly mounted and rather inflexible device...
> good, in other words, for passing along the vibrations,
> but neither retaining, impeding, or broadcasting them...
> then on to the soundboard, which is a lightweight, sprung,
> flexible device made of very specific material...
> there is no equivalent to a crowned soundboard in an Accordion
Agreed!
You want a simple way to demonstrate this? Play a note, and
then
suddenly remove all bellows pressure. The reed will keep vibrating
for
a while, but you can barely hear it, if at all. You are most likely
to
hear really low pitched reeds if any at all. So -- the sound
transmitted
through the wood is minimal. >>
Don, pick an acoustic guitar string and close off the resonant hole.
Same difference….and the guitar has a soundboard (flat or curved),
chamber, and a sound post. You are demonstrating a ‘vibration’ just as
I did here and neither produces the wanted ‘sound’ in that
manner….without resonance and airflow.
A provino is yet another example of your demonstration when the reed
is stopped (by valve) and continues to sing, being “audible” only by
size and shape.
<< The sound of a free reed instrument is comprised of:
1) The airflow through the reed chopped into pulses by the
reed's opening and closing the hole through the reed plate.
2) Shaping of the sound thus produced by the size and shape of
the reed chamber. >>
“Shaping” has no technical term significance here. If you are
referring to “resonance” then I agree in part, for other conditions in
that size and shape come into play. But you are more into Concertinas
and not into reed block chambers.
<<3) Farther shaping of the sound by various things through which
it
passes (in the air, not in the wood) on the way out of the
instrument. In an accordion, this can include the cassotto
if
so fitted. >>
Wood still enters the criteria just like in the guitar in the demo
above as long as one has resonance established for the sound
initially. When you speak of ‘air’ then it means ‘sound’ but
‘vibration’ has to do with the materials, and sympathetic ones at
that.
<< In an English made English system concertina, there is no
question of wax or leather for mounting the reeds. Each reed is in
its
own brass or bronze carrier -- shaped like a shoe, and dovetailed
into
the reed pan (the wood equivalent of the reed block in an accordion).
>>
As previously stated in a post, the secured plate (carrier) must be
adhered securely, which is paramount. Again the wax or skin is merely
meant to firstly seal the plate holding a reed---securely --by quality
wax ---or the nail in the case of the skin. Neither transmits the
sound of the reed tongue. The fasteners are just that—fasteners. The
better the fastener the better the timbre. The steel is harmonic and
produces according to its makeup (brittleness, hardness, etc.)
The principles you note regarding concertinas are similar to
accordions insofar as the grille materials. Accordion grilles have
been made of metal, wood, plastic, and aluminum and each has their
characteristics as you stated for concertinas. But that applies to
the outgoing ‘sound’ causing sympathetic vibrations in the various
materials, grille design and depth, all similar to the interior of the
accordion beginning at the reed tongue “vibrating” to make a ‘sound’
through the unstopped air flow thereby also vibrating the materials
which were constructed for resonance.
Alan Moore
wrote:
>On 2008-05-16, Ventura <acco...@att.net> wrote:
>> hi DoN,
>>
>> DoN noted something that me slap my forehead:
>>
>>> You want a simple way to demonstrate this? Play a note, and then
>>> suddenly remove all bellows pressure. The reed will keep vibrating for
>>> a while, but you can barely hear it, if at all. You are most likely to
>>> hear really low pitched reeds if any at all. So -- the sound transmitted
>>> through the wood is minimal.
>>
>> now why couldn't i think of that?
>
> Because you aren't used to stopping pressure on the bellows
>unless you stop pressing the keys too. :-)
>
> For that matter the reeds will continue to vibrate for a while
>after the keys are released as well.
I'm glad you mentioned that last.
I have an old Scandalli (ca 1950). The lowest bass reeds are so
massive compared to the instrument that I can feel them vibrating
after the sound has died out. The effect was quite startling the first
time I played it.
Al Moore
whatsanike
would not cuase any damage, and if one did the bellows could be repaired. I
have never heard or seen any damage from a nail coming loose, or even one
coming loose from the wood and wax. If the nails are tight in the wood, they
should be left in. An exception which occurs to this rule, would be when the
nail is pressing the plate so tight against the foot of the carrier as to
cause warping. That nail should definitely be taken out and the block
treated for warping. What often happens is that the wood shrinks and the
nails get too loose to stay in place. They are then usuelss and should be
removed when waxing.
