Stupidity
Ike Milligan
remarkable, becomes more and more obvious. In relation to accordions, it is
asking dumb questions about brands. If I find a sick cow and brand it
"Bar-S"would you buy it, just because you heard that "Bar-S" was a good cow?
If I set up a storefront or website and sell sick "Bar-S" cows, would you
buy them? Why this obsession with brands?
David Kastrup
Because some brands like "Goldstar" or "Gedo" or similar definitely
limit you in the quality you may possible get. And a 2009 Weltmeister,
for example, means production in East Germany. Like it did in 1980.
But then it meant a quite different range on the scale of available
qualities. Nowadays it is an asset.
Unfortunately, the large Italian manufacturers unification make many
Italian brands freely attachable to a lot of instruments depending on
marketing requirements. And "Hohner" has extended the range in
qualities it covers downwards due to Chinese production.
--
David Kastrup
Ike Milligan
"David Kastrup" <d...@gnu.org> wrote in message
news:87ljkgz...@lola.goethe.zz...
"some brands limit the quality" This is a European perspective. You in
Europe understand the difference between a good and bad accordion, not least
because you have much greater opportunites to compare. in America, people
run to the internet, lacking local resources Then they ask a lot of dumb
questions, that is, dumb to those of us with experience. There is no
shortage of accordions with airly good reeds that are derelict from neglect.
If someone finds a repairer, chances are that repairer is doing about as
much harm as good, and that the result will be minimally good if at all.
The Italians ship absolute junk over here with the old popular brand names,
since they can get away with selling garbage to stupid Americans, who are
not necessarily really stupid, but if you eat nothing but camel manure all
your life, you would know hundreds of recipes for it.
Jerry
wrote:
Wow Ike, pretty derogatory statements. Not everyone is as
knowledgeable as you about accordions. I’ve only used Excelsior and
Giulietti brands and I have an opportunity to purchase a brand that
I’m not familiar with so I thought I’d ask about it. And, the answer I
get, from a real accordion expert, is that I’m stupid for asking?
With the lack of accordion information resources here in the U.S., we
look to people like you for help so that we can avoid the ‘junk’ that
is being sent from Europe and Asia. The fact that I may be stupid is
another issue. Where would you suggest I should take my dumb question
about a brand if those of you with all that experience express
condescension to info seekers and their dumb questions.
Ciao,
Jerry
Ike Milligan
"Jerry" <musicwi...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:cb0c2b92-e963-4bae...@e18g2000vbe.googlegroups.com...
knowledgeable as you about accordions. I�ve only used Excelsior and
Giulietti brands and I have an opportunity to purchase a brand that
I�m not familiar with so I thought I�d ask about it. And, the answer I
get, from a real accordion expert, is that I�m stupid for asking?
With the lack of accordion information resources here in the U.S., we
look to people like you for help so that we can avoid the �junk� that
is being sent from Europe and Asia. The fact that I may be stupid is
another issue. Where would you suggest I should take my dumb question
about a brand if those of you with all that experience express
condescension to info seekers and their dumb questions.
Ciao,
Jerry
(IKE)
Jerry, you did not attach your original question, and now you are saying
this answer is derogatory to you.
i don't mean to personally insult anyone. Brands no longer mean what they
once did. If you want to avoid junk, then test everything out before you
commit funds to it permanently, if you are buying things kept in stock. If
you want to order a custom made job. then dopn't take what a dealer has in
stock, and be careful who you deal with. I won't mention any names, but they
are ubiquitous. And if you want to criticize my respnse to a pst, please
include the original post, so I can apologize properlly. Otherwise I will
have to consider you just another arrogant snot.
Iam
Jerry - thanks and I agree with everything you said. Regarding Ike, I
think the first sentence of his initial post says it all -
David Kastrup
> i don't mean to personally insult anyone. Brands no longer mean what
> they once did. If you want to avoid junk, then test everything out
> before you commit funds to it permanently, if you are buying things
> kept in stock.
That's good advice even if we are talking about reliable brands/models.
For example, store an accordion lying down for a few years, and half of
the non-foil valves (leather or similar material) are bent open from
their own weight. Store it "on its feet", and this problem still
affects half of the in-cassotto valves (if any). The best storage
position is "playing position".
Of course, storage temperature and humidity also affect an instrument.
--
David Kastrup
Ike Milligan
And not only that. But what I am protesting against is this obsession with
brands. you are being conditioned thrhoug ubiquitous advertising to believe
in brands. Politicians and to a lesser extent, parties are brands.
Everything is being run by brands sucking money out of the economy. And
brands give you much less value than non-brands. Brands have a negative
value to the consumer.
There may have been a time when brands were a signpost on the way to value.
This was about 2 generations ago. Now brands are moved from company to
company like whores. So products are simply rebranded and sold under
whatever name sucks in the most consumers.