DoN. Nichols
> On May 15, 5:18?pm, "DoN. Nichols" <dnich...@d-and-d.com> wrote:
>
>> On 2008-05-15, Ventura <accord...@att.net> wrote:
>>> this is an interesting thread, but i still get
>>> stuck on the vibration to sound section...
[ ... ]
>>> there is no equivalent to a crowned soundboard in an Accordion
>> Agreed!
>> You want a simple way to demonstrate this? Play a note, and then
>> suddenly remove all bellows pressure. The reed will keep vibrating for
>> a while, but you can barely hear it, if at all. You are most likely to
>> hear really low pitched reeds if any at all. So -- the sound
>> transmitted through the wood is minimal.
> Don, pick an acoustic guitar string and close off the resonant hole.
> Same difference?.and the guitar has a soundboard (flat or curved),
> chamber, and a sound post. You are demonstrating a ?vibration? just as
> I did here and neither produces the wanted ?sound? in that
> manner?.without resonance and airflow.
Hmm ... first off -- how do you quickly cover the sound hole of
a guitar -- it has the strings passing over it. At best, you can slide
something across over it and hope to not hit the strings thus damping
them.
Second -- the strings vibrate the bridge. The bridge vibrates
the soundboard (in which is the sound hole). Placing a hand over the
hole also damps the vibrations of the strings via the path back to the
bridge.
Third -- The soundboard acts as an amplifier -- it provides a
large thin surface which couples to the air. There is no such
equivalent in the concertina or the accordion. Everything is thick to
make it rigid, and not constructed to couple vibrations to the air.
And -- a guitar does not have a sound post, unlike a violin.
> A provino is yet another example of your demonstration when the reed
> is stopped (by valve) and continues to sing, being ?audible? only by
> size and shape.
My test fixture for concertina reeds does not have a valve under
a standard sized reed chamber. Instead, the reed chamber is quite large
(about 150mm x 100mm x 50mm), the chamber is made of 8mm thick Plexiglass
(acryllic), and the air flow comes from a distant vacuum pump through a
small nylon tube -- and just before entering the chamber, it is
controlled via a needle valve which allows me to control the flow rate
of the air. You are not going to convince me that the air flow through
that tiny needle valve (at most 1mm when fully open) is going to conduct
enough sound (even if it could easily get through the walls of the nylon
tube) to make a difference whether it is open or closed. The only thing
that it changes is the flow of air through the reed. It is the
interruption of the airflow as the reed blocks 99% of the area of the
slot in the reed carrier (or reed plate) which produces the fundamental
note.
>
>><< The sound of a free reed instrument is comprised of:
>> 1) The airflow through the reed chopped into pulses by the
>> reed's opening and closing the hole through the reed plate.
>> 2) Shaping of the sound thus produced by the size and shape of
>> the reed chamber. >>
>
>
> ?Shaping? has no technical term significance here. If you are
> referring to ?resonance? then I agree in part, for other conditions in
> that size and shape come into play. But you are more into Concertinas
> and not into reed block chambers.
I am not referring to "resonance" (at least to the fundamental),
because the reed chambers are all too small to have more than a tiny
percentage of a wavelength of the fundamental note produced by the reed.
And in particular, the concertina reed chambers are so
constructed as to have only the top and bottom parallel. The sides are
formed by radial ribs from near the center of the reed pan, with a
partition used to close off any of the length so formed not needed to
mount the reeds themselves. (Note that the smaller the volume of the
chamber, the quicker the reed speaks in a concertina.)
However -- there are resonance effects for the *overtones* --
more so in the endbox than in the reed chambers.
But mostly, the "shaping" to which I refer is the attenuation of
higher harmonics -- more cancellation than reenforcement by resonance.
>><<3) Farther shaping of the sound by various things through which
>> it
>> passes (in the air, not in the wood) on the way out of the
>> instrument. In an accordion, this can include the cassotto
>> if
>> so fitted. >>
>
>
> Wood still enters the criteria just like in the guitar in the demo
> above as long as one has resonance established for the sound
> initially. When you speak of ?air? then it means ?sound? but
> ?vibration? has to do with the materials, and sympathetic ones at
> that.
Sound is by definition vibration of *air* coupled to the
diaphragms in the ears. Vibration of other materials such as wood is
not sound -- though it can *produce* sound by causing the air in contact
with it to vibrate.
The wood of concertina and accordion construction is too thick
to serve as a reasonable coupling of vibration to air. It is made
massive relative to the reed to minimize the vibration of the mounting
surface, and to keep the maximum energy in the reed itself.
And how much surface area is present in a harmonica to couple
sound to air by vibration? You stop breathing through the harmonica and
it goes silent -- even if you make this change purely by lung control
and not by closing the path of air to the reed in the harmonica.
>> << In an English made English system concertina, there is no
>> question of wax or leather for mounting the reeds. Each reed is in
>> its
>> own brass or bronze carrier -- shaped like a shoe, and dovetailed
>> into
>> the reed pan (the wood equivalent of the reed block in an accordion).
>>>>
>
>
> As previously stated in a post, the secured plate (carrier) must be
> adhered securely, which is paramount. Again the wax or skin is merely
> meant to firstly seal the plate holding a reed---securely --by quality
> wax ---or the nail in the case of the skin.
And neither the nail and leather nor the wax are necessary, as
shown by the English concertina which uses neither. The dovetail design
is sufficient to firmly mount the reed carrier to the reed pan -- to
*keep* the carrier from wasting energy by bleeding off the energy from
the vibrating reed.
> Neither transmits the
> sound of the reed tongue. The fasteners are just that?fasteners. The
> better the fastener the better the timbre. The steel is harmonic and
> produces according to its makeup (brittleness, hardness, etc.)
And the vibration of the steel through the slot controls the
flow of the air -- breaking it up into pulses instead of a smooth flow
through the reed plate's slots.
What is the resonator in a Jew's Harp -- it is nothing but a
reed in a mounting frame which allows it to be held near the mouth (the
frame against the teeth), and you can pluck the reed with your thumb.
If you are breathing through the reed at this time, you get a loud
sound. If you are not breathing through it there is very little sound.
This limits the things involved to a minimum.
[ ... long diescription and comparion snipped ... ]
> The principles you note regarding concertinas are similar to
> accordions insofar as the grille materials. Accordion grilles have
> been made of metal, wood, plastic, and aluminum and each has their
> characteristics as you stated for concertinas. But that applies to
> the outgoing ?sound? causing sympathetic vibrations in the various
> materials, grille design and depth, all similar to the interior of the
> accordion beginning at the reed tongue ?vibrating? to make a ?sound?
> through the unstopped air flow thereby also vibrating the materials
> which were constructed for resonance.
The instrument is at its best when the *only* vibration is that
of the reed, and the air which passes through it. It is unlike a
stringed instrument whose design is to couple the tiny vibration of the
string to the air via a soundboard.
Enjoy,
David Kastrup
Well, even if we suppose that a longer sustained vibration is not
audible in itself: _if_ it is there, it means that the reed will respond
better for a longer time when it _does_ get played again. So things
like repeated fast runs or broken chords could have a better response.
Again, this is just idle speculation of mine: nothing I'd have heard
from somebody who would have a solid body of experience with the
internals of many instruments.
snavoyosky
On 2008-05-16, snavoyosky <SNavoyo...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On May 15, 5:18?pm, "DoN. Nichols" <dnich...@d-and-d.com> wrote:
>> On 2008-05-15, Ventura <accord...@att.net> wrote:
>>> this is an interesting thread, but i still get
>>> stuck on the vibration to sound section...
[ ... ]
>>> there is no equivalent to a crowned soundboard in an Accordion
>> Agreed!
>> You want a simple way to demonstrate this? Play a note, and then
>> suddenly remove all bellows pressure. The reed will keep vibrating for
>> a while, but you can barely hear it, if at all. You are most likely to
>> hear really low pitched reeds if any at all. So -- the sound
>> transmitted through the wood is minimal.
> Don, pick an acoustic guitar string and close off the resonant hole.
> Same difference?.and the guitar has a soundboard (flat or curved),
> chamber, and a sound post. You are demonstrating a ?vibration? just as
> I did here and neither produces the wanted ?sound? in that
> manner?.without resonance and airflow.
<< Hmm ... first off -- how do you quickly cover the sound hole
of
a guitar -- it has the strings passing over it. At best, you can
slide
something across over it and hope to not hit the strings thus damping
them.>>
Why quibble over the ‘how to’ and just recognize the sound wave being
stopped.