So now we are getting questions from people who have been hypnotised by the
brand religion.
The fact is, people who need and understand good accordions have exactly the
accordion they deserve. Wanna-bes are trying to figure it out from brands.
David Kastrup
> And not only that. But what I am protesting against is this obsession
> with brands. you are being conditioned thrhoug ubiquitous advertising
> to believe in brands.
Hm, I am more obsessed with brand/model/year combinations. I have a
tendency to end up with instruments older than myself.
> Politicians and to a lesser extent, parties are brands. Everything is
> being run by brands sucking money out of the economy. And brands give
> you much less value than non-brands. Brands have a negative value to
> the consumer. There may have been a time when brands were a signpost
> on the way to value. This was about 2 generations ago. Now brands are
> moved from company to company like whores.
Uh, company whores?
[...]
> The fact is, people who need and understand good accordions have
> exactly the accordion they deserve. Wanna-bes are trying to figure it
> out from brands.
Which is the whole point of brands. Wanna-bes can ask people who have
sampled a reasonable number of branded instruments about their
experiences.
--
David Kastrup
Alan Sharkis
it, but let's not get carried away. You made your point.
There was a time when you could easily travel to several sources of
accordions in one day, and, regardless of brand, try several and bring
home the one you loved -- not one of the same model from the stock
room, but the exact one you tried.
In those days, too, there were many accordion teachers who actually
performed on that instrument. They could guide their students about
instrument selection. Today, more often than not, a person who says
he can teach accordion has probably seldom picked one up and played
it.
But times have changed. There isn't a source of accordions, dealer or
private seller, on every corner any more. Internet sales,
sight-unseen, have taken over. Brand, which used to be a rough guide
to quality and/or tonal characteristics, counts for less and less each
year.
Given that situation, young people are again beginning to be curious
about accordions and desirous of learning to play them. What are they
supposed to adopt as a selection process? Their parents will tell
them "brand," and I think we all agree that such a suggestion is no
longer valid. So, given the situation as it exists today, especially
in the United States, what is a valid set of criteria for selecting an
accordion, especially for those young beginners?
Take care.
Alan
--
If you really want to bug me via email, remove the "_fish" from the address above.
__
You can read the FAQ for alt.binaries.karaoke at:
http://members.chello.nl/~j.a.komrij/faq.html
Ike Milligan
"Alan Sharkis" <cartilagi...@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:fh6kb5hrltr6in1q1...@4ax.com...
Take care.
Alan
(IKE)
Mostly very well said and the rest mostly pretty well said.
I do get questions every day about accordions, form all over, through my
website.
Many of the questions are about an accordion someone bought or found, with a
logo or name, and they want to know if it is a good make. Many of them are
names you would never have heard of, not representing a particular factory
or maker. I usually ask for a photo, and it more often than not turns out to
be a starter 120 bass with 2 sets of octave-tuned treble reeds.
This is the sort of accordion a young person just starting out should begin
with. The main problem is the fact that most these were made in the 1960's
to early 1970's and are in rather bad shape, since the reed work as you must
know, is perishable. In the present market this accordion in playable
condition is worth at most a few hundred dollars, but to do the reed work
right, takes about 10 hours or more.
This reed configuration BTW is not made any more. Now all the new beginner
accordions have 2 sets musette. The reeds in the new accordions are nowhere
near as good as in the old accordions, and they are very expensive or else
very poor Chinese mechanical quality. Even the Hohner Bravo Chinese-made,
which is better than other Chinese (but the Hohnica is no better) is poorer
quality than the old student 120's.
So a person has to be lucky to find a good used accordion to start out on.
Now the main Italian manufacturers have betrayed the traditions, and the old
brands mean nothing at all. The main German brands, Hohner was mentioned
already, and Weltmeister seems to be European made, but in the latter case,
the design and construction are only a little better than the Chinese. The
reeds have been better, but the mechinical desgin is rather bad, but even
so, more functional or at least as functional as the Hohner Bravo made in
China.
Now what you will see, is that the worst makers will be the first to perish.
The Chinese makers will exist as Zombies for a while as they are supported
by the State. In their zombie existence, they may bgin to evolve to better
quality or just lose market share.
Meanwhile, the Europeans will mostly try to compete with the unfair Chinese
competition by cutting expense and quality.
At the same time fewer and fewer used accordions will bew found to be
playable due to aging, although these were originally much better than what
is readily available new. People will be finding that junk and asking me
how to fix it, or asking that I fix it, and I will mostly refuse. The reason
is, that I am beginning to dislike everyone because I think everyone is
stupid, but seriously, I haven't got time to mess with it.
Ike Milligan
"Iam" <jtb...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:24141d6c-3a4f-4556...@j19g2000vbp.googlegroups.com...
> Giulietti brands and I have an opportunity to purchase a brand that
> get, from a real accordion expert, is that I�m stupid for asking?