<<Second -- the strings vibrate the bridge. The bridge
vibrates
the soundboard (in which is the sound hole). Placing a hand over the
hole also damps the vibrations of the strings via the path back to
the
bridge.>>
Again you are placing importance on ‘vibration’ over ‘sound’ and not
to which I was referring. So continuing with the acoustic guitar, then
you fail to mention that the opposite end of the string (the saddle)
also vibrates the neck as well. But as with your bellows stoppage
demo, stopping the hole with the hand, as you offer, does not dampen
the strings from ‘vibration’ as they still continue—but the ‘sound’ is
curtailed in like manner. That was my point.
<< Third -- The soundboard acts as an amplifier -- it provides
a
large thin surface which couples to the air. There is no such
equivalent in the concertina or the accordion. Everything is thick
to
make it rigid, and not constructed to couple vibrations to the air.>>
The main purpose of the bridge on an acoustic guitar is to transfer
the vibration from the strings to the soundboard, which vibrates the
air inside of the guitar, thereby amplifying the sound produced by the
strings.
The sound board is typically made of acoustic woods such as spruce to
transfer the strings vibration to the air within the guitar body.
‘Sound’ is further shaped by the characteristics of the guitar body's
resonant cavity.Cut that resonance and you have nothing more than a
‘modern day’ (electric) guitar of strings vibrating over a solid body
and producing a faint string sound.
I agree that the concertina cannot produce this air resonance, but the
quality accordion is made this way.
<<
<< My test fixture for concertina reeds does not have a valve
under
a standard sized reed chamber. Instead, the reed chamber is quite
large
(about 150mm x 100mm x 50mm), the chamber is made of 8mm thick
Plexiglass
(acryllic), and the air flow comes from a distant vacuum pump through
a
small nylon tube -- and just before entering the chamber, it is
controlled via a needle valve which allows me to control the flow
rate
of the air. You are not going to convince me that the air flow
through
that tiny needle valve (at most 1mm when fully open) is going to
conduct
enough sound (even if it could easily get through the walls of the
nylon
tube) to make a difference whether it is open or closed. The only
thing
that it changes is the flow of air through the reed. It is the
interruption of the airflow as the reed blocks 99% of the area of the
slot in the reed carrier (or reed plate) which produces the
fundamental
note.>>
You are taking another path when you bring a self-made vacuum pump to
test your concertina reeds when the poster referred to accordion
reeds. I made reference to my provino as it somewhat duplicates the
accordion as it uses a large bellows for complete air control, as well
as a wood reed block chamber with soundboard, etc. So to what I state
may not be workable with your tuning device as it works with your
concertina, but I have been addressing the functions of the accordion
as requested by the original poster.
<<
>><< The sound of a free reed instrument is comprised of:
>> 1) The airflow through the reed chopped into pulses by the
>> reed's opening and closing the hole through the reed plate.
>> 2) Shaping of the sound thus produced by the size and shape of
>> the reed chamber. >>
> “Shaping” has no technical term significance here. If you are
> referring to “resonance” then I agree in part, for other conditions in
> that size and shape come into play. But you are more into Concertinas
> and not into reed block chambers.
I am not referring to "resonance" (at least to the
fundamental),
because the reed chambers are all too small to have more than a tiny
percentage of a wavelength of the fundamental note produced by the
reed.
And in particular, the concertina reed chambers are so
constructed as to have only the top and bottom parallel. The sides
are
formed by radial ribs from near the center of the reed pan, with a
partition used to close off any of the length so formed not needed to
mount the reeds themselves. (Note that the smaller the volume of the
chamber, the quicker the reed speaks in a concertina.)
However -- there are resonance effects for the *overtones* --
more so in the endbox than in the reed chambers.
But mostly, the "shaping" to which I refer is the attenuation
of
higher harmonics -- more cancellation than reenforcement by
resonance.>>
All this is well and good, but the topic is now sliding from
‘accordion’ to ‘concertina’ and we both know some principles can be
different…just as their construction is different.
>><<3) Farther shaping of the sound by various things through which
>> it
>> passes (in the air, not in the wood) on the way out of the
>> instrument. In an accordion, this can include the cassotto
>> if
>> so fitted. >>
> Wood still enters the criteria just like in the guitar in the demo
> above as long as one has resonance established for the sound
> initially. When you speak of “air” then it means “sound” but
> “vibration” has to do with the materials, and sympathetic ones at
> that.
<< Sound is by definition vibration of *air* coupled to the
diaphragms in the ears. Vibration of other materials such as wood is
not sound -- though it can *produce* sound by causing the air in
contact
with it to vibrate.>>
Precisely as I have been stating. (see also the guitar comments)
<< The wood of concertina and accordion construction is too
thick
to serve as a reasonable coupling of vibration to air. It is made
massive relative to the reed to minimize the vibration of the
mounting
surface, and to keep the maximum energy in the reed itself.>>
As I have made accordions and not concertinas, perhaps it’s true in
your choice of instrument, but I can testify that accordion wood is
not that thick in the critical components for amplifying and
controlling the quality of sound. There’s a vast difference between
the concertina of the past and the evolution of the accordion.
<< And how much surface area is present in a harmonica to
couple
sound to air by vibration? You stop breathing through the harmonica
and
it goes silent -- even if you make this change purely by lung control
and not by closing the path of air to the reed in the harmonica.>>
Stop breathing through any wind instrument and it goes silent, Don.
Your point is moot.
<<
<<
>> In an English made English system concertina, there is no
>> question of wax or leather for mounting the reeds. Each reed is in
>> its
>> own brass or bronze carrier -- shaped like a shoe, and dovetailed
>> into
>> the reed pan (the wood equivalent of the reed block in an accordion).
> As previously stated in a post, the secured plate (carrier) must be
> adhered securely, which is paramount. Again the wax or skin is merely
> meant to firstly seal the plate holding a reed---securely --by quality
> wax ---or the nail in the case of the skin.
And neither the nail and leather nor the wax are necessary,
as
shown by the English concertina which uses neither. The dovetail
design
is sufficient to firmly mount the reed carrier to the reed pan -- to
*keep* the carrier from wasting energy by bleeding off the energy
from
the vibrating reed.>>
And the solid reed plate holding the entire reed line also shows that
wax and nails are not pertinent…in like manner. But the topic had to
do with the difference between wax and leather holding power…for the
accordion.
<<
What is the resonator in a Jew's Harp -- it is nothing but a
reed in a mounting frame which allows it to be held near the mouth
(the
frame against the teeth), and you can pluck the reed with your thumb.
If you are breathing through the reed at this time, you get a loud
sound. If you are not breathing through it there is very little
sound.
This limits the things involved to a minimum. >>
Not all instruments’ have resonator’s—that’s true…and the produced
‘sound’ is thin. I cannot see your comment’s any different than my
counter demo to your demonstration.
(snip)
The instrument is at its best when the *only* vibration is
that
of the reed, and the air which passes through it. It is unlike a
stringed instrument whose design is to couple the tiny vibration of
the
string to the air via a soundboard.
Enjoy,
DoN. >>
Coming from a concertina player whose instrument has that criterion, I
can accept your preference. However your company of ‘bests’ is pretty
limited.
Ventura
> Well, even if we suppose that a longer sustained vibration is not
> audible in itself: _if_ it is there, it means that the reed will respond
> better for a longer time when it _does_ get played again.
on a related note, the behavior of the largest reeds
in the bass section have a noticeable slowness in
attack on their own, but when a register that couples
a high reed is used, the small reed attacks almost
immediately, and the sympathetic vibrations are what
starts the larger reed, stimulating it to a quicker
attack than just the air is able to do.
tuned metal to metal sympathetic vibrations... for
more look to Tesla's experiments... he actually
caused quite a stir in his day with related experiments
ciao
Ventura
David Kastrup
> K wrote:
>> Well, even if we suppose that a longer sustained vibration is not
>> audible in itself: _if_ it is there, it means that the reed will respond
>> better for a longer time when it _does_ get played again.
>
> on a related note, the behavior of the largest reeds
> in the bass section have a noticeable slowness in
> attack on their own, but when a register that couples
> a high reed is used, the small reed attacks almost
> immediately, and the sympathetic vibrations are what
> starts the larger reed, stimulating it to a quicker
> attack than just the air is able to do.
I have heard that helicon basses do that: reed plates integrating both
the sympathetic helper in the higher octave as well as the actual low
octave.