> With the lack of accordion information resources here in the U.S., we
> is being sent from Europe and Asia. The fact that I may be stupid is
> another issue. Where would you suggest I should take my dumb question
> about a brand if those of you with all that experience express
> condescension to info seekers and their dumb questions.
> Ciao,
> Jerry
Jerry - thanks and I agree with everything you said. Regarding Ike, I
think the first sentence of his initial post says it all -
(IKE) i never said anyone was stupid for asking. The subject line is
"Stupidity", however. What could be characterized as stupid is, not
uderstanding the answer and contiunuing to insist that brand-names are
meaningful. The well-known brand-names are meaningless, simply because being
well know, they were bought by profiteers to put onto inferior accordions.
It is not possible to mass-produce good accordions at the foreseeable state
of human knowledge, except maybe reedless ones.
As for the lesser-known brands, to get value from one of those, you have to
insist on certain quaility features, and verify those before the purchase.
If you are not knowledgeable, you will have to depend on luck and merciful;
Providence, since obviously (to me) you don't know whom to trust. If you did
know how to get a good accordion, you would have one already instead of
complaining about my "attitude".
Iam
wrote:
> > Giulietti brands and I have an opportunity to purchase a brand that
> > get, from a real accordion expert, is that I’m stupid for asking?
> > With the lack of accordion information resources here in the U.S., we
> > is being sent from Europe and Asia. The fact that I may be stupid is
> > another issue. Where would you suggest I should take my dumb question
> > about a brand if those of you with all that experience express
> > condescension to info seekers and their dumb questions.
> > Ciao,
> > Jerry
>
> Jerry - thanks and I agree with everything you said. Regarding Ike, I
> think the first sentence of his initial post says it all -
>
> (IKE) i never said anyone was stupid for asking. The subject line is
> "Stupidity", however. What could be characterized as stupid is, not
> uderstanding the answer and contiunuing to insist that brand-names are
> meaningful. The well-known brand-names are meaningless, simply because being
> well know, they were bought by profiteers to put onto inferior accordions.
> It is not possible to mass-produce good accordions at the foreseeable state
> of human knowledge, except maybe reedless ones.
> As for the lesser-known brands, to get value from one of those, you have to
> insist on certain quaility features, and verify those before the purchase.
> If you are not knowledgeable, you will have to depend on luck and merciful;
> Providence, since obviously (to me) you don't know whom to trust. If you did
> know how to get a good accordion, you would have one already instead of
> complaining about my "attitude".
Ike, I have 3 accordions; an Italo American, a Giulietti and a Paolo
Soprani. The first two are gems, the Soprani has seen better days and
is of a vintage when they weren't made very well and the quality was
not so great. I've done a ton of research, asked a lot of questions of
a lot of people, gotten a lot of good feedback and some responses from
the likes of you. I am not stupid, ignorant or inexperienced. Brand is
STILL a valid part of selection. You can be helpful when you try. Keep
trying.
Iam
David Kastrup
> It is not possible to mass-produce good accordions at the foreseeable
> state of human knowledge, except maybe reedless ones.
Uh, Hohner mass-produced good accordions in the 50s and 60s.
--
David Kastrup
Alan Sharkis
reedless instruments does vary somewhat. Almost all of those produced
at present use real bellows, and those are, for the most part, still
made in the same way as traditional acoustic accordion bellows.
On the other hand, it's possible to cast the shell parts of a reedless
accordion out of some kind of resin rather than to build them out of
wood in the traditional manner, and there are examples of both
approaches. Treble mechanisms and bass machines can be of the
traditional design, built in the traditional way, or may be very
different. What's interesting to me is that reedless instruments,
more often than not, have a painted, rather than a celluloid finish,
which cuts down on the amount of hand labor required.
Reedless instruments do need some kind of sensors to trigger the
sound-generation circuits when a key or button is depressed, and in
many reedless instruments the approach to that is the same as would be
used to install midi in an acoustic instrument -- mount the detectors
or their triggering devices on the key rods or pallets on the treble
side and on the pallets on the bass side. There's some hand adjusting
needed for that approach. For example, my Ciao reedless uses magnets
on the ends of the key rods where pallets would ordinarily be, and
those magnets trigger sensors that are in fixed positions near where a
moving magnet will trigger them. The sensors are mounted on a printed
circuit board by their leads, which have to be bent ever so slightly
if a note doesn't sound when its associated key is depressed or if it
sounds continuously (NOT a typical mechanical "stuck note" situation.)
My dealer showed me how to do that, stating that those adjustments are
common when an instrument is moved or bumped a lot, but, at least
until now, I've never had to it. He also stated that the sensor leads
can only be bent two or three times before they break, necessitating
replacement of the sensor. I wonder how often there's a need to
replace sensors in the factory in an instrument under construction!
Other reedless instruments rely on keyboard switches that are similar
to those used in electronic keyboards. Those give the instrument the
capabilities of velocity-sensitivity and/or aftertouch. In those
cases, the keyboard is usually a sub-assembly that has been
mass-produced.
Of course, the rest of the electronics (sound generation,
amplification, control panels, etc., and the necessary cables,
external modules, and, in some cases, wireless midi transmitters and
receivers are usually mass-produced.
So, just like with acoustic accordion manufacturers, reedless
accordion manufacturers will vary in the amount of mass-production
that goes into their products, but they are never 100% mass-produced
or 100% entirely hand-made.
Take care.
Alan
>> knowledgeable as you about accordions. I’ve only used Excelsior and
>> Giulietti brands and I have an opportunity to purchase a brand that
>> I’m not familiar with so I thought I’d ask about it. And, the answer I
>> get, from a real accordion expert, is that I’m stupid for asking?
>> With the lack of accordion information resources here in the U.S., we
>> look to people like you for help so that we can avoid the ‘junk’ that
>> is being sent from Europe and Asia. The fact that I may be stupid is
>> another issue. Where would you suggest I should take my dumb question
>> about a brand if those of you with all that experience express
>> condescension to info seekers and their dumb questions.
>> Ciao,
>> Jerry
>
>Jerry - thanks and I agree with everything you said. Regarding Ike, I
>think the first sentence of his initial post says it all -
>
>(IKE) i never said anyone was stupid for asking. The subject line is
>"Stupidity", however. What could be characterized as stupid is, not
>uderstanding the answer and contiunuing to insist that brand-names are
>meaningful. The well-known brand-names are meaningless, simply because being
>well know, they were bought by profiteers to put onto inferior accordions.
>It is not possible to mass-produce good accordions at the foreseeable state
>of human knowledge, except maybe reedless ones.
>As for the lesser-known brands, to get value from one of those, you have to
>insist on certain quaility features, and verify those before the purchase.
>If you are not knowledgeable, you will have to depend on luck and merciful;
>Providence, since obviously (to me) you don't know whom to trust. If you did
>know how to get a good accordion, you would have one already instead of
>complaining about my "attitude".
Ike Milligan
I have worked on the Hohner accordions and I know. The parts wear out and
can't be purchased, whereas if they had been made in the old way, the fancy
designed parts could be replaced. Now if you are speaking of the ones
without the modular "bubble" switch mechanisms, decent reeds, and keyboards
pivoting on a spindle, yes, those were very good, even though the key
spindles are difficult to remove, sometime impossible. But if you are
referring to the ones made after that, with the fancy mechanical designs,
these are not so good. Not worht restoring, as the time involved does not
create enough value.
The impossibility of mass-producing good accordions at the present state of
human knowledge, is based on the economic and social considerations. The
state of human knowledge theoretically would allow producing good
accordions. but not mass-production. And the economic and social situation
is deteriorating, so that producing them by older methods is getting more
problematic. Producing a good accordion is a community effort.
Ike Milligan
> > Giulietti brands and I have an opportunity to purchase a brand that
> > get, from a real accordion expert, is that I�m stupid for asking?
> > With the lack of accordion information resources here in the U.S., we
Iam
(IKE)
You are taking everything personally. Anyway I am not trying to be helpful,
only informative in a general way. i am not a philanthropist.
Ike Milligan
>Actually, Ike, the amount of what might be called mass production in
reedless instruments does vary somewhat. Almost all of those produced
at present use real bellows, and those are, for the most part, still
made in the same way as traditional acoustic accordion bellows.
( IKE)
Of course you must know it takes more than "real bellows".
>On the other hand, it's possible to cast the shell parts of a reedless
accordion out of some kind of resin rather than to build them out of
wood in the traditional manner, and there are examples of both
approaches.
(IKE) And non-reedles accordions are being made with plastic bellows frames,
that copme unglued regularly, and cast casings and reed blocks, like
Weltmeister and others .
Treble mechanisms and bass machines can be of the
traditional design, built in the traditional way, or may be very
different. What's interesting to me is that reedless instruments,
more often than not, have a painted, rather than a celluloid finish,
which cuts down on the amount of hand labor required.
(IKE) This to me is uninteresting. What reduces the amount of hand labor, is
making the keyboards from stamped metal, the reed blocks and casing from
plastic, and the switch interfaces from non-repairable modules. Plus low
quality of reeds.
>Reedless instruments do need some kind of sensors to trigger the
sound-generation circuits when a key or button is depressed, and in
many reedless instruments the approach to that is the same as would be
used to install midi in an acoustic instrument --
<...>
(IKE)
The rest was about reedless instruments, which are just electronic organs in
the shape of an accordion. That's fine, for those who want it. I am not
interested in those details, as I mostly deal with vintage acoustic
accordions.